Get Rich Education

Firebrand speaker and author of “Killing Sacred Cows”, Garrett Gunderson, joins us to discuss wealth mindset and value creation. Also, Keith touches on the impact of falling interest rates on various loans and the economy noting that lower rates can benefit savers and investors. Historical data shows that home prices have only fallen 6 times in the last 83 years, signaling the rarity of significant price declines.  Learn about the Rockefeller method, which involves using trusts and whole life insurance to preserve and grow wealth. Garrett advocates for investing in real estate, businesses, and intellectual property rather than mutual funds or ETFs. DM Garrett on Instagram to receive a free copy of his book on the Rockefeller method. Resources: GarrettGunderson.com or  Alon Instagram @garrettbgunderson Join our upcoming GRE live event right here! - ‘New Turnkey Properties with ZERO Money Down’ on Thursday 10/24. Show Notes: GetRichEducation.com/522 For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 For advertising inquiries, visit: GetRichEducation.com/ad Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREmarketplace.com/Coach Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Complete episode transcript:   Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai     Keith Weinhold  00:01 Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, talking about what falling interest rates really mean to you. 10 years of the GRE podcast, politics are overrated. How often do home prices fall? The latest in AI generated podcasting and then wealth mindset and wealth preservation all today on get rich education.   00:27 Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests and key top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast, or visit get rich education.com   Corey Coates  01:12 You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.   Keith Weinhold  01:28 Welcome to GRE from Evansville, Indiana to Victorville, California and across 488 nations worldwide for an entire decade of your life now, this is Get Rich Education. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, what does it mean that we're in an era of falling interest rates from the recent peaks, rates of all types have fallen. Mortgage rates have fallen. The Fed funds rate has fallen, and that prime rate has fallen too. I mean the prime rate that you pay, that's basically the Fed funds rate plus 3% and why the prime rate matters to you is that can affect credit cards, home equity loans, automobile loans and small business loans, every one of them down, down, down. So to any savvy investor that knows what's going on in the 21st century? This can mean celebration for your wallet, for your finances. And look in old days, lower rates, that would be bad news, not good news. And why is this? Well, in olden days, and some people still have an outdated mindset, lower rates are bad because savings accounts used to make sense back in the day, and lower interest rates means lower rates for savers on their bank, savings accounts. Yeah, those 5% online only savings accounts are going to four and a half with the Fed's half point rate cut last month. Well, 100 years ago, you could be a saver. That made some sense, because their interest rates could reliably beat inflation over time, but not today. Today, since inflation transfers wealth from lenders to borrowers and inflation redistributes wealth from savers to debtors. For those like us that understand this and act accordingly, we are indeed the beneficiaries of lower interest rates. Now, there are other effects out there in the economy. Cheaper loans could lead to more m&a activity, more mergers and acquisitions that can benefit investment banks like your Goldman Sachs that facilitates those transactions. Well, what happens to real estate prices amidst lower interest rates? What happens is that they tend to rise now here on the show, you remember that since 2022 I have discussed what has surprised a lot of people. Amidst rising interest rates, the environment that we used to have, home prices tend to rise. And it has happened again. When mortgage rates tripled, prices kept right on rising. So you might wonder, well, wait a second, which is it or I'm confused, amidst rising interest rates, home prices rise and amidst falling interest rates, home prices rise too. And the answer is yes, look at history over hunches. To our newsletter readers, I recently sent you that great chart, a table, I guess it showed the national home price, rate of appreciation or depreciation for every single year, going back to World War Two and from 1942 until today, those 83 years, how many times do you think that home prices fell over the last 83 years? There were exactly six, six of the last 83 years, only six where home prices fell. Paradoxically, interest rates don't have much to do with home prices, and this is all per Case Shiller statistics. Over the last 83 years, there were only six down years. 72 were up. Five were even. And of those six down years in the last 83 five of the six down years were tied up in a once. I mean, it took a once in several generations confluence, a cataclysm of events to occur during the global financial crisis, 2007 to 2011 all at once. Back then, it was a housing supply, surplus, disgustingly lawless mortgage market, cheap credit and a preponderance of debt in the banking system since World War 2, 83 years ago, there was only one other year when home prices fell, that was 1990 when they fell by 1%. If you're waiting for Home prices to fall substantially, it is super unlikely that that is going to happen. Just look at history, and today's market has more than the housing shortage in loads of protective homeowner equity, which means low delinquency rates, and we have permanently inflated higher prices baked into replacement costs of all kinds, land, architecture, engineering, permitting, regulation, labor, building, equipment, construction materials all over the place, but us, you know, as real estate investors, we might be more interested in rent appreciation than prices just four years ago, you know, just then to pay $2,000 to rent a single family home. I mean, that was quite a nice place in the Midwest and South. And today I have modest single family rentals built 50 years ago that are about 1200 square feet, and now they rent for $2,000 $2,000 a month's rent that is common today, and we are rooting for rents to appreciate faster than home prices. And if you want to get our newsletter, you're probably on that list by now, and reading it, I just send some of the best charts in real estate maps to you. You can sign up free right now. Just do it while it's on your mind. Text GRE to 66866, that's text GRE to 66866, for our Don't quit your Daydream Letter. Political season is heating up. We are at a time where we are one month from a general election, and that means we're electing a new president, vice president, 1/3 of the Senate, the entire house of representatives and various state and local officials. Yes, politics matter. Politics affect real estate. So why don't I discuss this more here on the show. Well, I explained that to you a while ago. It gets divisive, and it rarely affects people as much as they think. And as you know, I avoid even using words like Democrat, Republican, left, right, conservative and liberal. And why do I do that? Because they are divisive terms. The problem isn't so much politics. It's when people get infected with the partisan mind virus. Yes, they put party over country. For example, a partisan political instigator will swear to god that the economy is great now, but as soon as, say, a different party wins an election, even if the economy is the same, although now say that that same economy is awful. In fact, a couple years ago, I quit my job as a writer for a publication that you've heard of before. I no longer contribute to them. They put party before country, in my opinion, I wrote an article for them about two years ago, and my article made it sound like an eminent recession was a question, not a foregone conclusion. Well, the editor let me know that their consensus of writers feels like a recession is eminent and that I need to change my article to reflect that that's because they don't like the administration that's in power, so I quit rather than edit my article. I mean, if you just ask an American the question, this question, do you wish that America were less divided? Well. Any sane person would answer that question, yes. Well, then why would you go attach divisive labels to the other side and attack them? It makes no sense. That's where the division comes from. So really, it ought to be about solutions and ideologies and not political parties. So this is another reason why, during political season, I don't play those games, and we stick to investing the economy and wealth mindset. I mean, virtually no other country in the world drags out their presidential election cycle this long. I mean, it's like a year and a half. Remember all those debates last year and names like Nikki Haley and Vivek Ramaswamy that were in the news all the time. I mean, other countries get this entire process over with in six weeks. Let's take a page from them, and that way we can have more constructive things in our news cycle.  Well, I am coming to you from the makeshift mobile GRE studio today, like I do some weeks, because this morning, I woke up in reading Pennsylvania. Reading is, in fact, my birthplace, and besides being the pretzel capital of the United States, one way that you know about reading is from the Reading Railroad property in the board game Monopoly. Yeah, it's one of the properties that you can buy and, I guess, collect rent on. And, you know, here we are a real estate show. So maybe it's appropriate that the namesake of my birthplace is immortalized as a property on America's best known real estate game. And it also might be appropriate that I'm back here because the 10th anniversary of the launch of this show is nigh this coming Thursday, on October 10, 1010, it will be 10 years since episode one of this show. And yes, the math, I suppose, checks out, because there are about 52 weeks in a year, and you are listening to episode 522, right now. Well, listen to this. This could blow your mind. Have you heard an AI generated podcast? And I don't just mean sort of where a robot reads a blog in monotone and then you listen to that audio file that's embedded in the article. No, that's not what I'm talking about. Here's what I mean. A few weeks ago, I learned that macroeconomist Richard Duncan, who was the first ever guest on this show back in 2014 Gosh, all these tie ins to GRE 's origins today? Well, Richard published some PDF charts, and he uploaded them to notebooklm.google.com, that's how you find this. And he clicked generate audio overview, and within three minutes, it had created a podcast with two virtual people having this pretty intelligent, engaging and even humorous conversation about his presentation on interest rates. I mean, wow, just listen to the first minute or minute and a half of this AI generated podcast here. And again, this is from about a month ago. So they're talking about the upcoming Fed rate cut that did indeed happen.   13:23 All right, ready to dive in. Today, we're tackling the big question everyone wants to know, will the Fed actually cut rates on September 18? It's the question on everyone's mind, for sure, and more importantly, for our listeners, what's it going to mean for them to help us unpack this whole thing. We're looking at this report. It's by economist Richard Duncan, called why the Fed will cut September 12, 2024. Duncan always brings unique perspective. He cuts right to the chase, which I appreciate. right! So let's jump right in. Duncan starts by talking about inflation, which, let's face it, we've all been feeling the heat from this past year. Yeah, it's been a wild ride. Inflation hit a pretty brutal 9% last year. I think my grocery bills are still recovering. Oh yeah, tell me about it. But the latest number shows down to 2.5% that's both by the CPI and importantly, the PCE Price Index, right? And that PCE is the one the Fed really keeps their eye on, exactly, which is why I wanted to ask you about that. Why is the PCE like the golden child for the Fed, why not just stick with the CPI? Everyone knows that one. well, It's all about getting the most accurate picture of inflation. Think of it like this. The CPI is like taking a quick glance at prices. You know, just a snapshot in time. Okay with you, but the PCE, that's more like a movie. It captures how our spending habits change as prices change, and that gives the fed a better look at those underlying trends driving inflation. So it's like the CPI with a little bit of a crystal ball. It's trying to anticipate what's going to happen. It's got it okay? So inflation seems to be cooling down, which is good news, right?   Keith Weinhold  14:56 Gosh, that's just really good, a totally realistic sounding AI generated podcast just from some PDF files. The macro economist Richard Duncan uploaded remarkable and you know that the quality of that is only going to get better. That's probably about as bad as it's ever going to be right there. And in fact, in another 10 years, listeners could find it rather cute or quaint that we find this remarkable today. A big thanks to Richard Duncan for allowing us to play that and also expect Richard to be back here with us on the show again before the year ends, and here on the 10th anniversary week of the GRE podcast, you know, it makes me wonder how expendable my job as podcast host is going to be. I hope that I'm here with you in another 10 years, and I completely plan to be.  Well  episode number one of the get rich education podcast back from 2014 is called your abundance mindset. So it's apropos to visit a mindset topic today I'm going to do that with firebrand Speaker This week's guest, Garrett Gunderson. Here shortly, do you want to live a life that is small and safe and sheltered? I doubt that you really do, but you know, safe decision after safe decision, that's what most people end up doing. Do you want your kids to live a small, safe, sheltered life? I mean, most parents want safety for their children, but they're going to have an outsized impact on others when they study and then take the right risks. We're discussing those types of wealth creation mindsets with Garrett. He's a really talented guy. He was last with us six years ago. He's done some stand up comedy. Many have remarked that Garrett looks like Jesus Christ. He's the author of some popular books, including killing sacred cows. Let's talk to Garrett. This week's guest is a pretty well known author and speaker. He helps you make, keep and grow your money to help you live your best life. He's an especially dynamic speaker, public speaker, and I'm confident that you'll be able to hear that on the show today, because he has a great knowledge base, and he speaks with this conviction on topics that make him so compelling. Hey, it's been a few years. Welcome back to GRE Garrett Gunderson.   Garrett Gunderson  17:38 good to be back. I thought that was a very honest, like, pretty well known, like, I'm not really well known pretty well. That's just enough to annoy my wife. Like, I'll be going through an airport and someone come over and talk to me, and she's like, ah, but I love it, dude. I love conversations with people that I don't know, and I just get to meet because if they engage in my work, it gives us a chance to connect. And sometimes it makes me look cool to my kids, which is always a good thing. You know what I'm saying, like my son will be with me and someone say, hey, love killing sacred cows, or, Hey, are you that guy on YouTube? I'm like, it could be me, or you might be thinking, I'm Jesus. You know what I'm saying. I look familiar, though.   Keith Weinhold  18:14 Yeah. Now you can tell your kids that I said you are pretty well known. And you know, Garrett, you're also a really keen and perceptive person. You can tell if somebody's poor within 60 seconds of what they say. Tell us about that.   Garrett Gunderson  18:31 Oh, man, that video has so much hate. Man. I put that out like it was my son's filming, and I'm just sitting in our kitchen, and I was just thinking about a conversation I had earlier that day, and in the conversation, it was like, more about complaining about the world, saying that they couldn't afford things, saying they didn't have the time, blaming everyone for their situation. And I was like, man, it's pretty easy to tell. And 60 seconds, I mean, I guess maybe is a rash statement, because maybe it takes three minutes or 300 seconds, like five minutes, and get deep enough, but you just find that there's a certain language to poverty, and whether that's just poor in spirit, whether it's poor in mind, or whether it's poor in the bank account, typically it's devoid of personal responsibility. It's leading the levels of inspiration. And this isn't to say that if you're wealthy, that you only speak inspiring conversations. I mean, I complain sometimes that happens. I get frustrated. I get disappointed in myself for not being nicer to a customer service person and like, have to really manage that sometimes. But ultimately, it's this language that is almost like a Marxist type of language, you know, that comes from a place of like, I want this. I'm owed that we deserve this. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, like, who's going to produce that? And so it's something that's a fairly easy thing to detect with just a few questions. Like, if I'm given one question, I can tell in 60 seconds for sure.   Keith Weinhold  19:57 Yeah. I think a lot of times people start complaining. About something. People find money a scarce resource when they start, you know, complaining about gas prices or something like that, I think that's just really a classic one. It tells me where they're coming from. I mean, it tells me what their mind is occupying.   Garrett Gunderson  20:12 Right.  And if we're not excited about our future, if we're not developing our skill sets, if we're not really engaged in the world of value creation, it's easy to get frustrated about tax it's easier to get frustrated about inflation. It's easier to get complaining about interest rates or loan rates and all those kind of things. But what I find is the best way to outpace inflation is through skill set, and if we truly invest in ourselves and invest in other people so that we increase our quality of life and our enjoyment of it along the way, we increase all the skill sets that matter. You've mentioned that I'm a decent public speaker and that I'm articulate. That comes from going through writing courses and hiring speaking coaches and just getting the reps and doing comedy and the things that will help me to become a more effective communicator. And then it's really about becoming a better cash flow investor. I know that you teach people a lot around, you know, real estate and investing, and that's one of the big three assets in my mind, that helps people generate and create cash flow. But most people are trapped in this indoctrination where they set money aside and forget it. They wait for 30 years and hope for the best. They're very one dimensional of just paying off a loan and then hoping the retirement plan is going to get them there. And that's why they end up in this mindset where they're like, oh, I don't feel in control, because the outcome of my income is something that's dictated by the economy and not my own willpower, not my own skill set, not my own value creation. And I think that's why retirement is such a bad and faulty notion. My main statement in life is create the life you don't want to retire from. Now, I get it. In the industrial age, people need to retire because they were being worked to death and they weren't living for very long. It was an immensely valuable concept back then, a blue to collar world back then? Yeah, right. But in today's world, what if people just invested more time in selecting your career that mattered or had enough faith and took a leap on themselves to start becoming a better investor or start a business or be an entrepreneur where they get upside potential, instead of just begging for safety and security, instead of just wanting the entitlement of benefits, instead of just trading time for money, like that's an industrial age concept that we watched, whether it's our parents or grandparents, go through trading time for money, but we're in a world where that's not required any longer, because we do have technology, we do have artificial intelligence, we do have these things that are starting to displace The jobs that no one really wants to do because it beats down the body, and there's a lot of opportunity for those that are willing to grasp it and go for it, but it comes down to one key thing, value creation. And if we're going to be devoid of value creation, it's easy to tell in 60 seconds whether someone's poor because value creation was not part of their concept or their purview.   Keith Weinhold  22:40 And value creation is about expanding that upside. And a lot of poverty mindsets just complain about the downside their expenses. And you can't really do that much about your expenses. You can only lower them so much. Anytime you do, you're probably diminishing your quality of life anyway. And really, I think a lot of this mindset of lack Garrett comes back to the fact that, simply, most believe that money itself is a scarce resource. I probably believe that at one time, when I was younger, maybe you did too. And as I like to say, although I wasn't the first person that said it, the only place that you get money is from other people. So most people, which tend to be employees, think their way to increase their income is only if their employer gives them a raise, or maybe if they find a new employer that pays them maybe 10% more, or something like that. So they're limiting their upside over there because they think money's a scarce resource, because it's got to come from an employer. Somehow they're not thinking about, why don't you really expand your upside and start an Amazon business, or rent cars through Turo or Airbnb rentals, or what we do here at get risk education, help people with long term housing rentals. So it just kind of comes back to the fact that, you know, people's mind is closed off, and they just simply want to believe that money is a scarce resource.   Garrett Gunderson  23:57 They're adding to computer screens as we talk about this, you know, I mean, there's never been more money in the world than there is today. It's the most money there's ever been. We keep adding it. There's, you know, so much of it out there. But even if they stopped printing it, or they stopped adding it to balance sheets, there's an infinite number of times they can exchange hands. So if we use it to buy computers and clothes or food and shelter or entertainment like comedy and concerts, the more times money exchanges hands, the more values created. It's exchange that facilitates and creates wealth in the way that we create exchanges, serving others, solving problems and adding value. And here's the deal, we can have two parties do exchange with one another and both end up wealthier. It doesn't need to be a win, lose transaction. As a matter of fact, when people transact, they agree that what they bought was worth more than their money, or if they sold it, they agree that the money was more than what they sold. Otherwise they would have kept it. We don't do equal exchange. I wouldn't give you $1 for $1 right? There's no reason to exchange. It's unequal, which means, if you can provide something more efficiently than. I can for myself. I can pay you, which frees up my time to do what I most efficiently and effectively can do. I did triathlons because I was an idiot back in the day. Sorry for those triathletes, which is like a lot of work, man. And I don't love swimming, but I remember going to buy a triathlon bike. I just bought, like, a road bike. It was a big upgrade from having a huffy from Walmart, you know, like, oh, this $4,700 this is a while back, but it was carbon fiber. It was, like, amazing. And I thought, you know, I could never build this. So this $4,700 is actually really cheap, because I'm giving him $4,700 to build something that I can then go build something like write a book or do some consulting or do a speech that can inspire someone. And so that exchange was valuable. It's like if you bought killing cigarette cows. For me, you're saying that it was worth more than $20 I'm saying it was worth less because I already have the knowledge in my head, and so we both can end up wealthier. Unequal exchange is what facilitates wealth. What it lets us do is tap into our best abilities and tap into other people's best abilities. And that exchange ends up growing over time, and the more times money circulates because of Good Services and experiences, the more output there is. So look at today. Hundreds of years ago, if you wanted to listen to music, you had to hire a quartet. Now it's free for almost anyone, if you have any device of any sort, if you're willing to listen to a commercial here or there, you can listen to anything that you want. For the most part, you don't even have to pay for it. So think about that advancement. If you want to be anywhere in the world, you could be there in almost 24 hours or less, back in the day, that would have taken, you know, years for that matter. I mean, we have so much more wealth because we keep building upon previous wealth, previous ideas, and those blueprints we continue to grow from with new innovation and ingenuity. Therefore, the quality of life for someone that's middle class today is infinitely more than the middle class of hundreds of years ago, the amount of people that are hungry today versus years ago, even though we have more than 8 billion people on the planet, has gone down as a percentage, not up as a percentage. That's because of velocity and exchange. It's because of this notion that money's not scarce and resources have the way to be replenished, as long as we're stewards. Now, if the bison, if we kill too many of them, then they can't replenish, right? But if we manage that properly, you could actually eat the bison, use the skins, do all that kind of stuff, and still have that exist in the future. These people that don't believe in that believe that there's like a finite pie, that if one thing's gone, it's gone forever, not understanding value exchange, reproduction, apparently, and basic science either. And again, we can overdo those things and damage an ecosystem. So there is a balance.   Keith Weinhold  27:36 Yeah, that's right, when you talk about value creation, then you're really not talking about a person going out and trying to get their piece of the pie. Really more accurately what you're talking about. Here are ideas for expanding the entire pie.   Garrett Gunderson  27:51 Spam the pie. Expand your means you can budget and reduce. You said it eloquently. You said, Hey, there's only so much you can do in reduction of expenses before it just starts infringing and taking away from things that you value in life. There's a finite game there, but the expansion gain through co creation, through collaboration, instead of through competition, is absolutely an infinite pie that continues to grow as we add more value, as we serve more people, as we solve bigger problems, as we more deeply impact the people that we impact as we reach more people, these are things that can lead to more dollars. So I have this thing called the value equation. It's our mental capital, ideas, knowledge, wisdom, insights, strategies and tools multiplied by our relationship capital, people, networks, organizations, communities, friends, family, mentors, equals our financial capital. So financial capital is a byproduct of our stewardship of our mental and relationship capital. And the bridge between mental relationship capital is what we call business, or we call investing. So ultimately, Money Follows value. How do we add more value? Have a better idea. Impact more people. More more deeply. Impact the people you currently serve. Collaborate and offer more like it's an infinite pie and an infinite game. If we play it that way.  We're talking with speaker and author Garrett Gunderson, about the mindset of wealth creation. More. We come back with Garrett. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold.   Keith Weinhold  29:01 hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine at Ridge lending group NMLS, 42056, they've provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start Now while it's on your mind at ridgelendinggroup.com That's ridgelendinggroup.com. Your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings if your money isn't making 4% Percent, you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work. With minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest, year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor too. Earn 8% hundreds of others are text family 266, 866, learn more about freedom. Family investments, liquidity fund, on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text, family 266, 866,   Hal Elrod  30:54 this is Hal Elrod author of The Miracle Morning and listen to get it rich. Education with Keith Weinhold, and don't quit your Daydream.     Keith Weinhold  31:10 welcome back to get rich education. We're talking with firebrand speaker and author Garrett Gunderson. You can learn more about him at Garrettgunderson.com. Garrett before the break, we were talking about the mindset in opening up one in order to create more wealth over time. Here, a lot of times, one way we talk about that is, don't just get your money to work for you. Get other people's money to work for you. You could actually use other people's money ethically three ways at the same time, in real estate, using the tenant's money for the income stream the government's money for generous tax incentives, and then the bank's money for the leverage, which is actually a greater wealth building force than compound interest. That's one example of how we do that here. But when one has become successful, oftentimes they want to make sure that that's lasting. They want to build a legacy, something that they can carry on. And I know you articulate that through the Rockefeller method. So do you want to tell us more about that?   Garrett Gunderson  32:05 I wrote this book. What would the Rockefellers do back in 2016 this study between really wealthy families versus their wealth lasted, versus wealthy families that decimated it, and the best study was really the Vanderbilt because they had more money than the US Treasury. One the railroad family, yeah, transportation. And you know what? They destroyed that Cornelius died, and then his eldest son doubled the estate nine years and then he died, and that was the last time their estate grew. It started to decrease after that. And 54 years later, the first Vanderbilt died broke, and so the last Vanderbilt family union didn't have any millionaires at it. I know everybody knows about like Vanderbilt University. They donated like, a million dollars to get that started. But, you know, that was pretty inconsequential compared to their overall net worth. But they didn't have a formula or format to create sustainable wealth. They own 10 mansions in in Manhattan. They don't own those anymore. They own the breakers in Rhode Island. The state of Rhode Island owns that now. So they lost this massive amount of wealth where the Rockefellers are just entering their seventh generation of passing on, well, seven generations, wow. And people that worked for the rock bellers, like the executives, they're still passing on, well, for this generation after generation. And most people don't make it past the third generation. And we could look at, you know, people like Walt Disney. We could look at people like JCPenney. We could look at people, you know, like the the Kennedy family and so many others that have used these two things to really create sustainable wealth. Number one is they use trust. The Rockefellers coined the term own nothing and control everything, whether that's a revocable living trust for people who are just starting out and don't have a substantial amount of wealth, or a domestic asset protection trust for those that have a decent amount of wealth, those are the two main popular ones. There are some offshore trusts. It gets onerous and complicated once you go offshore, but it does protect your assets. The second piece is using whole life insurance, so they have this death benefit that's on the insured, and they put that on their heirs, so that every time an heir dies, it replenishes the trust, and potentially even grows it, because there's these threats to the family wealth, there's taxes, there's inflation, there's interest rate fluctuations or market, you know, economic turmoil. So what they're doing is they're creating that level of stability, and they give them preferred interest rates to borrow from the trust versus a bank. So now your family can actually earn interest instead of paying interest. And yes, if your family is paying interest, they're paying it back to their future generation at Preferred rates. And so you could be one generation away from never needing a bank again and actually being able to capitalize on deals a whole lot faster. Specifically, we use whole life, because it transfers the risk to the insurance company. There's six or seven companies that are participating, mutual companies that have been around for over 150 years, always paid dividends. It protects your cash value from taxes. It protects it from liability and bankruptcy in over 40 states, fully and partially in every state. So what happens is, for an asset allocation decision. You can start moving some of your fixed income portfolio to this and have a better, more robust benefits type of situation, and then actually start to implement this Rockefeller method so that you can create generational wealth.   Keith Weinhold  35:12 All right, so the Rockefeller method using trusts and whole life insurance to preserve and grow your wealth, so as one's building their portfolio, amassing wealth, increasing income streams as they go along in their investor journey. Is there anything that they should keep in mind as they try to integrate some of these things from the Rockefellers?   Garrett Gunderson  35:12 Yeah, a lot of other insurance people try to sell these index universal life policies, but those won't work because they have too many levers of risk, and especially when you're building cash value, you might use that cash value to buy real estate. Then you might use the rental income to put the money back into the policy so you can buy more real estate in the future. So it becomes like a medium storage shed or unit for your cash that's protected, but now it comes with the death benefit, which, here's one example, for a real estate investor, instead of just, you know, rolling it over to the next property and rolling it over to the next property when you eventually sell, you can use a charitable trust. And a charitable trust, you can donate that highly appreciated piece of real estate, get a partial tax deduction, sell it and fund the trust and pay zero tax on your gains. No matter what your basis is, there's no tax on the gains. You're the first beneficiary of the trust, meaning you can take an income between 5% and 50% from the trust while you're alive, depending on the underlying assets, and then when you die, the charity keeps whatever's left over. But if you have a life insurance policy that will replenish what that donation was, therefore giving you 20 30% or more increased cash flow with an asset by making a synergistic allocation. Now, that's a lot of information in a short period of time, but it's more about planting seeds. And don't worry, I'll give everybody a copy of the book at no charge, so they can kind of read it at their own pace, or you can listen to it at their own pace, versus me condensing it into just a couple minutes.   Keith Weinhold  36:56 Oh, thanks. All right, well, we'll learn more about that resource at the end that sounds like that can be really helpful to a lot of people. And I guess Garrett, even though you're not as real estate ish as me, as we wind down here, you know, I think the place that you and I find the most common ground is we often say and help people with the things that sort of fly in the face of conventional guidance. I mean, you really just don't have to think about it that much more than if you just do normal stuff, average, mediocre stuff, you're only going to have a normal, average, mediocre outcome. So can you tell us about any last things that can help get people thinking differently and debunk some of this conventional guidance that really will never help get you much above lower middle class?   Garrett Gunderson  37:40 Yeah, if you're putting your money in mutual funds and ETFs, you're making a bunch of other people money. I mean, the big three is you want to focus on generating cash flow so you can create financial independence. Because if you have enough cash flow from assets to cover your expenses, every active dollar can build more assets. That's an exponential benefit to you. So now that you don't have to be forced to work, you've got a lot more freedom. And the big three for me are real estate businesses or intellectual property, which is kind of, you know, something that is part of business to a degree, but I consider a different asset class. Those are the big three. I have no money in the stock market. I have money in my businesses. I invest in myself. I invest in my vision. I invest in a team, instead of investing in things that I have no control over and I don't get cash flow from and that the economy can change, or that Wall Street's making money on whether I make money or not. So that's just one notion that I think we could probably, you know, agree, flies in the face of what everybody's teaching. That's the masses. But when you look at the wealthiest people, it's how they're implementing and what they're doing.   Keith Weinhold  38:39 And I think another place that conventional guidance really tells people to prioritize is paying down debt or paying off debt. I mean, making your debt free scream at age 34 you know, maybe that's not so bad, but maybe not. I mean, did paying down low to moderate interest rate debt and making that priority sacrifice your lifestyle and your family's lifestyle the entire time while you were doing it, and did it have a steeper opportunity cost, because you were not investing those dollars in things that can earn a greater return than their interest rates were they're using some of the vehicles that you talked about. So, you know, I guess what I'm getting at Garrett philosophically, one way I said it, is that the risk of delayed gratification is denied gratification?   Garrett Gunderson  39:23 Yeah, I mean, if we become sacrifice, how do we ever overcome that habit? I'm I'm scrimping, I'm sacrificing, yeah, I'm deferring. And then one day, what you're supposed to flip the switch be like, Okay, now I'm abundant. I'm gonna enjoy this money that doesn't happen. So that habitual notion of reduce, cut, eliminate, no one shrinks their way to wealth. It's a game of expansion and production. Yes, be efficient, be intelligent, be a steward, but don't become a miser, because misers, no matter how much money they have, never get to feel what it's like to live their richest life. It's always about elimination. Instead of enjoyment and utilization.   Keith Weinhold  40:02 Oh, that is just beautifully stated. I really can't say it any better than that, and that really brings it back full circle as to the best personal finance is probably growing your means rather than practicing living below your means for decades, and then you'll never get that time back. Well, Garrett, you've generated so many good educational resources. Why you've been the successful author and speaker. Tell us more about that.   Garrett Gunderson  40:26 Garrettgunderson.com is where a lot of those resources are. I write a blog like it's 2006 because I love to write and just get information out there. I've created a money persona quiz. So if you go forward slash tools on Garrettgunderson.com you can figure out what's the success or sabotage that happens subconsciously with how you deal with money. It's very informative and useful. I've written 10 books. I offered that if people DM me on Instagram, Garrett B, Gunderson, two R's, two T's, middle initial B and just say, Keith, get rich. Keith get rich. So I know it was on this program, I'll hook you up with the audio and a PDF of the book on me, so that you can hopefully just understand this Rockefeller method and improve your life and start building a legacy right now. Because if you're already doing real estate, that's great, let's make sure to preserve, protect and even perpetuate that wealth with some of the structures that could be integrated.   Keith Weinhold  41:17 Well Garrett, yeah, you have a lot of great resources and just a really wide spectrum of understanding of concepts all across a personal finance field. Is there any last thing you'd like to let our audience know about?   Garrett Gunderson  41:28 Just create the life you don't want to retire from. Design a life that you love. Create enough cash flow from assets to have that economic independence so you have choice and freedom daily of what you do and swing for the fences in that purpose, you know, that's probably the best advice that I could give.   Keith Weinhold  41:43 Why would you want to live your life any other way? Garrett Gunderson, it's been valuable as expected. Thanks so much for coming on to the show.   Garrett Gunderson  41:51 Thanks for having me.   Keith Weinhold  41:58 Yeah, a lot on both mindset and long term wealth preservation with Garrett Gunderson today, now, 15 weeks ago, on episode 507 you'll remember that episode called compound interest is weak, where I made a takedown about how compound Interest actually is not serving people. Leverage does serve people. Garrett also makes a takedown and critiques this myth about how people think compound interest builds wealth. A little review. There some comprehension from 15 weeks ago, compound interest has most people counting on the average annual return when they should be focused on the compound annual growth rate. A little review. Remember the average annual return means if you're up 10% one year and then down 10% next year that you broke even. That's the arithmetic thing. But that is a lie. The reality is in this CAGR, the compound annual growth rate, it reflects, if you're up 10% one year and then down 10% the next year, you're at minus 1% the geometric thing. And that's the reality, and that makes a retirement lifestyles worth of difference, and a retirement ages worth of difference like I thoroughly broke down for you in episode 507 coming up on the show here in future weeks, a familiar name like Tom wheelwright returns, and then new guests, like a former NFL player here on the show, if you want to reach out to Garrett Gunderson on Instagram for his best free resources, even the audio and pdf of his Rockefeller method of generational wealth preservation, again on Instagram, you can DM him at Garrett B Gunderson, he let me know later, all you have to do is send him my first name, Keith, and he will hook you up there. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, and I am supremely grateful and even in awe of your devoted listenership for an entire decade of your life and mine, here's to another 10 years. Don't quit your Daydream.   44:21 Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively,   Keith Weinhold  44:49 The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth. Building, get rich, education.com, you.

