The Blogger Genius Podcast

Today I'm back with my friend, and MiloTree Community Manager, Paula Rollo. Paula is an affiliate marketing pro. She's back on the show to share her advanced affiliate marketing tactics. These will help you make even more money through your affiliate marketing strategy so you don't have to worry about pageviews. In this episode we cover why you want to treat your affiliate products like they're your own, how to find ideas for affiliate products in your own life, what the MiloTree Affiliate Program is all about, and much more! Paula has so many tips to share. If you want to grow your affiliate income, don't miss this! Resources: MiloTree Beauty Through Imperfection How Blogging Makes You Braver with Paula Rollo Catch My Party I See Me Personalized Books MiloTree Affiliate Program GumRoad Refersion FTC Rules The Blogger Genius Podcast on iTunes * May contain affiliate links. If you click and make a purchase, I might receive a small commission at no cost to you. Transcript - How to Make Even More Money with Advanced Affiliate Marketing Tactics with Paula Rollo [00:00:03] Welcome to The Blogger Genius Podcast, brought to you by MiloTree. Here's your host, Jillian Leslie. Jillian: [00:00:11] Hi everyone. Welcome back to The Blogger Genius Podcast. Today I am excited because I am joined by my good friend, Paula Rollo. Jillian: [00:00:23] You guys might have already been introduced to her. Paula is the MiloTree Community Manager. She's also my right hand woman. I'd be nowhere without her. Jillian: [00:00:34] She's a blogger who has been blogging for many many years. Her blog is called Beauty Through Imperfection. And today we are going to be talking about advanced tips for affiliate marketing. Jillian: [00:00:46] Paula has been doing affiliate marketing forever, and she really upped my game. So hopefully she can yours too. So welcome to the show, Paula. Paula: [00:00:56] Thank you for having me. Jillian: [00:00:59] Absolutely. So this is your second time on the podcast. Paula: [00:01:02] Yes I'm excited. Jillian: [00:01:03] So I will link to your first interview and. I thought it was terrific. We talked about a whole host of things. Jillian: [00:01:13] But little did I know that you were an affiliate marketing exper. So tell us what you think about affiliate marketing and what tips you have to kind of up someone's game. How to Improve Your Affiliate Marketing Strategy Jillian: [00:01:27] We're thinking that this is for people who understand what affiliate marketing is, who've tried it with some success, but who really want that passive income stream. Paula: [00:01:40] Sure. So I love it. It's one of those things that I ignored for a few years. Then when I really understood it, and just really finally was able to wrap my brain around how powerful affiliate marketing is, I've been all in since then. Paula: [00:02:00] I feel like it is one of the most passive ways you can have an income. Obviously nothing is truly passive, but where a sponsored post disappears as far as your income goes, affiliates don't and they can get stronger and stronger. Paula: [00:02:19] My goal is to have my affiliate income matching my sponsored post, and my ad income if not exceeding it. [00:02:25] Because it's not as dependent on pageviews, it's not here today gone tomorrow, like sponsored posts. You can truly have a steady income stream. Paula: [00:02:38] Which is why I'm so passionate about it and excited about using it, and making sure other people use it well. Jillian: [00:02:44] Exactly, and you know what I would say is when we started with Catch My Party, brands would reach out to us and I would feel so happy like, oh my God, Target wants to work with us. That's incredible. Jillian: [00:02:58] And then what I realized though pretty quickly is that we would work really hard on those sponsored posts. But the problem is you can't scale them so soon as it's over, it's over. The pros and cons of sponsored posts Jillian: [00:03:10] The money is good and then it's gone. And it's not like that post is useful anymore, and then you're waiting for another brand, or you're reaching out to brands. Jillian: [00:03:21] But what I realized is when I had a plate full of sponsored posts, I'd be happy, but I'd also go, oh no, I know have all this work to do. And then once that work's done, it's done. Paula: [00:03:33] Exactly. It's never coming back. Maybe they'll hire you again in a year, but you're going to have to put in the same amount of hours to do another amazing post for them, which is a lot. Jillian: [00:03:45] And I feel like people were upping their game, so that what used to work as a really good sponsored post back in the day, no longer was good. Brands got smarter or just more demanding. Paula: [00:03:59] Yeah both, I think both. [00:04:03] Sometimes they come to me now and say, well we wanted your images to look like this." And I'm like, "Well there is not an image on my blog that looks like that. So why would you expect that from me?" Jillian: [00:04:12] Right. Or they want this number of social shares, it used to be kind of easy and now they want you to hit these numbers with them. Jillian: [00:04:19] So I have found that the world of sponsored posts, even though we've been doing them for years and years. It hasn't gotten easier. It's actually gotten more time consuming. Paula: [00:04:28] Yes a lot more demanding. Jillian: [00:04:29] A lot more demanding and it is a little bit of trying to hit a moving target. Jillian: [00:04:37] Just in terms of before the brand would be like. Thank you. Great. Here's your check. And now they're like can you re-shoot this or it's not exactly what we were thinking. Paula: [00:04:49] Yes. It's so hard. Jillian: [00:04:53] I found it more difficult. Paula: [00:04:55] That's one thing that when I'm communicating with brands on my own, one of my favorite ways to do that is to try to get sort of a hybrid going. Paula: [00:05:07] I'll ask them for 50% of my normal sponsored post fee, and I'll let them know what my sponsored post fee is. And then I asked them for an affiliate commission too. How to structure a sponsored post fee and an affiliate fee in one campaign Paula: [00:05:23] Some brands don't have the technology set up for a affiliate program yet. But a lot of them are willing to set it up or give me a code so that it can happen. Paula: [00:05:35] It is kind of the best of both for both parties. The brand has a little bit of security where I'm actually going to make some sales or I'm not going to make up the rest of my my income that I wanted from this post. So they know that I'm I'm planning to do that. Paula: [00:05:50] But then I also have security. You know sometimes I think a brand's going to do amazing and it doesn't, and it falls flat. I got some pay today for the work that I put in. Jillian: [00:06:01] Can you give an example of a brand that you've done that with? Paula: [00:06:05] It's oftentimes like smallish brands. Jillian: [00:06:08] OK. Paula: [00:06:08] So maybe an app. A lot of the more techie brands will do it that way. Or a small travel company has hired me to talk about their bags and traveling with kids. Paula: [00:06:22] They gave me a small sponsored post fee, and then they gave me an affiliate commission. I still make money off of that post, which was technically a sponsored post ,and was technically below my pay grade because I got the commission as well. Paula: [00:06:37] That's one of the most interesting ways that I think a lot of people aren't taking advantage of. You can do it on both sides. If somebody is contacting you about a sponsored post, pitch them that you want an affiliate commission as well. Paula: [00:06:48] Or if you're working regularly with an affiliate, you can reach out to them and say, "I want to do this super-mega-awesome sponsored post for you. You should pay me extra on top of my affiliate commission." A lot of them will agree to that as well. Are affiliate commissions negotiable? Jillian: [00:07:04] I love that. Here is a question. Are affiliate percentages, like what you get paid, negotiable? Paula: [00:07:15] Absolutely. That's another thing I do frequently with brands. It has to be someone you've worked with before. They have to be able to see that you've done something for them. Jillian: [00:07:29] That made money, right? Paula: [00:07:30] Exactly. Jillian: [00:07:30] You made everybody money. Paula: [00:07:31] Yeah. That you brought in customers to them. There's this brand that every month I'm selling. These I See Me personalized books. People love them. Paula: [00:07:43] That's one of my biggest commissions every single month on my blog. So a brand like that that you have a track record with you can reach out to. Paula: [00:07:50] Say this is what I'm planning. I want to do this amazing post. I want to do it at this time. Will you double my affiliate commission for this month? Paula: [00:07:58] They're not going to keep your affiliate commission at that level forever. They're not normally allowed to do that. Paula: [00:08:05] But you can ask them for a special promotion, say would you mind doubling it? Would you mind bumping it up from 15% to 20% or things along those lines. Paula: [00:08:15] And then when you push that new post, or you push that Christmas Roundup or whatever it might be. Instead of getting $10 per sale, you're getting $15 and that adds up. Jillian: [00:08:26] I've never thought to do that. That is a very good idea. Paula: [00:08:32] Normally, those affiliate people are really excited. Jillian: [00:08:35] Because you're excited. Paula: [00:08:36] Because you're excited and they want you to stay excited. So I wouldn't ask for something crazy but even just asking, "Is there any wiggle room? Could you increase it?" And see what they come back with and just kind of take it or leave it. Anchoring as a negotiating tactic Paula: [00:08:51] If you're not super comfortable with throwing out, "I want this number," I know a lot of us are kind of timid about negotiating still, and that's OK. But just asking what they can do is good to get your feet wet to see what's possible. Jillian: [00:09:05] I will just say that I went to business school and spent a ton of money on business school, and I've come back come out with a couple little pieces that I remember. Jillian: [00:09:17] And one of them is the concept of anchoring. Negotiating is tough. And it's especially tough for women. But if you have the courage to throw a number out, that will probably benefit you more than saying "Tell me what you can do." Jillian: [00:09:35] Only because what tends to happen is if I say, "Hey how about 30%," they will negotiate even without knowing that they're doing it around the number that you throw out. So that's just a thing that I remember, that I want to share. Paula: [00:09:50] Yes. Jillian: [00:09:50] So that little gem was like $10,000 for business school. Jillian: [00:10:06] I always think about that when negotiating, that even though it feels uncomfortable to put a number out. Because they will negotiate around it. Paula: [00:10:14] That's awesome. Jillian: [00:10:14] OK so tell us more. Well first of all we should take a minute just to say that you run the MiloTree Affiliate program. Paula: [00:10:25] I do. MiloTree Affiliate Program -- What is It? Jillian: [00:10:25] Will you talk a little bit about lie what your job is. What you do and how you have helped us grow through the affiliate program. Paula: [00:10:33] All right, so I've been an affiliate of MiloTree for years. Long before I knew you, really other than being the CEO of MiloTree. Paula: [00:10:45] And I've always loved it. MiloTree is one of those really good affiliate programs I feel like. And I'm not just saying that because I run it. It was really good two years ago when I started being an affiliate. Paula: [00:10:58] Because you get $20 per referral, What you're referring is such a cheap product, like as far as how much money they're putting out right away. Paula: [00:11:08] With most affiliate programs you get a commission. So if they buy a $10 product I'm probably going to get a dollar, which is not very exciting. [00:11:18] But MiloTree is 30 days free and then they have to pay $9 and as soon as they pay that $9 I get $20. Jillian: [00:11:25] Well, wait. One thing ,they have to go through two pay cycles. Paula: [00:11:29] Oh, OK. Jillian: [00:11:30] So therefore we make $18 and then we give out $20. Paula: [00:11:35] So they get the 30 days free and then two more months. Jillian: [00:11:38] Right. Paula: [00:11:38] But still, I feel like that's very cheap. Because in the person's mind, they've only spent $9 because it's been two months of $9. Jillian: [00:11:45] Right. Paula: [00:11:47] So that's a pretty easy sale for me to make, and normally to make $20 off of one thing, like I just sold a mattress or something, which is not going to happen very often. Paula: [00:11:56] But I can sell an app that's $9 a month pretty easily. So that's one of my favorite programs. Paula: [00:12:03] Programs that work like that as an affiliate are some of my favorites to participate in because it's easy to make you know $50 to $100 a month off of one product, which is always the ideal. Jillian: [00:12:16] If you join our Affiliate Program, you will get emails from Paula with tips. So it's even worth it to join. I'll put a link to join the affiliate program. Paula: [00:12:27] Yes because I try to send out tips every other week, with ways that you can implement MiloTree and advertise it on your site. Paula: [00:12:34] Here's a feature you didn't know about because I know I'm constantly using things. I don't know all the features. Paula: [00:12:40] I've used MiloTree for two years and didn't realize it had email. So I'll send out those tips and that helps you. Paula: [00:12:50] But the tips are evergreen. You can you can apply them to other affiliate programs that you're with. I know you're not just an affiliate of MiloTree. Jillian: [00:12:58] In fact I think you're all about making people smarter affiliates. How affiliate marketing serves your audience Paula: [00:13:01] Yes I am. Because it's such a wonderful way of promoting products. I think it serves the reader better than most other marketing ways. Jillian: [00:13:16] Can you explain what you mean? Paula: [00:13:17] Yes. So, ads. I use ads and I love them. Obviously love the paycheck I get from my ads every month. But they're not really serving my reader all that much. Paula: [00:13:29] It's like you have to see something in an ad like what is it, like nine times before it starts registering. Paula: [00:13:37] So that's not a great experience for my reader. I have ads because they're making me money. Paula: [00:13:43] Sponsored posts may or may not serve your reader. It depends. Paula: [00:13:50] Sometimes you just get those brands. It's funny, my son gets this. I got this sponsored post one time and I was driving in the car and I think it was actually a sponsored tweet. Paula: [00:14:03] We were driving, and he's like, oh where are we going? He's like 6 at the time. I said we were going to the store to get something for a blog post. And he was like, oh what are we getting. Paula: [00:14:11] Sometimes that means like a toy or something exciting. And I said oh we're getting water because they were paying us. Paula: [00:14:22] And literally my 6 year old from the back seat goes "No offense mom, but I think everybody already knows about water." And I'm like, you're right. Paula: [00:14:32] This is not a very effective thing that they're hiring me to do. I would never post an affiliate link to water because everybody already has water. Everybody already has their opinions about water. I'm not changing anybody's mind. Paula: [00:14:46] But the products that I sign up to be an affiliate for, like MiloTree, like I See Me, for these personalized books like all these other affiliate programs I'm in. Paula: [00:14:56] I'm in that particular affiliate program because I adore the product and I'm excited about it, and I feel like it's something my readers might not know about. Paula: [00:15:04] So I'm connecting with them by solving a problem. Where yes, my readers need water, but they're not really coming to me for that. Jillian: [00:15:12] It's kind of like I think you can be a much more authentic helper. Paula: [00:15:17] Absolutely yes. And you can solve problems that they didn't know they have also. Paula: [00:15:22] Because you're bringing up products you know before I mentioned it my reader might not have known about MiloTree. My reader might not have known that they could get this personalized book about becoming a big sibling for their toddler. Jillian: [00:15:36] Right. Right. Paula: [00:15:37] And so it's bringing them brand new information. Instead of just being like, Hey this big box store that you already know about has water which is a product you already know about. Jillian: [00:15:46] Right. And again if you are that kind of person who sees people at drop off for your kids, and is like oh my god. Have you tried this? There are always those people. Jillian: [00:15:56] If you are one of those people, I think affiliate marketing is perfectly aligned for you. Paula: [00:16:02] Yeah for sure. And I mean I'm ragging a little bit on sponsored posts. I do them. And I do my best to make them useful, as you can make a sponsored post useful. How to add value to your audience with a sponsored post Paula: [00:16:12] Even if it is just about water. And I do. But it's a much easier, or more organic, more authentic thing when it's a product that I'm actually really excited about, and not a product that I'm kind of meh about, but I'm weaving it into a more useful story. Jillian: [00:16:29] Right and for us, to when we do a sponsored post we always say, OK what value add can we provide, whether it be a free printable, whether it be a recipe, something that the brand hasn't asked for. Jillian: [00:16:44] And yes it's serving the brand, but we always say how can we justify this. Paula: [00:16:50] Absolutely. Jillian: [00:16:51] Versus we're just shilling for this company, because it feels bad. Paula: [00:16:55] It does feel bad. But then it's frustrating because you created this whole recipe. And you're not going to be making money off of that recipe for the rest of your life. Paula: [00:17:04] Where if it had been affiliate product, you would be making money off of that recipe for the rest of your life. Jillian: [00:17:11] So tell me some more things that I would not have thought of. Paula: [00:17:14] OK. So one of the biggest things, and this one is always funny to me because I'll mention it like it's old hat. Paula: [00:17:22] And everybody would be like oh my gosh! And I'm like oh, I thought we were all thinking about it this way. Paula: [00:17:27] So I don't know where I picked this up, or how I just kind of automatically started thinking about it this way. But the way I view affiliate marketing and affiliates in general is that I'm going to treat them like they're my products. Treat affiliate products like they're your own products Paula: [00:17:41] Meaning if I wrote a book (which I did). Or if I made a course (which I did). I squeezed that thing into everything that I can on my site. I talk about it all the time. Paula: [00:17:52] Every relevant post has "look how great my book is, look how great my course is." I spent 10 years trying to create this thing, so you better buy it, is how I feel. Paula: [00:18:04] Because I spent all that time making it and realistically for a lot of those products I'm not going to make that money back in the time that I spent on it. Paula: [00:18:11] I created it because I wanted to. My book doesn't sell millions, I wish. But I put it everywhere. Paula: [00:18:19] Now affiliates save you time, because you have this ready made product that's amazing and you can put it everywhere. You can rave about it like it's your own, because you hopefully have this personal connection with it. It's changed your life in some way. Put it in everywhere. Jillian: [00:18:37] So give me an example. Paula: [00:18:39] This isn't for an Amazon link. This wouldn't work with Amazon because Amazon gives you nothing. For something like MiloTree, where you're working with another blogger. Paula: [00:18:48] If another blogger has a book. If another blogger has a course. You generally get higher percentages from other bloggers because they're so excited. The only way that they're getting out there is if we all help each other. Jillian: [00:19:01] Got it. Paula: [00:19:02] Another blogger is probably you know, here's a $10 book they wrote. Well they're going to give you 5 of those dollars to promote. And that's a huge win, versus if I promoted a book off of Amazon I'm going to get like 10 cents. Jillian: [00:19:17] So what I think I hear you saying is, if in fact you're somebody who creates courses, then you're of course, want to promote your course. But, what about promoting somebody else's course. Paula: [00:19:32] Absolutely. So I think, do I need to make this course? Or is there really good course that I can promote instead. You can save yourself a lot of time. Paula: [00:19:42] Now there are people of course that make like $10,000 courses and they make their millions and all of that. But the amount of work and effort that it takes to have a $10,000 course is more than I'm willing to do personally. And more than most of us are even able to do. Paula: [00:19:59] But we can ride their coattails in a way, and make a couple hundred a month off of each of them, because we didn't have to do any work other than researching the product a bit at the beginning. And then adding it to our relevant posts. Paula: [00:20:12] And so if I'm really passionate, if I'm really excited, if I know the brand backwards and forwards, I can treat it as if it's my product. Jillian: [00:20:21] Yes. Paula: [00:20:22] Obviously I'm not telling people this is my product, but I adore it like it's my own. And I talk about it like it's my own, because I'm actually making more money off of that than if I made my own product. Jillian: [00:20:33] And of course all the time you save. I remember interviewing another blogger and she makes meal plans or recipe books. And she said I will promote my competitors because there's enough that goes around. Promote your competitor's products Jillian: [00:20:53] You know there's enough, in that if I can make a sale maybe a product that's similar but slightly different, or for a slightly different audience. She will still promote it, and I remember thinking wow that's genius. Paula: [00:21:05] Yes. Jillian: [00:21:07] So it's like even in your own space, to believe in abundance, and to offer multiple options, not just your own option. Paula: [00:21:16] Well and it will build your credibility, because you can say, here's the product that I offer, and here's who it's for. But if you are this person you might actually better be served by this product from my friend. Paula: [00:21:30] You're making money off of both but the person is like, wow I can really trust her. She's not telling me that her product is the end all be all, but she's realistically giving me the view. Paula: [00:21:41] She says this recipe book has this type of recipe, and that recipe book has that recipe. I can make my decision as an informed person now, instead of going to her site and reading her bias about her product, and going to someone else's site and reading their bias about their product, and not really knowing what's the best choice for me. Jillian: [00:21:57] That is terrific. And if there's a product, like let's say somebody makes a printable or a course or something, and they don't have an affiliate program. You might want to reach out to them and say I'd like to promote this. Could you set up an affiliate program because it's not that hard to do. Paula: [00:22:14] Yes. I've gotten people to make them for me. Jillian: [00:22:18] Right. Paula: [00:22:19] Because a lot of times people think, especially if they are new to the industry, they think, "oh no one would want to sign up to promote my product". If they're not really sure, they're not going to spend time on it. Paula: [00:22:29] They don't know that there's interest right right away, because they don't know how to do that piece of finding new affiliates. So it's a hard thing to do when you're starting. Paula: [00:22:38] So reaching out, and saying that and even just saying here, sign up for Gumroad or Refersion or you know, get one of these and work it out oftentimes they will do it. Jillian: [00:22:49] Okay that's great. So tell me do you have any other ideas? Paula: [00:22:54] Okay. Yes I have so many ideas. Fitting them all into however much time we have is the issue. Paula: [00:23:02] Another strategy that I use that I think is a little underrated by people. I don't know, people just don't pay attention to this stuff, and I love it. Paula: [00:23:13] Thinking about, not going broad. So we think with our affiliate links like "I just need get people to click them." I'm going to put a gotcha, and they'll just click it and it'll be great. Paula: [00:23:25] And that's just not effective, people don't buy that way. But if instead of casting a really really wide net, try to cast a narrow net, where people are actually looking to buy. Paula: [00:23:41] So yes I do put affiliate links in every post when I can. I forget a lot of the time. But my intention is to put an affiliate link in every post, because if they're going to buy something, I want them to buy from me. Do affiliate roundup posts that are niche Paula: [00:23:53] But my actual strategy is not based around I'm putting affiliate links in every post. My strategy is based around trying to hone in on some keywords that are smaller and more niche. Paula: [00:24:06] They aren't getting a bunch of noise from everyone about. That they'll actually want to buy. Paula: [00:24:13] So there's two sides to this. One is that like going into Christmas we're all going to be making these toy roundups and gift roundups. And I mean that's just what you do at Christmas time right. Paula: [00:24:25] Affiliate link, affiliate link, affiliate link. And they're annoying but effective so do them. But there's a way of doing and that's more effective. Paula: [00:24:37] If I put a affiliate roundup of the "best gifts for toddlers" for example. It's not very compelling and they could go to my list, and it has however many things it has. Like if it has only 10, they might not be interested in something, but it has a 100 they're going to be overwhelmed. Paula: [00:24:55] And so getting someone to actually act on something that's like gifts for toddlers is really really hard. You're not going to get that much actioning from that. Paula: [00:25:05] But doing more niched in roundups, like the best board games for toddlers (that's an actual post I have). The people coming to that post actually want to buy a board game. Jillian: [00:25:16] Right. Paula: [00:25:16] They're already ready to buy a board game. They're interested in a board game and you're just going to tell them which one to buy and why. Paula: [00:25:21] Where, best gifts for toddlers, they might be looking at that before they go to Target and buy a gift for a toddler, and just getting some ideas and inspiration. Paula: [00:25:33] You're not going to make the sale as easily as you would from somebody who's already decided that this is a toddler. It's my nephew I'm buying him a board game. Tell me which one I should get, and I'm going to order it right then and there, because I don't know if Target has it. Paula: [00:25:46] Instead of saying "I want to reach every mom of toddlers," no. Absolutely you don't. Because right, it's going to be pageviews. But it's not going to be purchases on your affiliate links. Paula: [00:25:58] You want to go narrow and think what specific thing might someone be looking for, and create a really useful roundup of those things. Paula: [00:26:08] You're going to get a lot less pageviews. But the pageviews that you get the intent is actually to buy from you. So it's a lot more powerful, even though it's probably not going to go viral. Paula: [00:26:19] But honestly, the chances of your "toddler best gift ideas" going viral is quite slim because everybody has a best gifts for toddlers post. I have one from before I knew better. Paula: [00:26:29] It's still on my site. I still promote it. But it makes me much less money than the board games for toddlers does, or the gifts for kids who like to wiggle, or things along those lines. Paula: [00:26:40] Where you think like, Oh Billy likes to wiggle. I'm going to click that and I'm going to buy him something because you resonated with me already. You already showed me that you understand this child more than just "a toddler." You know who my son or my nephew, you know who they are as a person. And so I want to buy from you because you get them. Jillian: [00:26:59] And I would say, Tell me if you agree to start with yourself. So if you have a wiggly kid, you understand what wiggly kids need. Find ideas for affiliate posts in your own life Jillian: [00:27:09] I don't have a wiggly kid. So for me to do the wiggly post doesn't make sense. Paula: [00:27:15] Right. Jillian: [00:27:15] But go look in your own life. Like if you love moisturisers, and you have serious opinions about moisturisers for dry skin because you have dry skin, go write about that. Jillian: [00:27:28] Or let's say even better, you've got eczema. And so you understand that whereas if you've got oily skin, don't be writing about dry skin because you think the dry skin market is bigger than the oily skin market. Paula: [00:27:42] Yes exactly. Exactly. Jillian: [00:27:44] So look around your own life and pull from your own experience. Paula: [00:27:49] Yes. Because I think especially with those roundups people just try to cover everybody. Jillian: [00:27:56] Yes. Paula: [00:27:56] And that just makes it where you're actually covering nobody. People don't go and say "Oh I feel so understood after reading this. She addressed every issue that I had with my skin type." Paula: [00:28:07] Instead of thinking, she literally just went to Amazon and took all the five star rated things and threw them in a post and I could have done that. Now I'm annoyed and I'm mad. Paula: [00:28:17] Actually my husband literally does this. If he lands on a post like that, when he's looking for information he will x out and then go to Amazon himself, to look at the same product because he doesn't want to give them the sale. Paula: [00:28:30] He knows how it works, so if they give him good information and he doesn't buy right then, he will go back to the site like a week later and click it because he knows how it works. Jillian: [00:28:41] Right. Paula: [00:28:42] So it amuses me he is that way and he's he's not even a blogger. Jillian: [00:28:46] Right. But it is that ideal, if you are providing value people will want to thank you. It's a way to say thank you. Paula: [00:28:55] They are happy to help you make money if you're providing them value. Jillian: [00:28:57] And it doesn't cost them any money. Paula: [00:28:59] Right. Exactly. Jillian: [00:29:00] So it's not like well you know contribute to my Patreon account right. Paula: [00:29:06] Right. Jillian: [00:29:06] So tell me some more. Paula: [00:29:10] So that second thing with this is kind of like a two part thing is having a second page strategy. Have a two blog post affiliate strategy Paula: [00:29:18] And what I mean by this is, I read something a long time ago and I wish I had bookmarked it because it was from like an actual, like I think, psychologist. Paula: [00:29:28] But they were talking about how clicking through to a second page on your site builds a lot of trust. If someone is willing to do that, then they trust you a lot more. And so psychologically they're more interested in purchasing from you. Paula: [00:29:42] They're more likely to purchase from you if they've gone through and clicked through a second page. Paula: [00:29:47] So I was fascinated by this. And I tried it out. And I'll just give you that example of a post I've done it in, And I've done this in like multiple posts since. Paula: [00:29:59] But there is this initial post that I wrote years and years and years ago, that did extremely well. It was during the stage where things were still going crazy insane viral on Facebook. Jillian: [00:30:09] Yes, a long time ago. Paula: [00:30:12] 2014 or 2015 somewhere in there. I don't remember when I initially wrote it. But I wrote this post about overcoming child abuse, and it was about how to talk to your kids about abuse in age appropriate ways. Paula: [00:30:25] And you and I were actually talking a little bit about this before the show. But how to have those conversations, like I talk to my preschooler or I talk to my toddler and little ways that I do that, not like terrifying ways. Just little subtle things that you can do to empower your kids and make them feel in charge of their own bodies. Paula: [00:30:44] To let them know if something weird happens, that they can come and tell you without having to have a concept of what different types of assault are, and what could happen and things along those lines. Paula: [00:30:55] So anyway, I created this whole post. It was great, it was going nuts it was going viral. Well there's these children's books that talk about these things, which I adore like Your Body Belongs To You, and I Said No. Paula: [00:31:09] There's a whole collection of them that you can read literally, with a toddler and it introduces these topics that they're really fun. And they're bright and they're colorful and the toddler doesn't really know what they're learning, but they are great. Paula: [00:31:22] And so I initially had one of those like Amazon native ads in there with all those books, and it was not performing well. Those things never performed well for me, but I had it been there and all the books were there. But it wasn't doing anything for me. Paula: [00:31:39] And what I did was I created a second post, second page whatever you want to call it. And it was essentially a round up just of these books. Paula: [00:31:48] So it was like Books To Teach Your Child About Child Abuse. No one is searching that on Google, I can tell you right now. Paula: [00:31:55] No one is on Pinterest looking for this post, but I created this post anyway and I talked about, I think it's just four or five of the books. Paula: [00:32:04] There's lots of them, but I talked about the ones that I had read. I talked about what ages I thought they were appropriate for and how I would use this book, how into detail that it goes. Paula: [00:32:13] Because some people want more detailed books, like as my kids got into elementary school I told them a lot more than what we were talking about when they were 2 and 3. Paula: [00:32:21] But we did start these conversations legitimately, when my kids were 2 and 3. And so I talk through each of the books with a picture with an affiliate link. Paula: [00:32:29] These are all going to Amazon. You know I don't like Amazon but this is just where those books are. So it's all of this. Paula: [00:32:38] And I just link to it at the bottom of this very emotional, very personal post, about overcoming child abuse and talking to your kids about it. And then say "If you want to read more, if you want to learn how to talk to your kids about this, click here I've created this resource for you." Jillian: [00:32:54] Wow. Paula: [00:32:55] And so people have this emotional experience with me but I'm not just leaving them. Jillian: [00:33:02] Yep. Like, "buy my stuff." Paula: [00:33:03] Yes. And I'm also not leaving them there. They want to action it because they're feeling something. Jillian: [00:33:08] Yes. Paula: [00:33:08] And so then they click through. Only the people who are interested in actually click through and then they but the books. Paula: [00:33:15] I wrote this post years and years ago. On Amazon you can see exactly what's purchased and so many of these books still sell every single month. Paula: [00:33:24] It makes me so happy because I know so many kids are getting educated on this. Paula: [00:33:27] But it works because I don't promote this post otherwise. Like the images for it are abysmal and just the topic like how do you phrase, "how to teach your kids about child abuse" in a way that makes people want to click on it? You can't do it. Jillian: [00:33:41] No. Paula: [00:33:41] Not until they've first read this other post. Creating an affiliate marketing purchasing funnel Jillian: [00:33:43] Right. I mean you've created a purchasing funnel. Paula: [00:33:49] Yeah I guess so. Jillian: [00:33:50] The idea behind the funnel is somebody comes in at the top and they kind of go down the funnel and funnel gets smaller. Jillian: [00:33:59] Meaning that lots of people at the top, but not everybody comes out the bottom. But that you're being intentional as you move through, so that they trust you, so that they understand what they're buying. Jillian: [00:34:10] And you're kind of guiding them rather than being like, Oh here's this personal post and just here are some links to buy stuff.  You're saying OK you want to learn more, go here. Jillian: [00:34:22] And this is more of me because you're putting yourself into these posts, into the post with the books. Paula: [00:34:29] Yes. They already know me and like me, presumably from the first post. Jillian: [00:34:33] Right. Paula: [00:34:34] Or they wouldn't have clicked through. Where if they just came upon that post all on its own. And I feel like this is how a lot of those round up posts end up, like you're kind of annoyed. Paula: [00:34:42] You're like, oh I thought this was going to be really helpful and it's just them selling a bunch of products. Paula: [00:34:47] Where if there is a step one. Now instead of landing on that post and being annoyed, they're landing on that post and being like, oh my gosh this is so helpful. She did all the work for me and I can figure out what I want. Jillian: [00:34:59] Yes. Paula: [00:34:59] So that second page post is actually really really powerful, and can convert a lot of sales because you're really doing all the work for them. Even for like other products like this. Paula: [00:35:12] This is one I haven't done but is on my list to do this month. I See Me brand that I keep talking about, I sell a ton of their books because I have all of this content about becoming a big sibling, and they have a personalized book specifically for becoming big sibling. Paula: [00:35:28] And so I sell those in the post themselves, but I could actually do a review post. Which I'm not a review blogger and generally like just promoting a review post on its own, I'm like "yuck." Paula: [00:35:40] I know that there are review bloggers and those are valuable on their blogs, but on other people's blogs I'm like, why are you just reviewing something, that's annoying. Paula: [00:35:47] But I can tuck this review post, I'll backdate it on my site so it's not on my home page. It's not what I'm known for, but I can put like "for a full review of this product click here" in those other posts. Jillian: [00:35:57] Right. Right. Paula: [00:36:00] Or same with MiloTree, doing a whole review of Milotree and putting it on my front page, not going to do it. I love you, but I'm not going to do it. Jillian: [00:36:07] No, I get it. Paula: [00:36:07] But I mention MiloTree in a lot of my blog posts, and it's helpful to be able to have a little like, "I use MiloTree, it saves me time in growing my social media." That's like one point in a post of maybe 10 points about social media growth. Paula: [00:36:23] But I can link them to "here's a full review of MiloTree, I'm going to tell you everything about how amazing it is. If you're interested." Paula: [00:36:31] But you didn't have to spend 45 minutes scrolling past that interview about MiloTree if you already have it, you already know about it, you already love it. Paula: [00:36:39] So it's really kind of serving people better by making them click a second time. Jillian: [00:36:43] Yeah and having these very focused posts. Paula: [00:36:48] Yes. Jillian: [00:36:50] Again where you go down that funnel like fewer people are going to click on your second post than clicked on your first post. Paula: [00:36:57] Right, but those people have an intent to buy. Jillian: [00:37:00] Right and you want to get to those people and make them feel comfortable and get them excited to actually make the purchase. Jillian: [00:37:06] Versus, I see, gosh how many products a day. Like thousands? And how many do I buy a day? Maybe less than one? Paula: [00:37:18] Right, of course. Jillian: [00:37:20] But it is interesting to see as a consumer are going through your experience on the internet. What is it that makes you want to buy? Jillian: [00:37:32] Think about your own behavior. And even now hearing you tell the story as you're talking about the second page, if I went to that page. I would buy. But I wouldn't necessarily buy on the first page. Paula: [00:37:48] And if I came to that second page on its own I wouldn't buy. Jillian: [00:37:52] No. Paula: [00:37:53] But if I came to it from the first page I would. And that's what's so fascinating about it to me. Jillian: [00:37:57] I get it, it's a little bit like connecting the dots and help holding my hand through the purchasing journey. Paula: [00:38:05] Yes. Yes. And you're making this sale personal instead of just trying to make the sale. Paula: [00:38:11] Because people know if they're being sold to and it annoys them. Jillian: [00:38:16] Yes. Paula: [00:38:18] And some people won't even buy from you if you're trying to sell to them. It's counterintuitive because we just said people won't mind if they like you, and that relational piece is what makes the difference. Paula: [00:38:30] The difference is between people knowing they're being sold to and being angry, and people knowing they're being sold to and thanking you for it. Jillian: [00:38:36] Right. Paula: [00:38:37] People in my real life have thanked me for the second page post because they purchased the books. Paula: [00:38:43] But that's how you can know, how authentic it was because sometimes when I do things people in my real life are like "really" or "you're doing that? That's not necessarily in line with who you are as a person." And I'm like I know, but it is for my readers or whatever. Jillian: [00:39:01] Right. Paula: [00:39:01] But for something like that and for an affiliate thing, people in my real life know how true this is and they go buy. Jillian: [00:39:10] Right. They can feel it. Paula: [00:39:13] And my readers can feel the same thing. They don't know me personally but they think they do, and they go buy. Jillian: [00:39:19] Right. OK give me one last tip. Paula: [00:39:24] I feel like it would be remiss to talk about affiliates without talking about the FTC. FTC regulations for affiliate marketing Jillian: [00:39:29] OK let's do it. Paula: [00:39:31] So we're going to have the link to the FTC in the show notes. Jillian: [00:39:36] Great. Paula: [00:39:36] And I'm going to say to bookmark this page. Because every few months there will be a meltdown on Facebook about the FTC changing rules. Paula: [00:39:47] Or is this allowed or is that allowed or whatever. And I don't even engage in those conversations anymore because people get so irritated with each other. And so just in their head about what they allowed to do and what they're not. Jillian: [00:40:00] Yes. Paula: [00:40:01] And I'm very strict about the FTC rules. Like I absolutely do not just look at what everyone else is doing and follow them because most bloggers are breaking the law. Jillian: [00:40:10] OK good. I mean I'm glad we're getting to this. Paula: [00:40:15] Doing #aff is not legal. Jillian: [00:40:17] OK. Paula: [00:40:18] "Affiliate link" is not legal. That's just not according to the FTC. But the FTC is very clear about what they want. They don't say you have to say xyz, you can do it in an authentic way. Paula: [00:40:30] You can do it in a way that makes sense for you. But you have to disclose. You have to disclose it properly. And it has to be able to be understood by the average person. Paula: [00:40:42] That's where they are at right now, and this is August of 2018. So if this is anything but August 2018 when you are listening, click that FTC link that we're giving you and go make sure that it's the same. Paula: [00:40:52] Because that's the frustrating thing to me. This is the reason why these conversations get brought up and people freak out about it all the time. It is because they'll listen to a podcast or they'll read an old blog post and it's from 2015 when the FTC had different rules. Paula: [00:41:08] And so then they're like oh my gosh, I have to change everything and they get everybody riled up on Facebook, and people are freaking out and you need to just go to the FTC yourself and read it. Paula: [00:41:15] It's much simpler now than it used to be. It makes sense. I'm still annoyed that we have to do it. But that's just a pet peeve. Jillian: [00:41:24] Yeah. Paula: [00:41:24] And you can do it in a way that that's authentic and that makes sense to your site. Like "I've partnered with these people I adore them."You know I try to make it authentic sounding. Paula: [00:41:34] On social media it's more difficult to do that and oftentimes I'll just put ad. Jillian: [00:41:37] Right. Right. Paula: [00:41:39] Because you can't put "affiliate link". And I know that for people industry like "it's not an ad!!!" I know that, but that's all that the average consumer understands and so I'll put AD. Jillian: [00:41:50] We did a lot of work with Bounty. And the truth is I use Bounty and I love it. The environmentalists out there, you might not like me because I love paper towels. Jillian: [00:42:00] Anyway but I would write, "This is a sponsor post, we are partnered with Bounty but I do love Bounty, I use it every day". Paula: [00:42:13] Absolutely. And I actually in some of those I have a second page for my disclosure as well. Not the legal disclosure that we all have to have up. But I have a page that explains sponsorship to my readers. Paula: [00:42:26] So it's like if you have any questions, click here and on it I explain, this is my full time job. This is why I do these sponsored posts. Paula: [00:42:35] Also I'm able to tell them, you know sometimes I get really high paying jobs and I've turned down a $900 job before because I didn't believe in the company. And that means something to people. Paula: [00:42:47] They're like OK she's not just literally shilling for anybody. Like yeah I did the blog post about the water, or it was a tweet. But did I think that that was really changing anyone's life? No but it was helpful. Paula: [00:42:57] And I believe in the brand and the service that they were offering. It was kind of a unique-ish service with water but I still laugh about it, but it worked. It was OK I don't feel bad about it. Paula: [00:43:07] But then there was a laser hair removal post that I was offered a lot of money to do, and I was like I can't, I'm just interested in that. It didn't work with my readers. Paula: [00:43:23] But I can put all of that information there and kind of explain my heart behind sponsorship behind affiliate links behind why I'm making money on this. And I'm not trying to take advantage of them. Paula: [00:43:33] And for the few people who care, or are curious, they click through and I have gotten some click throughs on it. And I think that it builds trust for those people. Paula: [00:43:41] Without me having to spend a whole paragraph explaining I'm doing this in a way that's not lying to you. I'm not misleading you. I can keep that authentic. Paula: [00:43:51] And yes I adore this brand, and I normally try to put those things in there but I can keep it to a sentence, and then have another link out to something else that's a little bit longer that shares a little bit more of my story. Paula: [00:44:03] Like I sent back product to a brand because I emailed them and said I'm going to give you a bad review, or you can take your product and run. And they took their product and ran. Being authentic and honest with affiliate marketing Paula: [00:44:12] Things like that happen and I'm not just going to give a good review to get paid. Jillian: [00:44:16] One thing I really like about what you're saying is you will use pages on your blog or a second post to elaborate, to tell who you are to be your authentic self. Jillian: [00:44:36] You recognize most people don't care. But for the people that do you're going to go that extra step and explain yourself. Jillian: [00:44:48] And if somebody wants to know who you are by reading your blog they can. Paula: [00:44:55] Yes.. And that's important to me, and as a writer, it is easier for me to do that. I feel like some people who writing is not their thing. It's hard enough to get this blog post out today. I'm not writing a second blog post. Paula: [00:45:10] I get that for sure, and you can do some of these things in video form, if that's easier for you just set up your iPhone and have a chat with your readers or just space it out a little bit more. Paula: [00:45:20] I have now this initial second post that I was writing about with the books I have like 6 posts that all point to the second post now. Paula: [00:45:29] And so you can try to create things like that as well where you can look and say you know these four posts on my site do pretty well. Paula: [00:45:37] I'm kind of like halfway way trying to sell this product in each of them. I'm going to write one more post, even if writing is a challenge. I'm going to write one more post and really sell this product and just link to it in all four of these posts and you'll see more results from that than you will from writing a brand new post and linking it in as an afterthought. Jillian: [00:45:58] Yes and I talk about this a lot, which is you want to find your thousand true fans. You don't need a million, and if you get an extra fan because you've explained yourself and how you feel about affiliate marketing, chances are somebody is going to read that page and you will have turned them into a raving fan. Paula: [00:46:22] Yes. Instead of just mildly interested. Jillian: [00:46:27] Yeah and by the way I'm sure those pages do not get a lot of traffic. Paula: [00:46:32] Oh not at all. They've never been in the top 10. They're probably not even in the top 100. Jillian: [00:46:36] But kudos to you if you could get somebody interested enough to want to know more. Paula: [00:46:44] Yes. Well there are pages in my top 10 that will never make me a dime other than ads of course. Jillian: [00:46:50] Yes. Paula: [00:46:50] There's this post I did when Beauty and the Beast came out .It got I think like 300,000 pages in 2 days or something insane. Paula: [00:46:59] But nobody bought anything for me. Nobody stuck around. Nobody cared about me other than my opinion on Beauty and the Beast, and a lot of people got really angry about me for my opinion. Paula: [00:47:18] I got a huge payout from my ad network from those 300,000 views, that was insane. Paula: [00:47:28] But, today it's like 18 months since Beauty and the Beast came out. My blog has had no positive impact from that post at all. Jillian: [00:47:35] Right. Paula: [00:47:36] Where the 10 people, I don't know, maybe it's 50. I don't look at the numbers on the second page posts hardly ever. Paula: [00:47:42] But however many, very few people read that post every single month has a huge impact on my blog because they make purchases. Because they stick around, because they send it to their auntie or their mom. Paula: [00:47:55] Because they're like, hey I'm trying this new thing with my kid and he did not just like force hugs on him anymore or whatever. Paula: [00:48:01] It's being passed around and it's changing people's lives. Which is important to me. Paula: [00:48:06] I know that's not important to every blogger, and it doesn't need to be but that's important to me and the pages that matter on my site reflect that. Jillian: [00:48:14] Wow. Paula I love this. Jillian: [00:48:17] It's like you get to change people's lives you get to make the world a better place and you get to make money. Paula: [00:48:22] Yes. Which is also nice, I'm not against the money. Jillian: [00:48:25] No. Then that's the thing. But it's like finding those things like the wiggly kid. And it's exploring parts of yourself in your own life that you feel comfortable sharing. And figuring out how you can be of service to other people who might be struggling with this and find solutions to help somebody. Jillian: [00:48:45] And then the benefit make money off of it. Paula: [00:48:48] Right and don't feel bad about banking money off of it. Jillian: [00:48:52] Right. And then you can repeat it. Paula: [00:48:54] Exactly. You can find the next thing that will help someone and they're saying and the next thing. Paula: [00:48:59] And brands love it because they know that that's converting true fans, and you know your readers love it and you love it. And it's that's the sweet spot for me, has to be Happy Brand, Happy Reader, Happy Me. Jillian: [00:49:13] So Paula this is great. So if people want to learn more about affiliate marketing, about how to take their their post to the next level. How could they reach out to you? How can they work with you? Working with Paula Rollo to learn more about affiliate marketing Paula: [00:49:28] So I offer a few different services because I feel like everybody's in a different place, and has different needs. And I'm passionate about affiliate marketing so I want to be able to help you wherever you are in that. Paula: [00:49:42] So I do affiliate masterclasses where I just kind of teach you some of what we were talking about today, and how to implement this. I walk through it with you. But it's a group setting. So that's the low budget option. Paula: [00:49:58] Then there's also one-on-one coaching. If you're like, I don't know what my blog needs, but I need it to be working with affiliates I need to do better. But you want to do it yourself. Paula: [00:50:09] I can do one on one coaching with you where I'll go through your site and I'll come up with a plan for you. And then we'll talk on the phone and I'll give you that plan and tell you how to implement it. Paula: [00:50:18] And that's always really fun because people feel like very empowered that they did this themselves. But they have all the tools they need to do it which is important. So we don't get stuck spinning our wheels. So it removes all of that worry and just lets you know exactly what will work for your site. Paula: [00:50:35] And then the last thing I do is affiliate management which is different. Like I do it on both sides so like for Jillian, I do manage her affiliate program and so all of her affiliates I talk to them and I help them do well. Paula: [00:50:50] But I do the other side as well, where if you're a blogger and you know that you need to implement affiliates. Maybe you have some idea of what brands you want to work with, maybe you don't. But you can hire me to come and optimize your site for affiliates. Paula: [00:51:07] So I'll add the affiliate links in your site. I'll add the images .I'll go through everything and update it. Because I know when I started working with affiliates I was like 800 post deep in my blog and it took me like 18 months to to add all the affiliate links that I knew I needed to add. And do everything that I knew I needed to do. Paula: [00:51:27] But the reality of having a business and trying to add in something else is a little bit daunting. Jillian: [00:51:32] So if people were to reach out to you what is the best way. Paula: [00:51:38] Yes you can email me directly my personal email is just my name. PaulaRollo@gmail.com And if you reach out to me personally, I'll get back to you and we can talk strategy and figure out what you want done. Or I can help you figure out what might be the best fit for you. Paula: [00:51:55] Anything like that just let's have a conversation and figure it out. Jillian: [00:51:59] I love that. OK wait we have to do one more plug for MiloTree. So if you have not joined our affiliate program, definitely do it's on the bottom of our home page you can see a link. Jillian: [00:52:10] We'll put a link in the show notes. But you'll get to hear from Paula and from me and hopefully to be honest, when I get to send money to our affiliates, it makes me really happy. Paula: [00:52:24] Yes. Everybody's winning in that scenario. Jillian: [00:52:27] Absolutely. Absolutely. So anyway Paula I love working with you. Thank you for being my right hand person. And thank you for coming on the show for part 2. And we will come back and do more affiliate stuff in part 3. Paula: [00:52:44] Thank you for having me. Please give The Blogger Genius Podcast a five star review on iTunes Jillian: [00:52:46] I hope you enjoyed this episode. And if you're liking the blogger genius podcast please head to iTunes and give give us a five star review. It will really help. Jillian: [00:52:58] It will help other people be able to find the podcast. It will help me get really good guests and I thank you in advance. So thank you.  

