Healthy Wealthy & Smart

In this episode, Director of Rehabilitation at OL Reign, Dr. Nicole Surdyka, talks about on-field rehab after ACL injury. Nicole is currently the Director of Rehabilitation at OL Reign, one of the founding clubs of the National Women's Soccer League, NWSL, which is one of the best professional women's soccer leagues in the world. Today, Nicole shares her 5-phase on-field rehab strategy, and the decision-making process in return-to-play and return-to-performance. What are the criteria that Nicole looks at to determine progress to the next phase of rehab? She tells us about delaying return to sport to reduce second-injury risk, the return to sport continuum and how to define it, and the use of the StARRT framework for the return-to-sport decision-making. Nicole gives some valuable advice to her younger self, she tells us about integrating rehab with team activities, and communicating with athletes and coaches, all on today's episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways Nicole implements on-field rehab in 5 phases. Phase 1: Simple, pre-planned, linear movements. The focus is on quality of movement and cleaning up movement technique before moving on. Typically includes walking marches, walking lunges, side shuffles, and jogging. Nicole starts this at 70-75 quad strength limb symmetry index. Phase 2: Pre-planned direction-changing movements. Typically includes accelerations, decelerations, sprinting, and change direction. Phase 3: Adding reactive tasks without a soccer ball. Direction-changing with an element of reacting to an external event. Nicole starts this with at least 80% quad strength limb symmetry index. Phase 4: Soccer-specific movements. The reactions are done in context – with a soccer ball. Phase 5: This phase should look like a modified training session. Delaying return to sport: each month that you delay that, there's a 51% reduction in second-injury risk, up until the 9-month mark. Return-to-participation: When athletes are participating in their sport in a modified way – participation with certain limitations on activities. Return-to-sport: When there is no longer any medical reason to limit an athlete's participation – "cleared to play". Return-to-performance: There are no restrictions and athletes are training to become better at their sport. "Be patient. Every experience is valuable, and you can relate any experience to what you eventually end up doing."   Suggested Keywords On-field Rehabilitation, StARRT, Injuries, ACL, Sport, Performance, Physiotherapy, PT, Therapy, Wellness, Health, Injury-Prevention, Recovery,   Recommended reading: Consensus statement on return to sport: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27226389/ On-field rehabilitation Part 1: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31291553/ On-field rehabilitation Part 2: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31291556/   More about Dr. Surdyka:  Nicole is currently the Director of Rehabilitation at OL Reign, one of the founding clubs of the National Women's Soccer League, NWSL, which is one of the best professional women's soccer leagues in the world. Nicole is a physical therapist and strength and conditioning coach. She played Division 1 college soccer at St. John's University and then went to Emory University where she got her Doctor of Physical Therapy Degree. Throughout college and PT school, Nicole coached youth soccer and worked as a personal trainer. After PT, school Nicole worked in various outpatient orthopaedic and sports medicine clinics before starting her own practice in 2018 where she worked with youth to professional athletes. Nicole specializes in on-field rehab for soccer players to help bridge the gap between rehab and sport performance. She is passionate about the return to sport process and how we can make better decisions for athletes returning to sport after an injury. Nicole has a website where she writes blog posts on rehab for soccer players, has eBooks available on specific injuries, teaches continuing education courses, and has presented at CSM and other national and international sports medicine conferences. To learn more, follow Nicole at: Website:          Nicole Surdyka Physio Facebook:       Nicole Surdyka Physio Instagram:       @dr.nicolept LinkedIn:         Nicole Surdyka PT Twitter:            @NSurdykaPhysio YouTube:        Nicole Surdyka   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:               https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the transcript here:  Speaker 1 (00:00): Hey, Nicole, welcome to the podcast. I am so excited to have you on. Speaker 2 (00:05): Thanks. I'm excited to be on. Speaker 1 (00:07): So this whole month we're talking about ACL injury and ACL rehab, and you are an expert in both. So I'm really excited to have you as one of the guests this month. And today we're going to be talking about something that is really your zone of genius, and that is the on-field rehab, a rehab techniques, I guess, that helped to bring that player back to performance. So can you talk about what is the on field rehab like? Speaker 2 (00:45): Yeah. So I guess it's a concept that I, you know, I was a soccer player. I was a youth soccer coach, and so I always kind of felt in the back of my mind when I was going through PT school, like, Oh, wow, I could blend. Like, if, if we're trying to get this adaptation or build up this physical attribute, we could do that through soccer. And so it just made, it was something that made sense to me trying to incorporate the sport as much as possible, but where it really all clicked and came together. For me, it was actually at the isokinetic conference that I went to a few years ago in Barcelona. And actually your previous guest on this in Arundale was the one who talked me into going. So that was great. And I saw a presentation by Matt Thorpe about on-field rehab. And of course he and Francesco via have published two different articles in WSPT on this, but kind of seeing that presentation really yeah, tied it all Speaker 1 (01:42): Together and made me have that aha moment Speaker 2 (01:44): Like, Oh, this is a thing I can make this happen. And so really what it is is it helps to bridge that gap between the gym-based rehab and then sending the athlete back for their sport. Because if you think about it, there's so much of a difference between doing a drop vertical jump in the gym and then landing from a head ball on the field. Like not even just physically that's different because the surface is different. Your shoe wear is different. The weather obviously is different, but there's also different things in your environment to make decisions based off of, and react to and respond to. So where are my teammates in space? Where is my opponent? Am I going to have a contact or an indirect contact, a perturbation while I'm in the air that I have to land on? Funny, where do I have to redirect my Ron to afterwards? Speaker 2 (02:34): And you can only prep for that so much in the gym. And at some point you really need to get them on the field and do in a controlled way, what they're going to have to do when they're playing with their team again. So on-field rehab. The way that I implement it is really based off of Matt, Matt backdoor, Ben for Jessica, Davey is research and there are papers on it, which is phase one, really simple pre-planned linear movements. And so that can start fairly early. They say in their paper that they want to start. When the athlete has 80% quad strength, limb symmetry index, I tend to start a little bit earlier than that. Typically, when I'm having athletes jog, then they can be doing phase one. So things like walking marches, walking lunges side shuffling is okay in this phase, jogging anything that the athlete is has pre-planned, it's a pre-planned movement and it's just linear. Speaker 2 (03:34): So no changes of direction yet. And in this phase, we really focus on quality of movement. And we start to address here before they move on to more complex tasks we address are they moving efficiently? And are there things we need to clean up with the technique of their movement? So something like a high skip or a walking March, are they getting a lot of trunk lean? Are they yeah. Are they kind of like looking like Gumby out there? And so we need to clean that up a little bit, and this is the phase that we can really take the time to do that. So again, I like to start this pretty early. Typically I want them to be at least 70 to 75% quad strength, limb symmetry index. But the, just as a caveat to that, the paper by Francesco and met, like they're up says 80%. Speaker 2 (04:27): So just be aware of that phase two, they then move on to being able to change direction. Everything is still pre-planned. So we can take those linear movements from phase one and make them a little bit more intense. So we can start working on reaching towards accelerations decelerations, maximum speed. So we start to work on sprinting here and exposing them to high-speed running on the multi-directional staff. We can have them do anything pre-planned so no reactive tasks yet, but they can start to cut decelerate, changed direction, all controlled everything throughout the unfilled rehab program is control first. Then we build volume and intensity. So after phase two, we can progress them to phase three. Now for this, I definitely want them to be at least 80% quad strength, limb symmetry index. And I would love for them even to be closer to 85% and depending on how they look functionally. Speaker 2 (05:29): And so this is when we start to add reactive tasks. So now change of direction tasks, but with a reactive component. So they're reacting to something external to them. So I like to mix up and I know Amy talks about internal versus external cues a little bit. And it's something that definitely is coming up a lot in ACL research with motor learning is that we want some external cues. And so that can be auditory. That can be visual. So I like to do kind of a combination of both. I'll use words that they're going to hear while they're on the field. So turn man on ball, you know, I'll use kind of those that verbiage. And then the visual is you can make it just simple. You pointing to where they have to cut to or change direction to. You can make it be, they have to follow the ball, they have to follow a runner. Speaker 2 (06:25): So they have to follow where the space is that you've set up with, however, you've set up the environment. So that's where we add the reactive components and they anything pre-planned they can now be doing at speed. Next, we're going to go into phase four, which is really going to be more soccer, specific movements. So now they can react with a soccer ball. So everything we didn't base three with the reactive movements is them without a ball at their feet. Now in phase four, we can add a soccer ball. So you have to turn and either dribble, dribble, or pass, or you know, you have to collect the ball and then make a decision based on what's going on around you or what the coach or the physio calls out. And then phase five really should just look like a training session, a modified training session. So I try to replicate what the team has done in their training session or what a typical team training session would look like as much as I possibly can within a more controlled environment. So that's kind of the five phases and then, yeah, and then I started to incorporate them into the team. Okay. Speaker 1 (07:32): So let's, I have a couple of questions. So we're just going to back up a little bit. So for most of these phases, certainly phase one phase two phase three is the player is the player alone on the field? Do they, are they working in tandem with another player on their team? Speaker 2 (07:50): So typically when I was, before I had my current role, I had my own practice and I would work with the athletes. So it would be me and the athlete. If they had a friend or a teammate who was available, it's always nice to add other players. Now here at LL rain. I have two athletes right now who are going through ACL rehab together, kind of they're at a little bit different spots, but I can still work together with them, which is really nice. And then I can always pull some of the other players. So, Hey, do you want to work on crossing and finishing today? Great, like come in for this session this time and I can pull other players and you can do it alone. Eventually you need to start adding other players because there's 22 people on a soccer field. And so they need to start being able to move and react to all of those different people on the field, around them. And you can still do that in a controlled fashion. Absolutely. Speaker 1 (08:51): I will say to, to play or one, I want you to run down to line and cut to the right as your athlete is within the midst of whatever you're asking them to do from a rehab standpoint. Correct. Speaker 2 (09:03): Exactly. You can say, okay, you're going to run up and defend them. I want you to force them to their right. You know, so that way I have that person has to go to their right, so you can control for it. Whereas in a game you can't tell them, or an even in a practice session with their team, you can't say to all the other players on the field, Hey, when you go and defend, so-and-so only for, for her to her right foot, okay. That's never going to happen, but in that nice in on-field rehab, you can control for those things. And Speaker 1 (09:31): The other question I have was what is the criteria for entering phase two? Speaker 2 (09:35): Good. So, and answering into any onto three high program. I mentioned the quad strength, limb symmetry index, but also there should be no joint pain or a fusion. They can have some muscle soreness at times if they had a patella tendon graft they can have some patella tendon pain. I'm okay with that. Hamstring graft, if they have hamstring pain, I'm okay with that. But, and then also no joint laxity. So I'll typically just do a Lockman's anterior drawer test, as long as those are negative and there's no joint fusion, then we're good to go. Now it's progressed through each stage, subsequent to that, as long as they're able to do those movements with control, and there's no increase in joint pain or a fusion during any of those stages, then I can progress them. Although I still want to bear in mind, like we're not just going to do walk like phase one stuff. Speaker 2 (10:27): And then it's like, Oh, they felt good. Okay. Now we can do phase two. Like I still want to make sure that we get a couple sessions in and it's always going to play back into the overall big picture of where they're at in their rehab. You know, we're still doing a gym-based strength program at the same time that we're complementing with on-field rehab. So it that's where it kind of the the art of coaching takes in a little bit. And you just need to understand where your athlete is and if they still need more time in that area before moving on. Got it. And Speaker 1 (10:59): I know this is a question that a lot of people constantly ask when it comes to ACL, what is the timeline? Right. You know, cause you're always here. You don't want to return to play for a year for 10 months, nine months, a year, two years. So as you are going through these phases, are you also taking into account where they are in that rehab continuum or in, you know, post-surgical so how do you question Speaker 2 (11:26): W so it's kind of the, the short answer to that question is we can go back to some of the research that's been done by the Delaware Oslo cohort, so that, Hey, grandam over at Oslo and Lynn center Mackler at Delaware, and they've shown that delaying return to sport each month that you delay that there's a 51% reduction in second injury risk. And really the whole thing of this is when we're sending out fleets back to sport after an ACL reconstruction, our goal is to not allow that to happen again, right? The rate of a secondary injury is so high that there's obviously a flaw in how we're sending athletes back. So I think that most athletes go back too soon. And so each month that we delay up until the nine month Mark and at nine months, we, after that, we don't really see that level of reduction in, in, in second injury risk. Speaker 2 (12:22): Now for a youth player, who's not really in a rush to get back. I will probably never let them go back before a year. I just, there was no reason it's not worth the risk. They're agreed so much more likely to have another injury. And like, why have two ACL injuries in high school before you even get to college? Right. If the goal is to, is to play in college, you're better off missing your entire junior year of high school to just rehab and then be really strong for your senior year. As opposed to feeling like, Oh, I have to show college coaches. I have to go to all these college showcase tournaments, which I know is, is pressure on the athletes, but what does it, do you any good if you go back and now you do it again and you miss all of senior year as well, right then by college, like that's not going to happen for you. Right. So more of the professional athletes, there's a little bit more pressure, it's their livelihood. Right. So I'm okay with moving or even college athletes. I'm okay with moving closer to nine months, but I will never go before that, unless I have somebody like an Adrian Peterson who is just one of those outliers, then they have to give me a really good reasons to let them go back. Speaker 1 (13:33): Okay. And this actually flows perfectly into the next topic I wanted to talk about. And that is that decision-making for return to performance, right? So we've got the return to play. And even if you want to talk a little bit about that distinction between return to play and return to performance and talk a little bit about what your your decision-making Speaker 2 (13:57): Is like. Yeah. So to talk about that continuum a little bit, and actually I just had a meeting with our coaching staff here about that to make sure you're on the same page about these definitions. And so how I define them is based off of the return to sport a consensus statement for that Claire and was lead author on where the return to participation phase is when, or end of the continuum is when athletes are participating in their sport, but in a modified way. So I have a couple athletes now who I say, I look at what the daily session plan is for, for the training session. And I'll say, okay, this athlete can do the technical warmup and they can do the [inaudible], but I don't want them doing the two V twos because it's too much deceleration cutting, et cetera. So they, that counts as returned to participation because they're participating, but I'm still putting restrictions or limitations on them. Speaker 2 (14:53): So anytime there's any kind of modification or restriction or limitation there in returned to participation, when the medical, when there are no longer any medical reasons to hold an athlete back, that's when they're in return to sport. So that's what I would define as saying like you're quote, unquote, clear to play, right? Is that I'm not putting any restriction on you, if you are not being selected for playing time or for your starting position. That's because the coach isn't selecting you, not because I'm holding you back, but then beyond that, because sometimes an athlete's not going to really be satisfied with that outcome, right? If you're used to being the starting center forward and scoring a goal, a game, and now you're cleared, but you're not being selected into the starting lineup, or you're not being selected to the game day roster, or you are, but you haven't scored a goal in five games. Speaker 2 (15:44): Now you're not performing at where you were prior to your injury. So there's no medical reason to hold you back, but maybe you're not playing as much or playing as well as you would like to be. And that's where we transition into return to performance. So return to performance is there's no restrictions on you, no medical limitations or anything holding, holding you back from a rehab perspective. And now we're training to get you to being better at your sport. And I think those are really important distinctions to make, because a lot of times athletes or coaches, and actually it will be back and cleared to play, but coaches like, well, why isn't she as fast as she used to be? Why isn't she scoring goals? Like she used to be? Is she still hurt? It's like, no, it medically fine, but we're just not at return to performance yet. Speaker 2 (16:33): So then to to kind of decide when to send an athlete back for each of those things, I tend to look back to the on-field rehab program and how that is structured. So I'm a big fan of integrating the team, the athlete into team activities as often, and as much as you possibly can. So if they're able to do the technical warmup with the team, I'm putting them in there because, and that would technique that would typically be if they're in stage two, right. Cause it's going to be mostly pre-planned change of direction tasks, maybe some accelerations D cells, depending on, on what the warmup looks like. Sometimes there's reactive components. And so that sometimes takes just a conversation with the performance director or the SNC coach or the sport coaches, just to say, what is involved in this? And then, you know, but if you, if that athlete is able to do those things and they've done them with you and an on-field rehab program, send them back into the team. Speaker 2 (17:33): Cause that is just to me is another level of like the cognitive awareness and their ability to see what's going on on the field, around them and adding more athletes into the mix that they have to interact with. So I'm a big fan of that. So I'll typically have them in that return to participation phase for a fairly long time, like a few months before I say, okay, you're good. So, and the example right now, I have an athlete, who's doing portions of training sessions, but I probably won't like clear her quote unquote, clear her to play in a game until somewhere in the middle of April. Right. So she'll be, Speaker 1 (18:16): Is she about like six months then? Post ACL? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I think it's important to mention all of this because oftentimes a lot of physical therapists and I, this is not to throw our profession under the bus or anything, but a lot of physical therapists tend to be a little bit more restrained. They won't want them to go onto field. They won't want them to do this on-field rehab until they're at 90%. Right. And or until the doctor clears them to return to play well, you can't just be cleared to return to play. And you've only done a weight training program, proprioception, maybe some motor control stuff and then throw somebody on a field. Speaker 2 (18:56): Yeah. And I've seen that way too often. Speaker 1 (18:59): Yeah. Yeah. And so it's, I think that I'm really happy that you're saying like, Hey, you know, at six months they can be with the team, they can do some things. It just, it sounds to me like it's a lot of communication and collaboration from the, all of the stakeholders, right? Speaker 2 (19:14): It is, it does take a lot of communication. And we have twice a day meetings, constant emails, constant communication about where each athlete is. And then, you know, there is things that come up that we have to adapt to, like this was the training session plan. And this athlete was going to be able to do this amount of load that day. And then based on what was happening in the session, the plan changed. And so we have to adapt to that. And then we just supplement that with it with more on field work, you know, if they weren't able to do as much in the session with the team, then I just will take them to the side and do more work with them on the field. Now I will say that this is a lot easier to do in a team setting. And now I didn't work in a team setting for most, all of my career up until very recently. Speaker 2 (20:01): And so what I did in that situation, working in an outpatient clinic, that doesn't mean that this doesn't apply to you because you can still use this. And so what I used to do is whatever I would see my athlete do in the clinic with me or on the field with me, I would say, okay, I want you to go do this in practice with your team. So I want you to do the dynamic warmup with your team and then that's it. And then report back to me if that felt okay for them, then I'll say, okay, you can do any technical drill. You can do rondos, you can do, you know, possession style games but no contact. You can be neutral player. And I'll tell the athlete that depending on their age, I'll also tell their parents I do or did before I was in my current, always try to reach out to their club coach or their high school or college coach and let them know what the restrictions were. I understand sometimes we don't get responses when we reach out. I didn't always get responses when I reached out. But as long as you talk to the athlete and or their parent about that, and just make it very clear to them, like you can do this, you can not do that and then have them report back. But I, my rule of thumb was I wanted to see them do that type of activity with me before I had them do it with their team. Speaker 1 (21:18): Makes sense. And, and I think it's also important to note that just because you work in an outpatient clinic, doesn't mean you can't take these athletes onto a field. I live in New York city. I see patients in their home. I have a 14 year old who had a ACL rupture and subsequent surgery. And when she was 12 she's 14 now. Wow. Yeah. And we still got her out onto a field, got her. We went to the park, we did as much as we could on field. And sometimes that was just me having to be the defender or setting up cones and having her do stuff. But I think it's really important that if you work in an outpatient clinic, don't kind of wall yourself in with the walls literally. Yeah, exactly. You can take them out onto a field somewhere. I mean, if I feel like if I can do it in the middle of Manhattan, then people could probably have a much easier time doing it in places with more space. Speaker 2 (22:15): Yeah. And I would even get like, I've worked in clinics where the only space we had was the parking lot. And maybe that's where we did that. Or again, you can always say like, okay, I've, we've done the 11 plus warmup in our, in our gym based sessions. So you can go do that with your team now. Or we've done some volleying and passing and moving, you just need 10 yards of space. Right. We've done that in the clinic. So now I want you to try that with your team, or can you go in the backyard with your mom, dad, sister, brother, whomever, teammate, friend. And I want you to do these types of exercises in your backyard, you know, like have that be their AGP instead of having them do straight leg raises for six months. I mean, I have that either ETP. Speaker 1 (23:06): Yeah. I had my patient probably much, much to her. Neighbors' dismay, but we would be in the hallway of the building. Yeah. Or go into the basement of a building. I see a girl now for she's a softball pitcher. We go into an empty storefront. That's kind of attached to the building. I mean, you make it work, you know, you just have to Speaker 2 (23:29): Exactly. And like, if you can't find a way to make it work, you have to ask yourself, should I really be working with this type of athlete? Right. If you can't find a way to give the athlete what they need to get back safely and appropriately, then maybe that's not the setting, the athlete to be seeing you. Speaker 1 (23:47): Right. So it's you do the, I call it the blessing release. Oh yes. More, you need more space, you need XYZ. So I'm going to release you to someone that can, can finish the job if you will. Speaker 2 (24:01): Exactly. And that takes, like, I feel like in all walks of life, like just not having an ego is such an important skill set to have. And just saying, I know that there's so much more that can be done for you. And I know that there are too many limitations on me to be able to do this. So here's someone who can help you and you should move on to this person. Speaker 1 (24:22): Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's fair. And again, patient centered. And when you think about that return to sport, decision-making a lot of Claire, our Dern's work is that patient centered decision returned to sport decision-making. And so what you just said is exactly that. And so I think it's important for people listening that it may not always be you. Yes. That is such an important point. Yeah. Now, is there anything that we missed or that I glossed over that you're like, Oh man, I really wanted to make this point. Did we hit everything? Yeah. We hit everything. Speaker 2 (24:57): The only thing I would add is just as something for people to maybe go look up and learn more about is in that consensus statement, they talk about the start framework and that's what I use to guide my return to sport. Decision-Making right. So it's really just a simple needs analysis. What are the demands that this athlete is going to have to face and are they prepared for those? And yeah. So the start framework is a really great method. It's what it's literally what I use to help guide decision-making because it doesn't just look at, like, it looks at the tissue health, it looks at the demands. It also looks at what are some modifiers of those. So is it preseason? And so we can err on the side of being a little conservative or are we in the playoffs and this is one of our star athletes and we need them on the field. And so we're willing to take a little bit more risk. So yeah, I think that that's a really important framework to utilize because it provides you with that context that surrounds the kind of the risk reward ratio. Speaker 1 (25:59): Exactly. Yeah. And that's what I said to my, this 12 year old, who's now 14, but you know, she, we waited a year, at least a year for return to sport and then COVID hit and that night Oh yeah. Which I have to say, I wasn't mad about two years, you know, that's awesome. But you know, like what I told her was exactly what you she's like, Oh, do you think I can like play in this, you know, showcase she's an eighth grade. Yeah. No Roland showcase. And I was like, listen, here's the deal. Can you do this? Yes. Will you be at your best? No. Are you going to college? Is if this, what? And I said, it was like, if this was your senior year and it was the last game Speaker 2 (26:45): Sure. Have at it, you know, Speaker 1 (26:47): But it's not, so you're not going to do it. Are we in agreement there? And, and that's the hard part, right. Is trying to say to like a 12 or 13 was 13 or 14, 13 maybe was, do you want to play in high school? Yes. Would you like to play in college? Yes. Well then you don't need to do this exam because we're not taking any unnecessary risks and that's kind of, how did that start framework is looking at that context and I'm sure you have those difficult conversations all the time. Speaker 2 (27:15): All the time. Yeah. It, and especially after something like Nazi has already been cleared by a physician or previous physical therapist or athletic trainer or whomever, and then it's like, Oh no, I know that you were cleared, but we'll, you are certainly not ready. And just having that conversation can be difficult, but as super important, because all they're going to do is go right back. And the likelihood of them getting another ACL injury within the first year or two is pretty substantial. So sometimes scare tactics, work a little in that regard. Speaker 1 (27:46): And it's not, it's just, you're just being honest. Yeah. Like you can't like, you're the professional, you're the expert. They're the patient they're going to you because you're the expert. Yeah. Right. And so you have to be honest and you have to be upfront and you have to give them all of the options that they have and looking at things realistically, because just, you know, people say, Oh, runners, they just want to run. Well, it's the same with any sport soccer players. They just want to play soccer, football, I just want to play. And so there there's a lot of mental gymnastics that can happen in one's brains in order to justify doing that. Speaker 2 (28:21): Definitely. I think athletes actually appreciate that when you say like, like maybe in the moment they're frustrated, but it's not with you. It's just with the situation. And I think that makes it easier to swallow is that like, Hey, like they appreciate knowing that you're taking that context into consideration. Like, say like, Hey, if you're going to get re-injured, it's going to be in the championship game, not in a preseason friendly, like what sense does that make? And I think they do for the most part, appreciate that and understand it. Even if, again, in the moment it frustrates them a little bit. Yeah. Speaker 1 (28:51): I mean, there's a little bit of disappointment, but you know, something it's upsetting Speaker 2 (28:56): Templating moment. Get over it. You'll be fine. I feel the same. Exactly. I've never said that, but in my head I'm like, you'll be fine. You'll be to sign. Yeah. Like 10 years. That's fine. If you do it again and have to go through another year of this Speaker 1 (29:09): Exactly. Like 10 years from now, you're not going to be like, man, I didn't get to play in this showcase when I was in eighth grade. Speaker 2 (29:17): Yeah. Definitely not. It doesn't make sense. Speaker 1 (29:20): So I think thank you for bringing up that start framework and we'll try and get links to all of this and put them into the show notes so that everyone if you're looking for those papers on on-field rehab, the start framework and the consensus, we'll get all those and put them into the show notes. So you one click and everybody can read all of them. So Nicole, before we end our talk is the question I ask everyone. And that's knowing where you are now in life and career. What advice would you give to your younger self? Speaker 2 (29:51): I would definitely tell myself to be patient. I came out of school thinking like, okay, I just want to work with athletes. You know, I have to find a place where I can just do that. And anything else I do is a waste of time. And what I will say, what I would tell myself is that every experience is valuable and you can relate any experience to what you eventually ended up doing. Even working with a, you know, if it working with the elderly population that has nothing to do with working with athletes, but teaching them a new skill. If you can teach it an older person, who's never worked out a new skill, you can teach an athlete, a new skill, right. It's somebody who's like coordinated and strong and athletic as opposed to an older individual who's never worked out before. So I think that I would tell myself again, just be patient there's value in every experience and yeah, you'll, you'll eventually get to what you're looking for. Just take it, take things in stride and learn from each experience. Speaker 1 (30:56): Excellent advice. Now, where can people find you on social media? I think you've also got an ebook available. So give us all the goods. Speaker 2 (31:03): Yes. So you could to reach out to me. I'm I'm on social media. Instagram is at Dr. Nicole PT. My Twitter is at Encirca physio and my website is Nicole Serta, physio.com. I have a blog there that I grew up on this. I'm going to try to write more. I took a little hiatus. You had, Speaker 1 (31:28): I had a major change of life yourself from California to Portland and a new job. And so I think we, we understand we'll give you Speaker 2 (31:40): We're in the middle of a pandemic. So yeah, I think somewhere in the middle of the Vietnam, I just kind of lost a little motivation there Speaker 1 (31:48): With you all. Speaker 2 (31:51): Okay. It's okay. There's no need to like, feel guilty if you're in the same boat, cause I'm right there with you. But yeah, I will be writing more on that blog. I have actually a couple of different topics on the blog. One is just kind of rehab of soccer related injuries. And then I talk about some of the social issues related to soccer, things like racism and soccer and inclusion and diversity and things like that. And then also I have this little fun part. That's kind of just for me as a little self-indulgent, but life lessons that I've learned through soccer. And so that's on there as well. I also have some eBooks on my website. You can get to just by going and Nicole Serta, physio.com and it's under the eBooks tab. So on an ACL injuries, ankle injuries maybe hamstring injuries too. There's a couple on there now. Awesome. yeah, that's it. Excellent. Well, Nicole, Speaker 1 (32:42): Thank you so much. This was great. I great addition to our month on ACL injury and rehab. So I thank you very, very much. Thank you Speaker 2 (32:52): For having me on carrying this. When I graduated PT school, this is the first PT podcast I started listening to. So it's awesome to be on it. It's come full circle. It truly has. Yes. Speaker 1 (33:04): Well thank you and everyone. Thank you so much for listening. Have a great week and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.