President of the Mises Institute and author of “How Capitalism Saved America”, Dr. Thomas DiLorenzo joins us to uncover the current state of capitalism and if it still exists in America. Earlier in the episode, Keith discusses the inaccuracy of economic predictions, citing examples like the 2023 recession that never happened, the negative impact of misinformed predictions on investment decisions and business growth.  Persistent housing price crash predictions have been consistently wrong despite global pandemics and higher mortgage rates. Dr. DiLorenzo advocates for #EndTheFed to reduce inflation and restore free market principles. Learn how voluntary exchange between buyer and seller through market prices communicates information and influences production. Resources: Learn more about Austrian economics and Ludwig von Mises through visiting mises.org  Show Notes: GetRichEducation.com/521 For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 For advertising inquiries, visit: GetRichEducation.com/ad Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREmarketplace.com/Coach Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Complete episode transcript:   Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai     Keith Weinhold  00:00 Keith, welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, reviewing some terrible economic predictions and why it matters to you. Then the President of the Mises Institute joins us. Does capitalism still exist in the US and what would happen if we ended the Fed, today on get rich education.   00:24 Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, who delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show. Guess who? Top Selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast, or visit getricheducation.com   Corey Coates  01:09 You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.   Keith Weinhold  01:25 welcome to GRE from Syracuse, Sicily to Syracuse, New York, and across 188 nations worldwide, you're listening to one of the longest running and most listened to shows on real estate investing. This is Get Rich Education. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, now a lot of media companies and pundits and influencers like to make predictions. Listeners like learning about predictions and by engaging just a little of that each of the past few years on one of the last episodes of the year. Here, I forecast the national home price appreciation rate for the following year, many media outlets, pundits and influencers have made terrible, just absolutely terrible, predictions about interest rates and other financial forecasts. Last year, a majority of Pro prognosticators firmly forecast six or eight Fed rate cuts this year, for example, well, we're going to have far fewer, and that's because high inflation kept hanging around. Then there's the 2023 recession that never happened, yet both Bloomberg and the economist actually published some rather ignominious headlines, as it turned out, they published these in the fall of 2022 Bloomberg, big headline was forecast for us, recession within year hits 100% in blow to Biden, well, That was false. That didn't come true. I mean, 100% that doesn't leave you any room for an out. And then also published in the fall of 2022 The Economist ran this headline why a global recession is inevitable in 2023 All right, well, they both believed in a recession, and they believed in it so deeply that it got fossilized. Well, an economic archeologist like me dug it up.   Dr Thomas DiLorenzo  03:31 We are going to die   Keith Weinhold  03:35 well, but I didn't risk my life like Indiana Jones did there. This archeology, it only involves some Google searches. Well, here's the thing. What's remarkable about America staving off a mammoth recession and leaving all the other g7 nations in the economic dust is the fact that merely predicting a recession often makes it come true. Just predicting one often turns a recession into a self fulfilling prophecy. Yeah, recession forecast headlines alone, they can spook employers from making new hires and slow down manufacturing, and it can also disillusion real estate investors from expanding their portfolios. Well, the US economy grew anyway, besides the farcical prognostications about myriad interest rate cuts in a quote, unquote definite 2023 recession that never happened. You know, there's also a third forecast that so many got wrong. And you probably know what I'm gonna say. I've brought it up before, because this hits our world, those erstwhile and well still ever present housing price crash predictions. I mean this facet of the gloom boom really ramped up from 2020 One until today, even a global pandemic, new wars and a triplicate mortgage rates couldn't stop the housing price surge and the rent surge. A lot of doomsdayers just couldn't see, or they didn't even want to see that a housing shortage would keep prices afloat. They didn't want to see it because they get more clicks when they talk about the gloom government stimulus programs also buoyed prices, and deep homeowner equity cushions will still keep prices afloat. Ever since 2021 here on the show, I've used that rationale and more to explain that home prices would keep appreciating, but that the rate of appreciation would slow down, and it has slowed down since 2021 see YouTubers tick tockers. They notoriously use woe begone housing crash headlines, because that gets more clicks and then some of the rationale behind this. The reasoning is just dreadful, like, what goes up must come down, all right? Well, this is like, why does it matter? Who cares about wrong predictions anyway? What's the point? Well, people become misinformed. People waste their time on these things and see no one loses money on dismal economic predictions. But the damage is done, because when investors don't act well, then they didn't get the gain that they should have had. Businesses didn't get the gain that they should have had when they could have made new investment and hired new employees sooner. And of course, a recession is going to happen sometime. They occur, on average, every five to six years. It is just a normal part of the business cycle will collectively these three faulty economic predictions, rate cuts, a recession and a housing price crash. I think if you bundle them all up combined, it could be as bad as one doomsday prediction about worldwide starvation or the Mayan apocalypse. Remember that the wide to K bug, the acid rain, even that the internet is just a fad that ran a buck 30 years ago. World War Three is eminent, robots overtaking humans, or how about running out of crude oil. I mean, we're definitely all supposed to have jet packs in flying cars by now, right? But yet, did anyone have the clairvoyance to predict the stock market crash of 1929 or September 11 terrorist attacks, or Trump's surprise, 2016 presidency or Bitcoin hitting 70k A while back, or the coronavirus. So really, overall, the bottom line here with predictions is that no one knows the future. Control what you can maintain equanimity, add good properties, gradually raise rent, reduce expenses, create leverage and expect inflation truly the best way to predict the future is to create it in just that way. Well is the USA capitalistic nation today. That's what we'll discuss later with this week's guest. When Chuck Todd hosted the show Meet the Press, he interviewed AOC about this. Yes, I'm talking about us. House Rep from New York, Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, what she say? You   08:34 have said you are democratic socialist. Can you be a Democratic socialist and a capitalist? Well, I think it depends on your interpretation. So there are some Democratic socialists that would say, Absolutely not. There are other people that are democratic socialists that would say, I think it's possible. What are you? I think it's possible. I think you say to yourself, I'm a capitalist, but I don't say that. You know, if anything, I would say, I'm I believe in a democratic economy, but.   Keith Weinhold  09:03 okay, well, I'm not sure if that clears it up at all. And I've listened to more of that clip, and it just makes things more confusing. But I think that most people have trouble drawing a line between capitalism and neighboring economic systems. Where exactly do you draw that line? I don't know exactly where to draw it. When I think of capitalism, I think of things though, like removal of interventionist central planning and allowing the free market to run with few guardrails. And then there's an issue like labor unionization. I don't really know about something like that. This is a real estate show. I'm still forming an opinion on a topic like that. In you know, some of this gets political, and that's beyond the scope of get rich education. The Fed was created in 1913 that central planning, its central banking from 1987 to. 2006 Alan Greenspan reigned as Fed chair. Those were his years, and he became even more interventionist. And then his successor, Ben Bernanke, maybe even more so with quantitative easing and such. Let's talk about, should they end the Fed and capitalism with this week's expert guest. You very well may have heard of the late, famed Austrian American economist Ludwig von Mises today, the Mises Institute carries on his legacy, and this week's guest is none other than the President of the Mises Institute. He's also the number one best selling author of how capitalism saved America and his newer book with a title that I love, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Economics. Hey, it's great to have you here. It is. Dr Thomas DiLorenzo.   Dr Thomas DiLorenzo  11:00 pleased to be with you. Thanks for having me.Th   Keith Weinhold  11:02 Well, Dr DiLorenzo, for those that don't know, just tell us a bit in an overview about Austrian economics and what Ludwig von Mises stood for.   Dr Thomas DiLorenzo  11:02 Well, Ludwig von Mises was the preeminent critic of socialism and fascism in Europe, and in his day, he fled the Nazis literally hours before the Gestapo broke into his apartment in Geneva, because he was the preeminent critic of fascism and socialism, and he was also Jewish, and so he had to get out of town. And he miraculously ended up after wandering through Europe with his wife in New York City, and he taught at New York University for many years, until he died in 1973 and but the Austrian School of Economics is a school of thought. It has nothing to do with, necessarily, with the Government of Austria, the country of Austria, just this the founder of a man named Carl Menger happened to be from Austria, but probably the most famous or well known among Americans would be Friedrich Hayek, who won the Nobel Prize in 1970s he was a student of Ludwig von Mises and critics of interventionism, critics of socialism. We teach about free markets, of how markets actually work and how governments don't work. And that's in a nutshell, that's what it's about. And you could check out our website, mises.org, M, I, S, E, S.org, you can get a great economic education. We have a lot of free books to download. Some of them are downloaded 30 or 40,000 times a month. Still, it's even Mises old books like human action, first published in the 1960s and so you can get a great education just by reading our website.   Keith Weinhold  12:42 Well, congratulations, that's proof that you're doing an excellent job of carrying on the Mises legacy into the present day, a lot of which is championing capitalism. Do we have capitalism in the United States today?   Dr Thomas DiLorenzo  12:59 I was an economics professor from 40 years before I got this job as President of the Mises Institute. And I used to say we had islands of socialism in a sea of capitalism at the beginning of my career. But now I'd say it's the opposite, that we have islands of capitalism in a sea of socialism. And socialism, this data is not defined anymore as government ownership. That was, you know, about 100 years ago, the socialism. It's basically government control of industry and in addition to government ownership. So the instruments of the welfare state, the income tax and the regulatory state, is our version of socialism, or central planning, if you will. And it's the Federal Reserve the Fed, which is a government agency that orchestrates the whole thing, really, it's a big, massive central planning industry that controls, regulates basically every aspect of any kind of financial transaction imaginable. They list in their publications over 100 different functions of the Federal Reserve. It's not just monetary policy. It's a big regulatory behemoth, and so that's that's what the Fed is. That's what I think we have today. A friend of mine, Robert Higgs, a well known economic historian, says our system is what he calls participatory fascism. And fascism was a system where private enterprise was permitted, but it was so heavily regulated and regimented by the government that industry had to do what government wanted to do, not what its customers wanted it to do, so much, and a large part of our economic system is just like that, and we get to vote still, so that's where the participatory and comes in, and the pin of Robert Hinz.   Keith Weinhold  14:41 yeah, maybe at best, I can think of today's system as capitalism with guardrails on but the guardrails keep getting taller. And I think of guardrails as being, for example, regulatory agencies like the Fed in FINRA. In the FDA.   Dr Thomas DiLorenzo  15:01 It is the beginning of my career. You know, I studied economics and a PhD in economics, and there was a big literature on what's called regulatory capture. And it was sort of a big secret among US economic academics. There was all this research going on and how the big regulatory agencies created by the federal government in the late 19th, early 20th centuries, were captured by the industries that they were supposed to be regulating. Right? The theory was they would regulate these industries in the public's best interests. But what has happened from the very beginning is they were captured by the industries, and they benefit the industry at the expense of the public. But today, that's caught on thanks to people like Robert Kennedy Jr, frankly, has been a very popular author. He sold a gazillion copies of his book on Anthony Fauci, and in it, he explains in tremendous detail how the Food and Drug Administration was long ago captured by the pharmaceutical companies. And he's not the only one. I think that that is being more and more recognized by people outside of academic economics, like me, and that's a good thing, and that's sort of the worst example of crony capitalism. It's not real capitalism, but crony capitalism making money through government connections, rather than producing better products, cheaper products and so forth.   Keith Weinhold  16:21 I watched RFK Jr speak in person recently, and I was actually disappointed when he effectively dropped out of the upcoming presidential race. And I do want to talk more with you about the Fed shortly, but with all these regulatory agencies and how I liken them to guard rails. You know, I sort of think of it as a watchdog system that's failing. You mentioned the FDA. I know RFK Jr brought them up an awful lot, the Food and Drug Administration that are supposed to help regulate what we put inside our own bodies in our diet. But these systems are failing. We have regulatory agencies in industry, industry in regulatory agencies. I mean, look at the obesity rate. Look at all the ultra processed food that's allowed. Look at all the seed oils that are allowed in food that people actually think are healthy for them. So this system of capitalism with guardrails is failing almost everywhere you look.   Dr Thomas DiLorenzo  16:22 I wouldn't call it capitalism. I wouldn't use the word capitalism at all, other than crony capitalism, people can relate to that. You know, a lot of these regulatory agencies were lobbied for in the first place by industry. That while the very first one was the Interstate Commerce Commission, it was in the 1880s it was meant to regulate the railroad companies. The first president was the president of a Railroad Corporation, the head of the Interstate Commerce Commission. So talk about the fox guarding the hen house. That was from the very beginning. And so in a sense, this word capture theory of regulation, which Kennedy has used, they weren't really captured. They always were created by the government. The same is true of all the so called Public Utilities. It was the corporations, the electric power companies, the water supply companies, that lobbied for governments to give them a monopoly, a legal monopoly, in electricity, water supply and all these things that were called natural monopolies, but there was nothing natural about them. There was vigorous competition in the early 20th century in telephone, electricity, water supply, and that was all set aside by government regulation, creating monopolies. For example, in electric power, there's an economist named Walter primo who wrote a book some years ago showing that always have been several dozen cities in America that never went this way, that always allowed direct competition between electric power companies. And what do you know, better service and lower prices. As a result, they did dozens of statistical studies to demonstrate this in his book.   Keith Weinhold  18:58 Okay, well, that's a great case study. Why don't we talk about what things would look like if we took down one of these agencies? We're a real estate investing in finance show. Sometimes it's a popular meme or hashtag to say, end the Fed. What would it look like if we ended the Fed?   Dr Thomas DiLorenzo  19:18 Well, the Fed was created in 1913 in the same era, with all these other regulatory captured agencies were created, right? And it was created basically to cartelize and create a cartel for the banking industry to make it almost impossible to go bankrupt. They've been bailing out foolish bankers for 111 years. And of course, the biggest example was that as the crash of 08 after they they handed Goldman Sachs and other big investment banks billions of dollars. That was a direct assault on capitalism itself, because capitalism, as you know, is a profit and loss system. It's not a I keep the profits. You pay for my losses system. You're the taxpayer. But that's what happened with that. So the Fed would. Fall into that the Fed is actually the fourth central bank in America. We had three other ones. First one was called Bank of North America. Its currency was so unreliable, nobody trusted it went out of business in a year and a half. And then we created something called the Bank of the United States in 1791 same thing. It created boom and bust cycles, high unemployment, price inflation, corrupted politics. It was defunded after 20 years, and then it was brought back to fund the debt from the war of 1812 and so we had a Second Bank of the United States. It did the same thing, boom and bust cycles, price inflation, corrupted politics. Benefited special interest, but not the general interest, and President Andrew Jackson defunded it, and so we went without a central bank from roughly 1840 until 1913 so we've had experience of that. And what we had been was competing currencies, and that would be sort of a stepping stone. If we got rid of the fed, we wouldn't have to abolish the Fed altogether. We could amend the charter to the Fed to say you're no longer permitted to buy bonds. Can't buy government bonds anymore. That's how they inflate the money supply, right? By buying bonds. That's totally unnecessary. And we could just just that would be a great step forward, and we would sort of whittle away our $80 trillion debt, if you count again upon count the unfunded liabilities of the federal government,   Keith Weinhold  21:26 if we did end the Fed, what would the price of money? Which are interest rates really look like? Would a new market rate be sent by individuals and companies on the free market like Bank of America, with a customer or borrower settling on an interest rate that they both agree to.   Dr Thomas DiLorenzo  21:44 You know, the Fed uses sort of Soviet style economics, price control. The economists and are all getting all over Kamala Harris for recommendations for price controls on rent and other things. Well, the Fed price control. They control the price of money. That's what they do. And so there's a big, kind of a comical thing that here you have all these economists, if they were to teach economics in the week one, they would teach about the bad effects of price controls, and then they get a job at the Fed, and they spend their whole career enforcing price controls on money, and the interest rate would be determined by supply and demand for credit and inflationary expectations. That's what the market does. And you wouldn't have these bureaucrats at the Fed tinkering around with interest rates, creating tremendous arbitrage opportunities for Wall Street investors. With all the movements and interest rates, you'd have much more stable interest rates, and and you wouldn't have this ridiculous system where the Fed says we need to always have forever at least 2% inflation. And of course, they never meet that, and they lie about it. I don't believe for one minute that the price inflation right now is 3% or under 3% that's ridiculous, right? And so things should be getting cheaper. Everything should be getting cheaper because of all the technology we have. My first PC I bought in the early 80s for $4,000 and it was a piece of prehistoric junk compared to my cell phone today, that almost for free. Almost everything should be like that agriculture, but the reason it isn't is the Fed keeps pumping so much money in circulation, that it pumps up the demand for goods and services, and that's what creates price inflation. And by its own admission, that's what it does, even though it's charter, it's original charter said they're supposed to fight inflation. All of a sudden, about 10 years ago or so, they announced, south of blue, we always have to have at least 2% inflation. Congress had nothing to do with that. President had nothing to do with that, and the people of America had nothing to do with that. It was dictators like Alan Greenspan and Ben Bernanke that just make these announcements. And where does that come from when we live under the dictatorship of the Fed? And of course, the people who are hurt the most by the Fed are elderly people are living on relatively fixed incomes and are forced to become Wall Street speculators they want to make any more money other than their fixed income, where, you know, during the days of Greenspan, when they're pursuing zero interest rates, maybe the mortgage industry like that, but the people on retirement income were starving as a result of that. So it's been sort of an economic war on the retired population.   Keith Weinhold  24:24 Things should get faster and cheaper to produce, like you said. However, there's definitely one thing that's not getting faster to produce, that's housing build times. Housing build times have actually gone up, which is sort of another discussion unto itself. But we talk about the Fed and then setting prices. People wouldn't stand for setting the price or having price controls on oil or lumber or bananas, but yet we set the price of money itself. People have just become accustomed to that. Yet it's that money itself that we use to buy oil and lumber and bananas the fed with that dual mandate of stable prices and maximum employment. If we did abolish the Fed, what would happen to the rate of inflation?   Dr Thomas DiLorenzo  25:12 Well, we would have less inflation. It's supposed to what we replace it with. There's some system would be a replacement, but we wouldn't have the boom and bust cycles that we have now. There's been research in the past 100 years or so of the Fed, and what the academic researchers have concluded is that the Fed has made the economy in general more unstable than it was before we had the Fed and price inflation. That's a joke. The dollar is worth maybe three cents of what it was in the year 1913 right when the Fed was created. So it has failed on all accounts. And so if we got rid of it, we would reverse that. The idea would be to start out with a competing money system. And I'll tell you a quick story is, you know the word Dixie from the south, you know land of Dixie that was named after a currency by a New Orleans bank called the Dix D, I x 10 in French, and it was 100% gold reserve. It was backed by something real and valuable, and it was so popular as even used in Minnesota. But that's why the whole south, the states in the South, were using this currency, because it was so reliable. But during the Civil War, the national currency acts imposed taxes on the competing currencies and taxed them out of business and established the greenback dollar, as it was called, as the Monopoly money of the country. We didn't get a central bank during the Civil War, but we got that. And so that's the kind of system that we would have. Friedrich Hayek wrote a whole book about this, about competing currencies, called the denationalization of money. He poses that as a good stepping stone to a freer market in money. And like you said, Money is the most important thing. Is most more important than bananas or shoes or any of these other things that we might have price controls on.   Keith Weinhold  27:01 All right, so we're talking about the case for ending the Fed. What is the counter argument? I mean, other than the government wanting control, is there a valid, or any academic counter argument for keeping the Fed in place?   Dr Thomas DiLorenzo  27:16 The Fed has an army. I call it the Fed's Praetorian Guard of academics. There was a research article published by an economist named Larry White at George Mason University several years ago, and he found that 75% of all the articles in the academic journals regarding money, monetary policy and so forth, are by people who are basically paid by the Fed, one way or the other. Either they're fed economists, or they've been invited to a conference by the Fed, or they're an intern some relationship with the Fed. The late Milton Friedman once said, If you want a career as a monetary economist, it's not a good idea to criticize the biggest employer in your field. So there's a lot of nonsense about that. And so yes, you'll have all sorts of rationales, but it basically comes down to this, that we think we can do central planning better than the Russians did under communism, because the Fed is basically an economic central planning agency, and there's no reason to believe Americans are better at it than the Russians or anybody else. And it basically comes down to that, you know, studying the past 111 years that's showing Well, yeah, they've been trying that for 111 years. They've made the economy more unstable, and they have failed miserably to control inflation. And why should we give them another chance? Why should we continue along this road? We shouldn't So, yeah, there'll be all kind of excuses the late Murray Rothbard, who was one of the founders of the Mises, who once answered this question by saying, It's as though people said, Well, say the government always made shoes. 100 years ago they took over the shoe industry. People would be saying, who will make shoes if the government doesn't make shoes? The government has always made shoes, right? But the government has not always monopolized the money supply. It's only like I said, we abolished three Feds in our history. In American history, they weren't called the Fed, but they were central banks. And the Fed is called a central bank, and we've done that three times. We've abolished more central banks than we have kept in American history.   Keith Weinhold  29:17  We're talking with Dr Thomas D Lorenzo. He is the president of the Mises Institute. About, is there really any capitalism left more when we come back, this is Get Rich Education. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold,  hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge lending group and MLS 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation, because they specialize in income properties, they help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start now while it's on your mind at RidgeLendingGroup.com, that's Ridgelendinggroup.com. Your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings. If your money isn't making 4% you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor too. Earn 8% hundreds of others are text family to 66866, learn more about freedom. Family investments, liquidity fund on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text, family to 66866.   Kristen Tate  31:11 This is author Kristen Tate. Listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Weinhold, and Don't quit Your Daydream.   Keith Weinhold  31:27 welcome back to get rich education. We're talking with Dr Thomas DiLorenzo. He is the president of the Mises Institute. You can learn more about them @mises.org and Dr DiLorenzo. Frederick Hayek, an economist that you mentioned very well known and a student of Ludwig von Mises, he believed that prices are a communication mechanism between a buyer and a seller. Say, for example, there's a new style of single family rental home that everyone wants to rent. So therefore the rent price goes up when other builders see that the rent price goes up, that brings in more builder competition, and with more competition, that brings rent prices down, and then the world is filled with abundant housing, rather than a scarcity of housing. So that's how I think of a free market system within capitalism as working, as defined through Hayek.   Dr Thomas DiLorenzo  32:22 You know, the consumer is king. Von Mises once wrote about the same point where he said that people mistakenly believe that it's the bankers and the CEOs and the businesses that control what gets produced and so forth, but it's really the consumer. You build a housing development then people don't want those houses. You'll find out real fast who's in charge. It's not the mortgage brokers. It's not the bankers. It's not you, it's the consumer. That's the free market system, and if you do without it, and not using the free market system, whether it's for money or anything else, is kind of like trying to find your way around a strange city with no street signs, and the prices are the street signs that tell us what to do, exactly like you said, if there's strong demand for a certain type of housing, that'll drive the price up, and that'll tell the home builders, we can make money building more of these. And they will do that. Nobody tells them. The Chairman of the Fed doesn't have to tell them that the President doesn't have to tell them that Congress doesn't have to issue a declaration telling them to do that. That was the Soviet Union where they tried that. And that's the great thing about the market, is that the consumer can tell the richest man in the world like Elon Musk, go play in the traffic. Elon Musk, if they don't like his cars or whatever he's producing, even though he's the richest man in the world. And he understands that he's a pretty successful businessman, I would say, and so so he understands that the consumer is his boss.   Keith Weinhold  33:53 Well, what else do we need to know? You have published a lot of celebrated books, from how capitalism saved America to the politically incorrect guide to economics. What else might a real estate investor or an economic enthusiast need to know today? Oh,   Dr Thomas DiLorenzo  34:10 well, I think everybody needs to be their own economist. You can listen to the talking heads on TV and on podcasts and all that, but educate yourself and become your own economist. Because a lot of the people on TV, as you might see on the news, they have an ax to grind, or they have a sort of a hidden financial interest beyond what they're saying, Be your own economist. And that's why I'm selling my website, which is everything on it, it's for free, mises.org, and there are quite a few others too. You don't have to go to school, you don't have to get a degree. You can get a good economic education, for example, on money. We're in the middle of giving away 100,000 copies of a book called What has government done to our money. I'm Murray rothbar. You go to our website, scroll down to the bottom, and you can fill out a form online, and we'll send you free books and. You can educate yourself that way. And so just in general, I think that's what people need to do. I taught MBA students for many years who are people in their 30s or maybe even early 40s, who didn't have economics degrees, but they were really into it, and for the first time in their careers, they decided maybe I should understand how the economic world that I live in and work in every day operates rather than going through your life and your career without you. Might know all about real estate sales, but it's also useful to know about the economy in general and how things work.   Keith Weinhold  35:35 And when one becomes their own economic student and they take that on, I think it's important for them, like you touched on to not just consume the economic news that's on CNBC or other major media, because that doesn't really tell you how to create wealth. It might inform you, but it doesn't necessarily tell you how to take action. For example, on this show an educational channel, you might learn about a story about rising inflation like we had starting three or four years ago. And here we talk about how, okay, if inflation is going to be a long term economic force, you may or may not like what the Fed is doing, but rather than save money, borrow money, outsource that debt service to the tenant on a cash flowing asset like a single family home or an apartment building. And that inflation that you're learning about on CNBC will actually benefit you and debase your debt with prudent leverage on a property, for example, so not just consuming the news, but learning and educating yourself and acting.   Dr Thomas DiLorenzo  36:34 Oh, sure, well It just so happens that last night, I was talking to a friend of mine who's a real estate professional. They're all talking about, Oh, are we going to have a slight drop in interest rates? And I reminded them that there will be a part of the market if they see it, if we do have a slight drop in interest rates, we'll look at that and say, well, maybe this is a new trend. And so I'll sit back and I'll wait. I'm not going to buy now, because I think the interest rates are going to go down even further in the next six months there were, there would be some segment of the market that thinks that way. And so that's just one little thing. Another thing I would mention is that one of the basic tenets of free market economics is that voluntary trade is mutually beneficial. People buy and sell from each other, because both sides benefit. And that's very important for any business person to keep in mind as you structure business deals, because you know about business deal that is successful is basically, I will give you what you want, and you give me what I want, and we're both happy. And that's that's one of the main tenets of how the market works. Voluntary exchange is mutually beneficial. So think about how to make it mutually beneficial, and you'll succeed in making a deal.   Keith Weinhold  37:45 Well, it's been an excellent discussion on Is there any capitalism left, and how would it look like if we turned the course and created more capitalism here in the United States? It's been great having you on the show.   Dr Thomas DiLorenzo  37:58 Thank you.   Keith Weinhold  38:05 Yeah , again, Learn more @mises.org or look up books by Dr Thomas DiLorenzo. His viewpoint is that there are now merely islands of capitalism in a sea of socialism where those conditions were inverted last century. We've got to end the complex between the government and corporations that these watchdogs are basically powerless when the fox is guarding the henhouse. Dr dilorezzo says we could change the Fed charter so that they couldn't buy bonds, which should reduce inflation. So he does offer a way forward there, a solution.  In capitalism, he consumer is king. This is a good thing. You yourself are empowered because you get to vote with your dollars. So therefore what you buy more of society will see and make more of but a prosperous, progressive economy that should be able to produce goods and services that are constantly cheaper because they get more and more efficient to make with innovation, but centrally planned inflation makes them more expensive, at least in dollar denominated terms. So progress should make things cheaper? Well, then everything should take fewer dollars to buy, homes, oil, bananas, grapes, but it doesn't, and it won't anytime soon, like I mentioned in the interview, there single family build times are taking even longer. That's not more efficient, and they're sure not getting cheaper. In fact, the National Association of Home Builders tells us that from permit to completion in 2015 it took 7.2 months to build a single family home. By 2019 it was up to 8.1 months and then. Last year, the time required to build a single family home from permit to completion was 10.1 months. That's not the side of an efficient economy. So basically, therefore, in the last eight, nine years, the time to build a home has gone from 7.2 months up to 10.1 months. That is a drastic increase in a short period of time. Just amazing. And we now have data after covid as well, broken down by region. The longest build time, by the way, is in New England, where it is 13.9 months to build a home from permit to completion. Gosh, such inefficiency. But despite all that stuff that you might find discouraging like that, I want to go out on a good news note here some encouraging sentiment for you, if you champion free markets, then invest in us rental property down the road, there is no centrally controlled ceiling on what you can sell your property for. Most places don't have rent control. In fact, there's been no federal rent control on private property since World War Two. And somewhat ironically, you benefit. You actually benefit from government backed loans at these low fixed rates, and now they're moderate fixed rates. You often get these through Fannie Freddie or the FHA. See you benefit from that particular government backing as a savvy borrower for rental property. And on top of this, you use the GRE inflation triple crown to flip over that not so capitalistic inflationary force. You flip it upside down and use it to your benefit, profiting fantastically from inflation. So you know how to take the situation you're given and use it to your advantage rather than your detriment. Big thanks to Dr Thomas DiLorenzo today, longtime econ professor and current Mises Institute president, more ways to build Real Estate Wealth coming up here for you on the show in future weeks, as always, with the dash of economics and wealth mindset. Until then, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, Don't Quit Your Daydream.   42:28 Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively,   Keith Weinhold  42:56 The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth, building, getricheducation.com.  

Keith discusses his journey from an entitlement mentality to realizing the importance of wealth creation through real estate investing and shares the real estate shockwave that nobody is talking about. We are also joined by Caeli Ridge, President of Ridge Lending Group, as she explains the differences between owner-occupied and investor mortgage loans. Hear about the ease of entering real estate investing with no formal qualifications or high income required. Learn the concept of demographic shockwaves and how the aging population will influence housing demand in the future. How to ethically use other people's money to build wealth for yourself before you even own a property. Learn about the key differences between owner-occupied mortgage loans and investor mortgage loans, particularly the use of rental income in qualification. Resources: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Show Notes: GetRichEducation.com/520 For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 For advertising inquiries, visit: GetRichEducation.com/ad Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREmarketplace.com/Coach Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Complete episode transcript:   Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai      Keith Weinhold  00:01 Keith, welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, I'll discuss when I was an employee with a scarcity mindset, the real estate shock wave coming that no one's talking about, then, how you can ethically use other people's money to build wealth for yourself before you even own a property today, on get rich education.   00:24 Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold rights for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, who delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests include top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki. Get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast, or visit get rich education.com   Corey Coates  01:09 You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.    Keith Weinhold  01:25 welcome to GRE from Springfield Ohio to Springfield, Missouri and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you are listening to get rich education. It's great to have you back for another week, and I genuinely appreciate your listenership, and I am grateful to have such a large audience. I've got to tell you, admittedly, coming out of college and in my first couple full time jobs, I wasn't always a good employee. I guess I had somewhat of an entitlement mentality. I'm not sure where that came from. I don't know that I can blame anyone else on planning it inside me. I don't know where I got this notion. It sure wasn't from my parents, but I kind of felt like somebody owed me a job just because I have a college degree and I'm good at showing up on time, yeah, like, I'm just a good representative for your company. I mean, now I can see that no one owed me a doggone thing. In fact, I owed my employer value. An employer actually takes a big risk on you when they hire you, paying you to train you until you're productive there. I mean, the hiring process itself is even expensive. Well, though I felt like someone owed me a job just out of college, somewhat Oppositely, I never expected any sort of high income at all, and I had quite a modest income in my first couple years out of college, just like a lot of recent college grads do, until it grew into something more. But my humble geography degree, it conditioned me to think lower income. I knew that going to college in Pennsylvania for geography in what interested me, I mean, that's what I went with, what interested me not what I could make money in well, then I couldn't find a job in my geography field at all. No one would really pay me to describe Asia's mountain ranges to them. So what I ended up doing is working under engineers at a construction and engineering firm, a few of them, one engineering firm really liked me and designated me as their new marketing person. Of all things, they wanted me to call prospective clients on the phone and meet them cold in person, because they just thought somehow, when they met me, that I could win new business for the engineering firm, just I guess, based on how I communicated with other people at other engineering companies, even though I couldn't even talk the language of engineering. Well, anyway, these disciplines engineering, and really it was construction inspection that I did for a while. You know, that stuff, even the marketing stuff, it just didn't fill my soul. And you must have felt this way at your job before. If you don't feel it perpetually, you aren't aligned with your purpose on this earth, and you're spending so many of your faculties and so much of your waking conscious life at that job. Well, motivation to escape that is what got me reading about wealth mindset and real estate investing. Since anyone can do it, no degree needed, no certification, zero formal qualification. And now I think I mentioned this to you before, but it's worth bringing up here again, a turning point is when I read one life changing sentence, just one little what is it? A. Five word sentence in a rich dad book, that pivotal paradigm shifting, course correcting sentence was, being wealthy is a choice. And when I first read being wealthy is a choice, I just didn't believe it. I thought that Robert Kiyosaki, the author, was wrong. Well now I know that he was right. I had thought that being rich is unobtainable. You had to be born into it, so unless you won the lottery, you can't achieve more than middle class. Well, I was wrong about that. Now I can't really say something like, oh, well, a college professor said that rich people are bad or, you know, I don't have that story. I can't blame anyone else for growing up with a limited, scarcity mindset, really, other than myself in the context that was created around me. I mean, growing up in Pennsylvania, I just knew that the carts family and the domileskeys, they had more than us. And that's just the way it would always be. It's sort of preordained, and other families had less than us, and these family trajectories were just cast in stone as to how it had to be. But the good news is that it's not, and this is still what makes America great, the fact that it takes zero formal training, zero risk parents, and not even a high salary for you to do something like get a three and a half percent down payment loan for owner occupied FHA fourplex or 20% down for a single family rental that produces income from day one in The Southeast or Midwest, you can plant that seed that get other people's money working for you seed in just that way, even if you're interested in something as unprofitable as geography. Now, a huge reason that people disparage the wealthy is rooted in jealousy and envy, and that is not good. There's no goodness in those emotions, and that is because people don't think it's obtainable for them. It's obtainable for almost anybody. Learning that it is within your reach that completely breaks down your resentment of the rich. Yes, indeed, being wealthy is a choice. Well, people are obtaining wealth in today's real estate market. Here, Redfin reported that through the latest quarter ended real estate investors bought fully one in four of the nation's most affordable homes. That's up 3% year over year. And as Redfin puts it, it's a sign that investor activity is stabilizing, and as homeownership remains out of reach for many Americans, real estate investors are coming out of hibernation to take advantage of robust demand from renters. So investors are buying a greater proportion of affordable homes, some of them through our marketplace, GRE marketplace. Now over the long term, let's think about how US housing is going to be positioned for sustainable demand. Demography is destiny. That's a quote attributed to 19th century philosopher Auguste coon Tay, it means that the size and structure of a population will influence its future. So then all we need to do is track the age of a population over time to sharpen and give clarity to a forecast. It is axiomatic that in 10 years, a 25 year old will be 35 No kidding. Well, what's important about the age of 35 is that is the average age of today's first time homebuyer. It's between 35 and 36 All right. Well, the US is peak birth year occurred in 2007 we know that just look at demographics. Well, then add 35 to it. Add 35 years to 2007 This means that, on average, they will buy their first home in the early 2040s a lot of people are going to be forming their first household, whether it's rent or buy around the year 2040, I mean, the peak in all of American history, a lot more people will need homes. In fact, more than 13,000 Americans are turning age 35 every single day for the foreseeable future for more than a decade. This year is the first year where we've ever had over 13,000 Americans turning 35 every single day. And that is projected to continue to happen every single year through 2035 and that's as late as the Census Bureau projection that I have goes on. On that stat this baked in demographic housing demand. Hey, if we don't get serious about building more housing fast, and it's likely that we won't, this will be analogous to a demographic shock wave that hits the housing market. The population aging into homeownership is projected to exceed the population aging out, as in the death rate for a long time. This will pump housing demand, and that's not all. I've only talked domestically so far. This doesn't even account for additional demand from immigration. And immigrants tend to be younger and are renters for a long duration, or just forever. On top of immigration, the average number of people per household is falling as well. In 1960 3.3, people live per household in 1990 it was down to 2.6 by 2023 it was down to 2.5 this means that more housing is required just in order to shelter the same population. But of course, the population won't stay static. So to keep piling on with the housing demand here, the overall US population is projected to grow as well, from 342 million today to 383 million in 30 years. That's per the CBO. The demographics for senior housing are even more bullish. And of course, when I use the word bullish like this, this bullish sentiment that's from the investor side. If you're looking to buy your first home or find a place to rent, this is all more discouraging than perhaps all of our perpetual struggles to live a balanced life or lose weight. This baked into the cake. Demand is almost perfectly predictable, and it's of seismic importance to the real estate market. And yet, despite that fact, you know, more investors curiously fixate for month after month on something like the Fed's interest rate decision or the next jobs report. I mean, this is both harder to predict and way less significant than the sustainable demographic demand for rental housing that you got right there. So really, to sum up, this segment demographics reveal that housing demand should stay high for decades, long term, then you should expect higher home prices, higher occupancy rates and higher rents. And you can benefit by owning many rental properties. And our guest and I are about to discuss how you can do exactly that own many rental properties, and how to do it efficiently with less cash out of your pocket, including how you can start using other people's money before you even own a property when you're trying to qualify for a loan on a rental property, in some cases, you can Use a portion of the tenant's rent income toward your qualification income. Let's talk with this week's guest. There's one place that's created more financial freedom through real estate than any other lender in the entire nation that's time for a big welcome back to their president, Caeli Ridge.   