Post-Growth Australia Podcast

The clock is ticking as we face an imminent agricultural crisis. It is likely that we only have around sixty global harvests left until the world's top soils are depleted. Regenerative agriculture offers many potential and practical solutions toward a more sustainable relationship between food production and environmental stewardship. However, sustainable farming is a broad church with many different and sometimes contradictory methodologies, from mob cattle grazing to veganic farming practices to precision fermentation. Which ones do we choose? Louis De Jaeger, author of “SOS: Save Our Soils”, asked this question as he travelled the world to explore the whole gamut of regenerative farms and land management practices. Louis’ holistic, non-judgemental and open-minded approach is very refreshing. As far as we’re aware, he is the only person who has managed to endorse veganic farming while also enjoying an enthusiastic introduction to his book by Allan Savory, figurehead of the holistic grazing movement. Louis concludes that all regenerative farming methods have their place, depending on context, so long as the soil is kept healthy with its precious microbiome intact. Louis de Jaeger is a Belgian based eco-entrepreneur, landscape consultant, speaker and author. You can find out more at his WEBSITE. “SOS: Save Our Soils”, launched in June 2025, is an impressive blend of research told through a conversational, easy-to-read style which makes it an essential addition to the growing wealth of regenerative literature. To purchase your own copy of SOS, visit HERE. Industrial agriculture is a top global driver of environmental change. A post-growth future requires us to completely reimagine how we approach agriculture, not only with regard to methodology, but also to the size and scale of our food growing enterprises. Following the interview with Louis, co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss engage in a ‘panel discussion’ where Louis’ book and interview are discussed (along with the broader regenerative movement) from a post-growth perspective. We encourage you to stick around to the end of the interview. Many thanks to West Australian permaculture band ‘Formidable Vegetable’ for the inclusion of their song ‘Earthworm Bill.’ You can find out more about Formidable Vegetable at their Bandcamp page HERE. Michael recently made a short video on a Johnson Su method composting workshop which also includes this song. It may be watched HERE. We highly recommend watching the debate between George Monbiot (precision fermentation advocate) and Allan Savory HERE. If you would like to listen to more episodes on the theme of regenerative agriculture, you may enjoy PGAP’s interview with Charles Massy HERE. We also recommend several episodes on permaculture, including special guests David Holmgren HERE or Shane Simonsen on Zero Input Agriculture HERE. In other news, we are pleased to share an online trophy awarded to us by Million Podcasts, an aggregate podcast site. PGAP sits in the top 50 of global ‘Sustainable Living’ podcasts, which is very encouraging. This is made possible by the PGAP community and word of mouth. Please consider sharing this and other episodes of PGAP with your networks. Alternatively, you can rate and review us on Apple Podcast or your favourite podcast platform. You can find out more about co-hosts Mark Allen HERE and Michael Bayliss HERE Time stamp - Introduction with Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss 00:00:00 to 00:05:28 Interview P1 with Louis De Jaeger 00:05:43 to 00:35:21 Intermission + 'Earthworn Bill' from 'Formidable Vegetable' 00:35:38 to 00:38:20 Interview P2 with Louis De Jaeger 00:38:20 to 00:53:42 Panel Discussion and Outro with Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss 00:53:57 to 01:07:30Special Guest: Louis De Jaeger.

