ANDY CROWE ● BILL YATES ● NICK WALKER ● ELLEN SMITH NICK WALKER:  Welcome to Manage This, the podcast by project managers for project managers.  This is our every other week chance to meet and talk about the things that matter most to you as a professional project manager.  What does it take to get started in the field?  To get certified?  And how do you survive? I’m your host, Nick Walker.  And with me are our resident experts, Andy Crowe and Bill Yates.  They’ve experienced the challenges, they’ve tasted the victories of project management, and they want to share their experience with you. And, guys, we are fortunate once again to have a special guest in the studio today.  Ellen Smith is an attorney with Holt Ney in Atlanta.  She deals with commercial real estate, wireless telecommunications, and land use; and her clients range from single individual member limited liability companies to nonprofit hospitals to Fortune 500 companies.  Varied in her talents, for sure.  Ellen, thanks so much for being with us on Manage This. ELLEN SMITH:  Thanks for having me. NICK WALKER:  We are so looking forward to talking with you about our topic today, and that is negotiation.  But before we get there, Andy and Bill, let’s talk a little bit about the need for negotiation when it comes to project management.  Andy? ANDY CROWE:  And Nick, I want to back up.  You said we’ve “tasted the victories of project management”? NICK WALKER:  That’s my impression. ANDY CROWE:  Bill, is that your experience of your work in project management? BILL YATES:  What I conjure up is more of a bitterness, you know, like the most bitter coffee. ANDY CROWE:  Thinking the bitter dregs? BILL YATES:  Yeah, yeah, yeah.  That coffee that’s been sitting there all day. NICK WALKER:  So it’s more the agony of defeat than the thrill of victory. BILL YATES:  Maybe. ANDY CROWE:  You know, it’s one of those – you remember the old saying that you have to have a strong stomach to see how the sausage is made? NICK WALKER:  Yes, yes. ANDY CROWE:  And when you go back and sometimes see how a project gets done, and see what it takes to get there, you’d better have a strong stomach and a strong sense of yourself.  But no, I’m excited about this topic because it’s this whole idea of negotiation.  And the project manager is in such a difficult position.  And this is what nobody really stops to think about.  So you’ve got the organization.  You’ve got this whole group of stakeholders.  You’ve got senior management.  And you’ve got sponsors, users, customers, all of these people. And the way I think about it is sort of picture them in an inverted pyramid.  So that’s on the top side of the pyramid, this triangle pointing down, with the tip pointing down.  And then below you, you’ve got the team.  And that can include a lot of different people.  It can include virtual relationships.  It can include dedicated straight-line reporting relationships.  And the PM is stuck in the middle between those two points.  So there’s a... BILL YATES:  Two very sharp points. ANDY CROWE:  They can get very sharp. BILL YATES:  Yes, very pointy. ANDY CROWE:  And so there’s this idea that the project manager is constantly negotiating everything, all day every day.  That’s really a lot of the job, at the heart of the job.  You could call the person a “project negotiator” as opposed to a project manager.  I mean, there are people who just tick off boxes and say yes, complete, check, check.  And we think about those as maybe a coordinator. BILL YATES:  Right. ANDY CROWE:  But in this case a project manager has to go back in the kitchen and make the sausage.  And it is tricky, and sometimes it’s very ugly, and it’s a lot of work. BILL YATES:  Yeah.  There are third parties that they’re having to rely on to provide valuable deliverables for this project.  So they’ve got contracts, perhaps, with third parties.

