Post-Growth Australia Podcast

For the final episode of season 5, PGAP welcomes special guest John Seed (OAM). John is founder and director of Australia’s Rainforest Information Centre and is an Australian figurehead for the Deep Ecology Movement. A long time hero of both co-hosts Mark and Michael, John combines decades of successful environmental activism with an emphasis toward re-establishing a deep emotional connection with the natural world. It is the disconnection from nature which has resulted in the endless growth paradigm which is tearing apart our societies and our planet. John shares his thoughts on why system change is not enough and why a fundamental shift in our collective psychology is needed to get us out of this mess. In addition to John’s other accolades, he is also an accomplished musician. It was a pleasure to play his song ‘The World Bank Song’ on PGAP. The song was written in 1990 for a protest against the World Bank in Washington DC and the message is arguably even more relevant today. The video may be seen on YouTube and John’s music may also be heard on SoundCloud. You can find more about the RAINFOREST INFORMATION CENTRE HERE. Or about DEEP ECOLOGY HERE. More links to John’s work include articles on THE RELIGION OF ECONOMICS, THE RIGHTS OF NATURE, and CLIMATE GRIEF. More information regarding the Atlas network may be read HERE and HERE. You can find out more about HOLISTIC ACTIVISM HERE (founded by co-host Mark Allen). Both Mark and Michael Bayliss have been busy over the last couple of months. Mark has written A Holistic Activism Approach to the Population Issue for Medium. Michael was recently a guest presenter on the Rethinking Sustainability Podcast, on the topic of Growth and the Parasitic Economy.. Mark has written for Independent Australia: Sydney asbestos crisis the tip of the iceberg . EcoVoice published Mark's article Climate Activism and the Crisis of Language . Last but not least, the PGAP Blog has been updated with a new post, Building a house in the 2020s (and other fun things!). At PGAP, we like to give a shout out to the work of our past guests. The highly anticipated De Gruyter Degrowth Handbook has finally been released! Inside, contributors, including a forward by Jason Hickel, explore various facets of degrowth, delving into its intersections with Marxism, feminism, architecture, and issues related to the global south. A standout chapter, penned by our former podcast guest Alex Baumann and co-author Samuel Alexander, shines a light on the initial privatisation of capitalism, namely land privatisation. While the Handbook itself is behind a paywall, an excellent article in The Conversation gives a great overview. PGAP will be on break for two months before we return for season six in a couple of months. PGAP has now been on the air for nearly four years and we are so pleased that community support for our grassroots program has gone from strength to strength across the five seasons. We are looking forward to many more stellar guests in season six and we will also be experimenting with 'mini-episodes' for returning guests. Until then, we invite you to RATE AND REVIEW PGAP, SUBSCRIBE, or CONTACT US with our easy to fill out contact form. Please share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. Until season six, until then! (All views, opinions, and past and present legacies of PGAP guests do not necessarily reflect those of PGAP of Sustainable Population Australia who are the kind supporters of this podcast.)Special Guest: John Seed.

For this short bonus episode of PGAP, we welcome back Martin Tye, Social Media and Promotions Coordinator of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA). Martin shares with us the details of SPA's new campaign 'Say NO to a Big Australia!' He also gives us a heads up on SPA's public forum, being held in Adelaide on April 20th, "From housing crisis to eco-crisis: Why Australia's Population Growth is Unsustainable," including keynote speakers Leith van Onselen and Dr Jane O'Sullivan. Please consider signing SPA's position statement, calling for a sustainable population. Find out more about the campaign here. Will you be in Adelaide on the 20th of April? Then do come along to SPA's free public forum on Australia's Ponzi population experiment - and what we can do about it. For those not in Adelaide, the event will be live streamed. PGAP has interviewed both keynote speakers, including Leith van Onselen from Macrobusiness, and Jane O'Sullivan, in past episodes. Martin Tye was also interviewed in the very first episode of PGAP. Listen here for a walk down history lane! SPA are the primary supporters of Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP). While this podcast aims to invite broad perspectives on the Degrowth movement, we believe that a stable or slowly declining populations, both domestically and globally, are crucial components of the post-growth transition. If you want to find out more about where your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen sit on population, you can read more HERE and HERE. All opinions, views and past and current legacies of our guests are strictly their own, and do not always reflect the views of PGAP. PGAP have one last episode in the wings with a VERY special guest (no spoilers!) before we take a short break. Stay tuned! In the meantime, please share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. Subscribe to PGAP HERE or contact us with your thoughts and ideas HERE. Special Guest: Martin Tye.

