Sinica Podcast

This week, Kaiser chats with Manfred Elfstrom, an assistant professor in the Department of Economics, Philosophy, and Political Science at the University of British Columbia, Okanagan. Manfred’s new book, Workers and Change in China: Resistance, Repression, Responsiveness, examines the state’s dynamic approach to handling labor actions — petitions, protests, strikes, and the like — and how it has blended compromise and coercion to address the demands of workers. The book makes an important contribution to a growing body of literature that seeks a deeper understanding of authoritarian governance in China and more generally among autocratic regimes. 3:27 – How the book’s argument fits into the broader literature on authoritarian governance9:32 – The book’s geographic focus: The Pearl River Delta and the Yangzi River Delta22:12 – Repression and responsiveness32:39 – Why repression and responsiveness undercut one another43:58 – The bureaucratic incentive to handle labor unrest well50:28 – Labor issues, common prosperity, and the “Red New Deal”55:58 – The Jasic protests and the crackdown on the Peking University Marxist study groupA transcript of this interview is available on SupChina.comRecommendations:Manfred: Elizabeth Perry’s book Anyuan: Mining China’s Revolutionary Tradition; and James Green’s The Devil Is Here in These Hills: West Virginia’s Coal Miners and their Battle for Freedom.Kaiser: The Ezra Klein Show, and particularly the episode featuring Adam Tooze, “Economics Needs to Reckon with What it Doesn’t Know.” See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This week on the Sinica Podcast, Kaiser welcomes former Acting Assistant Secretary of State for East Asia and Pacific Affairs Susan Thornton to discuss a recently published audit of the Strategic and Economic Dialogue (S&ED), the annual set of high-level meetings with Chinese officials that were convened during the Obama administration by the U.S. Departments of State and the Treasury. The audit’s two lead authors, representing the two organizations behind the audit, the National Committee on U.S. Foreign Policy and the American Friends Service Committee, also join the conversation. Rorry Daniels is the Deputy Project Director at the National Committee on American Foreign Policy’s Forum on Asia-Pacific Security, where she organizes research and Track II discussions on security issues and conflict mediation in the Asia-Pacific. Daniel Jasper is the Public Education and Advocacy Coordinator, Asia, for the American Friends Service Committee, where his work focuses on China and North Korea. Susan, Rorry, and Dan make a strong case that, contrary to an emerging bipartisan consensus in Washington that engagement with China was a failure, the policy of engagement actually bore substantial fruit.6:12 – The SED and the S&ED — why the ampersand matters10:37 – The rationale behind the S&ED16:15 – In the room at the S&ED meetings30:12 – Critiques of the S&ED process36:47 – The mechanics of the S&ED audit44:13 – Five major accomplishments of the S&ED1:01:38 – Other surprising U.S. gains from the S&ED1:10:51 – How could the process be improved?A transcript of this interview is available on SupChina.com. Recommendations:Rorry: The Good Place (a TV show by Michael Schur) and the eponymous podcast hosted by Tara Brach.Dan: Silence: The Power of Quiet in a World Full of Noise, by Thich Nhat Hanh, and The China Hustle, a documentary on China-focused short sellers, by Jed Rothstein.Susan: The Incredible Dr. Pol, a reality show about a veterinarian on National Geographic; Hidden Forces, a podcast hosted by Demetri Kofinas; and China and Japan: Facing History, the last book by the great scholar Ezra Vogel.Kaiser: Wildland: The Making of America’s Fury, by Evan Osnos, especially in audiobook form, read by the author, and Grand Tamasha, a podcast about current affairs in India, hosted by Milan Vaishnav.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This week on Sinica, Kaiser and Jeremy welcome Lizzi Lee (李其 Lǐ Qi), SupChina contributor and host of the excellent Chinese-language YouTube channel Wall Street Today, and Jude Blanchette, Freeman Chair at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), to talk about the spate of regulatory actions, new rules, and Party-led initiatives that, taken together, we at SupChina have started calling the “Red New Deal.” Can these be understood as different facets of a larger, overarching program to remake China’s economy and society? Or are they better understood as distinct moves by different bureaucracies within the Party-state that happen to coincide in time? Listen in as we try to sort through what it all means.11:42 - Lizzi’s contrarian take on whether the new regulation adds up to something bigger15:00 - The logic of the political calendar in China22:56 - What did the response to the Li Guangman viral post mean?33:14 - Kevin Rudd’s take on what it all means – the “red thread”43:32 - No, this isn’t the Cultural Revolution53:00 - Is this a return to true communism?57:34 - Is Xi Jinping China’s biggest tiger mom?A transcript of this interview is available on SupChina.com.RecommendationsJeremy: NüVoices Podcast: Barabara Demick on Eat the Buddha, the final NüVoices episode on SupChina; and the Vice video on YouTube, How China's Queer Youth Built An