Caeli Ridge  13:23 Keith Weinhold, my friend, thank you for having me happy to be here, sir.   Keith Weinhold  13:26 Oh, it's so good to have you here. You're a longtime friend of the show and so many of our listeners that you've helped originate investor mortgage loans. Caeli leads Ridge lending group. They're an investor centric lender. She does such a good concise job of explaining specifically what real estate investors need to know in optimizing your loan positions. In fact, on a previous episode, she once broke down every single line of a closing disclosure form for us one by one, detailing each individual closing cost and prepaid item and in there, besides being specific income property loan experts, they're really thorough and helpful that way. Well, Caeli, tell us about the key differences between owner occupied mortgage loans for buying a primary residence and investor mortgage loans for a rental property.   Caeli Ridge  14:17 The key things are that on a rental property, probably the biggest difference is going to be that for a rental property, there's additional incomes that potentially we get to use to help offset that new monthly liability, aka the mortgage payment, p, i, t i, principal, interest, tax and insurance, we have access to income potentially to help offset that. So in the debt to income ratio category, it can be a huge boon or a huge benefit, depending on what the individual's qualifications are. Additionally, in that same theme, we're not just confined to a conventional Fannie Freddie loan for investors. We have things like the DSCR debt service coverage ratio that you would not be able to apply to a primary residence, but also allows for income to help identify whether the property qualifies for financing.   Keith Weinhold  15:04 So for prospective investor borrower is wondering whether we'll have enough income to qualify for that property or not. Is it a certain percentage of the tenants rent income that is used in the investor borrowers qualification income?   Caeli Ridge  15:19 absolutely, so conventional full doc mortgages they are going to receive in the acquisition year formula, because there's two formulas that will be used in underwriting. One is called the acquisition year. The other one is called the Schedule E I'll focus on the acquisition year. This is applicable from the date that they acquire the property and until that tax year's Federal tax return is filed. I needed to find up to in a minute they get up to 75% of the gross rents minus the proposed p, i, t, I, principal, interest, tax and insurance. Now I say up to because it depends on two primary criteria that the borrower must possess in order to get the full 75% so think about it this way. There's three buckets. Okay, the first bucket gets the full 75% of whatever the gross rents are. The easy math example that I give, let's say that the gross rents are $1,000 a month. The PI ti proposed payment is 500 a month. If they're in bucket number one, and they get the full 75% of 1000 they have 750 bucks, right? And from that they're going to subtract out the $500 of mortgage payment. In that example, it would leave them with a gain positive 250 so that individual came to us with a debt to income ratio of x as a result of purchasing this investment property, their DTI is going to go down because they're $250 richer monthly. So 75% is the maximum you can use in the acquisition year. That individual in that bucket has to demonstrate two things. One, they have a primary housing expense, whether that's a mortgage or they rent, either is fine. And then second, they need to be able to demonstrate that they can they've had 12 months of history in owning investment property. So if they have both of those two things, they get the full 75 if they have one or the other, they're in bucket number two, which gives us an offset. They cannot have the full 75% they don't get the full gain, but I can offset. So going back to my example, using $1,000 of income and $500 of mortgage payment, they can't have the 250 gain, but I can give them up to 500 making that a zero, right? It's covered completely the mortgage payment. It's not increased any debt or anything in the example. So DTI would stay exactly the same as where they began, when we started. And then finally, bucket number three would mean that individuals that have neither of those two things, no primary they live rent free, no primary house expense, and they do not have 12 months demonstrated history currently, of being an investor. They get zero of the rental income, so they've got to support the full new payment within their DTI and keep it within that 50% threshold. So that was a long explanation to the question, but I think that that pretty much covers it.   Keith Weinhold  17:56 Now, That's really helpful. Okay, that can help the borrower's debt to income ratio. I guess a lot of cases is going to be helping it out by a small amount. What if, say that investors buying a new build rental property and there is no tenant, hence no rent income there yet.   Caeli Ridge  18:11 I'm so glad you asked. So on a subject property basis, that is the property in which they're purchasing at the moment in time. It's called the subject property. Those properties do not need to be tenant occupied. We can use assumptive rental income from the appraisal on a rental property that will come with some additional forms. It's called a 1007, it's just the number on the page. Those are rental income comps. The appraiser has given us an average of what those rents are going to be, and that's what we're going to use the 75% calculation on.   Keith Weinhold  18:41 Okay, that's really good to know new build or resale rental property, that's going to work the same with either one there. Now I know oftentimes that one wants to qualify. When we look at non order occupied properties, rental properties with conventional conforming loans from Fannie or Freddie, typically, one puts 20% down on those properties we've talked before. I think one can put as little as 15% down, although they would have PMI in that case, or alternatively, rather than putting 20% down, last time I checked, they could put 25% down and get a lower interest rate. So can you talk to us about the interplay of the percent down payment for rental property.   Caeli Ridge  19:21 I'll start by saying, more often than not, when you do the math the capital expenditure, or in this case, the difference between 5% down 80 versus 75% divided by the monthly payment difference, you're going to find that the leverage is going to outperform the higher 80% will outperform the lower 75% but absolutely, to your point, the payment is going to be less for two reasons. At the 75% level, the interest rate will be lower because you've got more skin in the game. The interest rate, loan level, price adjustment for 75% is going to be more attractive than it will be at 20% down. So the rate will be lower. And of course. The loan amount is lower, so both of those combined characteristics are going to create better cash flow, it's true, and a lower monthly payment. However, the math that I always want to promote, that people are doing is looking at it side by side, all you have to do, and it's actually much easier than people, I think, assume. So you figure out the capital expenditure difference. Let's just use 100 grand, okay, because his math is simple. So you've got $5,000 in additional capital that you'd be bringing to the table for the 75% option, right? Versus retaining the five grand, the payment difference is 50 bucks a month. Okay? Whatever the number is, all you're going to do is take the five grand and divide that by the payment difference, and that will give the individual the number of months it takes them to recapture that capital for the savings. Generally, my opinion, per an investment property is that if that number is in excess of 36 months, it's going to take you over 30 or three years to recapture that capital versus the savings. I'd keep my money because I can do one of a few things with it. If I chose to, I could cash flow the 50 bucks myself every month for 100 months, if that was the math. Or I could apply that five grand and use it with some other monies, perhaps, and buy another investment property, or put it in different investment asset class that would provide a return so more often than not, when they do that math, my belief is, when I do it, I'd say even 95% of the time, the higher the leverage is going to be, the better return numbers.   Keith Weinhold  21:27 We're philosophically aligned that way. We're leveraged proponents here, typically the smaller down payment, 20% is going to be better for you long term than 25% even though you'll get a somewhat lower interest rate on a rental property, putting 25% down rather than 20% when we pull back, we look at the interest rate difference between an owner occupied property and a rental property. What is the spread between the interest rate? Of course, you're going to pay higher interest rate on a rental property because it's a lot less likely that the borrower is going to walk away from their own home than they would a rental property.   Caeli Ridge  22:02 exactly and this is a great segue into those LLPAs that I always like that we spend some time talking about. So llpa, loan level, price adjustment. So for the GRE listeners, this is a more complicated concept, so I'm going to try and quickly break it down. Keith loves it when I get so wordy. So llpa is a positive or a negative number that associates with the individual characteristics of the loan transaction. So one of those characteristics, obviously, is occupancy. The loan level price adjustment for a primary residence versus an investment property is quite different, and for the reasons exactly that you described, there's a lot less risk in a primary then there will be in a rental. Because if an individual needs to choose between defaulting on where they live and an investment property, if it came down to that, obviously they're going to maintain, yeah, so they got to choose. So skin in the game, risk, etc, generally speaking. And there's all those other variables too, credit score, loan size, loan to value, property type, purchase versus refi, those are all unique llpas That will have their own unique number. But in general terms, an owner occupied where you live is typically going to price out an interest rate about one percentage point lower than you would find on an investment property, generally, if we're comparing apples to apples.   Keith Weinhold  23:15 talking about that risk difference for the lender, just like in the 20% versus 25% down. Example, there's less risk for the lender when you put 25% skin in the game. Hence the lower interest rate there too. Caeli, tell us about fitting the right mortgage type to the borrower. And of course, there are so many types. There's 30 year versus 15 year, fixed rate mortgages versus Adjustable Rate Mortgages, interest only, DSCR loans like you touched on. So tell us about getting that right fit for that individual borrower.   Caeli Ridge  23:49 This is a bit of a rabbit hole. So what I would start by saying is we do at Ridge take a lot of time on the front end and identifying not only what their needs are, their goals are, but obviously what their qualifications are, and marrying all of those things together and coming up with a roadmap that I like to call it, depending on where the individual is in their journey of real estate investing, as the tax returns may continue to be filed, and how aggressive they want to be with their deductions, maybe some cost segregation. I know I'm getting a little bit technical here, but because we maintain and have all of those products, it's very, very uncommon, or very rare, that we find an investor, potential client, that we do not have some sort of loan product to satisfy what their end game or end goal is. And you know, maybe we continue to graduate them. Let's say that they start in a DSCR because they can't qualify for Fannie Freddie today, but that is their ultimate goal. We're going to provide them with the insight and the background or the feedback that plants the seeds and gets them to that place in six months or a year, or whatever. So I hope I answered the question, depending on their individual needs and goals and qualifications, of course, really will dictate which one of those is going to be applicable.   Keith Weinhold  25:00 We've got a lot more to discuss, including, is it easier to approve w2 incomes from a day job versus 1099 from contract or gig work? And more, we're talking with the nation's foremost expert on income property. She is the president of ridge lending group, Caeli ridge. More, we come back. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold.  hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge lending group and MLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage, you can start your pre qualification and chat with President Chaley Ridge personally. Start now while it's on your mind at Ridge lendinggroup.com. That's ridgelendinggroup.com. Your bank is getting rich off of you, the national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings. If your money isn't making 4% you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor two, earn 8% hundreds of others are text family, 266, 866, learn more about freedom. Family investments, liquidity fund on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text family, 266, 866   Robert Kiyosaki  27:00 This is Rich Dad, Poor Dad Author Robert Kiyosaki, listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, Don't Quit Your Daydream.   Keith Weinhold  27:18 Welcome back to get rich education. We're talking with Ridge lending Group President Chaley ridge. These discussions are great, because debt, through leverage, builds wealth even faster than compound interest, as I've discussed, and Caeli is really the linchpin in her company, and help makes that happen with reliable income property loans and Caeli today, there are a lot more people with sharing economy income, gig economy income, or doing contract work, and they're paid with a 1099 form that shows their income for that year, versus a w2 employee wage job. So can you tell us about whether it's easier to approve those that have a w2 income and that versus the 1099   Caeli Ridge  28:03 I don't know that I would classify it as easier as harder. It's just different. So on the 1099 first and foremost, if you don't have a 24 month history of having that kind of income, you're not going to get a conventional loan. And assuming that we're going to kind of keep on that path of Fannie Freddie's. Because remember, guys, if you can't fit into those boxes. We've got 10 others that we can look to to get the financing for. But if we're in the Fannie Freddie, that's really where this is applicable, the 1099 and the w2 I mean, they're really equal in terms of the overall process. The difference would be that with 1099 you must have that 24 month history. The calculation is that we're going to take an average, it gets a little bit convoluted, like anything else that is leverage or financing related, but a 24 month average of 1099 unless we can show that that individual, let's say that they're self employed and maybe a Schedule C, and they've got their 1099 coming in through that way. If they can show five year history of having license or being self employed that way, that instead of having to use a 24 month average, we'll use a 12 month average, and that may be to their advantage. Let's say that the most recent year filed is in a bit of a decline from the prior year. Let's just use 2022 and 23 let's say 23 is a little bit lower than 22 a 24 month average is not going to be as big a number than if I were to just to be able to take the 12 month average of the most recent year. So if that individual can demonstrate they have five years of being or receiving that kind of income, then instead of being a 24 month average, I get to choose and just do the 12 month average. So that would be one thing about the 1099 that I would say otherwise, yeah, they're just different. I don't know that one is harder than the other. As long as the qualifications are there, they're there.   Keith Weinhold  29:43 When I think about this, I guess it does make sense from the lender perspective. If you're paid and shown income there on your 1099 from sharing economy work, gig economy work, or being self employed, that's more volatile work than having a day job. Um, as an employee.   Caeli Ridge  30:01 Sure, absolutely. And if you can demonstrate that you have that history and you've been able to consistently earn and have those numbers, it's okay, yeah, but without the 24 months, you're not going to get a conventional loan. You're gonna have to look at DSCR or something else.   Keith Weinhold  30:15 We're talking about what it takes to qualify for income property loans today with Ridge lending Group President Caeli Ridge, when we talk about that qualification bar that needs to be met. Caeli, you see so many loan applications in there. You have a team. You look at and deal with so many situations when you're free, you even pick up the phone, sometimes yourself, and you will talk to individual borrowers. So what do you see in there as the top reasons for not qualifying for an income property loan.   Caeli Ridge  30:42 The top reasons for not qualifying for a conventional loan probably is debt to income ratio, yeah, more often than not of the three basic criteria, which are assets, enough cash to close or reserves, credit and then DTI, I would say it's the DTI category that more often than not, is the culprit for qualifying or not. And it may be as simple as how they filed their last year's tax return and saying, Okay, before you file 2024 don't do that until you send Ridge a draft, so that we can get ahead of what you may not have known to look for last time. They could be very simple, little easy fixes. And you know, sometimes maybe it's they don't want to pay the extra taxes, which sometimes that might be required. In which case we say, okay, let's pivot over to the DSCR options. In which case, by the way, just as a quick sidebar, I'm finding that gap is starting to narrow a little bit to the point that it's a lot more affordable in terms of the investment property and what cash flow is expected than it used to be. The differences between a Fannie Freddie rate and a DSCR rate is starting to narrow a little bit. So if you have to be DSCR, I would not shy away from that just because you assume I think it's going to be more reasonable for cash flow properties.   Keith Weinhold  31:52 Yeah, I'll tell you, when I was an employee as a day job worker grinding in my eight by 10 cubicle, as it was back in the day, and I was buying income properties. Yeah, the main thing I would get held up on is that my debt to income ratio, my DTI, was too high, and my salary was pretty strong, although not fantastic, not astronomically high, but I felt like I was a guy that was pretty good, pretty prudent with my finances. And yeah, it didn't feel good to be told hey, Keith, to lower your DTI. You need to pay off your 3% automobile loan that's at a nice fixed interest rate. I didn't want to have to do that, but I was willing to do that to retire the small loan in order to qualify for the big loan.   Caeli Ridge  32:36 That makes sense. I might just offer a comment in that regard. What you may have experienced at that time could have been what we call an overlay in the industry. So, yes, like anything, right? Lenders aren't created equal. Because we're so investor friendly and focused, we are going to go by the purest form of those Fannie Freddie guidelines. It's called a seller's guide. And as an example, let's just say that Fannie Freddie gives you 75% of the subject properties, gross rents, whereas B of A or I'm just picking on B of I don't know why, but some other lender may impose an overlay. It's like layers of risk and saying, No, we're not going to give you any rental income credit whatsoever, even though the guideline says that we can do it, our overlay says, No, we can't. So depending on who you're working with, credit unions are a little notorious for that being a little bit more restrictive in their box of guideline. So it may not always be what you think. So if you've had a lender, tell you DTI wise, you don't qualify, but you feel like this is not quite right. You should double check that, because it may be an overlay.   Keith Weinhold  33:34 Everyone is interested in interest rates. It's been so interesting with what's happened the past few years, ever really, since the covid Emergency cut took place in 2020 and the volatility that we've seen in interest rates, then we saw interest rates max out in this cycle at about 8% almost a year ago. What does this declining interest rate environment mean at a mortgage loan company? And what do you see for the future of rates there?   Caeli Ridge  34:02 Well, rates have been coming down. If you guys are watching the headlines, you're seeing those sound bites. We have started to see some more refinance activity than we were seeing before, certainly additional purchases as we start to see interest rates come down, I am of the opinion that we're going to continue to see some improvement in the rate department, dependent on some of the jobs reports that we'll be getting soon, so we'll see. But My money is on that, we'll continue to see some nice tailwind in the rate department throughout the rest of the year, and who knows what's going to happen? I mean, this is our election year, etc. We'll see how the rest of it plays out.   Keith Weinhold  34:33 How does a prospective borrower get their financial house in order themselves before getting a hold of you and your team there, what are some of those checklist items that they should do themselves at home first?   Caeli Ridge  34:47 like I said a bit ago, so you've got those three primary criteria. If you're wanting to qualify for those conventional full doc loans, think about your credit Do you know what that credit score is? Now, depending on some other variables, it doesn't have to be 800 Credit scores to qualify. I mean, we've got clients as low as 650 that are able to get financing conventionally, because they've got compensating factors, similarly for assets on the investment property side, the down payment and the closing costs and the reserves, none of those things can be borrowed or gifted. And that's very different than if it was an owner occupied, gifted and borrowed funds are okay for an owner occupied, for an investment property, they have to be sourced and seasoned, meaning your own funds over the last 60 days. So think about that. What your down payment is going to be an estimate of closing costs and make sure that you have the appropriate amount of capital. And then finally, that debt to income ratio. That's a slippery or one to try and calculate that for yourselves. But if you think about your minimum payments on your credit report. That's really all that goes into it. Minimum payments, not the debt load. The minimum payments on the credit report divided by the monthly income, gross income, you should be able to come up with a number, and 50% is that threshold. So if you can kind of just take that kind of mental back of the napkin of your own, you should have a pretty good gage on whether or not you think you're going to be in this box, or if getting into the game, or continuing to be in the game, is going to require some alternative loan types.   Keith Weinhold  36:05 Inflation has been such a story for the past three or four years, but some people aren't aware that there's actually been credit score inflation. Last time I checked, the average credit score had been slowly rising in the United States. What's the highest credit score that gets one the lowest rate.   Caeli Ridge  36:22 We're staying in the Fannie Freddie department, 760 and above is all the same bucket, if the individual qualifications are identical, if this one has an 850 credit and this one has a 760 credit, exactly the same in the interest rate department.   Keith Weinhold  36:35 And then, once they've engaged with you, what about locking in their interest rate. What duration did they have prior to closing? Tell us about that timeline.   Caeli Ridge  36:45 So an interest rate can be locked on a 15 day lock, a 30 day lock, a 45 day lock, even a 60 or 90 day lock, typically it's a 30 day lock that's the average. The shorter the period of lock, the better the rate and or points that you would pay. And the longer is the adverse right? The higher the rate of the higher the points. I like to look at locking an interest rate, usually when we get the appraisal back, because an appraisal can be the piece that might delay or there may be some issues. So I generally like to see the appraisal first. We've been in such a volatile area with interest rates and what might be happening in the ups and downs, etc. I've broken that rule quite a few times over the last couple of years, I would say today, floating may be to our advantage, just because we feel like rates are on the run and that they may continue to improve. Keeping in mind, once you lock in your interest rate, it is locked. Ridge does have a policy that if interest rates were to fall five, eight of a percentage point or point 625, you would have a one time automatic float down option. It's highly unlikely, and that's why we can kind of put that in there. But if it happened, we would honor that. Otherwise, when you're locked, you're stuck with that rate. You can't expect that if an eight through a quarter point comes off of or rates come down that much, that you're going to get a different rate. The only way to do that would be to let the existing one expire for 30 days and then relock market, which is not advisable.   Keith Weinhold  37:59 Yeah, you the investor, has to think about how important a lock really is to you in this declining interest rate environment, almost everyone expects mortgage rates to fall more slowly than they rose. They spiked up so fast in 2022 Caeli, how does our audience engage with you? Get Started and go on their path to getting investment property loans.   Caeli Ridge  38:24 Three ways to reach us. Obviously, we've got our website. Please check us out there. There's a lot of good information, ridgelendinggroup.com you can email us at info@ridgelendinggroup.com, and then finally, toll free is 855-747-4343 855-74RIDGE is that easy way to remember, and we'll be here on standby. Thanks, Keith.   Keith Weinhold  38:43 Ridge is the same place where I get my income property loans. It's been great having you back on the show. Thank you. Yeah, strong. Well laid out material from cheyley here, as always, let me give us a perspective on creating value by having a good loan rather than not having the debt. Remember that just four weeks ago, here on Episode 516 it was the episode about is every debt worth paying off? And the short answer is no. I got a couple questions from listeners of that episode basically asking the same thing. Well, just say that interest rates are 6% and basically they're asking, well, if I pay all cash for a property or for a car, it doesn't matter what it is, then I avoid paying 6% interest. So right there is my six points of arbitrage. Well, to that, I say, okay, but look what if you think you can achieve a 12% investment return? Borrowing at six to invested 12 is a 6% spread. That's 6% arbitrage as well. But here's the thing, you've got a big advantage of doing this with the loan rather than the paid off condition. This is because. With the loan, you still have the use of your money. You haven't given it away. You still have your money, plus the six points of arbitrage in the paid off condition. You've got six points of arbitrage and you don't have the use of the money any longer. That's the big difference, and that's the value of having a loan, as long as you can service the payments. Getting back to mortgage loans, in today's episode, there are so many loan types for property, conventional, Fannie, Freddie's, dscrs, Portfolio loans, bridge loans, rehab loans, recourse and non recourse loan types, balloon loans, arms and a lot more. Caeli and I didn't discuss their all in one loan, which is like a big, flexible HELOC that you can put on your property. It's such a good product that can help you. You can ask about their all in one loan. When it comes down to what are the factors you need to be most attentive to? They are your assets, reserves, credit, income and debt to income ratio, unless dependent on the loan type that you want. So much attention is paid to interest rates, and some attention is warranted. They surely matter. Be mindful, though, that a quarter of a percent interest rate change on a 30 year loan per 100k borrowed that is just a difference of about $15 in monthly payment, $15 if you go from, say, 6% down to five and three quarters percent, so it takes a rate drop of a full 1% for a savings of about $60 then once you have some of Your finances in order, you can go ahead and do just what I've done for my own properties. For your next income property loan, you can give them a call or start at Ridgelendinggroup.com Until next week, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, Don't Quit Your Daydream.   41:58 Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively.   Keith Weinhold  42:18 The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building, getricheducation.com.

Tom Wheelwright is back by popular demand, our most recurring guest in GRE show history. He’s a CPA, an International Authority on Tax, and Best Selling Author of “Tax-Free Wealth” amongst many other titles. We focus on the potential unrealized capital gains tax, which would tax the increase in property value even before sale. Tom explains the implications of this proposal and the broader impact on tax policy.  We cover the Democrats' proposal for capital gains tax at ordinary income rates, capital gains on gifts, and capital gains when you die. The proposal for a billionaires tax, which would tax unrealized gains at $100 million, could potentially extend to lower net worth individuals over time. Real estate income can result in a negative tax rate, increasing cash flow after taxes. Learn about the benefits of working with a knowledgeable tax advisor. Resources: GetRichEducation.com/tax Show Notes: GetRichEducation.com/519 For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 For advertising inquiries, visit: GetRichEducation.com/ad Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREmarketplace.com/Coach Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Complete episode transcript:   Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai      Keith Weinhold  00:01 Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, this week we're talking about the value of the raw land that comes along with your property, the importance of an as built survey in real estate. Then it's tax topics with pro Tom wheelwright, the specter of an unrealized capital gains tax, higher capital gains tax rates, how gambling is taxed, and how to permanently reduce your overall tax burden. Today on get rich education,     00:33 since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests and key top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast or visit get rich education.com   Corey Coates  01:18 You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.   Keith Weinhold  01:34 Welcome to GRE from Essex County England to Essex, Massachusetts and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold. You're listening to get rich education before we talk taxes, let's talk about the land, the raw land, the lot that comes along with your property. Investors don't spend much time thinking about it. Yet the land is sometimes worth more than the home or structure that's on it, per the FHFA, land constitutes 32.2% of the value of the average US single family property in a metro area. Now the inexpensive land prices nationally, they are predominantly in what I'm classifying it as three US areas, the Midwest, the southeast and Appalachia well, where you have inexpensive land. Oh, that also happens to be where the cash flow for long term rentals resides. Land costs more by the water because people want water activities, water proximity and water view. So the lower costs are inland, and land also costs more by the water, because coasts and shorelines constrain development, sprawl that limits supply and a limited supply of buoys up prices. Consequently, the highest land values are mostly in the Northeast Corridor, from Boston to DC, Miami, coastal California and Honolulu. Yes, Manhattan values are flat out extortionate for raw land now, Seattle, Madison, Wisconsin and Boulder, Colorado. They are three places with really high land values as well. Seattle and Madison are on geographic isthmus. And isthmus is a narrow strip of land with water on both sides. It's interesting how Nashville's nascent population influx made its land values surge inside a cheap sea of southeastern US land values now costly land areas like these ones that I've been talking about on the coasts, they could work well for short term vacation rentals like Airbnb and VRBO, your classic waterfront and beachfront weekly rentals, but they do not work for long term rental cash flow. Texas Land values are sort of low to medium. Land near the Mississippi River and its major tributaries have low costs because rivers are efficient transportation networks, prohibitively high land costs. That's one reason, actually, why alternative building methods just really aren't as cost effective as some people think. I'm talking about things like 3d printed homes, prefabbed homes, tiny homes and shipping container homes, well, all of them have got to sit on land, just like conventionally build homes do. And there is a land cost. Talk to a tear down specialist, and they'll tell you that in some older homes, 100% of the total value is in the l and. And in practicality, it's actually even more lopsided than that. The structure can have negative value because demolition is not free. So for you to get an idea yourself, your property tax bill, it's going to show you your split. That's where you'll see the assessed values broken out for both your structure and the land. So the bottom line here is that cash flowing properties have low land values, typically 25% or less of the total property value. That's generally what you want to look for. And I swear the only thing that's more barren than raw land is the creative naming process for new developments. There is such a lack of creativity in these development names. I'm talking about names like Willow Creek Estates, stone bridge crossing, or what else do they name a new housing development? How about VISTA, view heights? They all have these idyllic sounding names that somehow just all sound like each other. Well, we're talking about raw land when you get in contract to buy a property, the seller side is expected to provide you with an as built, it often still comes in the form of an old fashioned piece of paper and as built survey, what it is is a plan view, a bird's eye or aerial view of your property. It's not a photograph, but a drawing, and it shows you the dimensions and the placement of structures on your property, and it includes things like fences and other features like easements. Now, lenders don't always require an as built before granting a loan, but it's a good idea to ask to see one before you wrap up your next deal. If you want to in your offer, you can even require that a recent as built be done by a surveying company. All right. Well, what exactly do you look for on an as built once you have one in hand, first see that the house or apartment building that you're buying is properly set back from the property lines to meet zoning requirements. If the six foot side setback is only five feet 10 inches, then you'll have to address that before you buy even if it's five feet 11 inches. Now it's possible that the jurisdiction that you're buying in will grant a letter of non conforming status, but if not, the structure is going to have to be adjusted. Another item to look for on an as built are encroachments. This is where part of a neighbor structure protrudes over the lot line and onto your property. And encroachment is really only acceptable if you're willing to grant the neighbor an easement in perpetuity for their encroachment onto your land. But why would you want to do that? The third thing that I want to mention that you should look for an as built is the existence of easements. An easement that just means that another party has a legal right to come over onto your land and use it. Yeah, and easements are actually quite common. It's not as threatening as it might sound. A common one is that as your as built would show, say, a five foot wide by 60 foot long easement. Is there that a utility company has access to. Well, that's something that makes sense. It's for the common good, but just be mindful that an easement cannot have a structure with a permanent foundation built on top of it, alright, because an electric company or a water company might have to excavate there. Most people think of easements on the raw land, but there are also aerial easements, for example, an overhead power line where the roof eaves are not allowed to intrude on that airspace. So to review what you learned so far today, the best cash flow properties typically have low land values, often about 25% or less of the tolerable property value. And an as built survey is an aerial view drawing of your property and its dimensions on an as built look to see that it meets zoning requirements like setbacks and look for encroachments and easements. It is resale properties where it's more important to look at as builts than it is for new construction properties.  As we're about to bring in tax pro Tom Wheelwright shortly, business owners and real estate investors really get so many of the best tax breaks in the US Code. But you've got to know. How to find them, or else work then with a CPA that does know how to find them, that really knows how to navigate their way around the tax code, people that make high salaries pay high taxes, as much as 50% you remember I did that episode a few months ago, high salaries don't create wealth. Taxes are one big reason why, say, for example, a chiropractor makes $1.2 million a year in salary. But if that chiropractor becomes an investor by buying and selling other Chiropractic Clinics or investing in real estate, their tax rate will drop by half or more, and that's because capital gains tax rates are about half of ordinary income tax rates. So see, you don't want to be a super earner. You want to earn enough money to invest and become a super owner, but tax policy could change Tom and I will discuss that first. Then we'll talk about reducing the amount of tax that you pay. Today is a new punishing unrealized capital gains tax coming that you will have to pay. What this means is that if you have a $500,000 home, and it rises in value to $550,000 well, you would have to pay tax on your $50,000 of profit, but you haven't sold your home. So this feels so wrong, because you haven't realized any profit at all. This is what unrealized capital gains tax is. And also, where are you going to get the cash to pay the tax on your 50k of profit just because your home rose in value yet you didn't realize it? I mean, might you have to sell your home in order to get the cash to pay the tax. And then what if you though could pay the tax on your unrealized capital gain so you do pay it, but then the following year, the home goes down in value. Well, would you get a refund then? So the unrealized capital gains tax proposal is a mess. Let's learn about it and more. This week's guest is a best selling author, CPA and an international authority on tax. He's brilliant because he actually makes taxes fun, easy and understandable. He's familiar to you because he's the most recurrent guest in show history. Welcome back to GRE Tom Wheelwright.   Tom Wheelwright  12:48 thanks always good to be on your show.   Keith Weinhold  12:50 Tom probably with more than 30 show appearances here now you are 6% of GRE episodes.   Tom Wheelwright  13:00 That's a little scary. But you know, taxes are your single biggest expense, so why not?   Keith Weinhold  13:05 It's appropriate. And yeah, I guess all these appearances are certainly an endorsement of how much you help our audience. It's also a reflection of how tax and legal are not my strong suit. So it really helps to have you here absolutely the all time, assists leader in GRE history then and Tyler. An awful lot of timely tax topics going on that are probably first and foremost in more people's news feeds than they usually are. As we're here during presidential campaign season, the one that it really seems to revolve around the most is this potential tax proposal on unrealized gains. I've been around long enough where I seem to see this proposal come up more often, but it never seems to go anywhere. So first, why don't you tell us what unrealized gains are?   Tom Wheelwright  13:51 it actually goes beyond that. Interestingly enough, what the Democrats are proposing is, first of all, they're proposing capital gains rates at ordinary income rates. So they're proposing doubling the capital gains rate. That's actually as important as anything else. The second thing is, they're proposing capital gains on gifts. So if you give it, if you give your business to your child, you have a capital gains ordinary income rates. They're proposing capital gains when you die. So not only an estate tax, but also a capital gains tax. So then you get taxed twice when you die. So about 80 to 90% of your estate goes to the government when you die. If you're a business owner, as an example, then they're proposing eliminating the 1031 exchange, which would mean that on a trade of real estate, you'd have a capital gains tax at ordinary income rates. Then they're talking about this unrealized capital gains so if you do nothing but build your business or your real estate, the increase in value is subject to capital gains taxes at ordinary income rates. Now you know their proposal is, we have this tax. Tax when you're over $100 million that is not seem to be in the news feeds right now, but that's what it is. They call it the billionaires tax, and they're calling it an alternative minimum tax on billionaires. But clearly, 100 million is not a billion. That's only a 10th of a billion. And the biggest issue, of course, is if you tax unrealized gains at 100 million, soon you're going to tax them at 10 million, then it's going to be 1 million. Because history. That's the history of our tax law. The history of our tax law. Remember, in 1913 when we passed the 16th Amendment, it was passed because it was only a tax on the rich, right? It would never have passed if it was going to be a tax on the average person. And yet it passed. Because great, we're okay taxing somebody else, as long as it's not our tax. We're okay taxing somebody else. That's pretty much what's going on with this unrealized gains tax is, oh, well, it's on somebody else and they have enough money. It's no big deal. Therefore, I'm okay with that, because why shouldn't they pay more tax? That is what this is about. The challenge is, is, as we saw with the income tax, eventually it will reach the average person, or at least the average entrepreneur, real estate investor. Because think also, let's say that you build your wealth in real estate, and then when you retire, you say, Well, look, I don't want to be doing active real estate anymore. I'm going to trade my single family homes or my apartment building. I'm going to trade for a Walgreens a triple net lease, well under their proposal, that would be taxed because, again, no 1031 exchanges over $500,000 so that means that if you accumulate your wealth through business or real estate, you pay a much higher tax rate than if you accumulate your wealth by investing in Wall Street through a 401k because if you invest in Wall Street through a 401K, you only have to pay tax as you pull that out, you're not going to be paying tax on the value. Now that's assuming that they don't tax the increase in value of your 401K, which is also obviously a possibility. Interesting enough people talk a lot about the constitutionality of this. The challenge with that is that we already have taxes unrealized gains. If you're a dealer in stocks, in securities you do mark to market, that is meaning that you're going to pay tax on unrealized gains. And so there is actually precedent for this, and that's the scary thing, is that they could point to that precedent and say, Well, wait a minute, it's just an income tax, it's not a wealth tax, that's what they're going to say. They're going to say it's an income tax, not a wealth tax, because it's on appreciation, and appreciation is income. That's how they're going to go down this road. Will it start at $100 million Absolutely, that's where it will start. Will it then drift down? Who knows? But likely that's the history of our tax system. Yeah. I mean, we've talked before about the phenomenon of the camel getting its nose under the tent. However, in this case, I didn't realize there's already precedent for unrealized gains, in a sense, as potentially, if this is approved for those with $100 million net worth, and in next it's 10 million net worth, $1 million net worth and so on, like you described there, when you talk about capital gains tax rates being stepped up so that they're at ordinary income tax rates. It's actually somewhat of an interesting philosophical discussion, in a way. It sort of makes sense that a person's gains from investment could or should be taxed at the same rate as one's income when they go to their day job. However, why don't we do that by lowering income taxes rather than doubling capital gains? Wait a minute, no, because it's a double tax. Let's say that you're a business owner. Why does your business increase in value? Well, because you're making income, but you're already being taxed on that income. It's called income tax. What we do in this country, which a lot of countries don't do, by the way, is we tax it a second time. We call that a capital gains tax or a dividends tax. We tax it twice now. Now we're going to have that second tax at the same rate of the original tax. So if you think about it, you're being taxed on the same income twice because it's your income that determines your value, so you're being taxed twice. It's really not the same. It's fine if you're invested in the stock market, and that's where your capital gains are. That's a hard one to argue too much, although it does take liquidity out of the market, because the problem with capital gains tax is being taxed over 28% it's about 28% is that you actually lower the contribution to the Treasury because there will be fewer capital gains. There will be so many fewer capital gains that you actually lose money. The Tax Foundation, taxfoundation.org, I'd refer people to, has done lots of studies on this, and it's very clear. Here that high capital gains rates actually reduce the amount of money that comes to the government. So this is purely political. This has nothing to do with let's generate more revenue, one of the challenges so you have to score this, right? So that means that you're scoring what's the revenue that's going to be produced? You have two types of scoring. One is called static scoring. The other is called dynamic scoring. Static scoring means that we're going to look at the capital gains we already have, and we're just going to, if we double the rate, we're going to double the revenue. So that's assuming that we're going to have the same number and amounts of capital gains as we add at the lower rates, right? Dynamic scoring means that we're going to take into account how people behave motivationally when you double the tax rate. Yeah. Well, let me give you an example. So I'm a business owner. My wealth is in my business primarily. Do you think, really, I'm going to sell that business and take the capital gains immediately and be done with it? But if I have a high capital gains rate, I'm going to sell this over 20 years. So I'm actually going to defer my capital gains as long as I can, because I don't want to pay those high capital gains rates. So that means less money to the government. That's what it means. So it actually reduces on a dynamic scoring if you look at truly how people behave and have behaved in the past. So this isn't a new thing, right? We've had high capital gains rates before. It's not like we don't know. It's not like we haven't seen this before. It's that, for whatever reason, politically, they've decided that, wait a minute, the rich are out of favor. We need to tax the rich more. That's a very popular line, and therefore this is a way to do that, even though it by all calculations that are dynamic, it would actually reduce the amount of funds that come to the Treasury.   Keith Weinhold  22:00 That does make sense about the double taxation. Case in point, with an apartment building, if you increase its noi, you have more income than pay tax that if you increase the noi, therefore you've increased the value of the building. Consequently, the capital gains tax that you might have to pay down the road Tom, maybe current capital gains tax are higher than I thought, is the 28% capital gains tax. Number You mentioned, current or proposed. What is that?   Tom Wheelwright  22:24 Well, right now we have a 24% capital gains tax, okay, we have 20% pure capital gains tax, plus we have a 3.8% net investment income tax. Doesn't apply right now if you're a real estate professional, but applies to everybody else under the Harris proposal formally adopted Biden's plan under the Harris proposal, then you would get a actually 39.6% rate, plus 5% net investment income tax, regardless of whether you're your real estate Professional. So that is 44.6% that's the 45% the 28% number I threw out is that's the number the Tax Foundation says is the maximum you can raise it to without losing revenue.   