

The Project Chatter Podcast
Val Matthews & Dale Foong
Welcome to Project Chatter, the podcast where project professionals, specialists and experts from various sectors talk about the latest trends in project management and PMO. Listen to Val and Dale as they talk about tried and tested best practices and share their unfiltered thoughts about the industry. Whether you're here to learn how to progress your career, improve your project controls skills, or just want to hear an Aussie and South African rant about projects, then you've come to the right place. Welcome to the Project Chatter Podcast, with your hosts Dale Foong and Val Matthews.
Episodes
Mentioned books

Sep 26, 2021 • 1h 22min
S4E88: How to get the best out of your PMO with Lindsay Scott & Eileen Roden
In this week’s pod we welcomed Lindsay Scott and Eileen Roden from the House of PMO to talk about how to get the best out of your PMO teams.
Lindsay has a published author, having edited the Handbook of People in Project Management and published the PMO Competency Framework. She has experience as a PMO Manager and careers advisor.
Eileen is a Consulting Director Trainer and Coach at the House of PMO. She has written the PMO Competency Framework and the P3O Best Management Practice documents.
The main topics we discussed on the podcast were as follows:
· A PMO exists to enable decision making, assist on project delivery and create an ecosystem for projects to thrive
· There are different definitions of what a PMO is. Ultimately it depends on the organisation structure. Sometimes you will need to explain how projects differ from Business as Usual (BAU)
· Some organisations are just focusing on Project Controls rather than PMO which is broader
· PMO’s are effectively facilitators. They can support with having the wider view of all projects within an organisation
· PMO’s need to match the needs of the business. Sometimes the quality of outputs will deteriorate over time if the organisation structure changes frequently
· It is difficult to promote best practice across the industry because of the different organisation set-ups
· Many organisations are seeking to demonstrate PMO performance through KPIs.
· Project Managers will deliver projects, PMO’s will enable better controls to review the project status
· People are the key driver for getting the best out of PMO’s
· Data analytics will have a huge impact on the industry, however people skills are the most important skillset for effective PMO’s
· PMO will act as a translator between data analytics and Project Managements
· The main evolution in PMO skillsets over the past 30 years has been in technology. In the last five years the key theme is managing agile projects
· There are no consistent metrics across the industry to measure project success
· There is no such thing as best practice. It should be re-branded as good local practice!
· There is a debate between whether a PMO team should be permanent in order to transfer good practice and learning within an organisation vs whether they should be temporary to align with the finite nature of projects
Here are links to some of the topics that were discussed:
House of PMO: https://houseofpmo.com/
PMO Competency Framework: https://houseofpmo.com/competency-framework/
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Join us next week where we’re joined by Elizabeth Harrin to talk about effective stakeholder engagement and managing multiple projects.
For more information, blogs or to support our charities visit www.projectchatterpodcast.com If you'd like to sponsor the podcast get in touch via our website.
You can also leave us a voice message via our anchor page and let us know if there's something or someone specific that you would like on the podcast.
Stay safe, be disruptive and have fun doing it!
Dale and Val
This episode is sponsored by PlanAcademy.com, JustDo.com, and InEight.com.

Sep 19, 2021 • 1h 14min
S4E87: Why Independent Project Assurance is Important with Lorraine Humphrey
In this week’s pod we welcomed Lorraine Humphrey to talk about Project Assurance and Risk Management.
Lorraine is the interim Director of Risk and Assurance at Transport for London (TFL), a post she has held since April 2021. Lorraine moved to Project Assurance in 2018 after 12 years of project delivery as a Senior Project Manager.
Lorraine recently completed her MBA and has also been shortlisted for Inspirational Women of the Year in the Women in Rail awards for her mentoring work and support of autism initiatives at TfL.
