Post-Growth Australia Podcast

In this final episode for Season Seven, co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss catch up for a short, freewheeling conversation to wrap up a busy year. In June 2025, Michael and Mark participated in a community consultation weekend on the future development of North Albany. Michael later presented his observations at the Albany Community Environment Centre forum ahead of the City of Albany elections in September. His presentation explained to prospective councillors and fellow environmentalists why urban planning matters for both social wellbeing and ecological resilience. It also invited attendees to reflect upon the long‑term consequences of unchecked growth for the city’s future. For this episode, Michael reads out this talk for posterity, which can also be read on the PGAP blog HERE. This prompts an open discussion with Mark around issues such as: Albany’s growth pains and the impact this has for future planning, housing security and the natural environment; How face to face community consultation, including Citizen Assemblies, can encourage cooperative debate and discussion, in contrast to the divisiveness which is so common in online or social media debates; How holistic approaches to debate can ensure that everyone can find common ground and navigate difference of opinion across many critical issues, including overpopulation; The importance of including post-growth thinking into our conversations, to encourage people to think about the bigger picture and act proactively as well as reactively; Finding the time to be in a space outside of language and narrative. An article, written by Michael in 2023, argues why the pursuit of growth makes this all the more difficult. Link HERE; Election fatigue in which it seems to be a case of the trees voting for the axe at federal, state and local levels, and: Finally, on a darkly humours note, we imagine what kind of apocalypse we face when world coffee stocks run out. As we draw a close to season seven, we reflect on a very good year for PGAP. This has been our longest season to date, beginning as far back as November 2024, when we broadcasted the radio documentary ‘Rethinking Sustainability’. Since then, Season Seven has covered many topics across fifteen episodes, such as steady state economics, techno dystopia, regenerative agriculture and a panel discussion on Degrowth at the University of New South Wales. This year, PGAP was recognised by the site MillionPodcasts as being in the top ten global podcasts that covers overpopulation and in the top fifty podcasts on Sustainable Living. This is very encouraging news to hear as we take a break over the festive season and plan for season eight. While we are on our break, we encourage you to share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. We are grateful to anyone who takes the time to review and rate us on Apple Podcasts or your favourite podcast platform. We are also appreciative when people take the time to contact us directly with feedback and suggestions for future episode topics or guests. Many of our interviews this season came about from community suggestions or from prospective guests who emailed us. Reaching out is so important, not just for building connection but for helping us to broaden our range of episode topics and guests. Last, but certainly not least, we extend our gratitude to Sustainable Population Australia (SPA), which has supported PGAP since its inception in July 2020. This season, we also bid farewell to John Coulter, a long-time leader of SPA and the wider post-growth movement in Australia who sadly passed away last year. We welcomed SPA’s new patron, Anne Poelina, and spoke with Isaac Kabongo, the Ugandan CEO of the Ecological Christian Organisation, who has represented SPA at COP events. You can learn more about SPA here.

Did you know that in 2024/2025, 3.4 million solar panels were decommissioned? Did you also know that up to 99% of solar panel material is recyclable? In this episode, we welcome Darren Johannesen, Executive General Manager of Sustainability at Smart Energy Council. We discuss the recent success of Smart Energy Council’s Solar PV Recycling and Products Stewardship Program as an example of urban mining and go on to examine how this could be rolled out on a national scale. The Solar PV Recycling and Products Stewardship Program is one working example of how a ‘circular economy model’ would work. Darren however cautions that circular economy models are limited in light of the loss in energy and resources that are implicit with recycling. We at PGAP argue that this is all the more reason why a circular based economy must go hand in hand with a post-growth economic system. Finally, Darren shares his personal vision for a possible post-growth future and what it might look like. Co-host Michael Bayliss is joined by Mark Allen for the introduction and outro for this episode, where they reflect on this great initiative from Smart Energy Council. They also discuss the imperative for a planned degrowth transition in a world that is drowning under ever growing piles of aggregate consumer waste. Mark and Michael also discuss some recent developments and current affairs as ‘post-growth’ and ‘collapse’ enters mainstream discourse. Did you enjoy this episode? Feel free to show your appreciation by rating and review PGAP on Apple Podcast or your favourite platform. Or write to us through our contact form with your feedback and any ideas you might have for future episodes. We also appreciate guest recommendations! Please feel free to share this and other episodes of PGAP within your networks. We rely exclusively on word of mouth. PGAP is made possible with the support of Sustainable Population Australia. Please check out SPA on their website and consider signing their position statement or even signing-up as a supporter or member. Want to explorer deeper into the themes raises by this episode? Here are some links: The following webinars explore the Smart Energy Council ‘Solar PV Recycling and Products Stewardship Program’ in detail: Solar Recycling & Material End Markets – Stewardship Webinar I Smart Energy Council slides here Webinar Renewable Sector Stewardship Enablers slides here Solar Panel Reuse I Stewardship Webinar Series - Smart Energy Council slides here The episode refers to two past episodes of PGAP. These include: “Save our Soils: Regenerative Farming with Louis De Jaeger” and; “Working Toward a Circular Economy Future in Australia with Phil Jones”. One of our previous guests, Kate Booth from Just Collapse, was a panellist in the ABC debate: “We’re F'ed! It’s too late to avoid civilisational collapse." Kate Booth was special guest on the PGAP episode “Planning for a Just Collapse”. You can find more about the work of PGAP co-hosts Mark Allen HERE and Michael Bayliss HERE. The opinions of PGAP guests, including any legacies past or present, are exclusively theirs and do not always reflect the views of PGAP or SPA.Special Guest: Darren Johannesen .