As this episode goes to air, a brand-new documentary on Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) is touring Australia and PGAP has been given the incredible opportunity to speak to USA based director of "Finding the Money", Maren Poitras. Maren has just embarked on a screening tour of South East Australia alongside Stephanie Kelton, who is a leading proponent of the MMT movement and author of ‘The Deficit Myth’. (Australian Poster) During this revealing interview, Maren discusses the importance of MMT and the journey that making a feature length documentary on this important topic has taken her on. The conversation also explores why it is crucial that MMT goes hand in hand with post growth narratives and why it is important to combine the two in order to create an economic system that works within limits to growth. (Maren Poitras) ‘Finding The Money’ was filmed and produced in the USA with a focus around Stephanie Kelton’s advocacy in that country. However, Australia is the first country in the world to host screenings in advance of the documentary’s official release in the USA later this year. This is testament to the growing popularity of MMT in Australia and its many homegrown advocates of economic reform. These include institutions such as Modern Money Lab and Economic Reform Australia as well as author Steve Williams - all have been previous guests on PGAP. You can find the dates of the Australian screening tour below and if you are in the right place at the right time, we strongly encourage that you go and see it. Not only is it a brilliant documentary but you will also have the opportunity to meet and greet Stephanie Kelton and Maren Poitras. CLICK HERE to book your tickets. Post-Growth Australia Podcast is made with the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia. We refer to SPA’s discussion paper in this interview: "Silver Tsunami or Silver Lining: Why We Should Not Fear an Ageing Population". Any views, opinions or legacy of our guests do not necessarily reflect those of PGAP or SPA. Your PGAP co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen are very pleased and humbled by the excellent response to the podcasts that we have made so far this year. We have had more listens than ever before, so a big thank you to our ever-growing community! We truly believe that "Finding the Money" and the conversations in this episode are very important and worth supporting, so we would be very grateful if you could share this episode within your networks. Also, please feel free to contact us at any time with your feedback and thoughts. You can find out more about your hosts here and here.Special Guest: Maren Poitras.

Timothée Parrique, an economist at Lund University, dives into the misconceptions of green growth and advocates for degrowth economics. He critiques the idea of economic decoupling, showing the lack of scientific support behind it. Timothée passionately discusses his vision for a post-growth world that emphasizes social equity and reduced advertising. He reflects on the recent Beyond Growth conference and challenges outdated views on demography, arguing for a cooperative, need-focused economy instead.

Happy new 2024! For this very special episode of Post-Growth Australia Podcast, we interview Menang Noongar educator Larry Blight on site at the Yakamia forest, one of the few remnant pieces of bushland in Albany, which is currently under threat from overdevelopment (of course!) Larry discusses the environmental and cultural significance of the Yakamia forest. We then delve into a broader conversation across many issues such as overdevelopment, colonisation, the perils of neoliberalism and population policy. Larry incorporates his local knowledge and his connection to Boodja (Land) in what is a very deep and insightful conversation. From the Kirrah Mia website: “Larry is a Menang Man, who is passionate about his Boodja (Land) and all things on it. Larry has extensive knowledge of local bushfoods, medicines, fauna, local stories and traditions. Larry has been passing on this knowledge through cross-cultural awareness workshops, Aboriginal tourism, school educational workshops and more.” This episode was recorded on site at the Yakamia forest with our trusty portable recorder. Being immersed within the bushland allowed for a more immersive conversation to unfold. However, it also happened to be a windy day with quite a bit of ambient sound, affecting the quality of the recording. We did our best to throw all the production tricks to sharpen the recording, and we would like to thank Andrew Skeoch and Crystal Marketing for their additional assistance. As with our previous episode at the NENA conference, there is always a trade off with the intimacy of being 'live' with the unpredictable nature of sound recording, so we acknowledge the ‘rawness’ of this episode. To find out more about the Yakamia forest, you may be interested in our Season Four episode “A Tribute to Community Groups fighting Big Overdevelopment in WA” where we interview Annabel Paully from the Friends of Yakamia. For more First Nations’ perspective on Degrowth, you may be interested in Dr Mary Graham’s address in the episode, “PGAP live at the NENA conference: Life After Capitalism.” We also interviewed Prof. Anne Poelina in the Season Two episode: “Saving the Martuwarra-Fitzroy river”. This episode was recorded on traditional Menang Noongar country, on lands that were never ceded and we would like to offer our respect to elders past, present and emerging. We strongly encourage you to share this very important episode with your friends, family and networks and would love it if you could take the time to rate and review us on Apple Podcast or your favourite podcast platform. Degrowth is about community and we encourage a community approach to the direction of future PGAP episodes! Contact us anytime with your feedback, suggestions and ideas. PGAP is made possible by the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia. SPA has been active in including many diverse perspectives on the sometimes-contentious issue of population, including those from the Global South, as well as first generation migrant and First Nation's perspectives. More information can be found on SPA's 'diversity and social inclusion' page. If you would like to support SPA in saying 'NO to a big Australia' in 2024, please consider adding your signature to their position statement. More information about your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen can be viewed here and here.Special Guest: Larry Blight.