Keith Weinhold  23:11 That puts things into perspective, as real estate investors, for a long time, we've appreciated substantial tax shelters. What are they being the 1031, tax deferred exchange, like you mentioned, that's been around for more than 100 years. Does that have any realistic shot of being shot down? Of course, Trump shot down substantial parts of the 1031 outside of strict real estate investing.   Tom Wheelwright  23:32 He did, and he actually set the precedent for eliminating it. So by doing that, because he eliminated it on everything except real property, right? I mean, actually, and even before that, there was a time, and there's still ways you can do it with paper assets. But it's not a 1031 exchange. So 1031 exchange has it evolved. It's gotten it's shrunk. It keeps shrinking. Even three or four years ago, no realistic possibility of eliminating 1031 exchange. The challenge, of course, is it would have an impact on the liquidity of the market. However, big deals never do 1031 exchange. Ever you don't see big multifamily developments sold in 1031s. The only time you see that happen is when they've used the Delaware statutory trust. And then you've got some of the investors who use it. And some of them who don't, you can do that in the Delaware statutory trust, but the regular developers, I haven't seen a 1031 done by a syndicator in years. So could they eliminate? Yeah, they could.   Keith Weinhold  24:33 yeah, that would be concerning. Are there any other presidential hopeful proposals that have to do with taxes that are germane, and our audience should know about?   Tom Wheelwright  24:41 my heavens. So the Democrats want to raise taxes by $5 trillion they want those taxes to all be on investors. And the reason I say that is because typically, people who make less than $400,000 which is their threshold, are not major investors. Most of their money goes to spending. Money. If you're making under $400,000 you can easily spend $400,000 a year. Oh, yeah, okay, that's not that hard, especially in today's world. It's a transfer from high net worth individuals who invest their money in long term projects like real estate, like energy, like business, and it's going to be a transfer to people who spend the money and they're going to spend it, my prediction is that if the Democrats get their way, we enter into a long term period of stagflation, high unemployment and high inflation. Because if you transfer $5 trillion from people who aren't spending it in the first place to be able who do spend it. You've got $5 trillion of new money going into the marketplace. Now it could depress asset values. So that could be good for investors, okay? Because you don't have as much cash available to the I'll call it the investor class, to go into real estate. If that's the case, then you have $5 trillion less, right? I mean, it's not a huge portion of the market, but it's big enough. If you take $5 trillion out of investment capital, then that would put a downward pressure on asset prices, which would include real estate.   Keith Weinhold  25:29 we're talking about potential changes to the tax code. It's always a germane discussion, because taxes are the biggest expense in your life. We're talking with Tom wheelwright. We come back, we're going to talk about the real estate tax laws as they are now, for example, how your rent income is taxed differently than your job income, and also, what are taxes like on sports, gambling. You're listening to get rich Education. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold.   Keith Weinhold  26:45 hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge lending group NMLS 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start Now while it's on your mind at Ridgelendinggroup.com that's Ridgelendinggroup.com   Keith Weinhold  27:16 you your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings. If your money isn't making 4% you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest, year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor too. Earn 8% hundreds of others are. Text FAMILY  to 66866, learn more about Freedom Family investments Liquidity Fund on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text FAMILY to 66866.     Blair Singer  28:29 this is Rich Dad, sales advisor, Blair singer. Listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold. And above all, Don't Quit Your Daydream.   Keith Weinhold  28:48 welcome back to get rich education. We're talking with tax pro Tom wheelwright. He's been talking to us about some of the proposals that presidential candidates have here in a campaign season, and whether these things become true or not. Sometimes it seems like just the fact that they're proposing. They're proposed, or if they get instituted at a small level years down the road, it can blow up into something bigger. So Tom tell us more about some of the proposals that are on the table.   Tom Wheelwright  29:12 So we talked about the democratic proposals, which also include things like a $6,000 tax credit for babies. It also includes an enhanced Child Tax Credit. Also includes some other there's lots of provisions in there, right? So it's a transfer. It's just a transfer of money from one group of people to another group of people. On the Republican side, we haven't talked about that now they want to extend the 2017 act. They've been very clear, that's what they want to do, which is an estimate $4 trillion so the other direction. So basically, you're talking about a $9 trillion swing between the two parties. We've never seen this before, ever in a presidential election. Now, that big of a difference, one major tax increase, one party proposing major. Tax increases, the other proposing major tax decreases in the same election. It's something that I'm glad people are paying attention to, because it's a little overdue in this election cycle. Because really, when you talk about policy, that's probably the biggest policy difference between the two parties.   Keith Weinhold  30:18 Now one thing we've learned over time from talking with you is these presidential wish lists, if you want to call them that. Well, these tax changes are things that require congressional approval, and we have a divided Congress currently. So what do you think the prospects are of really any of these things becoming new law?   Tom Wheelwright  30:36 First of all, remember, most of the 2017 act expires at the end of 2025 so something will have to be done next year. They don't have a choice, either that or is just expires, and then we're back to what we had. We have smaller standard deductions, we have alternative minimum tax again. We get a deduction for state income taxes, right? That comes back the one. We lose our 20% Small Business deduction, the only thing that stays permanent is the corporate income tax rate that was permanent in the original bill. So there is going to be something, you're right, if there is a divided Congress, and I say that if, because if one party sweeps, then, especially on the Democratic side, the Republicans don't seem to be as cohesive as the Democrats are on these things. And if the Democrats sweep, I would say, remember, we don't have Kyrsten Sinema, we don't have Joe Manchin from happening. And so would the Democrats sweep all these through, not all of them, but you're going to see a major tax increase for sure, on the Republican side, would you see the 2017 act extended? You'll probably see it, but you're right that otherwise, if it's a divided Congress, we're going to have something in between. We thought we would get a divided Congress in 2020 though, remember and we didn't. So I would not count on a divided Congress   Keith Weinhold  31:59 erstwhile 2017 Trump tax cuts in JOBS Act brought the highest marginal income tax bracket from 39.6% under Obama down to 37% as I remember it. Some thought Biden would take it back up to 39.6 but he hasn't and it's just stated 37 All right, so if Republicans stayed in power, presumably that 37% would go ahead and carry on. That's what we think about as our w2 income. Tom, why don't we talk about the taxes that actually exist today? I think a lot of real estate investors just don't understand the difference between how your w2 job income is taxed versus your taxes on real estate rent. Can you talk to us about that?   Tom Wheelwright  32:42 The reason it's confusing is because they're both considered ordinary income, right? The difference is, is that one is business income and one is non business income. Your wages are non business income. You don't get deductions against non business income, but you do get deductions against business income. So your rental income is considered business income for purposes of the Internal Revenue Code. What that means is you get deductions for taxes. You get deductions for interest, you get deductions for maintenance, you get deductions for depreciation. That's why, when you have your income from your rentals. Typically taxed much lower than your income from your salary, because you get no deductions against your salary like you do against the rentals.   Keith Weinhold  33:30 Maybe it would help to introduce an example here. I don't know if this will complicate things too much or not. If a real estate investor has, say, a single family rental property with $2,000 of rent, income, $1,000 mortgage, $800 in operating expenses. How is that tax that leaves them with $200 of cash flow?   Tom Wheelwright  33:50 You have $200 of cash flow, but then you probably have depreciation on top of that, which is a non cash deduction. And so let's say your depreciation is $500 that means you actually have a $300 loss that, in many cases, you can use to offset income from your w2 so you actually have a negative tax rate. In other words, you're making money from taxes. So actually, is that an increase to your cash flow? So it's a way to think of it is, I have $200 of cash flow from my tenant, if I have a $300 loss for tax purposes, let's say I'm in a 33% tax bracket. I have $100 of income from the government. So that means my cash flow is really after tax. Cash flow is $300 not $200 whereas if you have the same $200 of income from your wages. Let's say you have just the net, right? Let's start with the net. You have $200 well, you're going to be taxed. And let's say that again, your 33% tax rate, that means you're after tax, right, is going to be roughly $125,000 okay, under $30 so $130 we're. $300 so it's like twice as much. In fact, all of that difference is because of the tax law.   Keith Weinhold  35:06 Gosh, that was a great breakdown. I'm really glad that I introduced that example, $2,000 in rent, minus $1,000 for the mortgage, at $800 in operating expenses, again, leaving you with $200 in cash flow with that example. There's probably more going on here with taxes. Because, of course, with that $1,000 mortgage amount, some is going to be principal, some is going to be interest. In part of that interest can be tax deductible.   Tom Wheelwright  35:31 I'm assuming it's all interest, because if it were not, we'd have a higher taxable income. Remember, your principal payment is not deductible. So in your example, I was assuming that the $1,000 mortgage payment was all interest. If it was only $800 then you'd have $400 of income before depreciation. You don't have $100 loss, because, remember, your principal's not deductible, so therefore you have to add that back into your taxable income.   Keith Weinhold  35:58 Will you talk to us about how to apply depreciation to this income versus expenses. Example, is there anything else you can speak to when it comes to that $800 of operating expenses in this example, and those expenses include things like property insurance, property tax itself, maintenance repairs and utilities.   Tom Wheelwright  36:19 Right but also, for example, you might run your rental real estate business out of a home office in your home so you could have a home office deduction. You might have your use your car for the rental purposes, and then you get a deduction for your car. So there are additional expenses that aren't even in that $800 that you could pick up that would not otherwise you'd never get a deduction, and you're really not spending any more money. You're just using it for business, and therefore getting a business deduction. So it's really all about what do I get to deduct? Remember that if you own a home for yourself, you don't get to really deduct the taxes. You have a limit on how much you can deduct. So taxes are limited in deduction. Mortgage Interest may or may not be limited. Remember also that if you have a mortgage, you're limited to how much a $750,000 mortgage being deductible, whereas if you it's a rental property, it could be a seven and a half million dollar and mortgage, and you still get the deduction, so you're not limited like you are. On top of that, again, it's a business, so let's say that you put solar panels on your personal home, you'd get a 30% tax credit, but you'd get no depreciation deduction. If you put solar panels on your rental house, you get the same 30% tax credit, but now you also get a depreciation deduction of probably another 30 $40,000 in the first year. So there's always more deductions in a business setting than a personal setting.   Keith Weinhold  37:56 Well, real estate has been around a really long time. Often laugh when people talk about non conventional investments and put real estate investing in their real estate's about the most conventional investment that we can possibly think of. It's been around a long time. We think about a newer thing that people do with their money, but I sure don't call it investing. That's sports gambling, and it's something that you and I haven't talked about before. Here Tom in 2018 the Supreme Court opened the way for states to legalize sports gambling, and at last check, 38 states, plus DC and Puerto Rico have legalized at least some form of sports gambling. So now it's a more germane conversation for you and I to have than it was a few years ago. Can you tell us about sports gambling, taxes and how it's treated.   Tom Wheelwright  38:41 So remember, all income is taxable. So that includes gambling winnings. They are taxable. In fact, you'll get a 1099 just like you would if you rendered services, you'd get a 1099 or you have interest income, you get 1099 you get 1099 from gambling. What you actually have to show is that you actually have gambling losses. So you have to track those gambling losses to show the IRS that you got gambling losses. But your gambling losses can never be more than your gambling winnings. You never get to generate a tax loss on gambling. What that means is, is that if you win $10,000 during the year, and you can prove that you lost $8,000 during the year, you're going to be taxed on $2,000 but if you can't prove the 8000 you're going to be taxed on 10,000   Keith Weinhold  39:33 so you the gambler, have the burden of tracking this, and I guess tracking your losses. I'm not a gambler. How would one track their losses?   Tom Wheelwright  39:42 I would keep detail ledger. Personally, I probably have a separate bank account just for gambling. Gosh, I'm not a gambler either, so that's what I would do. I would have a bank account just for gambling, by the way. It's also a good way to budget your gambling so they, you know, get in trouble, right? So just set up a separate bank account. Don't put whatever money you say, I'm comfortable with this money, I'm going to gamble with this money put in that bank account, and then you have a ledger that shows the money that went in and the money you lost, the money you won, and don't do anything but gambling in that bank account.   Keith Weinhold  40:15 Hey, that separate account's a great way to hide it from your spouse, not that I'm suggesting. Not bad.   Tom Wheelwright  40:22 Interesting. You went there.   Keith Weinhold  40:23 I'm not a gambler at all. Can't even believe I was thinking that far ahead. What are the gambling tax rates like?   Tom Wheelwright  40:31 They're ordinary income tax rate. So gambling winnings are just ordinary income. They're the same as your wages. They don't have social security taxes their income, just like any other kind of income, nothing special. And this all applies to whether it's sports gambling or general gambling, like lotteries and sweepstakes?  Just remember, all incomes taxable unless the government says it isn't all income, okay? And then there's some types of income that are taxed at special rates, like capital gains, but gambling has no special rates. By the way, gold also has special rate for when you sell gold, it has its own tax rate. Gambling has no special tax rate, so it's just your ordinary income rates.   Keith Weinhold  41:11 To me, it seems like it's hard to break even with gambling over time, and then when you take the tax adjusted earnings that you get from it, you know, over the long term. I just don't think Harris and Bally's Casino is really incentivized to inform gamblers on how punitive this can be with ordinary income tax rates applied to gambling winnings.   Tom Wheelwright  41:30 No, but they will send you your 10909g I guarantee that, that's for sure.   Keith Weinhold  41:34 Well, Tom has helped business owners and real estate investors permanently reduce their taxes. He does it like virtually no one else in the world does by keeping it simple, by helping you find deductions that other CPAs can't do. You can learn more about how Tom and his team can actually help you. You can get a free consultation. You can do that at getricheducation.com/tax. And Tom tell us more about the importance of a business owner or a real estate investor or anybody else really being connected with the right kind of tax professional that can permanently reduce your taxes.   Tom Wheelwright  42:12 So remember that if you want to change your tax, you have to change your facts. It's that simple. What you have to do is you need to know what facts you need to change. That's where a good tax advisor comes in. Is what facts do you need to change in order to change your tax now good news is, wrote tax through wealth. So you got an idea of what that is, but the tax law is very detailed. You must dot your i's cross your t's, so to speak, so that you make sure that you meet all of the rules, such as documentation, for example, for your business expenses. When you do that, you're going to get a better tax result, especially if your tax advisor is also preparing your tax return. Because really, your tax return is just part just how you implement your tax strategy, right? That's how you do it. So we launched, just recently, a franchise of tax advisors, and now we actually have much, really good control, quality control with our tax advisors, and they use our software system. It's very important that you have somebody, if not us, find somebody who you know you can actually give tax free wealth too, and say what cares make sure that we're doing it this way. But if the easy button is really the getricheducation.com/tax.   Keith Weinhold  43:27 Tom Wheelwright,  It's been valuable as always. Thanks so much for coming back onto the show.   Tom Wheelwright  43:33 Thanks, Keith.   Keith Weinhold  43:40 Yeah, key insights from Tom as always, taxes are complicated. Tom's Network helps sort it out for you. We've already covered a lot of ground on this week's episode with raw land values as built, proposed tax plans and how to reduce your tax burden within the existing tax system. Tom and I talked, and he will be back yet again with us later this year for more tax wizardry. Now, just recently here, Kamala Harris proposed a smaller capital gains tax hike than Biden. She's starting to put sort of her own policy spin on things, breaking with the President on the size of a proposed increase on the capital gains tax rate that is a 28% top tax rate when investments are sold for those that make a million dollars plus. So that's more than the current 23.8% top rate, but less than the 39.6% rate that Biden had supported all income is taxable. Therefore it is axiomatic that the fastest way to increase your ROI is to work with a tax advisor that can find you all of the biggest deductions right away. You can read Tom's book Tax Free Wealth, get a good system of documentation going and get connected with Tom's team. At the end of an episode at times, I like to leave you with the most actionable resource on the topic that we covered. You can schedule a free call to see how Tom's team can help you out. At getricheducation.com/tax. That's getricheducation.com/tax. Until next week. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, Don't Quit Your Daydream. 45:33 Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC, exclusively. Keith Weinhold  46:01 The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth, building, getricheducation.com.  

A prominent Florida Builder and #1 Wall Street Journal Best-Selling Author joins us to discuss the benefits of build-to-rent properties, including affordable housing and attractive mortgage rates. He has already done all the work for investors, offering new build income properties that are sometimes rented. We discuss the importance of median value and affordability index in choosing profitable areas for long-term real estate investments. Learn about new build income properties with rate buydowns as low as 3.75%. Important market dynamics and investor strategies, including the trade-offs between cash flow and equity growth. Show Notes: GetRichEducation.com/518 For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 For advertising inquiries, visit: GetRichEducation.com/ad Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREmarketplace.com/Coach Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation   Complete episode transcript:   Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai    Keith Weinhold  00:01 Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, a great way to forecast the future of the real estate market is to look at the level of new building. I've got a surprise to reveal there then a focus on one of the hottest in migration states. That's popular because it promises cash flow for real estate investors today on Get Rich Education.   00:24 Since 2014 the powerful Get Rich Education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads in 188 world nations. He has a list show guest top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki. Get Rich Education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the Get Rich Education podcast. Sign up now for the Get Rich Education podcast, or visit getricheducation.com     Corey Coates  01:09 You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.   Keith Weinhold  01:25 Welcome to GRE from Plains Georgia to White Plains New York and across 188 nations worldwide, you are listening to Get Rich Education. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, we are an educational platform. And if you haven't yet, I really suggest that you spend 100 hours learning how to invest in real estate. The average person works 2000 hours a year for 40 years. That's 80,000 hours of working for money. I implore you to spend 100 hours learning how to keep it and grow it and leverage it and create income and tax advantages from it. 80,000 hours of lifetime work, 100 hours learning real estate investing. Now, when someone like a presidential candidate produces, still vague talk about building 3 million starter homes in four years. That actually appears just about impossible. Within the existing structure. We would need 2 million housing starts per year from 2025 to 2028, in order to overcome our existing shortfall. And we haven't exceeded 1.8 million in any year in the moderate era, and that's even when demand was extraordinary and interest rates were low. Just you know, look at the reality of what home builders need to actually do, and this is even if they don't have any excessive not in my backyard. Pushback, builders have to procure land, meaning they need to lay out cash far before building, and then they need to jump through zoning and building hoops in counties and cities, in towns, in communities, and sometimes those hoops can reach preposterous levels with substantial delays. Builders need to secure financing, and for most, interest rates are still in the 9% plus range. And then builders need to acquire a whole local network of contractors and subcontractors, and then they need to keep those contractors and subcontractors busy, or else they're gonna lose those workers. So builders have to work to maintain their teams once they found them. And if that's not enough, this is all amidst a historically bad skilled labor shortage, meaning those workers can be enticed to go work for somebody else. As you know, skilled worker demand far exceeds skilled worker supply. So for builders, it takes years of planning and development. In a lot of cases, they sit on land for many years before the market conditions are right for the actual build. Well, look, at least there is finally acknowledgement among our highest elected officials that we do need to address the core problem, but our elected officials proposals aren't really so good, and our country's housing problem is largely a regulatory issue. Later today, we'll talk to a builder that's already done all of this for you, so it's not preconstruction that has new build income properties complete, available sometimes even rented already, and they help you buy down your mortgage rate to a level that's really low. You'll soon learn about it. But first, let's talk more about adding new housing supply in the larger apartment segment. It's something that can help you see the future here, but it isn't getting enough tension outside of multifamily industry circles, and that is the fact that apartment starts are plummeting to 11 year lows. And this is a real surprise to some people, multifamily completions are outpacing starts by the widest margin since 1975 and I mention this because, you know, you probably keep hearing and reading about how apartment construction is at all time highs, but really, that is a story from two years ago. It takes about two years to go from an apartment construction start to a completion. Well, today we're seeing that huge surge of apartment starts two years ago morph into completions. That's the piece to be aware of here. And to give you some idea about the new apartment building, slow down through July, we have completed 314,000 multifamily units, and we started just 193,000 units. That's all according to census stats that year to date. Start total is the nation's lowest since 2013 when we were just building our way out of the global financial crisis. Also a larger share of apartment supply. In this next cycle, it's likely to be affordable housing, because that's where the tax incentives are in the last wave of apartment construction a few years ago, it was more higher end stuff, and the result is today, apartments are oversupplied in a lot of markets, leading to falling apartment rents, or just somewhat stable and frozen apartment rents in heavily overbuilt places like Austin, Texas and a lot of others. But this slowdown in New Starts of larger apartments is why some have bullishness on the multifamily outlook for 2026 and beyond supply is the biggest headwind for apartment investors today. While it is an enormous tailwind for renters, it's good for them, but those dynamics appear likely to shift again. It took an almost perfect storm of variables to push apartment construction to 50 year highs, and it's difficult to see a scenario where construction could re-accelerate back to those peaks. Today's apartment completion levels could mark a high. It's generational. You may never see it again. So to summarize, in the world of large apartments, supply is still up, even outpacing demand in a lot of markets. It all came from a big building wave that began when interest rates were low two years ago. They're mostly upper end places. Apartment syndicators also got hit with higher rates that reset on them, and you've seen the value of some apartment buildings fall 30%. It is bad. But long term, I expect that apartments are going to be fine. New lease ups are absorbing what's out there. The demographics show that renters will continue occupying apartments. Interest rates have already fallen and they're expected to keep falling, and you don't have very many new apartment starts, it's that last piece that a lot of people aren't aware of. So that's the forecast over the next few years for five plus unit apartments. When it comes to the market dynamics for one to four unit properties. I'm going to discuss this with one of the voices of GRE marketplace today. They are a build to rent provider building new construction, single family homes, duplexes and fourplexes for tenants that they sell to investors. Hey, I'd like to welcome in a home builder and property provider serving Florida, basically statewide, known as North America's leading build to rent property developer, and he believes in what he builds and offers others, because he's been a real estate investor himself for more than two decades. Hey, Jim, welcome back onto the show.   Jim Sheils  09:45 Keith, good to be here. Thanks for having me.   Keith Weinhold  09:47 Jim, we have a lot of exciting things to talk about. What you're doing in Florida. You've really helped out a lot of our investors and followers so far. You have some really interesting things to tell us about. Rate buydowns and just how low those rate buydowns are on some new build properties. And I sure want to get to that. But first, why don't we just pull back big picture, and from the 30,000 foot national view, before we talk about Florida, what are some of the important dynamics you see in the real estate market here in late 2024   Jim Sheils  10:16 Yeah, it's been interesting. The media is always late to the party, as you know, Keith, I've seen some interesting stats. You know, affordability nationwide has gone from 480,000 about eight months ago, and now it's down to about 405, so we've already seen the affordability index come down nationwide, and it's hit really well here in Florida. One of the reasons why is there's definitely been some price adjustments on higher priced property in Maine markets, Miami, Orlando, Tampa, areas that we don't build because the numbers didn't work. So that's been really good to see that affordability also, rates are just starting to drop. But here's an interesting thing. A year ago, Keith, the average mortgage payment for the average person buying a home, was 57% of their total income. Now that has dropped to about 44% of their total income. So I'm always looking at affordability and overall median pricing, and that's been a really, really good thing for us. As I had said, second tier markets where you can get affordability, but also great amenities, great lifestyle is where we've always focused on building, and it seems like that is really continuing to have a solid pulse. I love visiting some of those bigger markets, you know, taking my kids to Disney, but I'm glad we stayed out of there, because it seemed a little more temperamental, and we're glad we're in the more second tier markets.   Keith Weinhold  11:39 You cited an affordability index there earlier. Now, affordability still, historically, is not that good, but it's not as bad as it used to be. Tell us more about that index.   Jim Sheils  11:49 Yeah, I always have looked at, you know, the affordability index. Let's just use an example, Orange County, California. I think the median value of a home there is $1.1 million. In Jacksonville it's 305, and so you get a score for based on what is the average family income per price of the home. And it's kind of like your report card. And there's certain areas that have an A, and there's certain areas that have an F. You know, we have lots of investors come to us with you guys too, from New York or Seattle or Orange County. And this is something I look at, what is the affordability index, and just know how they figure out the score on your affordability index. What's the average price of the home in that area, and what is the average family income for that area? And the correlation of those two numbers shows whether you have a good score or bad score.   Keith Weinhold  12:39 And now that we've looked at the national picture somewhat, you mentioned some of the major metro markets in Florida, some of which you specifically stay out of, and that's simply because the numbers don't work for long term rentals. They don't provide cash flow. Tell us more, just in general, about some of the areas that you've chosen and why is there profitable for long term real estate investors?   Jim Sheils  13:03 Yeah, this median value, this affordability index, is so key when we're able to get into home still, you know, Jacksonville is barely over 300,000 as the media now, we're able to cash flow right off the bat. So like Jacksonville is still as the population growth, the economic growth is occurring. It's desirable coastal community, and supply and demand is in our favor. We don't have enough housing, so that's where we focus all of those factors, not only here, but on a smaller scale, in Palm Coast, in Ocala, where we've done a ton with the GRE community. And then southwest Florida. We don't go to Southeast Florida, too expensive, too overbuilt, too high on insurance, but that Greater Fort Myers area, which did experience the highest growth anywhere in the country during the pandemic, which was interesting to watch, we're still seeing a lot of good fundamentals down there. And again, at that affordable range, it makes a big difference when you're buying at a medium priced home is, let's say 320,000 opposed to 580,000 makes a huge difference to whether it will cash flow off the bat or have a negative cash flow. And as you know, Keith, even though we're doing new construction high growth areas, we want to see app cash flow right away.   Keith Weinhold  14:13 Now, you are a builder, you are adding much needed inventory to the national housing supply, where we've had a shortage of millions of units per years, depending on what source you cite in quote there, a lot of the estimates as to the housing shortage really are all over the place. But many sources state that Florida inventory levels just statewide. Here they are back about to pre pandemic levels. So they have recovered. They are back to about 2019 levels. And I think one important thing for people to remember is, well, 2019 was a pretty good, balanced housing market.   Jim Sheils  14:50 It was a normal market. We liked 2019 you know, that was a good market. There was growth, but it was sustainable, more predictable, steady. So I'm happy to be back in 2019. You know, 2020 21 levels there were, there was less than a month's worth of inventory on the MLS that it was dire. Yeah, it was just such a skewed thing. And you've studied this for a long time. So everyone if you say, Oh well, it went from this to this. I love how you talk about 2019 because by all statistics that was a very normal market here in Florida. So we're happy to get back to that, because you have to have a certain amount of inventory level to balance the playing field. We want to see growth, but I'm more of a long term player, as you know, we don't need to see huge spikes, because that can get a little volatile.   Keith Weinhold  15:36 Now, as a builder, talk to us about builder sentiment since, like we talked about before, we are in a falling interest rate environment, mortgage rates are already down about one and a half percent from the recent highs, and the Fed hasn't even begun lowering rates yet. So talk to us more about what those lower rates do to build their sentiment. And we're not just talking about rates for buyers here, which matter, but it's the rate that builders like you that have to pay the typically factory in here too.   Jim Sheils  16:06 Yeah, it's an interesting market right now, Keith, and here's something I want to give great encouragement from as you know, we do build some for the institutions and the larger groups. The little guy, the small investor, has the guerrilla warfare advantage over them right now, because, as you know, we right now have announced financing. We're able to have this builder forward commitment where we're buying large tranches of money for residential mortgages. That means, you know, individuals like we work with all the time, Keith, that buy a few properties, we can get them this incredible financing right now, at 3.75 we're beating the market. You know, you go into a B of A and try to get a duplex finance, you're probably looking at six and three quarters. And we're able to do that because it's residential real estate. Some of our bigger guys, they would buy all of our inventory. But we can't get a institution qualified for these individual investor loans for residential real estate. They have to go to the commercial world. And as you know right now, Keith, the commercial world is screwy. People aren't lending. The rates are really high, and even these big guys have to sharpen their pencils and do their numbers and they go, Gosh, it's not panning out until rates drop. So that means these bigger groups are on the sidelines. And we all hear the complaints, all the big guys are buying all the properties they own 40% well, they're on the sidelines, and our little troopers and investors are building their portfolios in ways they cannot so it's exciting to see now for us too. What's lucky and unlucky is a lot of good builders out there that we're friends with. They can't get financing. The banks have gotten so stringent. So they might even have a good balance sheet and a good track record, but the banks are getting really stringent where Chris and I are. As you know, we were partially acquired by Sumitomo forestry about a year and a half ago. They're a 331 year old company, and when we decided to team up with them, they said, We love Florida and we love build to rent, go, and so now we have zero bank debt, and they've given us a green light to build out all of our inventory. We have five, over 5000 lots in Florida, and we don't have the bank slowdowns. So to find a good builder, you have to make sure they have financing in place, because they're going to be a great builder out there that just can't get the funding to do the job for you. So that's another thing you want to look for.   Keith Weinhold  18:16 Right. And last time I checked, you've got more than 925 current independent income property investors, many of those whom are GRE listeners. Well, we're going to talk more about just how low those rates are. Who participates in the buy down? I already know that most of it's the builder, and just part of it is you, the investor. You're listening to get residuation. We're talking about Florida, build to rent property more when we come back, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge lending group  NMLS 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start Now while it's on your mind at ridgelendinggroup.com That's ridgelendinggroup.com  Your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings. If your money isn't making 4% you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest, year in and year out, instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their. Investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor too, earn 8% hundreds of others are text FAMILY to 66866, learn more about Freedom Family investments Liquidity Fund on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text, FAMILY to 66866.     Garrett Sutton  20:28 This is Rich Dad advisor, Garret Sutton, to grow your wealth. Listen to the always valuable. Get Rich Education.   Keith Weinhold  20:45 Welcome back to Get Rich Education we're talking about half of progress real estate investing in high growth Florida, with a renowned build to rent provider there. And I think a lot of this really comes down to trust with the fluctuating interest rate environment that we've had, some people don't trust certain builders or that investor to go ahead and put down a deposit on a vacant lot and wait 12 months or more for it to be built. But we're not talking about pre construction here.   Jim Sheils  21:16 No, no. Since we steamed up with Sumitomo, you know a lot of good builders again, they can't even start the project until they have a a buyer with a deposit down. That's the requirement for the bank to give them the money to start building. We don't have bank requirements, so we're building on our own dime, and so we are having properties completed before you even have to make an offer on them. So these are finished properties, sometimes a tenant already in place. I know just this month, there's been a few GRE people very happily stepping into pre rented homes. So you don't have to wait that period. If you're ready to move your money or have a 1031 exchange, we can fulfill those no problem, and close within 30 days Our in house financing, Keith, which I know we're about to go over, I want to make sure people know this is for not only our single families, but our duplexes and our quads as well.   Keith Weinhold  22:02 Tell us more about that in house financing that's something of great interest to people, and especially with these mortgage rate buyouts.   Jim Sheils  22:09 Yeah, everyone says, Oh, I wish I had locked into a mortgage before June of 2022 right? I mean, for every time we heard that, Keith, well, now you can and what we're able to do since we have the balance sheet we have now, with teaming up with this bigger company, banks will allow us to do what's called a builder forward commitment and buy large tranches of money. We're in the money buying business, I guess, now, and we have to commit to large amounts of money, but by doing that, we're able to pay fees upfront to buy down the mortgages. So right now, our most popular rate is 3.75. You as the buyer, and these are called discount points, which I've heard Keith talk about. You're bringing in a little under two discount points to get the 3.75 rate. And you say, Okay, well, Jim, we're bringing in a little less than two points. What are you bringing in? We're not really supposed to talk about that, but here's what I can tell you, do this test, go to one of your mortgage friends, or your B of A or Wells Fargo, and ask it what it will take for you to pay to buy down a rate for 3.75. Now, first of all, they will not allow you to do that much. We are on a more high volume schedule that will allow us to do that, but let's say, if they would, here's what the feedback we've got. If you were to try to do this on your own, Keith, you or I just walking into our bank, you would have to pay anywhere from 12 to 15 points to make this happen. Gosh, and that was the advantage of working as a collective group like we do together, you and I in our investor community, because now that we're able to do volume, it benefits us   Keith Weinhold  23:39 all. No one really knows where interest rates are going to go. I think it's pretty foolish to try to predict them, but very few people think they're ever going to drop to the levels that we saw during the depths of the pandemic, 3.75% if you get locked in there, it's pretty unlikely that the future market is going to meet that down the road at all and tell us more about that product type, the single family homes, duplexes and fourplexes that this is available on. And of course, they're all new build.   Jim Sheils  24:09 Yeah, we do a combination of new build on all of these. We found, Keith, a lot of build to rent. Companies really only focused on the single family home, but we found, you know, to increase rental yield and overall returns. There was really a lack in the market for duplexes in residential areas and quads, again, and those are close to commercial deals, without the commercial financing, they allow more affordable rent in more residential areas that people can afford and want to be in. And we found through the pandemic, these had a greater calling to them than, let's say, a large apartment complex. You know, people want to be a little more spread out, have their own yard, like in a duplex, and they get that there, but they get it at a fraction of the price that a complete single family home would be at. So we found, as you know, most of our investors, our average client, buys three to eight properties with us, and no surprise, they. Buy a mixture of single family duplex and quads. I know we agree on this. Keith, the single family home has had the best history of all of great equity appreciation, and the duplex might lag behind that a little bit, but it's got a better cash flow. So I will always do little trade offs and combo my own portfolio to make up for two of those. And that's what our counselors usually coach our people. I know yours do as well.   Keith Weinhold  25:23 Yeah, the economies of scale for the real estate investor really can be there long term with duplexes and fourplexes, and you're really helping fill a need. Some months ago, I talked about the mmm multi families, missing middle, about how so few duplexes, triplexes and fourplexes are being built today, as compared to when you had about three times as much construction in those property types that you did in the 1980s a lot of that's really gone away. You're really bringing it back. We talk about some of the areas where these are built. You know, Jim years ago? Well, really about 10 years ago, when I began this show, I was often talking about how I want to be invested in Metro statistical areas that have a population of at least 500,000 to 1 million people, in order to get a diversity of economic situations there, because you do need rent paying tenants. But so much has changed since then, starting four to five years ago, with the work from home movement, I'm more open to more outlying areas than I had been previously. So tell us about some of these areas that you choose to build in. In Florida.   Jim Sheils  26:29 yeah, you know our hub market where we started doing rehabs many, many, many years ago was Jacksonville, Florida. Yeah, and we still are headquartered here, but Jacksonville, again, is the most affordable coastal city, I believe, still on the East Coast, which brings great fundamentals. It hits both of your things, Keith, where it is larger, but it has more of a sprawl and that larger population and the fundamentals look really well again, that overall median price is still very low. And we branch down to Palm Coast, which is a little more of a higher end area, but a bedroom community, to Jacksonville, the silent soldier, the one that really surprised us the most. I think you remember, this was Ocala. In fact, when Christopher said, Do you want to go start building Ocala, and this is about a decade ago, I said, Wow, Ocala, isn't there only, like, some horses out there? Yeah, now he's a horse guy. So he laughed, and he said, Oh, sure enough, I put my foot in my mouth. But Ocala, the amount of growth that we've seen out there has been incredible. And Ocala is really well placed because it's just below Gainesville, where the, you know, there's the medical centers, the university, and it's just north of the villages, which is the second largest retirement community and growing. Not only that, it has its own economic infrastructure, but it's really well placed in the difference of a price of a home for a starter family in Ocala compared to like Northern Tampa. There is no comparison. You're talking half. So we like that. And also with rents, it's got a great lifestyle. And then southwest Florida again, Southwest Florida, Keith, we're very lucky that we took some risk there. A lot of builders would like to be building down there, but as you remember, we took some big risks in 2020 we talked to some of our friends and said, this can be really good or really bad for real estate. We went with the really good and we loaded up on, well, a lot, over $20 million worth of land at the pre jump prices. Now we're into land right down there so we can get them built right for you guys still make a margin for ourselves that other people that they're trying to get land today, they just can't do and Southwest Florida has been a really good market for us. Had that hurricane there a few years ago, and all of our new construction properties did well. In fact, of almost 300 properties that were under construction, we had four that needed insurance claims, and those four, Keith, well, we had just put up the freestanding walls. We hadn't been able to tie the roof on before the winds and the winds knocked the walls over, and that's it. But there was no flooding, and that's why you get an insurance break. And all the markets that we're in, we always hear, Oh, you can't get insurance in Florida. And I kind of giggle and say, on which properties? Because there is a very different treatment for a new construction property built 2004 or newer, compared to a property built 1957 on lower ground.   Keith Weinhold  29:02 Yeah this is such an important thing to bring up. Property insurance premiums have been hiked substantially on Florida, existing, older build properties, not the post 2004 ones like Jim is talking about here and yeah, for those that don't know, Ocala, there in Central Florida is known as an equestrian area for horses and your business partner, Chris, that's his big hobby. So yeah, when you first went there, you were with Chris. You were like, are you just trying to get there because you want to be around horses more and what? But now there's actually a good fundamental reason for this, where it makes sense to build there. Well, Jim, why don't you talk about how you've specifically helped one of our listeners, or the typical buyer there in how that process looks, including an approximate timeline to get them from the time where they submit an offer all the way through to closing.   Jim Sheils  29:52 Yeah. Well, you know, our team and your team work together. We want to make sure we set people's goals and expectations. Up front. What are you looking for? What are you trying to get into? If someone says to me, Look, I'm looking to get into a great starter home with the lowest basis and highest cash flow, I'm gonna say, Okay, let's look at Ocala. They say, Look, we're looking more long term. I'm more of an equity growth player. Yeah, I want cash flow. I'm gonna say, Okay, let's look at Palm Coast, or southwest Florida. Together with our teams and our property counselors, we try to assess what are your needs and where are you wanting to go. Now, all of our vehicles will get through there, but some a little better than others, depending on the plan you want to put together. And so once we do do that, what we like to do is go through properties that seem to match what they're most wanting. We'll go through the performance. We'll look up the site maps, we'll go through the different fundamentals of that direct area, and then, if it seems to make sense, first thing we got to do is get you pre qualified with our in house lender. All is that a go? Well, then we can make an offer, get it in. We have a whole onboarding process. You know that we've done hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of time, and now we're over. I know I laugh because we talked recently and you said, I think you're at a 925. Investors, we're over 1000 now, so we're continuing to grow. But again, we've tried to make it fluid, where our people are part of the process, but never alone. We answer the questions on the financing help get you the directionals on the insurance now, you can use whatever insurance company you want. 99% of them use the company that we recommend. We have no financial affiliation with them. But everyone asked years ago when Chris and I started this, well, who do you use for insurance? Who do you use? So we just gave them who we used, and this person usually undercuts and better coverage than most. So all those pieces Keith with going through that and again, this is about a 30 day process of getting qualified, once you pick the property, submitting the contract with your 10% deposit, doing your onboarding for Property Management and Insurance pieces. And then, obviously you don't have to come here to see us for closing. We do all of our traveling closings for you. And most important thing I like to set up with PM is, where do you want the money wired?   Keith Weinhold  31:59 That's a great question. Well, yeah, I mean, this is a great answer for so many of our listeners, those super attractive rate buy downs. And then the big thing is, is, in many cases, you're not waiting and waiting and waiting months for the build to take place. Well, Jim, before I tell our listeners how they can connect with you over there, do you have any last thoughts overall with anything that we did touch on or did not.   Jim Sheils  32:22 I want to encourage people, if they're not looking to get in the next to real estate in the next two to three years, not a big deal. But if you're looking to get in sometime over the next year, then I would really look at what's happening, things you talk about with the rates and the interest, because I do believe that institutional money within the next six months, it'll be interesting when we reconnect, Keith, that are going to start coming in and buying up more residential real estate. However, their hands are tied right now. They cannot get the financing that the smaller guy can. So whether it's with us or someone else, take advantage. Take advantage. David and Goliath, this is a great opportunity where the big guys cannot keep up with you, because they can't get the financing and insurance rates that you can so take advantage.   Keith Weinhold  33:03 Well, I specifically wanted to have you on today because it is an opportunistic time. They serve Florida with new builds. Learn more about their properties and even get some under contract. If you so wish, you can do so by contacting your GRE investment coach. If you don't have one yet, you can do so at GREmarketplace.com it is free or at GREmarketplace.com/florida. Jim, it's been great having you back on the show.   Jim Sheils  33:32 Thanks having me. Keith, good seeing you.   Keith Weinhold  33:39 Yeah, an excellent update on Florida build to rent properties. A lot of our listeners are asking about these new build properties with 3.75% mortgage interest rates, and you are not the majority participant in the rate buy down either. Next week, who I consider the foremost tax authority in the entire world will be back here with us. Tom Wheelwright is going to discuss presidential candidates, tax plans, whether you should be scared about a tax on unrealized gains and a lot more. Also on a future episode, I'm going to talk about the land that is the vacant land that comes along with your rental property, what to look out for and what to avoid. It's really a little discussed subject that we haven't talked about here before. To learn more about Florida, build to rent property with those attractive rate buydowns, start at GRE marketplace.com Until next week, every host, Keith Weinhold, Don't Quit Your Daydream.   34:45 Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have. Potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC, exclusively.   Keith Weinhold  35:13 The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Getricheducation.com