For part two of our conversations with the Centre for the Advancement of the Steady State Economy (CASSE) we welcome special guest Matthew Washington, co-director of CASSE NSW INC. This episode is a freewheeling conversation across a variety of post-growth issues, most pertinently how we can advocate for Steady State Economies in a time of global instability and tension. This episode refers to an honours the past legacy of both the late Herman Daly and the late Haydn Washington, two leading figureheads of the steady state movement. Matthew and Michael discuss a spectrum of topics in under an hour, and we felt that some of the issues discussed only brushed the surface. If you would like a 'deeper dive' into the issues discussed, Matthew has kindly contributed to a guest blog on the PGAP website, where he provides substantial written responses to each of the question topics of the interview. You can read Matthew's guest blog HERE. Liked this episode? Check out our previous episode with Phil Jones, Treasurer/Secretary of CASSE NSW Inc., discussing the progress toward the Circular Economy in Australia. Sign the CASSE NSW Inc. petition to establish a Federal government inquiry into the steady state economy. You can also support PGAP by sharing this or other episodes with your networks. Encourage the online community to listen to PGAP by rating and reviewing us on Apple Podcast. On the PGAP website, you can subscribe or contact us, as we appreciate your invaluable feedback and suggestions. PGAP is supported by Sustainable Population Australia. You can sign their position statement, calling for an end to population growth policies in Australia. All perspectives of PGAP guests, including legacy past, present and future, are exclusively theirs and do not always reflect the perspectives or working of PGAP or SPA.Special Guest: Matthew Washington.

Across the next two episodes of PGAP, we will be showcasing the good work from CASSE NSW Inc., who are advocating for the steady state economy in Australia. For this episode, we interview Phil Jones, Treasurer and Secretary, as he shares with us the progress of government reports and inquiries into the Circular Economy. Furthermore, why it is crucial that we encourage the government to take serious action in implementing the circular economy, rather than letting their reports gather dust in Canberra. We discuss two reports in particular: The Circular Economy Ministerial Advisory Group, established in 2023, and: The Productivity Commission “Opportunities in the Circular Economy” interim report The circular economy is defined by Wikipepdia as: “a model of resource production and consumption in any economy that involves sharing, leasing, reusing, repairing, refurbishing, and recycling existing materials and products for as long as possible.” Phil is positive with the potential for the rollout of the circular economy in Australia, especially in its capacity to catalyse existing initiatives such as recycling programs, repair cafes, second hand exchange initiatives, etc. However, he cautions that the circular economy is alone insufficient in achieving true sustainability unless it is coupled with the Steady State Economy. That is, "an economy made up of a constant stock of physical wealth (capital) and a constant population size, which does grow over the course of time". The episode concludes with a call to action to get some real and action in response to these reports. A good place to start is by signing the CASSE NSW INC petition to establish a Federal government inquiry into the steady state economy. Did you like this episode and want to explore further? You may be interested in PGAP’s first ever episode with Steady State ACT, or with CASSE’s international director Brian Czech. We also discussed the New Economy Network Australia on the episode, so you may be interested in PGAP’s coverage of the 2023 NENA conference (sadly, I didn’t get around to recording Phil’s excellent talk). You can find out more about Phil and CASSE NSW in the Sustainable Population Australia Newsletter November 2024. Speaking of SPA, who proudly support PGAP, please consider signing their position statement, calling for an end to population growth in Australia. You can also support PGAP by sharing this or other episodes with your networks. Encourage the online community to listen to PGAP by rating and reviewing us on Apple Podcast. On the PGAP website, you can subscribe or contact us, as we appreciate your invaluable feedback and suggestions. All perspectives of PGAP guests, including legacy past, present and future, are exclusively theirs and do not always reflect the perspectives or working of PGAP or SPA.Special Guest: Phil Jones.

In the lead up to World Population Day (WPD) 2025, we welcome back Val Allen, who was previously a panel guest for the PGAP episode “3 Women 2 Countries 1 Message: World Population Day 2022.” Three years later, Val has a new book out – “HOW MANY IS ENOUGH?” -just in time for World Population Day 25. She is also in the process of finalising a new documentary “TICK TOCK BOOM BANG” due later this month, which she has produced along with Nick Bohle of HatChap productions. In this mini episode, Val shares her recent very busy journey in creating content across multiple media and her reflections on a world that has changed immensely in the three years since Val was last guest on PGAP. Valorie Allen has been an activist for 35 years in the environmental, population and animal rights movements, receiving the Canadian Volunteer Award. Her first award-winning book “Growing Pains—A Planet in Distress” was published in 2010. A trailer for ‘Tik Tok Boom Bang’ may be watched at the HatChap productions website HERE Valorie Allen’s latest book ‘How Many Is Enough?’ is available from Amazon for Kindle HERE. You can keep up to date with Val’s latest projects from her website Population In Sync. Sustainable Population Australia, who support PGAP, have launched a media release in anticipation for World Population Day, which may be read in full from the SPA website. It includes quotes from SPA patrons Prof. Anne Poelina and Dr. Paul Collins, both previous guests on PGAP. During this episode, Val refers to the chilling article from the Independent, “There could be billions more people on Earth than previously thought” which could be a consequence as a result of under counting rural populations. PGAP will never run ads and our success depends on word of mouth from our dedicated community. Please consider sharing this and other episodes of PGAP with your networks. Or rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast. We welcome you to subscribe or to contact us with your feedback, opinions and topic recommendations for future episodes.Special Guest: Valorie Allen.