The main topics we discussed on the podcast were as follows:
Assurance is ultimately about keeping honest
Assurance teams will point out where things are not right and provide recommendations to senior management based on evidence
PMO should be a critical friend to Project Teams
Assurance team often sits under General Counsel / Company Secretary in an organisation structure. This promotes the independence of the team
It is important to understand the political environment of the area you are working and not get dragged into it
There is no ideal experience required to be successful in Project Assurance. The majority will have experience in project delivery, however, leadership is the most important skillset
Transport for London reduced the number of assurance reviews in order to allow more time to analyse the findings and provide continuous improvements
10% contingency at the start of a project is often a red flag from an assurance perspective
Avoid watermelon reporting! Where Level 1 milestones are reporting as being on time without supporting Level 2 / 3 milestones
Transparency and being evidence based is the key to effective project assurance. Leaders may not agree with the findings but it should be as open as possible
The best way to avoid biases and groupthink is via evidence
Seeing Project Teams who actively avoid scrutiny on Quantitative Schedule Risk Analysis is often a symptom that the underlying assumptions may not be strong
EFC/EAC should be a dynamic figure. Static numbers may be due to hiding issues.
Use assurance, don’t fight it
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Sep 12, 2021 • 1h 26min
S4E86: Making law work for the construction & engineering industry with Sarah Schutte
In this week’s pod we welcomed Sarah Schutte to discuss how to make law work for the construction and engineering industry.
Sarah is an independent UK-qualified solicitor-advocate and runs her own legal and training consultancy. She has 19 years' experience as a specialist infrastructure lawyer, including 12 years working directly for industry. She has developed a niche practice in project management, project controls and the law (PPM and P3M and PMO).
She collaborates closely with global Chapters of the Project Management Institute (PMI) and the UK Association of Project Managers (APM).
The main topics we discussed on the podcast were as follows:
• The contract is the framework, means and vehicle for delivering and managing projects
• Freedom of contract allows companies to agree anything within their contracts provided it is legal. They are then bound by these agreements
• No project manager is taught contract law in PMBOK or APM frameworks. This should change given the importance to project delivery
• The role of project managers has evolved to include leadership and motivation. The next evolution should be commercial know-how
• NEC Contracts are written in the “simple, present, active voice”!
• There is a difference between Commercial teams and Legal teams. Legal are generally consulted whereas commercial generally manage contracts. Legal can often be overly academic
• Standard contract templates can be a useful starting point for projects in countries where contracts are not overly prescriptive e.g. Spain
• Learning about the technical aspect of the project allows commercial teams to be value adding to the delivery teams
• There isn’t a best time to speak to the in house legal counsel though most people leave it too late!
• As a legal counsel, it is your duty to give advice and inform clients of potential consequences to their commercial position.
• The transparency element of NEC Option C/D is overly weighted towards cost rather than time and quality
• It is important to provide accurate reporting even if the contractor or internal team do not like the answers
Here are links to some of the topics that were discussed:
Schutte Consulting
Peridot Consulting International LLP
Project Business Foundation: not-for-profit education and accreditation for PMs dealing with outsourced projects.
Basic knowledge of contract law for Project Managers: https://www.apm.org.uk/blog/basic-knowledge-of-contract-law-is-essential-for-an-effective-project-manager/
Basic Contract Law for Project Managers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKhhSNxgqVs
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Join us next week where we’re joined by Lorraine Humphrey to talk about Project Assurance and Risk Management.
Val and Dale are discussing the future of Project Controls at the Virtual Project Controls Expo next week. Be sure to tune in!
For more information, blogs or to support our charities visit www.projectchatterpodcast.com If you'd like to sponsor the podcast get in touch via our website.
You can also leave us a voice message via our anchor page and let us know if there's something or someone specific that you would like on the podcast.
Stay safe, be disruptive and have fun doing it!
Dale and Val

Sep 5, 2021 • 1h 46min
S4E85: Delivering Perfect Projects and Why We Make a Mess of Them with Prof. Eddie Obeng
In this week’s pod, we welcomed Eddie Obeng to talk about how to deliver perfect, all engaging projects and why we actively and intentionally make a mess of them!
Originally from Ghana, Eddie has a background in Chemical and Biochemical Engineering as well as Economics and Business Management. He started his career as an engineer at Royal Dutch Shell before becoming the youngest Executive Director of a European Business School when he moved to Ashridge Business School.
He is the First author to popularise Project management through the Financial Times Best-seller All Change. Also author of 9 other books including Perfect Projects and New Rules for the New World as well as hundreds of articles and papers.
