Find Your Dream Job: Insider Tips for Finding Work, Advancing your Career, and Loving Your Job

Writing a winning, stand-out resume can feel like a roadblock to overcome in your job search. Often people experience what we call “resume writer’s block” when applying to a job, especially when dealing with online application systems. To simplify the process, look at your resume as a marketing document that is used to sell yourself to a potential employer as the best fit for the job.Is your resume “smack in the forehead” obvious? Will it get you an interview--or even better, hired for the job? This week on Find Your Dream Job Mac talks with Jenny Foss, a longtime recruiter, job search strategist, and voice behind popular career blog JobJenny.com, which has been named among the Top 100 Career Blogs by Forbes magazine. She also is the author of several job search books, including the Ridiculously Awesome Resume Kit and the Ridiculously Awesome LinkedIn Kit. In this 33-minute episode you will learn: Why it’s so hard to write a good resume and what you can do to make it easier How to beat automated applicant tracking systems The difference between your resume and LinkedIn profile What to include in your resume: Hobbies? Interests? Employment gaps? This week’s guest: Jenny Foss (@JobJenny)Founder, JobJenny.comPresident, Ladder Recruiting GroupPortland, Ore. Listener question of the week: Does my resume have to be one-page? Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at cecilia@macslist.org. Resources referenced on this week’s show: 12 Horrible Resume Mistakes Spell Check Won’t Catch Six Words that Make Your Resume Suck Can You Find All the Mistakes on This Job-Seeker Resume? “We Don’t Serve Your Type Here”: How to Pick the Right Resume Font JobJenny.com Ridiculously Awesome Resume Kit Ridiculously Awesome LinkedIn Kit Land Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond): The Complete Mac’s List Guide Special offer: The latest book from JobJenny.com recently launched, and she’s offering a special deal for all “Find Your Dream Job” listeners! Use discount code “Macslist” when you check out for $15 off the cost of JobJenny’s new book The Ridiculously Awesome Career Pivot Kit, as well as all the guides in her online shop! If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at ben@macslist.org. -- Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support! Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.   FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:  Mac Prichard:                      This is Find Your Dream Job, the podcast that helps you get hired, have the career you want, and make a difference in life. I'm Mac Prichard, your host, and publisher of Mac's List. Our show is brought to you by Mac's List, your best online source for rewarding creative and meaningful work. Visit macslist.org to learn more. You'll find hundreds of great jobs, a blog with practical career advice, and our new book, "Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond." Thanks for joining us today. We all learn about job openings in different ways. Maybe a headhunter calls you out of the blue or you may find a perfect gig on a job board, or even the old fashioned way, in the classified ads of your local newspaper. However you discover an opportunity, you can be certain you'll be asked to send your resume. What you do next can make a huge difference in your success. Should you write a custom resume for every job? Do employers want to see one or two pages? What format makes the most sense, chronological or functional? Maybe, just maybe, the Reese Witherspoon character in the movie Legally Blonde was on to something when she printed her resume on pink scented paper. After all, it got her into Harvard Law School, didn't it? This week on Find Your Dream Job, we're talking about resumes. We'll start with the mistakes that can send your application straight to the wastebasket. Ben Forstag has three cool resources you can use to avoid resume disasters that even seasoned professionals make. Cecilia Bianco tackles a resume question we get time and time again here at Mac's List, one page or two. Later, we'll be joined by our guest expert, Jenny Foss, founder of JobJenny.com and the author of The Ridiculously Awesome Resume Kit. First, let's check in with the Mac's List team, Ben Forstag and Cecilia Bianco. Crew, how are you doing this week? Cecilia Bianco:                     We're doing good. Ben Forstag:                          Yeah, having a great week. Mac Prichard:                      Good. We had a lot of fun earlier in the week. For people who are in the Pacific Northwest, you may be [inaudible 00:02:12]. We do events occasionally, about eight times a year and we had one this week on Careers in New Media. Cecilia Bianco:                     Mm-hmm (affirmative), how to start or restart a career in communications. Ben Forstag:                          Yeah, it was a great event. We had a 160 people there, a great panel of experts in the field, a lot of great networking. It was real fun. Mac Prichard:                      For people who can't make the trip to Portland, I think there is a recording, isn't there, Ben? Ben Forstag:                          There will be and we'll put that on our website once it's available. Mac Prichard:                      We're not encouraging you to plan your next vacation around the Mac's List schedule, but- Ben Forstag:                          Why not? Mac Prichard:                      -But if you are headed to the Pacific Northwest or you're just here in Portland or working in state or Oregon, pay attention to our blog. You'll see plenty of notice about events. Again, they happen about eight times a year and we would love to see you there. Let's turn to this week's topic, resumes. Okay, Ben, what resources do you have for our listeners? Ben Forstag:                          Mac and Cecilia, have you ever typed resume tips or resume advice or resume help into Google. Cecilia Bianco:                     Oh, yeah. Ben Forstag:                          Mac? Mac Prichard:                      I have, yeah. Ben Forstag:                          You get like a bazillion results? Mac Prichard:                      Yes. Ben Forstag:                          They all say different things? Cecilia Bianco:                     Yup. Mac Prichard:                      Yeah. Ben Forstag:                          Or sometimes they say the same thing, just in different ways? Mac Prichard:                      Right, a lot of conflicting advice out there. Ben Forstag:                          Yeah, so what I've done this week is I picked that three blogs that I thought were particularly good around resume advice and I'm going to briefly talk about each one of those. The first one comes from the Monster.com blog and it's called Twelve Horrible Resume Mistakes Spell Check Won't Catch. The thing I like about this is it's very concise, tight, and pretty conservative list of things you should watch out for. I'm not going to go into each one of the mistakes they say you can make. I'll leave that for our listeners to discover, but I think this is a good list to start with. The other thing I like about this is even though they frame it as horrible mistakes, a lot of these things are tips you can do to write a better resume. It's not all negative. There's some positive spin on it as well. Mac Prichard:                      You have to have a favorite typo that you saw though in that blog post. Did one stand out? Ben Forstag:                          It wasn't typos as much. My favorite piece of advice, and this is just a personal irk I have is using Times New Roman font, which is the default font on Microsoft Office products, or at least it was back in the day. One of their suggestions is just don't do that. Pick another conservative font but not Times New Roman. It's just too standard. Mac Prichard:                      Well, my favorite typo happened when I worked in the governor's office and we had a news release about public health. Somebody left out the L in public, so there's much hilarity after that. Fortunately, the governor had a great sense of humor. Ben Forstag:                          I don't get it, Mac. Just kidding. (Laughing) Okay, the … Mac Prichard:                      We'll let our listeners puzzle over that one. All right, so Twelve Horrible Resume Mistakes Spell Check Won't Catch. Ben Forstag:                          That's on the Monster.com blog. Mac Prichard:                      All right, and that will be in the show notes. Ben Forstag:                          All of these will be in the show notes because I'll spare you the long URLs. The second one I wanted to point out was Six Words that Make Your Resume Suck. Now, these aren't dirty words or swear words, but they are mundane expressions that litter a lot of mediocre resumes. Let me go back. This is from the Squawkfox blog which is primarily a personal finance blog, but the writer put quite a few blog post together about resume writing. Let me just go through quickly these words, they're actually phrases, that make a resume suck. There's things like, the phrases, "Responsible for," "Experienced in," "Excellent communication skills," "Team player," "Detail-oriented," and "Successful." Now, the author's issue with these is not that the concepts are bad; it's just that you're telling people about what you do instead of showing experiences that display those skills. Her emphasis is don't tell people you are responsible for something, just tell them what you did. Don't say that you're a great team player. Show an experience that shows that you're a good team player. Employers can read between the lines and figure things out. The last blog post I want to share about, this is one that I particularly liked because I'm someone who learns best through practice and I like this post because it gives me a chance to apply the do's and don'ts of resume writing. It's Can You Find All the Mistakes on this Job-Seeker Resume? This is available on the Quint Careers blog. Essentially, they give you a resume and challenge you to go find all the problems with it. Mac Prichard:                      This is like finding Waldo in your resume? Ben Forstag:                          It's a little bit easier than finding Waldo. Some of them are really clear. Like at one point, I think they used Comic Sans as the font. Cecilia Bianco:                     Oh no, not Comic Sans. Ben Forstag:                          I see you're a type snob. You're just like me, Cecilia. Cecilia Bianco:                     Yup. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mac Prichard:                      Yeah. Let's dig in to that a little deeper. I didn't know you were so passionate about Comic Sans. Cecilia Bianco:                     Oh yeah. I wrote a blog post about how you should not use Comic Sans. It's just the worst font ever. It just looks like so unprofessional. It's comical to me. Ben Forstag:                          Yeah. Unless you're like writing a poster for a lost dog or something or the carnival is coming through town, don't use Comic Sans. Mac Prichard:                      All right. Ben Forstag:                          In this sample resume, some of the mistakes are really easy to find. Some of them take a little bit more investigation. I believe the author said there were 15 different mistakes in the resume. I only caught 14. I think it's worthwhile to go through and test what you've learned through reading the other materials that's on the Internet and what you hear today. That's again on the Quint Careers blog. I'll have the links for all three of these blog posts in the show notes. Mac Prichard:                      Great. Let's be sure to link to Cecilia's post- Ben Forstag:                          Of course. Mac Prichard:                      -Of Comic Sans. That one must have slipped on me because I don't remember it. I look forward to reading it. Well, thanks, Ben. If you have a suggestions for Ben, and I think you are hearing from listeners now where this is Episode 9 that we're recording. Ben Forstag:                          Yeah. I want to give a quick shout out to our listener Russell who was the first person to reach out to me with a suggestion for a resource. He suggested a book which I will definitely be reading and share my thoughts on at a later date. Mac Prichard:                      Okay. Ben is standing by his computer. We've heard him on the keyboard before so if you've got an idea for the show, his address is ben@macslist.org. Now let's turn to you, our listeners. Cecilia, let's talk about resumes and what's your resume question of the week? Cecilia Bianco:                     Yeah. The question this week is "Does my resume have to be one page?" We get this question all the time and people are always Googling this. I don't really think that resumes have to be one page. I do think that aiming to keep it to one page is a good tactic to help you focus your resume to each job that you're applying for. Lately, I've been reading a lot of articles about this and they're saying that the one-page resume rule is dead. While that's hard for me to believe because previously people were saying resumes longer than a page are thrown out, not even read. I think that it might be true. Would either of you throw out a resume if it was two pages long? Ben Forstag:                          I don't know if I'd throw one out. I do know that if it was a hard and fast rule, you can't have a two-page resume, I would never have a job. My resume is two pages and I think it's a pretty focused resume at that. I try to put only things in that are germane to the job I'm applying for or have been applying for. The best thing I've heard about this, I think it was actually Job Jenny who said this. That the important thing is the quality, the focus of the material in that resume, and you can't imagine any employer saying, "This is the perfect candidate for resume," but their resume is two pages long. No. That doesn't happen. Cecilia Bianco:                     Yeah. Mac Prichard:                      I'm in the two-page resume camp. Mine personally has been two pages, in part, because I'm much farther along in my career. I agree with Ben that if you've got the background and the skills and the experience to justify it, two pages is okay. Cecilia Bianco:                     Yeah, I agree. I don't see an employer throwing a resume out for this reason, especially if all the experience is valid. I think the one-page rule is more for new graduates and students, because I think they're the groups that will tend to list more things on their resume that they need and just add duties and responsibilities that aren't really helpful to them. I think it depends what your background is, but it's definitely not a hard and fast rule anymore. Ben Forstag:                          I can see that making sense for a new graduate, somebody who doesn't have a whole lot of experience. Cecilia Bianco:                     Yeah, definitely. Mac Prichard:                      Okay, so two pages is okay, but think carefully about your content and make the best case possible. Cecilia Bianco:                     Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mac Prichard:                      Great. Thanks, Cecilia. If you have a question for Cecilia, her email address is cecilia@macslist.org. These segments by Ben and Cecilia are sponsored by the Mac's List Guides, publisher of our new book, Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond. The Mac's List Guide gives you the tools you need to get the job you want. We'll show you how to crack the hidden job market, stand out in a competitive field, and how to manage your career. The book has eight chapters. In each chapter, expert shared job hunting secrets like how to hear about jobs that are never posted and what you can do to interview and negotiate like a pro. You can get the first chapter of the book for free. Just go to macslist.org/macslistguides. Now, it's time to hear from our expert and we have a terrific expert joining us today. Jenny Foss is a long time recruiter, job search strategist, and the voice behind the popular career blog, JobJenny.com. It's been named one of the Top 100 career blogs by Forbes. She's also the author of several job search books including one we're going to talk a lot about today, The Ridiculously Awesome Resume Kit. Jenny, thanks for joining us. Jenny Foss:                             Thank you for having me. Mac Prichard:                      Yeah, it's a pleasure. Now, Jenny, a resume is a short document. Whether it's one or two pages and our listeners heard earlier we're on the two page camp here at Mac's List, but it ranges between 500 to 1,000 words. Why is it so hard to write one? Jenny Foss:                             It's hard to write for a lot of reasons. Number one, a lot of people have a level of discomfort to say the least when it comes to writing about themselves in a way that's going to properly market themselves to whatever audience that they're trying to go after. It feels awkward. We've been trained as we grow up not to brag, not to boast, and frankly, this is exactly what you need to do in a strategic way when you're constructing a resume. Then the secondary challenge is we don't understand how the game works a lot of the time. We don't understand how resumes can exhaust our works and what it will be your resume is going to be reviewed on and how to get it through the system, how to make it enticing to the human reviewers. It's so hard for a lot of people, even people who are exceptional writers because there's just so much to consider when you're constructing one. Mac Prichard:                      Okay, you flagged a lot of good points there. Let's separate them and break them down a bit. Let's talk about … Jenny Foss:                             Let's break it down. Mac Prichard:                      Yeah. We'll put it into short manageable chunks, which I think may be one of the tactics that you recommend in resume writing. I want to go back to a point you made about strategy. I think sometimes people think a resume is just about reciting facts. Jenny, tell our listeners why a "just the facts, ma'am" approach is usually not effective when you write a resume and the advantages of making strategic choices. Jenny Foss:                             Because it's a marketing document. It's a marketing document that you're using to try and entice an audience, a decision maker. It's not an autobiography. It's not a list of every last thing you ever did. It's a marketing document and therefore you have to figure out what does my audience care about or what will they likely care about or be looking for and how can I position myself as a logical match or as a great solution for those things that I know that they're going to care about. Yes, please lose the list mentality when it comes to a resume. Mac Prichard:                      Okay, so think about your audiences, their needs, the problems they have, and how you can solve them. You mentioned earlier automated tracking systems and automation is everywhere in the workplace including the human resource office. When computers review our resumes, what can we do to stop a machine from sending our resume straight to the slash pile? Jenny Foss:                             In a perfect world, you bypass the machine all together and you get right to the decision maker or somebody in the HR team. However, I know that that's unrealistic in a lot of instances. If you are intending to send your resume through an online application process, you have to assume that's going to go through an applicant tracking system, which is the database that sits at the front end of the recruitment process and looks for best matched candidates. Primarily, you want to make sure that your resume is robust in keywords that are common and specific to the type of job you're pursuing and also that you've got standard headers, you've got straightforward formatting because the system won't easily read and parse if you've got a resume that's got wild graphics or an unusual font. Mac Prichard:                      Again, think about your audience and strategy and think about the automation or the algorithms that might be scanning your resume. What about when people get stuck? You talked about how people should approach writing, but are there tips and tricks you have for people who just can't get started or are spending way too much time in their resume? Jenny Foss:                             One of the best things to do if you can't figure out what to highlight is to study three, four job descriptions that are very appealing to you, lay them out side by side and figure out what are the overlapping requirements or preferred qualifications that keep coming up on these job descriptions that are attracting me. That's probably a very good indicator of what these decision makers are going to be looking for and what the scanning software is going to be reading for. Make sure that you position yourself as a solution or as a match to those things. If you're feeling stuck, it might just be time to review some job descriptions before you make yourself crazy trying to figure this all out. Mac Prichard:                      Now, in addition to your books and working with job seekers as a counselor and coach, you've worked as a recruiter. You talked to employers a lot. When you speak to employers, what do they say about resumes that stand out? What do people do to make their resume stand out and what are some of their complaints that they share with you about resumes that they don't take a second look at? Jenny Foss:                             The most basic rule of thumb as to what makes a great resume, and this comes from feedback from my corporate