Positive Disintegration

In episode 85, we discuss Emma’s recent piece, “The Third Path of Relationships,” which asks a question at the heart of the theory: is understanding required for love?Emma traces her own three phases of thinking about relationships—from the early days before finding positive disintegration, through her “Triangle of Loneliness” period of feeling alienated and misunderstood, to a third position that corrects some of the thinking underneath both. Chris connects the piece to work from ten years ago on understanding in relationships, and to a recent Substack essay on autopsychotherapy—including the recognition that even inner work done in solitude has always been relationally driven.The conversation covers the difference between being understood and being loved, and what becomes possible when we stop requiring the first as a condition of the second. Emma pushes back on the common critique that the theory is individualistic, arguing that the dynamisms train us to move between inner and outer work: we heal our wounds so that we can show up for other people from our values instead of our triggers. Chris shares a journal entry from more than twenty years ago that shows what that development looks like across time, and Emma reflects on caring for her parents through a season when the tables have turned.Also in this episode: overexcitability and the anticipation (and letdown) of big experiences, Chris’s upcoming trip to Australia for the Critical Autoethnography Conference in Brisbane, and how listeners can support the podcast and Chris’s independent scholarship.Links from this episode:* Emma’s piece, The Third Path of Relationships* Chris’s article, What Autopsychotherapy Has Looked Like for Me * Emma’s Triangle of Loneliness video on YouTube* Support Chris’s work and travel fundIf you appreciate our work, please subscribe, leave a rating or review on your podcast platform, and share the episode—every share helps someone find the theory. Connect with us* Positive Disintegration on Substack* Visit the Dabrowski Center website* Facebook* Instagram* The Positive Disintegration YouTube Channel* Adults with Overexcitabilities group on Facebook* The Tragic Gift blog by Emma* Email us at [email protected]* Please consider donating to the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit.* Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 84, Chris and Emma returned after a break, and this episode marks a change. We dropped into the conversation without a guest, an intro, or any of the usual formalities—just the two of us talking about positive maladjustment in the way we are living it right now.We talk about lived experience as the ground from which this theory makes sense, and why understanding it means having gone through something, not just having read about it. The conversation moves through Chris’s recent return to a decade of correspondence, the difference between learning a theory and recognizing yourself in it, and what it means to treat empathy and perspective-taking as skills built across a lifetime rather than fixed traits.We are also honest about why the format is changing. We are moving away from guests and toward conversations about our own experiences with the theory—the practices that have served us, the ones that have not, and the ways our understanding has continued to develop. This is a period of reconfiguring and realigning with who we really are. It is going to be messy for a while. We ask listeners to bear with us as we do this work out loud.Links from this episodeEmma’s DC2022 session (YouTube)Origins paper Chris mentioned (PDF)What Autopsychotherapy Is Ep. 83: Voices at the MarginsAdults with Overexcitabilities (Facebook group)PDA: Resistance and Resilience with Chris Wells and Marni KammersellConnect with us* Positive Disintegration on Substack* Visit the Dabrowski Center website* Facebook* Instagram* The Positive Disintegration YouTube Channel* Adults with Overexcitabilities group on Facebook* The Tragic Gift blog by Emma* Email us at [email protected]* Please consider donating to the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit.* Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

Episode 83 includes something we’ve never done before on Positive Disintegration. It’s a conversation among seven neurodivergent podcasters—recorded as part of a peer-reviewed paper that has just been published in Neurodiversity journal. The paper, “Voices at the Margins: Podcasting as Neuroqueer Collaborative Autoethnography and Epistemic Healing,” positions podcasting as a research methodology within critical neurodiversity studies, and this conversation is the data.The seven of us—Caitlin Hughes, Chris Wells, Emma Nicholson, Bee Mayhew, Sheldon Gay, Marni Kammersell, and Teena Mogler—sat down together to explore what podcasting makes possible that other forms of research and advocacy cannot. What emerged was a conversation about voice, belonging, lived experience as expertise, and the kind of knowledge that forms between people when they’re allowed to think out loud together.Rather than following a rigid script, we were guided by five open-ended questions that Caitlin designed to hold space for relational dialogue and reflexive sense-making. We talked about the