PGAP recently had the pleasure of travelling to Canberra to record live at the 2023 New Economy Network Australia (NENA) conference: ‘Life after Capitalism’. We recorded a collage of presentions and interviews with conferences attendees into order to showcase nearly two hours of Post-Growth goodness. This episode includes well-known names such as Tom Ballard, Donnie MacLurcan, Anitra Nelson and Gareth Hughes. (graphic courtesy of NENA) PGAP acknowledges the Ngunnawal, First Custodians of the country where the recordings of this conference took place. We pay respect to Elders past, present and emerging, and acknowledge that colonisation continues in the form of growth- based capitalism that privatises, pillages and pours concrete over lands that were never ceded. This is one aspect of an ongoing colonial mindset that pre-dates growth based capitalism. PGAP will never be corporatised, so it relies upon word of mouth to spread the post-growth message. So please, if you get the opportunity, share this and other episodes within your networks. You can rate and review us on Apple Podcast or on your favourite podcast platform. You can also Contact us with your feedback, thoughts, questions as well as ideas for future guests or episode topics. If you choose to subscribe, that helps us a lot and it means that we can better keep you in the loop. (PGAP making a presence at the NENA conference) This is an absolute epic of an episode! It was recorded live across meeting rooms, hallways, scout halls and outdoors, so the quality of the recordings are variable. We would like to thank Andrew Skeoch for his additional editing support for this episode. Attendees at the NENA conference. What a fantastic, game changing group of future leaders, thinkers and healers. Photo courtesy of Rod Taylor We present to you our esteemed presenters and interviewees, in order of appearance (with time stamp): Uncle Wally: ‘Welcome to Country’ ( 00:04:52 to 00: 13: 35) Dr Mary Graham, UQ and Kombu-merri person: ‘Indigenous perspectives and “Relationist Economics” (00: 13: 36 to 00: 25: 59) Tim Hollo, Executive Director of The Green Institute, ‘What’s wrong with capitalism anyway?’ (00: 27: 24 to 00: 34: 11) Gareth Hughes, Wellbeing Economy Alliance NZ: ‘Will “wellbeing economies” save us?’ (00: 34: 27 to 00: 42: 25) (For more on wellbeing economics, you may be interested in PGAP’s interview with Katherine Trebeck, who also spoke at the NENA conference) Janet Salisbury, Women’s Climate Congress: Interview (00: 42: 41 to 00: 50: 51) Donnie MacLurcan, Post-Growth Institute: “What might a degrowth and post-growth future look like?” ( 00: 52: 02 to 00: 57: 28) (PGI’s Robert Wanalo was interviewed by PGAP in season 1) Anitra Nelson, Author of ‘Exploring Degrowth’: “What could our lives look like after capitalism?” ( 00: 57: 44 to 01: 02: 23) (Anitra was a past guest on PGAP which can be listened to here) Anthony Gleeson, ‘The Sustainable Hour’ radio program: Interview ( 01: 02: 24 to 01: 08: 38) Tom Ballard, Comedian and author of ‘I Millennial’: Conference Dinner Speaker ( 01: 10: 58 to 01: 32: 34) Andrew Skeoch, nature sound recordist at 'Listening Earth': Interview followed by session “Deep listening to nature reveals how life cooperates, rather than competes” (01: 34: 15 to end). PGAP would like to give a huge Huzzah to conference and NENA convenor Dr Michelle Maloney. She is so wonderful that she has been interviewed TWICE on PGAP for her work with NENA and AELA. Listen HERE and HERE. Do consider getting involved with NENA, and be part of the grassroots groundswell for systemic change. All opinions recorded at the conference, including any past or future work or legacies of speakers and interviewees, are exclusively theirs and do not always reflect the views of position of PGAP or SPA, who support this podcast. PGAP host Michael Bayliss also presented at the NENA conference, based on a report that he co-wrote for SPA on the housing crisis. The work of Michael Bayliss can be explored at his website here. Until next episode folks, until then....