Episode Summary In this episode physical therapist, biomechanist, and researcher,Dr. Amy Arundale talks about how to decrease the risk of ACL injury.  Amelia (Amy) Arundale, PT, PhD, DPT, SCS is a physical therapist and researcher.  Amy is transitioning to a new role as a physical therapist at Red Bull's Athlete Performance Center in Thalgua, Austria. Today, Amy tells us about injury-prevention programs, communicating with different stakeholders, and helping empower athletes through education. We also get to hear about her recent publication on Basketball, Sports medicine, and rehabilitation. How does motor-learning, creative thinking, and problem-solving relate to ACL injuries? Amy tells us about implementation and compliance with injury-prevention programs, internal versus external cues as they relate to injury prevention, and the gaps in the research, all on today's episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways "We've got great information. We know these programs can work, but for them to work, you have to do them." "You may be a physio, and you may have this injury-prevention knowledge, but you don't have to be there for this to happen. It's just as effective for you to run this program as it is for a coach or a parent to run it." "It's exciting to see where this next generation is going to be because I think we're going to have some athletes that are more empowered to know more about their body." "We need to be better at reporting our biases, looking at our subject populations, and funding and encouraging studies outside of 'the global North.'" Giving yourself the space and kindness to recognise that you don't know everything and make it a point to learn more is good therapy.   More about Amy:  Amelia (Amy) Arundale, PT, PhD, DPT, SCS is a physical therapist and researcher. Originally from Fairbanks, Alaska, she received her Bachelor's Degree with honors from Haverford College. Gaining both soccer playing and coaching experience throughout college, she spent a year as the William Penn Fellow and Head of Women's Football (soccer) at the Chigwell School, in London. Amy completed her DPT at Duke University and throughout gained experience working at multiple soccer clubs in the US and Norway. Amy applied this experience working at Balance Physical Therapy providing physical therapy for the Capitol Area Soccer Club (now North Carolina F.C. Youth) and the U23 Carolina Railhawks. In 2013, Amy moved to Newark, Delaware to pursue a PhD under Dr. Lynn Snyder-Mackler. Amy's dissertation examined primary and secondary ACL injury prevention as well as career length and return to performance in soccer players. After a short post-doc in Linköping, Sweden in 2017, Amy joined the Brooklyn Nets as a physical therapist and biomechanist as well as The Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai Health System as a visiting scientist. Currently, Amy is transitioning to a new role as a physical therapist at Red Bull's Athlete Performance Center in Thalgua, Austria. Outside of work, Amy plays Australian Rules Football for both the New York Magpies and US National Team.  Amy has also been involved in the APTA and AASPT, including serving as Director of the APTA's Student Assembly, a member of the APTA's Leadership Development Committee, chair of the AASPT's Membership Committee, and currently as a member of the AASPT Diversity and Inclusion Committee.   Suggested Keywords ACL, Injuries, Recovery, Injury-Prevention, Learning, Sports, Physiotherapy, Research, PT, Rehabilitation, Health, Therapy,   Recommended reading https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/54/21/1245     To learn more, follow Amy at: Instagram:       @squeakyedgar LinkedIn:         Amelia (Amy) Arudale Twitter:            @soccerPT11   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:  https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:      https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the Full Transcript Here:    Speaker 1 (00:07): Welcome to the healthy, wealthy, and smart podcast. Each week we interview the best and brightest in physical therapy, wellness, and entrepreneurship. We give you cutting edge information. You need to live your best life. Healthy, wealthy, and smart. The information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as personalized medical advice. And now here's your host, Dr. Karen Litzy. Speaker 2 (00:38): Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I am your host. Karen Lindsay, and today's episode is brought to you by net health net health therapy for private practices, a cloud-based all in one EMR solution for managing your practice. That's right. One piece of software that handles all of your scheduling documentation, billing and reporting needs. Plus a lot more in one super easy to use package. Right now, Neta health is offering a special deal for healthy, wealthy, and smart listeners. Complete a demo with the net health team and get $100 towards lunch for your staff. Visit net health.com/ [inaudible] to get started and get access to free resources for PTs like eBooks on demand, webinars, and business tools. Once again, that's net health.com/l I T Z Y my last name very, very easy now onto today's episode. So what we're doing with the podcast this month, and really every month going forward is we're going to have several guests that are all going to talk about one topic in various forums. Speaker 2 (01:40): This month, our topic is ACL injury and rehabilitation. And my first guest is not only an incredible physical therapist, a great researcher, but also a great friend of mine. That is Dr. Amelia, Aaron Dale, or Amy Arundale. So Amy is a physical therapist and researcher originally from Fairbanks, Alaska. She received her bachelor's degree with honors, from Haverford college, gaining both soccer, playing and coaching experience throughout college. She spent a year as the William Penn fellow and head of women's football at the Chigwell school in London. Amy completed her DPT at Duke university and throughout gained experience working at multiple soccer clubs in the U S and Norway. Amy applied this experience working at balanced physical therapy, providing physical therapy for the capital area soccer club. Now North Carolina FC youth, and the U 23 Carolina rail Hawks. In 2013, Amy moved to Newark Delaware to pursue a PhD under Dr. Speaker 2 (02:40): Lynn Snyder, Mackler Amy's dissertation examined primary and secondary ACL injury prevention, as well as career link and returned to performance in soccer players. After a short postdoc in Linkoping Sweden in 2017, Amy joined the Brooklyn nets as a physical therapist, the biomechanics as, as the Icahn school of medicine at Mount Sinai health system, as a visiting scientist, currently, Amy is transitioning to a new role as a physical therapist at red bull's athletic performance center in Austria, outside of work, Amy plays Australian rules football for both the New York magpies and us national team. She has also been involved in the AP TA in the AA S P T, which is the American Academy of sports physical therapy, including serving as director of AP TA student assembly, a member of the AP TA's leadership development committee, chair of the AASP membership committee, and currently as a member of the AASP T diversity and inclusion committee. Speaker 2 (03:37): So what do we talk about today? All about ACL's right. So we talk about injury prevention and risk mitigation programs, how they work, what the pros and cons are how collaboration is so necessary amongst all stakeholders and why exciting new research that includes motor learning principles, creative thinking, and problem solving, and are there gaps in the literature and what can we, as clinicians and as researchers do about those gaps in the research. Now, the other thing Amy has so generously done for our listeners is she is going to give away one copy of basketball, sports medicine in science. This is a book that she was involved in as an editor, and it is over 1000 pages. The book is massive, it's huge. And she's going to give a copy away to one lucky listener. So how do you win that copy? All you have to do is go to my Instagram page. My handle is at Karen Lindsey, and you will find out how to win a copy of basketball, sports, medicine, and science. Again, that's go to my Instagram page at Karen Lindsey, and we will give this book away to one lucky listener at the end of the month of February. So you have the whole month to sign up for this. So a huge thanks to Amy and everyone enjoyed today's episode. Speaker 3 (05:04): Hey, everybody, welcome back to the podcast. So this month we're going to be examining ACL injuries and ACL rehab. And my first guest this month to help take us through the ACL Mays is Dr. Amy Arundale. So Amy, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much. We're starting up at the beginning of the year with the A's with it. I didn't even think about that. Yes. But then next month we go right to running and just skip everything else in between. That's fine. Excellent. So Amy, before we get into sort of the meat of the episode, what I would love for you to do is tell the listeners a little bit more about some of your more current research projects, things like that. So I will hand it over to you. Sure. So I'm just finishing Speaker 4 (05:58): Up as a physical therapist and biomechanics at the Brooklyn nets. So I've been working clinically with them and then doing a little bit of kind of in-house research as well. And then on the side have been working on a few different projects. The biggest one right now is starting the revisions for the knee and ACL injury prevention me Andrew prevention, clinical practice guidelines. So those were originally published in [inaudible] in 2018 and clinical practice guidelines get revised every three years. So 2021 we're due for we're due for a revision. So that's my, the biggest project I've got going right now. And a few other things working with the United States Australian rules, football league on some injury surveillance and injury prevention, particularly on the women's side. And I'm getting ready to move to Austria to begin working for red bull and I, which I'm really excited about that. Speaker 3 (07:04): Amazing, amazing. They all sound really like really great projects. And since you brought up injury prevention, let's dive into that first. So there are a lot of injury prevention programs. So can you talk a little bit about those programs in general, and then talk about really, what is what's really key for injury prevention in our athletes when it comes to those programs? Speaker 4 (07:34): Absolutely. So there's a range of different programs that have all been published on and some of them are probably a little better known than others. The FIFA 11 plus, or what's now known as just the 11 plus maybe the, one of the most notable it actually came out of a program that was called the pep program. So the 11 plus was kind of aimed at soccer players, although it has been tested in other athletes and it's considered, it's kind of a dynamic warmup. So it has some dynamic stretching and some running, some strengthening, neuromuscular control, some balance exercises within it. And most of the programs that we see that have been researched are similar kind of dynamic warmups and include a variety of different things that help athletes kind of get warmed up. So some of the other ones that have been published on include the control or knee control program coming out of Sweden at the microburst and the ACL prevention in Norwegian handball has had some great success and great literature. Speaker 4 (08:47): There's the harmony program and then the sports metrics programs a little bit different. It's actually a program that was designed to be kind of a in and of itself. So it's a three times a week, 90 minute per program, primarily plyometric based. So it's a little bit different from the other programs, but has also been successful. So we've got a number of these programs that we've seen to reduce knee and ACL injuries in particular. And most of them actually have been quite successful at reducing just injuries as a whole. But the key components that we see in particular being important for ACL and knee injuries are that these programs have a strength component. So they're building strength, particularly in the hips, the quads, the hamstrings, but also in the core. So it kind of proximal in like terms of like hip and core strengthening, being important plyometric component seems to be important. To some extent a balance component may be important, although that's kind of questionable as to like how important that is. And that's one of the things that we still need more literature on is how do these components interact and influence each other? Because we seem to know what we think is important, but how much and how those different components interact. We still don't know as much about. Speaker 3 (10:25): And when we're talking about these programs, I would imagine some of the most difficult aspects of them, especially if we're looking at a younger population. So your high school, even collegiate athletes is doing them. Yup. So can you talk a little bit about implementation and compliance with these programs and how to instill that into these players and teams? Speaker 4 (10:57): Yeah, I think, you know, we've got, like you said, we've got great information. We know these programs can work, but for them to work, you have to do them. And that implementation piece, you know, whether that be in clinical research you know, we talk about that gap between research and clinical practice. We really see that here in ACL injury prevention. And part of that also is it's not just physios in implementing where we've got a whole range of stakeholders, whether those be the athletes themselves, to coaches who are often running training sessions to parents who really have to kind of be bought in to teams and clubs as a whole. Because if you have a culture that kind of instills the importance of doing a prevention program, then it's going to kind of, it may benefit in kind of trickling down. And that's also a wider culture as well. Speaker 4 (11:58): Social media scene pro teams do it. There's all sorts of layers to this. But what I think implementation really takes is identifying with that athlete or that team what's what are barriers what's important? What do we feel is, is most important? What's not as an important, and then coming up together kind of, kind of with a collaborative strategy to overcome what are those barriers? So we know information and knowledge kind of that buy-in is important. Why the why, why are we doing this in the first place? But then there's also some of the actual practical pieces of your athlete might not want to do an exercise lying down in the grass because that grass might be wet. They're going to be wet for the rest of their training session, wet and cold for the rest of their training session. So I think it has to be a really collaborative effort. Speaker 4 (12:59): And each in each situation that solution may look a little bit different. We've got some really kind of interesting information coming out. For example, the 11 plus has now a couple of studies on breaking it apart. So taking some of the pieces, for example, taking the strengthening pieces and putting them at the end of training sessions. So coaches often complained that, you know, these injury prevention programs take too long and when you've only got the field for an hour, they don't want to give up 20 minutes of their training session to do this program. So now let's take, maybe we can take this strength piece out. I means, all right. So maybe it's 10 minutes warming up at the beginning. That's probably a little easier for a coach to swallow. Then as we're cooling down, maybe we're off the pitch where we get everybody together, we finished those strengthening components. So we're still getting the entire prevention program done with that training session, but it's split up. And so thinking creatively like that are some of the ways that I think we can do a lot better in our implementation, rather than just saying, do this, here you go. Why aren't and then coming back and saying, well, why aren't you doing it? Speaker 3 (14:18): Right, right. Oh, that's, that is really interesting that and what is, does the research show that splitting it up is still as effective? Speaker 4 (14:28): Yeah. From what we know thus far, it does seem to be as effective. I think there's some other projects that are starting to look at, can you actually do that strengthening piece at home now there's other pieces that, you know, compliance at home, remembering doing those exercises the right way that could come into play there. But as of right now, what it seems like splitting it up does seem, seem to be splitting it up. At least within a training session does seem to be as effective. Speaker 3 (14:58): Excellent. And so aside from time and constraints on like you said, wet grass, things like that, what are some other common barriers that you have seen or that the research has shown to be a barrier to doing any of these? The above mentioned prevention programs. Speaker 4 (15:21): Yeah. I think coaching education is a really big one. So whether there's a few studies in Germany that we're just looking at a coach's awareness of the 11 plus and for a program that's kind of sponsored by FIFA, you know, it's promoted as kind of this soccer warmup, you would think that coaches would be kind of aware of it. And it's, it's very quite, it's actually quite surprising how few coaches are, are aware of it. Part of that is it's not in their coaching education. So at least in soccer, as coaches move up, what kind of within the ranks and, and in higher level teams, they've got a complete licenses, just like you have to complete a license to be a physio and complete continuing education in soccer coaches do to getting that program into that coaching education, I think is a really important piece. Speaker 4 (16:18): But then there's also the piece of helping them understand, again, coming back to that, why, you know, yeah, you want your players to be available. You don't want your players injured. And that's not just a, an immediate fact, but helping them understand the long-term implications, especially of something like an ACL injury, this is not an injury. That's just going to mean you don't have this athlete for a year. This is something that's going to affect how they play long-term it's gonna affect their knee long-term it could affect their career. So this has long-term implications. Buy-In also can come from kind of some of the performance effects, the stronger, faster, more talented athlete that's that there are some of those performance effects coming potentially from performing some of these injury prevention programs or injury prevention or injury risk medic mitigation programs that can help buy in. Speaker 4 (17:22): And then if we just look at Google would cut straight to the chase, is coaches want to win oftentimes and money. If you've got more players available, we know more players available equals a more successful team. And even Holly silver is actually in some of her dissertation work looked straight at the more you do the 11 plus the more successful the NCAA division one men's team was. So there's, there's she, she actually was able to draw a connection between doing the FIFA 11 plus and winning that those are the types of things that oftentimes coaches will latch onto and say, yeah, I want to win. Or clubs will say, yeah, we want to win. We want to do that thing that makes us that, that next level that makes us better at the higher levels that keeps us earning money. Speaker 3 (18:18): Okay. Exactly. So from, from what it sounds like is to get these programs implemented is you need a lot of collaboration from everyone, from all the stakeholders, whether it be the coaches, the trainers, the physios, the players, the owners, when we're talking about big league teams and, and with our younger, our younger subset of athletes, parents, coaches, and the kids themselves. And, and I guess communicating the value of these programs depends on who you're talking to, which is why, if you're the physio communicating the program, you really have to have a different set of communication bullet points, if you will, if you will, for each person on the, within that team, because you're going to talk differently to a parent than you are to an owner of a team, or you're going to talk differently to a coach than the player or the parents. So really knowing how to, how to talk to those stakeholders is key. And I think everything you just said will kind of help people understand how to have those different conversations with different people. Speaker 4 (19:26): Yeah. And I think there's all the other piece that some of those conversations is really empowering them. So there's the education piece and helping them understand, but there's also the empowerment piece that you may be a physio and you may have this injury prevention knowledge, but you don't have to be there for this to happen. It's just as effective for you to run this program as it is for a coach or a parent to run it. And we have, there's some good data on that that coaches can run really effective injury prevention programs. And so helping them kind of take on that role and say, yeah, no, I, I feel confident in taking my players through this. I feel confident in knowing why we're doing this there. I think that's the second piece too, is that it kind of empowerment piece, and maybe it's a player, maybe it's a captain that, that needs that education or that kind of empowerment as well. Speaker 4 (20:31): I think the generation of players that's growing up now is going to be very different from the generation of players say that you and I played played with we didn't understand or really have much of this. Whereas I think there's some really, there's some kids growing up now who are growing up with some amazing knowledge. And I think also coming with it, hopefully some better strength, some more and more neuromuscular control than maybe we had coming through puberty as well. So I think it's exciting to kind of see where this next generation is going to be, because I think we're going to have some athletes that are just like that more empowered to know more about their body. Maybe have a little bit more control maybe even coming with also potentially better talent who knows, who knows? Yeah. TBD to be determined. So you mentioned a little bit about motor learning. So let's dive into that a little bit because there is new research that includes motor learning, problem solving creative thinking. So what exactly does that mean in relationship to ACL injury? Speaker 2 (21:51): No, we're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsor and we will be right back net health therapy for private practice as a cloud-based all in one EMR solution for managing your practice. That's right. One piece of software that handles all of your scheduling documentation, billing and reporting needs. Plus lots more and one super easy to use package right now, net health is offering a special deal for healthy, wealthy, and smart listeners completed demo with the net health team and get a hundred dollars towards lunch for your staff visit net health.com/lindsey to get started and get access to free resources for PTs like eBooks on demand, webinars, and business tools. Once again, that's net health.com/l I T Z Y. Speaker 4 (22:38): Yeah. So I think it's a really exciting area. And I think we're really just kind of tipping a little bit of the iceberg. People are starting to pay attention to some of the work that's coming out. And I think it's, it is really exciting and in the kind of prevention realm what we're seeing is people kind of pointing out that the programs that we have, we know we kind of have some principles of motor learning, but the programs in injury prevention that we have haven't really paid much attention to them. So at a very basic level one of the things that has been talked about from a motor learning perspective for a while now is internal versus external cues. So we know that giving an external cube, giving an output outcome focused, Q2 and athlete is going to help them keep that motion kind of more automatic. They're not going to be thinking about like, I need my hip in line with my knee in line with my toe and foot, my knee. Can't go too far over my shoe laces. I need to sit down. Speaker 3 (23:50): That's a lot to think about. Yeah. You can't Speaker 4 (23:52): Play a sport while you're thinking about all those things. Yeah, Speaker 3 (23:55): Yeah, no, no. Speaker 4 (23:58): So when that, if that cue is external or is outcome-based suddenly that athlete's much, much more, much better able to pay attention to the soccer ball that's flying past them or getting ready to, to bat. Speaker 3 (24:13): And can you let's if you wouldn't mind, just so people have a better idea of what an internal versus an external cue is. Can you give an example of, let's say a situation we'll use soccer as the example and give an internal cue and then give an external cue so that people can differentiate. Speaker 4 (24:34): Yeah. Yeah. So maybe, maybe we'll do say we're doing like a single leg squat, similar to what I, what I just said. So an internal cue might be, I want you to keep your hip, your knee and your foot all in one straight line that external cue might be giving them a we'll say a pole that's lined up in front of them and you might not even tell them what they're, what what's going on. Maybe you've got a pole in front of a mirror, so that's poles running vertically and they're, they're they're we, we just set them up so that their foot's in front of that pole and they're doing that single leg squat. So now you've got a visual line in front of them. You're paying their, their attention is going to be on that visual line. As they're doing that single leg squat, suddenly you see that they see that like, if their hips pretty far adducted or their knees collapsing in, you've got a line you can say, focus on that line. I'm going to focus on that line. Got it. That one, it isn't their body. Other cues, maybe like giving analogies I want you to think of your body as a column or that's, that's not a brilliant one. But you know, things like that. So analogies are helpful for external cues. They're also we'll get in, I'll get into that in a, in a sec, cause they're actually another, Speaker 3 (26:10): Go get into it, get into it. Speaker 4 (26:12): So analogies also bring in another piece of motor learning, which is called implicit learning. Again, kind of having that internal picture of what emotion should like should look or what that motion should feel like is implicit learning. So you've got external and internal, external internal cues, but you've also then got kind of implicit learning. So a great example of implicit learning is when you ask, you know, a really athlete to explain what they do on the court or on the pitch. And a lot of times they can't put words to what they do. And that's, that's kind of a good example of maybe implicit learning is they've got, there's no rules set to that learning. There is no order. It's just, I've got this internal knowledge, internal picture internal kind of motor memory of what, what that is. And I just execute that. Speaker 4 (27:11): I don't think about it. And so with those, all of my attention can stay to the game. I'm not thinking about how I'm moving. I'm just, just, just kind of to the game. So pulling those back to prevention are kind of injury prevention programs have said, here's a video or here's a picture. This is good. This is bad. Or they've given kind of implicit our internal cues. So those internal cues are those, keep your knee, your hip and your foot all in one straight line where we may benefit and where we might be able to bolster. Some of those programs is by adding some of these, these motor learning pieces at the very basic level, adding external cues, maybe adding some analogies or some implicit learning. Another, another way you can facilitate implicit learning is through dual tasking. One of my favorite things reading through some of the literature is in studying implicit learning. A few authors have taken novice novice golfers, and these novice golfers have, have to go and put, and while they're putting they basically yellow letters. Speaker 4 (28:35): So you literally just be out there like trying to learn to put you, you don't. I know how to put, you may not even get any directions, but you're just out there kind of yelling some letters, because if you have to generate letters, you can't be entirely focused on that pudding. So there's that aspect actually, of having two tasks going on at once. That means not all your attention can be on one of those tasks. How does that help? How does that help the movement? Yeah, so, so that's a very good question. What it means is, as you're learning, it it's like harder, but yeah, once you get to that kind of point where you're comfortable, you're able to execute that movement. It's an automatic movement, it's unconscious, it's automatic. And when we put that in the context of sport, that means that movement is happening without the athlete thinking about it and their attention remains, remains elsewhere. Their attention can remain on the game, that's going on the ball, that's flying at them. You know, that random thing that just flew by them that wasn't the ball and wasn't part of the game, but could be that perturbation, that in another situation could be distracting enough and could lead to an injury situation. Potentially. Speaker 3 (29:58): Got it, got it. Yeah. Like I, and you and I have had this conversation before, because I have a young athlete and we're doing, trying to do incorporate some of this stuff. So one of the things we're doing is I'm having her do some unpredictability drills with clock yourself, but we're trying to do them in Spanish. So she has to say things in Spanish as she's doing them. So that she's a little do. So she's accomplishing this kind of dual tasking. And, and I will also say it's fun. It's fun for the patients, fun for the therapist. And they kind of understand while they're why they're doing those things. And then every once in a while, just like throw a ball at her and see what happens. Speaker 4 (30:42): And you put this in the context then of some of those injury prevention programs and coach buy-in. So let's put Bali's in with single leg squats, but, but you know, squats and you jump into a header. There's already a little bit of some of that in some of the programs, but the more we can get that ball, some of those technical skills involved mix them potentially in with some of the movements that we're working on, maybe that might help with some of these, this kind of adding in some of this motor learning piece. Now I say all of this, none of this has been tested yet to change any of these programs we're really doing or to kind of, we need to go back and test them. And so, you know, this is where I say this, but it is kind of hypothetical, but in thinking about it, as well as we're kind of trying to overcome some of those barriers, that 10 minutes, that we're not, maybe we're at 10 to 15 minutes where we're trying to convince a coach to do something. Speaker 4 (31:49): Coaches are going to buy in a lot more. If there's a, if they can build some skills into that or they can see the sport reflected in it, rather than it just being kind of this abstract quote unquote injury prevention program. So can we get some of this dual tasking, can we get some of this kind of real world kind of environment type demands and challenges integrated in with some of those pieces that we're trying to build from a neuromuscular standpoint, can we mix them all together and end up with a maybe potentially more beneficial outcome? Speaker 3 (32:26): Yeah. And, you know, as you're saying all of this, it's kind of opening my mind up into these programs as being these living, breathing programs that aren't set in stone and that have the ability to change and morph over time as research continues to evolve. And I think that's really exciting for these programs as well, because you don't want to have these programs be thought of as stale because then that's going to not help with your buy-in. Speaker 4 (32:55): Yep. Yeah. And that's one of the complaints that you sometimes see about some of these programs is all right, so my team's done him for a season. They've all mastered, you know, all my players have mastered this program. They're bored of it now. And the likelihood that every single one of your players has mastered every single one of those exercises is that we'll put that into question, but we'll put that one on the side, but yeah, if you're doing the exact same program, the exact same exercise, every single training session for multiple years, yeah. Your players are going to get bored of it. And so are these, some of the opportunities where we kind of help with that buy in where we make it a little bit more creative, where we help kind of with some of those implementation pieces to make it more interesting to make it more long-term and to, to really help with people wanting to do them. Speaker 3 (33:50): I think it's great. And now we're, we've spoken a little bit about research here and there. So let's talk about any gaps in the research. So, I mean, are there gaps in the research? I feel like, of course, but are these gaps something that can't be overcome? Speaker 4 (34:09): No. All of the gaps that at least dive I'm aware of, and I'm sure there are more I just finished writing a paper alongside Holly and grant the Mark. So Holly silvers and, and Gretta microburst for the journal of orthopedic research. And, and one of the things that we did was kind of go through the literature and identify some of the gaps. Speaker 3 (34:35): What were, what were they, you don't have to say all of them, just give a couple of a couple of the big ones, Speaker 4 (34:42): But one of the big ones is a lot of our literature is focused on women, which is important, but in total numbers, we still have more ACL's happening in men. So we need more research in men. A lot of our research is in soccer and handball. There's a lot of other high-risk sports at there. So there were focused kind of on team sports but there is some pretty high risk team sports, something like net ball play ball volleyball have very high ACL injury numbers, individual sports things like gymnastics and wrestling. And those are also Tufts sports to come back to they're very high impact or they're very MBA. They've got some crazy positions that you don't see. So individual sports, I think have quite lacked outside of skiing. Skiing's got a lot of attention. One of the biggest ones that I think for me is really important is we don't have good reporting of the subjects and the diversity within the research that we've done. Speaker 4 (35:51): So most of the, the research that's been done has been done in the U S some in Canada and in Scandinavia, or at least in Europe as a whole, there's been a few studies that have been in in Africa. But we even within the studies that we have in the us and Europe and Australia, we don't, none of them have reported any of the, like really the, the, the race or ethnicity of the athletes who were part of them. So those may have implications and Tracy Blake did a amazing BJSM blog that was kind of a call to action for researchers. And it's one that I'd love to echo here that we need to be better at reporting our biases looking at our, our subject populations and funding and encouraging studies outside of kind of we'll call it quote, unquote, the global North. I think that's, that's a big gap that we need to fill and we need to be more aware of. Speaker 3 (37:01): Excellent. And on that note, we are going to wrap things up, but what I would like you to do is number one, is there anything that we didn't cover or anything more that you want to add to any of the subjects we covered? Speaker 4 (37:16): Ooh, I know you always ask this question and I always have never prepared for it. Speaker 3 (37:23): Well, you know, cause I don't want to like skirt over something and then the guests at the end is like, I really wanted to say this. And she just ended the interview. Speaker 4 (37:32): Think of it probably right before I go to bed. Probably. Speaker 3 (37:36): I can't think of anything right now. Okay. Speaker 4 (37:39): Excellent. Excellent. For any readers who haven't read Dr. Tracy Blake's BJSM post definitely go check it out. We'll put the link in. Speaker 3 (37:47): Yeah. Yeah. We'll put the link into the show notes here. So you can read her blog app over at BJSM and I agree. It was it was very well written and it was a really nice call to action and or call to awareness. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Right. Maybe not call to action, but certainly a call to awareness, which is step one in the sequence of actionable moves. Definitely. So yes, she's a gym. So now before we wrap things up I'll ask the same question to you that I asked to everyone and knowing where you are now in your life and in your career, what advice would you give to yourself as a new grad? Let's say like not new grad PhD grad, but new Speaker 4 (38:36): Duke grad, new, new grad coming out of Duke PT school. I'm trying to think of what I said the last time I was on. Speaker 3 (38:46): Well, don't say it again. No, I'm just kidding. Speaker 4 (38:48): Well, yeah, that's what I'm worried about saying the same thing again. I think what I said last time, but what is my like big thing is being more gentle on myself. When I came out of PT school, I started work. I was the first new hire new grad that they'd hired. And so I was working alongside some just phenomenal clinicians, but they had the least experience, one head, like 15 years of experience. And I came out of school, unexpected myself to kind of treat and operate on the, kind of the same experience level that they did. And I it's just not possible. So I've spent a lot of time kind of beating myself up. And so it takes a lot of reminding even now that like, I still have, you know, I've graduated in 2011. So I'm coming up on 11 years of experience and it's still not a lot in a lot of ways. So being gentle on myself that I don't have to come up with, you know, everything on the spot that I don't don't necessarily have the experience to know or have seen everything or every course or development. And so being okay with that and being gentle and allowing myself to be, to, to just be where I'm at is, is I think Speaker 3 (40:08): It's wonderful advice. And just think if you thought you did know everything, I mean, how boring number one and number two, you'd never move on for sure. Speaker 4 (40:18): Yeah. Yeah. Right. So Speaker 3 (40:20): You're stuck. You'd be pretty stuck. So giving yourself the space and the kindness to say, Hey, I don't know everything. So I'm going to make it a point to learn more is just good therapy. It's just being a good PT, being a good physio, you know, otherwise you're just stuck in 2011. I mean Speaker 4 (40:41): Gotcha. Yeah. 11 wasn't bad, but I'm glad I'm not stuck there. Speaker 3 (40:45): Yeah. I mean, what a bore, right. You'd be like so boring as a PT cause you would never advance. Speaker 4 (40:51): Yeah. So your ex Speaker 3 (40:54): Excellent advice. And now where can people find you on social media and elsewhere? Speaker 4 (40:59): So I am on Twitter at, at soccer, PT 11 I'm on Instagram at squeaky Edgar. I will note that's actually more personal but follow me anywhere cause you'll get some great, great adventures. And those are my primaries social media. Speaker 3 (41:20): Excellent. And before we hop off, can you talk quickly about basketball, sports, medicine Speaker 4 (41:26): Science? Oh yeah. I forgot to talk about that in my projects. Speaker 3 (41:30): Yeah. Let's talk about this quickly. Yes. So Speaker 4 (41:34): Was honored to be a part of an editorial group that just completed. I just got a book out. It's an ASCA public, a publication on basketball, sports medicine and rehabilitation. So it's a quite the book. But I say that because it is over over 1100 pages if I remember correctly. So it's, it's a, it's a, it's a chunk of a book. But we are, I've got an extra copy of it. So one of our allowed visitors really be getting a copy. Okay. Speaker 3 (42:15): Well Amy, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate your time. Speaker 4 (42:19): Thank you so much for having me. It's always fun. Speaker 3 (42:21): Everyone else. Thank you for listening. Have a great couple, have a great week and stay healthy, wealthy and smart. Speaker 2 (42:28): A big thank you to Dr. Amy Erindale for coming on the podcast today. And of course a big thank you to net health. Again, they have created net health for private, for net health therapy for private practice, which is a cloud-based all in one EMR solution for managing your practice. One piece of software that handles scheduling documentation, billing reporting needs. Plus a lot more. If you want to check it out, there's a special deal for healthy, wealthy and smart listeners. Complete a demo with the net health team and get a hundred dollars toward lunch for your staff. Visit net health.com/glitzy to get started again. That's net health.com/l I T Z. Speaker 3 (43:09): Why thank you for listening and please subscribe to the podcast at podcast dot healthy, wealthy, smart.com. And don't forget to follow us on social media.  

In this episode, Owner of Sisu Performance and Physical Therapy, Dr. Ellie Somers, talks about bone stress injuries, specifically in female runners. Today, Ellie tells us about differentiating between the male and female runner, and she elaborates on a subjective and objective exam of a bone stress injury. We learn about the most vulnerable sites for a bone stress injury, the misconception about the severity of the diagnosis, and the strategies Ellie uses to get women on to strength and flexibility training programs. Ellie talks about the concerns that many people have after a BSI, and she gives her younger self some valuable advice, all on today's episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways "Female runners have a lot of particular and special needs and considerations when talking about evaluation from a physical therapist perspective, as well as from a communication standpoint, that need to be considered." "When you're getting someone into your clinic, you don't want to make assumptions about their circumstance." Things to consider in a subjective exam for a bone stress injury: Is the patient grasping why they got into this situation? A bone stress injury isn't necessary about the shape of their body or foot, it's a result of limitations of their dietary intake. Their menstrual cycle. This can be an uncomfortable conversation for many clinicians, but it is a required question for a subjective exam. "If a runner is coming to you explaining that they think they sustained a BSI because of their pronated foot or because they were wearing the wrong shoes, we've missed a huge piece of why bone stress injuries actually happen." The most vulnerable sites for a BSI: The femoral neck, the first and second metatarsal, and the anterior tibia, among others. The objective exam: Palpation, single-leg balance, and walking. More explosive movements. These include the single-leg hops and taking steps up or down. "You can still be stressing bone and it's going to heal. When we don't stress bone enough, it could theoretically take longer and put that bone in a more vulnerable position." "Women athletes are more prone to lower bone density than male athletes are." "Runners kind of have this misconception that running itself actually strengthens bone. In reality, it doesn't really strengthen bone as much as we'd like to think." "History of bone stress injury is the number one risk factor for new bone stress injury." "There's no rush. You have your entire life ahead of you to work and refine. As long as you're working on something, you're working towards it."   Suggested Keywords Running Injuries, Rehabilitation, Therapy, Physiotherapy, PT, Training, Injuries, Sport, Wellness, Health, Recovery, Female Runners, BSI, Bone Stress Injury, RTS   More about Dr. Ellie Somers Dr. Ellie Somers is a physical therapist, run coach, weightlifting coach and the owner of Sisu (pronounced see-su) Performance and Physical Therapy in Seattle, WA. She also serves as the team physical therapist for the women's United States Australian Rules Football Team. As a private practice owner and coach, Ellie specializes in work with women athletes, specifically runners and field athletes.     To learn more, follow Ellie at: Email:              ellie@sisuwolf.com Facebook:       Sisu Performance PT Instagram:       @thesisuwolf Twitter:            @drelliesomers YouTube:        Sisu Sports Performance and Physical Therapy Website:          https://sisuwolf.com/resources/e-books/return-to-run (FREE gift!)   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:               https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the Full Transcript Here:  Speaker 1 (00:01): Hey, Ellie, welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to have you on. Thanks for having me, Karen. So this month we're talking all about running injuries. Just so people coming onto the podcast is the first time you're listening this year, sort of changing up the format each month is a different we're focusing on a different topic. So last month was all about ACL injuries. This month, we're going to concentrate on running injuries, which is why Dr. Lee summers is here. And today we're going to be talking about the female runner. So Ellie, my first question is, are female runners, just little petite male runners, and it should be treated as such. Speaker 2 (00:38): Well, obviously the answer to that question is drum roll, please. No, yeah, yeah. I think female runners have a lot of particular and special needs and considerations when talking about evaluation from a physical therapist perspective, as well as from a communication standpoint that need to be considered. Speaker 1 (01:02): And what kind of, can you kind of differentiate that male runner from the female runner? What are kind of some of the big differences that if you are a physical therapist, a run coach, even a personal trainer, a strength and conditioning coach, what are some things that we need to be aware of in the female runner? Speaker 2 (01:20): You know, the way that I think about this, I actually think about it from a bio-psycho-social perspective. So what women are exposed to in our environments, in our engagement with other human beings, with social dynamics and things of that nature is very different than what men are typically exposed to. I also think of it as you know, generally speaking in terms of adaptability, women and men have the same traits and characteristics, but certainly things that need to be taken into consideration for women include our biology and physiology more specifically our menstrual cycle and hormone cycle. So I tend to think of it as a very holistic thing. And what are the things that female runners might be exposed to that set the stage for certain types of injuries or pain experiences that maybe male athletes aren't or are less likely to be Speaker 1 (02:22): Right. Got it. And so now let's take a common injury that you may see in a female runner, and let's talk about what you would how you would go about your subjective exam, and then we'll get into objective exam and some possible treatment options, but let's take a bone stress injury, pretty common in female runners. So first talk about, well, actually, let's talk about why is that common in female runners? Speaker 2 (02:54): That is a great question. Lots of there's probably a lot of nuance to answering that question. I think theories abound and I'm thinking of those series. I think that the primary thing that we get exposed to as female athletes is how do I want to phrase this considerations about our body and in the run community? I think it's a lot more pervasive for women athletes. So not only are women on the whole exposed to messages about their body, that they need to be smaller, that they need to be thinner in the run community itself. Women are then also exposed to this concept that you'd need to be in order to get faster. You need to be thinner. And that sets the stage for eating disorders and diet restriction and limitation that can lead to bone stress injury. Speaker 1 (03:55): Got it. Okay. So obviously very sensitive subjects. So the subjective exam becomes all the more important. So walk us through maybe how some questions that you would ask and kind of how you would asking keeping that sensitivity of this may be a person that's experiencing maybe some eating disorders or experiencing some body image body image issues. So walk us through your subjective exam. Speaker 2 (04:27): Yeah. So I think it depends on what they're coming to you for and what you know already. So depending on your clinical setting, you might already know they're coming to see me for a bone stress injury. And this person may have already seen a physician and had the imaging done at which point you may not need to dive into a lot of detail there, but I think what you want to try and capture is is this person grasping why they got into this situation. And I think as a clinical provider, that's working to reduce risk, prevent air quotes around prevent these types of injuries. You need to understand that this person knows that bone stress injury isn't necessarily a result of the shape of their body or the shape of their foot. It's the result of really limitations on their dietary intake. So when you're getting somebody into your clinic, you don't want to make assumptions about their circumstance, but I think it, it behooves you to start to ask questions around, you know, do they understand why they got this injury? Speaker 2 (05:40): And if their answer to you is while I was over-training, you might want to start to dig deeper and figure out if you can fill any gaps and holes there to help them understand that fueling strategies are a big contributor to these injuries. So subjectively there's that piece to cover. Then I think you also have to think about how do I want to say this their menstrual cycle basically. And I think for a lot of clinicians, these topics can be very uncomfortable, hard to, to talk about, hard to ask questions of, but when you're doing a subjective exam, this is a required question to be asking, what is your menstrual cycle? Like, are you having regular and normal periods? When did you start your period? At what age, if you're not comfortable asking these questions in a face-to-face manner, or you don't think it's appropriate for you, then they definitely need to be included on your intake forms. And you need to be reviewing your intake forms before you see that person in your clinic. So those would be, I think the two primary things that you need to sort of start to get a picture of, because if a runner is coming to you, explaining that they think they sustained a BSI bone stress injury because of their pronated foot or because they were wearing the wrong shoes, we've missed a huge piece of why bone stress injuries actually happen. Speaker 1 (07:17): And I really do like including that on your intake paperwork, because then even if, whether you're uncomfortable asking that question or not, or you are comfortable either way, I mean, either way, quite frankly, you should be comfortable asking that question. I don't care who you are. You're a physical therapist, you're a healthcare provider. That's a question you should be very comfortable asking because it is part of their medical record. And part of, of like can be part of the reasoning behind these bone stress injuries. But it also gives you if it's on your intake form, it also gives you more information so that when you are in your subjective exam, you can perhaps hone into that and you can even say, Hey, listen, on my on the intake form, I noticed that you're not having like regular periods. Can you tell me a little bit more about that and that's it. Speaker 2 (08:16): Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think all it will show you is, is this person having energy demand issues? You know, we know that if you've lost your period or you're having irregular periods, it can be a very clear objective indication that your energy in is not matching your energy out. And it's what we would call somebody suffering from low energy availability or in the, the more maybe more like broad terminology would be relative energy deficiency in sport. And this can cause a host of different and problems. And the last thing you want to do as a clinician or provider is I think miss that, especially in a female runner, because it just sets them up for recurring bone stress injuries, or recurring injuries. And that cycle will just repeat itself. Speaker 1 (09:11): Yeah. Now, okay. So you've asked those questions. Are you asking questions on how much are you running? How often are you running? Have you picked up your mileage and things like that? Is that something that you're asking as well? Speaker 2 (09:25): 100%, because a lot of the times people who are training for a new distance of an event, right? So if I have a person who's like I was training for my first marathon, they might have sustained a bone stress injury as a result of some of that increase in strength in training while also maybe not matching that with their fueling. So it helps you get a picture of what this person is training for and why they're training for it and how much training they have. And then you can move forward from there with a more practical plan as a physical therapist on how we're going to strategize a graded return to activity. Speaker 1 (10:07): Got it. Okay. Any, what else are you asking? What else do you need to know from this patient, Speaker 2 (10:19): Everything else that you would need to know in a physical therapy exam? I think you know, I think for a lot of folks, these injuries are scary and they've disrupted their lives to a great degree. A lot of these runners will have to stop running for months of time. So all of the same questions you would ask, but then I would also add onto that. You want to know, sometimes you want to know, does this person have a registered dietician as part of their care team? Are they working with an endocrinologist? Have they had any blood work done to determine if they were suffering from relative energy deficiency in sport? Do they have a team of people that can help support their progression back to play? Now? I want to be clear. I don't think every single person who has a bone stress injuries requires a team of people. I think it's an ideal. And if I've got somebody who's come in, who's got a bone stress injury, and doesn't have a team of people I'm planting seeds to get them, that team. So that they're set up for success. Speaker 1 (11:34): Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. And gosh, I just had a question and it was like in my head and just went it'll it'll come back. It'll anyway, it'll come back to me. I'll edit this part out. It'll come back to me. Cause it was a good one. It's there it's there. I just there's days. It's just it's. I was like, Oh, I got to ask this question anyway. If I think of it later, I'll ask it later and we'll just splice it in. No one will know the difference. Oh yes. Got it. It's back. Okay. So is there a difference when someone is coming to you via direct access, just versus someone has already been to a physician, they have been diagnosed with a bone stress injury. Let's say they had some imaging done. It has shown up where, what is the difference there? Is there a difference in your examination of this person? Speaker 2 (12:28): Yes, absolutely. Because, and I work primarily in a direct access capacity. So by when people come to me, they haven't typically seen anybody else. And now it's my responsibility to be able to pick up on these things and tell someone, you know, I need you to go see your physician. We need to rule out bone stress injury before we move forward. So from a purely exam standpoint, when somebody is coming to me, who is a runner who potentially has pain at a site that could be risk for bone stress injury, I need to have the evaluation skills to be able to, to rule that in or rule that out to some degree so that we can move them in the right. Speaker 1 (13:15): Got it. And what are those sites? What are the most vulnerable sites for a bone stress injury? Speaker 2 (13:21): Well, the femoral neck is one of the most vulnerable, I would say anyone who's coming in, who's a female athlete. Who's complaining of anterior hip pain. That's maybe a little bit vague and is presenting with some of those additional sort of risk factors changes in their menstrual cycle, low energy availability training, abrupt training changes. I'm starting to stew a little bit and get a little bit concerned. So that's going to be a high-risk stress fracture site, some other high risk stress fracture sites include the first and second metatarsal. And I want to say the anterior tibia as well. It's likely that I'm forgetting one, but yeah, some of those regions are considered high risk. High risk essentially means that the likelihood for healing is a little bit harder, I guess you could say. Speaker 1 (14:18): Okay. All right. Thank you. All right. Now let's move on to your objective exam. So what kind of things are you looking for? Are you going to say to this person, let's get you on the treadmill and see what you're doing with your run? Okay. Speaker 2 (14:34): That's the great part of the subjective exam because the subjective exam is going to lead me into thinking whether or not I need to test for bone stress injury before we pursue running. Right. And there are a couple of things that are going to lead you that some of which I've already talked about, but site-specific pain is definitely one of them, localized pain. Sometimes people will point directly to their pain and be like, it's right here. They can have pain in, I know femoral, neck stress fractures. They can have pain with offloading. So sometimes they'll say, you know, like stepping off of a step, I suddenly have pain in my hip. So there are things that you'll just pick up on and then you do not want to get on the treadmill at that point, if you're suspecting bone stress injury, you need to do the tests to sort of rule it out before you get to the treadmill. Some of those tests that I would do, I think first would probably be about palpation. So depending on the area, you know, the femoral neck is Speaker 1 (15:42): D that's tricky. That's a tricky one to help paint, Speaker 2 (15:46): Be able to get there with your hands, but certainly a medial tibial region or an anterior tibial region. You can palpate that with your hands. And we're looking for pretty pinpoint tenderness. From there we might get them up and then first have them walk. What's their walking look like, is there any offloading happening then I might have them do a little single leg balance. How does that feel? A lot of the times people may not have very distinct acute pain with some of these low level impact activities, right? So if they're presenting with no pain, now this sort of, I'm going to describe it as like this first level, no pain with walking, no pain with single leg balance. Now I want to get them doing a little bit of an explosive move, maybe a step up or step down and determine are they having pain with some more functional tasks? And I think the single leg hop test is a pretty, like just straight up and down. Three hops is a pretty decent maneuver for almost any lower extremity potential stress fracture site. You know, I don't know the statistics on reliability and validity, but it's one that I use very regularly with somebody I'm suspecting that. And then from there you can kind of make a determination about how you want to proceed. Typically, speaking of the folks that I work with, they're going to have pain in one of those moves. Speaker 1 (17:20): Yeah. And, and at that point, does it then come down to, if you're seeing them via direct access, explaining to them, Hey, listen, this is my hypothesis. Let's get you to a physician at that point. Yes. Speaker 2 (17:34): Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Usually I'm revealing at that point, I'm concerned for bone stress injury. I want to get you, you know, examined for that. So, and they can, you know, go to their physician that they know and that they trust. But I think it's important depending on the region that we get the right imaging. Certainly if I hip femoral, neck stress fractures suspected, I really want to push that person to try and push for an MRI. So you know, it kind of depends on your relationship with the person and where they're at on a lot of different levels, but, but that's what we're going to be going for. Speaker 1 (18:15): Okay. And so let's say this is someone who has already gone to the physician. They've had the MRI, this is diagnosed. So you've done your evaluation now, what do you do? I guess the question is, is, are they come, are they non-weightbearing at this point? What are, what are some things that we can do as physical therapists for these patients when they're coming in? They've already been diagnosed? Speaker 2 (18:37): Yeah. Well, so many of these athletes don't get referred to physical therapy in the first place, which I think is a problem. But yeah, if you are getting these people, we really do want to be loading those tissues. And bone responds really positively to stress as long as the environment is you know, a strong, healthy, robust environment as well. So depending on their level, we're going to be progressively loading those tissues all the way up into the point where they're cleared for a return to run. So, you know, squats step up step downs. If they're not cleared to weight bear, you know, we're definitely doing stuff on the table, that's just pull it using the muscles around that tissue. And even just by using the muscles around that tissue and the injury, you're stimulating bone adaptations that are positive. Speaker 1 (19:37): And so I guess the, the thing that might come into a patient or a therapist is, well, if I'm non-weightbearing, I don't really want to do anything with this side. Cause what if I make it worse? Right. So is it, is this injury, let's say we're talking about a femoral neck BSI, is this injury so fragile that if you're doing things in a non-weight bearing capacity, can that make it worse? Speaker 2 (20:05): Not typically. You know, I, I, I tend to think that people who have had BSI or are so much more resilient than they get credit for, I have had and seen, and I don't commend this necessarily. So many runners who have run through BSI and there is, there is some toxicity there to unpack that we don't need to do today, of course. But all that tells me is that you can still be stressing bone and it's going to heal. And I think what we know is that when we don't stress bone enough, it could theoretically take longer and put that bone in a more position. So in my opinion, all of these athletes with BSI need to go to a physical therapist so that they can load those tissues up. Yeah, Speaker 1 (20:56): No, that makes, that makes perfect sense. And I just wanted to kind of make that distinction because I'm sure if someone is told, Oh, you have a bone stress injury, you know, scary, scary, right. Very scary. And that's where I think the team comes in. Like you said, assembling this team around that, around that runner is so powerful, Speaker 2 (21:20): Right? I mean, gosh, I think those soft skills are invaluable when working with women who have had BSI, because so many of these runners it's like totally ruined their perception of who they are and their worth and their value. And so you have to be really good at being a kind and generous and thoughtful and considerate to that person's experience because it's still very much in a way I'm going to use the word trauma to them. And I think not everyone is going to be ready to work with a mental health therapist or work with a registered sport dietician. But I think as their support person, your job as a physical therapist is to really listen to what's going on and gain some of that trust so that you can softly nudge them in those directions and work them towards a more robust, healthy lifestyle. Speaker 1 (22:23): Yeah. Because you don't want this single bone stress injury to set off a cascade of other events. That could be really detrimental to them. Not only as an athlete, but just as a person. Speaker 2 (22:36): Right? Yeah. I mean, women athletes are more prone to lower bone density than male athletes are. I'm just women in general. Let's just use women in general and runners, you know, runners kind of have this misconception that running itself actually strengthens bone in reality. It doesn't really strengthen bone as much as we'd like to think. And all that means as women is we need to be thinking about other ways to strengthen our bones. If that's something we care about. Speaker 1 (23:08): Right. And that's where a good strength training program comes in for runners because I have spoken and I have treated plenty of runners and runners like to run when you tell them, Hey, you, we should get you on a robust strengthening program. It's like, what a no. So, yeah. So now let's say you're, we're still in the treatment process. So we're, we're past the, this vulnerable part of the bone stress injury. They're able to weight bear, they're able to do more. What strategies do you use to get these women on to strength, training, flexibility programs? Speaker 2 (23:49): Honestly I show them, I think that's like a big component of how I work with the people that come to see me is showing them what they need to be doing. And first of all, that it's fun and that it can be fun that it's not intimidating and that we can keep it really simple and easy. And it doesn't have to be a huge long laundry list of exercises to keep them healthy. And FEMA women especially are so subject to carrying, you know, a list of 20 to 30 exercises that they're doing to, you know, through the guise of staying, I'm going to use air quotes, healthy and keeping tissues healthy, and it's just way more than it's necessary. So I think part of why women, like working with me is I have been able to really speak their language, pare things down significantly. So that it's simple. It's, you know, 25 to 30 minutes, one, one to three times a week is really all runners need to, to keep that bar trending in the positive direction. Speaker 1 (24:56): Yeah. And I think that's an important distinction to make because oftentimes we think we have to work out five days a week and it has to be this like really complicated. I have to do a chest day. I have to do a leg day. I have to do a hamstring day. I have to do a quad day. I have to. And with all of that said, you're like, Oh, screw it. This is too complicated. I'm just going to run. Yeah, no, Speaker 2 (25:20): I do not blame them whatsoever for giving up on programs in part, because they're just so complicated. And for runners, we just need to keep it simple, keep it clean, keep it short and sweet and to the point and get on, get on our way. Speaker 1 (25:37): Yeah. Excellent. Excellent advice. Now, is there anything that we missed as far as that treatment aspect with these women with bone stress injuries, and obviously we're not going into like individual programming for an individual person because it's so varied. I'm sure. But I guess, are there X speaking of exercises, are there exercises that you do like to include with most of your runners? Speaker 2 (26:06): Yes. So they're getting lower extremity strengthening exercises. So, you know, a squat and a deadlift of some sort, all of my runners will give that we're also going to be incorporating and especially for bone stress, injury, plyometric, explosive exercise. So, you know, squat jumps, counter movement jumps, broad jumps, Pogo jumps. We don't have to do those in like a hit style. If that makes sense. We don't need to be like every minute on the minute you're doing this many jumps or whatever for runners, what we need to be doing is doing it to load the bones for one and two, doing it to create and foster tendon stiffness. And so I think there's a little bit of a misnomer amongst women athletes, especially that in doing plyometrics, they have to be really, really intense. And I'm of the opinion that we want your running to be really, really intense. We don't also need your strength training and your physical therapy to be to the nth degree, intense just needs to be targeted. Speaker 1 (27:21): Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. So you don't need to like kill yourself on your workout day and then go out and run the next day with like jelly legs. Right. Speaker 2 (27:30): Exactly. Exactly. Speaker 1 (27:32): Yeah. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense from a running standpoint. It may make sense in, in another population. Yes. But you have to be specific with your population. And this is where the skill of a good physical therapist comes in to be able to tailor that program, to that specific runner and what their needs are, especially coming off of a bone stress injury. Right. Exactly. And is there a fear in the runner after a bone stress injury, and you say to them, let's start doing some jump squats. Like what lady are you kidding me? Yeah. Speaker 2 (28:08): Yeah. I think people are pretty forward with some of their concerns and their worries. And depending on the capacity that you're seeing them, you see it in their body language. Right. But that's why physical therapy is so advantageous because that's where we Excel is helping people understand why something is valuable and then why it's safe. So I think it's about addressing those fears, head on getting at the heart of what they're concerned about and meeting them exactly where they're at. You know, maybe if they're not ready for that, we just try something else. In the meantime, until they're building up confidence, there's not a single person that I've worked with who has had a bone stress injury that doesn't have some of those fears pop up. It is a very real piece of a return to sport on any level. So, Speaker 1 (28:59): Yeah. Agreed. Excellent. Now, is there, is there anything that we missed, anything that we glossed over that you feel like you want to explain to the listeners a little bit more, or do you think we've covered, you know, sort of the high level basics on how you would look at one of these patients with a bone stress injury? Speaker 2 (29:20): Yeah, I think we covered most of it. You know, I think in, you know, reflecting back, it's really just understanding that we don't want to make assumptions about somebody's circumstance. You don't want to assume that somebody with bone stress injury has an eating disorder. I've worked with a number of people who have bone stress injuries, who do not have what I would consider disordered eating to the level that it's clinical. They just didn't understand how much fueling might be required for their activity. So I think in your subjective and in your relationship building with these people, it's important to keep that in mind that we don't need to medicalize everyone that walks in our door with a bone stress injury, but certainly we want to prepare them better for the future. I should also add that history of bone stress injury having had one in the past is the number one risk factor for a new bone stress injury. So in your history, in your subjective exam, that's another great question to ask. Have you ever had a bone stress injury before? If the answer is yes, you're already starting to postulate that that could be a possibility. Speaker 1 (30:33): Got it. Excellent. Excellent. Well, this was great, Ellie. I think that you gave the listeners a really, really robust understanding of looking at bone stress injuries from the point of view of a physical therapist. So thank you very much. This was great. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate being here. Of course. And then where can people find you? Speaker 2 (30:57): Yes. So you can find me on my website, www.cc wolf.com. It's brand new. I'm just going to say brand new France shine. You can also find me on Instagram handle of@theccwolf.com. And if you want to reach out to me personally, I love getting emails from folks it's Ellie, E L L I E at [inaudible] dot com. Speaker 1 (31:23): Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I have one final question for you and it's one that I ask everyone. And that's knowing where you are now in your career and your life. What advice would you give to your younger self? Let's say right out of PT school. Speaker 2 (31:39): There's no rush. There's no rush. I think, you know, as a young PT, it was like, I want to be the best now. And you have your entire life ahead of you to work and refine and you know, as long as you're working on something, you're working towards it. So there's no Speaker 1 (31:58): Excellent advice. I love that. So everyone, no rush, no rush to all those student physical therapists out there. Well, Ellie, thank you so much. This was great. I really appreciate your time. Thanks Karen and everyone. Thanks so much for listening. Have a great week and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.  

