Healthy Wealthy & Smart

Dr. Karen Litzy, PT, DPT

The Healthy Wealthy & Smart podcast with Dr. Karen Litzy is the perfect blend of clinical skills and business skills to help healthcare and fitness professionals uplevel their careers.

Episodes

Mentioned books

Jul 18, 2022 • 1h 6min

598: The Implication of the Dobbs Verdict for Physical Therapists

Jul 11, 2022 • 48min

597: Jamey Schrier: 4 Simple Way to Hire and Retain Staff in an Economic Downturn

In this episode, Founder and CEO of Practice Freedom U, Jamey Schrier, talks about hiring and retaining staff. Today, Jamey talks about changing how business owners see employees, the 3X rule, and digging deep to find clarity. What can business owners do to hire the right people? Hear about the importance of being inspired by your vision, successful marketing strategies, slowing down the hiring process, and get Jamey's advice to his younger self, all on today's episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast. Key Takeaways "Besides you, your employees are the most important people in your business life." "Meet your prospects where they are." "Employees want to work for a company that has a purpose." "The first person your vision needs to inspire is you." "When clarity happens, you get power, you get confidence, and you get dialed in. When you have that kind of focus, that's where magic happens." "We've become infatuated with advancement. We've become infatuated with certifications." "Hire for traits. Train for skill." "If you are a business that's growing, then you can never stop looking for talent." "Having a process and slowing things down is critical." "Be vulnerable. Be open." More about Jamey Schrier Jamey Schrier, P.T. is a best-selling author, speaker, and Founder and CEO of Practice Freedom U, a business training and coaching company. Jamey is a former private practice owner, and his book, The Practice Freedom Method has helped scores of practitioners Treat Less, and Earn More, and enjoy a life they deserve. Suggested Keywords Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, Business, Hiring, Employment, Purpose, Vision, Values, Inspiration, Interviews, Focus, Strategies, Marketing, Get $200 off Jamey's Course To learn more, follow Jamey at: Website: https://www.practicefreedomu.com LinkedIn: Jamey Schrier, PT Facebook: Practice Freedom U Jamey Schrier Twitter: @JameySchrier Instagram: @JameySchrierPFU Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website: https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927 Read the Full Transcript Here: 00:02 Hey Jamie, welcome back to the podcast. I'm happy to have you on I think you're quickly becoming my most regular guest and I'm really happy and thankful for it. So welcome back. Oh, thanks, Karen. I 00:14 appreciate being invited back and I am honored to be a regular it's like the old school while I'm dating myself here with the Johnny Carson Show. I mean, that's, that's going back and I don't want to date either one of us, but it's like, you know, the regular guests that's on there. They can't find anybody. There. Schreier. He's a felon. He didn't come in there and fill up some time. 00:38 Oh, that's so funny. I think I was watching Seth Meyers and Rachel Drac was on and that's what they said, Rachel Drac is like, you know, someone else was supposed to be there. But I don't know if they got sick, or they couldn't make it. And so they called her that afternoon. She was like, Sure. Tell me about her. 00:55 Oh, I've watched a sports show called PTI. Pardon the Interruption around it takes place right in DC. And one of the guys is called Phil and Frank. It's like, if they ever need anybody, someone's out sick. You know, Frank, I saw he, he jumps in and fills in at any, you know, at a moment's notice. So, you know, I don't know if I'll fill in Jamie. But well, well, you're 01:17 not, you're not filling in, you're just a regular guest. 01:22 Thank you, thank you, 01:23 not a fill in. It's just a regular guest. So today, we're going to talk about something I don't think I've really talked about on the podcast, at least, I can't remember talking about this in great detail. And that is, how to hire people how to retain staff, which, you know, as we were speaking before we went on is a problem, not just in physical therapy right now, but in a lot of industries across the board around the country. So let's dive in. So you have four surprisingly simple ways to hire and retain staff. So let's get to it. 02:03 Yeah, I mean, you know, as we know, it's a difficult marketplace. And I think, you know, this shift isn't just a shift that is, oh, they're gonna have a shift, and it's gonna be all fine tomorrow. No, I'm not gonna say it's not a permanent shift, as far as we're always going to have this difficulty, you know, really finding good people. But I do think it's a shift that is going to stay around as far as what people are deeming important, what people are deeming valuable. And I think it's important for us in the hiring marketplace, that we begin to shift how we as business owners, and that's kind of the position, I always come from being a business owner, and you being a business owner, is how we need to shift our way how we think about employees. You know, it's interesting, you know, I speak to so many people every day, every week, whether there are clients or, or just people out and about and in the business industry, and, you know, I can't tell you, Karen, how many times people talk about employees as a cost, right? It's like, oh, how much are they going to cost and, and I don't know if I can afford them, and all they care about is wanting more money, and this and that, and, um, you know, and it, it kind of, it hits me, because I think the first thing we have to do collectively, at least as a group of business owners is start to shift that your employees besides you, your employees are the most important people in your life and your business life. And if you don't mentally look at them as an investment, just like you look at any other investment you're doing, that will bleed into other things. It'll bleed to how you treat them, it'll bleed into some of the things you say are some of the things that you create or benefits or whatever the case is. And I've seen that so often, I used to do that, because I used to kind of think that way is they were a cost come in, do your job, shut up and just leave me alone type of thing. And you know, that is not the right way. It's never been the right way. But now more than ever, that's kind of the premise of all of this is shifting in these people are an investment. And investments are things that you want to nurture. You want to help you want to grow, you want to be assets. And I think it takes that fundamental shift before anything, because if not, everything just becomes an empty strategy or something but it won't hold. It won't have teeth to it. If there isn't that shift and how we think you know what I mean? 04:54 I do I do and I think that's a really great distinction that you made that you for employers to look at their employees as a real investment, because if that employee is nurtured and you help them grow, if they can help grow and expand your business in ways that you never thought could even be possible. 05:17 Exactly. And it sounds simple, it's easy to read in a book or listen on a wonderful podcast, but actually doing it in the moment is not as easy to do. Because we have wiring ourselves, we have thoughts, we have biases, we have upbringings and influences in our lives, as we all do. And these things, you know, whether you call them, you know, limiting beliefs or negative biases, we have all of these things that start to affect how we think and how we communicate. And how we ultimately, you know, put into action, some of these things. And if you don't feel that way, you don't think that way, it will come out, during how you interview how you post an ad. I mean, you know, I can be very honest with you, I know, you know, my ads used to be going on, I don't even know if it was indeed at the time, but going on whatever the latest thing was Craigslist or something, and just looking at another company and just copying their ad. I mean, I didn't know what to say, I didn't really know what I was doing. But I just thought, hey, if the hospital, you know, put an ad up, they must know what they're doing. Because they got you know, a lot of money and they hire good people. So my ad was basically a hospital ad. And what's interesting is, so many so many people continue to do that they, they put up some vanilla job ad on indeed. And they're like, well, this used to work, it ain't working anymore, you cannot do that anymore. It's not going to get you people, and it's certainly not going to get you the right people. You know, the real, the real thing right now is, you know, truly differentiating yourself leading with the positives. And, you know, I know we'll get into this in a second, but really looking at these people looking at these potential employees as investments and learning, how do you meet them? Where they are, right, there's an old marketing term is, you know, you know, meet your prospects, where they are joined the conversation they're having in their brain, which really means is, understand them, perhaps better than they can understand themselves, do your do your research. And, you know, I never knew anything like that. But I think that that's, that's what we all need to do is pause for a second and really understand the type of person that we're looking for, and learn as much about them. And when you're able to do that, you're able to put together what's what's called an employee value proposition, you know, you've we've heard and and we talk marketing, your unique selling proposition, all kinds of different propositions, but this idea of a an EVP and employee value proposition, yes, our job is to seek out and actually sell people on what we have to offer, why they should buy quotes, what we're selling. And it is a different way of looking at it. And for a lot of people, it's uncomfortable, and it's like, I shouldn't have to do that as as some of the things I've heard, you know, I shouldn't have to do that. They should want to work for me, you know, we give the greatest care and, and we're the best at what we do. And we really care about our people and all that it's like, yeah, but so does everybody else. 09:08 That's what I was just thinking doesn't everybody? 09:11 Yeah, I'm okay. And I know you care just a little bit more than I do about quality care. And I know that I mean, but that's, that's the mindset we come with. What we don't come with is we need to put our best foot forward. And we need to understand these people that we are trying I know we hate the S word. But we are trying to I'll say the P word and said persuade them for coming to interview with us. And then if we liked them, persuade them to commit to working for us. And you know what, when you have the ability to get pretty much any job you want out there, you put a posting out that you got 10 potential offers maybe 20 You're in competition with A lot of other people, and you have to realize that and have to do the work. It's not hard work. But it's focused work to understand more about who you're trying to get than you ever needed to do in the past. So that's kind of the premise of the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. So 10:19 I was gonna say, Is this part of these, like, we mentioned the top kind of simple ways to hire and retain staff, is this part of it? Or is this the background you need to do to get to? 10:32 I think, I think it's the background. I mean, if I mean, you could put it in there. But you know, for this for this conversation, I'm kind of setting the stage of, of the background of where people need to be coming from. I mean, the bottom line is, why should they work for you? It's really that simple. Why should they work for you, because they can work for someone else, no matter what you say, one an hour to an hour. But there's, there's already 10 other people doing the same thing. So you know, one of the things that now we're gonna get into the specifics, you know, one of the things we talked about, you know, we need to treat them like an investment. But it goes beyond that, we need to understand number one thing that every owner needs to do is understand what their worth is. I did some research on this. There's a recent Gallup poll. And they said 60% 64% of employees said that a significant increase in income and benefits. Was there number one won't. Now, which is interesting. It wasn't necessarily number one, a little while ago, it was never number one. For many years, it was never even a top five money was not the focus. Well, it is now and you can't blame them. Because let's say education is a fortune. Right? Some people No, in our industry are saying, it's not even worth it. If you look on paper, just money, you invest in education. And when you get it back, you might be in debt for 20 years before you actually pay it off. Depending if you have 234 100,000, you have inflation, it just cost more to live in some of these cities like yours, and mine, it costs a lot to live wow, you know, you adjust for the insurance that you get, if you do take insurance. It's not covering that. So they expect the employer to do that. So this, this question of, you know, what is their worth? I've heard from so many people that say to me, you know, I can't afford that. And I say, Okay, well, what can you afford? Well, I don't know. And there's the problem. You need to know what this person is worth to your company at the level that you want them working. So for instance, I like to use a three multiple and a typical outpatient example. So if you're a typical outpatient, orthopedics, not, you know, insurance based, most likely, but it really depends. And your multiple of salary, not benefits, not taxes, and it just salary. It has to be at least three times, meaning that if you pay someone 75,000, that person should produce 225,000 in revenue, a three multiple it's just a ballpark. Could it be less than a three? It could be? It really depends how what your expenses are like, what's your rent, like? 