
The Divine Council Worldview Podcast
Welcome to the Divine Council Worldview Podcast, where hosts Ronn Johnson and Mike Chu honor the legacy of their late friend and colleague Dr. Michael S. Heiser (author of the best-selling book The Unseen Realm). Our interest is the Bible, studying it through the lens of its original authors and audience. We will specifically take notice of created divine beings and the role they play in the physical cosmos through the ultimate authority of Yahweh, the God of Israel. Join the fun conversation!
Latest episodes

Jun 29, 2025 • 51min
EP064: Divine Appointments and Deeper Truths
Mel, Rich, and Ronn unpack their experience at the Divine Council Worldview Conference, highlighting meaningful connections, diverse perspectives, and Spirit-led conversations. They dive into deep topics like the authority of Scripture, the role of the church fathers, and the centrality of atonement within the Divine Council framework. This episode is a reflection on unity, truth, and the shared mission of living out faith with purpose.

Jun 22, 2025 • 1h 17min
EP063: John 4 & the Woman at the Well
In this episode, Ronn and Mike explore the story of the woman of Samaria in John chapter 4. They discuss the theological implications of faith and loyalty, responding to critiques of Matthew Bates' work on salvation. The conversation also describes the historical context of the relationship between Jews and Samaritans, highlighting the long-standing conflict and its roots in biblical history. They discover that the historical and cultural context of Samaritan worship is ultimately what is at stake in Jesus' concern for this conversation. In conclusion, the dialogue emphasizes the transformative nature of true worship and the understanding of Jesus' role in bridging cultural divides.

Jun 8, 2025 • 1h 24min
EP062: Baptism, Purification, and Gentile Sanctification
In this episode, Ronn and Mike explore the various themes present in John 3:22-36: righteousness, sin, Jesus’ atonement, the significance of baptism, and the acceptance of Gentiles into the family of Abraham. Ronn particularly introduces his understanding of the Holy Spirit’s “sanctification” of Gentile communities in the upcoming Book of Acts, recommending that this idea will satisfy so many of the tensions both in the ministry of Jesus and the growth of the later church. They conclude by emphasizing the importance of understanding the gospel in the context of Abraham family dynamics and the unfulfilled story of Israel.

Jun 1, 2025 • 1h 41min
EP061: John 3:1-21: The Nicodemus Interview
In this episode, Ronn & Mike explore Nicodemus' interview with Jesus as recorded in John 3:1-21. They discuss the possiblew misconceptions surrounding the Mosaic law, the Jewish expectations of what a messiah would accomplish, the nature of Jesus' teachings, and the meaning behind the term 'born again.' The conversation highlights the historical context of the Pharisees and their relationship with Jesus, as well as the broader themes of Gentile inclusion and understanding what kind of thought world Jesus would have shared with someone like Nicodemus.

May 25, 2025 • 26min
EP060: Beyond the Silo: Michael Heiser’s Legacy and the Courage to Think Bigger
Recorded live at the DCW Conference in Indianapolis, Mel sits down with Jason Bostow, host of the Ring Them Bells podcast, for a powerful conversation on the legacy of Dr. Michael Heiser. They explore Heiser’s impact on biblical scholarship, the need for interdisciplinary boldness, and the personal stories inspiring Jason’s upcoming documentary.

May 18, 2025 • 1h 13min
EP059: Interview w/Dr. Matthew Bates on "Beyond the Salvation Wars"
In this discussion, Dr. Matthew Bates, a New Testament scholar and author of 'Beyond the Salvation Wars,' delves into the complexities of faith among various Christian denominations. He explores the Greek term 'pistis' and its implications for understanding loyalty to Christ, while addressing misconceptions about grace between Protestants and Catholics. Bates emphasizes the need for church unity and the importance of allegiance to the Gospel, proposing a fresh perspective on kingship in faith that could bridge the divides within Christianity.

May 11, 2025 • 1h 21min
EP058: John 2:23-25: Does Faith Include Loyalty?
In this episode, Ronn and Mike discuss the final three verses of John 2. This short passage allows their conversation to develop at length the concepts of “belief" and “faith” in both the Old Testament (Hebrew, aman) and the New Testament (Greek, pisteou). The study details the implications of Jesus' understanding of belief and loyalty when it comes to his expectation of “following” him into eternal life. Along the way they emphasize the importance of viewing faith as an expression of loyalty rather than as a passive acceptance of Jesus’ work on the cross, in the end critiquing modern theological interpretations of faith.

May 4, 2025 • 1h 20min
EP057: John 2:13-22: Jesus & the Law
In this episode, Ronn and Mike discuss Jesus’ cleansing of the Temple in John 2:13-22. They use this opportunity to then talk through the complexities of the Old Testament law, its interpretation within evangelicalism, and the historical context of the temple's significance. Their discussion highlights how Jesus' fulfillment of the law is often misunderstood and emphasizes the importance of cultural context in understanding biblical texts that deal with the challenges of how to understand biblical law in the modern age. They conclude by exploring the relationship between God’s giving of law and his desire to form a family which, in the end, does not need law in order to function.

Apr 27, 2025 • 1h 5min
EP056: From Skeptic to Storyteller: Jeff Lees on Faith, Art, and Reimagining the Image of God
In this episode of the Divine Council Worldview Podcast, Mel and Rich sit down with Jeff Lees to explore his remarkable journey from skepticism to a vibrant faith shaped by ministry, creativity, and the teachings of Dr. Michael Heiser. Jeff opens up about his time in youth ministry, his transition into art and toy design, and how these paths intersect through a deep passion for community and storytelling. Together, they challenge traditional interpretations of scripture, discuss the meaning of being image bearers of God, and highlight the transformative power of Christian creativity—including a bold vision for toys that bring biblical narratives to life. This conversation invites listeners into a thoughtful and open dialogue about faith, identity, and innovation.

Apr 20, 2025 • 1h 31min
EP055: John 2:1-12: Exploring Jesus' Miracles
In this episode, Ronn and Mike explore the significance of Jesus’ first recorded miracle, his turning of water into wine at the wedding of Cana. They discuss the implications and nature of miracles in the context of faith to Yahweh, especially in context of John’s original audience which would have known that created divine beings could perform miraculous deeds as well. Their conversation touches on personal experiences of miracles, the unique aspects of John's Gospel, and the possible reasons behind Jesus' miracles.