He is also a world-class educator and has delivered TED talks.
The main topics we discussed on the podcast were as follows:
Some people forget what the job is about when they are paid. People need to ask why we are changing things
People should not confuse transformation and projects
Covid has shown the world that we need to transform
If you know the definition, then it should not be classed as transformation
It is rare for traditional project managers to be able to successfully deliver transformation projects as they typically know their scope whereas the answer is not always clear on transformation projects
Sometimes Project Managers who deliberately let their complex projects fail often get more airtime and credit from the leadership teams because they know it is difficult to manage
Most project reviews are backwards-looking, however, change constantly therefore management should be forward-looking rather than backwards
There is no such thing as a hybrid project!
Complexity without the fun is just hard work
Leadership is about following. There is no need to overcomplicate this
Incidence is not a useful guide to activity e.g. number of people using a PM methodology in a survey
Bubble diagrams allow people to map out project complexity
Here are links to some of the topics that were discussed:
Eddie Obeng – TED Talk: https://www.ted.com/talks/eddie_obeng_smart_failure_for_a_fast_changing_world
Five Monkeys Experiment: https://workingoutloud.com/blog/the-five-monkeys-experiment-with-a-new-lesson
Qube – Virtual Meeting Space: https://qube.cc/what-is-qube/
This episode is proudly brought to you by JustDo.com, PlanAcademy.com & InEight.com
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Join us next week where we’re joined by Sarah Schutte to discuss how to make law work for the construction and engineering industry.
For more information, blogs or to support our charities visit www.projectchatterpodcast.com If you'd like to sponsor the podcast get in touch via our website.
You can also leave us a voice message via our anchor page and let us know if there's something or someone specific that you would like on the podcast.
Stay safe, be disruptive and have fun doing it!
Dale and Val

Aug 29, 2021 • 1h 27min
S4E84: The Future of Project Management Technology with Dr Dan Patterson
In this episode, Dale and Val get into project management technology with a man who needs no introduction to the world of project systems, Dr Dan Patterson.
Critical Path Methodology (CPM) - getting really long in the tooth - there has to be a better way!
Perhaps a better approach is to plan in a hierarchical manner - recursively break down into chunks instead of such a highly linear approach. Dan touches on his vertical scope based approach.
We talked about knowledge-based planning and utilising non-linear methods or time-chainage type arrangements but not reliant on CPM.
We talk about the arrival of AI and what that could mean for jobs, workload and the way in which we plan projects. Dan goes into his experiences in risk workshops and various companies to help paint a picture of the future of project management.
Dan talks with the lads about many topics including;
Risk Analysis
Critical Path Methodology and alternatives
AI and its impact on Projects
Linear Project Management
Scope Management and New Software Ideas
Future of Project Management
More about Dan -
Globally recognized project analytics thought leader and software entrepreneur. With 20 years of experience & three highly successful Project Portfolio Management software companies under his belt, Dan has a unique combination of solution innovation combined with extensive project management experience including advanced scheduling, risk management, project analytics & artificial intelligence.
This experience has been used to lead multiple successful software company start-ups with Dan being a true visionary & renowned marketeer.
In 2016, Dan founded BASIS, a groundbreaking AI planning solution designed to help projects more accurately forecast timelines and budgets. BASIS was acquired by InEight Inc. in 2018. Prior, Dan founded Acumen - a highly acclaimed project analytics solution. Acumen was acquired by Deltek in 2013. Today, Dan's product inventions (BASIS, Acumen Fuse, 360 and Acumen Risk) are used by thousands of Fortune 500 project controls specialists around the world.
Dan drives a reputation for making complex business challenges simple and this is reflected in his passion for software usability and innovation. In 2012, Dan was awarded Innovator of Year for the invention of the widely accepted Fuse Schedule Index™.
Publications
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Numerous white papers and published articles on project analytics, risk management & scheduling innovation. Keynote public speaker.
Qualifications
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- PhD Doctorate in Project Management, Nottingham University, UK
- PMP certified
This episode is proudly brought to you by JustDo.com, PlanAcademy.com & InEight.com
For more information, blogs or to support our charities visit www.projectchatterpodcast.com If you’d like to sponsor the podcast get in touch via our website.