Today my guest is Nicole Culver, founder of the food company, Blissful Eats, and creator of her own business consulting and coaching business. In this episode, we talk about how to know when you need to pivot your business. Nicole started her granola company in 2011, got it into Whole Foods, but ultimately decided to shut it down to focus on her consulting and coaching business. And this has lead to even bigger success. We talk about the need to stay flexible, how to pivot faster, and why as women, we can't stop apologizing! You'll learn so much from Nicole in this episode, listen now! Resources: Nicole Culver Blissful Eats Catch My Party Blog Boss Podcast MiloTree Blogger to Business Amy Porterfield podcast with Brooke Castillo Social Shift Facebook Group Transcript: How to Know When You Need to Pivot Your Business with Nicole Culver Host: [00:00:03] Welcome to the Blogger Genius podcast brought to you by MiloTree. Here's your host, Jillian Leslie. Jillian: [00:00:10] Hello, everybody. Welcome back to The Blogger Genius. Today my guest is Nicole Culver. Now Nicole helps women, especially women in the health and wellness industry, grow their businesses. Jillian: [00:00:24] Previously before this, she had her own food company called Blissful Eats. So welcome to the show, Nicole. Nicole: [00:00:32] Hi. Thank you so much for having me. Jillian: [00:00:34] So just before we started recording I had mentioned to you, how you have your own food company and you started to talk about it. And I said well let's record this. So please tell me the genesis of how you started blogging, and how you built a food company ,and now how you've transitioned into helping other entrepreneurs. Nicole: [00:00:57] Yes, so it started just about ten years ago at this point. I was a fourth grade special ed teacher in New York City, and I was always getting asked about recipes that I made all the time from friends and family. Nicole: [00:01:11] So I just decided to start a blog, and there was definitely no growth strategy. It was just kind of like diary. Here is what I'm doing, here is what I'm making, here is what I'm eating. Kind of thing. How to start a food company Nicole: [00:01:24] And as I got more into it, I actually had a big life event where I lost someone really close to me. I just realized I did not want to be teaching anymore. I didn't want to be counting down the days. I didn't want to be living for weekends and vacations. Nicole: [00:01:39] So I started to plot my escape from teaching and I knew I needed to do something else because obviously my husband and I relied on my revenue stream for my income from teaching. Jillian: [00:01:50] Did you have kids at this time? Nicole: [00:01:52] I didn't. So it was just it was just me and my husband. So I had that luxury of kind of quitting,and trying to replace my income. But we could survive on his income, so that was definitely a positive thing for us. I went back to school to become a health coach, and I decided to give it a go as a health coach, and start a food company. Nicole: [00:02:14] So I got out of teaching at the end of June. I gave myself about six weeks to hit the ground running with a food company. And get out into my local community as much as I possibly can, and see if this was actually like a feasible thing that I could do. If there was a need, if there was a want, if there was interest in having a food company. Nicole: [00:02:37] And what I saw was, there was! So I was actually able to quit on August 15, 2011. I called my principal and I quit over the phone, which maybe not the best thing to do, but that's that's how I did it. So I ran Blissful Eats for seven years. Jillian: [00:02:56] Can you say, what kind of food company? And how did you come up with the concept? Starting a granola company Nicole: [00:03:01] Oh my gosh I know it's one of those things that it just feels like it was super easy, so you don't talk about it. I was always making granola. I was always making baked goods for my students, for other colleagues, or friends family my husband. Nicole: [00:03:15] So I just decided to start and sell those. So I came up with the name actually from Joseph Campbell's quote: "Follow your bliss." Originally it was Pure Bliss. But once we went to trademark it, that was a trademarked name because someone else actually had that food company. So we went with Blissful Eats. Nicole: [00:03:36] I changed it pretty quickly, so there wasn't a whole lot of worry about that even though at that time, it felt like oh my god, I have to change my name, how am I ever going to do this? We got over it. We changed our name and it wasn't it wasn't that bad at all. Nicole: [00:03:50] So yeah, it started out as basically all baked goods, which then I quickly realized to have a ton of products, to have a huge product line, very hard to scale down and pick the one thing that you're really good at, that is the majority of your sales. Is way way better. Jillian: [00:04:07] Yes way better. Yes. Okay. And so were you baking granola in your kitchen? Nicole: [00:04:14] So I was at first, for free which in New York we have a really really strict laws. It's different wherever you are in the country. You should just definitely look into it if that's something that you want to do. Nicole: [00:04:27] But you cannot sell products that you make out of your kitchen. So what I did was, we went around and we made up granola and we just saw if people were interested because you can you can give it away for free. Essentially if that's, if that's what you want to do. Nicole: [00:04:44] But we quickly moved to a commercial kitchen in Queens, New York and baked everything there. We got licenses, we got insured, all the by the book things, because we were really taking it seriously as a business. Jillian: [00:04:57] How much money did you invest in your business to start to launch it? Nicole: [00:05:02] So to start it, not that much, probably just whatever the ingredients, and the licensing, and the time is was. But over the course of the seven years, a lot of money. We were self-funded for seven years. Nicole: [00:05:16] We had done a Kickstarter, so we raised some money like that. But that's one of the reasons why we actually stopped doing Blissful Eats, is because while we were making over six figures in revenue, the profit, everything was constantly going back in the business. Pivoting your business Nicole: [00:05:33] So I had this coaching and consulting side of my business that was extremely profitable, and then I have this physical product business that was not profitable at all. So I had to basically decide, OK do I want to spend time with my third baby girl, or do I want to keep running myself into the ground in a business that's not profitable, and I just don't want to do it anymore, honestly. Jillian: [00:05:57] Right. And what would you say to somebody who has this vision of, I want to make a product, I'm a baker or whatever, I want to sell something. What would you say, because you were making revenue. But again it sounds like it was your expenses and investing back into your business, was not putting food on your on your plate. Nicole: [00:06:22] Yeah so let me first say that no one, nothing anyone could have said to me, would have changed the course of our business. And actually I had some fantastic advice at the time of my second child, when she was born and it definitely changed the path of her business. Nicole: [00:06:39] When I started out, I thought that we would have been a national company. I was really really wanting to like rise to the top, and be one of the most sold granolas, and really changed the way that the granola industry was. The challenges of a selling a product in retail stores Nicole: [00:06:53] After years, being in that business, I realized that to be a national company and national brand, it takes a lot of money and a lot of investment, and that's when I got really good advice from another top top food company owner, of a food company who traveled 48 out of 52 weeks in the year and she actually didn't have any kids, and she was just like listen, if you want to be home with your kids, essentially you can't do both. So you have to pick. Nicole: [00:07:24] And that's when I was like, oh my gosh, thank you so much for that advice because there's no way I would pick my business over my kids. So we totally switched. We pulled out of Whole Foods at that time. We totally went online and decided that we weren't going to do retail, that we were going to focus on online sales. Nicole: [00:07:44] So my advice to people would be number one, I get it. I get that you're passionate, I was the same way, I have that same fire under me and it's amazing. Target your ideal customer and selling direct Nicole: [00:07:55] So definitely use that fire, but do it on your own with your own money for as long as you possibly can, and just really target who your ideal customer is. Nicole: [00:08:06] Because if you can sell direct to customers, your revenue and your profit, your profit margins are going to be way higher than if you need to bring in all sorts of distributors and food brokers and supermarkets, things like that. Nicole: [00:08:20] So I would sell direct as long as you possibly can, and really hone in on your messaging, and getting to know your clients, and figuring out what they really want. Before you expand in a bigger way. Jillian: [00:08:33] Got it. Now when did you shut this down? What it's like to shut down your business Nicole: [00:08:36] February. Jillian: [00:08:37] Wow and how was that emotionally? Nicole: [00:08:42] Emotionally it was super hard, and I've been super transparent with my membership, my Blogger to Business group about it because it was something that was looming. It was something that we knew we should have done probably a year ago. Nicole: [00:08:57] Actually in February 2017, my husband and I sat down, and we were like, we're going to give this one more year. We're going to see how this goes. Nicole: [00:09:06] But quite honestly, the entire last year, every time we would work on that side of the business, because it really was running on autopilot, we would get a huge pit in our stomach, and we would be like oh my gosh. Nicole: [00:09:17] He'd be like, OK let's work on Blissful Eats and then I'd be like, let's not work on Blissful Eats. So it was something we should have done way sooner. But fear was holding us back. Nicole: [00:09:27] And also that was our identity for seven years. Our family knew us as a granola company, our friends, we had made a name for ourselves in our community, and it was really hard to disassociate ourselves from that, and to be like, oh actually we shut down. But this is a really good thing for us. Nicole: [00:09:47] Because people think like you shut down something must've went wrong, and we were like no actually this is so right. So that was hard and it was hard to explain even to like my in-laws they didn't really understand now what we were doing when we shifted away from Blissful Eats. The emotions involved in pivoting your business Nicole: [00:10:07] So it was really hard. It was really emotional. It was something we should have done way way sooner but we weren't ready and it took us that big change of like my February 28 date which my daughter didn't actually end up coming until a week later than that but it was like OK we need to tell people because I can't continue to live, like it felt like almost like a fake life at that point. Jillian: [00:10:32] That is so interesting because I would say we have our original businesses called Catch My Party. And when people ask me like what are the biggest mistakes you made with Catch My party. I would say not pivoting faster when something wasn't working. Jillian: [00:10:50] Kind of saying no no no, It could work, and we could make this. You know so we opened a store on Catch My Party, it was a white label store, another party supplier, it was their products, but we were selling them, and we're like a no brainer. We're a party ideas site. This should work. Jillian: [00:11:09] And so we kept at it, and in hindsight the writing was on the wall. It didn't connect and we weren't getting sales, and we were but not like we thought we would. Jillian: [00:11:22] And again, I think it was like we felt like we could fix this, we could solve it, we'll give it more time and then ultimately we had to pivot and say nope, this isn't working. And and then afterwards there was tremendous relief. Nicole: [00:11:38] Yeah so much. Jillian: [00:11:40] Almost like we put down this heavy weight. But we were so stuck in our thinking the same idea. Of course we should have a party store, it just made sense for us and we were known as that and we were growing. And so I would say that that for us, it was our biggest mistake that cost us a lot of money. Nicole: [00:12:03] Yeah yeah yeah. Yes. Same. Jillian: [00:12:06] So was your husband working with you on Blissful Eats, or has he always had his own career? Working with your husband in your online business Nicole: [00:12:13] So my husband, I think this is his three year anniversary of quitting his job in New York City. He was a financial planner for some construction companies actually, so he had a traditional job, and three years ago in August he put in his two weeks notice, and quit his job to work more with Blissful Eats. Nicole: [00:12:35] And he did take on some some other clients on the side for financial planning, and to help him because Blissful Eats, like we said, it hadn't been making a profit. So he basically split his week between working with us for it, and working with other clients, but he has been along for the ride for the past three years basically. Jillian: [00:12:58] And how has it been for your marriage., letting go of Blissful Eats? Nicole: [00:13:01] Oh my gosh, so much better. There was so much stress, and it got to the point where it was like, OK should we pack orders ourself, or should I do consults for my coaching and consulting business. And when I tell you it was like pennies, not even getting paid because the profit wasn't there. Nicole: [00:13:21] But it was just like you get a 20 dollar order of granola, or a 40 dollar order of granola, and then you have to print the labels, you have to pack the boxes, you have to send them out, or put them out on the stoop for USPS. The amount of time and energy it took was just insane comparatively to the coaching and consulting. So when we let that go, it was just a huge huge weight off our shoulders. Jillian: [00:13:47] I bet I bet. I mean again I work with my husband. So everything gets kind of intertwined, and that can be such a positive. And though when things are not going well, or you have to make those hard choices. You can't really separate it because it's your life. Nicole: [00:14:05] Yes 100 percent. And it was something that we both knew should happen, but neither one of us wanted to say it to the other person. So it was unspoken, and I'm sure my husband felt like he didn't want to say it to me, because it was like my business baby, it was my idea it was my vision. Nicole: [00:14:23] So he, I'm sure I'm sure, I wanted to say it a million times. I actually haven't even ever asked him that. I'm sure he wanted to say it a million times to me, and I wanted to say it a million times to him. But it was like such a crutch for us, that we just kept trying to bang our heads against the wall and make it work. Starting a coaching business Jillian: [00:14:42] Right. Now tell me then about the coaching business, so how did that start? So your thing is we are a granola company, right? We we are going to sell our granola all over the world, and be tha,t and then where did coaching and helping other entrepreneurs, how did that show up for you? Nicole: [00:15:02] So I wanted, I needed another outlet essentially, because we had this business, but I needed something else to do with my time. Essentially I had my second daughter in 2015, and after my husband quit his job, I just actually had some extra time. Nicole: [00:15:21] I actually started podcasting, and with podcasting, I started getting questions about how we grew our food business, and we had gotten into Whole Foods, we had gotten in Thrive Market, we had gotten on Amazon, we had been doing Facebook ads. Nicole: [00:15:36] So people started asking us questions. How did you grow? How are you getting customers? How are you honing in on selling? How are you doing Facebook ads? So I started talking about it on my podcast, and I started interviewing other women in the food and wellness industry on my podcast. Nicole: [00:15:56] So I saw there was a need, my podcast had grown pretty quickly. I was doing three episodes a week. I did that for a just about a year, and then I went to two and then I took a break. Nicole: [00:16:12] Is your part is your podcast still going? Nicole: [00:16:14] Not right now. Jillian: [00:16:16] Okay, but if people want to go check out your older episodes what is it? Nicole: [00:16:20] It's called Blissful Bites. Jillian: [00:16:22] OK. Got it. Nicole: [00:16:24] So I just started getting more questions. So actually I took all the people that I interviewed on my podcast and friends I had met through blogging. and I just said. hey would you want to do a virtual summit? And I had 23 people who were like, yeah ok. What is a virtual summit? Jillian: [00:16:41] Can you explain what a virtual summit is? Nicole: [00:16:44] Basically it was an online masterclass. It was a series of online masterclasses, so basically it was a video. It was around 30 to 45 minutes long. And it was around all different subjects to grow your online business. Nicole: [00:17:02] I wasn't super comfortable being the center of that. But I was super comfortable interviewing my friends and asking them questions. So that's where this summit idea came from. Nicole: [00:17:13] So in May 2016 I put out my first virtual Summit, and I actually charged for it. Something super low it was like $57 for earlybird and then I think it went up to like $75 after that, and I sold like 100. I should know this number but it was like 150 tickets we ended up doing, like a little over $11,000 in sales and $8,000 in profit. Jillian: [00:17:40] Wow. Nicole: [00:17:41] When we did that, I was like I've never made this much profit before. What is going on here? This is something I'm on to something. Jillian: [00:17:50] It's a virtual product which is very different from something that you make in a vat in a factory and a kitchen, and have to ship routes out. Nicole: [00:17:58] Yes. Right. And it was only about, it only cost me $3,000 so it was $11,000 in revenue, $8,000 I think it was even a little higher than $8,000 in profit. And I was like ,oh my gosh I am on to something here. Nicole: [00:18:16] And that was I mean, it was not straight up, I don't wanna make it seem like, oh there were no struggles, no challenges, I just got sales but it was a squiggly road. But I knew I had something there. How to find the revenue drivers that work in your online business Jillian: [00:18:28] Yeah. And again, it's so interesting because again for us ,like when we open this party store on Catch My Party, it was like we launched it and there were crickets meaning we just weren't getting sales, like a couple sales would come in and we would say, see this is going to work. Jillian: [00:18:47] But then there have been other things that we've done, like we pulled in products from Etsy and we get affiliate revenue from Etsy, and all of a sudden we turn it on, and there were sales, and it was like, oh! When something works it kind of works. Nicole: [00:19:07] Yes totally. Jillian: [00:19:09] And the idea of banging your head against the wall, is like look, notice if there is something in your business and you're banging your head against a wall, and you're not making money, go a different direction. The importance of being flexible in your online business Nicole: [00:19:21] Yes totally. And it's so important to be fluid and flexible. And I talk a lot about this in my membership, my Blogger to Business group, because so many people get hung up on like what's my five year vision. Nicole: [00:19:34] And that's great. But when I do my five year vision I wrote down what I want my day to look like, how I want to feel, because if I, five years ago, I was dead set on growing my granola business, and if I wasn't fluid and flexible and reflective, then I would still be banging my head against the wall and worried on, I need to get to my five year vision. Nicole: [00:19:56] But instead, my five year vision was like working with my husband, dropping my kids off at school. Being able to take off when they need me to, being around for my kids. It was around those things, not getting Blissful Eats to be a national company, which is what I thought it would have been. Nicole: [00:20:13] But it's changed so many times over since then. And if I was so rigid I never would have been open to shutting it down. The value of creating micro-adjustments in your life Jillian: [00:20:21] I love that, I love that. In fact somebody said this to me which is that in order to not have like a midlife crisis the solution is micro adjustments. Nicole: [00:20:33] Yes. Yes. Jillian: [00:20:34] That you don't all of a sudden wake up one day go like, this is not the life I wanted, but that you're constantly evaluating, does this feel right? Is this working? Am I making money? Does this fit with my kids, and where they are, and my husband, and if it's not do a micro adjustment try something new. Nicole: [00:20:56] Yes. It's so true. I actually held a retreat over the weekend with my husband, and that was one of the things that we talked about, just because we had some people who just weren't, they were stressing, and they were working all the time, and we just talked about, if you fix it now, it's not going to take that much to fix it. Nicole: [00:21:15] Now it's not going to take that much to spend a half hour with your husband, or to spend a half hour with someone you really love. But in five years from now, 10 years from now, that wedge is going to be way bigger, and it's going to be so much harder to fix. So just do it now, so you're not saying like, I wish I worked less in five years from now. Jillian: [00:21:34] I so agree. OK so let's go back you all of a sudden boom, you made $8,000 in profit, and you think to yourself what? Nicole: [00:21:45] I thought to myself How do I continue this? How do I continue to build the momentum? And I didn't know what I wanted to do. Nicole: [00:21:54] But the first thing I did after that first summit was I did a master class series which went ok. I think we sold like it under 20, but above 10 I will say it was like 15, where it was just one different expert call a month for three months and it got us through basically through the summer. Nicole: [00:22:18] I don't even remember how much I charge for it,  but I know it wasn't much maybe like $100. But again it was like people bought this. This is super cool. Nicole: [00:22:27] And then from there, in September 2016 will be two years next month, and we've launched actually a membership site for $19. I had 20 people purchasing it and I've been doing that ever since. Building an online membership site Jillian: [00:22:44] So what does your membership site give you? Nicole: [00:22:48] So again like evolution, when it when it started those people I have probably 15 of those people still with me now which is so amazing. They're my original original people and I love them still. Nicole: [00:23:09] So now what you get when you sign up for the membership, is you get a monthly download. So it's like a monthly guidebook. We call it. So that has all different topics. Nicole: [00:23:20] We actually are working on confidence this month. We have worked on profit. We've worked on growing your audience. We've worked on mindset. But what I'm actually noticing more and more, as I'm always in the group trying to get to know people better, is that the number one thing, and I don't know if this is a woman thing, because my group is 100 percent women. We need to work on our confidence in our business. Nicole: [00:23:44] So we've been, I don't want to say transitioning, because I have content on email marketing, on growing your Instagram, on growing your Pinterest. I have all that content, but what I'm finding is the Facebook group alone, and the support in the Facebook group is worth the price of the membership, and that is what I'm hearing over and over again. Nicole: [00:24:08] So even I don't know how many people use the playbooks. I think the more aligned they are with emotional issues the more people use them actually because I think people just kind of need the content as they go. Nicole: [00:24:22] But everyone needs help with confidence. Everyone needs help with mindset. So it's really really interesting, but basically it's a guidebook a month. There is a whole membership portal on growing your business. But the two main things are the guidebookm the accountability and the Facebook group. Jillian: [00:24:41] And it's a private Facebook group? You get added to the Facebook Group by being a member? Nicole: [00:24:47] Exactly. So when you sign up, you actually get a quiz. And it levels you at what stage of business you are in, and tells you what to work on. If I'm at the grow your audience, means I need to work here, here is what I need to work on to grow my audience and you to get to know them. And here are videos that go along with it. That's the first thing. Nicole: [00:25:05] But then you get into the group and it's really like that support that you need. Like I'm not crazy, I'm not doing this alone, support. Jillian: [00:25:14] Right. Right. I will just say in terms of the confidence thing. One thing that I am paying attention to in my own life is how often I apologize. Nicole: [00:25:24] Oh my gosh, we have been having this conversation in there so much. Growing confidence by not apologizing Jillian: [00:25:28] And just something dumb like this which is my husband too, is lovely. He's like a wonderful partner in every way. Does a lot of the grocery shopping, he does a lot. He's like a cook. You know chef, or whatever, he loves to cook. Jillian: [00:25:43] So one day, I had said to him,I put on the list, cottage cheese, and he comes back from the grocery store and I say, oh where's the cottage cheese. And he says, oh I forgot. And I go, oh and I'm weirdly waiting for him to say I'm really sorry that I forgot your cottage cheese. Jillian: [00:26:06] It's dumb, but I thought about it, and I thought had it been reversed, and he had wanted cottage cheese I would have come home and gone, oh my god, I'm so sorry I totally forgot your cottage cheese and I could go back to the grocery store and get if it's really important you, I could get cottage cheese for you. Jillian: [00:26:26] I would have gone through the whole story of being in the dairy aisle. And to him, like he's a good guy. So he was just like, yeah I forgot. He didn't even say, I'll get it for you next time. But he just was like, totally fine. I mean he I'm sure on some level felt like oh, I messed up, but he didn't say it, he didn't apologize. Jillian: [00:26:45] And I said to him like, wow, that's fascinating. You did not apologize for forgetting my cottage cheese, and had that been reversed I would have been up in my head even afterwards going, I can't believe I forgot the cottage cheese. Nicole: [00:27:02] Oh my gosh, I think I've totally been there 100 percent had the same conversation. It's so true. It's so true. Yeah it's everything from work emails, to being and I'm so sorry it took me ten minutes to get back to you. Or 20 minutes or 24 hours. It's just so innate to us to just apologize. Jillian: [00:27:21] Absolutely so I just tried to in my life, challenge myself, to when I catch myself, I'm sure nine times out of ten I don't. But when there is that opportunity that I catch myself I will go don't say it, just see what happens if you don't apologize. Jillian: [00:27:40] And also I have a daughter who's 11 and she will apologize and my husband and I both will go no apologies. So anyway that is just one place where I think like I said the cottage cheese thing like I would have spent so much mental energy in my head like wasted time going through that whole thing of I'm a bad girl. And you know without even knowing I'm doing it right. Nicole: [00:28:09] It's so true. And I think probably everyone listening to this right now, is nodding their head. Jillian: [00:28:14] Yes so if there is a moment when you can catch yourself, and not apologize see what happens. You know and go ahead in your head apologize like crazy, but try not to say it. See what happens. Nicole: [00:28:28] Yes. Oh my gosh. Yes. And actually someone in my group was just saying when she catches herself in email apologizing, she's just deleting it and just saying like, OK I'm deleting this and not apologizing. Jillian: [00:28:40] Yes. Yes. Anyway I feel like that is something that, especially as women, we do because we want to be nice and we please, and we want to take care and that's what makes women great. But in business it's also something where it undercuts us. Nicole: [00:29:01] Yeah it totally does. It totally does. And it also I think forces us to put other people before ourselves as well. Learning about how MiloTree can grow your email list Jillian: [00:29:08] I wanted to take a short break and share about this cool new thing we've added at MiloTree. So now you can add an image to your email pop up this way if you are offering the course or add an e-book or a free download, just add an image of it into your pop up so people know exactly what they're getting, and they're more enticed. Jillian: [00:29:31] And remember you can grow Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, Pinterest all from your account on MiloTree. So head over to MiloTree.com. If you sign up now you get your first 30 days free, so there's really no risk. And back to the show. Jillian: [00:29:48] OK so what's interesting, what you're saying is that in your group you found that it is people need to learn how to grow their email list. But there are these like fundamental things. Nicole: [00:29:58] Yes there are these important issues that I think are just blocking them from getting any further because they're not confident in what they're offering. Nicole: [00:30:07] And my group of people, which I'm sure is similar to the people who are listening, they are so talented and they're so amazing at what they do, but they can't stand in it because they have so much imposter syndrome, and they are kind of caught up with how the next person is better than them when they are so so talented themselves. How to believe in yourself as a female entrepreneur Nicole: [00:30:32] So we're really just working on standing in our magic and leveraging that to just be better business owners. But the confidence is like that first step. Jillian: [00:30:43] So in your Facebook group, how do people support each other? Nicole: [00:30:48] Oh my gosh, in so many ways, I wish I could even, and I know kind of every probably everyone feels this way about their Facebook group, but I seriously have the most supportive women in my group, who are just willing to put themselves out there, to share their stories of vulnerability, to share their stories of of what they've been through, and they just connect and support each other and they're so open with their growth. Nicole: [00:31:15] If they've done something that's working, they'll come to the group and share it with them. There is no feeling of like you're going to steal my success. It's that rising tides lifts all ships, or whatever that quote is, I always butcher those but we can all do that. Nicole: [00:31:32] We can all have success. We don't need to worry that you're going to steal my my business, my clients my Instagram followers. We can all do this together. Jillian: [00:31:41] Yes it's funny. I've had other guests on the podcast and we've talked about working with each other to help each other, and I feel like at its highest place, that is incredibly powerful. Jillian: [00:31:57] You know like small women entrepreneurs helping other, entrepreneurs whether it be with sharing content with each other or being in Facebook share groups, or all of that stuff. Like when it's working. It is magic. It's magic. How we compare ourselves to others. Jillian: [00:32:11] However there is also an underbelly to it which is it's hard not to compare yourself. It's hard to not, again because we're women, and we're very active in our own heads, to create stories that might not be true, of like, oh she slighted me. Did she? I don't know, but I can create a whole story about it. Jillian: [00:32:33] Or she's doing her life is so much better than my life, or who knows what it is. But as women we also, there can be a pettiness or there can be a competitiveness. Jillian: [00:32:44] And especially because we're women, and we want to please, we're not as willing to confront and say, hey did you mean this, is this you know, this is how I read this. Is this true or what? Jillian: [00:32:57] We all kind of want to make nice, but because we're all sitting here at our own computers, in our own little spaces, we can create narratives that can be really destructive, even if it's not true. Nicole: [00:33:11] Yes. And we totally can, and honestly I don't know how, but I don't see that in my group at all. I don't know how I literally don't know how I created this culture, and I've attracted amazing people who don't undercut each other. Nicole: [00:33:24] But I've seen it. I mean I've definitely seen it firsthand. And it is the stories we tell ourselves can go on forever I think. Jillian: [00:33:35] Yes. And I was listening to a podcast and it was saying that like an idle mind is an unhappy mind. Meaning a lot of times if you let your mind wander it will go into painful places whether it be feelings of inadequacy problems whatever and to just to be mindful that just like when we start to create stories a lot of times they're not always positive. Nicole: [00:34:11] And one of the best things I've heard, and I wish I could remember where I heard this, but I was talking about it, just like we compare ourselves but if we really want to compare ourselves, if you really want to compare yourself to me then compare when I was where you are. Nicole: [00:34:26] So if you're six months into your business, then let's go back and look at what my life was like six months into running my granola business. You can't compare someone's Chapter 1 to someone else's Chapter 12. Nicole: [00:34:38] So let's compare the real things here and that will give you some type of idea. Because a lot of times people want to compare what I'm doing to what they're doing when they've just started or they want to compare having one child to three working with three children. Nicole: [00:34:55] And what I'll tell them is when I had one child, I was a full-time mom, I didn't have my husband on my team full time. I didn't have all the things that I have now. So actually, I'll be super honest, having one child was a heck of a lot harder than having three children is. Jillian: [00:35:12] Absolutely. I think that is so powerful, I think that is really true. And also to know that somebody's life on Instagram is not their real life. Jillian: [00:35:28] So we see these beautiful photos and it looks so magical, and to continue to remind yourself that that's not real life. It's okay to unfollow people if they make you feel bad Nicole: [00:35:39] And I think it's important too, if you are feeling like if it's making you feel bad, then it's ok to unfollow. It's ok to shut down. It's OK to delete the app for a little bit. It doesn't mean you'll never go back to them, but you need to curate your space and make the people you follow really inspirational, make it feel good. Nicole: [00:35:59] If someone's content is making you feel bad over and over again, it's okay to just wish them well and click the unfollow button. Jillian: [00:36:09] Yes. So let's see. OK so who is the ideal person to join your group? Ideal customer to join Blogger to Business Nicole: [00:36:15] So I mainly work with wellness entrepreneurs, so that is the registered dietitians or the food bloggers, the food photographers, there are recipe developers. That's the majority of my business, or like the health coaches. Nicole: [00:36:29] I also have those business outliers who are like SEO experts, or book writers, who are in my group who just really want to community and business support. Nicole: [00:36:42] So my main people are in the food and wellness industry, who are bloggers and influencers who really want to grow their business in a way that we don't need to just focus on page views and followers, but we can focus on that connection and relationship and engagement over all those numbers. Jillian: [00:37:03] That's cool. That's great. And then so every month you're creating content for your group? Nicole: [00:37:10] Yes yes. Jillian: [00:37:12] So now you've got three kids, and is your husband working with you on this part of your business? Nicole: [00:37:19] Yeah so this is mainly what we work on, we take on an extremely limited amount of one-on-one clients. And then we have some small groups, we just launched a inner circle after our retreat, and we have our membership. So those are kind of like the three tiers to our business. But yes, he is with me. We juggle the kids and we juggle the business. Jillian: [00:37:43] Got it. OK. So how many hours a week are you working on your business right now? Nicole: [00:37:49] Barely anything. Jillian: [00:37:51] That's amazing. Nicole: [00:37:52] Summer camp and school which are really weird. It's a very hard time of year, where we have very little structure and it's not doing us any good. Jillian: [00:38:05] What do you mean? Nicole: [00:38:05] Just our kids, it's hard to have a lack of routine. So we're kind of trying to work it between the crazy, in between the beach trips. Usually during the school year, I work anywhere from 30 I would say average of 30 hours a week while my kids are in school. Jillian: [00:38:24] OK. And you have a baby, right? Nicole: [00:38:27] Yeah. She'll be 6 months old. She's like the best baby ever. So it's made the transition very easy. She sleeps really well. She eats really well. So she's just a little angel baby, so she hasn't added too much dynamic to the group. So that's a good thing. Jillian: [00:38:47] That is terrific. Now do you have a team like do you have these people helping you? Nicole: [00:38:54] So I have a freelancer who helps me with video work, and formatting for my content, and then I have my husband. And it's just the two of us right now. Nicole: [00:39:05] But it's a really big deal to have someone working with you full time. So while we don't have a team I don't want to discount that. Nicole: [00:39:13] Because I know a lot of people are like, How does she do it by her by herself. But really I have someone working like 30 to 40 hours with me who's my right hand man, who I don't have to manage, who I don't have to explain things to in detail. So that is my team and it's basically like having another one of me. So it is it is a lot of help. Jillian: [00:39:36] Right. And what are you experimenting with now to grow your business? Where do you see it going? Getting ready for a product launch Nicole: [00:39:49] So we are actually doing our first big three part video series in a few weeks which we have never done before. Nicole: [00:39:58] Every December I do this big planning party, where I take a really big group of people like 2000 people hopefully this year it'll be even bigger, but I think around 2000 people through planning out what their next year will be like. Nicole: [00:40:14] So I do that as like a big launch and I was doing a summit up until January, but in January I decided that my focus was going to be my membership group, and I was going all in on my membership group. Nicole: [00:40:26] So now I'm actually doing this video series called the Social Shift, which is the new way to grow your influencer and blog business that has nothing to do with counting pages or followers. Nicole: [00:40:37] So this is the first time we're doing this prerecorded video series, that is going to be really really big, which I'm really excited for,and that it's going to lead into the opening of our Blogger to Business group, the membership group. Jillian: [00:40:51] Got it. OK so you open your group one time of year? Nicole: [00:40:55] It's twice a year, and then we have a waitlist. Jillian: [00:40:58] Okay got it. And so the way that you attract people to it is you offer this, now you're going to offer a video series  and then if you like this at the end, you could join our group. Nicole: [00:41:11] Exactly. So everybody could see this video series. And I really hope that a lot of people join us, because it is a huge opportunity. Whether you join the Blogger to Business group or not, being a part of this Social Shift and the new way of doing your influencer business, is a huge opportunity for everyone. Nicole: [00:41:34] So even if you don't come join us for the Blogger to Business group, you're going to want to join us for the video series because you'll still learn what to do. You just will be doing it on your own, and that's okay too. Jillian: [00:41:47] Okay so are you having a crew come in? And is this like a big production? Nicole: [00:41:51] Oh my gosh. No. Okay so right now at this point in my in my crazy life, I love simplicity and I'm always like doing, I heard this on Amy Porterfield's podcast with Brooke Castillo, B minus work. Nicole: [00:42:07] So the video is awesome, but it was just shot in my backyard with a tripod against my white fence, which made a really fantastic backgrounds and it's super simple. My freelance video editor has edited it, but it was just me and my husband doing it with my kids coming out like nine million times. Nicole: [00:42:31] So super simple, but that's how I try and keep everything simple, because I just can't do the big production now. Jillian: [00:42:39] I love that. Again I love that expression,  done is better than perfect. Nicole: [00:42:45] Yes. Jillian: [00:42:45] It really is if you want to move your business forward and live your life, and especially if you have children, like write that mantra put it on your fridge. Nicole: [00:42:55] Yes. And you know at one point  I'm sure I will do the production thing. I did buy a teleprompter though so that's good. Jillian: [00:43:09] That's cool. Nicole: [00:43:10] But that's as big as we went for this and it's going to be perfect. I was actually going into it as Facebook Lives, but I didn't feel like it would have done the content justice so I did go to the prerecorded. Jillian: [00:43:22] And then do you run ads like on Facebook, and that kind of thing so people hear about it? Nicole: [00:43:27] Yeah. So we are big Facebook ads proponent. That was another thing when you grow your business, you have two things you can have time or you can use money. And we used money to get the majority of growth in our business. Nicole: [00:43:44] We did use affiliates, but honestly we have spent a lot of money on Facebook ads, in the past seven years and it's been a lot of learning, but it's been amazing because I can do things like just put on a Facebook ad and grow my email list consistently, rather than worrying about SEO and blogging and doing all these other things. Nicole: [00:44:06] So again simplicity and focus and Facebook ads while I'm sure Facebook ads won't always be the thing that we use in the next five years to grow our business. It's what we've leveraged in the past five years and it's been very good to us. Jillian: [00:44:22] Oh that's wonderful. Ok Nicole, if people want to reach out to you or learn more about you what is the best way? Nicole: [00:44:31] The best way is to come over to my Facebook page or my Facebook group, if you just search Nicole Culver on Facebook you will find it. Or you can get the behind the scenes, which I say behind the scenes because Facebook is my main platform for business. Instagram is my 4 fun platform. Nicole: [00:44:51] It's just Nicole Culver over there but you're not going to get much business content. I'll be honest, you're going to get my kids and my everyday life over there. Nicole: [00:44:58] So if you want the business stuff, if you want to learn how to grow your audience, and do so in a way that doesn't involve page views or your follower account, and just search Nicole Culver on Facebook and you'll get my Facebook page so come and follow me over there. Jillian: [00:45:11] And that's how then people could learn about joining your membership. Nicole: [00:45:15] Yes. Yes definitely. And that is the Social Shift. It's coming and it's going to be all on my Facebook page. So my Facebook page name is just Nicole Culver so you'll see it all over there. Jillian: [00:45:28] Well honestly this has been such a delight. Thank you so much for being on the show. Nicole: [00:45:34] Thank you for having me. It was so much fun chatting with you. How to grow your authentic Instagram followers fast and free with MiloTree Jillian: [00:36:00] Are you trying to grow your social media followers and email subscribers? Well if you’ve got two minutes I’ve got a product for you. It’s MiloTree. Jillian: [00:36:09] MiloTree is a smart pop up slider that you install on your site and it pops up and asks visitors to follow you on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube Pinterest, or subscribe to your list. Jillian: [00:36:24] It takes two minutes to install. We offer a WordPress plugin or a simple line of code and it’s Google friendly on mobile and desktop. Jillian: [00:36:34] So we know where your traffic is coming from. We show Google-friendly pop-up on desktop and a smaller Google-friendly pop up on mobile. Check it out. Sign up for MiloTree now and get your first 30 DAYS FREE!