The clock is ticking as we face an imminent agricultural crisis. It is likely that we only have around sixty global harvests left until the world's top soils are depleted. Regenerative agriculture offers many potential and practical solutions toward a more sustainable relationship between food production and environmental stewardship. However, sustainable farming is a broad church with many different and sometimes contradictory methodologies, from mob cattle grazing to veganic farming practices to precision fermentation. Which ones do we choose? Louis De Jaeger, author of “SOS: Save Our Soils”, asked this question as he travelled the world to explore the whole gamut of regenerative farms and land management practices. Louis’ holistic, non-judgemental and open-minded approach is very refreshing. As far as we’re aware, he is the only person who has managed to endorse veganic farming while also enjoying an enthusiastic introduction to his book by Allan Savory, figurehead of the holistic grazing movement. Louis concludes that all regenerative farming methods have their place, depending on context, so long as the soil is kept healthy with its precious microbiome intact. Louis de Jaeger is a Belgian based eco-entrepreneur, landscape consultant, speaker and author. You can find out more at his WEBSITE. “SOS: Save Our Soils”, launched in June 2025, is an impressive blend of research told through a conversational, easy-to-read style which makes it an essential addition to the growing wealth of regenerative literature. To purchase your own copy of SOS, visit HERE. Industrial agriculture is a top global driver of environmental change. A post-growth future requires us to completely reimagine how we approach agriculture, not only with regard to methodology, but also to the size and scale of our food growing enterprises. Following the interview with Louis, co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss engage in a ‘panel discussion’ where Louis’ book and interview are discussed (along with the broader regenerative movement) from a post-growth perspective. We encourage you to stick around to the end of the interview. Many thanks to West Australian permaculture band ‘Formidable Vegetable’ for the inclusion of their song ‘Earthworm Bill.’ You can find out more about Formidable Vegetable at their Bandcamp page HERE. Michael recently made a short video on a Johnson Su method composting workshop which also includes this song. It may be watched HERE. We highly recommend watching the debate between George Monbiot (precision fermentation advocate) and Allan Savory HERE. If you would like to listen to more episodes on the theme of regenerative agriculture, you may enjoy PGAP’s interview with Charles Massy HERE. We also recommend several episodes on permaculture, including special guests David Holmgren HERE or Shane Simonsen on Zero Input Agriculture HERE. In other news, we are pleased to share an online trophy awarded to us by Million Podcasts, an aggregate podcast site. PGAP sits in the top 50 of global ‘Sustainable Living’ podcasts, which is very encouraging. This is made possible by the PGAP community and word of mouth. Please consider sharing this and other episodes of PGAP with your networks. Alternatively, you can rate and review us on Apple Podcast or your favourite podcast platform. You can find out more about co-hosts Mark Allen HERE and Michael Bayliss HERE Time stamp - Introduction with Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss 00:00:00 to 00:05:28 Interview P1 with Louis De Jaeger 00:05:43 to 00:35:21 Intermission + 'Earthworn Bill' from 'Formidable Vegetable' 00:35:38 to 00:38:20 Interview P2 with Louis De Jaeger 00:38:20 to 00:53:42 Panel Discussion and Outro with Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss 00:53:57 to 01:07:30Special Guest: Louis De Jaeger.