13:42 You know, your other overhead and all that kind of stuff to make sure that you can cover all that and still have money for profit, let's not forget, profit. If it's greater than that, you should be really clear you should be fine. So it's our job to really dial in, what can this person generate? And then use that ballpark three times to determine what you can afford. So this shines a light. Karen and I and I've had some recent conversations with people and analyzing their business is shines a light on people's business models, some people's business models, they have this altruistic will I want to do one patient an hour, I'm like, hey, you know, we don't tell people what your model should be. We just tell you whether it's going to be profitable. And it's going to achieve the goals that you want, especially especially to financial goals. So if you do one patient an hour at $100 a visit, I can tell you right now there is no way you're ever going to be able to afford the people to work for you. That stay with you. It's It's literally impossible, because there's not enough money. Let's say it's one patient an hour that's at the greatest 808 A day Don't eat everyday, which is not going to happen. So let's say it's 30 or 35, you know, a week at 100 bucks 3500, that's 14,000 a month, that's 120 450 $160,000 Eat, you're gonna afford $50,000 therapists. And most people don't look at it like that care. And they go into this. And they look at it in the Yeah, but I want to deliver, you know, quality care one an hour, but they don't they haven't done all the numbers, whether they can actually build a business on that. Now, can they work for themselves and be like you and I were talking about before the show solopreneur? Sure, they can do that, you can just give yourself a job. And you might be able to make some decent money, but that's the job, right? That's just a self employed job. And if that's what you want, that's fine. But if you want to hire people and actually build a business, where gives you freedom, you're going to have to make a decision. But that's, that's so many times where people kind of have the wake up call and be like, oh, man, I need to change kind of how we're doing No wonder I don't have any money in the bank, even though we're 90% utilization. And that's a horrible feeling. When you're working your butt off, everyone's working their butt off, and there's still no money. That's a fundamental flaw. So that's, that's kind of the surprisingly simple way is just get clear on what you can afford. Use the three times as just a guideline and see what a you expect them, how productive do you expect them to be? Is it 80% 85%, whatever visits you want, multiply that by how much you get paid per visit, and just see what that looks like. That's where you need to start, then you can answer the question how much you can afford, you can answer the question what the therapist is worth to your practice, how much they can generate. And at least it gives you more data to know if the person says 80,000, and you never given anybody more than 72 You know what you might be able to afford that. And it might be a really good hire if they're a good fit. So anyways, that's that's kind of a the the number one thing that I'll start with? 17:13 Yeah, I think that's great, practical, easy to understand. What's next, what else can we do to hire the right people? 17:20 Yeah. So number two is a biggie. And this is, comes to Forbes magazine talks about this, I call it be on purpose, be on purpose. According to Forbes, employees want to work for a company that has a purpose, right. And we have a such a deep purpose. Us as as therapists, caregivers, we are healers. We're healing the world. And sometimes that message gets lost. Sometimes we forget that message about what we're really doing. Sometimes we speak about metrics and productivity, and we lose the message about what we're doing this for. And other times, it's all about the quality of the quality. And we have a business that is in financial instability. So how do we become on purpose? Well, the first thing is we have to get a vision, we have to get a vision as Simon Sinek talked about a vision as a just cause there was an interesting TED talk that he was talking about, or maybe it wasn't a TED talk, it was just a video, but he was talking about having a just cause a vision needs to be your Northstar. A vision needs to be inspiring. And the first person your vision needs to inspire is you. If you're not inspired by envision, like, you know, caring if it's like, what's your vision, you share a vision and you're like, so, you know, how do you feel about there and like, whatever. If you're not inspired, you're not going to share that vision to others. And if you don't have a vision, we'll put in values. Your values don't have to be these company values that you see in whatever commercials and they're on some rock outside the thing. Values are your beliefs. What do you believe in? What do you believe about the work that you do? Why is this work so darn important to you? People want to be connected to something they can get a job working anywhere. So why do they want to work for you? What are you about? What is your story in your business? I share my story a lot I've shared it on on your podcast many many times. And more people come up to me and say oh my god, I resonated with your story. I didn't have a fire and burned down my place but I've had some really difficult times. We are story people we love movies. We love plays. We love dying. Begin to stories. What is it about your business? How did you get started what it means to you, because during an interview, that's what people are going to connect to. That's what's being on purpose. So take some time and write down what your vision is, what your story is, what your values are, what does this mean to you? And use that with your current team, of course. But also you can use that in your interview process. 20:30 Yep, I love it. That was a huge part of what I did. You know, maybe two years ago, I was really being intentional and looking at mission, vision and values, and really understanding why I do what I do, why I started my practice, why I decided to go out on my own. And it was really enlightening, and made me appreciate the business that I have so much more. So if if you are a business owner out there, and you haven't, like maybe you've written down like a mission, vision and values A while ago, just to have it on your website, or just to do it, I would suggest go back, revisit it and really think about who you are as a person why you decided to start your practice what is really important to you. Another thing that I talked about at ascend, and that we did in the Goldman Sachs 10,000 small business program was they had us find like a totem. So this totem could be, it could be a phrase, it could be a physical object. It could be a mythical creature, if you will, whatever you want. That encapsulates why you do what you do or encapsulates your vision. And I remember thinking, told them, I don't know what I don't know what that what do I told them? And they're like, yeah, just let it. And then I was like, Oh, of course I do. Because it's been my sort of guidance for, I don't know, 18 years now. So even before I moved to New York City, before I started my practice, I was sort of obsessed with the cathedral by Rodin, which is two right hands coming together. So when you look at it quickly, it looks like a right and a left hand is actually two right hands. So it's two right hands coming together, not touching. So I always looked at that is like therapist and patient coming together with space in the middle to kind of grow and move. But you could take that into you and an employee, it could be you and a partner, but it's coming together, but not fully. But having that space in the middle having space for new things to come. So that was kind of my totem. And I didn't even realize it until I did this went deeper into this process two years ago. So I highly suggest people if you've already done it, do it again. 23:08 Yeah, you know it. I love I love your story in a lovely, what you're sharing, you know, I think that as as highly left brain analytical, very smart people. I think sometimes we have a difficult time going deep. Cal Newport, who actually is here in Georgetown universe, Georgetown, you know, talks about deep work going below the superficial. And we have a tough time with that. I don't know if we have a tough time being vulnerable, which I know we do. A lot of people do. But vulnerability is power. That'll be maybe my next talk here. But I you know, we have a tough time of going below the superficial and going into the real deep, where the real work happens. The feelings, the emotions, the connections of why do you do what you do? You don't have to you can do anything you want. Why this? You don't have to start your business. No one forced you to why it's bigger than I didn't like my boss. That's why he started. It's bigger than that. You have to go deeper. And when you do you get such clarity. And because when clarity happens, you get power. You get confidence and you get dialed in. And when you have that kind of focus, that's where magic happens. Because other than that, it's a noisy world and it's easy to get distracted. I mean it's easy to get distracted by everybody else's stuff. So, so important, because here's the thing when you when you are dialed in on your your vision, your story, what who you are I'll tell you what One thing is going to happen, these people are going to come into your world candidates or whatever they're going to know who you are, they're going to know what you're about, they're going to know where you're headed. Now, whether they choose to be a part of it or not, that's their choice. But there's not going to be a confusion about what you're about. And you know what, give me that every day of the week, because what I don't want is there. They're just there. It's kind of like, everybody else, stand for something, draw a line. And it starts by doing that deep work. So that's number two. My next one is, is one of my favorites. It's higher for traits train for skill. I feel as as an industry, that we have become infatuated with advancement. And I don't, and if 25:52 you mean all those initials after your name, 25:56 well, we'll carry on, let's just say it we've become infatuated with, with with certifications, with initials with with almost to say, Karen, I got 28 initials. Karen, I'm better than you. I'm a good person. I'm a great therapist, because I'm really, really smart. Well, guess what, Karen, you were smart, when you graduated, you're smarter than better than 1%, you know, then the other 99% of the world, you were already smart? How much more do you need for you to look in the mirror and say, You know what, you're good enough. You're okay, because you can't remember 90% of the stuff that you're learning anyways, I don't know where that certification and that more and more is better. I mean, there's definitely a financial part there. Because, of course, people get paid for the more education and there's people that are doing that, that are highly paid. But you know, this idea of the more letters the better all be. Now, here's the problem with hiring with that, because you're like, Jamie, we're gonna how's the connection? The connection is this. Because you can get enamored with a resume with someone that has two things, one, a lot of experience, we love that. And to a lot of initials, because in our head, we've taken that, and I've had people tell me that on so many occasions, well, will they have experience in a ton of certifications? I go, and well, I just assume I go, Yeah, I just hope that they would, I thought that they would what? Well, I just thought that because of that they would just be this amazing person that walked in, and they would do things the way that I would do them. They would just own it. And they would just be amazing. And I said, yeah, no, that's not what makes them amazing. You see, being a professional is not about having all that stuff. It's okay to have it if you want to have it if you want to learn, but you know, what? What are the traits, the characteristics that you're looking for with a person? Whether it's a front desk, whether it's a therapist, whether it's a clinical director? Who are they? Who are you looking for, because that the person that's going to walk in, and that's the person you're gonna get. The other aspects the skill, let's face it, we can train someone for any skill that's out there. There is a course for it. There is of course, a certification for him. There is a continuing ed for which you can't really change who someone is. If they're not a timely person, then they're not a timely person. If they're an introvert, they're an introvert. I mean, if you want an extrovert people person and you hire an introvert with a great resume, you're gonna get an introvert with a great resume. But if you hire someone hungry, if you hire someone that just has the, the, the, the characteristics, the character that you're looking for, who believes in what you're doing, who shares your values, of integrity, of timeliness, of commitment of just doing what's right. Give me that person every day of the week, and I will train them on the other stuff. But Karen, here's where some of the challenges occur. What if you don't actually have a training process? 29:33 What if you don't really have a hiring and onboarding process it's kind of some I don't know just something you kind of do. Their lair lies the problem. The real challenge is you don't have that. And if you don't have that you do the hope and pray method. I hope I the worst that kill me is Jamie. I think I hired a rockstar and I go oh boy. Here we go. Because hiring a rockstar is the hope and pray method. In your mind, they're a rockstar because you are hoping that they are because you don't have time to deal with this. Because you need to move on to something else because you are overwhelmed. Give me someone who's passionate about playing the guitar, and I will turn them into a rock star, but a rock star at my place. I don't need a rockstar at someone else's place. Because rarely, if ever, does that convey in someone being that a player at my place. So that's the biggest thing. really sit down, write down what are the characteristics that you want for this position? Are they outgoing? Hi, Quickstart, you know, talk about their emotional intelligence, are they detailed oriented, they follow through communication skills, you know, relational skills, like really get clear again, on the type of person that you want. And if they're not that person, no matter what their resume says, then maybe they might fit another position. But you want to be really careful about bringing them in, because it's an expensive endeavor that you're making. You don't want to make the wrong investment. 