Futurist, Technologist and Author of many titles including the classic “Wealth and Poverty”, George Gilder joins us to discuss supply side economics and the transformative potential of using graphene material in various industries including real estate. We discuss economic growth measured by time prices, showing that private sector progress is faster than GDP estimates. Learn about graphene's properties, including its strength and conductivity, and its potential to transform various industries. Graphene is a single layer of carbon atoms that is 200 times stronger than steel, 1000 times more conductive than copper and the world’s thinnest material. Resources: getgilder.com Show Notes: GetRichEducation.com/517 For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 For advertising inquiries, visit: GetRichEducation.com/ad Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREmarketplace.com/Coach Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Complete episode transcript:   Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai    Keith Weinhold  00:01 Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold. I'm talking about the various economic scare tactics out there, like the BRICS, the FDIC and the housing crash. What lower interest rates mean? How our nation's $35 trillion debt has gone galactic. Then today's guest is a legend. He's a technologist and futurist. It tells us about today's promise of graphene in real estate all today on get rich education.  when you want the best real estate and finance info, the modern Internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls and you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies disclaimers. Oh, at no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content in your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life. See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of ours myself. It's got a dash of humor, and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple text, GRE to 66866, and when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course, completely free. It's called the Don't quit your Daydream letter, and it wires your mind for wealth. Make sure you read it. Text GRE to 66866, text GRE to 66866.   Corey Coates  01:40 you're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.   Keith Weinhold  01:56 Welcome to GRE from Dunedin, Florida to Dunedin, New Zealand and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you are listening to get rich education, where real estate investing is our major. That's what we're here for, with minors in real estate economics and wealth mindset. You know, as a consumer of this media type as you are, it's remarkable how often you've probably encountered these de facto scare tactics, like the BRICS are uniting and it will take out the dollar and it's just going to be chaos in the United States. You might know that BRICS, B, R, I, C, S is the acronym for Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa. Do you know how hard it is to get off the petro dollar and how hard it is for the BRICS, which is basically more than just those five countries, it's dozens of countries. How hard it is for them to agree on anything with things as various as their different economies, and they'll have different customs and currencies. I mean, sheesh, just for you to get yourself and three friends all to agree to meet at the same coffee shop at the same time, takes, like a Herculean effort, plus a stroke of luck, and all full of you are like minded, so I wouldn't hold your breath on the dollar hyper inflating to worthlessness, although it should slowly debase. What about the scare tactic of the FDIC is going to implode, and this could lead to bank closures and widespread societal panic. Well, the FDIC, which stands for Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, they're the body that backs all of the US bank deposits, including yours, and it's steered by their systemic resolution Advisory Committee. Well, there are $9 trillion in bank deposits, and is backed by only a few 100 billion in FDIC cash, so there aren't nearly enough dollars to back the deposits. So can you trust your money in the bank? That's a prevalence scare tactic, but my gosh, if nothing else, history has shown that the government will step in to backstop almost any crisis, especially a banking related one, where one failure can have a cascading effect and make other institutions fall. I'm not saying that this is right, but time has proven that the government does and will step in, or the common scare tactic in our core of the world that is the eminent housing price crash. And I define a crash as a loss in value of 20% or more. Do you know how difficult this would be to do anytime soon? Housing demand still outstrips supply. Today's homeowners have loads of protective equity, an all time high of about 300k so they're not walking away from their homes. Inflation has baked higher replacement costs into the real estate cake, and now mortgage rates have fallen one and a half percent from this cycle's highs, and they are poised to fall further, so a housing price crash is super unlikely, and a new scare tactic for media attention seems to be this proposal by a future presidential hopeful about a tax on unrealized gains. Now Tom wheelwright is the tax expert. He's returning to the show with us again soon here, so maybe I'll ask him about it. But a tax on unrealized gains is politically pretty unpopular. It would be a mess to impose, and a lot of others have proposed it in the past as well, and it has not gone anywhere. Plus tax changes need congressional approval, and we have a divided Congress, there's a small chance that attacks on unrealized gains could come to fruition, but it would be tough. It's probably in the category of just another media scare tactic, much like the BRICS and the shaky FDIC banking structure had a housing price crash. I like to keep you informed about these things, and at times we do have guests with a disparate opinion from mine on these things. Good to get a diversity of opinions, but it's best not to go too deep into these scare tactics that are really unlikely to happen any time soon. Well, there was a party going on 10 days ago at what all affectionately dub club fed in Jacksonhole Wyoming, I don't know what the club fed cover charge was, but fortunately, we did not have to watch Janet "Grandma" Yellen dance at Club fed and and share. Jerome Powell, yes, he finally caught a rate cut buzz. He announced that the time has come for interest rate cuts, and as usual, he didn't offer specifics. Total rager. what a party. later this month, he's going to render the long awaited decision, which now seems to be, how much will cut rates by a quarter point or a half point? Did you know that it's been four and a half years since the Fed lowered rates? Yeah, that was March of 2020, at the start of the pandemic. And then we know what happened back in 2022 and 2023 they hiked rates so much that they needed trail mix, a sleeping bag and some Mountain House freeze dried meals to go along with their steady hiking cycle. Interest rates now, though have been untouched for over a year, it's been an interesting year for the Fed and rates many erroneously thought there would be six or more rate cuts this year. And what about Maganomics? Trump recently said that if he becomes president, he should be able to weigh in on fed decisions that would depart from a long time tradition of Fed independence from executive influence. Historically, they've been separated.   Donald Trump  08:26 The Federal Reserve's a very interesting thing, and it's sort of gotten it wrong a lot. And he's tending to be a little bit later on things. He gets a little bit too early and a little bit too late. And, you know, that's very largely a it's a gut feeling. I believe it's really a gut feeling. And I used to have it out with him. I had it out with him a couple of times, very strongly. I fought him very hard. And, you know, we get along fine. We get along fine. But I feel that, I feel the president should have at least say in there. Yeah, I feel that strongly. I think that, in my case, I made a lot of money. Iwas very successful, and I think I have a better instinct than in many cases, people that would be on the Federal Reserve or the chairman.   Keith Weinhold  09:10 Those Trump remarks were just a few weeks ago, and then shortly afterward, he seemed to walk those comments back, but he did say that he would not reappoint. DJ J-pal, to the economic turntables. It's a long standing economic argument as well about whether an outside force like the Fed should set interest rates at all, which is the price of money, rather than allowing the rate to float with the free market as lenders and borrowers negotiate with each other. I mean, no one's out there setting the price of oil or refrigerators or grapes, but it is pretty remarkable that the Fed has signaled that rate cuts are eminent when inflation is still 2.9% well above their 2% target. But let's be mindful about the Fed's twofold mission, what they call their dual mandate. It is stable prices and maximum employment. Well, the Fed's concern is that second one, it's that the labor market has slowed and see the way it works is pretty simple. Lower interest rates boost employment because it's cheaper for businesses to borrow money that encourages them to expand and hire, which is exactly how lower interest rates help the labor market. That's how more people get hired, and this matters because you need a tenant that can pay the rent. So the bottom line here is to expect lower interest rates on savings accounts, HELOCs, credit cards and automobile loans. What this means to real estate investors is that lower mortgage rates are eminent, although the change should be slow. Two years ago, mortgage rates rose faster than they're going to fall. Now, one thing that lower interest rates can do is lower America's own debt. Servicing costs and America's public debt is drastic. Now, between 35 and $36 trillion in fact, to put our debt into perspective, it has gone galactic. And I mean that in an almost literal sense, because look, if you line up dollars, dollar bills, which are about six inches long, if you line those up end to end from Earth, how far do you think that they would reach? How about to the moon? Oh, no, if you line up dollars end to end, they would stretch beyond the moon. Okay, let's see how far we can follow them out through the solar system. They would breeze past Mars, which is 140 million miles away, the next planet out Jupiter. Oh, our trail of dollar bills would extend beyond that. Next up is Saturn and its ring. The dollar bills would reach beyond that. We're getting to the outer planets now, Uranus still going. Neptune, okay, Neptune is about $30 trillion bills away, and we would have to go beyond that then. So our 35 to $36 trillion of national debt would almost reach Pluto that's galactic. That's amazing. That's bad, and it probably means we have to print more dollars in order to pay back the debt, which is, of course, long term inflationary. And I don't know what's stopping us from going from $36 trillion up to say, 100 trillion, gosh. next week here on the show, we're talking about real estate investing in one of the long time best and still hottest real estate investor states, and then later on, we've got brilliant tax wizard Tom wheelwright returning, as we know here at GRE real estate pays five ways, and if you have any Spanish speaking family or friends, I've got a great way for them to consume all five video modules. It's an AI converting my voice to Spanish in these videos, we have a Spanish speaker here on staff at Get Rich Education, and she said the dub is pretty good. Well, the entire package, real estate pays five ways in Espanol is condensed into a powerful one hour total, all five videos a course, all in one wealth building hour. It's free to watch. There's no email address to enter or anything you can tell your Spanish speaking family and friends, or maybe your multilingual and your primary language is Spanish. That is it getricheducation.com/espanolricheducation.com/espanol or a shorter way to get to the same pageis getricheducation.com/espricheducation.com/esp, that's getricheducation.com/esp.richeducation.com/esp.  This week's guest is one of the first people I ever heard discussing the blockchain and cryptocurrency 15 years ago, and then he was early on AI. What got my attention is his education about a promising construction material for building new real estate, though, I expect that our discussion will delve outside of real estate today as well. Let's meet the incomparable George Gilder. This week's guest is the co founder at the Discovery Institute, discovery.org original pillar of supply side economics, former speechwriter to both Presidents Reagan and Nixon. And he's the author of the classic book on economics called Wealth and Poverty. Today he's at the forefront of technological breakthroughs. He's a Harvard grad. He wears a lot of stripes. I've only mentioned a few. Hey, welcome to GRE George Gilder.   George Gilder  15:09 right there better here.   Keith Weinhold  15:11 It's so good to host you, George, in both your writings and your influences on people like President Reagan, you champion supply side economics. And I think of supply side economics as things like lower taxes, less regulation and free trade. We had someone in the Reagan administration here with us a few months ago, David Stockman. He championed a lot of those same things. But go ahead and tell us more about supply side economics and what that means and how that's put into practice.   George Gilder  15:43 Well, it really begins with human creativity in the image of your Creator, essence of supply side economics now super abundant. I mean supply side economics triumphs. We had the whole information technology revolution ignited during the Reagan years and now dominates the world economy and gives the United States seven out of the top 10 companies in market cap. 70% of global corporate market cap is American companies because of supply side economics amazing, and that's why it's distressing to see supply side economics, with its promise of super abundance and prosperity and opportunity, Give way to narrow nationalistic calculations and four tenths of war. I mean, all these Jews are at the forefront. Today, in time, we're going to see human creativity once again prevail in my books, Life After Capitalism is my latest book, my new paradigm is graphene. Graphene is a single layer of carbon atoms, two dimensional layer of carbon atoms that is 200 times stronger than steel, 1000 times more conductive than copper. It switches and the terahertz trillions of times a second, rather than the billions of times a second that our current silicon chips which and you mix it with concrete, the concrete comes 35% stronger, just parts per million of graphene mixed with concrete yields some material that's 35% stronger than ordinary concrete. You mix a parts per million of graphene with asphalt, the roads don't get potholes in the winter. It's radically Abate, but it conducts signals so accurately. If you go on YouTube, you can find a mouse and said it's spinal cord severed completely, injected with graphene, the spinal signals transmitted so accurately that the you see the mouse doing cartwheels by the end of the YouTube measure. I mean, it's material that's going to transform all industries, from real estate to medicine to surgery to electronics. Electronics been kind of the spearhead of our economy, of the transformation and electronics may be more significant than any other domain.   Keith Weinhold  18:49 Well, this is a terrific overview of all the contributions you're making to both the economic world and the technology world with what you told us about right there. And I do want to ask you some more about the graphene and the technology later. But you know, if we bring it back to the economics, it was in your classic book, Wealth and Poverty, which sold over a million copies, where you espouse a lot of the same things that you still espouse today in your more recent books, that is, capitalism begins with giving, we can often think of it that way. As a real estate investor is where we need to give tenants a clean, safe, affordable, functional property before we profit. Capitalism begins with giving.   George Gilder  19:32 Absolutely. That's a crucial debate I had with Ayn Rand The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged and I say, capitalism is subsist on altruism. I'm concerned for the interests of others, imaginative anticipation of the needs of others. It's an altruistic, generous system, and from that generosity. Stems the amazing manifestations of super abundance that which I've been writing about recently. And super abundance shows, measured by time prices, how many hours a typical worker has to spend to earn the goods and services that sustain its life. Yeah, that's where the real cost has time. Yeah, time is money. Money is time, tokenized time, and measured by time, economic growth has been 50 to just enormously faster than is estimated by any of the GDP numbers. However, measured by time government services or ordinary GDP assumes that every dollar of government spending is worth what it costs. Prices both show that progress in the private sector has been four or five times faster than is estimated by GDP well government time, price of government dominated goods, including, increasingly, healthcare and education, is way less valuable than the cost. It's value subtracted, and certainly trillions of dollars for windmills and solar panels, trillions of dollars of subsidies is a net subtraction of value in the world economy. So I am with Gale Pooley and Tupy, both who wrote a book called Superabundance that I wrote the introduction to, and William Nordhaus, the Nobel laureate from Yale, who really conceived and developed time prices and showed that economic growth is 1000s of times greater than has been estimated by ordinary economic data. This is a time of abundance. It's not a time of scarcity. It's not a time of the dismal science. It's the time of super abundance.   Keith Weinhold  22:17 Yes, 100% a lot of that is just the government getting out of the way and really let people be givers, be that go giver and lead with giving, because I have never heard of a society that's taxed its way to prosperity.   George Gilder  22:34 Yeah. Well, that's absolutely the case. And I've been talking previously about graphene, which is the great new material that has been discovered of the last a couple decades. It originated, a lot of the science originated in Jim Tour's laboratory. James Tour of Rice University, and he's had scores of companies have emerged from his laboratory, and 18 of them got started in Israel. Israel is really become a leading force in the world economy. And when Israel is in jeopardy, our economy is in jeopardy. We have 100,000 Israeli citizens working in companies in Silicon Valley, 100,000 all the leading American tech companies have outposts in Israel, and now we face what I call the Israel test, which is how you respond to people who are really superior in creativity and accomplishment and intellect, and the appropriate thing to do is emulate them and learn from them. But too many people in the world see success and they want to tear it down, or they think it was stolen from someone else, or it was part of a zero sum game where the riches of one person necessarily come at the expense of someone else, which is the opposite of the truth, the riches proliferate opportunities for others. That's how the economy grows through the creativity and the image of your Creator.   Keith Weinhold  24:25 And when you bring up Israel, they're one of many nations that's made strong contributions to society and the economy, and we think about other nations that's been an increasingly relevant conversation these past few years, a lot of that centers on immigration. I'm not an expert on how many people we should let into this country or any of those sort of policy sorts of things, but here is a real estate investing show. I often think about where and how we're going to house all these immigrants, whether they come from Central America or South America or Israel or. Anywhere else. And I know oftentimes you've touted immigrations economic benefits, so I think it's pretty easy for one to see how in the short term, immigrants could be of economic detriment, but tell us more about those long term economic benefits of immigrants coming to the United States.   George Gilder  25:17 Immigrants come to the United States and become Americans and contribute American opportunity and wealth. We won the second world war because of immigration of Jewish scientists from Europe to the United States, who led by people like John von Neumann and Oppenheimer who forged the Manhattan Project, and that's really how we won the Second World War, was by accepting brilliant immigrants who wanted to serve America. Now there is a threat today where immigrants come to the United States not to contribute to the United States, but to exploit the United States, or even destroy it, not to go givers. They are givers, and so we want immigrants who are inclined to commit to America and create opportunities for the world, but immigrants who want to tear down America and who believe that America owes them something tend to be less productive and less valuable immigrants and immigrants who really want to destroy western civilization, and the jihadists that we know about are actually a threat to America. So the immigration problem isn't simple, but when we had a system where legal immigrants could apply and enter our country and revitalize it, that was a wonderful system, but having boards of illegal immigrants just pour over the border is not an intelligent way to deal with the desire of people around the world to share an American prosperity.   Keith Weinhold  27:13 We've seen several cases in the past year or two where immigrants are given free housing. There are really great case studies about this in Massachusetts and some other places, how they're giving housing before oftentimes, our own Americans, including sometimes retired veterans, are provided with housing. This all comes down to the housing crunch and already having a low housing supply. So what are some more your thoughts about just how much of a layup or a handout should we give new immigrants?   George Gilder  27:42 Housing technology is going to be transformed by the material science revolution that is epitomized by graphene, this miracle material I was describing. I think part of the problem is real estate enterprise is over regulated, and there are too many obstacles to the building of innovative new forms of housing. In 20 years, it'll be hard to recognize many of the structures that emerge as a result of real revolution in material science that is epitomized by this graphene age that I've been describing, and that also will transform electronics as well, and part housing can become a kind of computer platform as Elon Musk is transforming the auto business by seeing Tesla is really a new form of computer platform. I believe there's going to be an Elon Musk of real estate who is going to re envisage housing as a new form of building a computer platform that makes intelligent houses of the future that will be both cheaper and more commodious for human life.   Keith Weinhold  29:12 Real estate is rather old and slow moving when we think about technology in real estate, maybe what comes to mind are smart thermostats, smart doorbells, or 3d printed homes. When we come back, we're going to learn more about graphene and what it can do in real estate in the nanocosm revolution. Our guest is George Gilder. We talked about economics. We're coming back to talk about technology. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold. Keith Weinhold  Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge lending group NMLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with less. Ridge you can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start now while it's on your mind at ridgelendinggroup.com That's ridgelendinggroup.com. Your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings. If your money isn't making 4% you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest year in and year out, instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor too, earn 8% hundreds of others are text FAMILY to 66866, learn more about freedom. Family Investments Liquidity Fund on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text FAMILY to 66866.   Dolf Deroos  31:19 This is the king of commercial real estate. Dolph de Roos, listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and don't quit your Daydream.   Keith Weinhold  31:32 Welcome back to Get Rich Education. We're joined by an illustrious, legendary guest, George Gilder, among being other things, including a prolific writer. He's also the former speechwriter to presidents Reagan and Nixon. He's got a really illustrious and influential career. George, you've been talking about graphene, something that I don't think our audience is very familiar with, and I'm not either. Tell us about graphene promise in real estate.   George Gilder  31:59 Well, back in Manchester, England, in 2004 graphene was first discovered and formulated. It actually was submerged before then, but the Nobel Prizes were awarded to Geim and Novoselov in2010.  So this is a new material that all of us know when we use a lead pencil, a lead is graphite, and graphene is a single layer of graphite. And it turns out, many people imagined if you had a single layer of graphite, it would just break up. It would not be useful.   Keith Weinhold  32:42 We're talking super thin, like an atom.   George Gilder  32:45 Yeah, it's an atom thick, but still, it turns out that it has miraculous properties, that it's 200 times stronger than steel. If you put it in a trampoline, you couldn't see the trampoline, but you could bounce on it without go following through it. It can stop bullets. It means you can have invisible and almost impalpable bulletproof vests, and you mix it with concrete, and the concrete is becomes 35% stronger, even parts per million of graphene can transform the tensile strength of concrete, greatly reduce the amount you need, and enable all sorts of new architectural shapes and capabilities. We really are in the beginning of a new technological age, and all depressionary talk you hear is really going to be eclipsed over coming decades by the emergence of whole an array of new technologies, graphene, for instance, as a perfect film on wafer of silicon carbide and enable what's called terahertz electronics, which is trillions of cycles a second like light rather than billions of cycles a second like or Nvidia or L silicon chips, and it really obviates chips, because you what it allows is what's called wafer scale integration of electronics, and today, it the semiconductor industry, and I've written 10 books on semiconductors over the years, but the semiconductor industry functions by 12 inch wafers that get inscribed with all sorts of complex patterns that are a billionth of a meter in diameter. These big wafers and then the way. First get cut up into 1000s of little pieces that each one gets encapsulated in plastic packages and by some remote Asian islands, and then get implanted on printed circuit boards that arrayed in giant data centers that now can on track to consume half the world's energy over the next 20 years, and these new and all this technology is ultimately going to be displaced by wafer scale integration on The wafer itself. You can have a whole data center on a 12 inch wafer with no chips. It's on the wafer itself. And this has been recently announced in a paper from Georgia Tech by a great scientist named Walter de Heere. And it's thrilling revolution that that render as much as Silicon Valley obsolescent and opens up just huge opportunities in in construction and real estate and architecture and medicine and virtually across the range of contemporary industry.   Keith Weinhold  36:20 You wrote a book about blockchain and how we're moving into the post Google world is what you've called it. So is this graphene technology that you're discussing with us here? Is that part of the next thing, which you're calling the nanocosm revolution?   George Gilder  36:36 The microcosm was an earlier book the quantum revolution and economics and technology. I thought I wrote years ago called microcosm.   Keith Weinhold  36:46 Okay, we're getting smaller than microcosm now in nanocosm.   36:49 that was microns, that was millionths of a meter dimensions of the transistors and devices and silicon chips, the nanocosm is a billionth of the meter. It's 1000 times smaller the features and electronics of the future, and we're moving from the microcosm into the nanocosm. New materials like graphene epitomize this transformation. You know, people think that these giant data centers all around the world, which are amazing structures, but half the energy in these data centers are devoted to removing the heat rather than fueling the computation. And I believe these data centers are represent a kind of IBM mainframe of the current era. When I was coming up, people imagined that a few 100 IBM mainframe computers, each weighing about a ton, would satisfy all the world's needs for computation, and that new artificial minds could be created with these new IBM mainframes. And it's the same thing today, only we're talking about data centers, and I believe that the coming era will allow data centers in your pocket and based on graphene electronics, and wait for scale integration, a whole new paradigm that will make the current data centers look like obsolete, old structures that need to be revitalized.   Keith Weinhold  38:37 Around 2007 Americans and much of the world, they got used to how it feels to have the power of a computer in their pocket with devices like the iPhone. How would it change one's everyday life to have effectively a data center in their pocket?   38:54 This means that we no longer would be governments of a few giant companies hearing a singular model of intelligence. That's what's currently envisaged, that Google Brain or Facebook or these giant data setters would sum up all human intelligence and in a particular definition, but there are now 8 billion human beings on earth, and each of our minds is as densely connected as the entire global internet. And while the global Internet consumes error watts, trillions of watts of power, or brains. Each of these 8 billion human minds functions on 12 to 14 watts, or it's billions of times less than these data center systems. On the internet. I believe that technology works to the extent that it expands human capabilities, not to the extent that it displaces human capabilities. The emergence of distributed databases in all our pockets, distributed knowledge and distributed creativity can revitalize the whole world economy and open new horizons that are hard to imagine today, as long as we don't, all of a sudden decide that we live in a material universe where everything is scarce and successes by one person come at the expense of somebody else, as long as that zero sum model doesn't prevail, right? Human opportunities are really unlimited. Most of economics has been based on a false model of scarcity, the only thing that's really scarce is time. Imagination and creativity are really infinite.   Keith Weinhold  41:10 Yes, well, if someone wants to learn more about graphene in the nanocosm revolution, how can you help them? What should they do?   41:18 They can read my newsletters. I have a company with four newsletters. I write the Gilder Technology Report. Much of the time I write, John Schroeder writes moonshots, which is and I have a Gilder Private Reserve that reaches out with our crowd and Israel, and a lot of those graph gene companies in Israel are part of our Private Reserve. And I do Gilders Guide posts, and those are all available getgilder.com.   Keith Weinhold  41:56 if you'd like to learn more about George and his popular newsletter called the Gilder Technology Report. You can learn more about that at get gilder.com George, it's been an enlightening conversation about economics and where society is moving next. Thanks so much for coming on to the show.   George Gilder  42:16 Thank you, Keith. I really appreciate it.   Keith Weinhold  42:24 yeah, a forward looking discussion with the great George Gilder. Forbes said graphene may be the next multi trillion dollar material. George will tell you that you want to get into graphene now, while the biggest gains are still ahead. If it interests you in at least learning more, check out his video resource. It's free. There's also an opportunity for you to be an investor. You can do all of that and more at getgilder.com again getguilder.com until next week. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold. Don't Quit Your Daydream.   43:04 nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC, exclusively.   Keith Weinhold  43:32 The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. GetRichEducation.com

In this episode Keith shares the survey results on what the highest rising cost for landlords is and what to do about it. He challenges the conventional wisdom that all debts should be paid off.  He talks about how the rising costs of homeowners insurance and property taxes are the most significant expenses for single family landlords 76% of single-family landlords plan to raise rents over the next 12 months, with 35% expecting increases over 4%. Learn about the concept of debt as leverage and its role in wealth building. The importance of liquidity, interest rate arbitrage, and the ability to outsource debt payments. How inflation impacts debt. Understand the benefits of debt in real estate investment, including the ability to own more properties and create arbitrage opportunities. Show Notes: GetRichEducation.com/516 For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 For advertising inquiries, visit: GetRichEducation.com/ad Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREmarketplace.com/Coach Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Complete episode transcript:   Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai    Keith Weinhold  00:00 Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold. The economy is affecting real estate in some interesting ways. Now, vital trends revealed from a survey of single family landlords. Then the heart of today's show is every debt that you have worth paying off. The answer is no, with some surprising reasons all today on Get Rich Education. When you want the best real estate and finance info, the modern Internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls and you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies, disclaimers. Oh, had no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life? See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of ours myself, it's got a dash of humor, and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple. Text, GRE 66866 and when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course, completely free. It's called The Don't quit your Daydream letter and it wires your mind for wealth. Make sure you read it. Text GRE to 66866, text GRE to 66866.   Corey Coates  01:34 You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.   Keith Weinhold  01:51 Welcome to GRE you are listening to the voice of real estate investing since 2014 I'm your host, Keith Weinhold back to help you build your wealth for another week. This is Get Rich Education. That's just one of many things that makes this show different from other shows, or just consuming news stories. Here, you stay updated on important real estate investing trends, but you learn specific strategies to actionably build your wealth. That's the difference, and it's with the most generationally proven medium of real estate, all without you having to be a flipper and often not a landlord either. Now, presidential candidates make lots of promises during their campaigns, that includes with real estate here recently, even if you're listening 10 years from now, I'll tell you how to put something like this into perspective. Kamala Harris unveiled her plan to spur the construction of 3 million more housing units. That's a good thing. America needs more housing. She also wants to give federal assistance, and by the way, that means your money. She wants to give federal assistance in the form of a $25,000 down payment help for first time home buyers. I see that as a bad thing, and see there's no partisan bias here at GRE a lot of media outlets, they will filter something like this is all good or all bad, because they get better ratings when they rile people up, and that results in a divided America. But the problem is that the 25k of down payment help that can be delivered faster than new homes can be built, and that risks pushing up home prices faster, sooner, which arose the very affordability that's trying to be helped here now a presidential candidate, be it Kamala Harris or anyone when they have this enthusiasm to also limit price gouging at grocery stores here, like this candidate does. I mean, that's the beginning of price controls, and when there are price controls, no farmer is going to want to produce cherry tomatoes or Fisher is going to want to produce wild caught salmon if they have a significant price ceiling limiting the supply of those things. Therefore, I mean, when we had price controls in the high inflation 70s, that created shortages. And it's important to keep in mind that presidential campaign promises, they often don't become policies that are enacted even if that person is elected president, and even if they are, much of this still requires congressional approval, and we still have a divided Congress, and any tax changes require the approval of Congress. So really, this stuff is just a presidential wish list, giving you some perspective here. Now on the topic of shortages, there still is not enough available supply of US homes, active listings, those seeking a starter home often get more worn out than your grandpa after two games of checkers. But inventory levels are not as bad as they used to be, we still got a ways to go to claw back close to a more normal, balanced pre pandemic housing supply level nationally, we are still 29% lower. There are now still 29% fewer active listings than there were in pre pandemic times and most individual states still have inventory levels lower than that, too, compared to five years ago, when we break it down by state, some have a more paltry supply than others, though, places with the scarcest inventory, they seem To be those states where maple syrup gets produced, as it turns out, and I sure hope that this doesn't mean people need to sleep in the sugar shack. Connecticut is down 75% that means they have 75% less inventory than five years ago, pre pandemic, Illinois down 66%,  New Jersey down 57%, Virginia down 53%, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts and Michigan all with 51% less inventory than they had pre pandemic. Ohio down 43%, California and Missouri each down 31%. The main problem here is that the Northeast and Midwest have not had enough home building in order to keep up with housing demand. I guess what? There were too many snow days in the Northeast and Midwest, or were builders constantly distracted by potholes and cicadas? Conversely, there are three popular investor states where for sale inventory is just a tad higher now than it was five years ago. Texas is up 6%, Florida up 5%, Tennessee up 2% and this doesn't mean that these states are oversupplied with housing, it just means that they have a touch more than they did in 2019 so they're closer to balance. The important overall thing to remember here is, of course, that nationally, buyers still outnumber sellers. So between the lower mortgage rates that we've had in the past year and the low supply, this keeps the environment ripe. There will be more offers and more potential for home prices to increase faster than its current rate of 4.1%. That 4.1% year over year, as per the NAR, it's important for you to understand that there's virtually no way that prices can revert to their pre pandemic levels. Home prices are not going back to where they used to be five years ago. In fact, there is more pressure on them to rise from here not fall, and there are a few reasons why prices cannot go back to where they were. The rate of inflation has slowed. You've seen the price of lumber come down, but wider inflation has been indelibly baked into the pricing cake. Homes now have higher, permanently embedded costs of labor, materials and land that all have more stick-to-itiveness to them than Simone Biles on the balance beam. Prices are not coming down anytime in the near future. You might remember that right here on this show in in our newsletter, back in late December, eight months ago, I forecast that national home prices would rise 4% this year, and I still really like how that looks.  I'll get back to the investment side here shortly, but real quick, in light of the new rules about how real estate agents are compensated if you're about to buy a primary residence, you may not have any experience negotiating with a broker. In last week's newsletter, I sent you a template you can use and that can help you simplify the process as a buyer and help you avoid being taken advantage of. I sent you that template last Thursday. Back here on the real estate investor side, after a high tide of inflation, you know, you and I, we have all surely enjoyed the splash of both higher property prices and rents. That looks to continue. But what about your higher property expenses, too? Let's talk about what you've got to do to avoid getting crunched by expenses. A survey of single family landlords was recently conducted by lending one in resi club, and they asked this question, what is your expense that increased the most the past 12 months? The number one answer is fast rising insurance premiums, with half of respondents citing that as their biggest expense increase item. And that's hardly a new development, not surprising. The next biggest expense was property tax,  27% of respondents cited that. That's mostly a reflection of higher property values and their consequent tax assessments. 235 single family landlords completed this survey, by the way. So they were the proportion of landlords that answered about what was their fastest increasing expense. Half of them said insurance, easily the most well, the rate of increase in homeowners insurance costs was roughly 10 to 12% nationally last year. That's according to the Insurance Information Institute, and the top two reasons for this are more severe storms and higher replacement costs. The good news is that further rate increases are cooling off, though, all right, but still, what are you to do as a rental property owner that's stuck with a higher property insurance bill? I've got a great answer for you, and it's so incredibly simple. You pass the expense along to your tenant with a rent increase, and then others can deal with what happens downstream from there. And I'll tell you how to go about doing this shortly, which is also so incredibly simple. But if you're reluctant to pass along the increased insurance expense to your tenant, understand that you and your tenant are just like two ports along a river. As this wave of inflation flows along, it flows from the reinsurer to the insurer, to you, the property owner, to the increased rent, to the hike in the tenant wage, to the employer, and then the employer hikes prices on the consumer. That's how the river flows. No watered down returns for you. Now, of course, this River's headwaters are sourced with the government, because that's where inflation comes from. Inflation means an expansion of the money supply. You and your tenant are really two ports along the river. Don't let the expense water dam up and flood you, and the written reason that you give your tenant for the rent increase is drum roll here, higher insurance costs. Yeah, that's it. It's super simple. There's no need to be inventive here. Honesty is therefore the best river raft. Hey, come on now this remorseless geography degree holder has got to let loose with something like river references from time to time. So that's the greatest expense increase item, what to do about it and how you should go about doing it. Now this same survey of single family landlords, they showed that 76% expect to reach high watermarks and raise the rent over the next 12 months, including 35% of landlords who say the rent increase will be over 4% and planned rent increases of one to 7% are most common. That's the planned rent increase range one to 7%. Look, you didn't get into real estate to subsidize others living expenses. There is nothing unethical about adjusting to market level rent. Rent hikes are like a lock lifting your ship through the Panama Canal. All right, so what do we make of this. I mean, gaging, overall investor sentiment is we head later into the 2020s, decade. What is the landlord temperature? As I see it, expenses are up. Higher. Rents follow. And last quarter, home values increased in almost 90% of us, Metro markets, yes, property values are up in 89% of Metro markets. But how do single family landlords in this same survey feel? Well, 60% of them say they will buy at least one investment property over the next 12 months. So most single family landlords they want to buy more. And when that's broken down by region, the most single family real estate investor optimism is in the Midwest, Northeast and South. And really single family landlords are optimistic in every region except the West. And this makes sense. Cash Flows are less lucrative in the West because prices have long outpaced rents there, the survey really shows that most aren't wildly bullish or excessively bearish on the real estate market. They expect it to stay balanced. Many plan to buy properties raise rents, and the survey shows that they, too, expect a 4% home price appreciation rate. That's what it showed, and they anticipate falling interest rates.  