Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

Michelle and Steve Shaw are the parents of four children, three of whom have been diagnosed with neurological disabilities, ranging from ADHD to anomalies in the brain. They are active members of the Church and live in the Seattle area; Michelle serves in her Stake Primary Presidency and Steve serves on the Stake High Council. Michelle is also a special education teacher, and teacher of the blind and visually impaired, so she brings additional perspective to the issues that members with disabilities face as they try to integrate with Church culture. I am grateful to Michelle and Steve, and vicariously to their children, for having the courage to start having conversations about ways that we can make sure that each member of the Church, regardless of their varying capacities, feels safe and seen in the Church setting. Michelle and Steve talk about starting their family and having all of the hopes that many of us have at that stage of life. They describe having certain assumptions about the role that the Church would play in the lives of their children; they anticipated their kids enjoying primary and youth programs, and having a sense of safety and belonging that a ward family might provide. They also talk about their growing disappointment, as they have watched their children struggle in many of the settings and programs that the Church provides for children and youth. Michelle and Steve know that other members of the Church have good intentions, and that no one intends harm towards their children; they also know the heartache that accompanies watching their kids feel misunderstood, or “othered” by well-meaning members. They describe what it is like for them to grapple with the paradox of belonging to our family-centered Church, while also knowing that their family cannot always fully participate due to limitations in the flexibility of Church culture and assumptions others make about their kids. Michelle and Steve describe ways that they believe Church culture can improve so that no one feels “othered” and so that all of us can enjoy worshipping together. As a side note, I’m focusing only on sharing stories associated with the Queer-LDS experience now. However, if you would like to share your story about a different Church- or gospel-related topic on Listen, Learn and Love, please contact Tonya about the possibility of working with her as my guest-host (e-mail Tonya at tonya@cottonwood.care).

My friend Rylee Burningham (he/they) joins us to share their story. Rylee (married father of 7, mid-40’s. RM, believing/active LDS, IT professional) talks about their feelings of gender dysphoria from their earliest memories. Rylee (who is doing the podcast to give others hope walking this road) talks about their journey of self-discovery, navigating faith and identity, lessons learned and hopes for the future. Rylee talks about things they are doing within the new transgender handbook policies to stay temple-worthy and to fully participate in the Church. At the same time, Rylee talks about the sacrifice to make this possible and also how the handbook can cause transgender members to feel like second class citizens. Rylee and I talk about how gender dysphoria is a recognized/established health issue with guidelines to feel better—and how staying fully active in the church takes some of those guidelines off the table. Rylee also talks about how his gender dysphoria is the bottom of the iceberg—but was presenting with depression and anxiety (top of the iceberg stuff that is easier to see) and how he needed to recognize/address gender dysphoria to improve his mental health. Rylee talks about his work to take shame out of his life for never fitting into the cultural expectations for a man—and his firm testimony that he is created as intended by our Heavenly Parents and this “is a beautiful part of who I am” that doesn’t need fixing in the resurrection. If you have feelings of gender dysphoria (or looking to better support transgender/non-binary Latter-day Saint), please listen to Rylee and their deeply insightful and spiritual journey. Thank you, Rylee, for your courage to be on the podcast. I was so moved listening to your story. You are so brave. We need good people like you in our Church and society. You help us to expand the boarders of Zion so more feel welcome, needed, and belonging. Links: Rylee’s email: rylee.burn@icloud.com Instagram: @transformingzion Website: transformzion.org

My friend John Crane (lives in Austin TX, grew up in Oregon/Washington, Sweden RM 1966-68, married a woman, has 4 kids and many grandkids, divorced, been with husband Thom for over 35 years, no longer LDS), joins us to share his story being gay and a deep believer in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. John starts with his growing up years and finding his spiritual home in the Church and then serving a successful mission in Sweden. John talks about getting married to a woman (being more of a “church assignment”) and having 4 kids. John talks about that marriage ending and deciding to date men (which led to being excommunicated—John fulfilled a church assignment the night before). John talks about painful/messy experiences dating men (and being in unhealthy relationships) and continue to pray to God for direction. John talks about finding his husband Thom (also a RM) being the answer to his prayers (and Thom’s prayers) and how they built a life—and beautiful love story—together. John—a deeply emotional and spiritual man—talks about his love of Heavenly Father, the Savior, the Gospel of Jesus Christ and scriptures and the many deeply spiritual experiences that are part of his journey (including baptizing his Dad). John talks about his husband Thom and their deep love and companionship (and being there for each other as they get older) and Thom’s dedicated temple family history work and his support of his kids/grandchildren who have/will serve missions. I’m so grateful for John’s courage to be on the podcast and share his story and his insights into the character of God/our Savior and their constant role in our lives. You are a good man, John. Your story will help so many. Links: John’s e-mail: john144@gmail.com The inspiration for John’s e-mail: John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