In this episode, CEO of Fyzio4U Rehab Staffing Group, Dr. Monique J. Caruth, talks about how she, as a businesswoman, reacted to Covid-19. Dr. Monique J. Caruth, DPT, is the CEO of Fyzio4U Rehab Staffing Group providing home health services in Maryland. She currently serves as the Southern District Chair of Maryland APTA and is the Secretary-elect of the Home Health Section of the APTA. She holds a Masters and PhD in Physical Therapy from Howard University, and she is a proud immigrant from Trinidad & Tobago. Today, we hear what it's like treating potentially Covid-positive patients, Monique tells us about the screening tool she developed, and we hear about the impact of the pandemic on mental health. Monique elaborates on the importance of Ellie Somers's list of notable PTs, and she talks about her experiences of losing patients. How did she pivot her business to keep it afloat? How has her perspective as both a clinician and a business owner helped her pivot her business? Monique tells us about obtaining PPE, offering Telehealth visits, and she gives some advice to Home Health PTs, all on today's episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways "We started seeing a spike in clients in mid-April when the hospitals didn't want to discharge patients to the nursing homes; they were discharging them directly home, so the majority of our clientele were Covid-positive patients." Monique has started compulsively disinfecting all surfaces. Monique's screening tool: Step 1: Check temperatures every morning before seeing a patient. Step 2: Ask questions about symptoms, traveling, and possible contact with Covid-positive people. Step 3: Ensure PPE is worn. "Gone are the days of spending extra time and doing extra work there." "One of the biggest things for therapeutic outcome is having a good relationship with your patients. Going into the home, you're probably the only person that they're getting to talk to most days. I saw the need to improve on soft skills and being approachable with your patients." "Some sort of contact needs to be maintained. Even though some patients may have been discharged, they would contact the physician via Telehealth visit and ask to be seen again." "Everyone deserves to get quality care." "Some people say, 'this person probably got Covid because they were being reckless'. You can slip-up, be as cautious as possible, and still get Covid." "We're going to see a huge wave of Covid cases coming in the next few months. With elective surgeries stopped, that's going to be our only client population. To prevent the furloughs from happening again, I would just advise to do the screenings, get the PPE, and go and see the patients." Why don't women get recognition in a profession that's supposed to be female-dominated? "People send out stuff to vote for top influencers in physical therapy. You tend to see the same names year after year, but you never see one that strictly focuses on women in physical therapy. I see many women doing great things in the physical therapy world, but because they don't have as many followers on Twitter or Instagram, they don't get the recognition that they deserve." "The thing that I love about Ellie's list is she put herself on it." "In doing stuff you have to be kind to yourself first and love yourself first. Many of us don't give ourselves enough praise for the stuff that we do." "You can't save everybody. When you just graduate as a therapist, you think you can save everyone and change the world – it takes time."   More About Dr. Caruth Dr. Monique J. Caruth, DPT, is the CEO of Fyzio4U Rehab Staffing Group providing home health services in Maryland. She currently serves as the Southern District Chair of Maryland APTA and is the Secretary-elect of the Home Health Section of the APTA. She holds a Masters and PhD in Physical Therapy from Howard University, and she is a proud immigrant from Trinidad & Tobago.     Suggested Keywords Therapy, Rehabilitation, Covid-19, Health, Healthcare, Wellness, Recovery, APTA, PPE, Change,   To learn more, follow Monique at: Website:          Fyzio4U Facebook:       @DrMoniqueJCaruth                         @fyzio4u Instagram:       @fyzio4u LinkedIn:         Dr Monique J Caruth Twitter:            @fyzio4u   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:               https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the Full Transcript Here  Speaker 1 (00:01): Hey, Monique. Welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy to have you on. Speaker 2 (00:06): Oh, thank you for inviting me. It's a pleasure to be on once again. Speaker 1 (00:10): Yes. Yes. I am very excited. And just so the listeners know, Monique is the newly minted secretary of the home health section of the APA. So congratulations. That's quite the honor. So congrats. Speaker 2 (00:26): Thank you very much. And Speaker 1 (00:28): We were just talking about, you know, what, what it was like being an elected position. I was on nominating committee for the private practice section. I just came off this year. Not nearly as much work as a board member. But my best advice was you'll you'll make great friendships and great relationships. And that's what you'll take forward aside from the fact that it's, you know, a little bit more work on top of the work you're already doing Speaker 2 (00:57): Well, I better get my bearings, right. So I will be on task from the one. Yeah. Speaker 1 (01:04): Yeah. I'm sure you will. And now, today, we're going to talk about how you as a business woman pivoted reacted to COVID. So we're, Monique's in Maryland, I'm in New York city. So for us East coasters, it really well, we know it hit New York city very hard in March in Maryland. When did that wave sort of hit you guys? Was it around the same time? Speaker 2 (01:33): I would say mid March, April because I had returned back to the rest of the first week of March. And then things just started going crazy. They were saying, Oh we have to be aware of COVID. But I was still seeing my clients that I had. Then we started getting calls saying that family members are worried that we'll be bringing COVID into the home. So they wanted to cancel visits. So we were getting a lot of constellations and then electric surgeries was shut down and that meant a huge drop in clients as well. Then we started seeing a spike in clients in mid April when the hospitals didn't want to discharge patients to the nursing homes, they were discharging them directly to home. So the majority of our clientele was COVID positive patients. Speaker 1 (02:36): And now as the therapist going in to see these patients, obviously you need proper protection. You need that PPE. So as we know, as all the headlines said, during the beginning of the pandemic, couldn't get PPE. So what do you do? Speaker 2 (02:54): Well, we were fortunate in Maryland that governor Hogan had PPE equipment ready at state health departments for agencies to collect. So they did ration them out. Also one of the agencies that I contract with MedStar hospital provided PPS to all the contractors and employees that were visiting COVID patients in the home. So we had the goggles face shield gowns mask, everything. There would be a specialized bag with vital sign equipment for that patient specifically that would be kept in that house and then taken back and disinfected at the end of the treatment. So we, we were shored through weekly conferences on what to do do South screenings and screening prior to each visit. So for my contractors, I developed a screening tool to ask questions if clients were having symptoms or if any family members in the home are having symptoms. And if they had exposure to anyone where COVID symptoms in the past 14 days, so we'll know what you will, that person as a person on, on the investigation or somebody who's COVID positive. So we had done the correct equipment when we go into the homes. Speaker 1 (04:18): And what does that, what does that look like? And what does that feel like for you as a therapist, knowing that you're going into a home with a patient who's COVID positive? I mean, I feel like that would make me very nervous and very anxious. So what was that like? Speaker 2 (04:36): To be quite honest, I was scared at first I try to avoid it as much as possible. But I got to a point where I needed to start seeing people or, you know, the business would go under. So you're nervous because nobody really knows how the disease will progress, what would happen. So it's a risk that you're taking. I, I probably developed compulsive disorder, making sure everything was like wiped down and clean. Even getting into the car, you know, this is affecting the stairway, the door handles double checking, making sure that they know the phone was wiped down. You know, as soon as you get in the house, after you strip washing from head to toe, making sure that, you know, you don't have anything that could possibly be brought onto the home. Speaker 1 (05:35): Right. And so when you say going back to that screening tool that you say you developed, what was, what was, what was, what did that entail for you for your contractors? Because I think this is something that a learning moment for other people, they can maybe copy your screening tool or get an idea of what they can do for their own businesses. Well, it's Speaker 2 (05:58): One that they we use to make sure that we don't have any symptoms. So checking the temperature every morning before you actually go to see a patient and asking the question, like certain questions, when, when you're scheduling a visit if they're filing in a coughing or sneezing when was the last time they got exposed or if they've been exposed to someone who traveled in the past 14 days or who's had any symptoms in the past 14 days. And so that was basically if they answered, no, then you be like, okay, fine. All you just need to do is wear the mask and the gloves and make sure that the patient that you're seeing wears the mask as well. Speaker 1 (06:41): Yeah. That's the big thing is making sure everybody's wearing a mask. Have you had any problems with people not wanting to wear a mask in their home when you go into treat them? Speaker 2 (06:51): We've had some, but most have been very compliant with, you know, wearing the mask because they realize that they, they, they do need the service. So like some patients who have like CHF or COPT that will have problems breathing while doing the exercises, I would allow them to, you know, take it off briefly, but I will step back six feet away and make sure that, you know, they get their respiration rate on the control. Then they put it back on. We'll do the exercise. Speaker 1 (07:22): Yeah. That makes sense. And are you taking, obviously taking vitals, pull socks and everything else temperature when you're going into the home? Speaker 2 (07:31): Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1 (07:34): Okay. And I love the compulsive cleaning and wiping down of things. I'm still wiping down. If I go food shopping, I wipe everything down before I bring it into my home. And I realize it's crazy. That's crazy making, but I started doing it back in March and it seems to be working. So I continue to do it. And I'm the only one in my apartment, but I still wipe down all the handles. Speaker 2 (08:02): I would say don't lose sight of it though. Speaker 1 (08:07): I am. And I love that. You're like wiping down the car. I rented two car. I rented a car twice since COVID started. And I like almost used a can of Lysol one time. Like I liked out the whole thing and then I let it air out. And this is like in a garage going to pick it up for a rental place. And then I have like, those Sani wipes, like the real hospital disinfectants. And then I wiped everything down with those. And then I got in the car. Speaker 2 (08:36): Well, I saw it's very difficult to find Lysol here right now. So when you do find it, it's like finding gold. I know, Speaker 1 (08:44): I, I found Lysol wipes. They had Lysol wipes at Walgreens and I was like I said, Lysol wipes. And she was, yes. I was like, Oh my gosh. And then last week I found Clorox wipes, but in New York you can only get one. You can't there's no, Speaker 2 (09:04): Yeah. Care's the same thing. Toilet paper, whites, Lysol owning one per customer. So yeah, Speaker 1 (09:09): One per customer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's yeah, I was a thank God. I, I found one can of Lysol, one can at the supermarket and it was like, there is a light shining down on it and it was like glowing, glowing in the middle of the market. I'm like, Oh but I love, I love that all the screening tools that you're using and I think this is a great example for other people who might be going to P into people's homes who may be COVID positive. And I also think it's refreshing for you to say, yeah, I was nervous. Speaker 2 (09:47): I'm not going, gonna lie. You know, you still get nervous because you never know, like someone could be positive. And you're going in there, but you always want to be cautious because you're like, Oh my God, I hope I didn't like allow this to be touched or you forgot to wipe this and stuff too. So Speaker 1 (10:07): How much time are you spending in the home? Because there is that sort of time factor to it as well, exposure time. Right. Speaker 2 (10:16): It depends on the severity of the condition. But anywhere from like 30 minutes to like 45 minutes. Speaker 1 (10:25): Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know gone, gone are the days of, you know, spending that extra time and doing all this extra, extra work there, because if they're COVID positive, then I would assume that the longer you're in an exposed area, even though you're fully covered in PPE, I guess it raises your Speaker 2 (10:48): Well. Yeah. And, and the, in the summer, I would say, you know, depending on the amount of work that you had to do, like if you had to do like bed mobility and transfers with the patient, you'd be sweating under that gong. So you really want to want to be in there like a full hour anyway. But they were advising to spend, you know, minimum 30 minutes and to reduce the risk of you contracting it as well, too. Speaker 1 (11:17): Makes sense. So, all right. Speaker 2 (11:20): Decondition so they really can't tolerate a full hour. Speaker 1 (11:23): Right? Of course, of course. Yeah. That makes, that makes good sense. So now we've talked about obtaining the proper PPE. What other, what other pivots, I guess, is the best way to talk about it? Did you feel you had to do as the business owner? What things maybe, are you doing differently now than before? Speaker 2 (11:49): Well, as I said, I had to start seeing most of the cases to make sure that people were still being seen and like using telehealth. We started doing that. So eventually, well sky came on board to offer telehealth visits. So we were able to document telehealth visits as well. And people are responsive to those which worked out pretty well. So with some cases we'll do a one visit in the home and then do the follow-up visit telehealth. So one visit being in a home one weekend, one telehealth, if it was a twice a week patient. So that would also reduce the risk of exposure. Speaker 1 (12:40): Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Now let's talk about keeping the business afloat, right? So yes, we're seeing patients. Yes. We're helping people, but we were also running a business. We got people to pay, we got people on payroll, you gotta pay yourself, you got to keep the business afloat to help all of these patients. So what was the most challenging part of this as from the eye of the business owner? Not the clinician. Speaker 2 (13:07): Well, you, you get fearful that you may not have enough patients to see, to cover previous expenses. So that was one of the reasons I did apply for the PPP loan. And as I mentioned to you before I was successful in acquiring that probably like around July and that, you know, cover like eight weeks of payroll, if that but it was strictly dedicated to payroll, nothing else. So everything else I had to do was to cover the bills and stuff, because that was just for payroll. Some of the agencies that we contracted for were having difficulty maintaining reimbursing. So that became a challenge as well, too. So what does that mean? Exactly. so when we contract with agencies, they're supposed to be paying us for this, the rehab services that we provide. Some of them were late with their payments as well, but I still had to pay my contractors on time. Speaker 1 (14:19): Got it. Okay. Got it. Oh, that's a pickle. Speaker 2 (14:22): Yeah, that's the thing. So that meant like sometimes some, you know, weeks of payroll, I would have to probably go over the lesson and making sure that the contractors were paid. Speaker 1 (14:37): And how about having a therapist? Furloughs? Did you have any of that? Did you know, were there any people, like maybe therapists in your area who were furloughed from their jobs and coming to you, like, Hey, do you have anything for me? Can you help? What was that situation? Speaker 2 (14:54): Yes. So I started getting free pretty among the calls about having to pick up to do work because they were followed or laid off. We currently have one contractor was working for ATI full-time that got followed. Now she's doing the home health full-time right now as a contractor we have some that are still doing it PRN, even though they went back to like their full-time jobs. But yes, we had people looking for cases to see, just to supplement the the income. Then we had a reverse situation where some people more comfortable getting the unemployment check than seeing patients at all. So, so that you had different scenarios, but it wasn't that we were in need of therapists during that time because people were willing to work. Speaker 1 (16:00): Yeah. Excellent. Excellent. And from the, I guess from your perspective being owner and clinician, so you're seeing patients you're running a business where there any sort of positive surprises that came out of this time for you, something that, that maybe made you think, Hmm. Maybe I'm going to do things a little differently moving forward? Speaker 2 (16:30): Yes. incorporating more telehealth visits. Definitely one of them and using the screening to there it helps in a lot of situations. So it makes you aware of what you might possibly be going into when you're going into the home. And I am realizing that there is one of the biggest things for therapeutic outcome is having a good relationship with your patients. So since most people aren't locked down, a lot of the patients that we do see they live by themselves, or they may just have one or two people in the home and they may possibly be working. So when going into the home, you're probably the only person that they're getting to talk to most days. So you, I saw the need to improve on soft skills and being approachable with your patients. So that was definitely a, a big thing for me. Speaker 1 (17:46): And how is that manifesting itself now? So now, you know, you figure we're what April, may, June, July, August, September, October, November, December eight, nine months in, so kind of having that realization of like, boy, this is this, I may be the only person this person speaks to today, all week, perhaps. I mean, that's can be a little, that can be a big responsibility. So how do you, how do you deal with that now that you're, you know, 10 months into this pandemic and yeah. How do, how do you feel about that now? Speaker 2 (18:29): Well, I still feel like some sort of contact needs to be maintained. So even though some patients may have been discharged they would contact the physician via a telehealth visit and asked to, you know, can you see it again? But you still maintain contact, make sure that, you know, you dropped a line and say, Hey, just following up to see if you're okay. That sort of stuff. So they, they will remember and they'll keep coming. Speaker 1 (18:58): Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. It is such a responsibility, especially for those older patients who are, who are alone most of the time. I mean, it is it's, you know, we hear more and more about the mental health effects that COVID has had on a lot of people. So and I don't think that we're immune to those effects either. I mean, how, how do you deal with the stress of, because there's gotta be an underlying stress with all of this, right. So what do you do, how do you deal with that stress? Speaker 2 (19:38): Well, one was warmer. I would try to at least take the weekends off to go do something or those and like being around people where you can, you know, laugh and, you know, watch movies, you know, goof up, you know, I have to think about work, those things help. Speaker 1 (19:59): Yeah. Just finding those outlets that you can turn it off a little bit. And I love taking the weekends off every once in a while. I have to do that. I have to remember to do that. And I'm so jealous that you're just, you just came off of a nice little vacay as well. Speaker 2 (20:19): Well it was needed. I probably won't be taking one on till probably sometime next year, so yeah. But it was, it was definitely needed. Speaker 1 (20:32): Yeah. I think I'm going to, I think I'm going to do that too. All right. So anything else, any other advice that you may have for those working in home health when it comes to going to see those during these COVID times, whether the patient has, has had, has, or has had COVID what advice would you give to our fellow home health? Pts? Speaker 2 (21:00): Well, I know I've been hearing quite a lot of PT saying that they didn't want to treat COVID patients and they should not be subjected to treating COVID patients, but as we get more awareness of what the diseases and we take the necessary precautions, I think we will be okay. Cause everyone deserves to get quality care. And I know some people will say this person probably got COVID because they were being reckless and stuff. I mean, you can slip up, be as cautious as possible and still step up and get COVID. That doesn't mean you should be denying someone to receive that treatment just to make sure that you're protected when you do go in. Because we're gonna see a huge wave of COVID cases coming in the next few months and with elective surgeries being stopped and everything like that, that's going to be our only client population and to prevent the fools and the layoffs from happening again, I would just advise them, you know, do the screenings, make sure you get your PP and we'll see the patients. It's it's not as bad as, you know, they make it seem. Speaker 1 (22:16): Yeah. Excellent advice. Excellent advice. And now we're going to really switch gears here. Okay. So this is going to be like like a, a three 60 turnaround, but before we went, before we went on the air, Monique and I were talking about just some things that, that you wanted to talk about and recent happenings in the PT world, and you brought up sort of a list of influential PTs that was compiled by our lovely friend Ellie summers. So go ahead and talk to me about why that list was meaningful to you and why you kind of wanted to talk about it. Speaker 2 (23:03): Well, you know, for the past few years I've been noticing like people send us stuff to vote for like top influencers and, and physical therapy and stuff. Do you tend to see the same names like yesteryear? But you've never seen one that just strictly focuses on a woman in physical therapy. And I see a lot of women doing great things in the physical therapy world, but because they do not have as many followers on like Twitter or Instagram, they don't get the recognition that they deserve. For example, Dr. Lisa van who's I think she's doing incredible, incredible work with the Ujima Institute. I actually consider her a mentor of mine. She, she calms me down when I try to get fired. What's it and stuff, Speaker 1 (24:03): Not you. I don't believe it. Speaker 2 (24:06): So I appreciate her for that. So for Ellie to actually construct this list and, you know, I've, I've been observing her, her tweets on her posts for a while, and I see that she questions. Why is it that, you know, women do not get the recognition in a profession that is supposed to be female dominated. So for her to do the side, you know, it was, it was really thoughtful and needed. Speaker 1 (24:40): Yeah. Yeah. And you know, her shirt talk that she gave at the women in PT summit couple of years ago, I think it was the second year we did, it was so powerful. Like everybody was crying like in tears, she's crying, everyone else is crying. And that was the year Sharon Dunn was our keynote speaker. She got everybody crying. It was like everybody was crying the whole time, but crying in like in, in not, not in a sad way, but crying in a way because the stories were so powerful and really hit home and we just wanted to lift her up and support her. But yeah, and you know, the thing that I love the most about Ellie's list is she put herself on it. Yes. How many times have you made a list and put yourself on it? I can answer me. Never, never, never in a million years, have I made a list of like influential people to put myself on it? Never know. So I saw that and I was like, good for you. Good for you. Speaker 2 (25:44): Because you know, sometimes you, you and, and doing and doing stuff, you, you have to be kind to yourself first, love yourself first. And, and her doing that, I, I believe she's demonstrating that that is something that's that needs to be done. A lot of us, we don't give ourselves enough praise for the stuff that we do. Speaker 1 (26:05): Absolutely. Absolutely. It's sort of, it's a nice lead by example moment from her. So I really appreciated that list and, and yes, Dr. Vanhoose is like a queen. She's amazing. And every time, every time I hear her speak or, or I get the chance to talk with her through the Ujima Institute to me, it's amazing how someone can have the calm that she has and the power she has at the same time. Right. I mean, I don't have that. I don't, I even know how to do that, but she just, like, she's just gets it, you know? I don't know if that's a gift. It's a gift. Yeah, totally, totally. Okay. So as we wrap things up here, I'm going to ask you the one question that I ask everyone, and that is knowing where you are now in your life and in your career. What advice would you give to your younger self you're? You're that wide-eyed fresh face PT, just out of PT school. Speaker 2 (27:16): You can't save everybody. You can't save everybody nice. When you, when you just graduate as a therapist, you think you can save everyone a change, a wall. It takes time. Speaker 1 (27:33): Yeah. Oh, excellent answer. I don't think I've heard that one yet, but I think, I think it's true that having, and it's not, that's not a defeatist. That's not a defeatist thinking at all. Yeah. Speaker 2 (27:54): I think this year have thing come to more deaths as a therapist with patients than I have probably in the 12 years that I've been practicing. I'm sorry. Yeah, because you know, you do patients that you get attached to, you know, you have this person passed away and stuff like that. So it's good while it lasts, but to protect yourself mentally and emotionally, you just realize that you can save everybody. Yeah. I think this fund DEMEC is teaching us that too. Speaker 1 (28:35): Yeah. A hundred percent. Thank you for that. And now money, where can people find you website? Social media handles Speaker 2 (28:47): Social media handles are the same on Twitter and Instagram at physio for U F Y, Z I O. Number for you Facebook slash physio for you as well. And www physio for you.org is the website Speaker 1 (29:01): Awesome. Very easy. And just so everyone knows, I'll have links to all of those in the show notes under this episode at podcast dot healthy, wealthy, smart.com. So if you want to learn more about Monique, about her business I suggest you follow her on Instagram and Twitter, cause there's always great conversations and posts going on there initiated by Monique on anything from home health to DEI, to words of wisdom. So definitely give her a follow. So Monique, thank you so much for coming on. Let's see. Last time was a really long time. I can't believe it, it seems like 10 years ago, but I think it was really like three, three years ago. I think it was DSM like three years ago though. It seems like forever ago. So thank you for coming on again. I really appreciate it. Speaker 2 (29:56): You're welcome. And thank you for having me. Okay. Absolutely. And everyone needs to be safe. Okay. Yeah. Speaker 1 (30:01): Yes, you too. And everyone else, thank you so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.  

