Episode OverviewMarty Haught joins Robby to discuss the sustainability of open-source projects, the challenges of maintaining RubyGems, and why the metaphor of technical debt may not fully capture how software ages. Instead, he suggests thinking of it as drift—the natural misalignment of software with its evolving purpose over time.They also dig into security challenges in package management, including how Ruby Central worked with Trail of Bits to audit RubyGems. Marty also shares insights on the EU Cyber Resilience Act and how it might affect open-source maintainers worldwide. Finally, they explore how companies can support open-source sustainability through corporate sponsorships and individual contributions.Topics Discussed[00:01:00] The two pillars of maintainable software: good tests and readability.[00:02:40] From Perl to Ruby: How readability changed Marty's approach to programming.[00:07:20] Is technical debt the right metaphor? Why "drift" might be a better fit.[00:11:00] What does it take to maintain RubyGems? Marty's role at Ruby Central.[00:14:00] Security in package management: How RubyGems handles vulnerabilities.[00:16:40] The role of external audits: Partnering with Trail of Bits for security improvements.[00:20:40] EU Cyber Resilience Act: How new regulations might affect open-source projects.[00:26:00] Funding open source: Why corporate sponsorships are becoming essential.[00:33:40] Advocating for technical debt work in teams: How to make a compelling case.[00:38:20] Processes in distributed teams: Balancing structure with flexibility.Key TakeawaysTechnical debt is often misunderstood. The real issue may not be shortcuts taken in the past, but the way software naturally drifts from its original purpose.Security in package management is a growing concern. Open-source ecosystems like RubyGems require continuous investment to remain secure.Open source needs sustainable funding. Relying on volunteers is not a long-term solution—companies need to contribute via corporate sponsorships.Advocating for code improvements requires strategy. Engineers should frame technical debt discussions around business impact, not just code quality.Resources MentionedMarty Haught on LinkedInMarty Haught on TwitterRuby CentralRubyGemsAuditing the Ruby Ecosystem’s Central Package Repository – Trail of BitsEU Cyber Resilience Act OverviewWhat the EU's New Software Legislation Means for Developers (GitHub Blog)Ruby Central Open Source Program – Get InvolvedCorporate Sponsors ProgramGive and Take by Adam GrantConnect with MartyLinkedInTwitterBlueSkyThanks to Our Sponsor!Need a smoother way to share your team's inbox? Jelly’s got you covered! 🍇✨Jelly is perfect for small teams — because it was built by a small team. If you struggle with keeping your team’s knowledge organized and accessible, check out Jelly, a lightweight knowledge management tool designed to make finding answers easy—without all the clutter of traditional wikis. No more sticky situations or knowledge gaps—Jelly keeps everything smooth and shareable.Bonus for Maintainable listeners Get 20% off your first year at letsjelly.com/maintainable. Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.

Mike Bowers, Chief Architect at FairCom, has spent decades navigating the evolution of database technology. In this conversation, he and Robby explore the challenges of maintaining a 40+ year-old codebase, balancing legacy constraints with forward-thinking design, and the realities of technical debt.Mike shares how FairCom transitioned from ISAM-based databases to modern JSON-driven APIs, the trade-offs between strict schemas and flexible document stores, and how software architecture plays a critical role in long-term maintainability. He also explains why human-readable JSON simplifies debugging, how documentation-driven development improves API usability, and why many software teams struggle with refactoring at the right time.Topics covered[00:05:32] The role of software architecture in long-term maintainability[00:10:45] Why FairCom's legacy ISAM technology still matters today[00:14:20] Transitioning to a JSON-based API for modern developers[00:19:40] The challenges of maintaining 40+ years of C code[00:24:10] Technical debt: What it really means and how to manage it[00:28:50] The trade-offs between strict schemas and flexible NoSQL approaches[00:34:00] When to refactor vs. when to start over from scratch[00:38:15] The influence of product management thinking on software architecture[00:42:30] Advice for engineers considering a shift into architecture rolesResources MentionedFairComMike Bowers on LinkedInFairCom on Twitter/XBook Recommendation:The Influential Product Manager by MSc BuceroThanks to Our Sponsor!Need a smoother way to share your team's inbox? Jelly’s got you covered! 🍇✨Jelly is perfect for small teams — because it was built by a small team. If you struggle with keeping your team’s knowledge organized and accessible, check out Jelly, a lightweight knowledge management tool designed to make finding answers easy—without all the clutter of traditional wikis. No more sticky situations or knowledge gaps—Jelly keeps everything smooth, and shareable.Bonus for Maintainable listeners Get 20% off your first year at letsjelly.com/maintainable, Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.