You can also leave us a voice message via our anchor page and let us know if there’s something or someone specific that you would like on the podcast.
Stay safe, be disruptive and have fun doing it!
Thanks for listening

40 snips
Aug 22, 2021 • 1h 19min
S4E83: Project management under conditions of inherent uncertainty with Dave Snowden
In this episode, the lads talk to Dave Snowden about his experience and depth of understanding in the fields of knowledge management and complexity theory. Dave is a riveting guest with stories, studies and methods that appeal to the sensible project manager. Moreover, Dave helped connect deeper studies with project management and delivery. This approach of 'sensemaking' just makes sense.
David John Snowden (born 1954) is a Welsh management consultant and researcher in the field of knowledge management and the application of complexity science. Known for the development of the Cynefin framework,[1] Snowden is the founder and chief scientific officer of Cognitive Edge, a Singapore-based management consulting firm specialising in complexity and sensemaking.[2]
Dave is the Director of the Cynefin Centre, Chief Scientific Officer Cognitive Edge. Creator of the Cynefin Framework. Lead author EU Field Guide to managing in Complexity (and crisis). His focus is on naturalising sense-making as an emerging trans-disciplinary field of study.
The main topics we discussed on the podcast were as follows:
The world of Project Management is likely to be more uncertain than it is at present
We always know more than we can tell and we can tell more than we can write down
Most lessons learnt focus on failure rather than success
Storytelling is a profession, many people can recount anecdotes, and this is better to document
Narrative is a quantitative approach rather than qualitative, it is simply numbered- backed up by explanatory stories
It is interesting to compare how decisions are actually made versus how the business believes they are made. This can be done as a process chartOld men are philosophers, old wives tell tales!Many large transportation infrastructure projects go wrong because once a certain level of complexity is reached, you’re beyond the ability to predict therefore design changes need to occurMany organisations employ consultants to manage transformation projects who will use pre-defined solutions rather than adapting to the context Covid has shown there is a large amount of resilience on major projects
Dave is currently working on the application of natural sciences to social systems through the development of a range of methods and the SenseMaker® software suite. He started work in an NGO post-University and then moved onto HR & Training in the late 70s where he started work with computers. That together with a diploma from The Certified Accountants got a job as Development Accountant in the same firm where he headed up the Treasury function and was responsible for computerisation.
An MBA in financial management saw Dave move into consultancy and software designing decision support systems in what became D

Aug 15, 2021 • 1h 19min
S4E82: Why Good Project Planners are like Gold Dust with Sunchana Johnston
This episode it proudly brought to you by JustDo.com, PlanAcademy.com & InEight.com.
In this week’s pod, we welcomed Sunchana Johnston. We discussed why good planners are like gold dust.
Originally from Croatia, Sunchana is a Chartered Program Professional, with over 25 years of experience consulting on complex transformational initiatives such as Brexit Programs in the financial industry, Fintech, EMEA telecoms, water utilities and UK civil service.
The main topics discussed on the podcast were:
The best planners need to demonstrate a level of secrecy given the volume of information they see
Effective planners are effective storytellers
Focus on whether you believe a candidate has a high level of intuition when trying to fill planning vacancies
A senior planner should be able to demonstrate management of a 40,000+ line schedule and how they were able to shape it
It is important for planners do not own their schedules. They need to be able to quietly influence the actual owners
The most effective storytellers when discussing Brexit showed the day in the life of a prawn from capture in Scotland to a restaurant in Spain
Effective planners will look for the business case to understand why their project exists
The ability to transition between industries often depends on the speed of change. IT/Finance industries are evolving constantly whereas construction and defence industries are shower to change
Always be learning! People need to constantly improve their skillsets to make themselves more employable
The best planners will know their worth in the market. Companies will pay well for the best employees therefore it is important not to undersell yourself
AI is coming, this will change how planning works. The industry should embrace this
Links discussed:
Good Planners are like Gold Dust - https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/good-project-planners-like-gold-dust-sunchana-johnston/
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Join us next week where we’re joined by Dave Snowden to discuss Project Management under conditions of inherent uncertainty. For more information, blogs or to support our charities visit www.projectchatterpodcast.com If you'd like to sponsor the podcast get in touch via our website. You can also leave us a voice message via our anchor page and let us know if there's something or someone specific that you would like on the podcast. Stay safe, be disruptive and have fun doing it! Dale and Val

Aug 8, 2021 • 1h 27min
S4E81: A deep dive into Change Management with Tim Creasey
In this week’s pod, Dale and Val were joined by Tim Creasey for a deep dive into Change Management & Project Management. Marco Frisenda joins us as a guest host.
