Protrusive Dental Podcast

Have you ever considered Dental Aid Work? Imagine giving up your morning starbucks and your air conditioned dental surgery to work in a developing country that has just 7 dentists. Fellow Protruserati, Dr James Hunter and his young family will be doing just this – they are preparing for a four-year mission to Liberia, Africa, to dedicate themselves to dental aid work. Follow along as we delve into their story of skill, passion, and humanitarianism. https://youtu.be/lzKVmuuUvBI Watch IC050 on Youtube Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below! Highlights of this Episode:00:00 Introduction2:52 From Theology to Dentistry5:35 Dr. James on Dentistry06:44 The Decision to Move to Liberia for Aid Work09:52 Understanding Liberia’s History and Needs15:28 The Future Plans for Dental Aid in Liberia18:37 Motivations Behind the Mission20:04 The Challenge of Committing to Charity Work20:57 Financial Planning, Schooling and Adaptation for Children Abroad26:40 Sharing Experiences and Encouraging Aid Work28:13 Raising Awareness and Support for the Mission32:09 Closing Thoughts and Encouragement Be sure to visit https://www.thehuntersinliberia.co.uk/ for details on supporting charity work in Liberia. Additionally, explore other charity websites in your country for more ways to make a difference locally. This episode is not eligible for CPD/CE points, but never fear, there are hundreds of hours of CPD waiting for you on the Protrusive App! For the full educational experience, our Ultimate Education Plan gives you access to all our courses, webinars, and exclusive monthly content. This includes Vertipreps for Plonkers and clinical videos demonstrating Onlay Preps. If you enjoyed this episode, don’t miss out on watching “The International Dental Student – From Ukraine to Egypt to Slovakia – IC047” Click below for full episode transcript: Jaz's Introduction: As dentists, we are in a privileged position. I know it's sometimes hard to fathom that and hard to come to terms with that because of all the doom and gloom that we sometimes like to focus on. Jaz’s Introduction:But really, we are in a beautiful profession, and we can actually mold our profession how we want to. Now, there might come a time in your life, if you’re that way inclined, to take your career towards dental aid. This could be at the start, the middle, or even towards the end of your career, which is quite popular, to donate yourself, donate your skills to charity. This could be in a refugee camp, this could be in a third world country, to provide a much needed dental service. So on today’s episode, I’ve got Dr. James Hunter, who, with his family, so him, his two kids, his wife, are moving to Liberia, which is a small country in Africa, and he’s going to be, hopefully, working there for about four years. That’s his provisional plan, along with his family, providing dental aid, which I just think it’s so so noble. So, what this episode wants to do is basically let you know about the different aid opportunities out there. And actually, just had this interview with James to find out what are his motivations. How do you get involved with this? But how did you even have that difficult conversation with your spouse, with your children, that you’re going to move to this country in Africa and for the next four years of your life you’re going to leave the rat race? You see, a lot of us would struggle to say, you know what, I’m going to give up the income, I’m going to give up the house, give up the practice, give up the cars and move to a third world country and work for free and just do a beautiful charitable thing, which is exactly what James and his family are doing. But James and his family are very, very rare individuals. They are gems. They are the gems of this planet. And I want his story to come out and it might inspire you. It might inspire you to maybe take two weeks out of the year to do some dental aid work. It might inspire you to just take the next step and actually start researching about, hmm, at what stage in your career might it be worthwhile and possible for you to give back to the world? Because there’s so many countries where we could help. We could actually give some dental aid. We can actually serve through our skills and our knowledge. Hello, Protruserati, I’m Jaz Gulati and I’m the host of Protrusive Dental Podcast. If you’re new to the podcast, great to have you here. If you’re a returning listener or watcher, thanks so much for coming back again. This is an Interference Cast. This is a non-clinical arm of the podcast. Got loads of other clinical episodes and CPD and this particular episode is not eligible for CPD, but it’s got lots of gems in there, but I think this will inspire. I think this is one of those episodes which you take away and you become inspired about such good out there in the world and we start focusing on and how you might be able to also contribute to the world and how our skills can benefit the world. In this instance through a charitable cause. But we are in a privileged profession to be able to help and of course, get people out of pain and cure infections. So let’s listen to James now. Why is he and his family moving to Liberia for four years? Leaving the rat race and doing this beautiful, beautiful thing. Let’s find out. Main Episode:James Hunter, welcome to Protrusive Dental Podcast, my friend. How are you? [James]Yeah, good. Thank you. Thanks for having me on. [Jaz]I’m very excited to unpack your story. I mean, I have a gazillion questions. You don’t even believe that. When I read your proposition, which I’m so excited to tell everyone, I was like, how, like, it’s just brilliant. So just tell us about, like, just go back to the beginning. Tell us about you as a human, as a dentist, and what are the different steps that culminated in you doing this soon, this huge aid work abroad? [James]Cool. Yeah. I say, thanks for having me on again. I’ve been listening to you since my foundation training. So I say, I think, you’ve probably had a bigger impact on my dental career so far than my degree did. So yeah, it’s awesome to be on. So studied dentistry in Cardiff. Graduated reasonably recently. I’m 33 but did it as a mature student. So I graduated in 2019. Prior to that, I actually did a degree in theology. So kind of back at A levels, I was more interested in humanities. So I did Latin maths and ancient history at A level, and then I went to Exeter to do classics. And then I kind of, during the summer, wanted to switch to do half classics, half theology. And then after my first week there, I decided I never wanted to do Latin again. So, did a three-year degree in theology, which I loved and in first year met my wife. So got engaged at the end of second year. And it was at that point where I was like getting ready for our wedding at the end of third year. And I was like, flip, I need to get a job if I’m going to get married after this. And it suddenly like dawned on me Theology, like I really enjoyed studied it, but it’s kind of a degree that leads you to apply for kind of grad schemes. And I realized none of those really suited me. I mean. [Jaz]That’s a huge transition, isn’t it? That’s a huge transition going from the humanities and theology to dentistry. So yeah, I mean, tell us more about that. [James]Well, I think I was really not sure about what I wanted to do and felt like I was dawdling. So I kind of got, tried to get as much work experience as I could in different places. I got a work experience place with my old dentist and absolutely loved it. I just thought, how have I not thought of this as a career? So I made a really big change and decided to apply for a dentistry degree. So I had to do it with a prelim year. So it ended up, there was only a few uni’s which offered that, but ended up getting into Cardiff. So we got married and moved to Cardiff. I did a year, preliminary year at the beginning. Which I hate to say is, I don’t want to say it’s a waste of time, but it was probably a bit of a waste of time that first year. Like I remember one of my first assignments was doing a prostho project on nudibranchs, those sea slugs. [Jaz]Oh, wow. [James]So I remember thinking this didn’t feel super relevant to dentistry, but so I did that, absolutely loved dentistry at uni. I really kind of feel like, even though it wasn’t something that was on my radar, kind of through school. I feel like when I started, I just realized it was a really, really perfect fit for me. [Jaz]Can I just unpack that? Cause we’re talking while we’re recording, it is in the middle of a stress awareness month. So decisions that we make and where we go into like your perception of what dentistry was. As a mature student, someone who had a few more years under your belt, had been the real world a bit, and then you did some work experience and you thought, okay, this is cool for you. What is it that gripped you about dentistry at that work experience? What are the things that you saw that, okay, this suits you better than the grad scheme? And then also just tell me, when you became a dentist, did the perception meet the reality? [James]So I think the two main things for me were just the variety of patient interaction. I absolutely loved that. I really loved watching that guy for a week and just seeing the variety of patients coming through the doors, interacting with kind of sweet old ladies with their dentures and kids. And that coupled with, I think just a really, really intricate kind of technical aspects of dentistry. I used to love doing kind of airfix models when I was a kid. And so seeing him kind of working through his loops and doing these kind of fine mechanical things, I thought I’m going to love that. And yeah, that’s kind of the elements of dentistry I really enjoyed throughout my degree. And then I think now working in general practice, that’s definitely the element I love. Yeah. In my happy place is kind of working on a tooth under rubber dam, just little fine things. And then, yeah, just getting to know patients. Like I’ve been working at the same practice for about three and a bit years now. And it’s just really lovely kind of seeing the same patients in the now getting a relationship with them. [Jaz]So, but you’re leaving them all now. [James]I would say the thing which put me onto it the first bit. Yes. Yeah. [Jaz]So tell us about this huge, I mean, so it’s basically like, probably in the intro would have already spilled the beans about you moving to Liberia with your family, right? [James]Yeah. [Jaz]So just tell us about how this came to fruition. [James]So I guess short term and long term. So like long term my wife and I had always, since we first met, we’d like the idea of going and doing aid work in some capacity in the future. [Jaz]And your wife is, what kind of industry is she in? [James]So she’s been a stay-at-home mum for the last five years. So she did the theology degree. After that, she did a master’s and then worked for a charity. So she’s non-medical. [Jaz]But the relevance there is that she already had this, she already worked for a charity. She had that sort of inner desire to help and very charitable values already embodied within her. [James]Exactly. Yeah. So I’d say it was kind of a mutual thing that we’d both wanted to do that in some capacity. And then, making the change to do dentistry, suddenly it gave me something tangible and practical to use. Right at the very beginning when I was kind of applying for the dental degree, it was timing that in that summer after my theology degree ended, I went out to Sierra Leone for a few weeks to visit some friends who were doing kind of kids aid work in a charity in Crewe Bay in Sierra Leone, and I saw there was a local dental practitioner in the hospital there. So I went and saw him for a day right at the very beginning. And I think even just spending a day with him in this clinic in Sierra Leone, kind of stuck in my mind as, okay, I think this is something which we should work towards. It was kind of all through the back of our mind during like the dental degree. So actually we’ve got a five year old boy and a three year old girl. And we had my son at the end of fourth year. So kind of had him, had a kind of a new baby also fifth year. And it meant that wasn’t the ideal time. It’s funny. It’s a mix. It was tough in some respects, but it was also so lovely. You know, the hours at uni, although you’ve got a lot of tough study, quite flexible. So, I remember kind of walking around the park in Cardiff with him strapped onto me with my flashcards, like revising, which, was lovely in some aspects, but so we kind of, I did my finished my degree then had my foundation training in Cardiff and yeah, we kind of looked into doing maybe the kind of an aid work move straight off the foundation training, but then COVID hit. Bang through the middle of it. So that put a bit of a halt on everything there. So we kind of just into the back of our mind and then we can kind of get onto the way we heard about it. Like, so all through the dental degree, I’ve been part of the Christian Dental Fellowship and they’ve got a kind of a quarterly newsletter, which they kind of go through. They’ve got a few kind of mission work aid work partners around the world. So they were kind of talking about different things which they were doing. So I think that again, kind of put us onto that as something in our mind to go do, and basically now our kids are five and three. We both earlier last year felt that now was maybe the time when they’re young prior to being more established at school. And so, yeah, we’ve been kind of pushing that door for the last almost 12 months now. [Jaz]Amazing. So your five year old is in on it. He, is it he or she? [James]Yeah, they’re all in on it. Yeah. He, yeah, Max. [Jaz]Max knows. Max knows and he’s come to terms and he’s looking forward to it kind of thing. You brainwashed him enough. Yeah? [James]Yeah, absolutely. Selling it to him, yeah, selling it to him so he can go, yeah, hunting crabs on the beach and stuff like that. [Jaz]Very cool. Well, why Liberia and where is, for those who may not be geographically gifted, where is Liberia in the world and what is the current situation? Why do they need aid work? [James]Okay. So Liberia is a relatively small country in West Africa. It’s about half the size of the UK in terms of size. And it’s got a population of just over 5 million. It’s bordered by the Atlantic Ocean, Sierra Leone, Guinea, and Ivory Coast. It’s in that kind of area of Africa. Yeah. I mean, the reason we’ve ended up choosing there is that through that Christian Dental Fellowship magazine. We heard about an organization called SIM, which is kind of like a Christian organization, which has lots of different things. They do kind of disaster relief, sports, teaching, Bible translating, and lots of medical stuff. And so they’ve got kind of dental outreach things all over the world. And they’re kind of set up for longer term stuff. And so we just sent off an application to them and just said, we would be interested in kind of hearing about what the options are and, I think that, big takeaway is that there are a lot of opportunities for dentists to do aid work. We are really needed all over the world. And so we got sent Madagascar, Peru, Paraguay, Senegal. Yeah. Lots of different places, but one of them was Liberia. We found the dentist who’s currently the lead dentist of the clinic we’d be going to a YouTube presentation about his work out there. Although maybe a Africa wasn’t our first choice from kind of a top destination to go to. I think, you know, we got off at some places which were basically like Madagascar would be really cool to go to, but just hearing about this guy’s work was really amazing. I don’t know. I can talk a bit about the, kind of the, I think the context of the recent history of Liberia is quite useful to set up maybe kind of why and what they’re doing. Yeah. Liberia is basically a country where it’s super tough. recent history. They got a new country. It was set up like at the, basically the early 19th century as an outpost for freed slaves from America to go back to Africa. [Jaz]Hence the name Liberia, freedom, liberate. [James]Exactly. And even like the Liberian flag is kind of like a single starred version of the United States flag. I don’t think it was ever officially a colony, but it was kind of originally established as that. And so over the course of about 25 years, 4, 000 or so freed slaves from America moved to Liberia. Only about 1800 people survived just from the harsh conditions and tropical diseases, but it eventually achieved independence in 1847. And after that, basically the. America Liberians, who’d been these free slaves, they kind of ruled or were in charge more or less socially and politically of the country. And that led to quite a lot of tension that eventually kind of bubbled up and led to a violent military coup in 1980. And so the America Liberian president was killed. And the first indigenous Liberian president kind of established control as the new president, his government was kind of overrun with nepotism and corruption. And there was persecution of rival tribes. And that led to then a really brutal seven year civil war from 1989 to ‘ 97. During that period, about 200, 000 people were killed and hundreds of thousands of Liberians were kind of had to flee as refugees. There was a tentative two year piece at the end of that. The guy who came It was in control after this guy called Charles Taylor, I think he campaigned on the slogan. He killed my ma. He killed my pa. We will vote for him. So it was kind of a tentative piece for a couple of years. And then that spilled over into a second four year civil war in 1999. And that led to almost a quarter of a million people being killed and almost a million people being displaced into neighboring countries. So it’s had a, like in recent history, a really devastating history that’s left the whole country kind of in a really- [Jaz]Well James, thanks for educating us. But like how is how is it now? Is it are you scared not just generally because the change but regarding the political stability and that kind of stuff Is there a fear element there? [James]I don’t think so now. Yeah, which is really good. So since that finished since that civil war finished in 2003, they’ve had kind of fair and free elections, most recently Former president was George Weah, who was former FIFA footballer of the year. He spoke at AC Milan and he recently lost and there was a peaceful transition. So I think that the takeaway is that it’s a country with a hard past, but it’s, it’s like rebuilding itself. And the thing that’s hard is that in the backdrop of all this, a lot of the infrastructure for medical stuff was destroyed. And so on the organization that we’re moving with, they established a radio station prior to the war and then hospital. A lot of that was just destroyed. It was rebuilt after the civil war. And in 2008, the mercy ships were in Freetown. So not in Freetown, in Monrovia. And two dental clinicians felt that there was a real need for a land-based facility for dental care in Liberia. So it was nothing like that at the time. So they established a dental clinic in the hospital on the compound that we’re going to be moving to. That was kind of originally manned by kind of a mixture of expats and Liberians. But most recently in 2017, the guy who’s currently running it, there’s this guy called Simon Stretton-Downes, OBE, which I’ll mention, so don’t tell me off otherwise. But, he moved there. It was going to be run by a couple of Liberian clinicians who weren’t dentists but had kind of some informal training and they were doing things like extractions and fillings and cool stuff like jaw wiring after motorcycle accidents. They taught Simon how to do that. And so he turned up. And. he’s kind of transitioned the clinic into a new phase, which I could talk about unless you want to, you want to jump in. I’m talking. [Jaz]I have a million questions. Cause I think what you’re doing is so noble, so brilliant, but just tell us about just some facts. Like you’re doing this project. You’ve got like this, you had some time, think about it. You’ve had time with the family to make a position. What is the plan? Like when are you going? And when do you envisage you’ll be done? Is there a tentative end date where you think, okay, we’re going to come back to the UK. Like what are your rough plans? Obviously, life throws things at you and you may change and you make decisions dynamically. But what’s your rough plan? [James]So our rough plan is to move out there January 25. The reason why we’re kind of hoping to go with that period of time is that the guy who’s running it at the moment is in his kind of mid 60s and he’s due to retire. They’ve kind of had a, I think, seven years there and they said that they were going to stay until the dentist who was originally there, or the guy who was originally when they arrived, they put him through dental school in Nairobi, waiting for him to graduate. And so he’s graduating hopefully beginning of next year. And then they are looking to retire in the middle of the year. And so they’ve got a team of four expat dentists at the moment, the main guy, Simon, Lady Melvina, who works there a couple of days a week. And then two dentists who arrived last year from India called, Renju and Serin. But all of them, apart from Melvina, got kind of maybe a bit of uncertainty about how long they’re going to be staying there. So it’s in this transition period. So we’re hoping to try and arrive and fill that gap. One of the things that’s amazing about what Simon’s done is he’s kind of worked on the clinic. To expand that, there’s a team of about 40 now, about 20 clinical, one Liberian dentists, three more who are due to kind of qualify in the next few years. What’s really cool is that he’s established the first kind of dental training facility in Liberia. So he started something called the Liberian Dental Therapy School. And the aim is for that to be a really sustainable, ongoing positive impact for the dental care in Liberia, because they have no dental school, no training. They’re really relying on people training externally and coming in or expect dentists coming in. Whereas with this plan, they’re training hopefully seven therapists a year. The aim is 70 over the next 10 years to basically receiver degree is being credited by Peninsula Dental School and there’s a university in Liberia who are kind of awarding it. And the aim is that they’ll learn how to do basic dentistry that they can carry out with DentAid field kits, which are being kind of donated to the graduates. And then they’ll go back to their counties. At the moment, only kind of a small area of Liberia has any kind of dental care. And so we’re kind of going to be there probably for the first stint about we’re aiming for a four year initial period, the organization, which we’re going with want us, they kind of want us to come back at two years and reassess, which we will do. But the guy, Simon, he was kind of more or less saying, look, I’d mentally prepare for four because your first year is going to fly by. Just at year two, you’ll probably feel like you’re getting your feet under the table. And then all of a sudden you’ll be leaving. So the aim is January 25 for about four years. We’re kind of mentally preparing for. [Jaz]When you think about when we were entering dental school and then people had different motivations in life, right? People had, I’ll be honest, lots of friends will say, openly say, or secretly say to me, you know what? I kind of Googled high paying jobs. I saw a dentist and I went into dentistry for that reason. A lot of colleagues will say that. A lot of colleagues also say, oh yeah, I like my work experience or I had braces and therefore I like the positive impact it gave me. I like the cosmetic side, whatever. You’ve sort of described about your journey in dentistry, but what I want to know now is, what is your prime motivator in doing this amazing thing in Liberia to help a nation, help a community, help with such a huge task, healthcare related? What are yours and your family’s motivation over the next four years to contribute to this? [James]Yeah. So I heard you on the dental masters podcast once say, don’t talk about politics or religion, but- [Jaz]Go for it. I’ll make an exception. [James]Yeah. My wife and I are both strong Christians. And so I think even when we first met. Wanting to, to go do some kind of aid work in some capacity was really on our hearts, ultimately as a