inaccessibility of traditional knowledge spaces, what it means to reclaim lived experience as valid and generative knowledge, and the truths that live in contradiction, tangents, and half-finished thoughts. We also explored how this kind of podcasting ripples outward into neurodivergent community and belonging.The paper identifies nine resonances that emerged from the recording, including voice as epistemic repair, messiness as method, lived experience as expertise, multiplicity and difference as community, and humor and play as co-regulation. If you’ve ever felt like this podcast gave you permission to be unfinished, or helped you see yourself outside of yourself—that’s the ripple we’re talking about.Read the full paper (open access): https://doi.org/10.1177/27546330261437265Published in: Neurodiversity, Volume 4, Special Issue: Towards a Critical Turn in Neurodiversity Studies: Bridging the Arts, Humanities and the Social Sciences*A PDF of the transcript is available here The podcasters in this episode:* Caitlin Hughes (she/they) is a queer, nonbinary, multi-exceptional Australian social worker, researcher, educator, and advocate. Late-identified as Autistic, ADHD, Gifted, and PDA, Caitlin co-hosts the Divergent Dialogues podcast and brings a lived experience-led perspective to their work. They are committed to fostering epistemic healing through relational ethics, narrative reclamation, and accessible, lived experience–driven knowledge creation. * Chris Wells (they/them) is a multi-exceptional, nonbinary, and neurodivergent writer, podcaster, and developmental theorist specializing in Dąbrowski’s theory of positive disintegration. They co-host the Positive Disintegration, cosmic cheer squad, and PDA: Resistance and Resilience podcasts, and are the founding president of the Dąbrowski Center and co-creator of the Positive Disintegration Network. Chris brings lived experience and a deep commitment to reframing neurodivergence through a developmental and relational lens.* Emma Nicholson (she/her) is a neurodivergent Australian Senior Business Analyst, creative and advocate, identifying as gifted, Dyscalculic, with all five overexcitabilities (psychomotor, sensual, intellectual, imaginational, and emotional), as well as bisexual and Heathen. She co-hosts the Positive Disintegration Podcast and serves as Vice President of the Dąbrowski Center. She is driven by an unkillable passion to demystify positive disintegration and share hard-won truths to help others feel seen and supported.* Bee Mayhew (she/her) is a multiply neurodivergent (late-identified AuDHD, former gifted kid) writer, narrative collaborator, and communication coordinator for PDN Media. She co-hosts cosmic cheer squad podcast and has a background as a hospitality specialist and business owner. Bee’s work centers on collective narrative-building and neurodivergent storytelling through activist, community-rooted practice.* Sheldon Gay (he/him) is a Black Gifted speaker and podcast host of I Must Be BUG'N (Black Underrepresented/Unidentified Gifted and otherwise Neurodivergent). Sheldon is guided by the belief that learning to deeply and wholly Love oneSelf, cape and kryptonite, is the path to finding, creating, and maintaining Love everywhere we go.* Marni Kammersell (she/her) is an American late-identified neurodivergent (Autistic, ADHD, PDA, gifted) parent of neurodivergent children. She is an educator, researcher, writer, and consultant, and co-hosts the PDA: Resistance and Resilience podcast. Marni is dedicated to honoring neurodivergent experience through relational, self-directed, and nervous-system-informed knowledge practices.* Teena Mogler (she/her) is an Australian AuDHD social worker, researcher, educator, and advocate, as well as co-host of the Divergent Dialogues podcast. As a mother to neurodivergent children, Teena is passionate about amplifying neurodivergent voices and disrupting epistemic injustice through lived experience-led, neuroaffirming, and critically reflexive knowledge practices.Find the podcasters:* Divergent Dialogues: divergentdialogues.substack.com* I Must Be BUG’N: sheldongayisbugn.com* Positive Disintegration: www.positivedisintegration.org* cosmic cheer squad: cosmiccheersquad.substack.com* PDA: Resistance and Resilience: pdapodcast.substack.comConnect with us* Positive Disintegration on Substack* Visit the Dabrowski Center website* Facebook* Instagram* The Positive Disintegration YouTube Channel* Adults with Overexcitabilities group on Facebook* The Tragic Gift blog by Emma* Email us at [email protected]* Please consider donating to the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit.* Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In this enlightening discussion, Mattia Maurée, an AuDHD coach and advocate, dives into the intricate worlds of ADHD, autism, and PDA—the Pervasive Drive for Autonomy. They emphasize the difference between merely functioning and truly flourishing, while critiquing traditional pathology paradigms. Mattia shares personal experiences of misdiagnosis and the importance of self-awareness. The conversation highlights the challenges of traditional work environments for neurodivergent individuals and offers radical advice: sometimes, doing less is the key to thriving.