ANDY CROWE ● BILL YATES ● NICK WALKER NICK WALKER: Welcome to Manage This, the podcast by project managers for project managers. Every two weeks we get together to talk about what matters to you as a professional project manager. We cover what it takes to get certified, what it takes to do the job of project management. I’m your host, Nick Walker. And beside me are our in-house experts, Andy Crowe and Bill Yates. They are project managers for project managers. They instruct other project managers and those working to become one. So, guys, last time we talked about projects that are in trouble. And we want to catch the trouble before they go up in flames. We talked about a lot of ways to do that. So let’s recap just a little bit and then go forward and talk about how we get to the end and really make this project a success. ANDY CROWE: You know what, Nick, this is something we need to be talking about in the project management community. So the approach that most companies take is they say, well, we’re going to look at ways to never get in this situation. But the truth is over two thirds of projects come in over time and over budget, and they don’t meet the critical success factors. They don’t hit that target, that elusive butterfly of success. They never capture it in their net. And so what do you do if you’re in that situation? And to be honest, I’ve taught and mentored PMs before who live in that situation, so it’s not an unusual thing. It’s just difficult to talk about. NICK WALKER: Two thirds of projects. That’s an amazing statistic. ANDY CROWE: Yeah, the actual numbers are worse than that. But we’re going to be happy and say two thirds. BILL YATES: And it’s a reality. So why not get tooled up in learning how to do this part of my job as a project manager? And we, you know, the first session we talked about the first step is identifying that, identifying when I’m in a project that is in serious trouble, so how to detect it. We talked about smelling the smoke and looking at the canary. ANDY CROWE: Yeah, Bill liked the more intuitive approach, and I advocated for the data-driven approach. But those two meet, absolutely. Those two intersect. BILL YATES: Absolutely. NICK WALKER: And then we have to come up with just the correct approach. And there are a couple of different ways to go there, too. BILL YATES: Yeah. Some companies, they go with the tiger team, the parachute in the expert that’s me to come fix everything. And then what we really focused on more was the do-it-yourself, the you are leading a project. You’ve determined that it is in serious trouble. So what are you going to do about it? NICK WALKER: And I loved how you emphasized so much the need to try to keep calm because intuitively this is the time that you’re going to be the least calm, perhaps. BILL YATES: Yeah. You’ve gone to that “in case of emergency” box. You’ve busted it open, and you’re trying to calm yourself down so that you can actually lead the team with competency and professionalism. ANDY CROWE: Right. We talked about last time nobody’s at their best leading out of fear. NICK WALKER: And then there was that aha moment for me where we talked about trying to move forward, but in order to do that you’ve got to move backward before you do. BILL YATES: Right. Yeah, you have to do root cause analysis. You have to fully understand what is the problem. Maybe, to Andy’s point before, we’ve got some reports that have shown some troubling trends. We have the data in front of us. Now we’ve got to roll our sleeves up, get into it, and figure out what is causing us to miss our milestones. Why are our budgets suddenly blowing up? Why are all the errors and defects suddenly cropping up where they weren’t before? ANDY CROWE: So Bill, let me ask you a question in starting us off in the next step here. You’re dealing with a lot of different dynamics. Some of those may, we talked about the last time,

ANDY CROWE ● BILL YATES ● NICK WALKER NICK WALKER:  Welcome to Manage This, the podcast by project managers for project managers.  This is our every week chance to meet and talk about what matters most to you as a professional project manager.  We talk about getting started, getting certified, getting the stuff of project management done. I’m your host, Nick Walker, and beside me are our in-house experts, Andy Crowe and Bill Yates.  They are project managers themselves.  They mentor other project managers and those working to become one.  And guys, today’s topic addresses what might be to some teams sort of an elephant in the room, the fact that many projects don’t move along as we originally envision.  In fact, Andy, sometimes, as a friend of mine once put it, you know, when the manure hits the combine blades... ANDY CROWE:  Right, the fertilizer hits the ventilation system, sure. NICK WALKER:  Yeah, right. ANDY CROWE:  Yeah, and you know what, a lot of times figuring out what to do with a troubled project, with a project that’s in distress, and where do you start?  And a lot of PMs spend time in this space.  This isn’t an unfamiliar territory for a lot of people. BILL YATES:  Yeah, people should not be surprised by this.  This happens.  This is a part of project management.  There’s a quote by William A. Cohen.  He says:  “All successful projects are simply a long series of adversities that must be overcome.  Adversity is normal.” NICK WALKER:  So we just need to look reality in the face and say, okay, this is just going to happen.  Adversity is going to happen.  But is there a difference between just simple adversity, you know, little roadblocks that come in the way, or something that is really in flames? ANDY CROWE:  Well, there certainly can be.  A lot of times project managers start a project.  They don’t have any input into the finish date.  They don’t have input into the schedule, necessarily, or the budget.  And now they kind of have to find some way to meet the goals of the project.  By the time that they get added, they’re already in trouble. NICK WALKER:  Yeah.  So sometimes it’s even almost too late.  So what do you do at that point?  How do you sort of regroup and pick up? BILL YATES:  Yeah, and that’s what we’ll focus on today is looking at those troubled projects, those that are in recovery mode, those that need turnaround. ANDY CROWE:  Right.  And so Bill, maybe not just the ones in recovery mode, but the ones that need to be in recovery mode. BILL YATES:  Right. ANDY CROWE:  Maybe they’re going along, business as usual.  They haven’t detected trouble yet.  So let me ask you, if you’re thinking about a project, what’s the canary in the coal mine to you to know if there are problems on the project, to know if it’s time to kind of circle the wagons and start thinking about it differently, put it in recovery mode?  When do you – what are some of the triggers? BILL YATES:  Yeah.  There are – that’s the perfect place to start.  There are many triggers to me, many signs to look at to detect trouble.  And some of those are real soft skill type things.  You’ve got to read people.  Others are hardcore metrics.  So you start, if I think about soft skill stuff, Andy, I think about some of the past projects that I’ve worked on where things, the train came off the rails.  And many times you could pick up on it in your interaction with a customer.  The customer’s attitude towards you or towards the project or towards the team changed. ANDY CROWE:  Right. BILL YATES:  In some cases, the customer disappeared.  They no longer had an interest in the project.  And that was scary.  That’s scary. ANDY CROWE:  Well, as long as the money’s still flowing, I guess it’s not all that scary. BILL YATES:  Yeah, right.  Yeah, you may think, you know, well, there are times when I wish my customer would go away so we could get something done.