Christian, I think I have one life and I want to use it well to do the work that I feel God has installed for me. And I’m not saying that I decided to do dentistry for purely altruistic reasons or anything like that. I thought it was a career that really suited me, and I really love it. But I think just at this period, it works really well for our family, for this to be a period where we explore going to do this and it’s been on our hearts and minds for a number of years now, and my wife and I both felt that kind of tug kind of grow last year. And so yeah, ultimately I would say that- [Jaz]The Christian values is to fulfill those Christian values, isn’t it really? [James]Yeah. [Jaz]Yeah. Very good. I mean, what I’m thinking is- [James]I give an account from my works. [Jaz]Yes, absolutely. Well, I think a lot of co colleagues, if you said to them that, okay, drop everything you’re doing, drop your practice, drop your Invisalign, drop your tools, and do some charity work, four years, it sounds like a great thing to do. Obviously it sounds wonderful. But to actually commit to that is a huge deal because what happens is we enter the rat race, we enter the rat race, we get a mortgage. We think, okay, keeping up with the Joneses, get a two bedroom house, get a three bedroom house, expand, get a practice, get a second practice. The whole thing about possession, the material, you enter the rat race. And that’s one of the reasons why me and my wife went to Singapore when we did, because we hadn’t entered the rat race. We were just fresh out from hospital. And we thought, okay, if we get a mortgage now, we’ll enter the rat race and we’ll never get to travel kind of thing. And so we did that. We worked in Singapore privately, which is great. And we also traveled, which is great. What you’re doing here is like, wow. Like it’s altruism, but it’s also this scratching an itch of doing something that is a really once in a lifetime, like amazing thing that you’re gearing up to do. But do you have any doubts about leaving the rat race and your financial future for your kids? And also, I also want to just talk about schooling and what the schooling situation will be like, and what have you got for the future? I’m just very interested in thinking about the kind of doubts average dentist would have about dropping everything four years. [James]Yeah, I mean, I 100 percent agree with that. One of the things my wife and I always said was that we would like it ideally to kind of coincide with a transition period in my job. I’ve been really fortunate. I straight out of foundation training year, got a job at a really lovely practice that I love working at. It’s basically private. So I’ve been able to go straight into kind of doing dentistry to the standard I really wanted to be able to do it to. It’s 10 minute drive from my house. So it’s by the beach. So it feels like it was. Kind of a bit of a mad decision to blow up what such is a lovely setup, but my practice principal is kind of getting to the stage where he’s maybe looking to retire and I think it’s probably going to coincide maybe reasonably nicely as a transitional period where maybe I would be having to look for different work anyway, and you’re right. It kind of, that decision you were saying about yourself, I kind of figure if actually, if we don’t do it now, if I stop handing my CVs out elsewhere and get established in a new practice, then all of a sudden my kid’s going to be older and it’s going to be harder to do. But yeah, definitely have doubts. I hope that it all goes really smoothly. [Jaz]And we all do. We are all on your side. [James]Oh, thanks man. We’re fortunate as dentists in that we do have a really well paying job. And so I think that takes a little bit of, not the stress off, but- [Jaz]Anxiety, maybe like financial anxiety. [James]It’s going to be four years. Yeah. So I think, we’ve been able to save up money to put towards this. We’re fortunate that we own our house. We’ve got a mortgage, but we own it. And there’s probably a bit of peace of mind that comes from knowing that, okay, four years. Maybe we’re not earning, I could have been earning in the UK or anything, but hopefully I’m going to be able to come back with maybe even more increased skills and walk into a job that’s really well paid again. And I’ll have maybe had a bit less for my retirement, but it’s not going to be the difference between my family kind of not having, roof over their head. So, we’re fortunate in that position as dentists. [Jaz]I mean, in the four years, you’re not wealth building in these four years that are coming, but what you are building is, I’m just amazed, I’m just imagining you there now and the quality time that you get to spend with your children and what you get to teach them about the world. That whole, all the learning experiences. So tell me about just schooling. Like, are you going to be homeschooling? Is there a school? I mean, obviously you’re doing better both obviously as well. What do you got in mind regarding schooling? [James]I think if homeschooling was on the table, my wife would a hundred percent not go. Like my boy is really busy. So there’s a small kind of co op led school. So the place we’re going it’s kind of a campus compound just outside Monrovia. It’s got a hospital, it’s got a radio station, dental school. And then it’s got a small school for the workers who are kind of working within the hospital. It’s a little bit unsure as to whether or not, or how that’s going to work yet. There was a little bit of uncertainty with the teachers just because people come and go, but yeah, basically they’re going to be going through an accredited US style schooling system. So we went and looked at it. It was really sweet, kind of multi year, just all groups, 18 different nationalities, all in the school of kind of 50 kids, maybe it was even less than that. But so yeah, my boy will be kind of jumping in there. My little girl, I think will be at the beginning a bit young for it. So I think she’s in the kind of a more of a preschool sort of age. Yeah, it’s mixed for the kids. I know they’re going to be homesick within some capacity. We’re taking them away from a really lovely place. I live in Cornwall by the beach and my kids just love being in the sea. One of the things that’s really amazing is that the campus is literally just on the Atlantic ocean. So the little bungalow we’ll be in a stone’s throw from the beach. So I’m kind of selling it to my son that he can catch crabs and boogie board, every day after school. And they’ve got, it’s going to be exciting for them. And I think they’re at an age where I think when we went there, all of the kids who were younger were having an absolute blast. And then there were a couple of teenagers who were maybe having a bit less fun because the people who they’d grown up with had left and they are maybe missing out on maybe the more teenage sort of age. But my son’s five, he’ll be six when we go and we’ll come back when he’s 10. I imagine he’ll have a blast and it’s nice, like you say, spending quality time with them. My little boy will be able to just bicycle up the road to the clinic I’m working at and come hold my mirror if I’m taking out teeth and stuff like that. He can be part of that. [Jaz]Absolutely phenomenal. It reminds me of Alicia yesterday. I saw a patient, lovely lady, and she was telling me how she went to Argentina just last Christmas. I was seeing her the next checkup, so before the last checkup and this checkup, she went to Argentina for Christmas. I said, why did you go to Argentina? And she told me, okay, her son actually was meeting her there, and her son lives in Costa Rica. And she’s telling me that her son is, he tried the whole corporate route and stuff and it just wasn’t for him. And so what he does now is he’s like, I don’t even want to say a deep sea diver. He’s some sort of a, he works in the water and he basically saves turtles and tortoises, like an orphanage looks after them, right? And she said to me, look, he, all he owns is a rucksack. That’s all he owns, right? But he’s found a life partner. He’s got his rucksack and he goes from place to place in Costa Rica, saving these turtles, right? And he’s happy. Right? And I thought that is the ultimate liberation. That’s living life on your terms, doing what you want to do, exploring the beauty and nature of life. I’m not comparing what you’re doing to what he’s doing. They’re still very different. But what I’m trying to say, I’m trying to just highlight the fact that you are living life on your terms, James. You decided, you and your wife have decided, and your family decided to do something absolutely epic. I wish you and your family all the success. And success, I measure as a number of people that you’ll be able to help. The number of experiences and memories that you’ll be able to make, that for me will be success. So what I would love for you to do, James, is, are you on Protrusive Guidance? [James]Yeah. [Jaz]I want you, if you can, when you get the chance, every month, just put a photo. How was your month? A little blog. We would love that. Honestly. And like, if you want to put like a GoFundMe link there, we would love to support it. Just, just keep posting us. We want to support our community. So I would absolutely love to see some photos of your son in the beach with the crabs or some of the patients able to help or just the Atlantic ocean from you and your bungalow. It would be absolutely brilliant to keep the story going to give us a flavor of this. Would you be up for doing that? [James]Absolutely. Yeah. I’d appreciate that. And yeah, I’d really, yeah, I’d love to. Yeah I’m going to try and look at a website under progress and try and get some social media around. So yeah, I’d absolutely love to share it with you guys. That’s one of the thing I really want to, I’m so grateful you’re having me on this podcast is that, I really want to get dentists involved and behind me so I can share our difficult clinical experiences. [Jaz]And do you think there’s scope for maybe dental students doing an elective with you or dentists come out and spend a couple of weeks to help out? Have you thought about this kind of stuff? [James]I have thought about it. Yeah. I’d absolutely love that. I think probably the sort of thing I’d need to work out when we’re there, but yeah, definitely. I’d absolutely love that. [Jaz] Please, please think about it. Please sort of set up a program, something to make it easy for dental students or dentists to come and help you out and just get a flavor of this as well. I think that’d be a great thing for your clinic to get some more help, but also for people looking for an experience, looking to actually be altruistic and give back to the greater community of the world, which leads me to my last question is like, obviously, with the magazine that you had and the Christian values and stuff, you found this place. But what are the other options that dentists have to do aid work? Obviously, we’re in the UK, so we’re talking from a UK perspective, but this could be anywhere in the world. Dentists from America, dentists from New Zealand, wherever. Where can you find aid work to contribute to? [James]Yeah. So, I mean, I think, like I said, there’s an abundance really, I think it’s probably helpful to kind of split it up into maybe short term and long term short term is a lot, I think, easier to find because there’s a lot of organizations which are set up for that. So, in the UK you probably heard Dentaid. There’s another one called Bridge2Aid. There’s one called Work the World, which is for kind of student electives. The Mercy Ships, people have heard of. There’s another one called, World Medical Mission, which is a kind of organization with Samaritan’s Purse who do the shoe boxes and the Doctors Without Borders. But so all those- [Jaz] There’s also the refugee camp for the displaced refugees in the Greek islands and stuff. There’s lots of great work by Dr. Ola Hassan. They’ve been doing that as well. So you’re right. I think you just have to start looking for it. When you open your eyes, when you open your mind to the opportunities, opportunities start coming to you, right? [James]Yeah. I almost feel like you can pick a country, type in that country, dental aid work, and you will find something. [Jaz]Let me try this. Las Vegas. No, I’m just kidding. No, no, I mean, I think you’re right. I think there’s so many different ways to do it. What other advice could you give to someone considering aid work? [James]So I hope I have more advice when I’m actually out there. Did you do an elective as part of? [Jaz]Yeah, I’m so glad you mentioned my elective. Did it in Vietnam. We did it with a charity East meets West, and that was fantastic. Went to this remote area of Vietnam. We helped out with extractions, fillings, fluoride, fluoride, oral health instructions. And then we had this little trailer next to a school doing fisher sealants and stuff. And that was great. And actually, the funny thing about DentAid is I asked DentAid, this is like 13 years ago, I asked DentAid, look, can you contribute something? Can you give us something? We’re going there. We’d like to give them some tools. And so this huge shipment of like luxators and forceps and stuff comes to our uni flat. And like, how the bloody hell are we going to take this to Vietnam by international airways? And no one put a line. It went through security, went through everything. No one said anything. We took all these like instruments and stuff, some in our rucksack, some in luggage, they may all manage to get through. And then we gave it to them and then they said, okay, how much is it worth? And I don’t know where it’s worth. So we just wrote 10, 000 on it. Cause it’s really heavy. We were at 10, 000 and we gave it to them. Like here’s all the instruments. So shout out to DentAid for being so helpful back then, which is amazing. So yeah, elective, you’re right. We just searched it up and we knew some people who’d done East meets West before. So that was a fantastic experience. [James]That’s cool. It’s funny. We went out to Liberia last year as a RECCE and we had a similar experience and brought two, three suitcases full of dental stuff and they got really sketchy about all the anesthetic car peels since we spent the first three hours in the security in the back room in Liberia airport. And I explain to them what we’re doing with all these drugs and needles. [Jaz]No, but here’s a funny thing, James, is that of all the instruments and stuff, right? You know what they hung me up on? You know what they stopped me in security for? They didn’t stop me for the Luxator. They didn’t stop me for the metal instruments. They stopped me for my hairspray. [James]Nice. [Jaz]Sorry, you were saying? [James]Dangerously stylish. [Jaz]So that’s the beard. [James]I was just saying for the longer term stuff, I thought it almost seemed a bit harder to find longer term stuff, but I guess all of the short term. Institutions have people working longer term for them. So I think if you probably are well connected in all of those, you can find other ones, but I think the rest of them is, it seems to mostly be kind of medical clinics that have set up kind of by either mission or aid or religious organizations. So yeah, I found it was maybe a little bit tougher to find longer term options. Yeah. I think the same sort of rules apply. And just changing the search to this country longer term mission support, longer term dental aid. [Jaz]You’re right. I think if you open up yourself, the opportunities that there will be there and keep speaking to people in that space. So James, I want to know, are you looking to raise some money towards the mission stuff? How can we help you, my friend? [James]Yeah. So we are the group we’re going with. They operate on a kind of a support raised fundraising platform. So the charity itself doesn’t have money, which it’s able to give to the workers. It’s kind of set up a bit like a mercy ship. So my wife and I have been thinking about this for a long time. So we’ve got a reasonably substantial amount of savings, which we’re able to put towards it. But the budget for our year, which is, all our flights, accommodation, medical insurance, evacuation insurance, food and drink, internet, electricity, basically all of our living expenses in Liberia comes to, I’m in the car, I’m running a car, comes to about 50, 000 a year. Which was way more than we’d originally thought it would be. But I think as a result of basically the destruction of the infrastructure in the country, it’s just, everything’s really, really expensive. Yeah. And schooling, for the kids. So we’re looking to raise that from kind of friends and family. That’s also why I really wanted to get dentists involved because I feel like, although my friends and family kind of understand what we’re doing, unless you are clinical, I think that it gives you kind of a different perspective on the sort of need that might be being met. So I really would love just to have, like you say, have the Protruserati behind me just to say that I feel like I’ve got people to talk to if I’m having that, if I need to about things and just to share the journey with other people. [Jaz]We would love that. We would love for you to speak to us and we would love to post images. And I would love for you to just keep reminding us of that donation link, because it might not be the right time for someone now, but in three months time, it might be the right someone. If everyone just gives up their 10 pound latte for a couple of weeks and actually just puts it towards your fantastic cause, it’ll be good. [James]I mean, that’s my thought. I mean, it feels, it feels really weird asking people for money, but you know, I kind of think if I can get, if we can get lots of people involved, if we had a thousand dentists who thought this was a cool thing and they gave a pound a week that would more than cover our year. And it means that we’d be able to stay for as long as we need to. I think it’s a sensible idea, but our organization, they don’t allow you to go until you’ve raised 90 percent of your first year because they don’t want a situation where you’re out there and then run out of funding. So we’re kind of in a bit of a limbo land at the moment where we’re kind of mentally preparing to go in January, but it’s contingent on us actually getting the funding required. We’ll be in a bit of a funny position, I guess, in towards the year, maybe getting a bit. [Jaz]Let’s see what the Protruserati can do. They’re very altruistic bunch as well. They helped a lot with Nafisa, who’s just about raised a million dollars. Like this wasn’t all from just Protruserati, this was from all over the world. A lot of the stuff they did, but they, they were very generous. And so it’s nice to support charitable projects like yourselves, James. So what I’m going to do is, do you know the link off by heart? Is there a link that I can, I’m going to, we’ll talk about the link and I’ll put it in the show notes anyway. But is there a link that you can publicize now? [James]I think the easiest thing is to go to our website. So it’s just www. thehuntersinliberia. co. uk. And that has kind of all the information about what we’re doing. It’s got social media links and it’s got links to the ways in which you can support us either through one off givings or regular givings. So yeah, all the information to be found on there. [Jaz]I will definitely be setting up something like a regular thing for you. So leave that to me. I’m going to make the website protrusive.co.uk/liberia. And I’ll get that to basically anyone who goes on that website. We’ll go to your, we’ll just redirect basically to yours. So I’ve just written that a note for that. So, Erika, Krissel, team, can you please help me set that link up? That’d be great. So they will do that. And please, please keep us posted about the wonderful work that you’ve been doing in Liberia. I hope everything goes amazing. We’re all rooting for you. And hopefully it may even open up the door for students and dentists for the protrusive community to visit you and help out and maybe visit neighboring nations and really create a movement here, right of helping just this wonderful thing that you’re doing. So James, thanks so much for your time, but thanks so much for being just a fantastic human. You and your family have touched me. Like, I’m feeling very, just privileged to be able to speak to someone like you, who’s doing sending out good vibes into the world, like really into the world. So more power to you. And I hope, I wish you guys all the health and success. [James]I appreciate it, man. It’s been, yeah, it’s been awesome being on the podcast. Thanks so much for having me. Jaz’s Outro:Well, there we have it guys. Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. If you’re feeling inspired, if you have some budget, you know how as a business, if you contribute to charity, that’s actually tax deductible. I think every business should be looking to allocate a percentage of its pot to a charitable cause. So if you have some funds left in your annual budget for your charitable donations, then please do consider supporting one of our own, Protruserati, James and his family, so they can deliver this aid work in Liberia. I would want you to visit protrusive.co.uk/liberia, but also join Protrusive Guidance. On Protrusive Guidance, which is. www. protrusive. app so you can actually access on Safari or Chrome, but you can also download the native app as well. And on there, I’ve asked James, once he goes there, to do monthly updates. Now that you’ve listened this far, don’t you wanna see what James gets up to? His adventure, his charitable, beautiful cause that he’s looking to do in Liberia. So if you want to stay up to date with everything he’s doing, do join Protrusive Guidance and watch out for those posts, but once again, it would be great for us to kind of club together and help support, I’ll be setting up a monthly donation myself for this cause. So if you want to get involved, check out protrusive.co.uk/liberia to donate to James. James, we wish you all the best. We are so, so proud of you really are a rare individual and you wish you all the best to the protrusive community. Thanks again for listening to the end. I’ll catch you same time, same place next week. Bye for now.

Dr. Alan Burgin and the host discuss the shift towards lithium disilicate onlays, the relevance of full crowns, and factors influencing restoration choices. They share decision-making trees for indirect restorations and highlight the importance of clinical factors in selecting overlays vs. Vertipreps. The episode offers insights into restorative dentistry trends and practical tips for smile trials and bis-acryl mock-ups.

Clinical Dentistry is a steep learning curve – it can be frustrating, frightening and quite frankly exhilarating. This episode (better late than never! My wife finished her MSc so now I’m back on track!) picks up the theme of Stress Awareness and I discuss with Emma Hutchinson, our Protrusive Student, how students can manage stress effectively, prioritize their studies, and identify their unique learning styles.  We also address imposter syndrome and the various difficulties encountered while learning something as complex as dentistry. https://youtu.be/EIXeUvlTams Highlights of this episode:00:00 Introduction03:25 Welcoming Emma Back04:16 Protrusive Students06:30 Dentistry Students vs Other Courses08:24 Hobbies and Activities Outside of Dental School12:50 Communication Style14:48 Student-Life Balance19:01 Past Papers during Exam Time21:00 Networking in Dentistry28:51 Burnout and Mental Health Perspective33:45 Next Month – Orthodontics This episode is not eligible for CPD/CE points, but never fear, there are hundreds of hours of CPD waiting for you on the Protrusive App! For the full educational experience, our Ultimate Education Plan gives you access to all our courses, webinars, and exclusive monthly content. Join us on Protrusive Guidance, our own platform for dental professionals. No need for Facebook anymore! 😉 If you love this episode, be sure to watch Adhesive Dentistry for Beginners – PS002

Dr. Joe Bhat and Neel Jeiswal discuss the medico-legal implications of dental implant failures at 6 months post-restoration. They cover topics like patient management, effective communication, collaboration between dentists, and handling upset patients. Insights on implant complications in bruxism patients and the importance of communication and research in dental procedures are also shared.