31:14 Yeah, absolutely. And I think I'm just gonna repeat that one more time. Hire for traits train for skill, just so people have that embedded into their freight train for skill. Yeah, yeah. Excellent. Okay, what's the last one? Last 31:31 one, expand your reach? Look, marketing is about awareness. The more you create awareness out in the world, the more opportunities and people come to you, we are in the marketing, of looking for candidates. So we have to use that same mentality, we're trying to find good people, we need to ramp up our efforts. So we need more effort. And we need to expand our reach, we need to explore every channel and open every door that's out there and apply a massive amount of action for a long period of time, this doesn't end we are all Talent scouts, it never ends. As long as you're trying to grow, you're always looking for talent. And if there's a if you find someone, you'll figure out a way to bring them in, because you'll know what they're worth to you. So what are some things you can do LinkedIn, had a friend of mine do LinkedIn strategy, which is basically connect with with people connect with I mean, LinkedIn is a 24 hour, seven day a week networking site, they just connected with people just generally connected with people. And then, you know, said, Hey, by the way, you know, I'm looking for this particular type of person. Do you know of anybody? Would you mind sharing the this as sharing his job description? With your network? I'd really appreciate it. They're like, sure. Now, all of a sudden, he had 567 people 10 people sharing this. Within a week, he had someone in Texas, saying, actually, you know what, I'm just finishing up my rotation, which was kind of weird, because it was at the same place that he actually did a rotation at, you know, some massive sports place in Texas. And the person's he's flying them up for an interview here. I mean, that costs nothing. It costs nothing. So LinkedIn, your staff, if you have a decent staff, they like working there, well guess what their staff there, your staff has a network of people, especially your therapists, give them a referral bonus. Ask them to reach out to their people, you know, great way to network. And we've hired lots of people through people that already worked for us. Your past patients, your contact lists, you know, again, sounds simple. Put it out there, hey, we're growing we're looking for and be specific. We're looking for someone to join our team, someone that has these qualities. If you have to every state has a list you can purchase. Right? I did this several times I purchased a list. It wasn't very expensive. They give you addresses, they don't give you email addresses. It's funny, I can actually go to your home right now, Karen, because you're on that list. I can go to your home in New York. But God forbid I can email you. And you can just you can just say unsubscribe or or just delete me, but I can go to your house. I never really understood that one. But that's the way it is. You can purchase a list, you can send them a letter, hey, put your best foot forward send them a great letter about the position. Are they interested? Do they know someone and guess what? Nobody really gets any good mail anymore. They're going to open up your letter. So that's a little more expensive, but it's still worth it. And of course your network pass candidates students. A longer term approach would be have a student program it is the best way to do a 12 week interview with them. And then you know, you know, obviously there's there's companies out there, there's recruiters out there, definitely a bit more expensive. But if you know what the value is of them of the person that you're going to bring on board, then it might be an investment that's worth it to you. So the key is, if you are a business that's growing, then you can never stop looking for talent. And once you do that, you will start to bring in people quality people, look, most of us aren't these massive companies that need 1020 therapists, one or two people can make all the difference. So let's shift your mind out of the idea that there's nobody out there, there's no good people out there, there are, you don't need a million people, what you need is to get very clear on who you're looking for. And you need to put a massive amount of effort behind it into networks. And I promise you'll find somebody a lot quicker than you think. But don't just put an ad on, indeed, that you got from another person. And think that's all you need to do. It definitely takes a lot more effort these days. 36:11 Yeah. All right. So I'm gonna recap. So yes, understanding what would their worth is. So that's that three times, rule. Be on purpose, make sure you have a purpose, be clear on your vision, values and mission. Hire for traits not trained for skill, and finally, expand your reach. So in all great ways, for owners of any business, of course, here, we're sort of talking about physical therapy. But I think great advice for any business owner in this atmosphere that we are currently in, in an economic downturn in a time where it seems like man, I cannot find good talent, right? So it's looking inward at yourself as to what you're putting out into the world and then putting yourself out there to find those right people? 37:08 Absolutely. I got a fifth bonus one if you want. Yeah, let's do it. Bonus one here, slow it down. Kind of contrary, to put massive effort, but hear me on this. So the biggest challenge we have right now, as people, especially as business owners, the biggest challenge we have is a lack of focus. If we could just focus on what we wanted to get done, we'd get it done, because we're doers, and we can get things done. But we can't because of all of the distractions that's going on. Well guess what, most people hire out of reaction of something else happening. Either someone quit, or Oh, my God, we have an influx of people. So you're reacting to that. And when you react to something like that, this becomes emotional. And when it becomes emotional, we basically just want to solve the problem and move on because we're overwhelmed. When you slow it down, you slow it down in the form of a process. It's a hiring process. Right? One of the one of the most important things that I learned that I did is have actually a clear step by step process and not miss any of them. Because when I did this before, quick little story, I didn't have a process for a long time. You know, I had an ad and I put it out there, whatever, and I hired people. But when I was interviewing people, I wasn't interviewing them. I was basically trying to sell them to come in, I would literally ask them a question and give them the answers to it. Hey, Karen, you know, our values is integrity and honesty. And, and you know, we like to have fun. Is that is that? Do you believe in that too? I mean, that's an IQ test. All you have to do is say, Yeah, I do. I don't I thought you did. Hey, this is a great place. I'd love to have you would you want to come on board? I'll give you whatever you want. Like, just, I don't have time for this crap. I got other things to do. Let me bring in probably one of the most important people that I'm ever going to hire. This was for a clinical director job that I did a half hour interview and that was it. That was the entire interview process, half hour hire the person. Unfortunately, the person ends up getting arrested six months later. Why? Because let's see person improperly touched a woman during a screening process. Well guess what my board found out in Maryland. And I was called in an investigation and asked 156 questions and learned a lot about HR learned a lot about having processes, learn a lot about having policies and procedures. And then I started doing much more of a background check than I ever did. Oh, I did his check to see if he had a license in Maryland. Oh, guess what? In another state. He was on probation for doing something very similar. But he didn't report it to me which was on him. He was supposed to but I didn't even check right out of the have, you know, I just assumed that his references were good? So it sounds like well, Jamie, you're a moron. Well, maybe so. But what I ended up creating was a very clear step by step process that slowed me down to make sure I did a resume review, and did a checklist on it. I made sure I did a phone interview, knowing what questions to ask, then I did an in person interview, then I did a work interview on a work shadowing, then we did background checks. And then we did, I slowed down everything to a process. Now you can go through the process pretty quickly. But you're still checking the boxes, because it was a protection for the company. You see this person getting arrested and doing this stuff. That's on me that's on the owner. And then I come to find out that he was a little creepy to the rest of the staff, who of course, never told me anything, because I was very high on this person. So having a process and slowing things down is critical. Because once you do that, you then can continue to do that for every person you're hiring. And eventually, you can delegate that. So that's my fifth thing is, is slowing it down and creating a process in this. Yeah, 41:20 great advice. That's a crazy story. Holy cow. Oh, yeah. So it definitely behooves you to do a good background check, and really make sure this is the right person for your practice. Wow. All right. So as we wrap things up, what do you want people to leave with? 41:37 Well, I mean, look, this, this is not easy, right now in our world. And, you know, I gave you I gave you, you know, five actual things that you can do right now. And, you know, it's, it's hard. And you know, one of the things that I've that I've created during my turmoil as a business owner for 15 years is I created my own process. And I turned that process, actually into a program into a course called the right fit hire course. And I've used it in my own business ended up hiring really great people, you know, quadrupling my business and ended up selling it. And now I've used it with hundreds of other people. And what I'd like to do is I like to offer that to your audience. The courses is normally for 497. But I'd like to offer your audience take $200 off, you know, just just, you know, you'll, you'll you'll put the link up there. But you know, it's, this is going to save you a ton of time, ton of energy. It's already split up into how to, you know, recruit great people attract great people qualify them, what the interview questions are, how to do the checklist, it even adds job description, sample, job description, sample ads, sample offer letters, it has all the done for you templates, I did all of that stuff. It even has an onboarding process, and even a training process. So it goes through all four of those components, how to bring in people how to qualify them, and onboard and train them. So it's, it's 297, you'll see you'll see all the things that includes on there. But that's, you know, I want to help people during this trying time, and it's just something that I've used, and so many other people have used successfully that I think would be very beneficial 43:26 to your people. That's incredible. So again, if you're listening, head over to podcast dot healthy, wealthy smart.com. In the show notes of this episode, we'll have a link. So one click will take you right to this, this is a great opportunity. So if you are in the hiring mind, I highly suggest for you to check out this course from Jamie, thank you so much. Now, Jamie, where can people find you? 43:49 Oh, they can find me at Jamie at practice freedom. you.com. If you want to email me personally, you can go to the website, which is practice freedom you the letter u.com You can check that out. And yeah, and I'm all over social media, you don't have to look far. And you'll see me all over there. And yeah, if you want to reach out, say hello, feel free to do so. 44:11 Perfect. And again, we'll have all those links in the show notes as well. So last question, what advice would you give to your younger self? Now you got to keep coming up with new pieces of advice. 44:22 This is the hard part. No, I mean, the pieces of advice is you know, and I think about this more and more. It's like, Jamie, be vulnerable. Be open. One of the books I read, you know talked about being a broken, broken, open heart warrior. Be a broken open heart where we all are broken, we're not perfect, but just open your heart allow the good stuff coming in. There's a lot of great people in the world who want to help you. But it's hard to be helped when you think you know it all and you're closed off and you're and you're just resistance and And I've been like that for so long for so many years and my world changed when I just started to be open and vulnerable and saying, You know what, I don't have all the answers. And that's when so many good things started coming in to my life. And I always try to remind myself when I start to get a little bit of too much ego and remind myself a little bit of, you know, be vulnerable. It's a powerful thing. 45:22 Yeah, I love it. That is excellent advice. Jamie, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. I know this information will help so many people. So thank you so much. 45:33 Thank you, Karen. Appreciate being back. Absolutely. And 45:37 everyone. Thanks so much for tuning in. Have a great rest of your week and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.