Underground Ballroom Scene.Lizzi: Desmond Shum’s book Red Roulette: An Insider's Story of Wealth, Power, Corruption, and Vengeance in Today's China.Jude: The New Class: An Analysis of the Communist System by Milovan Djilas.Kaiser: Shutdown: How COVID Shook the World Economy by Adam Tooze; Reservation Dogs (TV show from FX).See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Last month, the National Committee on United States-China Relations (NCUSCR) published a report for the Carnegie Corporation of New York titled “American International Relations and Security Programs Focused on China: A Survey of the Field.” This week on Sinica, Kaiser chats with the report’s lead author, Rosie Levine, and with Jan Berris, long-serving vice president of the NCUSCR, who celebrates her 50th year with the National Committee this month. The report surveyed academic institutions, NGOs, and think tanks about the state of the field of American China studies at a time when relations between the U.S. and China are at their lowest in the five decades since the opening to China began under Nixon. Rosie and Jan review their findings and reflect on the challenges that the NCUSCR faces in these difficult days.1:53: The mysterious and tragic disappearance of Rye and Caraway Triscuits13:30: Growing demand for China-related content18:35: Choked-off information flows out of China, fears over detention and the Two Michaels27:35: The impact of the U.S. political environment on China discourse and scholarship34:22: The singular focus on national security in U.S. discourse on China48:22: How the National Committee is weathering the stormA transcript of this interview is available on SupChina.com.RecommendationsJan: Going back to summer camp, going off the grid, and re-reading HemingwayRosie: "Why does it cost so much to build thins in America?" from Vox; a Freakomics interview with Pete Buttigieg and Elaine Chao, the current and former Secretaries of Transportation.Kaiser: Ezra Klein's recent interview with Robert Wright on Afghanistan, China, and U.S. foreign policy; and the 1975 Steven Spielberg film Jaws, which is the favorite film of Jude Blanchette, interviewed recently in The Wire China.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

If corruption is a drag on economic growth, why does China appear to have undergone some of its fastest growth during its periods of deepest corruption? This week on Sinica, Kaiser chats with Yuen Yuen Ang, an associate professor of political science at the University of Michigan, about her book China’s Gilded Age: The Paradox of Economic Boom and Vast Corruption, which sets out to explain this apparent contradiction. The author highlights the inadequacies of existing measures of corruption, suggests her own alternative means of measuring it, and explains how the prevalence of one particular form of corruption — what she calls “access money” — is something China has in common with the United States in the age of robber barons.5:00: A typology of corruption, and how drugs are a useful analogy10:05: Why all corruption is ultimately bad for a country20:25: Is the “revolving door” in the U.S. equivalent to access money corruption?27:44: The relationship between corruption and regime type41:45: Profit-sharing with Chinese characteristics59:37: Xi Jinping’s anti-corruption drive: are officials spared because of performance, or patronage?RecommendationsYuen Yuen: The documentary film Generation Wealth Kaiser: The Netflix miniseries The Chair  and the podcast Chinese Whispers by Cindy YuSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This week on Sinica, Kaiser chats with William (Bill) Overholt, senior research fellow at Harvard University’s Kennedy School of Government and a veteran China-watcher whose career has run the gamut from investment banking to academia to the leading think tanks. Bill recently weighed in on the U.S. Department of Commerce’s decision to place Esquel, a leading textile manufacturer headquartered in Hong Kong, on its entity list of companies alleged to be using forced labor from Xinjiang, lamenting that “it’s quite possible that the U.S. government has imposed sanctions on the world’s most socially responsible company and one that has been particularly beneficial to the Uyghurs.” Bill also discusses recent essays on other problems in American China policy.7:17: First impressions of Esquel, its technology, and its working conditions for Uyghurs21:47: Targeted sanctions vs. blanket sanctions35:06: Lack of China expertise in the highest ranks of the Biden administration’s foreign policy team44:43: Why the United States should return to an economic strategyA transcript of this episode is available on SupChina.com.Recommendations:Bill: Newsletters and podcasts from SupChina; articles from The Wire China; and the article “The Chinese Debt Trap is a Myth” published in The Atlantic, by Deborah Brautigam and Meg Rithmire.Kaiser: The novel The Lions of al-Rassan, by Guy Gavriel Kay.