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Dr. Shannon Leggett, PT, DPT to talk about how to infuse yoga principles into physical therapy practice. Dr. Legget is a manually-based orthopedic physical therapist with 21 years of experience. I understand the complex nature of pain and the necessity to use a comprehensive, individualized treatment approach. In this episode, we discuss: Shannon's journey to becoming a yoga teacher How to infuse the principles of yoga, not just the moves or poses, into PT practice Cases studies in applying yoga principles in PT  The importance of breathwork  How to be more present through yoga  And much more!    Resources: Shannon's Instagram Shannon's LinkedIn Restorative Yoga  A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode! Learn more about Net Health Therapy for Private Practice here.    More About Dr. Leggett: I am a manually-based orthopedic physical therapist with 21 years of experience. I understand the complex nature of pain and the necessity to use a comprehensive, individualized treatment approach. I perform a thorough evaluation looking at movement, strength, flexibility and balance, as well as lifestyle. I believe that how we live influences our ability to heal. I combine my extensive background of treating musculoskeletal injuries with my training in mind-body techniques to formulate a holistic plan of care   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:                https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the full transcript here: Speaker 1 (00:07): Welcome to the healthy, wealthy, and smart podcast. Each week we interview the best and brightest in physical therapy, wellness, and entrepreneurship. We give you cutting edge information. You need to live your best life. Healthy, wealthy, and smart. The information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as personalized medical advice. And now here's your host, Dr. Karen Litzy. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I am your host parents in today's episode is brought to you by Speaker 2 (00:41): Net health. So net health now has net health therapy for private practice. This is a cloud-based all-in-one EMR solution for managing your practice. It handles scheduling documentation, billing, reporting needs. Plus lots more in one super easy to use package. And right now net health is offering a special deal for healthy, wealthy, and smart listeners. If you complete a demo with the net health team, you'll get a hundred dollars towards lunch for your staff. Visit net health.com/see to get started, and you'll also get access to free resources for PTs like eBooks on demand, webinars, and business tools. Once again, that's net health.com/l I T Z Y my last name now onto today's episode, we are going to be talking about how you can infuse yoga into your orthopedic physical therapy practice. And this is more than just infusing some yoga moves, but really infusing the background and philosophy of yoga into your physical therapy practice and to help us navigate that I'm really happy to have on the program, Dr. Speaker 2 (01:53): Shannon Leggett, she is an orthopedic, a manual physical therapy with 20 years of experience. She understands the complex nature of pain and the necessity to use a comprehensive individualized treatment approach. She performs thorough evaluations, looking at movements, strength, flexibility, and balance, as well as lifestyle. Shannon believes that how we live influences our ability to heal. So she has been able to successfully combine her extensive background of treating musculoskeletal injuries with their training and mind body techniques to formulate a holistic plan of care. And in this episode, we talk about just that, how to infuse yoga into your regular physical therapy treatments. And like I said, it goes beyond just some yoga poses and stretches, but really infusing the background and the philosophy of yoga in with your patient in with your patient treatments, but also with infusing your whole philosophy of physical therapy and how you work with your patients. So a big thanks to Shannon and everyone Speaker 3 (03:00): Enjoyed today's episode. Hey, Shannon, welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to have you on. Thanks, Ken. I'm really happy to be here. So today we're going to talk about how you have been able to infuse yoga and not just yoga the movements, but yoga, the principles into your physical therapy practice. And just for the listeners, I actually took one of Shannon's yoga classes online and it was wonderful. So thank you for having me joining. Yeah, it was great. So before we get into how you do this within your orthopedic physical therapy practice, I would love for you to let the listeners know how you yourself came into the practice of yoga. Well, it's actually kind of a funny story. I was probably in my mid thirties, which I'm not going to tell you how long ago that was. I'm not dating myself here, but I ended a relationship and I think as so many women do, it's like you either cut or dye your hair or you try something new. Okay. Speaker 3 (04:06): So trying to rock the pixie cut back then, like, I couldn't do anything with my hair. So I, I walked into my first yoga class of the New York health and racquet club on first Avenue on the upper East side. I know it, and there I was. And now that I know yoga, it was an Iyengar class, which is very alignment based very slow, very methodical holding poses. And I remember waking up the next day and being so incredibly sore and like a muscles. I mean, basically I should know what the muscles are, but like, Oh my God, that's what those feel like when you use them for long periods of time and the physical practice that, that sensation, that feeling kind of kept me going back for more. And then as time went on, I started to recognize the mental aspects of the practice that whatever I was walking into the yoga studio with or holding onto was kind of magically disappeared at the end of the class. Speaker 3 (05:13): And I am an anxiety sufferer, which I only have come to understand and realize what that was. And till like in a, within the last 10 years and yoga then became a very strong coping strategy for me. I found being connected to my body and connected to my person and putting an hour of self-care aside for me was absolutely essential. So it's definitely become one of my go-to tools to kind of handle the day in and day out stress of living, working in, in New York city. So I would think, especially now, during the times, yeah, hands down now it is. And I, and I was home for a couple of months, like everybody else. And it was, I was on my mat every single day. And then decided while I was home, I was like, well, why not see who else wants to practice? Speaker 3 (06:14): But yeah, so I, it has always been in the last like 12, 15 years, very much part of my life on a personal standpoint, it has led me to travel. I've met great people, I've taken amazing classes and explored studios in different forms. But it wasn't until probably within the last five or six years that I started to connect some dots professionally, right? Like how, how could this fit into what I do professionally? I, in terms of like a stretching standpoint, a strength building standpoint, yoga is amazing, but what about the body, the mind body connection. And I started to notice trends with a lot of my female patients I've been treating in Midtown for most of my career. And women would be walking into the clinic with your like standard orthopedic injuries, shoulder impingement, low back pain, and their response to an injury that would not necessarily be anything like, okay, just the pain was off the charts and difficult to get under control and not necessarily responding to what you would consider standard practice and you start to talk to them and they have fertility. Speaker 3 (07:38): They've had fertility issues. They've had gastrointestinal issues. They're working full time. They are full time moms too, trying to be the best they can be in both realms and self-care is last. They don't sleep well, they don't eat well. And I realized that the stress component was driving their inability to heal or meaning their ability to, you know, kind of get back to what they enjoyed. And I just was said to myself, well, how can I as a clinician kind of break into that stress cycle, how can I maybe help them Crump, you know, calm down some of their chronic systemic inflammation, how can we help them with negative thought patterns and, and whatnot. And that's not something that we traditionally are taught in physical therapy school and it, and is it my scope of practice and kind of going back and forth. Speaker 3 (08:38): So I started taking some continuing ed classes in the yoga world, and I've done some work with a clinical psychologist in Boston who treats her anxiety and depression patients with, with yoga and bodywork techniques. And, and she's a ton of research as to how mindfulness begins in the body that studies have shown that, that kind of short circuits, that stress response in your brain. So that kind of led me in that direction. And then I walked into my restorative yoga training, which I had never really taken, but it intrigued me. And because I just kind of felt intuitively that it was going to be the, like the last, not the last piece, because there's never a last piece, but a piece of the puzzle that I was missing. And it basically is how we can go from our sympathetic or fight or flight part of our nervous system into our rest and digest our parasympathetic sympathetic nervous system and how much our nervous system can drive, how we feel. Speaker 3 (09:41): And so often we have patients with chronic neck pain, chronic low back pain, like the massage, they feel better for an hour. It comes back and just this idea of chronic tension versus chronic tightness. And what restorative training does is it brings you into yoga shapes, but they're basically supported with props and it's a guided meditation and breath work. And as you move through the shape or state in the shape, you can flip the switch that vagus nerve stimulator, vagus nerve, and move into that rest and digest part of the nervous system. And I mean, in theory, like, okay, great. But four days of training and I always have neck pain, always. And I just attributed to everything we do. And that role was that from holidays and, you know, that's stressful time, but the month of December, yeah. Within four days, my neck pain was gone. Speaker 3 (10:52): It was incredible to me, how much of that pain was actually chronic tension and not necessarily this orthopedic tightness. So it was a kind of an aha moment for me in terms of what patients might carry. And I have used the teaching, the methodology in my treatment sessions, patients don't necessarily understand clients don't necessarily understand that they hold habitual tension. And so much of us, like when we say like, Oh, we have to relax. Like we sit down on the couch and drink a glass of wine and, you know, watch eight hours of Netflix. We're like, we're totally just chilling. But yet, like are holding our belly. Like our shoulders are up here, like clenching our jaw. Like we don't even know because we're relaxing. And part of, part of the restorative yoga is understanding where those patterns are. You get to know your body. Like for me, I'm a draw puncher, I'm a shoulder up late year. And, and, and once you understand that you kinda like kinda, I do like some check-ins during the day, like where are my shoulders? Where's my jaw. And taking a deep breath and kind of like letting that go. Speaker 4 (12:11): Yeah. As, as you say, this I'm unclenching my jaw a little bit. I'm a jock ledger also. So as you say this, I'm like, relax, the jaw, drop the shoulders. I am the same way. Well, it's, it's pretty amazing because it sounds like for you, and this happens, I've heard this over and over again, that it's this sort of personal experience. You have that aha moment. And then you say to yourself, well, I'm a clinician I'm trying to help people. So what can I do to improve my understanding as a clinician to help my patients? So you go, you take restorative yoga training, and then you are able to infuse that into your therapy sessions. And we were joking a bit before we went on the air. And Shannon said, well, it's not like I'm having someone who just had a labral tear, do a shoulder stand. Like that's not what it means to do, like yoga and PT. So when people think of yoga and infusing yoga into PT, I bet a lot of people think, Oh, you must do a lot of downward dogs and a lot of shoulder stands, but can you explain for a little bit more about what, what that means in, in your PT practice? Speaker 3 (13:26): Absolutely. I, if somebody comes in at, like, I was thinking a case, a case study, let's do I have a frozen shoulder? And how much of that again, tension versus tightness, how much of that tightness is being driven by the nervous system? So I'm, I always ask about stress levels. What's going on at home at work. You know, things that people do to, to, to maybe calm down or relax. And I might say, Hey, we're going to have a little bit of an experiment today. Okay. I am gonna prop you. We, I pull off of the blankets and the pillows and I'll put them in a very gentle chest opener because oftentimes you're doing a ton of stretching with a frozen shoulder or a lot of soft tissue work. If there's a level or component to stress or anxiety to that, that cranking is just going to cause your, your nervous system just clamp down and, and, and they're going to, you're going to get the exact opposite of it. Speaker 4 (14:32): Yeah, absolutely. And even like, we know if you're cranking on an arm and the, those first three to six months. No good, no good, no good. Not, not good for the patient, not good for the shoulder, Speaker 3 (14:46): Not at all. So I might spend a couple of sessions with a patient props, kind of guiding their nervous system into letting go. Typically the, you know, shoulders are rounded, pecks are tight, upper traps. So if I can kind of guide them into relaxing, letting go, I typically find a little bit more space. They're a little more trusting of me to like, maybe move them. Maybe I can modulate their pain a little bit. So they will be a little bit more, or a little less fearful of movement themselves because it's a big deal I'm to us are in pain and they don't want to move. They don't want to go in any direction that that is going to maybe reproduce their symptoms. Speaker 4 (15:35): Of course. Yeah. And, and so much goes into that sort of bucket when you're talking about pain. So there's so much that can fill that up. You know, we look at things through a bio-psycho-social lens, you know, you're asking about sleep and stress and all that goes into this, this sort of bucket. And then it gets to the point where the nervous system senses danger. And it's like, okay, that's it. We're gonna it's time. You know, the brain makes that decision. It's dangerous enough pain, right? Yep. Speaker 3 (16:06): We're going to fight, we're going to flight or we're going to freeze and think about a frozen shoulder, how much of that could be nervous system driven. And you know, and also too, just bringing in some of the mindfulness component of yoga, you know, the yoga sutras, which are kind of like the blueprint of yoga, the philosophy of yoga, the first Sutra is yoga is now that is, I mean, that is mindfulness. That is in the moment. That is the definition right there. So I use that idea of mindfulness or the tool of mindfulness to bring in throughout the day. Like I mentioned earlier, like doing a little check-in with yourself, oftentimes with my patients, I'll say, you know what, in the midst of your day, when you're like, Oh my God, if one more person calls me or how am I going to get these emails done? Speaker 3 (16:54): Or like, I have to make the train to get home to the kids. No, one's competing now. I want you to tap in or tune into your body and come back and tell me where you hold your attention. I want to know, are your shoulders up? And your ears are your jaw clincher. So often, do you hold your belly in? You think about our patients with urinary stress incontinence with low back pain. You know, I mean, if you're clenching your belly all day, that's, that is going to be, maybe unclenching will be part of the solution. So that idea of being present of checking in that is a tool I use throughout the day with my patients. That's great. And you know, with so many we're so externally focused, everything is outside. We're always 10 steps ahead. We just become very disconnected with our physical being. And I love bringing patients back into their body to teach them something that they didn't even know. You know? And I, I love when people are like, Oh my, my quadriceps. And they're like holding their hamstrings. Like we have this tool that we've been given this machine that we've been given, but nobody really educates us on how to use it or what it's about or how it moves. And I love bringing that idea of mindfulness and mindful movement into the physical therapy practice. Yeah, Speaker 4 (18:17): I think it's great. And the other thing, as you were talking about putting people into these different restorative poses that can then be transferred over to a home exercise program, Speaker 3 (18:27): Easy. I mean, honestly, like laying down on the floor, throwing your feet over the couch, the restorative doesn't even have to have props. It's basically the idea. Now don't get me wrong. The props are delicious, but the restorative is learning how to let go of that tension. As you breathe, it's letting the ground hold you up. It's letting the couch hold you up. It's letting, it's starting to kind of give into something else. You know, how much of us, like we put a coat of armor on every day, like, especially now to get through the day. And so in order to survive, we, we put on armor. Yeah. It's just in a physical structure. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. On the floor, legs on the couch, close your eyes and just breathe. And honestly, that's yoga. Speaker 4 (19:21): It doesn't have to be too complicated, Speaker 3 (19:23): Not at all. And sometimes when I start to bring things up, people like, Oh my God. Cause they think Instagram, they think poses, they think exactly very like thin, cute people, like by a pool. And it's just, it's mindfulness. It's the breath it's awareness. It doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be twisty and credit. And I think, I think my practice is in twisting. Speaker 4 (19:48): Yeah. I think that's good to know, because I think a lot of people will look at yoga and they look at the show of it. You know what I mean? The spectacle, the show of, wow. Look at this person being able to, you know, do a handstand or a headstand and look at this and look at the positions. They can go, Oh, I can never do that. So Speaker 3 (20:06): I'm just not going to do it exactly like that. It's not for me. Or people feel ashamed and mean, especially like the, the men, they will not walk into a class because they don't want their I'd be embarrassed. And like, no one is looking at you. No one. And that's the thing I love about a studio. Like I'm an orthopedic physical therapist. I have, I'm not athletic. I love athleticism. I am not athletic. So when I love about the studio is like, I can move. I can breathe. I can exercise. No one's watching. Yeah. It's true. It's like in their own little world and that's speaks to the introvert in me like nobody's business. Speaker 4 (20:49): Yeah. Although sometimes I will say, if I go to a class, I will be looking at other people that being said one of the best yoga classes I ever did, we were blindfolded. All of that's extraordinary because it was a, it was a charity class for a charity called Achilles and Achilles supplies. Pairs runners who are hard of sight. Yeah. To do all different kinds of races from a 5k up to a marathon. And because the people they serve are usually blind. We did the whole class folded and I was thinking, Oh my God, I'm going to fall over because you know, vision is a big part of balance, but it was the best yoga class I'd ever taken because I wasn't comparing myself to everyone else. The instructor was giving really clear instructions and my balance was better because I was actually paying attention to myself versus looking at what everybody else was doing. Speaker 4 (21:46): Absolutely. And you really had to talk about a journey inward. Yeah. Right. And having to be in touch with like what your own body was doing and how you're going to assimilate. Yeah. Yeah. It was really interesting. The only weird part was the woman next to me, kept trying to hold my hand and I had to keep like, I'm like, what are you doing? And then after it, she was like, Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were my friend. I'm like, I kind of kept taking me out of the vibe a little bit, but that is a loving community. Community is a loving community. Yes. But I really, I really loved the way I felt after that. And it, it, you know, it really got me thinking like, wow, this is something that I should be doing with my patients when we're just working on general movement is kind of have them close their eyes and really feel the movement and get into it. But now let's you, so you talked about some of the the tenants of yoga. One is yoga is now being very mindful. What other aspects of yoga aside from, you know, positioning people, restorative, what other tenants of yoga are you using with your clients or with your patients? Speaker 2 (22:59): And on that note, we're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsor. And we'll be right back with Shannon's answer net health therapy for private practice as a cloud-based all in one EMR solution for managing your practice. That's right. One piece of software that handles all of your scheduling documentation, billing and reporting needs. Plus lots more and one super easy to use package right now, net health is offering a special deal for healthy, wealthy, and smart listeners completed demo with the net health team and get a hundred dollars towards lunch for your staff. Visit net health.com/see, to get started and get access to free resources for PTs like eBooks on demand, webinars, and business tools. Once again, that's net health.com/l I T Z Y Speaker 3 (23:49): I definitely, yes, I use the restorative, but I also use a little bit more of the, the poses, the strength building poses, the even some small sequences. I, I look at maybe look at the system as a whole, right? The fascial system, everything is connected especially my patients that sit all day. So that front body, everything is tight. Tip lecturers, chest front neck. I will give them maybe sequences of some easy poses that they can do at home to open that whole space. My runners runners don't like to stretch. They just want to run. So I always say, okay, we need to do some flexibility. And some mobility work to keep you running healthy. There's nothing better than yoga as far as I'm concerned. Thank for the buck. Especially looking through like fascial systems, you give someone a downward facing dog. Speaker 3 (24:54): Well, they're opening their shoulders, calves, hamstrings, low back. They're working on their core. So I love, I love the physical poses to help my runners, my sequences, my restorative, my breath work. How could I forget my breath work pranayama? Right? What's one of the eight limb path of yoga is breath work. And I pretty much teach every single patient who walks into my space to breathe. It is one of the most powerful tools that we have to connect to ourselves to calm our nervous system. But again, our low back pain patients, our neck pain patients, how many neck pain patients do we see that are breathing they're with their accessory muscles. So using maybe even to dossena another pose mountain pose, which is basically standing straight it's posture. So everybody learns to Dawson. And then from 2000, and once we get into that, that rib cage of pelvis alignment, we work on our breath and diaphragmatic breath, finding the belly, maybe then connecting to pelvic floor, especially for my women. Speaker 3 (26:15): So I definitely use Tadasana as my, like one point as to finding, finding a good position, finding a good home base and breath and how they can use breath work to help them with their stress response. And part of what I love is sometimes I'll teach my core patients and I don't even tell them what the breathing like. I'll tell them, listen, you know, reading is important for core, and it might with your neck pain and low back pain. So we're just, that's what we're going to start. And what I love is when a couple of visits later, they're like, you know, we feel really calm. I feel calm after I do that. And I'm starting, and I'm starting to use that like during the day. And I secretly love that Speaker 4 (27:02): Really giving tools that they can use throughout the day and that they can also see the difference. And we know that once people see the difference in the tools, we give them, they'll use them. Speaker 3 (27:13): Yes. And that's how I listen. Some people I know right off the bat that I can like infuse and introduce yoga and they're going to be all for it. Other people I know that are going to be skeptical. So that's, Speaker 4 (27:25): That's a good point. You bring up because a lot of people like yoga. So how do you, and so do you use then use the breath work to kind of open the Gates a little bit Speaker 3 (27:34): Sometimes, or I'll say, Hey, you know, the yoga has some amazing, you know, stretches that might help you with what's going on. And because they stretch multiple fascial systems, they can be very effective or, you know, not effective, but efficient everybody in the city wants to be efficient. True. So if you give them a couple of things and then they become more curious or I'll work on some mindfulness, or I will educate them, maybe how stress response can be driving their pain how having a hobby or movement can like also be an effective part of their healing process. So I, I kind of sneak it in, in, in different ways. Got it, got it. No, that makes a lot of sense. And also too, for like my, my runners, I have run a bunch of half-marathons. I did in New York city marathon in 2018, yoga is a tremendous compliment to running and read, like, it got me to the finish line. I don't think I'll ever do it again, but you never know. I've never say never, never say, never say never. So that's where, you know, anytime you tell a runner that you could help them be better, faster, stronger of they're onboard. Yeah. Very, very true. Speaker 4 (29:04): Now, what advice would you have to other physical therapists or other clinicians Speaker 3 (29:10): Who maybe Speaker 4 (29:11): Are interested in yoga or interested in infusing yoga into their practice? What are some good starting points Speaker 3 (29:20): For them? I would say, start taking some classes, yourself, understand how it makes you feel, understand the language, the sequencing the poses, you know, I, I think experience is one of the teachers. I learned by doing things in my own body and that makes me a much more effective clinician sometimes. So I would say, start taking some classes, notice the benefit yourself, listen to maybe even how yoga teachers instruct. I learned some of the best cues and best instruction from some of the yoga teachers that I have gone and work with. And starting to maybe infuse it a little bit in your sessions, in your, in your PT sessions and see how the patients respond. And then from there, there are continuing ed classes out there for physical therapists who don't necessarily want to take the 200 hour training that can learn how to use yoga in healthcare. Speaker 3 (30:30): Yeah. I took a, a great one threes, physio, yoga they are amazing. They're, they're great to follow on Instagram, if you want to learn a little bit more. I have, but they have they just did a class that I took, do I want to, no, it was maybe last year again, it's the whole thing of how to infuse yoga and physical therapy. So there there's plenty of stuff out there. There's plenty of PTs out there that are, that are doing this, that have Instagram pages. So just starting to follow, take classes easy. That's what I would do. It is so easy. It's easy. Yeah. I mean, I didn't do my yoga training until, you know, 2016, but I was using the poses and using some tenets like long, long before I was just from my own experience. Speaker 4 (31:22): Yeah. No, I love the advice to kind of take it yourself, see how you see how it feels. Cause listen, you may think you want to infuse it into your treatment and then you may take it yourself and be like, Oh, I don't, I'm not feeling this. And that's okay. You can, you can. Speaker 3 (31:37): Okay. Absolutely. It doesn't resonate with everybody. Speaker 4 (31:40): That's right. That's right. That's right. And that's okay. Awesome. So now before we kind of wrap things up, I think we, we have your one biggest takeaway is to start taking yoga classes yourself. Anything else that you want the listeners to walk away from this conversation? Speaker 3 (32:03): There are many modalities out there to help the healing process. And there are many practitioners that have different ideas to help you get there. And I think that I encourage people to find what works for them. And that sometimes some of the less traditional practices can be extraordinarily helpful. I mean, I think I personally think yoga is an extraordinarily powerful tool from the mind body perspective, we understand how much chronic pain does become a central nervous system, you know, issue that it's not just all biomechanical. So we do have to treat the whole person. We have to treat mind as well as body. And I think that yoga can be a very powerful tool, the combination and to, to, to seek and to try and to find what resonates and find what helps you. And to just, you know, it's not ever linear, it's not ever a straight trajectory. Healing is totally a journey and to not give up and just because you've tried one thing, does it mean nothing? Nothing is going to work, update, curious, stay active stay moving, find something you love to do. It doesn't have to be yoga, but move and movement is meditative. It's mindful. You know, the body, the body responds to movement. Speaker 4 (33:53): Absolutely. And now before we wrap things up, this is a question I ask everyone knowing where you are now in your life and in your career, what advice would you give to your younger self who graduated right out of PT school, a newly minted PT. Speaker 3 (34:11): I wish I had forged my own path earlier. I wish that I had listened to, you know, nothing has ever really fit for me until I brought yoga into my profession. It speaks to me. It makes sense to me. I wish I had, you know, when we did the webinar with sturdy, like let your freak flag fly, you know, be like, don't be like everybody else. I wish I had listened to that earlier, like towards my own path to not try to not try to fit myself into someone else's business model. Yeah. It's okay to want something different. It's okay. To think outside the box. It's okay. Speaker 4 (35:01): And sometimes, Speaker 3 (35:02): You know, what, what you think at first is going to work doesn't and then you find another tool. Totally have a huge toolbox. Yeah. Speaker 4 (35:12): Oh, I know. That was such good advice, you know? Cause I think so often, especially in physical therapy, as we discussed during that webinar, it's like physical therapists tend to be type a, we want to, you know, we want to be the best we wanted. We want to do good. We want to help others. And so we tend to kind of just stay in the lane totally. And are afraid to like, let the freak flag fly if you want is very hard to say, but it's true. It's true. And I thank you for reminding me and reminding the listeners of that now, where can people find you? Yes. Be true to yourself and where can people find you speaking? You can find me on LinkedIn and Instagram and what's your handle on Instagram? That's funny. That is, that is my nickname. My family, my nieces call me Shanny. Speaker 4 (36:03): S H a N N Y O G a P T and my C O very long. Very cute. I get it. I get it. Shen yoga, PTM, YC. Perfect. Perfect. Awesome. So people can find you there and we will have links to all of what Shannon spoke about today, resources and things like that. We'll put them all into the show notes at podcast on healthy, wealthy, smart.com. So one click will take you to everything we discussed today. So Shannon, thank you so much for coming on and talking about how to use yoga in your physical therapy practice. So thank you. Oh, thank you, Karen. It was a pleasure. I love, I love, I got to share the best of like my favorite part of the world. Awesome. Thank you so much. And everyone who's out there listening. Thanks so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart. Speaker 2 (37:01): Big thank you to Shannon for sharing how she incorporates her passion, which is yoga into her physical therapy practice. And of course thank you to net health for sponsoring today's episode net health therapy for private practice is a cloud-based all-in-one EMR solution for managing your practice. One piece of software that handles all of your scheduling documentation, billing and reporting needs. Plus lots more in one super easy to use package net health is offering a special deal for healthy, wealthy, and smart listeners completed demo with the net health team and get a hundred dollars towards lunch for your staff. Visit net health.com/ let's see to get started and get access to free resources for PTs like eBooks on demand, webinars, and business tools. Once again, that's net health.com/l I T Z Y. Speaker 1 (37:53): Thank you for listening and please subscribe to the podcast at podcast dot healthy, wealthy, smart.com. And don't forget to follow us on social media.

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Dr. Joe, Tatta, PT, DPT to talk about using acceptance and mindfulness-based interventions to build resilience and overcome chronic pain. Dr. Joe Tatta is a global leader in integrative pain care and an advocate for the safe and effective treatment of chronic pain. He is the Founder of the Integrative Pain Science Institute, a cutting-edge health company reinventing pain care through evidence-based treatment, research, and professional development.  In this episode, we discuss: 1. Psychological variables associated with chronic pain 2. What is Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT)  3. How is ACT different from traditional cognitive behavioral approaches and pain education? 4. How is ACT different from mindfulness, like the kind we encounter in popular culture? 5. How does ACT help physical therapists' function better and prevent professional burnout?  6. Dr. Tatta's latest book "Radical Relief: A Guide to Overcome Chronic Pain   Resources: Radical Relief Book  ACT for Chronic Pain Professional Training Course:  Mindfulness-Based Pain Relief Practitioner Certification RELIEF: and online mindfulness community for pain care. Facebook: @drjoetatta Instagram: @drjoetatta Twitter: @drjoetatta A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode! Learn more about the Redoc Patient Portal here.    More about Dr. Joe Tatta:  Dr. Joe Tatta is a global leader in integrative pain care and an advocate for the safe and effective treatment of chronic pain. He is the Founder of the Integrative Pain Science Institute, a cutting-edge health company reinventing pain care through evidence-based treatment, research, and professional development. For 25 years he has supported people living with pain and helped practitioners deliver more effective pain management. His research and career achievements include scalable practice models centered on lifestyle medicine, health behavior change, and digital therapeutics. He is a Doctor of Physical Therapy, a Board-Certified Nutrition Specialist, and Acceptance and Commitment Therapy trainer. Dr. Tatta is the author of two bestselling books Radical Relief: A Guide to Overcome Chronic Pain and Heal Your Pain Now: The Revolutionary Program to Reset Your Brain and Body for a Pain-Free Life and host of weekly Healing Pain Podcast. Learn more by visiting www.integrativepainscienceinstitute.com.   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:                https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the full transcript here: Speaker 1 (00:00:01): Hey, Joe. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm happy to have you on again. Speaker 2 (00:00:06): Hi Karen. Thanks for inviting me. I'm excited to be here. Speaker 1 (00:00:08): Yes. And today we're going to be tough. Well, let's not let's, let's roll it back for a second. So it seems like each time you've come on, we've talked about some different aspects of pain, right? We're both in that chronic pain world, we love treating people with chronic pain and talking about chronic pain or persistent pain. And we've done that quite a bit. We've talked about the psychological variables associated with persistent pain and how psychologically informed physical therapy is so important. So let's talk about which variables we should be most concerned about with regard to effectively treating pain, big question right out of the gate. Speaker 2 (00:00:52): It is, and it's a, it's a great place to start. And that's a question that all of us are asking ourselves and researchers are asking this question more and more and we're trying to figure out, okay, what is like the key variable? Is there one key variable that we should be paying attention to? And it's interesting if you look at the evolution of chronic pain and I think both you and I have been practicing for about 25 years. So we've really have seen things transitioned from this biomedical biomechanical model, right? And the core of that was let me figure out, let's try and figure out or identify what's wrong with the physical body. Right. Pretty easy. Speaker 1 (00:01:34): And then the pain goes away. Speaker 2 (00:01:36): Exactly. And we were all there at one point, then this bio-psycho-social model comes in and we're like, okay, there was there a psychological variables that we should pay attention to. And what's interesting is when I talked to physical therapists about the psychological variables, they bring in a little bit of that older biomedical model in the sense of how can I identify what's wrong. And then if I know what's wrong, then I can fix it. And it makes sense. And that even shows up in some of our mental health colleagues as well when they approach people with pain. So when we look at, you know, there's kind of like five big ones pink catastrophizing, can you see your phobia, fear, avoidance, depression, anxiety, those five persistently show up in the literature as variables that are associated with poor outcomes with regards to chronic pain. So you see them all the time and we have ways we can test for it, right? Pain, catastrophizing scale Tampa kinesiophobia scale, et cetera, et cetera, evolve are well aware of these. And we all use them. What I want people to consider for a moment is these are all what we would call vulnerability processes. So this is what makes someone vulnerable to transitioning, let's say from acute pain to chronic pain and they may be important and they are important, but I would like people to consider for a minute. If you flip the coin over, what's the opposite side of vulnerability. Speaker 2 (00:03:13): And this is really important when we think about chronic pain, because our job as professionals is not necessarily to identify here's, what's wrong. You physically, here's, what's wrong with you psychologically or emotionally. And now I'm going to fix, modify or change those variables. We want to focus on as professionals. The other side of that coin is how can I help someone be more resilient? How do I develop, build or foster a sense of resiliency. So that other side of the coin, which is really what has interested me the most, I'd say in the past 10 years is looking at those positive, psychological factors that are associated with resiliency. There's three of them. We can kind of talk about them a little bit each but there are pain, self-efficacy pain, acceptance, and then values based living. Speaker 1 (00:04:01): Okay. So let's dive into each of those. So let's start with pain. Self-Efficacy what the heck does that mean? Speaker 2 (00:04:09): Yeah. And we hear the word self-efficacy used a lot, and I want to make sure that we tag on the word pain with that because just normal quote unquote self-efficacy you can measure self efficacy, but really as a pain professional, whether you're a physical therapist or another licensed health, professional, or certified actualize professional someone's confidence or their ability and their confidence in themselves to function and figure out what the cause of their pain isn't to overcome. It is basically what we identify as pain self-efficacy. Now you can actually have good self efficacy and have poor pain self-efficacy so it's important as professionals that we look at him as, okay, how can I help someone with pain self-efficacy with regard to their rehabilitation and overcoming pain. Speaker 1 (00:05:04): And so say that one more time for me, I'm going to edit some of this out, but I just want to get that into my own brain. Speaker 2 (00:05:15): No, no problem. So paint, self efficacy is one's confidence regarding their ability to function while they experience a while they have pain. Speaker 1 (00:05:24): Okay. Got it. Got it. All right. That makes sense. And that is coming from someone, the long history of chronic pain. That's not easy. Can I say that? Is it okay to say that that's not easy? Speaker 2 (00:05:41): Absolutely. And it does go back to what I mentioned a little bit earlier, where okay. If I have pain, it's this message this signal, if you will, that something's wrong. And it's perfectly normal that your mind goes to the place of, I want to stop. I want to eliminate, I want to resolve this pain with acute pain. That's fine. With chronic pain. It's something very different. And if someone gets kind of caught up in that Whirlpool, if you will, of constantly spinning and trying to figure out, okay, what is the cause of this? And they go down that biomedical route, that's where people wind up in trouble and where they don't find a solution for their pain and why pain persists. So pain self-advocacy is interesting because it's like, okay, do I have the knowledge? Do I have the tools? I have the ability in myself, right? Speaker 2 (00:06:36): Because if we're not looking at vulnerability for looking at resiliency, really what we're saying is somewhere within, inside you deep inside you actually, you have the ability to contact something that you haven't contacted yet, or maybe you've only contacted a piece of it. But if I can help you with that, if I can help you along that path, if I can help you along that journey, then we can improve your pain, self efficacy. And it's potentially the research is still kind of unclear, but it's potentially the number one factor, the number one resiliency factor with overcoming chronic pain. Speaker 1 (00:07:13): Oh gosh. As you're, you're saying that I, in my head, I'm going back, you know, 10, 15 years to when I was in pain all the time. And yes, I was searching for that fix. And what I found when my pain started to recede, I started to feel better was that I was always looking for that external fix. When in fact I had to look into myself to see how, what I can do to overcome this and, and to kind of move forward and make the best decisions I can at the time, the information that I have and be okay with it and then move forward. And that was the thing that really helped to kind of flip the switch for me. Speaker 2 (00:08:00): That's right. And there's, there's two really important things embedded in what you just said. The first is, as physical therapists were very aware of pain, avoidance painted warnings is almost when I look at pain avoidance now after studying acceptance and commitment therapy, I look at painted. William says, it's too simple. So it's like, if the, you know, if you put your hand over the flame, I pull my hand away. I avoid pain. If there's a rock in your shoe, you want to walk differently or take the rock out. What you're saying in your experience, Karen, which is common in many, people's almost every single person's experience you've had chronic pain. Is that the pain persisted for so long that not only did I avoid pain, but I started to move away from everything that was important in my life. And I moved toward only those potential areas on the, on, toward the potential causes that could alleviate my pain. Speaker 2 (00:09:00): Now in the act that's called experiential avoidance. And again, it's a little bit different than regular pain avoidance because experiential avoidance means the entire experience. The entire capsule of my life what's encased in there is only to seek out the elimination or the control of pain. And when that happens, that's when people go down sometimes sad and sometimes very scary routes of things like surgeries that don't work and one medication or multiple medications, or we see, you know, behaviors lead to passive treatments you know, leaving work and disconnected from personal relationships, all the things that we see that our patients struggle with. So it's what you say is really important. And to try to make those distinctions for therapists, I think are also important as well, because we can skim along the surface of pain, avoidance, so to speak. But I really believe if we want to be effective with pain, we need to go on this deeper level with people looking at that pain, self efficacy, looking at pain acceptance. And then the last one looking at values based living, which is what ha, which is actually the flip side of experiential avoidance. Speaker 1 (00:10:15): And something that you just said that sort of avoidance becomes