Listening to America

Frequent guest Beau Breslin of Skidmore College and one of his prize students, Prairie Gunnels, talk about a capstone project for Beau’s Introduction to American Politics Course, in which students used the AI tool, ChatGPT, to write a new constitution for each of the seven generations that now share American soil. Professor Breslin is fully aware of the disruptive nature of Artificial Intelligence in the university classroom. Still, he decided to harness it for the good and encourage his students to use it responsibly to gather data essential to any possible new Constitution of the United States. Prairie Gunnels explained the methodology she used to give ChatGPT the information it needed to compose these draft constitutions. It turns out, for example, that on the whole, each generation wants to preserve the right to keep and bear arms. However, younger generations are much more comfortable with installing regulations to prevent mass shootings and mayhem. We discussed how to constitute a new generation of “founders,” provide them with the necessary information to draft a constitution, and then create a ratification system that is fair and representative. This podcast was recorded on July 10, 2025.

Clay’s conversation with popular guest Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky on Patrick Henry. Henry began his life as a shopkeeper but rose to become the governor of Virginia and one of the handful of most essential rabble-rousers in the American Revolution. Henry and Jefferson were frenemies; at one point, Jefferson (the Deist) said to his friend Madison, “We must pray for Henry’s death.” This quip was likely a joke, but Jefferson was quite critical of Henry, and he never forgave him for initiating a legislative investigation into Jefferson’s conduct as the beleaguered wartime governor of Virginia. Henry refused to attend the Constitutional Convention in 1787 because, he said, “he smelt a rat.” He opposed ratification in Virginia, but when Jefferson and Madison were considering secession in 1798 and 1799, Henry declared to George Washington that the constitutional settlement must not be disturbed by the Jeffersonians. This episode was recorded live on May 16, 2025. *Note, we posted this description in error for the podcast episode published on June 9, 2025.  

Clay’s conversation with Harvey Leake, the great-grandson of the pioneering southwestern archaeologists John and Louisa Wetherill. Harvey tells the story of former President Theodore Roosevelt’s 1913 visit to the Four Corners region. First, TR and his sons Archie, age 19, Quentin, age 15, and their cousin Nicholas Roosevelt, age 20, rode through the Grand Canyon and up to the North Rim, where they hunted mountain lions. Then, they made an arduous horseback journey to Rainbow Bridge, the sacred site in the heart of Navajo country. Finally, they visited the Hopi world, where TR and his young companions observed the sacred snake dance and got into the underground kiva, where scores of rattlesnakes slithered around. Harvey Leake has dozens of family photographs of this 1913 Roosevelt adventure. It's a strenuous life story that could not possibly be connected to any other president of the United States. Recorded May 25, 2025.

Clay’s interview with Jay Carson, the executive director of the Boulder Outdoor Survival School (BOSS), located in remote Boulder, Utah. Jay Carson had a long and successful political career, including stints with Chuck Schumer, Howard Dean, and Bill Bradley. Jay has also had a successful career as a Hollywood screenwriter. But his life changed when he took the 14-day Boulder Outdoor Survival School course in southeastern Utah. He's not done with Hollywood yet, but his main work now is as the CEO of BOSS. Meanwhile, just a few weeks ago in January, he was in Australia when the house he shares with his wife and four children burned down north of Los Angeles. He’s an amazing man. Clay and Jay discuss whether some form of national service can help turn our republic around. Program recorded April 22, 2025.

Clay’s conversation with Dr. Cassandra Newby-Alexander, professor of history at Norfolk State University in Virginia, about the status of race relations in America as we approach our 250th birthday. How should we read Thomas Jefferson's great sentence, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal”? Did Jefferson mean what he wrote? How accountable should we hold the Founding Fathers for making race a fundamental issue and condition of American life? Was Jefferson right or wrong when he said he was skeptical that we could ever be a biracial republic? Finally, what does the future look like to a distinguished African American scholar from Norfolk, Virginia?

Clay interviews the southwestern crime novelist Anne Hillerman, now publishing her 10th novel about crime-solving in the land of the Navajo in Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, and Colorado. Anne is the daughter of the acclaimed and bestselling Tony Hillerman, who wrote 19 novels before he died in 2008. Anne decided to carry on the tradition, and her success has been extraordinary. We talked about what it is like to be the child of a great author, how her style differs from that of her father, and why she took one of her father’s minor characters, Bernadette Manuelito, and transformed her into a major figure in her work. We talked about the delicacy of non-Native writing about the Navajo world, about landscape and spirit of place, the universality of human nature, and the particularities of different cultures. We discussed the popular Hollywood TV series Dark Winds, which adapts the work of both Hillermans, Tony, and Anne.

Clay’s live conversation with Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky on Religious Freedom. Clay and Lindsay met in person at The Historic Christ Church and Museum in Weems, Virginia to discuss the history of religous freedom in the United States. They talk about how many Presidents have shared the faith, why there was an effort to separate the church and state from the beginning, and then take questions from a live audience.  This episode was recorded live May 16, 2025.

Clay’s conversation with writer Craig Childs of western Colorado. Childs is the author of more than a dozen books about America’s backcountry. He’s spent months, even years, exploring the Grand Canyon and a hundred lesser but magnificent canyons in desert country. Childs has been a river runner, a guide, and a consultant, but mostly, he is a writer of beautiful, spare, sometimes mystical prose about the Colorado Plateau. Clay and Craig talked about how he became a writer, about taking risks in the backcountry, being lost, and getting oneself lost. They also discuss the great 19th-century explorer John Wesley Powell, Henry David Thoreau, and Edward Abbey — the author of the enormously influential book Desert Solitaire. Childs is currently wandering through mountain lion country in western Colorado, trying to understand the ways of these magnificent creatures. You’ll love this quiet discussion of things unrelated to America’s current politics. This interview was recorded March 20, 2025.

Guest host Russ Eagle interviews Clay Jenkinson about the forthcoming eight-part History Channel series, Kevin Costner's The West. Clay was interviewed as a historical expert twice for the series produced by Doris Kearns Goodwin and featuring Kevin Costner. Clay explains his intensive preparations to participate in a documentary by Ken Burns or Doris Kearns Goodwin, the books he reads, notes he compiles, and passages he memorizes. Russ and Clay discuss several of the series' episodes: Lewis and Clark, John Colter's famous 1809 run for his life; the abduction of young Cynthia Ann Parker by the Comanche and her subsequent rescue; and John Brown's anti-slavery raids against Missouri plantations and his 1859 assault on Harpers Ferry. This podcast was recorded on May 4, 2025.

Clay Jenkinson interviews Jonathan Thompson, the author of books about the American West, including Sagebrush Empire: How a Remote Utah County Became the Battlefront of American Public Lands. Thompson has written much about the pushback of western ranchers, irrigators, mining interests, and chambers of commerce against federal regulation (and even federal ownership) of the public lands in the West. How should we balance the varied interests in the West: agriculture, mining, motorized recreation, backpack recreation, Native American interests, and America's deep addiction to carbon extraction? Who should be at the table? Clay asked Thompson to look at the West from 38,000 feet and offer his predictions of its future in the second half of the 21st century. Will President Trump achieve his goal of privatizing whole swaths of the public domain?