Jul 5, 2022 • 46min

596: Michelle Hext: How to Price and Package Premium Offers that Sell Themselves

Jun 27, 2022 • 31min

595: Dr. Karlie Causey: Every Mom is an Athlete: Practical Tools for Postpartum Recovery

In this episode, sports chiropractor, certified strength and conditioning specialist, pregnancy and postpartum athleticism coach, and level 2 Crossfit coach, Dr Karlie Causey, talks about exercise during pregnancy and the postpartum period. Today, Dr. Karlie talks about planning home exercise programs and preparing athletic women for the postpartum exercise phase, and the idea that every mom is an athlete. What are some postpartum conditions or barriers to getting back to fitness? Hear about setting expectations about postpartum conditions, the story behind Jen & Keri, and get Dr Karlie's advice to her younger self, all on today's episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast. Key Takeaways "You don't need to wait to the 6-week mark to start doing what we consider rehabilitative exercises." "Tie small rehab activities into your daily life." "Just ask the patient what works best for them." "Walking in the postpartum phase is exercise and it does count." "Starting off slow to get back to where you want to go is always the right choice." "You can continue being who you were before motherhood." "If I would've had more fun, I probably would've been more successful, but also maybe it would've been a little bit of a smoother ride." More about Dr. Karlie Dr. Karlie is a sports chiropractor, a certified strength and conditioning specialist, pregnancy and postpartum athleticism coach, and a level 2 Crossfit coach. More importantly, she is a mom to two, who is ridiculously passionate about helping postpartum athletes and moms-to-be restore their bodies and move with confidence. This obsession led her to establish Jen & Keri, a postpartum activewear brand for athletes, and create her wildly successful Postpartum Restoration Plan. Beyond being a mom and a competitive fitness lover, she has spent the last 17 years of her life studying the human body and learning how it moves. Earning her doctorate of chiropractic and a master's in human biology were just a start; she doesn't plan to stop learning any time soon! She is certified in the Webster technique and BirthFit, and has served as the team Chiropractor for the Seattle Seawolves and as the local medical director for AVP Seattle. Suggested Keywords Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, Physiotherapy, Pregnancy, Postpartum, Motherhood, Exercise, Rehabilitation, Athletics, Training, Empowerment, To learn more, follow Dr. Karlie at: Website: www.karliecausey.com www.jenandkeri.com Instagram: @drkarlie @jenandkeri Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website: https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927 Read the Full Transcript Here: 00:02 Hey, Dr. Carly, welcome to the podcast. I am happy to have you on and excited to talk about exercise during pregnancy and the postpartum period. longtime listeners of this podcast will know that that this is a topic we talk about a lot here. So I'm really great to have you on to get a fresh perspective of things. So welcome. 00:23 Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited for for our chat. 00:28 So before we get into the nuts and bolts, can you give the listeners a little bit more insight into you and as to why you chose this sort of subset or niche of folks to see? 00:42 Sure, yeah, well, I've been a sports chiropractor now for Gwent, this is a will be my 12th year. So I've been doing that for a while. And I've always loved working with women in general, all walks of life, all stages of life. But when I became pregnant, I really as I feel like it happens for many, many healthcare providers, you really start to embrace the stage that you're in a little bit. So I really started to learn a lot about how how women progress through pregnancy, how they can continue working out how we can minimize, sort of, you know, things that can happen to that are detrimental after the baby comes. So I just really, really dove into that area of expertise. And it just hasn't stopped since then. So I found it very helpful to to have someone walk alongside me during my pregnancy, pelvic floor pt. And so now I try to be that person for a lot of my patients, too. 01:46 That's great. And listen, the more help we can give to women pregnant, and especially in that postpartum period, or that fourth trimester is, as it is called, I think the more people who can offer help, the better because it's not like people are not going to ever get pregnant again. So yeah, have that help. It's really important, and a lot of women just don't know. Right? They don't, I don't know what you don't know. And so if you're not in the healthcare field, there are so many questions, the body changes so much you're feeling maybe Weird Things You Didn't feel before. So getting back to exercise can be a little nerve racking. So 02:26 Oh, go ahead. No, go ahead. I think that, um, you know, it's becoming much more common to talk about this, and that women are wanting to work out more. And what's one of the benefits of social media, you know, is that we're seeing some of this stuff and able to get more info, you know, I talked to friends who had kids 10 years ago, and it just, it doesn't exist at all really, you know, and as far as like, information that was readily available. So I'm happy that, that we're trending in that direction, at least. 02:54 Yeah, absolutely. And now, let's get let's get into the nuts and bolts here now. So can you give us some practical ways to introduce rehab, introduce exercise, after giving birth, and I love the that were practical, right? Because we're talking about women who maybe don't have a whole heck of a lot of time, because they have a newborn to take care of. So I'll hand the mic over to you. 03:25 Yeah, exactly. Um, I think one of the things that I really liked to stress is that we don't need to wait until the six week mark, to start doing what we consider, you know, rehabilitative exercises. So if with an uncomplicated birth, I often have women starting, you know, day two, day three, especially with just breathing exercises. And what what I see very often is, as women are pregnant as their belly is growing, what happens a lot of times is that diaphragm really gets crammed up there. And so we start to see that they're not breathing as deeply, they're not able to belly breathe. And that diaphragm, we have to remember is the top of the quote unquote, core, right? So their pelvic floor is the bottom, we have our diaphragm on the top, and then all the muscles surrounding but I just like to remind women of that, because that muscle getting so kind of constricted throughout pregnancy is really a big deal. And really, starting on the breath work early on can be really, really helpful. So that's one thing that I really like to emphasize is, you know, at day two, day three, even if you had a C section, you can be laying in your hospital bed, doing some deep belly breathing, diaphragmatic breathing, and you're actually doing a lot more than than you think you are, you know, you're actually starting your rehab journey right there. So that's my first tip that I always like to give. I'm sure you as a PT would would agree with that, right? Like there's just so much we can start with so. So yeah, that's number one. And then the other thing that I really like to emphasize is time small rehab activities. into your daily life. So getting away from the mindset that we have to like set aside 3045 minutes an hour, whatever you used to do, or whatever you think you need to do, and say, Okay, I'm going to do 10, diaphragmatic breaths, and 10, air squats. And every time I set the baby down, or every time I change the baby's diaper, or whatever it is, you know, you can kind of pick what works for you. But I like to do that. Because then it's, it's adding in movement throughout your day, it's giving you a sense of control of like, having these pieces of rehab that you can add into your day and feel like you're working towards a goal. And it's taking away the stress of like, okay, you have to have this time set aside, everything has to go perfect, you have to have the perfect workout outfit on and your water bottle ready and the right tunes and like it just doesn't happen with a newborn baby, you know. So I think taking that stress off is another helpful tip. 05:57 Yeah, it's funny, I just did a social media post about this subject when it comes to a home exercise program that, you know, ask your patient in front of you, I because I have a woman who said, you know, I can squeeze in a couple of five to 10 minutes a day. So if you give me two exercises that I can do in between patients, she's a psychologist in between patients, I'll do it. Right. She's like, but if you say, Oh, you have to set aside, like you said, half an hour, 40 minutes to do that. She's like, it's just not gonna get done. Yeah. 06:32 Yeah, it depends on the person, right? Because then you also have people who want that 30 minutes, like, give me, I am used to working out an hour every day, whatever it is, I want my 30 minutes of things to do. And so it's yeah, it's just knowing your patient and like taking the time to ask them those questions of what's going to make them more successful. And the other thing I like is, if you've read the book, habit stacking, that's basically what I'm recommending to is, you know, tying an exercise to something else that you're already doing. So you don't have to think about when am I going to do this when you know, it's like, I always tell new moms don't tie it to brushing your teeth. Because sometimes that doesn't happen, you know, if we're being honest, sometimes doesn't happen on a on a day, but, you know, tie it to something like, okay, when you pick up the baby, change the baby's diaper or hand the baby to your partner, those kinds of things that you're you know, you're going to be doing, then that seems to be a recipe for 07:24 success, too. Yeah. And like you said, most importantly, just ask the patient what works best for them. Right? We're not them, we're not in their shoes. Maybe this woman gave birth, and she's got a ton of help at home. Right? We don't know. Or maybe it's a single mom who gave birth who doesn't have a ton of help. So always just ask, that is the easiest way to come up with a realistic and like you said, practical home exercise program. Okay, anything else, any other practical tips to introduce exercise in rehab after in those first couple of weeks or months, let's say after giving birth? 08:06 Yeah, I think another one is, you know, include the baby is always a good one, right? We tend to forget after we have a baby, depending on the activity level of the person beforehand, we tend to forget that walking is actually exercise, especially in the postpartum period. So I like to remind my patients of that I have a lot of patients who are pretty active, pretty high level of athletics prior to being pregnant. And so I have to remind them that walking in a postpartum phase is exercise, and it does count. And you should be finding time for it. Whatever that looks like with a stroller with a front pack, you know, even if you can get out for a little bit on your own is always nice, too, but not often as doable. But so I like to I like to remind people that and also that we don't necessarily need to jump into walking right away. So it's not something that you know, day 234, walking, probably still doesn't feel very comfortable, whether you have a vaginal birth or a C section. And so remembering that that's just like anything else, you want to work into that slowly, just like any other exercise program, you wouldn't jump right into lifting super heavy weights or, you know, join a competitive athletic league of some kind. So, starting slowly there, too, I think is important. Yeah. And 09:27 you hit on something that I want to kind of circle back to is, you said a lot of the women that you work with tend to be really high level athletes. I know you're also a crossfit coach, right. So you're seeing a lot of these high level, athletic women. So how do you kind of prepare them for this postpartum phase where they're not really going to be able to go back to that heavy lifting right away? Because from a psychological standpoint, I would think that would be can be quite difficult. 09:59 Yeah, it is yes, good question, I think what I tried to do is really lean into what I sort of call the negative side of it. And I try to stress to them that the things that are going to get them back to where they want to be, are really boring. And they're really slow. And they're going to be annoyed by them. But if they do them, in the short term, it's going to pay off in the long term. So starting off slow to get back to where you want to go is always always the right choice in postpartum with postpartum women. So yeah, that's, that's what I start with. And I really explained the breath work because again, that sounds like boring and sort of silly to a lot of people. And before I had a baby, I think I was less, I was less into the breath work, because I just found it so boring. And I would listen, you know, to pts and chiropractors, and, you know, ortho, all kinds of Doc's talking about how important breathwork was. And I was always like, gosh, it's so lame. But then once you feel how that diaphragm really doesn't expand like it used to, and you can't connect your breath with your body, like you use, do you realize, okay, this is actually where we have to start. And once we get this down and get this kind of Mind, Body breath connection down again, then we can start to progress from there. So yeah, I always start off people really slow. I developed a postpartum restoration plan. That's eight weeks. And it's more developed for the type of person that needs like, you know, they need their 20 to 30 minutes of like, here's my rehab, here's my, this is going to substitute for my workout for the day, you know, since I'm not doing a cross a workout or, or hit workout, or whatever they do. But I think that's been helpful to have those exercises, have kind of a game plan. And then, and then I can kind of shift those things around for people that want to like, you know, kind of fit things in here and there. So, 11:50 yeah, yeah, great advice. So really setting those expectations even before the baby comes so that they know what to do. So they know what's coming. And that's huge expectations are everything. Okay, so how about any conditions or barriers to getting back to fitness that maybe some postpartum women may experience? 