recruiting clients or corporate decision makers and from the work I've done for the last several years as Job Jenny, is the easier you can make it for your target audience to make a quick connection between here's what we need and here's what Mac Prichard can walk through our doors and deliver, the better the odds are that they're going to invite you in for an interview. That's all you're using this resume for is to land an interview. You want to make sure that you make perfect sense and from a reviewer stand point, they want to quickly scan your resume and see how and why you are a good fit for that job. They're not going to deduce that for you. They're not going to say, "Oh, well, he's done this. Maybe he can do this. Oh, he's got this background. Perhaps he'd be able to go do this." You've got to make it what I call smack in the forehead obvious why you're there and why they should contact you. Mac Prichard:                      We've talked about strategy, audience, content. What about layout and design? How much time should people spend not only looking a thing about topography, but rules and colors and paper? Jenny Foss:                             Well, it's an interesting question because the answer depends on if you are intending to apply for jobs through an online application or if you're always going to get that resume to a decision maker directly via email or handing it over. The reason there's a difference is when you're giving it to somebody directly, you've got plenty of latitude in how you can design it, how much layer you can have on it if you're using color and graphics and things like that, because it's not going to go through the resume scanning software. However, most of us, at least some of the time, are applying for things online and so you have to be very mindful to make it straightforward in layout, common PC fonts. You've got to save it in a doc format and you need to understand how the scanning software works because then you can make sure that you're laying this thing out in a way that's actually going to be applicant tracking system friendly. You know what, Mac, I understand. Like everyone might be sitting there thinking, "Well, that sounds like a big pain in the butt." Yeah, it is, but it's a bigger pain in the butt if you aren't getting through the resume scanning software over and over and over again because you've got some layout issues or formatting issues. Mac Prichard:                      A lot of our listeners apply for jobs at smaller organizations, non-profits or public agencies or private employers, how widespread is the use of automated tracking systems in resume review? Jenny Foss:                             Very. I think it's 70 to 80 percent of companies and recruiting agencies are using some form of software to help them manage their recruitment process. In smaller companies, say you see something on Craigslist or Mac's List and that gives you a direct email address to send to a human, then you can use your stylized format resume and save it as a PDF so it will retain the design elements no matter what platform the other person is looking at it from, but then it's less of an issue. If you don't know or if you are applying for something through an online application as opposed to emailing it to someone, you should probably assume that there is some kind of scanning software at play. Mac Prichard:                      We're talking today, Jenny, about resumes, but you can't manage your career or look for your next job effectively without having a LinkedIn profile. Talk to us about the difference between a resume and a LinkedIn profile. Jenny Foss:                             Well, for job seekers, the main difference is with LinkedIn, you're trying to entice a recruiter or a hiring manager to get to your profile and then once they do, to learn enough about you to whet their appetite to contact you whereas with the resume, you're telling it all. I don't want to say at all but it's a more comprehensive view of you.       LinkedIn, I use the analogy often, if your resume is your Wall Street Journal version of you, LinkedIn is more the USA Today style. It's a little bit more bite-sized, a little bit more conversational because the platform is designed to facilitate conversation, and … This is important to remember … no recruiter wants to scroll until the end of time to get to the bottom of your profile. They're going through a lot of LinkedIn profiles every single day. You want to find that balance between giving them enough information so they know what you're about without torturing the reviewer with a really super long LinkedIn profile. Mac Prichard:                      You mentioned that a resume should be more comprehensive. What kind of personal information should people include in a resume in your experience? What should they say about hobbies or interests, travel, that kind of thing? Jenny Foss:                             I think some of that is dependent on the type of industry you're in and the type of role you're gunning for. For instance, if you're a high level executive, chances are you don't need to include a lot about, "I like listening to music with my kids." I mean that's just weird. If you're applying for, say, a role in a lifestyle company which we have plenty of those out in the Oregon market, maybe you include that you're a kayaker or you do dragon boating because that could actually be a great conversation starter. I would say you always want to gauge and certainly never include anything that could be controversial or polarizing. I mean generally speaking, like political and controversial clubs, associations, things like that, probably best to leave them off. Mac Prichard:                      We're coming to the close of our interview shortly. I want to though move into a rapid fire round, Jenny. Jenny Foss:                             Okay, yeah. Mac Prichard:                      Ask you some common resume questions that we get at Mac's List. Jenny Foss:                             Yeah, go ahead. Mac Prichard:                      Cecilia and Ben and I hear this a lot at our events and our one-on-one meetings with people. What's your best advice about how listeners should address the following: gap years. Jenny Foss:                             Your best defense is almost always a good offense. If there's a quick and easy explanation that you can add to one or the other of the jobs, the earlier one or the one that preceded it, say like, "Following a family relocation to the Pacific Northwest, accepted a role as blah, blah, blah" or "Following a full-time enrollment in the XYZ program …" What you're doing is explaining the gap without apologizing for it. Mac Prichard:                      How about time spend raising children or caring for a parent or family member? Jenny Foss:                             Again, best defense is a good offense. "Following an extended illness or caretaking assignment for an ill family member, blah, blah, blah" or if you have 6, 7, 10 years that you haven't done anything in the workplace but maybe you went back to school for a while, sometimes it's better to rearrange the sections of your resume, put the education at the top and the experience lower so that instantly when the reviewer looks at it, they understand that you've actually been a student for the last 3, 4, or 5 years. It eases the gap and it gets that right in front of their eyeballs high up in the resume. Consider the order if you have some time off. Mac Prichard:                      Okay, speaking of order, strategic objective at the top or not at all? Jenny Foss:                             Not at all. I would do … Well, because we all know that your objective is to find a job and most every objective is just fluff and no stuff. Why not use that area at the top of your resume to do more of a career summary that highlights who you are and in what you specialize with your specific target audience in mind. You have a perfect opportunity to showcase you as a solution to those very things that you know your future employer is looking for in a summary section. Mac Prichard:                      For people who are sending their resume electronically, PDF or Word file? Jenny Foss:                             Word. Mac Prichard:                      Why not a PDF? Jenny Foss:                             Some applicant tracking systems, particularly those that are old and/or way less robust, so you're thinking small organizations, they have a difficult time reading and parsing the information in a PDF into the correct data fields. Your best bet is to go with a doc file. Mac Prichard:                      Final question, Jenny. A lot of our listeners are interested in career changes. What's your advice about how to write a resume as people prepare to make a career pivot? Jenny Foss:                             Well, you need to not only make yourself make sense for the new industry that you're going into, in whatever way you can, but if you have some background that actually might make you even more advantageous of a candidate than somebody who perhaps has taken a linear path through that industry that you're trying to break into, spell out how that equation works; like X + Y equals an even more appealing candidate. For instance, say you've been an engineer and you're trying to break into accounting and maybe you have been doing the books at your wife's photography business for the last 3, 5 years. First of all, you make sure you showcase that prominently on your resume. In that summary section, you spell out that you've got the engineering experience plus the bookkeeping experience and then what does it equal. Find some way in which your experience as an engineer or as whatever you've been in the past actually has given you some background that will make you better at what you're doing as an accountant than maybe somebody who's just taken that linear path. Mac Prichard:                      Okay. Well, thank you, Jenny. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. For people who want to learn more about Job Jenny and her books and her services, visit JobJenny.com. Jenny, I know when you and I talked before the show, you have a special offer for our listeners that you want to tell us about it? Jenny Foss:                             Sure. We have just recently launched our latest book which is The Ridiculously Awesome Career Pivot Kit. As you mentioned, we also have a couple of other titles including The Ridiculously Awesome Resume Kit. We have set up a discount code or a promo code which is simply Macslist, all one word, and any of the listeners who would like to have a $15 discount off of any of our books which are in the shop, just use the Macslist discount code at check out and you'll get $15 off through the end of December. Mac Prichard:    Great. We'll be sure to include that in the show notes along with the instructions about how to take advantage of that offer. Thank you, again, Jenny. Jenny Foss:           Thank you. You guys have a good one. John Sepulvado:                 Hi, I'm John. I'm the producer of Find Your Dream Job. I want to encourage you to go iTunes and rate the show. You can leave a comment because when you do this, you help others find out about Find Your Dream Job. People like PDX Media, that's their username, she says, "I'm skeptical of podcasts that take my valuable time repeating information I've already read on the web, but this show is exactly the opposite. Mac and his team have created an essential job seeking tool with valuable tips, advice, and analysis in a perfectly sized show. Bravo!" PDX Media, thank you. You can join her and more than 50 others who've left comments. Go to macslist.org and find the link to our iTunes page. Do it now and share this with your friends because everyone should have a chance to find their dream job. Now, we return back to the show. Here's Mac Prichard. Mac Prichard:    We're here in the studio with Ben and Cecilia. As you two reflect on the interview, what were some of the key takeaways for you? Ben Forstag:        I think the big one for me was keeping your resume in the Word file format. I had always thought that the PDF format was best just to keep the formatting stable when you mail it. That was a new one for me. Cecilia Bianco:   Yeah, same. That was interesting. I also thought probably her most important point was that a resume is a marketing document and it's now somewhere you're going to list everything you've ever done. You need to be strategic with it and not just have an autobiography. Mac Prichard:    Yeah, I so agree with you, Cecilia, because I do think people think it's a kind of laundry list of career responsibilities, not even accomplishments. To your point, the more strategic someone can be and to think of it as a marketing document, I think the more successful they'll be. Cecilia Bianco:   Yeah. Mac Prichard:    Okay. Thanks for listening. We're grateful to the scores of people who have left ratings and reviews for our show on iTunes. This helps other discover Find Your Dream Job and we appreciate it. If you have a chance, please visit iTunes and let us know what you think. Feel free to leave questions and suggestions for the show and we'll be sure to act on those. We'll be back next week with more tools and tips you can use to find your dream job. In the meantime, you can always visit us at macslist.org where you can sign up for a free newsletter with more than a hundred new jobs every week. Thanks for listening. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Sometimes you take a job solely for the paycheck. But, at its best, work is about more than just financial advancement. A rewarding job engages you in a personal way, drawing on your strengths and passions, and challenging you with interesting, meaningful projects. The key to landing a “dream job” is understanding your own interests, abilities, and needs. Only when you know what you truly want from from work will you able able to target the job opportunities most likely to make you happy. Are you clear about what you want from your job? This week on Find Your Dream Job Mac talks with Aubrie De Clerck, a Portland-based career coach, about how to focus get clear about your work goals. Aubrie believes that everyone can have a career that feels authentic and purposeful. When job seekers identify the the work-life elements they most value, it creates a focused roadmap for meaningful work.   In this 29-minute episode you will learn: Practical steps to help you discover (and focus) what you want from a job Why a focused job search is better than “keeping your options open” Tools for exploring your personal and professional strengths Why it’s OK to not have all the answers--and admit it to others This week’s guest: Aubrie De Clerck (@AubrieDeClerck)Principal, Coaching for ClarityPortland, Ore. Listener question of the week: How can I determine if a job is the right fit for me? Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at cecilia@macslist.org. Resources referenced on this week’s show: StrengthsFinder Online Test StrengthsFinder 2.0 (Book) Coaching for Clarity Land Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond): The Complete Mac’s List Guide If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at ben@macslist.org. -- Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support! Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Most colleges and universities provide career advising services to their current and former students. Yet only 10-20% of all college students or alumni ever use of their university career center. Are you making the most of your alma mater? This week on Find Your Dream Job Mac chats with Linda Williams Favero, director of alumni career services at the University of Oregon. Linda discusses how career centers function, the services they provide for students, and the opportunities available to alumni. She shares tips on how to make the most of your university career, even if it's been many years since you graduated. Linda also talks about the importance of maintaining a connection with your alumni networks. As she notes: “Ducks like to help Ducks... and you’ll find that at any university.” In this 29-minute episode you will learn: How career centers can benefit current students and alumni How to build a strong professional relationship with a career counselor The value of networking with alumni associations and local alumni chapters Special career center services often available to older alumni The single-best thing you can do to make the most of your university career center This week’s guest: Linda Williams Favero (@LindaFavero)Program Director, Alumni Career Services, Career Center and Student Life, University of OregonPrincipal, Linda W Favero | Organization + Individual DevelopmentPortland, Ore.   Listener question of the week: Should I list every job I’ve ever had on my resume? Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at cecilia@macslist.org. Resources referenced on this week’s show: LinkedIn YOUniversity Alumni Career Services, Career Center and Student Life, University of Oregon Linda W Favero | Organization + Individual Development Find Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond): The Complete Mac’s List Guide If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at ben@macslist.org. -- Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support!Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In Find Your Dream Job, Episode 005, the Mac's List team shared the the importance of keeping up-to-date on new social media tools. In this special bonus clip, we discuss one of the newer platforms in social media: Snapchat. Once a domain solely for intrepid youth, Snapchat is now increasingly being adopted by companies and professionals. Cecilia Bianco shares one example of how a nonprofit, DoSomething.org, uses Snapchat, to connect with a younger audience and build a support base. Do you have a question you'd like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac's List Community Manager at cecilia@macslist.org.  If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you'd like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac's List Managing Director at ben@macslist.org. Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support! -- FULL TRANSCRIPT: Ben Forstag: Hi, Cecilia. Today, we were talking about different social media platforms and the topic of Snapchat came up, and maybe I am outing myself as an old guy who doesn't get it, but I really don’t understand the value of Snapchat. I understand how it works, that the pictures self delete, but how could a professional or an organization use this to an effective end? Cecilia Bianco: Yeah, definitely. A lot of organizations are actually using it effectively, and one non-profit in particular has done some really cool things with it. It's called DoSomething.org, and it was Valentine's Day, and they were Snapchatting throughout the day and all of their Snapchats culminated in this live event, and they used Snapchat to get people to come to the event. It's just another way to engage with your fans and if you grow a large audience base on Snapchat, if your audience is in that age group where everyone's on Snapchat, it’s a great way to engage with them and you can do really cool things, like have an all-day online event, and then bring it in person. It's just a new creative way to do something for your fans. Mac Prichard: The reason organizations are going to that platform is because that's where their audience is, essentially. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah, I think that's definitely true. Probably from 13 to 23, everyone’s on it. I'm on it, and I don't even know why, but I know I follow a lot of organizations and I can see what they're doing, what campaigns they're working on, and it’s a very personal approach, I think, to social media. Ben Forstag: Hey, Mac? Thirteen to 23, I'm not in that demographic group. Mac Prichard: Neither am I, but I think a lot of our listeners want to work with young people and they want to work with organizations that are involved, or help and serve young people, and I think it may be a different platform, but the principle's the same, whether it's Facebook or Snapchat. If the employers you want to hire you are in that world, it’s to your advantage to be there. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah. Ben Forstag: You go where the market is. Mac Prichard: Exactly, and you don’t have to be 13 to 23 to want to work with young people. There are lots of people my age or younger or older who want to do that kind of work, and being on Snapchat could help them build relationships. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah, it's probably more like 13 to 30, actually, just to correct myself, because I’m thinking of my sisters and my cousins, and they're in their 30s. They'd be offended if they heard me say 23, so 13 to 30. Ben Forstag: Unfortunately, I still don’t fall in that demographic group! But thanks for clearing that up for me.     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Finding a job can take a lot of work. But what if you could get in front of a recruiter--someone who is paid to find great employees? Like a fairy godmother, couldn't a recruiter make your wish for a dream job come true? And by doing so, save you a lot of time and effort? The truth is, recruiters can make a big difference in your job search, but they can't do it all. In this 32-minute episode you will learn: What recruiters do, who they work for, and how they get paid How to find the right recruiter for you and your industry How to start a relationship with a recruiter or recruiting firm What you should (and shouldn’t) expect from a recruiter This week’s guest: Steve Potestio (@Potestio)Partner and CEO, Mathys+PotestioPortland, OR       Listener question of the week: How can I keep up with new media jobs? Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager, at cecilia@macslist.org. Resources referenced on this week’s show: Mashable.com - 20 Tools to Show Off Your Portfolio The Deeply Graphic Design Podcast Social Media Examiner Mashable.com Inc. Magazine Forbes Technology SnapChat Canva Free Online Photo Editor Hootsuite Social Media Management Edgar Social Media Management The Business of Strangers (2001) Mathys+Potestio Find Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond): The Complete Mac’s List Guide If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director, at ben@macslist.org. -- Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support! Opening and closing music for “Find Your Dream Job” provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.   FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:  Mac Prichard: Welcome to Find Your Dream Job. We're the podcast that helps you get hired and have the career you want, and make a difference in life. I'm Mac Prichard, your host. I'm the publisher of Mac's List. On today's show, we're discussing how to work with an executive recruiter. Looking for a job is hard work. You know that. We've all been there. Before you set on to your first application or you go to an interview, you need to confirm your career goals, and you have to update your online profiles. You need to network. You need to do lots and lots of networking. Again, that's a lot of hard work. Not surprisingly, many of us, including me, have wondered, "Isn't there another way--an easier way--that lets you cut to the front of the application line?" What if you could get in front of a recruiter, somebody who is paid to find great employees? Like a fairy godmother, couldn't a recruiter make your wish for a dream job come true, and by doing so save you a lot of time and effort? Recruiters can make a big difference in your job search, but they can't do it all. This week, we're talking to a recruiter, Steve Potestio. He's one of the best in the business. He works with digital firms and writers, graphic designers, and other creative workers all across the country. Steve is going to share with us what recruiters can do and what they can't do, and how you can make the most of that experience. First, let's check in with the Mac's List team. Joining me as always in our downtown studio here in Portland, Oregon are Ben Forstag, our management director, and Cecilia Bianco, our community manager. Hello Ben and Cecilia. Cecilia Bianco: Hi Mac, how are you? Ben Forstag: Hi Mac. Mac Prichard: Good, I'm doing well. Confess, have you had that fantasy that the phone is going to ring one day, and it will be a recruiter offering you your dream job? Ben Forstag: During my last unemployment stint, which was about four months long, I had that fantasy every day, or that hope at least. Mac Prichard: How about you Cecilia? Cecilia Bianco: I actually really haven't, but I've talked to a lot of recruiters through my job at Mac's List, and I think it's a dream a lot of people have. Mac Prichard: There is real value when working with a recruiter. They can make a huge difference, but like anything, you don't want to rely in just one strategy alone. I've never actually been approached by a recruiter about a job, though I have been contacted by different recruiters looking for candidates. Cecilia, you're out there in the community a lot. What's been your experience working with recruiters? Cecilia Bianco: They're always just looking for it seems very specific people to their agency. Anytime I get an email from one of them, they have almost an exact person in mind with certain experience. Mac Prichard: I find that too. I also find that they contact people like us, because they're looking for recommendations about trusted candidates, people who fit that criteria. Even if the phone rings, and they're not offering a job, but if it's a recruiter at the other end of the line, I think there's a real value in building that relationship. We'll talk more to Steve about that later in the show. Before we do that, let's check in with Ben, because when it comes to online career resources, Wikipedia has nothing on Ben Forstag. Every week, he explores the internet looking for blogs, podcasts, and other tools you could use in your job search. Ben, what have you uncovered for us this week? Ben Forstag: Mac, given the theme of today's show, I wanted to share two different resources that I thought might be particularly useful to anyone exploring a career in creative services, so graphic designers, writers, anyone who does creative things for a living. The first one is a blog post I found on the mashable.com website. Cecilia, I know you go to Mashable every day. Cecilia Bianco: Often. Ben Forstag: This is a site that's about all things digital and media. It's a great tool. This blog post comes from 2013. It's 20 Tools to Show Off Your Portfolio. If you're going to be working in the creative industry, that really means you need to present your work on the web so that everyone could see what you do. The online platform you use to show off your work might be just as important as the material you're showcasing. As you can imagine, it doesn't matter how good the work you put on it is if your website looks dated, or if it doesn't work. That's going to not reflect well on you as a professional. This blog, the 20 Tools to Showcase Your Portfolio, it outlines 20 different platforms you could use to showcase your art, your writing, whatever creative output you have. I'll admit, I don't have a portfolio myself. Cecilia, I know that you do. What platform do you use? Cecilia Bianco: I actually have a customized WordPress platform, but I think about every single journalism school student at University of Oregon all used this Cargo Collective. It's definitely one of the easiest tools to make one. Ben Forstag: Mac, when you're looking at candidates for contract work or vendors, is there a given platform that you prefer, or is it just whatever you find? Mac Prichard: One feature I like about LinkedIn is there is portfolio section. I don't think it's on your list. LinkedIn is always a stop for an employer who is checking on the candidate. In addition to the good ideas on your list, I would encourage candidates to think about using the portfolio section of LinkedIn. Ben Forstag: On LinkedIn, you can add projects now. I know I uploaded some magazines that I edited in my previous job there. That's a great tool as well. There are 20 different platforms here that they suggest. Some that are more known, some that might be new on the scene, tools like Carbonmade, Behance, Dribbble, that's with three Bs, Dunked to Viewbook, and Cargo Collective. Again, this is post is on Mashable. It's 20 tools to showcase your portfolio. It's another blog with a really long URL. We'll include this in the show notes, or you can Google it on Mashable. The other resource I want to share with you is a podcast I discovered recently. Mac Prichard: Another podcast, you're listening to other podcasts. Ben Forstag: I'm cheating on the podcast. When you're done with this podcast, when you've downloaded them all, and listened to them all and rated us positively, you can go check out this other podcast. It's called the Deeply Graphic DesignCast. This is a podcast for graphic designers, web designers, and visual designers. It's produced by a graphic design studio in LA called The Deep End. The episodes explore different design-related topics from finding better clients to online portfolios, hot trends in design, and making sure you get paid for your work, things like that. I've always had a fantasy of monetizing my hobby of painting, and so I like hearing these things on how other people are doing stuff in the creative arts. Don't worry Mac, I'm not going anywhere. I'd get to sell a single painting in five years. Like our podcast, they answer listener questions. The nice thing about this podcast is it's been around since 2011, and they regularly produce episodes. They've got 95 episodes. It's about one every week. It's a great resource, a fun little podcast, entertaining. I suggest you check it out. Again, the Deeply Graphic DesignCast, and we'll have the link to that in the show notes. Mac Prichard: Those are great suggestions. I didn't know that you painted. I look forward to seeing some of your paintings one day. Ben Forstag: I'll bring you over to the studio someday. Mac Prichard: Do you have an idea for Ben? Just write him. You can reach him at ben@macslist.org. We may share your idea on the show. Now, we want to hear from you our listeners. Let's turn it over to Cecilia, our community manager. Cecilia, what's the question of the week? Cecilia Bianco: Our question this week is, "How can I keep up with new media jobs?" To get a new media job, the most important skill you can have is knowing how to tell a visual story. New media has largely turned into visual communication. As we all know, in this office, we've done presentations about this. Being able to use the tools and platforms available to tell a visual story is the key thing. You want to be comfortable with video editing tools, even if it's just a simple as iMovie on your Mac computer. I know Ben is a pro at iMovie. Also photo editing tools such as the Adobe suite with InDesign and Photoshop. There's also a lot of online tools that are free and easier to manage than Adobe. Overall, the more skills and tools you master, the better off you're going to be. Mac and Ben, I'm sure you both have some go-to resources to keep up with new media. Do you have any favorites? Ben Forstag: To be honest, my resource for all thing social media are probably my teenage nieces and nephews. They know about these things well before I do certainly. I remember a few years ago when my nieces were trying to show me about Snapchat. At that time, I thought, "Well, this is the silliest thing I've ever seen. Why would you ever need to know this?" From what I've been told, this is now a platform that lots of professionals are using. I know my favorite baseball team has a Snapchat account. I know several serious journalists do Snapchat accounts. It's a serious thing. I guess what I'm saying is I should be listening more to my nieces and nephews, take what they say seriously. Cecilia Bianco: Definitely, Snapchat has become important along with a lot of other platforms. With new media, there is always a new platform that people are jumping on and using. To stay up to date with those, you need to have some go-to resources beyond your nieces and nephews probably. I would suggest a few E newsletters such as the Social Media Examiner. Ben mentioned I'm a big fan of Mashable, Ink Magazine. The Forbes technology section is also great. Mac, do you have any to add? Mac Prichard: I just want to support your point that it's so important to keep improving our skills. One trend I see in social media platforms is tools that used to be standalone applications increasingly are being incorporated into Facebook, Instagram, and the other big popular apps. As we reach out to people online, taking advantage of those tools gets a lot easier, because they're much more intuitive, and simpler, and easier to use than say Photoshop even three to five years ago. Cecilia Bianco: I agree. With some of the platforms like Canva is basically Photoshop, but it's free. It's very easy to use. You can teach yourself in an hour. It can be really intimidating to try and learn those tools, but I think if you set small goals like signing up for new newsletters, or mastering a new skill every month, it becomes a lot more manageable. Mac Prichard: That's excellent advice, breaking tasks down into smaller achievable pieces, whether it's mastering a new skill or taking the next step in your job search. Ben Forstag: I know we've talked about social media tools in previous episodes, but let me just ask you Cecilia. If you had to pick the top three that someone should be comfortable using, what would those top three social media tools be? Cecilia Bianco: I would definitely pick at least one photo editing, one video editing, and then probably one management tool. Canva for photos, iMovie for videos, and maybe HootSuite or the new Edgar social media management tool would be key. Ben Forstag: Thanks. Mac Prichard: Great advice. It's very telling and right on target that two of the three you mentioned were visual tools, because so much online communication and so much media work now is all about visuals except of course this podcast. There is that. These segments by Ben and Cecilia are sponsored by the Mac's List guides. We're the publisher of a new book, here at Mac's List. It's called land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond. You'll find in our guides, the tools you need to get the job you want. We tackle the questions that are on your mind. How do I find about hidden jobs? What can I do to standout when I'm competing against dozens of other people for the same position? What do I need to do next to manage my career? In our book, there are eight chapters. You'll find experts who share insight or knowledge about how they learn about jobs that are never posted, and what you can do to interview and negotiate like a pro. Check it out for yourself. You can download the first chapter of the book for free. Just go to our website. The address is macslist.org/macslistguides. Steve Potestio co-owns Mathys and Potestio. It's a recruitment firm for the creative and digital industries. His company has offices in Portland, Austin, and Los Angeles. Steve knows how recruiters work. He's worked with more than 100 agencies, and he's helped place thousands of professionals into jobs. He's also been a copywriter, a graphic designer, a project manager, an account manager, and he was the director of operations for a large digital agency during the dot-com era. Steve, that's quite a background. Steve Potestio: Thank you. Mac Prichard: Thank you for joining us. Let me start with one example I think people have in their heads when they think about recruiters. I'm going to into the way back machine. There is a wonderful movie starring Stockard Channing. It's called the Business of Strangers. It came out in the early 1990's. It's about corporate intrigue, and it reflects popular ideas about corporate culture in those years. In the plot, Channing is a high-powered executive. She hears rumors that she's about to lose her job. The first thing she does is she picks up the phone, and she calls a recruiter. They both traveled to an airport. They have a meeting in the lounge. He brings his briefcase, and he reaches into it. There he has job openings that pay six-figure salaries. They talk about what position she might take next if she indeed loses her position inside the company. That's one way people think of recruiters. What would you say to that popular image, Steve? Steve Potestio: I'm laughing because if that was the case, that would be cool that we just have a briefcase full of jobs. That's cool. That is I think a common misperception of our industry. We are actually out there beating the bushes every day trying to build relationships with companies so that we do in fact have opportunities. We're not walking around with briefcases full of them. We're not having any clandestine meetings. Actually, a good recruiter would probably do a little bit more than the recruiter in the movie. That is really establishing a relationship with the individual, and talking about their needs and what they're looking for, and what's a good fit for them prior to opening up that briefcase, and just start trotting out a bunch of jobs. Mac Prichard: Let's put aside the Hollywood image. Let's talk about how the business really works. Tell us about the recruitment business and how you look for candidates, and what you're looking for. Steve Potestio: One thing about a recruiter to realize is the recruiter serves two masters. On one side is the individual, the candidate that is looking for a job. On the other side is the hiring company, the business client. A good recruiter is trying to build relationships, and understand both equally so that they are able to put the two together successfully. Generally, the client company, the hiring company is the firm that pays our bills if you will. It is natural that recruiters could lean toward that side, and really focus more on servicing that side. I think the best recruiters really walk right down the middle of the street. Mac Prichard: You talked about the firms that you work for. They're the ones who are paying you. How do you get paid? I know there are different forms of compensation for recruiters. Steve Potestio: There are different types of recruitment. There is different types of, I guess, logistical types of jobs. You're going to see recruiters that work on full-time salary positions only. You're going to see recruiters that will also work on contract type assignments, and then recruiters that will work on both. Some of it is what situation are you looking for as an individual, and then finding the recruiter that works within those situations. If you're looking for a full-time job, the recruiter is paid if a candidate that they have introduced is selected and hired by that client company. That client company will pay that recruiter or recruiting firm a fee for having found that individual. Recruiters work on what's called contingency placements. They do not get paid until they have successfully placed someone into a job. Mac Prichard: I think the other approach is called the retainer. Can you talk about the differences between a firm that works on retainer versus contingency? Is there any advantage to a job seeker to work with one firm over another? Steve Potestio: Being a good recruiter, the candidate probably won't necessarily know the difference if that recruiter is on a retainer or on a contingency. That should be something that they don't really necessarily even have insight into. A retained search generally is limited to executive level, C level types of positions. Most companies will not pay for a retained search if they are looking for staff level or management level unless again it's an executive suite level position. For example, in my business, we haven't had a retained search in probably five years. Mac Prichard: I'm often asked when I meet with people informational interviews, and this is a question Cecilia who talks to our community all the time also receives: how do you approach a recruiter? Getting back to that image of the fellow with the briefcase, even if that's not the reality, there are advantages in having a relationship with the recruiter. Walk us through how someone should find someone in their field, and how they might approach a recruiter. Steve Potestio: One of the most important things is finding someone in your field. The reason that is so important is because the recruiter should understand you, and your background, and your experience better than someone who may be has not been exposed to the type of work that you do. Finding someone that understands the type of work that you do is pretty key. They should then also have a client business hiring company relationships in that same industry. They're going to be potentially more equipped to be able to assist you. Then it's just a matter of reaching out to that person, whether it's LinkedIn or email or a phone call. Again, I reference maybe good recruiters and maybe not so good recruiters, but I think a good recruiter is somebody who is looking out for your best interest, and maybe willing to talk to you even if they don't have something immediate that potentially fits their needs or your needs, an immediate potential job opportunity fit. A recruiter should invest the time to meet with you, get to know you, because they may have that opportunity for you in one week, or one month, or three months. Some recruiters fall into the trap of only working on what's in their immediate workload, and not looking down the road. Mac Prichard: Look for a way to establish a long-term relationship with the recruiter. Let's back up Steve. I'm just thinking of our listeners. They love actionable ideas. They want practical instruction about concrete steps they can take next. Imagine that one of our listeners is sitting in front of a computer. They want to find the recruiter in their field. What do they do next? Do they go to Google? Do they go to LinkedIn? Walk us through how you would actually identify say a recruiter in your field? I know you work with digital creatives, designers, writers, and similar professions. Steve Potestio: On my LinkedIn account, I have an ability to do advance searches. If you don't have that ability, I think you have to pay for that. I would go to Google, and I would Google and find out the companies. Then I would go to LinkedIn, and I would look at the company profiles, and I would look at the recruiter profiles, and again, trying to find individuals or recruitment firms that specialize in your area. Mac Prichard: I'm a writer. I sit down, and I Google executive recruiters, or recruiters, writers, the community where I live in, whether it's Portland, Oregon, Chicago. I know you have offices in Austin and Las Vegas as well. Up pops the name of several firms and recruiters, how do I approach these people? Do I send an email? Do I make a phone call? What's the practical way of doing that? Steve Potestio: I'll back up again too. The first thing that you should be doing is looking at your own toolbox, and making sure you're ready to contact the recruiter. That recruiter, one of the first things they're going to do is they're going to examine your resume. They're going to examine your background. They're going to go on to your LinkedIn profile. If they see things that are a mess, or they're not seeing the type of