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This week on Sinica, Kaiser chats with the Columbia historian Adam Tooze, who returns to the program a year after his first appearance. A prolific writer and wide-ranging public intellectual, Adam was trained as a Germanist and has focused, in his writings, largely on economic history. His books include The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy, The Deluge: The Great War, America and the Remaking of the Global Order, 1916–1931, and Crashed: How a Decade of Financial Crisis Changed the World. In July, Adam published an ambitious essay titled “Why there is no solution to our age of crisis without China” in The New Statesman, in which he lays out a brief history of China from the crisis of the Qing Empire in the 19th century through China’s “Century of Humiliation” up to the project of national rejuvenation, which has been the focus of Xí Jìnpíng’s 习近平 time in office. Adam talks about why he feels it’s important to occasionally venture outside one’s own field of specialization, as he did in writing on China as a non-specialist; the folly of two oft-cited historical analogies, comparing China with both Wilhelmine and Hitlerian Germany; the importance of comparative history in making sense of contemporary international relations; and America’s difficulty, when it comes to China, in accepting pluralism from anything but a position of dominance.16:02: What we get wrong about the Thucydides Trap and other historical analogies about China21:17: Why the modern P.R.C. is not a mature fascist state28:58: The iterative nature of China’s economic modernization 46:59: China as a civilization vs. China as a nation stateA transcript of this episode is available on SupChina.com.Recommendations:Adam: Stalingrad, by Vasily Grossman.Kaiser: The Spanish-language television series The Legend of El Cid.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This week on Sinica, Kaiser and Jeremy chat with Peter Martin, a correspondent for Bloomberg based in Washington, D.C., about his book, China’s Civilian Army: The Making of Wolf Warrior Diplomacy. This highly readable and informative book tells the story of China’s diplomatic corps from its creation ex nihilo under the guidance of Zhōu Ēnlái 周恩来 during the Communist Party’s years in Yan’an in the 1930s and 1940s through the foundation of the P.R.C., the vicissitudes of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, and the period of reform and opening up to the current, more assertive, and often pugilistic present under Xí Jìnpíng 习近平. Peter also offers his take on last week’s interview on Sinica with Ambassador Huáng Píng 黄屏, the consul general of China’s New York consulate.7:48: The centrality of the national humiliation narrative to the institutional foundations of China’s Foreign Ministry15:02: The contributions and diplomatic styles of prominent contemporaries such as Qián Qíchēn 钱其琛, Dài Bǐngguó 戴秉国, Yáng Jiéchí 杨洁篪, and Wáng Yì 王毅24:46: The rise of Foreign Ministry Spokesman Zhào Lìjiān 赵立坚47:28: Understanding Chinese diplomacy’s hard turn amidst a culture of disciplineA transcript of this episode is available on SupChina.com.Recommendations: Jeremy: Hummingbird feeders with homemade sugar water nectar.Peter: The podcast series Dolly Parton's America. Kaiser: The movie The Green Knight, based on the Arthurian legend, by David Lowery. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This week on Sinica, we’re pleased to present a conversation with Ambassador Huáng Píng 黄屏, a veteran Chinese diplomat who has been consul general of China’s New York Consulate since November 2018. He formerly served as China’s ambassador to Zimbabwe, and as consul general of China’s Chicago Consulate. The interview, recorded on July 22, covers a range of topics in U.S.-China relations from human rights to Taiwan, and from COVID-19 to China’s so-called “wolf warrior diplomacy.”13:22: What Americans should understand about the Communist Party of China38:15: Evaluating the Biden administration’s position on China41:25: The American perspective on Taiwan46:20: The impact of the pandemic on Chinese people50:54: Beijing’s policies on Xinjiang A transcript of this episode is available on SupChina.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This week on Sinica, Kaiser chats with Bill Bikales, who recently returned to the U.S. after 15 years in China as a developmental economist with the United Nations. In June, Bill published a paper titled “Reflections on Poverty Reduction in China” for the Swiss Agency for Development and Cooperation (SDC), raising important questions about China’s claims about poverty reduction but giving due credit for its impressive successes. In the paper, Bill situates the Chinese leadership’s bold push for the eradication of extreme poverty in a historical context, questions Beijing’s use of 1978 as a benchmark for measuring progress in poverty reduction, and offers suggestions for what Beijing must do to make poverty reduction sustainable.5:38: How the significance of poverty relief in China’s history has shaped the CCP’s priorities22:15: The detriments of the hukou (户口 hùkǒu) system on reducing poverty sustainably 46:00: Addressing the next set of poverty challenges and gaps in the current social protection system51:30: Deducing lessons from China’s poverty reduction achievements A transcript of this episode is available on SupChina.com.Recommendations: Bill: Destiny of the Republic, by Candice Millard, and the car-sharing company Turo. Kaiser: The audiobook version of The Ill-Made Knight, by Christian Cameron, and the 9/11 Memorial & Museum.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.