Today, my guest is Danielle Liss, lawyer and founder of Hashtag Legal, a law firm specializing in online business.  In this interview, Danielle and I delve into what you need to know to protect yourself legally as an influencer or blogger or online entrepreneur. We talk about how to incorporate your business, how to negotiate with brands, what GDPR means, and even how to protect your goods from people who want to steal them! Danielle is a font of knowledge, and she lays everything out in layman's terms (no crazy legalise), so you will learn from and enjoy this interview! Promise! Resources: Hashtag Legal Catch My Party MiloTree Businessese The Businessese Influencer Marketing Podcast Transcript - What You Need To Know To Protect Yourself Legally With Danielle Liss [00:00:03] Welcome to The Blogger Genius Podcast brought to you by MiloTree. Here's your host, Jillian Leslie. Jillian: [00:00:10] Hello everyone. Welcome back to The Blogger Genius Podcast. Today, my guest is Danielle Liss and she is a lawyer. But the cool thing about her legal practice is she is a partner at a company called Hashtag Legal, and it is a law firm focused on the needs of influencers and online business owners, like bloggers. Jillian: [00:00:36] I had seen Danielle speak at a conference a couple of years ago and she was so helpful at breaking it down, what people need to know who are starting online businesses. So welcome to the show, Danielle. Danielle: [00:00:50] Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Jillian: [00:00:53] So we were just talking just before I said, oh my gosh, we have to record this, about how the legal stuff for blogging and online business can give people headaches. It's the last thing you want to think about. And you were just talking about how yes, your clients tend to be creative. Danielle: [00:01:15] Yes. I think that what happens is oftentimes we go into blogging because it fills this creative aspect of our personality, whether you are a maker, a photographer, someone who likes to create with your words, whatever the case might be that is often why many people get into blogging. Danielle: [00:01:36] I think it's a smaller percentage of people who look at this and say this is a business opportunity. I'm going to go into this with my startup budget, hire all the right people who can handle the creative stuff, and I'm just going to run the backend. Jillian: [00:01:48] In fact, I will tell you that now I think this is probably close to episode 40 that I've done, and almost everybody that I interview, who is a blogger, says that exact same thing, which is I started this as a side project or hobby or something, and only got it turned into a business. Jillian: [00:02:06] I've only interviewed one blogger who from the get go, said this is a business. I'm going to hire people to help me. I know what I need to do. I'm going to invest my own money in this. So I think you are absolutely right. Danielle: [00:02:21] Unfortunately I think, you know I shouldn't say, unfortunately I don't think that it is a bad thing. I can tell you I started blogging, let's just say a long long time ago, and I don't really write anything anymore. But I did it as a creative outlet when I was in law school. I needed somewhere to tell stories. Danielle: [00:02:40] And so it started that way for me, and I'm somebody who likes the fine print. Like I like that aspect of my business. But I can tell you that the thing that I hate the most is taxes and accounting. Danielle: [00:02:53] So I think there's certain back end pieces to business management that we just find a little daunting. And unfortunately what tends to happen is if it seems a little overwhelming, we ignore it. Jillian: [00:03:04] Yes, because you know what. I think because being a blogger or an influencer, there are so many things to do, that you'd rather be on Instagram or you'd rather be editing your photos or whatever, and you leave that till later. Danielle: [00:03:18] And unfortunately what happens then is instead of being proactive and kind of taking the steps that you need. What often happens is you're waiting until something bad. Jillian: [00:03:29] Yes. Yes. Danielle: [00:03:30] And we always preach. Please be proactive with your legal, rather than reactive, because if you're only getting us involved when something happens, that usually means it's bad. Danielle: [00:03:41] So we don't want to see you have to come to us because someone has stolen your content, not that you can necessarily prevent that. That's not the perfect example, but if there's something that went bad with a contract and you come to us and you say, they haven't paid me, what can I do?  We say, what did your contract say? And then the answer we unfortunately hear a lot is, I didn't get a contract. Danielle: [00:04:04] So things like that, we always want to make sure that people have the tools that they need, and we try to make sure that it's broken down in a way that is a little more accessible. Danielle: [00:04:18] No one except maybe me, wants to read pages upon pages of legalese. They want to feel like they can look at things and not need a legal dictionary to get through it. And that's kind of our goal, is to make sure that any business owner, because we 100 percent believe that bloggers are business owners, that they have the tools they need to succeed. Jillian: [00:04:39] Now what would you say are the biggest legal mistakes bloggers and influencers make? What are the biggest legal mistakes bloggers and influencers make? Danielle: [00:04:45] The number one is not getting contracts, not reading contracts, and not making sure that they understand what their contract says. And I think another problem is not properly handling their business entities. I think that comes up very frequently. Danielle: [00:05:10] If they've started an LLC they kind of have it on paper but then they don't know what to do with it. So they're not following all the appropriate formalities to make sure that they are protected or they're not transferring. You know I've seen some people who will start an LLC but they're still entering their contracts as their personal name. Jillian: [00:05:26] OK. We start there. OK. I'm a blogger. I am starting my blog. I hear these terms like LLC. or S corp. What do I do? Danielle: [00:05:39] What I recommend there is talk to someone, whether it is your accountant who can give you some guidance on your taxes, or talk to a lawyer. What type of business entity should I create as a blogger? Danielle: [00:05:47] Make sure that you know the form that is best for you. When we talk about creating a business entity you can do. I could go out and start a blog tomorrow and be a business. I can be a sole proprietor, which means me and my business are the same thing. Jillian: [00:06:03] And my social security number? Danielle: [00:06:05] Correct. Or you can start a business entity so you can start a corporation or in most cases you can start an LLC, which stands for limited liability company. LLC vs. sole proprietorship as a blogger Jillian: [00:06:14] And what is the value of an LLC versus say, why can't I just do it as a sole proprietor? Danielle: [00:06:20] You are protecting yourself from personal liability. So let's say you get sued. Only the business assets become involved. If you are sued personally, anything you own can become involved. So it could be a house. It could be your savings. It could be anything any of your assets could potentially come into play. Danielle: [00:06:42] So for many people, oftentimes whether or not they create a business entity will depend on where they are in their life. For some people, if you're just kind of starting out and you're fresh out of college, and you're like, I right now have 90 thousand dollars in student loan debt it's fine, right. There's nothing to take. They may not want to set up the LLC. They may say I want to go sole proprietor and that's fine. Danielle: [00:07:04] There are usually points when you start making money that we definitely recommend, keep the business entity separate, but for somebody who is more established, has assets, things like that you may not want to take any risk whatsoever. So you're taking. You're going to file something right away. Danielle: [00:07:19] We usually tell people once you are making money, that's when it's time to start thinking about creating an entity because it is going to keep you personally protected from liability. Jillian: [00:07:30] Got it. Now we just move from California to Texas. And so we had, we have an LLC in California, and now we just started when in Texas and I think, we did it on Legal Zoom. And actually the Texas LLC was much easier than the California LLC. Jillian: [00:07:50] So you need to figure out what state you're going to make your LLC in, and then fill out the paperwork. And it's actually, at least for Texas. It was not hard at all. Danielle: [00:08:03] Most states have online filing tax. Texas is pretty good for that. California used to be completely paper. But I think that they are getting slightly easier. What we typically recommend for people is in most cases, file where you live because otherwise you may still need to register as a foreign entity doing business in another state. Danielle: [00:08:26] So if you Google where should I set up my LLC? I guarantee you you're going to get thousands of google result that how you need to set up in Delaware. Delaware has really favorable tax laws. I used to live in Delaware. I went to law school in Delaware. It's a lovely place. But for the average person who is in the blogging space, you probably don't need a Delaware LLC. Jillian: [00:08:48] And Delaware, isn't it like you want if for example, you would want to do say an S corp. Where you think your company is going to become the next Facebook, and you're going to IPO and make a zillion dollars. That's when it makes sense to be incorporated in Delaware. Danielle: [00:09:11] If you are planning to go for venture funding, then we recommend it, and we don't even just recommend an LLC, we recommend setting up a corporation in Delaware because it's often what the venture capital firms will want to see. Jillian: [00:09:23] Right. An LLC vs an S-Corp Danielle: [00:09:23] And the reason they're a corporation versus LLC is because you can issue shares of stock. So that is often one of the differentiating factors. Danielle: [00:09:33] And when we talk about an S corp, an S corp is actually a tax designation. So you can file in certain circumstances to be taxed as an S Corp even as an LLC. You can say I want to be taxed as an S Corp, because an S Corp is solely there for tax purposes it doesn't change your entity type. Danielle: [00:09:54] And for that I always recommend talk to your accountant and see if there are benefits to you filing as an S corp. Jillian: [00:09:59] Even if you've set yourself up as an LLC? Danielle: [00:10:03] Yes. Jillian: [00:10:04] Interesting. Danielle: [00:10:04] Because an LLC is not a tax entity. An LLC is solely legal. So for example, if I started a new LLC today, it's going to be taxed as a sole proprietor. If you have more than one person in your LLC ,it's going to be taxed as a partnership. It's not taxed in any other way. Danielle: [00:10:21] So you can actually say, I would like to be taxed as an S corp and it's paperwork that you have to file. So we always say, you know, check with your tax preparer or your accountant, and see if it's something that can save you save money for you on your taxes. Jillian: [00:10:37] OK. And setting up an LLC is not that expensive. Am I right? Danielle: [00:10:41] It isn't and it all depends on what your goals are. I mean there are some states where it can be more expensive. California has a steep yearly franchise tax so it's like 800 dollars a year. So it all depends on what you're doing. Danielle: [00:10:55] The actual filing fees are typically not that expensive, if you need someone to set it up for you, if you're looking at it saying I want to be completely hands off. You can definitely go to a lawyer and they'll kind of offer you different packages on how to set those up. Jillian: [00:11:10] Got it. OK. So definitely then if you have assets, protect yourself by incorporating in some form. Because again you know, your kid's college money could be at risk. Danielle: [00:11:24] We always recommend it, we always say depending on where you are, if you are making money or you're entering into contracts, or you're hiring people that's really the time to start considering it. Danielle: [00:11:34] But if you're just starting out as a hobby, to see if maybe you can make some money. It may not be something that's necessarily needed right away, but it's something to kind of keep in the back of your mind for when that monetization hits. Make sure to have a contract if you are working with a brand Jillian: [00:11:46] Got it. OK so in terms of contracts, you were saying that that is one of the places where people come to you or they don't have a contract. Jillian: [00:11:55] So for example this is for people who want to work with brands, let's say so somebody reaches out so you're a blogger, a brand reaches out to you and says, Hey will you do this sponsored post for us and share it on a variety of social channels and stuff like that. And you're really flattered because you just started like three days ago. What do you say to that brand? Danielle: [00:12:19] Great. Say, I would love for you to send over the contract for my review. Jillian: [00:12:22] OK. OK. So you're not going to work without a contract, but this is just like 500 dollars. Danielle: [00:12:29] Great, send over the contract. I usually stand firm there, if they say, oh we don't have a contract to use, get a contract template. It's really important to make sure that that's covered because you can. You can list all sorts of stuff in an email and think that you've covered everything, and you probably aren't. Danielle: [00:12:46] Because it's really important to have those terms all listed out at the onset, so that there aren't any questions later because you need to know what are you being paid, how are you being paid, when are you being paid. Is there confidentiality? Can you list them as a partner in a portfolio? What are the disclosure requirements? Can they require drafts?' What do exclusivity and ownership mean in a contract with a brand? Danielle: [00:13:08] I think two of the most important things for influencers are exclusivity and ownership. They would discuss exclusivity whether or not by signing that contract you are prohibited from working with certain other companies, and they may say that you can't work with their competitors. Danielle: [00:13:27] They may say that you can't work with anyone who has a specific type of product, whether it is, you know you can't work with a cereal company, you can't work with a granola company or they may say you can't work with anybody who is a competitor of our company. If they give you something like that, I usually say please provide me with a list of those I can and can't work with. Jillian: [00:13:49] Isn't there usually a time limit on that too? Like, for the next six months you can't. Danielle: [00:13:54] And they should make it very specific as to the time. If they say for three years, that's a really long time to buy your exclusivity and your pricing should reflect that Jillian: [00:14:04] Now I think  I have to make a confession, sometimes I get contracts we work with brands with Catch My Party. I get contracts and they are so long I skim them. Danielle: [00:14:04]  I will urge you to read them over. Danielle: [00:14:20] For some people, we do a lot of contract review for influencers, so if they get a contract, they know that they're not going to read it that closely, they'll send it to us to review. Danielle: [00:14:30] So there are definitely things that we really do want to make sure that the deliverables match exactly what you talked about with the brand, that no one is going to be surprised because of what was done. Know what's in your contract as a blogger Danielle: [00:14:45] Make sure that you're not making any guarantees regarding performance unless you know you can get something to perform a certain way. I think we never know for sure how many views something is going to get. So be cautious there, and just make sure it matches what you said and make sure you understand the terms that are in there. Danielle: [00:15:04] And after a while you start to really recognize certain things. I think that if you've looked at a number of contracts and you start to become familiar with the terminology, particularly for the ownership of the content then it starts to become familiar, and you may not need to read it super closely but you at least need to know what it says. Jillian: [00:15:25] Got it. I always check at the deliverables and check for the schedule, check for the things like who owns the content, like who owns the photos or or things like that. Jillian: [00:15:39] And I always check to make sure it is what we negotiated, like the price and and how many social shares, and things like that, and what the timetable is and I would say most of my contracts, there is not a performance piece. Like, oh you have to hit these targets. However there might be disclosure. We want you to send your Google analytics so that we can see how well the blog post performed. Like certain reports. Danielle: [00:16:10] Yup and that's something that's really important. If you're going to owe them and I think it's especially important if you are doing things like an Instagram Story and if you need to send them a screenshot at the end of that, you need to know because it's going to disappear. Danielle: [00:16:26] So you need to be able to take that screenshot at the appropriate time and save it if that is owed to the brand. So it's really important to know what are those requirements what is it that you're going to have to do to show your performance. Jillian: [00:16:39] So let's say then it says in the contract we'll pay you within 60 days. I don't know when the norm is. And guess what 60 days goes by. And I have not been paid. But it's in the contract. Now what. What to do if a brand doesn't pay you as a blogger Danielle: [00:16:52] Usually what I say is I always follow up with a friendly email first. Danielle: [00:16:59] And say hey, I haven't got my payment. What I always recommend get something that has read receipt on it. Jillian: [00:17:08] What is that? Danielle: [00:17:09] So that you can tell if they have opened up. Jillian: [00:17:12] Got it. Danielle: [00:17:13] That is going to be important because you never know if your contact is on vacation. What if they had an injury and they're out on an emergency. You want to make sure that that is actually being opened, even if you don't get an out of office response on it. Danielle: [00:17:28] If you see that they're opening it and they're still ignoring you. Yeah then usually what I will say is follow up with the phone call. Danielle: [00:17:35] Now if there's still nothing. See if there's another person that you can contact. This becomes extremely important with larger companies, because there are just more layers to go through to get paid. They may have a finance department or an accounts receivable person or just more hoops. Danielle: [00:17:52] Essentially it's not just one person who is kind of approving it cutting the check and paying you. So if that's the case and you have another contact that you can copy. By all means go to that person. Danielle: [00:18:03] Usually my last resort is to send the certified letter with signature required. It is amazing how quickly people will respond to that just because it is official. And it's a lot harder to ignore. If you had to sign for it so for sure send that. Danielle: [00:18:24] And in that email you essentially say we had a contract dated whatever the contract is dated in that contract. I was supposed to be paid by. And you'd give your date. I have not received payment. I have tried to contact you on and give a list of everything. If I am not paid by give a date, always give a date as to when you need to receive payment. Keep it reasonable. Because unfortunately. You know it might not be tomorrow. You may need to say two weeks or so if I'm not paid by that date. I will be forced to pursue other options to enforce the contract. Jillian: [00:18:59] I would say we have been at this for a long time. We've been working with brands for probably nine years and we have definitely run into situations where we haven't gotten paid. However it's always been rectified. Jillian: [00:19:13] It's always been like the accounting department didn't get it or whatever. So for me, there have been times where I've had to be on, I've had to be on top of it. But so far we haven't run into a situation where a brand is completely bailed on us. Danielle: [00:19:32] It's rare, I don't see it that frequently where I see people not get paid is often with smaller companies maybe startups. That's why I always get something in writing if they are hedging over giving you trouble over a contract or signing a contract that you provide. That's a red flag to me. Keep track of your brand payments as a blogger Jillian: [00:19:54] Yep and you know what I do. Simple simple. I keep a spreadsheet that just says this is the brand I worked with. This is how much they've paid. They say they're paying me. Have they paid me. And like as soon as that check comes in. You know I put a check mark. Jillian: [00:20:10] Very simple like I'm not even using Quickbooks or anything like that. And I just keep a record and then once a month or so, I look through it and go, Wait did I get paid for that because I will forget. Jillian: [00:20:20] Right. And then it will be end of the year, and you'll be like did my work with somebody and did I ever get paid? So that has been like my saving grace. It's just to keep a record. Danielle: [00:20:32] Exactly. Keep track. And I think that that's also a really good tip for how to keep track of exclusivity. Keep it all in one place so let's say you have a client who said you know you can't talk about breakfast cereal for three months after the time the contract expires. Danielle: [00:20:46] Just keep a spreadsheet so that you know, OK this other company came to me. I can't work with you yet but in 30 days I can. That makes it a little easier so that you can see like what is my expiration date, and what am I prohibited from talking about during a specific period of time. Jillian: [00:21:01] I think that's a great idea. Now bloggers when they first start out, one of the ways they monetize is via affiliates. And there's a lot of conflicting information about disclosing affiliate fees or affiliate links. How do you need to disclose your affiliate links as a blogger Jillian: [00:21:15] I can't even keep them straight. Like Amazon has its rules, and Pinterest has its rules, and I wonder if you could walk through what a blogger needs to know to protect themselves with affiliates and also to talk about, is there some police that comes out and says that link was not disclosed. What can happen if you don't disclose something? Danielle: [00:21:41] Sure. When it comes to how to disclose I always say there's two major things that you need to check. First of all whatever it is that you have to disclose so if this is an affiliate link you need to know what does the platform require. Danielle: [00:21:54] So make sure you know your rules for Amazon or Pinterest or wherever it is that you are doing it. And typically it will be something that you can find in their regulations. Danielle: [00:22:04] The second thing that you have to know is the FTC. So the FTC is the Federal Trade Commission. They monitor advertising and that is where the main areas of disclosure come in. So that is why you will see #ad #sponsored because the FTC has said that they are adequate disclosures. Jillian: [00:22:25] So they did? You could just say #ad #sponsored? How about #affil? Danielle: [00:22:32] Affil is not sufficient because the average person is not going to know what that means. Jillian: [00:22:36] How about #affiliate? Danielle: [00:22:38] #affiliate should be OK but the FTC is not clear on whether or not you need more, so you may need to say "This is an affiliate link if you click on this I receive a small commission." Jillian: [00:22:49] Got it. And I always say, at no charge to you. Danielle: [00:22:54] So I think that "at no charge to you" check and see if your platforms are okay with that. Because I think that Amazon makes a lot of changes and I'm not sure what they say you can and can't say. Danielle: [00:23:09] In terms of policing, it can become an issue with the FTC. I personally don't think that it is ever a good idea to run afoul of the FTC because their minimum fines, if they send you a demand it's likely going to be in the range of forty thousand dollars. Jillian: [00:23:27] What? Have you seen this? Has any one that you've worked with ever received something from the FTC that says that? Danielle: [00:23:34] Not to that extent. I think that this is a very new area for the FTC,so they put out a lot of guidance. What we have seen is warning letters and the warning letters. Danielle: [00:23:45] Like last year there was a lot of headlines and they sent out I want to say 40 letters, and they were to bigger name influencers, like I think we're talking like Kardashian level and mostly celebrities. And they said if you do this again you will be subject to a fine. Danielle: [00:24:02] And one of the recipients of letters contacted us and said I didn't know anything about this. Can you please help me you know get everything together and it was for a forty thousand dollar fine. Danielle: [00:24:15] So we strongly recommend this isn't an area to cut corners on, just disclose any of your relationships because to me like forty thousand dollars that's going to sink a small business. Jillian: [00:24:27] Oh my god yes. That's not, that's not chump change. Danielle: [00:24:31] Right yes. It's not at all. So I think to me it just makes sense to do the disclosures. Jillian: [00:24:37] And the reason for the disclosures is because if Kim Kardashian is like saying, oh my god this is the best mascara in the world and she's getting paid for it. Like somehow it feels like cheating that she's not sharing that with her audience. Danielle: [00:24:53] Right. So there is a material relationship with the reason that she's posting. So she's posting because she's getting paid, she's not posting just because she really likes something. Danielle: [00:25:05] So I think it's really important that if you are being incentivized whether it is by money or free product, to post something then there is a material relationship in the eyes of the FTC. So you need to talk about it. Danielle: [00:25:17] You can do #ad #sponsored #affiliate it doesn't have to be phrased that way though. You can work it into your story. You can say, I am working with this brand you know whomever it might be to talk more about this. This is why I partnered with this brand. Danielle: [00:25:34] The FTC has also said that for sponsored content you can say #brand name then partner but #partner isn't sufficient. Danielle: [00:25:45] But like let's say you were doing #Maybelline because we're talking about mascara, so let's say you did like #Maybellinepartner that is sufficient. Danielle: [00:25:53] I always recommend if it's a sponsored content contract, or anything with an affiliate program, check with the disclosure requirements are for that particular program because they may have something specific they're looking for but if not you can use natural language you can use those different examples that we provide. Jillian: [00:26:10] Okay that makes a lot of sense. BREAK: What a happy customer had to say about MiloTree Jillian: [00:26:13] I wanted to take a short break and read an email I got this week from a MiloTree customer. It's from Andrea Scalzo of RaisingDragons.com. So here's what she wrote. Jillian: [00:26:24] I have built a large following on Facebook and MiloTree allows me to easily and organically introduce my other social channels to all the traffic coming to my site from Facebook. Jillian: [00:26:36] It took only minutes to set up, and I immediately saw my follower count start going up on my other channels. I also love how aesthetically pleasing it is. Thank you Jillian. Danielle: [00:26:48] Well thank you, Andrea. So for everybody else if you are trying to grow your followers on Instagram and Pinterest and Facebook and YouTube and also grow your email subscribers definitely sign up for MiloTree. We offer your first 30 days free. Just head on over to MiloTree.com and now back to the show. What is GDPR and what do I need to know as a blogger? Jillian: [00:27:13] Now GDPR are which is, as you know we sell our pop-up MiloTree and it is GDPR compliant, and I don't even understand GDPR. So could you explain it very briefly for the audience and why that's important? Danielle: [00:27:35] Sure. GDPR stands for General Data Protection Regulation. It is an EU law or an EU regulation and essentially what they are doing is they want to ensure that consumers know how their data is being collected, what data is being collected, how it's being used, and to make sure that consumers are in control of that data. Jillian: [00:28:01] And can I just interrupt for one second. GDPR here though covers a wide swath, like it is not just getting somebody to understand that if they're signing up for your newsletter because you're giving out a freebie, that they're signing up for your newsletter. Danielle: [00:28:16] Right. It has like a whole host of things. It covers so many things that influencers and bloggers have on their site. And I think that the key is dive into your site see what it is that you are using on your site that collects personal information. Danielle: [00:28:35] Now this is where things get a little bit tricky because collecting personal information. It's not just a name or an email address or something along those lines. Danielle: [00:28:45] It is also a location. It is also an IP address and that IP address is used regularly in plugins. It is used in Google Analytics. You can anonymize Google Analytics to not track the IP address but it is really important to make sure that if you are collecting these things, that you are disclosing for anybody who is in the EU. Danielle: [00:29:09] So there are a lot of different plug ins that you can actually install for GDPR compliance that will help as well. Jillian: [00:29:16] Is this going to come to the United States and does it matter? Because like what is your thought. Is it going to get more restrictive? Danielle: [00:29:25] What we are seeing so far is California has passed a law. And if you're not familiar with it California is the only state that currently requires privacy policies. Danielle: [00:29:37] So everybody should have a privacy policy to comply with that because if you have any audience from California you should have a privacy policy on your site. Jillian: [00:29:47] And that means like in your terms of service? Danielle: [00:29:49] Yeah you should have your privacy policy. Now when it comes to GDPR in the U.S. we need to be compliant with GDPR in the U.S. if we have visitors who are from the EU then there's ways that you need to comply. Danielle: [00:30:04] But what we have seen is just recently and we're still kind of waiting for everything to be finalized there, was a law passed in California on data protection. I don't think it's finalized yet so we don't have all of the details. It looks like it may be comparable to GDPR. But it looks like there could also be some additional restrictions. We're kind of in a wait and see period with this. Danielle: [00:30:30] From what I understand it's supposed to be implemented by 2020. So I expect that we will be seeing a lot of activity in 2019 as things get finalized. Jillian: [00:30:41] Got it now. It's funny because at MiloTree our belief is GDPR is good. And what is your thought about it? Why GDPR is a good thing Danielle: [00:30:50] I think it's a really good thing. I think that for people in our business we kind of know what's out there. Danielle: [00:30:56] Like I understand the Facebook pixel or I understand affiliate marketing, but I can tell you right now, I have had to explain to my mom on more than one occasion why Facebook is showing an ad for something she just searched for. Jillian: [00:31:09] Oh my God, I've done the same thing with my parents. They're like somebody knows, they're following me. Danielle: [00:31:15] They're watching me they're following me. So I think it's it's important for the average consumer who may not have any idea. They think, and let's face it especially in the age of the Cambridge Analytica scandal, people are taking a quiz and have no idea what they are doing, what data they are providing. And it's really important that companies are up front about that. Danielle: [00:31:39] There was a quote that I saw GDPR, the compliance date for it was May 25th so that was everything was, let's just say in May was a little bit crazy. Danielle: [00:31:49] There was an article and it was another lawyer was being quoted, and the person said, well if consumers know what we're collecting they'll never give us the information. And the attorney was like and I just said yeah that's kind of the point. Danielle: [00:32:02] So it's really important and the main impact for you it may be how you're collecting email addresses. It may be that you need a cookie disclosure on your site. But the key is use it as an opportunity to go in take a look at your plugins, see what you're collecting, see if you still need those things. Danielle: [00:32:20] Make sure your privacy policy is updated, and then you should be good to go. I think that for many people it was an opportunity, because they said I last updated my privacy policy in 2009 and it's not quite accurate anymore. Danielle: [00:32:35] And it gave people a good opportunity to kind of take a look, and I think for a lot of people they were just deleting plugins, and they were like my site so much faster now. Jillian: [00:32:42] Oh true. And I always thought it felt a little dishonest when it would be like, hey I get this freebie by giving me your email address and I feel like the disconnect to us. Well wait a second. I just gave you like my email address. I didn't know that I was going to be put on all these lists. Danielle: [00:33:01] And I think that that's the goal is to make sure that there is more transparency. If someone is giving you their personal information about how it's being used. So I do believe it's a good thing. I think it changes the playing field a little bit. Danielle: [00:33:15] And it's it's like every time there's a system change right. Everybody kind of freaks out says I can't do this. Like I'm just going to quit I heard so many people say I'm just going to quit blogging. Danielle: [00:33:25] And you don't have to. Yes. There's a little bit of administrative time that goes into it. But for the most part I think that they are trying to be fairly straightforward and it really is to protect your audience. And I think it's a good thing for your audience to know what you're doing. Jillian: [00:33:42] Yeah. And to be trustworthy. And I will say this, which is if you are a blogger if you've done this for a little while you know the things change all the time. This is just one of those. Like just just wait because there will be more to your business you know and like algorithms change. If you're not comfortable with change don't be a blogger. Danielle: [00:34:11] I think that there's just nothing static and the reason that this bothered people I think is because it got into areas of their business that people weren't necessarily comfortable with. Danielle: [00:34:21] It got into legal, it got into the tech side. It definitely took a lot of people out of their comfort zone, and you had to deal with some areas that for many, they had completely ignored. So I get that sort of discomfort that came along with it. But overall I do think it's a very good thing. Danielle: [00:34:40] It's kind of like, do you remember all of the Facebook Raffle rules? Jillian: [00:34:44] Yes. Danielle: [00:34:45] It's kind of like that. Every time Facebook would make a change to their giveaway rules everybody would kind of freak out, then they would make the adjustment and then everything was OK. I view it somewhat similar. Danielle: [00:34:56] But this is something that's there to protect your audience, so to me, embrace it. It is coming to us. I think that we will see a lot of discussion about this next year once we start to see what's being finalized in California. Understanding copyright and intellectual property as a blogger Jillian: [00:35:12] Yes so I have I have a two part question, and this is I think, my last legal question, which is so let's say I create something like an ebook, and that would be then I guess my own intellectual property right? Jillian: [00:35:26] Let's say I make a cookbook. Do I need to protect that? Or how would I protect it? And then the B side of this question is what happens when somebody steals something of mine on the internet, like my photos or even my entire ebook? Danielle: [00:35:43] Sure. What I recommend doing is, so first let's just talk a little bit about what copyright is and what it does. So a copyright is something that protects an expression of an idea in a tangible medium and that's a little bit of legalese. Danielle: [00:35:57] So what it means is if I have created something and expressed an idea. So whether it is a song, a photo, a piece of creative copy etc. That is something that is copyrightable. Danielle: [00:36:12] When you have a copyright, there are a lot of additional rights that kind of makeup a copyright. So it has the right to produce, it has the right to sell, the right to display whatever that piece of content is. Danielle: [00:36:25] So that's why it's really important in your contracts that you know what happens to that copyright, because most of the time you're going to keep your copyright but the brand will want a license to display it. So you're giving them a right to do something from your copyright. Danielle: [00:36:39] When it comes to creating something like an ebook. The sheer act of publishing it, gives you certain common law copyright rights. So you are the owner of that content you are the copyright owner. Danielle: [00:36:52] When someone downloads that book you are essentially giving them a license to use it, and you are probably making restrictions that say this is for your personal non-commercial use only. You cannot resell this, you can't copy it you can't do X Y or Z. Danielle: [00:37:09] So I think it's really important to make sure that you have the copyright logo, and I recommend having a short statement. You know I think of it like your title page in a book. That's how people can use it if you can if it's if there's something in the speccing that works for you. How to register a copyright with the government Danielle: [00:37:26] And you can also register with the government and if you register your copyright you have additional legal rights which essentially you can sue if there is copyright infringement. Danielle: [00:37:40] So it's actually relatively simple process. You can have a lawyer handle it or you can try to file it yourself depending on your comfort level. It's kind of like LLCs some people want nothing to do with it. Some people are like yes please just handle this. Danielle: [00:37:54] So you can file for your copyright which gives you additional protections once it's registered with the Copyright Office. If someone steals your stuff, what I strongly recommend, is first reach out to the person and find out what happened. Danielle: [00:38:11] And that may be something as simple as an email or submitting a contact form that says, hey I see that you've got my pictures. Those are my copyrighted material. Please take them down. Danielle: [00:38:22] You'd be amazed at how many things get resolved on that stage because they just didn't know that they couldn't google search and right click, and save something and then put it up. So that's usually step one. Danielle: [00:38:36] Another step that you can take as if it's being hosted online. You can send a DMCA request which is essentially a takedown request to the host of the material, and you can find a lot of templates for that online. Danielle: [00:38:49] You can also if they still won't remove it. You can definitely have an attorney do a cease and desist letter. Those are unfortunately for a lot of people. They get frustrated with that process because you do have to pay to have an attorney draft it, and you might not be getting anything in return. Danielle: [00:39:07] But depending upon what they are using of your stuff, it may be worth it to you to have that done. Jillian: [00:39:14] Got it. OK so let's say I do. I'm a food blogger and four times a year, I take my recipes and create seasonal ebook cookbooks. Would you copyright those? Danielle: [00:39:28] I would just to be safe. Jillian: [00:39:30] You would? So you wouldn't just put on the title page, you know the copyright logo, and say this is for your personal use only. You cannot sell this or whatever distribute it in any way, but then you would go that extra mile and you would copyright those books. What does registering a copyright do for you as a blogger? Danielle: [00:39:47] If it's something that's going to be relatively heavily distributed I would do it. It's fifty five dollars I believe is the fee to do the copyright application. To me, if it's something that is going to be a critical part of your business, that's a fee that's worth it. Danielle: [00:40:04] If you're talking about just a blog post everyday that might not be something that you copyright and register every single one that you do. Danielle: [00:40:15] You might do it as an anthology once a year, that you copyright it to give yourself some additional protection. But if it's something that is going to be a critical part of your business, or something that you're using to make money, I think it's worth the investment to have the additional protection. So that way if something happens you know you haven't got it. Jillian: [00:40:36] Wow. OK. Because I had not thought to really do it. I didn't know it was fifty five dollars. Danielle: [00:40:42] Yeah it all depends on what the item is like. If we're talking about a just a small freebie that maybe a couple hundred people will see, it might not be something that's worth it to you, that might be something that you take your chances with. Danielle: [00:40:56] But if we're talking about something that you're potentially going to use to sell or to make money or that it's going to go into the hands of thousands, then I think it's a smart idea to to copyright it because it's it's an expense, yes but it's an expense that can give you additional protection if something happened. Jillian: [00:41:16] So like for example we create free printable on Catch My Party and we give them away, and we say you know, these are for your personal use only. I have found our free printables on Etsy being sold. Danielle: [00:41:30] Oh wow. Jillian: [00:41:31] So I have not copyrighted them, but I did then contact the Etsy seller and say please take these down. And they did. Danielle: [00:41:38] Good. Good. Jillian: [00:41:39] OK. But let's say they didn't. What would I do? Let's say if I haven't copyrighted them what else can I do, and then what if I had copyrighted them? Danielle: [00:41:50] The main difference between copywriting like let's say, somebody had one of your printables and they were making a lot of money off of it, and that Etsy store and you're just looking at that saying, that's money that should be mine right not yours. You didn't create that. Danielle: [00:42:04] So if you needed to sue them, then you need the copyright registration. So it's especially important if somebody is using your stuff commercially, and you're trying to get some of those profits back for yourself. Danielle: [00:42:14] But I think that depending on where your content is being used. So in a way, Etsy is helpful because they will typically have copyright forms so you can say this is my material. This is you know stolen essentially. And allow you to submit that. Danielle: [00:42:33] So it can depend on what your ultimate goal is. If you want to make sure that you have the ability to sue if something is stolen, then you want to register. Jillian: [00:42:41] Got it. Danielle: [00:42:41] If you are only concerned about getting it taken down, then you may not need that but the problem is if even if you can't get it taken down, you may still need to. You never know when you're going to need to take that final step. What if someone copies your designs as a blogger? Jillian: [00:42:55] Got it. And one thing that I do, is a lot of people will reach out to me especially through Catch My Party. You know they create printables or invitations or something like that, and they will say to me somebody copied my design. Jillian: [00:43:14] And maybe it's not completely, it's not a hundred percent copy, but it's probably, you can tell that they were inspired by the person's work. What would you say to that person? Danielle: [00:43:29] It depends on how much was copied and if it would be considered a derivative work, if it would be considered a copy. That can get into some hazy territory. So that's usually what I would say contact a lawyer, set up a consultation, and see just how much has been changed and whether or not you still have a claim. Jillian: [00:43:51] OK. And do you get calls like that a lot? Danielle: [00:43:54] Yes. Jillian: [00:43:54] Where people say is this too similar? Danielle: [00:43:57] Yeah we have. We've certainly dealt with that. And it really does become an analysis of how much has been copied how much has been changed. Has enough been changed. Danielle: [00:44:07] And sometimes it's really taking a look at it and balancing what the cost would be to defend it, because copyright infringement unfortunately can become costly, because it's a lot of expense for you on the legal side to get something taken down, and you may not see any money back for it. Danielle: [00:44:28] So for some people it's a matter of, do I want to spend money to get this taken down? How much is this particular item going to impact me if it stays there? Danielle: [00:44:38] But if it's on a platform like Etsy, typically they are going to give you the ability to report something as stolen. It can be more tricky if somebody is just putting it on their website, or in their own shop, or something like that, where there's not that formal mechanism. Jillian: [00:44:54] Got it. Danielle, I have been taking a ton of notes here. I need to talk to my accountant, and I need to think about copywriting my stuff. So thank you so much. Jillian: [00:45:08] So can you share how people can reach out to you if they've got legal issues or questions how they can find you. All of that. Danielle: [00:45:18] Of course. If you have something you need assistance from a lawyer with then you can reach us at HashtagLegal.com. We also have forms and templates like privacy policies and contracts things like that. Danielle: [00:45:34] And then if you need legal templates or forms we have Businessese.com and you can also always get more information from us on our podcast. The Business Influencer Marketing Podcast. Jillian: [00:45:48] Awesome. Danielle thank you so much for being on the show. Danielle: [00:45:51] Thank you. How to grow your authentic Instagram followers fast and free with MiloTree Jillian: [00:36:00] Are you trying to grow your social media followers and email subscribers? Well if you’ve got two minutes I’ve got a product for you. It’s MiloTree. Jillian: [00:36:09] MiloTree is a smart pop up slider that you install on your site and it pops up and asks visitors to follow you on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube Pinterest, or subscribe to your list. Jillian: [00:36:24] It takes two minutes to install. We offer a WordPress plugin or a simple line of code and it’s Google friendly on mobile and desktop. Jillian: [00:36:34] So we know where your traffic is coming from. We show Google-friendly pop-up on desktop and a smaller Google-friendly pop up on mobile. Check it out. Sign up for MiloTree now and get your first 30 DAYS FREE!

This week my guest is Stephanie Parker from the popular food blog, Plain Chicken. In this episode we talk about how Stephanie started Plain Chicken as a hobby, and how she turned it into a super successful business. We delve into how she figured out how to make a family income as a food blogger, where she and her husband could quit their corporate jobs, travel, and become satisfied, creative entrepreneurs. We also discuss her blogging schedule, what to do when you feel blogger burnout, and her adorable cats! Resources: Plain Chicken MiloTree Catch My Party ConvertKit * May contain affiliate links. If you click and make a purchase, I might receive a small commission at no cost to you. Transcript: How to Make a Family Income as a Food Blogger with Stephanie Parker Jillian: [00:03:37] Hello, everyone. Welcome back to The Blogger Genius Podcast. Today my guest is Stephanie Parker and she's a food blogger, and she has this really cool food blog called Plain Chicken. Jillian: [00:03:50] What's really interesting about Stephanie's story is that she started this as a hobby in 2007, and then she grew her blog big enough so that not only could she quit her job her corporate job, but her husband could quit his job. And together they run Plain Chicken. So welcome to the show, Stephanie. Stephanie: [00:04:10] Thank you so much. Jillian: [00:04:11] So I have been an admirer of you. I found you because you were an early user of MiloTree. I saw your blog and I said, oh my god, she's doing something really beautiful. And I loved the name of your blog, Plain Chicken. Stephanie: [00:04:28] Thank you. Jillian: [00:04:29] So can you tell the story of how you started and what the inspiration was for your food blog. Stephanie: [00:04:37] So I started Plain Chicken because I would take food to work. And months later, or weeks later, people would come to me and say, hey a few weeks ago you brought some dish to work. Can I get the recipe? Stephanie: [00:04:52] And I didn't have the recipe because it was something I'd found online, or some cookbook, and I make things and then just move on to the next thing. So I thought well, why don't I start a blog just for recipes storage. Jillian: [00:05:05] Now wait, at work. Were people tasting the food or it just looked really good? Stephanie: [00:05:12] Yes. I would just bring food that I cooked at home, cooked up I always enjoyed cooking. So I would make a dessert. And there's only two of us in our house, so I would take the leftovers to work. Jillian: [00:05:22] Got it. Stephanie: [00:05:23] And people would be eating something that I had made, and they would come back later and want the recipe for it. I didn't have it, or I'd have to go and search for it because I couldn't remember what it was and where I got the recipe from. Stephanie: [00:05:36] So I just started I just thought, why don't I make a blog and just keep track of all the recipes that I'm making there. So that's kind of what I started. And so I just went on blogger.com and got a free web site. Jillian: [00:05:52] And this is in 2007? How to come up with a name for your food blog Stephanie: [00:05:56] In 2007. And I was sitting there, and I'm trying to figure out what to call it. So I'm like, I don't know what should I call this so I just started brainstorming names and I came up with Plain Chicken. Stephanie: [00:06:09] Because when I was growing up I was a very picky eater. I really only liked plain food. And so when we would go on vacation you know you're, sitting at the table and your parents are there and I had my little brother and my dad would say, hey so what's everybody going to get to eat? Stephanie: [00:06:26] And before I could even see it's my little brother would say plain chicken. And it was true. I just liked chicken on bread or just plain chicken. So I thought well that's a funny kind of name I'll just name it plain chicken. Stephanie: [00:06:40] And so it just started that way. And then as Pinterest came along, that's when my blog exploded. I started when Pinterest was still in the invitation stage. So I went from getting you know just a 100,000 views a month to over 100,000 views a day. Jillian: [00:07:02] Oh my gosh. Wow that's incredible. OK so wait. First of all when you were coming up with Plain Chicken, did you think to yourself, oh my god people are going to think they're only playing chicken recipes? Stephanie: [00:07:16] No because I never thought that I would do this as a job. Jillian: [00:07:21] So now knowing that, would you have named your blog Plain Chicken? If you were starting a food blog today. Stephanie: [00:07:26] Yeah. I would. I mean people think that it's chicken. But once you're on the site. Yes I like to say it's all right to say it's anything but plain chicken. But it's everything. And I think once you're on the site, and like if you're on Pinterest, and you're seeing my recipes you know it's Plain Chicken, but you see it's a steak. Jillian: [00:07:48] I have to be honest first of all, my daughter is the pickiest eater on the planet. I totally relate to the idea of plain chicken. Because we ordered that at a lot of restaurants. So I like that it's playful. Jillian: [00:08:02] We obsess about naming our blogs, and we don't want to lock ourselves in with our name, that kind of thing. I like that there is something kind of like winking at the camera a little bit. Stephanie: [00:08:17] Right. And I started it so early before people were blogging basically. I didn't worry about all those things. I just went with what I liked, what I thought was fun. And so there wasn't, there wasn't a ton of analytical thought behind it sounded fun. Jillian: [00:08:38] Now did you teach yourself to take photographs? Teaching yourself photography when you're a food blogger Stephanie: [00:08:42] I did. Jillian: [00:08:42] And how was it? Stephanie: [00:08:43] It's a learning process, obviously. When I started it, you know just as recipes storage and then I saw there were food blogs out there. So like some of the first ones I saw were the Pioneer Woman and Jenny at Picky Palette. I followed her from her beginnings as well and Bakerella. Stephanie: [00:09:03] So you see their photographs and their photographs from when I was looking at them till they are now have also improved greatly. Stephanie: [00:09:11] It was just like, oh here's this whole world. And so I need to make recipes and then take pictures and then it got to be where I need to make them better. I need to figure out how to get the lighting or I get the set up right. Stephanie: [00:09:25] And it just became something as I started blogging and it started getting larger. That was something that I started focusing on and then once I started doing it, I just really enjoyed it. And so it just became like a challenging hobby. Stephanie: [00:09:41] And with Pinterest you can see a lot of ways people are photographing things and you can go Oh well that's an interesting angle. Maybe I should do something similar to that. Or you know you brainstorm from seeing other people's photos. Stephanie: [00:09:59] You don't copy them because you're not making the same recipe, but you go overhead shot. OK. Or super close up shot. Or spoon shot. Or a drizzle photo. And you see what people like. And it's just kind of experimenting as well. Stephanie: [00:10:17] Like with mine. I know that like the pour shot might do better than a far out shot, or the zoom shot is what people really like, and that's what really draws them in. So you just kind of experiment and see what your audience likes and then you kind of focus on that. Stephanie: [00:10:32] And then I also worked on you know upgrading my camera. Jillian: [00:10:38] And the macro lens. When I discovered a macro lens doing food, my life changed. Stephanie: [00:10:44] Yes I shoot a lot with the 100 millimeter lens. Because it gets me the close up shot that I want, and then also have a 24-70 lens like my everyday lens for the larger shots that I want to get more of the food in. And it has the ability to get a smaller aperture for it if I want the blurry beautiful, you know the dreamy background. Stephanie: [00:11:09] But with food I try not to pick like one single focal point because then it kind of gets too blurry then like the dish itself is blurry. Stephanie: [00:11:27] Because you can sometimes, if you focus too much in one spot, like on the corner then everything else is blurry and people can't see the food. So it's just a give and take. When a food blog becomes a business Jillian: [00:11:39] At what point then did you start to think to yourself, oh this could be a business? Stephanie: [00:11:44] So I was at an Auburn football tailgate and I had a friend that I met on the internet who emailed me, and she's like, hey we're going to be in Auburn, can we come bye the tailgate? Sure. Stephanie: [00:11:58] So she's a blogger and I had seen some of her recipes, and we were talking at the tailgate, we had never met and I was like, so what do you do besides the blog? She goes, I only do the blog. I'm like, excuse me? Stephanie: [00:12:11] She said yeah, I only do the blog. I'm like well, and this is so rude, but I was like how much money do you make? Not meaning tell me how much money you make, but I mean like how much money can you make doing this? Stephanie: [00:12:21] And she's like well I make as much money as my husband did when he had his first job out of college. I'm like, are you kidding me. Jillian: [00:12:28] Can you share how much she said she made? Stephanie: [00:12:31] She didn't tell me she just told me she made as much as her husband did when he graduated college. And so I was like, that's insane. Like so how do you do that? And so she started telling me there's ad networks and all those things. Using ad networks as a food blogger Stephanie: [00:12:44] So I started being like, well I've got to figure this out. I don't even remember the first ad network I was in because it was so long ago. So I started, I got an ad network and I started making a little bit of money, and then I got into at the time BlogHer and my first month on BlogHer, I made three times as much money as I made being a corporate controller. Jillian: [00:13:13] No way. Stephanie: [00:13:14] Yes. I hated my job because it changed and I just hated it. And I thought to myself, why am I sitting here, making myself miserable when I could be making money just doing the blog. So after a couple of months of being with BlogHer I was able to I quit, and then a year later my husband quit his job. Stephanie: [00:13:38] Because we were making enough money that we didn't need his corporate income. And that way he could help me do things with the blog, and then I traveled, and we wanted him to travel with me and he didn't have enough vacation to take a week off every month to go somewhere. What's it like working with your husband on your food blog? Jillian: [00:14:00] So what was that like when he first came home, because that's always like the blogger dream is I start my blog, it's successful. My husband quits his job and he works with me. How is that? What was that like when he did that? Which I was reading your bio, so in 2013, he quit his job so you guys have been together working for five years. What's that like? Stephanie: [00:14:27] For us, it's easy. It is hard being with somebody 24/7. Because we're in the house together all day together. So we just kind of have our separate areas. I have an office that I edit photos and write on the blog, do social media and all those things from. Stephanie: [00:14:48] And then his role is not as much with the actual on the computer part, He cleans the kitchen, he loads and unloads the dishwasher, which is sometimes two or three times a day depending on the day. He does the grocery shopping, he runs to the grocery store if I've forgotten something. He will call people to collect money if somebody is late paying, which is always nice. Stephanie: [00:15:16] He helps me brainstorm ideas. He'll look at photos if I have two or three that I'm trying to pick from. I get his opinion on which one I should use. Before we had Instagram scheduling, he would get the reminder and post the photo for me if I was traveling. Stephanie: [00:15:38] And then just you know anything I need, like if I'm traveling, like I went to Iowa this past weekend and I live in Birmingham, Alabama. But I wanted to fly out of Atlanta because it was a direct flight, and so he drove me the two and a half hours to Atlanta to the airport. Stephanie: [00:15:54] And then he picked me up on Sunday. If he were working he wouldn't have been able to take off on Friday to take me to Atlanta and then come pick me up. It would just be you know, it's just easier to have him as my partner to just do the odds and end things. Stephanie: [00:16:11] I do all the recipes and photographing, he holds the light for me when I'm photographing. He'll hold the spoon or he'll do the syrup pouring over something, so he does all those kinds of things. Jillian: [00:16:25] Got it. That's funny so my partner in life and Catch My Party and MiloTree is my husband, David ,and he's the technologist so he builds everything and he does all the all the stuff that I don't understand. Jillian: [00:16:39] But he's also my hand model. I'll be like make sure your nails look good because you're the one holding the spoon. Stephanie: [00:16:46] Exactly. Jillian: [00:16:47] Which is really funny. I don't think he ever thought of himself as a hand model. And he does not want to be on camera, so I'm like you have to take a photo, like just turn around and I'll kind of get over it over the shoulder shot. Stephanie: [00:16:58] Yes yes. Same with my husband. Jillian: [00:17:01] So it's very funny that like you know, he'll be building some big technological thing and I'll be like come in here, I need you. Hold the spoon. Take a bite. How many hours a week do you work on your food blog? Jillian: [00:17:16] How many hours a week are you working on your blog? Stephanie: [00:17:20] Well I work every day. Jillian: [00:17:24] Including Saturday and Sunday? Stephanie: [00:17:25] Including Saturday and Sunday. Sunday is my biggest day just because that's the biggest traffic day. I post a weekly menu on Sunday. So I pin all of those recipes from Sunday into a weekly menu board on Pinterest. Stephanie: [00:17:42] So I get up, I make sure all those pins are going out. I make sure that everybody got their email, that there wasn't any glitch because that's the day everybody's favorite email is Sunday for the menu. Stephanie: [00:17:55] And then I go through and I take those posts that are scheduled on the menu on Sunday. And that's what I share on my Facebook page during the week. Jillian: [00:18:08] So every week you're creating a menu? And then you create the recipes for the menu? Creating a weekly menu as a food blogger Stephanie: [00:18:16] They're just my recipes from the from the blog. Jillian: [00:18:20] So these are past recipes? Stephanie: [00:18:23] Correct. So it's a way to get content back out in front of various people again. So it may be something that they've made, but it just comes to the forefront of their mind again. Stephanie: [00:18:34] Or it could be a new person to Plain Chicken, and they've only been around for a couple of weeks. So they've never seen any of these recipes. So it's just a way for people to think about these recipes because I give a main dish and a side and then I share one dessert at the end. Jillian: [00:18:53] This is in a newsletter? Stephanie: [00:18:55] No I do a blog post. [00:18:57] This is a blog post. Ok so this is your Sunday blog post. Stephanie: [00:19:00] Yes. So on Sunday I spent a lot of time making sure all those all that content gets shared to Pinterest. Answer anybody's questions because people have questions when they get it. And then just scheduling those out. That's what I'm going to reshare on my Facebook page for the week. Jillian: [00:19:23] Got it. I love that way of repurposing your content. I love that you found a different way  to package your stuff that makes it relevant for people. Stephanie: [00:19:34] And it was when my blog started getting popular. My dad was like you need to republish some of these recipes you have because they're really good and nobody's seen them. And I thought well, instead of doing individual post, why don't I just do a menu. Stephanie: [00:19:49] It just kind of went from there, I thought well everybody is getting ready for the week on Sunday night. So maybe they'll make one or two of the recipes but it's something that they're like oh this is good I could make this. We could have this Wednesday night. Jillian: [00:20:06] In a menu, give me an example of the three recipes that you feature. Stephanie: [00:20:11] All right let's just pull up Sunday. Jillian: [00:20:15] OK let's do it. Stephanie: [00:20:17] I do seven say I have seven recipes. I do one for every day of the week. Jillian: [00:20:22] Oh my gosh. Stephanie: [00:20:23] The one for this week was a spicy barbecue ranch grilled chicken with a side of Parmesan Pudding. Jillian: [00:20:35] Are you going back to those blog posts and updating those blog posts and republishing the blog posts? Stephanie: [00:20:42] No it is a individual blog post, I have a photo and when you click the photo, it links to the original blog post and then right underneath it says what it is like, spicy barbecue ranch grilled chicken. And you click on that. It takes you to the blog post and then I have a picture of the pin it button. If you click that then it takes you straight to Pinterest so that you can pin my original pin. Jillian: [00:21:11] I love that idea. Okay so Sunday let's go back. Sunday is your busiest day. Stephanie: [00:21:15] Yes. And then I also cook every day. So we may all figure out what we're having for lunch, and that's a blog post for later, or if I don't have like a main dish, if we're gonna like something on the grill and make an a side or if it's something I need to make a dessert for. That's what we do. Jillian: [00:21:41] Cook and create blog posts every day? How to batch your recipe content as a food blogger Stephanie: [00:21:44] Yes. So kind of a batch. I do my blog in batches, so like right now it's July 31st, and I'm cooking for December. So I already have August and September. I have all of the recipes made, photographed all the collages made for Pinterest. The blog post written and scheduled to Facebook and Pinterest. Stephanie: [00:22:12] So right now I'm making the collages for all of October, and so by the end of the week, I'll have almost all of October written and scheduled, and then November after I finish that this week. Stephanie: [00:22:28] My goal is by Sunday to have everything done. So Monday I'll start editing all of the November photos, and while I'm doing all this, I cook one thing a day. Jillian: [00:22:41] OK so let's let's break this down. Every day you are making one recipe and you are photographing it. Stephanie: [00:22:50] Yes. Jillian: [00:22:52] So that is seven recipes a week or five? Stephanie: [00:22:56] I work seven days. We don't have kids so there is no weekend. Jillian: [00:23:02] Got it. So you are making seven recipes a week. Are you pushing out one blog post with a new recipe everyday? Stephanie: [00:23:12] I post seven days a week but I only have four recipes a week. I post recipes on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. Stephanie: [00:23:21] Saturday is a travel post or if I haven't been anywhere, I'll do a roundup post of like "Top 12 pasta salads." And you know just whatever's relevant. Or like right now, back to school recipes. Stephanie: [00:23:36] And then Sunday is the menu, and Monday is Meow Monday. And those are photographs of my cats. How to create unexpected content as a food blogger Jillian: [00:23:42] That whole post is photographs of your cats? Stephanie: [00:23:45] Yes, we have we now have four cats. So it's one photo of each cat. And then I have sponsored posts for me on Monday, so if there's a sponsored post, I'll post pictures of the cats and the sponsored content whether it's food, cat litter, or whatever. I'll do that below and then incorporate it into post. Stephanie: [00:24:05] But I just send out pictures. And right now I'm sending out updates because we just adopted a stray cat a month and a half ago, so everybody wants to know how he's fitting in. Jillian: [00:24:14] So you're monetizing via ads and sponsored posts. So brands will come reach out to you and say, hey can you use my tomato sauce in a recipe? Stephanie: [00:24:29] Correct. Jillian: [00:24:29] And then you do those posts. But you only post those on Mondays? Stephanie: [00:24:36] Any sponsored post for food, I will do it Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday or Saturday. I don't post anything on Sunday or Monday because I only want one post a day. And people who are followers of my blog know, Sunday is the menu, Mondays the cats and then recipes are the other. Jillian: [00:24:57] Oh I love that. As soon as we get off the phone I'm going to go check that out because I didn't realize that. Explain to me the relationship you have with your audience through your cats. Stephanie: [00:25:14] So I just started Meow Monday because on my phone, my camera I just had pictures of food and cats and I'm like I need to do something with these cats, and so I'm an alliteration person, so I thought Meow Monday. What a great idea. I'll just start posting pictures of the cats on Mondays. Stephanie: [00:25:29] And then it just kind of started morphing into a weekly thing and now people will comment on the blog. They'll email me pictures of their cats. Yes they'll send me pictures, they'll ask me questions they want to know. Stephanie: [00:25:46] Like this week, I just got back late Sunday night from a sponsored trip, and I didn't put the update about our new cat in the post. Somebody sent me an email like what, no Nacho Man update this week? That was my favorite part of Meow Mondays right now. It's like, oh my gosh I'm so sorry. Stephanie: [00:26:05] So I emailed her back an update and then I put it back on the blog because I knew other people would be sad, and so it's like I have an obligation. I feel like I need to help these people are like and I get e-mails or comments saying Meow Monday is the only good thing about Monday. Jillian: [00:26:20] Wow. You know it's funny. That's great. Stephanie: [00:26:23] People love cats and I also get negative comments, but I'm like you know you just ignore those people. If you don't want to see the cats, it's not a law that you have to come every Monday and look at Meow Monday. You know, it's a choice. Jillian: [00:26:42] So if you were to add up the hours you work on your blog every week what would you say? Stephanie: [00:26:48] I probably work at least 80 hours a week. My whole life is Plain Chicken because everything I do. We go to a restaurant, I'm going to order something I know looks good and I'm going to put it on Instagram. Or if we go out of town, I'll do a travel post about it. Stephanie: [00:27:12] So we like to go to Las Vegas and sometimes we go twice a year. So I find new restaurants. Because I want new content. If I were to just go to Las Vegas in the same places it wouldn't be a new post, I won't be able to write it off. Everybody knows that when they order, they save it and I take pictures of everybody's meal. Stephanie: [00:27:52] So it's something that I do as you know, is conscious and I consider that working, because if I wasn't going to post that on my blog, we'd just eat it and I'd just order a plain chicken sandwich and be done with it, but instead I get something different because I want to make sure that it's something that is good for the blog. Stephanie: [00:28:16] And like I'm not a big sweets eater, but I know that's what does well on Instagram. So we'll go and get cookies or crazy ice cream or crazy whatever just to have that for the blog. Jillian: [00:28:27] Now here's a question Have you ever had to deal with burnout? Dealing with burnout as a food blogger Stephanie: [00:28:34] Yes. Jillian: [00:28:35] And talk about that, because when I hear what you're doing and the consistency of it, I am so impressed and I think to mysel.f oh my God if this were me. I'd probably experience burnout. Stephanie: [00:28:49] Some days it gets hard just because of being inundated with social media. And it might be a day where just everybody's complaining about something. But I work so far ahead that I have the luxury of saying, I'm going to go get my nails done and I'm going to come back tomorrow. I'm going to turn off my laptop at 5:00, and I'm going to just go watch TV for the rest of the night. Stephanie: [00:29:17] Because I work ahead and that's why I like to work ahead, because if I want to go get my hair done and then go to the you know stop at Pottery Barn on the way back, I can because I have enough content that I can take that day off or and I have enough time, but I could just say, hey let's go to Atlanta for the weekend so that I can clear my head. Stephanie: [00:29:44] It's really just about taking a step back. Usually just a day, saying I just need to get out do something fun and you know come back tomorrow. Jillian: [00:29:55] Got it. Got it. I mean I agree. I have to do that as well. The nice thing about being your own boss is you get to do that. I've learned though you're also the one who's up at 2:00 in the morning going, oh my god this is all on us. I can't phone it in. Stephanie: [00:30:15] Correct. That is the scariest part. That was the scariest part about walking away from corporate, was you have a guaranteed salary and you know it's going to be there, and to walk away and to say, I'm doing this on my own is super scary because you're a blogger and a business person and an entrepreneur. You know that you don't get fifteen thousand dollars every month. Jillian: [00:30:46] You have to work your tail off for that. Stephanie: [00:30:49] Right. And you might get $4,000 one month and you might get $5,000 and then you have a good month and you get $10,000. But it's not like it's a steady consistent paycheck. Jillian: [00:30:58] You're totally right. Stephanie: [00:31:00] It's like your working on commission completely. So you don't know what it's going to be. Jillian: [00:31:05] You were an accountant? Stephanie: [00:31:09] Yes. Tools to stay organized as a food blogger Jillian: [00:31:09] So I take it you are very organized? Can you give tips on how you are able to be as organized as you are. What tools do you use? Are you a spreadsheet person? Stephanie: [00:31:24] I am so I've always been super organized in my work. I'm a super planner. So like I already know my trips I'm taking the rest of the year. I have a ballpark for where we're going to go next year. So I have a spreadsheet that I use for my blog calendar. Stephanie: [00:31:45] I have Google Drive so I can see it everywhere. And I just have it scheduled. Also I will, say I'm working on November or whatever, so I'll just go and I'll be like okay what recipes do I want to make, and I'll just start jotting down ideas on each day of the week that I post a food recipe. Stephanie: [00:32:04] So I just go through and so I may have for November, I need to think about Thanksgiving you know sweet potatoes. Let me think about carrots and then I'll just start thinking about what I want to make, and the time of the month that is and I'll just drop it in the spreadsheet and then that's what I cook. Stephanie: [00:32:20] After I look at the menu and I feel like this is a really good menu. This is a really good assortment of recipes main dishes, side dishes, breads, dessert. This is what I'm going with. Stephanie: [00:32:34] Then I just go on WalMart.com order my groceries. My husband goes and picks them up from the pickup thing, and that's what we just start working our way down the list. Stephanie: [00:32:45] So I'll just start, you know, we're going to make these five recipes this week. Plus you know I've got these two desserts. So that's what we just we just kind of work through it. Jillian: [00:32:58] And then you've got your files of photos and you've got your systems for collages and those kinds of things? Stephanie: [00:33:04] Yes. So I will cook everything for a month, and then after I've cooked the month, then after when I'm ready to start, once I've finished the previous month scheduling, I'll just start. Stephanie: [00:33:14] Like right now finishing October. So I'm in the middle of making all the collages. I make a lot of different collages for Pinterest as well. Stephanie: [00:33:21] You want people to have a choice what they're pinning. So any image that I have, I will do a separate collage with like you know the words on the top, so that it stands out and I also do a zoom photo so I'll do all of those. Stephanie: [00:33:41] And then once I have all those done, I'll load them into the blog and then I start writing the what I call the "mmm this is good" part. The part that says like, you need to make it. Stephanie: [00:33:54] These are the tips and nobody reads it because they know because they always email me the questions that I've answered them. And then my recipe. And make sure that it's formatted and then I schedule it to Facebook and Pinterest, and then I hit publish and I'm on to the next list and I just work my way down. Stephanie: [00:34:13] So since I post four recipes a week, I try to write and schedule four posts a day, when I'm in my writing mode. So it's like one week I can get it all done. It's just being disciplined. Jillian: [00:34:29] I think I am organized but, my friend, you blow me out of the water. I look like the biggest slob in comparison to you. That is impressive. Jillian: [00:34:38] So in terms of social media I take it Pinterest drives a ton of your traffic. Stephanie: [00:34:42] It does. It really does. That's what I focus on. Jillian: [00:34:45] OK. That's what you focus on. So are you getting Google search traffic? Stephanie: [00:34:51] OK. I have a lot of direct traffic as well. I have a large email list. I have 200,000 people. So they come direct from there. Jillian: [00:35:01] And how often are you sending newsletters? Sending out your blog posts Stephanie: [00:35:05] I don't ever send a newsletter. I only have my RSS feed. Jillian: [00:35:10] Can you explain what that is? Sending out an RSS newsletter to your email list as a food blogger Stephanie: [00:35:12] So every time I post, my blog makes a feed it creates a new post in your RSS feed. So I have my email service set up so every time it notices a post in my feed, it will automatically send an email out to all my email subscribers and I have my email list segmented into three categories cat, food, and travel. Stephanie: [00:35:45] So you initially get all three but if you unsubscribe on Mondays you'll never see another cat, but you'll still get the recipes and the travel guide, and don't want the travel you can unsubscribe to that and just get cat recipes. There are 3 individual feeds for each subscriber. Stephanie: [00:36:04] I didn't want people to if they want the recipes that don't want cats. I didn't want them to not get the recipes. Jillian: [00:36:11] So what email service do you use for this? Stephanie: [00:36:14] I use ConvertKit. I have looked at other ones because I have a large list and I send out every day emails. Providers have limits on how much you can send like MailChimp they charge you per email. It's so astronomical for what I would be sending out. But with ConvertKit I get unlimited emails. Stephanie: [00:36:41] I know people are using MailerLite, but I've talked with them several times that they automatically create an email for your RSS feed, but I would manually have to go in every day and hit send. For me, that's a deal breaker. Stephanie: [00:36:56] Just because I'm going to be in Italy next month. Their time change is like six or eight hours. I can't wake up every morning, figure out what time is to send that email. It has to be automatic. Jillian: [00:37:11] People feel mixed about the RSS feed, meaning some people feel like it's not personal enough because it's just the blog post. But I have thought I believe that for food bloggers who are constantly creating new recipes where people want new recipes, that that's a really good strategy without having to then construct newsletters all the time. Stephanie: [00:37:36] Right. I don't think people care about me at all. Jillian: [00:37:39] Right. Well they care about your cats. Stephanie: [00:37:43] They care about the cats, they care about the free recipes. That's what they want. I mean I give them some personalization on travel post and all the cats, but I just think as a whole, nobody even really understands that Stephanie is behind Plain Chicken, like I have gone to a friend's house and she had like at a party, and she introduced me "she's Plain Chicken." And they're like, what? Stephanie: [00:38:14] It's like I follow Plain Chicken on Pinterest. I love all their recipes but I didn't realize you were a real person. So that's kind of you know, and I'm on Pinterest which is what everybody knows me for, being on Pinterest so they just know Plain Chicken. Stephanie: [00:38:32] I don't have any concept that Stephanie is sitting at her desk in her shorts a t-shirt everyday doing this for them. They just want to come and get the free recipe. So personalization, I get it, I just think that bloggers sometimes put too much thought into what they're doing. Stephanie: [00:38:56] I don't want Pottery Barn to email me and tell me what's what's going on in their life. I want Pottery Barn to send me a coupon code for free shipping. Viewing yourself as a brand as a food blogger Stephanie: [00:39:06] Yeah I mean Williams-Sonoma sent me the email that tells me with forty nine dollars I get free shipping. I don't care what you're doing in your corporate office suite, Williams-Sonoma, and that's kind of how I view myself as a brand, not as a person. Jillian: [00:39:18] Yep. It's funny. I think that there are different categories of bloggers, so Catch My Party we have a blog. We have a lot of user generated content. Nobody cares. I see this all the time, nobody cares about me or my life, nobody cares about me unless I can provide value. Jillian: [00:39:37] I'll go somewhere, like to a friend's house or another mom will be talking and somebody will say do you know, she's behind Catch My party and they're like what? I use that to plan parties. Jillian: [00:39:48] I'm like yeah that's our site and it's like no concept no concept of kind of what we do or anything. And sometimes somebody will say you know, she's a blogger like I'm this cute mom blogger who does this as a hobby, and I'm like no this is our business. Stephanie: [00:40:05] I do think "blogger" has a negative connotation to it. Jillian: [00:40:08] It has a cute connotation. Stephanie: [00:40:12] So if I tell people I'm a blogger they're like awww. And it's like whatever you, if you saw my bank account you'd be like now how do I start blogging? Jillian: [00:40:24] Totally. Absolutely. So funny but I think that again, I once went to a dinner and there were a ton of these style bloggers and they were like in their 20s and they were moving in with their fiances, and decorating their apartments, and their followers loved every little detail of their lives. Jillian: [00:40:49] It was eye opening because I realized different bloggers have different audiences and the audiences want different things. Your audience wants a recipe period. Stephanie: [00:40:57] They just want the recipe. Jillian: [00:40:58] Yeah. And mine want party ideas. So it's interesting to understand that, and to not take it personally when you recognize that for some people like you and me, our audiences don't care about us and that's OK. Stephanie: [00:41:12] Right and I know they don't care because they don't read the words I'm writing at the top of the recipe. They only go to the recipe because they asked questions that I have specifically answered right up in the top right before they got to the recipe. So I know they don't read it. Recommendations to a new food blogger to grow their business Jillian: [00:41:28] So if I were a food blogger and I wanted to grow something like Plain Chicken, and I know you've been at this for a long time, but would you say for example, would you say focus on Pinterest? Would you say video? I don't want to put words in your mouth. What would you recommend? Stephanie: [00:41:45] I would recommend really grow your email list. That's really the only thing you own. There's no algorithm for that. There's no correct size for that. Stephanie: [00:41:57] You know you're not going to create images for Pinterest that are long images, and they're going to want short images. You own your email list and you can have access to those people they've chosen to hear from you. Stephanie: [00:42:09] And so if I could have started growing my email list earlier, I would have because once I started to focus in on it, it grew. And that's like when all of this change happened with Google and they're changing their search you got to have certain things or you won't show up. Stephanie: [00:42:25] It doesn't affect my traffic because I have such a large email lists that I get a lot of direct traffic. For me, you have to do things and see where you're getting your traffic and that's where you put your focus. Stephanie: [00:42:42] It's hard to block out the noise of other bloggers but you have to look at your traffic ,and you go, I get all my traffic from Twitter which is crazy because it's not going to happen. But you just say you do. Then you focus on Twitterm you don't listen to the cool kids are doing Facebook. Stephanie: [00:43:00] You say that's not where my people, are my people are here on Twitter. My people are on Snapchat.  You go where your people are and try to just block out the noise of everybody else. Stephanie: [00:43:12] I do think video is important now, I don't think just for Facebook. But I think that brands want video and they don't even care. It doesn't have to be high quality. They just want the content because that's where the world's going is video. Stephanie: [00:43:29] So that's you know, that's what you need to do and that's where you go. Don't listen to what other people are doing. And now all the cool bloggers are doing. Look at your individual traffic and you have to march to the beat of your drum if you want to maximize your traffic. Jillian: [00:43:46] Yes. And are you doing video? Making videos as a food blogger Stephanie: [00:43:49] I have video. I've I've done some myself. But then I have a lady that does videos for me because it doesn't cost a lot of money to have somebody make you a video. Stephanie: [00:44:02] And it's not worth me taking a day out of my schedule to do a video, like I had a sponsored post recently and they wanted a quick turn around. So I did the video. It takes half a day and it's easily doable. But if it's not super quick turnaround, then I just have this lady that does a really great job. You know the Tasty style videos, I don't do the ones with me on camera. Jillian: [00:44:37] Yes. And can we talk about MiloTree? What are you growing using MiloTree? Why MiloTree is great for food bloggers Stephanie: [00:44:45] I use it for social media. So I have cycled through Facebook, Pinterest and Instagram. Jillian: [00:44:55] Got it. Stephanie: [00:44:58] It's really helped with Instagram especially because it's not intrusive it just slides in, and it's easy, it's easy to see the X to close. So I've never gotten a single complaint about it. Stephanie: [00:45:14] I get complaints about everything, but nobody complains and I've had so many blogger groups are like, Stephanie what are you using, that thing that shows your Instagram or that shows your Pinterest? MiloTree! And I send them the link and they're like that is awesome. Jillian: [00:45:33] Wait are you an affiliate Stephanie: [00:45:35] I'm not. I know I should be. MiloTree iss so unobtrusive so it's not on top of my recipes. I think it's just, it's just right there on the side and even on mobile it's so easy to see how to you know click off of it. Stephanie: [00:45:56] And it's, you know, very well labeled. It's not like some of things that are like where's the X? You know, I can see it and then it also may come from Pinterest, and it may show Instagram, and people are like, oh I'll follow you on Facebook, so they might go on the Facebook page. It's a steady growth of people that I think would not have followed me on a different social media platform would follow me, because they see that come through. Jillian: [00:46:28] Right. Food bloggers really like it. That's one of our biggest user bases is food. I think because social media is so important for food bloggers. Stephanie: [00:46:41] It really is. Jillian: [00:46:42] So Stephanie, I have to say thank you so much for being on the show and for sharing what you do, and for your success and your organization. I'm still thinking about that. I really am impressed with how you've been able to create this life for yourself. Stephanie: [00:47:04] It's amazing. It's not something I ever thought would ever happen. I thought I'd be an accountant forever. But it's wonderful the Internet is a wonderful thing. And I'm just very fortunate to have gotten in early and created a product that people like. Jillian: [00:47:20] Well thank you so much. Oh sorry. One last thing people want to reach out to you to learn more, see your weekly schedule, to connect with you. What is the best way to do that? Stephanie: [00:47:32] They can email me at Stephanie@plainchicken.com or shoot me a message on Instagram. I'm not good at messaging on Facebook. You can friend me and all I'll see it but I'm on Instagram. Or just email me, is really the best way. Jillian: [00:47:53] Wonderful. Well thank you again. Stephanie: [00:47:56] Thank you so much for having me. How to grow your authentic Instagram followers fast and free with MiloTree Jillian: [00:36:00] Are you trying to grow your social media followers and email subscribers? Well if you’ve got two minutes I’ve got a product for you. It’s MiloTree. Jillian: [00:36:09] MiloTree is a smart pop up slider that you install on your site and it pops up and asks visitors to follow you on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube Pinterest, or subscribe to your list. Jillian: [00:36:24] It takes two minutes to install. We offer a WordPress plugin or a simple line of code and it’s Google friendly on mobile and desktop. Jillian: [00:36:34] So we know where your traffic is coming from. We show Google-friendly pop-up on desktop and a smaller Google-friendly pop up on mobile. Check it out. Sign up for MiloTree now and get your first 30 DAYS FREE!