12:17 Yeah, I always like to talk about this. Because there's, there's some things that people aren't really anticipating, you know, I think a lot of women during pregnancy, they sort of anticipate, okay, maybe a little bit of low back pain, maybe some pelvic pain. Even if they're thinking ahead, some upper back and neck and shoulder pain from being sort of hunched forward and nursing and that sort of thing. One thing that people don't anticipate that obviously isn't like a, you know, life ending condition or anything, but I'm sure you've heard of it, and seeing patients with it is the mommy thumb, you know, mommy wrist, however, we want to call it but that's when it really catches people by surprise. And basically what it is, is, can be pretty severe pain and either the wrist or the thumb and it comes from the forearm extensor muscles, and just from holding that baby and kind of that flexed position. So often, women are generally carrying a lot on the on the same side, if you bet shear, they end up sleeping kind of with the arm curled around the baby often, so then they can kind of get stuck in that position. And those muscles get really, really tight. So I like to tell my patients sort of warn them about that prior to giving birth and have them start on some wrist roller, you know, some eccentric, concentric strengthening of both the flexors and the extensors. And nothing crazy, you know, couple of minutes a day, four or five days a week will make a huge difference in that area. So that's one thing that I like to warn about. And if they with new moms that they're starting to feel that right away, I have them try to start some of those loading exercises, because that will, you know, if we catch it early enough, it can nip it right in the bud. But if we let it go, it can be pretty severe, you know, and people end up getting cortisone shots to take care of it and and there's a time and a place for that. But if we can take care of it beforehand, then let's do that. 14:05 Yeah, absolutely. I once had a woman who she was like, I think in her early 50s. And she started experiencing you know what they call mommy thumb or deeper veins. And hers was from they just gotten a new puppy. So her kids were grown and she's like, it feels like it does. She's like my thumb feels like it did after I had my second child. And so I look at how she's carrying this dog around the whole time. That's why 14:33 Yeah, there you go happens to the best of them, I guess. Yep, 14:36 absolutely. So even even to the moms of new moms of our furry, furry children, our little fairy children, it can still happen. So be prepared. What else what other complications or errors have you seen? 14:50 Yeah, I think one that gets a lot of you know, buzzword right now gets kind of a lot of play is talking about diastasis recti time and I'm glad I'm glad that it becomes So much more common to talk about it talk about what it is how it happens. But I think there's also a lot of fear mongering that goes on with that. Again, on social media, there's, you know, whoever can post whatever, right, so I do see a lot of stuff about about diastasis recti, what not to do. And what I always like to remind people is that it's, it's a normal, natural thing that needs to happen for that baby to grow and for the abdomen to expand. So I think that's really important to tell our patients and make sure that they know that it's supposed to happen, it's going to happen, you know, some studies show up to 100% of women have diastasis, recti, I think, like, week 36. And so, so just reiterating that, like, it's okay, it's gonna happen, we're gonna, we're gonna rehab you out of it, you know, but I think, you know, learning about it is great, and then understanding, okay, it's the separation of those abdominal muscles, what's gonna cause more stress on those? Okay, well, any of the flexion exercises, of course, so sit ups, and across the world, toes, the bar, that kind of thing. Any sort of kipping motion, anything where you're losing control, right down that linea alba down the center of the core, so are dancenter the abs. Also with heavy weights, like that's another thing that a lot of people don't anticipate as heavyweight overhead. Can Can just overstrain that tissue. And so there, I usually recommend people switch to dumbbells, you know, that's a pretty common recommendation, switch to dumbbells from a barbell, if you're using a barbell, they're just more forgiving, and allow you to, you know, move a little bit more efficiently and keep your core a little bit more stable. And then talking about in the postpartum phase, what we're going to do to rehab that. And understanding that, you know, nothing you do during pregnancy is going to, it's not going to hurt, it's not gonna hurt the baby, it's not going to hurt you, it just potentially makes it harder to rehab it later. Right. And so, we're always talking about minimizing those activities, seeing what we can substitute in, so you can still keep moving and doing what you want to do. But, but, you know, kind of playing that game of like cost benefit analysis, like, is it worth it to be doing this exercise? Is there something I could do that's a little bit safer, and just sets me up for a little bit more success down the road? So yeah, I think it's important to really talk during the pregnancy about that. And then in the postpartum phase, talk about where do we start, you know, and again, it goes back to the breathing, I hate to harp on it, but it does. And then there's some really simple diastasis recti exercises, that sort of work on engaging the transverse abdominus, you know, that big flat abdominal muscle that kind of wraps around and, and then from there, kind of retraining your core that okay, we can stay stable. And we can keep, you know, a nice pressure throughout while we start to learn to move our extremities and move a little bit of weight. And just like anything going through kind of progressive overload. But with with the core. 18:06 Yeah. And would you mind giving the listeners maybe a quick example of an exercise that you might work with a patient postpartum? Like, let's say that now, like you said, like 99% of women will have a diastasis after pregnancy? So would you mind giving a quick example? 18:27 Yeah, of course. Yeah. So there, there's tons of them out there. And it really depends on what phase of postpartum she's in. Right. So if it's really early on, like I said, we're going to work on some breathing, and we're going to have her one of the cues I really like is, when we're thinking about kind of trying to, to create tension throughout the abdomen, I like to think of kind of pulling the hip bones together, that's one that seems to work well for a lot of people. So you have them take a breath, and let's say they're lying on their back on the ground with their knees bent, have them take a big breath in, feel right on the inside of their hip bones. And then as they breathe out, they're gonna think about trying to pull those hip bones together. And that can start to help engage that transverse abdominus. And of course, you want them in like a neutral spine, in this position. And from there, then we can progress obviously, you know, with some, like heal slides with the leg lifts. Those are pretty sort of traditional exercises. I also like to incorporate when we start talking about, you know, healing through the entire Corps, I like to incorporate some glute work because that's one thing that gets missed a lot. We, we forget that the glutes are connected to the pelvic floor. So when we're trying to heal this whole barrel that is our core, it's really important to, you know, start with some really basic just even if it's glute bridges, some hip thrusts, those sort of things. I think those need to go hand in hand as we work that posterior chain along with the anterior abdomen. 19:57 Perfect. Thank you so much for those examples. Just gives people a little taste. So let's talk about Jen and Carrie. I will throw it over to you. Why don't you talk a little bit about Jen and Carrie and your company's logo? 20:16 Yeah, thank you. So my company is called Jen and Carrie, and it's sort of funny. My name is Carly, obviously, my partner my business partners name is Jess. So Jess and Carly. But whenever people get our names wrong, which is a lot they call us, they call her Jen. And they call me Carrie. And so as we were talking about what we should name the company, we were like, Jen and Carrie, they sound like you're fun mom friends that like know all the deets and have all the advice. So that's, that's our company name. And unfortunately, it's only further that probably problem a little bit because now you know, email and correspond with people. And they just immediately cost Jen and Carrie, but that's fine. We started the company after my first son. And I was, I believe it was, it was a couple months two or three months postpartum. And I was just getting back into the gym and trying to go back to CrossFit class, I'd done all my rehab, and I was really slowly kind of reintegrating, and I was complaining to her that I just hated all the nursing sports bras out there, I hate the clips, I hate the zipper, the button, like all this stuff, I just hated it. And you know, and across the class, let's say you're doing you're working with a barbell you like kind of dig the barbell into those clips with a PowerClean or a front squat or something or you're running and they pop open. It's like, you know, everyone every mom's worst nightmare. And so we started kind of looking scouring the internet for a sports bra that didn't look like a nursing sports bra, we just didn't find one. So we started kind of toying around and, and playing with a bunch of sports bras, cutting them up and, and it grew into basically the sports bra that we developed, which looks just like a regular sports bra, it has a sort of different technology that you pull up the top layer, pull down the bottom layer, so there's no clips, no zippers, none of that stuff. And really, the reason was, I just wanted to be in my workout class and feel like everyone else, like I wanted to have that hour of time for myself, I love being a new mom, I love being a nursing mom, but I just didn't feel like I needed to be advertising it to the world and my like, one hour class, I just wanted it for me. So that sort of spawned our company. And our goal is basically to just empower women to get back to whatever activities they love. And this is just one way we're doing it, we just feel if if a sports bra is gonna make you feel more comfortable and more confident in your postpartum body, and that's gonna get you moving then that we're all for it. So that's sort of how we started. 22:48 And, and the logo, every mom is an athlete. So controversial take may be right, some people may think I totally get where you're coming from, but go ahead and kind of explain that. 23:02 Yeah, so we have a couple of different reasons for are a couple of different meanings behind our logo, every mom is an athlete, we, first of all, we want women to feel like they can be whatever they want to be. So they can continue being an athlete, if they were before having kids, they can become an athlete, if they want to, you know, whatever that means for them, you know, whether it's running or Jiu Jitsu, or strongman competitions or whatever, we don't care, we just want to support you in whatever you want to do. And we also the other thing that we think about that is that being a mom is a really athletic job. So when you think about the stuff that moms do, you know, you think about the mom, carrying the car seat on one side with the toddler on the other hip with the coffee and the hand with the backpack with the all the stuff and that takes a lot of athleticism, whether you consider yourself an athlete or not. Putting your baby down in a crib is a hip hinge, right? Picking your baby up to put them into the car and the car see is is a press and a lift. So everything that we're doing, we try to we try to think about okay, what, what our moms doing and how can we support them in active wear, you know, as just one of the many ways to support them. What can we do to help support them in in this really athletic endeavor? That is motherhood? 24:21 Yeah, I love it. I think it's great. And I agree I do. I do think every mom is an athlete as well. So not so controversial, although I could see where people are coming from on that. So currently, as we start to wrap things up, what would you like the audience to take away? What are your takeaways from our discussion? 24:45 Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I think I would love for them to take away just that. You can continue being who you who you were before motherhood in whatever context that means for you And, and, you know, an entirely different version of that maybe, but like you can continue all the athletic pursuits you had before. That I want women to feel to feel empowered in the postpartum phase. And I try to do that in a lot of different ways, right? Like in my clinic, with my postpartum plan, but doing things like these to just like, talk about, here's some simple things you can do to help reintegrate your core and start building your strength back and just feel stable and confident, comfortable in your new body. That's my goal, really. And so that's our goal, Jen and Carrie, that's my goal, personally, and I think that would be my takeaway. 25:42 And where can people find you? You can list social media websites, where can they find Jen and Carrie? 25:50 Yeah, so Jen and carrie.com, it's JdN and ke ri. We're also on Instagram at Jen and Carrie. And then I'm also on Instagram at Dr. Carly, it's KR, li e. Those are probably the best places. Perfect. And 26:04 we'll have links to all of those in the show notes for today's episode over at podcast at healthy, wealthy smart.com. So if you forgot you didn't write it down. Don't worry, just hop on over. And we'll have direct links to everything. So, Carly, last question. And it's one I asked everyone knowing where you are now in your life in your career, what advice would you give to your younger self? 26:27 Yeah, I know, you asked that question. And I've been like really thinking hard about it. Um, I think I would give the sounds so cliche and sort of silly, but I think I would tell myself to have more fun, because the research shows when we're having fun is when we actually enter that flow state more right? We can talk about that for hours, I'm sure. But I think I would tell myself that because I look back and see the hard work of school, you know, education, but also in sports athletics, through high school college. I just think I if I would have had more fun, I probably would have been more successful. But also maybe, you know, maybe it would have been a little bit smoother ride. So that would be my advice. 27:09 Yeah. And, and as an entrepreneur as well, right? So sometimes, yeah, gets so wrapped up into the day to day that we're like, all stressed out and forget, like, wait a second, we got into this as a business owner, as an entrepreneur, to do things our own way. So why can't that involve having some fun every day as well? 27:31 Yeah, exactly like this. Right? We get to just sit and chat about stuff we love to chat about. This is a good time. This is fun. So yes, great point. Even in the entrepreneurial life, especially. 27:41 Yeah, especially anyway, and you're Listen, I'd love to have you come back on to talk about that aspect of, of your life as well. Because I love having successful female entrepreneurs and talk about their business and, and how they got things off the ground. Because I know people are always interested in that. So you'll have to come back. I love it. Yeah, I think you'll have to come back. And you'll have to talk about your sports Cairo business as well as the Jen and Carrie. So you know, being in that space of a retail space, which I know is not easy. So, so much to talk about. So we will put a pin in that and we will discuss that maybe in a couple of months. So Carly, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. This was great. I think you gave people a lot of practical easy tips that they can start integrating whether you're a postpartum mom or someone who cares for them. So thank you so much for coming on. 28:44 Yeah, thank you so much for having me. My pleasure. And everyone. Thanks 28:47 so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.