all encompassing. And, and I will agree. That's exactly what would happen. Like I can remember doing things like going to an acupuncturist and having them put all these needles in my ear. And then I had to walk around the plinth counterclockwise three times. I mean, when you think about that, you're like, what? But I was so desperate. Like I was doing anything and everything for that fix. When I knew even as a physical therapist that walking counterclockwise around uplift three times doesn't really make a difference. But yet here I am doing it and doing that instead of, I don't know, meeting up with friends, right. Relaxing, going to the gym. Like I was avoiding all that other stuff because I was so laser focused on finding this cure, so to speak Speaker 2 (00:11:21): That's right. And as you're talking to me and I'm imagining what it's like for YouTube and in that experience, and you're talking about going to an acupuncturist with which, you know, I tell people, look, if you have one passive treatment that you engage in each week as a, as a means of, stress-relief totally fine by me. I have those as well. So we're not suggesting that people avoid anything that's passive, but as I listened to you, and at first you started, well, I went to the acupuncture was for my pain, but you continue to talk what you actually revealed was most important. The real pain was, yes, it was physical, but the real pain was what, it's, what it's stolen, what it Rob for my life. Right. I think you mentioned relationships. That's kind of like, all right, there's pain avoidance here, but what's the real pain underneath that. Speaker 2 (00:12:16): Cause that's what I'm curious to talk to people about. And that's what I'm curious to learn about patients when they come to me and they say they're suffering and they say, they're struggling. I want to know, okay. What about your life? Do you miss? Who do you miss in your life? What aspects of your life do you miss? Because the truth is Karen. If we look at the, the vast body of research that reaction now have with regards to chronic pain, most things, no matter what it is, if you apply just one, intervention works minimally and the outcomes are not spectacular. So they're minimal and they're not spectacular. But when you start to combine different things together, then you see more moderate improvements in clinical studies and you see a change in someone's quality of life. But ahead of all of that, some of the most important outcomes that we're looking for is to look at, okay, what's meaningful in your life. And how do I help you reconnect with that? And I really believe that the resiliency processes that are out there, they exist in all of our practices and an acceptance that can move therapy kind of has a bunch of different processes that really lend well to this. But if we can engage people with these positive psychological responses and move away from the negative sodas, because people are aware that they realize they're scared, hell of pain, there is trouble. Speaker 1 (00:13:45): Oh yeah, yeah. When I had pain, like I totally understood. Yeah, I have it. I don't want to I'll avoid anything to have it that yes, we totally, 100% get that. Speaker 2 (00:14:00): Right. They realized, they realized, they think about it a lot. They realize they're a little sad or depressed about it or anxious about it. They realized that it consumes their time, but they really want to know is how do I get my life back? There's a whole chunk of my life over here. Yes. When you sit down with somebody who has pain, the first thing they're going to talk about is physical pain and that's Norma. And we should, we should make an attempt to validate that for them. But later on, as you're working on their self-advocacy and as you're working on that third week relationship, which really needs to start like the first 10 minutes of the treatments, it really does. Doesn't it doesn't start like three weeks later. What's the first five minutes. These are the questions that we should be asking ourselves. And these are the questions that we should be asking our patients to help them navigate what's happened to them. Speaker 1 (00:14:48): Okay. So let's, let's talk about that. So you're Speaker 3 (00:14:52): The physical, I'm the physical therapist, right? How do I broach these topics or these questions with the patient without offending them without coming across, as you know, you may have patients say, Oh, that's too personal. Do you know what I mean? So how as physical therapist, and this is where, you know, you had mentioned acceptance and commitment therapy, right? So how has physical therapists, can we incorporate, act into our treatment practice? How can we do this without being offensive, Speaker 2 (00:15:34): The best place to, and I'd like, I like the word offensive because I do believe as even though I'm a big fan of psychologically informed physical therapy, and I've talked about this on podcasts and everything, I've done books, et cetera. We have to realize as physical therapists, there's a cognitive dissonance there, which means when someone comes to see us, they don't expect that we're going to be talking about psychological variables. They don't expect that. And nor should they, we have a long, long, long way to go. Not only in our own profession, but in the entire healthcare system, before we get there. Speaker 2 (00:16:15): When you're talking about interviewing someone or evaluating someone or assessing someone during the evaluation, which is really where you should start to talk about values based living, there are a couple of just simple questions that you can add into your evaluation. So again, this is psychological informed care, right? We're not becoming psychologists. We're just using principles of to inform our care so that our outcomes are better. So for example, one of the most important questions, which I always get positive responses from, and people never feel taken aback by this is if you didn't have pain right now, what would you be doing with your life? Speaker 2 (00:17:00): And it's an open-ended question, right? What kind of weaving in like, you know, principles of motivational interviewing. It allows someone to think, wow, if I didn't have pain, what would I be doing? And you, and I may be able to, to kind of access that very easily or rapidly. However, someone who's had pain for a long time. It's like, there's been a smoke screen in front of their eyes. They're no longer able to see that. Okay. There's another aspect of life for me, somewhere that I can begin to kind of work on. Another really simple one kind of a nice metaphorical one is if I had a magic wand and I can wave the magic wand and make your pain go away, what would you do? What would you do tomorrow? Or who would you visit? Who would you go see and spend your time with? So a couple of just really simple open-ended questions that you include an initial valuation. And I recommend, you know, when people first start training with me, I give them lots of different handouts with regard to values, because you can spend a whole hour on this, but if you're new, just seeding this into your practice just a little bit, day by day or session by session. So to speak, it's a nice way for you to change because there's behavior change. That's involved for us as professionals as we start to use these new interventions. Speaker 1 (00:18:20): Yeah. And I think as the, the healthcare professional, the physical therapist, like you said, there is still that unconscious bias of I got to fix it. Right. So I think I would imagine you can correct me if I'm wrong, but the more patients that we see and the more that we ask these questions, the more that I think we'll be able to kind of delve into this other part of the person sitting in front of us. Because the one thing that comes to mind when you said if you didn't have the pain, what would you be doing? What if someone's like, I don't know. I can't even picture it. You just put, I don't know. I can't picture it and move on to the next question. What, what, what happens next? Speaker 2 (00:19:11): Well, there's a couple of different parts there. Karen. the first part I just want to mention, so physical therapist and other health professionals who work in rehab are excellent at goal setting. And in fact, I think physical therapists and probably OTs are the best at goal setting, probably in the profession, in the, in the healthcare professions. Historically, we've not been very good at talking about meaningful or value based activities. What if I told you as a professional, that it's more important to help clarify someone's cloudy values instead of setting really precise short-term and long-term goals like we've been trained. So what I'm really saying is we have to challenge ourselves and look at our own practice and say, okay, what am I doing? That's effective and what am I not doing? That's effective. Now, the reason why it's called acceptance and commitment therapy is because with regard to pain, acceptance, that's, one's willingness to acknowledge pain as part of their life experience. Speaker 2 (00:20:15): And with that acknowledgement, they avoid the, they avoid the attempts to control or eliminate it. Now pain acceptance is important for people living with pain, pain. Acceptance is also vitally important for practitioners who treat people with pain because of the research is clear that we don't have a really spectacular way right now to eliminate someone's pain. I'm not saying that we can't do that. I believe it does happen, but what I'm proposing. So people who are listening to this episode is that in many ways, we put the cart before the horse, and we've said, I'm going to make your pain go away first. So we have all these ways to make your pain go away. And then you'll return to life. Speaker 2 (00:21:03): When in essence, we have to say, let's talk about how we can start to clarify what was important to you in life. Take little steps toward that. And then with that, your pain will start to go away. They're very different messages and they're also very different ways to approach a patient. So if someone turns to you Karen and says, I have no idea. I've had pain for 10 years. It's affected me so badly. I lost my job. I've lost my personal relationships. Let that person talk about their loss because just like that vulnerability process, right? They're talking about how they're vulnerable. Well, on the opposite side of that, they're really saying, I want to, I want to maintain relationships. I want to get back to work. So allow people some room, actually many times when, when questions like that come up, this is going to sound strange to people. Speaker 2 (00:21:56): But I just sit there in silence. I maintain eye-contact. I maybe move a little bit closer to the person. And I just give them some space to process that and to process the, the idea that someone's asking them, someone's interested in their life beyond just pain relief. And that can be really difficult, especially for physical therapists, because we went to school. And even if you go to like DPT program websites right now, it says like, you will learn how to like resolve someone's pain. And then we get out into the world. We got out into, you know, the profession. I mean, we figure out, Hmm, maybe I'm not as good at this. As I thought, Speaker 1 (00:22:36): This is, this is really hard. Am I missing something? I must have, they didn't teach me this in school. Am I, what do I need to learn to do this? Speaker 2 (00:22:46): That's right. So the question is, you know, what, if the way to help someone contact her values is to just sit with them and allow them some space to start to think about that. Because chances are, if someone's wrapped up in experiential avoidance, they're not thinking about that on a daily basis. They're thinking about, I need to take my medication this morning. I need a hot bath. I need to take my magnesium. I need to take my nap. I need to do some distraction activities. So I don't think about pain. That's what their mind is preoccupied with. Speaker 1 (00:23:26): Yeah. Or yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Yeah. Everything you're saying, I'm like, yep. I can remember like, Hmm, okay. I have to figure out what pillow I'm going to use. I have to figure out how much I'm going to put my bag. So it's not that heavy. When I walk around, do I have a break during the day? Did I take Advil? Did I? Yeah. So on and so forth, but that is, that's all encompassing during your day. And, and I don't think I had, well, yeah, well, when I sat with David Butler, he's like, well, what, what would you be doing? Right. And I, my answer is, I don't know. I, I never thought about it. Right. You know, and, and, and being able to send, he did exactly what you just said. He's like, well, think about it. Speaker 2 (00:24:17): And I w I want to, you know, reinforce what you're saying is that for some people it's extremely difficult for them to think about it. Yeah. Speaker 1 (00:24:24): Yeah. It's and it's really uncomfortable and it's uncomfortable. So just think of it's in control for the patient. And you're the therapist on the other end, is it uncomfortable for you as the therapist to watch someone be uncomfortable and wiggle in their chair, so to speak? Speaker 2 (00:24:41): Yeah. I love that. And my response to that is empathy for the people we work with involves a little bit of us feeling uncomfortable and sharing that unpleasantness with the person that's in front of you. And in many ways we mirror people actually. So as they're struggling and suffering as a human, who cares about someone we're struggling and suffering too, because ultimately, ultimately every physical therapist I've ever met. And, you know, I've interviewed a lot of therapist. Karen, when I asked him, why did you want to become a physical therapist? And they would say, well, I want to, to help people. And if I always dig, dig in there more, there's always a story of, well, when I was in high school, my, you know, my grandfather had a stroke and he wound up living with us and I saw the PT come in the house, or I was an athlete and I had an ACL repair. And I saw all these people in this PT place and how I could help them. So, you know, there's a, there's an aspect of human resiliency built in with that. I lost my train of thought. Sorry. one thing you can try for people who are having a hard time connecting to their values, their personal values is to ask them, Hey, if I were to share some information with you about how we can alleviate pain, who would you share that with in your life? Speaker 1 (00:26:13): That's nice. So then Speaker 2 (00:26:15): It takes it off of, it takes a little bit of the pressure off the person or off the patient. Speaker 1 (00:26:20): Yeah. Yeah. It takes a little bit off them and puts it onto someone else. Right. Speaker 2 (00:26:25): Right. And in general, we all want to help other people. And especially people with pain, they really do care about other people. And they really have an interest in not seeing other people's struggle the way, the way they've been struggling. So it's a nice way to just kind of shift the conversation a little bit. And if you continue with that, what you'll eventually see kind of like in ourselves when we learn things right. And when we teach things, we actually wind up implementing it into our life in a way that's more effective. Speaker 1 (00:26:52): Yeah. Yeah. That reminds me of Sharon Salzberg, loving kindness, meditations. So when she does those meditations, she sort of starts with, you know, think of someone else and, you know, offer them like a life of ease, a life of love, a life of serenity or kindness. And you kind of repeat that mantra for awhile and then just say, offer it to the world and you offer it to the world. And she's like, okay, now offer it to yourself. So that you've practiced someone else you've practiced the world. And then you can turn it back onto yourself. And it's, I always felt like, Oh, this is nice. Now I don't feel bad. Wishing myself a life of ease or a life of ex you know, love or XYZ. Right. Cause I think sometimes when you, I think a lot of people feel this way. They have a hard time being kind to themselves and allowing themselves to not suffer. Speaker 1 (00:27:50): Even though with chronic pain, you are suffering and you don't want to be suffering yet. It's hard to recognize that in yourself. You'd rather put it onto someone else or wish that for someone else. But it's just so hard to wish it for ourselves because maybe if, if you've had chronic pain and I'm just, I don't know if this is true or not, but you can't, it's hard to see yourself out of it. Right? And so it's hard to even think of yourself, elevating yourself up to something that maybe you'll never get to. So then you'll, won't be disappointed. Speaker 2 (00:28:25): That's right. I, I talk about this in my book, in the, in the sense of self-compassion, which can be difficult, as you said, it's a little bit easier to be compassionate toward other people. And it can be more challenging to be compassionate toward ourselves. Where I see this show up with regard to chronic pain is people have been taught. You have to fight pain. Yes. You have to overcome pain and you see this online people even come in, I'm a pain warrior. Speaker 1 (00:28:50): Yeah. Right. You gotta be tough. Speaker 2 (00:28:52): Right. You have to be tough. You have to fight it out. You have to struggle with it. And my question really with regard to that is, okay, there's definitely some work that we have to do here. There's some effort that we have to put into this and there's some behavior change. We know that as professionals, but if you enter into a battle with pain, what kind of message is that sending your mind? Speaker 1 (00:29:17): You're always on guard. You're always on high alert. And that's kind of the opposite of really what we want when we're working with people with chronic pain. That's right. Speaker 2 (00:29:25): And even, even Karen, because I can see you on video right now, as you do that, you're stiffening your whole body up. Right. And we know that things like spasm, muscle spasm, tightness is an outcome of some of these psychological variables. We're talking about being a warrior. Imagine you see holding a gun or holding like a spear they're stiff and very contracted, right. Really what we do with act. And many of the mindfulness and acceptance based approaches is we start to soften to the idea that maybe I don't have to fight this. And that may be my fighting. This maybe the battle with this is the worst, worst, worst part of this. And if I can just let this go just a little bit and allow it to be that maybe not only will my physical body soften, but also my mind will start to release a little bit with regard to some of the things that I've been struggling with or some of the things that I've been grappling with with regards to pain. Speaker 2 (00:30:21): And we know that when that happens, people work toward more pain acceptance. Not only does the quality of their life improve, but as I mentioned before, or that kind of cart before the horse, that's also when pain relief happens, why does pain relief happen with that? And that's, I think it's an important point to talk about, well, we have a reward system in our brain, right? That produces its own opioids. When you engage in activities that are meaningful and important to you, it kind of, you know, twinges that reward system in your brain over meaning it makes you feel good. Right? So engaging in things that make you feel good or rewarding or engaging in things that are rewarding, make you feel good, they bring you pleasure. Right. They bring you joy. And with that, it alleviates pain. So yes, there are ways for us to help with pain control. And there are ways for us to help people be a little bit more willing to engage in their life, even with a little bit of pain and both work effectively and both work synchronistically together to help people. Speaker 1 (00:31:35): Yeah. I know. I always look back and think, you know, there were days where I couldn't turn my neck from side to side, like I would be crying during the week, but then on Saturdays I pitch a double header and I was a windmill pitcher. No pain felt great, really good because I loved pitching. I love being with my team win or lose. It was awesome. Even if I got like hit with a line drive or something, I just, like, I was hit with a line drive in the shoulder. Didn't bother my neck at all. Didn't even think about it, no problems doing that. Right. And people would always, that's why, when you have someone with, in my case, like chronic neck pain or chronic back pain, and you see them doing something like pitching a double header, a fast pitch softball game, well, there's no way they could have pain because they're doing this. Right. Right. And so it's, it's from what you just said for me, this was really valuable in my life was meaningful. It gave me joy. So I was able to do it with Speaker 3 (00:32:40): Very little, if any pain, but on the outside, people are thinking she's faking it. Right. So what, what, what do you do in that respect? Yeah. Speaker 2 (00:32:51): Well, I just want to what you're saying resonates well with me, it takes me back really to like the first year I was practicing, which is like 25 years ago before I studied anything about acceptance and mindfulness based approaches. And I had a, a young woman who was, she was the same age as me at the time she was 26 and she was walking down one of the beautiful tree line Brown street, brownstone streets of Brooklyn on it's on a Saturday evening and a drunk driver. Kim wants to the curb and pinned her between the car and the steps of the brownstone. And instantly she was an above knee amputee on one side and the below knee amputee on the other side. And she was a patient of mine pretty much the first, entire six months of my career, basically. And the beginning of her rehab was so smooth. Speaker 2 (00:33:44): It was wonderful. And you know, it was a physical therapist. We just feel good because we're helping someone walk again and we're fitting them for prosthetic limbs and we're making them stronger. And that went all really well until two things happen. Once you start to lose some weight because she was in the hospital and eating better and exercising. So the prosthetic didn't fit as well. So it was a constant struggle with the prosthetics every day. And then two, she developed a neuroma on her, on her. One of her legs, there was a period for about two weeks where she was so utterly depressed and unhappy. Cause she was in so much pain and suffering so badly. And all of us, the PT, the OT, the nurses, the psychologists, I mean, everyone went into her room and try to motivate her. You know, we use these like rah, rah, watch your tacky. Speaker 2 (00:34:36): Yeah. Cheer her up kind of thing. So one day I went into her room and I just sat next to her. And I said, I don't, it doesn't seem like you want to walk today because that was my job. Right. As a PTA, she said, no. And I said, okay, well, what do you, what do you want to do? Then? I said, you can't stay here. You can't stay in this bed forever. You know that, you know, eventually you they're going to send you home. And she said, there's only one thing I want to do. She said she was engaged at the time. Actually. She's like, I want someone she's like, I want to get married. And I want someone to wheel me out into the dance floor in my wheelchair. I want to stand up and I want to dance with my dad. Speaker 2 (00:35:23): And that's all she wanted to do. She didn't want to walk. She didn't want to walk 50 feet in a hallway with a Walker times two. Right? Nope. Didn't care about that. She didn't care about the prosthetic legs. Really. She didn't really actually that at that time she didn't even really care if she was in a wheelchair, the rest of her life. That's what she wanted that moment. So you know what we did together. Okay. Put your hands on my shoulders. Stand at the edge of the bed. I put some music on and all we did was weight shift. Now, could I have done something more therapeutic from like a physical therapy perspective? Of course I could. Was there something, was there anything that was more important to her in that moment? No. No. Speaker 1 (00:36:10): Yeah. And now, now given the knowledge that you now have and what we know about pain and what we know about this more value-based activities and mindfulness and act, looking back on that, what does that do for you? What does that make you think of now where you are now looking back on that as such a young therapist? Speaker 2 (00:36:36): Well, it makes me think two things. First I am eternally grateful for the skills and knowledge I have now that I try to share with people as much as I can. And then I also reflect on who didn't I help? Oh, that's a can of worms, right? Yeah. Who slipped through my fingers that I wasn't aware of. And that makes me reflect back on, okay, what are we not teaching licensed professionals, especially physical therapists in school, right? So the amount of time we spend on evaluating the structure, function, the structure and function of a joint is in my opinion, at this point in my career is kind of absurd. Speaker 1 (00:37:23): That's the word? That is. So that's the word that came into my mind too. Speaker 2 (00:37:27): The reason why it's absurd and not no offense against, you know, our colleagues in academia is that this is so much packed into a PT program now. Yeah. So we have to get better at, okay. What do we have to, obviously we have to, we have to understand how to measure strength and range of motion, function, et cetera. But it's perhaps most important that we learn how to motivate and change behavior. Speaker 1 (00:37:56): Yeah, absolutely. Because when you, when you think about pain and certainly chronic pain, but even acute pain, what does acute pain do to us as humans? And then as a result, chronic pain, it changes our behavior. It forces us to change our behavior. If we sprain our ankle, we've got a big puffy ankle. Are we going to walk and run for the next week or so? No, it's going to change our behavior. And in chronic pain, that behavior change becomes more than just a few weeks of a behavior change. It becomes an embedded behavior change into personality and into everything that we do. Speaker 2 (00:38:39): That's right. And the reason why acceptance I commend therapy is so important for physical therapists is because when we look at all the literature on cognitive behavioral therapy, traditional cognitive, behavioral therapy, and even pain science education, and both of those I'm I'm in favor of, and I support, but the outcomes actually may be a little better with act with an act approach specifically for the pain, the population of those living with chronic pain and as physical therapists, knowing that we function in practice settings, where we come face to face with people who are in acute pain. And if we can start to deliver some of this during the acute setting, right, then we can prevent the transition to chronic pain. And I think that's the most important. So if you're in acute orthopedics, if you are working in inpatient rehab, I mean home care, all the various places that we function, physical therapists are in the perfect position to take the brain and the body or the minds and the body put them together and help someone overcome their pain. Speaker 1 (00:39:50): Yeah. And, and it goes back to what you said in the beginning, it's sort of fostering that resiliency in people, and that can happen the day one, you injure yourself. You know, last summer I, I had a partial tear of my calf muscle. And the first thing that came into my mind was, well, the first thing was I felt down when it happened, I was like felt for my Achilles tendon. I'm like, okay, the Achilles tendon is there. I'm good. And isn't that amazing? Like I, anything else to me was like a nothing thing. Right. But the first thing I needed to do was I felt down, I was able to point and flex my foot. My Achilles tendon was intact. I got up, I lived up the field fine. I was like, okay, I'm good. But the next day I was like, Oh my gosh, what if this doesn't go away? Speaker 1 (00:40:41): What if this, because of my own history with chronic pain, it's what if this is chronic? What if it never goes away? But, and I, instead I went the next day, I went to see an orthopedist and he did kind of what you're saying. He was like, listen, this is what's going on. This is what's going happen. And he gave me out like a timeline of expectations and for me, and, and the way that I function, that was a great way to build up my resiliency to know, Hey, first of all, it's not my Achilles tendon. And second of all, this is what's going to happen over the next couple of weeks and over the next couple of weeks, what he said happened. And so I felt okay, I'm good. It's a little sore. It's a little painful. I'm okay. With the backdrop of that chronic pain history was really meaningful to me. Speaker 2 (00:41:30): Yeah. There are variations of informed consent, just informing someone, okay, what here's what's happening. And here's how this is potentially going to play out. Can be really, really important and powerful for someone. It can help ease someone's anxiety. It can help ease their worry and concerned about it. And as I mentioned before, these are the places where, you know, we thrive as PTs actually, especially with regard to pain. I mean, if you look at pain education in licensed health professional training, PTs have the most more than psychologists were than the other mental health professionals, more than OTs. So, you know, we're putting all these pieces together. And in fact, when you look at what are the most important factors to help someone with pain it's pain education, right? So we talked about that some type of cognitive behavioral therapy, acceptance and commitment therapy is a third wave generation, cognitive behavioral therapy. And then something related to lifestyle, probably the most important factor with regard to lifestyle is movement is exercise and physical activity. So when you put pain education together with act together with helping someone or promoting physical activity, that's probably the kind of trifecta. Those are the, that's the secret sauce, if you will, of helping someone with pain. Speaker 1 (00:42:52): Yeah. I, I agree a hundred percent and now let's dive in just quickly. If you can give the listeners kind of like, what's the difference? You, you sort of alluded to it now between acceptance and commitment therapy and cognitive behavioral therapy, and also the difference between act and mindfulness. Speaker 2 (00:43:19): Sure. All really important distinctions. Thanks for the question. So cognitive behavioral therapy is kind of the first therapy that was used with regard to people's thoughts, beliefs, and emotions around pain. Most of that work focuses on identifying or challenging problematic, problematic, or modifying thoughts. And with that, as someone modifies their thoughts, you hope that it modifies and changes their behavior. So restructuring thoughts, we've heard these words before restructuring thoughts, reframing thoughts even the reconceptualization of pain, which is a purely from like a pain education perspective. It's still a more traditional cognitive behavioral therapy model, helping someone identify their thoughts, and if their thoughts are maladaptive, how can we change those thoughts now they're important. And there's a place there for that. What I propose to people when they start to look the literature on changing thoughts, specifically with pain or the route with regard to pain, it can be quite difficult and quite sticky to do that. Speaker 2 (00:44:29): There's some pretty good research that shows that there's a small group that will reconceptualize their pain really early on. There's another smaller, equally small group that will never change. And then most people are kind of somewhere in the middle. So they understand what you're saying. They understand that, okay, the herniated disc in my back, isn't the only factor with regards to my chronic lower back pain. And they understand that, you know, thoughts about your thoughts about pain, negative thoughts about pain are not necessarily good, but they don't reconceptualize. They don't change those thoughts on a hundred percent. The difference with acceptance and commitment therapy and even mindfulness, they're both what they call third generation cognitive behavioral therapies, which instead of targeting these maladaptive thoughts and beliefs, we simply help people observe that they have thoughts about what's happening. And instead of changing that we help people understand or identify, recognize that they can have those thoughts and beliefs, but still continue on with the things that are important to them in their life. So it's a big distinction. It's especially challenging for physical therapist who spent a lot of time studying pain education. And there's a physiotherapist from Ireland that came into my act program and she studied pain education for a long time. And then she studied cognitive functional therapy, both two evidence-based wonderful ways to treat pain, but she found that there were some people, a lot of patients actually, that they understood didactically what you were saying to them, but it didn't change their behavior. Speaker 2 (00:46:10): So what's wonderful about act is that act is a behavior change model. It's really based in behavioral therapy. And there's also something nice about not having to struggle with someone to change their thoughts and beliefs all the time. It takes a little bit of pressure off the person who has pain and it takes a little bit of pressure off of the therapist, Speaker 1 (00:46:30): Right? Because sometimes when you try and change those thoughts and behaviors, and I don't know about you, but I've heard this when I first started you know, really studying more about pain science and, and understanding how, how pain affects people in so many different ways. And when I first would talk to people and I bet, you know what I'm going to say here? What, what would they say to you? So you're saying it's all in my head. That's right. Right. Speaker 2 (00:47:00): And the, you know, when that happens, people feel invalidated and it kind of takes us full circle to the beginning of our conversation is it focuses on their vulnerability. Oh, so you're saying there's something wrong with the way I'm thinking. And the truth is if someone thinks about their pain, a lot, that's 100% normal. Cause that's, that's a pain supposed to do. Pain is supposed to alert you to something that's potentially harmful or something that's dangerous. So just normalizing that everyone's mind my mind, Karen, your mind, someone who has pain, we all think all, most of our thoughts throughout the day, our thoughts about how do I avoid things that could potentially harm me, things that are potentially uncomfortable, helping people just observe that actually can be the step before even the reconceptualization of pain, because how can you, how can you expect someone? How can you help someone to target thoughts and beliefs about pain if they haven't even thought about, okay, what are my thoughts? Speaker 2 (00:48:12): What are my beliefs about pain? What am I thinking right now? The average person has somewhere between 6,000 and 12,000 thoughts per day. And the truth is most of them are negative because it's a survival instinct, right? We brought this through with survival instead. How can I observe these thoughts? How can I observe my emotions? How can I be getting to observe the physical sensations in my body, whether that be anxiety, whether that be physical pain and realize that I can have contact with that, but not let it impact my behavior. So that's really the biggest difference between an act or a mindful, acceptance based approach versus a more traditional cognitive behavioral approach. Speaker 1 (00:48:57): Yeah. Thank you for that. That is very helpful. Cause I'm sure you get that question quite a bit. So it's nice to be able to clear that up. So now let's shift gears slightly ever so slightly and talk about your new book, right? So your new book, radical relief, a guide to overcoming chronic pain. So let's talk about it. Why the title why'd you write it? Go ahead. Speaker 2 (00:49:27): Well, after my first book came out called heal your pain. Now in that book, I had a section called the brain and pain. And at that time, the author only gave me so much space to write about the mind, so to speak. So I had to, I had to include small sections about mindfulness and about act and in general about the mind and how the mind responds to pain. And it kind of forced me to take a very didactic approach to pain. And people would reach out to me all the time. I want to learn more about mindfulness for pain. I want to learn more about this thing. You mentioned act about pain. So both professionals and people were coming to me. So I couldn't put it in that book. And I really firmly believed that deserved its own resource because there are solid mental skills, training and exercises that are in this book, radical relief that wasn't in my, in my first book. Speaker 2 (00:50:24): Second is it's a little bit tongue cheek, so to speak, it's a radical idea to think that two physical therapists want to spend their Thursday evening talking about the mind and mental skills training with regard to pain. So as we said before, like there's a little bit of a cognitive dissonance in there, but we know that physical therapists have a very important part with regard to helping people cope both physically as well as psychologically and emotionally. You know, the third aspect is just in general to give people this notion that it's not a radical idea to use your mind, to use mental skills training, to use mindfulness, to overcome pain. And that can be a part of your treatment. And in fact, as you and I are sitting here counting, I can guarantee you there's someone right now, who's being treated for pain who are not being offered these types of skills and you know, you, and I think it's absurd actually, but this is still happening. So radical relief really is a short book. It's only about a hundred pages. It's a workbook that includes over 50 cognitive and mindfulness type exercises to help people overcome their chronic pain in essence. And it's also written for practitioners to use as a guide in the manual that they can use in clinical practice. Speaker 1 (00:51:45): Yeah. And the one thing that I liked about the book aside from, as we were talking before we went on air, it's very, very pretty all of the illustrations are quite beautiful. But I like the fact that within each chapter there's like exercises and you have to literally write things down, pen, take pen to paper, and you can do it right in the book. Or you can grab the extra sheet of paper or what have you. But I like the fact that you have to write things down because there is something to that, you know, there is something to writing to the physical act of writing something down on paper versus typing it out or just thinking about it. And so that's something that I really appreciated throughout the book. Speaker 2 (00:52:30): Yeah. And I learned that from my first book as my first book was a very education based approach. As we mentioned, pain education is important, but it, it doesn't do a great job of changing behavior when you get involved with act, act as a very experiential therapy. So you're not sitting across from someone like talking to them, you're actually engaging with them in a lot of different ways. So what I really found was, and people can, you know, note this down for themselves. The average person doesn't want to flip through 300 pages of a book to learn about pain. They want something that's relatively short. They want something that's clear. They want something that's useful that they can really pick up, you know, now and start to use. And I think it's the same with practitioners, right? There's only so much theory and philosophy we can think about before we say, okay, what do I do with my patient today? What am I do with patient? I have at nine o'clock tomorrow, who's been suffering with fibromyalgia for 10 years. So that's why I tried to approach this book very differently from, from the first book. Speaker 1 (00:53:35): Yeah. And, and before we went on air, you, you asked me if I had a post-it note to which I said, I have a large sheet of white paper and you said, no, it needs to be a post-it note. And I said, well, I have a mini post-it note, will that do the trick? So please, please tell me why I needed a post-it note and not a large white sheet of paper. And perhaps the listeners, if they have a post-it note, they can go and grab one as well. Speaker 2 (00:54:05): Yeah. So if everyone has a post-it note and a pen or a pencil, please hit pause and grab that and come back. But as you mentioned, Karen, it's a workbook. And you said putting pen to paper changes things, right? Because in some ways it's it's experiential. So I was, as, as I was mentioning before, we don't have a good way to change thoughts and beliefs. So with that, we have to help people relate or respond differently to thoughts and beliefs. Right? All of us have things in life, thoughts and beliefs about ourselves that are somewhat unpleasant and painful, right? Some of them are really, really horrible things about ourselves. And some are, some of them are things like, you know, not so horrible. So if you'll kind of engage in this with me, I'd like you to just reflect on yourself and your own life experience and think about one negative, thought about yourself, not the worst thought possible, but one thought that, you know, maybe on a scale of one to 10 with like one the least impactful and like 10, the worst, maybe you're somewhere like a four or five. And then I want you to write that down on the post-it note. Speaker 3 (00:55:19): Okay. Speaker 2 (00:55:20): So we can't change this thought, right? The thought is there and just rip it off a little post-it pads, Speaker 3 (00:55:31): Still writing. Okay. Speaker 1 (00:55:42): My pen's running out of ink, but I remember what it was. It's, it's half written. It's written. I just, my pen ran out of ink, but okay. We can, we can go on. It is written. Speaker 2 (00:55:52): I'm going to do this with you actually. So it's written there and what I want you to do is pull it off the, pull off the post-it pad. Okay. And I want you to hold it up. I don't know, maybe about a foot or so away from your knees. I want you to look at it. And in your, in your mind, I just want you to repeat the word nice and slowly, and really kind of get lost in that word just for a moment. And then as you get lost in that word, just notice if you feel anything different in your body. Speaker 1 (00:56:37): Yeah. Looking at the yes. Speaker 2 (00:56:39): Right? Okay. So you see how thoughts have an impact on how we feel now, what I want you to do is I want you to take your arm and stretch it out as far as you can go. And I want you to look at that word. And what I want you to do is I want you to flip it upside down. Now, just turn it 180 degrees and now look at it and now see if it has any less of an impact on how you feel. Speaker 1 (00:57:07): I mean, maybe a little, Speaker 2 (00:57:09): A little bit right now. What I want you to do is I want you to maybe prop it up on the computer screen in front of you, and I want you to push back. So maybe you're 10 feet or so. Speaker 1 (00:57:22): Okay. Go. As far as my mic, as my ear, phones will take me Speaker 2 (00:57:28): And then maybe just stand up as you're there and now look at the word and then notice if there's any difference in how you feel or how you relate to that word. Speaker 1 (00:57:43): Yeah. Maybe a little bit, now that I'm standing and people can't see me, but I think I automatically stood up in the power pose. Speaker 2 (00:57:49): I noticed I still noticed put your hands on your hips. Right. So would you say there's less of an impact as you move away from the words so to speak? Yeah. Great. Okay. Come back forward. So what I just did is what they call cognitive distancing. So it was a way to distance yourself, literally as well as figuratively. So now what I want you to do cameras, I want you to take that same post in them. I want you to fold it up into a little square And I want you to put it in your back pocket. Speaker 1 (00:58:24): Okay. I don't have one. So I'll pretend I do. Speaker 2 (00:58:28): Yeah. Just stick it up your sleeve there. Okay. So now you have this unpleasant unwanted thought about yourself. It's not going away cause it's in your back pocket or it's in your front pocket or wherever it is, wherever you placed it. And my question for you is would you be willing to be with that thought and to be with those uncomfortable sensations you feel on your body, if it meant you could be a more effective physical therapist or be a more loving daughter sure. Or a more supportive wife or a girlfriend, or a more effective member of your community or a leader of your profession. Speaker 1 (00:59:14): Yeah. I can do that. Right. Speaker 2 (00:59:16): So it just shows you that we can change how people relate to thoughts. We didn't change the actual thought. Still there. We can change how people relate to them, to it. And we can also show people how, okay, this thought can be present with us and I can still experience it and not feel good about it, but I can still go about my life. And what I do with patients is I have them take these thoughts. Like I have a big herniated disc at L five S one. Okay. Write that on a piece of paper, put it in your back pocket in your briefcase and carry it around with you today and notice how at times that thought wasn't even present and didn't talk to you at all. And other times maybe it was present a little bit, you thought about it, but it didn't stop you. And other times it was like a big barrier. Right. And within those three, they're really important teaching moments