Jaz is joined by Dhruti Mysore from Plymouth University to discuss themes of student-life balance, 'Just-in-Time' learning for post-graduate development, preventing burnout, the power of a supportive network, and of course, Occlusion and Facebows. The podcast also covers topics like evolving dental techniques, continuous learning in dentistry, career development, balancing work and personal life, and seeking support from online dental communities.

Hear how Aidan went from anxious about exodontia to now feeling confident and enjoying his oral surgery list. https://youtu.be/cYl6zYMsRY8 Watch IC049 on Youtube We cover the themes of career progression, overcoming procedural fears and decision making early in our careers. At the end, Aidan shares a clever way to deliver saline when washing out sockets! Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below! Highlights of this Episode:00:00  Intro 01:47 Imposter Syndrome02:45 Aiden’s Story05:16 Daunting Experiences with Stubborn Canine06:48 How Aiden would approach things now07:33 Dental Pearl – 6 second rule09:56 What happened during COVID?18:08 After the Ipswich post, what happened?25:04 Aiden’s advice for young dentists 29:53 Lesson about photography35:13 Whole tooth extraction vs. sectioning?36:26 Sectioning School39:31 Outro Sterile Saline Pods Check out Sectioning School and the entire collection of masterclasses for just $450 Check out the First Video of Sectioning School for Free: https://youtu.be/mgVXGN_uiyg Case 1 of Sectioning School Occlusion Online Summer Sale – £100 OFF Expires 3rd June Click below for full episode transcript: Jaz's Introduction: Naturally when we qualify as dentists, we're not the most confident in a lot of procedures, especially oral surgery. It's a common theme, and obviously it depends on where you qualified from and how much surgical experience you had, but a common theme is being scared of extractions. Like, I've definitely been through it, I've talked about it a lot in terms of the power of sectioning teeth. [Jaz]But today I speak to a young dentist, Aidan, who went from being scared to now being really confident. And he’s still a young dentist, about five years out, and he’s found himself in an environment where maybe 50 percent of his diary is extractions. And this is what he wanted. This is what he designed. So listen to this interference cast today to explore Aidan’s journey. There’s a few little exodontia tips thrown in there and a really cool tip right at the end about how to actually get saline into your socket a really clever way, which I didn’t know about, and I think is going to blow your mind. So if you want to hear that tip, you have to go all the way to the end. Hello, Protruserati, I’m Jaz Gulati, and welcome back to an interference cast. This is kind of like the non clinical arm of the podcast, although this is probably one of the most clinical ones that we’ve done. This one doesn’t have premium notes. It doesn’t have CPD, but this is a really warm episode when it comes to being inspired about someone’s journey and the steps they take and learning about how someone came to a decision. Like I love something that Aidan says that he recognizes that he’s not the best at multitasking and he really enjoys the idea of having focus and oral surgery ended up becoming a focus of his and this young dentist is now pursuing an implant masters and how one thing leads to another. So this is a really cool journey to unpack. So I hope you enjoy it. And if you gain something from this episode, don’t forget to hit that like button. If you’re watching on YouTube, if you’re listening on Spotify or Apple, thanks so much for always coming back, really appreciate it. Do make sure you are subscribed so you don’t miss an episode. It also helps Protrusive to grow. So I’d really appreciate that. Now let’s join the main episode. [Aidan]I feel a bit like an imposter today. I feel like I’ve not really, I’ve just done what I’ve loved and enjoyed, and I’ve not really felt there’s anything particularly that’s special about it. [Jaz]I disagree completely. Aidan, I think everyone’s got a unique story and you’re going to be amazed about how many young dentists will just get some ideas. So, I mean, let’s just say we’ve kicked off . Aidan? Yes. Welcome to the Protrusive Dental Podcast, my friend. How are you? [Aidan]Thanks, Jaz. Yeah, not too bad. Not too bad, how are you? [Jaz]Yes, great. And we just established that on Fridays, I do a bit of TMD work in a London clinic, but on this Friday, I’m admin, I’m protrusive, I’m writing to patients, I’m sorting out bits and bobs, and you are always non clinical on a Friday, is that right? [Aidan]At the moment, yes. Yeah, I’ve just started, or I’ve just signed up for this implant masters in September, so I took this Friday off just to allow me to do a pre work before that starts, because the clinical days for that are going to be probably Saturday, clinical day, I think, and then Friday is a sort of work day. [Jaz]Okay, well, let’s unpack your story. I want to discuss your story and how you niched into it and how you, how you are where you are, early on in your journey. So, tell us, where should we begin, Aidan? [Aidan]So, I went to university in Linfield, graduated 2019, so I’m fairly new to dentistry not being not be graduated that long as a lot of people that didn’t graduate with a huge amount of experience in oral surgery. That’s quite nervous going into it. And then went for an- [Jaz]Let’s just unpack that a second. Do you have a number? Like, how many teeth you would have extracted during dental school? Just nice to think about these things. [Aidan]I don’t have the exact number. I would have thought that the total number would have been about 40. [Jaz]How about surgicals? [Aidan]Oh, I think maybe one or two. And the question is that is, how much of that was me assisting? How much of that was me being the actual main lead in that case? I couldn’t answer that question. It would be, count them on hand. I think how many surgicals I’ve watched when I left university. [Jaz]Let’s remember that as the discussion develops and how you actually niche into it. Let’s just remember that at dental school, depending on where you are in the world, but a lot of the UK dental schools, we don’t get enough exposure, especially to the surgical element of it, raising flaps, sectioning teeth. Oh my goodness. You know how much I bang on about sectioning teeth, right? And it’s something that I wish I learned earlier and earlier and earlier. It would have saved a lot of blushes in the clinic. And I’m sure we’ll talk about that as well. So, okay, fine. You qualified 2019 and I mean, obviously COVID around the corner. I’m sure you’re going to get to that. [Aidan]That was the thing. Yeah. So just about six months of dentistry. It was the first six months of FDs. So, when you’re just getting warmed up, I mean, just to start to feel comfortable. Yeah. About that. I mean, just as you start to feel comfortable, it was locked out. And they were doing absolutely nothing for about six months time and massively. I mean, I remember doing my first one, but I think it was the last day before lockdown. I took out this upper canine tooth, the last extraction of my foundation unit. And it was the most nerve wracking thing because the nurse had called in sick and it was my educational supervisor. There was no sleep for that day. And talk about performance anxiety, it was just an upper canine, which you don’t think anything of now. But back at the time, all I remember was feeling really uncomfortable. [Jaz]I think having someone, I mean, they’re very brilliant learning experiences. When you have someone over the shoulder watching you and critiquing every little step you do, it is daunting, but it is, when I’ve ever had it, the most powerful learning experience you could have. So I mean, even with that upper canine, did you get any feedback? Did you get any observation? Or was it just all very boring and smooth in the end? [Aidan]No, it wasn’t boring and smooth in the end. I was really struggling to get this tooth out. And luckily, my educational supervisor really got on really well with her, couldn’t falter at all. Would never say anything in front of a patient at all, it was all afterwards. But I just really struggled. It was quite warm and then there’s no palatal surface to grip onto. And I just remember thinking that, I’m not going to be able to do this. And it would get hot under the car and then managed to get out probably after about an hour or so. [Jaz]Wow. [Aidan]Yeah. pretty- [Jaz]By yourself or did you do ES after to jump in? [Aidan]Do you know what? I think it was by myself, but perhaps the point when I was just using WhatsApp just probably for about half an hour and the thing was, yeah, it was pretty, pretty stubborn. You know, it’s a single upper canine. [Jaz]They can be tough. I’ve been humbled by, yeah, there’s these patchy areas of ankylosis as Dr. Kwok explained to me when I was at Guy’s Hospital. When there’s little areas, the whole tooth isn’t, the whole root isn’t ankylosed, but there’s often these patchy areas of ankylosis and that can make your extraction very difficult. I’ve had a consultant at Guy’s, me, I was struggling with this canine, then the other SHO came, then the registrar came, then the consultant came and the end, he ended up having to remove this upper left canine, which is otherwise completely bog standard by drilling out the entire route. So my friend, we are not alone. I’m sure every dentist has a canine story. [Aidan]Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I think some of the buccal plate came up with it and that was that. [Jaz]And then that’s where it was enclosed. [Aidan]Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was six months. [Jaz]What would you have done differently now? I know we’re jumping the gun a bit, but obviously we’ll, we’ll talk about how much you enjoy oral surgery now, but just think about the visualize that extraction, what would you have done differently now? How would you approach it differently? Do you think it would have still taken an hour? What lessons could you pass on when it comes to an extraction that you’re struggling with? [Aidan]Would I have done anything different? I think I had the right approach. I just didn’t, at that time, probably have the muscle memory to know how much force you can apply. And also as well, it’s getting that forcep down into the sulcus as much as you can, rather than sort of putting it supragingival, which ends up just, because of the levers on it, you just end up not putting as much force down the roof as you could do it, but you just moved up a millimetre or two millimetres up the roof. And so I don’t know if I changed anything. [Jaz]Something that I’ve always reflected on, I just want to reshare because this is a few oral surgery tips that we’ve shared on the podcast before, but just now on this topic, it’s always good to give the dentist quick wins while they’re on their commute. One thing I learned, like this is like a third degree thing, so someone taught someone who taught someone taught me kind of thing, right? So we don’t know who the original source is, but the six second rule, have you heard of this? [Aidan]What’s this? No, I’ve not heard of this. [Jaz]It could be any number of seconds, but when it was passed to me, it could have been Chinese whispers. It was six seconds. So basically, if you’re using a luxator, right, and it’s been six seconds, and nothing is really happening, change tactics, switch to something else, or get the forceps out, or change to a different instrument. So, I mean, it doesn’t have to be six seconds. It’s not like the five second rule, with the food and stuff. It’s not that rigid, but it’s a mindset that, you know what, there’s only a certain time. If you’re not getting success, you need to now, I don’t know, put a purchase hole inside the tooth and use a different instrument or consider raising a flap or whatever it could be so that you’re not using the same tactic, insanity is the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result applied to oral surgery is that if you’re not getting a different result and it’s been a little bit of time, then maybe it’s worthwhile changing. The other thing which I do with tricky teeth now, which I didn’t know about some years ago is imagine that canine, it probably didn’t have this, but imagine that canine did have a lateral incisor in front and a premolar behind just to chop the contacts off, right? Just drill, drill away the contacts to allow your Luxator to get better access. It is another consideration. Is that a trick that you use as well? [Aidan]No, it’s interesting you say that going back to the six second rule. I’ve never heard it said by that before, but that’s totally true because I know probably within the first three or four wiggles of a Luxator. What my plan is for it, and I’ve never put it like that before, but I was trying to describe it to my colleague the other day. It’s either you’re going to get sort of a left and right movement, or an up and down movement, and if you get an up and down movement, yeah, kid, you’re in luck. If you get a left and right movement, then you know you’re going to have to change it slightly. So yeah, that’s really nice, nice to hear a to put like that. But, yeah, contact point, really useful for orthodontic extractions, if you feel like a really tricky orthodontic extraction, because sometimes you get that five that’s politely placed. And you don’t really want to take it too far palatally. You can just chop off the contact point. You can take it a bit more buccal. When it would be pushing against the 6 and 8 and and 6 and 4, for example. [Jaz]And even just the forceps, I know you shouldn’t be rotating these teeth, but that little bit of a PDL trauma you can give, it just allows it to move without bumping into the adjacent teeth. And it gets rid of that resistance, which is pretty good. But anyway, I just wanted an opportunity to bring in any sort of a pearl I could while we have you on the topic of oral surgery. But you were saying how we’re just digressing, That canine, you remember that, that the last thing you did before COVID happened. So then what happened over COVID? [Aidan]Just, it was all eCPD. We had, I had about a month or two months on reception where they got well and truly fed up on me. Cause I was not, I’m just not built for that sort of work. I’m very good at focusing on one thing. Do you get me to multitask? I’m absolutely used to sat in, my girlfriend will tell you that. She’s sort of talking to you while you’re doing something, it doesn’t happen, yeah. But it did about six months, online. They were quite good, they had lectures all the time. So you never, just sat there, nothing for a day. And then it got to the point when I was applying for jobs. It was sort of the August mark, isn’t it? Because your foundation year finished in September. So you left maybe a month or a month and a half before. And number one, it was really challenging to find anybody to take on a job because I felt like people were not sure what was happening with furlough, especially for people that are self-employed. And I think you had to be working for a year, self-employed, but initially I don’t get to change, but initially I had to be working for a year, self-employed to get any of the benefits from that. I luckily, I applied for DCT anyway. I had absolutely no intention of doing that. I hated oral surgery. It was the one thing that made me hot under the collar. I loved restorative university and yeah, applied for DCT. Back in, I think it was January or February that it cut off, so always keep your options open with that. You’ve got nothing to lose by applying for it. And then, luckily, I got Ipswich, which is where I grew up. [Jaz]And this is like a Maxfax, yeah? [Aidan]Yeah, Maxfax. I’d actually been treated by the consultant when I didn’t know. And, yeah, so I knew it quite well. It’s quite a small hospital. [Jaz]Let’s look at the motivations. Do you think your motivation was because you wanted to keep your options open for specialist training, or do you want it to actually, you’re generally interested in maxillofacial surgery or just surgery in general to upskill? Or was it the fear of going into GDP land? I mean, that’s a common one. And I don’t want people to be afraid to admit that, for sure. That was a huge, that was a part of me. I actually wanted to be a restorative consultant at one stage. I knew I had to do the DCT, DCT2 that kind of stuff. But I had so many colleagues who like, as long as I’m in the hospital system, I don’t have to face the real world. Do you think there was an element of that? Because obviously your story is like six months clinical, that’s it. You’ve had this pandemic, you’re feeling like you’re not very experienced. You’re feeling like you’re not very good. What’s that playing on your mind? [Aidan]I think not so much fear of going into practice. I think there’s probably a fear of all surgery that definitely contributed to that. I was really comfortable, even coming out of university, I was really comfortable with fixed restorative, especially. I had quite a lot of, well, yeah, the joke, I had quite a lot of crown preps on phantom heads. I think I’d done something bonkers, like two or three hundred crown preps at university on phantom heads. And so I was really confident with that, but yeah, I completely helpless at oral surgery, just way too nervous. And I definitely applied for the MaxFax cause I wasn’t really interested in it, wasn’t really interested restorative or, I mean, restorative, not a DCT1 position anyway, I don’t think it’s a pretty much MaxFax cause the majority of it. And so I definitely applied for that to try and be more comfortable with oral surgery. I think it was chance that I was pushed into it as well by COVID actually is the best thing I ever did, to be honest. [Jaz]Yeah, you hear though that Aiden because some people say that, Oh, I was just a pen pusher or I was assisting the whole time. I didn’t actually get to do anything. And that’s the nature of the beast. If you’re in a teaching hostel versus a district, you’re going to have a different experience. If you have a really open minded and really conscientious supervisor, even at DCT level, you can have a great experience versus someone who just sees you as a tool. Do you think your experience was because you were in the right place at the right time? [Aidan]Definitely, definitely. And going back last piece of advice I’d give actually is, and I didn’t know this, I chose it because of the Ipswich, but now I’ve realized the most important thing is the sort of hospital you’re in, because you have people in these big trauma centers, they shadow the most amazing stuff. If you’re wanting to go to Maxfax, so if you know, that’s what you want to do. Then you’re going to see some amazing things and that experience will come later. But if you’re not sure like I was I wasn’t really interested in doing mantra particularly. What I really want to do is oral surgery or what I really want to be good at was all the surgery. Then I think going into a small hospital that doesn’t deal with the really complex cases and doesn’t have as many training positions. Then actually there’s no competition or a little competition for cases. So the middle grades are quite happy to say, you know what you take a pole arm, I’ll assist because for them, it’s an easy day. [Jaz]What was the coolest thing you got to do? I mean, this could be the number of extractions, or this could be a particular type that really gave you the confidence, or you managed to get rid of your fear. Any defining moments in that one year post that you had that, that really lifted you? [Aidan]Definitely my first wisdom tooth extraction for a proper surgical distal angular aid. And I came out and I thought, you know what? I can actually do that. And I took it both of them out. I would never have thought, after sort of going, well even going into that position, I would never have thought that I’d be able to do something like that and feel comfortable doing it as well. And obviously a lot of that learning is coming. [Jaz]I had the same experience, Aidan, in Singapore when I was practicing there. And I’ve talked about this on a podcast before. When you were in Singapore, it is actually important for you to be able to remove wisdom teeth if you want to have a good salary, basically. So in terms of income, you’re massively disadvantaged if you don’t do a wisdom tooth surgery. So I was like, okay, I’m the main breadwinner here. I need to learn how to do wisdom teeth kind of thing. And I was okay with extractions, but I was really keen to learn about wisdom teeth. And when I started to do them, and now I’ve got like a, my portfolio has got all these like OPG x rays of, or wisdom teeth that I’m proud of that I managed to take out. So it’s a great feeling when you do your first few, it’s an amazing feeling. And then everyone has its own challenge. And when you start showing your colleagues who want to stay far away from wisdom teeth, you feel like, wow, you know what, this is a pretty cool thing to do. [Aidan]Yeah. Yeah. And to be able to be comfortable doing it, well and comfortable. And when you see it in the diary, you’re not nervous yet. You’re kind of excited to get stuck in really, and that was something I never thought I’d experience with oral surgery. [Jaz]An oral surgeon consultant once told me the following, actually, and what I’ll ask you about any plans you have to specialize in that kind of stuff later. But this specialist said to my colleague, Clifton, shout out to Clifton, who’s listening right now. Clifton was considering going down the oral surgery path, and this consultant at Sheffield, he was totally telling Clifton, don’t do it. He was like, look, when you first become a neurosurgeon, it’s cool. You start doing these wisdom teeth and different angulations. And then he was trying to say that eventually it loses magic and you lose your, your, your mojo for it. And there’s only so much you can do. And really maxillofacial surgery is what you should be aiming for. Cause the sky’s the limit. And that’s what we were trying to say to him. Now, obviously that was just his perspective as a restorative dentist who doesn’t do implants. I’m still learning. I’m still having fun every day. I don’t think that you need to keep doing every single thing and going to the next level. Always. You could, there’s a beauty in enjoying a skill that you’ve worked hard to attain. Do you find that now it’s been some years and you’re doing wisdom teeth. Do you think you’ve lost that magic a bit? Are you now? Cause that look, you even mentioned you’re doing a master’s implant. So maybe you’ll look, you’re always chasing that next high when it comes to learning. [Aidan]Possibly. Yeah. Possibly. It was definitely a  little bit of that. I think what I love about the extractions is that you can book 45 minutes. For everyone, you know, you 45 minutes, if it’s an easy case, you can, 10 minutes and you’ve got 20 minutes to relax and enjoy the day, and if you, if it’s a difficult case 45 minutes, the next one might not. So I think it allows you to have a more relaxed life, which then allows you to spend more time doing other things like planning other cases, for example, during the day, which you could be doing in that 20 minutes or so. So it’s definitely a means to an end for me. I wouldn’t say oral surgery is the end goal, particularly. I like the fact that I’m, I’m confident at it now. Minor oral surgery, in a sense, sorry, I’m not an oral surgeon. But yeah, I like the fact that you’re confident with taking out teeth. But I do think, yeah, chase, definitely chase the neck, I think, implants next. Would you want to specialize in oral surgery? I did want to specialize in the oral surgery originally. And then it got to the choice of doing DCT2. And I was like, Oh, I’m not 100 percent sure because I think the speciality training positions are very, very competitive. And what I didn’t want to do is go through all of that, then get rejected for a speciality position and then be back where I am now, but in two years time. I wasn’t particularly bothered by hospital work. And I think if you’re wanting to do hospital work, then for sure it’s for you. But if you’re wanting to work in practice and you’re wanting to do minor oral surgery, you don’t have to be an oral surgeon for that. You don’t have to go through the special arts training for that.You can do that with BDS. BDS. [Jaz]Let’s talk about how you actually got here to have that confidence. Was it just the Ipswich post or what happened afterwards to lead you to where you are now in the kind of environment you’re in? [Aidan]So after the Ipswich post, I was quite confident doing oral surgery. I knew that was what I wanted to do. I wanted to fill most of my posts with that because I’m not very good multitasker, so I’m not very good when I’ve got back to back checkups, and there’s loads of things to think about. That’s not really what I’m very good at. When I’ve got an hour of a full mouth clearance, I can just focus on that. That’s what I really enjoy doing. And so what I managed to get into a practice, which is actually quite heavily NHS As a very, in terms of NHS private split. It is geared towards NHS. The beauty of that is that it used to be a foundation training practice and a lot of the dentists have no interest in oral surgery. They’d rather be turning to the line, they’d rather be doing restorative stuff. And so you get a lot of referrals from that sort of place. It doesn’t necessarily have to be the most high end, bougie private practice that you’re at. Sometimes, a mixed practice is actually a really good place to be, because you get a lot of people who are able to, who may be on the NHS waiting list for a reason to contractually, but actually if you’re there privately, as a provider privately, they can, if they want to, they can come in earlier and get it done at that practice. So you do get a lot of referrals from someone like that, but you might not necessarily have a pretty private practice. [Jaz]And that’s what you end up going for, you end up going for a position whereby you limited, you kind of limited yourself to, you weren’t doing check ups, you were limited to oral surgery. [Aidan]No, I do. I do general dentistry. I do general dentistry. Initially, I do four days. So initially I’ve not done an audit on it, but initially it was probably about half of my time doing extractions, half of my time doing general dentistry. [Jaz]That’s still amazing. [Aidan]Yeah, really