Listening to America

Clay's conversation with historian Louis Masur about his new book A Journey North: Jefferson, Madison, & the Forging of a Friendship. In 1791, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison went on a monthlong tour of New England. They were weary from their struggles with Alexander Hamilton for the soul of America. They needed a vacation, but as exemplars of the Enlightenment, they wanted to do some "botanizing," as they put it. They were interested in studying the Hessian Fly, which was devastating New England wheat production and seemed to be heading south to Maryland and Virginia. They wanted, like most tourists, to see American Revolution battlefields. They had been friends for more than a dozen years, but this journey deepened their political partnership. The Federalists accused them of making the journey to stir up political opposition to the Hamiltonian fiscal program; however, they were mostly exploring a part of America about which they knew little.

Clay and his good friend Russ Eagle discuss the rivers Lewis and Clark traveled from Pittsburgh to the Pacific Ocean, including the Ohio, the Mississippi, the Missouri, the Clearwater, the Snake, and the Columbia. The paradox of Clay’s 2025 Airstream journey along the Lewis and Clark Trail is that they floated America’s rivers, and Clay has been driving along the roads closest to those rivers. To overcome this, he has contrived ways to get on the rivers of the expedition. In North Dakota, he floated for three days in a pontoon from Fort Rice to Bismarck with two young comrades. Just north of Yellowstone National Park, he and his friends, including his daughter and her fiancé, took a day-long raft trip on the Upper Yellowstone, where it remains a whitewater stream. As they recorded this podcast, Clay and Russ, plus 20 others, were about to float the famous White Cliffs section of the Missouri, east of Fort Benton, Montana. And Clay plans to get passage on an excursion boat near the mouth of the great Columbia River. Why are rivers so important to Clay? What is it about the source of mighty rivers that so engages his historical imagination? This podcast was recorded on July 20, 2025.

Clay interviews Megan Gorman, the author of the excellent new book, All the President’s Money: How the Men who Governed America Governed their Money. Gorman is a nationally respected money manager for some of the wealthiest Americans. She thought it would be interesting to explore the way American presidents have handled their finances, before, during, and after their time in office. Gerald Ford is a pivotal figure in this regard, because he left the presidency as a young man and had to find a way to make a living beyond the White House. But we spent most of our time talking about George Washington and Thomas Jefferson as bookends in this history: Washington was a brilliant money manager. In fact, says Gorman, he is the richest president if you equalize currency values. Jefferson was a deplorable money manager. He died helplessly in debt. In fact, his daughter Martha had to live on public charity after his death in 1826. And yet, no president was as publicly frugal as Jefferson. In this as in all things, Jefferson was a paradox. This episode was recorded on August 4, 2025.

Clay’s conversation with Claire Martin, who hiked the entire Pacific Crest Trail in 2020, more than 2,400 miles through some of the most rugged landscapes in America. Claire was a 2018 graduate of Thomas Jefferson’s University of Virginia. Without quite knowing why, she set out for the Mexican border with a 35-pound pack and began the long journey to Canada. It’s an amazing story of a young woman who doesn’t seem to be afraid of much, who undertook one of the planet’s great adventures and lived to tell the tale. In the high Sierra, just for the fun of it, she and her companions climbed to the top of Mount Whitney, at 14,505 feet, the highest point in the lower 48 states. Claire spent about half of her great journey alone and half with others. She learned things about life and her own life that could only be discovered in this way. Claire now works at Phantom Ranch at the bottom of the Grand Canyon. Recorded May 29, 2025.

Frequent guest Beau Breslin of Skidmore College and one of his prize students, Prairie Gunnels, talk about a capstone project for Beau’s Introduction to American Politics Course, in which students used the AI tool, ChatGPT, to write a new constitution for each of the seven generations that now share American soil. Professor Breslin is fully aware of the disruptive nature of Artificial Intelligence in the university classroom. Still, he decided to harness it for the good and encourage his students to use it responsibly to gather data essential to any possible new Constitution of the United States. Prairie Gunnels explained the methodology she used to give ChatGPT the information it needed to compose these draft constitutions. It turns out, for example, that on the whole, each generation wants to preserve the right to keep and bear arms. However, younger generations are much more comfortable with installing regulations to prevent mass shootings and mayhem. We discussed how to constitute a new generation of “founders,” provide them with the necessary information to draft a constitution, and then create a ratification system that is fair and representative. This podcast was recorded on July 10, 2025.