Tim Creasey is Prosci’s Chief Innovation Officer and a globally recognised leader in change management. His work forms the foundation of the largest body of knowledge in the world on managing the people side of change to deliver organizational results.
The main topics we discussed on the podcast were as follows:
Change management is how we prepare, equip and support our people through organisational change
The main reason for the failure of Change Programmes is due to no one being able to articulate why the change is required
Certain words instil fear in staff e.g. Transformation. Businesses need to be careful with the language they use in change programmes
Prosci (pro-sigh) is short for Professional Science
Projects that tend to focus on the people side of change tend to be more successful
There are some factors that constitute effective change management on a project:
Active sponsor participation
Middle manager engagement
Open and honest communications
Intentional and structured approach
If there is no one responsible for a task in a change management Programme, it is likely to fail
Key question - What % of project outcomes is dependent on people changing how they do their jobs?
Change projects tend to fare better when it is easy to articulate why the change is required
The pandemic has shown businesses can change quickly if forced to e.g. moving to remote working within days
Change management level is often based on adoption challenges
There has been a large increase in the number of Change Management roles within organisations in the last few years, particularly in Australia. Most will sit within a Project Management Office
ADKAR - (Awareness of need to change, Desire to want to change, Knowledge, Ability, Reinforcement)
Beckhard-Harris equation: Dissatisfaction with current state x Vision of what is possible at the end of journey x First steps. Needs to be > current state
Here are links to some of the topics that were discussed:
Prosci Talks - Back to the Basics | Prosci Tim Talks - YouTube
Prosci Project Change Triangle - Prosci Change Triangle (PCT) Model Overview
Prosci 3 Phase Process Prosci 3-Phase Process
Prosci Integrating Change Management and Project Management Integrating Change Management and Project Management (prosci.com)
Prosci - ADKAR Model - The Prosci ADKAR® Model | Prosci
Beckhard-Harris Change Equation
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Aug 1, 2021 • 1h 31min
S4E80: The Positive Project Manager, Lean & Six Sigma with Kasper Dixon
This episode is proudly brought to you by PlanAcademy.com, JustDo.com, and InEight.com.
In this week’s pod, we were supposed to speak to Dr. Dan Patterson but unfortunately, he is unwell. In his place, we welcomed Kasper Dixon to talk about positive Project Management, Lean and Six Sigma
Kasper is a Programme Delivery Manager working for the Major Projects Directorate within Transport for London on the £5.6 billion Four Lines Modernisation Project. He is a Lean Six Sigma Black Belt trainer and is passionate about leading through example with positivity and encouragement.
The main topics discussed:
· There are many high performing projects that do not get the same level of management focus or recognition as failing projects
· Positivity is something to focus on in personal lives not just in the workplace
· Empathy is critical for leaders. Always try to understand the frustrations of stakeholders who are not onside immediately
· Turn the saboteurs into advocates by being authentic and working tirelessly to reach the desired goals
· Leadership perception has fundamentally changed over the last 30-40 years. Less stick, more carrot!
· People simply do not respond to the stick. They want encouragement to achieve their goals
· Leaders need to stop, look back and celebrate success when critical milestones are achieved
· Tips for difficult conversations:
Having the conversation is often the answer. Never avoid issues
Identify why there is an issue
Don’t be overly optimistic, talk about the issues and reflect on it
· Six Sigma provides a structure for people to see a task from start to finish. It provides a structure for people
· Unfortunately, there are no actual belts for achieving Six Sigma!
· Six Sigma is applicable to every project and every function.