good fun. Yeah, it might be sort of a day and a half. I’m not really done the math on it. But there’s a lot of it is oral surgery and it’s really important I keep, I try and keep some space open in the book so I can all that’s not always possible. So you get those emergency extraction appointments, which are really useful for patients to have in the book available for them. And also, because I’d done six months of foundation dentistry, and then I’d done just pretty much oral surgery for a year with some minor sort of maxfax stuff like mandibles and stuff. I was then at the opposite problem where I was confident with the oral surgery, but I wasn’t confident, wasn’t too confident with the general dentistry. And luckily, there’s a job at a practice where one of my friends actually from foundation year had worked as a foundation dentist and they didn’t take on any more foundation dentists. So the practice principal was just looking for a general dentist to come in and take over the book for the foundation dentist. And I knew that was the right position for me because she was a trainer. She has that experience of working with people who are not that experienced. She’s a fantastic mentor. You can approach it with any case issues, always got time to discuss it with you. And I think that’s really important. And that’s not something I particularly designed, but it works out really well. It’s something I definitely value now. And I’d say to somebody who’s looking for a job, to go into a practice where you’ve got somebody you’re used to teaching, who’s happy to help. And is really enthusiastic about dentistry as well. [Jaz]Makes a huge difference. The you, the mentor that you develop in the practice makes a huge difference. And also some dentists, young dentists, they fall into this trap where they go to work for this place ’cause there’s a big shot name on the door. [Aidan]Yeah. [Jaz] That big shot name isn’t there when you are there. In fact, they’re away three to four days a week. They’re only there one two days a week. And actually they’re super busy that you don’t get that supervision or that time. And so just because you see the name in stars and lights doesn’t mean that they’re going to be there to mentor you. [Aidan]Yeah, for sure. And at that stage as well, when you’re just finished your foundation training, the mentor you need are not necessarily people that can do all of the complex implant all on four cases. It would be the mentor’s need is somebody that can tell you how to do a composite well, which is a whole different ballgame anyway. [Jaz]Or how to handle the disgruntled patient because they’ve been there before, or a patient who’s asking for a refund of their lower complete denture, and how do you handle that delicate scenario, or you have your first OAC, all these things. [Aidan]Yeah, there’s so much learning to do before you get to that stage where you need, where you know, you’re looking at the big shot names, as you call it, isn’t that? [Jaz]Are you working with this individual now, who’s in that same practice? [Aidan]So she’s the owner of the practice. She owns two practices. I work at both. I do predominantly half. I do one day at one, which is a predominantly private practice, to be honest. And then I do two, three days of the other one. [Jaz]Okay, so it’s a nice mix. So, as a percentage now, now that you’ve been a few years into it, how much of your day to day work is oral surgery? Exodontia? [Aidan]Probably, it’s difficult to say, I’d say probably one to two days a week. I haven’t got defined clinics. So it’s difficult to say because they’re sort of squeezing them on checkups. [Jaz]It’s a mishmash, whatever comes through. Yeah. [Aidan]Yeah. And that’s something I’ll work on as well. I mean, obviously different times of year, Christmas time, you’re going to get more extractions than sort of January for every time. It’s sort of more general dentistry and NHS checkups, that sort of thing. Having to find clinics I need to work on because it made such a big difference. If you’re doing a lot of exodontics you can have all your stuff set up. And your poor nose isn’t running around trying to disinfect everything. Yeah, definitely more efficient. Yeah. [Jaz]And also it’s like compartmentalized. Yeah. [Aidan]Yeah. Yeah. And if you’re trying to learn as well, sometimes it’s good to have that back to back cases because you get you the swing of things. Whereas if you’ve got one in the diary, you’ve got that wisdom tooth, you’re a little bit nervous of, you put plenty of time for, you put yourself an hour and 15 minutes, an hour and a half for it. Because you know, you want to make sure that you’re relaxed. You can’t, then you’re just thinking back to that all day. So sometimes it’s better to have back to back clinics, and then you would, by the time it gets to that difficult case, then you’re in the swing of things, you know? [Jaz]Yeah. It’s nice to be in the zone. I’m just going to just pick up on a few reflections. You’re the first guest on Protrusive to use the word bougie, so well done. That’s great. And I admire the fact that Aidan, you made a really, clever you, you said something really clever and I want to just highlight it to everyone. It shows a high level of emotional intelligence to me to be able to look at yourself and be so self aware that you realize that actually I’m not great at this. And what you said is that, and it’s the second time you said it actually in this episode where whereby you mentioned about the whole multitasking thing. And when you are having today and you’re planning like eight different things, which is what we do as GDPs, right? GDP is the toughest job ever. Like, we’re planning all this, we’re looking at the periodontium, we’re looking at the tooth relatability index, we’re looking at radiographs, we’re looking at patient management. We’re looking at the vertical dimension, all that kind of stuff. And you realize actually, maybe that’s not the, what you want to pour most of your energy into and you decided that, okay, I do have this passion for exodontia where you can focus into it, niche into it. And I think you grasp that. And really you made your own fate and you made your own destiny by doing that. So what I would want for any young dentist listening here, or even if you’re an established dentist and you’re not in a good place at the moment, and you feel like you need to niche, then what are the lessons that we can pass to those listening right now to help them find their niche or also just pursue their niche? Maybe they already know that they want to do composite bonding all day long. Maybe they already know that they want to do dentures all day long and that’s their real thing and they’re not a specialist but they’d like to just niche into it and have a kind of arrangement that you’ve done, well done to you for achieving it so young as well. I think that’s amazing. Well done. But what advice do you think we can pass on to others who want to have a taste of what you have? [Aidan]I think, and this is going to sound counter intuitive, I’m not saying focus on one thing or focus on what you’re good at because I think you should If you’re bad at something, you should put a lot of energy into, into something you’re bad at. But you don’t necessarily be, need to be amazing at everything. I think you need to have a good baseline of everything. And then if you find something that you particularly enjoy, then just put a lot of time into that. And don’t worry if it takes you an hour and a half, even if it’s like a canine tooth, if I put it in for an hour and a half, it doesn’t matter. What matters is the fact that you’ve booked out, and you’re taking on that challenge and I think trying to do it yourself rather than passing it on to somebody else to do. Yeah. [Jaz]Brilliant. I think that’s good. And making that allocated time. And I think a lot of colleagues, they are in a type of environment. It’s all about environment. You’re in an environment where you feel as though you’re constantly rushed and you’re not able to do the things the way that you want to do them. So you can’t even build your portfolio because you can’t, you’re embarrassed that you can’t, you don’t have time to rubberdam on, but you know that to the kind of level you want to do, you want to be able doing rubber dam, you’re creating your anatomy, but you can’t do it because you’re constantly rushing and running behind. And so to know that, okay, you know what, this is going to be my fun case, my passion case of the week. Instead of booking the half an hour, which I usually book, I’m going to book an hour. And you know what? Me and my nurse, we’re going to have fun. We’re going to take photos and I’m going to learn something and I’m going to really deliver every bit of my soul into this restoration or into this crown or into this extraction, whatever it is. And that can be the first step in trying to regain the passion or trying to generate new passions. And then if you do that more and more and become slick and you have that portfolio built up, then I think the top advice that I would probably give just from speaking to so many colleagues, just like you Aidan, is there’s usually a voice. Holding you back. There’s usually a fear of letting go of the income that you have at the moment or the stability that you have at the moment and to really shake things up and say, you know what, I’m now going to go from four days to two days in this practice so that I can pursue a new opportunity in that’s pretty much set up for me to do the kind of dentistry I want to do. And that takes massive action. We talked about this on podcast before. It takes a lot of guts, but most people I speak to, they always say I have no regrets. I only wish I did it sooner. [Aidan]Yeah, definitely. [Jaz]Well, how do you think you’ve. found yourself here, four or five years out of dental school in this position. What qualities do you think you had that allowed you to fall into it? Do you think, how much of it was luck? How much of it was actually your determination and grit? [Aidan]That’s a difficult one without sounding, uh- [Jaz]Go for it. Don’t worry. That wasn’t the thing. We’re amongst friends here. [Aidan]Yeah. I mean, luck is a massive part of it. Having said that you need to put yourself in a position to be lucky. If you don’t apply to that DCT position because you want to do DCT or you don’t like oral surgery. And you can’t really get lucky when you found a position that just allows you to do extractions and you end up in the wrong hospital. Yeah, I think I have been very lucky, for sure. But I also think that I do try and put myself out there a lot. [Jaz]I think you make your own luck, Aidan. I’m waiting for you to say, you make your own luck, you know. The harder I work, the luckier I get. Have you heard that one? [Aidan]Yeah, the golfer said that, wasn’t it? [Jaz]That’s it. Exactly. People shouldn’t think that, oh, yeah, you got the absolute job and everything just fell into place. You still have to make decisions. You still have to take risks. You still have to have these experiences and reflect on them. So I think, credit to you, Aidan, for doing it that way. Any final remarks? [Aidan]No, you said about left [inaudble] to young dentists, and I was thinking about that. And number one, I’d say is loupes. And number two is I’d say sectioning. So I do everything under loupes now, even extractions, and I’ve got six point, I think it’s 6. 8 loupes or 4, so six times and it’s the refractive ones. And I do every extraction under those now, but even that’s, to me, that’s not enough now. I was looking at the more, more zoomed in ones. And I think since using those, especially for oral surgery, you think, oh, maybe I don’t need loupes for oral surgery, or maybe I need the smaller versions. But no, I think the higher magnification you get even for that is important. I think that I have far fewer, so I only got moved recently, actually. I was, I moved up 12 months ago. I was thinking, oh, do I go in for the light, the less zoomed in ones, the three times, or do I go for the magnified ones and that, glad I went in for the magnified ones because I think since using those, and- [Jaz]These are what you said, 5X, right? 5X? [Aidan]I think it’s 5. 7 on the lens. And since I’ve been using those, so many less patients coming back with post op pain because I’m no longer- [Jaz]Interesting. [Aidan]When I’m looking at where I’m placing the good luxator. Good luxator is king for me. When I’m looking at where I’m placing that luxator, how many times are you putting it in a socket? Because the nurse is a little bit too afraid to go right in there with the suction. To find that little tip of root and you’re putting that luxator in rather than creating space with the luxator You’re finding it. You can find it a lot easier. [Jaz]Yes. [Aidan]With loupes on. So I’m the creative and going to the I think it’s the eight times for all surgery. [Jaz]Aidan, I think you had a one more lesson about photographing. [Aidan]Yeah, if you try to get the one thing that’s helped me last year, I’ve been doing more implant extractions. So where you want to preserve as much bone as possible which obviously sectioning is so useful for and I did one I think I did two and they got six or four months later when the implant went in the implantologist turned around and said well, why did you do that? Because I think they you know, it was a big infection as well. I’m not sure it was entirely my fault, but I think what I’ve started to do now, which is really helpful when you’re doing extractions because implants are becoming so popular. It’s really easy. If you’re not going to do a major socket preservation which you’ll think we eventually might have an involved in the future, but isn’t quite ready yet. Always try and section it, or try and take a tooth out as atraumatically as possible, and take a photograph of the socket after you do it. And ideally what I want to see when I do an extraction, even for a molar tooth, is literally three perfect little round circles with the bone, with that sort of Mercedes Benz symbol on the bone and the gums around it looking really, really healthy. I mean, yeah, that’s definitely helped me get better. [Jaz]Almost, almost untouched gums, right? [Aidan]Literally. Yeah. Yeah. Almost as if like somebody’s just taking those three rigs and just pull them straight out without any trauma. And also irrigating as well. Because I think especially when you’re trying to get good extractions, you’re using like say, so you’re creating a lot of basically dead bone around that extraction site and that’s what’s going to bring a lot of patients back with post op pain. Either they’re going to convey we’re getting white stuff coming to the socket. There’s a little bit of tooth left behind, which doesn’t look great. So always we use our eye washers. So a little canister is about this big and I just get an excavator and an eye wash after every, every extraction it’s been a little bit traumatic or if there’s a curb root and there’s a little bit of bone that could have broken off is I just irrigate the socket with a, with a saline solution. [Jaz]So this saline is like a eye wash saline. Yeah. [Aidan]Yeah. I’ll have to give you the exact link to it, Jaz. It’s the implantologist used it and I have, I saw it in the cupboards and I thought, well, that’s really useful. A lot of this. [Jaz]This is very, I mean, is it like, and you just squeeze like a little plastic device, you just squeeze into it, or how do you deliver the saline into the socket? [Aidan]So it used to be the saline from the packets, and I’d use a straight hand piece, and I’d just take the nozzle off, and I’d rub it, so the saline goes, washes everything out. But these saline solutions come in little plastic containers about this large. And they’ve got a dropper on the end. So, because they’re designed to squirt in your eye. So you don’t need to put them in any other instrument, syringe or anything. You just need to- [Jaz]So it’s like grab and go. You just grab the eyewash and you just squeeze it. And did you get enough flow into the socket? [Aidan]100%, yeah. So put it right in the socket. Get the nurse to take off the surgical suction, put on the normal suction, right next to the socket. And you just squeeze it in and just pulse it in the socket. And then you can also, if you want to do half and then debride it a bit with an excavator and then put the other half in. And you’d be surprised about the amount of just loose fragments that come to the surface. [Jaz]This is amazing. I love this. In the restorative circles, we use like glycerin or KY jellies, what people use. And then I found this Italian dentist, got me onto using ultrasound gel. And then I found this specific brand of ultrasound gel on Amazon, which I use called anagel, not anal gel. Anagel, right? And I squeeze it and it’s a lovely little delivery to squeeze it on the teeth, spread it round and cure your composite. This is like, that level of tip right here. Yeah, I love this. I’m so glad we recorded this bit. So using, like, I can just imagine it now. You’re going to have to send me a link later so I can share it with everyone. But this, this eyewash to use as a grab and go, instantly usable, dispensable, sorry, saline irrigation for your sockets. This is amazing. Thank you so much. [Aidan]Yeah, no problem. And the only thing to be careful is that you have to make sure after you do it you get a good blood clot together. Because obviously you’ve washed out all that blood. So just make sure you get a good blood clot. [Jaz]So how do you do that? What does that look like? What’s the next step after you wash it out? How do you get a good blood clot? [Aidan]So usually you don’t need to do anything. Usually you just need to put a gauze in and it will bleed by itself. Because obviously you’ve excavated as well. You’ve sort of scraped away a lot of the loose stuff, but that process then actually start the bleeding again, just to look in the socket. [Jaz]Sometimes curating the internal wall of the bony wall that can induce the bleeding that you need if in doubt. [Aidan]Yeah, exactly. Exactly, and just making sure when you do that you don’t create more fragments. So just, just nice and gentle when you do that. Yeah. [Jaz]Right, I can’t wait to share this with everyone, we got a new Anagel level pro hack here of using the eyewash, I love it, thanks so much Aidan. Magnification is like a drug, when you get it, you want more and more and more, and it never stops. One of my principals, Hap, he showed me some videos of him doing extractions under a microscope. This is like a lower molar under a microscope. [Aidan]I’ve seen these American guys and they do extractions under rubber dam. These are split down. [Jaz]Yeah. [Aidan]It’s bonkers, bonkers. [Jaz]But I totally echo that I use for all my extractions. I use loupes. And I think the next tip you’re going to give us about sectioning and if you’re going to be sectioning then, it’s like we’re doing a crown prep in a way you want to be precise in a way and therefore loupes and a good light, great light source and magnification are essential. And so I work with colleagues who are in oral surgery and they’re like, no, no, I don’t need loupes. I don’t need loupes because what we do is so macro. It’s not micro, but I’m totally in agreement with you, Aidan. I think it really enhances even for orthodontics, for those placing brackets, use loupes, it gives you more precision. [Aidan]So, so yeah. And sectioning teeth is a must at top. I’m more nervous about taking out a tooth that I have in section now than a tooth that I have, if I see a molar tooth it’s getting sections. [Jaz]As a percentage, standard upper molar, huge amalgam, root canal, fairly straight ish roots though, would you always try to give it a wiggle, give it a go first without sectioning, or are you just going in with the section? [Aidan]That’s a difficult question because it all depends on the roots. So sometimes you see the buccal, it means you’re wrapping just a buccal are fused. So in those cases, you can sometimes, if they’re very conical, then obviously sectioning is not going to work. So for molars that are able to be sectioned, so any molar now with a divergent buccal, root, or a separate buccal root should I say, I won’t try without it. And to be honest, like, I generally just work around the margin with a luxator for maybe a second or two seconds. Let’s say, you know, straight away and then I’ll section it straight away. I just think it’s not worth it. I think patients enjoy it as well. Well, they don’t enjoy it, but they don’t not enjoy it. I think it’s much more comfortable for them. It feels like a filling and then a bit of pressure. Whereas if you’ve got a difficult moment, you’re out of section, then you’re putting speed. The head’s wiggling about in the chair. It’s just not nice for a patient when you’ve got to get the nurse to hold Because they’re keeping still. So I think it’s much more comfortable for the patient. [Jaz]Gosh, yeah, that hasn’t happened in a long time. It’s been years since I’ve seen that. Because I’m doing so much sectioning. I’m totally in agreement with you, Aidan. Interjection:Hey guys, it’s Jaz. Just interjecting with this important message. If you are struggling with sectioning, like if you want to see some amazing 4K, high quality footage of me walking you through each and every facet of how to section a molar and how to become more confident and make your extractions more predictable. Then you need Sectioning School. This is one of my masterclasses that’s included in the Ultimate Education Plan on Protrusive Guidance, which is our platform. You can even try this plan for a week to make sure you love it, and I’m sure you will. And of course, you’ve got the entire community of Protrusive Guidance, our tribe, the Protruserati, to bounce ideas off and to find a place in the home of the nicest and geekiest dentist in the world. Head over to protrusive. app and choose the Ultimate Education Plan to get instant access to Sectioning School. Let’s join this episode again. [Jaz]But people, Protruserati, you used to be saying about the power of sectioning, that’s amazing, Aidan I’m so glad, you said that you started this episode saying that, yeah, there’s imposter syndrome, and I get that, I get crippling imposter syndrome time and time again, but what you have to say is that you have a journey that I’m sure is going to inspire people to think differently, make a change, reconsider their options. Maybe they’re disqualified and they’re thinking, Oh, you know what? This gives me something to think about when I’m at that crossroads, making a decision. And just because someone sucks at oral surgery and they’re afraid of it doesn’t mean that can’t flourish into a kind of career that you have now, which ironically niched into it and you enjoy it so much. And now you’re doing an implant masters soon. So more power to you, my friend. [Aidan]Thank you. That’s my own choice. [Jaz]But no, thank you so much. It’s always great to extract stories and there’s always so much in it. So you can never connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect the dots looking back, and the whole time that you had in the hospital with Ipswich, the mentor that you had in practice, the practice that you chose, even though it wasn’t the bougie, fancy clinic in a way, it still gave you the opportunities to do the kind of stuff. Which the other dentist didn’t want to do, which just fuels that passion of yours. [Aidan]Yeah, yeah, definitely. [Jaz]Amazing. Aidan, just before you go, you will have inspired a generation of young dentists who are thinking about their next steps, and sometimes it’s nice to have someone to reach out to. Even if someone wants to say, hey Aidan, thanks for taking the time to record that episode with Jaz, it really helped. Or, Aidan, I’m stuck between, do you know anything about this hospital versus that hospital or any advice that they might want to seek from you? What’s the best way to seek out? I know you have an Instagram with photography, you’re an avid photographer, so tell us about how best to reach out with you. [Aidan]Yeah, so I don’t have a professional Instagram for my work, I have a personal Instagram that I use on public now, so I think Jaz he’s going to put a link to that. Sorry, Jaz. [Jaz]Yeah, but what’s, just to say I’ll put a link to it, but what’s your handle? [Aidan]Aidan full stop. yate. So a-I-D-A-N and then full stop. And then Y-A-T-E-S. [Jaz]Amazing. So if you want give some love to Aidan or pick his brain then, or just admire his photography, check out Aidan and Aidan. Please do if you can join Protrusive Guidance is free community access and people on there are always sharing tips and advice. And it’d be great to have you on there, especially as you start your master’s journey. then do consider joining that as well. Perfect. Did you look at that? Perfect. So, tell you what guys, Protruserati, go on, if you want to send a question to Aidan, DM him on Protrusive Guidance. Send him some love there. That’s a cool way to do it. Amazing. Thanks so much, mate. I’ll see you on Protrusive Guidance. Well, there we have it, guys. Do you remember the very beginning of this episode, the beginning of the interview with Aidan? He felt like a massive imposter. And you know what? This, this affects us all. I get crippled by imposter syndrome. But you know who doesn’t get imposter syndrome? The true imposters. So I think imposter syndrome is, is part of the journey. And I just wanted to reassure Aidan. Aidan, you did a fantastic job. I’m sure we agree. To share his journey, I think we gained a lot in terms of perspective. And of course, there are a few clinical gems thrown in as well. So Aidan, thanks so much for being vulnerable, sharing your story. We absolutely loved it. This episode isn’t eligible for CPD, but we have hundreds of hours CPD on protrusive guidance and the best way to DM me, DM Aidan and liaise with all of us is on our little platform, head over to www. protrusive. app and join the community. If you have no budget and you want to join for free and learn from each other, then that’s totally cool. And if ever in the future you want to get certificates, the CPD certificates for the episodes that we do, that’s the premium plan. And if you want to access all the master classes, that’s on the ultimate educational plan. But if you want to just catch the vibe of the Protruserati and gain a lot of value for free, then just join the community access plan. I’ll see you on there. See you same time, same place next week. Bye for now.