For part two of our conversations with the Centre for the Advancement of the Steady State Economy (CASSE) we welcome special guest Matthew Washington, co-director of CASSE NSW INC. This episode is a freewheeling conversation across a variety of post-growth issues, most pertinently how we can advocate for Steady State Economies in a time of global instability and tension. This episode refers to an honours the past legacy of both the late Herman Daly and the late Haydn Washington, two leading figureheads of the steady state movement. Matthew and Michael discuss a spectrum of topics in under an hour, and we felt that some of the issues discussed only brushed the surface. If you would like a 'deeper dive' into the issues discussed, Matthew has kindly contributed to a guest blog on the PGAP website, where he provides substantial written responses to each of the question topics of the interview. You can read Matthew's guest blog HERE. Liked this episode? Check out our previous episode with Phil Jones, Treasurer/Secretary of CASSE NSW Inc., discussing the progress toward the Circular Economy in Australia. Sign the CASSE NSW Inc. petition to establish a Federal government inquiry into the steady state economy. You can also support PGAP by sharing this or other episodes with your networks. Encourage the online community to listen to PGAP by rating and reviewing us on Apple Podcast. On the PGAP website, you can subscribe or contact us, as we appreciate your invaluable feedback and suggestions. PGAP is supported by Sustainable Population Australia. You can sign their position statement, calling for an end to population growth policies in Australia. All perspectives of PGAP guests, including legacy past, present and future, are exclusively theirs and do not always reflect the perspectives or working of PGAP or SPA.Special Guest: Matthew Washington.

Across the next two episodes of PGAP, we will be showcasing the good work from CASSE NSW Inc., who are advocating for the steady state economy in Australia. For this episode, we interview Phil Jones, Treasurer and Secretary, as he shares with us the progress of government reports and inquiries into the Circular Economy. Furthermore, why it is crucial that we encourage the government to take serious action in implementing the circular economy, rather than letting their reports gather dust in Canberra. We discuss two reports in particular: The Circular Economy Ministerial Advisory Group, established in 2023, and: The Productivity Commission “Opportunities in the Circular Economy” interim report The circular economy is defined by Wikipepdia as: “a model of resource production and consumption in any economy that involves sharing, leasing, reusing, repairing, refurbishing, and recycling existing materials and products for as long as possible.” Phil is positive with the potential for the rollout of the circular economy in Australia, especially in its capacity to catalyse existing initiatives such as recycling programs, repair cafes, second hand exchange initiatives, etc. However, he cautions that the circular economy is alone insufficient in achieving true sustainability unless it is coupled with the Steady State Economy. That is, "an economy made up of a constant stock of physical wealth (capital) and a constant population size, which does grow over the course of time". The episode concludes with a call to action to get some real and action in response to these reports. A good place to start is by signing the CASSE NSW INC petition to establish a Federal government inquiry into the steady state economy. Did you like this episode and want to explore further? You may be interested in PGAP’s first ever episode with Steady State ACT, or with CASSE’s international director Brian Czech. We also discussed the New Economy Network Australia on the episode, so you may be interested in PGAP’s coverage of the 2023 NENA conference (sadly, I didn’t get around to recording Phil’s excellent talk). You can find out more about Phil and CASSE NSW in the Sustainable Population Australia Newsletter November 2024. Speaking of SPA, who proudly support PGAP, please consider signing their position statement, calling for an end to population growth in Australia. You can also support PGAP by sharing this or other episodes with your networks. Encourage the online community to listen to PGAP by rating and reviewing us on Apple Podcast. On the PGAP website, you can subscribe or contact us, as we appreciate your invaluable feedback and suggestions. All perspectives of PGAP guests, including legacy past, present and future, are exclusively theirs and do not always reflect the perspectives or working of PGAP or SPA.Special Guest: Phil Jones.