Now, personally, I often disagree with what the masses think. I mean, contrarians to the mainstream, they are often the profiteers. But in this case, I guess I'm more agreeable with the survey respondents than a perfectly brewed cup of coffee in the morning. And well, maybe that's because single family landlords, the very people that were surveyed are not mainstream. The housing market is actually pretty normal in most every significant way, except, of course, the ongoing lack of housing inventory and affordability challenges for first time homebuyers. And if you're a newer GRE listener, even normal times can be thrilling for a real estate investor when you achieve a 40% plus total rate of return from how real estate pays you five ways. Yes, if you're new here, I know that sounds like an unachievable return, but 40% plus is actually realistic without high risk when you understand your five simultaneous profit sources with income producing property. In fact, when someone asks why you invest in real estate, you can just hold up five fingers. The broader economy shows a lot of signs of normalcy as well, GDP, growth, consumer spending, unemployment, the inflation rate, but the sad exception here is this widening gap between the wealthy and the poor, so I guess that more people charter yachts and yet others increasingly pour mountain dew on their fruit loops in the morning for breakfast. Now, complete uncertainty never disappears, but after disruptions from covid, high inflation and new wars, a lot of people see calmer times ahead. Elections matter, but some people seem more concerned about who the next President will be than the parent of a Sephora obsessed teen. Presidential elections aren't known to rock the real estate market, and actually, history shows that the more sensitive stock market is only temporarily affected by an election. Sometimes I just ponder and quietly think to myself, hmm, when the liquid death drink brand thrives from Hawking wildly overpriced water in a can, I posit just how bad can the economy really be? The bottom line is that most single family investors are meeting higher insurance expenses with rent increases and they want to buy more income property over the next 12 months.  Hey, if you like this show here, and you get value from it every week, I love it when you just simply tell a friend about the show, it's as easy as having them download our dedicated Get Rich Education mobile app for both iOS and Android. If you think you have any friends that would benefit from the vital episode here, I'd be grateful if you shared the show with them, use the Share button on your podcaster, or even take a screenshot and post it to your social. Straight ahead is any debt worth paying off? I'm Keith Weinhold. You're listening to Get Rich Education.  Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge Lending Group NMLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation, because they specialize in income properties, they help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start now while it's on your mind at Ridgelendinggroup.com that's Ridgelendinggroup.com.   Keith Weinhold  19:47 Your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings. If your money isn't making 4% you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest, year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k, you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor too, earn 8% hundreds of others are text FAMILY  to 66866, learn more about Freedom Family Investments, Liquidity Fund, on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text, FAMILY to 66866.   Dani-Lynn Robison  20:49 This is Freedom Family Investments Co-founder, Dani-Lynn Robison, listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Weinhold, and Don't Quit Your Daydream.   Keith Weinhold  20:57 Welcome back to Get Rich Education. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, you're listening to Episode 516 is every debt that you have worth paying off? The short answer is no. I have held millions of dollars in debt from a young age, and I just keep holding on to more and more. Look what happens to your net worth when you pay down one of your debts, absolutely nothing happens to your net worth. It stays the same. All right. Say that the total value of all of your assets gives you a sum of one and a half million dollars. That's the combined value of any of your real estate, cars, retirement accounts, gold, Bitcoin, all of it, anything of value one and a half million and totaling up all of your debts equals just a half million. That's your mortgages, automobile debt, credit card debt, everything. All right, so you've got one and a half million in assets and 500k in debt. So you've got a million dollar net worth, okay, well, next, say that you decide to pay down 100k of your debt. All right. Well, what's the result? You've got only $1.4 million in assets and just 400k in debt. Well, the result is that your net worth is still a million bucks. You've now got fewer assets and less debt, so you just broke even. But it could be worse than just a break even, because what if, one month after you made this debt pay down. You now need that 100k back for living expenses, but you can no longer get it returned to you because you lost your job, so no one will qualify you for a loan again, or you still have your job. But lending standards have tightened and changed now your 100k is on the other side of a wall that you can't access. So debt pay down isn't just a question of net worth, it's liquidity. And there are some more layers here that we're going to get into paying down mortgage debt. It also builds home equity. Well, that is usually a bad thing, because, as I'm known for saying, home equity is unsafe, illiquid, and its rate of return is always zero. Do you know the crowd that sometimes forgets this and really gets penalized? It is seniors, retirees. All right, what happens when a person is older and they've had a paid off home for a while. People get a reverse mortgage. They need funds for living expenses. Well, reverse mortgages, they have high fees, and also you can't get nearly all of your equity out. You'll often only get up to 60 to 65% loan to value, meaning that 35 to 40% of that hard earned equity that you worked decades for. First it became trapped with no return, and now it's essentially gone. Poof. For all those years, your home is paid off, even if it began as early as your 30s, like it does for some people all that time your equity wasn't earning any rate of return. And the earlier in life you learned that the ROI from home equity is always zero, the better. You didn't see any bill for this loss. You just never saw the gain that you should have had. And that's part of the reason why this myth that home equity is such a great thing perpetuates and carries on for generations. All right, well, we are just getting warmed up here at a key financial question in your life. That question is, is every debt that you have worth paying off?   24:58 Did you know millions of Americans live with debt they cannot control. That's why I developed this unique new program for managing your debt. It's called Don't buy stuff you cannot afford. Let me see that. If you don't have any money, you should not buy anything. hmm sounds interesting, sounds confusing.   Keith Weinhold  25:24 Well, there's a little something to be said for that. But what about interest rate? If that 100k that you paid down was for credit card debt? All right? Well, that was probably a good thing. 44% of American credit card holders carry debt month to month. Now I'm going to guess for you the GRE listener, it's even less likely than that that you carry debt month per month, where you would be subject to credit card finance charges. The average credit card interest rate in America is about 25% today, and it is unsecured debt, meaning that it's a debt type that's not backed by collateral. Now, yes, you can beat a 25% return if you're leveraged in real estate, but your liquid cash flow drain is drastic on credit cards. The other problem with credit cards is that you have to pay your own debt. Later, I'll talk about when others pay your debt for you. And if you have decided that you have some debts worth paying down because its interest rate is too high for goodness sake, pay the one with the highest interest rate first. I know there's a school of thought that says, pay the debt with the lowest balance. First, that is nonsense. Now, sometimes, if you know specifically what you're doing with credit cards, you can play some little games with them. I mean, personally, after I finished college, I kept transferring credit card balances with 0% APR, Intro offers, introductory offers that were for a limited time at 0% and then I kept track of that so that intro rate didn't expire. But this isn't any sort of long term wealth building strategy. Higher balance transfer fees have made that strategy less lucrative. Now too, banks have tightened that up. When it comes to interest rates, it's about that arbitrage. Ask yourself really two questions when it comes to arbitrage, which is just a fancy sounding way of making a profit or a spread. First, you need to ask yourself, how good of an investor Are you? What percent return can you reliably earn from your investments? Say you think it's 15% then if you're plus 15 but the interest rate on your debt is 8, well, then you've got 7 points of arbitrage or profit. So keep the 8% debt. And then secondly on arbitrage plays. Ask yourself, can I afford the cash flow if I keep this debt around? Because if you're 15% return, just say that it's all tied up in the appreciation of a property. Well, that's not very liquid, so you're going to need to have the free cash to make the payments on your 8% interest rate loan. Let's talk about other times not to pay down the debt. Say you're trying to build up an emergency fund of at least three months, or you want to contribute to your employer match in your company's retirement plan, you may very well want to fund those things before you pay down debt too. Now some say, hey, you know something. Just forget about all these numbers like rates of return and interest rates. You know, debt just makes me feel anxiety and feel stress and sleeplessness. There is emotion here, so let me just get it paid off. Or I'm afraid that if I've got some money and I don't pay off my debt, that I'll just lose all of the money to sports gambling, and to that, I say, come on, be an adult. Set some boundaries. Dog ears, some cash for entertainment, and have a firm line. Learn how to use that to your advantage. Debt is like fire. It can burn you if you don't know how to use it, and it can heat your home if you do know how to use it. And if debt gives you sleeplessness. Here, this will help you sleep your debts, principal balance is being debased for you as you sleep, every single one of your debts is being eroded by inflation. Right now, as you listen to me, your principal balance is quietly, debasing and passively, eroding with your say 500k of total debt. We have 10% inflation over a couple years. Well, that erodes its weight down to 450k all without you having to get involved and make any pay downs at all. As wages go higher, and so do prices and rents and salaries, as they all spiral higher, it gets easier to pay back those principal balances. And debt is the most powerful wealth building force that I know of, because debt is leverage. Compound interest is weak. Leverage is powerful. Debt allows you to own and control five times as many properties as you could if they were all paid off. And if you don't understand this, or if your jaw hit the floor, what I just said a minute ago, that compound interest is weak. I just discussed this for you in clear detail nine weeks ago, on Get Rich Education podcast episode 507. So go and check that out. One attribute of real estate debt is that as you get properties where the rent income meets or exceeds the expenses, congratulations, you have reliably outsourced all of your debt payments to tenants. See, most of my debt, personally, virtually all of it, it isn't really going to be paid back by me. It's my tenants, and that is another reason to keep debt in place and only make the minimum payment. Let's talk about another reason to pay down your debt when a payoff or pay down actually does make sense, even if it's at a low interest rate, it's when an outside force kind of makes you pay down your debt. And here's what I'm talking about. Say you're trying to buy a property, whether that's a primary residence or rental, and that you've got say, Oh, just $11,000 left to pay on your car loan at a 5% interest rate, even though you can't outsource the payments. That's a pretty nice low 5% interest rate, you're confident that you can beat that and earn more elsewhere, so you'd rather enjoy the positive arbitrage instead of paying that off. And I'd feel the same way. But here's the twist, your mortgage loan officer says you've got to pay the $11,000 down to zero because your debt to income ratio is too high. So if you want the mortgage, the big loan amount, you've got to pay off the car loan, the little loan amount. Well, that's a case when it makes sense to pay off that automobile loan debt then, and also, when it comes to your credit score, you might need to improve it to qualify for another loan so you can get a low interest rate and 30% of your FICO score is made up of your amounts owed. I'm answering a vital question for you today, and that is, is every one of your debts worth paying off? I'm sharing information, perspective and experience with you here, and this experience was built, just like all experiences, and I didn't always have the experience, of course. Now my parents and I split my college loan costs, 5050, I still had student loan debts for a few years after graduating, and you know, I can't remember what my student loan interest rates were maybe 6% blended because I had a few different student loans, some of which I did transfer onto those 0% intro, APR credit cards, by the way. But after my student loans were paid off, and I started investing in real estate and understanding terms like leverage and arbitrage, you know, I started to wonder if it would be desirable to have those student loans back rather than paying them off so fast I could have owned another property or two sooner, and I'll never know the opportunity cost of not benefiting from the returns on owning more Property sooner. And of course, student loan debt is one of the few debt types that cannot be written off in bankruptcy that tilts back a little toward paying them off sooner than later.  What you just heard me talk about here for the last 15 or so minutes is a message that hundreds of millions of people need to hear it's that not every debt is worth paying off or even paying down. So to help give you a summary answer to our question, is every debt worth paying off? The answer is no, and the key considerations are liquidity, interest rate arbitrage inyour ability to outsource the debt. Debt is good when it helps you buy a cash flowing asset or create arbitrage. Debt is probably even good when it helps you buy a home for your family and have a sense of permanency and a mantle to place baseballs and hang Christmas stockings from and build memories. And now this is all because every single one of us either uses debt or we forego the opportunity to use debt. Well, when we forego using debt, we are now subject to a resultant opportunity cost, and this is why a central and enduring mantra here at GRE is that financially free beats debt free. Financially free means that you have enough residual income streams to meet all of your expenses and live just how you want to live. Debt Free means that you don't owe anyone anything, but if you put debt free before financially free, you are going to grind and live below your means and eat dirt and miss opportunities for decades.   And speaking of leveraging your way to financial freedom with assets, the way that we actionably help you here is by recommending income producing providers and properties for you. And you probably noticed over time that GRE marketplace properties here are less expensive than elsewhere. And you might wonder why exactly is this? Well, there's a few reasons. Investor advantage markets have low prices. Also, there is no agent you get to buy directly. Thirdly, providers provide homes in bulk, keeping your costs down. And then finally, there are no owner occupied emotions involved here with buying and owning rental properties, so you don't have sellers that are making unreasonable requests. So this helps answer why GRE marketplace properties are often good deals. Now it seems like states with the best cash flow in real estate are the same ones where people are more likely to wear bib overalls. That's just how it is. In fact. Hey, case in point, I just learned about some brand new, new build single family rentals in southwest Missouri at GRE marketplace. They're available for you to own regardless of where you live. They make ideal rentals, and they come with free property management for the first year. And because they're freshly built. Expect the likelihood of a quality tenant, light maintenance and low repair costs for years. Let me just quickly mention two of them to give you a feel. The first one is in Carthage, Missouri. The single family rental is three bed, two bath. Rent 1550 the price is 206k it's 1200 square feet, built this year. You get a $1,200 rent credit with it. So it's going to take a 51k down payment, and it produces cash flow. The second one is in Carl Junction, Missouri, four bed two bath in this single family rental. The rents $1,875 the price $250,500 1683 square feet built this year. 62k down and produces cash flow. And like I said, both come with free property management for the first year, and we can help set up an entire real estate investment plan for you, whether it's with these properties or others in multiple states, where we help you make it easy on yourself and contact a GRE investment coach. It is truly free always. There aren't going to be any hidden coaching bills that pop up in the mail. We don't have some paid coaching program. We're trying to upsell you. We don't have anything to sell, and our coaches are like advisors, consultants, super connectors and like silent partners on your deals, and they get zero equity in the deal. And our coaches don't wear Bib Overalls either. So they keep it really relatable for you, make it actionable and make a real difference in your life, start at gremarketplace.com. That's where you can contact a GRE investment coach, and we'll see how we can help you out from gremarketplace.com just click on the free investment coaching button.  Until next week, I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, and I'll be back to help you build your wealth, Don't Quit Your Daydream.   39:46 Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed or investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively.   Keith Weinhold  40:06 The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. GetRichEducation.com.

Independent documentary filmmaker and policy analyst at Reason Foundation, Jen Sidorova, joins us to discuss how rent control impacts tenants, landlords and the housing market. Her latest short film project, “Shabbification: The Story of Rent Control”, reflects how rent control has a direct effect on housing quality. Almost half of rentals in NYC are rent-stabilized. We highlight the challenges faced by small property owners and the potential consequences of these regulations on the housing market. Bathtub in your kitchen, anyone? Yes, you read that correctly. In some cases maintenance has been deferred for so long that units have not been updated to code. Learn about the history of rent control and stabilization laws in New York. Resources mentioned: Show Notes: GetRichEducation.com/515 You can follow Jen on Instagram @jen_sidorova or check out her writing at reason.org For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 For advertising inquiries, visit: GetRichEducation.com/ad Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREmarketplace.com/Coach Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Complete episode transcript:   Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai   Keith Weinhold  0:01   Welcome to GRE. I discuss the effect that now lower mortgage rates can have how to get a strong return with private lending. Then, for this week's guest, she is a public policy expert with reason.com maker of a new film called Shabbification that spotlights the perils and even horrors of rent control in New York City, and she's a young Russian immigrant that lives in one unit of a Buffalo fourPlex and rents out the other three today on Get Rich Education.    When you want the best real estate and finance info, the modern Internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls and you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies disclaimers. Oh, at no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life. See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of ours myself. It's got a dash of humor, and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple text, GRE to 66866, and when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course, completely free. It's called the Don't quit your Daydream letter, and it wires your mind for wealth. Make sure you read it. Text GRE to 66866, text GRE to 66866. Corey Coates  1:40   you're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.   Keith Weinhold  1:56   Welcome to GRE from Ankara,Turkey to Anchorage, Alaska and across 488 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you're listening to Get Rich Education. Today's guest was one of four panelists at a conference that I attended recently. The panel was named innovative solutions to the housing crisis, and her story struck me as interesting, so I invited her to be on the show today, we'll learn that with rent control in New York City, when landlords cannot go inside their own properties and aren't allowed to sell their own properties, seven states have price ceilings on rents, and I'll tell you here At GRE we avoid investing in these places. Listen closely, California, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Maine, Oregon, Minnesota and then DC too. Now sometimes rent control isn't too restrictive. For example, you can raise the rent no more than the rate of inflation plus 3% per year, or the rate of inflation plus 5% per year. And also, it's not all parts of those states where it applies. In fact, you typically do not find the policies statewide in those states that I mentioned, although you do in Oregon, it's statewide in Oregon, and there you can still raise the rent 7% plus the rate of inflation each year. And the good news is that 37 states actually have laws against rent control, specifically saying that you cannot enact it. So not only do 37 states not have it, they just wouldn't even allow a law for it. And there is a strong consensus, like I mentioned here on the show before, among economists that rent control, it reduces the quantity and quality of housing. Today, we'll focus on just how dilapidated rental units become under rent stabilization, which is a lot like rent control in New York City. And we'll discuss New York State and Buffalo. And by the way, I find something amazing. I mean, just say you would ask a question of any citizen of the world, no matter where they live, from Indonesia to Japan, to Bangladesh, to Nigeria to the United States. If you would just ask any citizen of the world, what is the capital of the world? I think that the best answer that you could come up with is New York City. I'm in the United States, and there are people right here in this country that have such little understanding of New York City, and what goes on there, and where it even is, it just amazes me. Maybe it's my own bias, because I'm a geography guy, but now, for example, to get from New York City out to Buffalo, that's an almost seven hour drive to the northwest two different parts of New York State. These are two very different places. We'll get into that shortly. But first in the wider real estate world, I did a little research since first mentioning this to you last week here, where mortgage rates have fallen fully one and a half points from the recent high. All right. Well, with every half point drop in mortgage rates, like I learned from First American, that's my source. With every half point drop in mortgage rates, about 1.1 million additional American households can qualify to buy an entry level home that's defined as the bottom 25% priced here. That's the number, and I checked their math. So with a full point drop in mortgage rates, then 2.2 million more American households can qualify to buy an entry level home. So we could very well have more buyers here soon, but yeah, when all these homeowners are still locked into three and 4% mortgage rates, I don't know that you're gonna have that many more sellers. So with demand exceeding supply, look for more upward pressure on home prices, especially higher values for those entry level homes that make the best rentals. Now, I'm talking about borrowing right there. And what happens when rates go down for mortgages, when they go down for borrowing? Well, rates on savings accounts, they typically fall as well. And this is a scenario that a lot of people expect. Now, most of my real estate activity is a borrower. I'm always here touting the virtues of how leverage builds wealth, and I know that I don't want to be a saver. So for my more liquid funds, I am a lender, and I'm reliably paid a stable 8% interest rate. And I think I've told you before that for years now, I make loans to real estate companies, and they use my funds to rehab properties and for other operations. Yes, an 8% return that I'm getting, and it's almost like getting an 8% yield on a savings account, and it's not expected to fall when interest rates fall. Well, the primary difference is that I often have to wait a few months if I want my full principal return, but not years. So it's not as rigid as a bank CD, but it's not as liquid as an old fashioned bank savings account. So the private real estate company that I've long made loans to works pretty diligently to maintain asset value and assure optimal returns. They'll tell you that they've never missed making a payment for their private money lending programs. And I did a little research, and I found that their fund utilization is 99.6% that really means that they deploy almost all of the capital if you want, you can potentially get a high yield at the same place I do. Sometimes you can get more than 8% or less than an 8% return, depending on what liquidity terms you want and what other terms you like. The company is Freedom Family Investments. They are real estate centric. If you want, go right ahead and learn more. You can do that by texting FAMILY to 66866. Remember, you're the lender, they're the borrower. And again, for most investment types, I want to be the borrower, but for liquid funds, and the fact that the rate of inflation is now down, an 8% return has a higher real yield now than it did two years ago and one year ago. And again, I'm happy to share it with you. It's Freedom Family Investments. If you want to learn more, do it now while it's on your mind and text FAMILY to 66866.    This week, our guest is a public policy expert that's also involved with a film called Shabbification, the story of rent control. Hey, welcome to GRE Jen Sidorova.   Jen Sidorova  9:16   Good to be here. Thank you for having me.    Keith Weinhold  9:18   Yeah and congrats. Shabbification screening in a lot of places, like the Anthem Film Festival at Freedom Fest last month and this month in New York City, tell us about the film.   Jen Sidorova  9:31    Yeah, so in Shabbification, I follow small property owners like myself who are subject to regulation, and most of them are owners of rent stabilized properties in the city of New York. Right, I follow three specific landlords. I They take me to their homes, they take me to their properties, and they show me around, and you can visually see what regulation has done to their property. Yeah, one of these properties was occupied by a tenant. From 1969 up until 2021 wow. And the landlord was never allowed to be in the property, so obviously no repairs were made. And you could see visually that the apartment was like from the 60s. It's like a museum, but not in a good way, because it's really falling apart, right? So it's like, almost like a Tenement Museum, or, you know, another museum New York City, where we they actually preserve those dates. But in this case, a private landlord actually owns that space, and they're having a difficult time. And so what my specific Shabbification With my film is about is a very specific regulation in New York City that happened in 2019 that applied to rent stabilized properties. What it did that is that it won't allow landlords to put them properties on the market even if they rent stabilized tenant vacates them. They're no longer allowed to put their properties on the market at all. And more than that, they are also not allowed to raise rent, even if they do repairs. So sometimes the cost of repairs in New York City for one bedroom unit can be 200,000 and they're only allowed to raise the rent by like roughly $90 a month, and only for 15 years. So it will take them, like, 200 years to recoup their investment. And obviously that doesn't make any sense, so stories like that is what my short film is about. I myself am a small property owner, so it was very special for me to go and kind of tell the story of people like me.   Keith Weinhold  11:36   That's amazing. So rent stabilization something that New York City has a history of. I sort of think of that as a genteel term or rent control. And a lot of times when your rent can't be raised above a certain amount, you get these long term tenants, in some cases, for decades, and in this case, over 50 years, with this particular tenant in New York City and landlords don't have much of any incentive to improve property when rent control is in place, because they know they cannot get a commensurate bump in rent.   Speaker 1  12:11   rent control and rent stabilization are a form of government enforced limit on the rents. And in New York we have two laws that govern that we have more but the most prominent ones are the rent control law of 1969 and the Rent Stabilization Act of 1974 so back in the day, there were issues with availability of affordable housing, and the government was trying to fix it, and that fix was supposed to be temporary. It was supposed to eventually run out once the tenants who were currently in place at the time in late 60s and 70s, once they move out, landlords were able to put those properties back on the market. And eventually, that's kind of what was going on up until 2019 when housing stability and Tenant Protection Act made it so that the landlords could no longer put their rent stabilized properties on the market anymore. So essentially, all rent stabilization became permanent in the state of New York, and actually, in the just a couple of weeks after my film, in April of 2024 we had another law. It's called Good Cause Eviction, and that one regulates every landlord or enterprise who owns more than 11 units. So once you own 11 units or more, you're subject to regulation. You can no longer evict your tenant without a good cause. And there's a bunch of other rules that apply, including the limit on how much rent you can raise year to year. So yeah, that's certainly what's going on. That's roughly the landscape all regulation in New York.   Keith Weinhold  13:44    Yeah, some of this is really punitive, because if rent control comes into a market, that's one thing sometimes that landlords want to do. They want to sell their property, and in some cases, there's a roadblock against that. You know, Jen, I looked up the definition of Shabbification. I just simply googled the term. Urban Dictionary had one of the first hits, and fortunately, it was a G rated definition there in urban dictionary, it was defined as the opposite of gentrification. So therefore with Shabbification, it's where a neighborhood goes through deterioration and despair. So tell us about some more of those bad cases of deterioration, in despair, in Shabbification. Just how bad does it get?   Speaker 1  14:30   Well, one of the properties that we went to was basically from 1910 it was in Chinatown, and we saw was that the bathtub was in the kitchen in that property, oh my gosh. And I believe that was a way for them to do renovations fast and cheap, like 100 years ago. And because that property falls under rent stabilization, and there's obviously limits on how much rent you can charge. So. Landlords of those properties never really make renovations. Sometimes you could see cases like the director of photography, who was in the film, he lives in a rent sabilized property, and in his case, he has a shower unit in his kitchen as well. Instead of a tub, he has a shower unit. And it kind of is, as he described as one of those telephone booths, like, you know, red telephone booths from London, and then kind of just sits in the kitchen, and you obviously cannot really have company or friends visiting or dinner or anything if you have something like that. But those are the setups that we frequently see. Also a lot of things like uneven floors or just, you know, the property, if it's not being taken care of, there might be, like, a hole in the wall, a hole in the ceiling, or the ceiling is falling out. And those are really graphic images. And we do, we do capture them on camera a lot in Shabbification, and that comes from, kind of, my attraction to urban decay. I do enjoy, you know, touring older buildings, or maybe buildings that are preserved as a ruin, maybe like an old prison and or like an old mental asylum. I do do that a lot. It's just a hobby when I travel. So I was always attracted to that esthetic, and that does show in my film as well. I think I love studying the tragedy because I love studying how the hope died, because it's fascinating to me. It's very specific to usually a town or a city, and then just is so telling, and it's such a teaching moment for us as a society to kind of revisit those stories and figure out why did that hope die. And you can see a lot of that in the film.    Keith Weinhold  16:41   it's a great way to scratch one's itch for I suppose, seeing real life haunted houses, if you will, in Jen's film Shabbification here. Well, Jen, we've been talking about the conditions of the tenants. Why don't we talk more about how the landlord is portrayed in Shabbification.    Speaker 1  17:00   since this is the story, primary of the landlords, not so much on the tenant. You know, normally in this sort of films and these sort of documentaries, the story falls in tenant, because the tenant is the one who is seen as likable and sympathetic person, and that's how, and that's usually a more preferable framing angle. But in my story, my story is a story of a merchant class, or like a more, like a war on the merchant class, the war on landlords. Because in the state of New York, no matter how small or large of a landlord you are, whether you own one unit or 1000 by a lot of people in New York State Legislature as a landlord, you're seen as evil. They think you've done something wrong and you have to be punished. So that's the attitude to a lot of landlords, and although they're not that many small property owners, and sometimes we're not seen as a sympathetic I think this is the story that we need to tell, because some of them are like me. I am an immigrant to this country. Once I got an opportunity, I got my first rental property in Buffalo, New York, and right away, I've been renting out three units and lived in one, and I still do own it. Five years later, I live alongside with my tenants. When I go on vacations, they feed my cat, and when they go travel for work, I do take care of their properties. I water their plants, do things like that. So we do live as a small community, and this is something that a lot of people do in Buffalo, because it's a working class city. It's very hard to be able to afford a single family home. Right away, what you can do is acquire one of these properties, either a two unit, three or four unit, because when you're four units less, then you can do an FHA loan, which I did, and you can put minimum amount down, which I did, and then day one, right away, the income from the tenants was paying off my mortgage, right? That's kind of how I can build generational wealth. But not only that, that's how I can start my journey of home ownership and hopefully building generational wealth in the future, as I've said. And I also have my own passion for buildings, and we did a lot of renovations with my family on that property. So there's a lot of heart and soul in that space. And laws like rent control and Good Cause Eviction, they put a cap on people like me and how much we can grow. Because, as I've mentioned, the Good Cause Eviction in New York, it puts a cap on how far and how big people like me can grow. Because once you have 11 units, that's my cap. Once I have 11 units, I have subject to regulation, and somebody like me cannot afford having a tenant who would just never move out. So yeah, I think these laws, they intended to protect the needy. They intended to protect the families, but they do just the opposite. They. Just limit how much we can grow, and they also just make an environment within our properties very toxic, because tenants now basically have more rights than we do.   Keith Weinhold  20:09   Yeah, well, you're really humanizing the plight of the landlord here, Jen with your four Plex over there. For those that aren't familiar with the geography in western New York in Buffalo, sort of the opposite end of the state where New York City is. And, yeah, I mean, landlords are usually portrayed in media is these people that are sort of greedy and bumbling and they won't fix the broken air conditioner. And, you know, it's, it's unusual to me, Jen, that a lot of people tend to resent landlords, whom are often small business owners, but yet they champion other small business owners. And talk about how, you know, small business ownership is the very heart of America. I'm trying to figure out why that is, you know, maybe some tenants that just don't really understand how things work. Just think, well, why should I have to pay this landlord. All I'm doing is sort of renting air or renting space. But you know, one group of tenants that does not seem to resent landlords, Jen, in my experience, that is people that were previously homeowners and are now tenants. They don't seem to resent landlords, and that's probably because that tenant that has experience being a homeowner. They've seen bills for property tax and property insurance and mortgage principal and mortgage interest and maintenance and repairs. I think that's what makes the difference.    Jen Sidorova  21:33   Yeah, definitely. It's almost like, you know, when I lived with my parents, I didn't pay attention to the bills, like election bills or water bills or anything. But once you start living on your own, you now see how it gets deducted from your account, and then it changes you, adds you towards consumption, changes right? You now turn off the light when you leave and do just small things like that. And that's a similar psychology that works with people who previously owned their own homes. I think what the dynamic that's happening here with tenants is there's always going to be more tenants than landlords, so tenants have a lot more political power, and we see a lot of that in New York. We have a lot of tenant groups, tenant unions, who are very hold a little, a lot of political power. And it's one side of it, another side of it is that a lot of these policies do benefit large landlords, in a sense that once the small property owner is no longer able to keep up the property and they just foreclose on it, a larger landlord can always pick it up. And for large landlords, these costs of litigating with the tenant, or the cost of fixing a unit, or even the cost of having somebody live without paying for a few months, these are just the costs of running business, whereas for somebody like me, it's a significant chunk of my income, right? So at the moment, I think it's like 25% of my income is coming from the rentals, so it's significant. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, on the other side of political power, I just legislators who do not want to see private rentals. You know, small property owners having rentals and Damn, motivations are something else. It's almost like, if there's one conspiracy theory that I believe in, is that one you know, is that there is a war on the merchant class among some legislators, especially in the state of New York, who really just do not want to see small property owners providing housing to the community, and they would rather see it in in the hands of larger developers, and that's just the nature of how political process works, sometimes.   Keith Weinhold  23:45   in the broad business world, large institutional corporations, they're often pro regulation for just the reason you talked about it helps put smaller operators out of business that can't bear the expense of dealing with the regulation. But yeah, your film Shabbification, it helps underscore the fact that rent control, it stifles the free market in the process of price discovery. I mean really that price discoveries, that is the process of supply versus demand, with the referee being the price and finding that right rent amount, and amidst this low housing supply we have, it's just really bad timing for any jurisdiction to enact rent control. Existing landlords stop improving property. Builders stop building new property, and it can make landlords want to sell, like we touched on earlier. But also I'd like to talk about making the other case, the case for rent control. When we come back, we're talking with public policy expert Jan siderova, the maker of a film called shabbatation, where we come back. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine at. Ridge lending group  NMLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties, they help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President changley Ridge personally. Start now, while it's on your mind at Ridge lendinggroup.com that's Ridge lendinggroup.com.   Your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings if your money isn't making 4% you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work. With minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest, year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor too, earn 8% hundreds of others are text family, 266, 866, learn more about freedom. Family investments, liquidity fund on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text, family 266, 866,   Caeli Ridge  26:32   This is Ridge Lending Group's president, Caeli Ridge. Listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and remember, don't quit your Daydream.   Keith Weinhold  26:52   Welcome back to Get Rich Education. We're talking with a really interesting guest, Jen Sidorova. She's the maker of a new film called Shabbification. This centers on rent control and dilapidated housing conditions. And Jen, you know, I've talked about here on both this episode and another episode a few weeks ago about the deleterious downstream consequences of rent control. It benefits a small group of people in the short term and ends up with deteriorated neighborhoods in a lot of municipalities, but I like to look at things from the other side. What is the case for rent control?   Jen Sidorova  27:27   So I think the the original story behind the rent control in New York City was that in the 70s, it was just really dire situation, kind of what we're going through right now. Right now in New York we have the housing crisis that's the worst in the last 50 years, so basically right around the 70s again. So the current vacancy rate is like 2% and at the same time, we have between 20 to 60,000 rent stabilized rent control units that are vacant because landlords just do not want to put them in more on the market, because talking just in New York City here, yeah, just New York City. And New York City has roughly 1 million of rent stabilized or rent control properties altogether. But yeah, so what is the case for rent control, right? So in my opinion, what is the most problematic saying about rent control or rent stabilization right now, the way the current laws are in New York City is that the property itself is being stabilized or controlled. It's not the person. It doesn't matter how much money you're making. If you're making half a million dollars, you can still live in an apartment that's like 500 $600 a month, right?   Keith Weinhold  28:38   You can have your second lavish vacation home out in the Hamptons, and it doesn't matter.    Jen Sidorova  28:42   Yeah, you can live in Texas for like, nine months out of a year, and come back to New York City for the summer, and then people do that. That's like, not, I'm not making it up. It's a real thing. People are basically hoarding these rent stabilized rent control units, and they just never let them go. And that definitely pushes out young people out of the city. It pushes immigrants out of the city, because people, yeah, all the newcomers. So that's what's going on. So instead of having a property itself being controlled, what could be done? Maybe like a voucher program, maybe like a housing voucher program, but we can only do this if we let the rent control and rent stabilization laws sunset. So once the current tenants move out, that has to be put back on the market, right? So what we could do is the housing voucher program maybe, so that we will always have people in the society that need a little bit of help, but it shouldn't be in such a way that they it's the landlord who is paying for it, right? So if there's a housing voucher, they can live wherever and however that program works in the sense that whoever picks up the rest of the bill, as long as it's not a landlord directly. Yeah, so that's how I see it. And I think just other things that can be done is better zoning regulation that allow more buildings to be built a lot of New York City. Is like a museum, right? We have a lot of historic buildings, a lot of preservation of all the buildings, but we have to reevaluate that, because we don't necessarily have to have the East Village look like a museum if we don't have enough housing, right? So we have to reassess of how much of those policies we still want to hold on to, and then maybe also building codes. Sometimes it's really hard to expand or have more units within the same building. If I have a four unit property and I want to convert it into five units, I am subject to whole different regulation and a whole different bunch of coding, whereas my square footage remains the same. So I think we have to revisit that, because a lot of these new materials that we work with when building are safe right now. So maybe we could let people do more with their properties, and that way we provide more house.   Keith Weinhold  30:50   Yeah. Well, some of this comes down to, how do you get politicians to say no to rent control, which I believe is part of the motivation of your film?    Jen Sidorova  31:01   Right, So the motivation behind myself was that I bought my property in 2019 I went under contract in 2019 and I fully acquired the rights in March of 2020 and between the August of 2019 and 2020 we had a new law passed that was housing stability and Tenant Protection Act 2019 in New York State, and that kind of put a cap on how much I can raise the rent if the tenant remains the same. And at the time when I found that out, I was like, well, that's kind of quirky, but whatever, what can I do? But then a year from that, like in 2021 we had a new mayoral candidate who was a socialist, openly socialist person, and they were advocating for rent control. And at the time, I had an opportunity to go to do a film workshop, and I was thinking, so what is that I really wanted to write film about? And I was this, definitely rent control, because it's relevant for me. It's the story of my people among small property owners, and that's how I did it. And I really want policy action. The idea behind this film, the goal is policy change, right? But this short film is only the beginning of my project, which is exploration of the topic prevent control in the state of New York and everywhere else in the country, and we keep interviewing more people, more experts, and to convert into a larger film, and then hopefully, like a full feature documentary, in order to educate both policymakers and the public about what rent control can do. And eventually, we do hope for policy change in New York, and hopefully, with this film, no more new rent control can happen, or at least when politicians start those bills, they take a look and talk to me and make some changes.    Keith Weinhold  32:52   Well, you're really doing some good work there. I appreciate that. I mean, rent control is analogous to price controls, and we see what happens when there's price controls per se foods like you've seen in other nations in previous decades, and that's how you end up with bread lines, because producers don't want to produce bread when they would have to take a loss and they can't profit on selling that bread. You see a shortage of housing come up just the same, like you do with bread. Well, tell us some more about Buffalo and its market. You had touched on it previously. I think they have lots of older two to four unit buildings there. It sounds like you found one of the four plexes where you could do the owner occupied thing. FHA, three and a half percent down 12 month owner occupancy period. Minimum credit score only needs to be 580 at last check, which is the same way I began with the four Plex building. But yeah, let's learn more about the buffalo housing market. Just a little bit there with rental properties and then the rising tide against Airbnb, like you touched on last month when we met in person.   Jen Sidorova  33:56   Right, so a lot of those properties, a lot of those older homes, were built around the late 1800s beginning or 1900 and that's how they used to build back in the day. Because what would happen is that a large Victorian home with two primarily stories, with two large floors and then maybe an attic and a basement, but one family would live on one floor and another on the second floor. So they were originally built for two homes, but at that time, both families would own that space, right? So there would be co owned by two families. Mine was also an originally a two family home that was converted into a four unit because the previous owners made an addition a lot of young families, that's how they start when they cannot afford a single family home. That's how they start with home ownership and the money that they make for with the rentals. That's how they pay mortgage partially, or maybe that's how they pay the taxes, depending on where you live in the city, sometimes tax burden can alone be very high. So as I've mentioned, we had some mayoral candidates talking about rent control, but recently we started having Airbnbs being regulated in Buffalo. And so there's a few districts in the city where Airbnb is regulated, and my district does not fall into that, and I actually am on four of my units. One is occupied by me. Two are long term tenants, and one which is the newest and the nicest one. I decided to make Airbnb interesting because I did not want to risk, you know, giving it to a long term tenant, because it's just such a nice unit. It's a lot of investment that went in there, so I didn't want it to be provided by somebody who would never leave, because the, you know, environment is just so toxic. You just don't want to take chances, unless you like, really believe in the time. But I don't know people are out here. So I decided to keep it Airbnb. And so because some of the other parts of the city are regulated, and mine is not. I am the beneficiary of that regulation because I get a lot, all of those clients, right, all those Airbnb client so in that sense, funny enough, I am benefiting from some parts of the city being regulated because my my part is not. So all the clients go to me. I do have an Airbnb right now, but we're definitely at the risk of all of the city being regulated. And I think a lot of people complain, right? People who lived in the city for a long time, allegedly, they started complaining to the city council about not recognizing their neighborhood because of Airbnb. But I think what legislators need to understand is that my generation, millennials and Gen Z. That's how we live our lives. We share our assets, right? It's like a big millennial and Gen Z thing that the Airbnb itself is a millennial thing, that this is just will be recognized, that assets like cars and houses, they can be shared, you don't have to have that many of them, even from the unit in the unit that I live in. When I I went out on a trip to Long Island last week, and I airbnbied my own unit. And so that's just how it is. That's just a little lifestyle. And when I see new people who stay in Airbnb on my street, it doesn't bother me. I kind of enjoy a little bit of a variety. But, you know, sometimes it's almost like a culture clash or a generational shift when it comes to thinking about properties and housing ownership. Yeah, that's just my experience.   Keith Weinhold  37:33   Younger generations embrace the sharing economy, and that is quite the mixed use building that you have there with your four Plex in Buffalo, you've got one unit that's a primary residence, a second unit that's a short term rental, and then two long term rental units. There's some diversification of income and utility, for sure. Well, Jen, tell us more about how our audience can connect with you, and especially how they can watch Shabbification.   Jen Sidorova  38:00   So Shabbification, right now is in the film festival circuit, so it's not available to watch yet. Although, if anyone reaches out directly to me through Instagram, my handle is @Jen_Sidorova, which is my first underscore, my last name, anyone can just reach out directly to me and I will send them a screener, and they can watch the full film. And also on my Instagram page, I do put a lot of like other content about buildings, and a lot of like videos so and some, you know, B roll footage that we haven't used in the film, but you can watch it in my Instagram. So yeah, definitely check it out. I also do write for Reason Foundation, and you can find it on my profile, my policy writing work. You can find it at reason.com and it's just under my name, pretty much Instagram and reason website.   Keith Weinhold  38:51   Jen, thanks so much for your Shabbification project. I really think it's going to help people see an important part of American society in a different light. It's been great having you here on the show.   Jen Sidorova  39:02   Thank you so much.   Keith Weinhold  39:09   I talked to Jen some more outside of our interview. Her buffalo four Plex has a high flying 1.04% rent to price ratio. I crunched it out that is super strong for a four unit building, but it is older, and like she said in the interview, she did make some substantial renovation to it, yeah, rent control is a bad plan. You know, on an episode a few weeks ago, I mentioned to you about last month's White House proposal for a sort of rent control light, that was such a bad plan. I told you that it only applies to property owners of 50 plus units, and rent increases were capped at 5% a year. Well, I dug into that release from the White House briefing room, and it's almost like they know it won't work, because. Oh my gosh, this is almost humorous. Economists and any long term thinkers will tell you that rent control doesn't work because you won't get any new builds. Well, the White House release Wood said it won't apply to new builds. It's almost like someone told them, like, hey, this won't work for that reason. So then they wrote that sentence in there, which just undermines so much of it. And economists will also tell you that what doesn't work because owners don't want to improve property well, yet, the White House release actually said it would not apply to substantially renovated property. I mean, my gosh, with these carve outs and all the other caveats that are in it that I described a few weeks ago, this White House rent control planet has no shot of going anywhere. It is lip service virtue signaling, and also would not get past a divided Congress. Really bad plan. In fact, how doomed to failure is wide scale rent control. Well, don't worry, the federal government hasn't regulated rent on private buildings since World War Two. Yeah, it's been 80 years, and it took World War Two scale conditions to bring it. Thanks again to today's guest, Jen Sidorova, with reason.com. Again, like I mentioned earlier, if you want to deploy some of your more liquid funds for a potential 8% return at the same place where I've been getting an 8% return for years, you can make a loan to a long standing real estate company for their property rehabs and other operations. This might really help you out. You can learn more by texting FAMILY to 66866, lots of great shows coming up here at GRE to actionably build your Real Estate Wealth until next week, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your daydream.   Unknown Speaker  41:53   Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively.   Keith Weinhold  42:21   The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building, GetRichEducation.com