that we can help patients with. Speaker 1 (01:00:09): Yeah. Oh, that's great. Great, great. Is that in the book? So Speaker 2 (01:00:14): The book is full of Speaker 1 (01:00:17): Nice. Nice. Yeah, no, I think that's great. And, and for, you know, physical therapists or other healthcare professionals that might be listening, that my hope is that this podcast will plant a seed in them to say, you know, maybe, maybe I'm I need to do a little bit more, you know, and what can I do to do more Speaker 2 (01:00:43): The biggest ask the biggest, one of the great gifts that I have come across in teaching physical therapists about act is yes, it helps your patients, but physical therapists notice a change in themselves from it. Because look, we struggle with not being able to help people. We get burnt out because of it. Absolutely. We have our own personal challenges that cause us pain and suffering. So to speak that we struggle with outside of our clinical work, that this type of work becomes really important to you. And the truth is, as you know, Karen pain will show up in life. Yes, it will show up when you least expect it. And these are effective skills that I really believe all of us need to learn and adopt not only for our patients, but for us to be effective clinicians and effective professionals for us to embody them in ourselves, then we can help people with these types of aspects and these, this type of care. Speaker 1 (01:01:44): Yeah. I don't disagree with that. I think that's great. And you know, I was just going to ask you to sort of put a bow on this conversation, if you will, and what would you like people to take away from it? I think you gave a little bit of it just now, but is there anything you'd want to add on to that? Speaker 2 (01:02:06): What I want people to take away from a mindfulness and acceptance based approach to care is that there's hope in it. And that hope really resides in helping helping, giving you the skills that help someone reconnect with their life. And that resilience that we spoke about in the beginning, the hope is really what people are looking for because they feel helpless. They feel hopeless. And this work is really about, okay, maybe there's some things in your physical body we have to work on. Maybe there are some thoughts and feelings and emotions that are difficult for you. Let's yeah. Let's kind of work on those, but know that you're whole, as you are, as a human being and everything that's required to overcome this already exists in you, I'm just going, gonna help you contact that in a way that's more efficient that moves you along this path in a way that's faster. So the whole part is really important and that's really what people are coming to us for. Speaker 1 (01:03:07): Yeah. Yeah. That's great. And then last question or no, well, last question before we get to, how do we contact you and all that other fun stuff, but, and you know what this question is, I think I've already asked it to you like three times, however many times you've been on the podcast, but let's say knowing where you are now as a therapist and as a person and in your life and your career, what advice would you give to your younger self? Maybe not right out of college, but let's say 10 years ago, before you really started delving into working with information surrounding chronic pain, Speaker 2 (01:03:48): I would say, give yourself space to fail and just allow that stuff, exploration of exploring different things and realizing, Hey, I didn't do that so well, or I wasn't so great today and allow yourself, there's a lot of pressure on us as professionals to be this, you know, master healer, so to speak. And I really think it's damaging to us as professionals. Speaker 1 (01:04:20): And I think that can lead to burnout, all that pressure on you to be the person, the one person in someone else's life. That's going to take away all their pain or take or add this, or take away that boy, that's a lot of pressure. Speaker 2 (01:04:37): That's right. I, I actually, I asked therapists now, who are you to take away someone's pain. Cause really think about what that really means. Speaker 1 (01:04:46): Like the wizard of Oz, Speaker 2 (01:04:48): Right? Like, is there some like magic fairy dust that you have that the rest of us don't have? And again, it doesn't mean that we can't help people with their pain. I mean, we can alleviate some of that pain, but that's not what, that's not what we're there for. We're there to be a witness to someone on their journey to overcome whatever it is that they're struggling with. And the kind of take that into a mindfulness realm, allow yourself to be your own witness as you move through the profession and you navigate and negotiate. Okay. Here's what I'm really good at and why I want to kind of cultivate and things that I don't have to necessarily engage with that. Speaker 1 (01:05:29): Yeah. Well said now, where can people find you? Where can they find the book, social media websites? What do you got for us? Speaker 2 (01:05:39): Easy. People can go to my website. The website is integrative pain, science institute.com or one very long word, integrated pain science institute.com. The book is called radical relief, a guide to overcome chronic pain, which you can find on Amazon in most countries. If you go to either one of those two places, you'll find the book and all the information about me. I also want to plug another book Karen, in which you're involved in. Speaker 1 (01:06:03): Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. It's a couple of months out still. Yeah, Speaker 2 (01:06:08): I'm working. I'm the chief editor on a book that involves about 45 different physical therapists, some from academia, some from private practice and it's with regard to how physical therapists can use lifestyle interventions and practice that book will come out probably in the fall of 2021. And I want to plug it because it's an awesome book with, you know, as I mentioned, Speaker 1 (01:06:32): Amazed some amazing people involved, Speaker 2 (01:06:34): Amazing people. And Karen is one of those amazing people. Who's doing the chapter where she's offering the chapter on private practice, physical therapy and how to integrate lifestyle interventions into private practice PT. So yes. Check out my book, radical relief now, but look out for that book. Speaker 1 (01:06:50): Yeah. And you, and, and our lovely ginger garner. Yeah. Speaker 2 (01:06:54): Ginger Gara and I are the chief co-editors. Yeah. And then we're fortunate enough to have about 42 other amazing PTs from all over the globe actually. Speaker 1 (01:07:03): Yeah. Yeah. On different topics. Yeah. It's going to be cool. I'm looking, I can't wait to read everybody else's chapters. It's going to be awesome. And then social media, I think your social media is pretty easy. I think it's at Dr. Joe Tata across the board. Am I right? Speaker 2 (01:07:19): I've spent so much time just getting that. Yes. It's at Dr. Joe Tatta across the board. You can find me on Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, all the main ones. Speaker 1 (01:07:28): Yeah. Awesome. Well, Joe, thank you again so much. It's always, always have a great conversation. When you come on the podcast and you make me think of a lot of things past and present, so thanks so much for coming on. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. And everyone else. Thanks for tuning in. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Drs. Julie Sias and Jenna Kantor to the show for our annual end of the year review. I also wanted to welcome Dr. Alexis Lancaster in spirit. All three of these incredible women are the team that makes this podcast happen every week and I am eternally grateful for all of their hard work, support and love throughout the year.  In this episode, we discuss: The ups and downs of 2020 for each of us How to deal with fraudulent Google reviews  Being a brand new mom and a private practice PT owner  What we are hoping for in 2021 And so much more!  Resources:  Jenna Kantor Physical Therapy  Newport Coast Physical Therapy Renegade Movement and Performance  Karen Litzy Physical Therapy A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode! Learn more about the Redoc Patient Portal here.  More about Julie, Jenna and Lex I received my Doctor of Physical Therapy and Bachelor of Science in Biology degrees from Chapman University. I became a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist through the National Strength and Conditioning Association to better serve my wellness clients. I am also a member of the American Physical Therapy Association and Private Practice Section. In addition to working with my physical therapy and wellness clients, I provide consultation services for children and adults with neurological conditions. In my free time, I produce the podcast Healthy, Wealthy and Smart which features leaders in physical therapy, wellness and entrepreneurship. Fun Fact: I love the sun! I am thankful there are 277 days of sunshine a year in Newport Beach! From hiking Crystal Cove, sailing in the ocean, scuba diving the seas and kayaking through the back bay — there is so much to take advantage of! As your Doctor of Physical Therapy, my goal is to help you maintain your active lifestyle because working with you inspires me daily to get out of my comfort zone and try new things here in Newport Beach. Jenna Kantor, PT, DPT, is a bubbly and energetic woman who was born and raised in Petaluma, California. She trained intensively at Petaluma City Ballet, Houston Ballet, BalletMet, Central Pennsylvania Youth Ballet, Regional Dance America Choreography Conference, and Regional Dance America. Over time, the injuries added up and she knew she would not have a lasting career in ballet. This lead her to the University of California, Irvine, where she discovered a passion for musical theatre.  Upon graduating, Jenna Kantor worked professionally in musical theatre for 15+ years then found herself ready to move onto a new chapter in her life. Jenna was teaching ballet to kids ages 4 through 17 and group fitness classes to adults. Through teaching, she discovered she had a deep interest in the human body and a desire to help others on a higher level. She was fortunate to get accepted into the DPT program at Columbia. During her education, she co-founded Fairytale Physical Therapy which brings musical theatre shows to children in hospitals, started a podcast titled Physiotherapy Performance Perspectives, was the NYPTA SSIG Advocacy Chair, was part of the NYC Conclave 2017 committee, and co-founded the NYPTA SSIG. In 2017, Jenna was the NYPTA Public Policy Student Liaison, a candidate for the APTASA Communications Chair, won the APTA PPS Business Concept Contest, and made the top 40 List for an Up and Coming Physical Therapy with UpDoc Media. Lex is originally from the Finger Lakes Region of New York. She graduated from Utica College with her Bachelor's in Biology and her Doctorate in Physical Therapy. She also earned a graduate certificate in Healthcare Advocacy and Navigation. She is very passionate about empowering the people she works with and is driven by their success. Lex has worked with people of all ages and her passion lies within the treatment of performance athletes and pregnant and postpartum women. For Lex, the most important part of physical therapy care is ensuring that every person who sees her is given one-on-one attention, a personalized treatment program, and a plethora of resources to ensure ongoing results. Outside of Renegade Movement and Performance, Lex practices in pediatrics, owns and operates her website design company, and is an Adjunct Professor at Utica College. She enjoys hiking and dogs of all kinds. Read the Full Transcript below: Speaker 1 (00:01): Hello, welcome back to the podcast, everyone today, we're having an end of the year wrap up. We've done this every year, almost every year since the start of the podcast. And I'm joined by Dr. Jenna Kanter, Dr. Julie CEUs, and perhaps Dr. Lex Lancaster. She is currently driving through parts unknown in Vermont, so she can hop in. She can, if not, maybe we'll get her in at at at another time. But I just want to highlight the people who make this podcast happen because it is certainly not my, myself and myself alone. It's just impossible. So Jenna has been doing interviews for a couple of years now, and Julie has kind of been on board since the beginning almost I would say close to the beginning. Right. Speaker 2 (00:54): I think it's been five years. Yeah, Speaker 1 (00:56): Yeah, yeah. So she's been a part of the podcast behind the scenes doing the show notes beautifully. And then Lex Lancaster has been on board for the past year doing, helping with graphics. So I just it's for me, this is a big thank you to, to you ladies for being so wonderful and generous with your time and your gifts. So thank you so much. And let's start. So what I wanted to kind of start with is kind of talking about our highs and lows of 2020. So if you're listening, I mean, we, we all know that 2020 has been an exceptionally difficult year for almost everyone started out okay. For most people and then really started to go downhill pretty quick. So let's talk about, and then hot, like even through this, I think it's also important to note that good things have happened as well. So Jenna, why don't we start with you? Why don't you let the listeners know kind of, what's been your high and what's kind of been your low of 2020. Speaker 2 (02:08): Hi mom. I just want to first give a shout out to my mom, like I'm on a TV show. So I just want to say hi mom, I love you so much. Thank you for giving birth to me that one beautiful morning or afternoon. I'm not sure. Ooh, 20, 20, well, the low, I would say where, Oh, I want to talk about this because I know there are other practice owners who have dealt with it and I was a I was bullied and harassed online. And and, and this was for a group in which I do musical theater readings. It's a great group. I it's, that I've run into where I get a lot of patients, but the majority of people I know on there, I just know through musical theater and just performing, doing readings. And there were people who did not like how I ran the group. Speaker 2 (02:59): It's just like any place. There are people who don't like what you do. So they go off and do their own thing. And I eventually made a decision to block them out of my life because I didn't want this small section of people to still be present and judging me. I mean, I don't know about you. I like to feel the love in the room, not the hate. So I did that as a gift for myself finally, which did was very good. I was dealing with a lot of anxiety, just even knowing that they were around. Unfortunately, I wasn't strong enough to just handle it. I wish I could say it was, but I was like, Nope, I'm really unhappy right now what their presence. And they decided to go after my business and write false Google reviews. I was fine with the public social media posts on Facebook and everything. Speaker 2 (03:42): You know, didn't saying mine, you know, denouncing me. I was fine with that. I knew they were going to do that. That's why I kept them in my life for so long because I was so fearful of the public humiliation they would be aiming for. But then I was very okay with it. By the time I did it, you know, you come to that piece. But to me, the lowest part was having instilled, dealing with it, dealing with these false Google reviews where they've never been paid patients ever, ever. So I think that was, was a big, low yeah. And, and knowing that we're all going through it. And it's a hard year for so many of us. I felt like I had less people I could talk to about it because everyone's dealing with so much crap right now. So I would say that was like a very, very low point for me. And I know people have had so much worse. So I do want to acknowledge that this is so minuscule. I'm lucky my family is healthy. My, my friends have been healthy during this very, very lucky, but that was my own little piece of hew, toothpicks as positives go. Speaker 1 (04:54): I'm trying not to swear. I'm doing a good job Speaker 2 (04:59): This America way to network as, and do positive right back to back. Speaker 1 (05:04): Yeah, sure. Go ahead. Oh, right. Yeah. Speaker 2 (05:07): Cause it is I would say is, I'm not going to talk. I'm going to focus on business since I was already talking about business. So I'll keep it on that. Was the different branch. My practice took every business in physical therapy has been dealt with some sort of crap if they haven't, I'm so happy for you. But a lot of us have really dealt with some sort of big shift and, and stress and strain and sleepless nights, especially at the beginning of this and some States it's pretty new. It's new for the practices. For me during the shift, I was focusing on expanding more in-person and then of course I started doing more tele-health and now I'm a hundred percent tele-health yes. I refer out if they're not appropriate for tele-health yes. I'm a hundred percent. I don't see myself going because one, I love it. Speaker 2 (06:00): And that's the first thing to the performers I work with. Most of them can't afford that in person. Most of them can't, most of them don't have health insurance. And then the last thing with my practice I've developed these wellness programs. Yes. They're injury prevention, but honestly, no performers are Googling injury prevention. They're like my ankle hurts. I can't do boots. What's up. So, but with these wellness programs, it's not physical therapy. It's the many humans out there in the singing, acting, dancing world where they get the help they need from a PT. And then they're discharged when they're, you know, quote healthy, but their body's still not functioning to where they ultimately want it to be. That's where I'm coming in. And it's great. It's this, these group programs it's really supportive. I definitely have my own jokes in there. I'm a hundred percent myself. Speaker 2 (06:55): If anybody knows me, you're like, got it. And it's, and it's just a joy. The bonding, the, the growth everyone gets physically to get to where they are is just, it's, it's been the such a rewarding discovery and, and a lot of work to make it happen, but well worth it because just I'm happy, man. Like when you really get to do what you really want to do without even knowing that's what you really wanted to do all along until you actually get to do it. That's what I'm living right now. So yeah, I'm pretty happy about that. So that's my positive and I'll take it to the bank. Speaker 1 (07:31): Great. Now let's, let's take a step back to not to harp on the negative, but because I think this might help other people listening. What did you do when you were like, Oh my gosh, I'm getting these Google reviews for my business. I've never seen them. What did you do to mitigate that situation or if it's even possible Speaker 2 (07:55): Crying and vomiting? Let's see. What was the next? So I, I vomit when I get really stressed out. That's a new discovery in 2020. I don't recommend it. It doesn't make you slimmer just saying. So I do not promote that. Okay. [inaudible] so I already have a lawyer, but I even, I contacted Erin Jackson who is a great human my lawyer Stephanie wrote in, but I just, you know, who do I contact first? Because I knew this was now in some sort of it's the physical therapy where we have HIPAA. We have so many things legally we need to be careful about. And as much as I say, swear words, and I joke like there's liability for these things. Like, but this was just how do I handle this? Because Google reviews specifically, which I was fearful, I pre reported these people before it happened, because there was no way to block them on Google. Speaker 2 (08:52): Not because they were going to, I was going a little bit in the Cuckoo's nest. Like, how do I keep preventing? Cause they're doing all this stuff fine on social media, but just in case let's pre protect, there was no way to, well, getting Google reviews is difficult. So here's some things that you can do by hand that are suggested they, you can have friends report it. And if you have friends report it, make sure you have a written out exactly where they need to click step by step, what they need to do. And, and boom bought a bang. Another thing that I did is I contacted the patients. I felt comfortable contacting, cause that is a thing I'm saying, this is going on. I've never gotten a review from you. Would you please write a review so I can get some actual from actual patients on here. Speaker 2 (09:38): So I did outreach to those individuals as well. Which was great in that sense. I mean talk about like, you know, unexpected, positive. So that was good. Then with my lawyer, which we're still in the process of doing so a little bit slower in the holidays. It also, I'm just personally, not in any rush because I got so stressed out about it that just like, I'm okay, I've got, I've gotten zero patients from Google reviews, so it's not the end of the world. But she's writing out in legal jargon, what I'm going to be now sending to Google to ask it to be, and it's according to their policies, why these are inappropriate reviews. And so that is what our next step is. I have not met with anyone else yet, but because of enlight of how bored people are, are during the pandemic. Speaker 2 (10:29): And they're putting a lot more emphasis on these negative things, no matter how small or how big they I am in the process of being connected with the lawyer, through my lawyer to learn when I need to do a cease and desist. And when I, when I know it's actually necessary, I still am getting a little bit harassed by them, but I I'm. I'm okay. I'm good right now. But I do want to know, and that I look forward to learning, to be able to share with people like, Hey, here is when you hire the lawyer officially, because that is a good question. Lawyers should get paid for what they're doing, but it's just knowing when you bring that in, which is a very big deal that I think should just be common knowledge. And then where we were able to get one review, Oh, there's also a thing after you submit in there's you can write a post about it on Twitter and you tag people with Google. Speaker 2 (11:28): I forget who you tag. You guys will have to Google it. You'll have to Google the Google thing, but it you can do, I didn't get that far. I also was so hesitant to do that because then it would take it into the physical therapy world at large of, Oh, what's the going down with Jenna. I'm like, Oh my God, like it's literally children who are upset about musical theater. Readings has nothing to do. Like, no. Okay. And then my husband was helpful. He was able to get one of the reviews down by reporting the person's profile. Speaker 2 (12:04): And that was very good. So that was one there's still two that have written reviews. There are three with just one star reviews without writing anything. And none of them have been patients. And we believe that they created two false profiles to put in two of those one star reviews. Interesting. but at the end of the day, they're not in my Rolodex of patients, so they're not patients. So yeah, it's been a bit of a journey dealing with it, but that's a little bit of what I did. There's not one way to do it. There are suggestions on responding to the person where you can say, Hey, I'm so sorry to hear of this complaint. I don't have any records of you as a patient. Please feel free to email me at because there's no conversations that happen within the feed. It's like your reply and that's it. And people can look at it. That's Speaker 1 (13:02): Actually, that could be pretty helpful. Speaker 2 (13:05): My, my lawyer said right now, don't just because we, she was like, let's just, let's just, I'm fine with waiting right now. You know what? The level of stress gets so high, it got real bad for me to be throwing up from stress is a big thing. So the fact that I'm not throwing up, I'm doing well is good. So I'm okay with it being a slow occurrence because my body does start to shake going back into that world, which to me is also just another recognizer of why it's important to know when it's time to block certain people from your life. If they're making you shake and vomit, because you're stressing, like they're just not meant to be in your life. It's fun. It's that simple, you know? But yeah, no, it's, it's, it's it's a very humbling, very embarrassing situation to be dealing with. But I have learned that there are, there are definitely a lot more businesses right now dealing with that, unfortunately. Yeah. I wish people invested more time in the positive stuff to raise up to be the positive changes that we want rather than let's just tear people down because in that action, the wrong people are being torn down. Speaker 1 (14:20): Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that. And also, thanks for sharing what you did to kind of help as best you can at the moment. Kind of rectify some of that because now if people are listening and they go through that as well, they'll have at least an idea of like, okay, well here's a place where I can start. So thank you for that. Speaker 2 (14:36): Yeah. If anybody ever wants to talk some crap about what you're dealing with, I'm here for you. Speaker 1 (14:41): Yeah. Great. All right, Julie, let's go to you to your, your, your ups and downs of, I have a feeling that your, your and low point might kind of be the same thing, but I don't, I don't know. So go ahead. I'll, I'll throw it over to you. Yeah, Speaker 3 (14:59): Yeah. So I actually remember when we did the show last year, I said that I wanted 20, 20 to be more of a focus on more of my personal life and focusing on family and things in that direction, because in the past it had been all about my business and everybody has had challenges in the physical therapy world with their business. And we have with Newport coast physical therapy, we've actually come out strong. And that isn't really what I wanted to focus on because it's supposed to be personal. So I guess for my lows. Hmm. So me and Wade we've been together for 11 years. We had our 11 year anniversary. And when we're thinking about starting a family and everything, we were like, okay, we have to kind of celebrate the last year that we're going to have together. Just me and you. So 2020 we had like, all these things planned for our relationship. Speaker 3 (16:03): We were going to go to Switzerland, literally the day of the lockdown, that was our flight to Switzerland. And we were like, Oh no. Okay. So we can't do that. And then we had planned some things in the States, like going to national parks and all of those ended up closing down. And then, and then I I'm pregnant. I was pregnant with twins throughout all of this. So then as you know, I get further along in my pregnancy, it's getting harder to do anything just because pregnancy can for wound baby, but with two babies, it was just like, ah, I could give birth at any day. So I don't really want to be too far away from the hospital and everything. So I would say that for the lows, me and Wade didn't really get to kind of celebrate our last year together just as us and which is fine. You know, we, we, we made it work and did some other things, but I think that we didn't get to kind of grieve that aspect of our relationship changing. So that was a little bit of a challenge, but the highs, obviously Speaker 1 (17:15): I had my twins August Speaker 3 (17:19): In Westin and they're three months old right now. They are actually let's see, they're one month adjusted. So they were born two months early and they spent about two months in the NICU. So that was a little bit of a challenge, but given all the COVID and everything going on, luckily there was plenty of resources for my babies and they had great medical care and are super healthy now. So yeah, my highest definitely having my two boys, they're adorable and they're definitely a lot of work, all consuming basically, but hopefully in the next year, I'll get a better swing of, you know, balancing family life and managing my business and everything. So that's kind of a bit of a summary of my 2020 Speaker 1 (18:11): Now let's, let's talk about quickly for, cause you know, a lot of people that listen to this podcast, they're physical therapists and might be entrepreneurs, women kind of around in, in your stage of life who are thinking about I'm going to have children and what's going to happen to my business. How am I going to do this? So do you have any advice and, and what have you done with your business as, and I mean, twins, I goodness, but we should say that Julie is also a twin, so it's not shocking that you had twins. Speaker 3 (18:41): I wasn't surprised when they see that as having twins, I was like, you know what? There was a chance that was going to happen. Yeah. But I would say that for anybody that's in kind of a similar life stage, I fortunately, since my business model is pretty flexible in the sense that I can pick and choose when I take on patients, I don't have much business overhead just because of the, the mobile concierge practice model. That it's good for being a mom because I can kind of pick and choose when I want to take on clients. I would say that if you're, you know, the breadwinner of the family, that's a really tough position to be in because it's, it is really hard to balance everything because I'm going to be able to, you know, pick and choose clients that I want to see when I want to see them. Speaker 3 (19:35): And not everybody has that flexibility. So if you do own your business, it is a good time that maybe you could take a step back and be more on the business management side of things, where you can do things from home, from your computer and then hire somebody to go out and actually do the service. And I actually have a therapist that is doing some client visits for me right now, which thankful it's my best friend. So she's really chill to work with. But that could be a strategy that some people take on is that they end up doing some of the business management side of things instead. Speaker 1 (20:15): Yeah. So you're still working in the business. You're just not out in the field, so to speak because I mean, when you have a new, a new a newborn, I can only imagine that it takes up a lot of your time. Speaker 3 (20:30): Yeah. Every two to three hours, which, you know, if you're, you've never been around kids, I was surprised they eat that frequently. I was like, Oh my goodness. Speaker 1 (20:43): And you've got two of them, two miles to feed. Oh, that's so funny. And what, I guess, what has been your biggest aside from, you know, not getting a lot of sleep from being a new mom, is there anything that surprised you aside from how much children eat? You're like, what the hell? Why did no one tell me this? Speaker 3 (21:08): I'm trying to think. I think that the reality of taking care of a baby, like, I guess I thought it would be not as much of my time, but maybe it's because I have twins. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know any about anything about this, but it literally is like a 24 seven type situation right now. And I can only imagine for people that are going back to work at this point, because technically I've been off work for three months and not a lot of women are able to do that. They have to go back to work. I could see how challenging that would be. Cause if my twins were still in the NICU, so say I took off that six weeks of maternity leave and then had to go back to work before they even came home. That would be so tough to juggle. So it is a lot of work. Like it's the hardest job, just, just the physical toll it takes to be up and take care of babies. It's it's tough. Speaker 1 (22:08): And have you had pelvic health physical therapy? Speaker 3 (22:11): So I actually, haven't gone to a pelvic health physical therapist, not because of anything against it. I just haven't noticed any symptoms. Okay. So I do actually have a couple friends that are specialists in pelvic floor PT that I could reach out to. Maybe they would be testing me for certain things and be like, we need physical therapy. So that could be something I do in the future, but it's yeah. I fortunately have had like a very good recovery and haven't had to deal with anything on the surface at least. Speaker 1 (22:47): Excellent. That's so nice. Well, I love hearing your, your ups and downs and, and we should also say, cause I don't know that Lex is going to be able to come on here. Maybe we can splice her in later, but she did get married. So I can assume that would be her high point. If it's not, then she's, she's going to have some answering to her new brand new husband. I would assume that's her high point. And she also started her own practice in New Hampshire, which I would assume could, would also be a high point for her as well. And then what do you see happening moving forward? What are you, what are you, what are your goals, your dreams, if you will, for 2021, Jenna, I'll throw it back to you. Speaker 2 (23:34): Goals and dreams. Well we are moving to Pittsburgh. It's taken almost a full year, so I'm looking forward to moving there with husband and I have a dream office room cause I'm an actor as well still, and it's going to be decorated Disney theme. So I'm really excited to decorate and make my imagination finally come through and have the walls of tangled with the lanterns, hanging from the ceiling and have all my different collectibles up on display and my lights and my cameras and everything up permanently. So I don't have to keep putting it down and putting it under the bed in a New York studio apartment. I, that will be like Speaker 1 (24:21): For me, cannot wait, cannot wait, Julie, how about you? I'm definitely going to be going to Switzerland. Does I rebooked these tickets like three times and I don't know it's going to happen in 2021. I'm not from eight or tots with me. Well, yeah, go ahead Karen. I was gonna say I, if, if all goes well with 2021, I'll be in Switzerland in November. So you could come to a course, write it off. Oh my goodness. That's a great idea. What is the course? The course is only one day and if it happens I will tell you about it. Cause I don't think it's been announced officially yet. But it's just a one day course. So you can go to Switzerland, just pop over to burn for one day and then you pop out. Oh my goodness. It's it's the the, I think it's like the Thursday or Friday before Thanksgiving. Speaker 1 (25:25): All right. That'll be good. Cause the twins will be over one years olds. Okay. Throwing it out there. You guys, I will be in Switzerland. It's going to happen. Awesome. Well, I have to say Switzerland is really, really beautiful, so I'm sure you will love it. Love it, love it. I don't know. Should I talk about my highs and lows, I guess highs and lows. So I guess my lows were I think when, when everything happened here in New York and Jenna can probably corroborate this, but it was an, it was a little scary, you know, because it was everything locked down, nip. It, it locked down so quickly, but and nobody really knew what was going on. And I think that was a big, low, and I think I had, again, the sleepless nights and the anxiety about, well, what's what, what will happen with my practice? Speaker 1 (26:29): W what am I going to do? I see people in their homes, like you couldn't go anywhere, couldn't do anything. And, and so I think that, that, that sort of stress around that was definitely a low point professionally and then personally, well, my boyfriend and I broke up, but that's probably for the best in the long run. And then my sister had some health trouble, so it was a big sort of just like everyone else. 2020 was like a big sorta show. But that being said, the not knowing what I was going to do for work and being stressed as a low point turned into, I would say a high point along with Jenna is I started integrating tele-health, which is something I will continue to do. So now I do probably see half the people in person and half people via telehealth. Speaker 1 (27:23): And I love it. I love doing it. I think it's it's working very well. And I was also able to launch a business program to help physical therapists with the business and the business side of things. And that's been really fulfilling and getting nice reviews from that from people who have taken the course. So that, which makes me very happy because my whole anxiety was wrapped around. That was like, what do people take it? And they hate it and they think it's stupid and they don't want to do it. What am I going to do? And, and so, you know, you have all these doubts about like self doubts about what you do as a person and what you do as a therapist professionally. So I think those were, it was sort of a mixed bag of highs and lows. Speaker 1 (28:08): And I guess what I'm looking forward to, I too, am looking forward to going to Switzerland. And and just being able to travel and see people, like, I would really love to see my parents who I haven't seen in almost a year. And so that would be lovely because we did not, I did not see family for Thanksgiving or Christmas and probably won't until we all are vaccinated. Just to give everyone a little sense of that, like we're doing the right thing. So I think that's my, the biggest things I'm looking forward to is seeing my family, being able to see friends in person and colleagues in person, because, you know, we miss seeing all of you guys too, you know, so I think that's the things that I'm most looking forward to for 2021 is, and I don't, I don't think that things will go back to the way they were quote unquote, but I think that they'll be an improvement on where we are now. I don't know. What do you guys think? Speaker 4 (29:18): Yeah. I think having our support systems slowly return is going to be really, really fulfilling to just for humans. Like we love human contact and our relationships having all those kinds of slowly come back together is going to be amazing. Yeah. Speaker 1 (29:35): Yeah. I love the way you put that. Having our support systems back is huge. Yeah. Hugging. Yeah. I miss hugs. I know, I know one of my friends hugged me like a friend that lives here in New York. She hugged me and I was like, you know what to do? I froze up. I was like, Oh my God, what is she doing? Hugging is so good. Speaker 2 (29:57): Why my husband gives me time limits for my hugs. Cause I'll keep hugging. I love hugs and I miss hugs. I even miss the Wilson's a musical theater specific thing, but go into a musical theater audition and all the annoying screens of people reuniting with someone they only saw just a week ago, you know, cause we won't want to feel cool, but the people will see and know, but then we do it too. When we run into the people we haven't seen. Who's guilty of it. But yeah, hugging, hugging is just beautiful. Speaker 1 (30:32): Yeah. Human contact. Speaker 4 (30:36): What if on my flight to Switzerland, I have a layover in New York and then I can see you. Speaker 1 (30:45): Yeah. What is that quick? Have a quick one day layover and then Optus. Switzerland. Oh, I know. I forget. You're in California, such a long flight. Speaker 2 (30:54): You need to get pizza. You would need to get Levine's cookies. Oh yeah. And what else, what else would the food wise I'm thinking? I was thinking, Speaker 1 (31:06): Yeah, I just had, I just had a Levine cookie a couple of weeks ago. I eating live only a couple blocks. So the vain bakery was, it got really, really popular because of Oprah. It was like one of Oprah's favorite things like maybe a decade ago. Yeah. That's why they're so popular. But the cookies are like scones, like they're thick and gigantic. Like I got a cookie, it took me like three days to eat it. Speaker 2 (31:31): Yeah, no they're thick. It's, Speaker 1 (31:33): It's a lot, it's a lot of cookie dough there. But they are, they are pretty delicious. Now. You'd swear. We were sponsored by Levine. Speaking of sponsors, I have to say thank you to our sponsor net health. Speaker 4 (31:47): Great segue right there. Speaker 1 (31:50): Just getting it to me. So net health has been sponsoring the podcast for a couple of years and I'm really, really grateful and thankful to them and their support, their continued support. And net health has grown by leaps and bounds since they first started sponsoring the podcast. And so I'm really happy to see their growth, their Pittsburgh company, by the way, Jenna. Oh yeah. Pennsylvania company. And and so I'm really, it's really been exciting for me to see their growth and their movement upward and the fact that they are doing their best to help healthcare providers, which I think is awesome. And they also have, and not that they're telling me to say this, but they really do have some really good webinars. So they're usually free. So if you want like good webinars, business-wise they really have some good stuff, especially if cash based or non cash based. So I would definitely check out their webinars because they're all pretty good and usually free. I like free. Yeah. And everybody loves free. Okay. So I guess I'll ask you guys one last question, knowing where you are now in your life and in your career, what advice would you give to your younger self? Speaker 4 (33:05): Okay. I should be prepared for this because you know, this happens every single episode and did not think this question was coming at me. Okay. So the first thing that comes to mind, and I think it's important is that you should always maintain a sense of curiosity about everything going on in your life professionally, personally, I think that if you're open-minded and you can kind of think on things a little bit differently, just because you're not closed off, you might be able to see solutions in ways that you didn't think of before. So that is very theoretical, but I just think that that kind of vibe, if you maintain that sense of curiosity about everything, it can kind of lead you in new directions. What do you think? I think that's great advice. Speaker 2 (34:00): Oh my God. I'd love that. I, I I feel like I should have gone first because it naturally segues to what you just said. Oh let's Speaker 4 (34:10): Oh no, Speaker 2 (34:11): No, no, no. I think it's perfect. I loved it. I was like, Oh, you know, like for me, I get my best ideas on the toilet, but I still, I thought that was amazing. I was thinking the first thing that popped into my head was don't waste your time on the, focus on where, what your vision is for your life and put all your energy into that as it, and this is why it's like, why it's so good to yours. And now like the candles, I was like, Oh my God, this is perfect. It's so great for us. Speaker 1 (34:42): Perfect. I think that's both great advice. And, and I know I asked this question every time and how I would answer it, knowing where I am now in my life and in my career. I think that what I would tell myself, even like fresh out of, out of college is when it kind of goes along with maybe what a combination of what you guys both said. But what I would tell myself is to don't limit myself by what I see other people doing. Because sometimes like when I first graduated, I knew PTs worked in a hospital, they worked in a clinic and that was kind of it, you know? And so I didn't never saw that sort of broader vision. And so I think I would tell myself to look to people outside of the profession to help you your state in your own profession and seek out those people that have, that genuinely have an interest in you as a person and, and want to be a part of your life and a part of your success. Because I think I've fallen victim to people who I thought had my best interests at heart, and I'm a trusting person. And as it turns out they didn't. So I think really, I think as you get older, you sort of, you maybe, maybe I just have a better sense of who I am and what I want. And so I'm no longer kind of easily swayed and convinced by people who in the end don't really have my best interest at heart, Speaker 4 (36:28): But that's one of the qualities I love about you though. Karen is how trusting you are. I think that does serve you too in your life. So I think that don't ever lose that. That is something that it's, it's a gift and not everybody can be vulnerable. And I think that you wear that really well. Speaker 1 (36:46): Oh, well, that's nice. Yeah. I don't think I would, I'm not going to become that cynical of a new Yorker, but I'm going to, Jenna knows what I'm talking about. But I think that I'm just going to just be a little bit more discerning on the people that I choose to kind of surround myself with. And I think that I've been doing that more recently over the last couple of years, and I think that it has served me well, but that's what I would tell my younger self out of college anyway. Yeah. All right. So any last bits, any last, anything Speaker 4 (37:23): We're all gonna make it we're all gonna survive hopefully. Yeah. Speaker 1 (37:27): Yes. Rules. Yes. Jenna will be going to Florida next year because she missed it for CSM. I know, I know no CSM in Florida this year, but we did videotape our performance, little plug, Jen and I to have a thing at CSM on February 11th at 7:00 PM. Join us for our prerecorded topics on social media, social media. Yeah. Basically. How do you social media, mainstream media to improve your presence as physical therapist and then I think, but I'm not sure we might have a live Q and a afterwards at 8:00 PM. We're so clear. Speaker 1 (38:10): So we'll find out. So anyway thank you so much, Julie and Jenna and Lex for all of your hard work and all of your commitment and I love you all, all three of you. I was going to say, I love you both. And then a Lex, and I'm just getting, I love all three of you. And I really, from the bottom of my heart. Thank you so much. Thank you as well. All right, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. I wish you all the very best and, and fingers crossed for a better 20, 21 and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.