In the lead up to World Population Day (WPD) 2025, we welcome back Val Allen, who was previously a panel guest for the PGAP episode “3 Women 2 Countries 1 Message: World Population Day 2022.” Three years later, Val has a new book out – “HOW MANY IS ENOUGH?” -just in time for World Population Day 25. She is also in the process of finalising a new documentary “TICK TOCK BOOM BANG” due later this month, which she has produced along with Nick Bohle of HatChap productions. In this mini episode, Val shares her recent very busy journey in creating content across multiple media and her reflections on a world that has changed immensely in the three years since Val was last guest on PGAP. Valorie Allen has been an activist for 35 years in the environmental, population and animal rights movements, receiving the Canadian Volunteer Award. Her first award-winning book “Growing Pains—A Planet in Distress” was published in 2010. A trailer for ‘Tik Tok Boom Bang’ may be watched at the HatChap productions website HERE Valorie Allen’s latest book ‘How Many Is Enough?’ is available from Amazon for Kindle HERE. You can keep up to date with Val’s latest projects from her website Population In Sync. Sustainable Population Australia, who support PGAP, have launched a media release in anticipation for World Population Day, which may be read in full from the SPA website. It includes quotes from SPA patrons Prof. Anne Poelina and Dr. Paul Collins, both previous guests on PGAP. During this episode, Val refers to the chilling article from the Independent, “There could be billions more people on Earth than previously thought” which could be a consequence as a result of under counting rural populations. PGAP will never run ads and our success depends on word of mouth from our dedicated community. Please consider sharing this and other episodes of PGAP with your networks. Or rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast. We welcome you to subscribe or to contact us with your feedback, opinions and topic recommendations for future episodes.Special Guest: Valorie Allen.

In this episode of PGAP, we’re joined by Michael D.B. Harvey, author of "The Age of Humachines: Big Tech and the Battle for Humanity’s Future." Harvey offers a sobering perspective on the trajectory of modern technology - not towards a Star Trek-style utopia but into a hyper-neoliberal, corporate-driven dystopia shaped by Big Tech. His analysis strikes a chord with the Post-Growth community, which has long challenged the illusion that technology alone can rescue us from our social and ecological crises. Yet, Harvey is not fatalistic. He envisions a radically different future that is grounded in degrowth, steady-state economics, and a shared commitment to equity and ecological sustainability. The Age of Humachines explores how today’s tech revolution increasingly shapes every aspect of our lives, introducing critical concepts like the Technocene (the possible successor to the Anthropocene), Smartheid societies, and CIMENT, a term Harvey uses to describe the dominant values of Competitive Individualism and Materialist Entitlement. In contrast, he proposes a new framework: SEWP (Sustainable, Equitable Wellbeing Planetwide), offering offering a hopeful lens through which we might transition toward an Ecocene future. _ Cover of 'The Age of Humachines'. You can purchase your copy, or find our more, HERE. _ This conversation also provided PGAP co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss the opportunity to reflect on their personal relationships with technology over the past three decades, from the optimism of the 1990s to the increasing unease of today’s digital world. Michael D.B. Harvey holds qualifications in English Literature, Sociology, Psychology, Psychotherapy, and Organizational Psychology. He is also the author of Interactional Leadership: The Art of the Choice-Focused Leader and Utopia in the Anthropocene: A Change Plan for a Sustainable and Equitable World. Harvey’s connections include the Centre for the Advancement of the Steady State Economy (CASSE), who helped make this interview possible. If this episode resonated with you, we highly recommend picking up a copy of The Age of Humachines [HERE], and checking out Harvey’s engaging talks and interviews on YouTube, e.g. [HERE]. Michael is also a musician, performing solo and withhis band Bridges of Sound. This episode features a sample of his song “Standing Up for Being Human.” We’d love to hear your thoughts on the future of technology. Reach out to PGAP through our contact form, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, and share this episode with your networks. You can find out more about PGAP co-hosts Mark Allen [HERE] and Michael Bayliss [HERE]. Episode Timestamp: 00:00 - Introduction with Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss 11:40 - Part 1 interview with Michael D.B. Harvey 40:56 - Interlude with Michael Bayliss and excerpt from “Standing Up for Being Human.” 43:06 - Part 2 interview with Michael D.B. Harvey Please note: The views expressed by PGAP guests are their own and may not necessarily reflect those of PGAP or Sustainable Population Australia (SPA), who support this podcast.Special Guest: Michael DB Harvey.

In this discussion, scientist and author George Tsakraklides delves into the roots of humanity’s crises and civilizational collapse. He critiques our evolutionary wiring and societal structures that block meaningful change. The conversation highlights the pitfalls of capitalism and science in tackling climate issues, while examining social media's influence on perception and reality. George advocates for empathy in environmental activism and underscores the vital need for a deeper connection to nature as a pathway to engage with despair and foster a more meaningful existence.