Jun 20, 2022 • 31min

590: Dr. Karin Gravare Silbernagel: Tendinopathy Research: Past, Present, & Future

In this episode, Associate Professor and Associate Chair at the Department of Physical Therapy at the University of Delaware, Prof Karin Grävare Silbernagel, talks about her research into tendonopathy. Today, Karin talks about her historical perspective on tendonopathy, the future of tendonopathy research, and her presentation at the WCSPT. Is pain really worrisome? Hear about tendon loading, chasing the shiny new objects, creating expectations with patients, treating different kinds of tendons, and get her valuable advice, all on today's episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast. Key Takeaways "If you just want zero pain, don't do anything, but that's really not what you want. You want to be able to move." "Sometimes in our eagerness to do good, we get a little crazy." "This is not a quick fix. This takes time." "Just because it takes longer, does not mean a tendon has poor healing." "Always have fun. If it's not fun, it's not worth doing." "It's a long life to work. Don't hurry to get to the endpoint." More about Karin Grävare Silbernagel Karin Grävare Silbernagel PT, ATC, PhD is an Associate Professor and Associate Chair at the Department of Physical Therapy, University of Delaware, Newark, DE, USA. She is a clinical scientist with a strong record of mentoring clinical scientists (primary advisor for 10 PhD student – completed, and 8 current PhD students). Her expertise is in orthopaedics and musculoskeletal injury with a focus on tendon and ligament injury. She has been a physical therapist for over 30 years and performed research for over 20 years. At University of Delaware, she is the principal investigator of the Delaware Tendon Research Group and the Delaware ACL Research Group. Her work has been directly integrated into the clinical guidelines for treatment of patients with tendon injuries. She has presented her research at numerous conferences and published in peer-reviewed journals (100+ published articles to date). She has also been invited to speak about her research at conferences nationally and internationally. As the principal investigator of Tendon Research Group at the University of Delaware, she is working to advance understanding of tendon injuries and repair so that tailored treatments can be developed. The Delaware Tendon Research Group is an interdisciplinary team focused on improving treatment outcomes for tendon injuries. Her research approach is to evaluate tendon health and recovery by quantifying tendon composition, structure, and mechanical properties, as well as patients' impairments and symptoms. Her research is funded by the NIH, Foundation for Physical Therapy, Swedish Research Council for Sport Science, and Swedish Research Council. Suggested Keywords Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, Healthcare, Physiotherapy, Research, Tendonopathy, Pain, Injuries, Treatment, WCSPT, Education, World Congress of Sports Physical Therapy To learn more, follow Karin at: Website: https://sites.udel.edu/kgs https://www.udel.edu/academics/colleges/chs/departments/pt/faculty/karin-gravare-silbernagel Twitter: @kgsilbernagel @udtendongroup Instagram: @udtendongroup Facebook: Delaware Tendon Research Group Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website: https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927 Read the Full Transcript Here: 00:03 Hi, Karen, welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy to have you on and really excited to talk about tendinopathy research and treatment and clinical application. Super excited. 00:14 Thank you. I'm equally excited to be here to talk about my favorite topic. 00:18 Yeah. And later on, we will talk about, we'll give a little sneak peek to everyone about your topic. At the fourth World Congress is sport physical therapy in Denmark happening August 26, and 27th. So for those of you who want that fun sneak peek, you'll have to wait until the end of the interview for that. Because what we're going to start with is, I really want to know, the historical perspective of tendinopathy research and how it's been translated into the clinic. So us, as we spoke, before we went on 18 years ago, you wrote your thesis. And so you've got a really great vantage point to look back on, what what tendinopathy research was, where we're at. And then later on, maybe we'll talk about where you see it going. But I'll just hand the mic over to you. So you can kind of give us that historical perspective. 01:20 Thank you. And I think that, as we spoke about, too, I feel like I'm getting older because more and more my historical perspective kind of comes in. But I think it's important when I started as a physical therapist, so I started clinically in 1990. And when I started, we had in my courses and things you know, talked about muscle, you talked about ligament injuries, and all these things. And then the tendon was just this rope that went in between the muscle and the bone. And that was kind of it. And then when I started practicing, and I worked in Baltimore, and we worked a lot with with baseball players and things, and everybody had tendinitis was super undisciplined ages, tendinitis, Achilles tendinitis. So everybody had this inflammation in the tendon that we never really talked about. So okay, I felt like I was no dummy. I learned medical terminology. So I know itis was inflammation. So obviously, they had inflammation in this tendon, because that was the name was. So I thought our treatments then really, were treating the word. So we were really trying to rest because it was acute inflammation. We tried ice we did I onto freezes and fauna, for races, and they weren't allowed to load and all these kinds of things. And surprisingly, hopefully, some patients got better anyway. But that really sparked my interest into tendon in general, like, what is this? And then later on in the 1990s, that came up more and more research, Korean and Spanish started thinking about, you know, Achilles tendon would hurt more maybe when they were loaded, ie centrically and running, so maybe we need to train that and people are starting more thinking about how do we exercise and mostly maybe the lower extremity, tendon tendinitis. And then we had more research looking at if there was inflammatory components in the tendon. So if you took out cells and things too, there wasn't actually an acute inflammation. So this idea is maybe wasn't true. And that really opened the door for if it's not an acute inflammation, what do we do? So then in the late 1990s, beyond the curve is in Standish, it was another researcher knees and we're Tolman that looked at concentric versus eccentric loading. And then Hogan offense on in Sweden to started to have patients that were waiting to get surgery and he started like, okay, we're really going to load them, you know, we got a heavy load them, because maybe that's what they need, if not an acute inflammation, and started to see people get better if you actually load in them instead of resting them. At the same time we did our I started my PhD things, too, we started looking at, okay, should it be more overload, and we used our pain monitoring model versus the standard treatment that was, you know, circulation exercises, bilateral up and down, but not really trying to load it heavy. And what we started to see those exercise program that loaded more had better effect than the more like generic, protective things kind of things, too. So that's really when things started to change. Right. So I think the historical perspective is we didn't do anything. And we started to do things. And we had these huge jump in outcomes, which is brilliant. And our studies then was, you know, we were looking more at, you know, the Sylvan angle protocol, comprehensive, we use pain monitoring model to guide but also the loading and the exercises to kind of low beyond and not be worried about the pain because if the pain wasn't acute inflammation, maybe wasn't so worrisome, and loading the tendon was painful, but that was also the treatment. So we needed something to kind of understand how much could you really load. So we started with this exercises and being able to load and having kind of achieved this kind of change. I think that was really the the ultimate thing that happened in the late night. 90s, early 2000 And it was the combination of Korean and Spanish hooking out for some did we had programs and kind of moving that forward. 05:10 And there's something that you said in that? Well, a lot of what you said in there that I just want to pull out if we can. So, one thing that you just said is, is pain worrisome? And I think that's a really, really provocative question. Because if you ask the person living with the pain, yeah. And so how, as the therapist, if we're treating someone with a tendinopathy, let's say it's an Achilles tendinopathy, and the treatment induces pain, how do we communicate to the patient? That it's not as worrisome as you think it is? 05:53 Yeah, thank you for that question. And I think that's why the pain monitoring model that we've had, and really the pain monitoring model started with roll on to me who was my advisor, in patellofemoral. Pain, and that's when we applied it. And I think from the patellofemoral, pain, we kind of seen the same path, right? Just resting, it doesn't help you need to get strong. And then we will the tendons seems to be the same thing. And I think the pain monitoring model has been a lot of discussion is, you know, we go up to five is okay, and those things, to tell you the truth, I really don't care if it's five, or four, or whatever, I think it's that communication to the patient and communication that waiting for this pain to become zero, if that's the goal. And what I say to everybody was my lecture, and you might have heard that too, I'm like, Well, if that's the goal, I can tell the patient come in here, lie down on my nice little plants here in the office, you lie there, and I'm gonna go get a cup of coffee. And when I come back, you don't have any pain. So I've treated your pain, right. So I kind of start, I think, with the education. So the point is, if you just want zero pain, don't do anything. But that's really not what you want, you want to be able to move. So if you want to be able to move, you also need to get this tissue to tolerate more loading. And in order to do that, we actually need to load it. So we recover. So I spent a lot of time kind of explaining talking about this thing, so that there might be some pain when we're loading it, or without load, you're not getting anywhere. And what happened to a lot of people, they had some pain, the rest of it did last and they tried to do something a pain and they just D decline. And I talk a lot about hardening your tissues, right? This is loading, hardening of tissues. So the conversation is my goal with treatment is to increase the tolerance of your tissue over time, while keeping your pain level the same. So that's kind of the thing. So so your pain level, I'm fine with that you're not going to rupture, which is good thing to say for Achilles tendon rupture. That's like the big catastrophe. If that's not an issue, then we can follow it to and then we have the discussion. You know, above five, it's not good, or I don't know, you've seen Twitter, sometimes Twitter, that I use five, right? And I, I really don't care. I think the point is, there is a point of pain when pain goes from, it's uncomfortable to Ouch, I don't want it to be Ouch, I want it to be in five seems to be around in that round, right? And people can understand the difference in that. And it's, you know, you have the other conversation with the people that says, But I have really high pain tolerance. So this might not work for me. Well, you know, it's subjective. So I always tell them absolutely works even better for people like you. So, you know, sometimes maybe I'm a little silly, but that's. So I think that's kind of the point of really using it. So for me, the pain monitoring model is a way for discussing it and then using it. Some people feel like it's focusing too much on the pain, I actually think is does the opposite, right? Because it removes the worry. So I'm going to put a number on it. And it's just a number and everything else. And then we use training diary. So I use training diaries, you write down, you know, morning pain, worst, lowest everything else that you do. And then if I have three or four weeks, we can start comparing, and then people actually start seeing the numbers change with the activity, or the number stays the same. So I'm using it more of a of a descriptor, because if you just ask somebody you have pain, it's like they're gonna ask them what they did earlier. Right? And none of us remember, we don't remember how much pain was when we not painful. And so that's kind of how we using it in my description. 09:23 Yeah, I think thank you for that. I think that's great. And that also kind of answered my next question is how much load? How much can you load? How much load isn't? Is is enough? How much is too much? And I think you kind of answered that within that. But you want to expand on that a little bit or I feel Yeah, so I think 09:39 I think that's within the pain monitoring model too. Right? We're looking at that. But then you also have knowledge based on how the cells responds how the tendon response and I think that's where the next thing in the history perspective is now we're starting to see you know, which protocol is better. So now they're comparing Silvernail and offer zones or East centric loading, and it's all these. And really when you compare them, it's not that big of a difference. Right? The heavy slow resistance. I just say that you know who canal for some was in northern Sweden, he trained twice a day. I'm from Gothenburg and middle, we do once a day. And then you go down to Denmark, they did the three times a week for heavy slow, right? So Danish people are lazier than you know. But I think the point is, when you're looking at the data, actually, the outcomes are not that difference. You know, there might be some, you know, we can always argue that we're more satisfied with this. But when you're looking at the mechanical properties and things, you don't see that big of a difference anymore. And I think because I think you reached a saturation point, right? We've done no loading to loading now everybody does good. And I think for us as PTS now we're trying to manipulate more and more in that little realm, that for everybody, we might not see it when we do big studies comparing one group to the other, because I think we need to talk about individualized instead of precision rehabilitation and things too. So I think kind of that's where we're getting at. And they've been great studies coming on from unstuffy Agha Gordon Denmark from her thesis looking at moderate versus heavy and patellar tendon. And so I think that for the loading, you need to load them, you need to use the pain monitoring model, we need to do the progressive loading. But I as a PT would less worry about if I if you did two sets too little or five pounds to less, I think that's less of an issue. 11:29 Yeah. And when you said individual, I actually just wrote that down individualized care as you were speaking, because if all of the different protocols have basically the same outcome, then does it come down to what can the patient do, given the constraints of their life? Or their schedule? Or you know, their job? So do you have someone who can do something three times a day? Or do you have does this person might do better three times a week with heavy slow resistance, or, you know, it really depends on what the patient can do. Because the best protocol, I would assume is the one that patient is compliant with. 12:12 And I think you and I have been around way too long for this too, right? So because, you know, when you started, when you were at least when I started when I was young, right? You were so excited for every exercise. So I guess kept on adding to my poor patients like removing something No, no, that's a really good exercise. And you're adding. And what I'm getting to is that if I can get you to do something consistent with two or three exercises, I'm much better off giving you two or three exercises that you do consistently, than trying to think that I'm going to give you a ton of things. And I have patients now that are you know, they they come back, they come back every four or five weeks and see me or they send me an email and they do their exercise, because I told them to do for Achilles like bilateral three sets of 15. And then do unilateral three sets of 15. And do that for your rest of your life. Like you're brushing your teeth, and I'm like, you could probably go down to doing them less, or you can do heavier in the gym. And some people don't go to the gym, they don't want to do that. So you kind of modify it to kind of get some of the exercises there too. So I think that I think the biggest key is that you need to load you need to do things. And then instead of getting too hyped up for all the specifics, I think that's really where we're moving forward. And I had I had a lady that you know, recently with insertional tendinopathy that had been to the doctor been to all these other clinics, and there's thrown all these things on or didn't get better. And then it was massaging it. And it was like dry needling and the instrument assisted and those kinds of things to me, she was just getting worse. And I'm like, Well, I just think you should do these three exercises once a day. And she's doing and she's like, I'm walking. I'm not limping, you know. So sometimes in our eagerness to do good, I think we get a little crazy. 13:49 Yeah, and that brings me to the next thing I wanted to talk about. And it's sort of the shiny new object syndrome that a lot of people will get. And we spoke a little bit about this before going on the air. And I said a lot of it is sort of the theatrics around different kinds of shiny new objects. So how how would you address that to say younger clinicians? In you know, obviously talking about tendinopathy 14:14 Yeah, so I think that that one thing and it's still hard, I mean, I teach Doctor physical therapy students and then they go out and they completely forgot what I said. Right? So I think there's certain things everybody wants to go to clinical course and learn something more hands on and something more specific but I think that to me, the attitude is what we really try to teach them is like what tissue is that? How does that tissue respond right? To start understanding the underlying mechanisms because then you have then you have an understanding to build the other thing on instead of not having the understanding and just thinking that you doing things and then then you might be changing the shiny objects without thinking about the mechanism. So I'm very much a mechanism person in to try to think about why would we do it, but you all No need to realize that just putting the hand on somebody is very, very strong treatment effect. That's not, that's the same as listening to somebody and paying attention. And I have a colleague Now Greg Hicks has done finishing a trial looking at strengthening specifically for low back and an older in the control group who got hot, hot pack and massage as the placebo control. And they did really well too, right. So even we have mechanism, we should not be afraid of doing things that might help the patient in that sense. But we the explanations and things for what you're doing, you got to be really careful for right. And I think that I have a great effect on my patients, because I think I have a good program. We know what we're doing. I know it works. But I'm also not under estimating that if you can Google me, you're going to get better just by coming seeing me because he's going to assume that at least I know what I'm doing. So, you know, I utilize that effect too. So you just need to thinking about what we're doing. And I'm very scared of chasing the shiny objects for the wrong reason, because maybe that shiny object would be really good for a specific reason. And if we throw it on everything, we've lost, what is good for? 16:12 Yeah, if you beat me to it, I was just gonna say also people probably come to you knowing your background, and the work that you do. So they're coming in, like primed, like, this is she is the expert, I'm in the right hands. I know, this is gonna, you know, this is a person who's going to help me and that's a huge part of the rehab process is that trust that you have in the practitioner and that therapeutic relationship, but it also sounds like you're giving realistic expectations, and describing realistic expectations to your patients, which, again, takes time. And I know a lot of therapists like why only have a half an hour with them, how can I how can I spend 15 or 20 minutes talking to them? So what would you say to that kind of a comment? 