You never know who you're going to get into a Lyft with at a conference. Lucky for me, it was Gabrielle Blair from the blog, Design Mom, and founder of the Alt Summit Conference. Listening to her, I learned so much about how to be a super successful creative entrepreneur. Gabby was one of the first design-focused bloggers, and she paired that with being a mother to six kids. In our conversation, we talk about how she started her blog and grew it, how she and her family started the Alt Summit Conference for other creative entrepreneurs. We even go deep and talk about Gabby's battle with depression, how so much of what we both do as bloggers isn't exactly "real," and how we both deal with comparing ourselves to others. Gabby is such a down-to-earth, honest, kind person, you will love our wide-ranging conversation! Resources: Design Mom Alt Summit Darlybird Dooce Apartment Therapy Design Sponge Oh Happy Day Say Yes Freshly Picked Solly Baby Tubby Todd Emily Henderson Kinfolk Books MiloTree Transcript: How to Be a Super Successful Creative Entrepreneur with Gabrielle Blair Host: [00:00:03] Welcome to The Blogger Genius Podcast brought to you by MiloTree. Here's your host, Jillian Leslie. Jillian: [00:00:10] Hey everyone. Welcome back to the show today. I am excited to bring on my friend, Gabrielle Blair. Now Gabrielle and I really we just met in a Lyft on the way back from the airport to the Mom 2.0 Conference Jillian: [00:00:30] But I have known you from afar. You are the brains and the creativity behind both Design Mom, which is a blog that you've had since you started in 2006. Gabrielle: [00:00:44] Yes. Jillian: [00:00:44] And you're also the founder of a conference that I've been dying to go to called Alt Summit, which is a conference for creative entrepreneurs and influencers and you have such a beautiful blog. So Gabrielle, welcome to the show. Gabrielle: [00:01:00] I am so glad to be here. Thank you for the invitation. Jillian: [00:01:03] And it was so serendipitous that we were waiting in line and you said screw this, we're taking a Lyft, and we got in the Lyft with a random group of people and you paid for the Lyft, which was so generous. And I said to you, would you be on my podcast? Gabrielle: [00:01:18] And I said yes. Jillian: [00:01:19] And you said yes. So will you, because I don't know your story. I've known you. But I don't know your story so you tell me from the beginning, how you started this and one other thing we have to talk about in this is that you have six children. Gabrielle: [00:01:34] This is true. I have six kids, but they're not all toddlers anymore. So whatever you're picturing, it's probably not what you're thinking. Gabrielle: [00:01:44] I'm happy to share my story. You bet. So Design Mom was started in 2006. This is 12 years ago this month, July and I had just had Baby Number Five two months before, and I worked and lived in New York. Gabrielle: [00:02:02] I worked in the city as an art director at an advertising agency. And I loved my job, but after babies, once we were getting so many kids at home, I knew I needed a break where I could do sort of like an extended maternity leave, where I can maybe work at home, do some freelance that kind of thing. Gabrielle: [00:02:19] And I also knew by this time having had lots of babies that I go crazy if I don't have something creative to do after the baby's born. It's just sort of classic postpartum depression, you know you get overwhelmed. And if I had something to engage my brain that was creative and exciting, I could avoid some of that. Dealing with depression as a blogger Gabrielle: [00:02:37] Which is great. And I'm very open about having dealt with depression and dealing with depression daily, so you can read about that on Design Mom if you ever want to. But we won't talk about that right now. Gabrielle: [00:02:52] So blogs were around, but were still pretty new and most of the blogs I read were essay blogs and I really loved them. But I attempted to write an essay on a blog post once, and just went, Oh yeah I'm not good at this. Gabrielle: [00:03:06] This is not, you know, I had barely done any writing at that point in my life, and was really just a designer. That was where my focus was, on graphic design and art direction. Early design blogs Gabrielle: [00:03:15] But then I found Design Sponge and Oh Joy. And they were both design blogs that are still around, but they were very new. And you'll remember this is before any kind of social media, it was just blogs. And so a blog post might be what would be like a pin now, where it would be cute shoes. I love the cat pattern or you know what I mean. Like just something so simple. And that would be a blog post on a design blog. [00:03:41] Like a product image and a statement or it could be so short and you might do this multiple times a day. Because again it's like an Instagram or a pin or or a status update. Gabrielle: [00:03:54] So I saw that and went, Oh well that I can probably handle, it's very visual, very minimal writing and I can fit that in if I'm in the middle of a night nursing the baby or whatever. I just have a few minutes it doesn't have to be like an intensive eight hour block of work time. So I called it Design Mom. Gabrielle: [00:04:17] And at the time again I'm in New York, and I was 31, and here I just had my fifth baby. But most of my peers were just getting married or having their first baby. Jillian: [00:04:29] Wow. How old were you when you had your first baby? Gabrielle: [00:04:32] I was 23. Jillian: [00:04:33] Wow. Being an early pro at motherhood Gabrielle: [00:04:34] So for my peers in New York, as they're just having their first one like I am a total pro. Right? You know, they're having their first and I just had number five so they're asking me for advice as a mom, but also you know, it's New York you want to be a cool mom. So they're asking me like where did you find cute cute toddler shoes? And do you throw a first birthday party? Who's invited? The kid doesn't really have friends yet. Gabrielle: [00:05:00] Anyway that just stuff like that. I'm getting asked advice or do you use a sling or do you you know, use a carrier pack and which brand and what was the best looking option. What about diaper bags and just everything you know maternity clothes all of it. Gabrielle: [00:05:13] So I was getting asked questions by friends, my neighbors, my co-workers, naturally and I thought well I could cover that on a blog and talk about parenting but kind of through this design lens. Design Mom and the tagline from the beginning was the intersection of design and motherhood. Gabrielle: [00:05:31] And this is what I'm going to cover and that's what I did. That's what I've covered it was just ideas I had, or again I'd find some great deal on something or a new product that was cool or whatever it might be, and talk about it. And I would post three times a day and that was the average sometimes more and it took off. So this was even before Google Analytics this is I mean 2006 was a whole different world. Jillian: [00:05:57] And this was the time where, tell me if this is how you did it, but you would have your favorite blogs and you check them every day. Gabrielle: [00:06:04] Oh yeah. Because again, no social media. This was amazing. So I didn't have Google Analytics but there was a product called Track-See, a little software that you could put on your blog and it would count how many followers or who was coming. Gabrielle: [00:06:21] It was revelatory for me because my blog post might get five or six comments. Usually people I knew in real life, neighbors or co-workers or family members. But I put Track See on and I could see,oh there are a hundred and fifty people that came to my blog today and I don't know any of them, you know you would just have their IP address. And maybe their city and I would go, whoa what in the world. I was just amazing. Gabrielle: [00:06:49] So so it was trying to figure out, well how can I get them to speak out more and you know like how could I get them to sort of acknowledge their presence. How do I do that you know? Because I think it's amazing that these many people are reading. It just blew my mind. Of course now I have much bigger traffic. But at the time that was a big deal to see that there were over 100 people reading. The first blog giveaway started with Design Mom Gabrielle: [00:07:12] So I said, well what if I did giveaway and I've been credited for inventing the first blog giveaway. I don't know if you can even track that down. But I thought I need to give them an excuse to comment. So what if there's a prize and you can say anything you want and you just have a comment to win? Gabrielle: [00:07:31] So my one of my husband's friends from high school, I knew she had started a cool little shop called Darlybird. And I reached out to her and said, Hey would you be up for offering a prize and it will be comment to win and it's just this idea I have, and then you know you'll ship the prize to the winner and we'll just randomly pick someone you know pick a number kind of thing and let's just try it. Gabrielle: [00:07:57] And she's like, sure. How about a pair of earrings and a bracelet, or you know she came up with a prize. So I did it and I had the instructions that said OK we're going to try something new. Comment. You can say anything you want, I even gave sample comments so you know to help them out. Jillian: [00:08:15] Wow. Gabrielle: [00:08:16] Like, Wow this is cute. Or you can say, Neato! or I want to win! You know you're basically just really simple because I knew there was a few barriers for that. You know, people weren't used to commenting that wasn't a thing. And then there was a little captcha. And that the first time you see it you're like What is this?  You know that feels like an extra hurdle. Gabrielle: [00:08:35] And then of course it's intimidating to know you your words are just out there and your name might be associated with them, so I let them know. Oh you can. You can leave anonymous comment. You just need to have a real email address so I could contact you. But no one can see your email address. Gabrielle: [00:08:48] I'm kind of training them right. Teaching them how honesty works. And it was amazing so not all 100 plus readers commented but like 70 did. Jillian: [00:08:59] Wow. Gabrielle: [00:09:00] And I'm getting calls from all these people in real life that read my blog, you know neighbors are going. Who are these people? Where do they come from? Because of course they hadn't seen the stats from that. Jillian: [00:09:14] So they said this was just like a personal blog. Jillian: [00:09:17] Right. So they just thought OK so they're reading and the couple you know the few people commenting or reading, my sister's friends from church, friends in the neighborhood, you know things like that. Gabrielle: [00:09:28] And so they could not have been more shocked and I wasn't shocked because I knew I had seen the stats, but I still was shocked in that I didn't think 70 would, I thought I would maybe get 20 or something like that. Gabrielle: [00:09:40] So it was very exciting and immediately like the same day I got emails from must have been 10 or 15 different bloggers saying hey can I copy this? Can I copy and paste instructions? Can I do this because it was so effective. It's great way to sort of train people how to comment on a blog. Gabrielle: [00:09:59] And then of course it took off, and now it's just ubiquitous and of course are sort of obnoxious at this point. But it was a big deal at the time and I remember also having to explain to people. Every time there's a giveaway does that mean I get the prize. It goes directly to you, I usually don't even see it in person. Gabrielle: [00:10:20] Because they are already troubled with the idea that like I'm getting spoiled somehow by these I don't know. Anyway it was interesting. It's so intimate so personal, they don't like the idea that someone's making money from blogging at the time. Jillian: [00:10:38] Then how did you start monetizing online? Design Mom starting to monetize her blog Gabrielle: [00:10:41] OK so once I could see that there was traffic, once this giveaway thing took off. I was like, oh there's something here. No one was really monetizing their blog outside of display ads. I remember Heather Armstrong, Dooce had display ads and that was really kind of how you did it that, was it. Gabrielle: [00:11:01] And so but I felt like there was something there and I didn't have like an ad network to do to do display ads although within the next couple of years I got one but at first I just didn't even know how that worked or or how to how to go about that. Gabrielle: [00:11:15] So I started doing sponsorships right away just for trades. So one of the earliest ones I did is we were moving from New York, and we're moving to Colorado. And I approached I pitched moving companies. Moving moving across country is a big thing. Gabrielle: [00:11:35] And I approached moving companies and said I'm going to take these pictures on this blog post, you know gave them examples, showed them that some of that sample giveaways and just other stats I had at the time and said do you want to do a trade? Gabrielle: [00:11:50] I'll write about you, showcase the whole thing will do X number of blog posts. You know when we arrived, the unpacking all of this stuff make sure we're showing your trucks and let's trade. And Mayflowers said yes. So which was great because it is very very visual trucks so it worked really well. The green and yellow and they're really distinctive and for photography and stuff it was wonderful. Gabrielle: [00:12:18] This is pre-social media too. So blog content is really what the sponsor's getting. Then once I had that once I had built some of those trades I could actually start asking for money instead of trade. Gabrielle: [00:14:45] Trades are great, especially if you need it, but they don't buy groceries unless you're writing for grocery stores. I still I mean, I'm 12 years in, I'm established, I do this full time. I have plenty of paid sponsorships but I will still approach companies for a trade. If it's something that I need and I can get a great value out of that I'm totally fine with that. Jillian: [00:15:08] So give me an example of a trade that you recently did. How to approach brands about a trade as a blogger Gabrielle: [00:15:14] Sure, so I'm working on one right now for my boys' bedroom. My oldest son is getting home from two years abroad in Colombia. We haven't seen him for two years. He's been on a mission and he's getting home. Gabrielle: [00:15:27] We're redoing the boys' bedroom because while he's been gone it's been sort of half guestroom. It's just been in transition. So we're going OK he's getting home, he's older now. He probably won't even live in this room very long, but I want him to have a space when he gets home that feels like his own. You know just feel like he's got a spot. Gabrielle: [00:15:45] So I approached Room and Board, who I've worked with before and said, "Hey how about how about the social media package and blog package?" And I basically will price out OK I'm going to give you X number of post and X number of Facebook and X number of Instagram and I value that X number of dollars and then they'll trade for that amount of credit. Gabrielle: [00:16:08] And then I can use that to buy furniture and if I still have credit left over I could use it to buy additional product although usually I max it out. You know for the room, and it really gets decked out and have a good time. Jillian: [00:16:19] Got it. Gabrielle: [00:16:21] So that works great for me. I know I'm going to need to spend that money. It's great content. I know I can't buy groceries with it but that's fine. I can do other sponsorships for grocery money. Jillian: [00:16:32] So how often are you doing sponsored posts now? Gabrielle: [00:16:37] Oh it all depends. I feel like I aim for two to three a month right now seems to be a good amount. Jillian: [00:16:44] OK. And do you use a team of people to help you? Or are you the one taking the photographs? Hiring people to help with sponsored blog posts Gabrielle: [00:16:55] Yes and no. So I have had big teams in the past. I've had big teams of contributors and now I'm pretty barebones right now because I've shifted a lot of energy to Alt Summit. Gabrielle: [00:17:08] But basically what I have is I hire photographers, like I have a shoot for Room and Board tomorrow in store and I'll hire a photographer for that. Gabrielle: [00:17:16] So I have several local photographers here in the Bay Area that I know I can reach out to for basically a half day shoot, you know, come for two or three hours maybe up to four to shoot something at my house, or somewhere else other things I'd totally shoot myself. Gabrielle: [00:17:30] Often I'll shoot a shot recently for Stonyfield, my own kids. I'll shoot books myself. I shoot lots myself because I do things so last minute and that's just a function of a full life. I'm not trying to be a jerk about it, but it's just a function of how full my life is right now. Gabrielle: [00:17:51] It's hard to hire out somethings like there are definitely posts where I think, Oh I definitely should have hired someone to do this and I didn't do it in time and now I've got to do it. You know what I mean. I didn't. Because where I can do something the day of or the night before, I can't really ask that of someone I'm hiring. Gabrielle: [00:18:09] So I do have a great food contributor Lindsay Rose Johnson. She's been with me for years and years and years. If I do have a food post and I give her enough time she's amazing it's not like she needs months, but I don't want to ask her the day of. So she's amazing. Gabrielle: [00:18:25] If I have a craft project Amy Christie is a longtime contributor for me, and she's great at shooting. If I have an idea for a DIY but I don't have time to execute it myself, she's fantastic. Gabrielle: [00:18:36] What I'm trying to do I put out a call for an editor. I got amazing applications and then haven't actually had time to hire someone. Gabrielle: [00:18:47] My hope is that I will hire someone that can really help maintain daily content where I can check in with like when I have like a longer form post that I really want to discuss. Gabrielle: [00:19:03] Because Design Mom has transformed. Now it's almost all long form, it's one post a day. You know that kind of thing. But there are some things where it would be no problem to get a contributor. Gabrielle: [00:19:13] Like if I'm doing a shopping post or it might be a roundup of things I've found online that other articles that kind of thing where I really could get help. And then when it's something where it needs to be my voice like we're discussing a social issue or a parenting issue that I can really get in and write that. Gabrielle: [00:19:32] So I'm hoping to build my team up again in a way that I can keep Design Mom vibrant but also concentrate a lot of time on Alt Summit. Jillian: [00:19:41] So I have to stop you. You do one long form blog post a day? Gabrielle: [00:19:51] That's a little bit of an exaggeration. So, long form compared to when I used to do three posts a day? Yes. Because my three posts a day were you know two or three paragraphs and a photo. Or it might even be one paragraph and a photo. Gabrielle: [00:20:07] And now, a longer form might be it's 1,000 words or 3000 words and tons of photos or only one photo and a long essay. They are definitely longer form. If I can do one of those a week that's terrific. Gabrielle: [00:20:21] A Home Tour I usually do on Tuesdays and I do have a man named Josh Bingham. He's been editor of those for a while and it's been great. So he can help with that. And really what he does is you know compile it and put it online so then I can edit it from there you know. Jillian: [00:20:40] Wow. Yeah I mean I was on your blog today looking at your content and I didn't realize that you were posting every day! Getting comfortable writing as a blogger Gabrielle: [00:20:48] Yeah. And then I don't know if we count a shopping post, like I get pretty verbose at this point I'm like where I went from not being able to write an essay when I started in 2006. I mean I have a bestselling book now. I write a ton. Gabrielle: [00:21:02] So writing, I'm not very fast in it but I am comfortable writing now. I did one on a recent blog post is on four picture books. It's pretty minimal writing. So I just took more time to do the photos and the writing. Gabrielle: [00:21:20] And then my Friday links. I don't know that we call that long form, they do take a ton of research it's basically me collecting links throughout the week that I think are compelling that I want to share with readers and I'll do some introductory. Jillian: [00:21:35] We have to discuss this. What does your work schedule look like? Especially how many kids do you have at home? Because I know a couple of them are grown, too. Gabrielle: [00:21:45] Well this summer I have five at home. So yes my oldest is on this mission in Columbia as I mentioned. My second just spent her freshman year at Berkeley, which is just across town so she was in the dorms but not too far and she's been home for the summer. Gabrielle: [00:22:01] She's working full time so I don't see a ton of her right now but she is around. So really it's just the four, a high schooler two middle schoolers and a third grader. Jillian: [00:22:14] OK. So could you explain what your life looks like. What life looks like as a blogger with six kids Gabrielle: [00:22:19] Sure. I mean it's pretty crazy but I want to start with, my husband and I both came from big families where both of us are one of eight. Jillian: [00:22:30] OK. Gabrielle: [00:22:31] Number 5 in line and number 7 in line in his in his family, so we were used to an element of chaos. It just was normal to us and we knew we wanted a big family. Gabrielle: [00:22:40] So for sure our days would be too chaotic for a lot of people, which I totally understand and I'm not advocating that anyone else needs to do this but but it's also kind of normal for us. Gabrielle: [00:22:51] So a day that might stress someone else out, might seem like pretty normal at our house. Gabrielle: [00:22:58] So in the summer it's going to be different than the school year obviously. Last week was pretty crazy. Three of the girls were doing this skateboarding camp and then they went directly to swim team and then they had play rehearsal. Gabrielle: [00:23:14] But the play ended this week is going to be much more casual we have it's a much easier week but the kids are all old enough now they really can take care of themselves. They need rides but they don't need babysitters. Gabrielle: [00:23:28] So they can get up. They can work on an activity. They might climb our trees, we have these pretty epic trees where you have to put on climbing gear. Gabrielle: [00:23:39] They might bake, they really love baking. They might put on a play or make a movie someday if they're in the mood to be creative, or they might try and sneak in as much screen time as they can and just watch YouTube videos. Gabrielle: [00:23:52] You know typical summer day stuff they I don't really have to like take time to feed them lunch you know. Dinner yes, we'll all gather for dinner. But they can kind of take care of themselves. Jillian: [00:24:03] But are you working? Are you working between carpool? Or are you saying guys, I am working. Gabrielle: [00:24:09] Well my husband and I both work at home. Jillian: [00:24:13] OK. Is he your partner? Does he do Alt Summit stuff? Gabrielle: [00:24:16] He is not. He is part of a startup called Teacher.co and he is super busy in that and they're about to do an ICO. And he has a jam packed schedule. Gabrielle: [00:24:29] Over the years he has, you know, like we had a series of videos called All Of Us. That we did for scripts. We did like 40 episodes and he was a producer for those so he has worked with me before but really he has his own things. Which is awesome. He's does amazing stuff. Jillian: [00:24:45] Ok but do you like kick your kids out and go guys go to work? Gabrielle: [00:24:48] Yeah, totally so the kids know, I'm sitting with my laptop I've got to get worked on and they know that. But my workday gets interrupted a lot to drive. They're going to get picked up. Oh we got to do these errands. Gabrielle: [00:25:01] So my workday never really looks like I start working at 9:00 I end up 5 with a lunch break. That's not a thing. It's going to be I'm going to work from 8 to 10. But then I know we have to go run these two errands and then from 11 I have a phone call and then you know at 1:00 o'clock I'll get two more hours on the computer. Gabrielle: [00:25:20] But then after that, I've got something with the kids or something and then you know at 7:00, I can work again for a few more hours. Yeah I mean it might look like that. Jillian: [00:25:28] Wow. Gabrielle: [00:25:29] So I have my list of things I need to get done. I usually make that you know I'll update that in the morning. I'll find out my priorities at the top, the things that have to get done that day right. Gabrielle: [00:25:44] Those go at the top and then I tackle as much as I can. But I have to build a lot of flexibility in my days because it's real life going on, so yes you work hours but you also got to get the kids to the ortho appointment. Jillian: [00:25:56] Totally! And then there's food poisoning that takes the whole house. Gabrielle: [00:26:03] Right and then we're just out of groceries and we just have to go to the store. And there are tools I know out there, we just had a package from Amazon Prime Pantry. Have you ever tried that? Jillian: [00:26:17] Yes. Gabrielle: [00:26:17] You know that was delivered yesterday so there are some things I can do to try to use these services and I'm sure I could be better at that especially here in the Bay Area where all these startups began. So you can kind of access them before they even expand it to the rest of the country. Gabrielle: [00:26:32] But really, I feel like we do a lot of this just we don't use tools that we just go, OK we just go to the grocery store. What is the Alt Summit Conference? Jillian: [00:26:41] So can we talk about Alt Summit? Which is a conference that I have always wanted to go to. It seems like it is just so beautiful and cool. Gabrielle: [00:26:53] It is. Jillian: [00:26:54] And so you started this. So you said to yourself I'm going to start a conference? Gabrielle: [00:27:00] Well pretty much. So basically what happened was again, it's early blogging we were in 2009. So I've been blogging for a few years. My sister is a blogger. Her name is Jordan Ferney. Her blog is Oh Happy Day. Jillian: [00:27:14] Oh I love her. Gabrielle: [00:27:15] Yes, she's amazing. And my sister-in-law, married to my brother Jared, is also a blogger from Say Yes, Liz Stanley. So we had this blogger family and we were all on a family trip, and we were again since 2009. I guess it actually would have been 2008 because the first conference happened in January of 2009. Gabrielle: [00:27:36] So in 2008 we were talking and talking about conferences, and I started to go to a couple I've been to BlogHer and then helped start Mom 2.0 that first year, although I'm not an organizer now but just helped out that first year. Gabrielle: [00:27:53] Laura Maiz who is one of the key organizers, she also owns a part of Alt Summit, she is a longtime business partner of mine. So anyway that's the connection there. Gabrielle: [00:28:02] But I'm talking with my siblings we're all talking about these conferences, and I said well I've been to these conferences. It's awesome but they're really focused on writers or maybe kind of moms. Gabrielle: [00:28:14] A lot of the design blogs I was reading like Apartment Therapy or as I mentioned Design Sponge, Oh Joy. All these blogs I was reading in 2006 you know they're not at these conferences. The design blogs are not there and they're not really geared to design blogs. Gabrielle: [00:28:30] And so and like Jordan, who didn't have kids at the time, and Liz, who didn't have kids at the time, why would they have gone to Mom 2.0 Summit. And even BlogHer, they didn't really know any of those bloggers. It wasn't quite the right fit for them. Gabrielle: [00:28:44] So we were saying well, what if we did a conference for the blogs we read. You know these design blogs because I overlap both worlds with the name Design Mom I get to be a mom blogger and design blogger. Gabrielle: [00:28:56] But they were just strictly in the design blogging thing and this is before we were really even saying lifestyle blogs. So my sister Sarah who is not a blogger, but is awesome at organizing things said, yeah let's do a conference. I can be the event or the event planner or the organizer. And you guys can handle the speakers and content. Gabrielle: [00:29:19] Liz and Jordan didn't necessarily want to be involved in that, but I totally did. So Sarah and I really started this conference where I handled all the content, the speakers the programming. And she did the planning and it was and great. It was awesome. Jillian: [00:29:36] The thing about the conference is it's so true. They sell out immediately. Gabrielle: [00:29:41] They really do. It's like a two hour thing. Although I have to tell you this year we expanded for the first time in a big way. We've always kept these very small and it's kind of been obnoxious. Gabrielle: [00:29:54] I mean it's awesome to sell out, but then we get just these you know sob stories that people they really want to get there, and they didn't happen to be available in that two hour mark. They were in a meeting or whatever the tickets are gone. Gabrielle: [00:30:04] And we knew it was a problem and we'd try and open more. You know it was it was just a struggle. So we're really excited because I think I've solved that. I mean we'll see. We'll see how this year goes. Gabrielle: [00:30:17] But I had this flash of insight at some point as we were looking at locations and saying are we going to stay in Palm Springs, is time to move? Gabrielle: [00:30:27] And all the really cool hotels in Palm Springs the ones that I really love, The Park at Palm Springs and the Ace Hotel and Saguaro, they're amazing and they're memorable and you just love being there. Jillian: [00:30:38] Yes. Gabrielle: [00:30:39] They're not really big enough for a conference Jillian: [00:30:42] No. Gabrielle: [00:30:42] In fact Alt Summit was at the Saguaro the last two years. And we knew we were too big, and as we do surveys basically people would say, you guys this was awesome but this hotel is not big enough. Gabrielle: [00:30:52] I mean like we know but if we move to another hotel. It's just they become so generic so fast. Jillian: [00:30:58] Yeah. Gabrielle: [00:30:59] So you're at a Ritz Carlton or a fancy Hilton or whatever, it's just a big hotel with you know regular ballroom spaces they are split into classrooms. And then you compare those to these special properties in Palm Springs. Jillian: [00:31:13] And by the way we just have to say for people who don't know. Palm Springs is like a mid century fantasy like it is a designer's dream place. I mean my husband and I just drive around and look at the architecture. Yes. So I understand why you do it in Palm Springs. Gabrielle: [00:31:33] And we've all you know we did it had a big fancy hotel in Salt Lake for many years. We loved it. It was gorgeous. You know a five star hotel. Amazing. It's not like we're opposed to that, but we know having done it at these more distinctive spaces that it makes a big difference. Gabrielle: [00:31:47] And our social shares when we move to the Saguaro which is this Rainbow Hotel, our social shares went up by 30 percent. Well because it's basically the most Instagramable spot on the planet right now. Gabrielle: [00:32:00] And anyway so I was trying to figure out what to do because if we wanted to get a hotel, as I said it's really hard to find a hotel that has big meeting spaces but that is still really special and that doesn't feel sort of run of the mill. Gabrielle: [00:32:13] And we could transfer to something like, oh let's have like more of a warehouse feel on a pier or something. Jillian: [00:32:19] Right. Gabrielle: [00:32:19] But then it's not a one day conference, it's a month at a conference and people want to congregate at a hotel where they can hang out. So we know this and we were really stuck on where to have this. Gabrielle: [00:32:33] And then I thought well what if it was at all the coolest hotels in Palm Springs. None of them have a big enough room for you for everybody. But what if there was enough classes going on simultaneously at different locations where there's enough room for more people. But we still have this small feel, small classes and these really cool spaces. [00:32:57] So I'm really excited. We've expanded. We're going to have three times as many people, we're going to have 2,000 people there. We'll have four locations. And then because of these multiple locations, we looked to South by Southwest. And I've been to South by Southwest multiple times. And I look to see kind of learn what I could from them. Gabrielle: [00:33:19] Part of what they do is they actually do a nine day program. Ours will only be six. But the point is that you have more time to move around these locations and to fill your schedule instead of just like pack into classes and kind of get overwhelmed and and not feel like you got to do everything you want to do. Gabrielle: [00:33:36] We could spread this out and give people more time. Because that's some of the feedback we've gotten. They love the content but they want to see every class and they can't because they're you know several going on at the same time and even when we've repeated and we have tried things like that they just want more. Gabrielle: [00:33:55] And so we're hoping this provides that we know six days is a long time, and we know that some people will only come for part of it which of course is no problem. And they'll it'll be worth their while however long they can come. But we're really excited about this. Gabrielle: [00:34:09] And we did contract with one very big space where we can do like massive keynotes or things like that but otherwise everyone will get to go to whatever class they want to at whatever location, and we'll have shuttles going. We're hoping to do some kind of like electric scooters and let people get to know the city as they drive around and get access to all the cool spots in town. Jillian: [00:34:40] What month is it? Is it in February? When do you do it Gabrielle: [00:34:43] Well it's actually March. So it's been in January for now eight years. Jillian: [00:34:51] OK. Gabrielle: [00:34:52] Well sorry, seven years than two years in February, and this year we're moving to March simply for logistics. It was the week that all of the properties we wanted were available the same time. What type of blogger is Alt Summit best for? Jillian: [00:35:03] Got it. And by the way there'll be a link in the show notes if you want to check it out. And if you were to say who the perfect person or different types of people who would get the most out of the summit, who are these people? Gabrielle: [00:35:18] So these are typically women it tends to be about ninety five percent women. So it's women. And these are people that are drawn to creative careers. Gabrielle: [00:35:28] Originally it was aimed at bloggers. But again as social media has changed, it really expanded. So all of a sudden Etsy shop owners wanted to come and and they were welcome, we did content for them and then people who are making their careers on Instagram or Pinterest, you know they were there in fact Pinterest. The the Web site launched at Alt Summit. Jillian: [00:35:48] I knew that! Yes. Ben Silbermann talked. Pinterest was launched at Alt Summit Gabrielle: [00:35:51] Yes. Well and I can tell you a segue just a brief thing about Ben. First he came just as an attendee. Jillian: [00:35:59] Yes. Gabrielle: [00:35:59] One of our early years and he was just kind of, you know, he's not like a crazy loud guy, he's just really nice. You know seems kind of like an introvert you know and he would just be approaching people quietly and say hey, I have this thing. Check it out. And it was very visual obviously it's Pinterest and so Alt Summit was all these visual bloggers. Jillian: [00:36:22] Right. Gabrielle: [00:36:23] And and so they would try it out and loved it because it is such a useful tool if you're a visual person and you know the idea of being able to have a pinboard, with all the things you love is so right up any visual person's alley. And so people loved it. Gabrielle: [00:36:37] And the next year he came back he was on a panel, and then the next year he was the keynote because Pinterest had exploded. Jillian: [00:36:46] OK so if you are in design or if you are an influencer or if you are an Etsy shop owner. Gabrielle: [00:36:55] Right. So I want to say creative entrepreneurs. So if you are trying to run a business and you tend to the visual or creative. So like some really beautiful baby product companies have come. Gabrielle: [00:37:10] I'm thinking of like Freshly Picked, they do moccasins and diaper bags and things like that. You know she came to Alt Summit many many years, learned her social media here learned a lot of her business skills there and has built a massive company. And I certainly can't credit all them for that. but that the type of person that comes. Gabrielle: [00:37:27] Solly Baby who does wraps as well as Tubby Todd. All these women come to Alt Summit. Those are baby products but I'm just saying they all require lots of visuals, they're all required a lot of creativity. They're going for like beautiful lifestyle kind of things. That's a great fit. Gabrielle: [00:37:43] Jessica Alba came when she was just launching Honest Company. It was such a great fit. And any of the cleaning companies that are really cool and visual if you think of Method or Mrs. Meyers they love to come to Alt Summit. You know it's this very design appreciative crowd. Alt Summit is for creative entrepreneurs Gabrielle: [00:38:01] So you might not be a designer yourself, but if you're like, yeah, but I love reading Emily Henderson's blog or I love reading Apartment Therapy, or whatever it might be, You're going to love this. Gabrielle: [00:38:13] It's people building their businesses but they're trying to build a creative business. So that means we're talking about how do you do photography and we have modeling classes. A lot of these people have to be in photos right you know. So it's and then you know how do you present yourself so there might be fashion. How do you do your makeup. Gabrielle: [00:38:30] All of this stuff ends up overlapping with creative entrepreneurs especially these days where you have to be everything right. You are the marketing team, you are the model. Jillian: [00:38:40] Yes. You are the editor, you are the voice. Gabrielle: [00:38:45] So we're teaching classes on how to do all this content creation how to photograph, how to write, how to do all that but also specific marketing things, like here's how to start an email list and here's what you should be accomplishing with your newsletter and that kind of thing. Gabrielle: [00:39:02] And then it might be OK. Well what about Instagram Facebook. You know maybe it's on Facebook content but then another one on Facebook ads and how to run those. Gabrielle: [00:39:12] And then of course a lot of these people have written books and they've gotten their book contracts by coming to Alt Summit. We often have publishers there, pretty much every year and they're often taking pitches. Gabrielle: [00:39:28] So like the Kinfolk Magazine, I brought my publisher there, Artisan Books, to Alt Summit and they met the Kinfolk team and ended up publishing Kinfolk recipe books. I want to say the big you know coffee table huge volumes. Gabrielle: [00:39:49] And I can give a million examples of those so if you're someone is thinking a book and it might be a novel but it's more likely like a coffee table book or you know that kind of thing. Gabrielle: [00:40:01] Darcy Miller who is the editor of Martha Stewart Weddings for you know the entire run basically of the magazine comes because she's launching her new creative career as a crafter and you know everyone comes. It's amazing. Gabrielle: [00:40:14] So we'll have fashion people there, and we'll have YouTubers there and we'll have Etsy shop owners, tons of crafters, often Joanne's comes in as as a sponsor and we'll just even have classes where you can just craft your heart out. The balance between Design Mom and Alt Summit Jillian: [00:40:28] That's amazing. Now, how much of your life is spent doing Design Mom and how much is spent doing Alt Summit? Gabrielle: [00:40:37] Well Alt Summit is such a seasonal thing that it's it's probably ends up being 50/50 but it doesn't it doesn't feel like that because the Alt Summit stuff ramps up as I get closer. Gabrielle: [00:40:46] So like for right after Alt Summit, I'll have a few months where I'm barely doing Alt Summit. The conference is over there's sort of that dead period where we're doing it a little bit of marketing and some follow up and that kind of thing. But mostly I can semi-ignore my inbox there. Gabrielle: [00:41:03] But then the closer we get, the more I have to do Alt Summit until I'm at a point where I'm barely functioning on Design Mom, I'm sure the readers are furious. Gabrielle: [00:41:17] Or I've hired friends to give me content for the week. You know like guest post, things like that because I just have to disappear. Gabrielle: [00:41:25] The issue is this year with this expansion of Alt Summit, which again I'm so excited about, I think about it all the time it's going to be amazing. I have even less time for Design Mom and it is a really tricky thing. Gabrielle: [00:41:41] Design Mom's comment sections are amazing the community there is so good, so vibrant, so interesting and I don't want to give it up, it's like personally super fulfilling for me. And also I think it's important. It's one of the only place on the Internet where you can discuss some of these hard things and not have fights break out in the middle of the comments you know. It's a really special place. Gabrielle: [00:42:04] So it's my biggest challenge this year is going to be figuring out how do I maintain Alt Summit in a way that feels authentic and that readers are happy with, but be able to devote a lot of time to it. Gabrielle: [00:42:15] And I think the biggest issue I have and it's always been true is to do sort of that background infrastructure stuff. How do you fit that in? It's almost like you have to shut down the blog for a couple of weeks to do some of the background stuff you know like to say to do your hiring and to get people trained, how do I fit that in with my normal daily schedule of posting working on Alt Summit taking calls with clients, things like that, I don't know. Gabrielle: [00:42:41] I've never been able to figure that out. Do you know what I mean? Jillian: [00:42:46] I do. And I guess one thing that I would love just to speak to you briefly is, you are visual and you are a designer and you make beautiful things and we kind of touched on this previously. Jillian: [00:42:59] Before we we started recording we were talking about podcasting because you're starting a podcast, and we just were talking about it and we were talking about this idea of my philosophy with podcasting is to press record and just let it happen. Jillian: [00:43:15] And if you know, kids come in or dogs bark or whatever, I'm going to leave it in because this is life and life is messy. How do you reconcile the fact that you've got six kids and as you're describing your day, no day seems like it's like the next day, and yet there's something beautiful to what you do. How to balance the mess and the beauty as a blogger Jillian: [00:43:34] And I would say my days are messy but it doesn't look that beautiful. And when I think of Alt Summit, I think it's so beautiful it's almost intimidatingly beautiful. How do you balance the mess and the beauty? Jillian: [00:43:48] Because I think a lot of influencers struggle with the fact that they go onto Instagram and everybody's life looks more beautiful than the next. And we all say well underneath it, it's probably not like that, but how would you speak to that? Gabrielle: [00:44:04] Yeah, I mean I've spoken to that quite a bit over the years and I don't know that I have a great answer, but I'll tell you give you some thoughts. Gabrielle: [00:44:14] You know, we do as just as consumers of content because yes, I Instagram but I also read Instagram right. I follow people and as consumers of content, we do love vulnerability and honesty and authenticity. But I feel like only to a certain degree. Gabrielle: [00:44:37] I think people think, no I want the real thing, the unvarnished and I don't believe that's true because I've tried it over the years. Again I'm in this 12 years, I've tried this kind of thing and I've seen other people try it and people want the vulnerability but they want a little bit controlled. Jillian: [00:44:57] Or packaged with a pretty bow. Gabrielle: [00:45:00] You don't mind seeing the laundry but you don't want to actually see the dirty underwear. Like it's like, I don't mind seeing there's a cute little basket that has laundry in it that needs to be done or a big pile on the couch but there's pretty filtered light or whatever. Gabrielle: [00:45:14] But I don't actually need a close up of your dirty laundry like no one wants that. And of course not, that's disgusting but that's true. Like I mentioned earlier, I write about depression, and I do and it's a real and very real it's part of my life but I rarely write about it or even mention it when I'm in the depths of despair. Writing about depression as a blogger Jillian: [00:45:36] Yep I get that. Gabrielle: [00:45:37] I'll write about it after, it when I feel like I've gotten things under control and been able to resolve it and think about it and can reflect on it carefully, and then I'll write about it and talk about this is what helped and this is what didn't help, and you know and be able to be helpful about it. Gabrielle: [00:45:52] If I just told you every time I was super depressed, it's just too depressing for everyone else. You know it's just awful. Gabrielle: [00:46:02] So I can write about it and they appreciate it and I can give them helpful things and I can acknowledge that this is real, and they don't need to be afraid of it, and they can fight it. And all these things and I don't need to have shame around it but they really only want to hear that when I'm through it. Jillian: [00:46:17] And you're on the other side with a little bit of a bow on you. Gabrielle: [00:46:20] A little bit. And now now that's not always totally true. It depends on the platform and you know that kind of thing because if this is just my friends on Facebook on my personal Facebook page and I was you know in the depths of despair and just said Hey guys I need a little love. Help me out. Well you know like that's no problem. And I can really be in the depths of despair but I don't feel like I could do that on Design Mom. I mean maybe a tiny bit but not really. Gabrielle: [00:46:49] So it is real and messy behind the scenes and I don't think people really want to see it as much as they claim that they do. And so yes you can be vulnerable and honest and authentic in all these things. But I mean I get on Instagram I have different needs on different platforms right. Gabrielle: [00:47:07] Like on Twitter, I'm mostly just looking for news stories. I feel like I get the headlines fastest there versus even going to news apps you know. So I like news headlines and I like just funny, like people are funny responses and it's makes me laugh. Gabrielle: [00:47:25] On Facebook I use it more as a personal thing, so it's going to be like someone's birthday or it's you know someone had a baby or that kind of thing. Gabrielle: [00:47:38] And then on Instagram, I'm looking for pretty pictures and inspiration. Jillian: [00:47:42] Right. Gabrielle: [00:47:43] So content I make. Of course I try to use pretty pictures, but the things that get the best response is when I'm discussing sometimes heavy things like again social issues or politics or that kind of thing. Gabrielle: [00:47:55] But me as a consumer, I'm just looking for pretty pictures and other people are too, and I know if they don't follow me, I totally get it because they might just be like, No I'm just looking for pictures of parties or pictures of vacations or whatever that might be right. And that's totally fine, you can get whatever you want out of those things. But if I'm if I'm on Instagram, I just want pretty and someone is showing me their dirty laundry. I'm going to be like, no. Dealing with jealousy as a blogger? Jillian: [00:48:22] OK. Do you ever have that thing where you see somebody who does beautiful things and do you ever get that pang of jealousy or I wish I had done that. Gabrielle: [00:48:37] 100 percent. I don't know how to do that beyond human nature right. This is just how it is. Jillian: [00:48:44] But again I just have to say you are Design Mom, you created Alt Summit. I want to hear you too feel that way? Gabrielle: [00:48:51] For sure. So for me it's so I'll see something and I'll go. It might be business related right. I'll see. Like even the podcast. I'm working on this podcast but I've been trying to, I knew I needed to do this a year ago. I'd already gotten feedback about this and then had it confirmed again earlier this year. Gabrielle: [00:49:11] But again I've known this for a long time and so I'll see someone announce a podcast, or do something and