Class II’s are only easy when they are small (but not too small), supragingival, easily accessible with straight-forward anatomy. In other words, about 1% of the Class IIs we encounter – because the vast majority I see are subgingival, wide, with awkward root concavities and tricky access. I went from using sectional matrices 97% of the time to now just using them 30% of the time – this is thanks to a circumferential matrix I started to use last year which is a game changer. I now do not need to use a wedge in most scenarios (something I used to think was a crime!) and have been using the ‘contact opening technique’. Meet Dr Sunny Sadana, who has brought the Greater Curve system to the UK and taught me a lot about efficiency with direct restorations. We also discuss fee-setting and patient communication – this part of the video is only available for those on our Protrusive Guidance network. https://youtu.be/QF3b8V_29Vw Watch PDP188 on Youtube Protrusive Dental Pearl  Pre-wedging; use this technique before beginning any restorative work on the tooth you are working on, this will allow a greater field of view to work in. It also helps suppress the papilla to get better access to the caries. This can all be achieved by numbing the area first and wedging with adequate enough pressure for there to be separation. It also reduced iatrogenic damage and is also worthwhile considering using a wedge-guard/fender wedge. Check out the DRE Composite Course Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below! Access the CPD quiz through our app on https://www.protrusive.app, either on your browser or by downloading our mobile app. For the full educational experience, our Ultimate Education Plan gives you access to all our courses, webinars, and exclusive monthly content. Join us on Protrusive Guidance, our own platform for dental professionals. No need for Facebook anymore! 😉 If you liked this episode, you will also like PDP104 Back to Back Class II Secrets (Sectional Matrix Troubleshooting) Click below for full episode transcript: Jaz's Introduction: The humble wedge gives us so many benefits when it comes to class II. Like, going back to basics, you put a wedge in for your class II, and it ensures that the matrix is right up against that cavity margin. So, wedging is important. Jaz’s Introduction:The other benefit, of course, is that it gives you some separation. And this helps to accommodate for the actual width of the matrix span, so that once you finish your restoration, you remove the wedge and hopefully the teeth will rebound and you’ll have a contact. Another benefit of wedges is actually suppressing or depressing that papilla. It allows you to manage those deeper cavities with much more ease. So as you can see, I’m a fan of wedging and I even invest in all sorts of different types of wedges and those low profile diamond wedges for those trickier and deeper scenarios. So why is this episode on doing your class two restorations without a wedge? Isn’t that a little bit crazy? Hello Protruserati, I’m Jaz Gulati and welcome back to your favorite dental podcast. So let me tell you, it was like a paradigm shift. It was a big shift in my thinking when I started to use this technique without a wedge because the wedge has so many benefits, but how many times have you introduced the wedge and seen that your matrix band has completely now moved away from your contact? You have an open contact now. And sometimes a bit like the ring, the wedge can distort your matrix. So if there is a way to do good quality class three restorations and get a contact and get a seal without needing to use a wedge, then that is worth exploring. And that’s exactly what we’re doing today. My guest, Dr. Sunny Sadana is a major fan of the greater curve matrix band. He’s a distributor in the UK. Now, many of you in the States watching, listening to this. are already very familiar with the greater curve matrix band. It’s something that I discovered probably about 18 months ago through Sunny, and now about 70 percent of the cases I do are with a greater curve matrix band. I still use sectionals, and we’ll come on to that in the meat of the podcast, because Sunny doesn’t use any sectionals at all. Whereas I think there’s still a place for sectionals. For your smaller cavities, the nice contour that you get is great. But for those big behemoth amalgam replacements, those MODs, those subgingival areas, I went through a phase of trying to make a sectional work. Like, the sectional just wasn’t going to work, but I was trying to make, I was desperate to make the sectional work. So in my aging population of patients, I see the greater curve has been absolutely brilliant. And so two shocking things you must know about the greater curve. Maybe should I give it a spoiler? Should I not? I’ll do a little bit of a spoiler. So if you follow the protocols, you don’t need to use a wedge. So I think that is well worth a listen. So hang with us to find out how that actually works. How can you use a matrix without a wedge? Don’t you lose the benefits of the seal and the separation, all that kind of stuff. And secondly, something called the contact opening technique, which I think will blow your mind. It’ll feel like dirty. It’ll feel like the first time you’re learning IPR. I don’t want to do this. This feels wrong. But actually this contact opening technique has been absolutely brilliant in the clever way to support a wedgeless technique. Dental PearlThe Protrusive Dental Pearl I have for you today is actually about wedging in a way. It’s probably a recycled one from one of the older episodes, but the value of pre wedging, like here I am saying that wedges are important, and then I told you that now I’m not even using a wedge in many scenarios because I’m using the greater curve protocols, but I’m still doing pre wedging. Pre wedging is like, for example, you get a wooden wedge and after you’ve numbed up the patient, you’re going to put the wedge through and you want to get it really through. You want to build some pressure, right? And sometimes when I’m breaking contact, I like to use like a FenderWedge or one of those plastic wedges with that metal shield, right? To make sure you don’t damage the adjacent tooth. So we don’t want the atrogenic damage either way. I’ve got some sort of wedge in there and the benefits of pre wedging are brilliant. They really help you out in making your restoration, your class II, which are tricky things. It makes it easier. For those of you who already pre wedge, you know the benefits too well, and you can’t imagine doing a restoration without pre wedging first. But if you’re not yet converted to pre wedging, give it a go. Get that wedge in before you start to remove the caries or the old amalgam, and you’ll see that it gives you access, better access to sub gingival areas. Perhaps it’s just slightly sub gingival, but because you introduced a wedge and it’s been there for a while already, by the time you take out the wedge to do your matricing, the papilla has now already been suppressed. You don’t need to remove the papilla, you don’t need a papillectomy because the wedge just suppressed your papilla. So whilst we do talk about not using a wedge, I’m still a big believer and a fan of pre wedging. Hope you enjoyed this episode and just to let you know, some aspects of this episode are exclusively on Protrusive Guidance. Why? Because this is a public forum and some of the things we discuss when it came to communication, fee setting, what is a fair price to charge patients, if the patients kind of come across stuff, it’s not really the right platform for them. It’s like strictly dentist talk. So the best way to consume this episode would be on Protrusive Guidance. It’s our free app. There are also paid plans for CPD and my masterclasses, but essentially the community is free and you can access it. The behind the scenes, the hidden talk that I’m telling you about fully on Protrusive Guidance. But I hope you enjoy this talk about the wedgeless technique and something called the concept opening technique. And I’ll catch you in the outro. Main episode: Dr. Sunny Sadana, welcome again to the Protrusive Guidance podcast. This time, actually on the podcast before we went so visual, we had this beautiful visuals. And if anyone hasn’t seen this episode I did with Sunny, just walking through like, all the mainstream matrices. There are the pros and cons lovely little table you made. That is an absolute peach of content that’s on YouTube, but I want to make something that’s widespread spread this knowledge across the world through Spotify, Apple, and other means. How you doing, buddy? [Sunny]I’m good. Jaz. Nice to see you as always. [Jaz]It’s been great to see your journey over the years. I briefly I met you when Pay organized this thing with Enlighten, like briefly across the room. And Pay said to me, you know what, you need to meet Sunny, right? And then when you spoke, I was like, wait, who’s speaking? And I saw Sunny, you, you have like the most cockney, he’s the most cockney, the most cockney person I know, right? So that was quite pleasant. It’s been great to know you, your ethos and everything. So Sunny, I know you, the community knows you. For those listening, watching, haven’t come across your work before, tell us about you. [Sunny]So I am a practicing dentist. I mainly do restorative. So, and that’s mainly on a referral basis. I’m also the head trainer at DRE Composite. So the DRE Composite course, which stands for Direct Restorative Excellence, not Dr. Dre and yeah, composite is my thing and yeah, live and breathe it. And particularly using this matrix system called a greater curve, the greater curve matrix system, which absolutely changed the game for me and for many other delegates now. That’s pretty much me in a nutshell, clinically at least. [Jaz]Let’s talk about that because you influenced me a lot with this matrix as well. So the greater curve matrix has always been on my radar. I’ve been on dental town before. I have American friends and therefore, we know about the greater curve matrix. And then essentially you. We’ve got the license. Is that how it works? You’ve got the license to distribute it and teach on it in the UK. Is that how it works? [Sunny]Yeah, pretty much that. But I mean, the way that actually all came about was after sort of a eight years of trial and error, should I say, I didn’t have the smoothest of dental journeys, became quite depressed for the whole thing. I found dentistry quite difficult, NHS practice to NHS practice. Then I went to a squat private practice and realized I wasn’t that actually private dentistry wasn’t the saving grace. It was actually, it comes down to your skills and your abilities with patients and how you communicate with them and being able to adjust with them and all the rest of it. And so I did what everybody does, right? Taking your advice. I did a bunch of courses, right? All the big names, did spend a lot of time trying to learn from some greats. Hopefully, some of their magic will rub off on me. But sadly, it just didn’t transpire that way. So after spending quite a lot of money, having a young family as well, moving into this squat private practice with very few patients, you can imagine the pressure was on. And so the fact that it wasn’t really materializing in, I don’t want to tarnish it by talking about the money, but I mean that we’ve got to live. And it just didn’t really turn up. Yeah, I was kind of at my wits end. Tried to actually leave dentistry for a while. If anyone’s on the dentist who invests Facebook group, they’ll probably see my Bitcoin analysis. And let’s just say that didn’t really work out as well as I hoped, but I’ve been given a third chance this time, so we’ll see how this cycle goes, but nonetheless. [Jaz]#WhenLambo. [overlapping conversation] [Sunny]Lambo’s a bit cheesy, but I do love the Lamborghini Urus. The truck is actually quite cool. Nonetheless, returned to sort of dentistry, really determined to make a good go of it. And so I just really doubled down and everything. And I spent a lot of time listening to American podcasts, Howard Farran’s podcast in particular. So really influenced by him and just the pragmatic way that Americans thought. And in my mind, I thought that NHS really bogs people down and the conversations are about UDAs and this. And I just felt like shackled by that mindset. So I really went into the American side of education and doing some, and that’s when I came across dental town. And then I came across, I was always into composite. And then I came across the greater curve system and at the time there was like 17, 000 posts about this matrix. And I’m looking at it thinking, hold on, there’s no wedge here. There’s no ring. Yeah, this guy was getting a great contact. It just looked ridiculously simple that how- [Jaz]It’s like voodoo. When you first come across it, like, I’m glad we’re talking about it already because I was going to ask you about the whole journey of getting Greatest Curve to the UK because previously, lots of dentists, as they’re now, obviously they buy from you, but previously they’d go straight to America and try and bypass customs, et cetera, to get this kind of stuff over here. And so it’s great that you did that. And it’s nice to know that, okay, that was your journey to getting it, but you’re right. The biggest shock factor for me, cause this episode, I want to talk about all the different types of matrices, I guess, but the biggest shock factor for me, which I was skeptical about was the whole thing about wedgeless, right? And then I’m not going to say the next point because it’s too early in the podcast to give two shockers to everyone. Let’s just start with one. Okay, you don’t need a wedge when using this matrices, which was like, we could totally discuss that and then how that works out. Why that can be advantageous in a moment, but please carry on. You were also blown away like I was eventually about the whole no wedge technique. What else did you find compelling? [Sunny]I mean, there’s lots of, I suppose, rubber dams, like a big massive topic, right? Whether people will die on that hill, right? But there are downsides to rubber dam as well. Sometimes it doesn’t work as well. It’s technique sensitive, some patients don’t tolerate it nonetheless. So, it’s almost like you use rubber dam, you get a good bonded restoration. If you don’t, you don’t. But we’ve all got restorations where we didn’t use rubber dam and it worked out quite well. And actually the pivotal thing was the moisture control, right? It’s the isolation. And the thing that was really compelling to me was the seal from this matrix alone, you can actually get standalone isolation. So, instead of just not using rubber dam, you could use a split dam and put greater curve on, and yeah, pretty much you’ve tackled all the problems right at the local level, as well as controlling for humidity and all the other benefits that we have from rubber dam, including protecting the airway and all that good stuff. So anyway, did you see lots of shots like that? I was like, I’m not sure I could post that on a UK Facebook group without getting shut down, but here we are, with lots of dentists. [Jaz]Not by the rubber dam police. [Sunny]Exactly, exactly, exactly. But my point is that use rubber dam, I’ve got nothing against it, right? But there are times where you can’t and example being, and I know we’ll get onto that as well, DME, right? The funniest part about rubber dam is at the deep margins when you really need it to work, it just doesn’t. We have to split it. And so, that’s where Greater Curve shines and we’ll talk about that, the whole sub gingival, how I’m pretty much, I’m not a specialist, I don’t have a diploma, but I’m able to tackle pretty much. Anything that comes across my table, anything that’s referred to me, I can deal with it. And so for me, that’s magical, the ability to serve patients to that level is magical. So back to, yeah, go on. [Jaz]With the seal that you mentioned, just for any of the younger colleague students, the seal we mean is that gingival seal, i.e., the very deepest, darkest bit of your cavity, right? The bit that the seal is the deal in that area. And you’re right, I was quite impressed with the divergence that you get from the greater curve, hence the name, greater curve, I guess. And then, the way it tightens at that base and the ability to get the seal where sometimes you wash a cavity out with three in one, there’s the spray, right? And then you dry it, but then there’s still liquid residue. There’s still water residue, fluid, at the bit, at the base, a lot of time, not every time, right. But a lot of times I’m blowing air and it’s like super dry. I’d never been, ever have been able to achieve that with any circumferential matrix, but I guess let’s just start with that then. 2024 you are unique. And I know you are unique, but you’re spreading this methodology and this way of thinking whereby you are looking for a pragmatic solution. And obviously, let’s admit it, you’re going to be biased as your sister is your baby in the UK now, right? You’ll be biased because this is your matrix. And recently, I know I did some episodes about BioClear matrices and stuff. So I’m not here to say that any one matrix is the best. Cause in my hands, I’m using your matrix, the greater curve, not your, but you know what I mean, the greater curve one. 70%. That’s a lot. I mean, you asked me two years ago, I didn’t own a greater curve matrix man. So obviously it was zero. So from zero to 70 percent of all my restorations, okay, are now greater curve. Number one reason being is my patient base is 60 plus, and I’m most of the time replacing behemoth amalgams which is subgingival. And they’re pretty much, okay. you know what? We can probably go indirect here and go ceramic. Which I do a lot of as well, or we can go a large restoration. And therefore, my matrix band of choice is the greater curve. I still use sectionals because I just find that and this is a real important point is because I went through a phase, Sunny, of using sectionals, like for everything, like no matter what the cavity ended up looking like in my mind, I was like, if I’m not using a sectional, I am a deficient dentist. I am cutting too many corners. I am not being anatomical, whatever that means, right? So therefore I fell into this trap of Emax trap as well. But at one stage, I know Zak went through as well. Everything was an emax onlay at one stage, right? Like I went through this phase. So everything was an Emax onlay once upon a time. And I know people listening and watching are going to resonate with this. Everything was a sectional matrix once upon a time. And then you realize, you know what? You got to use the best tools at your disposal and you got to adapt it for what you have in front of you and sectionals when it got too big. When it got to medium to large, yes, it can be done, but it’s a lot of effort for the reward, which can be unpredictable. That’s what I found. What was your experience with sectionals, as you developed into your enjoyment and fulfillment of composites? [Sunny]Well, I mean, my experience with sectionals was never that good, in fact, learning from some really great dentists who are doing this magical stuff, and then I’m getting back to the surgery after doing 10 hands on days, and then I still can’t get a sectional to work, right? And then I thought, is this just me? Or are there other people that feel this way? And that’s obviously what spurred me to go and have a look on these American forums. And also just for the American approach in terms of just the business of dentistry, right? So again, really influenced by Howard Fran’s book, Uncomplicate Business, Uncomplicate Dentistry, I believe it’s called. But it’s a business book about dentistry. And it’s one of those books I listen to every year just to really center myself when it comes to all things business and dentistry. Nonetheless, on that forum, I found the system, I ordered it 2018, I started using it for two years. I just gave up on sectionals because it made that much of a difference to me. Immediately, I just didn’t need them anymore. However, I didn’t know a single soul that was using greater curves. So here I was trialing and erroring away for two years by myself. And yeah, of course- [Jaz]You had the forum though, right? You were on the forum, I guess, picking up tips and sharing. [Sunny]And I was a lurker 90% of the people are, right? Social media is quite a new thing to me, right? It wouldn’t look that way when people look at my social media, but it’s quite a new thing to me. And so prior to that, just a lurker really, I was more into playing football really than being too much online. And so that was a bit of a shift. So I didn’t really ask any questions there either. And then the stars really aligned in 2021. I actually heard Dr. Brown, the inventor of the greater curve system, right. And this is a dentist in his seventies, four years of experience talking absolute truth with Howard Farran. And I was just immediately drawn to this guy. I thought, wow, this guy’s pragmatic, super pragmatic. In fact, he says something super outlandish. He says on the podcast, I do most of my dentistry without a rubber dam and nobody can say that and it’s almost like contentious. He’s like, Oh my God, what about a person? But this guy’s got amazing recalls, 10 years plus of ridiculous things, built up an apple core style incisor or lateral. I can’t remember the one that, and then he used that with rebond the tooth replace the direct reboond bridge to replace the central. And the last he saw it was five years strong. And so it just mind boggled me what was possible. And I knew things were possible, that I didn’t think was beforehand. For example, training with Sabir Banerjee, you’d see his recalls 20 years old when the composite was rubbish and there was no air abrasion. And so I just knew there was a world of possibility and I just never had it. And then I got to taste it with this system. And then anyway, once I heard Denny on that podcast, I emailed him and he said to me, let’s jump on a zoom. So we did. We hit it off, we had some real stuff in common. He was interesting thing about him is he was a Vietnam War veteran before he became a dentist. So I actually served in a war. It’s pretty gnarly stuff, right? But very, very down to earth, humble guy. And nowhere near that level of service, but I was an army reserve for five years. So we just had this kind of common ground and understanding. And for both of us, it’s pretty much like what’s the most effective way to do anything with the least amount of steps, right? You want to be the most direct, most effective. You don’t want to go around the long, windy route for no reason, unless it had a strategic benefit. So we just kind of really aligned in that way. So then he said to me, stop giving me your cases. So I did. And then with that, that was pretty much the beginning of this sort of mentorship from 4, 000 miles away. And so we would do these calls very routinely. I bring my cases. He basically retired after COVID as well. So yeah, it was just really a kind of like a natural fit for us to kind of, we became friends from this point. And so