Research Director for California YIMBY, professional city planner and author of Arbitrary Lines, Nolan Gray, joins us to discuss how zoning impacts our communities, affordability of retail and commercial real estate. Zoning laws contributing to the affordable housing crisis and what we can do about it. Shifting from NIMBY to YIMBY mindset requires understanding benefits of growth. How zoning laws prevent new development, causing housing shortages and limiting entrepreneurship. California's statewide legalization of accessory dwelling units can be seen as a successful zoning reform example. We discuss how cities like Austin and Minneapolis have seen price stabilization by allowing for more mid-rise multi-family housing near transit and job-rich areas. Learn how to connect with local policymakers and planners to advocate for policy changes that encourage more housing supply. Resources mentioned: Show Notes: GetRichEducation.com/514 You can follow Nolan on X @mnolangray For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 For advertising inquiries, visit: GetRichEducation.com/ad Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREmarketplace.com/Coach Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Complete episode transcript:   Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai   Keith Weinhold  00:00 Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, if you don't take the right action, inflation will make you poorer. Then the affordable housing crisis keeps your tenant as your tenant is zoning. What's ruining American cities in keeping starter homes unaffordable or just plain extinct in some areas, how do we get more apartments and more density built today on Get Rich Education. When you want the best real estate and finance info, the modern Internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls and you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies disclaimers. Ugh. At no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life. See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of ours myself. It's got a dash of humor, and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple text, GRE to 66866, and when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course, completely free. It's called the Don't Quit Your Daydream Letter, and it wires your mind for wealth. Make sure you read it. Text GRE to 66866, text GRE to 66866.   Corey Coates  01:38 You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.   Keith Weinhold  01:54 Welcome to GRE from Calgary, Alberta to Tirana Albania and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you are listening to get rich education. When most investors think about inflation, they get it mostly wrong. Their strategy is inflation hedging. And you know, even if you successfully hedge inflation, you are really missing out. You've really got to get fired up about beating inflation. When did you get your first job? Like your first real job in your life? Let's say you did that when you were age 18. Well, that work that you did when you were 18, that created value for somebody else. And you could have done anything with your valuable youth, but instead, you chose to provide value by focusing your time and your energy to sweep floors or enter data into a spreadsheet for somebody else. You were paid for that work that you did. You were paid in dollars, well, if you just tried to store your finite energy that you expended for that employer into dollars, you will lose. Your value will be coerced away from you by your government that just incessantly and relentlessly debases the dollar that you earned at age 18, because they just keep printing more of them. Well, that money printer, which creates the inflation is then an extraction of your resources. Yeah, they extracted your resources, of your time, energy and ingenuity away from you when you were 18, and even the work that you do today, its value will get extracted away from you too. If you say, store dollars under your mattress, if you instead invest it so that its growth rate keeps up with inflation, well, then all you've done is hedge inflation. My point is, get upset about how the system extracts resources from you. And my other point is, don't hedge. Hedge just means that you're treading water. Position yourself to win instead, because you can when you buy income producing property with a loan, you don't just hedge against the inflation. You win three ways at the same time. You probably know that's called the inflation Triple Crown, a concept that I coined. You can watch the three part video series on net, free. It's now easier than ever to access, learn how to actually profit from inflation, not just hedge yourself against it. You can watch that, and it's friction free. There's no email address to leave or anything. Simply watch learn and maybe even be amazed at how you can do this. Those three videos are available. At getricheducation.com/inflationtriplecrown, that's sort of long, so you can also get there with getricheducation.com/itc. Again, that's getricheducation.com/itc. Before we talk with our guests about how zoning is making the affordable housing crisis, even worse, housing values and rents are really looking stable in today's environment. CoreLogic tells us that single family rents are up 3.2% annually. That's the highest rate in a year. And when it comes to prices, the NAR tells us that existing single family home prices hit a record high of $426,900 and that is an all time high. And note that that's existing homes, not new. So median existing homes are basically 427k now. And what does that really mean? Well, that is up 4.1% year over year, the real estate market continues to be it's sort of this tale of the equity rich versus the affordability challenged. Are you equity rich or are you affordability challenged? Well, the more property that you own, the more equity rich you are feeling, that you're going to feel, and oftentimes you're renting out property to the affordably challenged. Of course, the big buzz and a potential really turning point in the economy here or not, it really began about 10 days ago. That's when America reported weak jobs numbers, and that set the unemployment rate from 4.1% up to 4.3%. Citigroup and JP Morgan are now predicting half point Fed rate cuts in both September and November, not just quarter point cuts anymore. I mean, gosh, if there's one thing that we really know, it's that nobody really knows anything. Starting about two years ago, everyone thought a recession was eminent. Bloomberg even said there was a 100% chance that we'd have one by last year. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Everyone thought there would be six or seven Fed rate cuts this year. Wrong, wrong, wrong. You can't even completely count out of rate cut at the next meeting. I mean, sheesh, before that time, we still have two new CPI reports to come out and another jobs report. So, you know, over the long term, this is just how people act. They tend to get ahead of themselves and overreact, and that's really more of a stock market investor sort of thing. And yeah, despite the volatility, you know, us real estate investors are here more chill than Snoop Dogg was at the Olympics. All this fear, what it does is it pushes money into bonds. And when money goes into bonds, it makes mortgage rates go down, and they recently hit 16 month lows near 6.4% and if rates stay low, millions of additional Americans will be able to qualify to buy property that couldn't before, and that could really put more upward pressure on property prices, more than this 4.1% year over year appreciation that we're currently seeing. We know that lots of investors are buying properties like you, getting equity rich and serving the affordability challenge. In fact, 60% of Home Builders indicated that they sold homes to investors from February through April, while 40% reported that they didn't sell to investors. And investors now represent wholly 25% of both new and resale residential transactions and among builders that sold to investors in the past 90 days, 69% of them sold to mom and pop investors. Mom and pop investors, they're loosely defined as those that own one to 10 rental units. They may very well be you. Institutional investors, those that own 10 plus investment properties in this home builders definition here. Well, those institutional investors, they accounted for just 4% of investor sales nationally. So again, more home builders are selling to small real estate investors, those that own one to 10 units. Well, now in almost 10 years of doing the show here, we've never had a full discussion about zoning, and really this is the time. Okay, this ends today because we describe how it's contributing to the affordable housing crisis and what we can do about it. I mean, anymore you really can't find a brand new build 250k starter home anymore, unless maybe it's a tiny home, which then really isn't a full home, and you sacrifice your lifestyle. Well, zoning is a big reason why the Supreme Court decision that deemed zoning constitutional that occurred in 1926. Yes, that's going to turn 100 in the year 2026 that Supreme Court decision that infamously referred to apartments as parasites. Wow. But yet is some zoning good? I mean, say that you and your family have your nice, quiet, single family home on an idyllic half acre lot. Well, if that's the case, should it be allowed that Bitcoin mining facility with its loud cooling fans is built right next to you I'll ask our guest expert about that, and what about say less offensive transgressions, like a condo board that says that you can't rent your unit out. How much zoning is too much or too little? I mean, is someone just being overly sensitive if a duplex is built next to their single family home and they complain about that? So we'll get into all of that. And it really comes down to limiting this McMansionization risk type of nimbyism, not in my backyardism. That's what it is. Again, you can watch the three free videos on how you can substantially and actionably profit from inflation, not hedge, but profit from inflation. It's the inflation triple crown. Be sure to check out those three videos at getricheducation.com/itc. I learned about this week's guest through reason.com we met in person at last month's Freedom Fest in Las Vegas. He is the research director for California Yimby, yes. Yimby, not NIMBY, that is yes in my backyard. And he's a professional city planner. He's the author of the book Arbitrary Lines, how zoning broke the American city and how to fix it. Welcome to GRE. Nolan Gray,   Nolan Gray  12:24 thanks so much, Keith. It's a pleasure to be with you, Nolan,   Keith Weinhold  12:26 you wrote one article for reason.com with such an interesting title, five words, Abolish Zoning-All of it, you're pretty emphatic there at what you'd like to have happen before we discuss that, why don't you tell us in your words what zoning is?   Nolan Gray  12:44 So for the past 100 years, America's cities have been running a grand experiment and how they're governed. Essentially, what we've done, beginning in the 1920s is we said for every single parcel in the city, we're going to assign an allowed use. So most people, if you've played Sim City, you know this might be residential, commercial, industrial, but it goes into so much more detail than that. Different types of residential might be allowed in different parts of the city, commercial, etc, and the vast majority of most American cities, the only form of residential that's allowed is a detached, single family home, right? So that's one half of it, the second half of what zoning is doing, it's placing arbitrary density limits. So the amount of actual housing or amount of floor area that you can build on any particular lot. And it's important to distinguish this from other forms of land use regulation, because in many cases, these rules aren't actually based on any health or safety concerns, but instead a sort of social project of engineering what a correct city should look like. And as I argue in the book and we can discuss over the course of this conversation, is I argue that these rules have actually had incredible harms for our cities and are at the root of our current housing affordability crisis.   Keith Weinhold  13:45 I think zoning initially, it began in New York City about 100 years ago.   Nolan Gray  13:50 Yeah, so New York City adopted one of the first modern zoning ordinances in 1916 a handful of other cities did so as well. So I'm coming to you from California, Berkeley, California also adopted zoning in this year. And essentially, what happened after New York City adopted it was the federal government put together what's called the standard zoning Enabling Act. They mailed that out to every single state in the country and started putting a lot of pressure on states to adopt zoning and allow local governments to adopt zoning. And then, with the rise of the Federal financial system, as part of the New Deal, housing programs. In many cases, local governments were required or strongly, strongly incentivized to adopt the zoning codes to be eligible for certain federal benefits.   Keith Weinhold  14:29 You know, maybe philosophically, one might think, Nolan, well, America stands for freedom, and I should get to do what I want with my plot of land. But if everyone can do whatever they want with their plot of land. I mean, does that mean that my neighbor then could start a sloppy hog farm, or the neighbor on the other side of me could start a battery factory with smoke stacks? So do those sort of things help make the case for zoning?   Nolan Gray  14:57  Yeah, that's a great question, you know. So before the rise of zoning. And we actually had a lot of rules for these classic nuisances, these classic externalities, things like smoke, smells, noise, or even just lots and lots of traffic generation. We had rules to say, Hey, if you want to operate certain types of uses, you need to be in a certain designated area where we're going to tolerate a much higher level of externalities. Zoning does that, but it also does so much more. And it's those other aspects that I think are ill conceived. So for example, of course, we don't want a slaughterhouse next to a single family home, but zoning might also say, Oh, by the way, you're not allowed to have a duplex next to a single family home. You're not allowed to start a home based business. You're not allowed to operate certain commercial uses out of certain strip malls in certain parts of the city. You're not allowed to build anything unless you have a certain amount of number of off street number of off street parking spaces, which can make adaptive reuse of historic properties very difficult. So I think absolutely there's a core of land use regulation that makes sense, that's focused on neighbors, not imposing costs on each other, but our current system goes so much further than that, in many ways, imposes new and unconceived costs, including increasing housing prices, limiting housing options in many of our neighborhoods, making it harder to start a business or to have neighborhoods serving retail in many of our neighborhoods.   Keith Weinhold  16:09 So perhaps zoning has just simply gone too far, and you touched on it earlier. It seems to me that about three quarters of the area of most cities have zoning restricted only to single family home building, for example, and they ban apartments completely. So maybe, as we try to find the right balance of how much zoning is right, tell us more about really the thesis of your book and why we should ban zoning completely.   Nolan Gray  16:38 Of course, we need certain regulations for externalities and nuisances, and to certain extent that can be resolved through litigation, but ideally you look for it and you say, okay, look, there are certain areas where we're going to tolerate certain nuisances and other places where we will not. But beyond that, I think so much of what our land use regulations do is actually causing harm. It's preventing property owners from using their property in ways that are not in any meaningful sense, harmful to their neighbors. It's created this context where now if you want to build just about anything in the typical American city, you have to go through multiple public hearings, you have to do an environmental report in some states, you have to get the permission of local elected officials, you have to undertake all these actions that heavily politicize every new development. And so what we get is so many of our neighborhoods and so many of our cities are locked in amber. And this is partly why, over the last few years, where we've seen a huge amount of demand flow into housing, we've simply had these extreme shortages because markets could not respond with the supply that many of our communities needed. So for example, a starter home in many US cities today might be a townhouse, it might be a two bedroom condo, it might be a single family home on a 2500 square foot lot, but those are precisely the forms of housing that in many cases, our zoning codes make illegal to build. So we're essentially saying if you can't afford at least a certain level of housing, you're not allowed to live in many parts of the community, if in the community altogether, or the same with businesses, if you want to start a small business that might not necessarily have any impact on your neighbors, you might require a special permit. You might require a hearing. You might require to attend a hearing where your competitors are going to show up and oppose your project, purely on a cynical basis. So what it's done is it's created this incredibly disruptive system that's prevented our cities from being entrepreneurial and adaptive, and I think this is the root of a lot of the problems that we're facing today.   Keith Weinhold  18:17 Oh, you really surface some good points there Nolan, when I think of over zoning, and we talk about how a lot of times you can't build anything more than a single family home, that certainly creates a lot of problems. Gentrification is sort of a bad word, kind of sprucing up community so much, raising the value so much, that one problem is that familial bonds decay when children that grew up in, say, Southern California, can no longer afford to live there, so they have to move to lower cost Las Vegas, a four to five hour drive away. Excessive gentrification. You touch that, it also harms mobility. If you want to move from Atlanta to Boston for a tech job but you can't find housing, you're not going to move there, so therefore, talent doesn't get matched up with opportunity.   Nolan Gray  19:07 That's exactly right. I mean, this is a at the national scale. This is an important piece of the puzzle, which is we've made it hardest to actually move to some of our most productive places. So as you mentioned, places like Los Angeles, San Francisco, Boston, New York City, for all their problems, these are incredibly productive places where folks can move to and get high paying jobs and other good educational opportunities, but in many cases, these are the most expensive cities in our country, and it's in no small part because of the many rules and regulations that make it so hard to build housing in those contexts. So you're exactly right. Folks actually turn down higher paying jobs or better opportunities and move to places simply because the housing is more affordable, and you pick up on a really important piece of this, which is in many cases, this is breaking apart families. So a lot of folks who are born and raised in a place like California, their parents might have been able to buy their home in the 70s or 80s or 90s, but they can't afford a home. They have no long term path to actually staying in the community. And so what you're actually seeing is neighborhoods and communities being ripped apart. If the situation in places like California has actually got to be so bad that many of the people who are in a certain sense, beneficiaries of the status quo, maybe they own their home and they're seeing the value go up and up and up. They're also saying, Oh, my children can't afford to live near me. I don't ever get to see my grandkids. The person who serves me at the hospital or at the supermarket can't afford to live here, and we're having trouble keeping folks on. The crisis got to be so bad in certain places like California that we're starting to see tremors of reform. But one of the things I like to say is, if you want to fall into a California style housing crisis, most parts of the country don't need to do anything the rules you have on the books have you moving in that trajectory, right? But if you want to remain a place where we can build more housing, where folks can buy their own home or buy small apartment buildings and start to build wealth, you have to allow for more supply to come online.   Keith Weinhold  20:42 Sure, zoning so that you can't build anything other than single family homes compounds the affordability crisis. There really just isn't any such thing as a 250k starter home anymore, anywhere.  You represent California, yimby and you live there in the state where people think of ground zero for excessive regulation and taxation and zoning too. I do read more about some zoning being relaxed in California, allowing for the building of an adu on a property, for example, to help build the density. But before you talk about some of the cracks that are actually starting to help break this down. Can you give any bad examples that are especially problematic there in your home state, Nolan?   Nolan Gray  21:27 For the past 50 or 60 years, California, has been stuck under a NIMBY paradigm, not in my backyard, right? Every single new project is politically contentious, has to undertake an environmental report, has to undergo multiple public reviews, it takes years and years to get a permit, and that's if the housing is legal to build at all. As you know, in so many parts of California, there's very little to no new construction happening, and that's because of the rules on the books that make it so hard to build. To the extent that we allow new housing to be built, we have a whole bunch of mandates that force the housing to be a lot more expensive, and even if all that pencils again, it can take two years to get fully entitled in a permit. And so of course, the only housing that actually ends up getting built is quite expensive. And some folks say, Well, if we allow new housing to be built in California, it's all expensive. Well, yes, if you only allow a trickle of new housing in a very expensive context, of course the new housing is going to be expensive. But if you look to places like Texas and Florida, for example, that build lots and lots of new housing and don't have all of these costly mandates, they actually can build a lot of new housing, and actually can keep prices relatively under control and create that new supply of what we call missing middle, low rise housing. So as you mentioned, the tide, I think, is turning in California. The silver lining of things getting so bad is that the culture is shifting. And what we've seen is the emergence of this new yimby movement, or yes, in my backyard. And these are folks are saying, hey, not only is not building more, not this horrible threat to my community, but it's actually this enriching opportunity. It's good to have a growing, healthy, affordable community where folks are building, folks are able to move to high opportunity jobs, and folks are able to have choice in the neighborhood they live in.   Keith Weinhold  22:55 We're talking about zoning and how that's made the affordable housing crisis worse in the United States with California, yimbys, Nolan, gray Nolan. Tell us more about just the exact sorts of codes that are problematic. We touched on apartment building bans, but I think we're also looking at things like off street parking requirements. You need to have so many off street parking spaces before you can build. Otherwise you can't build. You need to have a minimum lot size of a half acre or a quarter acre in order to build here. So can you talk more specifically about just some of those exact problems on the tactical level that are compounding here?   Nolan Gray  23:34 Yeah, that's exactly right. So where are the housings illegal to build altogether. In many cases, there are a whole bunch of rules that increase the price of that housing. So in urban context, for example, where you might want to be building apartments, many cases, you might have parking requirements that say, Well, you have to have two parking spaces per unit or one parking space per bedroom. In many cases, that's what consumers might demand, and you would have to build that to lease out those units or to sell those condos. But if you're building in a context where you might be near a transit line, or you might be near a university campus, or you might be near a major job center, many of your renters might say, hey, actually, I would prefer to have a more affordable rental or a more affordable condo, because we know that there's no such thing as free parking. You know, if it requires a structure or excavation work, parking can easily add $50,000 to the price of a new unit, and so some consumers might want to pay for that, eat that cost, have a parking space. But many consumers, when we relax these rules and say, Hey, developers, you have the incentives and the local knowledge needed to decide how much parking to build. In many cases, we find that they share parking with other uses, so commercial during the day and residential at night, or they allow renters to opt into parking and to pay for parking, but what you get for many households is a cheaper unit. Now another rule that you mentioned, which is very important, is minimum loss size rules. This is certainly a lot more relevant. More relevant and suburban and rural context. But what we say is, if you want to be able to have a single family home, you have to be able to afford at least a certain amount of land. Now, when if you have a context where you don't have water and sewer installed, and you're operating on septic and well water, you do need larger lots as a matter of public health, but in most suburban context, these rules essentially serve no function except to increase the price of housing and the ability to determine what type of housing can be built where is the ability to determine who gets to live where. So if we say, well, you're not allowed to live in this neighborhood unless you can afford a 10,000 square foot lot or a 20,000 square foot lot, what we're essentially doing in 2024 where land is a major factor in affordability, is we're saying that a whole bunch of middle working class households are not allowed to live in these neighborhoods, or they're not allowed to ever become homeowners and start building wealth in the same way that past generations did. And you look at places like Houston, for example, where they don't have zoning, but they have a lot of zoning-like rules. In 1998 they reduced their minimum lot sizes from 5000 square feet citywide to 1400 square feet citywide. And what this did was this kicked off a townhouse and small lot single family home building boom that has helped to keep cities like Houston affordable a whole new supply of starter homes that again, offered that first step on the ladder of home ownership and wealth building.   Keith Weinhold  25:52 Over the decades, home prices have outpaced incomes. There are a few reasons for that. One of them is inflation, with wages not keeping up with the real rate of inflation, but the other are barriers to development. We're talking more about that with Nolan gray. When we come back, you're listening to Get Rich Education. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine at Ridge Lending Group NMLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Chaley Ridge personally. Start Now while it's on your mind at ridgelendinggroup.com. That's RidgeLendingGroup.com. Your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings. If your money isn't making 4% you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation, let the Liquidity Fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest, year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account.  The minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor too. Earn 8% hundreds of others are text FAMILY to 66866, learn more about Freedom Family Investments, Liquidity Fund, on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text, FAMILY to 66866.     Robert Kiyosaki  27:50 This is our Rich Dad, Poor Dad author, Robert Kiyosaki. Listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Weinhold, and the reason I respect Keith, he's a very strong, smart, bright young man.   Keith Weinhold  28:14 Welcome back to Get Rich Education . We're talking with California, yimbys Nolan gray about zoning and how these barriers to development are compounding the affordable housing crisis, and there sure are a number of barriers to multi family production. I really think that's what wild it comes down to. You touched on it earlier, and it's something that I spoke about with our audience a month or two ago. Nolan, and that is, mmm, multi families, missing middle these two to four unit properties, duplexes to fourplexes, where they're only constructing about 40% as many of those here in recent years than they did 20 to 30 years ago. The way I think of it is when you lift barriers to multifamily production, of course, you incentivize builders. If a developer buys an acre of land for, say, $90,000 and they had planned to build one unit on that All right? Well, there's one set of inputs in income that a developer can look at. But instead, if you allow them to go from building one unit on this plot of land to two units on it, it increases their profit potential, and it incentivizes developers from that side as well.   Nolan Gray  29:23 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so there's been some great work by some friends over at the American Enterprise Institute. What they've done is they've created a nationwide map of mcmassionization risk. So when we have these conversations, we say, hey, let's allow for a range of housing typologies in more neighborhoods, duplexes, triplexes, small, low rise, multi family buildings, townhouses, the types of things that were commonly built in a range of neighborhoods before the rise of zoning. Every city in America has a neighborhood like this. That's a mixture of housing typologies. It would be illegal to build that today, but in many cases, we subject it to preservation requirements because we value it so much that we want to keep it. In any case, what happens when you don't allow that type of gradual incremental infill that keeps our communities affordable. What you get instead is the existing single family homes are converted into much larger, much more expensive single family homes. Now, again, there's nothing wrong with that. Many people might want to buy a smaller 19 fizzies bungalow and turn it into a much larger, 2500 square foot single family home, and God bless them if they want to do it. But what we have is rules on the books that say housing can only get more expensive, it can never get more affordable, or you can never unlock the wealth that's tied up in your land by building an adu or by building a duplex, or by creating more housing options for a range of households. And so that's really, really key. You know, the choice is not between, do we want our communities to change or not? The question is, do we want our communities to remain affordable and maybe change and have some more buildings built and more growth and more development. Or do we want our communities to change in the sense of they become more expensive? Folks retire and they move away, the neighborhood gradually becomes significantly more exclusionary, and young folks who moved grew up in the community can no longer afford to stay. That's the option facing many of our communities. And I think the yimby response to this is more housing construction is good and it's healthy and it's part of a thriving community.   Keith Weinhold  31:02 Yeah, Nolan, when we come at this from the familial perspective, like I brought up earlier, it seems like the more zoning there is, the more it benefits seniors and incumbents, the more it benefits the silent generation, the baby boomer generation, and maybe Gen Xers, and it disadvantages millennials and Gen Zers that really don't have their place yet.   Nolan Gray  31:24 Yeah, you know, it's tough. I would say it even hurts seniors, right? I mean, if they want their young adult children to be able to live near them, or, many cases, seniors like the option to be able to build an accessory dwelling unit in their backyard and maybe rent that out to friends or family, or maybe even you move into the adu and allow young adult children to move into the primary residence, or even just rent it out and have an additional source of income to supplement fixed incomes. There's reasons why folks, I think, at all different stages of their life, benefit for more flexibility in the rules that govern what can be built.   Keith Weinhold  31:52  Psychologically,  how do we turn one's mindset from a NIMBY mindset to a yimby mindset? I mean, if someone's got their single family ranch home that they want to live in in their senior years, and they want to see its value appreciate, so they don't want duplexes and fourplexes built next to them, rather than them saying no to turn them into saying yes. I mean, how do you get those people to understand that? Well, like this is the way for the next generation, for you to be able to live near your children and grandchildren?   Nolan Gray  32:21 Yeah, that's a great point. You know, I think when you go to these public hearings around projects, you hear relentlessly about the cost of new development, right? Folks speculating about traffic and runoff and other factors parking. We get that perspective. We get bombarded with that perspective. But what we don't get is the alternative perspective of the benefits of a community, remaining relatively affordable, remaining a place where teachers and nurses and firefighters can still afford to be able to own a home and live places, allowing for the kids who grew up in a neighborhood or a city to remain there. And in fact, even just the selfish appeal to the homeowner, there's not actually any evidence that new development happening around you necessarily reduces the price of your single family home, and in some cases, it could actually signal to the market, hey, there's actually development potential on this so when you do decide to maybe sell and move on, your land is potentially going to be more valuable because it has more development potential than it might under a strict exclusionary zoning scenario. So you know, of course, you try to make the altruistic case to people. Hey, think about future generations. Think about folks who maybe want to move to this community or stay in this community, but aren't going to be able to if we don't build housing. But even so, I think there's selfish reasons. If you want to have somebody who's going to check you out at the supermarket or serve you at a restaurant or be a home care nurse, eventually you got to have housing for folks like that. In many cases, new development happening around you is going to increase your land value. Now I would just try the rage of appeals and work people through it. And in many cases, you know, I think people will understand, yeah, okay, I understand we got to have some growth. They might have a perspective on what it should look like, and that's okay. But as long as we can get some consensus that we got to have some growth to accommodate demand the form it takes, we can have a healthy discussion over.   Keith Weinhold  33:57 Yeah, real community is the integration of all different types of people, and not school teachers living an hour away where they need to make a two hour round trip drive every day. Well, Nolan, as we're winding down here, can you give us any more successful zoning reform examples that maybe other communities can look to you touched on the success stories in Houston a bit. Are there some other ones?   Nolan Gray  34:21 Absolutely. Yeah. So one of the most successful things we've done in California has been statewide legalization of accessory dwelling units. Yeah, that's been key. That started in 2017 and that took a lot of legislation to get us to a place where we are today, but that's resulted in something like 80,00 ADU's permitted, since 2017. That's powerful stuff, right? That's 80,000 households that might have a home, or might be able to rent out a unit to young adult child or an aging parent. Really, really powerful. So I would suggest that folks look into that. That's the lowest of the low hanging fruit. Empower homeowners to add additional units to their properties, and by the way, we also allow you use to be added to multifamily properties, and we're seeing a lot of that happen as well. At other contexts, many cities, dozens of cities across the country. Have removed their minimum parking requirements, acknowledging that, hey, this is a huge cost that we're imposing on projects, developers who are close to consumers, who have, they have the incentives and local knowledge to get this question right. Let them decide. So that's been, I think, a big success. You know, certain cities like Austin and Minneapolis, for example, they've actually sort of kept their markets back under control amid all the chaos of the pandemic real estate market fluctuations by allowing for a lot more mid rise multi family on their commercial corridors and in Job rich areas and in places near transit, that's where we have a huge shortage, is these studios and one bedrooms. So young professionals who, if they can't find that unit, they're going to go bid up the price of a two or three bedroom unit, they're going to roommate up and be living in potentially overcrowded conditions. So Austin, Minneapolis, we, relative to peers, they built a lot of housing and have seen prices stabilize as a result. So there's a lot of different success stories, you know, I would say, if you're at all interested in this, talk to your neighbors about this issue. See what sorts of solutions might make sense for your community. You know, in a suburban or a rural community, ADUs or minimum loss size reform might make sense. And an urban community, removing your parking mandates, allowing for more multifamily, allowing for missing middle, make more sense.   Keith Weinhold  36:06 There sure are some encouraging signs. There was there any last thing that a person should know, especially a real estate investor type audience that's interested in buying a property and renting it out to a tenant for the production of income? Is there anything that our group really ought to know about zoning and the direction that things are moving, what to look for and what to be careful of?   Nolan Gray  36:28 Well, as your audience probably knows, you know that first essential step for your mom and pop local real estate investor is often a duplex, a triplex, a four Plex, historically, that was an absolutely essential source of middle class wealth building. Yeah, right. And you can see these in so many historic neighborhoods. And to the extent that we've made those exact typologies so incredibly hard to build, we've cut off this very valuable source of democratic, decentralized wealth building that we need to actually encourage as real estate investors and professionals, in many cases, you're an authority figure with your local policymakers and your local planners, and you can say to them, Hey, here's my perspective on what's happening in the market. You know, we have a shortage of a certain type of small scale multifamily or making this case. You know, I talked to a lot of elected officials, and when I say starter home, I think they still think of the bungalow on the 5000 square foot lot with the two car garage. But a starter home in 2024 might be a townhouse, two bedroom condo, a small lot, single family home. These are the types of stories that real estate investors and professionals are trusted advocates on, and you can make that case and explain to local policymakers. Hey, here's the change that we need or explaining. Hey, I wanted to add an additional unit to a property that I own, or I wanted to redevelop a property I own to add a lot more housing. And these were the barriers that I faced that's incredibly valuable information for your local policymakers and planners. And I would say, you know, look around many US, cities and states now have very active yimby or, Yes, in my backyard groups. Go connect up with them. You could be a valuable, trusted expert for them, somebody that they can learn more about the situation with real estate markets, and they can be more effective advocates for policy that I think a lot of us would like to see.   Keith Weinhold  37:58 And when it comes to changing NIMBY people to yimby people, and we look at esthetics and adu in the back, that really doesn't change aesthetics on the street front. And I've seen very smart, careful designs of duplexes, triplexes and fourplexes that really look just like single family homes from the Street View level. So there really are some ways around this. You've given us some really good ideas today. Nolan, hey, well, someone wants to learn more about you and your work and zoning. What's the best way for them to do that?   Nolan Gray  38:30 Well, I'm on the platform formerly known as Twitter. I'm @mnolangray, M, N, O, L, E, N, G, R, A, y, so feel free to find me there and reach out. And I have a book Arbitrary Lines, how zoning broke the American city and how to fix it. Check that out. If you're at all interested in this, always reach out. Love to hear from folks. Thanks so much for having me, by the way.   Keith Weinhold  38:50 All right, well, I hope our audience didn't zone out. It's been great. Chat with you. Nolan, thanks so much for coming on to the show. Yeah, a thought provoking discussion with California yimbys Nolan Gray there it's essentially illegal to build affordable housing in a lot of areas with the way that these zoning laws are written, allowing for more dense building that can limit this ugly urban sprawl, and this makes me think about an Instagram account that I follow. It's called how cars ruined our cities, or some names similar to that. It shows, for example, a picture of how a highway interchange in sprawling Houston has an area so large that you could fit an entire Italian town inside of it. And these sprawl problems compound when a lot size must be, say, at least a quarter acre or a half acre. The tide is turning toward allowing more dense building in some places like we touched on, but it's too bad that it took a. Visible housing crisis to make this happen. I mean, visible like more homeless people out on the street. It took that almost for municipalities to start doing something about all of this. Our guest has quite a following on X. Again, you can find his handle there @mnolangray on X and the image on his account cover it shows someone holding up a sign that reads, zoning kills dreams. Hmm, big thanks to the terrific Nolan gray today until next Monday, when I'll be back here to help you actionably build your Real Estate Wealth. I'm Keith Weinhold. Don't quit your Daydream.   Unknown Speaker  40:44 Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for  profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC, exclusively.   Keith Weinhold  41:12 The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building,  GetRichEducation.com.  