think, I'm so behind, you know like that kind of stuff will kill me. Gabrielle: [00:49:20] Or if I see someone just doing something really smart on Instagram and I'm just a slacker on Instagram, and I'll feel like business guilt, like I know I could have a bigger following, and that would be better for me but also for sponsors and it's better for the business in general. Gabrielle: [00:49:35] But I'm not doing it and I'll feel that sort of business owner guilt, you know which I think if you a business owner you know what that is because there's always your list is never done. There's always something. Gabrielle: [00:49:44] Oh I should be optimized for SEO in these ten steps that I'm not doing, I'm only doing three of the steps, you know or whatever it might be, or I was doing a newsletter every month and then I had to take a break. Gabrielle: [00:49:56] And I'm feeling guilty because I see someone else's cute newsletter come out and I think I know I could get help with this and hire it out and get this done and why have I done that? So I definitely feel that kind of thing from a business perspective. Jillian: [00:50:08] And how about like somebody is launching a line of party supplies for Target? Gabrielle: [00:50:14] Why can't I have that? Why haven't I worked with Target before. Am I not good enough? And you start questioning yourself, should I be pitching is that where I should be spending my time? Gabrielle: [00:50:22] And then again business questions on like, is that how to make money, or is it better to sponsor posts or should I be doing some subscription service somewhere? You know where they get a box? Or you know trying to figure out those questions because you are trying to build a business and provide for your family. Gabrielle: [00:50:38] Yeah those kind of things can drive me crazy. And then you have the personal stuff, like you see someone, maybe I've had a day where like I've just really been glued to the computer. I had a bunch of deadlines had to get stuff done and I get on Instagram and someone's made cookies with their kids, and I'm like, I'm like the worst mom. My kids have been have been on YouTube all day. Gabrielle: [00:51:04] I haven't even talked to them, you know, I don't even remember even saying words to them this morning. I got right on my computer. And you just feel like a jerk you know. Gabrielle: [00:51:13] I mean that's just I don't know what to say. But I think everyone's going to fill that and I definitely take social media breaks and I'm not supposed to as a business owner. Jillian: [00:51:27] As an influencer, I know I do the same. By the way, I do the same. Take a break from social media as a blogger Gabrielle: [00:51:29] But I have to I think it's just kind of kills me sometimes so I'll take breaks, the easiest one for me to not take breaks from is Twitter because I don't follow anyone like that where it like. It's not really visual and I'm not following any of my business peers or really influencers. Gabrielle: [00:51:48] It's like again, I'm there for news or different things so I'm fine to get on Twitter and never throws me off like that. But Instagram can kill me. Oh my gosh or I'll see someone on vacation. Jillian: [00:52:00] Well for me on Facebook seeing people on vacation and I don't know why, because I go on vacation. But something about here's our family in Rome kills me. Gabrielle: [00:52:11] Yes. Or if I see a couple and I think when's the last time I took a vacation just with me and Ben Blair you know, where we got to get away. And I'm sure we should do that and keep our marriage healthy you know. I don't know how to avoid that. Gabrielle: [00:52:27] I know Facebook is a trigger for some people definitely Instagram is mine. Jillian: [00:52:30] Facebook is mine. Gabrielle: [00:52:32] Yeah. Jillian: [00:52:36] Well I have to say, I so appreciate your honesty about this because I have to tell you that I've been a writer forever, I was a writer in Hollywood for a lot of years so the written word is very comfortable to me. Jillian: [00:52:52] But visually, really I've always felt inadequate. And so to hear you say that you too have these feelings is so comforting and you are the brains behind Alt Summit, which I have always wanted to go to, but also feel like I don't know, I'd feel like a poser. Gabrielle: [00:53:12] No you would love it! Why we fake things as a blogger Jillian: [00:53:14] I say this to my daughter all the time. We'll be doing a sponsored post, and I'll be shooting something for Instagram and it will be a lava cake. There was this lava cake I had to make. Guess what? It got stuck, ultimately it didn't flow out so you know what. I faked it. Jillian: [00:53:35] I had some floaty stuff and I put the cake on top of it and I said to my daughter come in here, I want to show you this. This is fake and I want you to know that it's going to look good and it's going to look as if this stuff oozed out beautifully and that it totally worked. And this is fake. And I wanted to be a teaching moment. Why. Gabrielle: [00:53:58] Did she get it? Jillian: [00:53:59] She totally got it. And by the way, that post is up on Catch My Party and it doesn't say that I faked this. Gabrielle: [00:54:05] Well I don't blame you. I mean look, that's anyone who shot a photo ever of anything must understand that right outside the frame is chaos and mess. That's just the reality. Gabrielle: [00:54:18] And that was true long before blogs. I worked in New York I was in art direction. We do shoots for magazines, we do shoots for, you know all editorial and all kinds of stuff, and it's just a chaotic mess outside the frame period. It has nothing to do with being an influencer. That's just the nature of creation and photography. Gabrielle: [00:54:38] It's art. Think you have a beautiful piece of art on the wall at a museum. But to create that the mess that the artist made in their studio, was going to be nuts is going to be insane. And so that's that's how it is. Gabrielle: [00:54:51] So if you're if you're going to be someone who creates content and as a business person or an artist or just a creative, there's going to be a mess. Gabrielle: [00:55:01] And if you are a reader or consumer of social media or blogs or whatever it might be and you don't understand that this is pretend, it's every bit as pretend as the magazines you used to read. And that was the thing. Then you're there you're not being fair, you're not coming to this as a fair participant because no one has ever said this is my life all the time. Jillian: [00:55:33] So yes and I would say that for my daughter who is impressionable at 11. These are important teaching moments. Gabrielle: [00:55:42] For sure and for sure my kids know all of that because they're part of the shoots often. And so they know. All right everyone pretend we like each other. Jillian: [00:55:50] Exactly the number of times I've told my daughter to smile with gritted teeth, look like you like the pudding. Gabrielle: [00:56:03] And you know my kids just finished a play. They were in a play this week and they were three performances. It's the same thing. I had nothing to do with the play, had nothing to do with me. It was a big production. It was you know lots of adults they were kind of this children's chorus. Gabrielle: [00:56:17] And and you were at these rehearsals and it's a mess, and it's everything is behind schedule and blah blah blah. Like this is creativity. This is what it looks like. And they have to get on stage and pretend to be in a good mood even though the rehearsal went two hours too long and they're tired. And you know what I mean, like and they should have been in bed. Gabrielle: [00:56:38] This is not just blogging it's not just Instagram. This has always been the thing and it always will be as far as I can tell. I don't know how else to do it. It's the same with any creative endeavor, if you're a writer. You have these horrible messy drafts. Red ink everywhere and then you end up with this beautiful book. Jillian: [00:56:58] Totally I would say this. This thing which is I was a screenwriter, and I would finish a project. And it would be done and it would be and it would be great. Jillian: [00:57:09] And then I would start a new project and it would suck at the beginning and I would think to myself every single time, I lost it. I don't know I don't do this anymore because I was at the beginning. Gabrielle: [00:57:23] Yeah. Jillian: [00:57:24] And I'd forgotten. Gabrielle: [00:57:26] You are someone that's going to consume any content anywhere that was created as a creative endeavor, and whether again it's a fashion show or writing or a movie or whatever it was an enormous mess caused you know in order to create this thing. Jillian: [00:57:44] Right. And I bet you sucked at the beginning. Gabrielle: [00:57:45] And I'm sure the beginning, the first drop was awful and the first you know try the first photo was awful, and you know what. This is how it is if you're going to consume this stuff and pretend that's not true. Gabrielle: [00:57:56] That somehow, this book came into being perfectly. Or this movie came into being on the first take or whatever it is, I can't do anything to help you. You're living in a different world than I am if that's the case. Gabrielle: [00:58:13] But that said, and I understand that the feelings of jealousy or inadequacy are totally real. And they were real before Instagram. Gabrielle: [00:58:33] You know that or at work because it's the same reasons you didn't get the promotion or you didn't get picked for this project or whatever it might be. The feelings of inadequacy, the comparison, the all of that. That's not a new thing that has been with us forever. And I assume will be with us forever. Gabrielle: [00:58:51] And if you need to take a break from social media, take a break. It will be there when you get back you know it'll be waiting for you. Jillian: [00:58:59] I agree. All right. So Gabrielle this is terrific. How can people reach out to you see what you're doing, all of that? Gabrielle: [00:59:07] You bet. So the blog is still my favorite spot because I own it. And the algorithms can't change it. So yeah you can always go to DesignMom.com to see the latest, I post there very frequently and I'm pretty decent at responding to comments so feel free to check in with me there. Gabrielle: [00:59:23] I'm also on Facebook at Design Mom Blog, is my page on Instagram I'm Design Mom on Pinterest. I'm Design Mom I'm active on all of them. But if you want to see it first it's usually on the blog. Buying a ticket to Alt Summit Jillian: [00:59:34] OK and if they want to learn about Alt Sumit, are tickets on sale now? Gabrielle: [00:59:40] They are on sale now and prices are going to go up and up. So if you want them, now is the time to get them. The handles are all Alt Summit on all social. Gabrielle: [00:59:52] But the web address is actually altitudesummit.com which was the original name so it was originally Altitude Design Summit and then we're going to start calling it Alt Summit which is much easier to say. Gabrielle: [01:00:02] But yes, so tickets are on sale if you've ever been before. There is an alumni discount available because we know this was kind of a leap in price if you weren't used to it. Gabrielle: [01:00:13] But even for everywhere else this is the best price you're going to get, whether you've been there or not. Right now the best prices the best price you're going to get. It's going to start going up per month. Gabrielle: [01:00:23] Again modeling that on South by Southwest, seeing how other longer conferences do that. So this is definitely a learning year for us. But I just was on the call this morning about some content programming and it's really going to be epic. Gabrielle: [01:00:39] With Alt Summit, the goal has been to amplify women's voices and kind of what they're doing, the projects they're working on, and bringing attention to what they're doing which is still my goal. Gabrielle: [01:00:50] And this is going to allow us to not just focus on cool things entrepreneurs are doing, and cool things brands are doing, but you know what are cool films women are making, and what are cool bands and cool music women are making, and you know if you're if you're a woman and you're doing something really interesting, maybe it's a nonprofit maybe you're a writer. I want you there I want you there telling your story. Gabrielle: [01:01:14] Getting to know people and you can build your business or also just again amplify your message, amplify whatever it is you've created. So I'm really excited. It's going to be epic. Jillian: [01:01:25] Oh Gabrielle, thank you so much for being on the show. Gabrielle: [01:01:29] Thank you so much for having me. What a treat to talk to you. Please share The Blogger Genius Podcast with your friends Jillian: [01:01:32] If you are liking The Blogger Genius Podcast, then please subscribe. You can subscribe on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, really anywhere you get your podcasts, and please share it with your friends. Jillian: [01:01:45] If you have a blogger friend or an entrepreneur friend that you think would like it. Please get the word out, and if there are guests you'd like be to have just email me at Jillian@MiloTree.com. I would love to hear from you. So thanks for supporting the show. How to grow your authentic Instagram followers fast and free with MiloTree Jillian: [00:36:00] Are you trying to grow your social media followers and email subscribers? Well if you’ve got two minutes I’ve got a product for you. It’s MiloTree. 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Today, I'm talking with Instagram expert, Sue B. Zimmerman. We talk about how to win on Instagram NOW -- what's working and what's not. Listen to me in the hot seat as Sue critiques my Catch My Party Instagram page. She was definitely blunt, but since I'm always looking to learn, I was interested to hear what she had to say. I think you will be too!   Resources: Social Media Examiner Social Media Marketing World Sue B. Zimmerman Catch My Party Catch My Party Instagram MiloTree * May contain affiliate links. If you click and make a purchase, I might receive a small commission at no cost to you. Transcript: How To Win On Instagram NOW With Sue B. Zimmerman Host: [00:00:03] Welcome to The Blogger Genius Podcast, brought to you by MiloTree. Here's your host, Jillian Leslie. Jillian: [00:00:11] Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. I am so excited to introduce my guest today because I am a fan girl of hers. This is Sue B. Zimmerman. Jillian: [00:00:24] I think of her as an Instagram guru. She's like a social media educator, she's a business coach. According to The Huffington Post, she's "one of the top 15 must-follow women entrepreneurs." If you are not following her, I recommend you do so. Welcome to the show, Sue. Sue: [00:00:43] Hey, it's really great to be here. And I love that you told me when we were pregaming, that you heard me in your ears when you were on vacation in Hawaii years ago. Jillian: [00:00:52] Yes. It was just as Instagram was this kind of cool platform, but nobody yet had cracked the code of how to use it for business. Jillian: [00:01:04] And all of a sudden I was listening to a podcast when you were on it, and you started talking about that and you made my eyes go wide. I think it was a podcast on Social Media Examiner. Sue: [00:01:18] Yes. Probably, because you said that you then met me at Social Media Marketing World this past year. Jillian: [00:01:22] Yes. And I stalked you. I ran off the stage and followed you, kind of into the back, where I shouldn't have been. And I said Sue, please come on my podcast. Sue: [00:01:33] Oh that's so funny. I do remember you now, and yes I do have a lot of stalkers but I love all of them, so it's all good. Jillian: [00:01:40] I feel like I want to start from the beginning, but I also want to make sure we touch on all the stuff that's happening on Instagram. Because there have been so many new things rolled out just in the last month or so. Instagram is a village Sue: [00:01:55] Yeah, this might set you up for some good questions, and I know that you have some in mind but let me just first say to everyone listening that, you know, Instagram is really a village. There's over 1 billion monthly active users now. Sue: [00:02:11] When I first started teaching six years ago, there was 140 million active users so the app is growing like crazy. And now there are neighborhoods in the village. That's what I like to say. On Instagram, your feed is your digital magazine Sue: [00:02:24] I use this analogy, I think it really makes people think more clearly about this app. So we have our feed which is what we've had all along, and that essentially is your digital magazine where the bio is the cover of that magazine; who you are, what you do, why you do it, and how you're different from everyone else that does what you do. Sue: [00:02:45] And then your feed is a representation visually of that content that you promised in your bio. And then we have another neighborhood which is our stories. Jillian: [00:02:55] Yes. Instagram Stories is another neighborhood in that village Sue: [00:02:56] And there's a street in that neighborhood called Highlights, because in order to have highlights, you have to pull down the content from the Stories and bring those resources into your highlights. And then we have Instagram Live, the third neighborhood. And then finally we have IGTV. Sue: [00:03:13] So there is a lot that we can talk about, but I want the listeners to know that no matter which neighborhood you commit to visiting and hanging out in, it's essential that you always show up with purpose focus and attention in a branded way that your followers will connect to you right now. Jillian: [00:03:35] What do you say though to entrepreneurs, so our audience is bloggers, small business owners, that kind of thing. And I always say this, their most limited resource is time. Sue: [00:03:48] Right. Jillian: [00:03:49] So you're telling me there are all these avenues, all these places where I might need to be. Sue: [00:03:55] Right. Well I mean I coach a lot of clients, and I have a lot of people in my VIP community for Ready Set Gram which is our signature course. And I tell people that you should not feel like you need to be everywhere because your competitor is, you need to be where you're happy being, where it doesn't really feel like work. Choose a social media platform that doesn't feel like work Sue: [00:04:19] If you're saying, oh my god, I've got to go post on Instagram it totally sucks, and I just checked it off my to-do list, next! You probably shouldn't be there, because so much of the success on Instagram happens after the post with engagement which we can get into soon. Sue: [00:04:33] But I tell my clients to master one social platform, know every nuance, every tidbit of information on how to excel and show up in a way that people are going to remember you so that you stay top of mind. Sue: [00:04:49] The more you spread yourself too thin and you just do random things, you're just going to get random results. Sue: [00:04:55] And that's the problem with most busy solo entrepreneurs, creative-preneurs is they just do random things thinking that they need to do all the things and and they don't have any traction. Jillian: [00:05:06] Got it. Okay. So if I were an entrepreneur today and given that you you laid out all these different features and places on Instagram, can you recommend one over the other? What part of Instagram should I focus on? Feed, Stories, Instagram Live, IGTV? Sue: [00:05:23] It goes back to what do you enjoy doing because a lot of people hate being on video. So they like have palpitations about like doing Instagram Live or doing IGTV, or maybe showing up in their Stories. Sue: [00:05:35] You know it has to be where you have a comfort level. And when you have a comfort level, you have confidence, and when you have confidence you show up in a great way. Sue: [00:05:43] The minute you are not comfortable doing something, it just doesn't translate well and again you get those mediocre results. Jillian: [00:05:53] Got it. OK. Because right now I have to say, a switch turned in me where I said I want to be more active on Stories. I was having those heart palpitations just feeling like Oh I don't know what to put on. And I don't think people are going to really care. Jillian: [00:06:13] And then I somehow shifted my mindset and said let's play around with this. Let's start exploring gifs and music, and all these new features and just have fun with it. And I know that for example, in my Stories they're going to go away in 24 hours. And that freedom has really helped me. Sue: [00:06:36] Oh yeah. I mean, first of all people, a lot of people really love my persona because I am so real and relatable and not perfect by any means, and I show up in that way in my Stories. What is the magic of Instagram Stories? Sue: [00:06:52] And so you get a real sense of the intimacy of that person and that, to me, is the magic of Instagram Stories. When you can craft a story that is entertaining, compelling, interesting, funny, behind-the-scenes, you name it. Sue: [00:07:06] If you can really connect to your followers in some way that makes them want to engage and converse with you, you now have a conversation. Jillian: [00:07:18] OK so I just have to interrupt, I see people though, in their Stories and let's say they have Etsy shops, or let's say they're creative in some way, but I'm watching their Story, their kids jumping in the pool and I don't care that much. So then I get worried like, I don't want to show my kid jumping in the pool. Sue: [00:07:43] Oh, agree. I know I am not interested in a day in the life of you as a mom. You know, what you do, what you eat, where you go that's on a personal-business account not a business-business account not a business Instagram account. Sue: [00:07:58] So I have two accounts, you probably know this. I have a personal, where I show the day in the life of a busy entrepreneur. Why you want a personal and a business account on Instagram Sue: [00:08:05] And yes I do show you my husband occasionally, and my kids, my dog, where I go, where I shop, where I eat, where I travel and people like that, because a lot of people live vicariously through my travels, because I am on the go, and I show them things that they never would have seen. And I do it in a way that is entertaining. Sue: [00:08:24] Now on my personal account, the Instagram Expert, I'm always showing up with and only with Instagram-related content for tips and strategies and news and tactics. And it's very laser focused. Sue: [00:08:37] I say stay in your lane. Stay in your lane and don't detour. The minute you detour and show me that you're having... you know cheers, it's 5:00p.m. somewhere, Margarita time like I don't care. Jillian: [00:08:50] Right. Sue: [00:08:51] Good for you. Exactly. Jillian: [00:08:53] Okay, I get it. So you then use both accounts very differently. Sue: [00:08:59] Oh yeah I'm very intentional, very very intentional. So Sue B. Zimmerman is literally me. If you want to connect with me as an entrepreneur. Sue: [00:09:11] I don't know if you know this, I've been an entrepreneur. since I was 13. I've had 18 businesses. I had my first million dollar business when I was 22. I was on QVC. Sue: [00:09:21] I've got lots of wisdom and information that backs up the claims of everything I teach and do. It's based on experience and not just you know "I'm an expert." It's like I had success in my store on the Cape using Instagram first. And I had a very very successful store. Sue: [00:09:42] I decided that I wanted to teach other people how to have the same kind of success because retailers were challenged and struggling and that's really how I got into starting to teach Instagram is as a small business owner who went through it. Sue: [00:09:57] I was on Twitter, Facebook, Foursquare, doing everything to get more customers, and the minute I started using Instagram, my sales increased dramatically, so much so that I'm just like this is crazy. And so I just knew I was on a mission. Sue: [00:10:18] Do you know who John Lee Dumas is? Jillian: [00:10:19] Of course! Sue: [00:10:19] John Lee Dumas is a good friend of mine, he interviewed me on his podcast. And if you go search Sue B. Zimmerman, John Lee Dumas, you'll see he challenged me on that interview. Sue: [00:10:27] I said, I did a video kind of staking my claim teaching Instagram and that video's like five years old. I got back from a conference and just said I'm going to teach everyone all over the world how to use Instagram. Sue: [00:10:43] So like I just kind of manifested what I wanted and I don't stop till I get what I want. I'm that entrepreneur. I'm that focused that determined. Sue: [00:10:52] And so six years later. Yes, six years later I have a business that's thriving, it's extremely successful. I have two full time employees. I have five contractors. We're a mighty team of seven and I play to my strengths every day. Sue: [00:11:09] And not everyone has that luxury. I don't want to go down a rabbit hole here with you, but that's just to give a little context to everything I'm saying. Jillian: [00:11:16] Absolutely. Absolutely. OK so here's here's my question, is the goal with Instagram connection? Is it, I want people to interact with me? Or is it I just want to kind of blast out my life? Instagram is about connecting and having a conversation Sue: [00:11:33] No no no. I mean everything's always, like I said, with intention. I believe that a comment on Instagram, if someone leaves a comment on Instagram, a real comment, not a follow me BS but I hope I can say that on your podcast. Sue: [00:11:50] OK so if somebody leaves a real comment in my mind, that is permission for you to have a conversation, meaning you can respond. I mean you should. You should respond to every comment. Sue: [00:12:03] But meaning you could take that conversation deeper if you wanted, to you could strategically have conversations one to one in the Instagram Direct Message because conversations lead to building a thriving community. Sue: [00:12:16] And when you, and when you have a thriving community of people who champion for you and endorse what you do, and talk about you, when you're not listening and tag you on posts and repost your content then you have conversions. Sue: [00:12:29] And conversions, we all want them. Are things like growing your email lists or actually selling something but it doesn't start there. And that's where people have the biggest problem. They want to have a sale first without even saying hi or commenting or connecting. Sue: [00:12:48] You've got to connect with a comment to have a conversation, you know to take that conversation deeper. And I do this. I have blocks on my calendar, twice a day, where I am spending time engaging in real conversations, and people ask me questions I answer. I direct them to a blog post I've written I've direct them to an IGTV video I've done. I direct them to an Instagram post. Sue: [00:13:15] I give them the information they need and I build that trust and so when they are ready to purchase something from me, or maybe join my group coaching or buy my hashtag handbook or purchase one of my social media classes, like my instagram Story class or a hashtag class or a course I can direct them where they need to go and not sell them. Sue: [00:13:37] No one likes to be sold to. No one. People want the thing that's going to help them get what their pain point is, like what are their challenges. Jillian: [00:13:47] Right. As a busy entrepreneur I think that we think about Instagram as brand building. And by the way, that's really abstract. How Instagram is brand building Jillian: [00:14:01] I think we think about it in a really abstract way and what you're saying is very different. Sue: [00:14:06] Oh but also I believe when it's done well, absolutely it's brand building. If you have a branded look and feel an energy around your content, you will attract your tribe. You will attract those that you are trying to serve. Sue: [00:14:23] But if it's not branded or there's not a theme or a message or information that's relevant to attract that person you're not going to have results. Jillian: [00:14:35] Right. But I think though you're taking it to another level then I think I typically think, when I think of Instagram. Which is for me it's more amorphous brand building. Jillian: [00:14:46] So for example, Catch My Party, which is our first business. We have something like 150 thousand Instagram followers, and we show off content from our site which is all about parties. People upload their photos of their beautiful parties we show them off. Jillian: [00:15:04] And so for me it's always felt like this is our way of giving back to our community, to say here we want to highlight these people who've done amazing work, hopefully send some followers their way. But I think that I have not taken it to another level. Sue: [00:15:25] What is your account? Jillian: [00:15:26] Catch My Party. Sue: [00:15:30] What does that stand for? Jillian: [00:15:32] Catch My Party is take a look at my page. Sue: [00:15:36] OK. So I'm looking at your account already. Wow you really have 156,000 followers. Jillian: [00:15:42] Yeah. Sue: [00:15:43] Wow. Jillian: [00:15:44] Thank you. Sue: [00:15:45] OK and how long have you been here? Jillian: [00:15:47] About five years. Sue: [00:15:49] Wow. That's impressive. Jillian: [00:15:52] And by the way I just have to say all organic growth. We've done nothing except post beautiful parties. Sue: [00:15:59] Wow that's really impressive. OK. So where you wrote Catch My Party that's where you're missing out in some SEO. No one's searching for Catch My Party on Instagram Sue: [00:16:10] And your bio could definitely be improved a little bit more directive. And what's this app? What is MiloTree and how does it work? Jillian: [00:16:19] So what we did, was we built a plug in to help us grow Catch My Party. It worked so well for us. We rolled it out as a separate company called MiloTree. And that's what the podcast comes out of is MiloTree. So if they want to grow your Instagram followers you can do it with our MiloTree pop-up. Sue: [00:16:40] What is this pop-up? What does it do? Jillian: [00:16:43] So what you do is you install it on your blog or Shopify store, or something like that and it pops up and it'll say Hey follow me on Instagram and the pop-up itself shows your most recent posts on Instagram. Sue: [00:16:56] Gotcha. Okay. Jillian: [00:16:57] And then you can also use it just so you know, for Pinterest, for YouTube, for Facebook or to grow your email list. Sue: [00:17:06] Okay cool. All right. So anyway Catch My Party definitely can have some improvement in the bio there and the thing that's missing with Catch My Party in my opinion is people. There's no people here. Jillian: [00:17:18] OK. Sue: [00:17:19] I'm not interested in looking at parties, I'm interested looking at people having fun at a party and partying. I'm not interested in the set up. To me this is just ok. This is Pinterest. Jillian: [00:17:32] Yes. Sue: [00:17:34] This is more Pinterest. On Instagram, people want to emotionally be pulled in so. Oh Happy Day. Oh Joy. Sue: [00:17:44] Oh Joy is a great account. She pulls you in. Oh Happy Day party shop pulls you in. Although they may they do a party shop, but they show people every now and again on theirs. Sue: [00:17:56] So you're missing out on the human aspect of your account. It's more just showing the party. It's very almost like marketing heavy. Jillian: [00:18:05] I love this free session here. Yes. And so that's what we are trying to think about, which is how to personalize it. And my instinct is to personalize it with Stories. Sue: [00:18:20] Oh for sure. You're not doing any yet? Jillian: [00:18:22] No I am, I am I think you might see my new haircut for example. Sue: [00:18:27] OK. Yeah. So I see your haircut. I really don't care. Jillian: [00:18:43] I know! Sue: [00:18:44] That's such a disconnect from what you post so I would unfollow that account if I saw that. I'd be like, Who are you? There is nothing that represents a party in this post. Jillian: [00:18:54] Right. Sue: [00:18:55] And so I would have been like, I'm bouncing. This is not what I signed up for. This is not why I'm following you. It has to be consistent everywhere. If it's not you're going to lose your followers. Sue: [00:19:08] Favorites of the Week. Yup what we do do that. Yes. Yeah. I mean again people are missing. Yeah. I mean it's a whole human aspect of the brand that's missing. Jillian: [00:19:24] I love that. OK. I mean it's funny because I feel like my businesses are very siloed. So in my podcast people get to hear me and know what I am doing. But I feel like Catch My party is probably too siloed. Sue: [00:19:46] Yeah I mean we can do a whole strategy session. Let's keep going with your questions for the for the interview what will what will help your followers the listeners. Jillian: [00:19:55] OK so let's talk about followers and how important are they and how important is it to be growing followers. Sue: [00:20:04] It's important to grow the right followers, not followers, and to be honest with you I have a lot of followers on the Instagram expert and they're not the right followers. Sue: [00:20:12] And so you know I have 64,000 followers or something like that. And I wish I was much more intentional at the very beginning and blocked followers that were literally just random followers you know from countries, guys, teenagers, the random people that followed me all over the internet but don't take any action that lurk on. Sue: [00:20:34] Because if I blocked all of them my engagement rate would be so much better. But now that I have some, I have so many followers that would take so much time for me to go back and the truth is I grow my email list about 200 to 250 people a week every week. Sue: [00:20:48] And that's my biggest goal. My goal isn't the followers. My goal is getting people on my email list so I can stay in touch with them. Jillian: [00:20:54] Interesting. OK. But then we were talking about how you will also reach out and talk to people on Instagram. Sue: [00:21:02] Exactly. I do that every day. I mean I do that either in the direct message with a video, I do it in comments every day. It's what I do. How to show up for your Instagram community Jillian: [00:21:13] But people will say oh my god, that's exhausting. Sue: [00:21:17] Well it's not when it's what you love doing. And how I get results. You want to grow with rising thriving business. It's working. That's positive reinforcement. Sue: [00:21:30] I show up for my community because my community loves what I do. And I have real conversations and I have real customers and I have real clients and I'm and I make real money. Jillian: [00:21:39] Right. Sue: [00:21:40] So there's the positive reinforcement it's working. If it's not working you're doing something wrong. Sue: [00:21:45] If you're not converting you know, you have 156,000 followers. And are they on your email list or are they just on Instagram? Jillian: [00:21:54] They're on Instagram. Sue: [00:21:56] Do you have a list? Jillian: [00:21:57] Yes. Sue: [00:21:58] OK. So if they're on Instagram they're not on your list that there's a problem. What is your goal? What do you try to get out of these followers? Jillian: [00:22:04] We monetize via traffic predominantly and affiliate sales. So we're not selling a specific product. So our business model is a little bit different. Jillian: [00:22:16] So with MiloTree we are selling a product, an app. So that's again why our businesses are very different and so therefore, I want that one-on-one connection with MiloTree, with the Blogger Genius Podcast, whereas I want eyeballs on Catch My Party. Jillian: [00:22:39] So for example, on Catch My Party, yes we are incredibly aligned with Pinterest, and we have 850,000 followers on Pinterest. Jillian: [00:22:49] So I say to people you know if you're a mom, and you've been planning parties, chances are you've been on my site. Sue: [00:22:56] OK. Jillian: [00:22:59] So we are intentional. And that's where Instagram, we've just kind of grown naturally. But I have not been as intentional with Catch My Party on Instagram so hearing you is very helpful. Sue: [00:23:13] Yeah because I'm looking, you have 156,000 followers and you're not even getting 100 likes on a post. You know the one you just did. OK you have a couple hundred you make it to about 300 on a post. Jillian: [00:23:27] Well it depends. Just so you know, a mermaid party. We will get many more. Sue: [00:23:32] That's interesting. Jillian: [00:23:33] So it's very content specific. Sue: [00:23:35] Yeah. Yeah. Jillian: [00:23:37] You know if it's a theme that people love, we can get over 1,000 that kind of thing. Sue: [00:23:44] Right. Right. Yeah. So what is the question you want me to answer for your followers or your listeners here right now? Jillian: [00:23:51] For my listeners is, should people on Instagram be thinking about growing followers? And I think what you answered is, it's really for you in your business about engagement and that if, in fact, you have high engagement, Instagram and their algorithm will go ooh this person's getting a lot of engagement. We should show her stuff to other people. What is engagement on Instagram? Sue: [00:24:15] Right. Well engagement is based on how many saves you get, how many comments you get, how many likes you get, and how quickly they all comment. Jillian: [00:24:23] How quickly they comment once you post? Sue: [00:24:25] Yes. Jillian: [00:24:27] OK. And so therefore for so that's why you were saying it be better if you went through and got rid of the dead weight? Sue: [00:24:35] Yeah. I mean if only you know, that's a lot. Sue: [00:24:38] You know, when you have hundred you know thousands of followers that's weeks and weeks if not months and months of time, and so I just would rather move on. And now I block anyone that's following me. That is just like, Are you kidding me right. You know like it's just I can tell by their profile by. I know. I know my target audience. And if you're someone that doesn't fit it I'm just saying bye-bye I'm not interested in your follow. Sue: [00:25:05] I would rather have the right follower, but I wish I did that long ago. That's that's what I'm saying. Jillian: [00:25:11] That's so interesting. Could we talk about traffic because on Catch My Party. That is our primary goal. But Instagram is not necessarily a great way to get traffic. Sue: [00:25:24] What are you talking about I get traffic everyday. What do you mean? Jillian: [00:25:28] I guess versus say SEO, focusing on SEO or Pinterest drives traffic. Sue: [00:25:35] Well so it sounds like that might be one of your preferred platform. I'm not heavily into Pinterest and I don't pay for any SEO. We get great traffic to our website every day because we use keywords and everything that we do and all of our blog posts and all of our YouTube channels and we know it. What are the right keywords. Jillian: [00:25:51] Right. But in terms of when you are driving people, is the goal on Instagram to drive people to your site? Sue: [00:26:01] Absolutely. Every day. Jillian: [00:26:03] OK. Make sure you have a website, not just an Instagram account Sue: [00:26:03] Because you own it, you don't own Instagram. What if it blew up tomorrow? What if you lost your account because you bought followers. People message me, they buy followers, Instagram is cracking down on anyone with fake followers. They're deleting accounts. They're banning people that are doing bogus things on Instagram and they come crying to me as if I can fix it for them. Sue: [00:26:24] I'm like, you shouldn't have bought all those followers or Instagram knows when to use software you know. So the only thing you have is your website. Jillian: [00:26:34] So what do you think though about people who build businesses on Instagram who don't have a web site? Sue: [00:26:40] That they could go away tomorrow and they'd be up shit's creek if that's what they're relying on and that's why it's so important to have a website. Sue: [00:26:47] I mean you can start a business on Instagram. Many people do. My daughter did. You can start and test the idea you can do market research, but you should always, your goal should always be to get people to go back to your website and join your email list. Period. Sue: [00:27:02] That is our goal every time. You know we have a weekly campaign with our blogs with my social stuff on Facebook. I'm constantly looking to grow my email list and nurture. Sue: [00:27:15] The reason is I can nurture those relationships off of Instagram on my own terms through my own emails. Jillian: [00:27:22] Right. And then how often are you sending emails? Sue: [00:27:25] Once a week pretty much, we are publishing a blog once a week. Again we are in touch with our audience once a week when our list grows daily. Jillian: [00:27:34] Right. Right. Okay now for example then, for you with Instagram. Do you feel ever there's whiplash? How to keep up on all the changes with Instagram Sue: [00:27:45] What do you mean by that? Jillian: [00:27:46] Like they just rolled out IGTV. Sue: [00:27:52] I love it. I love keeping up with all the updates. They're just improving and making it the go to place to be. Jillian: [00:27:58] Yes. Sue: [00:27:59] People have abandoned Snapchat including myself. People that are intimidated with doing a YouTube channel which I'm not and I have one Sue B. Zimmerman you can link the show notes. People can learn from me for weeks there. Sue: [00:28:11] But a lot of people are intimidated with the process of a YouTube channel, and so this is a good opportunity to put up some content that lives on in your channel. How is IGTV different from YouTube? Jillian: [00:28:22] Tell me your thoughts on IGTV and do you think it will rival YouTube? Sue: [00:28:27] No it will absolutely not rival YouTube because YouTube has a website and IGTV is an app. So the SEO is not the same. Jillian: [00:28:35] OK. Sue: [00:28:36] I have content on both. I have very successful IGTV videos, all of them over a thousand approaching 2,000 views. Lots of comments because my content is still consistent to what I do on Instagram. Sue: [00:28:52] We are testing the channel and doing seven different content buckets there and next for our next team meeting we're going to review the stats, the views, the comments, and retention on each one because you can get stats for each one too. Jillian: [00:29:08] Wow. OK so if I'm an entrepreneur and I want to try out IG TV, what would be your recommendation for my first video? Sue: [00:29:19] It really depends. Like that's not where I would start if you're an entrepreneur, you have to understand all the areas of Instagram like we talked about at the beginning and if you're good on video and you are a good teacher and you can keep someone's interest and deliver really good content in a short period, then you can you should create the content that your followers would be interested in. Sue: [00:29:41] Keep a Google doc. What are the questions they're asking you? What are the pain points they're having? Do they want to know the recipe for the mermaid cake? Is there dye in the frosting are you using pearl, you know edible pearls you know, like what are they asking you? That's what you that's what you create. Jillian: [00:29:58] Got it. OK. What accounts do you follow that you go they are doing it right? Sue: [00:30:04] I follow a lot. Everyone listening could go to the Instagram Expert and look at who I'm following. I am right now following under 650 accounts but I'm following them all because they're all amazing. Sue: [00:30:17] And my favorites are brands that I'm very close to the Drybar. I get a blow dry time so I love the Drybar and I feel like I'm walking into the Drybar when I'm there. Sue: [00:30:28] Creative Live. I love their content. I taught on stage there four times and I like supporting them. I like Post-It. Post-It brand is very creative on Instagram as a big brand. Jillian: [00:30:42] Yes. Sue: [00:30:43] They stand out nicely. There's Emily Coxhead. She's got an account which is awesome called the Happy Newspaper and from London it's a real newspaper I actually get it delivered so that's pretty cool. Jillian: [00:30:58] OK. Sue: [00:30:59] Sugarfina is a great account, a candy account which you could learn from. Like if you replicated what they did a lot. They've got the whole party thing going on, but it's with candy. Their accounts are really great. Sue: [00:31:12] I mean I could go on and on but people can just go and look at what I do. Jillian: [00:31:16] Great. Well okay. One last piece of parting advice to people who want to do better on Instagram. Sue: [00:31:29] OK, and the question is? Advice for success on Instagram Jillian: [00:31:32] So that would be to people who are overwhelmed by Instagram. What would you say? I guess you've answered this question, but ok if I were to say back what you're saying and you can tell me if this is correct. Jillian: [00:31:49] Find your lane, be intentional, and you don't have to be everywhere, and interact with the people who are interacting with you. How does that sound? Sue: [00:32:05] Yeah I mean I think people that are stressed about posting, if they spent more time engaging they would have greater success. Sue: [00:32:12] So to everyone listening it's like Oh my god I can't keep up. I got to post something every day. You don't, you just have to post really epic content when you post, not crap. Sue: [00:32:22] And when you post epic content, you will get people interested. If you can't come up with something awesome to post and show up as an awesome person who is engaging. Sue: [00:32:34] I will say this is one of my ninja tips is when you show up in someone else's comment feed and yes you all should turn on notifications on the Instagram expert. That's where on the top right there's three little dots. If you press those three little dots and you turn notifications on. Sue: [00:32:50] Every time I post you will get a notification and so I challenge you to do that and when I post be a part of the conversation. Tell me what you learned from the post. Because I'm always teaching when you, the listener shows up consistently in the comment thread with a real comment that is thought provoking. Sue: [00:33:11] The person commenting below you will see it and if you show up consistently in the right communities whether it's brands, businesses, bloggers, authors that you love and respect you will get their attention because every time you comment, there's a notification that you've commented and not only will you get a notification from the content creator. The people above you and below you. Sue: [00:33:36] People leaving comments will see your comment and if it's really good, they might say wow that was such a nice comments that that person just left. I'm going to go check check that out. Sue: [00:33:49] And that's what people don't realize, the power of the comment is so profound if people just focused on real conversations, Instagram would be so less stressful for people. Jillian: [00:34:03] I love that I love that. Ok you've shared places people can reach out to you. But what is the way the best way to see what you're doing to connect with you? I'm sure it's like to DM you. So what should people do? Sue: [00:34:19] The best thing to do is to literally you know open up your browser, if you're in the car pull over pull over and grab my guide. SuebZimmerman.com/bloggergenius and you will get my free guide that will set you up for success. Sue: [00:34:42] And then you will be on my email list and you will be connected to me via email and you'll get all my wonderful emails and I'm talking about. So that's number one. Sue: [00:34:51] Number two for those of you that are action takers, and I love action takers. Come on over to my Instagram account and introduce yourself on one of my posts and let me know that you came over from this specific interview and you can tag MiloTreeapp. Sue: [00:35:11] Okay so I mean do you personally have an account? Or those are your two accounts? Jillian: [00:35:15] Those are my two accounts. Sue: [00:35:16] Okay so you can tag MiloTreeApp you can let me know that you heard this on this podcast interview and I will come over and say hello to you. Jillian: [00:35:28] Oh that's wonderful. That's wonderful. Jillian: [00:35:31] Well, Sue, it has been such a pleasure. I am a fangirl even though you've given me some some stuff to think about and work on. I so appreciate it again. The more I can learn, the better. Sue: [00:35:45] Yeah well I am brutally honest it's that East Coast Boston persona that I have, met with a heart of love. Jillian: [00:35:53] Of course and I feel it. So thank you. Sue: [00:35:56] Okay good. All right thanks for having me. This is a lot of fun. How to grow your authentic Instagram followers fast and free with MiloTree Jillian: [00:36:00] Are you trying to grow your social media followers and email subscribers? Well if you've got two minutes I've got a product for you. It's MiloTree. Jillian: [00:36:09] MiloTree is a smart pop up slider that you install on your site and it pops up and asks visitors to follow you on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube Pinterest, or subscribe to your list. Jillian: [00:36:24] It takes two minutes to install. We offer a WordPress plugin or a simple line of code and it's Google friendly on mobile and desktop. Jillian: [00:36:34] So we know where your traffic is coming from. We show Google-friendly pop-up on desktop and a smaller Google-friendly pop up on mobile. Check it out. Sign up for MiloTree now and get your first 30 DAYS FREE!