In this episode, John Honerkamp talks about all things running. John Honerkamp, affectionately known as Coach John, has coached runners of all ages and abilities for more than 20 years. A graduate of St. John's, John was an eight-time All-Big East and six-time All-East (IC4A) athlete while running for the Red Storm. He earned 12 Big East All-Academic accolades and was the youngest semi-finalist in the 800-meters at the 1996 U.S. Olympic Trials. John is deeply involved in the New York City running community. He launched the Off the Hook Track Club, a local training group based in the Red Hook neighbourhood of Brooklyn and created The Run Collective — born out of a desire to unite the running community and connect, collaborate, and celebrate all efforts from various clubs, crews, and people in the city. Today, we hear some of the mental blocks and physical issues that John often sees with his students, and how he creates milestones to motivate himself to keep running. John tells us about choosing the right shoe, when to replace them, and he gives some advice to new runners, all on today's episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast. Key Takeaways "Everyone's a runner. Some people just choose not to run." "You can't change overnight." "It takes 3 or 4 weeks to find a rhythm, sometimes even longer. Just be patient, slow down, and make sure it's fun." "Taking care of yourself is really important. There are a lot of little things like massage, stretching, eating right, and all these things that are small things that add up to bigger gains." Suggested Keywords Running, Coach, Exercise, Jogging, WaterPik, Massage, Wellness, Health, To learn more, follow John at: Website:          Run Kamp Facebook:       @johnhonerkamp Instagram:       @johnhonerkamp LinkedIn:         https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnhonerkamp Email:              john@runkamp.com WaterPik Power Pulse Showerhead WaterPik Water for Wellness Council Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:                https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927 Read the full transcript here:  Speaker 1 (00:00): Hey, John, welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to have you on. Speaker 2 (00:05): Thanks for having me. Yes. Speaker 1 (00:06): A fellow new Yorker, just over the bridge in Brooklyn. Speaker 2 (00:10): That's right. I'm a couple blocks from prospect park. So I do a lot of my running and activities and in prospect park. So I feel fortunate to have access to that space. Speaker 1 (00:20): Perfect. Perfect. So now let's talk a little bit more about you before we go on. So people know you're a run, a running coach and you've been running for the good portion of your life, but can you kind of fill in some of the gaps and let the listeners know a little bit more about kind of what led you up to where you are today in the running world? Speaker 2 (00:40): Yeah. I was fortunate to have an uncle that lived next door to me, and he was trying to lose weight and training for the marathon. Either the New York or the long Island marathon or both, this is probably like 1982, 83. And to DeVos's neighbor, he would just bring me along to some of these 5k and 10 K races. And that was kind of like in the first kind of first a second running boom. And, you know, I do the kids fun run, which to be honest, not a lot of kids were doing, it was usually about a mile distance. And then it gradually, I would, you know, after a year or two, I would, you know, take a stab at the 5k, which was a pretty far distance for seven or eight year old. But I just got exposed to running at an early age and, but not really, I mean, competitive against myself, maybe the clock, but not super serious. Speaker 2 (01:24): I did other sports, but when I w when I got to high school, when I went out for the cross country and track team, and we had a pretty good high school in sports in general. And I kind of had a leg up as far as I've been running for races for a couple of years. And I kind of had, you know, a little bit more experienced than the average freshman, but I definitely was better at running than basketball, football, baseball. I was very good on defense and I realized that equates to like, not scoring a lot of baskets, but it really annoying the other competitors where I had a good engine. And so, you know, I ran very well in high school. I got recruited and I went random, got a full scholarship to St. John's in Queens and ran there for four years. Speaker 2 (02:10): And I was fortunate enough to get better each year. And I had a really good year, my junior year and 1996, I qualified for the Olympic trials and the 800 meters. And that was also the year that the Olympics were in the U S and Atlanta. So it was just actually that kind of a perfect year. It was 20 years old. I got, I just advanced really, really well. That's, that's that's spring season dropped about four seconds of my 800, which is a pretty good chunk of time for that distance. The next thing you know, I found myself at the NCAA at the Olympic trials competing in Europe as the 22 and as a 20 year old. So that was kind of the beginning of it. And then obviously I got into professional running post-collegiate Lee. I ran for a team Reebok team based out of Georgetown university, but the legendary coach, Frank Gagliano. Speaker 2 (02:51): And I did that for a couple of years training for the trials in 2000. And in 2001, I moved and I was living in DC for those three years. And then I moved back to New York and I was still competitive. I ran for the New York athletic club, but I had to gradually kind of turned from competitive runner to not necessarily weekend warrior. I was still running a fair amount and I'm still competing, but I was focused on other things and then got into coaching and initially at running camps over the summer as a college kid, and then I coached high school was my first gig when I was coaching. When I was running professionally, I coached high school down in Virginia and then got up here in New York. And next thing I know I was coaching. I worked for the New York Roadrunners for five plus years and handled all their training and education and launched virtual training platforms where I was coaching 5,000 runners for the New York city marathon. At one time, the life I was just emailing people all the time, but it really gave me a nice quick you know, again, it's just different. I mean, there's a lot of same principles and at whatever level you're at and running, but coaching the folks that maybe aren't elite or don't have two hours to take a nap every day and do all the recovery things that we'll probably talk Speaker 1 (03:55): About are most people. Speaker 2 (03:58): Absolutely. I got a really, you know, a crash course in coaching, like the everyday adult who has two jobs and has kids and running as again, as I can sneak it in on the weekends, trying to get in before your kids get up, I'm finding I do that myself now being a father too. Yeah, so I started early and I never got burned out from it. I always had great coaches that didn't run me into the ground. And there's plenty of stories out there where kids, whatever sport we're talking about, or even other disciplines like music or dance or art or whatever, if you do too much, and it's not fun anymore, and you start not liking it. And I was able to, even though I didn't enjoy it all the time for the most part, I really enjoyed running throughout my life and at different levels of competitiveness. Speaker 2 (04:40): And and I'm very proud that I, I do, I do call myself a I've run races and stuff, but I'm not offended anymore when people call me a jogger or they asked me how my jog was. I actually realized that I was doing a lot of jogging, even when I'm at the elite level, the recovery runs were very easy paced. So I'm quite proud to be a jogger. And but yeah, that's kinda like my quick and dirty version of how I got into running and the kind of trajectory that I've been on. And again, I've been running for about 35 years and probably kosher for close to 25 at various Speaker 1 (05:12): Amazing. So you've coached, we can easily say you've coached thousands of people. Speaker 2 (05:17): Absolutely. Yeah. The technology and the online platforms recently, it does make it easier, very scalable. And you can say, yeah, Speaker 1 (05:24): Yeah, amazing. And just so people know the way John and I met was through so people who who listened to this or see me on social media, you know, that I'm part of the water Waterpik water for wellness council as is John. So they've got two new Yorkers and we're both council members. And one of the things that we have been working with is a Waterpik power, pulse, therapeutic strength, massage, shower, head, try and say that 10 times fast. But we'll talk about kind of how, how John sort of incorporates that with his runners and any benefits that they're seeing from, from switching a shower head, which is pretty easy. But before we get into all of that, John, let's talk about some of the common complaints or common issues that you're seeing with your runners. And just so people know, we spoke a little bit before we went on the air here. And the one thing I really want to hone in on first before we get to the physical things that everybody thinks of that happens with runners, but there's the mental side of it too. And sometimes that could be the more important side. So talk to me about what kind of mental blocks you're seeing from your, your students. Speaker 2 (06:40): Yeah, I mean, mentally it's it's funny because people, when they find out that I've given coaching all these years and been running and maybe I was faster and fast and slow is a relative term, but you know, competed at the Olympic trials, they're always Oh, well, you wouldn't want to coach me because I'm not a real runner or, Oh, I don't run like you. And I'm like, how do you run? You put one foot in front of the other, you leave the ground and move forward. It's very simple. And so people often have a love, hate, or just hate relationship of running because either it was a punishment for other sports growing up, we had to do laps. Oftentimes it had to do with pre-season conditioning. And if you're coming off the summer and like, you like me in high school, the first couple of years, you didn't do your homework over the summer. So you show up and you're, you know, you're out of shape and you're doing laps and it's hot. I remember that in football practice as an eighth grader, just being like miserable and like running was, was, was terrible, Speaker 1 (07:30): Especially in the Northeast when you've got the heat and the humidity and everything else. Yeah. Speaker 2 (07:34): So or they, you know, it was a gym class and they had it, they know the presidential fitness test and they had to do a time tomorrow on a terrible thing. But like, I was actually good at that because I liked running ahead at like an early traction to running. And I was doing pretty well at it, but for the most people, it was not fun. And it was just an awful experience. So whether they come to they're new to running in their adult life, or they were even if they were faster and fitter and did other sports as a, as a youngster that maybe they took 10, 20 years off based on whatever. And now they're getting back to it. And they're really the mental block of, Oh, I'm not a runner and maybe I shouldn't do this. And you know, and that is really oftentimes getting people to accept that they, that they're falsely claiming that they're not a runner when they're really just, I always say, everyone's a runner. Speaker 2 (08:22): Some people just choose not to run or they don't know how to start. So I really enjoyed that process of getting people over that mental hump, if it exists of, Hey, you're a runner I want to find out where you're at, and then we're going to take you from there to where you want to go. And you need to know where you are before, you know, where you're going. And so it's really like, I think oftentimes changing their mindset and saying, it's okay to run 10 minute miles or 12 minute miles or seven minute miles. I don't care. I like numbers and data when I'm crunching numbers about your training and maybe how you paced properly or improperly. So I'll get geeky about that. But I don't really care. I, I coach someone who runs 15 minute miles the same as I would someone coaching seven minute miles. Speaker 2 (09:01): And so it's just the mental space that they're in of, Oh, I shouldn't be here. I don't belong. I'm not really doing it right. And oftentimes they'll say, Oh, I'm not running is not for me. I get this all the time. I can't run more than a block. And I'm always like, well, what block you running up? Is it uphill at altitude when you're carrying a backpack of weights? Because probably most people could run a block and they're just running too fast. And they think of running as being painful. So that has to hurt. But to be honest, most of my training, especially for like a marathon, for example, I have a lot of first-time marathoners and most of the running is actually easy. Pace. Marathon pace is actually quite easy. It's just hard to do for 26 miles. So the barrier of like not pacing yourself or not going out too fast for a couple of minutes where they have to stop, those are quick fixes in my opinion. And that's the mental side of things. And then there's a couple of common physical issues that come up, which I can talk about for sure as well. Speaker 1 (09:54): Yeah. I know. I love the, that sort of mental barriers, because I think if we're talking about new, new to new to running folks or folks who maybe took a year, five years, 10 years off, and they're coming back to it, like you start and you think to yourself, God, it's taking me 15 minutes to run a mile. I feel like such a loser, everyone else, like, cause you hear Oh, eight minute mile, seven minute miles. Like that's where you should quote unquote, should be. If you want to run a marathon, you don't want to be running for seven hours. This is, you know what I mean? And, and I think that that's, that can be really difficult for people and kind of turn them off before they even start. So what kind of techniques do you have for someone like that who's coming to you saying, I feel like such a loser. I can only run a 15 minute mile or 18 minute mile, whatever it is. Speaker 2 (10:48): Yeah. I think I also encourage people to have a running log or a diary, which is an extra step, but it also helps you get progress. It also helps you with injury prevention and to deal with injuries when you do have them, which I'm sure we'll get into, but I often buy I'll run by minutes. So it's like today you're doing 20 minute run versus a three mile run or a five miles. So they don't honestly know how many now, if they have a GPS watch and they're tracking things, they'll know after the fact that, Oh, that was the 13 minute mile or whatever, but I'll run by minutes. So you don't, you know, and then that, I think sometimes it's a different mindset or a way of tracking where it does free you up a little bit of not having to do the three miles in 30 minutes. Speaker 2 (11:23): That's easy math. That's only 10 minutes or whatever it is. You just run for 20 minutes or whatever it is, 30 minutes, 40 minutes. And even when you get in your longer runs for longer distances, you're, you're, you're increasing by five or 10 minutes, not a full mile. Sometimes I liked that worked and that's kind of how I'd run anyway. I'll just do a 30 minute shakeout run or something and I'm not right. Especially if it's not a workout, it's a workout quality day where I'm doing six times 800 or I'm doing something like that. It'll, it'll be more important to know the pace and effort, but most of the running, just getting out there and doing it. Yeah. Speaker 1 (11:55): So it's like, you, you can accomplish that 20 minutes. You get that win and you gradually build your confidence, right? Yeah. No, that makes perfect sense. I really liked that. And I also like keeping a running log or a running diary. It's the same thing. We tell people if they want to lose weight, one of the, almost every nutritionist or dietician will tell you to keep a food diary. I do that with patients with chronic pain, I'll have them keep a pain diary so that they can kind of keep track of maybe what they did and what their pain levels were and things like that. So it doesn't work for everyone, but I think it works. Speaker 2 (12:28): I have a quick story about that when I was just just first year as a professional runner, I had all these shin problems. I got down to DC and I felt like this kind of like loser, cause everyone was just professional runners. They're all qualifying for the Olympics and trying to qualify for the Olympics. And I had shin splints. So I was like running 20 minutes by myself and I couldn't work out. And I was seeing like a, you know, PT person and I was doing exercises and just seemed like I wasn't getting anywhere. It wasn't improving. And then the PT said, Hey, you should really just monitor your pain on a scale of one to 10. And obviously you have a left shin and a right shin and both were hurting me. So I thought that was really silly and kind of stupid as a, as a 22 year old. Speaker 2 (13:05): And but I started doing it cause I had nothing else. I wasn't running riding much of my youth log. Other than I ran 20 minutes. I didn't have to take me a long to write what I did cause it wasn't a lot. So I had stuff to write about and to be honest, you know, say I had a six out of 10 or seven out of 10 was the pain level. And then all of a sudden, as I was ranking it throughout the weeks I was doing these PT exercises and, you know, strength exercises. And I'm like, are these really working kind of going through the motions? But then I did realize like one week or so in the sixes were fives and the fives were four weeks. And so I w if I didn't have that to document, I wouldn't know, I wouldn't be able to see the trend of in the right direction. Speaker 2 (13:43): So then I got more excited and I was more diligent about the exercises and I did them correctly. It was more intention. And that was really helpful because I could see progress where if I didn't have that, I would just be like, Oh, my shins hurt and not, you know, see, you know, again from five to four and everyone has their own relative scale of that, but it's just for that each person. And so that, I always tell that story. It was, I thought it was really silly, did it anyway. And it really helped me kind of snap out of that mode where I was like, wow, that really I could see progress. And I wouldn't be able to do that without having the data or the, or the documentation that I have it writing it down. So I'm a big believer in that. And I really it's, it's fun to see that you're, you're doing that with your patients as well, because that's one way to, you know, this, you can't remember everything and it's, we're all busy. Speaker 2 (14:29): And so if you can write it down and go back to it, even if they don't see the trend that you look at their, their, their diary, they might not see. And they're not going to be able to remember all these things, but if you can like read through their notes, you oftentimes, the coach will we'll pick up stuff before the athlete. And that's just like being a detective. Oftentimes I'm a detective as a coach, try to piece together. And the more information we have as coaches or detective detectives, you can get the root of the problem quicker. So document everything, it's, it's kind of like old school, but I, I can't speak more highly about that because that's really a game changer for me as a young 22 year old, but even to my athletes today. Speaker 1 (15:09): Yeah. Awesome. And now you mentioned shin splints. So let's talk about it. One of the common complaints that you get from your runners are shin splints. So as a running coach, what do you do with that? Speaker 2 (15:21): Yeah, it's funny. I was thinking about this in prep for this. And I got the same similar injuries as an elite athlete, as I do now is like weekend warrior. You know, dad, Bob jogger you know, shin splints and, and that's, shit's meds are pretty common because someone who's new to the sport either they're doing nothing. And now all of a sudden they're running 10, 20 miles a week, or they're someone who maybe was jogging and then they're training for a marathon all of a sudden, and they're upping their volume. So it's usually just an overage, an overuse issue. It can lead to stress fractures and things, a little more serious, but for the most part, if you have a good pair of shoes, which is super important, you don't need a lot of equipment, although it is getting colder here in the Northeast, and you do need to layer up a little bit, but you really just need a good pair of shoes. Speaker 2 (16:04): So that's really important and making sure that you're not doing too much too soon, because if someone is not shepherded you know, they're worried about calling themselves a runner and they get excited. If for whatever reason they get into the New York city marathon through the lottery or something, it's very easy to get overexcited and do too much too soon. And then you're kind of sitting on the sidelines. So it's really just kind of, and then I think a lot of new runners or new athletes, it's tough for them to decipher between pain and injury or soreness being uncomfortable. It's a guy I got to run through it that could lead to like, well, actually that pain is telling you something to slow down or to back off. And sometimes it is kind of navigating through aches and pains that just come with doing something new and doing it more often. So that's something that's always tough to decipher first time through, like, if you've never had shin splints, you're like, what are they? Like? You can ignore them and they don't go away and they become bigger problems. So shin splints, plantar, fasciitis, Achilles issues muscle poles it band with junk currently dealing with now my knee. Those are just kind of the common things that any runner will get, whether you're a professional at being or someone just starting out. Speaker 1 (17:13): And what are your thoughts on cadence? So oftentimes we'll all read or I'll see that if sometimes if you up your cadence and shorten your stride length when you're running that it's beneficial for some of these injuries, what are your thoughts on that? Speaker 2 (17:32): Yeah, I think if there's a chronic issue that keeps reoccurring, I definitely will kind of look at that, but oftentimes, and actually this is a good kind of tip for someone who's new to running. They often want to me to see them run the first time and like fix their form. And if they're 45 years old, like I am, you've been running for 45 years a certain way, or maybe 44 years because you didn't run as a six month old. But and my son just took his first steps this week. So that's exciting, but it's, you know, you're gonna get you, I, if you gotta get chased by a dog, you're gonna run a certain way. And so you don't need to change something you've been doing drastically, unless it's a chronic issue. That's always happening. People often say there's a breathing. Speaker 2 (18:15): How do I breathe in through the nose, the mouth? I said, however, don't even think about it. It's when you have a side cramp, that's keeps reoccurring that I tell people to kind of pay attention to that. But for the most part, don't worry about your form. Don't worry, your breathing just kind of get out there. And if it's something where you want to pass the time and count your steps, or there's some GPS devices that help you count. I really just pay attention to that. If there's something that's reoccurring, because otherwise I feel like you've been doing something and creating all this muscle memory for all these years and to drastically change form. And I often I'll hear this a lot where, Oh, my doctor told me I should run on my toes. I'm a heel striker. Well, then I see people running on their tiptoes in the park. Speaker 2 (18:55): I'm like, what are you doing? I know you can't just go from that to that. Yeah. When you run faster, you're naturally up on your toes. There's obviously certain shoes will help facilitate that. But like this, a lot of fast runners that run up their heel strikers, you don't have to be a toe runner, but I, I hear that a lot where my doctor said, or my coach or someone said on my toes and I'm like, not like a ballerina. So those are things where I think if you hear someone say, do this or work on your form, I think there's things to work on, but it's it's not something we want to change overnight because that could lead to overcompensating. And just other issues that I think people may make you maybe worse off than you were with just kind of figuring out something else, but your current form. Speaker 2 (19:37): And you can always improve things with drills and stretching and flexibility, which obviously the the power pulse therapeutic strike massage is, has helped us do. And we do even in my mid forties where I'm spitting up and spending a couple minutes a day focusing on that. But you can't change things. Even if you're 25 years old, it's still a lot of muscle memory made it. So you can't change it overnight just to be patient with that. And don't worry about it until it's kind of a problem that you see a persist, you know? Totally. Speaker 1 (20:07): Yeah. And you mentioned shoe selection. So this is always a question that I get as a PT. I'm sure you get it all the time, multiple times a week or hundreds of times a season, what shoes should I get? What sneakers should I get? And everyone wants to know what brand, what this would that. So what is your response to, what shoe do I get? Do you get, do you have like some guidelines to follow or what do you tell your, your athletes and your runners? Speaker 2 (20:34): Yeah, that's, you're absolutely right. I get that a lot. And it's really, I always tell folks, there's like, you know, everyone knows they're running brands, you know, there's new balance, Nike, this Brooks, you know, they all Saccone Mizuno, Hoka is on. Elena is new on running as a new, at a new company out of Switzerland. All those shoes will have the gamut. They'll have super neutral shoes, neutral being like you don't, you have a high arch, you don't need a lot of support. They have kind of the middle of the road where you have some support, some cushion, then you have like, you know, the Brooks base, for example, it's called the Brooks beasts or the new balance nine nineties. They're, they're meant for heavy duty. You know, someone might have a flat foot. And so there's the whole gamut. So there's usually, there's a shoe that's in that line. Speaker 2 (21:24): That's going to work for you. And you might not know that. And I was people tell people to go to a running store if they can, because, and they get intimidated by the Wallace shoes and they go for the pretty ones, oftentimes, but every shoe brand will have the same kind of like kind of small, medium, large, or they'll have the categories of neutral cushion all the way to really support and really corrective shoes and some shoes that are going to fit certain feet better. You know, and I've done some brand work for my business where I'm affiliated with a certain brand and I have to wear those. I'm always hoping that I can wear those and they're going to keep me healthy. But even when I'm repping those brands, I'll say, I don't, you don't have to wear the shoe that I'm wearing, even though I'm getting paid by that company to do various things, the shoe companies should want you to be healthy because then you can run and do more and more. Speaker 2 (22:12): So you know what one or two shoes might brands might work better for your foot? And some shoes are just run bigger. Some run wider as far as the shoe brands, but if you'd like a certain brand, historically, that's what you will and others haven't. But try on a bunch, take notes, document how you feel in them, but that every, every shoe company will have something for you. It's just going into a shoe store or doing some research of asking questions. And I was people that always afraid to go into a running store. They're there for mainly for beginner runners, because once you're like me and you know what you like, you just, you can, you can either get it from the store or you order it online shoes. I it's, you know, and obviously if I work for the new brand, I need to kind of re if I have to familiarize myself with different options, but it's really, I can't tell you, I mean, I can look at your foot and kind of see, okay, you're have a wide foot, you have no arch. Speaker 2 (23:06): You probably need a supportive shoe, but that's not like a blanket thing. You know, you also look at the wear of people's shoes from previous shoes and you can see where they're wearing down and I'm a podiatrist. But again, back to being a detective, you can, if you can look at things and say, but even my neighbor, the other day was like, what shoes should I wear? I don't like these they're too squishy. I'm like, well, you probably need a little bit more support. They're probably not too soft for you. Sure enough. I gave him the middle of the road running and these are great. It's also probably, I don't know how old the ones he was wearing were. So that's another problem. You go to the running store, you try on something a, maybe you're wearing heels all day at work, and then you go and try this awesome shoe on it's fluffy, and it's great. Speaker 2 (23:45): Then you go home and run out on a couple of times. And it's like, ah, maybe this is rubbing me the wrong way. I'm getting a blister. And oftentimes there's also the sizing. If you're a size 10 dress shoe, you might be a 10 and a half running shoe. And I'm someone who actually is 10 and a half in dress shoe and running shoe. But some of my spikes and performance shoes like flats and more racing shoes made it might've been a 10 because you actually want them either. So those are some other things to kind of think about sizing. Speaker 1 (24:13): What is the, what is the running, the mileage that you put on your sneakers before it's recommended to change? Speaker 2 (24:21): Yeah. I think the industry says the two 50 to 500, which is a big range. So it also, it depends on how often you're running, what surfaces, if you're running on the treadmill every day, then obviously you're probably getting less wear and tear than if you're running on the trails, getting them all dirty and stuffing them up on rocks and stuff like that. So, I mean, I would say close to the, and sometimes people say, I'll just say you should get shoes depending how much you're running like two a year. If not more, if some people would wear the same shoes for three years, I'm like, you probably be, yeah. So you need to invest in that, put that on your, on your shopping lists for the holidays or whatever. But I mean, I'll, and I also do this where I don't wait for the one pair of shoes to kind of run out, especially if I, if I like a shoe and I'm especially to train for a marathon, I might be, I might have one pair of shoes for a couple of weeks. Speaker 2 (25:09): I'll get another pair of shoes and I'll start alternating them. Actually one gets cycled out because you kind of know, people often say, how do you know, well, your knees start hurting more. You shouldn't start hurting more and it's not an injury. It's just more of an achy soreness and that's usually stuff. And also I get much more motivated when I put new shoes on you kind of like, you're more anxious to get out there and you know, you do have to break them in sometimes depending on what type of shoe they are. And, you know, I would just jump in, in a marathon without breaking in those shoes. But I mean, I've heard, I would say two 50 or 300, I feel better about, but I've read and I've seen, you know, up to 400 to 500, which is a little higher than I liked, but depending on what type of running you are and how hard you are on the shoes and what surfaces you, you, you could last, but definitely I think, you know, more than one pair of shoes for sure for the year. Yeah. Speaker 1 (25:59): Great, great, excellent advice. And now before we start to kind of wrap things up, what I'd love to hear is maybe you have a new runner, right? Because the majority of people, like we said, let's be honest, are more recreation. Runners are not professional runners. They might be new to running, or they're running after a little bit of a break. So if you could give that runner who you've probably seen thousands of times what would your top three tips be for those new runners? Speaker 2 (26:34): I would say, give it have some patience. It's like, you know, again, even if your S your pace is too fast at first block and you're stopping, you know, I always said, like, it takes three or four weeks to kind of find a rhythm sometimes even longer. So just be patient slow down, make sure it's fun. Whether that's, you know, I love the running community here in New York. It's so vast. It's actually a card to keep track of all the things that are going on. And even if you're in a smaller city, it's usually like their local running store and there's, there's, you know, you go get a beer or coffee afterwards. It's a great community sport. Cause it's, there's a lot of, there's a lot less barriers involved in entering the sport and you can also be a Walker everyone's kind of invited to the party. Speaker 2 (27:13): So, so yeah, I would say, you know, give it time patients make it fun, make it community oriented. Although I do my best thinking and problem solving when I'm running by myself. So definitely, you know, you don't always have to make it about a group training, but that's something that I think it's a great way, appreciate and meet new people in a new city and then take care of yourself. I think don't ignore the things that bother you get good shoes. I mean, my number one, when people are injured, come to me, they often come to me almost too late where it's, so their pain is so bad and their Shannon or their knee, Speaker 1 (27:45): Then they're thinking I should get a coach. Like that's the impetus for them to get a coach. Speaker 2 (27:49): So you're like, you know, take care of yourself. And to be honest, this might be a good segue for what we're talking about, because my first line of defense is go see a massage therapist because massage throughout my running career is like, you know, you go to a doctor and they say, it hurts when I run, they're going to say, don't, don't run. It's like my mom said back in the day, mama hurts when I do this. Okay, don't do that. That's kind of, that's often, but some doctors will say like, Oh, that's bothering. You just don't do it. Well, we want to do it. We want to be active. We want to keep doing it. So taking care of yourself is really important. And there's a lot of little things like massage and stretching, eating, right. And all of these things that are small things that really add up to bigger gains. And it's, it's fun to, to improve at it. You know, I mean, I'm never going to run a PR again because I ran faster than my youth, but I have, I have to make up goals now, like fastest mile as a dad. You know, whatever. So if these are all things that I have to kind of reinvent to kind of give me the motivation to get out there, but the self hair, the self-care piece is super important and often neglected. Speaker 1 (28:52): Yeah. And that self care involves sleep, recovery, nutrition. I think the massage, and like I said earlier, we're both on the Waterpik water for wellness council. And one of the, a couple of things that they're, and again, power pulse, therapeutic strength, massage, shower, head a couple of things that they have actually been shown that clinically shown to provide, like to help soothe muscle tension, to increase flexibility and to improve restful sleep. So the way I look at it as a PT, and I'm sure you may say the same as a run coach. Like we like to keep the risk continuum a little bit more on the reward side and a little less on the risk. Right. So if you can recommend things for people that have less risk and more reward, great. And if you can recommend things to people that are economical. Great. And I think that that's where that the power pulse massage shower kind of comes in along with, like you said, seeing massage therapists one of the things that I'm so glad that you mentioned is about the community oriented part of running. Cause I think a lot of people think that if you're running, you're just running on your own. Speaker 2 (30:21): Right. And then that's been the biggest challenge for me. It's just my own running is I've actually, I've been running 60. I usually run five or six days a week and it's done a lot of mileage cause it's, you know, being a dad and, you know, jogging stroller and whatnot. But I was running the same amount of times per week, but I was running and say 30 miles a week. And then I was running like 20 and I'm like, how am I running less? You know, I have more time to one degree. And I wasn't like, I would actually often rely on, especially for longer runs is to go to prospect park, which is very well trafficked with runners. And I know a lot of runners, so I, I usually run into people. I know. And then we go, we can, we run a mile or two or add on, and I didn't have that because everyone was running alone or, and so I was like, Oh, I'm not getting that extra motivation or, Hey, Hey, Karen run into Karen and we do an extra three miles because we're talking way and catching up. Speaker 2 (31:07): And so that's something that the community piece to that my mileage is that definitely I mean, I since realized that and, and try to pay attention to doing a little bit more, but I'm like, how am I running last? I'm still running six days a week. And that was the number one thing that I was different was I didn't have the buddies and I was running by myself all the time and that you weren't casually running into people and adding on. So but yeah, I think, and everyone says, you can run with people. It's just doing it safely. Yeah. Certain protocols. So it's just, and some of that was new in the beginning. And so, but there's definitely been a second kind of volt. Second, third, fourth, depending on who you talked to like many running boom, because gyms were closed and other things, so you have less, you know, nature get outside, walk run. So I guess a lot of more questions from new runners, especially neighbors because they're out there running and they knew, Oh, this guy runs on the block all the time and he must know something and all the questions that we went over already getting those. So it's you know, as far as silver linings to some of this stuff, that's going on. Speaker 1 (32:08): And now before we finish, I have one last question for you. And it's when I ask all of my guests. So knowing where you are now in your life and in your career, what advice would you give to your younger self? So maybe that 20 year old at the Olympic trials in 1996, what advice would you give to that kid? Speaker 2 (32:30): Yeah, well, I mean, back then running, talk about love. Hey, like it was so nerve wracking once I got the certain levels. And even that I ran the 800 meters, which is arguably one of the toughest events in track and field, they say the 400 hurdles experts today, the 400 hurdles and the 800 meters are the toughest. I think the 10,000 meters on the track is twenty-five laps. That that's hard puzzle to me because the hard I can't do it to cath on and heptathlon is all these different things. I think those are harder, but as far as the body and the body makeup that that event is kind of in between speed and endurance. And so but it, it just was so nerve wracking at the, at, when I got to that age, in that level, that running was and if I was running well and healthy, the world is great, but there was times where running was not so fun and I was sick or I was injured. Speaker 2 (33:21): And so I guess I would probably say, you know, it's tough to say, don't take yourself too seriously because I was training for the Olympics and it's really scary, really focused. But and actually, I, I, once I stopped competing, I actually took on a couple of years off where I don't even know how much I was running maybe once a week. And I definitely got out of the Cape. And I think when I was like maybe mid to early thirties, I got reengaged that there was a local team that needed some people to run for. And I kind of said, all right, I'll help out. And then I was kind of needed again, it felt somewhat relevant, but then the community of that as well, the peer pressure in a positive way got me into the fold. And I actually got, was able to get pretty fit again in my mid thirties. Speaker 2 (33:58): But it was one of those things where I did it to be really good. And then once that was no longer the goal, it was like, why do it, and sort of, it's a little bit of a gap there that, you know, probably mentally and physically, it was good to have because, you know, I get healthy and kind of cleared my head a little bit, but I wish I didn't take that long of a gap because there was only one reason to do it was to get fast, to win races, to make limpic teams. And as we all know now, and I know now is there's many reasons to run released best, you know, be competitive with yourself, you know, have be part of a community. See nature. Even though I started one of these things recently where I took a bunch of runners to to Ireland and I called it a run location and we spent four days and you actually can explore a lot of people. Speaker 2 (34:40): I coach where they're training for the marathon, we'll say, Oh, I can't, I can't run these two weeks. I'm going to be on vacation. I'm like, well, tell me more about this vacation. And it turns out that, like I had someone run on a cruise ship once and they actually sent me their GP. I'm like, there's probably a track on the, on the cruise trip. It's probably not that exciting, but don't say you have to take two weeks off. I would kind of like a little tough love there. And someone, I think of some woman sent me, she was going across the Atlantic to like Norway and her GPS was over the water, three 30 pace per mile. And it said she ran like 50 miles would showing around like 10. Oh. Because she was more like, not trying to get out of running. She was just like, Oh, I have to, I'm on vacation. Speaker 2 (35:19): I can't run. And I was like, you can make it a part of your everyday, regardless of where you go and you often can see more on foot then. So it's one of these things that would just I don't know, you can make it part of your life or it's not such this arduous thing and horrible thing. It, most of the time it could be pretty pleasant and fun. And I mean, I don't, I don't knock myself too much for being so serious about it, but I wish I didn't. I let myself off the hook a little bit and when I was younger and enjoyed it more and didn't take it so seriously all the time, even though there's reasons for that. Speaker 1 (35:50): Yeah. Oh, I think that's great. I think that's great advice to your younger self and John, where can people find you? What's your website? Where are you on social media? How can they get in touch? If they have questions they want to work with you, they want to learn more about Speaker 2 (36:02): The programs you have. Yeah. My, of a website is run camp and that's R U N K a M P. And I'm spelling incorrectly because my last name is Hunter camp with a K. Yeah. So nice play on words. Yeah. So run camp, you know, and you know, it's all things running, whether a training for a race or just getting fit or travel in this case, once we can travel again. And then my Facebook and Instagram is just John Hunter camp. My name's spelled so you can find me that way. And then email me a john@runcamp.com. If you have any questions, you, you know, you want to get ahold of me for any reason, I'd be happy to chat and help you through your training journey as, as you see fit. And as, as, as you see necessary. Speaker 1 (36:41): Perfect. And of course we will have the links to everything at the podcast and the show notes for this episode at podcast at healthy, wealthy, smart.com. So, John, thanks so much for giving us a little bit of your time today. I really appreciate it. Speaker 2 (36:57): Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to join. You're happy to do this again and stay in touch even though we're so close so far. Speaker 1 (37:03): I know, I know just over the Brooklyn bridge but thanks so much for coming on and everyone else. Thanks so much for tuning in, have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.  

In this episode, Dr. Steffan Griffin talks about his research into 'Rugby Union, and Health and Wellbeing.' Dr. Steffan Griffin is a junior doctor based in London, pursuing a career in Sport and Exercise Medicine. He is a Sports Medicine Training Fellow at the Rugby Football Union, deputy editor at the BJSM, and a part-time Ph.D. student at the University of Edinburgh, where he is researching the topic of 'rugby union, and health and wellbeing'. Steffan also works clinically with a range of elite sports teams including Chelsea Football Club, and London Irish Rugby Football Club. Today, we learn about the different forms of rugby, and Steffan elaborates on the findings of his research regarding the health and wellbeing benefits associated with playing rugby. What does the review mean to those who are interested in gaining the health benefits from rugby? How does this review affect policymakers? What does the review mean for researchers? Steffan tells us about the common misconceptions surrounding rugby, and how his research aims to change that, and he gives his younger self some advice, all on today's episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast. Key Takeaways  "There are 10 million people playing the game rugby, and they don't play this blind to the fact that there are risks associated with " The different forms of rugby: Contact Rugby: It's the "collision game" that you typically see when tuning in on a Saturday afternoon. Touch Rugby: It's a glorified version of "tag" with a ball. Tag Rugby: Players wear a belt with Velcro strips, and a tackle is when players manage to grab one of those Velcro tags. Wheelchair Rugby: Nicknamed "Murderball". "Our research found that all forms of rugby can provide health-enhancing moderate- to-vigorous intensity physical " "Symptoms of common mental disorders were higher in professional players compared to general " "People are well aware; rugby compared to other sports has a higher injury "   "What the review isn't doing is saying that everybody in the world should play rugby… It provides an objective piece of work that can help people make a decision based on evidence and not on emotion and " "We need to try and move away from just looking at studies where all the participants are white middle class " "One of the potential conclusions that a reader could get from this study is that non- contact rugby is the holy grail of rugby, but actually there aren't any level 1 studies looking at the injury risk of " More About Dr. Griffin: Dr Steffan Griffin is a junior doctor based in London, pursuing a career in Sport and Exercise Medicine. He is a Sports Medicine Training Fellow at the Rugby Football Union, deputy editor at the BJSM, and also a part-time PhD student at the University of Edinburgh, where he is researching the topic of 'rugby union, and health and wellbeing'.  Steffan also works clinically with a range of elite sports teams including Chelsea Football Club, and London Irish Rugby Football Club.  Suggested Keywords  Rugby, Health, Wellbeing, Injury, Research, Review, Benefits, Risks, Sport, Policies, Union, Activity, To learn more, follow Dr. Griffin at:  Website:          Rugby, Health and Wellbeing Twitter:          @SteffanGriffin Review:           https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2020/11/23/bjsports-2020-102085 Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart:  Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy- smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:                                    https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:               https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927 Read the Transcript here: Speaker 1 (00:00): Hey, Steffan, welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to have you on Speaker 2 (00:04): Thank you very much for the invitation, Karen. So it's a real privilege to have been asked to come on and to have a good chat with you. Speaker 1 (00:11): Yes. And for those of you who may think to yourself, God, this voice sounds familiar it's because Stephan is the host of many, many podcasts for BJSM. So if you have the chance definitely, and you haven't listened to BJSM podcast, definitely go over and listen to all of them because they're all really wonderful. So but this is your first time on the other side, which I find hard to believe Speaker 2 (00:36): It is. Yeah, absolutely. As you said, it's something I've been doing for a few years for the journal now and yeah, it's the, it's very strange to be on the other side of the podcast. So I'm a different set of nerves. I'm really looking forward to it. Speaker 1 (00:49): Great. Well, thank you so much. And today we're going to talk about a recent review that was published in the British journal of sports medicine, the relationship between rugby union and health and wellbeing, which was a scoping review with you and also our good friend Nim but amongst other wonderful authors, but let's start out with the basic why behind this review. Speaker 2 (01:19): Yeah, sure. And I think that the main, why about this is that it was just, it's just a completely unexplored area. So I'm sure that, you know, for people in America, maybe their perception of room B probably comes from our friends at absurd with Ross, where I think he comes out pretty battered and bruised. And actually that's actually not too dissimilar to a lot of the perceptions in the, in the kind of the health and the sports science, sports medicine research landscape. We know about rugby's relationships with injuries and concussions. They're highly publicized and probably rugby is a victim of its own success in that because it's leading on player welfare and it's, you know, really pushing the boundaries in terms of trying to make it as safe a game as possible. Everyone's very aware of of the injury injurious nature of forgetting. Speaker 2 (02:12): But what I think for me personally, I've, I'm, I'm Welsh by birth. So I brought up on rugby and, you know, there are 10 million people playing the game of rugby and they don't play this blind to the fact that there are risks associated with it. So we know people know there are benefits to it, but looking at the actual scientific literature, there's nothing really providing a big picture overview of some of that, the health and wellbeing benefits associated with the sport. And really as we know, to make an informed decision about anything in life, be that sport, be that buying a car, for instance, people need to know the, the data surrounding the risks and the benefits, and, you know, we had a lot of the former so what we, what this really has been as aimed to do is provide, you know, some, some evidence not just emotion around some of the benefits associated with the sport. So really is a piece that hopefully prides balance to that, to the wider picture now. Speaker 1 (03:17): And what did, what did the review find? So what were those benefits to health and wellbeing? Speaker 2 (03:23): Yeah, sure. And before we jumped on the call, we kind of discussed the different types of members. So I'll probably just spend a tiny bit of time just covering and providing a tiny bit of context. So what we wanted to do is rugby, as we've mentioned, the friends app. So there is the contact form of rugby union, which is, you know, this collision gamers, if you're tuning in on a Saturday afternoon, typically here, especially in well-established rugby countries like England, like New Zealand, and it is growing in the U S and over in Canada as well, you know, that's the contact forms of the game, and there are other forms of rugby. So there's, non-contact rugby such as touch rugby, which is basically a glorified version of, of the game tag with a ball involved. And there's also something called tag rugby, which generally people wear a belt with the Velcro strips and tackle is where you manage to grab one of those Velcro type tags off. Speaker 2 (04:17): The other form of rugby then that we looked at was wheelchair rugby, which is I think given the lovely nickname of Murderball. But actually we want to, so you may have some of the listeners may have heard admirable being referenced and there are some wonderful documentaries on Netflix, you know, that really provide a good insight into the game. So basically by breaking it down to the type of rugby, we then wanted to break it down further. So people who read the review could really look to see exactly where the benefits lay. So if we kind of look at it from and I'll split it into, into some themes that some listeners might be might be familiar with. So as we know a big, I mean the world health organization, physical activity guidelines came out yesterday. So if we look at physical activity, so we know this is a huge global health priority at the moment, and our research found that all forms of rugby be that contact be that non-contact and wheelchair rugby can provide health enhancing, moderate to vigorous intensity physical activity, which, which really wasn't well known before. Speaker 2 (05:27): And then now it puts, it allows people like governing bodies and policy makers to align the sport of rugby with some of those global health priorities. As, as we all know, as practitioners, as practitioners, that muscle strengthening balance coordination and huge parts of these physical activity guidelines. And although we didn't find any studies that really look, look at that, per se, we found that lots of national population surveys, which are really based on expert consensus, consider rugby and all sports such as rugby to provide some of these benefits as well. So again, that was a kind of a landmark finding of this study in terms of the, we then looked at different kinds of health benefits. So we, first of all, wanted to look at physical health and we stratified by that by different domains. So for instance, cardiovascular health, respiratory health, musculoskeletal health, probably the best way to summarize this is non-contact rugby and wheelchair rugby have very supportive research kind of around that, you know, that rugby can provide quite significant physical health benefits into the contact drug B, which is kind of the traditional form of the game. Speaker 2 (06:43): There's a real mix there, lots of mixed studies and also just a lot of conflicting findings as well. Although a lot of the studies that look at that, you know, look to control for things like age you know, some of the demographic variables did show some supportive data that is conflicted by some other studies. And you know, what we couldn't do as part of this scoping review was really delve into the pros and cons of each of those individual studies. So in terms of, in terms of contact rugby, slightly more mixed findings in terms of physical health mental health and kind of wellbeing. So psychosocial measures such as quality of life and things, again, non-contact rugby or wheelchair rugby, rugby can provide a real wide raft of of mental health and wellbeing benefits. And most of the research in the contact game was, was, was focused on professional athletes and that fans that have symptoms of common mental disorders were higher and in professional players compared to general population though that is, you know, similar actually to professional athletes in other sports, such as football and things. Speaker 2 (07:58): And then the last thing is, as we've discussed right at the very top was the injuries associated with the game because we were very aware of is that it wouldn't be all well and good. That's just providing the health benefits, but also, you know, we didn't, we, although we didn't have the capacity to look at every single injury study to do with rugby relate to all the systematic reviews and Metro analyses around this. And as people are very, Oh, well aware, rugby compared to other sports has the higher injury profile and especially around concussion and things. So, so yeah, so sorry, that answer probably a bit tiny bit longer, but just to kind of try and break it down a little bit you know, in terms of the different types of rugby and then the various kind of health domains. Speaker 1 (08:38): Yeah. No, that was great. So let's break it down even further now. So let's say I am a player, or I'm a parent of a child who we want them to have these benefits of physical activity. And if rugby is something that maybe we're looking at to accomplish that what does this review mean to that parent or to that player? Speaker 2 (09:08): Yeah, sure. So, I mean, six months ago, if you, I mean, if I was a, if I was a, if I was a parent, you know, I was thinking about, you know, do I want my kids to play rugby, then I probably would have done, you know, Google search health and wellbeing rugby. And the vast majority would have been around purely to do with, you know, concussion injuries and not letting my kids anywhere near this kind of sport. Although, you know, rugby unions and, and people know there are loads of testimonials. As I said, at the top of the podcast, there are 10 million people playing rugby. They ha there has to be a benefit. It's just probably the scientists a bit slow to catch up. People can, kids players can reach all their physical activity guidelines and tick that box by playing any form of rugby. Speaker 2 (09:51): And then it's about individual perception of risks and benefit as to what kinds of rugby they want to play. So for instance, you might have, I might have, I might have a child for me. I don't know that, you know, the research says that participants in contact rugby, they say they, they there's Reese qualitative research really supporting the fact that it could provide a lot of psychosocial benefits that instills lots of confidence in people that builds teamwork. And people will say that they feel stronger by doing it and that's across across women, across youth players, across adult players. But also at the same time, you know, I think what there isn't doing is saying that everybody in the world should play rugby. It's providing people with the, with kind of a, some objective data so that, you know, someone else might come along and say, okay, we want our kids to be getting know taking all the physical activity boxes. Speaker 2 (10:43): Cause we know that it reduces the incidence of diabetes, heart disease. We know it provides X amount of benefits, but for me, the injurious side of it means that I don't want my kids or I don't want to expose myself to that risk. So what I'm going to do is look for a non-contact form. And I'll, I'll try and get and get, you know, reap the benefits by, by going down that route. So yeah, we hope that it provides an objective piece of work that can just help people make a decision based on, on evidence and not just pure kind of emotion and headlines, Speaker 1 (11:19): How novel, especially in this day and age now let's go, let's move on to what does this mean for the researcher? Speaker 2 (11:29): Yeah, she also, I mean, we, we found offset strategy. We found six Oh six and a half thousand studies of which we included 200 studies. And, you know, as, as I can, as I kind of said, like having broken it down into different forms of rugby in different healthcare domains there are some huge research gaps. So for the research right there, you know, we've identified we've identified a lot of research gaps that really, you know, there are some real low hanging fruit there that could really help them inform, help inform decisions further and provide more evidence in these areas. So for instance, I think there's a real pressing need to, first of all, look at populations outside of just the white, 70 kg male playing player. So we know that I think women's rugby had a growth from 2018 to 19. Speaker 2 (12:24): Excuse me, if the, if the exact percentage is off, I think it was that 28% increase in participation and it's growing in, in areas such as Asia, especially. And, you know, we, we, we need to try and move away from just looking at looking at participants and looking at studies that look at the benefits or look at, you know, studies where all the participants are, as I said, kind of white middle-class males, that's one big thing. And looking then at, you know, we do need to do more research. We need to, we need to try and quantify how rugby integrates with the physical activity guidelines even further. We need to be looking at more you know, how rugby interacts with various health and wellbeing outcomes you know, across more diverse populations, as I said. But also then I think, you know, I think one of the potential conclusions that really could get from this study is that non-contact rugby is, you know, the Holy grail now with rugby, but actually no, there aren't any kind of level one studies looking at the injury risk of that. So, you know, there are a ton of research areas that we've identified that that are going to be really important moving forward to allow people to make fully informed decisions. Speaker 1 (13:39): Excellent. And then moving on, how does this review then affect policymakers? You touched on it a little bit earlier and also international federations. Speaker 2 (13:53): Yeah, sure. So again, I've been very fortunate to have to work NAFA 18 months with the rugby football union, which is the essential England's national governing body for rugby. And two of the medical services director and the head of medical research that Simon Kemp and Keith Stokes to, to they for part of the scientific committee of the, of the PhD and their co-authors of the study. So we what's been great at doing this research and doing this PhD is that we're trying to answer questions that we know are relevant to governing bodies and to policy makers. So for governing bodies, for instance, you know, we're now able to provide the English from BMC, the RFU the likes of world rugby. Who've been really receptive to this kind of research with again, objective health objective scientific data that allows them to align the game with some of the current global health priorities, you know, be that physical activity or be that, you know, that we know physical activity levels are down because of COVID and because of lockdowns and you're could the sports such as rugby, such as football, tennis play a role in actually getting, you know, increasing health globally and then says as a policy makers, again, it's it provides because, you know, we know that sports such as rope in your needs, look at football or soccer. Speaker 2 (15:12): Now, you know, there's such a huge debater on head injuries and things, and these are, there's a sense that sensationalized to a certain degree, but they're also brought up in pretty in high places, you know, and government level. And, you know, what I'm hoping that this kind of research does is it provides, you know, a big picture for them to see and to look at it and say, well, actually, you know, we can promote rugby before. You know, whether it be that to kids, we can, you know, we need to make sure that rugby is a it's the welcoming environment for all types of all types of people and, you know, across society, because we know that it could provide people with lots of benefits and yes, we know that it might be more injurious relative, but, you know, as long as we put pressure on rugby to keep on making it as safe as possible, and that's where it's great, you know, that we're dropping all these governing bodies have player welfare as they're kind of strap by the number one priority, but it just provides a, you know, a broad picture that people government bodies and policy makers, like you said, can start to actually, you know, start promote things and to provide you filter that down to individuals and groups. Speaker 1 (16:22): Yeah. I think that's wonderful. And I love the thing that I really liked about this review. And we sort of spoke about it before we went on the air is I love that you included wheelchair rugby. I did not know that was murder ball, but now that I, now I'm like, Oh, okay. Yes, I get that. But I thought that was really important to include that because there are a lot of people in, across all countries who are wheelchair bound or who maybe cannot participate fully in, you know non-contact or contact rugby. And to include this, I thought was, was really, really great. And it, even in the wheelchair, rugby still had all of these physical, it's still taking the physical activity boxes, right. And still increasing muscle mass and improving cardiovascular and mental health and that feeling of a team. And so I thought that was really great. And to me, the non-contact rugby seems like a much much more forgiving game for people who are like, I would never do rugby. Cause I would like literally be in, you know, laid out for days or something like that because it looks so intimidating. Speaker 2 (17:38): Yeah, absolutely. And actually that's a lot of what you just mentioned, actually, it's pretty much going to be our next steps in terms of what we, what we do, because what we don't want to do is we don't want to set up in awards in like a research ivory tower and say, this is our research now go forth and do what you want to there. We really now want to see how people perceive our research. And I think rugby and rugby also wants to know what, so there's no point us, one of the, you know, one of the main points of the resets being, you know, playing rugby, which is your contact, rugby is good for you. Therefore everybody should do it because we need, what isn't known at the moment is how different population groups might perceive those risks. So for instance, if, for instance, you know, if someone's never played the game before, you know, is the fact that there are only really contact versions of the game available locally, is that a huge barrier to them then getting involved? Speaker 2 (18:36): So, so I think, yeah, you've touched nicely upon, you know, some of the real practical key issues there. And that's really what we want to be going into next is kind of being able to now piece together and also pretty much providing a toolkit to not just participants, but to governing bodies that says, you know, if you want more people involved, this is what matters at the, at the coalface and this is what you need to be providing. So no, you're, yeah, you're completely right. Because, you know, look watching, you know, watching 20 stone, you know, 250 pound blokes run into each other on a Saturday sometimes quite hard to think, how am I going to get from the sofa to that? Yeah. Speaker 1 (19:13): You can't even, you can't even picture it. You can't even imagine. Imagine it because it looks so scary. You know, and even as let's say, as a woman, if I were interested in playing, I wouldn't even know where to start. Right. So this research eVic, and I'm sure there's places I'm in New York city, there's gotta be rugby clubs and things like that, but I wouldn't even know where to start. And so I feel like this might spark some curiosity among people to say, Hey, listen, I can't do the contact. I just can't do it nor do I want to do it, but Oh, I didn't even realize there was a non-contact option. Or if you're wheelchair bound, gosh, I didn't even realize that this is something that I can do so great parts of the research. Speaker 2 (19:59): Oh, thank you. Yeah. and yeah. And just to kinda touch on you at the wheelchair, every point. Yeah. We were, we wanted to make this as big picture, as inclusive as possible. And that was one of the real, almost surprising things that the, that the evidence of, you know, of benefits associated with wheelchair rugby were so significant and so wide ranging. It was yeah. A really pleasant surprise. And the population group that isn't as well studied, you know, as we know. Speaker 1 (20:25): Excellent. All right. So before we start to wrap things up here, what do you want the listeners to take away from this discussion and also from this, from this research article, from this broad scoping research? Speaker 2 (20:38): Yeah, sure. I mean, I think some of it is, is probably a bit broad in that, you know, trying to, you know, we, so, so for when, so for instance, in my role with in revenue, we're looking at how to reduce concussion. We're looking at exactly, you know, nailing down what the incidence is kind of across various playing groups. You know, and that is the kind of thing that generates headlines in terms of you know, cause it, well, it's actually, as soon as something's published, it's now concussion rates up down the same for X consecutive year. That it's, it's, it's a, it's a common thing. Whereas hopefully what this does, it just provides the people. If people are aware that this now exists and there's this research going on, that they can touch base with either the paper with the website kind of with with any of our kinds of sites, social media platforms as well. Speaker 2 (21:32): I can just see what that, you know, if I do know someone, if I know a parent's a play, who's looking into it, this is actually, you know, this is where I'd go to make to be able to make a fully informed decision. So yeah, we're not, you know, the, the point of the research wasn't to show that rugby, you know, is this all singing, all dancing, wonderful sport you know, we're, it's always sunshine and rainbows just by the fact that for some people, it, it really is. But you know, it's just, it's just something that can provide, you know, as you, as you said, what sometimes feels like a bit of a novelty at the moment, just an objective overview, so people can make fully informed decisions. Speaker 1 (22:11): Excellent. And before we end, I'm going to ask you the question I ask everyone, sorry, I didn't bring this up to you earlier, but surprise now. So knowing where you are now in your life and in your career, what advice would you give to your younger self? Speaker 2 (22:27): I think just, just keep going, just keep doing what you're doing head down and hopefully everything so far, it all ends up working out. Yeah, just work hard and keep going. Speaker 1 (22:40): Excellent. Excellent advice. And now where can people find you social media websites, et cetera? Speaker 2 (22:49): Yeah, sure. So I'm probably I'm most active, especially from a kind of a professional research point of view on Twitter. So is that Stefan Griffin with Welsh spelling? So it's too, otherwise I'm not would kill me. Yeah. And then there's a website www.rugby, health and wellbeing dot com and, and yeah, and, and as, as you, as you've mentioned at the start, we publish the scope review and the question was sports medicine. So it's very easy to find to find the scrap from view on there as well. So, yeah. And if anyone has any questions and you, you know, once access to the PDF or anything, so unfortunately it is behind a paywall, then I'm obviously more than happy to provide all of that. Speaker 1 (23:30): Awesome. And we will have all of this information at podcast dot healthy, wealthy, smart.com under the show notes. Thank you so much stuff for coming on. This was great. Lovely to catch up, lovely to see you and congratulations on a great article. Speaker 2 (23:45): Thank you very much, Karen. It's lovely to know to chat to you and that's here. Everything's going well. Speaker 1 (23:49): And everyone, thanks so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.