ANDY CROWE ● BILL YATES ● NICK WALKER ● TIM KELLY NICK WALKER:  Welcome to Manage This, the podcast by project managers for project managers.  It’s a great opportunity to talk about what matters most to you.  Whether you’re a professional project manager, or maybe you’re working toward one of your certifications, we want to help spark your imagination, light a fire under you, and encourage you along the way.  And we do that by talking about issues, friends in the field, and hearing from those in the trenches who are doing the job of project management. I’m your host, Nick Walker, and with me are two guys who know the score when it comes to project management.  They’ve been there, done that.  They know what it takes to succeed.  And they are here to help you succeed.  They are our resident experts, Andy Crowe and Bill Yates.  And guys, as we look back over our previous podcasts, we’ve had some amazing guests on our show.  And Andy, it looks like we’ve got another heavy-hitter today. ANDY CROWE:  We do.  We’ve got a great guest.  Tim Kelly with McKesson is in the house today.  So welcome, Tim. TIM KELLY:  Thank you. NICK WALKER:  Let’s meet you, Tim; okay?  Tim Kelly, an executive director of technology for McKesson.  He’s with the company’s Business Performance Services business unit.  He has more than 20 years of experience in information technology, information systems management, software and product development, program and project management, as well as wearing many other hats.  Tim, welcome to Manage This. TIM KELLY:  Thanks.  Awesome to be here. NICK WALKER:  Tell us a little bit more about you.  We want to get to know you a little bit better. TIM KELLY:  I have a kind of a unique background.  I grew up managing McDonald’s restaurants, and that was an opportunity to shape the foundation of how I understand people and how to manage profit principles.  So it was a unique opportunity. NICK WALKER:  You know, a lot of people might laugh at that:  “I started at McDonald’s.”  But that is a perfect example of putting what you’ve learned into practice in bigger arenas. TIM KELLY:  Absolutely.  I was studying economics at the University of Utah and had an opportunity to practice what I was studying at the same time.  I learned management principles and clearly a number of key projects.  An example would be trying to put a new HVAC on the roof.  So it had to happen, and you had to figure that out as a manager of a restaurant.  So absolutely had an opportunity to apply the principles.  I wasn’t yet certified at the time, to be clear.  This was many years ago.  But I did recently have a chance to hook up with Velociteach and become certified. BILL YATES:  Yeah, so 2009, Nick.  I had the pleasure of standing in front of a class and looking at the eager eyes of Tim Kelly as he was mastering the Project Management Institute’s framework on project management.  And Tim and I are friends.  We go back further than that.  But it was a rare treat for me to have a buddy in the classroom. TIM KELLY:  Yeah. BILL YATES:  And it was a lot of fun helping you reach that goal. TIM KELLY:  It was awesome.  I tell you what, I also trained for a number of years.  So I opened a training business with Packard Bell NEC in my past.  And just a quick plug for the work that you guys do, the approach, the mnemonic approach about how to retain and learn information, absolutely awesome.  Scored very highly on both the pretest at the end of Bill’s session and then of course did really well on the exam.  So not only did it prove useful from an exam perspective, but I think the approach allowed me to retain the content and then leverage that in business.  So that’s just true-to-life real stuff from someone who’s gone through it and then had to leverage it. ANDY CROWE:  Outstanding. NICK WALKER:  Yeah, bring us up to date now.  What are some of the hats you’re wearing right now?