professional that they feel that they can comfortably represent, they may be less inclined to respond to your inquiry. Again, a good recruiter and a good recruitment firm will respond to every single person that reaches out to them, but many don't. Mac Prichard: What is helpful to you as a recruiter? What kind of requests do you like to receive? After people have paid attention to the basics, and they put their LinkedIn profile in order, do you like to get a phone call, an email? What works best? Steve Potestio: An email works best because that enables the recruiter or the recruitment firm to take a closer look at the individual's background, and to really assess their ability to help that person. A phone call, they're still going to ask for some time to dig a little deeper into the individual's background. I don't want to discourage people from not picking up the phone, but the recruitment firm really needs to evaluate their ability to assist the individual. If they don't feel like the individual has the right background, and they in turn don't have the right client base to assist that individual, they should hopefully be pointing them in a different direction. A lot of it is really evaluating their ability to help that person. Mac Prichard: That's the best way to approach you. What mistakes do you see people make when they attempt to work with recruiters? Steve Potestio: I don't know the mistakes that they make when they initially reach out, but I think people need to have realistic expectations of what a recruiter or a recruitment firm can do for them. We cannot manufacture job opportunities for them. We may have that briefcase full of job openings, but if none of those job openings match that individuals' background and what they're looking for, then it doesn't matter that we have a briefcase full of job openings. They're not the ones for you. People just need to be realistic that yes, we are out there doing everything we can to build relationships with clients so that chances are greater that we may have opportunities for you, but it's never a given. Mac Prichard: A number of possibilities, people can approach you all, begin to build a relationship. There might be a suitable opening, and it might actually lead to a job offer. In other instances, people may go down that path, and not get an offer, or there may not be openings at the moment. For those who don't get a job out of this process, what's the best way to build and maintain a long-term relationship with the recruiter? Steve Potestio: I'm glad you asked that. I've been doing this, gee, longer than I've carried a [inaudible 00:27:29] over close to 20 years. Smart candidates and smart recruiters do look at it as a long-term ongoing proposition. There are many people that I have placed into jobs. They have in turn called me and asked me for new hires for their department or their company. In turn a couple of years down the road, they may be a candidate again. A good recruiter would want to invest that time and would want to keep tabs on your career. I think being a good candidate working with the recruiter, you keep that recruiter up to date in terms of what you're doing on your own. Again, a recruiter or a recruiting firm is one avenue that you should be pursuing. It's definitely something to pursue, but it's only one avenue in your job search. Mac Prichard: I'm glad you made that point, because I think sometimes people tend to put all of their eggs in one basket, whether it's focusing on a recruiter or one opportunity at one organization, which could be attractive, but you'd never know what might work out. It's always good to be pursuing how to find several different opportunities. Steve Potestio: What happens when you don't is it's the old image of the person at home waiting for the phone to ring on Friday night to see if they're going to get that one date that they've been after. That one person doesn't call. Will stay home for the night? Maybe that's a bad analogy, because then that means that person is pursuing many, many, many potential suitors. Maybe that's a bad analogy, but at the same time, the job seeker does need to pursue many different avenues unless they want to just be in a long and prolong job search. Mac Prichard: That's an excellent point to stop at. Steve, how can people learn more about you and find you online? Steve Potestio: Our website is a great way to connect with us. We actually are also very active on social media. We have a very vibrant Facebook page. We do a lot of tweets. Our website actually posts a lot of information that is similar to Mac's List geared toward professional development and helping people. Really, that's the best way to connect with all of the various channels that we are trying to put information and content out to. Mac Prichard: That's terrific. Thank you for your time Steve. Steve Potestio: Thank you Mac. I appreciate it. Mac Prichard: We're back in the studio with Ben and Cecilia. There's a lot of food for thought there from Steve, wasn't there? Ben Forstag: There was. Cecilia Bianco: Definitely a lot of questions I had about recruiters, he covered it all. Mac Prichard: I just want to thank you all for nodding knowingly. I expect you don't know who Stockard Channing is. Ben Forstag: No idea. Cecilia Bianco: I have no idea. Mac Prichard: You had to be there back in the 1990's. She was huge. Ben Forstag: I was there just, I guess, not paying attention to movies. Mac Prichard: I went too far too many movies. Actually, I was looking up this movie. I couldn't find it in the Wikipedia. I had to find it elsewhere. It's obscure, but well worth the watch. It does underscore a popular image we have of recruiters. I think Steve has helped us understand that working with the recruiter can be valuable, but you don't want to rely just on recruiters. Ben Forstag: I thought the most interesting was how recruiters get paid. I didn't really know that much about recruiting. I always had this vague idea that they would take a percentage of my salary. I don't know where I got that notion, but it's good to know that the job seeker is not the person who's paying for that service. It's usually the employer. Cecilia Bianco: I agree. I have that question too. I've always wondered what the actual breakdown was. It was interesting to hear exactly where the money goes and how they make their money, because it seems in my opinion that recruiters usually cater a lot to the job seeker, but really, their paying customer is the employer. Mac Prichard: One thing to keep in mind if you're contacted by a recruiter. Steve talked about this. The recruiters that are hired on contingency, a company may work with two or three recruiters for the same position, so a recruiter can be an advocate for you. If however you don't get hired or one of the candidates doesn't get hired, they don't get paid. It can be a tough business. Again, working with the recruiters can be rewarding, and we encourage our listeners to explore that. Steve had some very practical ideas about next steps you could take if you want to do that. Thank you for listening. We'll be back next week with more tools and tips you can use to find your dream job. In the meantime, as always, visit us at macslist.org. You can sign up there for our free newsletter, where you'll find more than 100 new jobs every week. If you like what you hear on our show, help us out by leaving a review and a rating at iTunes. We're determined to crack the top 10 list in the career section of iTunes. To do that, we need your help. Please take a moment, and we'd appreciate it. This will help others discover our show and share the information. Thanks for listening.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Your brand is how you showcase yourself to others in a way that distinguishes you as a credible, trustworthy, and skilled professional. In other words, it is how you personify and embody the strengths, skills, and accomplishments you list in your resume. Professional branding is particularly important for job seekers, who must quickly build trust with prospective employers and differentiate themselves from hundreds (or even thousands) of other applicants. In this episode, Mac speaks with an expert on personal branding: Andrew Hudson, founder of Andrew Hudson’s Jobs List. Andrew has an extensive background in product marketing, advertising, and public relations, and is passionate about applying branding best practices to the job search process. He argues that a strong professional brand conveys a level of confidence and trust that helps candidates stand out from the crowd. In this 38-minute episode you will learn: Elements of a good professional brand How to connect your brand to the job you are applying for Leveraging your brand in all touch-points of the job search process Using bridging statements to answer difficult interview questions This week’s guest: Andrew Hudson (@AHJobsList)Principal, Andrew Hudson’s Jobs ListDenver, Colo.     Listener question of the week: Do I really need to use social media in my job search? Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at cecilia@macslist.org. Resources referenced on this week’s show: Indeed Job Trends Andrew Hudson’s Jobs List Bridging Statements Find Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond): The Complete Mac’s List Guide If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at ben@macslist.org. -- Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support! Learn more about Mac's List at www.macslist.org.  Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.   Full Transcript: Mac Prichard: This is Find Your Dream Job, the podcast that hopes you get hired in the career you want, and make a difference in life. I'm Mac Prichard your host and publisher of Mac's List. Our show is brought to you by Mac's List, your best online source for rewarding, creative, and meaningful work. Visit macslist.org to learn more. You'll find hundreds of great jobs, a blog with practical career advice and our new book, "Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond." Welcome to Find Your Dream Job. Every week we bring you the career tools and tips you need to get the job you want. Joining me as always are Ben Forstag, Managing Director of Mac's List and Cecilia Bianco, Community Manager of Mac's List. How are you two doing this week? Ben Forstag: I'm doing great. Cecilia Bianco: Doing good Mac, how are you? Mac Prichard: Good. Ben every week, I know you're pouring through the internet and you're looking for blogs, podcast, and other tools people could use in their job search. What have you found for us this week? Ben Forstag: Mac, this week I have a free online tool to help you pick the right keywords when you're defining your personal brand, and for your resume, your cover letter, and your LinkedIn profile. I want to start with a question first though. This is for both of you and Cecilia. What is the functional difference between these three terms? One is “nonprofit,” just one solid word. The other term is “non-profit” with a hyphen between the non and the profit. The third one “not-for-profit.” Do you know what the difference between those words is? Mac Prichard: I feel like I'm back in English class in high school in taking a grammar quiz. I am drawing a blank here. I'm going to defer to Cecilia. Cecilia Bianco: I was going to defer to Mac because I'm not sure either. Ben Forstag: You can both defer to me, because I have the answer. Cecilia Bianco: Great. Mac Prichard: All right. Ben is in-charge, so take it away Ben. Ben Forstag: As the dictionary would tell you there is no difference between those three terms. The difference though, functionally, is that one of those terms is twice as likely to show up in a job posting, which means that if you use that term in your resume or cover letter, your application is twice as likely to pass a keyword based on automated screening system. We've talked in the past about how a lot of employers when you send off your resume, it's not a human looking at it, it's going through a computer system, and you either have the right keywords or you don't. t's important to know what the right keywords are. In this case, would either of you like to guess which one is used and what's often? Mac Prichard: My guess would be nonprofit as one word. I think people just like simplicity and they like shorter words. Ben Forstag: Cecilia? Cecilia Bianco: I would agree. I think that's the right one, but mostly just from seeing people submit applications is why I think that. Ben Forstag: I take great glee in telling you that you're both wrong. The term that's used most often twice as much as the other two combined is “not-for-profit.” Twice as much as the other two terms combined. This is an important lesson here because we don't know what the keywords that are out there and even when keywords are very close, f you're not exactly right, if you don't have the verbatim keyword or phrase, you're not going to pass that screening. The two I want to share with you today is a great way to find out what the right keywords are. The tool is indeed.com's job trends tool. You've all heard of indeed.com, Mac, Cecilia? Cecilia Bianco: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Mac Prichard: Yeah. It's a hugely popular site. Ben Forstag: Yes. They claim and I believe this is true, to be the world's largest compilation of jobs out there with millions of jobs posted. If you go to indeed.com/jobtrends, you can search through all the jobs that are posted or ever have been posted on Indeed and see what terms showed up in those job postings. I went through and checked nonprofit, non-profit, and not for profit to get this information. This is particularly important when we're talking about branding on social media, for your LinkedIn profile for example. Your LinkedIn profile is like the big highway sign for you as an employee that you put out there hoping that people are going to come through and see it and say, "That's the right guy for a job I have." When you're looking for keywords for a specific position you're applying for, you're really going to use the job posting and that company's own copy as the baseline for your keyword search. If you're looking for a general job out there around social media for example, or engineering, or communications, you're not looking for a specific company perhaps, but you want to have enough keywords in your LinkedIn profile that people will come and see you and say, "Yeah, I want Mac for this job." If you use the Indeed job trend tool, you can go through and type in a bunch of different related keywords and see which one is used most often. It's really amazing how even minor variations and keywords generate huge differences and results. I pulled up a couple examples that I thought were interesting here. Do you know about certified meeting professionals the credential? Mac Prichard: That's a new credential for me. Tell me more about that Ben? Ben Forstag: Okay. If you're in the meeting planning game and you want to get letters at the end of your name, you go and become a CMP. I typed in, "Certified Meeting Professional," and their acronym, "CMP" into the system. Any guesses on which one gets pinged most often in job posts, Cecilia? Cecilia Bianco: CMP? Ben Forstag: Mac? Mac Prichard: I would guess CMP too, I think people like to have those abbreviations after the name. Ben Forstag: You guys are 0 for 2. In this case ... Mac Prichard: It's Ben's week. Ben Forstag: In this case “certified meeting professional” as a term, appeared in eight times more job postings than CMP, which means if in your resume you wrote CMP--I've got a CMP, or I'm training to be a CMP--you're not going to pass that keyword test. Here's another example, "Certified fundraising executive," this is another credential. This one's for people who go out and raise money. I put in, "Certified Fund Raising Executive," that's four words, and the acronym CFRE, any guesses on this one? Mac Prichard: I, again would tend to guess CRFE the acronym, but I'm wondering if maybe it's such your question. Ben Forstag: Cecilia? Cecilia Bianco: Yeah. I think you might be tricking us, so I'm going to go with the spelling out of the name. Ben Forstag: Cecilia, you're wrong. Mac, you're right. In this case, the acronym is 20 times more likely to be used in a job post than the long form version. Interestingly, a misspelling of the long form version is eight times more likely to show up than the actual spelled out certification. Mac Prichard: There's a Machiavellian angle you can take here? Ben Forstag: Yes. This is like Google keywords for your own job resume, your own LinkedIn profile. Really interesting stuff, you could probably waste several hours going through and doing this, but I definitely suggest it because this can give you an angle and some insight onto the kind of jobs you want, to the kind of organizations you want to work with. It can position you to beat those automated testing systems. Check it out, it's Indeed's job trend tool at indeed.com/jobtrends. Mac Prichard: That's great advice. As you talk Ben, two tactical ideas occurred to me, one is just the value of knowing the keywords in the field that you want to be in. As you're updating your LinkedIn profile, there's a section where you can list skills and knowing what the most popular skills, recruiters, and others might look for in your area could be very valuable. This sounds like this tool could help. As you do status updates and write on a blog or do any online writing in your field knowing again those keywords that are likely to turn up in organic searches could be very helpful. Ben Forstag: Yeah and in general, I think you can never underestimate how specific language is and the words that companies use and the job seekers use to define themselves, those words exist for a specific reason, and that you don't want to interchange them. You don't want to get creative with them, you literally want to repeat them verbatim. Mac Prichard: Terrific. As Ben mentioned, we're talking this week about branding, especially personal branding. Cecilia has a question for us related to that topic. We always enjoy hearing from you our listeners, so Cecilia is going to answer one of your questions. What do you have for us this week Cecilia? Cecilia Bianco: Thanks, Mac. Our question this week is, "Do I have to use social media in my job search?" Ben Forstag: Cecilia, did my mother send this question in? Cecilia Bianco: No, she didn't. Ben Forstag: Okay. Just checking. Cecilia Bianco: Okay. She's going to get her answer here so my answer is yes and no. Using social media is definitely necessary in a few important ways but some others are a bit optional. As Ben just mentioned a few seconds ago, LinkedIn is like the highway sign for employers. LinkedIn is definitely one of the necessary ways to use social media. Overall, using social media is a great way to control your online reputation and your digital footprint. Employers are going to Google you most likely and you want to have as much control on what they're going to see as possible, and social media is a great way to control this. Mac, I know you've hired a lot of people. I'm curious if you've Google'd candidates before? Mac Prichard: I always Google'd candidates and I go down usually five or six pages in the organic searches. That is exceptional, according to research out there, most people don't go beyond the first page. What I'm looking for and what other employers tell me they're looking for is just the people's history, and examples of their professional work. You're also looking for red flags, because hiring process is time consuming and you want to use your time as wisely as you can and focus on candidates who are going to be most appealing and have the best backgrounds and skills. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah, that make sense. With LinkedIn, it's really grown to become the best tool to control your online reputation and it allows employers to see more than just your resume which just Mac said is what they're looking for. It's a huge opportunity for the employer to get to know you before actually meeting you. LinkedIn allows you to share your interest, the causes you care about, and you can even upload the projects you've worked on in the past. They're getting to know you and the important things they want to know about you before they potentially contact you for an interview. Among all the platforms, I think the most important are LinkedIn, Facebook, and Twitter. With Facebook, you don't have to use it as a social networking platform, but you want to at least have a basic profile up there so you're searchable on Google and it pops up. Employers are going to check that so you want to be prepared and you want to make sure you're settings allow employers and strangers in general really only to see what you want them to see. I know Ben recently told us abut a tool called, "Persona," that looks through your Facebook history and he learned a lot from this. I want to get your official opinion on Facebook do you think it's necessary for job seekers? Ben Forstag: I do think it's necessary, but I think it's pretty much necessary for everyone nowadays. My friends and I have a joke that if we can't find someone on Facebook we assume they're dead or in jail. It just seems like everyone's on Facebook including my mother and my grandfather was on Facebook. It's always suspicious when you can't find someone on Facebook, there's some reason behind it I think. I would encourage everyone to have at least some presence there. You don't need to use it a whole lot, but you should be able to be found there. Cecilia Bianco: I agree. I think most employers agree with that. They want to be able to see that you're a normal person and you're out there on social media. I mentioned Twitter also, it's definitely necessary but not as necessary as LinkedIn and Facebook. It definitely depends on the industry you're in, but it can also be really helpful to your job search because you can use it to show your interest and your knowledge in industry you're in. If employers are Googling you, and finding you on Twitter, they'll learn a lot about you and maybe even be impressed by you so Twitter is a great tool to use to boost that online reputation. As far as the other social media platforms Instagram, Pinterest, YouTube, and the rest, I think all of those are really optional and you should only use what you enjoy using, because those don't really further your professional reputation, they're more of a fun side thing. Would you guys agree with that or do you think they're important? Ben Forstag: I think the caveat here would be if you're a creative professional and you're using these tools to build a portfolio. Whether you're a musician and you're posting stuff on SoundCloud, or you're interested in video creation, you're posting your videos on YouTube, this is definitely where you're most likely to be seen and so where you want to put the work that you want to showcase for others. Mac Prichard: Yeah, I would agree. The good news here is these social media channels allow you to put your best foot forward and to create your own brand, the impression that you want to make by sharing your work, your ideas, your portfolio. I think you're so right Cecilia that people need to be thoughtful and figure out where the people they want to reach and influence are gathering online. We can all be publishers now and that's what social media allows us to do. Now, the other thing to keep in mind is a colleague of mine once said about the internet, "It's fast, easy, and forever." Whatever you put up there is going to be there for a long time maybe forever and just be thoughtful about what you publish as well. Ben Forstag: Mac and Cecilia, can I ask you a question here? Do you think on the whole social media is a net benefit or a net risk for job seekers? Cecilia Bianco: I think it's definitely a net benefit. I think it can help you be searchable in a good way and it's a way that you can control. I think you can use it as a tool to impress potential employers and even recruiters. It's a good way to get found when you're looking for a job. Mac Prichard: I agree with Cecilia. It's an opportunity to find yourself, and your brand, and you offer to others. I know I've shared with, I think both of you before a story about an experience I had when I first came to Portland. I had a good fortune to work at City Hall for a candidate for Mayor and ran a good campaign, but we lost the race. After I left City Hall, when the campaign ended, I saw someone several months later I'd met there, and she introduced me to a friend. She said, "This is Mac. He use to work for Earl Blumenauer," who was my candidate, great guy. I walked away from that conversation thinking, "That's not really how I want to be defined. How I want to be known, is somebody who used to work for somebody else." That was many years ago. Now with social media, we all have the opportunity to publish and share our work and put our best foot forward, and to help define ourselves. We're going to be talking more about that with our expert this week, Andrew Hudson. Terrific, Cecilia those are great ideas and thank you for sharing that information in response to our listener question. If you have a question for Cecilia, she's eager to hear from you. Her e-mail address is cecilia@macslist.org. These segments by Ben and Cecilia are sponsored by the Mac's List guides. Publisher of our new book "Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond." The Mac's List guides give you the tools you need to get the job you want. We'll show you how to crack that hidden job market, how you can stand out in a competitive field, and how you can manage your career. The book has eight chapters and each of them feature experts who share job hunting secrets like how to hear about positions that are never posted, and what you can do to interview and negotiate like a pro. To download the first chapter of the book, you can get it for free. Just visit macslist.org/macslistguides. Most job openings attract dozens, sometimes hundreds of applicants. How can you make sure your application stands out in a big stack of resumes? How do you distinguish yourself from other candidates once you get an interview? Personal branding is one of the most powerful tools you can use to stand out in any crowded field. Here's what management expert, Tom Peters have to say about the difference of brand can make in a business or career. Quoting Peters, he says, "Regardless of age, regardless of position, regardless of the business, we happen to be in, all of us need to understand the importance of branding. We are the CEOs of our own companies, me incorporated. Our most important job is to be the head marketer for the brand called you." Our guest today knows all about personal branding. He's based in Denver, Andrew Hudson, and he's the founder and CEO of Andrew Hudson's Job List. He's based in Denver, and Andrew Hudson is the Founder and CEO of Andrew Hudson's Job List the Rocky Mountain Regions premiere job search website. More than 35,000 subscribers receive Andrew's weekly updates and hundreds of thousands of more people visit his website every month. As a job seeking expert, Andrew has trained thousands of job seekers through seminars focusing on self branding, interviewing, networking, and traditional and online job application strategies. Previously, Andrew led communications and marketing for corporation, public agencies, and elect officials. He's also served on many nonprofit boards. Andrew, thank you for joining us. Andrew Hudson: I'm so happy to be here and I really appreciate you taking the time to talk about this great topic. It's really important topic. Mac Prichard: I know this is something you feel very passionate about. My colleague Cecilia and I had a good fortune to sit down with you for lunch in Denver a few months ago. You had a lot of energy about the topic of branding. Tell us about why do you care so passionately about this brand Andrew? Andrew Hudson: A couple of reasons. I think number one is that all components of job seeking are never really taught that well. All the way back from college and then as you move through your career, you're going to be having to look for other jobs as you progress. It's one of the things that I found out over time is that people are really confused about what is it that makes somebody stand out. There are certainly things that the people who are getting the job offers are doing and they're connecting with the employer in some way. My background in advertising, and marketing, and branding, and PR really lent itself to making that connection between corporate branding and what does it mean in terms of personal branding. Because, really there's a lot of very common things that are going on at the same time. Mac Prichard: Let's talk about personal branding. What kind of difference have you seen a strong personal brand make either in your own career or in the careers of the people that you work with? Andrew Hudson: When somebody has a really good personal brand that's attached to a level of confidence, and that level of confidence is something that people who are looking for a job are really focused on and it identifies their strengths, it identifies their skills, it identifies their accomplishments. Also, this whole thing about taking ownership and taking credit for the things that you've done as a professional. Then being able to really expose that and really talk about it in a confident way. It's not an egotistical way, it's not a desperate way, it's a way in which your true essence and the truth of who you are really comes out. I know even if someone who has hired a lot of people, I will sit there as the interview process progresses and I meet with several people who are looking for a job. There's a special element about that person that gives me what I call the, "Brand Sigh of Relief." It's a connection that they have made. It's identified to certainly their confidence and their ability to connect themselves to the job they're applying for, but it's also about somebody who has done the research, and somebody who has really analyzed and figured out what is it that is going to influence my thought and motivate my behavior in favor of them, and in favor of their brand. Mac Prichard: Let's pause there and break that down because for some listeners that might sound abstract so let's back up to the brand sigh of relief and the elements of a brand. How do you define those and without having the wealth of experience that someone like you who has been a professional marketer and brander might bring to the table? Andrew Hudson: It's funny because we walk around all day long, all of us. We get that brand sigh of relief every single day. I'll give you a good example. Last Christmas my kids they got a bunch of DVDs and they wanted to watch these DVDs, and oh no, our DVD player broke. I went to the store and that's a big box store like a Target or something, and I didn't do much research at all, and I'm looking around, and there's all these DVD players.There's Panasonic, and there's Sanyo, and there's LG, and they're all screaming different prices, and they're screaming different components, and different qualities. In my head it's just swimming, and then also then I look to the left and there's the row of Sony's. Oh my goodness, I made a B-line for the Sony, it took me about three minutes, I grab my Sony DVD player, walked up to the front. I stopped myself and I said, "Dang Andrew, you didn't even check the price. You didn't even compare it to these other ones." It was that element of everything that was screaming at me about why it was that if Sony was the thing that I needed. Now, let's take that same concept and take it to the job interview. You're sitting in front of the table and there's three people who were doing the interviews. Maybe it's an HR person, maybe it's your boss, maybe it's a colleague, and they're all asking questions and everybody is going through that interview. Particularly, when it's a finalist interview, maybe there's three finalists. They've all been scrubbed, the references have been checked and everything. They've all theoretically do the job. Now it's coming down to a connection that one of these finalists has to make with that group of people. I see this happen over and over. Mac Prichard: I think when we talk about that people often, interviewers will bring up chemistry as a way of describing it. Andrew Hudson: Yeah, it's chemistry, but what also happens is that, that person creates this brand sigh of relief. Every single person on that panel after that person who has created that has his big sigh of relief. They've been able to connect that within and more than that, that interview has really turned into a conversation which is a very different thing. When you turn an interview into a conversation and all of a sudden you're creating imagination in somebody's head about, "Wow, that person would be really terrific," and it requires practice in terms of writing out a personal narrative about yourself, practice singing it out loud, practice understanding what it is about yourself that really you can talk about in terms of your best strengths and your best attributes, and the accomplishments that are going to be best demonstrating why you're the best person for that job. Mac Prichard: Okay. Your goal when you're sitting in that hot seat, you're one of three finalist is to make that connection, to create that brand sigh of relief, to find that common ground that's going to make people feel comfortable with you, and say to their colleagues when you leave the room, "That's the person." You took us through some practical steps about how to do that, describing strengths, doing a research about the company. When you see people make that connection, what is it that they have done? Is it the culmination of that homework, that preparation, or is there's something else happening there? Andrew Hudson: I take job seekers through a role play, through a fake interview. I ask them some questions that are very basic, but things that you're getting asked in an interview. One of the first questions you're going to get is, "We'd love to hear more about you. Can you tell us something about yourself?" That is the hardest question in the history of mankind. To ask somebody to tell them about you, where do you start? What do you talk about? What are the things that you need to do, and how do you do that? I'll tell you the other thing Mac is that the complaint I get from a lot of job seekers is they say, "When I'm in a job interview, I feel powerless. I feel like I don't have any power on the subject of an interview." The fact is you have a lot of power. Mac Prichard: I'm always impressed by people who walk into an interview and they have a list of questions. They seek to have what you described earlier as a conversation. They don't walk in as a supplicant but as somebody who is a potential partner and that's a powerful dynamic. Andrew Hudson: It's interesting when I find people struggling answering even some of the basic questions, what are your strengths, things like that. Here's the one question I ask them that always breaks their shell. Can you describe to be one of your most proudest accomplishments in your career? All of a sudden there's a switch that goes off in somebody's head and they start thinking about, "What was it that thing that got me promoted, or the thing that my boss really liked about me, or the thing that brought my team together, or the thing I needed to do you convince our board of directors to do something?" Everybody has those accomplishments that really brings them to life and shows them in their best like. Mac Prichard: You've done the homework, you've practiced the answers to possible questions, but how do you bring in that ... It's not that you take control of the interview but how do you make sure that the points you want to make get made in that conversation and that you do a good job of showcasing your brand and putting your best foot forward. Andrew Hudson: Sure. Another thing and you're going to appreciate this because this is really a page out of public relations that's called, "Bridging." Bridging is a very powerful way if we're taking control of a question in an interview. It's not spinning, it's not dodging a question, but it's taking a question and establishing your credibility. Mac Prichard: It's a great technique and you and I have both worked with elected officials, and trained people on how to do it, and seen some of our bosses do it expertly. For those who haven't worked in politics or public relations, tell us more about bridging and how it works? Andrew Hudson: Sure. Bridging is basically when you get a question and you want to answer it in such a way that really focuses in on what is important and in this case what are your strengths. For example, somebody was to ask you a question about something that you did in your past, one of the ways to take control of that question is to say, "My last boss appreciated my experience in this area." Then you are taking that question and aiming it right towards an anecdotal story. If they're asking you something about an issue that you feel really compelled in terms of describing your experience, you could say, "Let me give you an example of a tough decision I had to make surrounding this issue." All of a sudden, there's a level of credibility that number one is talking about your expertise in that issue, but it's also a level of you're able to make tough decisions. You can talk about, "That's a great question. I had a similar experience at my last job, let me tell you how I managed it." You can go online and type in bridging statements. You can come up with your own, but basically what it is, it's establishing your credibility, it's establishing your expertise. A lot of times, not all of the time, but a lot of times you're being interviewed by people who are not the subject matter expert that you are. This is a way for you to take back the question and really put yourself on display. Mac Prichard: That's a very clear overview of the technique. For those who want to go beyond what they might find online, I strongly encourage for them to watch the Sunday Public Affair shows where you'll see US senators and other elected officials use bridging techniques regularly throughout the course of the show. Andrew Hudson: Yeah. Let me make it clear. This isn't been and this is not dodging. This is really you taking that question and demonstrating your credibility. I just want to make that clear. Mac Prichard: Yeah. I think it's a good clarification. We've talked about the importance of branding and what to do when you're in that final round of interviews. What about other parts of the job search process? Tell us about some of the common materials like resumes, business cards, online profiles, and the difference that branding can make? Andrew Hudson: I was the head of advertising marketing at Frontier Airlines. One of our signature brands was the animals on the back of the tails. We created this really fabulous campaign where the animals, these are the actual TV advertisements where the animals were talking back and forth and they had this wonderful banter back and forth about Frontier Airlines. It became really just as memorable ad campaign, particularly in Denver. After about three months of that ad campaign our awareness was through the roof. It was a perfect example of how advertising can really create awareness. As a marketing professional, a branding professional, I know that advertising campaigns can only go so far. The awareness is one area but the actual being able to deliver on the brand promise is a whole another thing. What I did is I did what I call, "A touch point brand audit." It looks at every touch point that you have with consumers that can influence thought and motivate behavior in a positive way towards your brand. If you think about an airline, it's everything from a website, to the customer service scripts, to the policies, to what flight attendants say. Even if there's an irregular operation, a flight delay or a cancellation, or a weather delay, or whatever, how do you communicate that in such a way that people still give you credibility. It's the same thing in terms of looking for a job. You have all of these touch points in which your brand has an opportunity to come alive. It starts with the resumes, the cover letter, the script that you might have when you're making a cold call to a company, and obviously, the interview itself. As you so eloquently said earlier and the gentleman you quoted, "You are the chief marketing officer through yourself when you are looking for a job." One of the things I tell people all the time is you cannot make your brand come alive simply by shut vending out resumes to job boards. Your brain comes alive when you're able to get in front of people and talk to them, look them in the eye, and convince them about what it is you're capable, and what value you bring to them. Mac Prichard: That's a great spot to close at. Tell us Andrew, how can people find you and learn more about you online? Andrew Hudson: Sure. My website is www.andrewhudsonsjobslist.com. You can e-mail me at anytime at ahudson@ahjobslist.com, and I'm happy to communicate with anybody. Mac Prichard: Thanks so much. I know people will want to reach out to you. I appreciate you being among our guest. Andrew Hudson: All right. Thanks a lot. Mac Prichard: Cecilia, Ben, we're back in the studio and we heard from Andrew talking about how to bridge a question. I know that a lot of job seekers, this is a technique that could be very helpful for them because they're thinking about the points that they want to make. What did you two think about the advice that Andrew offered. Cecilia Bianco: I thought it was really helpful Mac, but I'm not sure that I fully understood the concept of bridging. Maybe you can give me an example if I walk into an interview at a marketing agency and they ask me, "What are your weaknesses?" How would I answer that by bridging? Mac Prichard: What I do as a candidate and what I advice others to consider doing, is to think about the needs of the employer. The best way to understand those needs is to do the homework, the research, and check out the website, talk to former employees, talk to peers, and know that job description called. Look at your own background and the strengths that you offer that are valuable to the employer and highlight that in your answer. The answer that I would give if I were in a hot seat that day and somebody said, why don't you go ahead and just ask the question Cecilia? Cecilia Bianco: What are your weaknesses? Mac Prichard: Like everybody I have my share of weaknesses and I've learned that to be most successful in my career, I need to focus on strengths. The reason I'm excited about this position is because I've got the skills and the qualities that you need that you filed in the job description. Let me give you some examples of how I've used those skills and qualities to produce positive results for previous employers. Cecilia Bianco: Okay. That make sense. It's not exactly deflecting, but it's more redirecting to a different, to what you really want to talk about which is your strengths. Mac Prichard: Exactly. It's also taking into consideration the needs of the employer as well, because you can't ignore their needs if you address them directly, you change the frame of the conversation. You're talking about their problems and what you can do for them. Every employer sitting behind that desk, when they're talking to candidates, they're thinking about the work that is piling up that has to be done. That maybe they have to stay late for work, or their supervisor is asking them for updates on how it's being done. They've got a problem to solve and you can offer solution if you understand their needs and demonstrate how your skills, and qualities, and experiences can help meet them. Ben Forstag: I think this gets at the heart of what branding really is when you get down to it. It's not your own personal logo, it's not your LinkedIn profile per se. It's really the story about yourself as a professional and the unique value you bring to the table that you can operationalize with that employer. Mac Prichard: Yeah. I think you nailed it Ben, and those tactics matter and you need to pay attention to the details like LinkedIn profiles and you have to be thoughtful about them. Again it's that ... Ben Forstag: It's a holistic approach. Mac Prichard: Exactly. Mac Prichard: Thank you both Ben and Cecilia. Thank you our listeners for joining us. We'll be back next week with more tools and tips you can use to find your dream job. In the meantime, visit us at macslist.org and you can sign up for a free newsletter that Cecilia publishes every Tuesday with more than a hundred new jobs every week. If you like what you hear in our show, you can help us by leaving your review, a comment, and a rating at iTunes. This will help others discover our show. Thanks for listening. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Being a professional no longer necessitates going to an office every day. People are increasingly able to work remotely, using telecommunications technologies to stay connected with their companies and colleagues. This trend is happening in nearly every industry sector--even fields like healthcare and education. According to one estimate, the number of jobs that allow for telecommuting, remote working or flex scheduling has grown by 26% in just the last year. Some people have taken remote work to the next level, by becoming digital nomads. These adventurers maintain a professional career while traveling the world, full time. Their office is the closest coffee shop, beach, train car, or even a run-down van.   This week on Find Your Dream Job Mac interviews a professional who has embraced the digital nomad lifestyle: travel-sabbatical expert Tamara Murray. Since 2013, Tamara has maintained a successful communications consulting business, while touring North and South America with her husband and her 15-year-old dog. She will share her story and highlight opportunities for how you too can become a digital nomad.   In this 34-minute episode you will learn: Popular misconceptions about the digital nomad lifestyle How to find location-independent jobs How to frame your skills and experience in a way that facilitates remote work Tips for overcoming barriers to remote work and a digital nomadic lifestyle This week’s guest: Tamara Murray (@TamaraMurray)Social-Change Communications ConsultantAuthor of Awesome Supervisory Skills: Seven Lessons for Young, First-Time ManagersSan Francisco, Calif.   Listener question of the week: How should I address a travel sabbatical or year abroad to a potential employer? Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at cecilia@macslist.org. Resources referenced on this week’s show: 100 Top Companies with Flex Jobs in 2015 LifeListed Blog: The Best Tools for Working Remotes (2015 Edition) Macs’s List Blog: How Travel Sabbaticals Can Benefit Your Job Search HelloImTamara.com: Tamara Murray’s Consulting Website NomadsWithAVan.com: Tamara Murray’s Traveling Blog WestphaliaDigitalNomads.com Awesome Supervisory Skills: Seven Lessons from Young, First-Time Managers TheProfessionalHobo.com NomadicMatt.com Find Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond): The Complete Mac’s List Guide If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at ben@macslist.org. -- Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support! Learn more about Mac's List at www.macslist.org.  Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.   Full Transcript Mac Prichard: This is Find Your Dream Job, the podcast that helps you get hired, have the career you want, and make a difference in life. I'm Mac Prichard, your host and publisher of Mac's List. On today's show we're discussing location independent jobs and how you can become a digital nomad. Our show is brought to you by Mac's List, your best online source for rewarding, creative, and meaningful work. Visit macslist.org to learn more. You'll find hundreds of great jobs, a blog with practical career advice, and our new book, Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond. Let's turn to our topic this week. Walk into any coffee shop today and you'll likely see a customer typing out a report or an email on a laptop computer or perhaps talking on a cellphone about a project or a business deal. These are probably telecommuters, people who have full-time professional jobs typically with large organizations, but they work outside the office for one or more days a week. In fact according to The New York Times, as many as thirty percent of all Americans may telecommute one or more days a week today. What would your life be like if that coffee shop was your workplace and what if your dream was to never go to an office instead do the work you enjoy when you want and from anywhere in the world and not just one day a week but five days a week? Increasing numbers of people are doing exactly this, and they call themselves digital nomads. They live what they call location independent lives. They travel frequently, and they work remotely often as freelancers or contractors. According to Wikipedia digital nomads are people who use telecommunications technologies to perform job duties and conduct their life in a nomadic manner. Even professions you think would be completely location dependent such as healthcare can now be performed remotely. We're going to talk a digital nomad and an expert on the field, Tamara Murray. She for the last two years has worked full-time while traveling the globe, but first let's check in with the Mac's List team. Joining me as always are Ben Forstag, managing director of Mac's List, and Cecilia Bianco, community manager of Mac's List. Ben, Cecilia, how are you two doing this week? Ben Forstag: I'm doing great. Cecilia Bianco: Doing good, Mac. Mac Prichard: Great. Remote working… You both make the trek to downtown Portland where we have an office in a building that went up before World War I. In fact our offices have doors. They're about as far from remote working as you can get though now we are moving to working at home on Fridays. Tell me what do you two think about remote working? Ben Forstag: I'm someone who really likes coming into work and having an office and separating the home life from work life, but I do like having the option to work from home when I've got a contractor coming to the house or I need to watch my son during the day. Having that flexibility is really nice. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah, I agree. I definitely enjoy having a flexible schedule, and if Comcast is coming one day, I can sit and work at home and wait for them without having a problem. It's definitely a bonus. Mac Prichard: Good. As an employer I have to say I see that people who work at home are often more productive and having that flexibility is something I think that makes not only for an attractive workplace but makes it easier for employers to hold onto great people. Let's move on to our regular features. Every week Ben searches the nooks and crannies in the Internet looking for blogs, podcasts, and other tools you can use in your job search. Ben, what have you discovered for us this week? Ben Forstag: Mac, since we'll be talking about remote working and telecommuting this week, I thought I'd find some resources for people who want to explore these options for work. Today I've got two blogs I want to share with our listeners. The first, number one, is the FlexJobs blog. That's F, L, E, X jobs.com/blog. FlexJobs is a job website that specializes in telecommuting, freelance, part-time, and flexible job opportunities. Have you ever heard of the site, Mac? Mac Prichard: It's a new one to me. Ben Forstag: Okay. It's, I think, a very kind of niche site for a certain type of jobs. The one specific post I'd like to steer our audience towards is the 100 Top Companies With Remote Jobs in 2015. FlexJobs keeps track of all this stuff based on the number of job posts from these companies that talk about remote working, and every year they come out with a list of the employers who offer the most flexible remote work opportunities in their organizations. The URL for this blogpost is really long. I'm not going to repeat here. If you go to the flexjobs.com website and type in 100 top companies, it will pop up there. I also include a link to this in the show notes. Mac Prichard: For those who are listening are there any surprises on that list? Ben Forstag: There are. Most of these companies are large national and multinational corporations, the companies you'd expect to see the Intel, the Apples, the Amazons, organizations like that. There are some companies you might not expect. For example there's some government agencies there that are listed as being particularly open to flex working, the Department of Transportation, Department of Agriculture, Department of Interior. There are some nonprofits as well, Teach For America and the American Heart Association. The interesting thing here is according to their research they've seen a twenty-six percent increase in the number of remote jobs over last year. This is becoming an increasingly common thing for employers to offer, and the areas where they see the biggest growth is not in the technology side where you might expect but in the fields of medical and healthcare, sales, administrative services, education, and marketing. This is a growing option for many different industries. Mac Prichard: Coincidentally I had lunch with someone last week who is an Oregonian and just moved back to Portland. He works for the US Department of Health and Human Services, which is a huge organization. He was able to bring his job with him because he's now working remotely from Portland doing national work for the federal government. I was surprised that an organization that large would be open to that idea. In fact it's a pilot project, but I think it's a sign of a trend that is not only popular but is growing. Ben Forstag: Especially an organization as large and as racked with inertia as the federal government. Mac Prichard: Yeah, things do move slowly in the federal government. Ben Forstag: Yeah. The second blog I wanted to talk about today is called the Life Listed blog. It's lifelisted.com, and this one is really cool. It's written by a guy named Danny Dover. He was an entrepreneur who did the start-up get rich thing but then decided that instead of optimizing profits he really wanted to optimize his own personal happiness. He started traveling the world and working remotely to check items off of his bucket list. The Life Listed blog shares strategies and actionable items on how to complete your own purposeful life list, again, what we might call a bucket list. Since working is typically a part of life or at least a necessary activity to fund other adventures, much of the site is dedicated to how to work remotely. I particularly suggest the blogpost they have on the best tools for working remotely. This lists a bunch of different hardware, software, and services that are really useful for digital nomads. The interesting thing about this post is I think even if you work in an office there's some tools there that you might find really valuable to work more efficiently, more happy, and just do a better job with your work whether you work in an office or in the coffee shop. Again, that's the Life Listed blog. It's lifelisted.com/blog, and as always we'll have links to these resources in the show notes. Mac Prichard: Great. Thanks, Ben. I know that when we speak with Tamara, she's going to tell us about what life is like working full time while traveling overseas or through the United States. I'm getting from your conversation that many of tools that you've just described could work for people who simply want to work from their home in the same town as their employer. Ben Forstag: Absolutely. Mac Prichard: Terrific. Thank you. If you have a suggestion for Ben, please write him, and we may share your idea on the show. Ben's email address is ben@macslist.org. Now it's time to turn to Cecilia Bianco, our community manager. She always has her ear to the ground wanting to know what you, our listeners, think. Every week she brings us one of your questions. Cecilia, what do you have for us this week? Cecilia Bianco: Thanks, Mac. Our question this week is how should I address a travel sabbatical or a year abroad to a potential employer? I think the best way to address time abroad is to demonstrate the skills you gained while traveling and how they might add to your professional value. We actually had a guest contributor write a blogpost about travel sabbaticals, and she gave some really clear examples on how to do this. Her and her husband traveled for over a year to several different countries. Her husband was an accountant and managed the bookkeeping throughout their trip. This is obviously not a small task when the currency is changing every couple of weeks, and he was able to show how his sabbatical improved the skills that he needed in his field because he did this. Similarly, she was an urban planner. She still is an urban planner. She did research in advance and made plans to visit planning and development organizations while they were traveling. Then when she came back and talked to potential employers in interviews, she had a lot to say about what she learned about her field while abroad. Overall I think the most important thing to do is think about what you did on your trip that will improve your hire ability to an employer based on the field you're in. Mac, I know you and Chris, your wife, go on trips abroad almost every year. Do you have any suggestions for ways to show the benefit of time abroad? Mac Prichard: A number come to mind. I think many employers are impressed by people who regularly travel overseas because I think it indicates that they're open to new experiences, new ideas. I think even if you're taking a short trip ... it could be a vacation of two or three weeks, there's benefit to you as a job candidate or to your employer by taking advantage of that opportunity to show that you are looking for new experiences. Simply listing on your LinkedIn profile or your resume some of the foreign trips you might have taken a small step can be an important one. For people like the couple you were talking about who are spending several months or a year or more overseas they have an opportunity to document what they've done whether it's a volunteer or paid work that's a valuable experience and being specific about how it relates to the work that you do or want to do will always pay dividends for you as a job applicant. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah, I definitely agree. Ben, do you have any suggestions? Ben Forstag: I've taken a lot of international trips, and I've never had a trip that goes off without a hitch. There's always a reservation that falls through, or you miss the train, or something else awful happens. I think international travel can often be framed as an exercise in flexibility and responsiveness and emergency management. Those are skills that I think any employer would be interested in. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah, definitely. Those are great suggestions. If you're planning a trip or considering taking a year to travel, there's things you can do to make sure that this is supporting your resume. You could start a blog about your trip or network while you're abroad like our blogpost contributor did. Look for opportunities to meet colleagues in your field and maybe even set up some informational interviews if you can. Mac Prichard: Terrific. Thank you, Cecilia. If you have a question for Cecilia, her email address is cecilia@macslist.org, and she would love to hear from you. These segments by Ben and Cecilia are sponsored by the Mac's List Guides publisher of our new book Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond. The Mac's List Guides give you the tools you need to get the job you want. We reveal all of our secrets there showing you how to crack the hidden job market, stand out in a competitive field, and how to manage your career. The book has eight chapters, and in each of them experts share secrets like how to hear about jobs that are never posted and what you can do to interview and negotiate like a pro. To download the first chapter for free visit macslist.org/macslistguides. Now I'm pleased to introduce our guest expert for the week, Tamara Murray. She's going to be sharing her insights on becoming a digital nomad. Before we get started let me tell you about Tamara. She's a social change communications consultant and lifestyle design geek. She spent the last decade helping social change nonprofits get their message out, becoming a vice president at a communications agency before age 30, and it was her dream career until nine-to-five blues, a TED talk, and a conversation with her financial planner sent her on a different course. These days Tamara and her husband, Chris, are digital nomads. They freelance while they travel North America full time in a minivan turned camper that they've named Red Delicious. Tamara began experimenting with remote work while on sabbatical in Latin America where she conducted conference calls via Skype in the jungles of Costa Rica. She's the author of Awesome Supervisory Skills, Seven Lessons for Young First Time Managers, and she blogs regularly about career breaks, the digital nomad life, and inspiring individuals to help give others the courage to take a leap. Thank you for joining us, Tamara. Tamara Murray: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Mac Prichard: Great. Let's hear your story. What inspired you to travel and work remotely? What was your aha moment? Tamara Murray: As you mentioned actually when you were sharing my bio, I watched a TED talk a while back by a gentleman who runs a design studio in New York City. One of the fascinating things that they do is every seven years they close the studio for one year. It's really funny. There's an email autoresponder that says, "Thanks for emailing. We're closed for the rest of the year, but we'll get back to You next year." It's very funny. He talks about just how time off is really important and how especially people who work in creative professions can really benefit from taking a breather, getting exposed to new ideas. I thought gosh, could I make that happen for me. Mac Prichard: A lot of people have that thought, and they ask themselves that question. What did you do next, and how did you do it? Tamara Murray: My path is a little bit unique in that my husband and I we first started just by talking about it with each other, which is something important for anyone who's considering doing this to do is to talk to the people in your life about this and make sure you're all on the same page. We both talked about it. We were both feeling the same way. We did something a little different which is that we actually just fully took the plunge and actually quit our jobs entirely to go on sabbatical and try and figure out how we could rebuild our lives in a way that offered more flexibility while still being able to earn an income. Mac Prichard: When you made that leap, the idea wasn't to travel full time. You thought you would take a year off and then return to full-time work. Tamara Murray: That's right. We did think that that was a possibility although one of the things we really worked to do during our time was to figure out hey, how can we make this sustainable; how can we travel full time in a financially sustainable way over the longer term. Mac Prichard: Is that something you learned along the way, or did you put some time into doing homework, talking to others, reading books? How did you prepare for that, Tamara? Tamara Murray: Definitely did a lot of reading. There are a couple of folks that I would definitely suggest that your listeners look into. The first person, her name is Nora Dunn. She has a great website called the Professional Hobo. She has a lot of great advice. There's another gentleman named Matt. Nomadic Matt is what he goes by. They both have a lot of tips about how to travel in a financially sustainable way. Doing a lot of research, knowing that other people have already done this, and to have ideas that you can learn from that's a really important place to start. Mac Prichard: Some of the misconceptions that you've run across both during your preparation for hitting the road and since you've been doing this full time ... for example, is there a common type of person who's a digital nomad? Tamara Murray: Yes. There are a few misconceptions out there. A lot of people think that digital nomads are these young millennial dudes who are full-time coders. They're coding from their laptops on the beach in Thailand while they backpack and go from hostel to hostel. Those people do exist, but there are lots of different types of travel and there are lots of different types of work. Another common misconception is that you have to be rich to do this, and nothing is further from the truth. In fact I am making probably about half of what I used to earn, but by reorienting the way that I live my life, the way me and my husband live our lives we are having a much richer experience. Those are a couple of things that a lot of people think immediately but are actually