In this episode of PGAP, we’re joined by Michael D.B. Harvey, author of "The Age of Humachines: Big Tech and the Battle for Humanity’s Future." Harvey offers a sobering perspective on the trajectory of modern technology - not towards a Star Trek-style utopia but into a hyper-neoliberal, corporate-driven dystopia shaped by Big Tech. His analysis strikes a chord with the Post-Growth community, which has long challenged the illusion that technology alone can rescue us from our social and ecological crises. Yet, Harvey is not fatalistic. He envisions a radically different future that is grounded in degrowth, steady-state economics, and a shared commitment to equity and ecological sustainability. The Age of Humachines explores how today’s tech revolution increasingly shapes every aspect of our lives, introducing critical concepts like the Technocene (the possible successor to the Anthropocene), Smartheid societies, and CIMENT, a term Harvey uses to describe the dominant values of Competitive Individualism and Materialist Entitlement. In contrast, he proposes a new framework: SEWP (Sustainable, Equitable Wellbeing Planetwide), offering offering a hopeful lens through which we might transition toward an Ecocene future. _ Cover of 'The Age of Humachines'. You can purchase your copy, or find our more, HERE. _ This conversation also provided PGAP co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss the opportunity to reflect on their personal relationships with technology over the past three decades, from the optimism of the 1990s to the increasing unease of today’s digital world. Michael D.B. Harvey holds qualifications in English Literature, Sociology, Psychology, Psychotherapy, and Organizational Psychology. He is also the author of Interactional Leadership: The Art of the Choice-Focused Leader and Utopia in the Anthropocene: A Change Plan for a Sustainable and Equitable World. Harvey’s connections include the Centre for the Advancement of the Steady State Economy (CASSE), who helped make this interview possible. If this episode resonated with you, we highly recommend picking up a copy of The Age of Humachines [HERE], and checking out Harvey’s engaging talks and interviews on YouTube, e.g. [HERE]. Michael is also a musician, performing solo and withhis band Bridges of Sound. This episode features a sample of his song “Standing Up for Being Human.” We’d love to hear your thoughts on the future of technology. Reach out to PGAP through our contact form, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, and share this episode with your networks. You can find out more about PGAP co-hosts Mark Allen [HERE] and Michael Bayliss [HERE]. Episode Timestamp: 00:00 - Introduction with Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss 11:40 - Part 1 interview with Michael D.B. Harvey 40:56 - Interlude with Michael Bayliss and excerpt from “Standing Up for Being Human.” 43:06 - Part 2 interview with Michael D.B. Harvey Please note: The views expressed by PGAP guests are their own and may not necessarily reflect those of PGAP or Sustainable Population Australia (SPA), who support this podcast.Special Guest: Michael DB Harvey.

In this discussion, scientist and author George Tsakraklides delves into the roots of humanity’s crises and civilizational collapse. He critiques our evolutionary wiring and societal structures that block meaningful change. The conversation highlights the pitfalls of capitalism and science in tackling climate issues, while examining social media's influence on perception and reality. George advocates for empathy in environmental activism and underscores the vital need for a deeper connection to nature as a pathway to engage with despair and foster a more meaningful existence.