Clay’s conversation with popular guest Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky on Patrick Henry. Henry began his life as a shopkeeper but rose to become the governor of Virginia and one of the handful of most essential rabble-rousers in the American Revolution. Henry and Jefferson were frenemies; at one point, Jefferson (the Deist) said to his friend Madison, “We must pray for Henry’s death.” This quip was likely a joke, but Jefferson was quite critical of Henry, and he never forgave him for initiating a legislative investigation into Jefferson’s conduct as the beleaguered wartime governor of Virginia. Henry refused to attend the Constitutional Convention in 1787 because, he said, “he smelt a rat.” He opposed ratification in Virginia, but when Jefferson and Madison were considering secession in 1798 and 1799, Henry declared to George Washington that the constitutional settlement must not be disturbed by the Jeffersonians. This episode was recorded live on May 16, 2025. *Note, we posted this description in error for the podcast episode published on June 9, 2025.  

Clay’s conversation with Harvey Leake, the great-grandson of the pioneering southwestern archaeologists John and Louisa Wetherill. Harvey tells the story of former President Theodore Roosevelt’s 1913 visit to the Four Corners region. First, TR and his sons Archie, age 19, Quentin, age 15, and their cousin Nicholas Roosevelt, age 20, rode through the Grand Canyon and up to the North Rim, where they hunted mountain lions. Then, they made an arduous horseback journey to Rainbow Bridge, the sacred site in the heart of Navajo country. Finally, they visited the Hopi world, where TR and his young companions observed the sacred snake dance and got into the underground kiva, where scores of rattlesnakes slithered around. Harvey Leake has dozens of family photographs of this 1913 Roosevelt adventure. It's a strenuous life story that could not possibly be connected to any other president of the United States. Recorded May 25, 2025.

Clay’s interview with Jay Carson, the executive director of the Boulder Outdoor Survival School (BOSS), located in remote Boulder, Utah. Jay Carson had a long and successful political career, including stints with Chuck Schumer, Howard Dean, and Bill Bradley. Jay has also had a successful career as a Hollywood screenwriter. But his life changed when he took the 14-day Boulder Outdoor Survival School course in southeastern Utah. He's not done with Hollywood yet, but his main work now is as the CEO of BOSS. Meanwhile, just a few weeks ago in January, he was in Australia when the house he shares with his wife and four children burned down north of Los Angeles. He’s an amazing man. Clay and Jay discuss whether some form of national service can help turn our republic around. Program recorded April 22, 2025.

Clay’s conversation with Dr. Cassandra Newby-Alexander, professor of history at Norfolk State University in Virginia, about the status of race relations in America as we approach our 250th birthday. How should we read Thomas Jefferson's great sentence, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal”? Did Jefferson mean what he wrote? How accountable should we hold the Founding Fathers for making race a fundamental issue and condition of American life? Was Jefferson right or wrong when he said he was skeptical that we could ever be a biracial republic? Finally, what does the future look like to a distinguished African American scholar from Norfolk, Virginia?

Clay interviews the southwestern crime novelist Anne Hillerman, now publishing her 10th novel about crime-solving in the land of the Navajo in Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, and Colorado. Anne is the daughter of the acclaimed and bestselling Tony Hillerman, who wrote 19 novels before he died in 2008. Anne decided to carry on the tradition, and her success has been extraordinary. We talked about what it is like to be the child of a great author, how her style differs from that of her father, and why she took one of her father’s minor characters, Bernadette Manuelito, and transformed her into a major figure in her work. We talked about the delicacy of non-Native writing about the Navajo world, about landscape and spirit of place, the universality of human nature, and the particularities of different cultures. We discussed the popular Hollywood TV series Dark Winds, which adapts the work of both Hillermans, Tony, and Anne.