Angela Davis from the blog, Frugal Living NW, makes over six figures a year and works part time. She does this all with affiliate marketing. In this episode, we delve into her strategies and tips on how to make serious money with affiliate marketing. We go through what types of links to add to your posts, why patience is key, and what affiliate networks are the best. Join me and learn the secrets to increasing your blog's passive income! Resources: Frugal Living NW Catch My Party Amazon Associates MiloTree Affiliate Program ShareASale Commission Junction LinkShare Impact Radius Facebook.com/FrugalLivingNW MiloTree Transcript – How to Make Serious Money with Affiliate Marketing with Angela Davis Host: [00:00:01] Welcome to the Blogger Genius Podcast, brought to you by MiloTree. Here's your host, Jillian Leslie. Jillian: [00:00:09] Hey everyone. Welcome back to the show. Today, my guest is Angela Davis. Angela is a blogger at the blog, Frugal Living Northwest, and she is also an affiliate marketing expert. So welcome to the show, Angela! Angela: [00:00:27] Thanks, I'm happy to be here. Jillian: [00:00:28] So I am really excited because one thing that I don't think I've delved deep into is affiliate marketing. So to have somebody who lives and breathes this is so exciting for me. Angela: [00:00:42] Well I am excited to share with your listeners how they can make more money off of the work that they're already doing on their websites and their platforms. Affiliate marketing -- how to make money quickly as a blogger Jillian: [00:00:52] And one thing is that when I've asked people in the past if you're new, you know, if you were to give advice for how new bloggers can make money quickly, a lot of them will say affiliate marketing. Angela: [00:01:07] Yes, I don't know about the quickly part. But I think that affiliate marketing is the place that you should start, especially if you're beginning or really, anywhere you are right now start adding those links in. Angela: [00:01:23] Because now is the time to start to start getting that money rolling in. It's we can talk about this little bit later as well but I feel like affiliate marketing is a slow burn. Angela: [00:01:35] You're not going to make a ton of money starting right out. It's more kind of like doing the work now, so that in the future you can continue to earn money on the work that you're creating. Jillian: [00:01:47] Ok, so before we get into it, can you describe what affiliate marketing is? What is affiliate marketing? Angela: [00:01:55] You could think of it kind of like making referral money. So when you promote another business or brands product or service that you get basically a commission when you make the sale. Angela: [00:02:10] So if you sell something to a reader, that business will give you a cut of the amount that the purchase of that item was. Angela: [00:02:20] So it could either be a percentage, so between you know zero point one percent all the way up to, it can be pretty big like 50 to 70 percent of that the price that the person paid. Or it could be a flat fee for you bringing that customer to the brand or business. Jillian: [00:02:37] Okay. Could we start with then how you started your blog and how you got into affiliate marketing? Angela: [00:02:45] Well back in 2008 I stumbled upon a blog I didn't know. It was a blog I guess it was a website. And this woman was sharing how she was using coupons at the grocery store in the drugstores to get a lot of stuff for free. And some of the stuff she was even making money on. Angela: [00:03:02] And so I am frugal by nature, or maybe I was taught to be frugal as a child and so I was completely hooked. I was like, "This is the most amazing thing I've ever experienced." I apparently have low expectations in life and so I started doing it myself. Angela: [00:03:21] I had at that point three little little kids and I would drag them around town and we would go couponing. And it was so much fun. Starting a coupon blog Angela: [00:03:30] Then about the end of 2008, I realized I was like I think I should start a blog. I should do the same thing helping women in particularly the Pacific Northwest of the U.S. learn how to use coupons and then help them learn how to use coupons to get free stuff and cheap stuff and help their grocery budget every single week. Angela: [00:03:51] And so a friend and I started a blog. I don't know how I figured it out. I think I Googled a little bit. That became became FrugalLivingNW.com. Angela: [00:03:59] Actually it was very good timing on my part because then that's when we all realized that the market had crashed and so many women my age in their late 20s 30s 40s, they were either losing jobs, or their husbands were losing their jobs and they needed to save money quickly. And so I had a captive audience from the very beginning. Angela: [00:04:27] And so we went along for a couple of years doing that and then in about 2010 my blog was still growing. I was just hustling because I enjoyed it so much. Why you need to treat your blog as a business and not a hobby Angela: [00:04:36] My husband and I went to a blogging conference and I had this aha moment that if I were going to continue to do this, I needed to treat the blog as a business instead of a hobby. So if I wanted to make money, and really in order for my husband to be on board with me spending so much time on this website, we needed to be making money. Angela: [00:05:00] So we decided at that conference that we were going to treat the blog as a business and give it the time and energy that it required to be a business, and to make money because there's one thing that my husband and I, we both love to save money but we love to make money even more. Angela: [00:05:20] Then back in 2010-2011 that started a journey for me to figure out how I could monetize my blog and my content while still having the type of life I wanted to have with my family my friends and my community. Jillian: [00:05:35] And wait, you've got five kids. Angela: [00:05:38] Yeah. Yeah I've added some since then. No I mean I still have five. But I'm glad I started out I had three and then we added two more. So yeah I have a boatload of kids. Angela: [00:05:51] So probably for the last eight years I've been experimenting with different ways to monetize my site using different strategies. All the while I'm helping women and families live well on a budget in the Pacific Northwest. Angela: [00:06:04] So like I had this mission to help women and families live well on a budget, particularly in Oregon, Washington, Idaho but also how can I make money while doing that. Angela: [00:06:14] So if there's a way to make money with a blog I have most likely tried it. So at this point with my web site I don't work a whole lot because again I never have been able to work anywhere close to full time because again the children. Working part time as a blogger and making six figures with affiliate marketing Angela: [00:06:34] But I make my blog earn six figures and I work probably a little bit less than what most people work part time. Jillian: [00:06:41] Wow wow. OK let's dig in. So tell us your secrets. How do you do that? Angela: [00:06:50] The secret is that there are absolutely no secrets. I know that people don't want to hear that, do they, but it's really the truth. Jillian: [00:06:59] It's funny because we have another site called, Catch My Party, and we have a lot of traffic and people tell me all the time like how did you do that? And I say it is a long slog. And if there were a magic bullet you'd better believe we'd be using it. Angela: [00:07:17] Amen. There is no magic bullet. It is hustle. There is some luck involved, like if you were to look at my story you know I started my blog 10 years ago when there weren't a lot of blogs and there were a lot of women who were at home looking for a way to contribute to their household income. Jillian: [00:07:38] Right. And the economy tanked. So you were right there. Angela: [00:07:42] Yeah and there weren't a lot of people around yet. So if I were to start the same blog today it would not take off. I would not be you know, earning six figures working part time. It would be a completely different story. Jillian: [00:07:55] OK. So yes so as I was saying, you don't have any secrets but what strategies? OK so somebody is a blogger, I mean let's start with the new blogger and what you were talking about which is how to think like an affiliate marketer. Do not be scared of selling as an affiliate marketer Angela: [00:08:14] First of all my biggest piece of advice is DO NOT BE SCARED OF SELLING. Jillian: [00:08:20] Ooh. Jillian: [00:08:21] You can not be afraid to sell. Now my website is a bit unique and deal blogs, the niche that I'm in, we're a little unique in that generally I have readers coming to me ready to buy. They're like, show me the deals. Tell me what's a good deal on Amazon, tell me how I can save money in different ways. Angela: [00:08:44] So they're already ready to purchase. So there are some of your listeners that are like, my readers aren't coming to me to buy something, they're coming to me to learn something to be inspired. But in general they are OK being sold to. And they actually expect to be sold to. Angela: [00:09:05] Now there's going to be a handful of people that are going to fuss at you about selling, especially if you have not been doing it, or you're trying to do it super covertly, like maybe I'll sneak this in and they won't realize they know what's happening. Angela: [00:09:20] It's not the 30s or 40s anymore, people realize when they're being sold to. You're going to get some people are going to fuss at you at first, and that's okay. That's absolutely to be expected. I still have people fussing at me. It's usually people emailing me in all caps and I see an email in all caps I'm like. See you later. Angela: [00:09:36] I don't have time for that. But be ok with selling, and once you convince yourself that it is okay for you to make money on the work that you are producing, a whole new world opens up. So, be okay with selling. Jillian: [00:09:54] So the first is the mindset shift and I know a lot of women who struggle with this. Angela: [00:10:02] Yes. I don't know any men who sit around feeling bad that they are earning an income from their work. But for some reason women do. Jillian: [00:10:13] Yep, somehow they're losing their authenticity. I was at a conference with a woman who is also an affiliate marketer but yet she struggles with selling. Jillian: [00:10:26] That somehow she's selling out, somehow she's she's not as credible. And I said, Oh no. You're even more credible because you're trying to help people, and saying I'm making a living at the same time so I can be more helpful. Angela: [00:10:42] Exactly. And you get buy in from your family and your community when you're making money off of the work that you're doing it. And there is nothing that we can do to fix the culture that makes us kind of feel icky or like maybe we should be giving away our work. That's just how it is. Angela: [00:11:01] You just got to tell yourself it is OK. But you have to overcome what you're hearing from people and what you feel inside, it is ok to hustle and make money from the work that you're doing and actually you're serving your reader well when you point them to products and services that you know will be helpful to them. Angela: [00:11:22] There is nothing more maddening for me as a reader or a consumer of content when I see someone that I think is really awesome, she's a good writer, she's giving me really good tips and she doesn't tell me how to get the things she's talking about. Jillian: [00:11:37] Yes. Angela: [00:11:37] Or she doesn't give me a call to action. That's almost disappointing. So there is going to be a lot of readers coming to you who are looking to purchase something because you're solving a problem for them. So give them that opportunity. Angela: [00:11:53] You may as well make be making money off of it. So that's my encouragement. Just get over that whole being scared of how people will see your work if you're making money. Jillian: [00:12:04] I like that. Ok, so I'm a new blogger. And let's pick a category. I am a kids' activity blogger. Angela: [00:12:14] Ok. Jillian: [00:12:14] Ok. I am the teacher. Let's say I was a teacher and now I'm staying home with my kids. I do really fun stuff at home with them. I've documented it. What would you say to me? How can I start making affiliate money? Start adding affiliate links to your blog posts Angela: [00:12:28] Well this is probably the lamest answer on earth, but really just start doing it. You don't have to have a plan. Angela: [00:12:36] What I want you to do is the post you were writing right now, I want you to add affiliate links to it. So you're going to look at just what you're doing right now. Start with that post. Angela: [00:12:48] So look at the posts that you're writing and say what products am I talking about? What products can I talk about that would feel natural and helpful to my readers, that would help them do what I'm doing, and then add an affiliate link. Angela: [00:13:04] So there's going to be a little bit of work involved, especially if you are just starting out, where you have to figure out where can help my readers buy this product? And then you have to go sign up to be an affiliate for that for that company or that brand. Jillian: [00:13:20] So sorry I was going to say. Do you recommend that just starting with Amazon Associates? Start doing affiliate marketing with Amazon Associates Angela: [00:13:27] Always. So what I always encourage people to do is to say, where is the easiest place for your reader to purchase this product? Nine times out of ten it's going to be Amazon. Now if you go to Amazon and you're like this product is $120 here, and it's $20 at Michaels.com, well obviously you're going to promote Michael's. Angela: [00:13:48] But most likely they're going to find a pretty reasonable price and that product will be available at Amazon. So start with Amazon. Angela: [00:13:56] The other great thing about Amazon or let's say Walmart or Target or a big brand like that is that you're not going to have to also convince your reader that that place that you want them to purchase, the product at is legit. Jillian: [00:14:12] Yep. Angela: [00:14:13] So like I as your reader, I'm going to look at this item that you're telling me that will make my life better. Doing activities with my kids. If you link to Amazon, I don't have to go over the hurdle of is this place reputable how much is the shipping? How long is it going to take to get to me? Angela: [00:14:32] So that's why Amazon and the other big names are good to start with because your readers are just going to have to decide if they want the product or not. Instead of also adding, am I comfortable with the platform? Angela: [00:14:46] The thing to think about with Amazon and the other big retailers is that the percentage that you will earn off of that when you sell that item is fairly small compared to some of the other things that are out there that you can earn money off of. But that's OK. Angela: [00:15:03] So I don't want you to go into your post today, put some Amazon links in there and then expect that you're going to make tons of money off of it. You will not. It's going to be a very slow slow burn. Angela: [00:15:16] But that's OK because you're going to start with the post today, then you're going to publish it and you're gonna feel awesome about yourself because you're going to say like, I'm an affiliate marketer now. Add affiliate links to your highest trafficked blog posts Angela: [00:15:25] Then what I want you to do is to go into your Google Analytics and see what your highest traffic post is. So whatever is number one, whatever it is that means you're getting tons of traffic to it and it's going to be most strategic for you to go into that post and add more affiliate links. Angela: [00:15:43] So I want you to start with the post that you're doing today because I just want you to feel awesome about yourself, but I don't want you to go to the post that you published last week because you're not getting a ton of traffic to that. Angela: [00:15:53] I want you to go to your most trafficked post. Figure out how you can monetize it and it's not rocket science, it's super easy. Angela: [00:16:03] One tip you probably have a lot of food bloggers and even like DIY bloggers, those types of things and you're looking going man, this recipe I could add like a link to coconut milk and you do that like absolutely, that there's an opportunity to do it. Angela: [00:16:19] But one tip that I have that I use for my recipe posts, that especially get lots of traffic from Pinterest is that at the bottom of that post, I highlight a tool that was used in the creation of that recipe. Angela: [00:16:35] So let's say it's a cookie recipe, at the bottom I say, "This is my very favorite rolling pin of all time. Here are the two reasons I love it. Here's a link to it on Amazon. It'll show up to your house in two days if you have Prime." Angela: [00:16:48] So like that's one thing. If you're like, it would be awkward to add a product in here. Put it at the bottom. Or maybe even like in a box in the middle. And so it's kind of like a commercial interruption that people won't be annoyed by. Angela: [00:17:04] They're like, oh look this is helpful, she's telling me this awesome product that she likes. So that's another way to kind of get those links into your content. How people make affiliate income from MiloTree Jillian: [00:17:15] Right it's funny. So at MiloTree, we have an affiliate program and the way it works is, you sign up. We use a company called Refersion. You get your link, if you promote MiloTree and somebody clicks on it and they sign up. We initially give 30 days free. So then if that customer stays for sixty one days, so they get through two payment cycles. We pay you $20. Angela: [00:17:48] By the way, that's an amazing affiliate program. Jillian: [00:17:52] Oh thank you. And again what I have found is, the people that are most successful. so there are certain affiliates that make a lot of MiloTree sales. They are the ones that at the bottom of their posts put their favorite tools. Angela: [00:18:12] Love it. Jillian: [00:18:14] They already have it set. And I think there's even a plugin where you can add content to every post. And so all they have to do is get that plugin to show up and on every single post. Jillian: [00:18:31] And a lot of these people give blogging advice, or whatever, but it just literally lives right there. Jillian: [00:18:39] So if you're a recipe blogger and you have these are my five favorite tools you can keep recycling that in multiple posts. Use a WordPress plugin to swap out your affiliate links in your blog posts Angela: [00:18:50] Absolutely. You can put it like use a plugin for that. The beauty of the plugins is that you can swap things out. So let's say you have your five favorite tools, like you suggested which I love. But you know that there's a big affiliate promotion coming up. Angela: [00:19:09] I know that a lot of DIY and food bloggers and homemaking bloggers they promote with Ultimate Bundles that's really popular and lucrative could be potentially lucrative affiliate program. Angela: [00:19:21] You can swap the coding out for the period of that launch because they do their bundles for I think it's like 5 to 10 days. That's a promotional period you can swap the coding out in that plugin for that period of time to promote just that Ultimate Bundle. Angela: [00:19:40] And so then all the posts that you have the coding in, it switches out. And then when the launch is over you don't have to update each post you're just updating the plugin Angela: [00:19:52] And another thing you can do is like from my blog I have several different types of content that I post so I don't just do deals. I also do fashion and I do some recipes. Angela: [00:20:05] So then you could put in templates when you create a new recipe you can have a recipe template that has the kitchen tools at the bottom of it, and then if I do a fashion post then that could have a different template so that you are speaking directly to the type of reader that's coming to your site. Jillian: [00:20:23] And you don't have to always reinvent the wheel. Angela: [00:20:28] No, do the same thing. There's this idea, someone calls spotlight syndrome where some bloggers think that all of my readers consume all of my content, they read every single word and they sit at home waiting for me to publish. Angela: [00:20:46] The reality is that ain't true. There's a lot there's probably a small number of people who are ravenous about you. But if I look at my site I get a ton of traffic from Pinterest, so I can have the very same tools or affiliate links and every single one of my recipe posts because from Pinterest I know that most of my Pinterest traffic is coming to my recipes that were created years ago. Angela: [00:21:13] I haven't written a recipe post in like 3 years but I still get tons of traffic from those older posts. I can be promoting exactly the same affiliate programs or links in all of those posts and they will never know. They're never going to be like, "Why does she keep talking about this rolling pin? They don't care." Jillian: [00:21:31] Right. Yes I think that that is such an important idea that you brought up, which is people are not obsessed with you. We're all obsessed with ourselves. Angela: [00:21:45] So I try to tell our teenage daughter that all the time. Jillian: [00:21:49] I know that's a really good lesson. It kind of takes the pressure off. Angela: [00:21:57] Absolutely. It really does. And for those of us who've been blogging a really long time, there was an obsession with bloggers that I experience probably 5 to 10 years ago, where people did care about what I was producing and they were reading everything. Angela: [00:22:15] But it's not like that anymore. There are so many places to consume content your readers, apart from your mom and your best friend, really don't care that much. Jillian: [00:22:27] Yes. Angela: [00:22:28] Which, like you said gives you a lot of freedom to go hustle and make some money off of those posts. Jillian: [00:22:33] Yes. Now can you explain cookies? How do cookies work in affiliate marketing? Angela: [00:22:37] Yes. So what happens is when you put an affiliate link into your post and a reader clicks on that link it sets what we call a cookie on their device. Angela: [00:22:50] And that means that for affiliate marketing if that clicker makes a purchase within a certain period of time it depends on the program. So for Amazon I believe it's like 24 hours and Nordstrom it's going to be a little bit longer. Angela: [00:23:09] And then there's some affiliate programs that have what they call forever cookies which means if they click on that link and they purchase through after clicking on your link on that same device you get credit for that purchase. Angela: [00:23:23] So if that reader makes a purchase within the cookie duration period then you will make the commission or the referral fee off of that purchase. Angela: [00:23:33] Now here here's the thing, which I think is so interesting with Amazon right the percent you know what the percentage is? They don't really tell you what it is, right? Angela: [00:23:44] It depends. Amazon is just like Facebook and Google. It's kind of like I don't really know what's going on over there, but I'm going to keep my mouth shut and enjoy the money they send me. Jillian: [00:23:55] Yes. Angela: [00:23:56] You don't want to rock the boat with Amazon, but it depends on the item that the person purchases with Amazon how much percentage you have and then different associates if they're called Amazon Associates make different percentages. So the percentage that I might make in my program is going to be different than yours, Jillian. Angela: [00:24:19] Now the great thing about Amazon as well as other programs out there, is that when someone clicks the link for the rolling pin, they don't have to purchase the rolling pin. If they purchased diapers and a DVD and a pair of shoes, I still make the affiliate commission off of that sale. Angela: [00:24:35] So when you're thinking about Amazon and Walmart and Target like places that have lots of different products, your strategy is a little bit different. You want to entice them to click, because then you know especially with Amazon, I just want to set the cookie. Angela: [00:24:52] So that if they purchased something else before they click someone else's affiliate link, because if they click someone else's affiliate link, now that affiliate or that associate gets credit for the purchase. I'm going to make money off of whatever they buy. Angela: [00:25:07] So you are also thinking like this Amazon product, I want to make it interesting. I'm going to talk about it in a way that makes them want to go check it out. I'm not talking about clickbait. I hate clickbait but sometimes I put things in there just because I want them to click over or so that I earn the right to make the affiliate commission off of their purchase for the next 24 hours. Jillian: [00:25:30] And then you hope that they buy a TV. Angela: [00:25:34] Yes. Well actually the percentage on TVs is horrible. You want them to buy clothing. Clothing is good clothing is so good. Angela: [00:25:46] So that's the other thing, is to look inside these programs especially the bigger stores that have lots of different items to see which categories bring you the best commission rate so that you know. Angela: [00:26:00] So you can be more strategic with which products that you are promoting. So if you go and say I love this particular item, but then you go to Amazon, you're like oh they don't even give a commission on that, well you might not want to spend a whole lot of time on that review post. Angela: [00:26:18] But if you're like I really am excited about it, put that in there. But then maybe add some items that could accompany that product, or just like make it such amazing copy that people like I need to go check this TV out and then you cross our fingers that they're going to buy syrup while they're there. Jillian: [00:26:35] So how do you find out what categories in Amazon give you the best affiliate fee? Angela: [00:26:42] That's in the associates dashboard you can click around. I mean I could figure it out for you but it's it's going to be listed in there. It's not a secret. Angela: [00:26:53] The difference is is that I know that different associates get different rates and it's not like you can email someone at Amazon and say can you please review my account and see if you can increase my rate? Angela: [00:27:04] Like that's not happening with Amazon that you could do that with some other retailers like negotiate higher rates. Jillian: [00:27:10] Really. OK. You can negotiate better affiliate rates with smaller companies Angela: [00:27:11] Sure. Yes especially the smaller company the higher chance that you have that if you were to contact that affiliate manager and say, hey look at I want you to see the business that I'm bringing you and you could say like I have this one amazing post that is doing so well on Pinterest, and it's converting really well, could you give me a higher percentag? Angela: [00:27:37] I know that that's happened for some people. I'm kind of lazy so I don't like emailing. So I haven't really pursued that so much. Jillian: [00:27:45] And you have five children. Yes. Angela: [00:27:47] Yes, I've got some stuff going on over here. Jillian: [00:27:50] So here's a question then explain. So OK so I should sign up for Amazon Associates. Now what other programs do you recommend I sign up or for, example ShareaSale. What is ShareASale and how does it work? Angela: [00:28:02] Yes. How it works. And this is a little bit confusing to people. You've got Amazon. They kind of run their empire over there. But with most retailers or brands or businesses that have affiliate programs they are going to contract with what we can call affiliate companies. Angela: [00:28:21] So you talked about shareasale so in shareasale they're kind of like a brokerage so you can sign up for shareasale and then, you're not promoting shareasale. You're promoting products or retailers that have contracted with share sale. Angela: [00:28:38] So you are using ShareASale's platform to pull links to view reporting. And they are the ones that pay you. But businesses work withShareASale to be like their middleman. Angela: [00:28:49] So if you go and say I want to promote this particular product you've got to figure out which company they're contracting with. Or they run their own program. You're going to cross your fingers that they're contracting with a company because it makes your life so much easier. Angela: [00:29:03] So then you figure out what company they are working with and you apply to that company. So that would be ShareASale, Commission Junction, LinkShare, there's a handful, Impact Radius, there's a handful of companies out there that do this type of work. So you apply to the company. Jillian: [00:29:22] So not to ShareASale', right? You're applying to the company? Angela: [00:29:25] Well it's easiest if you first get into ShareASale, which anyone can get into ShareASale, unless you're doing something shady. But then it makes it easier for when you apply for that particular brand then you're already in the system. Angela: [00:29:41] So let's use Nordstrom as an example because anniversary sales coming up, and I cannot wait to make money from Nordstrom. So they contract with LinkShare. So I join LinkShare and then I go into LinkShare and I apply to run with Nordstrom. How to promote affiliate links from Norstrom Angela: [00:29:59] So then I have to wait for Nordstrom to approve me. Once I'm approved by Nordstrom inside LinkShare, then I can start pulling links. That is easiest way, that's how you work. Angela: [00:30:12] So if you go to a web site and you say I want to promote their products. Scroll down to the very bottom of the page. And usually in the footer if they have an affiliate program there's going to be a tiny little button that says affiliate, or work with us, network with us, or like referrals or something like that click that. Angela: [00:30:30] And it's going to tell you what company that they're working under. And then you can apply. So some companies or retailers will approve you immediately. It's not usually the big ones they want to manually approve you. Angela: [00:30:44] So most of them will apply inside shareasale, LinkShare, Commission Junction, and then you will wait a period of time, it's usually between like a handful of minutes to sometimes weeks to wait for them to either approve or deny you. Angela: [00:30:59] So once you're approved, then inside the affiliate platform you'll be able to pull links. Usually there's going to be banners there. So image ads that you can use in your posts. They're also going to oftentimes post deals or offers or promotions that they're running so you can get certain links to that. Angela: [00:31:18] Also you're going to be able to deep link to specific products. So for instance if I'm promoting an item that's in the Nordstrom Anniversary Sale, I don't want to send my readers to the home page at Nordstrom. They will not buy. You've got to remove as many obstacles as possible to them continuing to make their purchase. Angela: [00:31:40] So I will go in. I will go inside LinkShare into their deep linking tool, and then link to that specific pair of shoes that I want my readers to buy. So that way when they click a link on my web site they go directly to the shoes at Nordstrom. They don't have to do any extra work. Jillian: [00:31:59] That's great. So for us, tell me if I'm doing it right. On MiloTree, if you scroll down to the bottom it says "affiliate." You click it, you end up applying to our program which is run by a company called Refersion. And then I see the new applicants and I personally will approve them or not, depending on if I think they're spammy. Jillian: [00:32:22] I want real people who are promoting our product and then they can get into the dashboard, their own dashboard, with their own links to promote MiloTree. Angela: [00:32:33] Exactly. And the approval process for most brands really is to make sure that you're not spammy, that you're not just like doing random links that you're not trying to trick people into going to that website to buy something and also that the content aligns with the brand. Angela: [00:32:53] Because you know like in your case, you don't want just any one promoting your brand because what's going to happen is as you are strategically realizing is that if the link is placed on a site that doesn't make sense, you as the owner of MiloTree, you're going to get requests for returns you're going to get hassles involved. So that's why brands and businesses want to manually approve you. Angela: [00:33:20] So usually when you're applying they will have a box it says tell your promotion strategy. And that's just a piece of information that you can include to try to get them to be excited about working with you. Angela: [00:33:35] Oftentimes I leave that box blank because I'm like obviously this is why I want to promote you, I don't have time to tell you. Angela: [00:33:43] But sometimes because a brand will see my site as a deal blog and they're like, I don't know if your readers are going to convert well, I don't know if it's going to water down my brand. Angela: [00:33:54] I might go in and say like for instance for Nordstrom sales, I want to heavily promote the anniversary sale. My readers are really excited to get high quality brands at affordable prices and something like that. Angela: [00:34:12] Because oftentimes big brands and businesses look at your site for about two seconds and decide if they should approve you or not. So if you add some information in there if you're like I feel like they might not want to work with me. If you include that information, then they might take some extra time to look at your site. Spammy practices in affiliate marketing Jillian: [00:34:30] Can we talk about then spammy practices and this whole idea of people trying to get the last click? And how people abuse the system? Angela: [00:34:44] Yes. I would say that your affiliate links are going to convert the best when you are being honest, you're being transparent, and you're not just trying to get the click. Angela: [00:35:02] Also that spammy practice really doesn't result in sales. You know the more I experiment a lot and I don't think I've ever crossed the line to click bait but I have experimented with language that I use around my links. Angela: [00:35:18] And the more authentic I am, the more information that I give upfront in my posts, or what I post on Facebook or something, the more likely it is that my reader that that's going to convert. Angela: [00:35:30] So I find I don't like the whole, like check this item out, like check the new thing out that I love so much. Well yeah. You just set a cookie but your reader going to be frustrated. Angela: [00:35:42] I know for me as a reader, when I do that, I click over I'm like oh you just showed me a pair of underwear. Why did that happen? And that turns me off. Angela: [00:35:50] So I find the more information that I as a content creator, I give my reader in the post in a Facebook post wherever, it is answering their questions before they get over there. Angela: [00:36:05] I'm probably going to get less clicks than if I were to try some click baity type of stuff but I'm going to sell more when I'm being the most helpful in the content that I create. Angela: [00:36:15] So if I'm promoting a product that maybe people haven't had exposure to before, I try to answer all the questions that they may have about it before I send them over there. Angela: [00:36:26] Now that doesn't mean my link is at the very bottom of the post. I'm putting links through out, so it's easy for people to click on so they so they don't have to scroll to the bottom to figure out where they're going, but my post is going to be as helpful as possible. Angela: [00:36:39] And again my clicks might be less, I might not have as many clicks. I don't give a rip about clicks unless of course I'm setting the cookie on Amazon. But I want to sell that thing. So I want them to go over there and purchase. That's when I have success. Jillian: [00:36:54] Right. And it's also, it's your reputation on the line. Angela: [00:36:58] Absolutely. If my Facebook page feed is filled with what I perceived to be kind of click baity, maybe it's not like being super slimy or anything, but like not especially helpful. I'm going to unfollow or unlike that page. Angela: [00:37:14] So again I find the more information I put into those posts. With that content, the more my readers trust me as a place to find valuable and helpful information and then they stick around and want to buy from me. Jillian: [00:37:29] Right. I get that. Now here's a question, so how do you disclose? Can we talk about disclosure? FTC disclosures in affiliate marketing -- what you need to know Angela: [00:37:35] Yes. First of all, don't be scared of disclosure. I'm in some Facebook groups with bloggers at varying levels and varying niches, and the fear that some bloggers have about the FTC rules is almost humorous to me. Angela: [00:37:53] So I kind of roll, like it does not have to be complicated. So on my website every single one of my posts has an affiliate disclosure at the top. It is a plugin that shows up right underneath my title and it goes to every single one of my posts. Angela: [00:38:12] I do that in particular because Jillian, there's not a single post on my website that does not have an affiliate link. If I don't have an affiliate link in a post, I'm not doing my job right now. Angela: [00:38:24] I realize that that's not every single blogger but I want you to be monetizing your post adding affiliate links into old content. A plugin with your affiliate disclosure works really well. Angela: [00:38:40] So something very simple like, this post may contain affiliate links which means I make a small commission when you make a purchase you can read my full disclosure here, and that links to your disclosure or your disclaimer page where you say more of the specific language. So that's at the top of every single one of my posts. I'm good. Angela: [00:39:04] When I link to that post from Facebook or Instagram or Pinterest. I don't disclose on that post because when they are actually making the purchase or clicking, the disclosure is there. Angela: [00:39:18] So if I'm on Facebook, and I say check out this recipe I just created, I don't have to disclose that there's affiliate links in that post because it's disclosed on the blog. Jillian: [00:39:28] Because they're going to your blog. Angela: [00:39:30] Because they're going to the blog. And that's where they click the link. If I am on Facebook and I am putting it on my page, or in one of my public groups, I have a number of groups that I run that are about specific areas like fashion and deals and those types of things. Angela: [00:39:48] In there, if I'm using an affiliate link in that post. I disclose there so I will say something simply like this is an affiliate link. I explain what affiliate link means. Angela: [00:40:03] Because some people would do like #affiliatelink or #aff. Jillian: [00:40:07] Can you go like #affil? Angela: [00:40:11] Here's the deal is that no regular person knows what that means, and I think the spirit of the FTC, and I'm not an expert, I'm not a lawyer whatever but I think the spirit of it the FTC rules is that a regular person will not know that it's an affiliate link. Jillian: [00:40:28] OK. Angela: [00:40:28] Regular people don't even know what the word affiliate means. Jillian: [00:40:31] Right. Angela: [00:40:31] So you could say referral link. I think that's kind of clear you could say #ad. I don't know, maybe. Ad to me means that I'm being paid to produce that content. Not that I make money when you click the link. Angela: [00:40:43] So I put little arrows and say this is an affiliate link which means I make a small commission if you make a purchase. Jillian: [00:40:50] You'd write that whole thing out in a Facebook post? Angela: [00:40:54] Absolutely I put it in little parentheses and then I move on. Now sometimes it put that right next to the affiliate link. Angela: [00:41:01] Here's the cool thing about when you add that little affiliate link portion right after that links I copy the URL spacebar put an affiliate link. I make a little bit of money. It shortens the affiliate link. Because sometimes affiliate links, well most of the time, they're long and ugly and it's confusing because it doesn't say Walmart.com. It has all these weird letters that is confusing to the reader so it shortens that so they don't see this like seven line long URL. Angela: [00:41:33] Ok so I will put that in now with Amazon, this is so important. You can't say "this is an affiliate link which means that I make a little bit of money when you click it" because Amazon views that as enticing people to to click the link. Jillian: [00:41:55] Okay. Angela: [00:41:55] You can't entice people to click the link so we've been doing this on my Facebook page forever and ever and ever amen. And now Amazon is coming out saying that that encourages people to click your link and make the purchase. Angela: [00:42:08] So what you're supposed to say with Amazon, it's very short. It's something like, I am a participant in Amazon Associates and I earn money that way. They have this language I can give it to you that you can post later. Jillian: [00:42:25] Yes, I'll put it in the show notes. Angela: [00:42:26] I put that in every single one of my Amazon posts. I am so not interested in making them mad. I will put whatever language they want me to put in that post. Angela: [00:42:41] And it also communicates to the reader who is clicking that link. They then understand the relationship that I have with Amazon, and I know that people are sometimes worried about people not clicking the link because like, oh she's trying to make money off of it. Angela: [00:42:59] Most people understand that you're making money off of this. They're just happy that they know and honestly most people aren't reading anyways. Angela: [00:43:07] So I disclose on every where that affiliate link actually lives disclose it. Jillian: [00:43:16] Got it. Angela: [00:43:16] And then you're good. That's all you have to do. Jillian: [00:43:18] So do you have like on your main Facebook page ,if people go there. Can they see you doing this? Where can somebody see you? Angela: [00:43:27] If you go to Facebook.com/FrugalLivingNW you can see what we're posting on Facebook, and probably one or two times a day we will post a direct link to Amazon because we know that that converts well for us. Angela: [00:43:47] Now I know there are some bloggers who run very successful Facebook pages and they link to Amazon and it does not convert. But again my readers are ready to get a deal. And so that works well for us. Angela: [00:44:00] If you go to my public Facebook groups, we drop affiliate links inside of and we disclose that. And that works really well for us. But again those people have self selected, saying I want to buy stuff off of Amazon. And so that works really well for us. Jillian: [00:44:21] So of the social networks, which for you is the most successful at converting affiliate sales? Can you talk through Facebook or about Pinterest? Jillian: [00:44:35] Can you link a product, let's say it's an Etsy product and Etsy has an affiliate program. Can I just take an image from Etsy, put my affiliate link in the link to that pin and make money? Angela: [00:44:52] Ok, you just opened a huge can of worms. So first there is when we start diving deep into affiliate marketing lots of people have lots of opinions. Can you add Etsy affiliate links on Pinterest? Angela: [00:45:06] So we'll start with the image thing. Can you pull an image off of let's say Etsy, and put an affiliate link there? Probably not Etsy. I wouldn't do that on Pinterest. Angela: [00:45:17] So then people say, can I use a product image from Amazon. Some people who are have very strong opinions on that. They're very scared of Amazon shutting them down. I am more laid back about that type of thing. Angela: [00:45:34] Now Pinterest has some pretty specific rules when it comes to affiliate market, like using affiliate links on Pinterest. And it changes all the time. Jillian: [00:45:43] Yes. Angela: [00:45:44] And honestly I have not even started direct linking or using direct affiliate links on Pinterest. Jillian: [00:45:52] OK. Angela: [00:45:53] And part of that is because a Pinterest audience isn't necessarily ready to buy. They are ready to be inspired. Angela: [00:46:02] So I don't know how much time, how profitable it is to spend a bunch of time dropping affiliate links in Pinterest. I would much rather your readers and for me, to create amazing content on my web site that has affiliate links in it and then promote those posts on Pinterest. Angela: [00:46:24] And so what I will say is you publish a post today and when we publish a post today, we're publishing for our audience the people who love us who subscribe to our emails. That's what they're getting today, you're thinking about that reader. Angela: [00:46:41] In one year the reader to that post is probably not going to be one of your ravenous tribe members. It's most likely going to be someone from Google or Pinterest. Angela: [00:46:52] So then what I would say is if you see a post that was published a while ago, that's getting a lot of traffic from Pinterest or even Google, or some from Google search. What I would suggest you go into that post and say now my reader of this post is no longer a ravenous fan. It is a very casual unattached Pinterest person. How can I get them to my affiliate links? Angela: [00:47:18] So what I might say is if you're getting a ton of traffic from Pinterest on a DIY or a recipe post, or something, and you have the first 700 words of that post is a story about your life and you're getting lots of traffic to it but not making a lot of money. It's probably because people are clicking off of that post because your story is so long. Angela: [00:47:43] I'm not saying that you shouldn't write stories, but I know as a Pinterest user, I'm like get me to the recipe. I don't care about your dog. Jillian: [00:47:52] Yes yes. I am with you. How to optimize your popular posts for affiliate marketing Angela: [00:47:53] If you had this post is getting thousands of pages or even hundreds of page views. But it's like a lot more than every other post on your site. You might want to edit that story to get people to the content they're looking for as quickly as possible to increase the chance that they are going to click on your affiliate link. Angela: [00:48:11] So you could even, oh my goodness, I thought of this the other day. You could put a little bit of code in the post and you can Google this, it's easy to do to say like "jump to the recipe." Angela: [00:48:21] So they click that link inside, like at the top of the post. And then they skip the story if you want to keep the story in there so that they go directly to the recipe where you have affiliate links. Angela: [00:48:32] That would be a way to really serve that Pinterest user. Get them on your site longer and increase the chance that they are going to click on your link. Jillian: [00:48:40] I love that. I love that because you are segregating your readers your visitors, those that are the diehard visitors who know your five children, know the names of your dog, care about your your whole home redesign, versus the people who go to Pinterest. Jillian: [00:49:06] You know Pinterest changed the game because you remember back in the day when you followed certain bloggers and people would come to the homepage of your blog and go explore through it and then Pinterest came and you just hop scotch in and out. Angela: [00:49:22] Exactly. And so it's a really good idea to modify your content if you're getting the hop scotchers from Pinterest. Make it really easy for them to find what they're looking for and also to get their eyes on your affiliate links. Angela: [00:49:38] You already served your ravenous audience with this amazing blog post. Those people probably aren't going to read it again. They're finished with that. They've moved on to your new content. Angela: [00:49:47] So now maximize those posts for the people who are at your site for about 2 seconds before they figure out if it's going to be helpful to their immediate need or not. Jillian: [00:49:57] I like that. Ok one thing, SEO, I looked at your site and in your blog posts you will put specifics in the titles. You're putting product names and my assumption is that people are Googling for that stuff? What is your strategy there? Angela: [00:50:21] First of all, I don't have a lot of strategy when it comes to SEO. Jillian: [00:50:24] Okay. Angela: [00:50:26] I hope that I am like demonstrating that you can make money off of your blog and not care about a lot of things. So I don't really think a whole lot about Google. Angela: [00:50:35] The things that you are looking at are posts about Amazon deals that are happening today. So I have a contributor, she figures out what amazing deals are available on Amazon and we post about that. Angela: [00:50:49] Those posts strategically are for my tribe. The people who are checking out my site every day, they are reading my daily email because they get an email from me every single day they want that I mean that's amazing and they are looking to buy stuff. That content is going to be dead in a couple of days. Angela: [00:51:09] So there are some posts that I'm promoting products that Google does pick up and basically those posts are mostly getting spam comments. So like people trying to catch some of my juice from Google so I often look and go oh this post about this random I don't know electric shaver must be doing well on Google because I'm getting a bunch of spam comments. Angela: [00:51:33] So what I try to do with my titles is just be as helpful as possible meaning that I want people who are reading the emails because they get it in an RSS feed. I mean can you even believe that I'm still doing RSS emails. I do other emails too. Angela: [00:51:46] What I mean that demonstrates like deal blogs. There's people who just want to tell me what you posted today and I can quickly go through it. I want that title to be as helpful as possible so they click on it and then go check out those deals. Jillian: [00:52:02] Explain what that means that you do an RSS email everyday. Angela: [00:52:06] An RSS email is instead of me going into my email program and writing an email and sending it myself, it pulls it automatically from my blog. So every 24 hours a certain list of subscribers will get the last 24 hours worth the posts that I published in their email so then they can click the different posts and be taken just like if they're interested in that. Angela: [00:52:37] You can do an RSS email which means every time you publish a certain type of post, so like every time I publish a Safeway post because that's a popular grocery store in the Northwest then that list of people who subscribe to that RSS feed will get that Safeway post. Angela: [00:52:57] So it's kind of the lazy way but also sometimes strategic way to get those posts into people's email. So what I will say is that they don't convert super well. And that's why most bloggers should move away from RSS, because the RSS is just like hey a new post is published. Here is a link to it. Angela: [00:53:20] There's nothing personal involved. So it requires that reader who gets the RSS email in their inbox to go "that title is intriguing. I'm going to click on it." Angela: [00:53:29] So it really works well if you publish tons of content like I'm are publishing between five and seven posts a day on my website. So that serves that well, and it also helps me because then I don't have to email everyone everyday because I don't do anything every day I meet I'm not that disciplined. Angela: [00:53:50] And so that works well for me. For like 98 percent of the people listening to this podcast, do not do RSS emails please. Can you add affiliate links to email newsletters? Jillian: [00:53:58] OK. What is  the deal with putting affiliate links in newsletters? Is it okay? Doesn't MailChimp say you can't do that? Angela: [00:54:12] Oh I certainly hope not. I've never used MailChimp so I don't know what their rules are. There are some email marketing services that do have rules about affiliate links. If you're running into that then you need to find a new email provider because you should be able to use affiliate links. Angela: [00:54:39] One thing though is, you can not please listen to this everyone. You cannot put an affiliate an Amazon affiliate links in an email, they will shut you down so fast. Jillian: [00:54:51] Can you go through that? Angela: [00:54:52] Yes this is one of the biggest rules I see people breaking. I see giant bloggers making like 7 figures doing this. According to Amazon's policies, you cannot put one of their affiliate links in an email. You also cannot put your affiliate link in a PDF or ebook. You cannot do that. Angela: [00:55:18] And so the way to think about it is it's really easy to figure out if you can or can't do it. Amazon has to be able to have a person view that link on the internet. They can't see the link in your ebook. They don't know where it's coming from. They can't see it from their email. Angela: [00:55:34] They also can't see it in a closed Facebook group or a private Facebook group. If you're going to use Amazon affiliate links in a Facebook group that group needs to be public. Jillian: [00:55:46] Ooh. Yes. So your Facebook groups are public? Angela: [00:55:51] My Facebook groups that I use an Amazon affiliate links in are public. Which means that any person can see where it's coming from. Now that rule does not apply to other affiliate programs. Angela: [00:56:01] I think people get confused, they hear I can't use an affiliate link from Amazon in email so they don't use any affiliate links in emails. No, it's just Amazon. So you can put an affiliate link to... All I'm thinking about right now is Nordstrom. I'm so excited. Angela: [00:56:18] You can put an affiliate link for Nordstrom or for Michael's or for Target, that's ok as long as you disclose at the top of your email. This email contains affiliate links, which means I make a small commission when you click and make a purchase, and you can add at no additional cost to you if you'd like. Angela: [00:56:37] So if you want to promote an Amazon product in your email the best way to do it, it's kind of clunky I'm sorry, is to link to a page on your web site where you're talking about that product so you could review it or something like that. Angela: [00:57:01] Or you could link to your Facebook page where you have the affiliate link there. Does that make sense? Jillian: [00:57:08] So go over that again. Angela: [00:57:10] If you want to promote and affiliate Amazon product and make money off of it in your email, you have to get them to a place on the web where that affiliate link in public. Angela: [00:57:23] That could be on your website where you could you could even do a page that has like. Here's the instant pot that I love and here's the link, like two lines then that affiliate link lives there. Angela: [00:57:33] Or you could link to your Facebook page where you're talking about the Instant Pot. Jillian: [00:57:38] Got it. Angela: [00:57:40] Or you can put an affiliate link, this is where it gets kind of funky with Amazon, if you have an influencer page you can use your affiliate link in your email that goes to your influencer page. Angela: [00:57:52] Because they're not making the purchase from the email. They're going to your influencer page, and then making making the purchase from there. Influencer pages should be available to all associates as of right now. What is an Amazon Affiliate Influencer Page? Jillian: [00:58:04] Explain what that is. Angela: [00:58:06] So it looks like a storefront where you go to this page it's your Amazon influencer page and it has products that you love. So you know you could be like here's the things that I love from my website, and things that we use. Angela: [00:58:19] And all of those items are there and then, so you can link to that page from your email. I have just started out, it's kind of fairly new. I'm not sure how well that's converting. Angela: [00:58:33] But it is one way to link use an affiliate link inside your emails. That's really the only way that you can do it in a way that isn't clunky for your email reader. So give it a shot. I'm not sure how it's going to pan out. Jillian: [00:58:49] I love this. I love this. All right so Angela if you are a a new blogger and they've just listened to this podcast, and it feels kind of overwhelming let's say what piece of advice would you have from the start? Jillian: [00:59:13] So sign up for Amazon Associates. Again you're not going to get rich, you're going to see stuff on Pinterest and Google that says like I went from zero to twenty two thousand dollars a month selling Amazon. No you're not. I don't know who those people are. Angela: [00:59:29] I sell so much stuff over Christmas and I don't make $22,000 a month. It's hard work and you're putting lots of links in. But sign up for Amazon and in a post just get a link in there. Try to figure out the language that you're comfortable with to get people interested in clicking that link. Angela: [00:59:51] And again part of that's going to be you getting over your fear of selling, feeling like you're not being authentic because again for some reason, the only way a woman can be authentic is if she is giving herself away for free. Jillian: [01:00:02] I love that. Yeah yeah. Angela: [01:00:04] Oh girl, make some money off of this. You deserve to make cash. So start putting links in there. So any content that you create from now on, tell yourself, I'm going to include an affiliate link. I have to do this. And then when you feel good about it again like I said before like you feel awesome. Angela: [01:00:23] Then start working on past content and then work say like I'm going to do one post a week of past content for the next 10 weeks. Angela: [01:00:34] You do not have to go down to like your 60th most trafficked post. You're not going to make money off of that. Like at least I look at my Google Analytics I'm like I had 22 people visit this page that's not worth my time. Jillian: [01:00:46] Yes. Angela: [01:00:46] But start working on adding links. And then when you write your emails what I want you to do is I want you to sell something in every single email which sounds like you've got to be kidding me. Angela: [01:01:01] But what that really means is I want you to tell them in each email of a product you love. Figure out how you can do that. I see tons of bloggers who don't even incorporate it into their into the text of their email. They just put it as like an aside at the bottom. Angela: [01:01:22] Kind of like a newspaper we have different sections the section at the bottom, it can be the thing I'm loving this week, and like make it an affiliate. Angela: [01:01:33] Now again you can't put in an Amazon affiliate link in there. So make it Walmart, make it Target, make it something that you can put the email the affiliate link in there. Why you need to start training your readers to click on your affliliate links Angela: [01:01:45] It's not because I think you're going to sell a bunch of stuff right off the bat. It's because I need you to start training your readers to click. Angela: [01:01:55] Training your readers to expect that selling is a part of how you do your job. Then, when you have a big affiliate promotion that comes up you want to promote Ultimate Bundles. There's a big offer for a product that you love, and it's super on sale at something like that where you want to hit it hard and try to make money off of this. They are already accustomed to clicking your links and buying stuff or being ok with you talking about buying stuff. Angela: [01:02:28] So like if you have if you're sending out an email that is all text and there's no click. How do you expect those people when something awesome comes up that you want to promote that they're willing to click you haven't trained them to click out of your emails. Jillian: [01:02:43] Yes. Also, I think about it this way, which is when I subscribe to somebody's email list and they share what they're loving. What product they're loving, it gives me insight into them. And what kind of person they like. What what kind of cleaner does she like or what kind of jewelry is she excited about. Jillian: [01:03:06] It's a it's another side, when you're sharing something really it's like sharing a side of you. Angela: [01:03:13] Exactly. And women in particular want to know what they should buy next. What should they discover next. What should they be trying out. And we all are looking for input. So give them what they might. Angela: [01:03:28] So here's an example. I found these most amazing shoes on Amazon. These shoes are fourteen dollars. I don't know what is going on. They are cute they're super comfortable. I cannot wait to promote those shoes and my readers are going to go bonkers over these shoes because they're affordable, they're cute, and I'm going to tell them why they're so awesome. Angela: [01:03:51] So just figure out something that you love and then figure out how you can communicate your love for that product in various different ways, and just try it out and I promise you that most of your readers are going to think it's fabulous. Angela: [01:04:07] You will have readers who fuss at you, 100 percent. People say I can't believe you're selling to me. I'm so offended. I mean the things that people get offended about like I'm selling you shoes and you're offended. Angela: [01:04:20] That's when you're going to do some self talk. Those people, they're a little off. I don't reply to those emails. If someone fusses me about selling, I just delete it. And that's how I personally roll as you can tell I'm kind of like I don't have time for that business. Angela: [01:04:39] And you can choose to reply as long as the e-mail you send, you are seeing an ROI, you're seeing a return on investment. So if you're going to spend an hour and a half writing back to a woman who's mad that you're selling a pair of shoes you better be making money off of that hour and a half of that response that you give to her. Oh wait you're never going to make money off of it. It's not worth your time. Jillian: [01:05:00] I love it. All right Angela this has been terrific. Like so nuts and bolts, which is what I love. So people want to reach out to you to see your deals and learn more about affiliate marketing. How can they do that? Angela: [01:05:17] Well if you would like to learn kind of how I sell you can go to FrugallivingNW.com and you can see how we structure our blog posts how we talk about products. Angela: [01:05:29] Go to my Facebook page which is Facebook.com/frugallivingNW, you can see how we are promoting things on Amazon. How we're doing Facebook Lives to sell things. Angela: [01:05:40] I think it's helpful to watch people who are good at selling and comfortable with it, to see the tactics that they're using so you can figure out what's going to work for you. Angela: [01:05:49] So you can see kind of our lab on how we sell things. But also I'm starting something new it's called Your Affiliate Marketing Mentor. And that's going to be a web site and a podcast where I am talking the nuts and bolts and going deep into affiliate marketing. Angela: [01:06:09] So my goal is to help bloggers, content creators, and social media influencers make more money on the work that they are already doing. Angela: [01:06:19] We're also starting a new Facebook group that will kind of deep dive even more into affiliate marketing and you can find us there at youraffiliatemarketingmentor.com/Facebook to join that group. Jillian: [01:06:34] Angela thank you so much for being on the show. Angela: [01:06:37] This is super fun. Thank you so much. MiloTree is the best WordPress plugin to grow your blog Jillian: [01:06:40] Are you trying to grow your social media followers and email subscribers? Well if you've got two minutes, I've got a product for you. It's MiloTree! Jillian: [01:06:49] MiloTree is a smart, pop-up slider that you install on your site, and it pops up and asks visitors to follow you on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, Pinterest or subscribe to your list. Jillian: [01:07:04] It takes two minutes to install. We offer a WordPress plugin or a simple line of code, and it's Google-friendly on mobile and desktop. Jillian: [01:07:14] So we know where your traffic is coming from. We show a Google friendly pop-up on desktop and a smaller Google-friendly pop up on mobile. Check it out. Sign up for MiloTree now and get your first 30 DAYS FREE!