Susie Russell is a long-time activist and campaigner for protecting Australia’s forests who holds committee positions in The North East Forest Alliance, the North Coast Environment Council, 4Nature and The Rainforest Information Centre. Susie was awarded the Miles Dunphy Award in 2024 and soon after was arrested as part of the Save Bulga Forest movement for obstructing logging in endangered glider habitat. In this episode we explore several critical issues including the persistent effects of growth-driven capitalism on the natural environment as well as the urgent need for deep, systemic change to avert impending ecological collapse. Drawing on decades of experience in environmental and social justice activism, Susie goes on to offer a distinctive and holistic vision for a post-growth future where humanity can thrive in harmony with the natural world. • For further reading, we recommend Susie’s interview with the Finding Courage publication: “Standing Up (Even When All Seems Lost).” • PGAP was introduced to Susie through John Seed, who we interviewed in the season 5 finale: “Going deep into Deep Ecology with John Seed.” Many thanks to all of our listeners for your support. You are welcome to support PGAP further by sharing this episode with your friends, family and networks. You are also welcome to rate and review us on Apple Podcast or your favourite podcast platform. You can send us your feedback, thoughts and suggestions on the PGAP Contact form. You can find out more about your PGAP co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss HERE and HERE.Special Guest: Susie Russell.

In 2024, the University of New South Wales (UNSW) held a panel discussion on Degrowth as part of their Centre for Ideas series. The panellists were Tommy Wiedmann (Professor of Sustainability Research), Bronwen Morgan (Professor of Law and member of NENA), and Sabrina Chakori (CSIRO researcher). The discussion was hosted by former Deputy Lord Mayor and author of Glimpses of Utopia, Jess Scully. The panel explored sustainability and the urgent challenge of ensuring human needs are met without compromising a sustainable and inclusive future. With the kind permission of UNSW Centre for Ideas, the recording of this panel discussion is now available to listen to on the Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP). Tommy Wiedmann has been a supporter of PGAP since our early days in 2021, so it was great to hear him in his element, sharing his research, knowledge, and ideas on Degrowth. We really appreciate Tommy and panel host Jess Scully giving PGAP a shout-out towards the end of the talk. We hope to return the favour by sharing this insightful discussion, which serves as an excellent introduction to Degrowth for those new to the topic. It is encouraging to see Degrowth becoming an openly discussed subject in Australian universities. Tommy also wrote a very encouraging review for PGAP on Apple Podcast. We warmly invite you to add your review. This will help to broaden our outreach and encourage new listeners. Please also feel welcome to contact us with your feedback or suggestions for future episode topics. Co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss share their thoughts on the panel discussion in the introduction and conclusion. For the most part, we align with the perspectives of the four panellists, but we also provide additional thoughts on how the Degrowth movement can incorporate concerns around population, which we briefly touch on in our commentary. For a more in-depth analysis, we encourage you to read the PGAP blog: “To populate or not to populate? How we can come together around the eternal debate of everyone’s favourite vexed issue.” We also encourage listening to two recent PGAP episodes on population, including Anne Poelina, who brings a First Nations’ perspective to the debate, and Isaac Kabongo, who brings a Ugandan/Global South perspective. Regarding the discussion on population, Tommy cited two particularly relevant scientific articles, which are well worth reading: Lamb, W. F., Wiedmann, T., Pongratz, J., Andrew, R., Crippa, M., Olivier, J. G. J., Wiedenhofer, D., Mattioli, G., Khourdajie, A. A., House, J., Pachauri, S., Figueroa, M., Saheb, Y., Slade, R., Hubacek, K., Sun, L., Ribeiro, S. K., Khennas, S., de la Rue du Can, S., Chapungu, L., Davis, S. J., Bashmakov, I., Dai, H., Dhakal, S., Tan, X., Geng, Y., Gu, B. and Minx, J. (2021) A review of trends and drivers of greenhouse gas emissions by sector from 1990 to 2018. Environmental Research Letters, 16, 073005.[ http://dx.doi.org/10.1088/1748-9326/abee4e](. http://dx.doi.org/10.1088/1748-9326/abee4e) Kikstra, J. S., Mastrucci, A., Min, J., Riahi, K. and Rao, N. D. (2021) Decent living gaps and energy needs around the world. Environmental Research Letters, 16, 095006. https://dx.doi.org/10.1088/1748-9326/ac1c27 We would like to thank UNSW, the Centre for Ideas, and all four speakers for allowing PGAP to re-release this outstanding panel discussion. The original podcast of this discussion is available to listen to on the Centre for Ideas website HERE. All views, opinions, and legacies—past and present—of the panellists and UNSW Centre for Ideas are their own and may not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of PGAP (and vice versa).Special Guests: Bronwen Morgan, Jess Scully, Sabrina Chakori, and Tommy Wiedmann.