17:02 Yeah, and I think that's another thing that happens over the years. Like, I feel like I do less and talk more, but that might be just my personality, too. But, but I think that that's without that understanding, when you start that therapeutic alliance or understanding why you're, as you're doing, you're not going to get anywhere. And patients and especially patients with tendon injuries and tendinopathies. I mean, it takes six months to a year, I tell them that right away, it takes six months a year, you can do what I say, I'm pretty sure you're gonna get really well, you might not be 100%, I'm gonna get you definitely to 80 or 90%. If you don't do what I say, we can meet here in a year again, it doesn't bother me. Right? So it's handy because I think when I was younger, I tried to take on the problem and I I'm handing it back right away. I'm like, doesn't bother me if he doesn't do don't do it, you know, you can just come back to understanding and I think the other part from from the young clinicians were tendon injuries is the biggest thing is, this is not a quick fix. This takes time. And what you see a lot with the younger clinicians or maybe younger, my younger self, too, is like your to do treatment for two, three weeks, and they're not there yet. And then you get worried. And when you get worried the patient get worried. And then you start changing things. And then then they get more worried because you don't seem like you know what you're doing right, you know, it's setting the expectations. This is what you're going to do. It's not any cool exercises, this is going to take time, and having the training diaries that I follow over time and they say, You know what, I don't think much of happening. I'm like, Well, you weren't here three months ago, you could only walk one mile, but the pain of five. And now you're jogging for miles. I'm like, I think that's a pretty good improvement. Right? So having those to kind of working on and I think that's really, really important. 18:45 Yeah, and my next question is, is are all tendons created equal? So we sort of alluded to an Achilles tendon and a patellar tendon or we can talk about, you know, a golfer's elbow or tennis elbow. So when we're talking about all these different tendons, are they all created equal? And can we kind of throw the same treatments at each one, regardless of the part of the body? 19:10 Yeah, so again, it's kind of the same thing that attendance is a tendon in certain tendons structures, right? But all tendons are meant to connect muscle to bone and allow for mobility and that help us however, the design of those tendons are also meant for what they're good for. Right? So the Achilles tendon is the biggest tendon in the body because it's generates a lot of force and helps us move it move. patellar tendon is a little bit different isn't big, but it also tries to help change the angle of force around the knees. So then we put a patella and so all of a sudden we have compression and tendons are not very good for compression. The rotator cuff is more of a flatter tendon, that has a lot of curvature and the compression there is a problem right? So the flatter tendon combines more. Spread the force versus around tendon they kill As tenderness and then you're thinking about tendons in the hand, right, they are really long and thin, to be able to manipulate the fingers really gently build up the force gently. So they have different functions. And soon as you have different function, the tendon has to be slightly designed differently, which makes if it's designed differently, the treatment or the loading might be needed to be very differently. So I think one of the biggest thing is a tendon is really good for tensile forces, but not a good for compression forces. So for example, the rotator cuff, when you're talking about these overload tears is usually an inferior kind of compression that slowly degenerates, a tear. And the Achilles tendon is nothing like that at all. It's a high load, that kind of happen because you pull it apart just like Play Doh, you pull it apart from two different ends, and it kind of can rupture. So I think those are really, really important. What we also see as the lower extremity tendons seem to respond fairly similar. They're not as high in central sensitization indexes and don't have those things versus differently when you're looking at upper extremity tended to So there are definitely differences. So you need to kind of thinking about the basics, that it's not probably an acute inflammation that we need to treat it and then you need to start thinking about what does this tendon do? Is it being compressed as a flat? What are the other structures? Right? So Achilles tendon, you know, that is Achilles tendon. The real problem is, it's right there. There's not much else. That's why I study it, because it's easy to study versus the rotator cuff. We talk less about rotator cuff tendinopathy. And we talk more about shoulder pain, right? More because we not so sure. Is it purely the tendon? That's the problem and other things 21:40 add a lot more structures around it than just the Achilles tendon. That can adjust the Achilles. Sorry, but yeah, yeah. Yeah. So the little, a little more complicated area of the body will say, yes, yeah. So, you know, I think it's great to sort of look at that historical perspective. And I love that you kind of talked about where we are now, where do you see research moving towards, in the tendinopathy? field? 22:12 So now we're getting little bit into what I'm going to talk about in Denmark, too. But I think, yes, so one of the big things that we're really working on, is that, okay, I felt like we kind of reached this point, we're doing really well with everybody. But again, you know, if you look at average, with a big group, we're still not 100% On average, right? Some people aren't 100% recovered, versus some people are not. And why is that and we can't manipulate the treatment anymore. I need to figure out who do I treat how right we've been there in other areas, too. So really, what we're doing in our in our research now is really trying to use various statistical models and larger group data to really first evaluate, we'll be starting to call a tendon health, I'm really proposing that tendinopathy might be more of a biological disease, more like you're talking about knee osteoarthritis, there used to be just wear and tear, and now it's a biological disease, I think tendinopathy need to be considered the same way. And the reason I say that is because it's not just that the tendons structure had changed, or that you have pain, there's so many other variables related to it, like you have personal factors too, like BMI or diabetes affects them in differently cholesterol do so you have the metabolic factors, you have the personal factors, right. And you have, you know, the fear factors, and all these kinds of things play a role. So we call that our tendon health model. We really started with function, structure, pain and symptom, psychosocial factors. And then I realized it was a person too. So we actually have personal factors. And based on that we're trying to figure out are there different? Because you can't, we can in clinic, you can treat every person in singular, right? But, but we need to also to have more of the precision health understand what we do in the health system understanding are the various groupings. So who should we treat how to be very efficient. And that's some of the research that we're working on now. It'd be looked at my PhD students try and handle and found like, we have different groups, we have what we call activity dominant, which might be the one so we see a lot of them, the runner's active, they don't have a lot of symptoms, they don't have a lot of deficits, tenant is not that bad. versus group that we've called structure dominant, that are heavier, they have really horrible looking tendon, that poor function. And then we have a group that we call psychosocial dominant, that maybe the worst are not the best, but they're people with higher fear, decreasing function, but the tendon might not be so bad. And when we started thinking about that, well, now you can understand maybe how you can treat them a little differently. And then we can start looking at how should we treat them based on looking at randomized controlled trials because from a researcher perspective, if I threw all of those in, and I do the same treatment, some of them might benefit a lot and some of them don't and then the treatment is seared out right. There is no difference. But then I lost Ask the benefit for the ones that might benefit and I lost learning from the ones that didn't benefit the needed something else. 25:07 Fascinating. And you're going to be talking about this in Denmark. 25:12 Absolutely. And we have new data, how it changes over time and all those kinds of things. Yeah, well 25:18 don't give it all away. Now. Will we want people to go to Denmark to see you present this live? Demo? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it sounds fascinating. I love the idea of a tendon health structure. And I love how it's it is, seems to be evolving to be more about the whole person, not just someone with a tendon injury. Yeah. Right. Because like you said, it could be like, two people can have the same injury. It could be one could be a postmenopausal woman who has the same injury as a young 30 Something male runner, maybe they both have an Achilles tendinopathy. But are you going to treat them exactly the same? 26:01 Yeah. And I think that's when we need to start thinking about this, some of the programs are maybe the same, but how do you modify them? And what are the expectations? And then what are the other things that you can add on to that, to really make sure that we get more people up to 100%, and really try to focus on them. And as a researcher, sometimes those things get lost. And that makes that's concerning to me. 26:26 But I for one cannot wait to hear that talk in Denmark. Now. Before we start wrapping things up here, what advice maybe give three tips, if you want to give more or less whatever you want. But what would you give to what tips would you give to clinicians who are treating patients with tendinopathy? Injuries? I don't know if I want to say injuries, if that's quite the word, but diagnoses let's say, so what are your top tips? 26:59 So my top tip is to kind of think about what that it is the structure and that structure responds differently than muscle structure and bone structure to thinking about it from that from the tissue level when you're designing the treatment program. And I think the number one is tendon takes longer to recover than other tissues. So setting that expectations right away. I mean, it's a clear indication when you're looking at hamstring injuries, is it purely muscle or is it more proximal with a tendon is clearly evidence to show that it takes longer. So if you have that expectation and sitting down to explain, but just because it takes longer does not mean a tendon has poor healing, it has very adequate healing is just healing that takes a little longer. And sometimes I even explain that that is a good thing. Because a tendon can last you for a very long time. Like for marathon runners, the Achilles tendon rebounds you so you can run a whole marathon, if your muscle was doing that, you'd be fatigued way earlier, and you wouldn't be able to do it. So the low metabolism is beneficial. But this is the rehab, it's going to take your time. So that's one of my biggest thing and taking time to kind of thinking through that. The other piece of advice is do not panic. And my clinician in our clinic, they tell me back to others what I say because I always tell the patient right away, you're going to get better. This is going to take time, and you're going to have setbacks. And I want to tell clinicians that to the patients are going to have setbacks, they're going to come but don't panic when they have setbacks. You know, it just is what it is. And if you set the expectations right away, the patient's going to come in and have a setback. Now they're like, Yeah, I have my setback. But you told me I would eventually have it right? Instead of not expecting them because then we react on a dime, oh, they're worse today. What am I going to do? And what am I to change? Like, no, this is part of life that goes up, it goes down and moving. So I think those two things, and along with really using the pain monitoring model, and training diaries are my key things. 29:04 Great advice. And I love that do not panic, because they know when you're panicking, yes, right? The eye you know, they see it in your face. And like you said, you start throwing everything in the kitchen sink on there. And they're like, Well, wait a second, what just happened here? I thought you said I could just do this. But I always tell patients like this is not a linear journey. It's not like you're going up a roller coaster and it's going to be linear and perfect. Like it's going to go up, it's going to dip down, it's going to come up maybe dip down but not as much and then you're gonna go up again and you know, it's a little bit more of a squiggly line and that's okay. And people really do appreciate that because setting expectations is paramount. I always feel like if I do nothing else, if they hear nothing else, at least they have an idea of what to expect. So that it's not crazy. Just 29:59 And I think the training diary to me, I use it for any patient for anything, I think that was really key too, because that calms all of us down. Let's see, let's go back here five weeks, wherever we're at what you were doing. And then we can see the pattern. And I even had one person that gave me like an Excel spreadsheet, and a color coded the pain. And if you looked over like a year, you can see that red and orange decrease and the green was increased, you know what I mean? Those are the patterns that you want to see. And it's hard to see those in your daily life. So that's why I think that's really important. 30:32 Yeah, that is a dedicated patient. Yes, 30:35 I do. But yeah, 30:38 yes, well, right. Right. But well, this was great. Where can people find you? If they have questions? Maybe you're on social media? Where can people find you? 30:51 I am on social media at kg silver Nagel, I think I'm on Twitter, is the main one is that but I also run the Delaware tendon research group, and attend them on a ligament research group. So on Twitter, we also have the UD tendon group. We're also on Facebook, and we're also on Instagram. And I'm easily found the University of Delaware and Department of Physical Therapy to please feel free to reach out and connect with us, you know, on the social media and those kinds of things that we're doing. And I'm very excited to discuss these clinical things. 31:26 And if you don't mind, can we talk a little bit about the Delaware attending group because you guys have some projects that you're working on to do you want to tell the listeners about those projects? In case you know, you need recruiting or you need volunteers? So go ahead. 31:42 Yes, we always need volunteers. So we actually have we have a lot of ongoing studies, but one of the big ones that NIH funded right now is we're looking at comparing men and women with Achilles tendinopathy. So we're up to 145 recruited patients out of 200, we had a little dip around COVID. So we're actually providing treatment for anybody that is around the Delaware Philadelphia area, please feel free to reach out or send your patients. We're also have ACL studies ongoing. One of the big ones also been relating to tendon is looking at the recovery from patellar tendon grafts to see how they change over time, how does that tend to actually recover? And could that if the doesn't recover fully, can that explain some of the deficits that we do see their ACLs injuries to we're also hoping to soon start more of looking at insertional, Achilles tendinopathy, with treatments we have. And one study with shockwave treatment, we have studies that we're hoping to start now looking more at metabolic factors, and getting a little blood draws and those things. So we have on our website with all of those things going on. So if anybody's interested, please feel free to reach out or look at our website. 32:53 Perfect. And we'll have a link to that at podcast at healthy, wealthy smart.com under this episode, so one click and we'll take you right there. So before we end, I have one question. Question I asked everyone and knowing where you are now in your life and in your career, what advice would you give to your younger self, and you can pick which ever age of your younger self you 33:14 would like. So I'm going to pick myself before I even went to PT school, because one of my mantras is to always have fun, and I will stick to that now. And I'll stick to that younger because if it's not fun, it's not worth doing, even if it's research and those things. So do anything that's fun. But I was did not want to go to school in Sweden, I wanted to do sports medicine wanted to go to the US. But I was very worried that if I didn't get in, when I was 20 that I wasn't going to go to PT school because it took four years and then I would be too old when I graduated before I was ready. So I wasn't going to go luckily I got in and I stayed on. So I think to to my younger self. It's a really long working life. So just keep on having fun and plugging along and learning more things. And I have taken the really long path to academia with the clinician for many years and doing those kinds of things. So that I'm happy for so I'm glad I got in and didn't say I wasn't going to do it. Because who cares if I was 2425? 34:14 Yeah, and that's so young. Yes, but isn't it funny when you're 1819 20? You're like, Oh, forget it. I'll be an old person by then 25 behind the eight ball when of course, now that were a little older, we can look back on that and be like, Oh my God. Yes. And 34:34 I mean, it's like it's, it's a long life to work. Don't hurry to get to the endpoint, right? Enjoy it get experienced during that time, because as I tell our students, I've had a lot of fun during my years and worked with sports workers, clinician travel, research, academia, you know, you got to have fun. 34:53 Absolutely. Well, and on that note, I want to thank you for coming on the podcast and having such a fun conversations. Well, thank you so much. And everyone, if you want to get a chance to see current speak live, then join us at the fourth World Congress, a sports physical therapy, it is in Denmark and August 26 and 27th of this year. And not only will you get to see speakers like yourself, but there's also going to be great networking, activity breaks, things like yoga, or running or walking tours, paddle paddleboarding, all sorts of fun stuff. So it's again, not going to be quite your average conference, and a lot of it is going to be clinically focused and clinically based. So I think that's really important. I think a lot of times people think, Oh, we go to these conferences, it's going to be researchers just talking about their research and how's that going to affect me clinically? Well, this conference is all about that. So I think, right? Absolutely agree. Yeah. So come join us in Denmark. Again, thank you so much for coming on. And everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.

May 2, 2022 • 29min

589: Prof Michael Rathleff: Barriers Between the Research and Implementation

In this episode, Aalborg University Professor, Prof Michael Rathleff, talks about his role at the upcoming WCSPT. Today, Michael talks about how he organized the congress, creating tools for clinicians to educate their patients, and his research on overuse injuries in adolescents. What are the barriers between the research and implementation in practice? Hear about the mobile health industry, exciting events at the congress, and get his advice to his younger self, all on today's episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast. Key Takeaways "The clinicians out there have a hard time both finding the evidence, appraising the evidence, and understanding [if it's] good or bad science." "There's a lot a clinician can do outside of a one-on-one interaction with a patient." "It's our role to understand the needs of the individual patient, then make up something that really meets those needs." "It's okay to say no. You have to make sure to say yes to the right things." More about Michael Rathleff Prof Michael Rathleff coordinates the musculoskeletal research program at the Research Unit for General Practice in Aalborg. The research programme is cross-disciplinary and includes researchers with a background in general practice, rheumatology, orthopaedic surgery, physiotherapy, sports science, health economics and human‐centered informatics. He is the head of the research group OptiYouth at the Research Unit for General Practice. Their aim is to improve the health and function of adolescents through research. Suggested Keywords Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, Healthcare, Physiotherapy, Sports, Research, Injuries, WCSPT, Education, IFSPT Fourth World Congress of Sports Physical Therapy To learn more, follow Michael at: Website: https://vbn.aau.dk/en/persons/130816 Research: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Michael-Rathleff Twitter: @michaelrathleff Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website: https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927 Read the Full Transcript Here: 00:02 Hello, Professor Ratliff, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today to talk a little bit more about your role at the fourth World Congress is sports, physical therapy in Denmark, August 26, to the 27th. So, as we were talking, before we went on the air, we were saying, man, you're wearing a bunch of hats during this Congress, one of which is part of the organizing committee. So my first question to you is, as a member of the Organising Committee, what were your goals? And what are you hoping to achieve with this Congress? 00:35 I think my role is primarily within the scientific committee. And one of the things we discussed very, very early on was this, like, you know, when you go for a conference, you go up to a conference, you hear a bunch of interesting talks, and you feel like, I'm motivated, I'm listening, I'm taking in new things. But then Monday morning, when you see the next patient, it's not always that all the interesting stuff that you saw, is actually applicable to my patient Monday morning. So we wanted to try and emphasize more. How can we use this conference as a way to translate science into practice? So the whole program and the like, the presentations will be more about clinical applicability, and less about more p values and research methodology. So not that the research is not sound, but there'll be more focused on how can we actually apply it in the context that were working. That's why also, we had the main title of translating research into practice, which I think will be hopefully a cornerstone that people will see, well, if there's really interesting talk about, it could be overuse injuries in kids, which will be a lecture that I'm having, then they'll also be a practical workshop afterwards to kind of use that what's been presented, and then really drill down on how we can use it in in clinical practice. So the goal is to, to get people to reflect in your network, but also take a lot of the things and think, Wow, this is something that I can use next Monday for clinical practice. 02:09 And aside from a lot of lectures and talks, you've also got in informatics competition. And so could you explain that a little bit and why you decided to bring that into the Congress? 02:23 Yeah, so this was a major, not a debate, but an interesting discussion on how we can even in the early phases of the conference, when people submit an abstract, make sure that the abstract can actually also reach more end users target audiences for that case. So we decided that people actually had to submit an infographic together with their the abstract. So normally, you send in like, 250 words, for a conference, but for this conference, we wanted them to submit the abstract, but also the visual infographic to go along with Olympic Well, am I making an infographic that is tailored to patient? Is that a patient aid that I'm trying to make? Is it something that's aimed but other researchers? Or is it clinicians, so they have to tick off? Which box Am I infographic actually intended for? So when the audience or the participants come and join the conference, they can actually take these infographics for those that want to print them they can use in the clinic afterwards, just another layer of trying to make some of this research more easily communicated to the audience, but also, the things that can be used in clinical practice, like some of the people have submitted abstract, have some really, really nice infographics that I expect will be printed and hang on, on a few clinic doors around the world afterwards, I hope. 03:48 And when it comes to dissemination of research and information from the clinician, to the patient, or even to the wider public, where do you think clinicians and researchers get stuck? Like where is the disconnect between that dissemination of information as we the information as we see, and by the time it gets to the consumer or to let's say, a mass media outlet? It's like, what happened? 04:15 Yeah, that's a big a big question. Because it's almost like why are we not better at implementing new research into our clinical practice? And I think there's heaps of different barriers. We've we've done a couple of studies, something new was also in the pipeline where we look specific, get the official context, and we can see that this barriers in terms of understanding the research, that's actually one of the major barriers that the clinicians out there have a really hard time both finding the evidence, appraising the evidence, and also actually understanding is this good or bad science. And then you have the whole time constraints on a clinical practice because who's going to pay you to sit and use two hours On reading this paper, and remember, this is just one paper on ACL injuries. But in my clinical practice, I see a gazillion different different things. So how am I going to keep up with the with the evidence? Is it intended that I'm reading original literature? Or how am I going to keep up with it? So I think there's a lot of different barriers. But at least one of the ways I think we can overcome some of these barriers is that researchers climb out of the ivory tower and think of other ways that we can communicate, research, evidence synthesis, it could be infographics, it could be sort of like decision age for clinical practice, at least that's one of the routes we're taking in terms of also the talk I'm giving at the conference that we're trying to think of, Can we somehow develop AIDS that will support clinical practice something that scene but the physiotherapist something that's aimed at the patient, that will sort of make it easier to deliver evidence based practice? So we've done one, one tool that's being developed at the moment is called the Makhni, which is something that can assist clinicians in the diagnosis, the communication of how do you communicate to kids about chronic knee pain? How do I make sure that they have the right expectation for what my management can be? And how can we engage in a shared decision making process. And we have a few other things in the pipeline as well, where we want to, to build something, build something practical that you can take in use in clinical practice to to support you in delivering good quality care, because just publishing papers is not going to change clinical practice, I think, 06:45 yeah, and publishing papers, which are sometimes wonderful papers. But if they're not getting out to the clinicians, they're certainly not going to get out to the patients and to people, sort of the mass population. 07:02 I completely agree. It's a bigger discussion, I'm really focused on how to reach clinicians, because I see the clinicians as the entry point to delivering care to patients and parents and, and the surrounding surrounding community. But if you think of, like wider public health interventions, we have the same problem as well. And also we create this sort of like, No, this inequality in healthcare, but that's another 07:30 line, although there can of worms. Yeah, we could do a whole series of podcasts on that. Yeah, yeah. And I agree with you that it needs to come from the clinician. So creating these tools to help clinicians better educate their patients, which in turn really becomes their community. Because there's a lot a clinician can do outside of just a one on one interaction with the patient. And so having the right tools can make a big difference. 07:58 Like in, if you look at a patient that comes to you for an ACL injury, or long standing musculoskeletal complaint, they're going to spend maybe 0.1% of their time together with you and 99.9%, they're out on their own. And I think it's important that we when we're one on one with them, sort of like make them develop the competencies so they can do the right decisions for their health in the 99.9% of the time that they're out there alone, when they're not with with us, I completely agree with you that there's a lot of things we can do to make them more competent in thriving despite of knee pain, or shoulder pain or whatever it might, it might be. And I think that's one of the most important tasks, I think, for us as clinicians is to think about the everyday lives they have to live when they leave us and say see you next time. 08:51 Yeah, and to be able to clearly communicate whatever their diagnosis by might be, or exercise program or, or any number of, of 10s of 1000s of bio psychosocial impacts that are happening with this person. Because oftentimes, and I know I've been guilty of this in the past, I'm sure other therapists would agree that they've this has happened to them as well as you explain everything to the patient, and then they come back and it's, they got nothing zero. And it might be because you're not disseminating the information to them in a way that's helpful for them or in a way that's conducive with their learning style. So having different tools, like you said, maybe it's an infographic that the patient can look at and be like, Oh, I get it now. So having a lot of variety makes a huge difference. 09:48 And I think you touched on a super important point there that patients are very different, that they have different learning styles, they have different needs. And I think it's our role to enlist Send the needs of the individual patient and make up something that really meets those needs. So more about listening, asking questions and less about thinking that we have the solution to it, because I think within musculoskeletal health or care, whatever we call it, some clinicians would use their words to communicate a message that might be good for some other patients would prefer to have a folder or leaflet. Others would say, I want a phone, I want an app on my phone, something that's like learning on demand, because at least that's something we see regularly. Now that we have the older population that wants a piece of paper, we have the younger population that wants to have something that they can sort of like, rely on when they're out there on their own one advice on how do I manage this challenging situation to get some good advice when you're not there? When I'm all on my own? So, so different? 10:57 Yeah, and I love those examples. I use apps quite frequently. And I had a patient just the other day say, Oh, my husband put this, the app that that you use, because I was giving her PDFs, and she's like, Oh, my husband put the app on my phone. Now it's so much easier. So now I know exactly what to do if I have five minutes in my day. So it just depends. 11:21 And I think the whole like mobile health industry, there's a lot of potential there. But I also see, at least from a Danish context, that there's a lot of apps that is very limited. It's not not developed on a sound evidence base, or it's just sort of like a container of videos with exercises. And I think there's a huge potential in like thinking of how can we do more with this? How can we make sure that it's not just the delivery vehicle for a new exercise, but it's actually the delivery vehicle for improving the competencies for self management for individuals? I think there's, yeah, I'm looking forward to the next few years to see how this whole field develops. Because I think there's really big potential in this. 12:12 Yeah, not like you're not doing enough already. But you know, maybe you've just got your next project now. Like, you're not busy enough already. So as we, as you alluded to a few minutes ago, you've got a couple of different talks you're chairing, so you've got a lot going on at the World Congress. So do you want to break down, give maybe a little sneak peek, you don't have to give it all away, we want people to go to the conference to listen to your talks. But if you want to break down, maybe take a one or two of your topics that you'll be speaking on, and I give us a sneak peek. 12:48 I think the talk that will be most interesting for me to deliver and hopefully also to listen to is is the talk that I'm giving on overuse injuries in adolescence, because I think it's we haven't had a lot of like conferences in the past couple of years. So it will be one of these talks will be meaty in terms of of new date, and some of the things I'm most interested go out and present is all the qualitative research we've done on understanding adolescents and their parents, in terms of what are the challenges they experience? How can we help them and also, we've done a lot of qualitative works on what are the challenges that face us experience when dealing with kids with long standing pain complaints, we've developed some new tools that can sort of like, help this process to improve care for these young people. And I really look forward trying to Yeah, to hear what people think of, of our ideas and, and the practical tools that we've that we've developed. So that's at least one of the talks, that's going to be quite interesting, hopefully, also, we're going to actually have the data from our 10 year follow up of so I have a cohort that I started during my PhD. They were like 504 kids with with knee pain. And now I follow them prospectively for 10 years. And this time period, I've gotten a bit more gray hair and gray beard. But this wealth of data that comes from following more than 500 kids for 10 years with chronic knee pain is going to be really, really interesting. And we're going to be finished with that. So I'm also giving a sneak peek on unpublished data on the long term prognosis of adolescent knee pain and at the conference. So that's going to be the world premiere for for that big data set as well. 14:36 Amazing. And as you're talking about going through some of the qualitative research that you've done, and you had mentioned, there were some challenges from the physio side and from the child side in the patient and the child's parents side. Can you give us maybe one challenge that kind of stuck out to you that was like, boy, this is really a challenge that is maybe one of the biggest impediments in working with this population. 15:06 I think I think there's multiple one thing that I'm really interested in these in this moment is the whole level of like diagnostic uncertainty and kids, because one of the things we've understood is that if the kids and the parents don't really understand why they have knee pain, what's the name of the knee pain, it becomes this cause of them seeking care around the healthcare system on who can actually help me who can explain my pain. So so at the moment, we're trying to do a lot of things on how we can reduce this, what would you call diagnostic uncertainty and provide credible explanations to the kids and then trying to develop credible explanation for both kids and parents? That's actually not an easy task, because what is a credible explanation of what Patellofemoral Pain is when we don't have a good understanding of the underlying pathophysiology? So there, we're doing a lot of work on combining both clinical expertise, what the patient needs, what we know from the literature, and then we're trying to solve, iterate and test these credible explanations with the kids. And yeah, at the conference, we'll have the first draft of these, what we call credible explanation. So that's going to be at least one barrier one challenge, I hope that some of the practical tools we've developed can actually help 16:25 i for 1am, looking forward to that, because there is it is so challenging when you're working with children, adolescents, and their parents who are sort of call it doctor shopping, you know, where you're, like you said, you're going around to multiple different practitioners, just with their fingers crossed, hoping that someone can explain why their child is in pain or not performing are not able to, you know, be a part of their peer group or, or or engage in what normal kids would would generally do. Exactly. Yeah. Oh, I'm definitely looking forward to that. So what give us one other sneak peek? Because I know you've got the, you're also chairing a talk on the first day. But what else I shouldn't say I don't want to put words in your mouth. What else? Are you looking forward to even maybe if it's not your talk, are you looking forward to maybe some other presentations, 17:26 I'm actually looking forward to to the competitions we have as well, because I've had a sneak peek of some of the research that's been submitted as abstracts, and the quality is super high. So both the oral presentations but also the presentation that the best infographics because they'll also get time to actually rip on the big screen and present their infographic. And I look forward to see how people can communicate the messages from these amazing infographics. And I think these two competitions are going to be to be a blast and going to be really, really fun to, to look at. And amazing research as well. So I really look forward to the two events as well. And then of course, oh no, go ahead. No, I was just talking about look forward to meeting with friends and new friends and be out talking to people once again in beautiful new ball in Denmark in the middle of summer. It's hard to be Denmark in the summer. We don't have a lot of good weather, but Denmark in August is just brilliant. 18:31 Yes, I've only been there in February. So I am definitely looking forward to to Denmark and August as well. Because I've only been there for sports Congress when it's a little chilly and a little damp. So summer sounds just perfect. And I've one more question. Just kind of piggybacking off of your comments on the amazing research within these competitions. And since you know you have been in the research field, let's say for a decade plus right getting your PhD a decade ago. How have you seen physio research change and morph over the past decade? Have you seen just it better research coming from specifically from the physio world? 19:20 I think it's the first time someone said it's actually more than a decade. So, but that gives me a time perspective. But yeah, I've actually seen that. My perception is that physiotherapy research in general but also sports physiotherapy research went from being published in smaller journals we published in our own journals to now there's multiple example of sport fishers performing really, really nice trials that have reached the best medical journals that have informed clinical practice. So I think we see this both there's more good research Basically out there. And I also see that we've moved from, like a biomechanical paradigm to being more user a patient center, we see more qualitative research, we see that physiotherapist, sport physiotherapist, they sort of have a larger breadth of different research designs, they used to tackle the research. I think, like looking even at the ACL injuries, if you go back 10 years in time, looking at the very biomechanically oriented research that was primarily also joined by orthopedic surgeons to a large extent. Now, today where fishers have done amazing research, they understand all the the fear of reentry, they're trying to do very broad rehabilitation programs, ensuring that people don't return to sport too rapidly. And and also understanding why they shouldn't return back to his board now developing tools that you can use when you sit with a patient to try and and educate them on what are the phases, we need to go through the next nine to 12 months before you can return to sport and so on. So I think I'm just impressed by, by the research. And when I see the even the younger people in my group now, they start at a completely different level when they start their PhD compared to what we did. So I can only imagine that the quality is going to improve over the years as well, because they're much more talented, they're still hard working. And they have a larger evidence base to sort of like stand on. And they already from the beginning, see the benefit of these interdisciplinary collaborations with the whole medical field and who else is is relevant to include in these collaborations? So yeah, the future is bright. I see. Yeah, 21:50 I would agree with that. And now as we kind of start to wrap things up here, where can people find you? So websites, social media, tell the people where you're at. 22:04 So I think if you just type in my name on Google, there'll be a university profile at the very top where you can see all my contact information. Otherwise, just feel free to reach out on LinkedIn or Twitter, search for my name. And you'll find me, I try to be quite rapid and respond to the direct messages when, when possible, at least 22:25 perfect. And we'll have all the links to that in the show notes at podcast at healthy, wealthy smart.com. So you can just go there, click on it'll take you right to all of your links. So is there anything that you want to kind of leave the listeners with when it comes to the world congresses, sports physiotherapy or physical therapy, sorry. 22:52 Be careful not to miss it, it's going to be one of these conferences with a magical blend of practical application of signs, it's going to be a terrific program in terms of possibilities to to network and engage in physical activity, whatever it's running, or mountain biking, and with an amazing conference dinner as well. So I think it's, so this would come to be one of one of the highlights for me this year. So and I think the whole atmosphere around this conference is also that if you come there, as a clinician, you don't know anybody, that people will be open and welcoming and happy to engage in conversation. There's no speakers, that wouldn't be super happy to grab a beer or walk to discuss some of the ideas that's been presented at the conference. So I think it's going to be quite, quite good. 23:45 Yeah. So come with an open mind come with a lot of questions and come with your workout clothes. Is is what I'm hearing? 23:56 Yes, definitely. Definitely. 23:59 And final question, and it's one that I asked everyone is knowing where you are now in your life and in your career? What advice would you give to your younger self, and you can pick whatever time period your younger self is. 24:13 So I think in if I had to give myself one advice when I was in my sort of like, MIT Ph. D, time coming towards the end, I would say to myself, that it's okay to say no, you have to make sure to say yes to the right things because it's very easy to say yes to everything. And then you create these peak stress periods for yourself that would prohibit you from from doing things that is value being with friends or family and so on. You don't have to say yes to everything because there will be multiple opportunities afterwards. So practice in saying no and do it in a in a polite way. People actually have a lot of respect for people that say, No, I don't have a time or I'm I'm going to invest my time on this because this is what I really think is going to change the field. And this is my vision. So So young Michael, please please practice in saying no. 25:11 I love that advice. Thank you so much. So Michael, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. And again, just a reminder, I know we've said this before, but the World Congress is sports, physical therapy, we'll be in Denmark, August 26 and 27th of this year 2022. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast and thank you for all of your hard work and getting making this conference the best it can be. 25:36 Thank you, Karen, thank you for the invitation to the podcast. 25:39 Absolutely. And everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.

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