In this Part 2 interview with Monica Froese from the blog, Redefining Mom, we delve into the easiest ways to make money as a blogger. If you're trying to monetize your blog quickly, this episode is for you! Monica shares why Pinterest is the best platform for affiliate income and why you should invest in Promoted Pins. Plus we talk about how to pivot your business as you grow, and why you shouldn't be scared to do it! Resources: Redefining Mom Moolah Marketing ConvertKit Your Modern Family MiloTree *Some of these links may be affiliate links and I might make a small commission at no cost to you if you click. Transcript – The Easiest Ways to Make Money as a Blogger with Monica Froese (Part 2) Host: [00:00:03] Welcome to The Blogger Genius Podcast brought to you by MiloTree. Here's your host, Jillian Leslie. Jillian: [00:00:10] Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Blogger Genius podcast. I am here with Part 2 of my interview with Monica Froese. I don't know if you remember, but we left off with what to do if you've got six months and you need to make money and your husband isn't understanding what you're doing. So without further ado, here is Part 2 of my interview. Jillian: [00:00:35] Let's say I've done this and I've got a six month runway to make a business, to prove to my husband that this isn't just a pipe dream. Now what what are some of the easiest ways to start bringing income in? Easy ways to start making money as a blogger Jillian: [00:00:51] I put up a blog right. I get that up and running. Now I have no people. I don't even know what I'm doing. Where can I quickly make money? Monica: [00:01:01] The quickest wins I've ever had online came from Pinterest and affiliate marketing, these are the two quick wins. Especially affiliate marketing with Pinterest. You know they had cut it off for a while. They didn't allow affiliate links at all. Monica: [00:01:19] And I'm going to be honest, I'm not a big believer in putting direct affiliate links on Pinterest. I prefer to drive people to my site. Jillian: [00:01:30] OK so let's go through what each of those is. Monica: [00:01:35] The first way that you could do affiliate marketing on Pinterest is you could make a pin and link it to an affiliate link so that when someone clicks on it they're not going to your site. Make money with affiliate links on Pinterest Monica: [00:01:44] Let's say just as an example, you took a blogging course. You really love it. Now you're an affiliate of it and you want to promote it on Pinterest, so you would link directly to that person. Jillian: [00:01:56] And you would add your affiliate link to the pin. Monica: [00:02:00] Yes. Jillian: [00:02:01] Now Amazon is not happy about that anymore, is that correct? Monica: [00:02:05] That's correct. You cannot use Amazon affiliate links on Pinterest. Jillian: [00:02:10] OK, but you could for example though, let's say I love this pan from Amazon. Can you do this? I love this pan. I take pictures of my pan in my house. I then do a blog post about these awesome pans. Then I use that as a pin on Pinterest, it links back to my blog. But that is an affiliate. Monica: [00:02:33] Yes. And I strongly believe that is the better way to do it, even if Amazon was totally fine with you linking directly to them, even though they're not. Monica: [00:02:43] But even if they were, I strongly recommend getting the person to come to your site first. For so many reasons. The first reason being that you are, you're now getting the pageview. So you could choose to monetize your site with ads which could make you money. Monica: [00:02:58] But if you don't want to do ads, which I didn't do ads for the longest time and I'm actually just doing it now as an experiment, and I don't even know if I'll keep it. But right now I am running ads. Monica: [00:03:07] The other thing is I'm a huge huge believer in converting Pinterest traffic into email subscribers because once they're an email subscriber, you can market to them with affiliate links and all sorts of different ways forever as long as they stick around. Monica: [00:03:22] But if you think about it, if you get a click to an affiliate link to someone else's site you've lost them, you've lost all ability to do anything with them at that point. So that I just kind of take off the table personally. Monica: [00:03:34] Then if you take the tactic of getting them to your site with the purpose of explaining something affiliate driven. Whether it's like a course that you want to tell them about, or products on Amazon, that's great too. Monica: [00:03:49] But the method I actually prefer is giving them value in the post, a value driven blog post. And giving a single call to action that gets them on your email list and then once they're on your email list by all means direct them to your affiliates. Jillian: [00:04:09] Interesting. OK so you, because your business is all about helping moms grow businesses, you are picking affiliate programs or products that fit in with that. Monica: [00:04:23] So I have two sides a little bit. The side I focus on and my most revenue generating side is by far marketing tactics. So helping moms start their businesses and really understanding the data behind it. I like data driven stuff. Monica: [00:04:40] So how you can leverage different analytic things to bring traffic to your site. Mainly I focus on email marketing and Pinterest for that. Monica: [00:04:49] But I have a side of my business that is more passive that I have a lot of old content, mom driven content and especially when I had Maria this march. I had a lot of second-time mom content that I was putting up. Monica: [00:05:04] Like second time c-section stuff and things like that. And those I drive primarily using affiliate links I send them through a different funnel once they get on my email list, like a mom funnel kind of. Jillian: [00:05:20] That's so interesting. And then what kinds of products are you promoting? Promoting courses through affiliate links Monica: [00:05:26] So there's some Amazon but I have others. So Crystal Payne from Money Saving Mom, she has some really great courses for time management for moms with Make Over Your Mornings, Make Over Your Evenings which I actually found extremely beneficial balancing my own time. I took both and it really helped me. Monica: [00:05:44] So I recommend those, I try try to find courses, products, ebooks, checklists whatever it might be from other bloggers because I feel I would love to help other mom bloggers in the space grow their income and their following. Monica: [00:06:02] So when I was pregnant, and I was doing more c section posts and second time mom post I was looking for breastfeeding courses, and there is one that I found just by networking and Facebook groups and other blogging Facebook groups. I would just ask. "I have this post going up about you know C-section recovery. Do you have any products you recommend?" Monica: [00:06:28] So a lot of the products I linked from Amazon some of them from Target and I honestly I feel like that side of my business is very passive. Monica: [00:06:38] I know people say there's no such thing as passive income and it's not like I don't put work into it. A blog post is work, getting the affiliate links is work, setting up the email funnels is work and there's certainly work went into it and now they run pretty much on their own. Jillian: [00:06:53] Wow. So what's interesting about you is you've been able to take your life. The two sides of your life, your business side and your mom side and create small subset businesses out of both. Monica: [00:07:07] Under the same brand. Jillian: [00:07:08] Under the same brand, like you've been able to, and we talk about this on the podcast a lot of like niching down and not spreading yourself too thin. Monica: [00:07:17] So I just listened to your episode with Rachel Miller and I am in Rachel's course, her Facebook course and she is the niche down queen. She I mean she really hones in on things and builds them into explosive businesses. And she capitalizes on trends and all of that. Monica: [00:07:37] And I thought about this a lot. Especially when I was listening to that episode because I do feel like you can have a brand that is multifaceted but there are areas and different times within that brand that you are super focused. Monica: [00:07:52] Like right now, my business is super super focused on Promoted Pins. I found it as a spot that people needed education in. People were asking for it, so I created a course around it. Monica: [00:08:06] A lot of my day to day now is focused on helping people with Promoted Pins. Whether that's DIY or helping people actually get their campaigns up or running, campaigns for people. Monica: [00:08:21] I feel like I'm very niched there, but I didn't create a whole new website for it. I just pivot what I'm putting out at that time. And over time you get good at segmenting your email list, you send things to the right people. Jillian: [00:08:36] Right. And what email service are you using? Monica: [00:08:39] Convertkit. Jillian: [00:08:41] Convertkit. Yeah yeah okay. Monica: [00:08:43] So I have segments set up in there where I have a lot of funnels. I am a one woman show at this point. I have some contractors but very limited help that I get at this time, and I have a six figure business. Monica: [00:08:59] I'm a perfectionist and Type A, and I've had to learn to let go of some of that because not everything is perfect all the time. Sometimes I have typos and sometimes people cross pollinate in my funnels and so they might get more than one email in a day and it's unintentional but it happened. Monica: [00:09:21] I have this philosophy that I do the best I can. And I always have my reader at the forefront of my mind and I try to do what's best by her. And you know it might not be perfect all the time but it's as close as I can get it. Jillian: [00:09:36] Right and you know there was a previous episode with my friend, Becky Mansfield, and she is very similar in that she is a family lifestyle blog. Jillian: [00:09:46] But as her kids grow and she faces new things, she has seven different products, seven different lines to her business. And she too has different email funnels where she is being of service. But one could be about clean eating. And one could be about potty training. Monica: [00:10:09] Yeah I am follow her. Your Modern Family, right? Jillian: [00:10:12] Right exactly. Monica: [00:10:13] Yeah I watched her talk two years ago, that's where she was talking about her funnels how she sets them up. There are seven different ones that people go down each and they might cross over into the other one. Monica: [00:10:25] Actually I feel like she might have been one of the turning points for me, when I listened to her talk. Because I did feel the pressure that when I was pivoting. How to pivot as a blogger Monica: [00:10:34] Because I started as a working mom blog and it was a lot of corporate topics, talking to corporate working moms. A lot of time management, how to balance working outside the home. And as I got further away from that I couldn't really sustain a blog on that because I don't leave the house to work. Jillian: [00:10:49] Right. Right. Monica: [00:10:51] So I had to pivot but that doesn't mean the content that I had put up is bad content. It still drives me traffic. It still drives me sales and I don't even touch it anymore. So I don't see the problem with evolving with your brand. Monica: [00:11:07] My name was an accident. My brand is Redefining Mom. Which if you think about it, you can always redefine yourself like I can always use that brand for other things. Jillian: [00:11:16] Yes. You know what I like about this, is again your first piece of advice which is just start. And then it's like, you don't have to have all your ducks in a row. You don't have to know exactly what your niche is, like start with a niche and see how it goes. Jillian: [00:11:32] And as you change and evolve and as your baby grows or your family changes or who knows what, you can then do what you're doing. Jillian: [00:11:40] Which is now Promoted Pins. And again it's the internet, so maybe that will last forever, maybe it will be in six months you find something else. But that you can then figure out how to grow that. Monica: [00:11:58] There was a great post I just read from Michael Stelzner from Social Media Examiner. He said essentially that influencers come in and out of the space. People burn out of talking about the same topic. So they'll go. Monica: [00:12:16] And you can see it in a lot of big influencers, too. But someone will like hone in on Pinterest and they'll do it for a year or two maybe even three and then they'll get burned out and they'll start pivoting towards a different topic in the online marketing sphere. Monica: [00:12:31] And so it's OK to come and go from different topics based on where you are in life if you're a lifestyle blogger. You know in 10 years from now, I hope to still have my brand and you know I can't predict necessarily where I'll be in 10 years. But I know I'm not going be talking about c-sections in 10 years, I'm done having kids. Monica: [00:12:52] But that content is still there and it's just in the background. Even if you go to my site today, you're not going to see this splash page of c-section tips for new moms or second time moms. Monica: [00:13:04] Really the only way you're going to get to it is if you find it on Pinterest and I keyword it well. That's why I love Pinterest to be honest with you and Google, but I can't profess to be best at organic search on Google. But I am very good at keywording on Pinterest. Monica: [00:13:26] And so I could have all these different areas of my business because I can rank for c-section, I can rank for time management, I can rank for Pinterest tips on Pinterest. Monica: [00:13:37] But the people who are looking at that are not the same people. They're searching for what they need in the moment and arriving at that post that they need in the moment and they're taking action. Monica: [00:13:50] If I leave you with anything, it is that every post if you're a blogger should have a singular call to action. BLOGGING ADVICE: Every blog posts should have a singular call to action Jillian: [00:13:59] Singular. Yes. We talk about that. Yes. In fact we created MiloTree with that in mind. Which is one action. Jillian: [00:14:11] You know we have a variety of popups, but notice it's one pop up the shows to one user. It's not, hey follow me on Twitter. Wait, follow me on Instagram. Wait, join my email list, because you will burn out your user. They will have paralysis. So I am a huge believer in one call to action. Monica: [00:14:33] So now, I've actually had a student ask me that. So I think this is a good point with MiloTree. So when I was telling her about the single call to action she went to my site and she saw my MiloTree pop up and  I have it set up so the first time you visit. you get the Follow me on Pinterest pop-up. Monica: [00:14:50] And she said OK is that your call to action? Because really the call to action at the post was to get on my email list which is 95 percent of the time what I want you to do. Monica: [00:14:58] I said, well if you think about it, if someone clicks the follow me on Pinterest, it's actually opening up a new browser so I'm not taking them away from my site. It's opening in the new browser for you to follow me on Pinterest but my site is still there with the original what I want you to do. Jillian: [00:15:13] Yes. Yes exactly. Exactly. And if they follow you on Pinterest then chances are they will see your content. And you know when they're on Pinterest or whatever because you'll show up and then they will end up back on your site. And then they will be joining different lists. Monica: [00:15:28] Which leads me back into the whole promote thing, because once they found you on Pinterest, then if you want to get in front of them. I always say Promote Pins are the way to skip the line. Jillian: [00:15:38] I like that. I like that. Explain that. Monica: [00:15:45] OK. So at the end of the day Pinterest needs to make money. They employ people, they need to make money. And they, like any platform, they don't make money by sending you away from their site. Monica: [00:15:59] And that's what their whole business model is based on, is actually sending people away from their site. So they need to make money. How do they make money? They make money on ads of people sponsoring content on their platform. Monica: [00:16:12] So if that's how they make money, and they're in the business of making money like we're in the business of making money, I'm a believer of giving them what they want. Jillian: [00:16:20] I like that. Why as a blogger you should invest in Promoted Pins on Pinterest Monica: [00:16:22] The thing about Promoted Pins is, it's the ad that keeps on giving. Like I do pretty well with Facebook ads and I love Facebook ads, but when they're done they're done. It disappears off their platform. Nobody's clicking on anymore. Monica: [00:16:37] When you run a Promoted Pin. I always run traffic campaigns, which is you pay for the click. But by the nature of Pinterest, people are also saving the pin. So I'm promoting it. People are clicking and saving it. Monica: [00:16:51] Those saves that I get from the promotion, I paid for the click. I'm not even paying for the person to save it. But they do. Now through that person's account, that person's board. Those are called earned clicks, so you can actually see it in your analytics. And I believe that's what they actually call it. Monica: [00:17:07] You can see your paid metrics and your earned metrics and most of my campaign that I promote. I'm seeing after it's done, I still see from last summer I ran a promoted pin campaign and Google Analytics at the end of the URL in your google analytics it will be P=0, that means that you paid for that click. Monica: [00:17:29] Or PP=1 which means you earned that click, it came from after, it came from like someone saved your pin and then someone else went and clicked on it from a promoted campaign. Monica: [00:17:41] And I have from last summer, I ran a campaign for a month and I still get earned clicks on that. Every single week. Jillian: [00:17:50] Yes. And tell me if this is right. Which is, you run a promoted pin campaign and somebody then saves it, clicks through and saves that pin. You don't even know that person. Jillian: [00:18:05] But I see that person's pin somehow or maybe I followed that person and it shows up in my feed or I'm doing a search and I see that person's saved pin and I click on it. You are not paying for me to click on somebody's pin they saved from you. Does that make sense? Monica: [00:18:22] Yes. You're not. Jillian: [00:18:24] That's free? Monica: [00:18:25] That's free, yeah. And that's what comes up through your Google Analytics that PP=1 Monica: [00:18:30] Or when you're looking at your analytics and the ads dashboard pictures actually called out paid metrics versus earned metrics and earned means you didn't actually pay for it. Jillian: [00:18:40] Yep yep. OK. It's amazing. So I'm a mom, I want to build a business. And you say, start a blog. Start it. That's the first important thing. Talk to your husband, negotiate, fight, whatever you need to do. Carve out some time, then start to figure out what your first niche is. Jillian: [00:19:03] OK. Doesn't have to be your final niche, just first niche. Go for it. Start writing blog posts. Start cultivating, figuring out how you can be of service to people within this niche. Hopefully it's a niche you know very well. Monica: [00:19:19] I recommend that it is a niche you know very well, it will make it a lot easier. Jillian: [00:19:23] Right. So it's not skydiving, if you've never gone skydiving. Pick something that feels right. You know, start doing some research on going deeper into this area. Jillian: [00:19:35] Start finding products that you either have used yourself, or courses you've taken, those kinds of things, join their affiliate programs.  Start writing really useful blog posts that will help people, and your content in and of itself should be helpful. But add the links to those affiliate programs. Monica: [00:19:57] Yeah and you know, MiloTree is a great example. When you find something that you can talk about without even getting paid for it, like I was talking about MiloTree before there was an affiliate program for it all. Monica: [00:20:09] It just came so naturally because it was something that worked for me, so I would mention it all the time. So things like that. Monica: [00:20:16] If you're talking to a friend, if you have a lifestyle mom blog and you're talking to a friend about a product that you just love and you talk about it all the time. Write a post about what's so amazing about it and add your affiliate link, monetize it. Jillian: [00:20:30] Love that. I love that. I love that because somebody said to me, "but I feel like maybe my audience won't trust me if I'm monetizing off of these links." Get into the right mindset to do affiliate marketing Monica: [00:20:46] Okay, so blogging is at the end of the day it can be a huge mindset game. A lot of things can make you feel uncomfortable when you're first doing it, and you might get a negative comment and it can derail you. Monica: [00:21:01] I've gotten people tell me that I shouldn't have had kids if I didn't want to raise them and I mean crazy stuff I've had. And you know what, the first couple of those really did derail me. Monica: [00:21:11] I mean, for every 100 compliments one negative erases the 100 right? And so mindset wise and I've really started to just own things now. So what I say about the monetization side of it is, I'm not running a charity and it can't be a business if I'm running a charity and I'm doing this. Monica: [00:21:35] I'm taking time away from my family to run the business and I have to be compensated for it, and as long as you're talking about something that you genuinely use and believe in there is nothing wrong with you making money off of it. Jillian: [00:21:50] I like that. I agree. I like the idea of it's not a charity. Monica: [00:21:55] It is not. Otherwise it can't be a business. Jillian: [00:21:57] Right. And as women I think we're so used to giving you know and giving for free, that it is a mindset shift. Monica: [00:22:07] It is. And you are still giving. I mean you give so much value. A lot of bloggers are giving away a lot of value on their free content that they put out there. I tend to give more away and my email content. But still it's free. You're not paying to be on my email list. Monica: [00:22:25] I have one friend who runs a pretty big blog, and she got to the point where she actually says I welcome people to unsubscribe from me because if you were never going to pay me for anything then you know, this is not a two way relationship. Jillian: [00:22:45] Right. And by the way, email service providers are expensive. Monica: [00:22:49] They are. You are costing me money to be on my email list. So there's a level of, you shouldn't just look at everyone is just a dollar sign. Monica: [00:22:58] I think that that might be hard for women to do, especially moms who are just getting into this, but you should always have in the back of your mind that you're serving them and you wanted to serve them so well that they want to buy stuff that you recommend, or they want to buy something that you create because you've given them so much value. Jillian: [00:23:19] Right. I agree. OK, so the first way that I can make some money hopefully fast is through affiliates. Then what is the next place that you recommend I move? Monica: [00:23:33] So if you're doing typical blogging stuff, like a typical blogger model you can make money off ads and sponsorships with brands. Whether that's social media sponsorships or writing a blog post sponsorship. Monica: [00:23:46] I just started experimenting with ads five years in and that was just really like a way to enhance my own skills because it's something I didn't really do before. Monica: [00:23:55] But I personally don't like sponsorship work and that's a personal preference. And the reason that is is because it makes me feel like I'm working for someone and that's why I left corporate. I wanted to not feel like I was working for someone. Monica: [00:24:07] So it wasn't something that I really liked. But it is a way to quickly form some relationships with brands out there. So that's one way you can do it. BLOGGING ADVICE: Create your own products Monica: [00:24:17] The second thing, my preferred way, is to create something of your own and it really doesn't have to be something elaborate. You know I've I have bought printable packs from people for fourteen dollars. Monica: [00:24:35] Once you are driving traffic to your site and you understand what your audience wants to get. I have a spreadsheet, a budget spreadsheet is the best way I can illustrate this. I have a budget spreadsheet. I do not talk about budgeting. I don't talk about money. Besides how to make money online. I guess technically. How a budgeting spreadsheet made $10,000 Monica: [00:24:52] But I don't talk about budgeting at all. And I have a spreadsheet that my husband and I use when were both paid in commission in corporate and it's a very easy way to project out your finances for the year. And you know understand different levers you can pull with money coming in. Monica: [00:25:08] I put up the sales page on a lead page and I charge seventeen dollars for it. Last year it made me $10,000 and the only thing I do to promote it is I pin two pins on rotation through Tailwind and that's all I made $10,000. Jillian: [00:25:27] Wow I love that. OK I love it. Monica: [00:25:30] And who would have thought of that because it has nothing to do with my niche whatsoever. And if I listen to all the popular advice out there I never would have put it up for sale. Jillian: [00:25:40] And you just had created it for yourselves? Monica: [00:25:42] Yeah. My husband and I can remember clear as day when we did it because we missed commission on one paycheck and we're like. Now what? Because we lived paycheck to paycheck when our first daughter was born and so we came up with the system and it's really not difficult. Monica: [00:25:59] I have like a 22 minute video that I give you with it showing you how to use each tab. There's not complicated formulas. And I have like a intro video on the sales page so people know you don't have to have these wicked advanced Excel skills to figure it out or anything like that, and it sells only through Pinterest. Jillian: [00:26:22] Wow. Monica: [00:26:23] And that's the power of keywording right there. Jillian: [00:26:26] OK. This is terrific. This is absolutely terrific. All right, Monica, and you have a variety of products on your site, courses that you've created. Monica: [00:26:37] Yes I do. Now that I had my second, I really have to focus my time, and I just came to the realization that I have to lighten that load a little bit because it's hard to keep things updated, and I do feel a sense of responsibility to keep things updated for people who pay me money, so I'm really narrowing down and focusing on Promoted Pins. Monica: [00:27:01] But I also have an organic Pinterest course that goes hand in hand. Like if you don't understand Pinterest to drive free traffic, it's going to be really hard for you to understand Pinterest to drive paid traffic. Monica: [00:27:13] So I do feel like they both go hand in hand and those are those are my primary focuses right now. And then I have some evergreen. Monica: [00:27:20] I have a course about how to start an online business for moms, which is pretty evergreen because that doesn't really change, you are talking to your husband, setting up your finances, time management. All of that. That is what it is right. That doesn't really change so I have stuff like that up there too. Jillian: [00:27:36] That is incredible. And you also do coaching. Monica: [00:27:39] I do. I have a little bit less time for that now, but the primary way I work with people are in strategy sessions. Especially if you're just trying to wrap your mind around getting started. I get a lot of people that are in the beginning and they just need some advice on what to do next. Monica: [00:27:59] And then the second I would say the most popular way people work with me are in Promoted Pin strategy sessions. Jillian: [00:28:06] That is terrific OK. And if people want to reach out to you what is the best way? Monica: [00:28:11] Well you can just go to my site redefiningmom.com. I have a contact tab on there. And then I also have a Facebook group which is probably the easiest way to get me in real time because you can tag me, and I see it almost instantaneously and you can get that by going to redefiningmom.com/Facebook. Jillian: [00:28:30] Monica, thank you. Honestly, I've learned so much from you and congrats on your new baby. Monica: [00:28:37] Thank you so much for having me. Grow your Instagram followers authentically and for free Jillian: [00:28:39] Let's say you are a blogger or online entrepreneur and you want to grow your social media followers on Instagram, Facebook, Pinterest, YouTube, or grow your e-mail list and you've been wanting to try MiloTree but you're not that technical. Jillian: [00:28:54] We have launched a service called MiloTree fast track where for $50 we will install it and optimize it for you. Jillian: [00:29:03] If you are interested just reach out to me and Jillian@Milotree.com and of course you will get your first 30 days of MiloTree free. Sign up for MiloTree now and get your first 30 DAYS FREE!

This interview with Monica Froese, from the blog, Redefining Mom, gets real. We discuss how motherhood changes us from the inside out, and sometimes it's not pretty. We talk about how to start a new business when you're a new mom because you can't do things the old way anymore. In part 1 of my interview, Monica and I talk about loving our kids, postpartum depression, the importance of taking care of ourselves, and what it's like to start a new business even when your husband doesn't approve. If you are a business owner and a mother, don't miss this one! Resources: Redefining Mom Postpartum-PTSD Blog Post The Female Brain MiloTree *Some of these links may be affiliate links and I might make a small commission at no cost to you if you click. Transcript - How to Start a New Business When You're A New Mom with Monica Froese Host: [00:00:03] Welcome to The Blogger Genius Podcast, brought to you by MiloTree. Here's your host, Jillian Leslie. Jillian: [00:00:11] Hey everybody welcome back to the Blogger Genius podcast. I first have to say thank you so much for showing up. I am loving doing this podcast. I am learning so much from my guests. Jillian: [00:00:22] So today, my interview is with a woman named Monica Froese, and she's an online business strategist. So for this interview, I've split it into two parts. Jillian: [00:00:35] I do this because the interviews are long but they're so good that I want you to hear everything, but I don't want to overwhelm you with a podcast episode that goes over an hour or so. Jillian: [00:00:45] Would you reach out to me let me know whether you want them split, so they're in kind of bite sized chunks or you'd rather them be full, hour to hour and 15 minute interviews? Jillian: [00:00:59] So without further ado I bring you part 1 of my interview with Monica Froese, and if you are a mom with a business, you will love this. Jillian: [00:01:10] My guest today is Monica Froese and she is an online business strategist and she predominantly works with mom entrepreneurs. So welcome to the show, Monica. Monica: [00:01:21] Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here. Jillian: [00:01:24] All right so first of al, you are one of our top affiliates for MiloTree, so that's why I wanted to reach out to you because, then I looked at your site and saw that you were doing all this incredibly cool stuff. Jillian: [00:01:35] But when I reached out to you, you said to me, "I need to get back to you because I'm about to have a baby." Monica: [00:01:41] Yes. It was like I think the week I was having her. Jillian: [00:01:43] OK. And then you had your baby and then you reached back out to me, and then we were just talking, before we pressed record about having a baby. And for you this, is your second baby. Monica: [00:01:55] My second, yep. Jillian: [00:01:56] But what we were talking about, which I thought was so relatable was how hard it can be when you have a new baby. The challenges of having a new baby when you're running a business Monica: [00:02:05] Especially when you're running a business. Jillian: [00:02:07] Especially when you are running a business. I was sharing a story about how I read all the books, my husband and I went into this we thought with our eyes open. We had our daughter and then it felt like our house burnt down. Monica: [00:02:24] I concur with that wholeheartedly. Jillian: [00:02:28] So you know you have all these plans and you and we were talking about this. Honestly how people tell you how magical and special it is to have a baby and a newborn. And for some of us it's not so magical and special. Monica: [00:02:44] Yes. So I have to be, I am careful when I talk about this in front of my 5 year old because she doesn't have the ability to necessarily understand what I mean when I say certain things, like having a kid is really hard. I don't want her to think, "Oh I'm really hard on my mom." Monica: [00:03:04] So I do try to be very clear when I when I state it, and I absolutely think that there's like a general feeling that you're given or at least I was given growing up and getting married that having kids was like this wonderful thing and it completed life and all of this stuff. Monica: [00:03:25] And then I had my first and then my second, and I love them both dearly like I don't look at them and think, "Man I wish I didn't have you." But I absolutely think it's the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. Monica: [00:03:40] And I tell my husband all the time, I could work 90 hours in my business a week and find that a thousand times easier than having kids. Jillian: [00:03:49] I have to say I agree, I totally agree. I think that people who don't have kids will come up to it. You know a couple of friends of mine will say like, "Oh my god, is it like the best thing ever?" And I say well it's not puppies and rainbows. For me though, it has given me depth and purpose and meaning. Monica: [00:04:09] Yes I agree with that. Jillian: [00:04:10] But not happiness, in meaning of wonderful happy moments and it's like it's joyous but it's also the hardest thing. And I don't think that that we hear that. Monica: [00:04:24] We don't. I don't feel like I heard it at all, to be honest with you. I didn't have kids super early, my first I had at 27 and I'm 33 now, and I had my second. So you know I'm like an average age nowadays I would say probably for having kids. Monica: [00:04:42] But I was still one of the first in my group of friends that had kids. And it was super hard to articulate to them what it was like because I felt like everyone expected me to be like "this is amazing!" And I did not feel that way at all. Dealing with postpartum depression as a blogger Monica: [00:05:00] Now, I did have postpartum PTSD with my first kid. I had a very traumatic birth which I wrote about on my blog and stuff, which actually has led to a lot of opportunity for me just by sharing that because I've come to learn that that's also getting a little bit more traction now I feel. Monica: [00:05:16] But talking about postpartum is also one of those things that either treat it as taboo or just not something that you share with people. And so now I talk about it a lot because acknowledging it was a huge turning point for me in life. Monica: [00:05:32] I mean that's actually, if I had a pinpoint how I got into treating my blog like a business, was because I was diagnosed with postpartum 15 months in and then after a lot of therapy for it, I knew that I had to change my own circumstances. And that was getting out of corporate. Jillian: [00:05:52] And if people want to find that blog post do you remember the title? Monica: [00:05:58] I'm almost positive the URL is redefiningmom.com/postpartum-PTSD. Jillian: [00:06:01] Got it. Got it. And how long did it last? It sounds like you came out the other end although, now you have another baby. How long did it take for you to kind of come back to yourself? Monica: [00:06:17] So I thought after I had her, that my turning point was around the first year. But then my husband came to me and said, I really want my kids to be close together. And I thought I was going to gouge out his eyes, which was a big red flag that something wasn't right. Monica: [00:06:31] And I kind of knew something wasn't right because when I went back to work, I saw all these moms that had multiple kids functioning way better than I was, and I'm like I only have one. Why is it so hard for me? Monica: [00:06:45] I was just stressed out all the time. And then he asked for another kid, and I flipped out to put it mildly. And I switched doctors because of the doctor issue is kind of what led to the birth trauma. Monica: [00:06:59] I got a new doctor, sat down with her. She almost hit the nail on the head. Within five minutes of talking to me like waterworks turned on and she she said you're you're definitely dealing with some postpartum issues and I thought that's kind of crazy you know at 15 months postpartum, really? Monica: [00:07:15] So she sent me to a therapist and then I would say around year 2 when my daughter turned 2 is really when I started to feel like myself again. And because of that I really did not want to rush and having another kid because it terrified me that that that it would happen again. Jillian: [00:07:33] Yes. When I was pregnant I read this book, I don't know if you've read it, called The Female Brain. It's a really good book and it goes through how our brains evolve over time, and there's a chapter on pregnancy and it talks about how our brains get completely rewired during pregnancy. How motherhood changes your outlook on careers Jillian: [00:07:52] And again I read it and I thought this is really interesting and then I had my daughter and I thought, oh my god. Because when I was a writer in Hollywood, I wrote movies and I was in the midst of writing a movie for Salma Hayek back when I was pregnant. Jillian: [00:08:10] I gave birth to my daughter and had not finished my draft of my script and totally panicked. And here I popped out my baby. My birth was not terrific either I had a big C section and stuff. Not planned. And then I had this script to write. And literally everything shifted. Like I didn't care anymore. Jillian: [00:08:34] All of a sudden I had this person and I had to keep her alive. And it just like my brain changed. And it was really because of that, that I ultimately then wrote another movie. And I'm in the midst of it, and I remember thinking, oh my god, like a part of me would have thought this was so cool previously. Jillian: [00:08:57] And I'm sitting in a meeting at Paramount and I'm thinking to myself, oh you guys, like yeah I like I don't care what you're talking about because I have a bigger job now. I'm Lainey's mom, I've got to get home to her. Jillian: [00:09:10] And I'm nursing, so like you know I'm like missing her and I'm like you know leaking, and I'm thinking, wow this is crazy. So I will say, for me again when I had my daughter everything changed. Monica: [00:09:26] And so first, I did not know that you used to be a script writer which is really cool. Sitting in a meeting at Paramount. That's a very cool fact. Jillian: [00:09:36] It was much cooler before I had my daughter. Monica: [00:09:39] Well, so you know I can completely relate on that. So I started my career pretty young. I started it while I was still in undergrad. Unbeknownst to me because I was I was on the path to go to law school. Monica: [00:09:49] I actually got into Harvard Law and turned it down because I started working for a big Fortune 100 technology company while I was an undergrad and then I graduated early so I had this gap before law school started. Monica: [00:10:02] And so I started full time. I transitioned from part time to full time. They came to me and said, hey you know we'll pay you to get your MBA. And I thought oh OK, you know I could stay locally and it just my life just sort of took off in that direction. Monica: [00:10:16] I worked at the same Fortune 100 company for 11 years, and when I said that when I was 31 people would be like but you're only 31. I'm like yes I started when I was 20. It's hard for people to like, how is that possible? Monica: [00:10:30] But I got it while working full time. My MBA I was working full time and I was on the career path. Like even when I got pregnant it was like I had a one track mind. I was climbing the ladder. I knew where I wanted to go, and in my mind was like why else did I get my MBA if I wasn't going to use it. You know, get to the suite someday. Monica: [00:10:50] And then I had her. And nothing about my career appealed to me whatsoever. When I went back to work it was nothing but a burden. Jillian: [00:10:57] Yep I totally know. It's super super weird because I too was crazy driven and again, the weird part was that after I had my daughter, I was still driven but in a different way. I wanted more control over my life. Monica: [00:11:20] That's exactly it. And I've done a lot of thinking about this because I'm naturally pretty rebellious I would say. But I've always been straight and narrow. It's so funny because my husband says, "You have so many opinions but you've always followed the rules in life." Monica: [00:11:39] I went to Catholic school my entire life up through college and I never got a detention. I never didn't do my homework. If I got a B it was like the end of the world. I never missed a deadline at work. It just was. Monica: [00:11:57] But I had this rebellious side of me that felt like I'm really sick of following the rules all the time. I was just burned out from constantly following the rules and I wanted to do something that was on my own terms. Monica: [00:12:09] I think in a blog post when I quit my job I said, you know how crazy is it that I had to ask permission to go to a doctor's appointment, like why do we have to ask other adults permission to go to a doctor's appointment? Monica: [00:12:23] So you know I just I knew. I did a live video on this group at one point about, I always had an entrepreneurial spirit because I did some crazy things even as a teenager to make money online. Monica: [00:12:38] Like before like eBay was a thing, Yahoo Auctions was a thing. And I mean I was like 15 at this point, and I learned how to get good tickets from Ticketmaster and how the Ticketmaster system worked. Monica: [00:12:58] I had an obsession in my teenage years with NSYNC so I would get really good tickets. Then I learned that people would actually buy photographs. This is with film. This was not digital. It did turn digital like halfway through this obsession. Monica: [00:13:17] I would take pictures and sell them on Yahoo Auctions and make a ton of money. And I got good at SEO without even realizing it was SEO. I just didn't realized what I was doing. And that sort of was at the beginning. Monica: [00:13:30] But like my dad was telling me all the things I did as a kid. I had the thing with Lisa Frank stickers, and I figured out how to sell them to my friends. And just really weird stuff that I did. Monica: [00:13:41] I found a book when I moved. It was a woman entrepreneur book. This had to have been like 12 years ago. And I took notes about all these different types of business things I thought of that would be a cool idea. Monica: [00:13:57] And none of them are really relevant anymore because the world changed so much with the explosion of the Internet. But I just I think I always had that inkling that I was meant to do something else but I only knew one way which was to fall in line, to listen to authority and that's just the way it's going to be. How motherhood makes you braver as a blogger and entrepreneur Jillian: [00:14:17] Right. And I will say for me having my daughter, has made me braver because I don't have as much time to obsess about stuff in my head. Jillian: [00:14:32] That I kind of send the email. You know a brand wants to work with me and I go OK here's how much it is. And I kind of gulp a little bit because you know what, my time is valuable and if they say yes, great. And if they say no, I'm going to forget I sent that email. Monica: [00:14:49] Well you know, you are hitting on so many points I feel like I talk to my husband about all the time now that I just had my second. I have this thing where people are shocked that I wanted to get back to work so fast after having my second. Monica: [00:15:06] I got 12 weeks the first time obviously because I was in corporate, and that's just how it was where I worked. And then now, I think it was like week four. I was planning to take six weeks. And then I realized real quick that I actually needed to probably take eight because they don't get their shots until two months. I can't really expose her very much before then. Monica: [00:15:27] So I was like I want to work at four weeks and everyone's looking at me like, What are you talking about? You just had a baby, don't you want to spend time with your baby? But I said the problem with me not working, first of all I'm very passionate about what I do. Monica: [00:15:43] But second, I wanted to seize opportunities and not let the having a baby be a reason why I had a push things. Like even this podcast that I reached out to you pretty soon after having her, because it's going to be really easy for me to just kind of fail. Monica: [00:16:04] Having the baby and you know, "Well I just had a baby so I don't have to work right now." But I was going to miss opportunities if I if I didn't like just start putting myself out there again. Jillian: [00:16:17] Yes. And again because of the work that we do, like I'm in my casual pants right. And I have no makeup on and I can still do it. My brain still working, but I didn't have to shower yet. You know and I can still do my job. Monica: [00:16:38] Yeah, and in this world, when you get momentum which I feel like I've gotten in the last six months. Of course it always every momentum thing I've ever really had, I got two promotions when I got back from my last maternity leave. Monica: [00:16:53] Well the momentum in my business really picked up in my third trimester this time. And so I didn't want to lose that momentum because once you when you disappear from this world you're just gone. Monica: [00:17:05] So I kept telling my husband, I busted my butt for this, it would be a shame to just let it go and implode. Jillian: [00:17:14] So could you talk then to a mom, let's say who has a baby whose brain has been rewired whose priorities now. Like you know for me, hanging out with Salma Hayek was no longer cool, hanging out with my baby was what I wanted to be doing. Jillian: [00:17:33] And who's kind of freaking out on the inside going, "What the hell has happened to me?" who's probably really sleep deprived who you know has not seen a shower in a long time. Who has this feeling of like "where is my life going?" Jillian: [00:17:49] And there is more to me than just being with my baby, even though that's kind of what the world is telling me I need to be doing. But going back to my corporate job doesn't feel right. What would you say to her? ADVICE to a new mom who wants to work... Monica: [00:18:04] I think along the way, like especially now my daughters 10 and a half weeks, she's pretty new. And people are still telling me, are acting as if I'm not working because I have people in my life that just can't wrap their mind around me working. Jillian: [00:18:21] So wait I just have to say I have people here who have no idea that I still work. Just so you know it is because it doesn't look like a normal job. And you know I can wear my casual clothes all the time. Monica: [00:18:33] And they wonder what the heck you do on the computer all day. Jillian: [00:18:36] No they think it's cute that I have some sort of blogish thing. But anyway. Monica: [00:18:42] Yes! And then when they find out that the blogish thing really makes me more than I made in corporate. They're like wait, what? How did you do that? Jillian: [00:18:48] Exactly. Exactly. But anyway so go back. Sorry I didn't mean to interrupt. Monica: [00:18:51] Oh that's OK. So when it comes to you know being in that new mom phase, and you are just overwhelmed by everything -- the lack of sleep, when you're going to shower over things that you said. I personally find and this is what I tell people all time, is acknowledging it is step number one. Why it's so hard to ask for help as a new mom Monica: [00:19:12] Acknowledging that this is not easy, and asking for help, because I did not ask for help the first time. I am one of these people that honestly asking for help stresses me out in a lot of ways. It makes me feel like well, if I ask for help and they do something for me that I'm going to owe them the favor and I feel like I'm in debt. Monica: [00:19:30] And then what am I going to ever have time to pay back this debt that I ask for help in a bad way to see it. But I've noticed that a lot of new moms feel that way they just don't ask for help. Monica: [00:19:42] And so now, this time it's like night and day. Last time I asked for nothing. And I felt like I was on an island. No one visited me. I was completely drowning in sorrow. To be honest with you last time it was just awful. Monica: [00:19:57] This time I got up around week 4, that's when I started saying I wanted to go back to work. But it also coincided with, I felt like I was starting to spiral. Monica: [00:20:08] I felt like things were becoming unmanageable really fast for me because the first couple of weeks they kind of are a little drowsy and the sleep deprivation hasn't really kicked in yet. Like you're still able to function even though you're not sleeping a ton. Monica: [00:20:24] And then it hit me. My husband traveled for a whole week and it was my unraveling. So when he came home I had two options. And this is I think a lot of women reached this point. I either was going to hide it and try to make it work without saying anything and be miserable. Or I was going to speak up and tell him what I needed and get help. Jillian: [00:20:47] So what kind of help did you get? Monica: [00:20:49] Oh we got a lot of help. The first thing I did was you know I strongly feel like I went through, I changed my career intentionally so that I could build a flexible lifestyle that made me happier and part of that was being able to afford certain things which my business now allows me to do. Monica: [00:21:10] So we contacted postpartum service and we started getting sleep support because I pump exclusively so I'm able to pump and someone else can feed her. And I start to wake up to pump because I'm on a schedule. But we got a postpartum doula that came in two to four nights in May. Because we're recording at the end of May through like the last four or five weeks. Monica: [00:21:33] And they sleep trained her which I didn't even know it was possible, to be honest with you. But because for us what I've come to learn or feel like what happened was that when we wake up with her we're kind of stressed about the lack of sleep because we're overtired, we don't know when she's going to go back to sleep and it would stress us out. Monica: [00:21:52] But the doulas that's what they're here for. They're supposed to be awake. And they're their sleep schedule they know they get to go home and they sleep because they don't have a newborn. Monica: [00:22:03] So she just became a really good sleeper a lot faster than my first and she's giving us four to five hour blocks now versus like two to three hour blocks, which is a lot harder to manage for sleep deprivation. Monica: [00:22:16] So that was the first thing I did this time, and honestly it was possible because of blogging I could not have done the corporate thing, it would have it would have broke us. It was way too expensive for what I made in corporate. So I owe that to my business. Jillian: [00:22:34] Nice, nice. Monica: [00:22:35] Also though, mymother-in-law is one of those that loves babies. She thinks babies are fabulous. And she knows my feelings on it. You know, my baby is fabulous but I wish she would sleep. Monica: [00:22:48] So my mother-in-law took her a couple of nights as well. She just loved it. She thought it was the best thing ever. There's part of me that thought, I am a terrible mother that I'm letting my baby my newborn be taken care of by other people, and I like what's wrong with me that I that I'm allowing this to happen? Monica: [00:23:08] And then I'm like well, someone said to me, I can't recall who it was, that someone said you know there's no trophies handed out for the person who sleeps the least as a mom. Jillian: [00:23:18] Yes. Yes. Monica: [00:23:20] And they're right. No one's going to reward me at the end of this for being out of my mind, sleep deprived and not being able to cope with this. And if I thought I'm still pretty much in the middle. But I strongly feel that getting sleep helps me to stay away from the postpartum. Monica: [00:23:38] I called it a black hole last time, that's when I felt like I was stuck in a black hole and I would do anything to avoid feeling that way again. So if getting sleep and allowing my mother to take baby or hiring someone because we were able to do that this time helps me, then it why would I not do it? Jillian: [00:23:56] Right. When my daughter was born I had a babysitter for her because I was writing scripts and stuff like that. But I also believed I needed time that was mine. I needed time away and I too had that guilt of like wait Idon't want to be with my baby 24/7. Jillian: [00:24:14] And then I came to the realization that I was a better mother when I had these breaks because she would come home and I would be able to love her, love on her even more because I missed her. Monica: [00:24:29] Yes. Jillian: [00:24:29] Because I was drowning in this monotony of like, oh my god, you know the experience I would feel, is like I'd have this newborn. And it's like a half hour would go by and I would think oh my god what am I going to do for the next 23 hours and 30 minutes? Jillian: [00:24:49] Like how is time going so slowly? And so to have a break and come back. I was so recharged that I came to the realization I'm a better mother for it. Monica: [00:25:03] And everyone recharges differently. So I don't recharge by interaction with others. I call myself an outspoken introvert. Jillian: [00:25:12] I like that. I am too. I am too. Monica: [00:25:15] I'm socializing with you right now and this is not a problem for me, but if I do back to backs like this in a day, if I did let's say three or four hour long calls and then immediately when I was done it was like OK here's the baby. It's your time now. You're tapped in as a mom. That doesn't help me at all. Monica: [00:25:37] So I have to be intentional with how much interaction I have. I'm working so that when is my time to tap back into being mom. I'm not overwhelmed by her and I have come to learn that about myself. Figure out your rhythms as a working mother Jillian: [00:25:51] Yes, I do think again just what you said is so important, which is understanding your rhythms as a mother. Understanding what feeds you, because being a mother is so exhausting. It sucks everything out of you. Jillian: [00:26:07] Now again, it is also, it has given me purpose and meaning in a way that I am so happy that I get to have. And so it's that thing of like, oh my god it's also one of the best things I've done in my life. It is one of the things I am most proud of. Jillian: [00:26:28] It's given me so much, I understand humanity in a way that I don't think I would have if I hadn't become a mother, it's so profound. Monica: [00:26:41] Yes it teaches you how to sacrifice too. Jillian: [00:26:45] Yes, like it stretches you in ways that you never would get stretched. And it forces you to grow up and it forces you to confront your own issues and like it is magical in so many ways and so difficult. Monica: [00:26:59] And you know it's not just for moms too, because my husband, like I said my mother in law thinks babies and children are the best thing ever. She couldn't imagine being anything but a stay at home mom. Monica: [00:27:12] She had no passion to work outside the home whatsoever. That's what she wanted to do. She had four boys. She loved it. So my husband was raised with, that's what moms like to do. Right. And then enter his wife who was like the exact opposite. Monica: [00:27:28] There was a time when I had my first that I actually thought I wanted to be a stay at home mom and that I mean I have since reneged really hard against that. Monica: [00:27:39] I don't want to be a stay at home mom but you know for him, that was a super hard adjustment and I took it super personally, like why do you want me to be something I'm not? Monica: [00:27:50] And then what I've learned with him too, which helps him is that when he's alone with the kids. So we've discovered that, he is a terrific father. He is so in tune to the girls and he loves them dearly, but he can't keep the house functioning and take care of them like I can. Monica: [00:28:08] So when he gets overwhelmed like if I'm on a business trip or something, and if he feels frazzled with just all the moving parts, then I'll say, do you want to do this full time? And the answer is always no. Monica: [00:28:27] It's like so if you don't want to do it full time, why, just because I'm a woman, should I want to do it full time? Jillian: [00:28:32] Right. Right. Monica: [00:28:33] We all have different things that light us up and being a mom is just one of the things that lights me. It's not the only thing that lights me up. Can a new mom start a blog or business and quit her job? Jillian: [00:28:43] So OK so let's go back to, I'm a new mom, right. But now everything is just different. But I want something for myself, and if I quit my job we lose that income. But I'm overwhelmed because I now have kids and I'm kind of lost. Jillian: [00:29:05] But I'm hard working, but I can't seem to get my shower in for the day. Could I then start some sort of business? Monica: [00:29:15] Well so the first thing is and it's no matter how you look at it it, the first thing you have to do is just start because there will never be a good time for a side hustle or starting a blog, especially if you're already working full time. Monica: [00:29:33] Which I did. I started this and I was working full time. There is never a good time for it to fit in and you're going to have to make tradeoffs and sacrifices for it to happen. Monica: [00:29:42] So I give up a lot of social engagements because part of me would rather just work. And then the other part of me is, that's the only time I have. Right. Monica: [00:29:52] So I would say that we changed our lifestyle quite dramatically when I decided that I wanted this to be a thing. And so Saturday mornings for example, he took over sole childcare and I would leave. I had to leave because otherwise if your kids see you then you're still there. ADVICE: Be willing to make sacrifices Jillian: [00:30:14] Right. Right. Monica: [00:30:16] So I would just leave the house and I did a lot of nights. I worked until really late at night. I actually, I would take days off, I would use my vacation time at work to take days off to work on my business because I already had childcare. Because I should've been at work. Monica: [00:30:36] And I learned real fast, and this kind of comes with, I have a corporate marketing background so ROI - return on investment was always a good thing in my life whether it was corporate or business. I just learned to give up the tasks in my business that weren't producing revenue especially in the beginning. Monica: [00:30:54] I do a lot of stuff now that is not necessarily revenue driven, but necessary to move forward. But I also have a little bit more time than when I was in corporate. Jillian: [00:31:03] So what would you say if I am a new mom and I want to start a side hustle? Walk me through what you recommend. Monica: [00:31:14] Well first you got to get your spouse on board. If you're married or whatever you have to get them onboard first. Monica: [00:31:20] Honestly I strongly feel that that's your first move because if you just dive in and then inform them later right. Jillian: [00:31:27] Right, like "Hey you're staying home this morning while I go work on my business." Like what? OK. Monica: [00:31:31] And most partners will not understand why you're doing something that doesn't have an immediate payoff. So I had this, my husband and I, when I pulled the plug on corporate, I had the backbone all set up, like the website had been up for three years. Monica: [00:31:49] I didn't touch it for long periods of time in there, but I had some cool opportunities that came to me just by having a website up. I wasn't even actively blogging and I got to go to the White House. I got invited to a working families event under the Obama administration, and I got to meet him. I got to go in the West Wing right outside of the Oval Office. Monica: [00:32:07] So it was it was a pretty big deal just because I had a website that was up. I barely touched at the time. So when I pulled the plug on corporate, I was not making my corporate salary. It wasn't an exact tradeoff. Monica: [00:32:22] Like OK now this month I'm bringing in the same amount. Luckily for us we were able to save and finagle things so that I had a little bit of ramp time. Monica: [00:32:31] But my husband expected it when I pulled the plug on corporate that I was going to be way more present at home because I didn't have a "job." And for five months we butted heads like crazy. Monica: [00:32:47] And I had this thing that happened I called Decision Fatigue. I did not realize how many decisions that you actually make when you run your own business in a day. Monica: [00:32:56] So things I would typically decide for the house, I was burned out. I was physically there, but my brain was just fried and I would dump stuff on him, I'd be like you just decide. I can't I can't do thing. Jillian: [00:33:12] I call that "mental load." My husband and I talk about it all the time, just like, oh my god my mental load is so high right now even to decide what shoes to wear. Monica: [00:33:23] That seems so silly, but it's it's a real thing and I learned that real quick, in the five months when it became like my full time thing. So now I help, when I talk to moms who are just kind of embarking on this journey, I tell them the number one thing -- you have to get your husband onboard or your spouse or your partner. Monica: [00:33:43] And you have to articulate that, one, you're not going to see money instantaneously. You have to ramp up, there's going to be a ramp up time, and two, you have to ask directly for dedicated time to work on it. Monica: [00:34:01] Where you're not point person in the house or the parent, and you have to put it on the calendar. I always say, put it on the calendar because if it's not on the calendar, it's like it doesn't exist. If you want to start a blog or business figure out your finances first Monica: [00:34:13] So once you do that and you can get them to buy in, and then you need to run your finances, then you've got to figure out how much do I have to make? If you are working, what is the tipping point that will allow you to quit your job and your budget. Monica: [00:34:26] Can you put extra money away until that, you have to figure that part out. Because people don't do these two things because they think a lot of people are skeptical that it will actually become something, so they just put it off. Monica: [00:34:42] And the truth is, if you don't figure out your finances it will never become something because you don't know where you stand then. Jillian: [00:34:50] Right. Right. And that's uncomfortable. Becoming a mother is a lot about learning to be OK in discomfort. And this is another one of those places where it's uncomfortable. Monica: [00:35:04] Very. I mean they are tough conversations. And I would say and my husband would probably agree, that I dug in my heels pretty hard, and he did not like it at all. It wasn't like this, I think a lot of times people read these stories about bloggers make it big and then their husband comes home from his job to work with them. Monica: [00:35:27] My husband has clearly said he has no ambition to do that. Still even though I'm making a lot more than I was the day I started right, he does not want to do it. He wants to travel in his job which complicates our schedule because as my business is taking off, he still want this career path to be on his trajectory. Monica: [00:35:47] And he was not like the love story of he just fell in love with my business, and we sailed off into the sunset. We fought a lot about it. Jillian: [00:36:01] OK so then what? Let's say I've done this, and I've got a six month runway to make a business to prove to my husband that this isn't just a pipe dream. Now what? What are some of the easiest ways to start bringing income in? Jillian: [00:36:18] So I put up a blog, I get that up and running. Now I have no people. I don't even know what I'm doing. Where can I quickly make money? Jillian: [00:36:29] OK that's the end of Part 1. Yes, I left you on a cliffhanger so please come back next week and learn how to start making money from nothing. What is MiloTree FastTrack? Jillian: [00:36:40] Hey guys so we just launched a new service called MiloTree FastTrack. Jillian: [00:36:45] For fifty dollars, we will optimize and install your MiloTree pop up on your site. This way you can put your social media growth and email list growth on autopilot, and you won't have to worry about it. Jillian: [00:36:59] If you sign up now you get your first 30 days free. Reach out to me if you're interested. jillian@milotree.com Sign up for MiloTree now and get your first 30 DAYS FREE!

Today I’m talking with KariAnne Wood from the blog, Thistlewood Farms. KariAnne is a DIY and interior design blogger, but really she's an excellent storyteller. In this episode we explore how starting a blog can lead to multiple book deals. We delve into how KariAnne started her blog out a feeling of loneliness and then built it into a booming business! Her blog lead her to a huge publishing career. But what most impressed me most about KariAnne is how she's built such a deep connection with her community, and it's all been through authenticity. And wait until you hear her stories! Resources: Thistlewood Farms So Close to Amazing (book) The DIY Home Planner (book) You've Got This (Because God's Got You) (book) MiloTree Some of these links may be affiliate, meaning at no cost to you, I may make a commission. Transcript: How Starting a Blog Can Lead to Multiple Book Deals With KariAnne Wood Host: [00:00:03] Welcome to the Blogger Genius Podcast, brought to you by MiloTree. Here's your host, Jillian Leslie. Jillian: [00:00:10] Hello everyone. Welcome back to the Blogger Genius Podcast. Today, my guest is KariAnne Wood who is the founder and CEO of Thistlewood Farms. She is a lifestyle blogger, author, and speaker. So welcome to the show, KariAnne. KariAnne: [00:00:30] Thank you so much, I'm so glad to be here. Jillian: [00:00:33] So we were just talking about a whole host of things, the main thing I am curious about is, first of all, how you started your blog and how you ended up moving back into your childhood home? KariAnne: [00:00:49] Well, the blog kind of began out of necessity about 10 years ago, we were living in the Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex in McKinney, Texas, which is a very busy metropolitan area. KariAnne: [00:01:01] My husband and I, we were just tired of all the busy, and tired of the rat race and we wanted an adventure. So we gathered our four children up and we move to the middle of nowhere in Kentucky. KariAnne: [00:01:14] It was actually the suburb of a 500 person town. Cows were our neighbors. Target was crossing state lines. There were no stoplights in our entire county. And there I was in the middle of this rural paradise and I was lonely. KariAnne: [00:01:34] I wanted to really reach out and find a community of like-minded people that love to decorate and share their heart. And so I started a blog called, Thistlewood Farms. Jillian: [00:01:44] So wait, OK, so you move out there. You're living the dream and you're lonely. How do you feel? Like oh my God, we made the biggest mistake of our lives? KariAnne: [00:01:53] Well, everyone else, my four kids were like having the time of their lives. My husband was extraordinarily happy because we bought a business, and he was all consumed with the growing of the business and everybody was so happy except me. KariAnne: [00:02:07] And part of the reason why I was lonely is because we moved to an area where everybody was related. They came over on the Mayflower together, and they were all together and it was really hard to make friends and I definitely made some amazing friends. Building a blog to find a community KariAnne: [00:02:22] I'm not going to act like I was all by myself, but I just wanted people that had similar interests to me. And so that's really how the blog was born, kind of out of just looking for community. Jillian: [00:02:34] Interesting. And have you always had a designer's eye? Have you always been creative? KariAnne: [00:02:40] 100 percent. Like when I was younger, I had Barbie houses and I was like, forget about the Barbies, because I would just decorate their houses and then kind of plop them in. So yeah, I've always loved to decorate and I've always kind of been a very creative person. Jillian: [00:02:57] Now were you a professional decorator back in Texas? KariAnne: [00:03:01] No, I'm actually a decorator from the School of Hard Knocks. I say in all my books, I made every decorating mistake in the entire world. And so I went before everybody and made them all so I could save people from them, from making mistakes that I made along the way. Jillian: [00:03:21] That is that is terrific. OK. I have to just confess we are moving from Palo Alto to Austin over the summer. So if anybody, by the way, has been listening to this and is in the Austin area, please reach out because again I'm looking for friends, but I am now thinking about decorating and so I have a whole new interest, so tell me the biggest mistake people make. Design advice from a style blogger KariAnne: [00:03:44] Oh I think the biggest mistake that people made is following trends like looking online and finding something that looks very trendy, or someone is telling them this is the way to decorate and they go that route and it's not really them and it doesn't fit. KariAnne: [00:04:01] It's like trying to put a square peg into a round hole. And I'm always like, just go with what you like. Like if the current trend right now is all neutral and you love hot pink carpeting, you go for it. Embrace that and live that because that's how you are going to make your home truly one that you love, is by embracing what is truly you. Jillian: [00:04:21] OK here's one question, I go on to Pinterest. Let's say I type in kitchen remodels and they all look, they're gorgeous but they all look the same. KariAnne: [00:04:32] I know right. Jillian: [00:04:35] I feel like I'm being biased by the fact that I need a farmhouse kitchen with a big white sink and white cabinetry and you know like some bar stools and I feel like I love that now but I can't tell if I really love it, or if I'm being brainwashed into loving it. And if in six months everybody is going to be doing something else. KariAnne: [00:05:01] I am kind of with you in that you're second guessing yourself but I am a big fan of keeping your design, big design, expensive design choices neutral. Jillian: [00:05:13] OK. KariAnne: [00:05:14] In other words. So when you're looking at your kitchen I think keeping your cabinets relatively neutral, whether it's a white or it's a gray. KariAnne: [00:05:21] I think keeping those relatively neutral keeping your countertops relatively neutral and if you love color you can do that in other ways. So you have your big ticket items in your kitchen and those are all relatively neutral. KariAnne: [00:05:34] And then you're like you know what, there's too much neutral. You can always pop it out with like textiles in the room or you could pop it out with beautiful floral arrangements or adding in greenery or just baskets and different fun things in the space to liven it up so that you're not going the complete farmhouse route. KariAnne: [00:05:52] However, if you get in there and you love the neutral, go with it! Not just because people are telling you. Decorate with your heart, like look in that space and say, "Is this space something I want to sit across the Thanksgiving table from?""Is this a space I want to live in every single day?" If it is, go with it. Jillian: [00:06:10] OK. But I just feel like somebody is going to walk in, like in five years somebody is going to walk into my house and go oh my God, it's so 2018. KariAnne: [00:06:19] You know what, there is a chance they might do that, but that's why I think sometimes just making small changes along the way is good. KariAnne: [00:06:28] For example, I'll just give you a little story for me, I was all about neutrals. I mean my farmhouse, if you look at it it was all neutrals all into that. And then we purchased this home the home I grew up in. KariAnne: [00:06:43] And all of a sudden it's like I'm feeling like it needs color, like I went with a neutral look and now I'm going back and adding in color, pops of color, just because it's what the house needs. And so what worked at that farmhouse, is not necessarily working in this house. Jillian: [00:06:59] OK so now we can get off of my own little design issues and get back to your story. KariAnne: [00:07:06] You could always message me if you have questions. Jillian: [00:07:08] OK I'm serious because I love your aesthetic and I feel like I'm kind of flailing except for Pinterest and everything looks the same. Jillian: [00:07:15] So all right, so you move out to Kentucky. You're in the middle of nowhere, you're lonely. You want community, you start this blog. KariAnne: [00:07:24] Yes. And I had no idea of the world of blogging I had no idea people made money off of it. I had no concept of that. I was just doing it to join a community. What are the business opportunities that come from blogging? KariAnne: [00:07:33] And along the way these incredible business opportunities presented themselves and I kind of put on my marketing hat and I started marketing the blog. Jillian: [00:07:41] So wait, explain, what are these tremendous business opportunities? KariAnne: [00:07:44] Well along the way I have worked with, like for example, last year I worked with 53 different brands. Jillian: [00:07:51] Okay. KariAnne: [00:07:52] And so anyone from Wayfair to Sherwin-Williams to Frogtape and I work with them in a variety of different ways with different collaborations. Some I'm working on photography with them. Jillian: [00:08:08] What do you mean you're working on photography with them? KariAnne: [00:08:11] Like for example they would send me products and I photograph the products in my home and then they use it in their social media. How to collaborate with brands as a blogger Jillian: [00:08:16] So it's not you're not posting, you're like a paid photographer. KariAnne: [00:08:21] Well sometimes, it depends on the collaboration. Every collaboration is different. Some collaborations they send me the product, I post about it. I show how I've decorated my home on my blog. And then I give them the assets the photography assets to use on their own social. KariAnne: [00:08:35] Sometimes I'm literally just taking pictures of the product at my home for them to use on their own social or on their web site or in a blog post. Jillian: [00:08:45] And do they tag you? Do people know this is you or in that respect you're like a gun for hire with a beautiful home and a great taste? KariAnne: [00:08:57] It depends. Most of the time if they're using my images it would be written into the contract that they would tag me because I own the rights to those photographs. I mean depending on the contract and what's negotiated. But yeah they for sure would tag me. Jillian: [00:09:11] Okay. Got it. So you're a blogger, brands are I guess reaching out to you? KariAnne: [00:09:18] Yes. Well it's a little bit of both. I think when you're a blogger you know I'm the Queen of Hustles so I'm always like "Who did I work with last year? Let me approach them and see if they're interested in a new collaboration." or a lot of times brands do reach out to me. KariAnne: [00:09:31] I mean, probably one of my best tips as a blogger is a lot of times with a brand, I'll work with their PR agency. And that PR agency may have another client besides the client that I'm working with. KariAnne: [00:09:44] And I will say to the PR agency, "hey I've got this Bathroom remodel coming up, hey I've got this kitchen remodel, hey I'm redoing my front room. Do you have any clients that are a good fit for that?" And some of my best collaborations I've gotten because I worked the PR contacts that I already had. Jillian: [00:10:01] Got it. And then you end up hopefully getting free product. KariAnne: [00:10:06] Yes. Again each collaboration with a brand is different. I mean sometimes I'm using products that they send to me, sometimes I'm designing an inspiration board for them. I mean each collaboration looks different but typically it does involve some sort of pre product. Jillian: [00:10:23] Got it. Okay. So I mean, that's always a way for you. Lifestyle bloggers style bloggers DIY bloggers. Isn't that a nice way to reach out to a brand and say "I'm redoing my kitchen" like reaching out to say Whirlpool or something like that, how would you do that? KariAnne: [00:10:46] If I was going to go through a major remodel. I know I have kind of a long time ago when I first started blogging, one of the promises I made to myself, kind of one of the guidelines that built my business on is I never put anything in my home just to blog about it because then it's not authentic. And the readers know that. KariAnne: [00:11:05] So I there's many collaborations that I've turned down just because they're not a fit for my brand. It's not something that would work in my house. KariAnne: [00:11:14] Back when I was all neutral all the time. I mean if if a company that had a very colorful aesthetic with like super cool graphic prints and things like that that might not necessarily work in my space then that's probably not a company that I would have worked with. How to reach out to brands as a blogger KariAnne: [00:11:29] So a long time ago just set that forth. So if I was going, let's say I'm doing a kitchen remodel and I worked with a tile company in the past I've worked with a countertop company in the past typically I would reach out to them. KariAnne: [00:11:43] I have a pretty extensive network of contacts now because I've been doing this for 6 years. I would reach out to them say, "hey this is what I'm doing, is this a fit with your marketing budget? Is this something that you might be interested in?" KariAnne: [00:11:55] And sometimes it's a fit and sometimes not so much and sometimes the parameters that they would have, you'd have to wait a couple of months and I need the tile right then and probably that might not be a good fit or I need a countertop right then and it might not be a good fit. KariAnne: [00:12:10] But typically you're reaching out to the brands and saying here's my project can you come alongside me and partner with me. Jillian: [00:12:18] That's great. So let's say you're doing a kitchen remodel. How many brands would you want to partner with you with your kitchen? KariAnne: [00:12:25] I think it depends on the extent of what you're doing and kind of who you have in contacts and what would be a good fit. KariAnne: [00:12:33] So for example in my kitchen that I just redid I chose to reuse existing cabinets that we already had rather than reaching out to a cabinet brand. KariAnne: [00:12:44] Just because I already had the cabinets and I'm kind of frugal girl. And so it made more of a fit to do a post and show the readers hey look these were cabinets from another area of the house that we just repurposed added molding to and kind of redesign them to look like brand new cabinets for the kitchen. KariAnne: [00:13:02] So I think that totally depends on the scope of your project and what you need for that project. Jillian: [00:13:09] Got it. OK so let's let's go back to your story. So you're living in Kentucky and then all of a sudden you end up, because of family illness right? You end up moving back home. KariAnne: [00:13:26] Yes. We had some illness come up in our family that was it's a little bit overwhelming and so they just needed us. I mean it was kind of like step up time. KariAnne: [00:13:36] And so we knew that it was they just needed us and we needed to be home so I said to my husband oh my gosh if there's any way we could get back the family home that would be totally amazing. KariAnne: [00:13:49] My mom had sold it about five years ago to a wonderful couple. And I called her up one day and said hey you don't really know me. I'm KariAnne, and I used to live in your house. I would love to buy it. Is there any chance that you would sell it to me? And she was like wait, KariAnne, do you write a blog? Jillian: [00:14:10] No way! KariAnne: [00:14:14] So yeah, she totally read the blog. She's amazing girl like oh my gosh super amazing girl and she said actually yes we would totally sell it to you. KariAnne: [00:14:24] They had some circumstances in their lives where they were actually it wasn't on the market or anything but amazing timing. And so yeah we bought it from them and just never even went on the market. Jillian: [00:14:36] Oh my God. Well first of all I have to say I've been boggling your name by calling you KariAnne. And it's KariAnne. KariAnne: [00:14:43] Oh no worries. Jillian: [00:14:44] OK. But that is amazing so, a couple of things. How did you feel leaving your house in Kentucky that you had then remodeled? KariAnne: [00:14:52] I was literally, they were like prying my fingers off of the front porch pillar. I was in an emotional relationship. Jillian: [00:15:01] Really. OK. KariAnne: [00:15:03] Now it helps it helps that this house is so amazing like that helped in that, you know I've lived a lifetime in this house. I don't know if I would have traded it for any other house but this house. But I did love that farmhouse. Oh my gosh it was one of a kind. Jillian: [00:15:18] And I recommend people go to your blog because you have photos of both your current house and your old house. Like definitely check it out. It's gorgeous. KariAnne: [00:15:27] Thank you so much. It's a labor of love. Both of them. Jillian: [00:15:31] OK so how long ago did you move home? KariAnne: [00:15:35] Thanksgiving. Jillian: [00:15:36] Oh OK. So relatively recently. KariAnne: [00:15:38] Yes. Very very recently and so we've kind of been in a mad dash to really remodel this house because when you're a blogger you know I need places to photograph and I need rooms that look cute. KariAnne: [00:15:51] And I actually wrote a post on my blog that said every day I wake up and I try to make the house cuter than it was yesterday. Like that's my goal. KariAnne: [00:16:04] So today, either I'm going to add pillows or I'm going to paint something or I'm going to switch a bookcase around or do something so it just made me feel so much better and miss my old house less every day. I took a small step to making it cuter than it was the day before so it's a process. Jillian: [00:16:23] And how is the cuteness factor now? KariAnne: [00:16:25] It's getting there. I mean it needs so much work. Like in my mind I can see it all done. I feel like I'm running a design marathon like, "I'm coming, don't worry house I'll show up you'll be cute soon!" It's getting there, it's getting there. Jillian: [00:16:44] I love your use of the word cute for your stuff. It's so sweet. I mean again life is all about change and uncertainty. But at least you can control the cuteness. KariAnne: [00:16:54] That is so true. The best story ever of the house, this is literally the best story. So when my mom sold it, I was of course emotionally attached to this house too. And so my mom said "I'm selling it" my father passes away and my mom it's just too much house for her. So she had to sell it. KariAnne: [00:17:09] So she goes to sell the house and I go on like a farewell tour of the rooms like "bye dining room, having Thanksgiving was so awesome" and like "bye staircase where I said hello to Santa Claus" and like "bye kitchen where I met my husband" you know like "go have a nice life". KariAnne: [00:17:24] And as I'm literally about to head out the back door there is this bathroom with a mirror. And it's this giant ornate antique mirror not even my style or anything. And I look at that mirror and I had stood in front of that mirror in my wedding dress. KariAnne: [00:17:40] I had waited for my husband put my lipstick on before our first date in front of that mirror, and something just comes over me and I literally grab the mirror and I run out of the door with it like I'm like throwing in my car driving back to Kentucky. KariAnne: [00:17:55] And when we bought the house back I brought back that mirror and I put it right back where it was. Oh and an even better ending to the story is I have little twins that are in ninth grade and they just went to their first dance and they were standing in front of the mirror putting on their lipstick. Jillian: [00:18:16] Oh. Oh. KariAnne: [00:18:19] I know! Dude, I'm like full circle. Jillian: [00:18:21] Oh that's so sweet. Wow great story. Great story. OK. So now the one thing I want to talk about is books because you are an author you've written how many books? How to get a book deal as a blogger KariAnne: [00:18:37] I have. There's five books in all. Two are on the market currently. Another one is releasing September of 2018 and then there's another full color coffee table book that releases in March of next year (2019). And then one more after that. Jillian: [00:18:58] So based on interviews I've done in the past on this podcast with people who've written books most people say "I write books because it's a labor of love". "I write books because it puts my brand out there and establishes me as an expert. But books are not moneymakers. Books are a way to launch myself". Jillian: [00:19:21] And when we were talking you said well that's not exactly been true for me that I've actually made money from my books. KariAnne: [00:19:27] Yes 100 percent. I think probably the most important component is, when you're looking at publishing a book there are many different routes. KariAnne: [00:19:38] There is of course self publishing where you would publish it yourself and you put out all the money upfront and then you sell publish and sell it and market it yourself. KariAnne: [00:19:49] Then there is kind of like a hybrid where you have a company that publishes the book for you and then they provide you with copies and then you purchase them at a discounted rate and then you sell them and they maybe help a little with marketing but not that much. KariAnne: [00:20:04] And the route that I went which is the one I recommend is traditional publishing. Is working with traditional publishing house and I have been so fortunate to work with two incredible publishers that will ever and forever have my heart. KariAnne: [00:20:22] And the reason why I went that route and probably my best advice for anyone looking to publish a book or thinking about publishing a book is number one: I think it's so important that you build a platform because when you're going to that publisher and you have a message that you're going to get out there to the world, you want to come alongside that publisher you want to talk with the publisher about how your going to help the publisher sell the book. KariAnne: [00:20:51] You are going to help the publisher markets a book. Because just I think traditionally in the past sometimes you know authors they would send the manuscript to the publisher and then they would kind of sit back and wait for the publisher to do all the work. KariAnne: [00:21:05] Or in the case of self publishing, I mean they would probably do a huge majority of the work themselves but it would be so expensive to put all that money up front to get your book published to design your cover and all the all of that stuff. KariAnne: [00:21:18] So my best advice would be to start with your platform. Work on developing your platform work on developing your message work on developing your print your brand. So when you go into meetings with that publishing house you can say "hey this is what I'm bringing to the table". KariAnne: [00:21:35] My second piece of advice would be to get an agent. I have the most incredible agent. So fortuitous to find her and she has just really been the world to me. KariAnne: [00:21:49] The agent kind of knows the ins and out of the publishing world and they give you great advice and they know which publishing houses. I mean they make recommendations they make contacts for you at publishing houses. How to develop your platform as a blogger KariAnne: [00:22:01] And really those two things work on you're developing a platform. You bring something to the table don't just go to the publishing house and expect them to do all the work you show up. Jillian: [00:22:12] OK. All right so let's unpack this a little bit. OK. You start your blog. You start working on your platform which means your email list your social media. You know growing those platforms. KariAnne: [00:22:32] I think it's more than when I say build a platform. I think that numbers are very important. I mean obviously if I'm coming to you and I say I have X amount of people on Facebook or X amount of people on Instagram you know I think that's definitely important. KariAnne: [00:22:47] But I think the key components that so many of us miss in this world of blogging and social media and platforms is the influence is the influence factor. So I always tell people if you gave me a thousand loyal readers I could rule the world. How to find one thousand true fans as a blogger KariAnne: [00:23:05] And when I say that, I mean a thousand people that want what I have, that want to hear my message, that show up every day and they stand up and they're counted. KariAnne: [00:23:15] So when I was looking at developing my brand and developing my platform those were the people that I was looking for. When I was growing my blog I treated those people like they were my customers. KariAnne: [00:23:28] So if they had a decorating question, I didn't charge them for decorating advice. I really gave it. I spent hours putting together ways to help them or answer anybody's question they sent me. KariAnne: [00:23:39] I think I have a thing on my blog where I say "calling all questions" this is an unlimited question policy here at Thistlewood Farms, because those readers are the customers. KariAnne: [00:23:48] And I think people overlook that they just put messages out there and expect, "I wonder why no one's reading me," or "Wonder why no one is responding to me?" KariAnne: [00:23:56] It's because they are not in a relationship with those readers. They are not treating those readers with the respect that they deserve. And so I went out of my way to build that sort of platform. Jillian: [00:24:07] I think that is terrific in fact if you read my emails you see that I have actually sent out I think two e-mails about this concept of a thousand true fans. If you have a thousand true fans you can build a business. Jillian: [00:24:23] You do not need millions of fans. You need true evangelists. People who love you, believe in you, will buy from you. That's what you need for a business. I think that is just terrific advice. KariAnne: [00:24:37] Well, and so what I did was so, for example, and this applies not only in the publishing world but it applies and in the brand world as well. So I'll just give you one example, when I was looking to paint my house a color I went to my fans and I went to the people that read the blog and I said "What color would you paint the house?" KariAnne: [00:24:55] I gave them six options and we had over 700 people chime in. Not for a prize, not because we were giving anything away just because they wanted to be helpful. They wanted to show up and represent. KariAnne: [00:25:08] So I was able to go back to that brand and say, look 700 people are invested in what color I paint. Jillian: [00:25:15] Wow. Wow. KariAnne: [00:25:16] And I think that is the key component. So when you're talking to publishing houses, I mean that same applies in working with brands as well. You're saying to them I'm an influencer. I have the ability to influence people's buying decisions and I think that is a key component that is so overlooked when you're dealing with anyone. Jillian: [00:25:39] What's interesting is when we first started talking, you said start with your platform. And I said oh you know social media, email list and you're like, "No no no wait," I thought you were going to say really clarify your message. But that's not what you said. ADVICE: Be authentic as a blogger Jillian: [00:25:56] You said be authentic, be available. Really, you focused it on your fans not on your business and what your message was. Which I think is a really interesting differentiator. KariAnne: [00:26:11] Well I definitely think the message is important. When I counsel people on how to start a business or how to start a blog I always tell them, start as you go, like don't don't pull the rug out from under your readers. KariAnne: [00:26:24] In other words don't be all this direction and then all of sudden change midstream and like one day you're positive, full of energy and the next day you're complaining, you know. KariAnne: [00:26:33] Start as you go, develop that message, be true to who you are. But I do feel like if you're authentic and you are all about the people that are reading your blog, or participating in your business, the message authentically comes out. Jillian: [00:26:49] I agree. I agree. Again I think that the focus on your audience your community is really powerful. KariAnne: [00:26:58] I mean I literally was in tears when my first book was released and it was a best seller and it was on Amazon. You know at the top of the list and it had like the best seller tag on it. KariAnne: [00:27:12] People were screen shotting it and sending it to me and I was weeping because all of these people they weren't just celebrating the book. They were coming along for the journey. They're like "how can we help you get your message out there?" KariAnne: [00:27:30] And so it was as if you sat down with a thousand of your best friends and they're like, dude how can we help you? Jillian: [00:27:37] Wow. KariAnne: [00:27:38] "You've helped us all these years, how can we help you?" And I have never felt so humbled and so grateful and so appreciative and in my whole life than during that first book release. Jillian: [00:27:48] So let's look at that. You're making me tear up here. KariAnne: [00:27:53] I love it. Jillian: [00:27:54] So let's talk about this. So from the beginning you are cultivating this community that you care deeply about and that therefore in turn cares deeply about you. Jillian: [00:28:05] So you say to yourself, I want to write a book. And then what? How do you get an agent? How do you pitch yourself to publishers? How do you tell that publisher, "I've got these diehard fans?" KariAnne: [00:28:18] I think before we unpack that, I think an important component here is and this is something I try to explain this to people, I wish I could tell you I was a super incredibly brilliant person that sat down with this totally mapped out plan to get to the book. But it was so organically grown. KariAnne: [00:28:36] So I start a blog. I'm writing about decorating and actually I'm writing about nothing. I'm kind of writing about my toes sometimes like I mean a very lame messaging going on. KariAnne: [00:28:48] One day I remember I wrote a post "Don't you think I have very long toes?" and people were like "you do have long toes!" and so I had to hone my message a little bit. KariAnne: [00:28:57] But over time what happened was one day I told a story about something just because I'm kind of a storyteller. But I'm a decorating blog so I was like, How am I going to incorporate these stories? Do people even care about stories like this even a thing? And no one else was telling stories. KariAnne: [00:29:15] And so I told a story on my blog and the response was incredible. People were like oh my gosh like this is crazy. Tell more stories. What else are you doing? What other funny story you have? What else is going on in your life? Write a blog you want to read KariAnne: [00:29:27] And then the blog became kind of this hybrid of I would talk to you and show you these beautiful decorating pictures and then randomly tell you a story about how I stepped in dog poop and it was just like organically grown because it was a kind of blog that I wanted to read. KariAnne: [00:29:43] I didn't want to read a blog that said here are my curtains. Here's my rug. I wanted to write. I wanted a little meat. I wanted something interesting to go along with my curtains. KariAnne: [00:29:56] And so that's how the stories were kind of born. So I mean I think in the back of my mind I always had a dream about writing a book but it wasn't until this story started really taking off and I saw that that amazing wonderful community of people that read the blog really responded to the stories. KariAnne: [00:30:12] It's like the decorating brought them to the blog and the lifestyle brought them to their blog. Jillian: [00:30:17] And the beautiful photos and aspiration tips and I get it. But there is more. There is you! KariAnne: [00:30:24] But then you show up and I'm like hey take a seat in my living room and let me tell you let me entertain you. Jillian: [00:30:30] Right. KariAnne: [00:30:32] Let me tell you how I'm sliding down a hill after I spoke at a conference and ended up with mud all over my butt. You know, let me entertain you with my life, like these real actual things that happen to me every day of my life. KariAnne: [00:30:44] And so it really that was the combination that people really responded to, and so I thought maybe I could write a book. But I didn't know how to go about it. KariAnne: [00:30:53] So I did a little bit of research and actually reached out to some friends of mine and one of my friends was in the process of writing a book and I said, "How did you get started?" KariAnne: [00:31:01] She said the first thing is you want to find an agent. And so she gave me a bunch of different literary agencies and I wrote the most incredible pitch letter ever. Jillian: [00:31:12] OK. KariAnne: [00:31:14] It was quite entertaining. And I sent it out to these agencies to see if anybody would take a bite because this is an unknown world to me, this is something that is very different. I'm so thankful an amazing agency picked me up and I met my agent and really she kind of mapped everything out. KariAnne: [00:31:33] She was really instrumental because I didn't know where to start and she sat me down and said we're going to do this, and we're going to do this, and we're gonna do this, and you know for example the next step is you have to write a book proposal. How to write a book proposal KariAnne: [00:31:42] Well a book proposal is very intimidating for anyone who's never written one before. I mean they say that's what separates kind of the serious people from the not so serious people because the typical book proposal is about 10,000 words. Jillian: [00:31:55] Wow. KariAnne: [00:31:55] So it took me probably about four months to write the book proposal which is, like it was overwhelming. And my agent, her name is Ruth, she kept gently nudging me like, "Hey haven't heard from you on that book proposal yet, how's it going?" KariAnne: [00:32:15] And I just kept going and putting one foot in front of the other. And I think probably the hardest thing about writing a book is when you write a blog post it's 350 words and there's a beginning a middle and an end and you're done and you walk away. When you write a book it's 50,000 words. KariAnne: [00:32:32] And it's a beginning and then a whole lot of words. And then a middle and then a whole lot of work and then the end. So you got to shift your thinking a little bit. KariAnne: [00:32:43] But we we did the proposal and then she sends it out to different contacts that she has in the publishing world. And then we got some bids on the book and we looked at them and selected an incredible offer and went with that. And then the whole book writing process started. Jillian: [00:33:02] OK and how long did the book writing process take? KariAnne: [00:33:05] Well I'm kind of a fast writer just because I mean you've got to think of it this way, I was in training to write a book. I mean I write five blog posts a week. So that's training yourself to sit at the computer and write 400 words every day or five days a week. KariAnne: [00:33:21] And so I had done that for year after year after year so when they told me, you have to sit down and here's when your first chapter is due and here's when your second chapter is due and I pretty much stuck to my deadline. KariAnne: [00:33:32] I hear in the world, I don't know this for a fact, but I had heard that a lot of sometimes people don't stick to their deadlines. Jillian: [00:33:38] I've heard that too. Yes. KariAnne: [00:33:40] They get overwhelming, but I was pretty on it. And so I think the whole process of actually writing the book maybe took about nine months. Jillian: [00:33:49] OK. And what is the first book called? The book: So Close To Amazing KariAnne: [00:33:53] The first book is called So Close To Amazing. And it's actually a memoir. It's a memoir so it's trade paper which in publishing house terms means like it's a book book, was like writing and it's not for color. There are words and chapters and that type of thing. Jillian: [00:34:13] So it's not just a DIY book? KariAnne: [00:34:15] No it's a like a memoir, it's about my life it's about us moving. It's the story that I told you except with way more stories along the way. Jillian: [00:34:24] OK. OK. KariAnne: [00:34:26] Way more adventures in about. It's all about at the end of the day, the overarching message of the book is learning how to celebrate right where we are and realizing that the me of today is perfect. KariAnne: [00:34:40] I mean I think so many times, and that's what this book is about: The book was, we jumped to the country and I expect when we moved to the country everything's going to be perfect, and I'm going to be growing my own grain and I arrive in the country like, "wait, life is not exactly how I thought it was going to be" and I thought I was going to make friends and that didn't exactly work out. KariAnne: [00:34:58] It was like I was always looking for this amazing. Like I was like, Oh tomorrow is going to be amazing, if we just finished the house I'm going to be amazing, if I could lose another like 20 pounds I'll be amazing, if my hair was a little longer I'd be amazing. KariAnne: [00:35:11] And along the way and part of this whole journey was I discovered that the amazing was right there. Jillian: [00:35:19] Wow. KariAnne: [00:35:19] The amazing was the journey. Jillian: [00:35:23] Wow. Yes. I love that. I love that. That's amazing! KariAnne: [00:35:32] So I had been so close to amazing all along. There's the book. Jillian: [00:35:37] Right. So this book though, did it have photos of your beautiful house? Did it also have DIY? Or was it really just about your journey? KariAnne: [00:35:48] Well you know you read those books and at the end of each of the chapters they'll have a recipe. Jillian: [00:35:56] Yes, Ruth Reichl is one of my favorite writers and she's a food writer and she always puts her favorite recipes. KariAnne: [00:36:03] Yes. And so you always think you can have these recipes. Well when you read the book you'll understand I'm a horrific cook. Like I mean absolutely positively horrible cook. And so there was no putting any recipes like that would have been horrible. KariAnne: [00:36:19] So I put DIYs at the end of each chapter that I talk about in each of the chapters I work that DIY into the chapter. Jillian: [00:36:27] I love that. I love that. KariAnne: [00:36:30] And at the end is a DIY. The book is also full of total asides which is the way I talk, so I'll be in the middle of a story and then I'll be like total aside. Did you really like Shaun Cassidy when you were younger? You know like, why random thoughts, people were like wait where was she going? Jillian: [00:36:46] Oh that's terrific. KariAnne: [00:36:48] So yeah it's a little, I don't know if you remember there was a lady named Erma Bombeck. Jillian: [00:36:51] Yes yes. KariAnne: [00:36:53] It's a little like her. Jillian: [00:36:54] Oh OK. So you launched this first book. And again what I think is so interesting is, yes you are DIY, yes you have a great eye, yes you take beautiful photos, but there's a there there. Jillian: [00:37:08] There's a you with a message and you're living your life and you're sharing your life and you're going that extra mile, you're connecting. Blogging for comments and connection KariAnne: [00:37:18] Yes. Well I have been so blessed. It all started with the first little person who left a comment on my blog. And then you know some people blog for money some people blog for their egos. I blog for comments. Jillian: [00:37:34] Yeah. KariAnne: [00:37:36] Shameful. Jillian: [00:37:36] No, I get it. Oh my god I get like if if somebody emails me and says "I read your email" and it was somebody today, just emailed me and said "I really need it" Jillian: [00:37:47] It was something about I wrote an email. It's a sequence and there's one about Instagram, and it's like you have to show up for Instagram and somebody wrote back to me goes, "I really needed to hear this today." And I sit here and I just read that and I go "awww" and I write back and I just go "thank you so much." KariAnne: [00:38:05] Wow. Right. Jillian: [00:38:09] I love those. And I have a file I save called Love Letters where I will go through them on a bad day and I'll read them. KariAnne: [00:38:19] Me too! OK. Mine isn't called love letters. Mine is called KariAnne You're Amazing. Jillian: [00:38:27] Because there is something about it. Even why I love the podcast, just because I get to connect. And then if other people get to hear it and learn from it. I'm so happy about that. Jillian: [00:38:39] But at the end of the day, like being a blogger can be lonely having a company or multiple companies. It can be lonely. And so if I can hear other people's stories and if I can impart little bits of wisdom by being in the trenches. You know I feel like I've done my job for the day. KariAnne: [00:39:02] Well OK so I'm going to be totally shameful and transparent here. So sometimes I write a blog post especially if it's a good story. KariAnne: [00:39:10] And when you email me when you comment on the blog it leaves it has an email that comes through on my phone. And so I'll set the post to publish. And every time there's an email the phone will ding. KariAnne: [00:39:23] So the the post will go live. I don't know maybe seven and go out by email by like 7:15 and I lay there and I hear. Ding! Ding! Ding! And I'm like Yay! KariAnne, they're commenting! So yeah there's no greater joy for sure. Jillian: [00:39:42] I agree. And I think that there's you know what's so interesting is in every one of my podcasts I feel like I learn, and I step away with like a new realization and I feel like from this conversation that realization is the more you put yourself out there, and be vulnerable and be human the more you welcome people putting themselves out there and being human. KariAnne: [00:40:11] I 100 percent agree and I think what being online so much has taught me is that we live in a world where there are so many people that are hurting, and there are so many people that are not being heard. They're not being validated. KariAnne: [00:40:27] And you know it's almost like they're walking through life without someone taking a moment to say, "Hey look you're amazing. You got it." KariAnne: [00:40:36] And there is a post I wrote one time and I said the first line of it I think is just "In case no one else had mentioned it yet today like no one has said it. You're a rock star." Like let me be that person. Let me go first. You're incredible. You're funny. There is something you can do better than anyone else in this entire world. KariAnne: [00:40:54] And the response to that post was incredible because I feel like we as human beings have this longing for connection and we want our voices to be heard and we want people to understand us. KariAnne: [00:41:10] And so when somebody comes along and goes hey I'm gonna love you right where you're at. I'm going to accept you right where you are. I think that that is such an important message. Jillian: [00:41:20] And I think because we are so hard on ourselves. I was just having this conversation with somebody, I was at the Mom2.0 conference and I was talking to a woman and we were talking about if somebody could hear our own voices in her own heads, how horrified they would be. Jillian: [00:41:39] You know the messages we are telling ourselves of were not good enough and we're not thin enough and we're not young enough or good whatever, if somebody could hear that they would stop you and say "Stop it!" Jillian: [00:41:53] That is abusive, but somehow it's OK for us to do it within ourselves because nobody really can really hear it. And so this idea of, if only I could, like you, If only I could finish my house. If only I could move to the country and grow my own grains. I will be happy. Happiness has to happen right now Jillian: [00:42:20] And it's about really changing that perspective of saying no, happiness has to happen right now. KariAnne: [00:42:26] Well and it's funny, because back when I was telling you about the house trying to make the house cuter. I actually wrote a post on the blog and I had the twins for their first dance. KariAnne: [00:42:36] I had all these parents coming over. They were doing like a pre-dance party at our house and we hadn't really shown the house to anybody, and I spent days and days trying to make the house cute. KariAnne: [00:42:48] I would be like. "Come on House we're going to show them. We're going to show them we're cute." I was painting walls and putting up curtains and doing all this, and you know what happened? KariAnne: [00:43:00] People got here, and they walked around the house and all of a sudden these two beautiful adorable sweet identical twin daughters came down the stairs with their hearts in their eyes and these beautiful smiles on their faces. And no one's paying attention of the house, right. Jillian: [00:43:19] Right. Yes. You just gave me goosebumps. KariAnne: [00:43:21] The house was already cute enough. It was already cute enough. And here I was so obsessed and worrying about that, when I should have just paused and thought you know what the house and I were on a journey, and here are these beautiful girls and the day really is about them. Not about making your house cute right. Jillian: [00:43:41] Right. Oh I love that. Oh I love that. I want to say I have learned so much from you. KariAnne: [00:43:51] Oh I love that because I'm a little in awe of you. I could I could just sit at your feet and learn from you for sure ,you are amazing with everything you have accomplished. Jillian: [00:44:02] We will have to do a part two for sure. KariAnne: [00:44:05] Oh that would be awesome. Jillian: [00:44:06] So tell people, because again, we have much more to talk about. So tell people about your books and the books that are coming and then how people can reach out to you. Because what I love is you're available. KariAnne: [00:44:21] Yes 100 percent. So the first book is called So Close To Amazing and it's a memoir. It's a faith based book. I touch on my faith in the book. It's a faith based publisher called Tyndale. KariAnne: [00:44:34] This second book is all about decorating. It's called the DIY Decorate It Yourself Planner and it's literally the sassy girl's guide to decorating. KariAnne: [00:44:45] One of the chapters starts and it says, space planning is a lot like wearing Spanx to your high school reunion, like absolutely necessary. So there's a lot of like not intimidating. I kind of bring you along with me on my journey of decorating this house. KariAnne: [00:45:05] There are very specific things in there, like specific guidelines for how to choose a paint color, and how to plan out your spaces and how high to hang your chandelier over your dining room table and amazing stuff like that. KariAnne: [00:45:18] And the third book is actually a devotional book. Jillian: [00:45:20] Okay wait, I need that book. I need that book as we make our move to Austin. KariAnne: [00:45:25] OK. It's yours. I'll send it to you. Jillian: [00:45:27] I know nothing. I know nothing about the chandelier. KariAnne: [00:45:30] And I'll be available on speed dial. Jillian: [00:45:32] OK. I love it. I love it. I love it. OK. KariAnne: [00:45:37] You are kinda my neighbor. Jillian: [00:45:37] Yes. Oh my God. We will meet up together. KariAnne: [00:45:41] Yeah for sure. KariAnne: [00:45:43] The third book that's coming out. It's a devotional book but it's all just stories of encouragement. And it's called You've Got This Because God's Got You. KariAnne: [00:45:53] And then the last or the fourth book is actually, which I'm so excited about, I cannot wait for you to see it. It's a four color beautiful coffee table book. And it's called The Style Finder and it's, we traveled all over the country and photographed different bloggers houses. KariAnne: [00:46:12] And there's a whole questionnaire with what's your style? What your decorating style? And then we walk you through. Once you're we kind of pick out what's your favorite decorating style. We walk through, like here's your living room in this style. Here's your bedroom in the style. Here's your bathroom in the style and tips to kind of combine styles, too. Jillian: [00:46:29] OK that's fabulous. OK so then how can people reach out to you? KariAnne: [00:46:36] They can email me at Thistlewoodfarms.com. If you go on there, there's a contact form that they can just get right to me, or they can actually my email address is thistlewoodfarms@yahoo.com but they can go to the blog Thistlewoodfarms.com and there's a contact form. KariAnne: [00:46:52] And they can message me on Facebook, if they want to message me on Instagram with any decorating questions, I seriously could talk decorating, I mean till the cows come home as we say in Kentucky. And that's true. You come home. Jillian: [00:47:11] Thank you so much for being on the show. KariAnne: [00:47:14] It was absolutely my joy and my honor. Get more Instagram followers fast and free with MiloTree! Jillian: [00:47:19] Are you trying to grow your social media followers and e-mail subscribers. Well if you've got two minutes I've got a product for you. Jillian: [00:47:26] It's MiloTree. Jillian: [00:47:28] MiloTree is a smart pop up slider that you install on your site and it pops up and asks visitors to follow you on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, Pinterest or subscribe to your list. Jillian: [00:47:43] It takes two minutes to install. We offer a WordPress plugin or a simple line of code and it's Google friendly on mobile and desktop so we know where your traffic is coming from. Jillian: [00:47:55] We show a Google friendly pop up on desktop and a smaller Google friendly pop up on mobile. Check it out. Sign up today and get your first 30 days free. Sign up for MiloTree now and get your first 30 DAYS FREE!