Isaac Kabongo is the CEO of the Uganda-based Ecological Christian Organisation (ECO), a faith-driven initiative dedicated to fostering environmental stewardship at the grassroots level. ECO works to integrate sustainability with community-led action, including raising awareness about family planning and contraception. By reframing the relationship between Christianity, family planning, and discussions around population, the organisation provides an important bridge between faith and sustainability. In addition to his leadership at ECO, Isaac has represented Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) at each international COP talk since 2012, playing a key role in shaping discussions on how the Global South and Global North can collaborate to address population related issues. A committed advocate for Degrowth and Ecological Sustainability, Isaac’s insights are a vital contribution to the post-growth movement. Isaac speaking on a panel at a recent COP As we are all aware, population sustainability remains a contentious issue. However, it is too often that the voices of experts from Global South communities remain unconsulted. In this episode, PGAP asks Isaac several pertinent questions relevant to the population debate, including: "As a Ugandan citizen, how would you reassure the international community that it is a good thing that organisations within Australia and Uganda work together to address overpopulation in Uganda and other countries in the Global South?" While Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) campaigns strongly on the domestic population issues facing Australia, less is known about the organisation’s commitment to the global stage. We hope this episode will be an inspiration on global partnerships in response to delivering on basic human rights such as access to family planning and reproductive healthcare. Issac was interviwed for the SPA February 2025 Newsletter, which can be downloaded here. Isaac Kabongo representing SPA at a COP exhibition stall, photographed with fellow exhibitors. For more PGAP episodes that explore Global South perspectives on population, we recommend our interviews with Women for Conversation (Colombia) and Florence Blondel (who is also from Uganda). Please share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. Also, feel welcome to rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast, subscribe to PGAP, or contact us with your feedback. During this episode, we play the latest single from new West Australian band ‘Mobile Zebra’. You can find out more about your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen here and here.Special Guest: Isaac Kabongo.

In late 2024, Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) proudly welcomed Professor Anne Poelina as its newest Patron. This mini-episode features the audio recording from a video interview that co-host Michael Bayliss conducted with Anne as part of SPA's Meet the Patrons series. An abridged version of this interview is available on YouTube. As a Nyikina Warrwa Traditional Owner from the Kimberley region of Western Australia, Professor Poelina brings a profound commitment to integrating Indigenous First Australian wisdom into discussions on degrowth, population, and immigration policies. At PGAP, we strongly believe that First Nations perspectives are essential in shaping a collaborative path toward a more equitable and sustainable future. Prof. Poelina's invitation to be Patron for SPA was partly inspired by her past interview on PGAP: "Saving the Martuwarra-Fitzroy river with Professor Anne Poelina". You can read more about Anne at SPA's patron page HERE. Anne is also the chair of the Martuwarra Fitzroy River Council and her work on water security aligns with SPA’s most recent discussion paper: “Big thirsty Australia: how population growth threatens our water security and sustainability.” We’d love to hear your thoughts on this episode of PGAP! CONTACT US HERE with your feedback, ideas for future episodes, or suggestions for potential guests. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing it with your networks, leaving a review on APPLE PODCAST, or SUBSCRIBING. You can find out more about your co-hosts Mark Allen HERE and Michael Bayliss HERE.Special Guest: Prof. Anne Poelina.