Susie Russell is a long-time activist and campaigner for protecting Australia’s forests who holds committee positions in The North East Forest Alliance, the North Coast Environment Council, 4Nature and The Rainforest Information Centre. Susie was awarded the Miles Dunphy Award in 2024 and soon after was arrested as part of the Save Bulga Forest movement for obstructing logging in endangered glider habitat. In this episode we explore several critical issues including the persistent effects of growth-driven capitalism on the natural environment as well as the urgent need for deep, systemic change to avert impending ecological collapse. Drawing on decades of experience in environmental and social justice activism, Susie goes on to offer a distinctive and holistic vision for a post-growth future where humanity can thrive in harmony with the natural world. • For further reading, we recommend Susie’s interview with the Finding Courage publication: “Standing Up (Even When All Seems Lost).” • PGAP was introduced to Susie through John Seed, who we interviewed in the season 5 finale: “Going deep into Deep Ecology with John Seed.” Many thanks to all of our listeners for your support. You are welcome to support PGAP further by sharing this episode with your friends, family and networks. You are also welcome to rate and review us on Apple Podcast or your favourite podcast platform. You can send us your feedback, thoughts and suggestions on the PGAP Contact form. You can find out more about your PGAP co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss HERE and HERE.Special Guest: Susie Russell.

In 2024, the University of New South Wales (UNSW) held a panel discussion on Degrowth as part of their Centre for Ideas series. The panellists were Tommy Wiedmann (Professor of Sustainability Research), Bronwen Morgan (Professor of Law and member of NENA), and Sabrina Chakori (CSIRO researcher). The discussion was hosted by former Deputy Lord Mayor and author of Glimpses of Utopia, Jess Scully. The panel explored sustainability and the urgent challenge of ensuring human needs are met without compromising a sustainable and inclusive future. With the kind permission of UNSW Centre for Ideas, the recording of this panel discussion is now available to listen to on the Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP). Tommy Wiedmann has been a supporter of PGAP since our early days in 2021, so it was great to hear him in his element, sharing his research, knowledge, and ideas on Degrowth. We really appreciate Tommy and panel host Jess Scully giving PGAP a shout-out towards the end of the talk. We hope to return the favour by sharing this insightful discussion, which serves as an excellent introduction to Degrowth for those new to the topic. It is encouraging to see Degrowth becoming an openly discussed subject in Australian universities. Tommy also wrote a very encouraging review for PGAP on Apple Podcast. We warmly invite you to add your review. This will help to broaden our outreach and encourage new listeners. Please also feel welcome to contact us with your feedback or suggestions for future episode topics. Co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss share their thoughts on the panel discussion in the introduction and conclusion. For the most part, we align with the perspectives of the four panellists, but we also provide additional thoughts on how the Degrowth movement can incorporate concerns around population, which we briefly touch on in our commentary. For a more in-depth analysis, we encourage you to read the PGAP blog: “To populate or not to populate? How we can come together around the eternal debate of everyone’s favourite vexed issue.” We also encourage listening to two recent PGAP episodes on population, including Anne Poelina, who brings a First Nations’ perspective to the debate, and Isaac Kabongo, who brings a Ugandan/Global South perspective. Regarding the discussion on population, Tommy cited two particularly relevant scientific articles, which are well worth reading: Lamb, W. F., Wiedmann, T., Pongratz, J., Andrew, R., Crippa, M., Olivier, J. G. J., Wiedenhofer, D., Mattioli, G., Khourdajie, A. A., House, J., Pachauri, S., Figueroa, M., Saheb, Y., Slade, R., Hubacek, K., Sun, L., Ribeiro, S. K., Khennas, S., de la Rue du Can, S., Chapungu, L., Davis, S. J., Bashmakov, I., Dai, H., Dhakal, S., Tan, X., Geng, Y., Gu, B. and Minx, J. (2021) A review of trends and drivers of greenhouse gas emissions by sector from 1990 to 2018. Environmental Research Letters, 16, 073005.[ http://dx.doi.org/10.1088/1748-9326/abee4e](. http://dx.doi.org/10.1088/1748-9326/abee4e) Kikstra, J. S., Mastrucci, A., Min, J., Riahi, K. and Rao, N. D. (2021) Decent living gaps and energy needs around the world. Environmental Research Letters, 16, 095006. https://dx.doi.org/10.1088/1748-9326/ac1c27 We would like to thank UNSW, the Centre for Ideas, and all four speakers for allowing PGAP to re-release this outstanding panel discussion. The original podcast of this discussion is available to listen to on the Centre for Ideas website HERE. All views, opinions, and legacies—past and present—of the panellists and UNSW Centre for Ideas are their own and may not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of PGAP (and vice versa).Special Guests: Bronwen Morgan, Jess Scully, Sabrina Chakori, and Tommy Wiedmann.