Lorna Mitchell, an open source advocate and technical writer, shares her expertise on creating documentation that engineers actually read. She discusses the vital role of documentation in software maintainability and the challenges of reviving old projects like RST2PDF. Lorna emphasizes API governance and introduces four levels of API readiness to enhance usability. Additionally, she shares practical tips for improving technical writing using tools and strategies that make complex information accessible and relatable for developers.

Joining the conversation is Carola Lilienthal, a Software Architect and Managing Director at WPS, known for her expertise in technical debt and software maintainability. She delves into the cognitive science behind software architecture and emphasizes the importance of simplicity and modularity. Carola introduces the Modularity Maturity Index (MMI) as a tool for assessing system health. She also shares methods for improving legacy systems, fostering domain-driven design, and effectively onboarding developers in complex environments.

Joel Hawksley, a Staff Software Engineer at GitHub specializing in accessibility and frontend architecture, shares valuable insights on the hidden costs of frontend complexity. He emphasizes the importance of changeability in well-maintained software. The conversation dives into GitHub's approach to accessibility as both a business and legal imperative. Hawksley discusses the paradox of design consistency versus the need for flexibility in their extensive design system and advocates for using off-the-shelf components to ease complexities for smaller teams.

Austin Story, Senior Engineering Director at Doximity, dives into the art of creating maintainable software. He discusses critical traits like testability and simplicity, along with the principle of YAGNI that ensures only necessary features are built. Austin shares insights on migrating to a federated GraphQL architecture from a monolith, addressing both benefits and challenges. He emphasizes the importance of collaboration between data and application teams, using tools like Kafka, to enhance workflow efficiency. Tune in for a masterclass on software evolution!

Topics CoveredCharacteristics of Maintainable SoftwareDan emphasizes the importance of internal consistency in codebases, automated tests, and proper documentation to preserve decision-making context.[00:05:32] Internal consistency: Why it matters.[00:08:09] Lessons from maintaining legacy codebases.Working with Legacy SystemsDan shares stories of upgrading ORM frameworks, introducing caching systems, and transitioning to bug tracking tools.[00:09:52] Replacing custom ORM systems with Hibernate and Ehcache.[00:13:10] Tackling high-risk components with automated testing.Modern Authentication ChallengesAs part of FusionAuth, Dan discusses building developer-friendly tools that balance local flexibility with SaaS convenience.[00:21:05] FusionAuth’s role in secure authentication.[00:28:13] Testing authentication flows locally and in CI pipelines.Navigating Constraints in TeamsAdvice for managing technical debt, advocating for team priorities, and communicating with stakeholders during lean times.[00:16:39] Communicating the impact of resource constraints.[00:19:27] Tracing single requests to understand complex systems.Industry Trends and AI's RoleFrom managed services to the impact of AI on coding languages, Dan reflects on how the industry continues to evolve.[00:35:05] Managed services as accelerators for maintainability.[00:41:25] The potential and limits of AI in software development.Key TakeawaysConsistency and documentation in codebases reduce cognitive overhead for developers.Understand how your software fits into the business to prioritize effectively.AI might reshape the industry, but it won’t replace the need for thoughtful problem-solving.Opinionated frameworks like Ruby on Rails continue to offer exceptional developer ergonomics.Resources MentionedFusionAuth BlogDan's Personal BlogCIAM Weekly NewsletterDan’s Book: Letters to a New DeveloperZen and the Art of Motorcycle MaintenanceThe Asimov story mentionedTry FusionAuthDownload FusionAuth: Get started with the self-hosted version today.Free Trial of FusionAuth: Experience the FusionAuth cloud for free!Connect with DanLinkedInBlueSkyThanks to Our Sponsor!Turn hours of debugging into just minutes! AppSignal is a performance monitoring and error-tracking tool designed for Ruby, Elixir, Python, Node.js, Javascript, and other frameworks.It offers six powerful features with one simple interface, providing developers with real-time insights into the performance and health of web applications.Keep your coding cool and error-free, one line at a time! Use the code maintainable to get a 10% discount for your first year. Check them out! Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.