pretty far from the truth. Mac Prichard: Yeah. In many ways when I talk to people about this, about digital nomads and traveling full time I think the original nomads were full time RVers. I have an older uncle and aunt who spent fifteen years living in an RV driving around the country and also going to Mexico and occasionally parking the RV and going to Asia and other places overseas. They weren't working, but they were part of an extended community of what are called full-timers among RVers. It's not in many ways an original idea or a new one. It's something that's been going on for decades in America, and obviously some people have been on the road forever. Tamara Murray: That's absolutely right. The way that work is changing especially because of how widely available Wi-Fi is and especially how widely available it is now abroad it is much more feasible now for people to do work from pretty much anywhere they have an Internet connection. I will say that, that is typically limited to knowledge jobs, right? Mac Prichard: Mm-hmm. Tamara Murray: It's tougher to be, say, a coffee barista traveling from place to place just because it requires a brick and mortar establishment for you to be at. Although if you wanted to get really creative, you could imagine someone with an RV who makes a really amazing cappuccino going from place to place, but for the most part it does tend to be folks in the knowledge fields whether they're doing consulting or some kind of tech work, coding, graphic design, freelance writers, photographers, and so on. Mac Prichard: I know you do consulting with people who're considering taking a sabbatical. What is the most common question you get, Tamara? Again, is there a typical kind of person that you hear from or is there a variety? Tamara Murray: I hear from folks from all different walks of life who are interested in doing this, and there are a few topics that come up. One is just how do I find a location independent job. That's a really important first start. There are really two ways to do this. The first is to look for employment, to find a job with an employer where it does not matter where you are. The second route is to go the more entrepreneurial route, which is to either become a freelancer or to start your own business. It's hard to say exactly which route is best. It really depends on things like your industry and your skills. I'll share one example that's close to home. It's about my husband. He has a background in accounting. He used to work in city government as a budget analyst, something that you would not imagine being able to do from anywhere, right? Mac Prichard: Yeah. Tamara Murray: You need to be employed in one place. Mac Prichard: Right. Tamara Murray: One of the things he really asked himself is what do I know how to do. What are my skills that could be transferable to a location independent job? Really when you look at what a budget analyst does, what an accountant does ... The reason why he was drawn to it is because what he really loves doing is analysis and taking a look at data and looking at trends. That's really what his skillset is when you break it down to its bare parts. For him, he was like okay, what types of careers that are location independent ... where is the connection there? That's how he got into search engine optimization, which he now does on a consulting basis. As part of this we've surrounded ourselves with other people who are trying to do this, and he learned about how to set up stores and sell products on Amazon, which is also very reliant on doing research. He was able to take a skill that worked in one career and transfer it to a location independent career. Mac Prichard: Okay. People who are considering this should do an inventory of their skills and think about either what might be directly sellable to employers or transferable to other jobs or projects that might be on demand and can be done remotely. Tamara Murray: That's right. Mac Prichard: Okay. Over the years I've met a number of people who have done what you and your husband, Chris, have done going on the road. What's impressed me has been the variety. There's a fellow that I met with recently who has just returned from a sabbatical in Argentina. He and his wife and their two grade school age children moved to Cordoba for a year. They didn't have jobs, but they lined up volunteer opportunities, and their goal was to as a family have an experience overseas and master Spanish. What would you say to people who might think well, I'm too old for this, or I can't take the kids? In your instance I know that you and your husband traveled with your dog, Holly, for some time as well. Tamara Murray: Yeah. We actually traveled for a year and a half with our dog, Holly, and that surprised a lot of people. The thing that I'll say is it's possible to travel either on a sabbatical or while you're working in a number of different scenarios. The barriers that you might think of whether it's we've got kids; we've got a mortgage; we've got a dog those things are not the barriers that you might think they are. They just require a little bit more planning. For instance, when we were traveling with our dog, we had to plan anytime we were going to cross international borders. We had to look into the paperwork requirements. Folks who are traveling with kids ... there are people already all over the world who take their kids on sailing trips for years at a time, and there are options for educating them while on the road. Things like a mortgage my husband and I have a mortgage, and we rent out our home while we're gone. I know another couple that while they travel ... they actually have a duplex and what they do is they rent one of the units out to a full time tenant and use the other unit that they rent out via AirBnB so that they can earn an income from it while they're gone, but they also have a place to stay when they're back in town. There's a lot of options. Don't think that those challenges are insurmountable. They just require a little more planning. Mac Prichard: Right. Some of those barriers like a house might actually be an opportunity for raising a new source of income. Tamara Murray: Absolutely. Mac Prichard: Great. We're coming to the end of our interview in a few minutes. Anything else you'd like to share with our listeners, Tamara? Tamara Murray: There's a lot of logistics involved in becoming a digital nomad. You have to think about where am I going to work; how am I going to find workspace and reliable Internet access; what is my travel going to look like; what am I going to do with my stuff, but those things are all logistics. They all have solutions, many of which are a lot easier than someone might think. One of the things I find though that is the bigger challenge is the risk taking, that it is scary to do this. I can completely understand. I felt the exact same way. One of the things that someone once told me that I will share with everyone listening today is that you have to be willing to take a chance and get outside of your comfort zone. At the worst if you try this and it's not working; it's too hard; it's not making you happy the way you that you wanted it to, you can always go back and go back to your old life or the industry that you were in where you are going back to an office every day. You already know how to do that, and you can do it again if you need to. Challenge yourself to try something that you don't know how to do because that's where the growth really happens. Mac Prichard: Great. Thank you, Tamara. How can people find you online? Tamara Murray: You can find me online at helloimtamara.com. I interview other digital nomads and have travel advice there. I encourage folks to go there for any advice. Mac Prichard: Thank you. That's Tamara Murray, and thank you for joining us. Tamara Murray: Thanks, Mac. Mac Prichard: We're back with Cecilia and Ben. We had some great insights from Tamara about how to be a digital nomad and what life on the road is like while working full time. What did you two think? Cecilia Bianco: I thought she had some great tips. The thing that stuck with me the most is that she said the biggest problem people faced is the risk taking and the fear. I totally agree with that because it really is all just logistical, and the harder part is saying I'm actually going to do this and it feels like a big risk. I thought that was her biggest point for me. Mac Prichard: I would agree, and I think there are a lot of objections or obstacles to doing this. The big takeaway for me was that if you consider them one at a time, there are solutions. Cecilia Bianco: Mm-hmm. Mac Prichard: It may be that those aren't the right solutions for you as an individual thinking about this, but what she has seen not only in their own experience but in the people that she meets on the road there are others who have not only done this but are leading a thriving personal and professional life on the road. Ben Forstag: Yeah, it's really interesting. I'll be honest it's one of these things that I wish I had the guts to go ahead and do sometimes, but with a wife and a son and a mortgage it does seem like a real big challenge. I really admire the folks who are able to be on the road three sixty-five. Mac Prichard: Yeah. Cecilia Bianco: I thought she had some great tips about what you can do when you have a mortgage. She's obviously dealt with it, but her tips felt really doable. Like thinking through it myself like oh, where would I put my stuff she just had some really practical knowledge on it. Mac Prichard: Where are you going to move to, Cecilia? Cecilia Bianco: Nowhere yet. If I do, I'm definitely going to look at her website and figure it out. Mac Prichard: Okay. I'm expecting either one of you or both of you to come to me soon with a proposal for a remote office. If you had to pick one place where you would like to live and work from, what would it be? Cecilia, do you have a wish list? Cecilia Bianco: I've always wanted to live in Italy sometime in the very distant future, probably Italy. Mac Prichard: That would be a wonderful spot. Ben? Ben Forstag: I don't know, Iceland maybe. Mac Prichard: Reykjavik? Ben Forstag: Even farther north, I like the big open desolate places. Mac Prichard: If I had to pick a spot, it would probably be Madrid. I can't think of a better city, and it's just a magical place to be. Ben Forstag: I've actually lived in Madrid for two years, Mac. Mac Prichard: We're going to have to compare notes. Ben Forstag: Yes. Mac Prichard: Thank you for listening. We'll be back next week with more tools and tips you can use to find your dream job. In the meantime visit us at macslist.org where you can sign up for our free newsletter with more than one hundred new jobs every week. If you like what you hear on our show, you can help us by leaving a review and a comment and a rating at iTunes. This helps others discover our show, and we appreciate you listening. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Fifty years ago, it was common for workers to have the same job (or stay with the same company) from graduation until retirement. Today, the average American will have seven to ten different jobs in their lifetime. This volatility in employment has created more uncertainty--but also more opportunity--for career-minded professionals. The secret to thriving in this job market is successful career management: being focused, knowing your goals, and marketing your skill set.   In this episode of Find Your Dream Job Mac speaks with career advisor and author Dawn Rasmussen. Dawn contends that “job security is dead” and that the key to professional success lies in improving your job marketability. She shares her tips on having a clear vision for your career, keeping your skills up-to-date, and adroitly marketing your transferable skills. In this 30-minute episode you will learn: How to discover your professional purpose and what you do best How to change careers by breaking down your transferable skill sets The habits of successful career managers How to overcome the fear of a career change or job search This week’s guest: Dawn Rasmussen (@DawnRasmussen)Principal, Pathfinder, Writing and Career ServicesAuthor of Forget Job SecurityPortland, Ore.   Listener question of the week: How can I transition from the for-profit sector into the nonprofit sector? Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at cecilia@macslist.org. Resources referenced on this week’s show: Who Moved My Cheese? Forget Job Security: Build Your Marketability Pathfinder Writing and Career Services Myers-Briggs Type Indicator Find Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond): The Complete Mac’s List Guide If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at ben@macslist.org. Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support! Learn more about Mac's List at www.macslist.org.   Full Transcript: Mac Prichard: This is Find Your Dream Job, the podcast that helps you get hired, have the career you want, and make a difference in life. I'm Mac Prichard, your host. Our show is brought to you by Mac's List, your best online source for rewarding creative and meaningful work. Visit macslist.org to learn more. You'll find hundreds of great jobs there, a blog with practical career advice, and our new book, "Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond." Welcome to episode two of Find Your Dream Job. Every week we bring you the career tools and tips you need to get the job you want. Now according to the Federal Bureau of Labor Statistics the typical American changes jobs every 4.1 years. With most of us working well into our 60s that means you may have 10 or more employers in your lifetime, and you'll not only change jobs but careers too perhaps up to seven times some experts say. None of this comes as surprise to our guest today, Dawn Rasmussen. She says job security is dead and what matters now is employability and knowing how to manage your career. Dawn is president of Pathfinder Writing and Career Services, a company that provides resume, cover letter, and job search coaching services. She's the author of, "Forget Job Security: Build Your Marketability," a step-by-step guide to how to manage your career, attract promotions and salary increases, and find new opportunities. Dawn is also a career columnist for OnePlus magazine and talentzoo.com and she's been featured on CBS Morning Watch, CareerBuilder, and in business journal newspapers across the US. Dawn, thanks for joining us today. Dawn Rasmussen: Thanks for having me Mac. Nice to be here. Mac Prichard: It's a pleasure to have you here. I find that when I talk to job seekers when they get their job they think that's it, I'm all set, my job search is over, and now I'm employed and I don't need to think about that anymore. Now tell me why you advise the people you work with to think differently. Dawn Rasmussen: Mac, I always try to encourage people to see their career as something that's happening concurrently to their actual jobs, so while you're in your job your career's happening at the same time, but the career is actually like a river that's running underground and that's carrying you onto the next destination. It's all the things that you can do that can help prepare you for that next opportunity or position. You need to be in the right place when that opportunity does happen. It's not just being a static thing. It's a constant process. You really have to think about where do I want to go and what are the things that’ll get me in that river so I can navigate it, even though you're in your current job but there's some things you can take with you that will get you to the next destination. Mac Prichard: So you're in the canoe, you're going down the river. Dawn Rasmussen: Good metaphor, I love it. Mac Prichard: Now what do you do next? How do you know where you're going? The way I've seen people do this successfully is they're clear about their purpose. What do you see with the people you work with? Dawn Rasmussen: I think for the most part the people I work with are pretty clear on what they want to do, although I will get the occasional client. For example, I've had recently someone who was trying to do too many things. She was applying for a medical ... Well she was a medical billings person and she was trying to get into marketing and patient representation and a whole bunch of other things. She was trying to cover all these different bases, but she wasn't being very clear on what she does best and how she might help the employer. She was just being a job search chameleon, that's a term I like to use, that she was changing the color of her spots for each job opening. If you're not pretty clear on what you do best then that's going to be a problem because nobody else can see that either. The clarity helps you answer specifically what the employers needs are. It's really important to have a vision of what you want to do. That can change as you alluded to earlier having some kind of ... Change in your life is inevitable, that's fine, but the main thing is to really be clear that okay I'm going to target this next thing and then that may roll into something else later on down the line whether you get bored or another opportunity comes along. It's not a be-all end-all, but it's something that's a jumping off point to the next thing. It's a constant process. It really is. Mac Prichard: Let's drill down to that process Dawn because I can imagine some listeners might be saying, “Well, I get that, vision matters, clarity matters, but I don't want to close out my options. I want to be open to a lot of different things, because by doing so I'll make myself a more attractive candidate.” What steps do you see people take who are successful into finding their purpose and getting clarity? Dawn Rasmussen: I use the example no employer is going to hire a generalist. If they have a need for X, whatever that job is, then they're hiring for X and they're going to be putting that perspective, that microscope on X, looking at all the different candidates. If you're not sure … You can have more than one version of your resume. You can have a couple different iterations. Myself personally I have a lot of different curves under my belt that are extremely different from each other. I've been obviously a writer, I've been an educator, I've been in sales, I've been in tourism, I've been a meeting planner. I can't cram all those things in one resume. I have to be clear on who my target audience is. How would someone perceive what I'm saying in this document? Is it meeting their needs specifically? It doesn't mean you have to cram all the non-relevant stuff in there, you can summarize it. But having a real understanding of how are you answering their call, their need, and drilling down to that. Reading job descriptions, if you're not sure, that's okay. A lot of people, they don't know what they want to do. That's maybe where a career coach can help you work through that process because you really have to have that clarity. If you don't know what you want to do then how do you expect an employer to know that either. Having some help or using some online tools such as MBTI, Myers-Briggs, and some of the other tests can help you, or working with a career coach like I mentioned are all things that you can use to help pinpoint or narrow down what your focus is. Then have a separate resume for each one of those areas that addresses that. Mac Prichard: I hear that from a lot of employers. They tell me that when they're interviewing candidates the question that's often going through their mind first and foremost is, “What can this person do for me? I've got problems. I've got work piling up on a desk. How is this person going to make my life easier?” They say that the candidates who address that are the ones who stand out. Dawn Rasmussen: Exactly, you need to figure out what the pain points are of the employer and how you're going to solve them for them, and then write your resume in a way that shows specific examples of how you have addressed those pain points in a relevant way that matches the job requirements. Mac Prichard: Let's get back to purpose and vision. Many people may switch careers several times during the course of their working life. How have you seen people when they're thinking about changing careers do that successfully? Dawn Rasmussen: It's really, Mac it boils down to looking at what are my transferable skill set. For some people it's a pretty easy leap. I'll give you an example. There was one client of mine. She was in Chicago and she was a writer. She wrote books. She did the whole publicity, marketing, and all that kind of stuff, familiar with that aspect. Then she really had a passion for wine to the degree that she was going down to California and spending time with the wine maker. She actually did a bootcamp where you make your own wine. She toured with the wine maker. She worked part time in a very high end wine store in Chicago and her passion was to really get into promoting wine. By looking at breaking down her transferable skillsets it was an opportunity for her to basically say wine marketing specialist. We married her marketing skills plus her wine knowledge into a resume that really covered all those bases. It was a easy step for her. For some people, they don't have that immediate step in front of them. My suggestion is that if you're considering a career change, don't despair, you have to take an inventory of what skillsets that are relevant to where you want to go that you actually possess, and if there are gaps there are opportunities to add in experience. For example, you can take a class that would fill in a knowledge gap area so then you remove that liability from your job search. A second thing might be volunteering for a professional organization or a civic organization, performing the types of tasks that would matter towards where you want to go. Finally, for the people that are in school that may have gone back to school, they're more the nontraditional learners that they're going back and maybe getting a new degree or re-purposing their background, I suggest that you really go through your classroom experience and think about what projects, what kinds of papers, what kinds of experiments or anything else that would be real life applications of the concepts you're learning and cite those as examples in your resume. Your header should be relevant experience which can encompass both paid, volunteer, and educational experience, so that way it’s sort of a loophole. Mac Prichard: What I'm hearing is be clear about your purpose, be prepared to switch jobs throughout the course of your career or even switch careers, and when you're ready to switch careers Dawn think about those transferable skills or you acquire them and document them. Now how do people know it's time to switch? A lot of people I think don't think about these things until someone says, “Oh there's a great job over at this company or this nonprofit organization.” Or they get a new boss and things aren't working out well and then they try to catch up. So instead of thinking about their career over the long term and the investments they need to make, they try to catch up and do all these things when perhaps it's too late or things they might have done. What are some of the habits that you see people who are successful career managers adopt and practice during the 30 or 40 years they'll be in the workplace? Dawn Rasmussen: Oh gosh, there's so many. Networking is probably job number one. We do tend to get quite a bit complacent once we take on a new job. The heavy lifting’s been done. You beat all the connections. You've landed that job. People are usually so consumed with learning the ropes of the new job that they really don't invest as much time or energy into the networking piece that they were spending during the job search phase. My biggest concerns I see a lot of people just tune in and tune out basically on the networking. “I'm too busy. I don't have time to go to this networking function. I don't have time to do that.” Your networking piece is really the critical life line. Most people find jobs through someone they know. I know and I think its Gerry Crispin from CareerCrossroads had a statistic that said if you apply only online you have a 2% chance of getting interviewed. If you apply and you apply working through someone that you know you have about a 50% chance of getting interviewed. That really in stark contrast really shows how directly the networking impacts your job search success. Building that relationship and nurturing it and continuing the conversation from the initial meeting point is going to be critical for laying the groundwork in the future, not only just when you need to talk to them, but they may consider you and may come to you organically unsolicited even. That could be one way. Another thing that I see a lot people doing that are really good career managers is that they always see professional development as a center to their own development so that they can continue to learn and grow their skill sets. Employers are hiring subject matter experts. The more that you can gain job specific knowledge, it can be anything related to your particular job function, your industry, or management, anything in those realms, those are some things you should be adding one or two activities a couple of times a year so you show progressive job knowledge. If your employer doesn't pay for it this is absolutely an investment you need to make in yourself. It's not something you can say, “Well, throw up my hands. The boss won't pay for it. Oh well, I won't do it.” Really? You can't do that. Mac Prichard: Yeah, I think that's- Dawn Rasmussen: You need to be able to invest in yourselves. Mac Prichard: That's an excellent point about investing into yourself. Just to back up and think about that, people who apply only on online job boards, and that's 2% success rate that you cited, to put that in perspective I think 8% of people apply to Ivy League Colleges get in, so you may have a better chance of getting into Harvard than to getting a job on an online job board. Dawn Rasmussen: Lots of pretty ... Oh I love a good statistic. I love that one. The other thing I was going to mention too is that getting involved, I mean, we're all pressed for time. It's really hard to try to carve out the volunteer experience, but by golly, that's another way to get familiar with other people and similar types of jobs, and you end up becoming a known quantity as you give back through either volunteer experience if you're on a committee or on a board. Those are all really important factors as well as far as the people are really successful. They're the ones who are constantly doing those types of things. I realize not everybody is this super type A person, but you don't have to be the leader of the committee. You can be involved in volunteering and be that background person too and that's okay. It's just, make yourself known because no one is going to just reach out directly to you and say, “I'm going to help you throughout the rest of your career.” That doesn't happen. Mac Prichard: Get away, step away from the desk, get out in the community, go to a professional association meeting, do informational interviews, and volunteer when and where you can. Dawn Rasmussen: There's some other simple things too that, if I could just interject, that if you go to a conference, write a recap of some of the biggest things, your biggest takeaways and share it with your office. Your boss sees the value, and them sending you to the office and you help enhance the knowledge of your colleagues, that's a great way to really help show value to the organization too. There's a lot of things you can be doing all at once. It doesn't mean that you'd have to enact thus immediately when you start looking for a job. If you're constantly doing it, it's adding to that momentum, that river I was talking about. Mac Prichard: We're coming to the end of our time together. I want to hit any of the remaining points that you'd like to address. But one thing I'd like to bring up is when I talk to job seekers I think many people get this, they understand they need to think about their career over the long term, they need to think about how to manage it, and they need to get out into the community. One of the biggest barriers that they share with me that they face is fear. They're not sure how to do it. They're worried about rejection. Tell us about examples that you've seen of people who have overcome fear and how they do it? Dawn Rasmussen: I think a lot of it, there could be the fear of rejection and the salary discussion. I think why people have a lot of trepidation about that particular discussion in particular are because you're finally putting a number on what you're worth, what you think your value is. By spending some time and doing some research and really looking at the numbers you should start to feel very comfortable based on what you know your contributions are. That should really help you justify what your salary requirements are. Part of that is making a business case. The business case comes from keeping track of your accomplishments. The more you can quantify results and show benefits to employers that means that you have demonstrable valuable value to the company, and if you can back it up then no one is going to question your numbers, they're going to say, “Okay, I really see how important this person is,” and be willing and able to talk about it. That's thinking about it and owning it really. Mac Prichard: Those are great negotiating strategies. When you think about career management in general Dawn and people who are uncertain about how to begin and get stock, how have you seen people overcome that? Dawn Rasmussen: I think that they realize at some point that they need help and they reach out to maybe career coaches or writers or talk to mentors or talk to their trusted confidants. Everybody goes through a period of fear I think in their career management at least once or twice. I don't know if you have Mac, but I know I have. Mac Prichard: Oh no, I certainly have. I've been stuck myself. Dawn Rasmussen: You have to swallow the fear because ultimately, like I said before, there is no job security, you really have to be your own advocate, so understanding and gravitating into that mindset will help you realize that no one is going to do it but you. Mac Prichard: I too have gotten stuck several times in my career. I've gone through two long periods of unemployment. What helped me overcome that fear and those obstacles was to get out and talk to people through informational interviews and follow many of the strategies that you've laid out, volunteering and networking. Dawn Rasmussen: Exactly. Mac Prichard: Tell our listeners how they can find you online and learn more about your book and your company. Dawn Rasmussen: My web address is www.pathfindercareers.com. I've got all kinds of social media links. I'm on Twitter and Facebook and LinkedIn, so you're more than welcome to connect me there. It's pretty easy find. Mac Prichard: Thank you Dawn. Joining us today has been Dawn Rasmussen, president of Pathfinder Writing and Career Services. Thank you for being on Find Your Dream Job, Dawn. Dawn Rasmussen: Thanks for having me. Mac Prichard: Joining me in the studio today are Ben Forstag, managing director of Mac's List, and Cecilia Bianco, our community manager at Mac's List. How are you two doing today? Cecilia Bianco: Good Mac. Ben Forstag: I'm great. Mac Prichard: Good. It's a pleasure to have you here. Every week Ben scours the internet looking for blogs, podcasts, and other tools you can use in your job search, and Cecilia is listening to you our listeners and she joins us to answer your questions. Ben, let's start with you. What do you have for us this week? Ben Forstag: Mac this week Dan Rasmussen talked about all career management. That is essentially preparing yourself for the uncontrollable changes in your work life. This is a great thing to master because as we all know the only constant into this world is change. What do you guys feel about change? Mac Prichard: I have two minds about it. I certainly enjoyed the opportunities that changing jobs has brought, especially the chance to learn new skills. But I have to also share with our listeners it's scary going into a new office, and learning the ways of a new boss, and mastering new responsibilities. Cecilia Bianco: I agree with Mac. I think change can be both refreshing and difficult, but I think that it's good to adapt to change and to keep learning how to better deal with it throughout your career so it's a good learned skill to have. Ben Forstag: Yeah, I think most people struggle with change at some point in their life, and I do think it is a skill that you can learn. My suggested resource this week is a book that provides some perspective on how to successfully navigate change, whether that change happens in your work or your private life. The book is called "Who moved my cheese" by Dr. Spencer Johnson. This is a best seller back in the late 90s. Have either of you heard of it? Cecilia Bianco: I haven't actually. I missed this one. Mac Prichard: I do remember this book Ben. In 1999 I was the Y2K communications manager for the Oregon Department of Human Services. My boss at the time, a terrific fellow, Dan Postrel, had a copy on his desk. He was a big fan of it. Ben Forstag: This book was everywhere in the late 90s. I remember when I was training to become a YMCA camp counselor they actually gave us a copy to help us with that job. This is a fast and easy read. But I think it contains a lot of good takeaways. The book is a parable about mice and very tiny people trapped inside a maze looking for cheese. When the usual source of their cheese disappears the characters responded different ways. The mice, who are evidently moreresourceful than the humans, were already prepared for change and quickly move on to find other sources of cheese. The humans in the meantime are paralyzed by the question of who moved our cheese. Resistance to change and fear of the unknown prevent them from adapting to new realities and ultimately keep them from what they want. Cheese of course is just a metaphor for anything that you're searching for or anything that you want. It could be happiness or career contentment or new a job. When the book was really popular and the business world was using it as a training tool cheese was often representative of higher profits and increased sufficiency. The author doesn't ever say that. He never really says what cheese is at all. It's up for the reader to decide and really there's no answer or wrong answer. It's whatever you think or want. The book can't tell you what's important to you obviously, but it can provide some perspective on how to navigate a constantly changing world to help you find your own personal cheese. I recently reread the book after almost 20 years and I got a lot of value from it. Folks who are going through the uncertainty of a job change or a career change will definitely find some good lessons as well. Check out "Who moved my cheese," by Spencer Johnson. You can find it on Amazon or any major bookstore. We'll provide a link to it in the show notes for this podcast. Cecilia, since you haven't read it, this is your homework for the next week. Cecilia Bianco: Okay Ben, I will get on that. Mac Prichard: Thanks Ben. Again, if you have a recourse that you'd like to share with our listeners please write Ben. His email address is ben@macslist.org. He is standing by his computer right now, waiting to hear from you. While he's doing that, hitting the refresh button constantly on his email. Let's move to Cecilia. Cecilia, what are you hearing from our listeners this week? Cecilia Bianco: Thanks Mac. This week our question is: How I can transition from the for-profit to the nonprofit sector? As you know we get this question at every event. It's a common question from our readers. We actually had it at our most recent spring panel. It was our first event at University of Portland. I'm sure Mac remembers this. Mac Prichard: It's a wonderful venue up there and a beautiful campus. Cecilia Bianco: Ben, I remember you were in the crowd as a guest and you actually asked our panelists a question. You got on the mike. I remember that. Ben Forstag: I'm sorry that you do remember that. But yes, this was before I worked at Mac's List, back when I was back in nonprofit management. Cecilia Bianco: I bring this up because one of our panelists actually asked this specific question, how to transition from the for-profit to the nonprofit. She had a really interesting answer that stuck with me. She was the HR consultant for Oregon Health and Sciences University Foundation and she said that she has found for-profit backgrounds to actually be more valuable in some cases to a nonprofit. She said that they bring some skills that nonprofit professionals sometimes don't have from their work in the industry. That really stuck with me because we don't hear it a lot and we hear people in the for-profit industry nervous and thinking they can't transition because they don't have what nonprofits are looking for. One of the most important things that I got from that it's a transition you can make but you have to focus on framing your application to meet what the nonprofit is looking for. As Dawn mentioned earlier one of the most important things to do is to focus on your transferable skills and how can you apply your for-profit experience to show how it will contribute to a nonprofit success and the needs that they have. I think that's one of the most important ways to start your transition. What about you Mac because I know you get this all the time too? Mac Prichard: I agree. Highlighting your transferable skills is a very smart thing to do. The other lesson I draw from that story that you're sharing with us Cecilia is the importance of going to the source. If you have an objection in your mind about finding a job in a sector, or organization, or company, get out there and talk to people in that sector or in that organization and in that company and ask about the concern. This [inaudible 00:26:02] you, we’re hearing from the source, a human resources director at a foundation who says she's eager to hear from people in the private sector and that the trick is to highlight your transferable skills. Ben Forstag: Yeah, I'd agree with that Mac. I think the good news here is that there's a lot of new pressures on the nonprofits sector to compete for limited resources, and a lot of nonprofits are bringing in new practices that they've gotten from the for- profit world so folks who have experience in sales or business analytics or statistics there's a lot of new opportunities for folks like that in the nonprofit world. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah, I definitely agree Ben. I think I would add that another important thing for people to do is to get on the community and network and volunteer and get to hear the things that they're not getting in their for-profit background so that they can know what's going on in the nonprofit world and get connected to the important people and learn the important keywords. I actually just spoke with a reader recently. He took the advice that we're always telling people. He was coming from the public sector to the nonprofit industry and what he did was he made it a big part of his life to get out in the community and network. This helped him learn the skills that he needed to work on that he was lacking. Because everyone in the nonprofit community when you get out there, they want to help you and they'll give you the information you need, so you just need to put yourself out there which is exactly what he did, and be on networking. He also volunteered at Habitat for Humanity. This gave him some really great connections and he ended up learning the skills he needed to work in a nonprofit and he actually recently landed a job. You'll see him featured on our blog shortly. I'm sure Mac will look forward to that. He loves hearing our reader stories. Mac Prichard: I do enjoy those stories. If you have one in addition to a question but you want to share your own story about finding a job again Cecilia's address is cecilia@macslist.org. These segments by Ben and Cecilia are sponsored by the Mac's List Guides, publisher of our new book "Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond." Now the Mac's List Guides give you the tools you need to get the job you want. We show you how to crack the hidden job market, stand out in a competitive field, and how to manage your career. In each of the books’ eight chapters experts share job hunting secrets like how to hear about positions that are never posted and what you can do to interview and negotiate like a pro. You can download the first chapter of the book for free. Just visit macslist.org/macslistguides. Thank you for listening. We'll be back next week with more tools and tips you can use to find your dream job. In the meantime visit us at macslist.org where you can sign up for our free newsletter with more than 100 new jobs every week. If you like what you hear on our show you can help us by leaving a review, a comment, and a rating at iTunes. Thanks for listening. 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Check out the podcast on Macslist here: (https://www.macslist.org/podcasts/networking/find-job-networking-nathan-perez)Employers hire candidates that they know and those who are recommended to them by people that they trust. That's why networking is so important: it gets you face-time with fellow professionals and kickstarts relationships that get you known in the community.When you're looking for a job, one of the best things you can do is conduct informational interviews with professionals in your desired field. But how do you find the right people with whom to meet? And what are the takeaways you can expect from these meetingsIn this episode of Find Your Dream Job Mac talks with Nathan Perez, an executive recruiter and writer who has mastered the art of networking. According to Huffington Post, Nathan is one of the most connected people on LinkedIn, with 30,000 professional contacts. He is also the author of The 20-Minute Networking Meeting, a primer on how to conduct successful informational interviews.  In this 36-minute episode you will learn: How to structure a short but effective networking meeting How to make a good impression in an informational interview How to build and leverage your network The one thing you should never do in a networking meeting This week's guest:Nathan Perez (@NathanAPerez) Principal, 20 Minute Communications Author of The 20 Minute Networking Meeting Minneapolis, Minn. Listener question of the week:What do I do when a professional connection "ghosts" (disappears) on me?Do you have a question you'd like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac's List Community Manager at cecilia@macslist.org.Resources referenced on this week's show: The 20-Minute Networking Meeting (Executive Edition) The 20-Minute Networking Meeting (Graduate Edition) Young Nonprofit Professionals Network Network After Work Ignite Conferences Eventbrite Meetup.com Find Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond): The Complete Mac’s List Guide If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you'd like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac's List Managing Director, at ben@macslist.org.Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support!Learn more about Mac's List at www.macslist.org.Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices