Veterans of Culture Wars

Larry Norman biographer Gregory Alan Thornbury (Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music) joins the podcast to talk about the godfather of Christian rock music and the larger Jesus Movement that he inspired and later disavowed. He also talks about Critical Kayfabe Theory, a way of interpreting the actions of public figures like Mark Driscoll through the lens of professional wrestlers, who have a strict code of staying in character, and what happens when things go off script.  Get a copy of "Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music: Larry Norman and the Perils of Christian Rock" right here:  https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/537583/why-should-the-devil-have-all-the-good-music-by-gregory-alan-thornbury/ Follow Greg Thornbury on Twitter:  @greg_thornbury Read the viral article on Kayfabe theory on David Dark's Substack:  https://daviddark.substack.com/p/on-metaphor-and-kayfabe -Check out Zach's music by going to:  https://muzach.bandcamp.com -Read Dave's occasional blogging at:  www.dangeroushope.wordpress.com Twitter: @vcwpod Zach- @muzach Dave- @Davejlester Podcast music by Zach Malm Logo by Zach Malm

Our first official return guest, Stephanie Drury from Stuff Christian Culture Likes, comes back on the pod. We talk about a variety of things related to the Christianity Today podcast "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill". In what ways did Mark Driscoll shape Mars Hill into a rape culture and teach about sex in specific ways that re-traumatized victims of sexual violence? Why did so many women at Mars Hill reach out to Stephanie, and what were their stories like? Is the Christianity Today podcast doing a better job of centering victims or protecting institutions? Find Stephanie: Twitter:  @Stuffcclikes Facebook:  Stuff Christian Culture Likes Website:  www.stuffchristianculturelikes.com Podcasts:  "Dongtini", "Hard Feelings Bro" Some Podcasts where she was a guest:  https://www.owltail.com/people/yNFHA-stephanie-drury/appearances -Check out Zach's music by going to:  https://muzach.bandcamp.com -Read Dave's occasional blogging at:  www.dangeroushope.wordpress.com Twitter: @vcwpod Zach- @muzach Dave- @Davejlester Podcast music by Zach Malm Logo by Zach Malm

Matt Nightingale joins us to discuss the new Netflix documentary Pray Away, his own experience with gay conversion therapy, and his subsequent journey to acceptance, involving coming out as a married dad in his 40s. We also talk about 2 major figures in evangelicalism and what they meant to him: author Rachel Held Evans, and Jesus Movement hippie preacher Lonnie Frisbee, a gay man who claimed to meet Jesus during an LSD trip in the desert and was instrumental in the founding of the Calvary Chapel and Vineyard denominations. Connect with Matt Nightingale: Website:  https://mattnightingale.com/ Twitter:  @mattnightingale Matt's church, The Quest:  https://wearethequest.org/ Matt's non-profit, Common Sanctuary:  https://mattnightingale.com/common-sanctuary/ Mentioned on the Pod: Book- "Searching for Sunday:  Loving, Leaving and Finding the Church" by Rachel Held Evans.  Order here:  https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/searching-for-sunday-loving-leaving-and-finding-the-church/9198144/#edition=8484461&idiq=8270902 Book:  "Inspired:  Slaying Giants, Walking on Water, and Loving the Bible Again" by Rachel Held Evans.  Order here:  https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/inspired-slaying-giants-walking-on-water-and-loving-the-bible-again_rachel-held-evans/18601414/#edition=19797699&idiq=27978585 Documentary:  "Frisbee: The Life and Death of a Hippie Preacher". Watch the trailer here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv3O8SseOio Documentary:  Netflix's "Pray Away".  Watch the trailer here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs -Check out Zach's music by going to:  https://muzach.bandcamp.com -Read Dave's occasional blogging at:  www.dangeroushope.wordpress.com Twitter: @vcwpod Zach- @muzach Dave- @Davejlester Podcast music by Zach Malm Logo by Zach Malm

Stories of control and paranoia from The Trinity Church, where at least one leader believes Mark Driscoll is the closest thing to Jesus on earth. Chad and Ben talk about how they ended up there, why they left, and why they feel Mark Driscoll should not be leading a church. Follow Chad Freese on Twitter:  @deardriscoll Mentioned on the podcast: -Former security director Chad Freese's website:  https://www.deardriscoll.com/ -Tiffany Eneas (Ben's wife) wrote about her experiences on Warren Throckmorton's blog:  https://www.wthrockmorton.com/2021/06/02/postcards-from-phoenix-when-church-demands-obedience/ -Julie Roys interview where Chad and Ben shared their experiences and other accounts at The Trinity Church:  https://julieroys.com/podcast/inside-the-driscoll-cult/ -Warren Throckmorton interviews former executive elders at Mars Hill Church, Sutton Turner and Dave Bruskas:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkPwP4ng5l4 -A 15 year old teenager and one of Driscoll's daughters share a kiss and the aftermath:  https://churchleaders.com/news/396679-new-church-similar-stories-is-mark-driscoll-an-abusive-leader.html -Check out Zach's music by going to:  https://muzach.bandcamp.com -Read Dave's occasional blogging at:  www.dangeroushope.wordpress.com Twitter: @vcwpod Zach- @muzach Dave- @Davejlester Podcast music by Zach Malm Logo by Zach Malm

