Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

My friend Sue Robbins (in her 60’s, military career, moved to Utah 2004) joins us to share her story. Sue talks about knowing at a young age something was different about her—and while those feelings existed there was no understanding in society about how she felt. Sue talks about gradually coming out to herself and others and “transitioned to living life authentically as a woman in 2014.” Sue then talks about her bridge building work in Utah (on various boards and organizations) to bring more understanding of and support to transgender people—including her work with our state legislature. Sue also talks about how being transgender is not a mental illness but a medical issue and should be treated as such (just like other medical issues like a broken arm or illness). Sue talks about the role of therapists and principles to find the right one to help someone who is transgender. Sue is a steady voice in this space and has been on this road for a long time. She has chosen to stay away from the vitriol and unhelpful rhetoric—and instead build bridge of understanding. If you are looking to better understand and support our transgender friends, I encourage you to listen to Sue’s story. I encourage all of us to learn about transgender people from listening to many of their stories—and not from spaces of fear or political rhetoric. Thank you Sue for being on the podcast. You are awesome. Thanks for your great work in our community! Links: Sue’s website: sueinut.com/ Sue’s Twitter: twitter.com/srobbins31 Other Trans Podcasts: listenlearnandlove.org/transgender-and-more-podcasts LDS Church Website: www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/transgender Ministering to LGBTQ Latter-day Saints Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143 Richard Ostler Book: Embracing LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: Deseret Book: deseretbook.com/p/listen-learn-and-love-embracing-lgbtq-latter-day-saints?variant_id=189035-paperback Amazon: amazon.com/dp/1462135773

My friend Julie Rose joins us to talk about BYUradio’s show (and now podcast) called “Top of Mind”. It is a production that talks about tough topics (such as politics, social issues) in a nuanced, respectful way. The show is not out to change your mind—but to “lower the temperature” and model how to talk about important subjects to keep us unified as Latter-day Saints. Julie (a season journalism veteran with over has a 20+-year of work—including stints in California and Charlotte, NC) brings her thoughtful voice to “Top of Mind” to help us be curious, informed, engaged, and willing to learn. Julie also shares some of her own story as a Latter-day Saint (in her late 40s, never married, serving as the YW president in her ward) and what she does to stay engaged in the Church and what we can do to help everyone feel a sense of belonging. I am deeply moved by the efforts of Julie, and everyone involved in the “Top of Mind” podcast and encourage everyone to check it out. Not only are the topics excellent, but the respectful approach helps us model how to discuss sensitive topics in our circles. I am also deeply moved by Julie’s personal story. Thank you, Julie, for being on the podcast and all you do to create Zion. Links: Top of Mind of podcast: https://www.byuradio.org/topofmind (or just look for Top of Mind with Julie Rose on any podcast app!) First Presidency letter: https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders/2023/6/6/23751117/first-presidency-letter-emphasizes-participation-in-elections-reaffirms-political-neutrality Letter published in The Boston Globe by The Abortion Talks participants: https://www.feminist.com/resources/artspeech/genwom/talkingwith.html The Abortion Talks film: https://abortiontalks.com/ Top of Mind episode about The Abortion Talks: www.byuradio.org/top-of-mind-how-to-talk-about-abortion

My friends, this is one of the most unique and powerful podcasts we’ve ever done. I encourage ward councils, local leaders, and families to listen to this podcast to better understand how to love and support our LGBTQ neighbors and friends—and really anyone different than us. Dan Link, Kristin Sokol, and Miki Eberhart join in this episode to share a remarkable story of a ward family who learn to love and then truly show up for two gay dads in their very homogenous Herriman neighborhood. It’s a story of love, tragedy and how the power of friendship and the spirit of fellowship moved everyone closer to the Savior. Dan talks about growing up in the Church, serving a mission (in the 70’s), but never feeling accepted or normal as a gay Latter-day Saint. He shares his story about finding the love of his life in Ryan and building a life and family together. Hear their story about being invited to the Ward Trunk-or-Treat in Herriman, Utah. This event, led to Dan and Ryan being curious about what attending church would be like. Dan shares the journey with health challenges his husband Ryan faced and the unwavering ward love and support they received in that time, including seven months of meals that were delivered while Ryan was in the hospital during 2020. Ryan passed away on July 25, 2021, and the ward continued to rally around them, fully participating in Ryan’s Celebration Of Life in the local ward building. Dan talks about his loving Bishop who asked him to serve as the Ward Librarian and how it led to a full return to church activity. Dan talks about doing the Temple proxy work for Ryan (including baptizing their son for Ryan). Dan talks about his continued love for Ryan and how much he misses him and feels peace and hope for their ability to be together again. Miki Eberhardt, a Stake Relief Society President in another Herriman Utah Stake, heard this story from her friend Kristin Sokol who is in Dan’s ward. After hearing about this modern miracle, Miki felt impressed to share Dan’s story in her series of Ward Conference talks. She talks about how loving our neighbor is easy when we believe the same things, cheer for the same sports teams—but counts that only as preschool discipleship. Real discipleship is when we figure out how to love our neighbor when they are nothing like us. Kristin Sokol, Dan’s longtime friend and neighbor, talks firsthand about how this miracle unfolded in her homogenous Herriman neighborhood and ward family and her love for the Link Family. Thank you, Dan, Miki, and Kristin, for being on the podcast. You are all awesome! Links: Ministering to LGBTQ Latter-day Saints Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143 Richard Ostler Book: Embracing LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: Deseret Book: deseretbook.com/p/listen-learn-and-love-embracing-lgbtq-latter-day-saints?variant_id=189035-paperback Amazon: amazon.com/dp/1462135773 Index of Podcasts: listenlearnandlove.org/podcasts

In one of our most moving episodes, my friend Tiffany joins us to share her story for the first time on a public platform. Tiffany talks about her extremely difficult journey to find joy in the Church and in her life throughout many life events that made her question herself, her faith, and even a belief in God. She discusses some of the traumatic events in her life, including multiple sexual assaults, racism, generational trauma, homelessness and alcoholism that broke her spirit and any faith in the Church, the priesthood and leaders. A huge advocate of therapy, Tiffany tells how beloved therapists helped her come to terms with her past and helped her look forward to an unlimited future and learn how to love herself as God does. Through therapy, beloved friends (especially queer ones- in and out of the Church), trusted church members and life changing missionaries, Tiffany has now been able to find hope, love and acceptance in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Tiffany also talks of what can only be described as miraculous personal moments with Apostles of the Lord that prove how much our Heavenly Father loves his children and is aware of our personal heartaches and wants to heal us. If you are working to see, understand and solve trauma in your life (including trauma resulting from difficult church experiences), Tiffany’s story with help you. If you want to better support those who are survivors of trauma, Tiffany’s story will help you. Thank you, Tiffany, for being on the podcast. You are brave. You are courageous. You are one of the best examples of the “wounded healer” I know.

My friends Brandon and Elizabeth Cardenaz (mid 30s, active LDS, married 12 years, 4 children with twins on the way) join us to share their story. Brandon talks about growing up in conservative communities with unkind and unhelpful things said about gay people and learning to separate that from the gospel of Jesus Christ. Brandon talks about how there were really no resources for a gay Latter-day Saint and doing the best he could to make his way forward concurrent with feelings a deep shame for his sexual orientation. Brandon talks about his decision to serve a mission and his deep testimony of our restored Church. Brandon talks about returning how from his mission and dating women. Brandon talks about coming out to his girlfriend (now his wife Elizabeth) as gay and her prayer to Heavenly Father on if she should marry Brandon. Elizabeth shares her answer to prayer to marry Brandon. Brandon and talk about an “intervention” to call off their marriage—the day before their temple marriage—as some family members became aware of Brandon’s sexual orientation. They share their decision to get married and how we should learn to honor individual personal revelation. They share how they later reconciled with these family members. This is a powerful podcast from a couple in a wonderful, sustainable, and healthy marriage—with a foundation of honestly, communication, and deep peace/no shame around Brandon’s sexuality. It is story that provides principles to help strengthen other marriages. Thank you, Brandon, and Elizabeth, for being on the podcast. I was deeply moved listening to your story. You are both so brave. You have a beautiful family, and your story will help so many! Links: Ministering to LGBTQ Latter-day Saints Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143 Richard Ostler Book: Embracing LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: Deseret Book: deseretbook.com/p/listen-learn-and-love-embracing-lgbtq-latter-day-saints?variant_id=189035-paperback Amazon: amazon.com/dp/1462135773 Index of Podcasts: listenlearnandlove.org/podcasts

My friend @ashley.c.dyer (active LDS RM, nurse, author, living in Boston) joins us to talk about her new book called “Women at the Well: Mini Devotionals for Women of Faith” that covers a range of important questions, like: - Am I truly enough just as I am? - Is there a way to make scripture study more fun? - How do I navigate a faith crisis? - What is grace? - Is it possible to share the gospel without feeling awkward? - How do I feel the Lord’s love in times of trial? Ashley shares some of her own story growing through “faith transformations” and principles to help others walking this beautiful road. She also talks about her love of and support for our LGBTQ friends including her cousin Matt Easton. She shared her experience visiting Matt before DC Pride and then finding herself in the Grand Marshall car with Matt and feeling the “most unconditional love (she) had ever experienced.” I was deeply moved listening to Ashley—her maturity, her service in our world, her new book, her ability to lift others, and her hope of the future of our Church and world. I encourage everyone to check out Ashley’s podcast and her new book. Links: Ashely’s IG account @ashley.c.dyer Ashely’s new book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1462145795

My friend Dr. Brian Willoughby (PhD in Family Social Science from University of Minnesota, LDS Convert, Noted Researcher and BYU Professor) joins us to talk about understanding and solving porn use. Dr. Willoughby (a frequent speaker on this subject) talks about what the research is teaching us about porn use and insights/principles to solve it. This is a unique podcast on this subject because Dr. Willoughby brings understanding from his own research (and other research) to better understand this important subject and practical principles/insights to end porn use. If you are working to understand and solve your own porn use, please listen to this podcast. It will help you. And if you are a parent or local leader desiring better tools to help others, this podcast will help you. I wish I had heard this podcast many years ago—before being a parent or before church assignments. Thank you, Dr. Willoughby, for your needed work in our community. Links: Dr. Willoughby BYU Web Site: https://familylife.byu.edu/directory/brian-willoughby Dr. Willoughby August 2023 Liahona Article: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2023/08/05-finding-hope-and-love-when-battling-pornography Richard Ostler chapter on Pornography (see chapter 4): https://www.listenlearnandlove.org/improving-latter-day-saint-culture

My friend Shannon Sears (age 51, out in 2022, father of three, lifelong church member with decades of church service, divorced, no longer active LDS) joins us to share his story. Shannon hopes that sharing his story will “help younger queer people see themselves as God sees them.” Shannon talks about how he felt not only broken, but “irreparably broken” and how he “never really thought of himself as gay—just terribly flawed”. Shannon shares 35 years of feeling this way (from being a young teen until the age of 50) and the immense and inescapable shame he felt for being gay (even though he was trying to be perfectly obedient). Shannon talks about how the shame kept him from feeling joy and peace in his life and falsely believed that God couldn’t love him. Shannon talks about feeling suicidal and close to acting on that plan—but praying to God and asking how God felt about him and receiving a powerful answer “I love you. I never intended to fix you. You are not broken. They may not want you, but you are Mine.” Shannon talks about the peace and acceptance this brought him—and how the shame disappeared—giving Shannon hope for his future. He talks about his continued desire to be a disciple of Christ, and how he feels he is better able to do that with his whole heart now. Shannon talks about coming out to his wife (he refers to her as the best woman he knows) and his children, and deciding to end his marriage. Shannon acknowledges the pain for his wife and children and trying to do the best he can, continuing his love for, and relationship with them and moving forward with his own life. He offers some thoughts on what helped him—and what didn't—from those around him during this difficult journey. This is a powerful episode to hear the story of Shannon—35 years in the closet navigating his sexual orientation—and all the things that were difficult in his journey—things that we no longer teach or say (hopefully) as when we “know better, we do better.”. If you are LGBTQ this podcast will help you write your own story. And for the rest it helps us better know how to love, understand and better support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints. Thank you, Shannon, for being on the podcast. You are a good man. Your story will help so many. Links: Shannon's coming out Facbook Post: www.facebook.com/shannondsears/posts/pfbid036VYH2cXvhtV2LNQMubQZ4EvGDiEM5nGpN7E7Zm7s3QAGhEtC1rE5Q9bkxK44Qsh2l Ministering to LGBTQ Latter-day Saints Facebook Group https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143 Richard Ostler Book: Embracing LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: Deseret Book: deseretbook.com/p/listen-learn-and-love-embracing-lgbtq-latter-day-saints?variant_id=189035-paperback Amazon: amazon.com/dp/1462135773 Index of Podcasts: listenlearnandlove.org/podcasts

My friend Jessop Oliver (age 25, starting a Master’s Program at Duke, Active LDS, RM, plans to marry a man) joins us to share his story. Jessop talks about growing up in Davis County (oldest of three) in a solid and loving family. Jessop bravely shares how porn use started out of curiosity because of his same-sex attraction. Jessop talks about being “proud of overcoming porn but lost with his sexuality” during his high school years. Jessop talks about how his “gay panic” led him to be a people pleaser, then later an overachiever, thinking he “couldn’t be rejected if I’m good at everything.” Jessop talks about his mission to Chile (great experience) and the spiritual foundation it gave him. Jessop talks about starting at Utah State and realizing he still had same-sex attraction and bravely opening up to his YSA Bishop (great experience). He talks about how this Bishop “loved me when I couldn’t love myself”. Jessop talks about dating women (short-lived relationships) and being faced with the reality of being gay and LDS. He talks about coming out to family and friends and the positive support he is receiving. Jessop talks about spiritual/positive experiences coming out, including a time when he was prompted to come out at a fireside. Jessop talks about why he started to date men, went back to date women, and then concluded that his path is going to be date men with the hopes of finding a husband with the same values/spiritual framework as him. Jessop talks about moving to Duke and coming out as gay in his YSA Ward during testimony meeting (he is now in the EQ Presidency) and the support he is receiving and his gratitude for the chance to serve. Jessop also talks about the reality of his road—knowing he will not be able to fully participate in the Church but wanting to stay connected with the Church and have a strong relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. He talks about the people God placed in his life, and having an eternal perspective. He also encourages people to take time to listen to the perspectives of the people around them. Thank you, Jessop, for sharing your story. You are so brave. You have such a mature and solid foundation to chart the rest of your life. Thank you for being on the podcast. Your story helps others. Ministering to LGBTQ Latter-day Saints Facebook Group https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143 Richard Ostler Book: Embracing LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: Deseret Book: deseretbook.com/p/listen-learn-and-love-embracing-lgbtq-latter-day-saints?variant_id=189035-paperback Amazon: amazon.com/dp/1462135773 Index of Podcasts: listenlearnandlove.org/podcasts

My friend Laurel Greathouse (RM, same-gender attraction, early 30s) joins us to share her story. Laurel talks about her decision to serve a mission (San Diego, California) and coming home twice for health reasons. She shares what was helpful and not helpful as an early release missionary. Laurel then talks about leaving the Church and dating women for about 4 years. She then talks about spiritual impressions and people showing pure love that led her to reconnect with God, her true hopes and the Church. It is a remarkable story. If you are wondering if there is a way back for you—or if you are wondering about better insights to help a friend or family member—Laurel’s story will help you. Thank you for being on the podcast Laurel. You are very brave and courageous to share your story. You story will help so many! Links: Ministering to LGBTQ Latter-day Saints Facebook Group facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143 Richard Ostler Book: Embracing LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: Deseret Book: deseretbook.com/p/listen-learn-and-love-embracing-lgbtq-latter-day-saints?variant_id=189035-paperback Amazon: amazon.com/dp/1462135773 Index of Podcasts: listenlearnandlove.org/podcasts