In this episode, Founder of Working Simply, Inc., Carson Tate, talks about making any job your dream job. Carson has a BA in Psychology from Washington and Lee University. She also holds a Master's in Organization Development and received her Coaching Certificate at the McColl School of Business at Queens University. She has 15 years of experience working with organizations across the globe, helping them each to improve employee engagement, productivity, and efficacy. Carson is the best-selling author of "Own it. Love it. Make it Work", a sought after public speaker, as well as a staunch advocate for fair and flexible workplace practices. Her Productivity Style Assessment featured in the 2017 Guide to Being More Productive by Harvard Business Review. Today, we learn about the 5 areas that we need to explore in order to make our current job the best job, and Carson gives us 3 ways to identify our strengths. She tells us about her Abilities Opportunity Map, and provides the tools to avoid the "inevitable burnout". Carson gives us the template we need to say "no", we hear about the 15-Minute List and the importance of "protecting your 90", and she gives some advice to her younger self, all on today's episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways  "Any job can be your dream job because you define the dream." You're in a job – how do you make it the best job? Carson has identified 5 areas that we need to explore: Recognition and reward, Strengths, Relationships, Recognition and Reward – What kind of recognition and reward do you need? "I'm talking about praise and acknowledgement." We're all human beings, and we really need to be seen for our work. Strengths – What are those things that you do almost at near perfection? "You can't not do them. Even on your day off you might try to do them… The reason they're so important is because this is what you bring to the relationship with your employer." Relationships – Having real, authentic relationships at work is essential, not only for performance, but to be happy, fulfilled, and engaged. Development – This is about owning your own professional development. Meaning, Purpose, and Joy – Meaning is not defined by what happens to you; it's your interpretation of the events in your life. "Every job has significance. Every job is meaningful. It's up to you to figure out what that meaning is." There are 3 ways to find and identify our strengths: Reflection, Performance Reviews, and Highlighting Successful Tasks.   "The relationship with your employer is a relationship, and any relationship is based on social exchange theory – both parties bring to the relationship and both parties receive. In a relationship that's healthy, both parties work towards mutually-beneficial goals." "When we are working from our strengths, the work is easier, there's less effort but greater impact, more joy, and more flow." "Even at the end of the darkest week, you can pull back and find a source of hope for the meaning." "Every time you say no to something, you're saying yes to something else." "Clarity creates opportunity. Doing the work to identify what your dream job looks like opens up infinite possibilities for you in your current job and in future jobs." "In play, that's where you're going to find those brilliant insights and connections, and the juice to not be burnt out. The one reason we get burnt out is we don't play; we just work all the time."    More about Carson  Carson Tate believes that work can be the full expression of who we are – the vehicle that takes us to a place where we reach the full potential of our greatness. As a visionary in the field of personal productivity and organizational excellence, Carson uses practical advice and empathetic training to guide and support her clients, helping them shine more brightly than they ever imagined possible.  A best-selling author, teacher and coach, for 15 years Carson has worked with organizations of all sizes around the world to help them improve the engagement of their employees, the productivity of their workforces, and the efficacy of their leadership. It is her mission to change how and why we work so that we can each make a greater impact on our own lives, on our communities, and on the world at large.  Central to Carson's vision is her belief that when we do work that matters to us, it leads to greater success and wealth. It becomes the foundation of a harmonious life where we have the time, space, mental clarity, physical well being, and emotional energy to take care of ourselves and others.  Carson Tate is also the founder of Working Simply, Inc. where she equips organizations with tools, strategies, information and insights that inspire employees and leaders to use their gifts and talents to build their legacies.  Carson's signature courses include: Mobilize Your Inbox: How email can work for you. Work Well With Others: Find joy in teamwork.  Work Smarter, Not Harder: Get up close & personal with work. The WORKshop: How To Work Simply and Live Fully. Carson Tate Masterclass: Own it. Love it. Make it Work.  A prolific public speaker, Carson teaches audiences how to identify what success looks like from a personal and professional vantage point; how to move beyond the way we're working today, into a new world of productivity and accomplishment; and how to "own it, love it, make it work" by breathing life and inspiration into work.  Carson is a staunch advocate and champion for fair and flexible workplace practices that create healthy, nurturing environments for workers everywhere. Her goal is to shift the focus from output to impact – our value as workers is meant to be measured by our contribution.   There's nothing Carson loves more than connecting with people. In her uplifting and empowering courses, one-on-one coaching, speeches and workshops, Carson shares surprising ideas and insights that clients and audiences can immediately apply to create fulfilling lives that align with their values and priorities. She inspires people to craft a future for themselves in which their work plays a joyful role. Above all, Carson believes that work is where your mission meets your spirit.   Book Mention Own It. Love It. Make It Work: How to Make Any Job Your Dream Job, by Carson Tate Suggested Keywords  Productivity, Job, Work, Career, Burnout, Strengths, Relationships, Meaning, Opportunity, Possibility, Play, Recognition, Reward, Purpose, Reflection, To learn more, follow Carson at:  Website: https://carsontate.com https://www.workingsimply.com Facebook: @thecarsontate Instagram:  @thecarsontate Twitter:   @thecarsontate LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/carsontate YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/c/CarsonTate   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website: https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:            https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy- smart/id532717264 Spotify:                       https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:                                    https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the Transcript Here: Speaker 1 (00:00): Hi, Carson, welcome to the podcast. I am happy to have you on Karen. Speaker 2 (00:04): I'm so glad to be with you. Thanks for the invitation. Speaker 1 (00:06): Absolutely. And now, today, what I really love to talk about is how to make any job, your dream job. So this is the title of your, well, the subtitle I should say of your book own it, love it, make it work, how to make any job, your dream job. So let's talk about how to do that because there are a lot of people now working in areas or positions or working in ways that maybe they didn't think they would ever be working because of the COVID pandemic. Right. So let's talk about making your job, your dream job. So how do we go about doing that? It's just an easy question. Speaker 2 (00:47): Easy question. I love the easy questions upfront, right? Yeah. Great. Well, first of all, let's go ahead and make sure folks aren't going to give me the eye roll forever. So here's, here's the qualifying statement. So any job can be your dream job because you define the dream. So to create your dream job means that you're going to identify what that is for you and not believe there's a one size fits all or a must or should, but it's what do you need to be engaged and fulfilled in your current job? Because the other reality for most of us is that we can't just quit and go be a lavender farmer. And the South of France that sounds blissful or entrepreneurship might not be the right option for all of us. So we're in a job and I don't want you to stay in suffer. Speaker 2 (01:46): So how do we make it the best job? So there are five areas that I found in my research and work with clients that we need to explore for ourselves. The first is recognition and reward. So what type of recognition and rewards do you need? So I'm talking about praise and acknowledgement because we're all human beings and we really need to be seen for our work. But Karen, you might be the kind of person that just wants the email, great job, Karen, that goes out to the whole team and you're like, Oh God, I feel good. I might be the person that wants yeah. The boss to stand up in front of the whole group, have me there and this great grand presentation of my excellence, but we're all different. And so it's knowing what I need is the first step. So admitting that you have recognition needs and knowing what those are. Speaker 2 (02:38): And then the second one is strengths. And so you're in health care and a bit, a lot of your listeners are as well, physical therapists. So you went into your profession because you had an interest in probably an aptitude in science and working with people. The second step is to really identify and own your strengths. What are those things that you do almost at near perfection? You were really good at you. Can't not do them. So even on your day off, you might try to do them. And as something you want to develop and grow, so you might read about it. You might take courses. You're the one that has the magazine that you want to look at. Those are your strengths. And the reason they're so important is because this is what you bring to the relationship with your employer. Your strengths are what enables your employer to serve their patients, their customers, and earn revenue. Speaker 2 (03:37): And so knowing what the strengths are, a column, your relationship currency with your employer, they're the gold. And when you work from your strengths, your performance goes up, you're more in the flow and you're just generally more happy and fulfilled. So we want to spend more time working from your strengths. But the only way to do that with our employer is to demonstrate how they benefit your employer. So you have to know what they are, and then you okay to help you achieve your goal company. When I do more of this type work, we generate more revenue. We have more customers you're satisfied. So Speaker 1 (04:13): When we're talking about identifying your strengths, you don't only want to just identify them for yourself. You want to share them with your friends Speaker 2 (04:22): Employer. Yes, exactly. And in not sharing with your employer, Karen, it's being very direct and intentional with your employer around how those strengths support the company's goals. So when I do this work, we are faster. We are better with clients. We earn more money because what you want, the goal here is to do more of them. You want to be able to make an ask, Hey manager, I have a couple of tasks that we really are not driving revenue. And aren't really serving the company that I can see when to let go of those and do more of this. Speaker 1 (05:02): Yeah. That makes sense. And if you're working from your strengths, you would probably enjoy it a little bit more, cause you'll see more success. Speaker 2 (05:09): Absolutely. And I am, I come from the school of positive psychology. So I take a strengths-based approach, which means we're going to work on your strengths because I can get a 10 X lift, 10 X, times performance out of a strengths-based approach versus working on your blind spots or your, your growth areas. It doesn't mean we ignore them, but I'm not going to spend a lot of time and energy on those because the return on that time investment for the output and the impact isn't as great. Got it. Speaker 1 (05:41): How can, how do we go? How do you recommend people go about finding their strengths? Speaker 2 (05:46): Yes. So there are three ways you can do a reflection, big fan as a coach of journaling and reflection. So you reflect, what was your best day at work? What do your friends, your colleagues, praise you or acknowledge in your work day? Where do people ask you for help or advice or support? Great place to start. Then if you have any type of performance reviews or three 60 reviews, always a great place to go, to start to mind for those core strength themes. But my all-time favorite way to do it is to look at your task list in your calendar list and go through with a marker and highlight those tasks, those meetings, those calls, the podcast where you were on fire. I loved it. It was really good, strong outcome. And then you start to identify some of your core strengths that way. Speaker 1 (06:42): Let's say you are not an employee, but you're an entrepreneur. So do you give yourself performance reviews? Speaker 2 (06:54): Really? I've never been asked that question. I would say your performance reviews come from your clients. It would be, you know, that email that you get, or maybe you do a survey with your clients. You ask your clients for feedback. That would be your performance review. Got it, got it. And if you're an entrepreneur, that's where the calendar and task list analysis is super helpful for them. Because if you're not working in that formal structure of the yearly performance review, and as an entrepreneur, initially you have to do it all. And ultimately if I'm coaching you, I want you really working from your strengths and we want to start to figure out how do we automate or outsource those other items. Speaker 1 (07:39): Okay. All right. That makes sense. All right. So we've got recognition and reward, which I love and, you know, quick story on that, a friend of mine works for a publisher and she said so do you know what happened the other day? She said, I got this package in the mail and it was from the company. And it was just like some gourmet teas and a mug. And it, and it was a card that says, you know, so-and-so, you're just doing a great job and we appreciate all the work. And she was like, you know, some people need big bonuses. Some people she's like, this is what I needed. So she sort of recognized like my reward is, is just someone identifying, I'm doing a good job and writing a nice note and you know, she doesn't need like the grand fanfare. So I think it's really interesting when you said that it came to my mind and it got me thinking, what do I really like as, as reward and recognition? And I have to say, I sort of like the, just a nice email letter. Like I don't need to be on stage. I don't need it to be in front of a lot of people. And that is what really makes me feel good. Yes. Speaker 2 (08:49): Yeah. And how empowering, just to name and claim that, and then what you're going to want to do if you work for a manager is let them know how meaningful it is. And so for you, as you're as an entrepreneur and business owner, how do we create more opportunities for you Karen, to get those affirmations from me who I'm like, Oh my gosh, you know, I had this terrible injury and now I'm running again. And I just finished my first 5k. I mean, that's what we want in your inbox. Exactly. Speaker 1 (09:24): Yeah, exactly. Okay. So we've got recognition and reward. Strengths is number two, what's number three. Speaker 2 (09:30): This is all about relationships because none of us work in a silo. We all work on teams. And what's interesting is that social pain. So conflict feeling excluded from the group is processed in our brains the same way as physical pain, which is, was show interesting to me in my research. So having really authentic real relationships at work is essential. Not only for performance, but we're talking about being happy, fulfilled, and engaged. And if you don't feel like you've got a best friend or that you can talk to someone or work through conflict, which is part of business, that's a problem. So in this chapter, what we do in the book is we explore your work style, which is how you think and process information, because this is how you're going to work with other people and then identify their work style and learn to communicate with each other in a way that you aren't triggering each other and making each other one of, yeah, I'm not going to work with you and ultimately recognizing where you might be unconsciously undermining that relationship by treating everybody the same way. Speaker 1 (10:43): Yeah. That's so important. Yeah. I'm a huge fan of relationships. And I mean, I have stayed in jobs longer than I probably should have because I love the relationships. I was like, I don't want to leave. I love it here. Speaker 2 (10:57): Yes. And that that's exactly it, the people are important, right. And those relationships that is so important and we've got to do the work right. And that's why that this whole pillar is around cultivate, which requires some self-reflection, but really intentional, thoughtful work to build these relationships that bring us joy and really stretch us and help us grow. That's the fourth one is the development and it's the develop. We call it the five pillars or the five essentials. And the fourth one is to develop new skills. And this is about owning your own professional development, not waiting for your manager, not waiting for your team member to say, Hey, Karen, I think you might like this course. Or have you thought about this position? No, this is about what do I want, how do I want to grow? What's my next step. And being really about putting your own development plan together and then asking your manager to support you. So they might have an internal training program you can join, or maybe they would pay for the conference for you to continue to Uplevel your skills. Speaker 1 (12:06): Yeah. And you know, I think, again, that probably takes a little bit of identifying where, what gaps you might need to fill. So can you sort of, when you went and looked at your strengths and maybe you did find some weaknesses, is this where you would want to start developing those? Or would you take your strengths and continue to strengthen them? I guess, as an individual, you know, Speaker 2 (12:33): So I'm going to suggest that, and this is just my training and background. Let's further refund strengths because I know that the outcome of that is greater. And we also talk about a tool that I created. I call it an abilities opportunity map, where you start to look at the leadership competencies in your organization, certifications did you not get a position? The best person in your field does this? And we don't do it from a place of comparison or judgment. It's just an awareness. Ah, okay, this person has this skill set or this certification I don't just looking. And then once you build this abilities opportunity map, then you go and say, what do I really want to focus on? And how am I going to develop it? Speaker 1 (13:26): Yeah. That makes sense. And kind of looking at your organization and maybe looking at the organization and saying like, I could take, let's say from a physical therapy standpoint it's this great clinic, but while no one's doing pelvic health in this clinic. So perhaps I can develop my pelvic health skills to plug this hole, because like you said, we want to bring more to our employer so that they see us as, you know, boy, this person is a real asset to our company and then you're doing what you love to do. And then they'll continue to promote that. So it sort of circles around, right? Speaker 2 (14:05): It does because the framework and the thesis that I'm operating off of is that the relationship with your employer is a relationship. And any relationship is based on social exchange theory, which is give and take both parties, bring to the relationship and both parties receive. And in a relationship that's healthy, both parties work towards mutually beneficial goals. So developing a pelvic health program is exciting for you. You're passionate about women. This is a way to really expand your skillset, huge win for you, huge win for your clinic. It might not be the only clinic in the city that does this. So this is a beneficial win, more of what you want revenue for your company, your company is distinguishing itself. So that's where it's the employee has an equal and powerful voice in this relationship, right? Speaker 1 (15:05): Yeah. Okay. Makes sense. What's number five. Speaker 2 (15:08): The last one is design your work for more meaning. So this is where we talk about meaning purpose, joy. Speaker 1 (15:19): Hm. Speaker 2 (15:20): Point our point here is that meaning is not defined by what happens to you. It's your interpretation of the events in your life. So we go back to where we started with my premise at any job can be your dream job because you just, you define that dream. And I believe every job has significance. Every job is meaningful. It's up to you to figure out what that meaning is for you, and then start to craft and shape your work for more meaning. So let's say for example, Karen, for you, one thing that brings meaning and purpose to you is helping women that have been struggling for years within contents, so that it's damaged their self-esteem. Maybe they're not going out in public as much. And this is really important that you help these women. It feels like a passion calls for you and meaning, okay. So by developing the skillset for the pelvic therapy, and then you bring it to your company, we're creating meaning you're doing more of what you love and we're generating revenue for your company. The meaning is in the service to these women and how you were an agent of change in their life, Speaker 1 (16:40): Right? So the meaning goes beyond can go beyond just you and just your clinic or just your office or your job, but it can go into sort of the world as a whole, as a whole, which I think is what a lot of people hope that their job can do. Speaker 2 (17:00): Absolutely. And I would suggest every job does that. If you will just step back and look at it. So if we go back to I'm a runner and I'm always injured. And so physical therapists, you are my heroes because you need to doing what I love. And so just a big shout out because you keep me up, right? Cause I'm invariably always doing something and not stretching. So, but if you keep me running and I'm staying engaged and I'm healthy and I'm able to care for and keep up with my kids, like we're now talking about a ripple effect of positivity that you can draw meaning from, but you just gotta reframe because what happens, I'm guilty of this. Karen is that we get really caught up in the transactions of our day at 14 patients to see, Oh my God, have you seen my inbox? The paperwork sucks. Yes. I'm not saying that's not hard, but if we can come back and look at our task as a collective whole, that's where we can draw the meaning from. Speaker 1 (18:08): Yeah. And I'm so happy that you brought up the emails and the paperwork and, you know, cause everybody, I don't care what line of work you're in. You can relate to the emails, the paperwork, the meeting after meeting, after meeting patient, after patient, after patient. Right? So this can often lead, I think, for a lot of people to state of burnout. Right? So how can we use these five tools to help us avoid that? That what some people think is an inevitable burnout? Speaker 2 (18:40): So I'm an, a challenge. Inevitable is I don't believe anything is inevitable. I here to put quotes, air quotes. No, I'm just gonna push back. Cause I think we're aligned on that. I think we better they're like no enough, you know? So two ways, one, we double down on strengths. So when we are working from our strengths, the work is feels easier. There's less effort, but greater impact, more joy, more flow. So the more we identify connect that to how it helps our employer and really intentionally push ourselves to keep doing more of that work can help tremendously the other, Oh, there's two more things. The other thing is back to this meaning that we'll want to pull on. So even at the end of the darkest week of, I am beyond exhausted been doing this, you know, my student loan debt does not seem to be going anywhere. Speaker 2 (19:40): I'm chipping away at it. Can you pull back and find a little source of hope from the meeting? And then the third piece is the productivity. So where are you getting really thoughtful about? Let's take your inbox. I believe your inbox can be the best personal assistant you've ever had. The technology is powerful. We just don't use it. So why are we not automating our email management? So you can write rules, you can automatically schedule and send emails. We can create whole systems that filter what comes in. We can create templates. There's so much that can be done with not a lot of effort that can save you hours. So I think sometimes in the burnout we're like, Oh, it's going to take me energy and time to spend 10 minutes in my inbox, setting up that rule and two templates and Speaker 1 (20:30): Yeah, exactly. I'm like, ah, one more thing. Speaker 2 (20:35): And you're not saying no way. You're probably having an expletive in there. And I'd say, if you do this set a timer, 10 minutes, I'm going to set up one rule and write one automatic template because people ask me this question all the time. I just want to be able to use it over and over again, and then I'm done. But those two actions could potentially save you hours. So it's 10 minutes on productivity tools, looking for automation saying no to meetings that you don't need to attend because they're going to print everything they talked about and posted on the bulletin board. Or you're not even sure why you're there and there's no agenda. And it's just going to people rambling. Don't go say no. Speaker 1 (21:23): Yeah. I think that's a huge thing for people. And I've just really come to get better at the saying no thing. Of like when it's not like, when, if it's something that's not working for me, like I have to get better at saying no, because then I over-schedule myself and then I'm all stressed out. Speaker 2 (21:44): Right. And it's a self perpetuating hamster wheel. Right. Just keep on it. And the no is freedom. So one way to look at it is every time you say no to something, you're saying yes to something else. Right. Speaker 1 (22:02): So how do you, what's a gracious way to say no, Speaker 2 (22:06): At this point, I'm not able to take on any more projects with the level of attention and detail that I like to bring to projects. So thank you so much for thinking of me. Well, that's good. I like that. Yeah. Thank you for inviting me to your meeting on Friday. I can't attend. If there's anything that you would like for me to think about or reflect on in advance, please let me know. And I'll send you an email. Speaker 1 (22:30): Oh, that's nice too. Oh, very good. Very good. Hopefully people are taking notes on those. Yeah. That's really good. That's a nice way to say no, versus just saying, Oh, I'm sorry. I don't have the time. Speaker 2 (22:44): Right. And the other piece of the, no, I learned this the hard way and I'm sure your listeners have tucked up, but I live in the South. And so Dan said, we've got a little polite niceness culture going on. And part of a, no is not inviting the second email or you not busy now, Karen, how about now to meet for coffee? So we want to know that has a firm boundary that isn't going to get the creeping back. Speaker 1 (23:14): Yes. Yes. And that's hard. So, cause I know sometimes I'll say, Oh, you know, I'm, I'm really busy for the next couple of months, but why don't you check back later? No, no. Should not be doing that. Speaker 2 (23:24): No, no, no. And there's also an, I think there's tremendous value of going back to my first example of you value and respect that person you value and respect to the board, the project, the ask enough to say you aren't going to get the best of me. I can't, I can't bring you what you deserve, what this organization deserves. Thank you for thinking of me. Speaker 1 (23:50): Yeah. Kind of putting, putting them before you. Yes Speaker 2 (23:53): It's because ultimately I, I do believe we want to do our best work and when we're stretched so thin, it's just not possible. And then we began disappointing ourselves and others and that's not a cycle we want to be on either. So the door firmly don't get the creepy crawlies coming back, asking how about now? It's two months later. Where are you? No, I'm still not available. Speaker 1 (24:17): Yeah. No, that's so good. That's so good. Have a firm close to that door. Gosh, that's great. Yeah. I love that. Now is there anything else that you kind of want to add on here? That maybe we didn't cover on, on allowing people to really love their work and love their job? Speaker 2 (24:39): Yes, but I have to share, I'm going to give you one more productivity hack. Can I do that? Speaker 1 (24:44): Oh my God. I didn't want to, you can give me 10 more. I didn't want to keep asking on what, what about this one? Do you have three more that I want to give you? I can't help myself Speaker 2 (24:57): Then listeners bear with me. If you don't like this, just speed up just fast forward. Okay. So the first one was stack. So stack saying no is hard. So what I coach my clients on is let's create a template and email to say, no, these are the no templates, no, to be on the board. No, to do this project. So you think about it. You write the know and when you get that ask click. Speaker 1 (25:25): And so when you have a template, so do you mean you sort of just keep it in like a word doc and then copy paste into your email. Speaker 2 (25:33): So depending on your email platform, so I'll start with outlook and outlook. The best way to do this is to create multiple signatures. So an outlet, people think about a signatures. Haven't, you know, Karen and your phone number. Well, you can create as many, many signatures as you want. So you go in and create a signature that is gracious. No to project ask you type it, you save it. Then when I send an email, Karen I've gotten great new task force really wants you to be on you. Hit reply, insert gracious, no project signature. And in 30 seconds we've saved time. And we haven't gone through the angst of how do I say no? How do I let them down? How do I close the door? No, we do the thinking on the front end. And we just use this over and over again. So we're stacking two habits here and leveraging technology. Speaker 1 (26:36): Nice. Yeah. That's great. Speaker 2 (26:39): In g-mail you can set up templates too, as that function the same way and absolutely care. Nothing wrong with the word doc I'm copy and paste key is we write it once and you use it over and over again. We don't do the rework time. Copy paste, drop and go. Yeah, that's fabulous. The second one that is one of my favorite ones for healthcare workers is so your day is scheduled for you patient, patient, patient. And so what happens during the day is a lot of things that you could potentially do, like little tiny task or maybe call. I don't want to get your hair cut or whatever doesn't happen. And so you have all this buildup of tasks that now you're trying to do on the margins of your day. So I tell my healthcare providers build something called a 15 minute list, and this is a list that lives with you. Speaker 2 (27:31): So put it in your lab jacket as a piece of paper, put it on your phone. I don't care Magnasco and how you get it around, but it needs to be with you. And these are tasks you can do in 15 minutes or less. So schedule your cats, that checkup prep for the one-on-one with your team member, call and cancel call all of the little itsy-bitsy things that don't take a lot of time. And then what you do is when you have that patient, that's 10 minutes late, you pull out your list and you go because I can get these things done and these micro segments of our day. So it's a really efficient way to stay on top of the nits and NATS that can add up and feel overwhelming. Great. And then the third one that works well and healthcare and for everyone, but a love it from a healthcare providers is something we call protect your 90. So this is 90 minutes a day on your strategic priorities. So it could be professional development. It could be, you might be doing some research, writing a paper, it could be catching up on your charts, whatever it is. But the way it works is it's 90 minutes a day. That's focused now it's not 90 continuous minutes. Speaker 3 (28:54): That's what I was just going to ask. Yeah, no, I made only unicorns have that and without I haven't met a unicorn. Speaker 2 (28:59): Yep. So this is the power of it. So it might be 20 minutes that you choose during lunch to do your focus. Then you have another little 10 minute window where you might do another little sprint focus, but the goal is 90 minutes a day because the power and five work days, that's seven and a half hours of focus time. That is a game changer. I have had physicians write really complex research papers using this strategy because we're just chunking just yeah. Intention, intentional chunks focused, and then we go back, but it's the consecutive effort over time that up. And it doesn't feel overwhelming. I mean that versus saying I need seven and a half hours of your time. Speaker 1 (29:47): Yeah, no, that's great. Very good. Very good. I love it. Okay. So I feel like we've gone over so much but I'm loving the productivity, hacks and tips, and also loving your sort of five step template or plan to kind of love your job again. So is there anything else about that? And like I said, productivity hacks, we can go for days. People can go to your website and find more. But anything anything else on people loving their job and loving what they do? What would you like people to really remember about the chat Speaker 2 (30:25): Clarity creates opportunity. So doing the work to identify what your dream job looks like, how you want to be acknowledged and rewarded what your strengths are, the relationships you want to develop, the skills you want to grow in the meaning you bring, it opens up infinite possibilities for you in your current job. And I would suggest in future jobs, that knowledge is power. Speaker 1 (30:55): Yeah, that's great. And before we sort of sign off and find out where everyone can get in touch with you, I have one more question that I ask everyone. And that's knowing where you are now in your life and in your career. What advice would you give to your younger self? Whether it be fresh at a college or what, you know, what advice would you give to yourself? Speaker 2 (31:16): Play more? I'm a type, a perfectionist recovering. Some days, some days I'm not recovering and I will get in that strive mode and I've done it since I was 18 years old and would go back and say, it's okay, play a little more. The work's going to be there. And what I've come to learn now is that in play, that's where you're going to find those brilliant insights and connections and the juice to not be burned out. So one reason we get burned out is because we don't play. We just work all the time. Speaker 1 (31:52): Yeah. That is great advice. And I have to say, I've heard that from a couple of people on this question is to just kind of like chill out a little bit more relaxed, a little more play a little bit more. So that is great advice. Now, Carson, where can people find you if they want more information about you and what you do and, and all of and yeah. Speaker 2 (32:11): And your book. Yeah. So the book own it, love it, make it work. All of your favorite retailers, Amazon is available online. And then my website, Carson, tate.com. Check out the blogs. If you want productivity hacks, they're there tips on loving your job. We've got assessments. All the goodies are on the website. Carson, tate.com. Awesome. Speaker 1 (32:32): And then for social media, Speaker 2 (32:35): Yes, LinkedIn, the Carson Tate. Awesome. Well, thank Speaker 1 (32:40): You Carson so much. This was great. I think you gave my listeners so much to work with, so I thank you so much. Speaker 2 (32:47): Thank you, Karen. I appreciate it. And thank you guys for all that you do for us. Speaker 1 (32:52): Thank you. Thank you. And everyone who's listening. Thanks so much. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.