Listening to America

One of Clay's favorite historians, Joe Ellis, has just published his 14th book, The Great Contradiction: The Tragic Side of the American Founding. His latest volume attempts to make sense of the twin failures of the revolutionary era: the failure to end slavery in the United States and the founders' inability to respect and protect the homelands and sovereignty of Native Americans. How could the founders have been so dedicated to the principles of liberty, equality, and the rights of humankind and permitted themselves to be hypocrites on these fundamental issues? Joe's book is an attempt to chasten some of the wilder claims of the 1619 Project, which argues that America has been a racist and even white supremacist nation from the beginning, and all that talk about the "rights of man" is just self-serving rhetoric. This is not the view of Joe Ellis. This episode was recorded on October 28, 2025.

The two intrepid British adventurers, Natalia and Mikey, who came to America to float the entire Missouri and Mississippi River corridor in a canoe, have checked in from St. Louis, where they arrived on the 108th day of their incredible journey. They are pleased to have floated 2,341 miles from Three Forks, Montana, to the mouth of the Missouri at St. Louis. The main takeaway so far, except for the fantastic adventure they have undertaken together, is the hospitality and generosity of the people of the American heartland. They call them River Angels, who provide portaging of the canoe, food, meals in actual restaurants, shelter, and anything else Nat and Mikey need. They might have packed it in at St. Louis, but like Lewis and Clark, they show undaunted courage and are determined to float all the way to New Orleans — and beyond, all the way to the Gulf. It's a sweet and informative mid-journey report from just under the Gateway Arch in St. Louis. This episode was recorded on November 24, 2025.

Guest host Nolan Johnson and Clay talk about the history of Thanksgiving, or what John Adams might call the uses and misuses of the Thanksgiving holiday. They explore the origins of American Thanksgiving, beginning with the pilgrims of 1621, through the Civil War, and into the 20th century's additions to Thanksgiving — the parades, the NFL game, Black Friday, and its further encroachments. Clay and Nolan talk about their own Thanksgiving observances, in their families and beyond, and our memories of particularly satisfying or dramatic Thanksgivings. Thanksgiving is perhaps the only time in the calendar when almost everyone in America says some form of grace before tucking into that vast feast. Is Velveeta a legitimate cheese? Is turkey essential? What about the crazy uncle who offends almost everyone, and the college freshman — just home from university — who is now a Marxist who thinks the whole ritual is colonialist?

Frequent guest host David Horton and Clay discuss America's current political paralysis and the deep frustration and cynicism of the American people in the wake of the No Kings protests of late October, which took place in 2,700 communities across the United States. If millions of people take to the streets to protest what they regard as the excesses of the current administration, are they likely to make a difference? What would it take to convince this or any other administration that it is not representing the best interests of a significant portion of the American public? Clay and David discuss the protests of the Civil Rights Movement in the 1960s, in particular Martin Luther King, Jr.'s commitment to nonviolent disruption of American life. Voter turnout and civic participation are lower in the United States than in the rest of the world. What would it take to inspire a mass movement that would change the course of American public life? Clay suggests that everyone read Thoreau's On Civil Disobedience and Martin Luther King's Letter from a Birmingham Jail. This episode was recorded on October 21 2025.

Clay talks with veteran NASA astronaut Tom Jones, who flew four Space Shuttle missions for a total of 53 days, 49 minutes in space. Clay outlined a list of issues related to the Lewis and Clark Expedition of 1804-06, including propulsion, navigation, food, waste management, record-keeping, and re-entry, and explained how Lewis and Clark addressed these dynamics. Then, Tom Jones explained how these concepts are applied in space. Topics included religious activity in space, romance in space, mutiny in space, the wonder of going where no man has gone before, recruitment, training, and re-entry. Tom Jones is the author of half a dozen books, including the acclaimed Skywalking: An Astronaut's Memoir. He believes we owe it to the four remaining lunar surface astronauts that we land again on the moon before the last of them dies. This episode was recorded on September 30, 2025.

Clay and his popular guest, Lindsay Chervinsky, discuss the history of American presidents and the fourth estate. Almost all presidents are frustrated by a free press, and some have attempted to censor it. Beginning with George Washington (who was thin-skinned but did not strike out at the opposition), through Adams and Jefferson, and all the way to Richard Nixon, the First Amendment has been a casualty of real or perceived national and international crises. The Sedition Act of 1798 and the Espionage Act of 1918 have much in common. Thomas Jefferson, as usual, said all the right things about the importance of a free press, but he also encouraged the governor of Pennsylvania to undertake a few wholesome prosecutions of the most vitriolic Federalist newspapers. Generally speaking, after periods of censorship during national security crises, the pendulum swings back to the center. This program aims to provide historical context and clarity amid our own First Amendment crisis. This episode was recorded on October 17, 2025.

Clay and historian Beau Breslin discuss the doctrine of habeas corpus and its role in the current debate about how to handle undocumented immigrants in the United States. In a nutshell, habeas corpus means "hey, produce the body." You cannot just arbitrarily snatch someone off the street and make them disappear. Habeas corpus was so important to the Founding Fathers that they embedded it in the first Article of the Constitution, right off the top, and did not postpone it to the Bill of Rights. The United States has a mixed history of its adherence to the doctrine of habeas corpus, which Beau Breslin believes is THE fundamental right in America and all over the world. And yet, Professor Breslin, who teaches at an elite college in New York state, admitted that the majority of his students, even in a class on constitutional theory, would probably be unable to define just what habeas corpus means, where it came from, and why it is critically important to a free and enlightened society. This episode was recorded on September 12, 2025.

Clay's conversation with Nat and Mikey, schoolteachers from Britain, who are floating down the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers from Three Forks, Montana, all the way to St. Louis and beyond, with hopes of ending in New Orleans around the time of Mardi Gras. They recount their adventures so far. At the time of the interview, they were just north of Pierre, South Dakota, staying for one night in a resort motel on Lake Oahe. What have they learned about America, about Lewis and Clark, about Native Americans, about their relationship, and about themselves? They capsized on day two just north of Three Forks, but have managed to stay upright ever since, and they are confident they will be able to float all the way to the mouth of the Mississippi. This episode was recorded on September 30, 2025.

Clay and his friend Russ Eagle discuss John Steinbeck's 1960 Travels with Charley tour of America from within Steinbeck's truck camper Rocinante. Thanks to the great generosity of the folks at the National Steinbeck Center in Salinas, Clay and his Steinbeckian friend Russ were permitted to do the podcast at the dinette table of the pickup camper. They told the story of how Steinbeck purchased the camper—then a novelty—, how he used it as a metaphor for his travels in search of America, what happened to it after his transcontinental journey, and how it eventually found its way to the National Steinbeck Center in Salinas, California, where John Steinbeck grew up. Clay and Russ were able to report their discovery in the Center's archives of a document that shows just when Steinbeck returned home after his three month trek—thus solving one of the questions historians have had about the whimsical journey with his French poodle Charley. This episode was recorded live on September 27, 2025.

Guest host David Horton talks with President Thomas Jefferson about the United States as the nation approaches its 250th birthday. Horton asks Jefferson to explain his vision of America, to assess its successes and failures in his own time, and then to observe and reflect on the United States today. Aside from a ruinous and swelling national debt, Jefferson seemed most concerned by the breakdown of the "checks and balances" that are vital to the survival of a republic. Other topics included the true meaning of the phrase "pursuit of happiness," America's place in the world, the loss of civics and ethical training in our schools, and the death of family agriculture. Mr. Jefferson affirmed that July 4, 1776, is one of the most important dates in human history, possibly the most important date in the history of liberty. He was quick to add, however, that he did not mean to call attention to himself in invoking the Fourth of July. This episode was recorded on September 13, 2025.