Zach and Dave discuss the first three episodes of Christianity Today's new podcast "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill" by Mike Cosper, and Zach gives his thoughts on the fourth episode (which was released after our initial recording). Mentioned in this episode: The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill: https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/podcasts/rise-and-fall-of-mars-hill/ Raft of Dead Monkeys: https://raftofdeadmonkeys.bandcamp.com/ Ninety Pound Wuss: https://open.spotify.com/artist/0VOvF0kfqCTRe37XzWQdvH Suffering and the Hideous Thieves: https://open.spotify.com/artist/7oAXG4Q2lwnj2xhUDE67bt -Check out Zach's music by going to:  https://muzach.bandcamp.com -Read Dave's occasional blogging at:  www.dangeroushope.wordpress.com. Twitter: @vcwpod Zach- @muzach Dave- @Davejlester Podcast music by Zach Malm Logo by Zach Malm

Evangelical subculture has a habit of copying different art forms from the wider culture.  In the era of superhero movies developed from long running Marvel and DC comic books, what were Christian comic books like?  Cultural critic and co-host of the podcast Young Adult Movie Ministry, Sam Thielman joins the pod to discuss Christian comic books and committed Christian personalities who have worked in the comic industry.  He also shares his story with Evangelical Christianity including his family's connection to Billy Graham and Franklin Graham.   Connect with Sam Thielman: @samthielman on Twitter Subscribe to Young Adult Movie Ministry Podcast:  https://yammpod.substack.com/ Mentioned on the Pod: -Sam writes on the Satanic Panic via a film review of "The Conjuring:  The Devil Made Me Do It":  https://popula.com/2021/06/28/demons-panic-and-memory/ -Sam's obituary for Christian comic writer Jack Chick in The Guardian:  https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/oct/25/jack-chick-christian-comic-cartoonist-death -Unpublished DC Comic where Swamp Thing meets Jesus Christ.  Information on that issue here:  https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Swamp_Thing_Vol_2_88_(Unpublished) -Check out Zach's music by going to:  https://muzach.bandcamp.com -Read Dave's occasional blogging at:  www.dangeroushope.wordpress.com. Twitter: @vcwpod Zach- @muzach Dave- @Davejlester Podcast music by Zach Malm Logo by Zach Malm

Author, mom, and math teacher Wendy Alsup joins the podcast to talk about masculinity (farmers vs warriors), her excellent book "Companions in Suffering", and her thoughts on forgiveness (which will be in a forthcoming book released in January 2022). Connect with Wendy Alsup: Website featuring her ministry and work:  https://theologyforwomen.org/ Email:  theologyforwomen@gmail.com Twitter:  @wendyalsup Mentioned on the pod: -Wendy's article on masculinity (farmers vs warriors):  https://modernreformation.org/resource-library/web-exclusive-articles/the-model-for-christian-manhood/ -Wendy's book "Companions in Suffering:  Comfort for Times of Loss and Loneliness".  Buy the book here:  https://www.ivpress.com/companions-in-suffering -Wendy's book "Is the Bible Good for Women?".  Buy the book here:  https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/536308/is-the-bible-good-for-women-by-wendy-alsup/ -Check out Zach's music by going to:  https://muzach.bandcamp.com -Read Dave's occasional blogging at:  www.dangeroushope.wordpress.com. Twitter: @vcwpod Zach- @muzach Dave- @Davejlester Podcast music by Zach Malm Logo by Zach Malm