On this episode of Post-Growth Australia Podcast, we are joined by Jon Doust - professional writer, speaker, comedian, performer, activist and trouble maker. Not only does Jon live in the same town as your PGAP hosts (Albany), he went to the same school as Michael. In this episode, we exchange notes on our formative years, which for Jon are documented in his trilogy of books ‘Boy on a Wire’, ‘Return Ticket’ and ‘To the Highlands.’ This provides a springboard for an in-depth discussion around the role that formative education plays in creating the psychologies of modern society and how addressing many of our existential crises requires some deep unlearning and relearning. This interview was recorded on the eve of Australia’s Voice Referendum, to which Jon worked tirelessly for the Yes campaign. Jon was also running for the Albany council elections as a progressive voice in a typically conservative part of the world. This lead to a sprawling discussion across many topics, issues and amusing anecdotes, where Jon’s mercurial skills as a storyteller truly came to the fore. Also evident throughout the interview is Jon’s love and dedication to the First Nations Noongar Menang community. Further, as fellow activists, we reflect on our losses and how moving ahead requires the art of learning how to be a better loser (and continue on anyway with even more dedication!) You can find out more about Jon at his Blog or at Fremantle Press. Michael Bayliss was joined by co-host Mark Allen for the introduction and outro discussions to this episode, recorded after the results of the Voice referendum. As proud ‘Yes’ supporters, we reflected with sadness at the results. We observed the phenomena of people voting No as a ‘protest’ to the government and reached the conclusion that there are far better ways to ‘voice’ your protest against the government – punching downwards is not the solution. We were pleased to note that the Albany Council now has a progressive councillor following the election, so that is one silver lining. In the outro, we compare notes on our personal education experiences and how these have been an impediment with regards to gaining the wisdom (or even the practical skills) to deal with the multiple human induced crises that lie ahead. We make it very clear that we are knocking THE SYSTEM and the vested interests that lie behind the veil, NOT individual teachers, many of whom are heroes in our eyes and work uphill everyday against the crumbling system. You can find out more about your hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen. All the MANY opinions raised during this episode are individually held by your hosts and our esteemed guest Jon Doust and may not always reflect the opinions of our supporters. Enough about us – what are your thoughts on all the above? Let them be known by contacting PGAP at our Contact Page. If you liked this episode (or even if you didn’t!) rate and review us on Apple Podcast or your favourite platform. Share PGAP with your friends, family and networks and grow the post-growth conversation! This episode was recorded on the traditional lands of the Menang Noongar people that were never ceded. We continue to plunder, concrete and colonise their lands, without consultation, in the name of growth. We pay respect to all elders past, present and emerging and hope that we can learn from their wisdom in navigating the turbulent times ahead as we enter deeper intothe decade of consequence.Special Guest: Jon Doust.

We are certainly living in precarious times. We have transgressed six out of nine planetary boundaries (with more to come). The gap between the ‘haves’ and ‘have nots’ is beginning to look less like a gap and more like a chasm. The threat of wide-scale war looms large. How do we get ourselves out of this mess before Mad Max becomes a documentary? Luckily for us, Mark Diesendorf and Rod Taylor have co-authored a new book “The Path to a Sustainable Civilisation: Technological, Socioeconomic and Political Change.” Not only does this book unpack several of the main existential challenges facing humanity, it details many proactive solutions that we can all undertake to create a better future. In this episode of Post-Growth Australia Podcast, Mark Diesendorf kindly steps into the microphone to summarise the key arguments detailed in “The Path of a Sustainable Civilisation.” Dr Mark Diesendorf is Honorary Associate Professor in the Environment & Society Group, School of Humanities & Languages at UNSW Sydney. He is also Senior Editor for Energy of the international journal Global Sustainability. Originally trained as a physicist, he became a Principal Research Scientist in CSIRO, and then broadened out into interdisciplinary energy and sustainability research. From 1996 to 2001 he was Professor of Environmental Science and Founding Director of the Institute for Sustainable Futures at University of Technology Sydney. PGAP listeners will be familiar with many of the challenges and solutions raised by Mark, in this interview, that are expanded on within the very concise and easy to read pages of “The Path to a Sustainable Civilisation”. These include the mechanisms of state capture and how they undermine democracy, the critical role that population sustainability contributes toward any planned Degrowth transition and how planned Degrowth may be facilitated with the sensible application of Modern Monetary Theory (MMT). MMT is a favourite topic on PGAP and we highly recommend listening to our episode: “MMT for Activism with Gabrielle Bond”. You may also recognise Mark's co-author, Rod Taylor, who also contributed to the book “Sustainability and the New Economics” with Steve Williams, whom PGAP interviewed last year. Rod Taylor was also interviewed on PGAP for his own book “10 Journeys on a Fragile Planet.” We are certainly well read on this podcast! PGAP is supported by Sustainable Population Australia. All views and perspectives from our esteemed guests, including current and past legacies, are their own and do not always reflect the positions held by PGAP or SPA. Your PGAP co-hosts, Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen, have been very impressed by the amount of contact and feedback that we have been receiving from our listeners and supporters. Thank you so much! Let’s build this community. Rate and review this and other episodes of PGAP on Apple Podcast or your favourite platform and feel free to share among your networks. Contact us anytime with your feedback, thoughts and ideas. As Mark Diesendorf is a very industrious generator of wisdom, we are honoured to share a large collection of his work below, followed by the time stamp for this episode. Happy further reading! Mark’s website: https://research.unsw.edu.au/people/associate-professor-mark-diesendorf Mark’s Interview with The Sustainable Hour Podcast. Mark and co-host Rod Taylor spoke at an online Australia Earth Law Alliance online event for Earth Laws month. The presentation may be seen at the AELA YouTube channel here. Yin Paradies and John Seed, who also spoke during Earth Laws month, were discusssed during the introduction of this episode. These talks may be watched here and here. Mark wrote for The Conversation: Saving humanity: here’s a radical approach to building a sustainable and just society New book: Mark Diesendorf & Rod Taylor (2023). The Path to a Sustainable Civilisation: Technological, Socioeconomic and Political Change. Palgrave Macmillan. eBook ISBN 978-981-99-0663-5; print ISBN 978-981-99-0662-8. See https://sustainablecivilisation.com/. Order from https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-981-99-0663-5 Latest papers Mark Diesendorf & Steven Hail (2022). Funding of the energy transition by monetary sovereign countries. Energies, volume 15, paper number 5908. https://doi.org/10.3390/en15165908 (Can be downloaded free of charge) Mark Diesendorf (2022). Scenarios for the rapid phase-out of fossil fuels in Australia in the absence of CO2 removal. Australasian Journal of Environmental Management https://doi.org/10.1080/14486563.2022.2108514 Mark Diesendorf (2022.) Scenarios for mitigating CO2 emissions from energy supply in the absence of CO2 removal. Climate Policy 22:882-896. https://doi.org/10.1080/14693062.2022.2061407 Mark Diesendorf, David Roser & Haydn Washington (2023). Analyzing the nuclear weapons proliferation risk posed by a mature fusion technology and economy. Energies 16:1123. https://doi.org/10.3390/en16031123 . Time Stamp 0:00:00 - 0:11:18 Introduction 0:11:19 - 1:08:02 Interview with Mark Diesendorf 1:08:03 - 1:16:23 OutroSpecial Guest: Dr Mark Diesendorf.