In episode 81, Chris and Emma mark four years of the podcast with a candid look at what’s changed—in themselves, their work, and their relationship to the theory.Both faced challenges this year, and both noticed something striking: they handled it differently than they would have before. The theory has become a real-time companion rather than a post-mortem tool—dynamisms catching in the moment instead of being identified after the fact.They discuss:* The shift from analyzing crises afterward to navigating them as they unfold* How relational resilience and genuine listening matter (with gratitude to bee mayhew )* What they’d do differently—never saying levels, prioritizing lived experience over expertise, better audio equipment* Plans for 2026: more episodes featuring just the two of them, deeper dives into lived experience* An announcement: they’re stepping away from the Dabrowski Congress to take a new directionThe episode ends where the theory always points: shedding what’s less like us and moving toward greater autonomy.Resources from this episode* Dabrowski 101 (YouTube)* Ep. 56: Autoethnography for Personal Growth* Ep. 72, Healing through Writing with Dr. Lil Jedynak (The Gifted Experience) * cosmic cheer squad podcast* PDA: Resistance and Resilience podcastConnect with us* Positive Disintegration on Substack* Visit the Dabrowski Center website* Facebook* Instagram* The Positive Disintegration YouTube Channel* Adults with Overexcitabilities group on Facebook* The Tragic Gift blog by Emma* Email us at [email protected]* Please consider donating to the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit.* Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 80, Chris and Emma talked with Heather Anne Keyes, a neuroqueer Gestalt psychotherapist and educator based in Durango, Mexico. Together, we explore the intersections between sexuality, neurodivergence, and development through the lens of Dąbrowski’s theory of positive disintegration.This conversation invites listeners to think about how we relate to ourselves and others when we step outside of convention. Heather’s insights bridge psychotherapy and lived experience, showing how awareness, compassion, and honesty can transform the way we love, communicate, and grow.Topics include:* Rethinking monogamy, non-monogamy, and ethical relationships* The overlap between giftedness, neurodivergence, and relational complexity* Gestalt therapy as a practice of awareness, authenticity, and co-creation* I-Thou relationships and the ethics of seeing others as full humans* The role of language in communication and self-understanding* How Buddhist psychology and radical acceptance inform Heather’s workHeather also shares moving reflections on loss, love, and the lifelong process of learning to “accept pain without turning it into unnecessary suffering.”Resources from this episodeHeather’s websiteHumans of Gestalt (website)Humans of Gestalt (YouTube)Connect with us* Positive Disintegration on Substack* Visit the Dabrowski Center website* Facebook* Instagram* The Positive Disintegration YouTube Channel* Adults with Overexcitabilities group on Facebook* The Tragic Gift blog by Emma* Email us at [email protected]* Please consider donating to the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit.* Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

Richard Edelman, founder of Living Arts Wisdom and a cultural evolution strategist, explores the transformative concept of positive disintegration. He connects neuroscience with evolutionary philosophy and discusses how our collective crises, like climate change, reflect a species-wide disintegration. Through the lens of interpersonal neurobiology, Richard reveals the 'deep neuroculture'—our interconnected nervous system. He emphasizes the importance of bravery and relational evolution as we navigate these challenges, urging individuals to consciously participate in shaping the future.