In this episode of Maintainable, Robby speaks with Tom Johnson, Co-Founder and CEO of Multiplayer. Tom shares his perspectives on the evolving landscape of distributed systems, the challenges of maintaining legacy software, and how innovative tools are transforming the way teams collaborate.Topics DiscussedCharacteristics of well-maintained software, from system-level documentation to effective workflows.The importance of debugging tools tailored for distributed systems.Anecdotes about managing technical debt, including cutting off a CEO’s database access.How auto-documentation and design branches in Multiplayer streamline team collaboration.Practical strategies for tackling technical debt and fostering developer morale.Key Takeaways[00:01:16] Defining Well-Maintained Software: Tom explains why documentation, tests, and collaborative workflows are essential.[00:06:14] The Case for Locking Down Production: Lessons learned from a humorous but cautionary tale.[00:18:11] Debugging Distributed Systems: How Multiplayer’s tools simplify the debugging process.[00:25:00] Design Branches and Team Collaboration: Enhancing communication through shared documentation.[00:31:39] Prioritizing Technical Debt: Identifying customer and developer pain points.Resources MentionedMultiplayerTom Johnson on LinkedInTom Johnson on TwitterBook Recommendation: Making Comics by Scott McCloudThanks to Our Sponsor!Turn hours of debugging into just minutes! AppSignal is a performance monitoring and error-tracking tool designed for Ruby, Elixir, Python, Node.js, Javascript, and other frameworks.It offers six powerful features with one simple interface, providing developers with real-time insights into the performance and health of web applications.Keep your coding cool and error-free, one line at a time! Use the code maintainable to get a 10% discount for your first year. Check them out! Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.

In this episode of Maintainable, Robby speaks with Gulcin Yildirim Jelinek, a Staff Database Engineer at Xata. Joining from Prague, Czech Republic, Gulcin discusses her experiences working with legacy databases, the evolution of Postgres, and her passion for building accessible tech communities.Gulcin shares practical insights into modern database management, including the rise of automation tools like YAML and Pgroll, as well as how extensions like pgvector are unlocking new possibilities for Postgres users. Her work with the Prague PostgreSQL Meetup and Diva Conference highlights her dedication to fostering inclusive and welcoming tech communities.Episode Highlights[00:05:32] What Makes Databases Maintainable? Gulcin reflects on documentation, onboarding, and usability.[00:15:10] From Legacy to Modern: Challenges with legacy systems in hospitals and banks and the transition to Postgres.[00:22:18] Pgvector and Vector Search: Introducing Postgres extensions to enable vector-based queries.[00:28:12] Scaling Automation with YAML: How YAML transformed database management and DevOps workflows.[00:33:00] Fostering Community and Accessibility: Gulcin’s work with Postgres Europe and Diva Conference.[00:36:15] Mythology with a Twist: Book recommendations featuring Circe and Elektra.Key TakeawaysDocumentation Matters: A well-documented system ensures effective onboarding for both developers and end-users.Automation is Key: Tools like YAML and Pgroll streamline database operations, minimizing downtime and manual intervention.Inclusivity in Tech: Conferences and communities should prioritize accessibility, from catering to translation services.Vector Databases in Postgres: Pgvector is making Postgres a viable option for AI-driven workloads, eliminating the need for separate systems.Resources MentionedXata BlogPgrollPrague PostgreSQL MeetupDiva: Dive into AI ConferenceKadin Yazilimci (Women Developers of Turkey)Circe by Madeline MillerElektra by Jennifer SaintConnect with GulcinLinkedInPrague PostgreSQL MeetupDiva ConferenceBook Recommendations:CirceElektraLinks:Kadin Yazilimci (Women Developers of Turkey)Diva: Dive into AI ConferencePrague PostgreSQL MeetupOn XXata BlogPgrollThanks to Our Sponsor!Turn hours of debugging into just minutes! AppSignal is a performance monitoring and error-tracking tool designed for Ruby, Elixir, Python, Node.js, Javascript, and other frameworks.It offers six powerful features with one simple interface, providing developers with real-time insights into the performance and health of web applications.Keep your coding cool and error-free, one line at a time! Use the code maintainable to get a 10% discount for your first year. Check them out! Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.

Robby sits down with Justine Gehring, an AI Research Engineer at Moderne, to explore how AI tools are transforming code maintenance and scalability. They dive into the unique ways AI can support refactoring for massive and legacy codebases, from retrieval-augmented generation (RAG) to lossless semantic trees, and discuss how developers can benefit from AI-assisted planning and refactoring.Justine shares her background transitioning from academia to industry and reflects on the essential role of reproducibility in AI, why maintainable code is often overlooked in research, and the challenges of balancing innovation with real-world reliability in software projects.Topics DiscussedWhat Makes Software Maintainable: Justine’s take on good documentation, reusable code, and ensuring new team members can quickly navigate a codebase. [00:00:42]Academia vs. Industry in Code Maintainability: Why reproducibility and code maintenance often diverge in research settings, and how industry standards address this gap. [00:01:14]From Academia to AI Engineering: Justine shares her journey and how her background in machine learning led to a career in AI-focused software maintenance. [00:04:48]Scaling Refactoring with OpenRewrite: An introduction to OpenRewrite, the open-source tool that facilitates large-scale code transformations, developed by Moderne. [00:12:15]Lossless Semantic Trees: The benefits of LSTs for detailed code analysis, retaining essential syntax and type information critical for reliable AI refactoring. [00:20:24]Retrieval-Augmented Generation (RAG): Justine explains RAG’s significance in allowing AI models to provide context-specific responses without heavy re-training. [00:26:00]Trust and Validation in AI-Generated Code: The importance of robust test cases and human oversight when leveraging AI-generated code to avoid cascading errors. [00:31:36]AI as a Planning Tool for Refactoring Projects: Justine’s insights on using AI as a collaborative coding assistant, offering developers suggestions for planning refactoring and maintenance tasks. [00:35:24]Real-World Example of Scaling Refactoring: Justine recounts a case study where Moderne used OpenRewrite to facilitate large-scale code migration involving multiple frameworks. [00:42:00]Advocating for AI Tools in Code Maintenance: Tips for developers interested in introducing AI tools and approaches within their teams or organizations. [00:42:31]Key TakeawaysAI Supports Reproducibility and Reliability: Ensuring reproducibility in AI-driven tools can enhance both credibility and usability for complex codebases.Prioritize Planning Before Refactoring: Understanding code dependencies and structure is key to successful refactoring; AI tools like OpenRewrite can automate targeted changes.Human Expertise Remains Essential: AI can be an effective coding assistant, but human oversight is necessary to ensure accuracy and quality.Experiment and Scale: Start with small, impactful AI-assisted refactoring recipes and scale up once the process is reliable, saving significant development hours over time.ResourcesModerneJustine Gehring’s LinkedInOpenRewrite DocumentationGetting to Yes by Roger Fisher and William UryThanks to Our Sponsor!Turn hours of debugging into just minutes! AppSignal is a performance monitoring and error-tracking tool designed for Ruby, Elixir, Python, Node.js, Javascript, and other frameworks.It offers six powerful features with one simple interface, providing developers with real-time insights into the performance and health of web applications.Keep your coding cool and error-free, one line at a time! Use the code maintainable to get a 10% discount for your first year. Check them out! Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.