My friend Guillermo Lemus (age 30, BYU grad student, BYU-Idaho grad, married, RM) joins us to share his multi-year journey to process the complicated aspects of our Church and find a way to remain a member of the Church. In sharing his story, Guillermo normalizes a faith crisis/expansion (including all the pain one feels on this road) and what he (and other did) to help/support him. Guillermo uses the model of the “Garden/Fall/Redemption” to frame up a faith expansion in a positive and on-shaming way. Guillermo shares a beautiful poem (“Lord of the 4th Watch—see show notes) and also talks about self-love. If you are in faith expansion and want to find a way to authentically stay in the Church, Guillermo story will help you (it helps me!). And if you are looking to better support our good members walking this road, Guillermo story/insights will help you better support others. Thank you, Guillermo, for being on the podcast. You represent everything good about our Church and world. You are a good man and friend. Your story will help so many. Links: Guillermo’s IG: @glemoose and @edens_exodus Twitter: @GELemus13 Richard Ostler’s chapter 10 (from his book Listen, Learn and Love: Improving Latter-day Saint Culture) on Ministering to Those With Questions: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/tvlalac35zozq8625hc4r/Chapter-10-Ministering-To-Those-With-Questions.-Listen-Learn-and-Love-Improving-Latter-day-Saint-Culture.pdf?rlkey=e2fdmkkwwa3pu80n33ighncix&dl=0

My friend and mentor Bryce Cook (married, father of 6 children/7 grandchildren) joins us to talk about how he and his wife Sara navigated the road of having two gay sons (which started in 2003 when their son Trevor came out as gay). Bryce talks about how his worldview of gay people dramatically changed upon learning his good/talented/spiritual son is gay. Bryce talks about Trevor “wanting companionship” just like he saw with his parents (Trevor married his husband Ben in 2023). Their third son Tanner also came out as gay after he saw how his family responded to Trevor’s coming out. Bryce talks about deep spiritual promptings that he and Sara needed to do something with the knowledge they gained and not be silent, which led to the formation of All Arizona in 2012. Bryce talks about how their home became a safe place for queer Latter-day Saints and the resulting spiritual/sacred experiences that followed—and how the annual All Arizona conferences provided support/community to LGBTQ members and education/understanding for their family members and church leaders. Bryce talks about the promptings he received to write about this topic, which became a groundbreaking widely-circulated essay called “What Do We Know of God’s Will For His LGBT Children? An Examination of the LDS Church’s Position on Homosexuality (see show notes). This essay (which has helped me better understand this issue) is powerful and brings more insight/understanding (and possibilities) for queer Latter-day Saints and those who support them. Thank you, Bryce and Sara (and your wonderful family) for teaching how to better love and support. Your story is a beautiful family love story. I encourage everyone to listen to Bryce’s podcast and read his essay—I believe you will have better tools to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and their families. Links: Bryce’s essay: mormonlgbtquestions.com/ All Arizona: www.allarizona.org/ Bryce/Sara’s earlier podcast (episode 116): soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-116-bryce-and-sara-cook-active-lds-6-children-including-two-gay-sons

** Trigger Warning. This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call, test, chat 988 ** My friend Seth Price (Canadian, Age 20, Service Missionary) joins us to bravely share his story. Seth talks about dealing with and then accepting being called on a service mission (finished July 2024) when he always wanted to serve a proselyting mission. Seth talks about learning how to accept his circumstances because of his desire to serve Christ and help others come unto Christ and feel His love and acceptance. Seth talks about how he learned “he is not meant to fit the mold” and how that allows him to help love and support others—and help them find Christ. Seth talks about his journey to accept being gay through middle school and high school (including times when he went back in the closet given the reactions of others). Seth talks about his hopes for the future and his love of our Savior. Seth also talks about his brother Kaleb who died of suicide in 2022 and how he is navigating losing his brother. I am so impressed with the spiritual maturity of Seth, his commitment to doing good, and his love of everyone (Seth’s Facebook profile says “God has never met a person He did not love”). It is people like Seth that give me hope for the future of our Church and society. Thank you, Seth, for being on the podcast—you are a good man. You have a great life ahead of you!

My friend Lori LeVar Pierce (grew up in the South, BA and MBA from BYU, corporate executive, married mother of three, teacher, lives in Columbus, Mississippi) joins us to introduce listeners to Exponent II—which is celebrating its 50th anniversary. Lori talks about the purpose of Exponent II (including a quarterly magazine, a blog, annual retreat) as it supports Mormon women and gender minorities. Lori also shares insights for other Latter-day Saints who are navigating the sometimes-complex road of career, family, marriage, and church participation—including where women’s voices sometimes are not fully sought after or valued. Lori also talks about how to best support her three children—all of which are queer—including a transgender (they/them) child, and two bisexual children. I was so moved with Lori’s perspective and principals to help other parents support their queer kids. This family story is a beautiful love story. Thank you, Lori, for being on the podcast. Your mature and thoughtful voice and perspective is needed. I learned so much from you. I’m grateful for your work (and many others) at Exponent II as we work to expand the borders of Zion where more feel welcome, needed and a greater sense of belonging. I encourage everyone to listen to this episode and check out Exponent II. Links: Exponent II: exponentii.org/ Exponent II fundraiser: exponentii.org/support/ Subscribe to the Exponent II Magazine: exponentii.org/product/subscription/ Lori’s e-mail: board@exponentii.org Lori’s blog post mentioned in the podcast: exponentii.org/blog/guest-post-what-i-wanted-to-say-today-in-testimony-meeting/ Candice Wendt blog post mentioned in the podcast: exponentii.org/blog/guest-post-the-insidious-exchange-of-community-for-covenants/