I continued in that capacity for probably about nine months and my dentistry got so strong. [Jaz]Do you mind me asking, Sunny, was it a paid arrangement or was this this guy from across the Atlantic just being super nice to you and just like teaching you the ropes and giving you his time? [Sunny]Exactly that. So, what a top. [Jaz]That’s rare. [Sunny]Yeah, what a top guy, right? What a top guy. So, I’d like to think it was something to do with my charming self too, but no, I mean, he’s a great guy, right? So, I’d love to be thankful for, in that regard, giving me the time. And so, people sometimes look at it and go, it’s just a matrix, why do I need to look, there’s so much nuance to this thing. You name any restorative problem, you think of something that is tedious, difficult. Once you’ve been trained, this thing just solves it, right? Black triangle, diastema, extreme subgingival class fives, direct composite onlays, with the way that we’re doing it, it’s just so slick that the time it takes is just minimal, right? And no patient wants to be in your chair longer than necessary anyway. So patients love it. You’re giving them a great result. And we’ll get into how the market values these kinds of treatments because sometimes, composites are kind of seen like a bit of a tedious thing that we have to do, but actually very rewarding for patient and dentists for many reasons. Anyway, nonetheless, from that mentorship, my dentistry just really improved so much so that nine months after that, quite bold move. I left Associate Dentistry to set up a private referral service. And so, the beginning arrangement was pretty much I was visiting people’s surgeries and doing cases that they were going to extract these teeth pretty much. And so they’d send them to me, I’d do it, and then that was how that started. [Jaz]How do you even begin to create a service like that? I mean, how do you even, I imagine you just have to contact all your colleagues that you know, be like, listen, this is the kind of dentistry that I think I’ve got an interest in that I really enjoy. And these are the problems that you guys probably don’t want to solve. And I’m here to solve them and take them off your hand. Was it just that, and just letting them know that you were out there and ready? [Sunny]You know, life is like serendipitous sometimes, isn’t it? It’s just so funny how these things unfold. The initial arrangement, funnily enough, wasn’t a restorative service. It was me and a friend and we set up an endo referral service. As a non endodontist, which is crazy now when I think about it. ‘Cause I did a few courses. [Jaz]What? [Sunny]Yeah, I know. Don’t even start on that. In fact, I remember the first clinic was so, so crazy now. Really nice married couple that owned the surgery once, a dentist one up really lovely people. I got all the time in the world for them and that’s how it unfolded. It was so crazy that my friend’s mom was seeing the lady dentist as a patient and then she had said, oh, we’d start this practice. We’re looking for dentists. She said, my son’s a dentist. And so that’s how we got in touch. And so I went for this interview at the time, right? Wanting to move on from where I was and it just turned out that it wasn’t going to work out for me to be an associate in that respect. Like I wasn’t doing NHS at the time and all the rest of it. And then it just struck me that actually they were like referring some stuff out of their surgery. And I just said to him, look, why don’t you send those endos to me? I’ll do them in house. My friend will come and assist. And then, you keep the patient, you do the crown, we’ll split the income. And I remember the first session we did, I think we started like one o’clock in the afternoon and we finished like 11.30 at night. And I found an MB2 at that point. And it was just awful. And the practice owner, my non dentist friend comes into the room and he looks at me and he goes, oh, we had a cracking day, didn’t we lads? And I was like, yeah, cracking, absolutely cracking, you know? And now he’s just like, what have I done? So that was the birth of the service. And then because actually the thing I was best at was these really gnarly teeth that needed endo. I can fix them up really quickly though. I could do a pre endo build up so quickly and they’re just a really slick little clinical tidbit of how that works. You’ve got these really broken tooth guys, got irreversible pulpitis or something, and you need to be able to get a clamp on. And actually sometimes you can’t get a clamp on a really broken tooth like that. So you can put greater curve on there. You can add just a little bit of EDTA, right? So no hyperchlorite and you can do your coronal flare. Yeah, you just do your coronal flare, make that space, put your GP in there, and then etch and bond around it and build up your wall. And so you’re maintaining that straight line axis, nothing’s going down the canal, and actually it’s pretty easy to do the endo from there and then fill the centre, right? And a lot of these guys are going to go for indirect. But I know I’ve done that DME or the wall or the actual core, whatever you want to call it, I know I’ve done that really, really well. [Jaz]Perimetrial buildup is something that Pasquale Venuti says, you know what, I was actually thinking of Pasquale earlier when he was talking about it because one of the issues that Pasquale is very good at pointing out is when we are doing, for example, class fives and you see some dentists. They’ve got rubber dam on, they’re doing these class fives, right? And you can imagine now you’ve got like the most distal molar clamp. You’ve got the most mesial clamp because why not and then for the class fives you’ve got like two brinkers B4 and so in 2017 I was in Sydney or Melbourne right and I was there Pasquale was lecturing with Lincoln and he described it as the sulcus. So he was, it’s a sulcus, right? And he was like, I love this. He’s right. This is the sulcus, right? Because he just said, sod all this. Just whack some PTFE in the circus. You can be fine. And that for me was like, paradigm shift. Like, yeah, he’s right. Why are we juggling this? And everything’s like falling out and collapsing. And you can’t do it on stoke, in stoke and Tuesday night. You can’t do it in your practice. Only the elite can do it. So that was the first taste of that. And everything you’re saying is very much echoing that thing about making things easier, breaking things down. Why not just, cause it’s not sexy doesn’t mean you can’t just use one clamp, which is actually superior in many ways to get that seal in the trickiest of cases. [Sunny]I mean, interestingly too. I mean, we were talking about that, but I mean, for me. Hands down. I am biased. Everybody knows it. But I mean, when it comes to class fives, you can give me some really, really difficult ones. And I’m going to get that done with a greater curve. That it is so, so straightforward. And then any worries that you have. [Jaz]Dude, you do everything with a greater curve. I just want to emphasize that. [Sunny]That’s right. That’s right. [Jaz]Sunny will do a class one with a greater curve. No, I’m just kidding. [Sunny]Well, you laugh at that. But like if I’ve got an upper eight and it’s like really difficult to keep it dry, I put the greater curve on and I do it. So, yeah. [Jaz]That’s true. Okay, fine. But that’s actually true. So there we are. You name a class, you name any restorative scenario and you’ve got your trusty greater curve, which, it’s a learning curve, and that’s why you run course on and stuff. It’s a learning curve, but having used it now for 15 months now to 18 months, when you introduced me to it, I have to say, like I said, 70 percent is big deal. I think if I had a younger population, I’d probably use it less. However, having said that, if I had a younger population of patients, then perhaps post orthodontic, black triangles might be more of an issue. And I’ve seen you and your colleagues do so many great black triangle closure cases as well, especially using that brass one, for example, or the U band. You’ve got different matrix designs, but fundamentally, let’s talk about the two most shocking things about this system. So just to recap, guys, matrices. Nowadays, I’m using greater curve, 70 percent time, circumferential matrix, which I never thought I’d be saying, like, if you asked me three years ago, I would never have said that I’d be using a circumferential, but it is what it is. I’m mad enough to say that if something good comes along, I’m just going to accept it. I’m going to be like, you know what? Fine. What I was doing before, and this is better. I accept it. Let’s move on. And so that’s the situation. Now I’m using a Palodent. I’m using Tor VM in those smaller cases. I’m still using rings in those smaller cases, but that’s about 30 percent of my work. Anteriorly, class threes, massive bugbear for me. Honestly, I hate class threes, especially through and through class threes, right? Through and through class threes. I find very fiddly. I’ve done the whole thing about the Mylar strip and the wedge, and it gets very fiddly. And then when you told me to use the greater curve for the class three, I was very, again, skeptical. But it went really well, the seal. And so I’ve enjoyed a few cases doing it that way as well. But like I said, you use it for everything. And so you can find your perfect ground. And if you like using sectionals, still use sectionals. But when you have that case that is super subjunctival and is tricky, don’t try and put a square into a round peg, right? Don’t do that. Just use a system that’s actually built for that purpose. Because part of the beauty is wedge less. So tell us, why is a wedge less scenario advantageous in those deep sub gingival cases. [Sunny]Maybe not just for sub gingival, just in general, well, actually let’s address that point head on. First of all, when it’s super sub gingival, to get that seal, you need to put a wedge really sub gingivally, and often that is tricky, right? Then you can sometimes actually dentists who’ve got all these different types of wedges and they’re still struggling. And then the trade will have five wedges, four sectionals that they’ve gone through, trying, playing to see, you know, to see which one fits [Jaz]Customizing the wedge yourself with the bur, the wooden one. And then the diamond wedges are great. Diamond wedges are great, but sometimes even then you’re not going to be able to get that low profile. [Sunny]Totally. And there’s variability in the patient, right? Some people have these thick, soft tissue, that’s really hard to put anything down there. So nonetheless, we’ve just got all these variables to deal with. Whereas, not having to worry about which just takes out variable way. So, I do offer like a free CPD sessions on our website, right? People can just book it, one on one for their practice, whoever, just so they can actually see these scenarios. And the first few subgingival scenarios I’ll show are just plug and play solution. It pretty much is you see the greater curve, you tie it in place and it seals there, and then there are more extreme examples where I’m talking like, almost Crestal, really, really sub gingival. We’re able to do that, but of course there’s a bit of a technique. We call it a cervical relief technique. You’ve posted it in Protrusive Guidance where you adjust the bottom of the band. But those are, I don’t commonly do that. But there’s a nice clear sort of progressive framework that if this, then that, so then when it comes to sub gingivals, there are like only four things that we do. And we just go in that order until you get to get the seal. And if you can’t get a silver greater curve, it’s quite unlikely, that it’s going to involve crown lengthening at that stage. It’s going to need something beyond direct resto back to your question as well with wedges. So yeah, number one with subgingivals, quite difficult to even just get a wedge to do its job. That’s number one. Number two is getting a contact when it’s really, well just in general, getting a contact can be difficult sometimes. And then when you’ve got wide spaces, the more subgingival it goes, the wider this space becomes as well, just by nature of the lesion. And so again, having to try to wedge there to get some separation to compensate for the thickness of the matrix in hopes that it comes back, touches, and gives you a contact, can sometimes be very hit and miss. That can be hit and miss for people when they’re doing quadrants, right? I love a good quadrant. I think it’s one of the most underrated things in dentistry, right? You don’t need to market for it. You know, there’s no lab bill, it’s not Invisalign, there’s no implant complications, your indemnity doesn’t go up, but patients all need composite, right? And so when you can do a quadrant really well, it’s pretty staggering. Like, just delegates, forget me, people see my cases, they see my efficiency. That’s cool. But then a delegate can come and do six weeks with us, and then they can turn around and say, I’m doing these quadrants in one and a half hours and charging average costs. [Jaz]Well, I want to talk about this specifically, because I told you on the phone that, a lot of patients have started to watch you on this YouTube channel. If you’re a patient listening to me on Spotify, God help you. If you’re a patient on YouTube right now, get out of here. It’s not for you, it’s for dentists, okay? Like, just leave. Okay. And so some of this parts of this conversation, which are super cool, super important communication kind of stuff, I’m going to reserve for Protrusive Guidance. So if you guys are not on Protrusive Guidance yet, protrusive app, come on there. There’s a space there for, to discuss greater curve cases and that kind of stuff as well, which is pretty cool. But I want you to come to there to come to this extra bit that Sunny’s going to talk about where it comes to efficiency and workflow and make sure you’re cost effective for your clinic as well. But we’ll come to that. But yeah, the whole wedge thing, like you said, you put the wedge in and then the contact opens up. You’ve lost your contact. [Sunny]Yeah, exactly. And two situations really come to mind as well is that sometimes where you got like first of all, I’ve just got two really distinct things that I know we address quite well as well in my mind. One is when you have like a complex cavity, where it’s just not perfectly spherical anymore, and you put on let’s say a pro matrix, this thing collapses in and you get gap in one side, it just kind of contorts, right? And so that’s one very common issue. Then the other one is in a similar way, where you have a wide space, you put this matrix on, you’ve already got space, and now you’ve got a wedge, and it makes the space worse. And so now you’re playing gymnastics, trying to do stuff with this matrix, trying to hold it over and all the rest of it. And it’s just super difficult, and that is, again, I show that example from our episode, and then I show the next example, and then I show the exact same scenario with the greater curve on and you’ve got this fantastic seal, even though it is an irregular shaped tooth. And it lies up right where the contacts need to go. So just from the design alone, even if you didn’t train with me, that is a big difference to a lot of people’s work immediately, just from a design perspective. But of course there are. [Jaz]Well, objection number one would be then if you’re not using a wedge, then how is it able to achieve the seal? Just to recap that, how is it able to achieve a seal? Because lots of matrix systems, they rely on the wedge to get the seal. [Sunny]Sure. So, I mean, the best analogy, I think is like a tourniquet. You know how a tourniquet works? Maybe that’s too mainstream. Maybe, like, it’s a bit gruesome, but like an a noose. You know how an a noose works? Right? You know. Oh my god. Yeah, I know, it’s gruesome. But, I mean, it probably makes it very clear how it works. So, imagine, the tooth is the poor soul. And then the noose is the matrix, right? And it just literally tightens around the next super tongue. [Jaz]I got one for you that’s a little bit more PG, yeah? How about we call it the floss ligature? How floss ligature works? It’s dental as well, right? And that’s a great example, right? You know how it goes more apical when you pull it? [Sunny]Sure, sure, exactly that. It’s exactly like a floss tie, right? It’s just made out of steel or brass. So that’s how it works in regards to the seal, yeah? So we’re not relying on a wedge for that purpose. And so, in getting the contact without a wedge, then, we do a technique called contact opening, right? Which basically- [Jaz]Which is the first time you’re blown away is, What? No wedge? And then the second time, you almost collapse. Contact opening, what did he say? So you got to explain this. Everyone just like, if you’re chopping onions, stop. This is important. This is going to shock you. All right. Go for it. [Sunny]I mean, I’m just going to like me. They love the steps. I’ll just paint the picture. You’ve got this matrix in place. You’ve got the seal. Lovely. It’s lying up against the adjacent marginal ridges. You take your burnisher just under a rounded marginal ridge in the upper third of the crown, you’re going to burnish really firmly for 10, 20 seconds, like a lot of people do. And then the difference is you would take a fine rugby bur. Yeah. Fast hand piece, no water. And with the belly of the bur, the max convexity. You’re going to gently rub left and right on that spot where you just burnished. You rub it left and right, you take it off, you have a look again. You rub left and right, you take it off. [Jaz]Water or no water? [Sunny]No water because we need to see, right? And you continue to do that check in until you remove that final layer of matrix. And there you have it. You have this contact opening. A literal space in the matrix where you do not need the matrix if you want to get a contact. And when you do the technique correctly, the actual edges, the peripheries actually got a quite a nice bevel just from that side to side motion. As a result, if you see any of my videos, when we’re introducing floss in and out, it’s super smooth. Doesn’t fray, but it’s pretty cool. Nonetheless, from that point, we want to make sure that that contact open is super smooth. So when we run a probe from the greater curve metal, the brass or the steel, and then it goes onto the tooth and then goes onto the metal again, we want to make sure that that’s seamless. We want a really nice seamless transition. And for obvious reasons, we want to remove this by band. And then when it comes to removal, let’s just keep it easy now, we’ve just done an MO, and people are probably thinking this because I was, like, oh, hold on, aren’t these teeth glued together? Actually, it’s a super weak bond between this very small space, right, it’s roughly a millimetre, or two millimetres, if it’s a largitude in diameter, roughly. Take a flat plastic, twist, you separate that weakly bonded composite, and because it’s so weakly bonded, it doesn’t splint or fray, some of those objections may come to mind, they did for me. But yeah, I’ve been doing this since 2018. It doesn’t splint or fray. In fact, it’s a super smooth transition from that point we take four four steps. [Jaz]I mean if you do this wrong though, like no I’m just going to point out if someone does it wrong whereby they haven’t done the burnishing. The burnishing steps really important with the instrument because If you don’t do that and see where you need to actually do the removal of the metal and you don’t appreciate it then you might be actually too apical And you might be actually poking a hole in the gingival embrasure space and not against the contact. And if you do that, then the composite, it makes a mess. So you got to be a bit judicious, but you’re right. Like the whole thing, like firstly, you got to convince yourself that what you’re doing is correct. It’s like when you do IPR the first time, it feels dirty. It feels wrong. Like how dare you do IPR right now, when you come to terms with, okay, I’m going to remove the metal and see the contact or the restoration next door. And bond directly to that, except you’re not actually adding etch or bond there obviously, but like the composite is touching right against it, right? So that’s like a paradigm shift. But when you’re doing that, it is a great way to get a contact and I can vouch for the fact that, yeah, it works, but you just got to just train your mind. And also the second person you need to convince other than yourself is your nurse. Literally Zoe thought I lost my marbles the first time she saw me do it. It’s like, wait, what’s he doing? So you’ve got to actually just give your nurse a pep talk. [Sunny]Sure, sure. 100%. And look, there’s two kinds of dentists I really encounter, right? There’s going to be the dentist who says, give me the kit, I’m just going to figure it out, right? And that’s cool. They can do it. In fact, for them, I’d say, look, don’t start off with the contacts opening immediately. Instead, just get used to how the system works, how it all seats and do all that. And instead, just burnish and wedge as usual. Yeah, just at the beginning. I just use it as a regular matrix. No drama. Then there are other people who say, look, this makes a bunch of sense to me. There’s many benefits I see to this. I really want to position myself as to be the guy who’s really good at composites. And we could talk about why I think composites, my largest thesis at play here is actually I think composites the future, really bigger picture for patients and dentists. And then those guys are the type of people who say, well, show me what you got, let me spend six weeks and let me just take the whole framework. Let me go from beginning to end. Theoretical to technique. I mean, for example, the way we break this down, we call it the BOSS method. So B is regarding band on, and then O is for opening, whether you’re doing a contact opening or an access window, S is for seal. And then the next S is for snowplow. And so people are probably familiar with some of those things, but we spend time on each of those things so that you nail it and you don’t waste time in practice making mistakes, right? You make mistakes with us on your hands on day, and then you just get into the surgery and get going. Because nothing worse than faffing around with your patient looking at you, because they do detect it when something’s not going smoothly. [Jaz]Well, I just want to make the contact opening technique a bit more tangible, because in case people are thinking, wait, is that what they said? Because they might have misunderstood. So, you’ve got the matrix band on, you’ve got no wedge, you’ve got a lovely tight seal. Literally, it’s so, so nice and tight, and it’s good, there’s no moisture, okay? The metal band is up against the adjacent tooth, right? So, let’s say if you’re doing an MO on a first molar, you’re up against a premolar. You’re now going to get the rugby ball. Now, I do it a different way. I’ll talk about it in a moment. Mahmoud taught me this way. So, you said it was rugby ball. You remove, use like a yellow or red, a microfine one, right? And just gently sway around until you just perforate through the metal. And now you can see the restoration or the tooth adjacent. Obviously, before you’ve done this, you’ve burnished with a metal instrument like a ball burnisher to make sure you know where you’re going. Now, Mahmoud taught me, what’s this technique called? We use the rose head and use it in reverse. [Sunny]I actually got that name from him. [Jaz]I love this. [Sunny]I actually got that name from him. So credit. [Jaz]It’s amazing. So shout out to Mahmoud. I love it. So put the rose head, I think I put it about 15, 20, 000 quite fast, but in reverse. So the cutting is very minimal. And I just see that thinning of the metal. This is now my preferred way right now of doing the contact opening. So you do that, and then when I’ve posted this on social media before, people message me saying, Jaz, won’t your composite stick to the next door? And what about the etching? Do you do the etching and bonding before you do this? Well, actually, no. Correct me if I’m doing it wrong as part of the protocols, but I do the washing. I do my etching and bonding after the contact opening. I’m just careful not to get the edge of the bond. For the window, because the window is where the contact point is. And the apical cavity is way down there. So there’s enough of a margin for you not to be cat candid enough to get it in that window. [Sunny]Totally, totally. But my point is there’s tons of options, right? You can go the full hog and do the contact opening. You can just use it as a normal matrix and wedge as usual. Or you can go halfway house and do super burnishing. Which you can just thin the matrix out quite a lot without even doing the contact opening. I still recommend a wedge with that though, just so you get the same predictability. But the benefit of the contact opening is the predictability is just there. I can’t remember either in a context. [Jaz]Wait, you’re saying use a wedge with the contact opening? [Sunny]No, no, sorry, I’m saying if you’re going to do the rose head technique, yeah, what you just mentioned. The super burnish, yeah, inverted commas. If you’re going to do that, then I recommend still using the wedge just to apply some separating pressure. If you’re not going to make a contact opening with the rose head. So some will just thin it. [Jaz]Oh, no, no. So yeah, fine. So I understand. So if you’re not going to be brave enough to contact the adjacent tooth in your early stages, then to get a bit more separation from the wedge, not necessarily the seal, because you already have the seal, but just get more separation. Can you use a ring? Do people ever use a ring with a greater curve? [Sunny]I’ve not really seen it. I don’t. Denny never taught me to do that. So I’ve never really seen it. And then I think actually might interfere with the flare of the- [Jaz]Just imagine it. Yeah, it might mess up the flare. And then it might get like a convex concave kind of thing going on around the edges. So, yeah, I had never done it either. It was just a wonder. [Sunny]What we’re trying to teach as well is we’re trying to teach an approach for any dentist, anywhere with whatever they have, so the common tools that dentists will have, we’ve give everybody what they need, but these are basic tools that everybody has, and they’ll be able to do this, good dentistry. The example of where that would probably get in the way is like, say you’re doing like an MOD and a class five and you’re using a U band, right? This guy’s my favorite, by the way. And you can actually do this class five and the MOD all in one go, but then putting a ring in a way. Another variable, and then we’re going to have to teach when to use a ring, when not to use a ring, just by not using a ring, it’s not going to interfere with that setup. Does that make sense? So actually just, I just wouldn’t recommend just even needing rings. It defeats the point, the whole point of this is simplicity, you know? [Jaz]You don’t own a ring, yeah, you don’t have a ring, you don’t have a ring in your server. [Sunny]There’s no ring on it, no, there’s no ring. In fact, what I’m going to do is actually, because I travel to different surgeries, I’m going to take a video of what’s in my trolley, right? People always curious to know what I work with, but it’s pretty simple. [Jaz]Just like a billion greater curve matrices. [Sunny]Yeah. Hundreds, hundreds. But then just so that we’ve completely made it tangible. Then you’ve twisted this bonded contact, inverted commas again, with this flat plastic is separated nice and cleanly. No problem. You take forceps, close to the tooth as possible, yeah? Parallel to the long axis of the tooth. You grab the band nice and close, and you rotate. You’re not going to pull it out, you’re going to rotate. And by rotating, you’ll feel how tight that contact is. And it will just move, dislodge, and then it just comes out, right? And so, when you’ve got a great contact because that’s what happens. But here’s another top tip for people who aren’t using greater curve. Because I’ve been in this horrible situation. When I was using Palodent Sectionals, I remember this patient like it was yesterday, and I was doing a lower six and seven, and very particular patient, knew about dentistry, which is always a red flag sometimes. When the patient knows more about dentistry than I did, but came in, said about the problem, all the rest of it, I started doing it, and then when I finished this restoration, I was trying to remove this Palodent Foil, and the three little holes, the top tab, the little hole, and then on the sides, and I used the Palodent for something, and it ripped the hole, because this contact was so tight, I had really, maybe I just over condensed it, or whatever else, or the matrix was really thin, and- [Jaz]All that army strength. [Sunny]Yeah, maybe, maybe, let me not flex my biceps right now, Jaz, I’ve been training, I promise. But nonetheless, I pulled it, ripped it, ripped the other side, ripped the top. I was like, what am I going to do here? And I literally had to drill the composite out to get the rest of that matrix out. So yeah, awful. So here’s the top tip for any, especially the young guys as well. Yeah. Young guys and gals, you may have this problem. Don’t stress, always take a breather. They say these kind of adages in the army as well. That, calm is contagious. I stay calm, right? If you’re not calm, the whole team gets infected. Your assistant does, the patient’s looking at you going, why is there sweat dripping off his head? So always, always good to take a breather, stay calm. Try and take your flat plastic and really get in between the sectional foil and the composite as much as you can. Yes, he’s just trying to separate whatever bond there is and then same deal, take a flat plastic twist the tooth in between just try and relieve whatever tight pressure that is in there and then get that forcep nice and close. And again, rotate it out rather than trying to pull it and shred it into pieces. And that works really quite well as well. [Jaz]So just to make it tangible, this is a bit like the sausage technique, not to do with implants, soft tissues or anything. The sausage technique was introduced to me by Lincoln Harris. It’s when you’re doing lower incisors and you’re restoring wear on lower incisors. So let’s say you want to do like 1. 5 millimeters of composite on the lower incisal edge, and you want to do all four lower incisors at once. Maybe they already have a contact, right? But you’re going to put this big sausage of composite from lower incisor. So all four lower incisors, right? Then you just shape it and you get like your thin instrument, your IPCL or whatever. And you get like the embrasures going. And then you’re going to get the shape right. And then you’re going to cure it. So it’s all connected together. But because you thinned it out with the embrasure, you can go into your flat plastic. And just twist, twist, twist, and cleave, and break the composite apart. So I do like a good sausage technique. Yeah. Let’s clarify. Have you heard of have you heard of Bud Mopper? [Sunny]No, I haven’t. [Jaz]Okay, this guy, I hope I’m saying his name right. We met him, me and Mahmoud met him in Chicago recently. He’s like, a guru of Composite in the States. Cosmedent. He teaches Composite. Cosmedent, right? And so, he had this, he called this technique The Mopper Popper. [Sunny]Oh, I have heard of this. Yeah, yeah. [Jaz]The Mopper Popper. So, I shook this guy’s hand. Walk away. And Mahmoud goes, Jaz, you know who that was, right? And I’m like, who are you? It was Bud Mopper. He goes, he’s the inventor of the Mopper Popper. So the Mopper Popper is basically, just like you said, you get your flat plastic in and you just twist and it just breaks those bonds. The Mopper Popper is what you should be using, kind of, when you’re using the greater curve as well before you remove the matrix. Just so, to links back in again. The next few things I want to talk about in the interest of time is before we do the whole communication bit, which is going to be off YouTube. One thing that I think is really important to get out there is the amalgam ban. 2025, you probably know more about this than I do. And I think if you’re looking for a solution, that’s going to be applicable to dentists working in a system where, we’re all time constrained, but sometimes we live in a service of getting our patients as healthy as possible, as quick as possible. Then that’s where the matrix does shine in a way. And I think with the amalgam ban, I think what your matrix offers is a solution that’s like an alternative to amalgam that’s not GIC, like you can still use composite, but you just now made it in a way that’s very efficient, but you’re going to do a better job of explaining than I just did. [Sunny]Yeah, I mean, so if somebody’s just been doing the amalgams for a whole bunch of time, and then they’re faced with this uncertainty of maybe I can’t use this material I’m really good at, that can cause a lot of anxiety, right? And then what’s the closest thing to that is GIC, just pack it in a similar way, right? And for any of your patients listening to this, I say there’s a massive difference between a filling, a metal filling and a composite restoration, you know what I mean? Jaz, we’ve talked about this a lot of times. But a filling is a hole and you’re filling a pothole with the metal, you can really do that. And I’m not saying I’m very skillful dentist that can replaced many, many cusps. They can certainly do that, but the skill and technique required to place composite is actually, I think is quite different. The technical demands are there. There are prerequisites that are required in order for us to get a good bond and all the rest of it. Whereas amalgam is very forgiving. So GIC isn’t an amalgam replacement. So for those people who aren’t saying, okay, cool. There’s a bunch of uncertainty. I do want to position myself to be able to do composites. Learning how to use a credit card system. You’re learning the techniques that we teach and talk about and talk with the whole efficiency aspect. And we’ve got delegates out doing similar timeframes to our algorithms. You can get very quick and very effective at working this way. It’s very simple. It’s very effective. As mentioned, it’s the minimum number of steps to do a really good job. So, hopefully that addressed your points on that. [Jaz]No, no, I think it’s important to mention. I mean, whilst the number is shrinking year by year, it is something that gives some people a lot of anxiety, the fact that amalgam won’t be around, right? Because they’re so dependent on it. And so sometimes to have a way to be efficient in a world that’s free of amalgam is important to consider and will serve a group of dentists out there. We’re now going to move this conversation. If you’re on Spotify, carry on listening. Apple, yes, carry on listening. But if you’re on YouTube, you might want to go to Protrusive Guidance website. It’s protrusive. app because then we’ll talk about communication. We’re going to talk about communicating fees. Very important. Cause we need to charge you at worth. And I’m a big believer in that. And I think I want to just highlight a really good thing that you’re doing with your movement and what you’re teaching dentists, which is to value themselves. So let’s just hit it straight in the head. We’ve talked about this before. A filling is what you put in a sandwich, right? And so, to give you an example, Starbucks. Have you heard of how Starbucks is able to charge what it charges? Like, the origin of it. [Sunny]The origin? Is it the comparison to Dunkin Donuts? Is it that one? [Jaz]Maybe. I mean, it might be to Dunkin Donuts, but essentially, like, every other cafe you ever went in had the same look, right? And they were charging the same amount. You go to the first Starbucks, like, whoa, am I in a coffee shop? It just feels different. And they’re suddenly charging twice as much as what anyone’s charging, right? And at the time, it was like, what, this much for a coffee kind of thing? But the whole experience was different. They made a whole experience out of it. And so in a way, if we market ourselves, oh yeah, you need a filling. A filling is what goes in a sandwich. Just like you said, a composite, especially when you’re doing customer placement, you’re subgingival, the class twos are tricky. Class twos are definitely tricky, especially the bigger they get, the more tricky they get. Sometimes even the claustrophobic ones are bloody tricky as well. So either way, it’s technique sensitive. It’s tricky. We need to position ourselves that it’s not a filling, it’s a reconstruction. It’s really important that we tell our patients that this is reconstruction. This is kind of like the Starbucks effect. And I’m not saying this to be manipulative or persuasive or anything like that. It’s doing justice to what we are doing. We are doing a reconstruction. So please stop calling it a filling, guys. It’s a reconstruction of your tooth. And my mind was blown by our mutual friend, Payman. Payman Langroudi. Many years ago, someone posted it on a group where he was just talking about fees and he was suggesting that how our composites should be charging at least half what our crowns do. And I was like, whoa, what? He and I had to read that again. Is that, you know, and I see what you meant because again, the time and the care and the longevity of these things is bloody good. These things will last in their mouth, so we need to value it. And therefore, these reconstructions, okay, and essentially, same day teeth. What you’re giving this patient is not different to a CEREC in a way. I know people say, CEREC doctors are shouting at the screen now, it’s like, what the hell you say? How dare you compare composite CEREC? But the care and the attention and the longevity is there, right? If it’s thick enough, it’s going to last. So any reflections on what I’ve just said here, basically on the whole same day teeth kind of thing, which is what we need to, that mindset we need to adopt. [Sunny]So many points and so many things there. I’m going to lose myself now. What I like to say, as I like to say, for just restorations, what we would say as a white filling, that’s a restoration. And then as you say, when this sort of hospital coverage, then it’s a reconstruction, it’s a big goal. So I just think I frame it slightly different than that regarding, there’s so many parts to unpack there Jaz. Where should we start? Sorry. No, there’s so much in there. [Jaz]I should have chunked it. I should have. But I just wanted to get it out. [Sunny]I should have bullet pointed that. But I think often when we talk about that, see, Payman said you should charge half the fee as a crown. That’s cool. I kind of get it. At least that’s a step in the right direction. But actually, I think actually we should be looking at, I’m- [Jaz]No, it was at least but basically the point he was making, the lesson was like, don’t think that, oh, a filling should be like a fifth of a crown. It’s like suboptimal, that’s the wrong way. Think about it. [Sunny]So I’m much more a proponent of, we should be charging for the time that we spend on the thing. So, in an ideal world, if your target hourly rate, let’s just pretend it’s 300 pounds per hour. Then everything you did should collect 300 pounds per hour, whether it was perio or extraction, whatever, you would adjust the time to reflect the rate. So for me and my patients, I see some when it comes to that discussion, whether they’re going to have a direct or indirect, I say, look, the good news is they’re both the same fee. What we’re going to decide is not what’s cheaper. We’re going to decide what’s better for you. And then again, back to your point in your episode regarding not to sell yourself short, you stress and what I stressed at delegates as well, the GDC does recommend, it will just say that you should make a recommendation. And so at that point, I’d interject and say, look, this is why I think this would be a much more suitable restoration for you, and here’s the reasons why. Now, where do those reasons come from? Not me, right? They come from the patient. If the patient’s saying at the beginning of the exam, and it’s super important to listen to them, I mean, look, many a great dentist will tell you this and does it. If the patient’s saying to you during the exam, I’m super nervous as a dentist, I don’t like treatment, all of these things that they, the patient factors are super relevant. Then perhaps, doing restoration in one go rather than doing it over multiple visits would be more comfortable for them. And so I really listen to those patients needs and some patients can’t stay in the chair too long. They just they don’t like the sound of the drill for example. So going for a crown prep may be the worst thing for them. So I really do like to listen to the patients and meet them where they are. But from my perspective also when it comes to like like the confidence to charge and all that kind of stuff I think confidence comes from competence. When you’re doing this stuff for a while, and you see that it works, and you get a seal, and as you said on your recommendation regarding courses, that you go and learn from these guys, these people who have been there, done that, and they’re saying to you, look, here’s a great protocol to follow, and then you do that. At the beginning of your career, that’s the best you can do, right? You haven’t got the longevity and the experience to see what it’s going to look like, but at least, taking those steps is a great positive step to do that. And if you are following protocol, protocol gives us consistency across the board, right? And I think from there, the confidence comes and then you start to really value yourself. But one of those things that really- [Jaz]I think a way to value yourself is when you get to that level where you have that confidence and that which gives you the confidence when you get asked to do something that is like way less than what you would do or like, maybe you fall into old habits. It feels wrong to you. Feels like, wait, you actually feel it yourself. Like, I’m not doing it for that much. I’m worth way much, much more. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. I think that’s a good thing. I think you too, everyone needs to aspire to that level where they feel like, okay, well, this is my rate. I’m worth this rate and I’ve earned this rate. So it’s not to say that we should all have these like egos and stuff. No, I’m beyond that. But actually it’s to match your level of expertise and care. [Sunny]Totally, totally. I think, there’s like a real different sort of difference in cultures across different professions as well. Dentistry is a bit difficult because we are in the health profession and then we don’t want to conflate that with profiteering. But we have businesses to run and if that is something that worries you then I think having a rate, a metric that you are working towards can just keep any feelings that you are taking advantage of people or anything away. But to give an example of a friend of mine who’s in construction, this really hit me. I remember him saying to me one day, he had this job on and he said, yeah, it’s not worth my time. I was like, that’s 500 pounds. He’s like, yeah, I’m not going to pay for that. And I was like, wow, this is a guy who actually respects his worth. Cause he knows this guy’s got just to paint the picture too, right? The guy takes this stuff seriously. He’s got a master’s in real estate. So it’s not like he doesn’t invest in it, but we do too. We invest in it. So, we’re here on a evening. Listening about the best ways and new ways and innovative ways to streamline things for our patients. Now, that’s dedication, right? And so that story, I don’t know if you’ve heard this story about Picasso. So, it really rings true. Picasso is sitting in a cafe and he’s doing a doodle on a napkin and it takes him five minutes, he does his beautiful drawing and then this lady walks over and she goes, excuse me, can I buy that? And he goes, well certainly madam, it’s 20, 000. She goes but it took you five minutes. He goes no madam. It took me a lifetime. And there’s those other Costs and you say, you should charge for your reviews because you got the building cost you got that you got all these other things. I think principals will probably be really mindful, they’ll be cognizant of hourly rate and things that are not making sense and la la la and at what point does doing free exams not make sense anymore and they’re really cognizant of all that stuff. But associates sometimes we can be in our own la la land of I just want to do dentistry I don’t want to think about anything. And so when I started doing these referral things and renting chair space and doing the whole inverted commas freelance stuff, I’m looking at this stuff just as much as a principal. Cause I’m like, oh, that didn’t make money. I actually lost on that. And yeah, I’ve got kids to feed. So it’s not about profiteering. It is just good business sense, right? You want to serve your patients to the highest, but you also for me, I want to maximize my return for my time. Time is the ultimate unit. I’m never going to get that back. [Jaz]Well, I’m surprised then, Sunny, that you mentioned this hourly rate. I feel like you’re going to break the shackles there and then talk about the next level, because maybe you planted this for me to say this, but the problem with the hourly rate is that it puts a ceiling. It puts a ceiling that, if you’re doing one complex restoration or three complex restorations. You just took an hour or an hour and 45, and now you’re just multiplying the fee. Whereas actually, sometimes, it’s better to do 3x the fee, not 1. 5 the fee. Do you see what I mean? Because if you’re going purely by time, the patient’s getting a better deal at a certain stage. The level of expertise you’re showing, managing the occlusion of more restorations, surely that needs to be a high level of expertise, and that needs to be rewarded, rather than just multiplying by time. I think there needs to be a factor of actually, per tooth, which is what I thought you were going to say. So just tell us more about that. [Sunny]No, so I’d still price it per tooth. So interestingly, this is what I do. And again, so we have the tray composite, of course, we go over the fundamentals, but then people who want more of this sort of stuff and who are trying to go and do rent surgery space or whatever else will work for me. I’d be saying to him, look, what we need to do is set your menu. Let’s just keep it simple for composites right now. And this is a guide, right? I said, you’re going to have, no, a composite that takes 30 minutes, right? And you call it simple restoration or whatever you want to call it, right? And then you’d have for 45 minutes and then you’ll have for 60 minutes. I’m not selling the time. I’m selling the time I think that restoration will take. So that restoration is priced at 45-minute restoration. This restoration is charged at a 75-minute restoration. So sometimes, yeah, you are going to win. So there is no sealing. There’s going to be times where you’re really efficient. Everything’s gone to plan. And yeah, you have made more than your expected hourly rate, but there are other times where it does go against you. So I hate that NHS terms, swings and roundabouts, but yeah, again, I don’t want to cap anyone anywhere. But then the other point to that is what’s wrong with being a dreamer and setting a really outrageous hourly rate? If you really respect your work and you’re going to deliver for the patient and you’ve got plumbers that won’t come to your house without paying 250, you paying them 250 pounds to come to your house. I just think there’s a bit of a mind block sometimes with what is fair. But to me, what is fair is dictated by the patient once more. Patients pay for what they want. If they’re not paying, your prices are probably too high. If the patients are paying, it’s probably fair. It’s up to them, not your colleague who says, Oh, but there’s no lab bill. The patient doesn’t care that there’s not a lab bill. The patient is paying for convenience. Comfort, service, longevity, they’re paying for a whole host of things. And some of those are more important to some patients and they’re less important to others. So that’s just kind of my stance on that. [Jaz]Well, just to add to that, I just want to just make sure that, look, you said it, it’s not about profiteering, but it’s about making sure that you are respecting your time. So that’s the most important thing. And sometimes you said it exactly right. Sometimes you’re winning. And sometimes you’re losing and what Lincoln Harris taught me again, I always pretty much every second episode I mentioned Linc and how much he’s taught me in my career, but remember being in Singapore. This is like 2017 his lecture in Singapore, maybe 2016 actually and I’m there, he was doing his RETP Rapid Efficient Treatment Planning course at that time, which I don’t think he does anymore live but he was doing it and then he made this really great point that sometimes you’re winning and sometimes you’re losing. And sometimes you’re losing to the extent that denture that you gave to Mrs Smith, she’s on her eighth review and you’re there half an hour every time adjusting it and I’m charged a penny extra, right? Or that implant complication that you’re just dealing with, right? And time’s taken and then you order some new laboratory things and sometimes you’re losing. So sometimes you’re losing and losing big. And so sometimes it’s okay to win big. And for me, that was like, Oh my God, he’s right. Like, why can’t we win big? So he said to me, When I win, I want to win big. He said that to me. He’s like, quite often I’m losing. And it’s not nice. So when I win, I want to ensure that I’m winning. And for me at the time, maybe it hit me in an uncomfortable way. Maybe that was my money mindset issue at the time. So I’m just being real with you. Maybe that didn’t set well me at the time. I was like, hmm, is that really fair, though? And I had my own like, money mindset issues and barriers and whatnot. But I think it’s really important for everyone to hear this and know that, okay, it might not make sense to you the first time around, but the more experience you get and the more skill that you employ and the more worth it that you feel, like it’s important to realize that it’s completely okay to win big and that our profession and what you’re training for, it really deserves the credit. [Sunny]Holy, I want to talk to that. And then I want to talk about that patient that you said that came back 25 times but talk to that. I mean, I wasn’t always this way, right? I remember when I was an NHS dentist at the beginning, and this maybe about 2014, 15, I’d go for a drink with a friend afterwards, dentist, and I’d say to him, have you ever thought about going private? And I get all the reasons as to why private was a bad idea, right? So I was kind of surrounded by that mindset for some time. And humans, we’re just the number one rationalizers in the world, right? We’re just experts. We’re professionals when it comes to rationalizing our decisions after the fact, right? So there I was really convincing myself. Of course, I think many people, when they come out of university, are really left leaning, right? And so I really believed I was helping the community and that, I was doing my bit and I was serving these people in need and all the rest of it, and sometimes I was valuing the dentistry more than they were, and it’s just the reality of it. And so I did have that mindset where like, I shouldn’t make too much money, charging beyond a hundred pounds for a composite is bad. And all of these self limiting beliefs, and that’s so cliche, like, every wannabe internet coach says that, like self limiting beliefs, but some of them are real, right? There are some truths to some of this stuff, but I definitely had it and it was a shift and a transition. And I got really interested in topics outside of dentistry that really helped me kind of understand that there is a life outside of just people that you speak to and what they see, because it’s a bit of an echo chamber sometimes. Yeah. So when I was first talking to Dr. Brown, explaining the NHS to him, and that you may have to do 10 restorations for 65 pounds, or whatever it was at the time, I can’t hear. I really think he thought I was pulling his leg. He thought I was joking. I was like, Denny, I’m not joking. And then my mind started to expand a little bit more. When you hear about this American dentist called Bruce Baird, yeah, really quite well known, this guy was doing two million dollars a year on two days a week. So I started to break that down. [Jaz]Wow. [Sunny]I said, what does that look like hourly? What does it look like per restoration? And I started moving in that direction, and I didn’t look back. And so with the confidence, being able to deliver, being able to solve problems, being kind to patients, not always thinking that you have to get a patient to say yes. It’s their opportunity to also say no during a consultation. If they want to say no, I want to know now. I don’t want to know later. It’s patients come to you with problems. And some of us have general skill sets, and some of us have skill sets that could be monetized more. You should take advantage. There’s nothing wrong with that. And the patients who are going to want your help and attention will take it, and the ones that don’t, won’t. And it’s just one little adage to that, one little addition to that. It’s often another thing I see when talking to dentists, particularly about sales and stuff, and I’ve got a sales background. Hopefully, maybe it shows. But I was a number one salesman in PC world, like, three years in a row when I was a young guy. [Jaz]So you’re from the ad! You’re from the ad! [Sunny]I’m not from the ad, Jaz. [Jaz]I always wanted to do that. [Sunny]But yeah, I mean, like, for example, you learn something when you deal with these feet, you learn with you’re dealing with people. And so one of the things I was taught, very early on in my career is that some of the people who could be the best at sales, the best at getting inverted commas, advancement, whatever you want to call it. Some people just get hang ups about the language, but whatever you want to call it. For me, I see sales as helping guide somebody to a decision. You want to help guide somebody towards action. That’s our responsibility, right? They got problems. We need to get them to take action so we can help them. If you talk and get to the point where the patient is like, yeah, okay, cool. One of the most common things I’ve seen in sales and just in general with dentists is that they just have the need to fill that silence. Yeah. And they’ll talk more and they would and they say that, you make the sale and then you take it back. And so that’s like quite a common thing I often see. An interesting real life example of, an example of this where I was a dentist’s biggest fan. So, my six year old daughter at the time had MIH, right? And so I got caries in her lower sixes and I was devastated. I was like, oh my god, what a bad dad I am, giving her too much sugar and all the rest of it. We saw a pediatric dentist because I didn’t want to treat her, right? She was very young and you got this emotional attachment to her, you know, if she flinches I’m going to feel it and all the rest of it. So, paid to see the specialist pediatric dentist and she said yep, she’s got MIH, we need to do XYZ And I said cool and then on the day of the appointment, that dentist was ill and there was another dentist there, GDP and I said look, this is a good practice I’m confident, and the lady was very nice. She treats my daughter better than I could have. Better than I could have, right? LA, the whole shebang, super caring, hand on her hand, it’s okay darling, do really well, like just care that I couldn’t have given her, right? And she does these restorations, everything’s gone well, and I knew one of them was deep because it looked like on the rad, it looked deep. She sits the patient up, now I’m chuffed, I’m this dentist’s number one fan, right? I’m ready to go write a five star Google review, that’s how happy I was, right? This is done, my kid’s happy. She didn’t cry. It’s great, great. I then say to her, very simply, she knows I’m a dentist, right? I say to her, very simply, I say, Doc, that lower left, how deep was it? Because you saw it, I didn’t see it. And for the next 90 seconds, she fills it with excuses as to this, as to that. I saw her do some things that maybe you shouldn’t do. Maybe you shouldn’t dip your microbrush in bond to smooth the composite off after, right? But listen, I wasn’t going to get into the nitty gritty, right? She got it done and I was happy. And look, if this dentist is listening, I’m still your number one fan, right? I’m just sharing this from a learning perspective, right? And I’m not naming them any names. But it got to, and she was telling me about how this molars innovated differently from an adult, and just all this stuff that I knew just wasn’t true. And I was just like, I was your biggest fan, and I’ve just left, like, just want to get out of this room now. And my point is just, it’s really common sometimes, we want to feel that silence, but sometimes people just need that silence just to think. Some people are those thinkers, some people aren’t. Their silence is not a no, and even if it is, So what? Right. Even if it, people ask me all the time, how do you deal with objections? It’s not a formula, it’s not a script. Dealing with objections, what kind of objection? What is it? So if the patient says, as an example, I need to think about it. There could be 1,000,001 reasons other than you. It may not be personal. Maybe nothing to do with your skillset. Maybe the fee was actually beyond their budget. Maybe it was, they’re not comfortable with you. There could be so many things, right? Maybe the procedure that you’ve told them that they need. They just can’t face it because they’ve got problems with their spouse right now. Who knows. What I like to do at that point is say, look, totally understand that, this is a big decision. I need to think about it too, right? Totally normal. What I’d like to do though, however, if it’s okay with you, I’d like to get back in touch with you next week. I saw you speaking to Kerry at the desk. You really got on with her. She’ll give you a shout next week and just see where you are with things. Is that okay? And you’re just now, instead of this being the patient’s kind of ended the dialogue, you’re saying, okay, cool. I totally respect that, but let me meet you where you are and can let me get in touch with you again. And now you’ve got that follow up. And guess what? I love a follow up. Yeah. I love a follow up. There’s some provider they’ve listed by. [Jaz]Follow ups are the best kind of FUs. [Sunny]Yeah. They’re the best FUs. I’ve got a big one. I mean, this is, there’s this website and they listed our course, right? And I didn’t ask for it or anything like that, yeah? And they emailed me a couple times saying, oh, you’re not using this and da da da. And I just ignored it every time. And then this guy followed up and said, look, I’d love to have a chat with you. You can like, you can just book a call with me and then I can tell you how we can maybe help you. And because there was this continuity of this conversation, I actually, I booked the call and it’s booked for Monday and I’m going to see what the guy has to say. But people are busy, life is busy and we forget about things and follow up isn’t like, you’re not pestering people. Yeah, unless they said you don’t contact me. Cool, no problem. If you’ve agreed, and that’s why I like to get permission from said person, whatever it is, if it’s okay with you. Same deal, if somebody books a free CBD session with me, I let them know we’re going to cover, what a greater curve matrix is and what it can do. I’m going to just talk very lightly about who I am, why I’m qualified to talk. I’m now going to dig deep into techniques so you can really get a grips, get to grips with this stuff. And there’ll be techniques that you can use in practice. And if it’s okay with you at the end, I’ll tell you a little bit about the course and what’s included. So I’m getting their permission too, because the last thing I want to do is present what the course is and what it can do for them. If they’re not interested. If they’re just here for the technique, no problem. But I don’t want to waste their time, and so I think getting permission is quite a respectful thing to do. Interjection:Hey guys, just a quick message to say thank you so much. Because you’re watching this bit, you’re obviously on Protrusive Guidance, and I just want to say, really, really thank you so much. If you haven’t seen already, there’s some helpful videos we’ve added, like how to download an infographic, how to download an mp3. How do you get your CPD certificates? All those common questions you’ve been asking me, how to add a case to Protrusive Guidance. So if you’re new or you want to familiarize yourself with how best to use Protrusive Guidance, do check out the new how to videos. [Jaz]So I know you teach about this stuff as well as part of the network of things that you teach. So more power to you, my friend. I’ll put this back in the YouTube for those dentists watching though. Tell us about the courses. Tell us about where they are. What format they are and how we can learn more from you. [Sunny]Okay, cool. So, I mean, easy next steps for a lot of people, if they want to learn more, they could go on to drecomposite. com. So that’s drecomposite. com. And on there you can click the free CPD tab and you can literally book a zoom with me, so you can put that with your team or you can put that one on one. I just love sharing this stuff. So as mentioned, we go deep into techniques as well, and stuff that you can use immediately. So I want to give you some immediate wins. And then from there, you really get the full gist of what this is and if it can help you, and if we’re a right fit for you, But what I do know from doing this for two years, it’s not for everybody, but the people it is for, I mean, it’s a super good fit. So, hopefully you’ll be able to see that from like our reviews and testimonials and the people that we have helped so far. Secondly to that, to the dentists who just love gizmos and love gadgets and just want to get stuck in, they can also visit that same website and they can click shop greater curve. And they can actually buy a kit, or certain bands that they want, or the retainer. They can buy what they want. And then we’ve got a resources tab, and it just shows you how to set the matrix up and start using it. We’re going to be uploading a whole bunch of interesting stuff for just people to get started, who maybe don’t want to do the course, which is perfectly fine too. Now, for those who do want to do the course, you can book it there. Mainly at the moment, we’re doing them from London. So it is a blended program in that it’s over six weeks, 20 hours CPD. So you do the online theory course first, in your own time, by size lectures. Then you turn up for the hands on day and when I say hands on you could just see a joke and I say today I’m going to be your drill sergeant because it’s lots and lots of reps. Anyone who knows me, I’m all about repetitions it’s just all hands on, right? And so now from the really good feedback from our delegates that we’ve really remodeled this to really max it out. Every time a delegate tells me and if we really just implement that no questions. So as an example, like we have breaks, but if you don’t want to take breaks, you can just stay at a station and keep, and keep working away and there will be trainers there to coach you through the day, so we will meet your energy completely. Then after that we carry on for six weeks, we’ve got a private community group. We’ve got a knowledge base. We’ve got five webinars over that series. We begin with the sort of Dre’s subgingival methodology, just that step by step, how do we approach it? Troubleshooting common errors, just all the stuff you’re really going to need to know after that phase. The one after that is a sales communication and consent. I’m a big fan of using tools like ChairSyde and Pearl. And so I actually show the exact workflows that I use. Like this is how I do it. This is how I present it. PDF cheat sheets, you name it. Like I really want people to win. So we do that and then the webinars carry on as you can see and then the final one is like really advanced applications. And at that point there’ll be many delegates who are like, cool, man. This guy’s giving me some lifelong skills. I’m back into the wilderness. I’ll go. And there will be others at that point who say, look, I want to do more training with you. And then we’ve got our anterior program, posterior. We have shadowing options. We have mentoring options. We have a longer term sort of coaching type of deal, so we’ve got two of our trainers, they were delegates turned trainers, and they’ve been doing that program ever since they did the first course. So they’ve done all the courses plus this long term coaching. And I’m not going to start talking to numbers now, cause I know it’s a public again, but some of the numbers that these guys are doing is eye watering, and if anyone wants to know, just message me, say, what was this guy doing before and what’s he doing now, as real life case studies from just the power of just being able to accelerate, you’re learning from other people’s mistakes. I trialed and errored for a long time to find my feet. So we just packaged that really neatly into other offerings, including a sales program as well. So sales communication for the dentist. Yeah. Hopefully that was a not too much of a shield. [Jaz]No, no. It’s brilliant because I’m not just saying this. I think when we have so many courses out there and choice, I think the reason why the Dre Composite course is good. Having been at myself is if you are literally like a fresh graduate, right? I think you owe yourself a course like yours because it covers basically things like caries removal, right? Caries removal, subgingival, daily stressful scenarios that we have, and how to use this wonderful tool that you’ve imported from the US and now sharing throughout Europe and stuff. So that’s great. But it’s also in there for the experienced dentist who’s had a go, tried all these matrices and is now maybe their interest has peaked. And they want to go to the next level. They want to start doing black triangles with this kind of stuff as well. And they’ve seen some of the stuff you put out there. So I think there’s something in it for everyone, but I would say as a foundational thing, like if you haven’t been to a good quality restorative course that covers these tricky scenarios, not the perfectly sized MO cavity that you never seem to get, the actual behemoth sized ones I’m getting with day in and day out. Then I think do yourself a favor, check out, everything they’re doing at drecomposite. com and I’ll be sure to put that link in the show notes. So Sunny, my friend, thanks for talking wedge lists, amalgam bans, communication tips and pearls, talking fees, all that kind of stuff. Appreciate your time, bro. [Sunny]I appreciate it as well. Thanks for having me and a big shout out to you as well, man. I really appreciate you. At the beginning when nobody knew who I was, he was one of the first to say, Look, jump on the pod, man. It’s all good. I believe in what you’re doing. So I appreciate that as well, man. Heartfelt. [Jaz]Battle of the Matrix Bands. If you haven’t seen that video, check it out. [Sunny]Totally, man. Totally, totally, totally. Jaz’s Outro:Well, there we have it, guys. Maybe you’re going to consider now changing the way you use a matrix. Maybe you’ll consider trying the greater curve. Or maybe you found another gem in there that you can apply on Monday morning. Either way, I hope you gained something from this podcast. This episode is eligible for CPD, so if you’re on Protrusive Guidance, scroll down, click on the quiz, answer a few questions, and if you get enough right, Mari, the CPD Queen, will send you a certificate. I mean, you’ve come this way, all this way to the outro, you deserve some CPD points. If you found this episode helpful or you want to show a colleague about a different way of thinking and maybe shock them about the whole wedge list and the contact opening, please consider sending it to a colleague to see how the podcast grows after all. Thank you again for joining me and to our guest, Dr. Sunny Sedana from DREcomposite. com. Oh, and of course I want to thank my team, Erika, Krissel, Gian, Mari, Nav, Emma, and Rakesh. You guys always ask me, Jaz, how do you juggle everything? How do you get all these episodes out? How do you make so much content? Well, it’s thanks to the team. If you want to support what we do, please do consider joining a paid plan on Protrusive Guidance so we can continue to make all these videos for you. The website for that once again is protrusive. app and I’ll catch you same time, same place next week. Bye for now.

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