It is not every day that urban planning and societal collapse are discussed in the same conversation. But for Kate Booth – activist academic and Associate Professor at the University of Tasmania, both are critical and interlinked issues. In this very educational episode, Kate talks us through the Insurgent Planning movement as well as the Just Collapse movement. At a time when Australia’s Federal Government is scrambling to build 1.2 million new homes while the recent climate data suggests that an ecological collapse is imminent, these are difficult but necessary conversations that we need to be having. Kate Booth is Associate Professor of Human Geography, and activist academic, in the School of Geography, Planning and Spatial Sciences at the University of Tasmania. Her teaching and research addresses socio-ecological inequity in the context of rapid and unprecedented global change, and she leads a ‘Critical Collapse Studies’ research program underpinned by her expertise on insurance in a changing climate. She also teaches urban and regional planning. You can read more about Kate here. Just Collapse is an activist platform dedicated to socio-ecological justice in face of inevitable and irreversible global collapse. You can find out more about Just Collapse here. You can also read more about insurgent planning here or watch a video that Kate produced here. An interview with Kate and Tristan Sykes is also available from Collapse Club on YouTube. Kate is a regular contributor on the Town Planning Rebellion (TPR) Facebook Group, which is administered and moderated by your PGAP co-hosts, Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss. Liked this episode and want to hear more? In 2021, PGAP recorded three episodes on the road in Tasmania, with many special guests, which can be listened to here, here and here. You may also like our episode on Retrosuburbia with David Holgren. Help the world to degrow by helping PGAP to grow! Share this episode with your family and friends and rate and review us on Apple Podcast. Contact us with your feedback and suggestions for future topics or guests. PGAP is made possible through the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia. The opinions of PGAP guests, including any legacies past or present, are exclusively theirs and do not always reflect the views of PGAP or SPA.Special Guest: Kate Booth.

Welcome to the season five premiere of Post-Growth Australia Podcast. What better way to launch our new season than with Rob Dietz, co-host of Crazy Town Podcast, perhaps the standard bearer of degrowth themed podcasts. (Rob Dietz). Rob is the Programs Director of Post Carbon Institute (PCI). A brilliant public speaker and story teller, Rob talks us through the journey of Crazy Town Podcast, which he co-hosts with colleagues Asher Miller and Jason Bradford. He also discusses the other initiatives and campaigns run by PCI, in addition to his unique vision of a Post-Growth future. (Crazy Town's Logo). We asked Rob to share two of his favourite Crazy Town Podcast Episodes that are linked below. We do warn you, that once you start listening to Crazy Town, you might not be able to stop! Episode 34. Fear of Death and Climate Denial, or… the Story of Wolverine and the Screaming Mole of Doom Episode 60. Chillin' and Killin': How Air Conditioning Has Altered Human Behavior and the Environment Rob would also like us to share PCI’s report: “Welcome to the Great Unraveling: Navigating the Polycrisis of Environmental and Social Breakdown.” It is quality reading and we are pleased that it is making ripples. The song of choice for this episode is ‘Safe Room’ from host Michael Bayliss’ band ‘Shock Octopus.’ First released in 2011, its apocalyptic tale – of a world that has become so impacted that even the billionaires who created the mess in the first place have no safe place to hide – is becoming all the more prophetic a decade later. Michael and co-host Mark have had our music recently played on the Freedom of Species radio show, here and here respectively. (The iconic cover of the 'Safe Room' single). We are also excited by the fact that Rob presented at an online Degrowth conference run by New Economy Network Australia (NENA). PGAP has interviewed NENA’s convenor Michelle Maloney twice. The video of Rob’s talk can be watched here. Your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen are pleased to be back for season five of Post-Growth Australia Podcast. We hope you like the cosmetic changes of this episode (graphics courtesy of Squeaky Pea Designs with photos from Photographica). We are looking forward to another season of quality guests and topics. We have not been idle during our break. You may, for example wish to have a gander at two of our recent published articles, including: “Economic reform vital to solving housing crisis” - Mark Allen for Independent Australia “POPULATION GROWTH AND WEALTH INEQUALITY ARE MORE ENTWINED THAN WE THOUGHT: HERE’S WHY” – Michael Bayliss for Population Media Center blog. We hit our record monthly listens twice in season four and with your word of mouth we can extend our outreach even further for season five. Share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. Rate and review us on Apple podcast or your favourite platform. Don’t hesitate to contact us anytime with your feedback, thoughts or suggestions. Post-Growth Australia Podcast is made possible from the support of Sustainable Population Australia. Any opinions, views and legacies past and present from our guests are theirs only and may not always reflect that of PGAP or SPA. Episode Timestamp: 0:00:00 to 0:09:31 - Interview sound bye and introduction with Mark Allen 0:09:31 to 0:56:31 - Interview with Rob Dietz, hosted by Michael Bayliss 0:56:32 to 0:59:41 - Music, ‘Safe Room’ by ‘Shock Octopus’. 0:59:42 to 1:05:02 – Outro with Mark AllenSpecial Guest: Rob Dietz.