My friends Jessica Salter and Jett Atwood (gay Latter-day Saint women in a same-sex marriage, attend and believe in Church) join us to share their stories. Jett & Jessie (who were married on June 15, 2024) talk about their supportive ward in Utah County (including their bishopric attending their reception) and being so fortunate to have many in their ward “catch” them. Jett (who is older than Jessie; Washington DC South RM, gifted cartoonist) talks about her journey to accept that her sexual orientation is part of her divine nature. Jessie (mother of 3 kids, former adjunct professor at BYU) also talks about accepting her sexual orientation and how they found each other. Both women talk about their supportive ward, principles to better support queer Latter-day Saints, the resurrection, focusing on what is in their control, their love of the church, and the beauty of their marriage and family. Thank you, Jessie and Jett, for sharing your story. You are two wonderful women—doing much to bless and help others. I’m glad the two of you found each other. Links: Instagram account: @headedtonineveh

My friends Sarah and Jeff Case (mixed-orientation marriage, active LDS, two queer kids) join us to update listeners on their story, share principles to keep families together, and the new Gather for Youth (ages 14-18) at the Gather Conference (Sept 13-14th, 2024). Sarah (middle school teacher, straight) and Jeff (clinical psychologist, gay) talk about a “process versus outcome” perspective to raising kids, focusing on preserving the relationship, and finding peace when children step away from the Church. Sarah and Jeff also talk about the new Gather for Youth (purpose, focus, who is invited, scope of activities, etc) that is for queer youth (and their friends/allies) to help them feel loved, supported and hopeful. I was so moved listening to Sarah and Jeff (a beautiful family love story) and hearing about Gather for Youth (so excited for this group)—and all the many insights to help better support queer Latter-day Saints and their families as we work to better create Zion. Thank you, Sarah and Jeff, for your needed work in our community—you two are two of my heroes! You are doing so much good. I encourage everyone to listen to your story and to learn more about Gather for Youth. Links: Gather 2024 Registration: gatherconference.regfox.com/2024-gather-conference More about Gather for Youth: liftandlove.org/gatheryouth Jeff’s 2023 Gather Presentation: www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XSbxq1iFvs Jeff Case e-mail: rjeffreycase@gmail.com Sarah Case e-mail: musicmomsarah@gmail.com Gather Instagram: @gatherconf Jeff Case Prior Podcast: soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-86-dr-jeff-case-phd-in-clinical-psychology-from-byu-active-lds-understanding-suicide Jeff and Sarah Case Prior Podcast: soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-92-jeff-and-sarah-case-married-parents-of-three-active-lds-mixed-orientation-marriage

My friend Brenden Krogh (age 25, grew up in Grantsville/Mona Utah, Lives in St George, Active LDS, RM) joins us to share his story. Brenden talks about his journey to understand and accept being gay and the role of his Heavenly Parents and the Savior in this process—including personal revelation that he is created as intended and he should feel no shame for being gay. Brenden talks about his supportive family (so many powerful examples), church leaders/members, and friends to love, accept, and support him. Brenden talks about how their love and support helped him to do the same. Brenden talks about personal revelation through music, church talks, and scriptures to hear God’s love/voice in his life. He talks about a YSA Ward that made the focus not to get married—but to help everyone come unto Christ. Brenden talks about the helpful things people do/say when he opens up about the complexity of his situation. If you are a queer Latter-day Saint wondering how our Heavenly Parents feel about you and the ability of the Savior to walk with you, please listen to this podcast. It will help you better love/accept yourself and find hope in your future. And if you are a parent, friend, or ally—this podcast will give you more tools to support queer Latter-day Saints. Thank you, Brenden, for being how you are and for your courage to share your story. You are brave. You are a good man, and we are so fortunate to have your insights to help us all better come unto Christ. Your story will help so many. You have a great life ahead of you! Links: Brenden’s Facebook: www.facebook.com/brenden.krogh Brenden’s Instagram: @brenden_krogh24601 Charlie Bird’s “Without the Mask” book: www.amazon.com/dp/1629727849 Charlie Bird’s “Expanding the Boarders of Zion” book: www.amazon.com/dp/B0BSMNB3G7 Brenden’s coming out post on Facebook: www.facebook.com/brenden.krogh/posts/pfbid02qZhfHE1NhQZAaiQ6Wo3dcbyydwBkLv1RjYb33nB7xcrVAkWqUhMFWief3XcvJdMPl Gather Conference (Sept 2024) Registration: gatherconference.regfox.com/2024-gather-conference