ANDY CROWE ● BILL YATES ● NICK WALKER NICK WALKER:  Welcome to Manage This, the podcast by project managers for project managers.  Every two weeks we meet to talk about what matters to you as a professional project manager.  We’re into project management certification, doing the job of project management, and we get inside the brains of some of the leaders in the industry. I’m your host, Nick Walker; and beside me are the resident experts Andy Crowe and Bill Yates.  Now, in a perfect world you could look up “project manager” in the dictionary, and you’d find their pictures right beside the definition.  They are the epitome of project management.  They’re project managers themselves.  They instruct other project managers and those working to become one. Now, guys, we decided that this topic deserved a double header.  So we’re going to pick up where we left off last time.  The subject, Andy, performance reviews. ANDY CROWE:  Yeah, Nick.  In the podcast number 12, the last time, we dealt with this topic kind of generally.  And this time we’re going to get a little bit more specific.  We’re going to get into some best practices, some practical tools and techniques. But to me, one of the things that we can do here is look at other organizations who are doing it right.  Last time we talked about a couple of ways that were outmoded, maybe that didn’t work so well anymore.  Now we want to look at the ones who are doing it right.  What are they doing?  How are they approaching it?  You know, because things change.  The same techniques that worked in the 1940s maybe don’t translate so well today.  A lot of organizations are doing some of the things the same way we did them in the ‘60s and ‘70s, and it’s time to take a fresh look at it.  So we’re going to try and update that. But the bigger point here, this is one of those areas that causes project managers a lot of anxiety in giving performance reviews.  They don’t want to do it.  They get torqued up about it.  And a lot of times it’s even worse when you’re on the receiving end.  You know, you sit there, and you and I both know, everybody, everybody who’s listening to this podcast has probably had the experience where your manager gives you a performance review.  You hear several things you’re doing right, and then maybe one thing that you’re not doing so well.  And what do we walk away and focus on and obsess about the rest of the week is that one thing.  So we’re going to look at all of this today, but we’re going to get a lot more practical. NICK WALKER:  Okay.  Before we get into some of those best practices, let’s rewind just a second, talk about maybe what sets a good performance review apart from a bad one.  Last time we talked about the old school we’re all familiar with, the annual review, the bell curve.  Now we’re talking about a new way, less formal, more frequent reviews.  We talked about some of the companies that have been involved in this new way, Bill. BILL YATES:  Right, companies such as Accenture, Adobe, Deloitte, and GE.  Those are some places where we can take a peek and see what’s working for them and distill some best practices from that and share that. NICK WALKER:  So some of the things we want to get into today are how to give a performance review; when to give a performance review; how to receive a performance review.  So let’s talk a little bit about some of these.  Let’s spend some time talking about when.  When is the best time to do this? BILL YATES:  Yeah, and this was interesting.  So we talked about the breakaway from the annual review and how, like the companies I just mentioned, they’re ditching the annual review and saying this doesn’t make sense.  There’s too long of a gap between the performance and the review, the feedback.  Let’s make it more frequent, and let’s make it less formal.  Quarterly seems to be the rhythm that is coming out in most cases. However, we talked about in our first episode some of the Agi...

Giving and receiving performance reviews is an anxiety-producing event. We’re talking through that from a project manager’s perspective.

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Tune in now for our most intriguing episode yet. Dr. David Bray joins the crew to discuss his career leading up to becoming the CIO of the US Federal Communications Commission. He also shares his philosophy on "change agents" and how to empower the edge.

Louis Alderman and the team focus on the 6th Edition of the PMBOK Guide and discuss the recent exposure draft and how it will impact the PMP Certification Exam in the future. Tune in for the latest and greatest.