Do evangelicals want to know the truth about abusive pastors? American history? Conversion therapy? In this wide ranging interview, Professor Warren Throckmorton talks about his Baptist background and journey with Evangelical Christianity. He discusses being a psychology professor and studying gender and sexuality, learning and changing his mind on LGBTQ issues and opposing an anti-gay law in Uganda. We also discuss his reporting on Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church continuing on with Driscoll's current organization, The Trinity Church in Scottsdale, Arizona. Read Professor Throckmorton's reporting (including about Mark Driscoll and Trinity Church) here: https://www.wthrockmorton.com/ Other reporting about Mark Driscoll and Trinity Church: -https://julieroys.com/mark-driscoll-cult-like-actions-24-7-surveillance-loyalty/ -https://julieroys.com/driscoll-honeymoon-church-funds-interns-gift-cards/ -Check out Zach's music by going to:  https://muzach.bandcamp.com -Read Dave's occasional blogging at:  www.dangeroushope.wordpress.com. Twitter: @vcwpod Zach- @muzach Dave- @Davejlester Podcast music by Zach Malm Logo by Zach Malm

Zach and Dave are back from a break! Zach presses Dave on whether he is still an Evangelical.  Zach discusses what he has been learning about religious trauma.  Both hosts talk about their favorites movies of 2020 and argue about whether "Shrek" is a good movie (this is still not a debate show, but there are some assertions that require a response, evidence that demands a verdict).  The latest with the Southern Baptist Denomination is discussed as well. Topics mentioned on the Pod: -Dr. Russell Moore's leaked letter addressed to SBC executives:  https://religionnews.com/2021/06/02/leaked-russell-moore-letter-blasts-sbc-conservatives-sheds-light-on-his-resignation/ -Further commentary on Dr. Moore's letter:  https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/russell-moores-cri-de-coeur-should -SBC scandals:  https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/russell-moore-sbc/619122/ -SBC struggles to condemn white supremacy.  https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-southern-baptist-convention-alt-right-white-supremacy/530244/ -SBC apologizes for slavery....in 1995.  https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1995-06-21-mn-15534-story.html -More on David Bebbington quadrilateral in defining Evangelicalism:  https://www.nae.net/what-is-an-evangelical/ Books about Religious Trauma Syndrome: Leaving the Fold by Marlene Winnell - http://marlenewinell.net/leaving-fold-former You are Your Own: A Reckoning With the Religious Trauma of Evangelical Christianity by Jamie Lee Finch - https://jamieleefinch.com/you-are-your-own CORRECTION:  Dave communicated that the Southern Baptist Convention had not condemned white supremacy.  In fact, they did condemn white supremacy but only after a seismic struggle.  Dave regrets the error.  https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/06/14/532998287/southern-baptist-convention-votes-to-condemn-white-supremacy -Check out Zach's music by going to:  https://muzach.bandcamp.com -Read Dave's occasional blogging at:  www.dangeroushope.wordpress.com. Twitter: @vcwpod Zach- @muzach Dave- @Davejlester Podcast music by Zach Malm Logo by Zach Malm

From the Non-Partisan Evangelical Podcast, Pastor Paul Swearengin joins us to talk about the reasons people are leaving the Evangelical church based on polling information given in a recent Gallup religion survey.  We discuss the toxic mixture of faith and political power, racism in the church, marginalization of LGBTQ people and people not believing they find Jesus in the general church anymore.  We also discuss the article "Losing Our Religion" by Russell Moore, the president of Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention. Find Pastor Paul online: -The Non-Partisan Evangelical Podcast:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/non-partisan-evangelical-podcast/id1481467496 -Pastor Paul on YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCabLAOY-w63Qn8SK37RRfhA -Pastor Paul on TikTok:  https://www.tiktok.com/@pastorpaul_tiktok?lang=en -On Twitter:  @oldpastorpaul Mentioned on the podcast: -Gallup survey results (47% of Americans belong to a church):  https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-below-majority-first-time.aspx -Russell Moore article "Losing Our Religion":  https://www.russellmoore.com/2021/04/15/losing-our-religion/ -A response to Russell Moore's article by Chrissy Stroop (we read this piece after recording the pod):  https://flux.community/chrissy-stroop/2021/04/suicidal-christian-teenagers-open-letter-russell-moore -Lil Nax X's music video for "Montero":  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6swmTBVI83k -Ally Henny's story on Pass the Mic Podcast:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/leave-loud-ally-hennys-story-part-1/id1435500798?i=1000513969746 More information on the Gallup survey results: -Holy Post Podcast episode 452:  https://www.holypost.com/holy-post-podcast/episode/24a32201/episode-452-the-messy-call-to-christian-unity-with-francis-chan -FiveThirtyEight Podcast "Americans Are Losing Their Religion.  That's Changing Politics.":  https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/politics-podcast-americans-are-losing-their-religion-thats-changing-politics/ -Check out Zach's music by going to:  https://muzach.bandcamp.com -Read Dave's occasional blogging at:  www.dangeroushope.wordpress.com. Twitter: @vcwpod Zach- @muzach Dave- @Davejlester Podcast music by Zach Malm Logo by Zach Malm