· Construction industry is slow to embrace this, does not gain the right level of focus
· Six Sigma training is available online. It is not essential to undertake in-person training. It does help to talk and work through the concepts with other collaborators
· It will make you a more marketable employee
· VANVA – Value Add / Non-Value Add
· Always ask the 5 Why’s when reviewing a process. (it really is five why’s!)
· Post-it notes are the best process mapping tool!
· Always challenge words that begin with “re” – they are more likely to be processes that are wasteful
Some of the topics that were discussed:
5 Laws of Lean Six Sigma - https://www.shmula.com/understanding-the-5-laws-of-lean-six-sigma/26626/
Minitab – Statistical process tool - https://www.minitab.com/en-us/
Miro – Online whiteboard - https://miro.com/
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Join us next week where we’re joined by Tim Creasey for a deep dive into Change Management & Project Management.
For more information, blogs or to support our charities visit www.projectchatterpodcast.com If you'd like to sponsor the podcast get in touch via our website.
You can also leave us a voice message via our anchor page and let us know if there's something or someone specific that you would like on the podcast.
Stay safe, be disruptive and have fun doing it!

Jul 25, 2021 • 1h 33min
S4E79: Why Schedule Quality Matters with Martin Murphy
On this week’s pod, we welcomed Martin Murphy to talk about why schedule quality really matters. Martin Murphy has more than 31 years of experience working with multinational companies and participating in high profile international projects, such as the Petronas Towers in Malaysia and the Panama Canal extension. He is a Director with Hill International in Spain, dealing especially with industrial, manufacturing and technological projects. Since 1992, he has been working as Project Manager and in the planning and project control departments of Spanish construction and consulting companies dealing with Claims and controlling time, cost and risk elements of projects in Spain, Europe and Latin America.
The main topics we discussed on the podcast were as follows: · Projects should aim to focus as much planning work upfront as possible. This ensures you are not editing the schedule each week
· Good schedules have a 3% chance of finishing on time
· A good schedule is like watching a video rather than a photograph
· Setting up the activity coding is more important than setting up the WBS
· A properly coded schedule is critical to successful delivery.
You would be surprised how many people do not use this function
· Coding can really help with developing and leading the discussion on schedule metrics.
· People should think of a plan as a database.
It needs to be organised logically to retrieve the right information at the right time. A good planner can only manage 200 activities a month. Anything more detailed may lead to being overworked and potentially degrade the quality of the schedule · Absolute duration and float duration measurements can be misleading. Should be % of remaining duration · Quick wins for managing quality schedules: o Start-Start 0 should not exist! Laziness in planning o Review the length of lags. o Never, ever use negative lags o Should only use SS/FF to draw summary bars o Activities should have a maximum of a 2 to 3-week duration.
The main themes for effective schedule quality metrics are: number of predecessor/successor activities, activities with high float (always lack of logic), coding · The concept of contingencies understood within the industry, however, clients will rarely accept having contingencies in schedule submissions · Rolling wave planning is not always the best approach. Particularly on projects with an element of repetition e.g. construction of a multi-storey building · Top tips for avoiding failure in dispute resolutions:
- Need to “nurture” a schedule to maintain quality in claims disputes. Need to bring in actual performance even if it is not in the baseline. Do not be afraid to add in more detail
- Do not tell lies in a schedule e.g premature completions of documents o Always present monthly/weekly reports. Even if it demonstrates poor performance. Some clients may not want to see it!
- Ask if there are any claims in the weekly meetings. Knowledge is key!
- Never combine more than one entity on the same activity (e.g. client and sub-contractor)
- Ensure there is documentation to back up the schedule
The planner should never assume ownership of the schedule. It must be owned by the project manager
Resource loaded schedules can help to identify missing logic. If the histogram goes from horizontal to vertical, there is probably something missing! Here are links to some of the topics that were discussed: XER Toolkit – schedule quality software https://xertoolkit.com/ Synchro - https://www.bentley.com/en/products/brands/synchro -----------------------------------------
Join us next week where we’re joined again by Dr Dan Patterson, who will give us his insights into the future of project management technology. Be sure to download it! For more information, b
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