The King of Commercial Real Estate joins us to discuss office, hotels, apartments, retail, industrial and warehouse real estate. Many office building values are down 80%+. Is it headed straight to purgatory? According to Moody’s, the national office vacancy rate is 20%.  Offices have the double-whammy of higher interest rates and lower demand. Learn how feasible office to residential conversions are. For two years now, momentum has swung from Airbnbs to hotels. More apartment syndications will blow up from forthcoming interest rate resets. Commercial real estate often has higher prices than residential. Learn from our guest, Dolf de Roos, on creative ways to make low down payments.  Learn how to vet commercial tenants. We discuss adding carports to residential RE. Rich people are often vilified. They’re called “filthy rich” or “stinking rich”. Resources mentioned: Attend Dolf’s free live training: www.DolfLive.com For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 For advertising inquiries, visit: GetRichEducation.com/ad Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREmarketplace.com/Coach Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation   Complete episode transcript:   Automatically Transcribed With Podsqueeze   Keith Weinhold 00:00:01  Welcome to GRE! I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. There are many commercial real estate sectors. Large apartments, office, hotel, hospitality, retail, warehouse, industrial. Well, what's thriving? What's been beaten up so bad and is never coming back? And what's in a dip that's ripe for opportunity? Also creative deal structuring if you don't have a lot of money. It's the debut of the King of Commercial real estate here today and get rich education. When you want the best real estate and finance info, the modern internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls. And you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies. Disclaimers are at no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life? See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of ours myself. It's got a dash of humor and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple.   Keith Weinhold 00:01:13  Text gray to 66866. And when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course completely free. It's called the Don't Quit Your Daydream letter and it wires your mind for wealth. Make sure you read it. Text gray to 66866. Text gray 266866.   Corey Coates 00:01:41  You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.   Keith Weinhold 00:01:58  What does your read? From Tuscarora, Pennsylvania, to Tuscaloosa, Alabama, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Whitehill, and you're listening to get Rich education. Today's guest, the king of commercial real estate, is talented, dynamic, global, articulate, has both a wide range of knowledge and an expansive palette of creative strategies in both commercial and residential, where you can buy with little out of pocket. And he's going to share that with us today. That's coming up here shortly. Now, when we think about residential real estate, of course, that is a really wide world in itself.   Keith Weinhold 00:02:38  From condos to single family homes to tiny studio apartments. You could also divide it into short term and mid-term and long term rentals. And then you could also parse it by all of the geographic markets. Well, of course, the commercial real estate world has a ton of segments too, one of which is office, which I want to talk about because it's probably been the most downtrodden and beleaguered since 2020. But there are still some things that are misunderstood within office and even dividing things up that much. Let's take care not to broad brush stroke office real estate itself some smaller segments of office might be in decent shape today. Other office segments are in real trouble. Like we're talking about tall concrete and glass, office towers and a lot of business parks, too. Yeah, business park, sort of a campus like areas, like maybe what the comedy The Office had. He had Dunder Mifflin was in a business park.   Steve Carell 00:03:43  I'm just helping you invest in your future, my friend.   Oscar Nunez 00:03:46  It sounds like a get rich quick scheme.   Steve Carell 00:03:48  Yes. Thank you. You will get rich quick. We all will.   Keith Weinhold 00:03:52  yeah. I guess that's what Steve Carell's character. What Michael Scott from The Office says about prudent investing. Let's talk about office real estate and how that intersects with the housing market. And really a lot of this comes down to the office vacancy rate. Moody's tells us that 1 in 5 office spaces in this economy are empty. And that is the highest ever. And a lot of people think that it's going to go higher right now. Dayton, Ohio is the highest in the nation at 28%. These are office vacancy rates. Charleston, West Virginia's 27. Tulsa, Oklahoma 26. And Houston, Dallas and Austin are all in the top ten for the worst office vacancy rates. Now, a lot of city officials, they want to turn that into housing, and they want government funding in order to make that transition happen from office to residential. This is most attractive to cities if you can partially convert a building to have housing on upper floors, and then you just maintain some offices on lower floors and see that mix right there, that makes for a vibrant, lively downtown community, because that way you don't have downtowns that go quiet at 5:00.   Keith Weinhold 00:05:10  But a lot of these renovations, they just aren't that feasible. They call them ritzy conversions. That's kind of what this is known as. So office to residential. I mean that means you often got to deal with huge floor plates, overhaul mechanical systems, and you've even got to consider things like the fact that windows don't open in office buildings. And they've often got to for resin conversions. Well, with this prolonged high vacancy in offices. Well, where do these people that would have been in offices spend their time instead? Well, of course at home in their residential real estate. And oftentimes it is a one for one. You have one less person occupying an office for lots of that waking day, and that means one more person occupying their home. Well, that's one reason that people are increasingly willing to spend and pay more for homes because they're spending more time than ever there. And ever since the work from home movement and zoom from home movement, if you will, since that became commonplace for urban workers coming off the pandemic, you soon saw the hashtag auto.   Keith Weinhold 00:06:27  The return to office movement that began is where you've got to come into the office 2 to 3 days a week, and then a lot of companies try to ramp it up to 4 to 5 days per week. Some companies even said, yeah, come on in here. You've got to in order to be eligible for promotions. Well, a lot of people don't want to come into the office. We found that out now, especially younger workers. In fact. Did you ever hear of the term coffee bagging? Yes. Some workers are trying to game the system. Coffee bagging. That is the art of returning to the office to a quick hit. Just have a quick hit. You only badge in, get coffee, chat and peace out of there. Well, more people are doing this or they're staying at home than what you're often led to believe. So despite the RTL movement that you hear about the share of employed persons that work their average day from home, last year it rose to 35%, up from 34%, and that's per the BLS.   Keith Weinhold 00:07:31  Well, that's a little interesting to know, but it all comes down to that office vacancy rate, which is, like I said, a stubbornly high all time record 20% nationally, and it could go higher. If you're going to invest in office real estate today, I mean, you've really got to have some insider knowledge and invest smart.   Donald Trump 00:07:55  Did you use the word smart? so you said you went to Delaware State, but you forgot the name of your college. You didn't go to Delaware State. You graduated either the lowest or almost the lowest in your class. Don't ever use the word smart with me. Don't ever use that word. Oh, give me a break. Because you know what? There's nothing smart about you, Joe.   Keith Weinhold 00:08:16  oh, dear. Oh, one of those two men is our current president, and the other could be our next president. Oh, well, love him or hate him, I guess the Trump. Hey, he is the Art of the deal author. And when you think about the Trump name, you should think about seeing those letters on tall office buildings in hotels coming up on the show here in future weeks.   Keith Weinhold 00:08:39  We are stacked with great guests an NFL All-Pro, the president of the Mississippi Institute, the return of the tax free wealth author Tom Wheelwright, and also the incomparable financial firepower of Garrett Gunderson. That's all coming up here in future shows. Let's talk to the king of commercial real estate. This week's guest is a former high tech engineer turned real estate mogul and New York Times best selling author of the book Real Estate Riches. He is globally renowned for his ginormous real estate ventures and his mentorship. But his approach to real estate isn't just transactional, it's about strategic creativity and leveraging property investment for financial independence. Known as the King of commercial real estate. Hey, welcome here for your great debut. Joining us from Malta today. It stopped the roost.   Dolf de Roos 00:09:38  Thank you very much. It's my absolute pleasure to be here.   Keith Weinhold 00:09:41  Oh it's great to finally speak here on the show. And I know that a good segment of our international audience has been anticipating this episode. And often we think about commercial real estate today. Problems come to mind immediately, like the large apartment space with interest rates blowing things up over there, and then the office sector, which just seems to be dying and never coming back.   Keith Weinhold 00:10:03  So first of all, why don't you give us an overview on how various commercial sectors are doing today?   Dolf de Roos 00:10:09  There's always the things that you see on the surface, what you read in the newspapers and what you lead yourself to believe just on the sheer balance of probability. And then there's the reality of what is truly going on. And I'm always amused at the chasm between them. There's a big difference. And in fact, your ability to do well in real estate is largely dependent on the arbitrage between the markets perception of where things are at and the reality. Now, if we all follow the trends, you know, real estate doesn't go up linearly as mathematicians would say. It goes up in fits and starts with each peak a bit higher than the previous peak and each trough a bit higher than the previous trough. But in addition to that, real estate markets always overshoot so that when things are going well, when the public perception is that things are going well, Interest rates are low. There's good capital growth.   Dolf de Roos 00:10:59  People think it's going to go on forever. It will never end and they pay way too much for properties. We have the greater fool theory where no matter how big a fool you are to pay too much for a property, it doesn't matter, because next year they'll be an even bigger fool to pay even more for it. So everyone jumps into the market, overshoots, and then there's a strong correction. A bit like the 2008 GFC. It was on the cards. It was. The writing was on the wall, as they say, and then it corrects. But instead of correcting back to where it should be, it overshoots on the downside as well. And in Phoenix, where I'm based, at one stage we had 90,000 homes into foreclosure simultaneously, and they were selling them on the courthouse steps at the rate of one every 56 seconds for initially 20,020 5000, and people thought, why are these fools buying these properties? The market's crashed. It will never recover. And yet when you live long enough, which unfortunately I have to say, I've done now like I've been around a while, I've seen a few cycles.   Dolf de Roos 00:11:59  No, I'm serious though, Keith, because when you experience your first downturn, you think it's the end of the world. But when you've been through three and you've seen that despite all the bad press and saying it's doomsday to never recover, it not only recovers, but it actually far exceeds where it was before it crashed last time, then you know that the time to take action is when everyone else is panicking. You have to be countercyclical when everyone else is jumping on the bandwagon and paying too much for properties. That's when you should get on a plane and read some good books on a beach somewhere, preferably in a foreign location. Why a foreign location and being disloyal to the home country? Note just explore something. Expand your mind. And you know, I know I'm waving around a bit from topic to topic, but one of the great things about reading books on foreign beaches is that you get to see different ideas of real estate that you can bring back home. So when you bring back these ideas that can help correct the market, then you almost you don't wish for a crash, but you think when it happens, well, there's got to be some good aspect to this and you can actually find some stunning deals from people who are too scared to think it might recover well.   Keith Weinhold 00:13:05  So those places where you might find stunning deals are in some of those commercial real estate sectors that are suffering today. Tell us a bit more about some of those sectors in their health. We're talking about five plus in the department's office, hotel, hospitality, retail, warehouse, industrial. Let us know what's going on with some of those sectors.   Dolf de Roos 00:13:27  In a state of flux. And it's a very good question. Let's talk about hotels for a moment. When the pandemic set in, we were all told to do this thing called to be socially distant. We've almost blissfully forgotten that expression. But social distancing was the thing. So hotels fell out of favor because you're in a foyer with a concierge and a reception area and hundreds of other hotel guests checking in and checking out. So Airbnbs became very popular and the value of hotels plummeted. Many couldn't meet their mortgage obligations because their revenue from room sales did not cover their own loan commitments, so they were being sold off at ridiculously cheap prices. I know of one hotel in the Atlanta area, admittedly a very old hotel.   Dolf de Roos 00:14:09  It was converted into a storage facility. When you think about it, hotels are all compartmentalized and have good little cubicles for story. Yeah, and Airbnbs took off. And we all know people, and people wrote books about it and had courses on it. I know in Phoenix, one statistic in a 12 month period from July 22nd to July 23rd, the availability of Airbnb's went up by 23% and all would have been good and well if demand had kept on escalating. But as the pandemic sort of wound down and people realized they did need to be socially distant anymore. And what's more, when you went to an Airbnb, what you found is that there was a long laundry list of items you had to do, but the sheets through the washing machine no more than one bed at a time. Well, four beds worth of sheets is going to take you three hours and do this and do that. People thought hotels are much easier, so there was a massive swing by tenants of rooms back to hotels, and the value of hotels went back up.   Dolf de Roos 00:15:04  And in the meantime, the value of houses used as Airbnb's, it sort of peaked a bit and it's going down rapidly. How far it will go down? I'm not so sure. So my point is, with hotels in a very short period of time, like three years, the values plummeted and then they came back up again. Office space is suffering a bit of a longer cycle downturn. It's fair to say, I think, that offices are in a very dire straits. Something like $785 billion of mortgages secured against commercial office space that is coming up for renewal, and there's not enough revenue to cover them. There is a pair of hotels on Union Square in San Francisco, for instance, the park Renaissance and the Renaissance itself. They had $745 million of mortgage funding, and the operators of those hotels handed the keys back to the bank and said, we can't make this cash flow. There's a lot of commercial space that is being sold off a ridiculously cheap prices. So there are two ways of looking at this, Keith.   Dolf de Roos 00:16:02  One is if you happen to own office space right now, unless it's boutique space, I've got quite a bit of office space, but it's a very much a boutique classification, and they'll always be demand for boutique office space from unique operators like interior decorators and people like that. But for the general concrete and glass office towers, demand for that has plummeted. The values have gone down and I know of one building in Chicago. It's sold for 315 million. It's on the market at 60 and dropping, and there's not a buyer in sight. And you might say, well, it's got to be a bargain. But no. Here's the challenge. With commercial real estate. Unlike residential, residential is valued on the basis of comps. We all know that if you have a four bedroom, three bathroom home, certain age, certain size, certain condition in a certain suburb, then and if it's sold for, say, $480,000, then a similar sized and aged house up the road, down the street around the corner is going to sell for about the same amount.   Dolf de Roos 00:17:02  Whether it's tenanted or not, that doesn't even matter. But when it comes to commercial real estate, the value of a commercial property is literally a multiple of its rental income. Technically, is the rental income divided by the cap rate? Which cap rate is short for capitalization rate? It literally means the rate at which you capitalize the rental to arrive at the value. So if we can figure out a way of doubling the rental, then we've doubled the value. And by the same token, of course, if you lose the tenant and you have your rental, then you have the value. And that's why the value of so many of these commercial office buildings has plummeted, because there are no tenants for them.   Keith Weinhold 00:17:40  Yeah, well, there's a lot there. And back to the Airbnb thing. Yeah. About two years ago, there seemed to be this well well-documented Airbnb bust. And my gosh, I personally had awful Airbnb experiences recently, including checking into an Airbnb where it hadn't been turned over, it hadn't been cleaned yet, and that I can never unsee what I saw.   Keith Weinhold 00:18:00  Then I had to stay there. That was really rough. I think what you're getting at here is once you hit a bottom, that's where the opportunity is. So there are going to be some of those opportunities somewhere in the commercial real estate sector, commercial real estate syndicators, many of them imploded from high rates. So when we talk about finding the bottom link with these large apartment buildings, how many more apartment syndicator implosions do we expect from the higher mortgage rates?   Dolf de Roos 00:18:27  Many. I'm indifferent to it. I'm not saying I don't have sympathy for the people who own them, and I'm not gleeful for those who buy a bargain. But here's why I'm indifferent. I think it's fair to say that I've made most of my money in real estate by finding either vacant or semi vacant buildings, and that goes against the grain. Most people think they need to look for a building with a good tenant, because it's the tenant that pays the rent, and that's not incorrect. That's accurate. And then if you've got a building that you buy and say 8% return and your mortgage interest is 7%, hopefully that 1% margin covers your property taxes and your insurance and your maintenance.   Dolf de Roos 00:19:05  And then you just wait for time to do this thing where slowly, over time, the rents creep up and the property value creeps up. I don't have the luxury of waiting that long, and I never had the cash to buy properties like that, so I literally sought out semi vacant or even vacant buildings. Now, I didn't buy them because if I bought a vacant building, I still have to pay property tax and insurance. But what I would do before buying it is see if I can find a tenant, and I can give you a specific example. I came across a vacant building that was a funeral parlor, and most people don't like to think of what goes on in a funeral parlor. But they have these stainless steel trays where they put the product of their business on, and they insert these hollow stainless steel tubes and suck up the blood and replace it with formaldehyde and all kinds of things we don't want to think about.   Keith Weinhold 00:19:52  That's even worse than my Airbnb experience.   Dolf de Roos 00:19:55  No one knew what to do with it.   Dolf de Roos 00:19:57  So I found it. And it was being sold for a song because it was vacant. And what I did is I employed someone at the then going hourly rate of $8 an hour to phone every funeral director, going further and further from this place until she found someone who said, oh my gosh, I've always wanted to operate there. And I was just open and honest. And I said, well, there's a funeral parlour premise for sale. Go and check it out if you want to buy it, buy it. Why would I offer it to him, Keith, when I really wanted to buy it? Because the last thing I want is a tenant to be gracious. The fact that the only reason he's paying me rent is that I'd beat him to it. But I knew that in all probability, he didn't want to buy real estate. That's not his gig. And he said, no, I don't have the money or the inclination he had to look at. He said, listen, I love it.   Dolf de Roos 00:20:40  I want to operate there. What would it take? And I said, well, if you're willing to sign up a heads of agreement, an alloy, we're subject to me buying it. You will become the tenant, then I'll have a crack at buying it. And his response was, were not so fast, I need you. I'll only do it if you give me a long term lease. Well, that's exactly what I want. So I'd found a tenant by adding the tenant to this otherwise vacant building. The value of it doubled. And when I went to the bank to apply for a mortgage, they said, well, we're only going to give you 50%. Well, guess what? 50% of double the value was the purchase price. They lent me all but the last $10,000 to buy that property. So the magic sauce here is finding the tenant. Could anyone else have gone through at the time? This is before the internet, the Yellow pages and phoned every funeral director going for. Of course they could, but no one thought of doing it.   Dolf de Roos 00:21:33  And that comes to part of what you had in your title, that this is all about creative real estate. The thing I love about real estate is it's about the only investment vehicle where you can actually use your creativity. I mean, if you're a really creative person and you buy a portfolio of stock, IBM stock and Microsoft and biotech, what.   Keith Weinhold 00:21:53  Can you do to improve it?   Dolf de Roos 00:21:54  Can you deploy your creativity? How can you deploy what you've seen in your travels to make your stock portfolio worth more? Zero. Absolutely nothing. Not with stocks, not with bonds, not with futures. Options, certificates of deposit, Treasury bills, nothing. But with real estate, the sky's the limit, I love that.   Keith Weinhold 00:22:13  Well, you talked about getting into commercial real estate sectors with little or none of your own money. That's part of the creativity. A lot of our audience is interested in investing in residential property, a single family home. You might still be able to get one for 150 K now, 20 to 25% down payment on that 30 K plus.   Keith Weinhold 00:22:34  I mean, that's still pretty manageable for a lot of people, but many are somewhat intimidated by commercial real estate. I think one of the first things they think about is how do I come up with the money? So we talk about creativity in funding that down payment. Tell us more about some good strategies for doing that, and kind of overcoming that daunting feeling of higher commercial real estate prices.   Dolf de Roos 00:22:52  You're absolutely right. Most people think commercial real estate is more expensive, where you might be able to buy a home in a cheaper market, a cheaper price point at one 20,000, say the commercial property is going to be half a million, or if homes are $1 million and a fancy suburb and the commercial properties at 3 million. That's true, but not all properties are like that. My smallest commercial building was a little corner shop. It was a wet fish supply shop, so they sold fish but not cooked fish. And it was a horrible looking thing. But I paid all of $79,000 for it and it's been rented on a full commercial lease from the day I bought it, so it needn't be liked.   Dolf de Roos 00:23:31  In fact, we tend to only notice the big ones for the For Sale sign. You're in the downtown of some city and you see a big one of the big firms, CB Richard Ellis or Jones Lang LaSalle or something for lease or for sale sign, that's for sure. And you don't tend to notice the small ones. The trick in finding good value real estate. Be it commercial or residential, again, has to do with the fact that it's not an automated market like the stock market. You buy stocks through computers on a share market. Everyone pays the same price. But when it comes to real estate, the seller may choose to go through a real estate agency. It might be a national one, and then it's vetted by many agents. But we have a thing known as fizzbuzz or for sale by owner. And why would a seller choose to circumvent a real estate agent? Well, probably because he's hoping to save on the 6% commission. By the way, that's the highest in the world.   Dolf de Roos 00:24:21  And the rest of the orders? 2 or 1 and a half or 3%, it soon to be lowered in the States. But even so, they want to save on that commission and more sinisterly. Perhaps some of them think, why should I entrust my property, the sale of my property to some snooty, nosed 22 year old kid just out of school who doesn't even live in the suburb. I have lived here for 59 years or whatever, he says. And I know what it's worth. And in pricing it, he's either way too high or way too low. Now, if he's way too high, you and I aren't going to buy it because it's just way too high. We know that. But what if it's 100,000 below market value? It happens every day of the week, and if we stumble across one of those, then we might just make 100,000 that day. Not in terms of cash, not in terms of folding hard cash, but in terms of equity. And we could sell it the next day for a hundred thousand more.   Dolf de Roos 00:25:08  But we don't because we want to invest in it. And these things are real key. These happen. That's why I encourage people don't take the same route home from work every day. If you've finished work, get in your car, take a different route, keep your eyes peeled, look for visible signs of a sale by owner, or look for abandoned properties, ones where the grass is a bit high in this litter blown up against the fence and the windows are a bit grimy, and then do some research to find out who owns it.   Keith Weinhold 00:25:34  Sometimes the greater the crisis, the greater the opportunity. But often we talk about, say, if one has overcome the money in the down payment thing, you know, in effect, when we go ahead and get a loan, whatever sector we're investing in, the bank underwrites either us or the bank underwrites the property. But in a sense, us as the investor is we're sort of underwriting the tenant that's in there. Now, when we buy a residential building, you know, we can look at the tennis credit scores and their work history.   Keith Weinhold 00:26:00  You know, we know that the residential tenant is going to pay us to live there. We have a good sense of faith about that. But when it comes to commercial real estate investing, say, I want to buy a plaza with eight businesses in it. I think a lot of investors feel overwhelmed because they're like, oh my gosh, like, how do I study the validity of these eight businesses? And how do I know that they're going to be solvent and sustainable going forward? And do I need to understand all this, or can you speak to that and help break that down for us a bit? Basically the investor underwriting the tenant.   Dolf de Roos 00:26:31  That's all true. And yet there isn't that much to learn. Because if we take your imaginary shopping plaza with eight tenants. Yeah, I think we'd all agree that if one of those tenants was a Gloria Bean coffee and tea or whatever it's called, or Seattle's Best or Peet's Coffee, not to mention Starbucks, that's a global change, but one of those lesser brands.   Dolf de Roos 00:26:51  I think we would be pretty comfortable that they can pay the rent every month. And similarly, the bank underwriting that loan was like, well, a Peet's Coffee or Gloria, that they're a good tenant And, you know, just to name others at random rosters for less, that's a nationwide chain store. I think if we had them as a tenant, that would all go well. And you might get a couple of independents, but they would have a track record. They've leased those same premises for the previous eight years, and they moved there from other premises, which ended up being too small for them. That means they're expanding where they were for 12 years, things like that. Give a picture to any novice in this game to say, wow, they're probably going to be here for the long haul. And beyond that, what happens when you develop the skills to attract new tenants? You don't worry about that even because you know that when you lose a tenant, it's easy to get one lesson.   Dolf de Roos 00:27:42  I've got 101 ways of getting tenants for buildings, and I'm blown away that people don't deploy even one of them. And I'll give you an example from last week. I was with a client in the UK in Bournemouth, which is way in the south of the country, and we were looking at a commercial office building there and it had been vacant for 18 months. And I said to the agent what seems to be the trouble with getting a tenant? And he shrugged his shoulders and said, well, I don't know. It's been on the market for 18 months. And I said, has it ever occurred to you to put a sign outside the property? A big canvas sign hanging on the side of the building signs, and the grass verge saying, this building is for lease. Enquire within or go to this website. And he was stupefied by that thought. He said, what an amazingly good idea. You have to let people know. They think that they're going to go to their office because they're looking for office space.   Dolf de Roos 00:28:34  So now, would they be guaranteed to get a tenant within a week by putting a canvas sign on the building? Of course not. But I know we won't reduce the chances. And that's why if I can find a tenant before committing to buy the building, I'm pretty confident we'll get there. And I've got all these other techniques, Keith, of doing it like one that I really love is, let's say you've got a vacant warehouse and it's an ugly, horrible warehouse in a sea of similarly ugly and vacant warehouses. If you and I bought that, I would hesitate to suggest that we would have a tenant within a month. And here's how we'd do it. We would spend no more than $10,000, and we would go to the manager's office, because ultimately, the person who decides whether to lease our warehouse as opposed to another one, is not the CEO and the head office in New York or LA or wherever. It's not the cleaning lady or man who's going to sweep the floor. It's going to be the manager is going to manage it.   Dolf de Roos 00:29:28  So I get rid of the linoleum and I put in commercial grade carpet. I put in triple glazed or dual glazed windows. Keeps the noise out and the warmth in. I replace the fluorescent tubes with LED lights and replace the locks with electronic locks so he can never forget his keys. I put on an 80 inch LCD screen and tell him it's good for corporate training videos. We know he's never going to watch corporate training videos on it, but those TVs you can buy for $500 now, I put on a little coffee machine and make sure it's brewing when it looks, and have a fridge for end of week drinks, celebrations, and our unsuspecting manager, who's looked at seven ugly warehouses so far that day when he comes to our ugly warehouse and he opens that door to the manager's office subconsciously, or maybe consciously, he thinks, oh my gosh, if I lease this one, this is where I'm going to be packed for 40 hours a week for Lord knows how many years. He says I'll take it.   Dolf de Roos 00:30:17  And he hasn't even asked the rental. You might say that's bribery and corruption, but I think it's just offering a better product than the competition. No one else does this.   Keith Weinhold 00:30:27  Oh well. This is another brilliant example of using creativity in real estate investing. We're talking with the king of commercial real estate, Dolph Thomas More. We come back including some of his psychology and insights from the rich. This is general education. I'm your host, Keith Whitehall. Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine at Ridge Lending Group Nmls 42056. They provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation. Because they specialize in income properties, they help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire. With leverage, you can start your prequalification and chat with President Ridge personally. Start now while it's on your mind at Ridge Lending group.com. That's Ridge Lending group.com. And your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings.   Keith Weinhold 00:31:31  If your money isn't making 4%, you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk. Your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just $25. You keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back there. Decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor, to earn 8%. Hundreds of others are. Text. Family 266866. Learn more about Freedom Family Investments Liquidity Fund. On your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text family to 66866. What's up everyone? This is HGTV Star Kombucha. Listen to get Rich education with Keith Wine hold and don't quit your day dream. Welcome back to Get Syndication. You're listening to episode 513 of the show that's created more passive income for busy people just like you than nearly any show in the world.   Keith Weinhold 00:32:55  I'm your host, Keith Whitehall. We're at the king of commercial real estate, Dolph Durst. Just like he has a lot of creative, proven types of things that you can do to improve commercial real estate. He also has a lot of those ideas for residential because he's been around the game for so long. So tell us about some more of those creative ways to add value to residential real estate.   Dolf de Roos 00:33:17  Well, probably. Like most people who end up focusing on commercial real estate, I got started in residential and that's where I first deployed some of my creativity. And I noticed, for instance, that I'd have a rental property that had no garage and no carport. And when you think about it, a tenant's biggest asset because it's not their home, it tends to be their car. One could argue that because they waste money on expensive cars every two years, that's why they can't afford to buy a home. But we won't go there. So if it's their car, if there's no carport and no garage, that means their biggest asset is in the rain.   Dolf de Roos 00:33:49  The sleet, the sun, the shine, the hail, you name it. So by building a carport, we can protect their biggest asset and it's worth a lot more to them by any means. If you have a carport on a house, that house will rent for about $80 a month extra. An 80 a month times 12 is 960. Call it $1,000 extra, a rent in a year. And Keith, I can build a carport for $1,000 easily. It's simply for one in each corner and then a roof with a bit of a slope. Why the slope? Well, if it rains, the rain falls off. If you're really cheap, you can get away with three posts. It still stands, you know. But no. And I'm being silly, but we sometimes make them with two posts and cantilever them. They're a bit more expensive, but then there are no posts out front so I can build a carport for $1,000, and then I get $1,000 extra a year coming in. And when you think about it again, which other investment can you think of that once you've consummated the deal, once you own it, you can spend an extra thousand dollars and then get 100% return on that money.   Dolf de Roos 00:34:49  And as they say in the infomercials. But wait, it gets even better. Because think about it. Let's say we have that carport built, but we haven't paid for it yet. And so we've got our thousand dollars a year extra of rental coming in. We go back to the appraiser and say, we want a new appraisal With an extra $1,000 coming in, he's likely to appraise it at $10,000 more. With that increased appraisal of 10,000, we go back to the bank and say, Mr. Bank manager, remember I got a 70 or 80% more. I've got now got an appraisal for 10,000 more. Will you give me a modest 70% loan on that? Well, banks are in the game of lending money and making a profit. So they say yes. So you get 7000 from the bank. Let's use 1000 of that 7000 to pay for the carport. It's now paid for. That leaves us with $6,000 cash. And the question is, is it earned income? And the answer is no, it's not earned income.   Dolf de Roos 00:35:42  There's no income tax on it. Is that the sale of something? Nope. Didn't sell it. No sales tax, no capital gains. It's tax free money. And you might say but hang on, you've now borrowed $7,000 that you have to be interested. Even at a ridiculously high 10%, that would only cost 700 a year. But we're collecting an extra thousand a year. So when you build this carport, you have two choices. One is pay cash for it and get 100% return on your money. Or the second one is don't pay any money for it, but $6,000 of tax free money in your pocket and get $300 a year surplus cash flow index for inflation for the rest of your life. Like, why would you not do that?   Keith Weinhold 00:36:25  Well, and it's a terrific example of how to accidentally improve the property. And it's so interesting that you bring this up, Dolph, because just a few weeks ago here on the show, I talked about garage real estate. I mentioned how adding a carport can often be more cost effective for a landlord from an ROI standpoint, than constructing a garage.   Keith Weinhold 00:36:43  I also talked about the future with autonomous cars. If people are going to need garages as much as they will, but that's into the future, and that's another subject in itself. All for one really important thing. I know that probably even more important than the actual investing is getting people in the right mindset to do this in the first place. You've studied this in really unexpected psychology behind wealth creation. I think a lot of it is counterintuitive, but it kind of makes sense because if you come from a scarcity and conventional mindset and you just do mediocre stuff, you're only going to get a mediocre outcome. So why don't you talk to us more about breaking down that psychology that most Americans and most residents of everywhere in the world really struggle with?   Dolf de Roos 00:37:28  Well, my pleasure. I had been teaching real estate for about 15 years and I decided why? I don't know, but I decided to run a survey to find out how many of my students became a millionaire within 18 months. That was my expected time frame of reasonableness.   Keith Weinhold 00:37:43  Is that I was actually wealthy.   Dolf de Roos 00:37:45  Right? And I was pretty confident. But when the results came in, I was devastated because it was fewer than 4%. And in my mind, 4% wasn't even statistically significant. Meaning if you take a thousand people, a random 4% are going to become millionaires. One's going to marry into money, one's going to win the lottery, one's going to win at a casino, and the fourth one's going to fall over a paper bag and looks inside. And we just believe that there's a million bucks there. So I vowed to stop teaching until I'd cracked the nut, because my dilemma was, how is it that when you give people all the tools you think they need to become fabulously wealthy, they still don't do it right? And what I found is that it had nothing to do with my rate of speech or my accent. Not that I have one, of course, or the content of my information or the sequencing of it. It had everything to do with the subconscious mind of the student, the fear.   Dolf de Roos 00:38:38  And he has that stance. You're a young kid and you say, hey, mom or dad, I want a bicycle. And they say, well, what do you think, kiddo? That money grows on trees and I know where the parents coming from. Hey, money's not that easy to come by. Temper your expectations of what you'll get for your bet. But this kid is. Our money doesn't grow on trees. Meaning money's hard to come by. And how often have we been told money can't buy you happiness. And money is the root of all evil. And when I say that, someone always points out no, the full saying in the Bible is for the love of money is the root of all evil. There's a big difference. And I'll say, yes, there is a big difference. But to the subconscious mind, it's still here's money and evil in the same sentence, and it's unconsciously makes that association. And the religious even say that it is easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven.   Dolf de Roos 00:39:24  In other words, if you're rich, you're condemned to hell. And that's a nice, strong belief system to take on board, even subconsciously. And by the way, most people don't know what the eye of the needle is. The eye of the needle was the entrance to East Jerusalem and even camels. And I've been there. I've said the camel said to get down on their knees as a sign of respect before they could enter. So there's a reason behind all these things, but the subconscious mind takes aboard. Money can buy you happiness. Money's hard to come by if you work hard for it. You don't deserve that money's root of lever. You won't get to heaven. You condemned to hell. And how do we describe the rich kids? We say they are so rich. That filthy rich. They're so rich. That stinking rich we associate being rich with filth and stench. So that is why in the United States and every Western nation, when someone wins the lottery and we no longer win 10 or $20,000, it's 300 million or 800 million or 1.2 billion when people win the lottery within five years of winning, 80% of the winners are back to where they were before they won.   Dolf de Roos 00:40:25  Right? And why is that? I discovered that it's because subconsciously, even though they're happy they won it and they going to tell their boss they're going to quit and they're going to buy their parents a nice home and they're going to get a new car. But subconsciously they feel they don't deserve it because they haven't worked hard for it. They're not going to be happy. They're now evil people. They're not going to go to heaven, and they're filthy and they stink. And the only way to overcome that is to get rid of the source of the problem, which is the money. And you'll see it happen again and again and again. So what we do is we dissolve what's in the subconscious mind, all these things that we've been saying without realizing it over and over and over again and replace them with more empowering beliefs. And the great thing about the subconscious mind is, initially, you don't even have to believe the thing that you're going to say over and over again to replace those old ones, but it could be something as simple as money is good or a bit more sophisticated.   Dolf de Roos 00:41:18  My poverty helps no one, but my wealth can help a lot of people.   Keith Weinhold 00:41:22  The more you have, the more you can give.   Dolf de Roos 00:41:24  Exactly as the reverend says, I'm a magnet for money. And so when we get into this mode of thinking differently, then all of a sudden people find that the money starts flowing and we give people specific exercises to do. And it's you think by how is that going to make difference? But it does. And so what I found when I introduced these concepts into my real estate teaching, the success went from under 4% to over 80%. And if that's not evidence enough that this works, I don't know what is.   Keith Weinhold 00:41:56  Yes, it really takes changing that mindset to break down these old stereotypes and have the confidence to say and act upon things like financially free beats debt free. But if you raise to think that money is a scarce resource, you think that retiring debt is a good thing, or don't focus on getting your money to work for you. Focus on getting other people's money to work for you.   Keith Weinhold 00:42:17  A lot of people don't even know what that means. But yeah, it takes breaking down some of these simple things that we all began to learn when we were age five or something like that. Golf is we're winding down here. You operate globally. You play globally. That intimidates a lot of people. They don't really know how to do that. But it's giving you this wherewithal to say that real estate is the only profession that can truly be played globally. Tell us about that.   Dolf de Roos 00:42:44  Well, when you think about it, if you study to become, say, an attorney, you can't just up and leave the US and go to Germany or Peru or Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia to practice, you've got to study their local laws and set the bar exam. If you're a physician, you can't just go to another country and conduct frontal lobotomies on patients. You've got to study and hit the bar exam. I had a friend who was a dermatologist, a skin doctor from Austria. He moved to Australia after eight years of study to get his qualifications.   Dolf de Roos 00:43:13  They wouldn't accept them here to start all over again. And he said that's ridiculous. And he became a farmer and was very happy doing that. But when you think about it, not only our real estate investors welcomed all over the world, but they think that you're going to bring money with you. You don't have to, of course. In fact, if you're going to invest as a US citizen in another country, I would not recommend bringing U.S. dollars with you. I'd recommend borrowing locally, because if you bring U.S. dollars with you, then you're subject to exchange rate fluctuations. So just borrow locally and then you've got no risk from that at all. But despite the fact that the other countries, the host countries think that you're an investor, you're going to bring money. So they welcome you with open arms. I think it's the only profession where you are never discriminated against. Your welcomed. You're made to feel welcome. They want more of you. They encourage you to come with delegations of other investors.   Dolf de Roos 00:44:05  It's kind of good gig to be on.   Keith Weinhold 00:44:08  Make the World Yours. The UN recognizes 193 world nations. Get out and see them and invest outside your own home country if you have the ability to. Well, Duff, you've got this interesting combination of commercial real estate focus, a great grasp of the mindset and how to help people with the wealth mindset. And then thirdly, you also operate globally. So it's been really interesting to speak with you. You help people in so many ways with a lot of your teaching resources. So why don't you let our audience know how they can engage with that?   Dolf de Roos 00:44:41  We have a lot of programs that we run from time to time. I mentioned I saw a client in the UK. He was an example of someone we did a fly out for. I'd spend three days just with that one client to help him with his portfolio. But the thing I've got coming up is a live training and people can get a free seat to attend and learn more at my website called Dolf Live.   Dolf de Roos 00:45:03  So Dorfman and Dolf and then live Live.com golf Dolph Live.com. You can see what we've got coming up there. It's entirely free to attend. And then, you know, once that event's gone, I'm sure we'll post other things there, but that's the best way of staying informed with what I've got going. Part of my passion, Keith, is sharing it. You know, it's pretty boring doing it on your own. And one of the biggest thrills I get is when you get feedback by email or however, from someone who said, well, when I heard this or saw that or read this, I wasn't even sure if it would work and I certainly wasn't sure if it would work for me. But look at what I've done since then, and that gives you a feeling that you can't describe in words. That's pretty cool. You change someone's life and you don't even really know who they are, then that's kind of that's fun stuff.   Keith Weinhold 00:45:48  The ruse has been helpful to me in our audience today. The King of Commercial Real Estate, thanks so much for coming on to the show.   Dolf de Roos 00:45:55  Hey, thank you so much for the opportunity. I really enjoyed it.   Keith Weinhold 00:46:04  Check out Dolph Live.com. It looks like he's got a live event coming up this Thursday night, and if you missed that more afterward, like I was saying earlier, a ton of great episodes coming up here on the get Rich education podcast, just stacked. As always, you'll get lessons from me when I'm going to break down. Is any debt worth paying off? Which debts are which are not and why? That's going to help you know what to do with every debt for the rest of your life. And that's besides what I mentioned earlier, both new guests and very popular returning guests. I hope that you learned something today. I'll run it back next week when we meet again. Until then, I'm your host, Keith Weintraub. Don't quit your daydream.   Speaker 8 00:46:54  Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own.   Speaker 8 00:47:05  Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss the host is operating on behalf of get Rich education LLC exclusively.   Keith Weinhold 00:47:22  The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get Rich education.com.