In episode 78, we continued our rich and engaging conversation with Autum Romano, an educator, bodyworker, and author from Colorado Springs, CO. This is the second in a two-part conversation exploring polyvagal theory and its relevance to personality development, healing, and human connection.We deepen our exploration of polyvagal theory and its connections with developmental experience, neurodivergence, and positive disintegration.Together, we unpack:* How neuroception and energetic sensitivity shape relational dynamics* The intersection of PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance), trauma, and cues of safety* How overexcitabilities can become dynamisms that help us grow in relationship* The role of relationships in co-regulation, especially for intense and neurodivergent individuals* Why true connection is essential to healing and development—and how hard it is to cultivate in unsafe environmentsChris reflects on their own experience as a gifted PDAer, highlighting how sensitivity to energy and autonomy needs has shaped their emotional regulation and social interactions. Autum and Emma both offer powerful insights about learning to tune into not just how others affect us, but how we impact them, too.This episode is rich with hard-earned wisdom about nervous system safety, embodied growth, and the power of safe, attuned relationships. If you’ve ever felt “too much,” struggled with co-regulation, or wondered how to find the green zone in your life—this one’s for you.Links from this episodeAutum’s websiteBody Wisdom and the Polyvagal Theory (Autum’s book)PDA: Resistance and Resilience podcast with Marni Kammersell and Chris WellsEpisode 56: Autoethnography for Personal GrowthLiving with IntensityPDA North AmericaIntense World TheoryDr. Stephen Porges, Safe and Sound ProtocolConnect with us* Positive Disintegration on Substack* Visit the Dabrowski Center website* Facebook* Instagram* The Positive Disintegration YouTube Channel* Adults with Overexcitabilities group on Facebook* The Tragic Gift blog by Emma* Email us at [email protected]* Please consider donating to the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit.* Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 77, Chris and Emma were joined by Autum Romano, an educator, bodyworker, and author from Colorado Springs, CO. This is the first in a two-part conversation exploring polyvagal theory and its relevance to personality development, healing, and human connection.Autum brings 28+ years of experience in the healing arts and a rich understanding of the nervous system. Together, we dive into the basics of polyvagal theory—including the three autonomic states (ventral, sympathetic, and dorsal), neuroception, and co-regulation—and connect it with Dąbrowski’s theory of positive disintegration.Topics include:* How our nervous system shapes our experience and reactions* Using body-based tools for nervous system regulation* Understanding fight, flight, and freeze responses in relationships* Recognizing your dominant pattern and learning to move between states* How safety, connection, and emotional healing are intertwined* The overlap between polyvagal theory and Dabrowskian development* Personal stories about trauma responses, self-awareness, and growthAutum’s insights offer a compassionate, grounded lens on how to support development—not by avoiding dysregulation, but by learning to move through it with awareness. Whether you’re new to polyvagal theory or looking to deepen your understanding, this episode offers something valuable.Stay tuned for Part 2, where the conversation continues.Links from this episodeAutum’s websiteBody Wisdom and the Polyvagal TheoryConnect with us* Positive Disintegration on Substack* Visit the Dabrowski Center website* Facebook* Instagram* The Positive Disintegration YouTube Channel* Adults with Overexcitabilities group on Facebook* The Tragic Gift blog by Emma* Email us at [email protected]* Please consider donating to the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit.* Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In this special crossover episode, we’re sharing Episode 3 of cosmic cheer squad—our new podcast from the Positive Disintegration Network. Chris and Bee are joined by a very special guest: Emma Nicholson, co-host of Positive Disintegration, for an in-person, around-the-table conversation recorded in Madison, Wisconsin.Together, they reflect on:* How they became friends and collaborators through the theory of positive disintegration* The idea of cosmic pockets as a way to hold intense feelings until it’s safe to process them* Inner critics, intrusive thoughts, and how to rewrite old narratives* Parenting yourself while raising others* Emotional trampolines, anti-cults, and resisting illegitimate authority* Why the Gravitron might be the perfect metaphor for developmentPlus: Bee’s legendary toffee, Aussie accent jokes, trench coat metaphors, and the beginnings of a truly cozy counterculture.💫 It’s part reunion, part origin story, and all heart. Come sit with us.Links from this episodeFind Emma online:* Tragic Gift (blog)* Adults with Overexcitabilities (YouTube)* Adults with Overexcitabilities (Facebook group)* Positive Disintegration (Instagram)We referenced:* Cosmic Pocket* Sneaky StimmingPositive Disintegration:* Episode 33: A Personal Journey of Self-Discovery, with David Sweeney* Episode 37: Self-Directed Education with Marni Kammersell This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe