Get Rich Education

Get our newsletter free here or text “GRE” to 66866. Are you curious about the direction of rents and property prices?  In this episode of Get Rich Education, host Keith Weinhold dives into the absolute 100% certainty of a housing crash and how mortgage rates affect home prices.  Keith is interviewed by Ken McElroy. He also shares the importance of real estate in reducing taxes and increasing income.  Keith discusses the attractive pricing and inflation in Ohio, and the benefits of investing in new build properties.  He even touches on the increasing gold purchases by central banks and the potential impact on personal finances.  Don't miss out on these valuable insights and learn about the prospects for a housing crash. Tune in now! Title [00:01:37] Advertisement for Freedom Family Investments An advertisement for Freedom Family Investments and the benefits of investing in real estate. Title [00:02:00] Introduction to Get Rich Education Keith White introduces the podcast episode and talks about the longevity and popularity of the show. Title [00:03:54] Real Estate Price Gains Since the Start of the Pandemic Keith White discusses the cumulative home price appreciation in different regions since February 2020. Title [00:12:33] Discussion on the attractiveness of real estate pricing and the impact on renters. Title [00:15:08] Keith's personal experience of starting with a fourplex and the concept of house hacking. Title [00:19:38] Exploring the house hack model as a solution to affordability issues and leveraging other people's money for real estate investment. Title [00:22:12] Investing Out of State The speaker discusses the benefits of investing in real estate out of state and the importance of choosing the right market and team. Title [00:24:58] Importance of Prioritizing Market and Team The speaker emphasizes the importance of prioritizing the market and team before considering the property in real estate investing. Title [00:27:19] Supply Crash vs Price Crash The speaker explains the significance of the housing supply crash that occurred in April 2020 and how it affects property prices and homelessness. Title [00:31:51] Inflation Measurement Challenges Discussion on the difficulty of accurately measuring inflation due to various factors such as personal preferences and hedonic adjustments. Title [00:34:05] Housing's Impact on Inflation and Interest Rates Exploration of the significant contribution of housing to the Consumer Price Index (CPI) and its implications for future interest rate changes. Title [00:35:38] Paradox of Rising Mortgage Rates and Home Prices Explanation of the counterintuitive relationship between rising mortgage rates and increasing home prices, with historical data supporting this trend. Title [00:42:28] Advantages of Investing in New Build Properties Discussion on why it makes more sense now to look at new build properties than in the recent past. Title [00:43:49] Feasibility of Building vs Buying in Different Markets Comparison of the cost per unit for acquiring existing properties versus building new ones in different markets. Title [00:46:28] Turnkey Rental Properties and Scarcity as an Investment Theme Exploration of the concept of turnkey rental properties and the importance of investing in scarce assets like real estate, gold, and bitcoin. Topic 1: Central banks buying gold [00:51:38] Discussion on how central banks are buying gold as a way to store value and hedge against the inflation and debasement of the US dollar. Topic 2: Increasing geopolitical uncertainty and gold [00:52:36] Exploration of how geopolitical events, such as trade agreements and conflicts, have led to increased uncertainty and a rise in the price of gold. Topic 3: Reasons why home prices won't crash [00:56:46] Explanation of several reasons why home prices are unlikely to crash, including a shortage of homes, strict lending guidelines, government intervention to prevent foreclosures, and the slowing of new home construction due to higher interest rates. Resources mentioned: Show Notes: www.GetRichEducation.com/456 Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Find cash-flowing Jacksonville property at: www.JWBrealestate.com/GRE Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866 Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  Top Properties & Providers: GREmarketplace.com Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Keith’s personal Instagram: @keithweinhold   Complete episode transcript:   Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Welcome to Get Rich Education. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, with a crucial update on the direction of rents and property prices. Then a discussion between Ken McElroy and I where I posit to his audience about why a housing crash is 100% certain and why what mortgage rates do to home prices is exactly the opposite of what everyone thinks. And more today on Get Rich Education. Taxes are your biggest expense. The best way to reduce your burden is real estate. Increase your income with amazing returns and reduce your taxable income with real estate write offs. As an employee with a high salary, you're devastated by taxes. Lighten your tax burden. With real estate incentives, you can offset your income from a W-2 job and from capital gains freedom. Family Investments is the experience partner you've been looking for. The Real Estate Insider Fund is that vehicle. This fund invests in real estate projects that make an impact, and you can join with as little as $50,000. Insiders get preferred returns of 10 to 12%. This means you get paid first.   Speaker 1 (00:01:08) - Insiders enjoy cash flow on a quarterly basis, and the tax benefits are life changing. Join the Freedom Family and become a real estate insider. Start on your path to financial freedom through passive income. Text Family to 66866. This is not a solicitation and is for accredited investors only. Please text family to 66866 for complete details.   Speaker 2 (00:01:37) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world.   Speaker UU (00:01:44) - This is Get rich education.   Speaker 1 (00:02:00) - Working from Hot Springs, Arkansas, to Palm Springs, California, and across 188 nations worldwide. You're listening to one of America's longest-running and most listened to shows on real estate. This is Get Rich Education. I'm your host and my name is Keith Weinhold. And with 456 weekly episodes, you probably know that by now. Hey, I'm really grateful that you're here. Carefully chosen buy and hold Real estate is not day trading. Rather it is decade trading. Yeah. I'm a decade trader. Perhaps you're one two. You just haven't thought of it that way before.   Speaker 1 (00:02:41) - When I was recently with Ken McElroy in person in his studio in Scottsdale, Arizona, we produced a terrific media interview and conversation together that I'm going to share with you later today. But first, you know, it's not just you're out of control. Trader Joe's grocery bill. The entire world seems to be losing its battle with inflation. U.S inflation is still double where the powers that be want it. The UK recently stunned markets will need jacked up interest rates a half point to the highest level in 15 years. The ECB, Australia, Canada, Switzerland and Norway. They have all announced recent rate hikes. But Turkey Turkey is raising rates and astounding. 6.5%. Yeah, you heard that right. 6.5% all in one fell swoop. That's how much interest rates are going up there. Yet many say that it's not enough for them to get on top of their wildly out of control inflation. Now, let's get into a few real estate numbers here before my fantastic chat with real estate influencer in Great Guy Ken McElroy.   Speaker 1 (00:03:54) - Now here's a great set of real estate numbers since inflation has hit real estate too. Okay, we'll talk about rents in a moment, but let's talk price first with credit to John Burns, Real Estate Consulting. Let's look at American real estate price gains since the start of the pandemic. Okay. So this is not annual. This is cumulative starting in February of 2020 up to today. Here we go. There is a national home price appreciation figure and then it's broken into ten regions. And I think this regional breakup is kind of quirky, and I'll tell you why in a moment. But nationally, since the start of the pandemic, national real estate is up 36%. But let's stop and think about what that means for a moment. Well, since that time, February 2020, which is when these figures are all tracked back to, has the real rate of inflation also been 36%? I'll just say that the answer is yes. Well, then real estate has no inflation adjusted gain in all that time.   Speaker 1 (00:05:03) - Well, here are the ten regions cumulative gain since that time. Okay. Going from lowest to highest, Northern California is up 27%. The Northeast up 29%. The northwest is up 32%. Southern California up 33% cumulatively since that time, about three and a half years here. The Midwest is also up 33%. The Southwest up 38%. Texas up 40%. The Southeast up 46%. North Florida up 50%. A lot of castle markets there in north Florida, too. And the top appreciating region, according to this stat set since February of 2020 with 56% cumulative home price appreciation is South Florida. Yeah, up 56%. And now some of those regions mentioned like in the West, they were actually up more than this a few months ago and they've given back a little bit of their gain. But that is a great stat set. The only thing that seems quirky about the methodology to me is that you've got Florida and California, each with two stat sets, yet the entire Northeast is lumped in together without, say, breaking out New England.   Speaker 1 (00:06:26) - But I don't know, There might be a reason for the odd amalgamations there. I might look into that. Maybe that's just some regional bias or some concern there. Since I am a Northeastern guy, I think that by now, any long time listener knows that I'm from Pennsylvania and have lived most of my life there. I'm in Pennsylvania every year and I like to avoid hot summers, so I spend my summertime and more time in Anchorage. AK So fantastic home price appreciation in the past three and a half years, partially demand driven. Partially inflation driven, you know, three plus years ago, a lot of people, but never me, a lot of people, including real estate influencers, they said that the pandemic would be awful for both real estate and stocks because people would lose their jobs and lose their homes and businesses would shut down. Oh, no. We talked here about agree with it or not, the government's safety net is on its way and it came with the PPE and the Cares Act and everything else.   Speaker 1 (00:07:29) - I mean, Biden won't let people lose their homes. That's what was going on back then. And then in late 2021, I stated Jerry's National Home Appreciation forecast that home prices would rise between 9 and 10% in 2022. They ended up rising 10.2%. And then you remember that late last year I forecast that there really wouldn't be much of any national home price movement this year. Okay, 0%. I am on record right here on the show saying that then and here we are near the year's midpoint. And I like how that forecast is looking. And it was interesting. Late last year, Realtor.com, they predicted 5.4% national home price appreciation for this year. Well, just last week they revised it down to a drop of 6/10 of 1%. Okay. So basically they've gone to 0% as well, much like I forecast late last year. But of course in our core investor areas of the inland in the south, home prices, they are rising just a little this year. What about rents? That's something you might care about more.   Speaker 1 (00:08:42) - CoreLogic They tell us that rents for both single family homes and apartments are up 4% year over year, and that's really unremarkable. That's just the historic long term norm. And it's really been interesting how the rent growth rate for single family homes and apartments has just been remarkably similar, like shadowing each other. But the real story is that rent growth has really decelerated because national rent growth, it peaked at about 14% a year and a half ago. And now among Single-family rental homes, what you'd expect in inflation is happening. High end property rents are up just 2% because they're the least affordable. And then the more affordable low end rents are up 6%. And like anatomy, there are so many ways to parse real estate. There are so many ways to dissect the frog here. So let's look at rental growth by region. And it's from that chart that I shared with you in last week's Don't Quit Your Daydream Letter. Rents are down 2% in the West. They are up 1%. In the South. They're up 5% in the Midwest and they're up 5% in the Northeast as well.   Speaker 1 (00:10:02) - And what's been persistently steadiest is the Midwest price growth in rent growth. I mean, they're in the Midwest. That is like as stable as the clover honey that's in your pantry right now. And also, did you know that honey is the only food that doesn't spoil? Did you know that? Yes. Yeah. It's also stable, so it doesn't need mixing either. Stable like Midwestern real estate. And that's the reason that's had that best ratio of high rents to a low purchase price, which is really that key metric that you care about as a real estate investor. Now, for example, let's take a look at this specific property in Exact Street address from Marketplace. I mean, this is a great example. This is 224 Baltimore Street in Middletown, Ohio. Middletown is between Cincinnati and Dayton. Okay. This duplex here has a monthly rent income of $1,400 total from both sides. The price is $139,900. And this duplex is substantially rehabbed. And the $1,400 rent that's broken down by $800 comes from the two bed one bath side and $600 from the one bed, one bath side.   Speaker 1 (00:11:26) - The duplex is 1680 eight square feet. It's in a classy neighborhood and the rental status is that both sides are already leased. Okay, So when you have an existing property like this, sometimes you have that as the advantage. It's leased and on a duplex when you have both sides leased, you know what questions I would want to know before I buy a duplex like this? What is the rent payment history of those tenants on each side of the duplex and where are they employed? I mean, one might have been paying the rent. But if they're employed at the malls, pop up, stand for 4th of July fireworks or something, Well, I would want to know that. Or if their employment is more stable than something like that. So this 140 duplex is something you could buy with a 25% down payment. So even with closing costs, you're in there for under 50 K. So yes, they're in America's seventh most populous state of Ohio and might take on a property like this. Is that this duplex that's for you? If you're more interested in cash flow than you are appreciation.   Speaker 1 (00:12:33) - I mean, my gosh does pricing like this almost make you feel like inflation missed Ohio? That's how it feels in hey, that's what attracts renters as well. And you can find their property in more like them, including an increasing proportion of new build property nationwide from Florida to Indiana to Texas to utah@marketplace.com. Coming up in this interview with Ken, where I was a guest on his show, you're going to hear me say some things that you might have heard me say before, but I sort of say them in a different way when someone else sees interviewing me and I talk about including why there is a 100% certainty of a housing crash in a few other surprising things. And then at the end I discuss some new things that I have not discussed previously, including what I personally champion and invest in myself outside of real estate. We don't run with the herd on the mainland, but you know, here in Jerry, we are not an island to ourselves either because the dust from the herd affects us. Our investing philosophy is on a profitable, I suppose, peninsula, if you will.   Speaker 1 (00:13:48) - That's why I definitely say things that you don't expect to hear in this interview. And you know what? If someone only says what you expected to hear, that would probably be a disappointment and a waste of your time and you wouldn't learn anything. A critical real estate conversation between Ken McElroy and I, straight ahead. I'm Keith Reinhold. You're listening to Get Rich Education. With real estate capital Jacksonville. Real estate has outperformed the stock market by 44% over the last 20 years. It's proven to be a more stable asset, especially during recessions. Their vertically integrated strategy has led to 79% more home price appreciation compared to the average Jacksonville investor since 2013. Genevieve is ready to help your money make money and to make it easy for everyday investors. Get started at GWB Real estate. Agree That's GWB Real estate. Agree. Jerry listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS 42056. They've provided our tribe with more loans than anyone. They're truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four plex.   Speaker 1 (00:15:08) - So start your prequalification and you can chat with President Charlie Ridge personally, though even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Group. This is Richard Duncan, publisher and Macro Watch. Listen to get rich education with cheap wine and don't quit your day drinks. Hey, everybody. I'm here with Keith Reinhold. Welcome back. Hey, it's so good to be here. It's interesting. I was last here in January of 2021. And remember, Ken, that's when we talked about how you can profit from inflation. Inflation was only 1.5% back then. So for all the viewers and listeners, had they watched that, they really were profited from that surge of inflation, we should go back and check that one out again, you know, because I remember that discussion was fabulous. And now now that's kind of the hot topic, the hot topic for sure. So Keith has a great company. It's called Get Rich Education. Before we go down that road, let's talk about how you started, because most people, you know, they struggle with just getting started.   Speaker 1 (00:16:22) - And I know you started with a fourplex. Yes. And you know, this is something very actionable for you, the listener, the viewer there. You can start off like I did. I didn't have a lot of money when I started out. I think that's a common investor's story. So how could I do more with less? And, you know, I was in Anchorage, Alaska, at the time when I was about to buy my first fourplex building, and I didn't have the inclination to know how to remodel places or be a landlord or anything like that. And, you know, Ken, it's a quote we've all heard, but it bears repeating the circle of friends I had fallen in with Harkins, the Jim Rohn quote, You are the average of the five people that you spend the most time with. Take your five closest friends income level. Take their educational attainment level, take the way they dress your five closest friends. If you want to change yourself, change your five. In two of my five in Anchorage, what I call pretty aspirational guys and two of my friends, they had made their first ever property a fourplex building with just a 3.5% down payment.   Speaker 1 (00:17:25) - So I learned how to do this from them. And you can still do this today. All you have to do is live in one of the units at least 12 months and just have a minimum credit score of 580. You can do that with a single family home, duplex, triplex or fourplex. That's how you can start with a bang and a small down payment. Yeah, we call that house hacking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We talk a lot about this and I don't think people really realize, you know, and if you move into one side of a duplex and you buy a duplex with with this low money down and the lower credit score, you're basically you might not have a lot of cash flow if you live on the other side. But what you are is you're eliminating that huge expense that might have been for rent or something else, right? That's right, 100%. You know, everybody has their wacky landlord story. So I bought my first property living in one unit of the fourplex, renting out the other three.   Speaker 1 (00:18:16) - And like a duplex, like you said, where you might live. Did you tell me you were the owner? I because that's always thing. Yeah. You know, after a while after I got the new tenants in there, actually after I had moved offsite to another place, I didn't really want to admit I'm the owner. They ask all kinds of crazy things, but, you know, everything didn't go perfectly. For example, you know, shortly after I moved in, it was time for a tenant to pay the rent. It was the first that was due. They said they pay it the fifth. I was like, Oh, yeah, sure. Okay, whatever. Well, of course they didn't. I had to replace them. And you know how I qualified my next tenant in that vacant unit? What the qualifications were. Three females applied. They were attractive. So I let him move into the unit next to me based primarily on the fact that they were attractive. Well, that didn't work out very well.   Speaker 1 (00:19:00) - They had parties and they did not invite their landlord to the party. So everyone's got their wacky landlord story that's mine, but that's how you can start big. It is a good way to do it. And I think I don't think a lot of people realize that they can do that. So a lot of people I know are struggling with these affordability issues. So, you know, we've seen since our last podcast, you and I did, we've seen massive inflation, massive rent growth, obviously massive interest rate growth, which has driven people's mortgages up and doubling people, the mortgage payments up, plus we have all the inflationary components that I just mentioned. This is the best time to look at that house hack model because, you know, why wouldn't you grow.   Speaker 3 (00:19:38) - With inflation if you can do it with a with a two unit or four unit? Right now, there are some restrictions for for units and underwriters there something where if you go over that, it's a different kind of loan.   Speaker 1 (00:19:50) - That's right.   Speaker 1 (00:19:51) - Four units is the most you can do with that FHA loan in 3.5% down. So it's single family home, duplex, triplex or fourplex. And if you have VA Veterans Administration benefits, you can use that same plan with zero down. Believe it or not. It's a great way to start with the bank. Yeah.   Speaker 3 (00:20:07) - So you guys really need to look into this. If you could replace your living expenses large of the largest one, which is obviously typically rent and utilities and all that, then why wouldn't you?   Speaker 1 (00:20:20) - Yeah. And you know, here's the thing. Here's the takeaway. And I didn't understand this until I had owned that first fourplex for a couple of years. I think we've all learned we've all been influenced by the mantra that you don't want to invest with your money. You can build wealth profoundly by ethically employing other people's money. We're talking about doing it ethically. Providing people with housing that's clean, safe, affordable and functional. With that fourplex like I just described, I was using other people's money three ways at the same time.   Speaker 1 (00:20:50) - And you can do it too, because I use the bank's money for the loan and leverage. I use the tenant's money for the income that you were just talking about to offset all the building expenses and the mortgage payments. And then thirdly, I was using the government's money for very generous tax incentives, use other people's money three ways at the same time with the loan for income property, that's really going to accelerate your wealth building.   Speaker 3 (00:21:15) - That's right. That's right. And can you with that also do it with the down payment? That might be a fourth way.   Speaker 1 (00:21:21) - There are creative ways. For example, I know with FHA, sometimes you can get a gift. So that's a very astute question.   Speaker 3 (00:21:27) - Yeah. So that's another thing that a lot of people don't think about is, you know, I know with the FHA program, they're going to be looking at you. But there are there are ways to get gifts.   Speaker 1 (00:21:38) - That's right. And really use other people's money for the entire thing with keep using other people's money all that you can.   Speaker 3 (00:21:45) - The point is, guys, all can be OPM or other people's money. And that is the point. And so if you can't look into that, then it's now just an excuse. So let's talk about like you've done a very successful job of going out of state, out of the network and, and buying real estate. How have you done that? Because a lot of people are freaking out around, you know, how do I do I stay local? Do I go out of state? There's a lot of things to consider.   Speaker 1 (00:22:12) - I don't invest in my own local market. In fact, can I sell my last local meaning local to Anchorage, Alaska? I sold my last local apartment building last year. It's the first time in 20 years since I bought that first fourplex building. I don't own any local properties. I do all my investing out of state in investor advantage markets in the Midwest and South. And I know to some people it's scary to go out of state for the first time. You know, for some reason with stocks, people feel quite comfortable with, you know, buying stock for a company.   Speaker 1 (00:22:41) - They don't even know where that company's headquartered. But with real estate and something called turnkey real estate investing, that's one way to go across state lines. But really, here's my mindset in getting comfortable without estate investing, this is how I think of it. Can The property is only the fourth most important thing in real estate investing, and if you're thinking about investing, you often start by thinking about, okay, what would my next property be? It's important. But there are three things more important. Number one is you. What do you want real estate to do for you? This is what I like to share with people. Can Secondly is what market are you in? Thirdly, what's the team of professionals, especially your property manager, that you choose to surround yourself with? And then fourthly and only fourthly is the property. So let's go through that. It starts with you. What do you want real estate to do for you? Or are you looking for cash flow, which is common, or appreciation or tax advantages or a lifestyle benefit? Like maybe you want to live in it yourself.   Speaker 1 (00:23:37) - Once you've got that figured out what you want real estate to do for you, the market is the next most important thing. There is more risk with being in a little ho dunk market of 6000 people where half the employment is tied to the zinc mine than you think. So I like to be in larger metros have a diversification of economic sectors, something that you really excel in. Can So the market's at second thing because you need to have a place that's going to be filled with tenants. And when you buy your property, you need to have a reasonable expectation that 18 months down the road you're going to have another tenant that's going to be able to come in and fill that property. And then the third most important thing is the manager, your team. I mean, a bad property manager would drive a good property into the ground because you want this to be relatively passive. And fourthly and only fourthly is that property. And you know what happens. Can I see this happen? So often people get a 100% backwards.   Speaker 1 (00:24:30) - They go for three, two, one. First, they get all excited about a property and buy it because it has pretty blue shutters. Then they try to figure out if there's a good manager in the market because they don't like to get texts from tenants. And then secondly, they try to figure out the market that they bought in and it's too late. And then they go back to number one, which you're just so far out of line. And this is why a lot of people say that real estate doesn't work. So, again, the property is only the fourth most important thing. It starts with you market and team first. Yeah, I.   Speaker 3 (00:24:58) - Find that key. They do go for three, two, one all the time. Right? It drives me nuts because, you know, as you know and most professionals go one, two, three, four. And I think what happens is if when they get to one, they're they're figuring it out. You know, they need you to start there because it certainly clears up the vision, right?   Speaker 1 (00:25:18) - Yeah, 100%.   Speaker 1 (00:25:19) - And, you know, you intrinsically know this, but you just haven't thought it through before. Like, for example, you already know that the market is more important than the property. A giant mansion in a swamp outside Charleston, West Virginia, is not worth much, but yet a tiny 400 square foot efficiency apartment in the Tribeca neighborhood of Manhattan. Can be worth an awful lot. It's just reinforces the fact that the market's more important than the property and a lot of people get it wrong and always.   Speaker 3 (00:25:46) - Has been and always will be because you can you can screw up a purchase in a market that's going like this and you'll still look like a star.   Speaker 1 (00:25:55) - Yeah. And this will be true a decade and maybe even a century know. Yeah.   Speaker 3 (00:25:59) - So that's why the market is so important. So let's talk about the most controversial thing here, which is why there is 100% certainty, 100% of a housing crash. This is a I heard you talk about this and we talked a little bit about it for the podcast.   Speaker 3 (00:26:16) - I said, let's just wait, wait, wait, Let's talk about it on the podcast.   Speaker 1 (00:26:20) - There is a 100% certainty of a housing crash. And one might be wondering, first of all, how could you say that no one has complete clairvoyance to know the future? And the reason there is a 100% certainty of a housing crash in this era is because it already occurred. It happened in April of 2020, More than three years ago. It was a housing supply crash, not a price crash. In fact, the fact that we have had a supply crash really hedges against any sort of price crash. So using Freddie Mac data and I shared the chart with you before I came over to this video here so that you could see the backup. There are so many ways to go ahead and measure the available supply of homes, but about 1.5 million is what you'll see, Fred. The Federal Reserve economic data, about 1.5 million has historically been the amount of available homes going back to 2016. It began to fall after that with what happened in the health crisis.   Speaker 1 (00:27:19) - It plummeted in April of 2020 to 600,000 units and it still hasn't rebounded and it's continued to fall. So it's a 60% supply crash, 1.5 million down to less than 600,000 now. And that's what hedges against a price crash. That's why prices are continuing to stay buoyant at whatever demand level. The supply is really low, and that helps keep a bid on property. And really, I'd like to share with you the profundity of the fact that we've had a supply crash, not a price crash. I mean, think about this. We're the most powerful nation in the world, by so many measures, were the most powerful nation as far as political positioning and our military and our currency and our brand, the most powerful nation in the world. And we have trouble housing our own people. I mean, we're talking about food, shelter, safety, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, base level stuff here. So it's actually a bigger deal then a price crash. If you think about it, you may very well see more more homeless people in your in your hometown, for example.   Speaker 1 (00:28:25) - So the crash already occurred. A supply crash, not a price crash. Yeah. Yeah.   Speaker 3 (00:28:29) - It's important distinction, I think. I think people really need back up from this a little bit and understand where things are headed. You know, we have affordability problems. We definitely have homelessness issues creeping up. And so what really, really challenged everybody were these federal funds, increases in interest rates that went up. So all of a sudden, you know, we've also had the largest delta between rents and the the average mortgage price. So you got mortgages here. So rents and mortgages were kind of trending along at a pretty, you know, pretty equal amount. But now because of the whole prices that went up and the interest rates went up, there's a big, big gap between rents, even though rents have gone up. So that's also keeping people in their houses because they've got the 6%, let's say five, 6% interest rates, but they bought them at three. So they have this trapped equity, right? So so if you own a home that's 500 grand and you you have 3% on it, you're not going to move.   Speaker 1 (00:29:39) - Right? No, it's the mortgage interest rate lock in. Yeah, And that's a really astute point, Ken, because this plays in to the national dearth of supply on Iraq, 1.5 million available units down to 600,000. I talked to just lay people in everyday homeowners that have become landlords because they say, I don't want to sell my home. And it's 3.25% interest rate. So when I move out of it, I just want to hold on to that loan and rent it out. In the United States, you can't move your mortgage along with your property like that. So it's that interest rate lock in effect, that property, rather than coming up for sale, which would increase supply, doesn't it stays put. And almost two thirds of mortgage borrowers in the United States have a mortgage rate of 4% or.   Speaker 3 (00:30:24) - Less, a staggering number. It is. So I always tell people, Keith, you know, when I was growing up, cash was an asset, right? That was a liability. But now it's the opposite.   Speaker 3 (00:30:35) - Cash is now a liability because inflation. If you're if you have it in the bank is running faster and harder than what you're getting in interest. And now that debt at 3%, let's say, is an asset, you would actually be selling the property and you'll be getting rid of that asset. You can't borrow at 3% today because that is OPM or other people's money like we talked about.   Speaker 1 (00:31:00) - Right, Right. And if I borrow from a bank, say I'm a borrower and I want to take a loan from you. Well, of course, if I can do that at an interest rate, that's less than the rate of inflation. I want to do that because it's profitable. And how the mechanics of that work actually is when I repay Ken the bank in this case, every month that dollar debases on him faster than his interest can accrue on me. That's profitable for you if you can find that it's getting a little harder to find. But you can in some situations, still get interest rates lower than inflation.   Speaker 1 (00:31:33) - And inflation is such a fluffy number. We know that the CPI is manipulated with substitution and weighting and things, but if you can borrow at less than real inflation, that's exactly the transaction you're profiting from.   Speaker 3 (00:31:43) - What do you think real inflation is? Because I, I'm all over the Internet trying to figure this out, you know, and I go to all the shadow stats and all the things.   Speaker 1 (00:31:51) - Yeah, that's good that you're in shadow stats. There isn't really a good accurate way to measure inflation. I mean Ken and I a for next door neighbors were going to pay different rates of inflation. Say one of us is a vegetarian and the other eats beat then inflation in the price of steak affects one of us, but not the other. So if he commutes more than I do, gasoline prices affect him more than me. It's very difficult to pin down what the real rate of inflation is. There are hedonic reasons as well. Hedonic means pleasure seeking. So, for example, if home values go up 10% in a year, but now it's more common for homes to have quartz countertops in them a year later and they didn't have that in the homes of yesteryear.   Speaker 1 (00:32:33) - How do you adjust inflation for that? Because you're getting a better standard of living with quartz countertops. So this is why can and anyone has such a hard time pinning it down to what's the real inflation number. It's really nebulous.   Speaker 3 (00:32:45) - And I do know it's more.   Speaker 1 (00:32:48) - We do know it's more than what the CPI is reporting. How much more? No.   Speaker 3 (00:32:52) - One. I know it's true. It's all over the map. But I got to tell you, man, things are creeping up. You know, we were you know, my wife and I were you know, we just go to dinner and it's 100 bucks now. I mean, there's all these things that are there a lot more. But one thing is for sure, guys, if you can have an interest rate less than inflation, you're beating the market. That's the important thing to understand. And that's why, you know, go go the way back to Rich dad, poor dad with Kiyosaki. He was way ahead of his time when he said cash is trash.   Speaker 3 (00:33:27) - And, you know, savers are losers. And he doesn't mean that you are a loser. What he means is savers are losing money as compared with inflation. Back then, it was 2%. So now it's obviously more. Right?   Speaker 1 (00:33:41) - Yeah. And you know, really with inflation, I think the word is noticeable. No one talked about it when it was about 2% these past few years when it was right around the Fed target. It isn't until it became noticeable that it really became a thing. And you know, what do they say? What's Walmart greater say? They no longer say hello at the door. Instead, they just apologized for what's about to happen to you in there. It's noticeable.   Speaker 3 (00:34:05) - I noticed I was digging into the CPI or the Consumer Price Index recently for a video I was doing and I saw that housing was 44% of that number.   Speaker 1 (00:34:14) - Yeah. Between rent and owners equivalent rent, those two measures contribute to the CPI.   Speaker 3 (00:34:19) - So that's a lot. So think about that because I know, you know, what does that mean To me? That means that the Fed is not done increasing rates because, you know, I guess now they're reporting it at five.   Speaker 3 (00:34:33) - But if 44% of that 5% is housing in theory, then it looks to me like they're going to they're going to clip away at more of these federal funds rates. Right. What do you think?   Speaker 1 (00:34:46) - That's right. A lot of people think the Fed pivot will come later this year. The Fed pivot means when they stop hiking, which is increasing rates and begin to lower rates. I've got something really almost pretty trippy, really on interest rates to share with your audience here, Ken, because I think this is a real paradox that's going to blow some people away. What is it? So we know that mortgage interest rates have been up so much lately. And you know what happens with rising mortgage rates, right? When mortgage rates rise, home prices. You thought I was going to say fall, didn't you know? When mortgage rates rise, expect home prices to rise. And you might say what? That turns my whole world upside down. I mean, wouldn't one know that when mortgage rates rise.   Speaker 1 (00:35:38) - Well, that to. Creases affordability so one would afford less in prices would need to come down. And you know, the lens I like to look through a lot of times. Can we talk about applying economics to real estate? It's what I call history over hunches. I think it's really easy to have a hunch that when mortgage rates rise, well, obviously prices would have to come down due to impeded affordability. So maybe you're still wondering, well, what kind of upside down world would that happen? It's the world that you've been living in these past two years. What happened in 2021 and 2022? Home prices rose at a torrid pace, about 20% in 2021 and the following year last year, another 10% way beyond historic norms. And what happened with interest rates during that same time, they got doubled. I mean, they climbed a cliff. So that actually usually happens that when rates rise, prices rise. In fact, in the history over hunches, vane Winston Churchill is the one that said, the further you look into the past, the further you can see into the future.   Speaker 1 (00:36:44) - So let's open this up and look at the past, talk about why this happens, and then think about some lessons that you can learn from it. So in about the last 30 years, since 1994, mortgage rates have increased substantially nine times. That's defined as a mortgage rate increase of 1% or more. And during those nine times that mortgage rates rose, home prices rose seven of those nine times. This typically happens. And, you know, when I share this with real estate, people can a lot of them are blown away. They don't understand how they really don't even believe it. And I shared the data with you right before I came down here. You have the studio and maybe you can even put that chart up there to show people that I.   Speaker 3 (00:37:25) - Will do that.   Speaker 1 (00:37:25) - Jerry Yeah, but you know what? When I talk with doctors of economics, like the ones that I interview on my show, some of them aren't aware of it, but they all say, Oh yeah, I can believe it.   Speaker 1 (00:37:33) - I can understand how that would happen. All right. So what's going on here? Why does this happen? Why wouldn't mortgage rates rise? Would home prices rise? And, you know, there are for a couple of reasons. You know, can you and Donnell talk so eloquently about lag effects in the economy? Yeah, So that's one reason. But this can't completely be explained by lag effects because we have to think about what makes a person buy a home. Okay. We'll come back to that in a moment. But let's think about what happens when rates rise. Okay. Generally, the Fed is saying that the economy's hot, people are employed right now. There are some high profile tech layoffs for sure, but there are still more open job positions than there even are people to fill them. And this makes inflationary pressures heat up. So that's why they raise rates. When everyone has a job and you have an option if you get laid off to go to a second job and employers are competing for employees, what happens? You feel pretty secure in your job and what do you do when you feel secure in your job? You're likely to buy a home.   Speaker 1 (00:38:37) - So your situation, your income, your job security is an even more important factor than what mortgage rates are. So this is why, completely counter-intuitively and paradoxically, when mortgage rates rise, expect home prices to rise as well. And in fact, can. The only two times in the last nine that rates rose, that prices didn't rise as well. You know, they were they were 2007 and 2008 when there are really wacky aberrations going on in the market leading up to the global financial crisis. So, again, when rates rise, prices typically do two completely opposite of what most think.   Speaker 3 (00:39:12) - Yeah. And don't forget that part of the reason rates rise is because of the scarcity. So when you go from 1.4 million to 600,000, yeah, you have less just basic demand and supply. Less supply.   Speaker 1 (00:39:27) - That's right. And I think importantly, one needs to remember that there's less supply of both homes to buy and homes to rent. And even when one does want to buy and they continue to get shut out of the market with higher rates and higher prices than that obviously puts more people back in the renter pool, which is pretty good for guys like you.   Speaker 1 (00:39:45) - And I can know a lot of income priced right?   Speaker 3 (00:39:47) - That's why I did that video Renter Nation because it's not good by the way this you know housing is supposed to be balanced. So as somebody who owns a lot of rentals, we lose people. We lose people to single family home buying. That is the way it's supposed to be. Right? And then there are some people that when they're when they're done with the single family side, they want to come to rentals for convenience, for flexibility, for all kinds of things. So it's a natural stop. And so when one's out of whack or the other is out of whack, it's not necessarily good.   Speaker 1 (00:40:21) - No, it's not good. I mean, that impedes the upward mobility in really part of the American dream. Of course, you never want to lose a tenant from one of your apartments, but at least you can say, hey, congratulations, you moved up a rung or whatever. So this is the cost of any entry level. Housing is really high.   Speaker 1 (00:40:40) - In fact, when you parse the amount of available homes by the entry level type of, say, single family homes and duplexes, which tend to be the ones that make the best rentals, yeah, they're even more scarce.   Speaker 3 (00:40:51) - It's it's gotten worse. You know, I don't know that as a builder as you know, we built we can build entry level you know the.   Speaker 1 (00:41:00) - Most can't make it feasible.   Speaker 3 (00:41:01) - Cost the cost to build a house today is expensive.   Speaker 1 (00:41:05) - Yeah it really is. And you know, if you are looking to be a real estate investor in the 1 to 4 unit space, which is really an area where I specialize, if you can find a builder that builds entry level homes, I do know of a number of them in the Midwest and South, this could be a time for you to get a new build rental property more so than a renovated one. You know, that's really opposite of ten years ago. Ten years ago, we were still coming off the global financial crisis. Crazy.   Speaker 1 (00:41:32) - That was when the cost of property was even less than the replacement cost no one was going to build. Now you do have people building and, you know, can I know a number of these builders because mortgage rates are higher, that they're helping the investor, the individual investor down there. People like me, yeah, they're buying down the rates. So it's quite common for, oh, say on a $350,000 property for the builder to give you 2% of that 350 K purchase price. What is that, $7,000 at the closing table for you to buy down your mortgage rate? You also have turnkey newbuild companies that are giving 1 to 2 years of free property management. So new build typically costs more than renovated, which is why in the past a lot of investors like to buy a renovated property. But with the new builds and incentives like that and the fact that you're probably going to have lower insurance rates with new builds versus renovated, I think this really tilts toward you as the investors looking at property to your portfolio.   Speaker 1 (00:42:28) - It makes more sense now to look at new build than it has at any time in the recent past.   Speaker 3 (00:42:33) - Yeah, I know that like when we look at those big projects for for acquisition, you know, we're looking at what is it, what is the cost per unit for, let's say an acquisition in Phoenix versus building one? And in the last three years it was building all day long because the cost was 100,000 more per unit to buy crazy, crazy how existing product can get pushed up that high. And so all of a sudden that makes the building more affordable. Yeah, actually. And when you when you build the one next to the other, people are going to want the newer product all day long.   Speaker 1 (00:43:12) - Ken And maybe I can ask you a little something about being a builder. You know, I have learned from some builders that in a way some things are nice because they're not getting as much competition from resales on the market. We talked about why there aren't resales on the market. People want to hold on to their low mortgage rates so builders don't have the competition that way.   Speaker 1 (00:43:31) - But maybe you could let me know. Of course, it's going to vary by region and we've been talking very much nationally so far in the conversation here. But really, what's the lowest price point where it's still feasible as a builder to build where you have enough margin? Like what's the lowest price point on maybe a single family home? And then a larger. Yeah.   Speaker 3 (00:43:49) - So for me, it's mostly just apartments. So, you know, we'll go into a market. I'll give you a great example. We can buy in Austin, Texas, mid-nineties product, vaulted ceilings, nine foot ceilings, beautiful garages for $180,000 a door. Really nice. There's no way we can build that there for that price. Not even close. However, you take that exact project and you move it to Phoenix, it's 350 now. The rents are different, the expenses are different, the insurance is different, the property taxes are different. I understand the math. Is that the same? But, but on a per foot basis and a per unit basis, that's how different it is.   Speaker 3 (00:44:33) - So because of that, we're building in Arizona and buying in Texas. So now that can change. And also, you know that Austin could get really hot, those prices can go up and then we know that then it would change that dynamic. And so to your point, you always have to take a look at the difference between the deliverable. You know, do you buy The one thing I do like about buying is that it's immediate. You know, you could step into something immediate, make change immediate, whereas there's a bigger lag with the construction. So you do have some interest rate risk because you can't get a fixed rate loan on something that doesn't exist. It's land, it's air, and then it's built until it's in service, they call it. Then you can put fixed debt on it, but that's it. Up to that point, you're subject to a little bit of the whim of the fluctuations of the Fed and all the other things that that determine interest rates. So so you do have those things.   Speaker 3 (00:45:36) - We do love the new property. And so do our tenets. So when you build something new, people want to be there and they move out of that ten year or 15 year old product into something new. So there is that, plus you get a little bit more rent and, you know, all of those things. So there's positives and negatives for both.   Speaker 1 (00:45:55) - And so it's really, I'd say in the last ten years when you've seen the advent and proliferation of these build to rent companies, they're turnkey companies that build a finished product for you. That's the first thing that they do. And then the second thing they do is they place a tenant in it for you. And then thirdly, they hold it under management for you, the investor, if you so choose. Basically, it's those three things that define what a turnkey rental property is. So it's making more and more sense to do that with new build properties.   Speaker 3 (00:46:28) - Yeah, it certainly can and it's market by market. But you're right, you have to look at it each and every time.   Speaker 3 (00:46:34) - So before we wrap up, I'd like to talk about, you know, you always say invest in what's scarce, which I completely agree with. You know, And the other thing I like to say is invest the things that you can't print. So, you know, you could print dollars. You know, you can you can create a stock or ETF out of gold and all kinds of things, but you can't print gold, you can't print oil, you can't print trees. You can't print real estate. So let's talk about what's invest in what's scarce. So what do you mean by that?   Speaker 1 (00:47:05) - Oh, I love that. And we're so aligned on that. If I have any one investing theme, it comes down to one word scarcity. Yeah, I like to invest in what's scarce, not what's abundant and can be printed. You know, you don't even have to print anymore. It's just a few keystrokes and things like dollars and additional stock shares, abundant things, they can just be conjured into existence.   Speaker 1 (00:47:27) - So I avoid what's abundant like dollars in stocks and I focus on investing in what's scarce and is difficult to produce more of and take, yeah, real world resources to produce which is for me, it's real estate, gold and bitcoin that rounds out my scarcity theme. Why Real estate? It's a wealth builder really. Gold and bitcoin are not proven wealth builders. I think gold and bitcoin are maybe good places to move some capital once you've built it. Gold and bitcoin can be good stores of value gold really the classic store of value and bitcoin the real risk. But you know real world resources to produce. They're all scarce. Like we talked about the low supply of real estate. It has utility meaning usefulness. And yeah, when you buy a piece of real estate, a lot of people don't think about it this way, but break down all the commodities that you're buying when you buy a piece of real estate from drywall to gypsum, the copper wire to glass and all those sorts of things, it takes real world resources to produce that real estate.   Speaker 1 (00:48:27) - Real estate gives you advantages that gold and bitcoin don't like a reliable income stream and the ability to use leverage and terrific tax advantages. So that's why I'm a real estate guy. That scares gold, has a scarcity. What's really special about gold is it's one of the few things that's had enduring value for millennia, about 5000 years. You can say that about exceedingly few things. I guess you could make jokes about. It's intrinsic value. It's really not used that much industrially, but people have always flocked and gravitated toward that during times of uncertainty. And there's low supply inflation on gold that is very difficult to mine 2% more gold than it was the previous year. There were just challenges from exploration to mining and creating much more of this gold. And then thirdly, Bitcoin. You might not be that familiar with Bitcoin, but it takes real world resources, hardware, software and electricity to bring more Bitcoin into existence. There will never be more than 21 million bitcoins, so it has a fixed supply. You can't quite even say that about real estate and gold.   Speaker 1 (00:49:37) - A hard cap of fixed supply. More than 19 million bitcoin have already been mined. It's truly scarce and Bitcoin does have a role. It has some downfalls too, in case the government cracks down on it. I think that's the big risk with Bitcoin. But gold and dollars each have their downfall is difficult to transport gold across space due to its weight in its volume and security problems and then dollars. You can't transmit dollars across time due to inflation. Bitcoin is that one store of value. It's still volatile, it's still got some problems there, but it's the one store of value that you can transport across both space and time. You can't say that about dollars or gold. I'm a real estate guy. Real estate, you know, I think of it Ken is real estate is old and slow and analog and Bitcoin is young and fast and digital, so it is kind of a counterpoint. To the real estate with the Bitcoin. But yeah, if you need to build wealth and you don't have it yet, it's really difficult to invest in an asset class outside of real estate.   Speaker 1 (00:50:47) - Wealthy people's money either starts out in real estate or it ends up in real estate.   Speaker 3 (00:50:52) - Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I personally, I'm a big gold guy. I, I love being able to just throw a couple coins in my pocket and fly to wherever I want and pull them out and they're like, I got 4 or 5 grand.   Speaker 1 (00:51:04) - It's something tangible. You could actually look at it.   Speaker 3 (00:51:06) - It's nice. It's kind of nice to have that, you know, I don't particularly look at it as an investment, right? I look at it more as a hedge, an insurance policy, maybe a hedge against the dollar.   Speaker 1 (00:51:17) - Yeah, it's sort of like money insurance. I agree. And really a lot like an insurance policy. You hope you never have to use it, just like you hope you would never have to sell your goal. It's good money insurance. It's not a wealth builder. In my experience. It really just generally tracks inflation over time.   Speaker 3 (00:51:35) - Which is a good thing, by the way, especially now.   Speaker 3 (00:51:38) - I think what's interesting is have you had a chance to look at how much gold the central banks have been buying? I really have. So this is a really interesting point before we wrap up. So as you guys might know, central banks are in charge of printing money, basically. Well, other things, but one of those, that's one of them. So and they're kind of upset at the US dollar right now. Yeah. Because, you know, the world trades in US dollars and they're sitting on US dollars. And as we inflate and print US dollars, it looks like that a lot of them are buying gold, Right. And I would if, if they're they're trying to store their value in something that dollars so something other than dollars. I read an article the other day that said that we've been weaponizing the dollar against the rest of the world. Right.   Speaker 1 (00:52:28) - Right. So many foreign central banks, China, Russia and many more, they've really been loading up on gold these past few years.   Speaker 1 (00:52:36) - You see more and more international trade agreements, like you alluded to, cutting out the dollar and going through the yuan. You had the war in Ukraine, all these things increased geopolitical uncertainty. And that's why gold was on a tear and went over $2,000 recently.   Speaker 3 (00:52:49) - And then BRICs, BRICs is showing up. You know, that's the Brazil, Russia, India, China and South America. Right. And South Africa. Right. And I think there's a 30, 40 countries now. I've joined something like that.   Speaker 1 (00:53:04) - Yep. There's more and more. And they're not they're not pals of the United States.   Speaker 3 (00:53:07) - No, no. I don't know if you guys are watching this stuff, but it's something you have to watch. I mean, because your hard earned, your hard earned money is yours. And so you have to be a steward of it. You have to look at this stuff. It's not conspiracy theory stuff. You need to go out and Google this stuff and you'll see it's the dollar doomed. I don't know the answer, but I do know that you have to keep your eye on all this stuff.   Speaker 3 (00:53:30) - Right.   Speaker 1 (00:53:31) - Well, I'm glad you bring this up because one can speculate, one can make projections. But one of the few things that we do know and this is central to every investment that you make is that the dollar is going to continue to be debased. At what rate? We just don't know. But there are a few guarantees in life, but that's one thing that's virtually guaranteed. And really everything that we're talking about here hedges you against that. Again, dollars in stocks can easily be printed. Want to stay out of those sorts of checks?   Speaker 3 (00:53:59) - And if you could fix your rate while the government debases your dollar, you're winning.   Speaker 1 (00:54:05) - That's a winning formula for every million dollars in debt you have with just 5% inflation, you know the bank back 950 K after one year because wages and prices and everything, salaries are all higher. And with real estate, it's wow, your tenant pays all the interest for you while you're enjoying that debasement benefit. It's definitely counterintuitive. Get more debt. That's one of my favorite four letter words.   Speaker 3 (00:54:31) - Ha ha ha. Well, good. Keith, this has been awesome. So what's the best way people can reach you? I know I listen to your stuff, but I'm not sure everyone knows the.   Speaker 1 (00:54:40) - Get Rich Education podcast and get rich education YouTube channel. Real estate pays you five ways at the same time. Just regular buy and hold real estate. And it's actually okay that we didn't get into that because I made a free course with five videos, one on each of the five ways, just regular everyday buy and hold real estate pays and we're giving that away free right now at Get Rich education slash course. So it's a gift certificate and podcast and YouTube channel and again that free course real estate pays five ways which really reinforces why real estate is that generational wealth builder is a get rich education slash course. Awesome.   Speaker 3 (00:55:21) - All right, buddy, always great to see you.   Speaker 1 (00:55:23) - Love catching up, kids. Yeah. I hope that you enjoyed that vibrant conversation and a lot of original thoughts between Ken and I there.   Speaker 1 (00:55:36) - Ken is one of the more giving guys in the real estate industry. I like to hang around with the givers and reciprocate myself. One thing that I cannot take credit for as original is my part of the discussion where I was speaking about how the property is only the fourth most important thing in real estate investing. I learned at least some version of that from the real estate guys Robert Helms and Russell Gray. Now, when it comes to the prospect of a housing price crash, I think that a lot of the gloom and doom was that were completely wrong about that. Since 2020, you know, a lot of them have just dissipated or have gone away. Economic uncertainty that could not make home prices fall in any meaningful way like we've experienced the last three plus years and then last year a doubling of interest rates. Well, that couldn't really touch home prices either. Looking into the future, the rest of this year and into next year, I've got a good eight or so reasons here that home prices won't crash, although there could always be a black swan event, I suppose, from a pandemic to a direct hit by a meteor into the center of the United States.   Speaker 1 (00:56:46) - You are listening to someone that successfully invested through two recessions here. Home prices won't crash anytime soon because there aren't currently enough homes to house Americans. There are billions of dollars sitting on the sidelines right now just waiting for people to jump into the market. Lending guidelines have been strict for a decade plus, and that means those that own homes now can afford to make the payments. Home equity is also near record levels, so those that do have trouble making their payments, they wouldn't have to make a highly distressed fire sale. The government will do everything that they can to stop foreclosures, and on average, it takes 900 days to complete one. The population keeps increasing, although slowly US housing is still some of the most affordable in the world. And what higher interest rates do is that they also slow homebuilding. They slow that rate of new supply. This is all why housing prices cannot crash any time soon. We've got a fantastic show coming up here next week for you. If you're newer to this show or you just haven't seen my free real estate pays five Ways video course yet.   Speaker 1 (00:58:00) - Like I was telling Ken's audience about there, this is fundamental to you building the kind of life that you've always wanted for yourself. The course is truly free. I don't try to upsell you from that to some paid course. Perhaps the best thing that you can do for your financial future is to watch and understand all of the ways that you are paid. You can do that now at Get Rich Education slash course Happy independence Day. I'm Keith Winfield. Don't quit it.   Speaker 4 (00:58:35) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC exclusively.   Speaker 1 (00:59:03) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building get rich education. Com.    

Get our newsletter free here or text “GRE” to 66866. Storing your money at a bank entails more risk than you think. Your deposit is a bank’s liability. Banks must take risks with your money because they don’t charge you fees. Banks used to have a 10:1 reserve ratio. As of March 2020, all reserve requirements are now eliminated. Rather than storing lots of money at the bank, borrow lots of money from the bank. US households own $41T of owner-occupied property—$29T in equity, $12T in debt. The national LTV ratio is 30%, historically low. That’s 70% equity. Of the five ways real estate pays: one profit source is the market, two are from the tenant’s job, and two come from the government. Many Millennials plan to rent forever. 63% have nothing saved for a down payment. The interest-rate lock in effect keeps constraining the available supply of homes. This forces more homebuilders to build. Last week, NBC Nightly News covered the rise of build-to-rent communities. Resources mentioned: Show Notes: www.GetRichEducation.com/455 Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Find cash-flowing Jacksonville property at: www.JWBrealestate.com/GRE Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866 Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  Top Properties & Providers: GREmarketplace.com Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Keith’s personal Instagram: @keithweinhold   Complete episode transcript:   Welcome to GRE! I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. Do you have any idea what banks do with your money? How home equity is like a bank, hot Millennial rental trends, and the proliferation of Build To Rent real estate, today on Get Rich Education! ___________   Welcome to GRE! From Glens Falls, NY to Klamath Falls, OR and across 188 nations worldwide, the voice of real estate investing since 2014. You’re listening to Get Rich Education. I’m your host, Keith Weinhold.   You did not wake up to be mediocre today. So we don’t focus on long-term budgeting here.    Correlating financial betterment chiefly with reducing your expenses is just a race to the bottom. You and your peers would just be racing to the bottom.   We know that, instead, yes, arbitrage is created when you  borrow low and invest high. But the ultimate arbitrage - which is the gap or that spread, is when your quality of life vastly exceeds your cost of living.    That’s that gap that you & I pry open ever wider together right here, every week.    Savers lose wealth. Stock investors maintain wealth. REIs build wealth.   Savers lose wealth because inflation makes holding onto a dollar like a block of ice melting in your hand.    Retail stock investors only MAINTAIN wealth because their 9 to 10% long-term return is worn down to less than nothing with inflation, emotion, taxes, fees, and volatility.   And real estate investors BUILD real, durable wealth.     If you have a mentality of trading time for dollars, then you  have a certain way of looking at your life.    If you realize that your investing mission in your life is to build things that pay you to own them, then you have a different way of looking at life.    The resources that you need to build those things are what we cultivate here on this show.    You know something though, by the time that I bought my first rental property, I didn’t have all of that figured out yet.    It really wasn’t until I bought my second property. It was also a fourplex, just like the first one. This second one cost $530,000. And check out how I bought it.    I bought it with a 10% down payment, interest-only loan, and interest rate of 7⅝%.    Yep, I took accumulated equity from my first four-plex and used it as a down payment on the second four plex.   Now, that way, I essentially had zero money in the deal - which is an infinite return strategy - and both fourplexes cashflowed.   Now, the interest-only loan on my second fourplex there… that gives some people pause.   Why would I do that?   That kept my monthly payment amount down - since I could pay only interest - and didn’t have to pay principal. That turned a property with a small cash flow into a nice cash flow.   Yeah, some people don’t like interest-onlys because then the tenant isn’t paying down your principal for you.    I typically take interest-only loans because for every dollar that doesn’t go into your illiquid principal as equity, instead, it becomes a dollar of liquid cash flow that goes into your pocket.   In fact, changes are that the reason that you have fat equity in home right now is from market appreciation, not principal paydown.   In fact, why don’t I approach the classic GRE principle of “your return from home equity is always zero” from a new and novel angle here today.    Gosh, this could make you hundreds of thousands or millions over your investor career.   Imagine a bank. We’ll call it a red bank. This bank is offering you zero rate of return, it’s difficult for you to withdraw your money from it, and this red bank might not even let you withdraw your own money at all - it is at their discretion.    How motivated are you to hold your money at that bank? Well, you aren’t at all.    Well, I just described equity that’s locked inside properties… and that’s why… your properties make terrible banks.   Equity is the opposite of you being liquid.   Instead, the GRE Way is leverage and arbitrage, but it needs to be supported by cash flow.    So, we are not quite on an island here with our strategy, because we’re still connected with the mainstream finance world - but we’re, say, a peninsula then.    And, like a peninsula, maybe, real estate keeps you insulated - though not completely disconnected from that more volatile stock and bond shuffle that most people are on - which provides little to zero leverage or cash flow.    Do you know what that stock and bond shuffle is - that seesaw?   Let’s remind ourselves… that when money flees the stock market, it usually ends up in bonds. As demand for bonds goes UP, interest rates go DOWN. Then, as interest rates go down, investors go back to stocks in pursuit of yield, and everything reverses. It’s an ebb and flow of funds which often provides you with zero real return. That’s how that seesaw goes. So rather than get a part-time job, which is selling your time for dollars, get a few rental properties instead.    Whether you manage them yourself or you manage the manager - like I do, I manage managers… you’ve got the income stream of a part-time job with an asset that appreciates at the same time.   As time passes, the reason that you will feel satisfied is because you took strategic risk.   Now, to stick to the bank analogy theme here, a lot of people still don’t realize that when you take your money to the bank, you are a creditor of the bank, and the bank is now lending your money out.   So, just think about what you’re doing - well, you yourself probably aren’t doing so much of this - you’re probably a better than average investor since you’re listening here.   But think about those depositors that keep a lot of money at the bank.   Yes, we know you’re losing to inflation, but besides that, just think about what happens to your money this way.   What about a parking garage and your car? OK, when you park your car at a valet, the valet is supposed to turn around and park it in a garage.   The valet does not have the right to take your car and let an Uber driver go make money with it while you’re off having dinner.   And then maybe they’ll give you the same make & model back at the end of the night… and they stick YOU with the risk of having a problem with your car - or your money.    That’s what banks are doing with your money when you park it there. It’s like a valet letting an Uber driver use it and take risks with it without your knowledge.   What isn’t FDIC-insured is… at… risk.   Well, what’s the alternative to banks lending out the money that you deposited with them? Well, the alternative to the existing system is that banks, instead, could make money off of fees that they charge you.   How is it that you avoid paying fees to your bank right now, like you are? I mean, afterall, banks have capital expenses, technology expenses, and employee expenses.   If banks charge fees to you rather than profiting from the spread that they get on lending your money out, we could have a safer system.   But most people like the allure of fee-free banking, partly because that’s what they’re used to.   Banks used to have to hold onto a dollar for every $10 they had in deposits. That’s also known as a 10:1 fractional reserve ratio.    Well, the risks of parking your money at a bank went up in March of 2020. That’s when the Fed just COMPLETELY eliminated reserve ratios for banks.    Now, for every $10 they have in deposits, banks can hold zero dollars in reserve.    Instead of parking your money at a bank, you do the opposite. You borrow from the bank, pay them their 7% interest and invest it in “Real Estate Pays Five Ways” property that beats 7%. Right there’s… your arbitrage.   Now you’re using their money instead of them using your money - like the valet that you entrusted your car with that lent out your car to the Uber driver while you were at dinner.    So outside of inflation, why is it risky to keep your money parked AT a bank - rather than borrowing from them. Because, as has often happened this year, banks implode.     Why are they imploding?   Well, just a couple years ago, when banks lent on mortgages at 3%, they’re only collecting 3% for 30 years.    What happens to the BANK when interest rates go up? No one wants to buy their 3% debt. The depositor (that’s you, the customer) wants their money back - because they can go invest it for 5% elsewhere. That’s a problem for the bank.   And if the government does come in to give a bailout of your bank - we know by now that they’re more likely to do it if it’s a large bank, like Chase, Wells Fargo, or B of A.   Well, more gov’t bailouts of banks… means more money printing… which means more inflation, making our eventual problems even worse.   So rather than keeping too much money at the bank, BEAT the bank.   Now, earlier, I mentioned how having a glut of equity in your properties is like keeping your money in a rather illiquid bank.    That is a germane point - a pertinent discussion to have right now, because take a look at this. This is America’s equity position, right now.   This is for the latest quarter ended. The Federal Reserve Flow of Funds report tells us that    U.S. households owned $41 trillion in owner-occupied real estate. Alright, $41T is the value of that US residential property.   Of that $41T, how much do you think is in debt, and how much is in equity? I’m just doing some rounding here.   $12 trillion in debt and the remaining $29 trillion is in equity.   Therefore, the national loan-to-value "LTV" right now is about 30%. That is historically quite low.   Another way to say it is that America’s primary residences have a 70% equity position today.    Yes, 70% of the value of American homes is locked into that vehicle that’s famously unsafe, illiquid, and always has an ROI of zero.    Homeowners today have an average of $302,000 of equity in their homes.    Now, as inefficient as that might sound from an opportunity cost perspective from homeowners.   There is, at least, a little upside to your neighbors having a glut of equity even if you try to opportunistically hold a low equity position.   This equity provides a cushion to withstand potential price declines, but also prevents any future housing distress from turning into a foreclosure situation.    Those equity cushions around American neighborhoods help prevent the down… drain in prices that we saw from 2007 to 2009.   I’ve got more for you coming shortly, including, has the Build-To-Rent concept that we’ve discussed on this show for years & years finally gone mainstream now that NBC news is discussing it?   You’ll hear that audio clip and get my commentary on it.   But first, I want to ask you, is this the "Golden Age" of quality NEWSLETTERS or what?    News WEBSITES are increasingly riddled with: paywalls, logins, banner ads, and pop-ups about cookies, the hassle of 2FA. Instead, a quality newsletter is just automatically “there” in your inbox.    Our valuable Don’t Quit Your Daydream newsletter is full of real estate investing industry trends and forecasts, broader economic forces that are going to affect you in the future & more.    Get top investment property news in under 5 minutes.  You can sign up and get the letter free now at GetRichEducation.com/Letter.   In there, you get updates about what provider has inventory now - even exact physical addresses of properties.    In fact, I’ve featured two of my own rental properties in the newsletter as I broke down their financials. Again, sign up at GetRichEducation.com/Letter   I STILL write every single word of that letter myself. I don’t think that a lot of founders do that.   Upon signup, you’ll receive some lay of the land e-mails, and thereafter, I only send it about weekly. Not daily.   Alternatively, you can easily sign up for the letter by text. If you aren’t yet one of many subscribers expanding your means with my letter, you can simply text “GRE” to 66866 for our DQYD Letter. It is free.   Again, you can sign up by simply texting “GRE” to 66866. More next. I’m Keith Weinhold. You’re listening to Get Rich Education. _____________   Welcome back. You’re listening to Episode 455 of Get Rich Education. I’m your host, Keith Weinhold.   Five weeks ago on the show, you’ll remember that I reiterated why real estate does not pay 4 ways and does not pay 6 ways - it pays exactly five ways simultaneously.   Sometimes, amid uncertainty - and note that there’s ALWAYS - uncertainty.   It never abates. People wondered when the Fed would stop hiking rates at a meeting. Now they did. People wondered when inflation would get down to 4 - now it has.    But those that worry excessively will still point to something else that’s uncertain.   But in good times, bad times, and uncertain investing times, you might want to get more offensive. Other times, more defensive.   Real estate is both. Of the 5 ways you’re paid, appreciation and cash flow serve your offensive side.   At the same time, your return on Amortization, Tax Benefits, and Inflation-Profiting all serve your defensive side.   Now, let’s go and look at the sources - the headwaters - the genesis.    What are your 5 profit sources - for appreciation - it’s the market. It’s the vibrancy and diversity of the economic market that you bought in. That’s where your appreciation emanates from.   For the second way you’re paid, cash flow, it’s your tenant and your tenant’s job.   For the third way, your Return on Amortization - that ROA, that also comes from your tenant, since that pays your loan’s Principal & Interest.   The fourth way, tax benefits, that’s the gov’t.   And the fifth way, your inflation-profiting, that also comes from the gov’t.    Yes, that’s the source, the headwaters for each of the five ways you're paid and knowing that can help you be mindful about what to pay attention to in your investment real estate portfolio long-term.   Yes, this is just with carefully-bought buy & hold real estate. Unlike most investments, if the value of your property goes down, you still get paid 4 ways.    So to review the 5 Ways Real Estate Pays SOURCES - where your money actually originates, it’s:   Appreciation - from the market Cash flow - from the tenant ROA - tenant Tax Benefits - gov’t And Inflation-Profiting - also from the gov’t   Now, here at GRE, when we focus on your tenant and where your tenant comes from, you know, one word that comes up an awful lot is Millennials.   Why do we discuss Millennials so regularly? It’s not because we’re the first generation to embrace avocados or online dating over “in real life” dating or, it’s the first generation to be raised in a world of participation trophies. Ha!    It’s because, not only are Millennials the largest generation in American history, but they are in their prime household formation years.   Though there’s a bit of dissension among demographers, many agree that Millennials were born between 1981 and 1996. That makes them Age 27 to 42 - they are prime household formation years.    BTW, you probably know of the generation after that, Gen Z. They were born between 1997 and 2012, making Gen Z age 11 to 26.   But do you know about the generation after that? That is Generation Alpha. They were born between 2012 and today, making Generation Alpha age 0 to 11.    Well, the Millennial homeownership rate lags that of previous generations of people that were the same age. So this is why you have such a deep pool of people that’s driving demand for your rentals.   Millennials have the misfortune of being stung by back-to-back global crises.    When they were coming of age in 2008, many couldn’t get a job during the Global Financial Crisis. Then the pandemic disruption made getting their independence pretty bumpy.   In fact, fully 18% of Millennials say that they plan to rent forever. Forever! That’s up from 11% just five years ago.    Not just a few, but the MAJORITY of Millennial Renters have zero down payment for house savings. 63% of them have absolutely nothing saved for a house.    And in fact, another 14% have less than $5,000 saved - which is close to nothing. That is all according to a survey from Apartment List.    More Millennials plan to rent forever.    Now, I’ve done a fair bit of research on Generation Z  real estate trends - again they’re the age between 11 and 26. And there are a few more Gen Z homeowners than you might think already.    But the short story on Gen Z, just isn’t that compelling. To distill everything I’ve researched, most Gen Zers want to own a home but few can afford it. Well, no kidding. That’s not a very novel takeaway, but that’s the REAL story there.   If Millennials are your current renters, then Gen Z are your current and future renters.   Now, I’ve talked to you a good bit about the “interest rate lock-in” effect. So many homeowners have ultra-low mortgage rates that they don’t want to sell their home, and when they don’t put it on the market, that further constrains supply.   Well, Redfin recently brought some new color to the interest-rate lock-in effect. They’ve shared some really interesting material with us.   92% of mortgage borrowers have an interest rate under 6%.   80% of them have an interest rate below 5%.   62% of these people have an interest rate below 4%.   And a quarter have a rate below 3%.   New listings of homes for sale and the total number of listings have both dropped to their lowest level on record for this time of year… and that is fueling homebuyer competition in some markets and preventing home prices from falling.    In fact, Redfin tells us that the national ASKING price for homes is the same that it was one year ago.   Sale prices increased most in these 5 metro areas. Cincinnati leading the way at (9.2%). We’ve got cash-flowing Cincinnati property at GRE Marketplace. Miami (8%) not really a cash flow market there. Third-best is Milwaukee (8%), rounded out by Fort Lauderdale, FL (6%) and Virginia Beach, VA (5%).  They are the 5 metros with the highest appreciation. Current months of national housing supply is still just 2.6 months - scarce inventory. 6 months is a balance market.   Homes that sold were on the market for a median of 28 days. That is the shortest span since September. There’s a bit of a seasonal factor there though.   Now, when we talk about the paltry supply of homes since existing homeowners don’t want to lose their low rate, it’s forced more homebuilders to build - in order to make some inventory available.   It’s made a good opportunity for you to buy these homes that are built for renters from Day 1, and rent it to a tenant yourself.    Now, I know that your life is more interesting than watching the NBC Nightly News with Lester Holt and then dozing off to sleep at 9:30 PM (ha!), so in case you didn’t catch it, here it is on “Build-To-Rent” last week.   It really takes the perspective of the RENTER and why they want to pay your rent to stay in a Build-To-Rent home… longer than they do for an apartment. This is about 2 minutes long & I’ll be back to comment.   BTR on NBC News:  https://youtu.be/BXwTerRQWNo?t=954   Yes, that’s the popularity of build-to-rent homes. Something that we’ve been discussing here at GRE, for, gosh, maybe 8 years now.   Like they said there, rents are on the rise. But they’re not rising nearly as fast as they were 1 and 2 years ago. Rent growth has slowed for both SFHs and apartments.   I think that the assurance for prospective income property owners like you is that in your Build-To-Rent properties, you can have a reasonable expectation of high occupancy and low vacancy as long as you buy your SFRs in a decent market.   And see, more often than not, a builder is only going to build new, rental single-family homes if there are plentiful jobs nearby to support that.   So you can kind of crowdsource the due diligence that the builder did on what’s demographically and economically feasible if you choose to add these property types.   Despite the build-to-rent properties added, today, America only has half as many homes available as 2019.   Compared to just a year ago, there are 5% fewer available properties today.    But, we’ve got available Build-To-Rent and existing income property here at GRE Marketplace. Yes, just create one login, one time, and get access to all national providers at GRE Marketplace.com.   But say you want a little help, a little coaching. Say perhaps you haven’t bought property before, or you haven’t bought one in a while, or you haven’t bought property across state lines yet - since that’s where the best deals usually are - or you just want to lean on a coach to bounce ideas off of as you’re looking for your next investment property.   Well, in that case, you can rely on our free coaching service. That’s at GREmarketplace.com/Coach   Our coaches don't blow the whistle at you for missing a play. You'll never find them as grumpy as, say, New England Patriots' Coach Bill Belichick. They’re not that kind of coach. It’s not the kind of coach that will ask you to start your morning with an ice bath.   And if you're new to real estate, there's no such thing as a stupid question with GRE Investment Coaches. No penalty flags are thrown.   To find that property that builds your residual income and pays you five ways, you can choose which coach you want to have help you.     Coaching is a completely free service to you.   What they do is... Learn your goals Find you the best off-market deals nationwide Find the property provider with incentives. (One provider recently offered 4.75% interest rates, another free PM for one year.) Help write your offer if you would like that Submit earnest money Navigate the inspection Interpret your appraisal Check your management agreement And just ensure a smooth closing day for you Your Investment Coach can do more than this. If you prefer, they can do less than this.   GRE Marketplace is where the coaches source the properties. It is more like an organic farmers' market than a big box store. Property offerings change frequently.   Because there are limited slots available to talk with them through phone or Zoom, it helps if you've got your down payment and are ready to go.   Sheesh. If it were any easier, they'd even make your down payment for you.   Did I mention that it's completely free? To get started, choose your coach and book a time. Start at GREmarketplace.com/Coach   Until next week, I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. DQYD!

The wealth of families often dissipates to zero within a generation or two.  Learn about the Vanderbilt family’s downfall and how you can avoid these mistakes. Have an estate plan. I explain the difference between a will and a trust. I introduce you to my friend Michael Manthei.  A regular GRE listener, Michael and his wife bought 55 units within 4 years and acquired $85,000 of annual real estate income. He thinks about generational wealth as: income, taxes and inflation, giving, faith, service, preserving stories, character, physical health, and that your family is a treasure. Learn the difference between inheritance and generational wealth. Today, Michael runs the Elevate Investing Group. His upcoming event, Generational Wealth 2023, is August 18th-19th, 2023 in Lancaster, PA. Register here. I’ve never heard of an event like this. Multiple generations of one family will tell you how they did it. Resources mentioned: Show Notes: www.GetRichEducation.com/454 Michael’s transformational event: Generational Wealth 2023 Build a trust or will fast: TrustAndWill.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Find cash-flowing Jacksonville property at: www.JWBrealestate.com/GRE Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866 Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  Top Properties & Providers: GREmarketplace.com Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Keith’s personal Instagram: @keithweinhold   Complete episode transcript:   Keith Weinhold (00:00:00) - Welcome to G R E. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. How do you build generational wealth? How do you keep it and how do you pass it on so that it stays within your family for generations? Part of this is today's conversation with A G R E listener that's doing something that I've never heard of anyone else doing today on Get Rich Education.   Speaker 0 (00:00:22) - Taxes are your biggest expense. The best way to reduce your burden is real estate. Increase your income with amazing returns and reduce your taxable income with real estate write-offs. As an employee with a high salary, you are devastated by taxes. Lighten your tax burden. With real estate incentives. You can offset your income from a W2 job and from capital gains Freedom. Family Investments is the experience partner you've been looking for. The Real Estate Insider Fund is that vehicle, this fund investing real estate projects that make an impact. And you can join with as little as $50,000. Insiders get preferred returns of 10 to 12%. This means you get paid first. Insiders enjoy Castle on a quarterly basis and the tax benefits are life changing. Join the Freedom Family and become a real estate insider. Start on your path to financial freedom through passive income. Text family to 66866. This is not a solicitation and is for accredited investors only. Please text family to 66866 for complete details.   Speaker 3 (00:01:31) - You are listening to the show that is created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.   Speaker 0 (00:01:54) - Welcome to GRE from Weehawkin, New Jersey to Weed, California and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Wein Holden. This is Get Rich Education. Shortly we will hear from a GRE listener that's an engaged real estate investor and is having an unusually large impact on other people with generational wealth. Soil has profound effects on the type of agriculture that's possible and therefore soil has had profound effects on the kinds of societies that have been historically possible going back 12,000 years since the advent of agriculture. So productive and irritable soil is what made real estate valuable. A pattern of farms that are passed down through this same family for generations. Well, that's something that's possible in fertile regions, but not in regions where the soil is exhausted in a few years and has to be abandoned. And a new site found while the first site recovers its fertility.   Speaker 0 (00:02:55) - Whole societies had to move when the land in any given location cannot permanently sustain them. Therefore, cities couldn't even be built or contemplated. So then when you have bad soil, you can't have anything that lasts. And if you can't plant your family's principles, call them seeds in fertile soil, which is my metaphor for having moral and cultural standards, well then you can't build generational wealth either. You won't have anything that lasts very far beyond your one finite life. And as society advanced, we have more historic examples about families that built and have still capped their fortune today after several generations like the Rockefellers or families that have built and squandered their fortune like the Vanderbilts. And how that started is that really the Vanderbilts have been heralded as American royalty. The icons of the Gilded Age and that rich history all started with Cornelius Vanderbilt, Cornelius.   Speaker 0 (00:04:09) - He's the one that started to amass the family fortune from railroads in shipping businesses in the late 18 hundreds. He became the wealthiest person in America in the 1860s and then he went to pass that title down to his son William Henry Vanderbilt. And then he became the wealthiest American during the 1870s and 1880s. But it began to fall apart with William. Yep, just one generation later. The second generation, one generation after the wealth builder Cornelius and then Gloria Vanderbilt was born. Her father had a gambling problem and squandered most of his fortune. There was also overspending on frequent international travel. So Gloria, the granddaughter of the one that started the Fortune Cornelius, she herself would go on to have four sons each from different marriages. One of her four sons is prominent in American society today, and it might surprise you when I reveal his identity shortly by the time of glory, Vanderbilt's passing, okay, her estate had dwindled from $200 million down to just one and a half million dollars.   Speaker 0 (00:05:25) - So from wealthy to almost middle class right there, her New York apartment was bestowed to one of her sons. Two of her other sons remained estranged and only one of her four sons inherited the majority of the estate. And that person is none other than the, I guess, somewhat esteemed broadcast journalist and author Anderson Cooper. So you can see in the Vanderbilt family how that fertile soil broke down culturally and became in fertile to build something that lasts. You need that fertile soil. There's more than just a cultural component to creating generational wealth. I mean, first of all, of course you need to build the wealth in the first place by listening to this show. You're either on your way there or you're already there. And that means they focus on things that most people don't do. It's places, frankly, a lot of people just don't even look or consider like getting lots of smart debt for leverage or being inflation aware, being tax savvy and owning assets that pay you while you hold onto them.   Speaker 0 (00:06:33) - There's also a legal component here. I am not a tax or legal advisor or professional. So just super briefly in one minute and in plain English you need to have an estate plan. Step one is have a will. That is like a letter that you write before you pass away. Really that's all a will is if you have possessions that you want to go to a certain place, even if you're only 20 years old or if you're 80 years old and you have say a car and a little money or pets, then have a will. You can write a rock solid will really cheaply start at a place like trust and will.com. Then after a will understand a revocable trust, that's a special account where you put your assets like money in real estate while you are still alive. And the key to the word revocable is that you can cancel or change it any time you want to.   Speaker 0 (00:07:34) - When you pass away, things go to your beneficiaries, your heirs, without the annoying probate process in court. Okay, that's a revocable trust. And why have a will versus a trust? Well, there are a few reasons, but if you have less than a million dollar net worth though, then that first step, the will, that's probably going to suffice for what you need. But if it's a million plus, then it's more likely the trust. So really there are two main trust types. I touched on the re revocable trust. Now the irrevocable trust, that's something you cannot change once you set it up. It is rigid, not flexible. Well then why would you set up an irrevocable trust if you can't change it? Well, it can protect you from taxes, lawsuits, and creditors in certain situations. So that is the quick one minute on basic estate planning wills and trusts, yes, there is far more to know like beneficiary designations and durable power of attorney.   Speaker 0 (00:08:37) - But look, here's the thing and the motivation for you devoting sometime to estate planning like that. If you die, you can be assured that your family won't squabble over dividing up your assets if you get that in place and you sure don't want that because they're already gonna be broken up about you passing away. You'll want your generational wealth to pass on in a planned way and also wills and trusts. That's the way that your family locates your assets in the first place. Today you'll see how our guests and his wife hit financial freedom when they had $85,000 worth of real estate income and note that that was seven years ago. So therefore on an inflation adjusted basis, that might be say 110 K or 120 K in today's dollars depending on what you think the rural rate of inflation is. And then you'll see how that got him thinking about generational wealth and what he's doing to help others with it.   Speaker 0 (00:09:40) - Like I said, he's doing something with it I've just never heard of before. But first, I hope that you've been enjoying our valuable, don't quit your Daydream letter where lately I sent you that great map that shows where the top job growth states are. That chart comparing your rent increases to your increase in operating expenses, that story about how Phoenix is going to have construction limits due to their declining water supply. And all those stories about how wacky California real estate has become, including State Farm recently halting new insurance policies in the state of California. If you aren't reading our letter, which has a dash of humor, I send it about weekly, then you are missing out. I'd love to have you read it. It is totally free. It's full of real estate investing industry trends and forecasts and broader economic forces that are gonna affect you in the future and more.   Speaker 0 (00:10:38) - And also whenever we have job openings here at G R E as we keep growing, they are announced in the letter as well. And now you can easily sign up for the letter by text. And if you aren't one of the many subscribers growing your means with my letter, you can simply text GRE to 66 8 66 for or don't quit your Daydream letter. Again, it's free and I rate every single word, all the letter myself. I don't think that many founders do that. This letter is written from me to you and you get top investment property news in just a five minute read. You'll get some valuable introductory emails and then after that it's only sent about once a week, not daily. And again, you can sign up by simply texting G r e 2 6 6 8 6 6 for the letter that's GRE 2 6 6 8 66 generational wealth straight ahead. You're listening to Get Rich Education with J W B Real Estate Capital. Jacksonville Real Estate has outperformed the stock market by 44% over the last 20 years. It's proven to be a more stable asset, especially during recessions. Their vertically integrated strategy has led to 79% more home price appreciation compared to the average Jacksonville investor since 2013. JW B is ready to help your money make money, and to make it easy for everyday investors, get started@jwbrealestate.com slash g rre. That's JWB real estate.com/g R E   Speaker 0 (00:12:14) - GRE listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS 40 2056. They've provided our tribe with more loans than anyone. They're truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four plexes. So start your pre-qualification and you can chat with President Chaley Ridge personally. They'll even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio. start@ridgelendinggroup.com.   Speaker 4 (00:12:49) - This is Hal Elrod, author of the Miracle Morning and listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Weinhold and don't quit your daydream.   Speaker 0 (00:13:05) - Hey, I would really like you to meet someone today. He and I met last year through our mutual friend Dave Zook and of all things last year we crawled through a cave in the middle of the woods in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania together and I mean Crawled. He is a real leader, he's a professional investor and founder of the Elevate Investing Group. Welcome to G R e Michael Manthei!   Speaker 5 - Michael Manthei (00:13:29) - Keith, thank you for having me been a longtime fan of you and the show and the worldwide impact you've had. So honored to be here   Speaker 0 (00:13:36) - In your bio, you haven't yet added that you're an amateur caver or spelunker as it is   Speaker 5 (00:13:42) - One attempt at S Splunking. I'm not sure if I can put it in the bio yet, but uh, maybe after a second round .   Speaker 0 (00:13:48) - Well Michael, you have done though what most everyone wants, which is actually not spelunking. You have achieved financial freedom in your early thirties and you're much older than that now. You've now got more than a decade of experience in syndications property management and you have over $200 million worth in real estate acquisition. So talk to us about how you obtained financial freedom after less than four years of investing.   Speaker 5 (00:14:17) - I feel like it could be, uh, you know, almost an infomercial with how it's gone. You know, I read Rich Dad Poor Dad and that completely changed my world growing up. I wasn't around wealthy people to know how they thought or what they did with their money or how they got there. So to get a glimpse through the book, rich Dad Poor Dadd changed my life and I set a similar goal as Robert had in the book of buying two properties a year. So after 10 years I figured I'd have 20 properties if everything went well, but could never have expected that. Yeah, like you said, within four years we bought 55 units, had enough passive income to retire. It went a lot faster than I thought, but incredibly grateful. We started with a single family house. I was completely broke when I got married.   Speaker 5 (00:15:08) - I was actually a missionary for seven years coming off the mission field, not a dollar to my name. Married my wife who had saved a lot of money for me at the time was $25,000 is what she came into our marriage with. And so I was broke. She had 25,000 and that's how we bought our first rental, which was interesting to work through that process with her, you know, using her life savings to buy the first rental when we were still rent a house. You know, she thought she'd save this for her first house and I said, Hey, how about instead of us buying a house for ourselves, let's buy a house for someone else and start this journey to financial freedom. From there we bought another single family house, then we bought a 10 unit property and with that 10 unit property I bought it cash with a hard money loan.   Speaker 5 (00:15:56) - When I went to the bank to go to permanent financing, it appraised for 150,000 more than we bought it for. And so we got all the money back plus a line of credit of $75,000 that then opened us to keep buying. But Keith, the real advantage of that deal was it unlocked my mind to say I don't have to be limited by my own capital. I had no money in that deal and I thought we were gonna be limited by our own capital the whole way, you know, save up 20% down payment. This deal happened in such a way that it kind of unlocked this infinite return concept. And so from there it was kind of off to the raises. Once the creativity was set free from that point, including that 10 unit, we bought 50 units in less than two years and achieved our goal of financial freedom.   Speaker 0 (00:16:46) - That is really fast. And I note that at that point with the 55 units, you had a million dollar net worth and those assets generated $85,000 in annual cash flow. But dropping back thinking philosophically the book that introduced me to the concept that I didn't wanna believe for a moment or at least it was one of the Robert Kiosaki books and that is being wealthy is a choice. I actually didn't believe that. And you are being very intentional with the out-of-the-box choices that you're making and you and your wife Kristen, much like me, when I started, I didn't have much of my own money either. I started with that three and a half percent down payment on a fourplex. So then really the impetus often for using other people's money is because you have to because you don't have much of your own money.   Speaker 5 (00:17:33) - Yeah. And that's part of, you know, creating the grit. It can be a a blessing to those of us that wanna learn and grow to not have a lot handed to us because the confidence that it brings to be able to figure stuff out and get creative. And what I love is, and what I hope my story helps provide to your audience is when you see somebody else that's done it or hear stories of real people that have done it, it just unlocks the capability inside to say, Hey, that guy doesn't look that special. I think I could walk down some of the same road. So totally agree that it's, it's a philosophical shift and for me the big one was buy cash flowing assets. That kind of became my mantra that all my work, all my effort, all my energy went into acquiring cash flow producing assets and that simple concept just opened a whole new world,   Speaker 0 (00:18:26) - Real assets produce real income. So you began with, it sounds like a rental single family home and then shortly thereafter this 10 unit apartment building that sounded like that was the real pivot point for you. It allowed you to get creative that just gave you that much more room, that much more leverage. Had that been a duplex and it appraised overvalue or probably wouldn't have appraised 150 K overvalue like a 10 plex did. So tell us more about the options that gave you in growing this fast.   Speaker 5 (00:18:55) - The reason I was looking for a larger building is cuz my wife had gotten pregnant. She was working part-time during that portion of her life and I just had it in my heart. You know, she had wanted to stay at home with our kids once we started having kids. So she's pregnant, I'm thinking let's go find an asset that would replace her part-time income. So I was looking for smaller things honestly. I was like, well maybe if I buy a couple duplexes or a couple triplexes and then this 10 unit came on the market, but I'd had some issues with this seller on a previous purchase that we were trying to work towards and they just seemed a little bit squirrely. So I said, you know what, I want to give the most airtight offer that I can. So I talked to a hard money lender, said, Hey, I'm gonna offer all cash, no contingencies.   Speaker 5 (00:19:43) - So it was a big risk. I mean we're buying 10 units, we only had two at the time, so it felt like this huge stretch didn't have, you know, the money to do it ourselves. So got the hard money loan. But then when we took it to the bank and they gave us the appraisals, like oh my goodness. So not only did they pay off the hard money loan and give us a $75,000 line of credit, they also gave us like maybe 10, $15,000 that we, you know, put in our bank account. But then we could use that 75,000 to go put down payments on other properties and go buy other properties cash and then refinance out of 'em. So it really just, it changed everything. It unlocked everything for us.   Speaker 0 (00:20:19) - If you were going all cash, why did you need the hard money loan?   Speaker 5 (00:20:23) - The hard money loan. Once I secured that, I could offer all cash to I see the seller. So I gave 'em a cash contract because I had the cash lined up with the hard money lender.   Speaker 0 (00:20:34) - So it was about that deal making using your intuition when one seems squirrely. So that really leveraged things for you there in order to grow that faster as you're going through this process, as you're building this portfolio. Okay, now you've got 55 units, which does give you enough cash flow, $85,000 a year for most people to declare financial freedom. The interesting thing is you had the million dollar net worth at that time. Most people with a million dollar net worth are really only about middle class because they don't have residual cash flow. So net worth matters, but it's not as important as your passive income. You had the 80 5K of residual income accompanying that million dollar net worth and that's what makes the difference.   Speaker 5 (00:21:23) - Yeah, it goes back to the cash flow producing assets. All my effort was focused on acquiring those assets that would pay me the rest of my life. Never flipped anything, have a lot of friends that do flipping and I didn't want to get addicted to that big payout. You know, I take one single family house and maybe I make 20, 30, 40, 50,000 on it. I felt like I was gonna get addicted to that. Whereas for us, the first house that we bought, Keith, like $200 a month of cash flow, it's like this feels like it's doing next to nothing. But I said, you know what, I have a long-term goal here. The only way to get there is one property at a time, one step at a time. You eat the elephant one bite at a time. And so I said, let me continue making steps towards my goal and it snowballed faster than I expected. But again, cash flow producing assets,   Speaker 0 (00:22:12) - Find that first property with say, $200 in monthly cash flow. That doesn't change really anything in your financial life, but it changes your mindset. It's a pretty incredible moment. Like ta-da when that $200 shows up month in and month out with little or none of your own effort at all. That's really where it starts. You talk about retiring shortly after this time and you had a major philosophical shift then when you retired at just age 33. So tell us about that.   Speaker 5 (00:22:42) - I thought retirement was the goal. You know, I read in four hour work week and other, you know, books like that and it's like inactivity is the goal and I'm ashamed to say that I bought into that and you know, I can't wait till I do nothing. So once we got there, literally within a week I was bored. I'd worked like crazy to get to that point. I was working, you know, 50, 60 hours a week at my normal job plus buying and self-managing, you know, up to 50 units on the side. So it was a lot of work and I needed some time to rest. But after a week of rest, all my energy came back and I said, this feels wrong. I just had this sense. I have not been created to go through the rest of my life from 33 on in my easy chair.   Speaker 5 (00:23:27) - I wasn't expecting that at all. It, it hit me by surprise. And so I realized that that goal of financial freedom was a great motivator, but very empty once we got there. We recalibrated, my wife and I, you know, a lot of time in prayer talking with each other. It was a new experience to think we can do anything we want now. You know, our decision on what we do next is doesn't need to be dependent on how to pay our bills. Simple lifestyle, 85,000 a year covers us, but as we considered it, realized absolutely love what I'm doing, but this would be so much more fulfilling if we did it in relationship, became a part of other people's story, helped them on their journey, invest together, build a community and get to know people, build long-term relationships. So that was the major shift and uh, it's been seven years since then, so I appreciate that. Uh, you said I'm not much older than 33, uh,  40, which I guess isn't too far out, but we've had a lot more fulfillment in the last seven years as we've been a part of other people's journey.   Speaker 0 (00:24:30) - So that was really the turning 0.7 years ago at age 33 where you're like, we did what we have to do now we get to do what we want to do. Yeah, you're a man that serves. So basically to that point you had been serving society with good housing and now you can pivot to serving investors.   Speaker 5 (00:24:48) - Yeah, and really to me, service is life. The Bible talks about if you want to receive, give and you'll receive. So I've never focused on how do I receive, how do I get more. For me it's simple. I try to simplify things. What is the one input that I can focus on that then will knock down the rest of the Dominos? So it's give. And so I've looked at how can I serve, how can I give? And that's been my focus and that has opened up tremendous, uh, doors of opportunity. So seven years ago a mutual friend with Dave Zuck and he's doing these syndications and I was like, Dave, I wanna learn this, I wanna do this. So he introduced me to the guys that taught him and we started doing larger deals and, and Keith, I started on the smaller end. The first two deals that I put together as syndications were both 11 unit apartment buildings.   Speaker 5 (00:25:41) - And I'd already bought 10 units and 11 units and 12 unit buildings myself at that point. And I didn't need other people's capital to buy those, that point of our journey. But the goal had shifted from before that it was, how can I maximize my profit on these real estate deals, you know, maximize my cash flow, maximize my profit, and it switched to how can I give people a great experience with me? And so to me you can't give without it coming back. So in one sense I gave away more equity than I would've needed to, to have some investors and partners come along the journey with me. But I knew that if I gave them a good experience and learned this business, that that would snowball into a scale that we would never have been able to touch outside of that, which is exactly what's happened.   Speaker 0 (00:26:32) - It's interesting that you mentioned 11 unit apartment buildings because I have owned some of those myself. Oftentimes that's a zone I've operated in kind of these mid-sized apartment buildings. Things that are, are a million and a half dollars in value or below because oftentimes the big boys don't play there. But now you learn how to be a go-giver, that's become part of who you are and that's how you could go bigger with larger apartment buildings in making those opportunities available to investors.   Speaker 5 (00:27:00) - Yeah, it's really hard to take on investors at a smaller level. So when the, the focus shifted to how can I be a part of people's journeys and make long-term relationships with people, the answer is to scale up. And so, you know, we've scaled from there to now we own over 2000 apartments, uh, with our investor group and me serving them as a general partner.   Speaker 0 (00:27:21) - Congratulations. One of the first things that struck me about you when I met you is really your holistic vision of what wealth is. Finances are obviously part of that, but only one piece of the pie and you often champion generational wealth. Tell us about how you think of total wealth and generational wealth.   Speaker 5 (00:27:42) - I have three kids now. Uh, they are the greatest gifts in my wife and i's life. And when you have kids and you have people that you pour into, you start thinking about how can you improve their lives and how can you build something that outlives you? So this generational wealth concept has been, I would almost say consuming me. I mean it's just how I filter everything that I do. Where you set your strategy, tells you what your tactics are gonna be. So if you're making short-term decisions, you can do things that work short-term. They don't necessarily need to work long-term. But I said, what's the most successful patterns that I see in the world of wealth, in the world of impact? And it's these family dynasties that grow, preserve and pass on wealth from generation to generation. And so for me, there's a few things that go into that.   Speaker 5 (00:28:40) - It's obviously the financial wealth that's a big piece of it. You need, if you're gonna talk about generational wealth, you're talking about a substantial amount of money that gets passed from one generation to the next in in such a way that it can be carried on by that next generation. But we've all seen examples where just giving the money is not a total solution. And so really focusing on the relationships around you and the people and your family. I'm a fan of making your wife the greatest treasure your spouse, you know, for our ladies out there, your significant other, make them the greatest treasure that you have on earth. I look at my wife as my greatest treasure. I look at our kids as our greatest treasure. My kids right now are eight, six, and two and we train them from day one to think of themselves as kings and queens.   Speaker 5 (00:29:32) - I started with two daughters and then my third born is, is a little boy. So he's our little king. But there's this princess culture. All the little girls are princesses. Yeah. And when we grow up we sometimes hear what we heard as a kid in first person. Sometimes people still have those tapes that play and what's a princess? I mean entitled. Yeah, you're royalty but you don't have any responsibility ever since day one. I was like, you're not princesses, you are queens, you're powerful, but you have responsibility. You have resources but you have an obligation to use that to serve the people around you. God made you beautiful. So let's be accepting of every single person that we see, whether they are beautiful or not on the outside the resources that we have. I feel like we are to be a steward of it's never given to us, to prop us up and make others serve us.   Speaker 5 (00:30:25) - For me, my resources is a responsibility to serve others with what I've been given. So pouring into the kids spiritual wealth, which we talked earlier about the Jewish people and how they're the highest net worth per capita people group. Yeah, you look at the rich spiritual history that they passed down for thousands of years from generation to generation to generation. And so in our family, you know the stories of faith, the stories of courage, the stories of high character, I have those in my family that I'm passing down and we're creating new stories that we're passing down. And then the final one for me here on the generational wealth kind of holistic topic is one that you and I um, have some commonality with. And just physical health. If you're not taking care of your body, that is a major hindrance to long-term wealth. You know, your income generating capacity grows as you get older.   Speaker 5 (00:31:21) - We have this retirement mindset in a lot of our country, which I bought into, you know, in my thirties. I don't think it's as helpful as we may think it is if we want to continue to serve others. Our capacity to serve continues to go up throughout our lifetime as long as we're maintain faculty. And so to continue serving, generating wealth throughout our life, lasting as long as we can, putting things in place for the next generation. I wanna be around for a long time. I know you do too. And uh, it starts with taking care of ourselves.   Speaker 0 (00:31:54) - If I do invest well I'm sure gonna wanna be healthy enough to enjoy all of that. So it's really a symbiotic relationship. And you host an event. This year's theme is generational wealth. We're gonna learn about that in just a moment. But why don't you tell us just as a teaser, how does one prevent their generational wealth from getting frittered away? We know that often happens and the generational wealth doesn't really become generational wealth cuz often it doesn't last beyond one or two generations. The Rockefellers are a good example of what to do and keep wealth generational for example. But how do we prevent our wealth from being frittered away? Cuz there's a difference obviously between an inheritance and generational wealth   Speaker 5 (00:32:37) - Just practically for a moment for people that, um, are listening. Number one, you need to learn how money works and you need to get your wealth into assets and protect it from inflation and taxes. You know, those are the two biggest thiefs. So that's number one is, is you need to safeguard your money. Then once you have the wealth built and protected, it's really about passing on the character. That's really what it all comes down to because if you hand an ill-prepared heir a bunch of money, that is typically the worst thing that you can do for 'em. So it's passing on the character and instilling that and developing that in your heirs. There's different strategies for this, you know, you can recording the stories, some of the origin stories of grit, of resolve, of sticking with something until it is successful. Those stories inspire the next generations.   Speaker 5 (00:33:32) - Maybe they don't have the need for the same level of grit, but they can understand the diligence that is required to create and steward the wealth. So recording the stories people do family conferences where you know, if you're a wealth creator for your family, fly everybody in and have some meetings, you know, do it in a fun place, have some fun connected to it. You can have sessions where you're teaching the next generation about how to steward that wealth. You're giving not only the wealth but you're giving the mindsets and the tools of how to create and steward that. So again, goes back to character and the internal wealth that is needed to steward the external wealth, the the physical wealth, the capital and assets and everything.   Speaker 0 (00:34:23) - Oh yeah, that's some really helpful actionable stuff there. If you want to have what most people don't have, you need to be willing to do what most people won't do. Like perhaps these extended family get togethers and yes, that is important stewarding generational wealth. You can watch a a 30 minute video and learn something about taxes or inflation, but character can't so easily be taught. And this is part of what you are talking about at your upcoming event, generational Wealth 2023 in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Tell us about it.   Speaker 5 (00:34:56) - This is our third year of doing, uh, this event. It really strikes a chord with our folks because typically the people that come to our events, they've bought the concept that wealth is not merely an external pursuit and if you don't have the internal wealth to go alongside of it, it ends up being pretty empty. So generational wealth, it's getting people together that have created and stewarded that and then sharing some of the real life stories. Dave Zuck is gonna be a speaker. He's uh, second generation in their family business now. Dave has a bunch of other, you know, businesses with their, his syndication and incredible money manager that he is. But this year his father actually has agreed to talk with us about how he started the family company. So I'm gonna interview him then I'm gonna bring up the four boys, Dave and his three brothers and what it's like taking the business from one level to another, successfully managing that in the second generation and growing it and how they're now passing it along to their children and preparing them to step into leadership.   Speaker 5 (00:36:00) - So I have a couple large businesses that are multi-generation that are gonna share like this also have Mitzi Perdue, I don't know if you've ever gotten a chance to know her. She was the daughter of the man that started uh, the Sheraton Hotels. So grew up in that family dynasty and then married Frank Perdue who created Purdue Chicken and today has, you know, 20,000 some employees. So she's seen from a couple different angles, family dynamics and family wealth that goes generation to generation and she's just a wonderful lady. Such a heart for other people and so full of life. I think she's in her eighties, she's a teenager, she's just so full of life. So she's coming, have a lot of amazing speakers and attendees that fly in from around the country. Last year we had about 350 people excited to see who shows up this year.   Speaker 0 (00:36:49) - See, this is why I wanted to talk about this event because I have attended so many in-person real estate events and masterminds and general investing events. And rarely, if ever do I see multiple generations come up on the stage at the same time to talk about how to do this the right way. Generationally, very few people in events just really think this long term. So I have to congratulate you in advance for putting this together. It's August 18th and 19th and again it is in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Do you have any last thoughts Michael?   Speaker 5 (00:37:22) - So if people want to go to invest elevate.com, that would be a spot to check us out.   Speaker 0 (00:37:28) - I'm highly confident the future generations of your family will know you for more than crawling through a rural Lancaster County Pennsylvania cave.   Speaker 5 (00:37:36) - Yeah, hopefully my legacy includes more than our cave, uh, adventure, even though that was a blast. Last thoughts Keith. I just wanna encourage people to step out into what they feel in their heart to pursue. You know, it takes faith, it takes risk, but it's absolutely achievable. And so I hope my story has provided some encouragement to folks and if any of your people want to come to our event, we would welcome 'em with open arms. So thank you for today, Keith.   Speaker 0 (00:38:02) - It's a unique event in my experience. It's been great having you on the show.   Speaker 0 (00:38:12) - Yeah, as I've gotten to know Michael, he is a real go-giver now. He and his wife began with a single family rental home while they were still renters. Yeah, they owned that rental property before they even had a primary residence. I know a lot of successful people that have done just that. And then it sounded like for him, his third property, a 10 plex, that was the real pivot point. Of course, my pivot point was that very first purchase a fourplex. So for each one of us, the pivot point really came when we felt like we had massive access to other people's money. And you might feel like you have massive access to other people's money with just a 75 or 80% loan on a single family rental or duplex. If that's where you're starting, you don't need Rockefeller or Vanderbilt fortunes to get this going there at Invest Elevate.   Speaker 0 (00:39:04) - The interesting thing about their generational wealth event two months from now is how, from talking to Michael, he's actually not super motivated to have speakers there that are the most well-known names and Polish speakers, even if he has the chance to get them. Now you are gonna find some of those there, but he's interested in real stories, real people, and making a real impact with speakers that don't have some big marketing or sales agenda. And some conference attendees just want to meet the biggest names and get an Instagram selfie with them. And there's nothing wrong with that. You might even do some of that here, but he values real connection in meaning. And yeah, I've never heard of anyone else getting multiple generations of the same families on stage as he interviews them, including people that aren't used to speaking to an in-person audience of a few hundred people. Besides the generational component, you're also going to learn a lot about investing and meet a bunch of genuine, authentic people. That's the environment that he's creating. Gratitude to. Michael Manti Today it is Generational Wealth 2023 in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, August 18th and 19th. Check out invest elevate.com. Until next week, I'm your host Keith. We hold. Don't quit your day. Adrian   Speaker 1 (00:40:26) - Mother   Speaker 6 (00:40:27) - On this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial, or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education L L C exclusively.   Speaker 0 (00:40:55) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for Wealth building. Get rich education.com.

The world’s most powerful nation can’t even house its own people. Keith Weinhold discusses housing shortage problems and solutions. Meet our new Investment Coach, Aundrea. Coaching is free for you. It helps you purchase investment properties. Connect with both of our coaches now at: GREmarketplace.com/Coach We discuss: international RE investing, accumulated dead equity, portfolio loans, declining LTVs, rising insurance premiums, and regional markets. Aundrea can help you with properties nationwide. We discuss Southeast Georgia and the Intermountain West. Southeast Georgia has strong cash flow. We discuss mid-term rentals (MTRs) in the area. Many are single-families under $200K. MTRs are furnished and the owner pays the utilities. In LTRs, a 1% rent-to-price ratio is possible. The Intermountain West features new-build duplexes to fourplexes in fast-growth Utah.  These are better for long-term appreciation and inflation-profiting. Often, you get built-in equity. Fourplexes prices are $970K. Aundrea’s coaching makes it easy for you. She’ll learn your goals. If you prefer, she’ll help you: run the property numbers, write your offer, negotiate inspection and appraisal, manage your property, and help you through closing.    Get started at: www.GREmarketplace.com/Coach Resources mentioned: Show Notes: www.GetRichEducation.com/453 Free GRE Real Estate Coaching: www.GREmarketplace.com/Coach Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Find cash-flowing Jacksonville property at: www.JWBrealestate.com/GRE Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866 Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  Top Properties & Providers: GREmarketplace.com Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Keith’s personal Instagram: @keithweinhold  

Keith Weinhold and Ken McElroy discuss the impact of rising mortgage rates on the commercial real estate market.  They talk about the foreclosure of a Houston real estate investment firm, and the need for syndicators to anticipate changes in interest rates and have capital reserves in place.  The speakers predict that high-rise commercial office buildings will be the first domino to fall in the commercial real estate market.  They also discuss the potential fallout from the expiration of commercial debt and the upcoming Limitless Expo event in Scottsdale, Arizona. Resources mentioned: Show Notes: www.GetRichEducation.com/452 Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Find cash-flowing Jacksonville property at: www.JWBrealestate.com/GRE Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866 Attend the Limitless event, June 15th-17th: LimitlessExpo.com $22M Office Building to Convert to Multifamily: https://www.loopnet.com/learn/deal-of-the-month-22m-office-teardown-makes-way-for-multifamily/2115617288/ Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  Top Properties & Providers: GREmarketplace.com Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Keith’s personal Instagram: @keithweinhold   Complete transcript:   Keith Weinhold (00:00:02) - Welcome to GRE. I'm your host Keith Weinhold last year's spiking of the Fed funds rate caused banks to fail this year and last year's. Doubling of mortgage rates is causing commercial real estate to fail this year. Why is it happening? How bad is it with commercial real estate and how bad will it get? That's the topic of today's conversation with Ken McElroy on Get Rich Education.   Speaker 1 (00:00:27) - Taxes are your biggest expense. The best way to reduce your burden is real estate. Increase your income with amazing returns and reduce your taxable income with real estate write-offs. As an employee with a high salary, you are devastated by taxes. Lighten your tax burden. With real estate incentives. You can offset your income from a W2 job and from capital gains Freedom. Family Investments is the experience partner you've been looking for. The Real Estate Insider Fund is that vehicle, this fund investing real estate projects that make an impact. And you can join with as little as $50,000. Insiders get preferred returns of 10 to 12%. This means you get paid first. Insiders enjoy cash on a quarterly basis and the tax benefits are life changing. Join the Freedom Family and become a real estate insider. Start on your path to financial freedom through passive income. Text family to 6 6 8 66. This is not a solicitation and is for accredited investors only. Please text family to 6 6 8 66 for complete details.   Speaker 2 (00:01:36) - You are listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.   Keith Weinhold (00:01:59) - Welcome to GRE from Montreal, Quebec to Monterey, California across North America and spanning 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Wein. Hold in your listening to Get Rich Education. Real estate investing is our major here. Minors are in both wealth mindset and the economics of real estate. That's what the matriculated graduates with here at G R E. You can think of an interest rate as how much it costs you to use money and to help you understand the preeminence of the cost of money. Let's you and I step back together for a second. If you go buy apples at the supermarket and Apple cost increase affects you. If you go buy a gallon of paint at Home Depot, a paint cost increase affects you. And if you go buy an acre of raw land, a land cost increase affects you. But rising interest rates mean that there was an increase in your money cost and you use money to buy those very apples paint or raw land.   Speaker 1 (00:03:04) - And now you begin to realize how interest rates touch and percolate into every single thing that you buy as a consumer or as an investor. And we know that interest rates are not currently high. Historically, yeah, you heard that right now that's not much consolation to those that are in trouble. But the Fed funds rate is about 5% and all year here the mortgage rate on an only occupied home has stayed between a range of six and 7%. Actually, mortgage rates are a little low. Their 50 year average is about seven and a half percent. Well, so then what's the problem? Well, the problem is not what are indeed historically normal rates. It's that rates rose so fast last year. You look at a graph and they climbed a wall. In fact, it's unprecedented, at least in you and i's lifetime to have them rise that fast. Just last year alone, mortgage rates spiked from 3% up to 7%. Economists estimate a 56% chance that they indeed are going to raise the Fed funds rate again. Yep. There is another meeting. Just next week, let's learn about commercial real estate deals blowing up with Ken McElroy.   Speaker 1 (00:04:28) - I'd like to welcome back longtime real estate investor influencer and multi-time bestselling real estate author and G R E podcast guest regular. Really? Hey, it's the return of Ken McElroy. How's it going Ken?   Speaker 3 (00:04:40) - Great Keith, how are you? It's good chief. Terrific. Great to see you in Arizona too recently.   Speaker 1 (00:04:45) - Yeah, that's right. We were just together in Arizona a few weeks ago, both there and everywhere across the United States, we know that residential loans are for the one to four unit space where those properties typically have long-term fixed interest rate debt, 15 to 30 years. The five plus unit department space is tied to commercial lending even though it's residential property and they often have variable rate debt for a shorter term. And commercial loans are where the trouble is in this world of higher mortgage rates. And a few months ago it made a lot of news in our world, Ken, that a Houston real estate investment firm that was at one time one of the city's largest landlords with $500 million worth of multifamily. They got foreclosed on and launched 3,200 apartments at the time. And one major reason were these floating interest rates that rose so much and rents couldn't keep up proportionately and more deals are going belly up like that. So Ken, tell us about what you are seeing out there now in regard to rising mortgage rates affecting the commercial lending market.   Speaker 3 (00:05:45) - Well, it's true. Obviously we all know that the Fed raise rates 10 times, so they were obviously fighting inflation. So if you bid around this business enough to know, know, you should have known that the Fed usually increases rates when inflation goes high. And so it is one of the tools that they use to kind of tampering 'em down inflation because that, no, the Fed is more concerned about inflation than interest rates because you obviously inflation affects everyone. So yeah, if you're in the real estate space, you might feel like you're being picked on. But the truth is, it's not surprising to anybody who's been around that they use this interest rate increases as a mechanism to lower inflation or the masses. So some of those mistakes that were made, I think it was Arbor, you have to go back to the experience of the syndicator. They elected not to buy interest rate caps and have other kinds of protections around those assets. And unfortunately, you know, some of those investors that invested in those assets, those were things that maybe weren't very clear to them. Uh, we're not exactly sure of all the details, but what's gonna happen next Keith, is we're going to start to see there's gonna be a big division of the experience versus the inexperience, I would guess   Speaker 1 (00:07:08) - A divergency, yes, of course that Fed has that dual mandate of full employment and stable prices since they're still doing pretty well on the employment. They want to get stable prices and the way to get a handle on that is to continue to raise rates. And when the Fed raise rates essentially from zero to five in just about a year, things are going to break. And we're talking about right now what is breaking first in the real estate space. And you mentioned a syndicator, when one buys an apartment building, oftentimes they get what's called a value add project, this renovation stage. And during that time they often have this variable interest rate debt. So often we are talking about apartment syndicators here, sponsors that put the deal together and what the syndicator essentially does is buy the apartment, renovate it, raise the rent, and then they cash it out to investors by either selling it or refinancing it at a higher value. And right here, these are the people that we're talking about that are in trouble due to their rates being jacked up.   Speaker 3 (00:08:07) - That's exactly right. I think you always have to anticipate a change in interest rates, whether they're up or they're down. And I think a lot of times people just always believe that they would stay as is. And I think that was obviously a flaw in their thinking and a flaw in their strategy. The other one of course is capital reserves. You know, cash, you have to have all these things in place. It looked to me from the article, the articles and the, and the different pictures and and things I've seen that they may have run into the problems on the management side as well. And you know, so there's a number of issues that I could see potentially that affected them. And I actually am hearing others kind of stories around this Keith as well. The first domino really to fall I think is gonna be some of these highrise commercial office buildings.   Speaker 3 (00:09:01) - That would be my guess because in a very different scenario where a lot of the folks that own those and maybe were in those, a lot of those tenants are deciding that they don't want their people to come back. Maybe they're doing a work from home model or the people that work for them decide that they don't wanna be back or whatever scenarios there are. There's definitely a lot of vacancies. I was looking today, you know, we're looking at pretty high uh, vacancies in la we're looking at very high vacancies in San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, New York. When I'm talking about high, I'm talking about unprecedented. We're talking about 30, 40% in many cases and in some cases even more so we know that if you have a vacancy that high, you're definitely not paying the debt. And so there's all kinds of these big landlords that are actually defaulting on their loans of those commercial office buildings.   Speaker 1 (00:10:01) - Now we're talking about vacancy in the office space there and we think really in our residential world, of course people think of you as a multi-family guy, but you also are in, you know, self stores in some other spaces. But we just think about the crux of the problem and how that's centered on residential. Maybe you can just talk to us, Ken, about exactly the details of the problem or maybe you have an example from a case study and just what that, that structure looks like for those in trouble.   Speaker 3 (00:10:29) - Why would I be concerned about it? Is, is probably a really good question. And the reason is is because don't forget, we all go to banks for stuff. So if it's an auto loan, a residential loan, a commercial loan or a business loan, it's still a financial institution and it's all connected even though we might only be going for one piece of that. And so as the commercial paper starts to default and starts to make its way into these large regional, smaller community banks, then what's going to happen is the underwriting criteria is going, they're gonna pull back because they don't care. They just know that they're taking water in the boat and they're in trouble. So, so that's why I look at it, you know, obviously, but you have to look at the real estate, the landscape completely, and you realize that, you know, while you might be just doing one piece of that, there are lot and these banks are connected out in the community in many, many, many ways, right?   Speaker 1 (00:11:30) - Yeah, that's it right there. Maybe people, some don't think about just a complete seizure and a reluctance to want to extend loans at all if they have enough on their books that are in trouble,   Speaker 3 (00:11:40) - Right? So that's why I'm looking at it from the multi-family standpoint as well, because we're already seeing underwriting criteria or in other words, banks are saying we're gonna give you less 50% loan to value, 55% loan to value. So why would that be? The reason is is that you know, they're looking at their, just like you would be and and all your personal assets that you have, stocks, bonds, gold real estate, whatever it is, business, each one is performing differently. A bank looks at it exactly the same way. So if something's happening over here that's negative, it's affecting over here and it's shining a light on the whole thing. And so we're already seeing a tougher underwriting. And what that means is that means that you're gonna have to come up with more money for down payments. And of course the banks are gonna be very cautious about any kind of lending if it's on a single family, if it's on a multi-family, if it's on a residential or retail or industrial or office buildings or self storage or whatever it might be. It we're all connected. And so that's what I think is gonna be hitting us is we're gonna be in a debt and a credit crisis here in the next 18 months.   Speaker 1 (00:12:54) - So there could be downward pressure on loan to value ratios, your bank wanting you to put more skin in the game so that they are less exposed and you are more exposed there. So we're talking about maybe new purchases oftentimes in that discussion. What about those that have a loan? Maybe the interest rate has gone higher, they want to refinance it. You know, a lot of times we talk about cash out refinances is something that we want to do when equity accumulates, but could this be an environment for cash in refinances with a lot of these commercial loans?   Speaker 3 (00:13:29) - Yeah, so we've done a couple cash in personally. Yeah. So what does that mean entirely? So what happens is, well let's say you had a load at three and now of course they're over five. Well our rate caps hit us at five, but we still don't forget, we went from three to five. So that little bit of piece was expensive for us even though we had a cap though, recap is simply just an insurance policy on the original purchase, that's all. So we're like okay, that cost us about 20 grand a month on this one property as an example,   Speaker 1 (00:13:59) - The rate cap below   Speaker 3 (00:14:00) - The rate cap below the rate cap purchase was less, but the three to 5% that increase in the mortgage payment was about 20,000 a month. Okay, so call it 250,000 for the year for one asset. So you're like, uh oh. I went from having great cash flow to having a lot less cash flow because my rate went out now it hit the cap. Well I was protected but it still went up 2%. So we started to take a look at what would it cost for us to fix this rate and it was uh, about a million bucks for a cash in. So we did it, we said let's do a million dollar cash in, fix the rate because I'm also afraid of future rate increases. So that $1 million that we put in to fix the rate at 5.2%, we know it's a four year payback or 250,000 times four is a four year payback.   Speaker 3 (00:14:52) - So it's a four year loan. But really what we're doing is we're hedging the entire time and of course we have that cashflow coming out each and every month. And the beauty of that E as you know, is what you do is you hedge the upside. You can always re refinance on the doubt. And all I was trying to do was protect that thing from when the recap expired, what's usually caps for two or three years, let's say. I didn't wanna be in a position where it was, you know, six or seven or something. So that's why we did it. We were just protecting against the future. And these are the kinds of things that you can do if you've been in the room before, you know what I mean? You, if you have the experience and and you see these kinds of things happening, you could take action to help yourself and help your investors. And that is clear that the arbor had not set up their loans that way. They had not set up their cash that way and they perhaps weren't looking at some of those things critically like that.   Speaker 1 (00:15:49) - Anna and I were each active real estate investors through the global financial crisis. So we know a crisis well, we see what each crisis is a little different when we talk about hedging ourselves against the crisis. Can you talk about rate caps, which is basically this insurance that one can buy to put a cap on how high their rates can go. If you go ahead and buy a property to 3% interest rate and you have a 2% rate cap, that means your cap cannot exceed 5%. So therefore if rates go up to 7%, you're kind of in the money.   Speaker 3 (00:16:19) - That's exactly right. And so it's clear to me that they didn't buy those cap, by the way, they're not the only one. There are others. And so if you shine the light on the multifamily industry, there's a fair amount of people that didn't do that either, not just them. And also there's other people that don't have the cash perhaps like the million dollars that we used to do a cash in. And so they're going out to their investors to try to preserve the asset. The crazy thing about it, as you know is we're still very under supply and on a housing stamp. Yeah, the fundamentals of the apartments are actually good though we're still seeing a a little bit moderate red growth and we're hitting theis and the occupancies are good. The apartment industry is not in any kind of crisis. The one thing that's changed is the cost of debt has got up a lot.   Speaker 1 (00:17:14) - Why don't we talk about that some more and just how bad is it going to get Ken, maybe through the perspective of just how much commercial debt is about to expire.   Speaker 3 (00:17:24) - If you google this, you'll see that there's about 1.4 trillion expiring by the end of 2024. So that's a lot . And so what has to happen is, Keith, let's say you all bought something. Well actually there's already examples. If you Google, there's an office tower that was appraised and valued at 250,000,002 years ago and it just traded at 70 as an example. Wow. So there's a big, big haircut there, right? So first of all, all the equity on that original deal gone wipe down and then the that 70, all that does is cover part of probably the debt. So some bank somewhere took it in the shorts, you know, on that deal. And so that is a good segue to say what happens is anything that was purchased, let's say in uh, call it one to three years ago, is subject to massive valuation change.   Speaker 3 (00:18:23) - And if they have a situation where they're trying to do a cash out refi and they're not going to be able to, if they have a situation where they're going to sell, they're not going to be able to because the value of that asset is probably 20 to 30% less than it was just two years ago. So what's going to happen is if they can wait, they might be able to wait it out. If rates go down like everybody's hoping it will, or cap rates go back down like everybody's hoping it will, then you're going to be fine. The issue is going to be the maturities and when they hit,   Speaker 1 (00:19:01) - There's a 20 to 30% loss in value as we know at a 75% loan to value loan. Yes, that is a complete wipe out of the equity. Ken, when we think this through, of course apartments have debt that someone is holding onto and apartments also have equity that someone else is holding onto and equity could be held by. It's not just investors in a syndication, it's also a pension fund or a family office. And if these go under, we have to think about those ramifications of course, but we think about equity that's held by LPs limited partners, which are those individuals that invest in a syndication. What do you think that LPs should do? What kind of situation are they in? I mean are syndicators communicating with their LPs and letting them know things like, hey, there just isn't gonna be a distribution this quarter and I don't know about next quarter either or, how's that communication been?   Speaker 3 (00:19:52) - So it's hard to know. Obviously if you read the article about Arbor, there was not much and a lot of the investors were surprised. It's interesting though, cuz if you really dial into it, there's no way that they were making distributions for a long time as the things were defaulting. So there must have not been distributions on those assets for some time. That would be obviously a red flag. So I think that some syndicators are probably communicating very, very well. But in this particular case, that wasn't happening because of what some of the people were saying in the article that had invested with them.   Speaker 1 (00:20:31) - And when you're talking about Arbor, you're talking about that group in Houston that I brought yeah, up earlier. That's really become sort of like the poster child for what's coming can often that might make one think like the LP that invests in someone else's syndication that might make a savvy investor wonder, well gosh, I wonder if there's going to be a contagion effect. Even if a syndicator shows me a deal and that one particular deal looks really good, does that syndicator have other deals behind him that are blowing up and could affect this good deal that looks good in front of me right now. So what are your thoughts about any sort of contagion effect that way? Are you seeing any of that out there?   Speaker 3 (00:21:08) - It's certainly possible. I know that a lot of it's gonna be based around the debt itself. So if somebody got a deal like we did like two years ago or one year ago that put fixed rate debt on it, not a problem. So you have to take a look at the maturity of the debt. There's a lot of people that have bought properties that where they assumed alone in the commercial space you can assume something, people are still doing deals, you know, so if you could step into somebody else's loan at three, three and a half percent, let's say you're not gonna have a default issue, you're not gonna have a debt issue where the debt's gonna go up while you bought something, it's fixed. And that was kind of the whole point. As you know, I've been telling people to get in fixed straight debt for two years. If you go back and look at my videos, I probably said it a hundred times, getting fixed straight debt, getting fixed straight debt, getting fixed straight debt because you have to know what your debt payment is month to month to month for a long period of time. You don't want a fluctuating variable number. And so the people who didn't do that, the people that in my opinion were inexperienced and didn't by caps, this is the result of that.   Speaker 1 (00:22:23) - We've been talking a lot about problems here. Of course the flip side of any problem is an opportunity. You are an excellent opportunist. You just talked about situations where apartment values could be down 20 or 30%. So are you seeing opportunity, especially with respect to apartment buildings and what's going on coming ahead?   Speaker 3 (00:22:43) - We looked at four deals on Tuesday, we've been in opera on one of 'em. So to your point, if somebody's sitting on some assets and they need cash for ones that aren't doing well, for example, they might sell a couple of the good assets. And what's a good asset? A good asset would be something that's highly occupied and is stable and has fixed rate debt and it's something that you can easily underwrite, easily buy, and you know it's gonna be like clipping a coupon moving forward. That would be what I would call a good asset purchase. And those are definitely hitting the market. So I mean, you think about your own portfolio, you know, at any given time you're looking at the winners and you're looking at the losers, sometimes you have to sell a winner to pay for some of the losers. So we're starting to see some good assets hit the market.   Speaker 3 (00:23:32) - That might be great. They help somebody that's um, in a situation that might need cash for something else. So that is exactly what does happen. That is what's happening. So we're gonna be all over those issues and try to snap up some of these really, really nice assets. Another really good opportunity is going to be on brand new class A apartments that are just now being completed. So you know, as you know on a new construction deal, you do not get fixed straight debt because there's no asset. It doesn't exist. So you have a land, you have to build it until it's considered in service, which means you have all the occupancy certificates and it's blessed and the city says, okay, it's all ready to move it. That's in service. And until that point you can't put fixed rate debt on anything. So there's going to be this many opportunities on assets that are under construction that are in trouble because of these high interest rates. People that come in with all cash, for example, are going to be able to buy some of those properties. What I would guess at under replacement costs, it's going be a very exciting time moving forward for buying perhaps real trophy assets or assets up that people have already done a lot of work on or under what they're worth.   Speaker 1 (00:24:51) - That could be a good niche to exploit. You're listening to get Resu education. We're talking with Ken McElroy about trouble in the commercial lending market and how that affects real estate. Warren, we come back. I'm your host Keith WeHo with J W B Real Estate Capital. Jacksonville Real Estate has outperformed the stock market by 44% over the last 20 years. It's proven to be a more stable asset, especially during recessions. Their vertically integrated strategy has led to 79% more home price appreciation compared to the average Jacksonville investor. Since 2013, JWB is ready to help your money, make money, and to make it easy for everyday investors, get started@jwbrealestate.com slash gre. That's jwb real estate.com/gre. GRE listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS four 2056. They've provided our tribe with more loans than anyone. They're truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four plexes. So start your pre-qualification and you can chat with President Chaley Ridge personally. They'll even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio. start@ridgelendinggroup.com. This is peak prosperity's. Chris Martinson, listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Wein old and don't quit your daydream.   Speaker 1 (00:26:33) - Welcome back to Get Education. We're talking with Ken McElroy, longtime influencer and very successful author, A great influencer in the real estate space. And can you hit mentioned some other sectors outside of the residential and the apartment space earlier, and we look at potential problems or opportunities outside of residential and we think about what's happening to office space. You touched on that earlier, that's probably about the worst real estate sector I can imagine in their high vacancy rates, hotels and retail and warehouses, which actually think about one sector as doing pretty good since the pandemic and online shopping really lifted the warehouse sector. But do you really have any other thoughts about those sectors, how commercial loans affect them or any good opportunities in those outside of residential?   Speaker 3 (00:27:24) - As everyone knows, you know, when you buy a home, they look at your FCO score, right? They look at your credit and they look at you or me as the person paying that home as they should. When you move to the commercial side, they look to the asset. So they're very, very different. One's an individual. Another one is the actual asset. So as these asset values go down, as interest rates go up, I think that anything that's going to need any kind of a loan and the next year or two is going to have a problem from an asset value standpoint. Because what we were all used to in the last 10 years were these value add. So you'd buy something and then you would improve it and it would be worth more money at the credit and debt markets were stable, you know, so you could go, uh, you had a very calculated model where you can go put new debt on there and scoop that out and do a cash out refi that's gone right now because the values are down and of course the cash out refi option is off the table.   Speaker 3 (00:28:30) - So th those are the real problems that people face moving forward. So that could be all kinds of things. It could be retail, it could be industrial, it could be multi-family cuz everything is impacted even though we've had high cracy and red growth in some of those areas. If you're a seller that has a 3% loan and you're trying to sell it to somebody like us who's a buyer, we're probably at six or seven. We're looking at cash flow very differently than they are when our debt costs are almost double. So we're not gonna be able to pay that price. And so that's what the debt, rising debt costs have done. If the income, any expenses are the same, but the debt costs are double, then we as buyers can't afford to pay that. So therefore the prices that we're we can afford to pay are gonna be a lot less. And so that's actually what's happening   Speaker 1 (00:29:26) - And what we think of as perhaps ground zero for problems in the real estate market. I think office first comes to mind, you've talked about office vacancy rates in many American cities being really high earlier, it was a particularly noteworthy stat that was released not long ago that in New York City they have 26 Empire State buildings worth of empty office space. So we talk about all this open office space with more of the work from anywhere crowd and this dearth of residential housing. You know, can you experience, do you learn about very many office buildings being viable for tear down and conversion into residential? Or is that not feasible very   Speaker 3 (00:30:07) - Often? Yeah, so that's the million dollar question. What are we gonna do with these big, big office buildings? And think about this, Keith, let's say it's a 50 story building, which is a very common building all over the place and it's got 20 or 30% occupancy. My guess is, you know, what do you do? Like you have to wait until it's a hundred percent vacant, obviously before you can even do something. So what's going to happen is the banks are actually gonna be taking these back, the banks are gonna be managing these and they're gonna have to figure that out. And the only way to take down an office building is if it's a hundred percent vacant. And even then it might not be worth it because let's don't forget, you step into the shoes on day one of the property taxes of the utilities of the insurance, regardless if it's full or not in order to maintain it.   Speaker 3 (00:30:59) - So there's an operating cost that exists whether there are people in it or not. And so you have to be careful that you're not catching a falling knife. You know, like, I mean if somebody said to me, I'll give you this vacant office building or a dollar, I probably wouldn't take it because unless I had some kind of a solution for the, uh, on the income side. So I'm not saying I wouldn't, but you have to have a solution on the income side to cover your operating expenses. Otherwise you're just gonna be writing checks just like the person before you   Speaker 1 (00:31:34) - That is so well explained on the difficulty of making a conversion feasible from office to residential. Well, if you're like me, you read a lot of Ken McElroy's books like the ABCs of Property Management, the ABCs of Real Estate Investing. Can I read the Return to Orchard Canyon on a beach in India a little over three years ago? Actually, I love that more recent book from you and you have a great live in-person event coming up really soon where the audience can come to see you at a bunch of other speakers. It's a fantastic event. It's a second year, you're doing it, it comes up really soon here in Scottsdale. Tell us about it.   Speaker 3 (00:32:15) - Thank you. It's, I cannot be more excited, especially what's happening right now. It's called Limitless and uh, it's at limitless expo.com. So it's just limitless expo.com. But kicking off the very first day is Joseph Wang, who wrote a book called Central Banking 1 0 1 and he is good. He used to work in New York for the Fed and is going to talk specifically about what's the Fed going to do in the second half of the year in 2024 based on all the things that he did on the open markets desk for the Fed. So that's gonna be very exciting. We've got Chris Martinson as well talking right after him, got kiosaki. We have a whole bunch of people around entrepreneurship and um, kind of side hustle stuff just to try to figure out what the heck is happening and what could we be doing to protect ourself moving forward.   Speaker 3 (00:33:11) - So this is really, this year in particular is a not to miss year because these are things that all of us are trying to figure out. I don't have a crystal ball just like anyone does, and I'm studying like crazy to try to figure out what's happening next. We've got 45 speakers all coming to try to help us understand what we can do next. Chris boss, who's, uh, wrote the book, never Split the Difference. If you guys haven't read that book, you need to read that book. He's the hostage negotiator in the world and he works for the FBI and Harvard. And, and his talk is going to be how to negotiate during troubled times because these are going to be real things, Keith, real things that are happening. You know, when there's a debt maturity or a loan coming up or you have problems with your limited partners or, or whatever it might be, this is the room you wanna be and that's the talk you want to hear. Chris is gonna be there, I'm gonna do a podcast with him. He is gonna do a book signing, so it's really fun. It's gonna be Thursday, uh, the 15th, the 16th or the 17th of June. And uh, it's right in Scottdale, Arizona.   Speaker 1 (00:34:21) - Janice Prager will be there as well. And yeah, it seems like you just keep adding speakers. Okay, I wanna talk to you. Last month it was 40 speakers, now it's 45. So you, you have a buffet that you can sample there as an audience?   Speaker 3 (00:34:34) - We do. I can't wait to meet Dennis Prager. I, I've been to his compasses in la I, I'm a big fan of, you know, his messaging and, and what he, he has a billion downloads last year, A billion with a B. That's incredible. So he's getting to be there. I just think it's like the who's who, right? It's tweet thought   Speaker 1 (00:34:52) - 100%. You can get started@limitlessexpo.com. Can I and our audience have benefited from your knowledge for years? Thanks so much for coming back onto the show.   Speaker 3 (00:35:02) - Yeah, my pleasure. Always great to be on   Speaker 1 (00:35:10) - Most of those speakers at the Limitless event. Were guests here on G R E, so you'll probably find a lot of residents there, including Chris Voss who was the FBI's lead hostage negotiator. He was on the show with us here twice you'll remember. And yeah, you'll remember that pretty fondly  because it was entertaining the first time Chris was here back in episode 331, how the World's Best negotiator and I, Chris Voss did a mock face off in negotiating the purchase of a fourplex building. But getting back to imploding apartment syndications, they aren't just blowing up deals and blowing up investors, but also blowing up banks when the borrower cannot repay the loan. And banks have to take back apartment buildings and office buildings unlike, which is actually pretty unusual in a way that they need to take back apartment buildings. I mean, everyone understands how the work from anywhere movement created, the office space decline, but there is quite a demand for all residential types, single family homes and condos and trailers and apartments.   Speaker 1 (00:36:17) - But it's those resetting rates that blow up apartments despite the demand for people to wanna live there. So what this does, it makes banks more conservative with lower rent values being delivered, lower rent to value ratios also coming on the way. I would expect more of that ratcheting down. And for more people wanting to refi from a variable rate to a fixed rate, you know those syndicators they have got to put cash in in order to meet that lower loan to value ceiling will well capitalize syndicators. They can do that and others can't. Syndicators might very well be asking for capital calls from their investors then for their investors to help fund that cash in refi to keep those deals alive. The timeline for when you should expect a lot of this activity are from the peak 2021 and early 2022 deals that had short-term debt on them.   Speaker 1 (00:37:17) - They are going to face resetting rates late this year and into 2024. You probably noticed that just beyond the halfway point in the chat with Ken. I pivoted from talking about problems to discussing opportunity and the opportunity being that others might sell a good apartment deal because they need the cash to get out of that deal so that they can go take those funds and perform a cash in refi and shore up one of their other deals and get that other deal into fixed rate debt. Most modern offices, you know, they simply cannot be adapted over to residential uses due to their wide and deep floor plates that restrict natural lighting to only the perimeters. And because of the overhauls required to run mechanical and electrical and plumbing to individual residential units in the rare office building where conversions are possible, that sort of thing is wildly encouraged by everyone, developers and brokers and all kinds of governmental bodies.   Speaker 1 (00:38:19) - In fact, there was recently a sale of a 150,000 square foot office building in Orange, California oranges between Anaheim and Santa Ana. It's sold for 22 and a half million dollars and it's planning to be converted from office to residential. But yeah, multi-family conversions like that, they just aren't common. And the full story about that from LoopNet is in the show notes for you today. We've been discussing the difference between one to four unit properties and five plus unit multi-family apartments today. The difference in lending is really what makes all the difference. So those larger apartments bought with variable rate debt, say one to three years ago, they are problematic where the one to four unit space instead stays shielded with long-term fixed interest rate debt. Next week here on the show, you're gonna meet our new investment coach at GRE Marketplace. You have heard this person on the show before. I'll introduce you next week. Yes, we're adding a second one to keep up with demand for you. Until then, I'm your host Keith Wein. Hold, don't quit, it's your daydream.   Speaker 4 (00:39:31) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial, or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests on their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC exclusively.   Speaker 1 (00:39:59) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich education.com.  

Did you expect to hear this about Black people? We have a discussion about equality in housing. First, if you close your eyes and wake up in 10 years, where do you want to find yourself? I explore. For some reason, investors want to time the real estate market, yet they dollar cost average into stocks.  1% down payment mortgages are here. Learn about the latest AI development. The maker of ChatGPT is developing “Worldcoin”. It would verify if you’re human by scanning your eyeballs.  Finally, there’s a long history of racial discrimination in both society and housing. The Fair Housing Act—part of the Civil Rights Act of 1968—helped break down discrimination. The Fair Housing Act protects people from discrimination on the basis of race, religion, national origin, sex, handicap, and family status when they are renting or buying a home, getting a mortgage, or seeking housing financial assistance. Learn the difference between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome. The latter is difficult to administer. Providing equal opportunity in housing is not just the law. It’s the right thing to do. I explain why it actually benefits you. Resources mentioned: Show Notes: www.GetRichEducation.com/451 Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Find cash-flowing Jacksonville property at: www.JWBrealestate.com/GRE Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866 Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  Top Properties & Providers: GREmarketplace.com Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free—text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Keith’s personal Instagram: @keithweinhold   Complete transcript:   Welcome to GRE! I’m your host, Keith Weinhold.    If you close your eyes and wake up in 10 years… where do you REALLY want to be? 1% down payment mortgages are here, profound AI impacts in your life…   Then, some contentious and even volatile discussion about racial discrimination and Black people… in housing. You’ll get my opinion on equality of opportunity. Today, on Get Rich Education. ____________   Welcome to GRE! From Allentown, PA to Glen Allen, VA and across 188 nations worldwide, I’m Keith Weinhold and this is Episode 451 of Get Rich Education… where we don’t live below our means. We grow our means.    If you’re being told that you’re crazy or that things aren’t going to work out… you know… hearing that right there can actually be a prerequisite to you being successful.    Are people raising their eyebrows at what you’re doing?    Yeah that could actually be some positive feedback on your direction, as long as your head tells you that it’s right and your gut backs it up.    Don’t trade away your authenticity for approval.   Look, if you close your eyes and wake up in 10 years, what do you want to see when you open your eyes? Awards for work?    I doubt it. Or is it kids, family and relationship-oriented?    Or is it, invisible footprints that you’ve left behind all over earth because you traveled or explored that much?    You DID raft the Grand Canyon, visit the Taj Mahal, see the Eiffel Tower, or dive the Great Barrier Reef?   Yeah, it’s probably those types of things.   Well then, why are you putting 90% of your effort into career-oriented stuff… if that doesn’t help you achieve that goal 10 years from now?    That’s a better set of questions for you to ask yourself.   That’s why we talk about generating residual income when you’re actually young enough to enjoy it here.   Rich people play the money game to win - that’s what we do here. While most people play the money game not to lose.   Real estate is not always easy. It’s not OVERNIGHT wealth, you’ll have your problems. But it can be amazing when you have a strategy and stick to it.   If you want me to make your financial life better in 30 days, maybe I can in some cases but that’s really not what we’re doing here, probably not even in a few months.   But in a few years… yes, definitely.   And I think it helps to remember something simple. The only place that you get money is from other people.   All your life, the only way that dollars have come into your hands or into your bank account is because it came.. from other people.   For many, that’s just one person - one employer that the money comes from.   With each rental property that you add, that is one more person that is paying you…   … that’s of tangible benefit to you in a world where the only place that you get money is from other people.    Now, as we dip into the mechanics about how to achieve that…   What would be different if you HADN’T taken action in RE?   Now, I don’t know what it is, but for some reason, people are trained to TIME THE MARKET in RE.    Yet people might put 10% of their salary - up to $22,500 is allowed this year - $30K if you’re over 50. They put that in their 401(k) - dollar-cost averaging - which is NOT timing the market.   I don’t know why that is. Why some people are predisposed to time the market in RE but yet they DCA in stocks - which is the opposite of timing the market.   Maybe it’s the cost of the property?   Treat RE the same way - DCA there too. Keep adding 1 or 2 a year or whatever you can.   When you consider 401(k)’s low returns and low liquidity, you might not even be putting money into it anymore.   You’ve got the wherewithal to know that very dollar you lock in a 401(k) is a dollar that can’t use OPM.   And it gets even worse.    Because with a 401(k), you are HOPING TO DIE before the money runs out. What kind of a retirement plan or life plan is that?   Doesn’t sound like diving the Great Barrier Reef to me. Ha!   Rocket Mortgage introduced a new 1% down home loan program. This is a new product for them. But some people to think it’s the first.    It’s not the first. It comes on the heels of rival United Wholesale Mortgage rolling out a similar program.   But this particular program is expected to reach a lot of people.   And here’s the thing. It also eliminates the monthly mortgage insurance fee. It deletes monthly PMI.   Now, even if we’re just talking about primary residences here, this affects you in the rental property market. I’ll tell you why in a moment.    But with this 1% down payment program, a buyer using this program who’s purchasing a single-family home, well, their income can be no more than 80% of their area’s median income…   … they are only required to make a down payment of 1% of the purchase price.    Then the lender covers the remaining 2% needed to reach the required 3% threshold for conventional loans.   So it’s not only going to reduce upfront costs, but that monthly mortgage insurance fee for the borrower is gone, which is typically a few hundred dollars a month… That what they had to pay traditionally, if the buyer puts less than 20% down on their purchase. That’s going to help affordability. So with 3% down being reduced to 1% down, then a homebuyer of a $250,000 home would only need a $2,500 down payment instead of $7,500. Now, strict underwriting guidelines are still in place - you need income and credit and assets. There aren’t really as many mortgage borrowers that put 20% down on a home as you might think. In fact, the average new purchase down payment amount in America is only between 6 and 7%. But this 1% option, which it’s estimated that 90 million Americans will qualify for - over the long-term, that is just going to increase the available pool of buyers, of course, because more people that were on the edge of affordability can now qualify. Now, in a normal market, a few of your tenants that were on the brink of qualification might be able to run off - and buy. But you’ve still got those erstwhile strict underwriting guidelines and there’s still just such a lack of supply of this entry-level housing - like I updated you on last week. You can’t move into what doesn’t exist. So this could create some tenant attrition, but it should be pretty limited for those reasons.   But, yeah, with this larger pool of buyers that now qualify, that puts more upward pressure on property prices.    When you make any good or any commodity MORE affordable in the short-term like this, with more buyers & more bidders, it makes that much LESS affordable long-term because that competition pushes prices up.   It’s just like decades ago, as soon as financial assistance came to the college enrollment world with Stafford loans and Pell grants and all that stuff, what did it do?   More people could afford to PAY MORE with more & better loan types and that made college costs skyrocket.   The same effect is happening here when you lower down payment requirements to just 1%.    Though, that factor alone shouldn’t make home prices skyrocket. They shouldn’t shoot up. But it’s just another tailwind on upward price momentum.   Typically when a tech CEO goes in front of a Senate committee, it gets embarrassing. Like, they end up explaining how to use email.  OK, Senate committees are not known for being tech savvy.  Not so a couple weeks ago, when Sam Altman, CEO of ChatGPT-maker OpenAI, testified on Capitol Hill on the future of AI and how the field should be regulated. Now Sam Altman has a lot more going on than just ChatGPT. It’s possible that he’s the future wealthiest man in the world. Now, this is where it gets scary. He’s about to secure a $100 million funding round for an eye scan-accessible global cryptocurrency project, Worldcoin. That’s what the Financial Times told us. Worldcoin is not totally unrelated to his signature project. The company’s goal is to verify whether users are human by scanning their irises to disburse universal basic income… to workers displaced by AI. Now, I’ve explained before how technology actually creates jobs, not destroys them.  But the hearing continued with a discussion of the dangers of an unpredictable, evolving technology that can generate and spread misleading information without us even realizing it’s fake- like those famous fake images of the Pope in a puffer jacket or Trump running from police. Well, for his cryptocurrency, Worldcoin, Sam Altman has already released a World App crypto wallet that can be downloaded to your mobile phone. And he’s got big plans for Worldcoin as the first-ever cryptocurrency to be held by every person on the planet.   It runs on the Ethereum blockchain. You don’t need to know what that means. In practical terms, Worldcoin will look (and trade) a lot like the cryptocurrencies that you’re already familiar with. So in that regard, Worldcoin isn’t breaking any new ground.   What makes Worldcoin stand out is the fact that it has aspirations to be both a cryptocurrency and a global identification system. With a tag line of "the global economy belongs to everyone," Sam Altman plans to distribute Worldcoin tokens to every single human on planet Earth.   And this is where things get really creepy. To pick up your free Worldcoin crypto token and sign up for a Worldcoin ID, you will need to give Sam Altman a scan of your eyeballs.    Yes, you heard that right -- Worldcoin has created a proprietary iris-scanning tool known as the Orb. Once you've had your eyeballs scanned with the Orb, you're good to go.    Altman says this step is necessary to verify that you are a real human and is not meant to be an invasion of your privacy. He won't even ask you for your name.   Yeah… I don’t know if people are going to go for that, especially Americans. Americans are more suspicious and have more resistance to authority than most places.    We’ll see what develops with WorldCoin but expect to hear more about Sam Altman.   If you want more real estate education, your source is GetRichEducation.com   For actually physical property addresses conducive to financial freedom, create one login one time like thousands of others have. You can get started there at GREmarketplace.com   More straight ahead, including a discussion and some contention about racism. I’m Keith Weinhold. You’re listening to Get Rich Education.   ________   Welcome back to GRE. I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. As we’re about to get to racism, now, first…    It's no secret that I prefer investing directly in single-family rental homes and apartment buildings.   But when I look for real estate investments that are even more passive than turnkey...   ... I just thought you might like to know that I personally invest my own money through a company called Freedom Family Investments.   Right from the beginning, they’ve always provided me with exactly their stated return, paid on time.   You might wonder, what makes their funds any better than, say, a Wall Street REIT or a 401(k)? Well, for starters…  It's being paid passive cash flow today, not when I'm age 65+. And Tax benefits that offset W-2 job income and capital gains. This part itself can be life-changing. It might be hard to rake in as much money as Taylor Swift's Eras Tour when you're young enough to enjoy it. But this can get you closer.   The fund invests in real estate projects that make an impact. So consider becoming an insider along with me.   We get preferred returns of 10% to 12%. That means we get paid first. Cash flow is paid quarterly.   You can join us with as little as $50K. It is for accredited investors only.   Freedom Family Investments they ARE THE experienced partner on the most PASSIVE portion of my real estate holdings.   If this sounds interesting, text FAMILY to 66866 and ask about the Real Estate Insider Fund.   Again, text FAMILY to 66866   Let’s discuss racism and discrimination in America.   It’s a topic that I think some people don’t want to discuss. But I will today, because, here we are, Episode 451 and it’s the first time.   This was recently published on our Get Rich Education YouTube Channel, so expect some sound effects as we’re about to play this for you here.   The first voice that you hear is 60 Minutes interviewer Mike Wallace with Morgan Freeman, then Denzel Washington, and finally, Dr. Jordan Peterson.    This is about 10 minutes in length, and then I’ll come back to wrap it up for you.   **PLAY VIDEO**   We’ll end it there. If you’d like to see more, check that out on our Get Rich Education YouTube Channel.   I’ll tell ya. Practicing equanimity, it was kinda difficult for me to discuss a sensitive topic. I’m not sure if you can tell in the video, but my forehead is sweating by the end of it.   The least that you need to know is that 1968's Civil Rights Act includes the Fair Housing Act.   This is a piece of landmark legislation is something that any citizen should know the basics about, and even moreso for a real estate investor.   The Fair Housing Act protects people from discrimination on the basis of race, religion, national origin, sex, handicap, and family status...   ...when they are renting or buying a home, getting a mortgage, or seeking housing financial assistance.    So it’s not just when you’re renting to someone, it’s when you’re lending to someone.   You shouldn't steer your advertising in an exclusionary way. Even terms like "cozy bachelor pad" or "ideal for young couples" should be avoided.   And equal opportunity is simply better for you as a landlord.   Say that you excluded a rental applicant group that comprised 30% of the population.   Then your available renter pool would shrink by that amount, reducing your income potential, reducing your occupancy rate, and reducing your tenant quality. So keep that in mind.   Next week here on the show we are talking about some big problems and really… the toxicity in the apartment market, the commercial real estate market… and how 2022’s sudden spike in interest rates is causing syndications to fail.    Apartment building owners are getting foreclosed on. More of that is coming as their VARIABLE interest rate debt resets to WAY higher levels.   How bad is it going to get? What are you supposed to do as an investor if you’re IN a syndication? What’s it look like if you’re a real estate syndicator yourself?   Who is safe and who is going to go… under?   All that and more will be answered next week when Ken McElroy returns to the show here with us.    I really appreciate you being here this week.    But as always, you weren’t here for me, you were here for you. I’m Keith Weinhold. DQYD!  

Get a 4.75% mortgage rate or 100% financing on new-build Florida income property. Start here. If I gave you $10M, learn why that probably wouldn’t even help you. We revisit how “Real Estate Pays 5 Ways”, a concept that I coined right here on the show in May 2015. Some think real estate pays three, four, or six ways. I revisit why there are exactly five. Real estate has many paradoxical relationships. I explore. Americans are living in homes longer than ever, now a duration of 10 years, 8 months. The active supply of available housing dropped again. Get an update on the gambling industry. A major sports gambling platform has offered to advertise with us. Take my free real estate video course right here.  Zillow expects US home values to rise 4.8% from April 2023 to April 2024.  Months of available housing supply is currently 2.7 per Redfin. Resources mentioned: Show Notes: www.GetRichEducation.com/450 Active Supply of Available Homes: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ACTLISCOUUS Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Find cash-flowing Jacksonville property at: www.JWBrealestate.com/GRE Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866 Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  Top Properties & Providers: GREmarketplace.com Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free—text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Keith’s personal Instagram: @keithweinhold   Complete transcript:   Welcome to GRE! I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. If you were gifted $10M right now, why that very well wouldn’t help you at all.   Learn a fresh take on how Real Estate Pays 5 Ways at the same time. A housing market update with perennially sagging inventory supply amounts and more outlooks for stronger home price appreciation than many expected. Today, on Get Rich Education.   Welcome to GRE!    From Montevideo, Uruguay to Montecito, CA and across 188 nations worldwide, you’re listening to one of the longest-running and most listened-to shows on real estate… the voice of real estate investing since 2014. I’m your host and my name is Keith Weinhold.   How would you like it if I gave you $1M?   You know what? That’s not enough to make my point. Make it $10M. I adjusted for inflation - ha! How much would you like it if I gave you $10M? How would that feel?   But what if it comes with this one condition.   What if I told you that I’ll give you the $10M, but you are not waking up tomorrow?    Not waking up tomorrow? No way!   Now you know that waking up tomorrow is worth more than $10M.   This is how you know that your time and your life are worth infinitely more than any dollar amount.   Hmmm… if your time is so valuable. Then why did you check Instagram 15 times yesterday to see who viewed your Stories? Ha!   Why are you spending time with your AI girlfriend? Ha!   Get Rich Education is ultimately about living a rich LIFE - whatever that means to you.   And we do approach that from the financial perspective here. Money does matter… because leverage, cash flow, and inflation-profiting enable you to BUY time.   We’re really one of the few investing platforms… this show is one of the few places with the audacity to tell you that - sure, a little delayed gratification is good… but the risk of too much delayed gratification is DENIED gratification.   Denied gratification is a terrible investing risk that most people either don’t give enough weight to - or don’t factor in at all.   And getting a $10M windfall is not as great as it sounds either.    History shows that the $25M Lottery winner quickly loses their money. Why does that happen?  Because it seemed like it was effortless to get the windfall, and because they don't know how to handle an amount like that.  It’s really similar to a capital gains-centric investor that gets a windfall.  See, cash flow investors like you & I - we can be more measured because your income stream is metered out over time. That’s why you are less likely to be irrational with your gains.     Now, I touched on some of those ways that you’re paid in real estate investing.    Real Estate Pays you 5 Ways™ simultaneously. That’s a concept that I coined right here on the GRE podcast. We since went on to have it trademarked.   Do you know when I first introduced that concept right here on the show - the month & year?    And I’ve since gone on to do a lot with “Real Estate Pays 5 Ways” to help other audiences understand real estate’s five distinct profit sources.   Well, I had someone on Team GRE here do some digging into some of our legacy shows - our past episodes… because I wanted to know when I first said it… and it was apparently in May of 2015, so 8 years ago that I introduced it.   Since then, many other thought leaders have gone on to cite the phrase. Someone other than me even wrote a book on it. And that doesn’t bother me at all. I’d rather that other people and readers get good ideas. That’s more important than getting the credit.   Of course, c’mon, you can recite these 5 now like they’re the Pledge Of Allegiance or something.    This is as automatic as the Lord’s Prayer is for Christians. The five are: Appreciation Cash Flow Your return on Amortization and Tax Benefits and finally Inflation-Profiting But now, let’s dissect this frog here a little. Why five ways? Why not another number, like real estate pays four ways or six ways?   It is five. There are no more or less. Each of the five are a distinct benefit.   A common flawed case that Real Estate Pays 4 Ways is that most real estate teachers omit the Inflation-Profiting benefit on the long-term fixed interest rate debt.   Any GRE devotee knows that with 5% inflation on $1M in debt, you only owe the bank $950K of inflation-adjusted debt after year one, $900K after year two, etc. (And in the meantime, the tenant pays all of your mortgage interest.)   Some that make the 4 Ways case question the Tax Benefit. Could the tax benefit really be considered a profit source, or is it just a deal sweetener?   It's a profit source.   Outside the real estate world, to obtain a tax write-off, you must have a real expense backed up with receipts, like building a new computer equipment or buying a new farm tractor.   Instead, the magic of real estate tax depreciation says that you can just write off 3.6% of the improved property value each year just for doing... nothing all year. No improvements necessary.   It's a phantom write-off, yet legitimate to the IRS.   Then the 1031 Exchange means you can endlessly defer all of your federal capital gains tax for your... entire life.   Yes, it's one of the few places in life where procrastination actually pays.   I've even heard some say that they're a fan of GRE's Real Estate Pays 5 Ways™, but they've discovered a sixth.   This often involves an event that's either unlikely or falls into one of the existing 5 Ways.   For example, "My appraisal value exceeded the contract price. I’m buying it for $320K, but the appraisal is $340K. I got $20K in instant equity. See, I was paid a 6th way."   No.   I mean, good for you, $20K of instant equity is a nice sweetener - that’s a $20K credit in your net worth column that you received the moment you opened up that appraisal e-mail from your lender and saw it. Nice!   But an appraised value that exceeds the purchase price is not COMMON enough to be expected… and the 5 Ways are.   Also, you can make the case that "instant equity" is covered in the first way you're paid, Appreciation.   The reason that we invest in real estate is because there's virtually no other vehicle in the world where you can expect to be paid five ways at the same time.   That’s a foundational principle - it’s a core concept here at GRE.    It’s why we do what we do. It answers the compelling “why” for real estate better than any answer there is…   …and that’s why anything less than a 20 to 25% combined return when you add up all five ways is actually disappointing - and that’s done with low risk - which is paradoxical almost anywhere else in the entire investing world.    If you haven’t yet, take my free “Real Estate Pays 5 Ways” course in order to really understand each of your five distinct profit sources, where they come from, and how that all fits together.    It’s at GetRichEducation.com/Course. The free “Real Estate Pays 5 Ways” short course is free at GetRichEducation.com/Course    Let’s talk about real estate trends.   You know, real estate investing has a lot of relationships that you just wouldn’t expect.    Part of that is because it intersects with the economy. Economies are complex and you get these relationships that are counterintuitive.    For example, in a recession, mortgage rates and all interest rates tend to fall, not rise.    Another exhibit is how debt BUILDS wealth with prudent leverage.   Another one that I’ve explained extensively here and the show and elsewhere is that higher mortgage rates correlate with higher home prices - not lower ones. That throws nearly everyone off.   Some physical real estate trends have been counterintuitive.   About 30 years ago in America - the 1990s - a new trend was fueled that everyone wanted to have a big kitchen.   New homes were often built with a big, fancy kitchen in the center of the home. Open floor concept - no galley kitchens anymore. That began back then.   And this was really the advent of - at the time - what we considered luxury amenities like granite and quartz kitchen countertops.    Anymore, that’s become standard. Even our build-to-rent providers at GRE Marketplace often have new granite countertops in rentals.    But the paradox here is the assumption that a big emphasis on kitchens would mean that more people would start cooking at home.    Oh, no. Just the opposite, in the last 30 years, despite the big kitchens, more people eat out at restaurants and fewer people eat at home. Another real estate paradox.   Another counterintuition was the pandemic. Society locked down, people lost their jobs and you think that there are going to be mass foreclosures because with no job, no one can afford their mortgage payment.   People thought the pandemic will cripple the housing market. Oh, it was just the opposite. That created a housing boom. Everyone wanted their space. Another paradox.   Remember here on the show, shortly after Biden was elected, I told you that this administration - for better or for worse - will not let people lose their homes.    Then we had high inflation on the heels of the pandemic. That was bad for consumers and good for real estate.   But high inflation is supposed to mean that bitcoin and gold would surge. Well, another paradox, that brought crypto winter, and gold did nothing in high inflation, until more recently here.   Rather than high delinquency rates we’ve got low delinquency rates. In fact, the mortgage delinquency rate has been steadily falling for almost 3 years now. That’s because of strong borrowers and tough lending standards.   Now, another real estate investing trend, though there’s nothing paradoxical here, is mortgage rate resets.    Here in the US, on 1-4 unit rental properties, you’re in great shape, whether you locked in your interest rate at 3% or 7% - the thing is that you have a steady payment… and on an inflation-adjusted basis, your same monthly payment amount goes DOWN over time - it’s a tailwind to your personal finances.   Inflation cannot touch your steady, locked-in P & I payment.   But many Canadians are up for renewal with their 5-year fixed rate, 25-year amorts.    Yeah, just across the border in Canada, they don’t have these 30-year fixed rate amortizing loans.    Their rate resets every five years.   One Canadian homeowner that I talked to, he doesn’t live in that posh of a home in Ontario, it’s just a little above the median housing price.    His family’s loan terms are about to reset on the primary residence and it’s expected to increase their monthly payment by $1,280 / mo.   How would you feel if that happened to you overnight? It’s a nuisance at best. It might even crimp your quality of life - or worse.   That can’t really happen to you in the US.    Having a 30-year FRM is like you having rent control as a tenant.    In coastal areas, some tenants that have a rent control deal - New York, California, Oregon - they want to live in their home for decades under rent control because there’s a ceiling on their rent. Move out of their unit - lose the deal and they’d have to reset somewhere else.   It’s the same with you as an American homeowner or REI in the 1-to-4 unit space. Your P&I price cannot rise.    And, I’ve talked about the interest rate lock-in effect before, constraining the housing supply.    Get this. Just last week, First American Title Company informed us that the average resident duration in a home hit a record high.    Amongst this lower intrinsic mobility rate, interest rate lock-in effect, and other societal trends, the average resident duration in a primary home in now 10 years, 8 months.    Lower mobility. Studies show that people are holding onto their cars longer than ever, and people aren’t parting with their real estate either.   So, then, with fewer properties coming to market, let's update the available supply of homes.    This is pulling from the same set of stats that I’ve been citing for years, in order to be consistent. Check this out. This is the FRED Housing Inventory - the Active Listing Count of Available US homes.   Remember, historically, it's 1-and-a-half to 2 million units available. In 2016 it was still 1-and-a-half million.   Then in April of 2020 it dipped below 1 million and fell sharply from there - which I’ve famously called this era’s housing crash.    It was a housing SUPPLY crash - which hedges against a price crash.   It fell to as low as 435,000 a year later in mid-2021. Gosh, under a half million.   It’s rebounded as builders know that they need to build more homes. Six months ago it got up to 750,000 available homes - which is still less than half of what  America needs.   And now, today, did the supply get up toward at least 1 million yet? No.    It has dropped back the other way to just 563,000. This astounding dearth of housing supply - it’s a condition that we could very well be in for over a decade.   This scarce supply is a long-term American condition. Yes, it’s good for your real estate values - both present and future. But it is a problem too. It’s a contributor to homelessness!   The Covid home improvement boom is officially over. So says Home Depot. They posted a revenue drop in the first quarter and warned that annual sales would decline in 2023 for the first time in 14 years.    Home Depot said that shoppers are now holding off on the big-ticket purchases they made during the pandemic and are choosing to break up larger projects—like remodeling a bathroom—into smaller, bite-sized pieces.   There’s a fascinating new study from a bipartisan think tank shows that everyone wants to LIVE ALONE.   That’s what Business Insider just reported on. Now, of course, the term “everyone” is an exaggeration.   But Statista and Our World In Data tells us that - get this - this is the number of SINGLE-PERSON households in the US - people living alone.   Back in 1960, that figure was just a paltry 13%.   By 1970, 17% of households were people were living alone.   Every ten years, that percent crept up to 23, 25, then 26%. By 2010 it hit 27% and by 2022 it hit 29%.   Now, you can’t think that’s good for society - to have all these single-person households. Almost 3 in 10 living alone. C’mon. Find a good spouse.   But in any case, that’s good for you as a REI, when, say, 10 people live amongst 5 homes rather than 3 homes - absorbing all that housing supply and keeping it scarce.     Even if the US population stayed the same, there’s more home demand - with that trend.   Of course, the US population is growing, though really slowly, probably just a few tenths of 1% this year.   But because of all the Millennials and the embedded “Work From Anywhere” trend, housing demand is pretty strong.   The recent rental housing demand and rent boom came almost entirely due to a surge in household formation -- young adults leaving the nest and roommates decoupling to get their own space... especially in urban areas.   People working from home want more space (without a roommate) AND are willing to pay more for it -- and able -- to pay more for it.   So if you're bullish on work-from-home remaining the norm for at least a chunk of the population (and I am), you should be bullish on the rental demand outlook.    And this has really revitalized America’s SUBURBS - that’s the area where you find that space.   The WFH-fueled rise of the suburbs is a wake-up call to cities, where, in the case of NYC, 26 Empire State Buildings’ worth of office space now sits empty.  The typical office worker is spending $2,000–$4,600 less annually in city centers. Because even if they GO to the city to work, they might only do that 2 days a week now - not 5. I’ve got more for you straight ahead, including a new forecast on how much home prices are expected to rise this year.   Again, check out my free video course if you haven’t “Real Estate Pays 5 Ways”. Get it at GetRichEducation.com/Course   I’m Keith Weinhold. You’re listening to Get Rich Education.   Yeah, big thanks to this week’s show sponsors. I’m only bringing you those places that will bring real value to your life.   Now, here at GRE, I recently read an offer that one of these major sports gambling platforms sent us. They want to advertise on the show here.    Do you want to hear sports gambling ads on GRE? I’ve got an opinion about that, that I’ll share with you shortly. Gambling is not the same as investing.    If you’re wondering why you’re hearing more about gambling, especially sports gambling than you had just a few years ago, well…   Now, just last week, it was FIVE years ago that the Supreme Court lifted a federal ban on sports gambling in the US.    That spawned a multibillion-dollar industry that’s transformed how Americans watch, talk about, and experience sports.   Americans bet $95B on sports in legal jurisdictions with consumer protections last year. That’s more money than the amount spent on ride sharing, coffee, or streaming… and you can bet that the off-the-books gambling number, if added in, would make that WAY higher. Two sports betting companies, DraftKings and FanDuel, control 71% of the US market, per gambling analytics firm Eilers & Krejcik. Gosh, that’s almost a duopoly right there. But despite that, these companies have struggled to turn a profit. FanDuel recorded its first quarterly profit just last year, and DraftKings has YET to report a profitable quarter. Well, I’ll just tell ya, it’s one of those two big companies that inquired about advertising on GRE. Of the 50 states, the number is 33 that allow it. That’s 2/3rd of the nation that has legal sports betting (Washington, DC, has it too). Another four states have legalized sports wagering, but don’t have any sportsbooks operating yet. Interestingly, the three most-populous US states—California, Texas, and Florida—have not legalized sports gambling. And they account for 26% of all teams in the major North American pro leagues. The number of women joining sportsbook apps jumped 45% last year, marking the third straight year that new women users exceeded men. Hmmm. I guess that’s the growth market there. My inclination to have gambling advertising and associating with these companies is NOT to do it… not to accept that advertising income. I don’t see how that’s serving you. This feels like a conflict in my gut and in my heart. Gambling is sort of the opposite of investing for a stable rental income stream.  I mean, either way, I guess you’re putting your money at stake. But that’s about the closest common ground I can find.  At least at this time… and probably all-time, it’s a “no” for gambling content here. That’s not any sort of moral judgment on the activity at all. I mean, gosh, as a teenager, I was really into sports gambling, but it was the informal kind. My friend & I each lay a $10 bill next to the TV - Phillies vs. Mets. Winner gets the $20 bucks. So, my inclination is a pretty easy “no”. Hook up with our sponsors - they support GRE. That’s Ridge Lending Group, offering income property loans nationwide. JWB Real Estate Capital - if you want performing income property, JWB really has Jacksonville, FL sewn up & locked down. They do one thing and do it well. Then, Freedom Family Investments. Get started with them for real estate funds that are ultra-low hassle. Text “FAMILY” to 66866.  Where will the next ten years take you & I on the show here? I would love to be along for the ride with you. I hope that you’ll be here with me.   Let me just take a moment to remind you that I’m grateful to have such a large, loyal audience to… well, listen to the words that I say every week. Thank you for your support.   This show has almost reached the 5 million download mark. I’ve been shown that it’s between 4.8 and 4.9 million downloads now. I’m genuinely honored and a little humbled about that even.    Let’s listen in to this 3+ minute CNBC clip. This is Lawrence Yun, Chief Economist at the NAR - the National Association of Realtors talking about the housing market just last week.    Now, a little context here - historically, the NAR has tended to give these dominantly sunny side-up, glowing, everything is always good & getting better kind of remarks on the housing market.   But I’ve been listening to the NAR’s Lawrence Yun for quite a while and think he’s been rather balanced.    Here, he discusses how real estate sales volume is down - which has a lot to do with low supply, that mortgage rates are steady, and that prices are slowly rising in most parts of the nation.   [OK, Vedran. Here’s where we play the insert.]   0:09-3:42 First words to keep are: “Lawrence Yun…” Last words to keep are: “... half of the country.”   https://www.cnbc.com/video/2023/05/17/home-prices-still-rising-despite-sales-dropping-says-national-association-of-realtors-yun.html   Now, Lawrence Yun did go on to say that he thinks that the Fed should lower interest rates by a half point, and more.    Let us know if you’d like us to invite Lawrence Yun onto the show. As always, you can leave your suggestions, questions, or any comments about the Get Rich Education podcast or any of our other platforms at our Contact center at: GetRichEducation.com/Contact   When it comes to national HPA, just last week, we learned that Zillow revised its home price outlook upward.   Between April 2023 and April 2024, Zillow expects home US home values to rise 4.8%.   You’ve got more signs that more & more American markets are being considered a seller’s market rather than a buyer’s market, which tilts toward price appreciation, though I still think pretty moderate price appreciation this year.    CNN recently published an article where they even posited the question: “Are Bidding Wars Back?” Yes, they are in a few markets.     Another measure of housing supply is the MONTHS of available supply. I think you know that 6 to 7 months of inventory is considered a balanced supply & demand market.   If it gets up to 10 months of supply, you tend to see little or no HPA.    Well, indicative of the low housing supply, we hit a winter high of 4-and-a-half months of supply.    And today, it’s down to just 2.7 months per Redfin. 2.7 months. That’s just another sign that demand is outpacing supply.   Then, among those entry-level homes, like the NAR’s Lawrence Yun eluded to, they’re even harder to find… and they’re the ones that make the best rentals.    How hard are these to find? I mean, in some markets this can be even more rare than finding a true friend? Ha!   Is it as rare as the Hope Diamond? Or perhaps a Honus Wagner baseball card? Ha!   Well, the good news is that we actually have the inventory that you want at GRE Marketplace.   Besides that, we actually have something that you really like and that is - mortgage rate relief to help you with your cash flow.    Purchase rates have been hovering around 6 1/2% lately. That’s the OO rate, so for rentals, it could be 7%+.   Well, how about rolling back the hands of time? Through our great relationships here and our free investment coaching, you have access to 4.75% interest rates on investment property - and many of these are new-builds in path-of-progress Florida.   Yes, our free coaching will get you the 4.75% mortgage interest rate, they’ll even help write the sales contract for you if you’re new to this, walk you through the property inspection, the property condition, the appraisal.    Yes, a 4.75% interest rate… today, from these homebuilder buydowns. I don’t know how much longer that can last.    To be clear, you’re not buying an income property FROM us. You’re buying it with our help and our connections. It is all free to you. This is educational support for you.   In fact, our coaching support like this through our sole investment coach, Naresh is becoming so popular, that I can announce that we soon plan to add a second investment coach. Yes! A new one.   And interestingly, you have heard of this soon-to-be second investment coach because they’ve been a guest on the show here a number of times. Yeah, we’ll make that introduction on a future show. You’ll find THAT interesting.   But, our Investment Coach, Naresh, does have some slots open to talk with you and help you out. A lot of the best deals currently with these 4.75% rates are with new-build Florida duplexes and fourplexes.    You can use them for rental SFHs too. Last I checked, the deals were a little better on the duplexes and fourplexes.   You probably thought that Sub-6 and sub-5 mortgage rates are about as unlikely to make a sudden comeback as AOL or Myspace, but we’ve got them here now.    Now, that 4.75% is just one of two options that we have with some Build-To-Rent builders that are fairly motivated. So to review the first one fully… you can get a   4.75% interest rate with a 25% down payment 1 year of free property management and $1,000 off closing costs per deal That’s one. Or, option 2 is: Zero down payment - yes, 100% financing 2 years free property management $1,000 off closing costs per deal Negotiable price, open to offers They are the two options.  It’s rarely more attractive than this. If you hear this in a few weeks, or perhaps months, I doubt that these options will be there any longer.   So I’ll close with something actionable that can really help you now.    If you want to do it yourself, that’s fine, like thousands of others have, get a selection of income property - despite this national dearth of supply at GREmarketplace.com   Or, like I said, right now, it’s really helpful to connect with an experienced GRE Investment Coach - it’s free - our coach’s name is Naresh - for those 4.75% interest rates or zero down program - whatever’s best for you… you can do all that at once at GREmarketplace.com/Coach   Until next week, I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. DQYD!  

Are you living the life that you were created to live? I explore.  People have harbored unfounded real estate fears for years. Here they were: 2012: Shadow inventory 2013: Boomers downsizing 2014: Rates spike 2015: PMI recession 2016: Vacant units 2017: Home prices above pre-GFC peak 2018: 5% mortgage rates 2019: Recession? 2020: Pandemic 2021: Forbearance crisis 2022: Rising rates 2023: Recession US houses prices are heading up this spring. The latest FHFA’s Monthly Housing Report shows 4% national home price appreciation. We explore apartment reputation scores. This is a great proxy for what’s happened in housing the past three years. As an investor, you have a low “loss to purchase” with your tenants. It’s difficult for them to buy their first home. I discuss 12 Ways that you can raise the rent and increase the value of your property. Resources mentioned: Show Notes: www.GetRichEducation.com/449 Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Find cash-flowing Jacksonville property at: www.JWBrealestate.com/GRE Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY’ to 66866 Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  Top Properties & Providers: GREmarketplace.com Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free—text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Keith’s personal Instagram: @keithweinhold Credit to BiggerPockets.com   Welcome to GRE! I’m your host, Keith Weinhold. We get clear together - Are you truly living the life that you were created to live?   A housing market update with some perspective that can totally shift your real estate thought paradigm.    Then, 12 Actionable Ways that you can raise the rent and add value to your property. Today, on Get Rich Education.   Welcome to GRE! From Johannesburg, South Africa to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania and across 188 nations worldwide, I’m Keith Weinhold and this is Get Rich Education.   Last night, people were losing sleep over money. At the same time, last night, you made money… as you slept.   Are you living the life that you were created to live?   Your big ideas, your grandiose hopes and ambitions that you promised yourself that you would follow through on someday… have they turned into fears?   Even ones that you had as a child - like to be an astronaut or a firefighter. Today, it might simply be that you would have quit your soul-sucking job by now.   Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs - how many are you fulfilling? All five? There are five levels. The base level are your… What are you doing to be the most that you can be?    With financial freedom, you can control your time and have a chance at living the life that you were created to live.   How do most people think of financial betterment? In a faulty way, like…   If you get your hair cut at home and brew your own coffee at home, you figure you could save 6 bucks a day.   Hey, Men’s Fast-Pitch Softball at the Moose Lodge is still free. Oh geez. So that’s why it’s your entertainment?   You could save a whopping $80 on flight tickets by adding an extra layover on your trip itinerary.   Or… it’s buy-one-get-one free week on Hillshire Farm brand bacon at the supermarket.   Alright, how do you know that all those things right there don’t move the meter in your life? It’s because, ask:   How many times would you have to do that activity - like add an unnecessary flight layover - in order to acquire wealth?    None. It doesn’t apply. You could practically do that an INFINITE number of times and you wouldn’t acquire wealth to create the time to live the life you want.   But how many times would you need to add a flight layover in order to make you MISERABLE? There IS a number. There is a certain number.   Doing those trivial things only helps ensure that you stay at a soul-sucking job.   Because rather than taking your time - a zero-sum game - rather than HAVING your time engaged in expansionary activities, you were focused on contracting.    You were focused on where there’s a low upside rather than activities that have an upside with no ceiling.   Another way to ask if the activity is expansionary and moving you toward financial freedom is: Did you overcome FEAR in fulfilling that task?   Yes, it’s an inconvenient truth that facing & overcoming fear is what makes you grow.   Did you overcome fear when you brewed coffee at home or got some stupid discount on grocery store bacon?   What are the activities you do that move you toward financial freedom - not debt-freedom - but financial freedom & overcome fear & grow.   That’s an activity like:   Making your first home a fourplex with an FHA loan… or repositioning your dead equity, like Caeli Ridge & I discussed here two weeks ago… or buying an income property across state lines… or learning how to become a savvy private lender… or finding out how to become an accredited investor.   Are you living the life that you were created to live?   Now you’ve got some examples, some milestones, and some checkpoints so that you’ll know if you’re either on the right trajectory - or hopefully - if you’ve been listening here long enough… you’re living that life… now.   Why would you live one more day of your life “below your means” than what’s absolutely necessary. That should only be a short-term life mode.   Don’t live below your means, grow your means.   Live the life that you were created to live.   But the major media channels stir up so much fear - and even niche ones - that it can often paralyze, even some clear thinkers.   Despite the fact that today’s real estate appreciation rates are quite normalized and modestly growing, some people still have unfounded fear over real estate.   And non-doers are always trying to time the market… and timing the market doesn’t work.    Here’s what fearful permabears are concerned about. It’s always something in real estate.    In 2012, it was “Shadow inventory”. Remember that? Never came to pass, just like most of this stuff.   In 2013, the fear was Boomers are downsizing   In 2014: Rates spike   In 2015, it was a PMI recession   In 2016, it was vacant units. Ha! A terrible miss.   In 2017, it was, look, nominal home prices are above the pre-GFC peak. Yeah, so what? They should be.   In 2018, it was 5% mortgage rates. That was the fear.   In 2019, I actually don’t remember what the fear was that year. That was a fairly uniform year but people stirred up fear about something in order to get clicks. Call it a recession.   In 2020, it was the pandemic   In 2021, it was fear of a forbearance crisis.   In 2022, the fear was rising mortgage rates will cause a housing price crash and there’s a collapse in sales volume.   In 2023, what’s the fear? Are we back to recession fears again?    Gosh, people have been steadily forecasting that for 12-18 months now, it still isn’t here, and it still isn’t on the horizon either, as job growth numbers keep beating expectations.    If you’re waiting to invest in the most proven investment of all-time - real estate, or even something else like gold or bitcoin or stocks - if you’re waiting until the uncertainty dissipates, then you’ll never be investing again for the rest of your life.   About the only certain thing in the investing world is persistent inflation and the fact that people are going to need a good place to live.   I invest in the certainties, not get paralyzed with uncertainty.   This way, we don’t get too caught up in the latest investing fad, often like stock investors do.    In 2017, it was anything around “blockchain.” In 2021, it was the “metaverse.” In 2023, “AI” is the term that’s instigated a Pavlovian response from investors salivating over the potential hundreds of billions in value that could be unlocked by the new technology… until that gets oversold. There IS some opportunity in some of those things, but as soon as people lose money in them, they revert back to principles. In a lot of ways, we stick to principles here, even if some of them are countercultural principles - like FF beats DF. Keep your debt & get more of it. More debt means you own more RE.   US house prices have stabilized and are heading up. They've gone from modest declines or steady prices… to modest growth in most regions.   That's the summary from my latest "light reading" duty—FHFA's Monthly Housing Report. It’s released every month.   Some highlights from the latest one, all stats through February, and with nominal pricing… Every division east of the Mississippi is up 5% to 8% annually The Pacific division, which was hurt most, saw a 3% decline National home prices are up 4% And this index covers 400+ American cities Spring numbers will be factored in soon. Since it's property-buying season, appreciation rates will likely rise.   Like I've stated before and am becoming really somewhat known for talking about in the industry. In fact, just last week, I was in Arizona and shared this on Ken McElroy’s show - the housing crash is a 100% certainty. That's because it already happened.    It was a housing supply crash three years ago, which prevented a price crash.   So then, let’s look at some of the best appreciating markets in the US here, just the quick, Top 10.    And notice how widespread the national HPA is. It really just excludes the western third or western quarter of US states.   The market with the 10th most appreciation - and this is all YOY, through Q1 per the NAR:   Santa Fe, NM up 12% 9th is Hickory-Morganton, NC up 12% 8th is Appleton, WI up 12-and-a-half per cent 7th? Milwaukee-Waukesha-West Allis, WI. Up 14%. I’m doing some rounding here. 6th is Oklahoma City, up 15% Elmira, NY - hey I grew up near there - is up 15%. That’s 5th.   4th is Burlington, NC up 15% YOY 3rd is Warner-Robins, GA, up 16%  2nd is Oshkosh-Neenah, WI at 17% #1 in the nation is… the Kingsport-Bristol area, which spans Virginia & Tennessee. Up 19%   I’m going to discuss apartments in a minute. But they are the 10 US areas with the largest single-family home price increase annually.   In the Information Age, a bad reputation will follow you around like your cat, internet tracking cookies, and a song that you can't get out of your head.   Apartment reputation scores are a broad measure of renter satisfaction.   It's amazing to see how closely they track the macro trends that impact tenants and property managers (PMs).   What I’m referencing here is J Turner Research's Online Reputation Assessment scores from today, and going back to March 2020.   This is a very telling pattern here.   Spring - Summer 2020: COVID descends. Lockdowns are here. Reputation scores plummet. PMs struggle to rapidly adjust to a new era where renters live and work inside their units 24/7. Everyone started using Zoom. Maintenance techs could rarely even go inside units for repairs.   Entropy ran rampant. Parents didn't know what to do with their children. Fear reigned. Common spaces closed. Neither tenants nor PMs were happy.   Then, in the…   Fall 2020 - Summer 2021: This was the boom period for apartments. PMs have solved for the new era, adopting new technologies and new strategies. They also re-open amenity spaces and in-unit maintenance.    Hey, foosball in the clubhouse is back. Apartment demand surges, and reputation scores go back up.   Late 2021: Apartment occupancy rates hit record highs. PMs again wrestle with on-site staffing shortages. Could ultra-low vacancy and still-robust leasing traffic put so much strain on property managers that reputation scores start to drop again?   Nope! Because in…   Early 2022: Reputation scores climb back up to new highs again. PMs once again adjust to the rapidly evolving climate, many leaning on early-to-mid phase adoption of centralization tech and management practices.   Mid - Late 2022: Apartment reputation scores inch back again. That’s when consumers saw peak inflation—including renewal rent increases.    At the same time, demand (for all housing types, not just apartments) slowed down and you didn’t see the high rent growth that you had. This puts more strain on PMs.   Inflation hit everyone, with big price hikes in property insurance, taxes, maintenance, turnover, labor, and utilities.   Early 2023: Apartment reputation scores are on the rise again, hitting new highs. Consumer inflation is cooling, while vacancy rates and leasing traffic return to more normal levels.   Some semblance of normalcy has finally returned.   At the same time, new tech adopted in the pandemic era proves to have long-term benefits to both tenants and managers.   In recent years, PMs have focused on resident satisfaction, so it's no coincidence that reputation scores keep improving.   Now today, as an investor, changes are that you have a low LOSS TO PURCHASE.   What’s a “loss to purchase”. Your tenants are leaving to go buy something very often.    You, as an investor in either single-family rentals or condos or apartments - you can retain residents right now because it’s so hard for them to go off and buy their own starter home.   Why’s that? Well, it’s not just the higher mortgage rates. It’s that fact coupled with the fact that credit availability is still tough.    As you know, you need to have a lot of good documentation & income & assets to get a loan. That keeps your rent-paying tenant in place.   In 2005, we were in the opposite condition. Back then, tenants fled my units. I had a hard time retaining tenants in 2005. Why?    Because it was so easy to get a loan, you could just lie about everything on a mortgage application and no one even checked the accuracy. Bloated appraisal values even came flying in.   That’s why my rental property tenants kept leaving. It seems like it was always to buy a first-time condo back in 2005.   Today, you can retain tenants. That’s your upside of today’s harder housing affordability and stringent lending requirements.    So, in this normalizing housing era where tenants have to live in your rental unit longer - because they have no alternative - you can find the properties most conducive to this strategy where thousands of other have created a quick account - at our marketplace: GREmarketplace.com   It’s not like a big box store. It’s more like an organic farmer’s market. That’s where the good stuff is. So, check back often for new inventory at GREmarketplace.com   You’re listening to Episode 449 of the GRE Podcast… and of those 449, I think that two of them were quite good!   Haha!   Coming up shortly, 12 ways for you to raise rent and add value to your property.   If you get value from the show, please tell a friend about the show. I’d really appreciate it. Share it on your social media.   More straight ahead. I’m Keith Weinhold. You’re listening to Get Rich Education.  

The average millionaire has 7 income streams. We discuss 2 income streams today—ATMs and Car Washes. They’re low touch, more passive than turnkey real estate investing. With ATMs, is cash use on the decline? Not among the demographic they serve. We discuss the future of cash use. Some ATM users pay a $3 surcharge to access a $20 bill. That’s why it's profitable. You can buy a unit of five ATMs. They’ve provided a 26.1% cash-on-cash return and high tax advantages. It’s returned $2,262 per month. Learn more about ATMs at: GREmarketplace.com/ATM Car wash profits are enhanced with a subscription model. Few on-site employees are needed.  You can invest alongside a tech-forward car wash franchise, Tommy’s Express Car Wash. The WSJ stated that no business other than car washes can create this much profit on a one acre lot. As society changes, EV, gas-powered, and diesel cars must all go through the car wash. ATMs and car washes demonstrate high operating margins and many tax advantages. You must be an accredited investor. Learn more about car washes at: GREmarketplace.com/CarWash Resources mentioned: Show Notes: www.GetRichEducation.com/448 Learn more about ATMs: GREmarketplace.com/ATM Learn more about Car Wash investing: GREmarketplace.com/CarWash Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Find cash-flowing Jacksonville property at: www.JWBrealestate.com/GRE Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  Top Properties & Providers: GREmarketplace.com Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free—text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Keith’s personal Instagram: @keithweinhold   Speaker 0 (00:00:01) - Welcome to GRE! I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. It's been said that the average millionaire has seven different income streams. We're going to discuss two distinct income streams that you can add to your life today that lie on the periphery of real estate investing. They are low touch for you because they require little or no management. Today on Episode 448 of Get Rich Education.   Speaker 2 (00:00:29) - You are listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.   Speaker 0 (00:00:52) - Welcome to G R E from Altoona, PA to Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold. This is Get Rich Education. Well, you can't have just one income stream because that's entirely too close to zero. We're talking about two distinct income streams today. People really like the operator and his track record. In fact, he's a longtime friend of mine. We'll talk with him shortly next week. Here on the show, I'm gonna talk about the ways that you can raise the rent and add value to your property. But for today, besides the upside that gets many interested in these two income streams, most investments usually have pros and cons. So I'm gonna ask about the downside. In both, we're talking about the ability to add a couple thousand dollars to your residual income each month with the first of two income streams.   Speaker 0 (00:01:51) - ATMs, yes, automated teller machines. Remarkably, the operator has never missed the monthly distribution or the pro forma return target. What about the future use patterns of cash? Yes. Green dollar bills. We will discuss that. It seems as though ATMs just don't care when there's disruption and chaos in the marketplace. They just sit there, do their business and provide you with consistent monthly cash flow. We'll discuss exactly how much inflation, not a big deal to ATMs recession, they can deal with that. Pandemic ATMs breezed right through it. Is the use of cash in decline? Well, not with the demographic that ATMs serve. How about the political party in power? That just doesn't matter in fact, and perhaps is a little sad. The demographic that ATMs serve is one of the fastest growing in the United States to this group, cash is still the currency of choice. Some of them are unbanked or underbanked. First, we'll talk about ATMs then after that, another diverse income stream for you.   Speaker 0 (00:03:07) - What's it like to invest in ATMs and car washes and what's the direction of their future use patterns, for example, wouldn't cash use with ATMs B declining perhaps? Well, today's guest expert recently spoke about ATM and carwash investing at the Best Ever conference as alternative asset classes that can perform well over the next decade. And when he was finished speaking, there was a line formed at the back door waiting for him so that people could learn more. So settle in. Let's learn about what's happening. I'd like to welcome back onto the show, g r e, regular and super syndicator, Dave Zuck.   Speaker 3 (00:03:43) - Keith, thanks for having me back on your show. It's good to be back and I'm looking forward to having this discussion. I love it.   Speaker 0 (00:03:50) - Well, Dave, you know you've been here to discuss ATMs and car washes before, so we wanna get updates today, including what investor returns are like starting with ATMs. Really, that is a predominant thought about ATM investing today. It's that the use of this new technology like Apple Pay or coming cbd, CS, or even cryptocurrencies, are gonna cause cash use to decline. And I know that when you were here previously, we talked about year over year cash use and how that looks. So is that a question that you often get about just the use of cash that an at m spits out?   Speaker 3 (00:04:24) - Yeah, so one of the challenges to the ATM space in investor's minds in accredited investor's minds is, well, I don't use cash anymore. I'm guessing you don't use much cash anymore. I don't hardly ever use cash, right? And so that must mean that other people aren't using cash. That is the same as an investor thinking, well, I don't live in a C-class apartment building, so I guess nobody invests in C-class apartment buildings, right? So one of the things yes, is cash use in decline. The answer is yes to our peer group. But when you consider the fact that our demographic, who we serve, what I'm saying, saying our peer group, I'm talking about you and I, Keith and probably everybody who's listening to this show, we use last cash and we did three years, five years, 10 years, 20 years ago. Sure. Okay. But that demographic of people that we serve is one of the largest, one of the fastest growing groups in this country.   Speaker 3 (00:05:22) - It's when you really look at the facts. Look back in the early nineties, the Wall Street Journal, there's already a Wall Street Journal that talk about the death of cash. By the end of the nineties, cash wasn't gonna be around anymore. When I started, when I got in the ATM space 12 years ago, the kind of the talk on the street was, yeah, but you got Apple Pay and the Google Wallet and you got all these, this stuff coming on, cash is gonna be dead in two to three years from now. And the fact is, there's more than doubled the amount of currency and circulation today than there was 12 years ago. There's more currency in circulation today than any time in human history. And the peer group who we serve, the demographic who we serve, uses cash and almost transacts entirely in cash. And that's not going away. We've seen that increase. We've done a lot of market research, we see what's going on, but then we also see what's going on inside our own funds and how people are behaving. It's still a vibrant market.   Speaker 0 (00:06:14) - Yes. And you and I have discussed before how some businesses and jurisdictions have tried to ban cash use, but those bans were repealed and it was brought back that you're able to use cash. And you brought up such a brilliant analogy. You as an investor out there, you might be interested in investing in a C-class apartment building, even though if you would do that, you'd probably be less likely to live in one. So yes, a lot of times you're with your circle of friends, you're in your peer group and you tend to think like they do and everyone lives just like you do. But when we talk about different demographic groups from people that you usually hang out with, one reason I've learned through dealing with you over the years, Dave, is that ATMs are so lucrative for ATM investors because this is going to seem incomprehensible to you, the educated listener, but many ATM users pay two to $3 just to get access to a $20 bill. Imagine paying $3 to get access to a $20 bill. And you're thinking, well, who would do that? No one that I hang out with would do that. That's 15% of 15% surcharge to go ahead and access your own money. But yeah, I mean that's one reason why these people are financially disadvantaged, but that's why it's lucrative.   Speaker 3 (00:07:29) - Yeah. And for those people it's a way of life. And when you look at how a person's wage or ACH today, somebody works at a factory, their paycheck gets ACH right into their account. They transact in a lot of cash. You know, it saves them for two or $3. It saves them from getting in a car. Some of 'em don't even have a car or getting in into public transit and going down the road to a, the neighborhood bank where they bank at and then stand in line at a in front of a teller on a Friday night and to try and get, you know, 20, $5,000 in cash. You know that two or $3 to go down to the corner of convenience store. That's pretty inexpensive. But you're right. I mean, there's people who will pay two or $3 to get a $10 bill or $20 bill. It's just crazy.   Speaker 0 (00:08:18) - Now Dave just gave an excellent example because some people might think, are you taking advantage of these people? You're actually helping serve these people and give them an option? And one thing that I know that you really prioritize doing, Dave, with these a t m investments you've been helping people with for years where they can come invest alongside of you, is that for your physical at m locations, you choose high foot traffic areas.   Speaker 3 (00:08:44) - You've heard the saying, what's the three most important things about real estate and its location, location, location. Even more so in this investment because at its core this is a real estate investment. You're monetizing a two foot by two foot piece of real estate and you may be taken at two foot by two foot piece of real estate to its highest and best use. So you're monetizing that piece of real estate. But no, you're adding real value in a community and and serving a community, but it's a real estate play.   Speaker 0 (00:09:15) - Now if you are the listener and the viewer out there, if you think cash is going to disappear completely in say seven years, well then you probably wouldn't be interested in investing in something like this. But the more you read and the more you learn, the more you're gonna be informed on that. So talk to us a little bit more about the future of payments. Dave,   Speaker 3 (00:09:35) - You mentioned a seven year contract and that's what this is. It's a seven year deal. But when you consider the tax impact plus the first 12 months of cash flow and that first 12 months, you're getting about 60 to 70% of your principle back in that first 12 months from the time your cash flow starts, you're getting that first year's tax deduction, 80% right on the front end. You're getting about 60 to 70% of your principal back in that first 12 months. And then you've got an extra six years of cash flow behind that. So although it's a seven year deal, it's not like you have your money at risk for seven years. You get your money at risk count, the tax impact, you got your money at address for less than three years. It becomes a, not only is it a a really good cashflow and income stream play and you can start really beefing up your monthly cash flow, but it's also a tax plan. It's one of the ways that I keep myself tax efficient. You know, it's, you use that big chunk of depreciation in year one and you start getting yourself to the point where you're living the tax efficient life you start gaining on your wealth building journey. You can get momentum quick when you start applying some of those principles and using that depreciation offset, the tax liability and some other income.   Speaker 0 (00:10:52) - We're talking about how investors get 80% bonus depreciation right there at the beginning of a seven year hold time. And Dave, is there a specific number of ATMs that a specific investor owns?   Speaker 3 (00:11:08) - One unit is considered five or six ATMs and it matter, you know, it depends on what kind and sort of location. There's some ATMs that have dual monitors and there's two people using 'em at the same time. So it really depends on, on what ATM that is. But you're talking five or six ATMs for one unit. One unit is $104,000. We do sell half units now. So you can come in as low as $52,000, but that's how it works. You buy a unit of ATMs, you put 'em in our fund, we manage the fund for you, and you get a portion of that surcharge revenue. This is sort of a three-way split. You got the investor getting about a third of the income or 30% of the income. You get the store owner or the the location owner about roughly 30% of the income. And then you got the management company, which is where all the costs flow through. You get the management company getting about 40% of that income. So it's sort of a three-way split, but you're getting as close to the asset as you possibly can get without owning at yourself. And so you're just buying the units, you're paying us to manage them for you and making it totally passive.   Speaker 0 (00:12:18) - As Dave and I have talked about on a previous show, people use ATMs for more than just accessing cash. There are more use cases than just accessing cash. But Dave, when we get back to the numbers and we talk about why you have so many repeat investors that have invested in a lot of ATMs with you years ago and wanna come back and do this more. And that is because this is a cash flow centric investment besides being tax advantaged. However, you as an investor, you shouldn't expect much appreciation on your six or so ATMs that you hold for this seven year or so hold period. Those things are almost fully depreciated in value by the end of your hold period. But this is a tax efficient, cash flow centric investment. So Dave, tell us more about how that looks for the investor, because I know this is actually a highly predictable income stream for investors.   Speaker 3 (00:13:08) - It is highly predictable. We've never missed our monthly distribution payments. Yeah. And we've never missed our proforma and so highly predictable. And the depreciation, the way the depreciation works is it, it really you invest, you get that depreciation, you can use it to offset some other income and you got two choices. You can keep your income stream coming from your ATMs. You can keep that tax free for the first couple years or you can use that even more aggressively. You can use that depreciation, go off and and use it to offset the tax liability on some other income. At the end of the day, it's about living the tax efficient life down and getting out of those high tax brackets, getting out of that 37% tax bracket, moving yourself down into the twenties and the teen   Speaker 0 (00:13:58) - Reducing your marginal income tax bracket with offsets from this investment. People really celebrate your track record. Tell us about those cash on cash returns and just about that income stream that one has historically gotten.   Speaker 3 (00:14:14) - The cash on cash return is uh, right around 26. I think it's 26.1% cash on cash return. Yeah, the IRR is a bit lower. It's uh, right around a 20% i r r. And so you mentioned it earlier about how an at t m machine really actually does depreciate, like, and I'll give you sort of the analogy when you do, when you take depreciation against, let's say a multi-family apartment building and let's say 10 years down the road, you sell that multi-family apartment building for a gain, you not only pay tax on the gain, you also recapture all of that depreciation that you've used and, and now you get taxed on that as well. So it's very different in an at t m investment. In an at m investment, you don't recapture the depreciation, you get a tax break and that depreciation, you never recapture that. So you really need to almost count that into your total return because that affects your bottom line, that affects your tax impact and you never recapture it. And so you'll notice unlike brick and mortar where normally your cash and cash return is lower and your IRR is higher because you get that residue from sale here, it's flip flopped just totally different. And then you get a higher cash on cash return, a lower i r, but it's because of the loss of value of your equipment over that seven year period   Speaker 0 (00:15:36) - In real estate, when you relinquish a property and sell it, unless you do a 10 31 tax deferred exchange, yes you have to pay back the depreciation that you were writing off all of those years. You don't have that obstacle, you don't have that problem with ATMs. And yes, you typically hear about IRRs, which all call synonymously total rate of returns in your real estate as being higher than what your cash on cash return is. But here, this is inverted. This is a cash flow centric investment. And part of the reason why is because your machines, they do go down in value over time. Why your cash flow stays at a steady high rate, 26.1% in this case,   Speaker 3 (00:16:16) - It's been a fun asset class. And it's interesting, you know, you talk about how the depreciation works and you try to introduce somebody who's not real savvy on the tax side. You talk about how it works and how it will affect them, and then they see it on their tax return. It's like, oh my goodness, yeah that works. Like you said, I'm like, oh, well yeah, it becomes part of many of my investors' tax planning on an annual basis. It is part of my annual tax planning. And so it becomes one of those things where it's just easy to start kind of collecting 'em and, and making it sort of an annual thing where you just collect more at t ATM machines, keep yourself tax efficient and and really start building those massive income streams.   Speaker 0 (00:16:57) - Well, you can learn more and get ahold of the proforma and learn more about ATM performance and the projected future use patterns and how to get started as investor if this interests you at gre marketplace.com/atm. Dave, thanks for the great update on ATMs.   Speaker 3 (00:17:15) - All right, thanks Keith.   Speaker 0 (00:17:17) - You listening to get rich education. We've got more with Dave when we come back on car washes. Why they're so lucrative, especially when you add a subscription model. I'm your host Keith Wein. Hold with JWB real Estate Capital. Jacksonville Real Estate has outperformed the stock market by 44% over the last 20 years. It's proven to be a more stable asset, especially during recessions. Their vertically integrated strategy has led to 79% more home price appreciation compared to the average Jacksonville investor. Since 2013, JWB is ready to help your money make money, and to make it easy for everyday investors, get started@jwbrealestate.com slash g rre. That's JWB real estate.com/g rre GRE listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS 40 2056. They've provided our tribe with more loans than anyone. They're truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four plexes. So start your pre-qualification and you can chat with President Chaley Ridge personally though even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio. start@ridgelendinggroup.com.   Speaker 4 (00:18:44) - This is the Real Wealth Networks Kathy, Becky, and you are listening to the Always Valuable Get Rich Education with Keith Wine Hole.   Speaker 1 (00:19:04) - Welcome   Speaker 0 (00:19:04) - Back to Get Risk Education. Car washers are a remarkably lucrative real estate business. It's enhanced with a franchise model and selling subscriptions to car wash customers. That's how you get that recurring revenue. So a rainy week doesn't wash out your profits. In fact, in the Wall Street Journal it recently said, and I quote what they wrote here, there is no other operation on a one acre site that can do one to two and a half million dollars in sales and pocket half of that. So our guest expert, Dave, is back because he helps you get investment returns without having to actually operate the car wash yourself. So Dave, tell us more. I know for example, much like other real estate location of a car wash is vital   Speaker 3 (00:19:53) - Even more so with this type of car wash because the whole system is set up to get you a quality wash in two to three minutes. It's designed to get you off the road and back on the road in less than three minutes. So if you can put a really good product like this carwash, everybody that I've ever talked to, whether it's a franchisee, an owner, a a subscription customer or a one-time user, everybody gives Tommy's express carwash a giant thumbs up. It's about volume and you put that on a busy street corner or you know, there's all kinds of metrics that we like and you know, it's, you gotta be where people are already going. You're not creating a an environment where you're drawing people to somewhere you want to. It's all about creating habits. On a Monday morning, my wife gets in her car and she, about eight 15 in the morning, she goes down to Wegmans about a 15 minute drive.   Speaker 3 (00:20:50) - And I promise you if you would introduce her to Tommy's and she would get a car wash when she goes to Wegmans on that Monday morning, she would do that two or three times. She'd be a customer for life. Like she now created a habit kind of like a Starbucks creating a habit. So what we're doing is we're putting this asset in a really good location. Recreating an environment where you don't have to wait in line for 10, 15 minutes, five minutes, get your car wash. It's not one of those white glove people wiping your, it's automated. You get a really good quality wash in two to three minutes. You can get in and out quick.   Speaker 0 (00:21:26) - You help partner investor money with a model that's proving itself with the Tommy's Carwash Express franchise like you just mentioned. So technology really adds the efficiency of getting cars through the carwash quickly in order to make this more lucrative. And Tommy's is very tech forward. For example, I know that customers buy subscriptions and they typically use a phone app   Speaker 3 (00:21:52) - To the point of technology and efficiency. You know, you're talking, especially over the last three years now, what was one of the top concerns or one of the top challenges for employers was getting good quality people. I mean look no further when you go to busy restaurant and you know, I mean there there was some real challenges in finding good employees. One of the things, you know, and then this is due to some of the technology that you just mentioned. You know, we got, because of the systems and technology, we can run two to 300 cars per hour through the scar wash to get washed and maybe even better you can do that with two to three people on site. So very limited overhead in terms of wages employees, you can pay those employees much better because you don't have like 30 of 'em, you got three of 'em. And so really the whole business model, and it also comes back to what you shared earlier about the operating margins. You got 45 to 50% operating margins in this business. It's in terms of percentage, it's one of the most lucrative businesses that I know of and it's just fun business to be involved in.   Speaker 0 (00:23:00) - Yeah. Now when you talk about moving two to 300 cars per hour through a car wash, are you talking about, you know, physically we think of a car wash Now are we talking about one long tunnel with the rate like that? Or are we talking about multiple bays?   Speaker 3 (00:23:16) - Normally it's one long tunnel and the longer the tunnel, the more you can, you know, there's different speeds that you know the track will take you through. And there's different things inside the carwash you can activate depending on how busy, I mean it, it really is. They're real car wash nerves. I mean they're techies and it, they really did perfect this product to the point where let's say you have a 100 car wash hour where you're putting a hundred cars through in an hour and now now you get into the busy time where it's, you know, people are getting off of work where it, now you're ramping up to two to 300 cars per hour. The speed varies on the track and it's, you know, different features of inside the tunnel kind of kick in because of the volume. So there's a lot of automation, a lot of technology going on inside the wash   Speaker 0 (00:24:02) - As society changes, you know, whether it's a gasoline powered car or it's an EV or it's diesel, they all need to go through the car wash. We're talking about that rate at which cars get washed, which is actually pretty important because if I'm a car wash customer, you're talking about your wife's habits earlier with washing her car. If I think about getting my car washed, but I see a long line over there, why might not even go in and use that car wash. And then I'll start to think, oh well what good is my subscription? So keeping that wash tunnel moving also keeps the line short besides increasing your rate of income.   Speaker 3 (00:24:37) - Yeah, for sure. And there is, you know, talking about subscriptions, we're not all about subscriptions, but there's kind of a sweet spot and we figured out that sweet spot's somewhere into 55, somewhere between 50 and 60%. It's where you really want your subscription numbers to be. You don't want 100% subscription model. If you were at 90%, that means your subscription model, you're not priced right. Almost like charging $500 a month for your apartment building and you're always a hundred percent occupancy. It's not good.   Speaker 0 (00:25:09) - It's a problem. Not   Speaker 3 (00:25:10) - Joking. Yeah, that is a problem. Yeah. So that's sort of the things we're watching. We do want a nice mix of retail customers. We think kind of that sweet spots in that 50 to 60% subscription model range.   Speaker 0 (00:25:22) - Oh that's a great point. And that's really interesting when you think about business models and a lot like apartment buildings, car washes are based on their income stream amount, but you're gonna have a different set of expenses with a car wash than you will. And apartment building of course, like you're going to have expenses for example, for water and detergent. Dave spoke a bit about how they keep the labor costs down by having fewer people on site, largely through the use of technology. So we're talking about an innovative car wash type here that's proven itself. Tommy's expressed car wash, their footprint geographically just keeps expanding and expanding and expanding. And in fact Dave, I know when we talked about this last year at least, that that time only Panera Bread in Chick-fil-A, they were the only two franchises that had higher sales revenue per location. Wow.   Speaker 3 (00:26:11) - We're at number three and we're hoping to get to number two here in short order. But, uh, chick-fil-A, that's a hard one to beat , but uh, yeah, no, it's uh, one of the top performing franchises in the anti our country,   Speaker 0 (00:26:24) - Chick-fil-A. Those two crucial pickles on that chicken sandwich. You know, it's, it's really hard to, to compete with there. You need a really efficient car wash to outdo that as far as it is on the investment end and how that actually looks like for one that wants to come alongside you and participate. Before we talk about what the returns look like, talk a a bit about how that is looking for current investors that are already in this investment. Since we first discussed this last year,   Speaker 3 (00:26:52) - We launched this fund as a debt fund. We got into it fairly slowly. We were building a couple washes and we knew that it was gonna ramp up, but we had a lot of work to do on the front end. We were, we had lots that were under contract that we were working on permitting. So we started as a debt fund. We launched phase two as sort of a semi equity, I mean it was an equity fund but it, it sort of captain investor 1.75. You got all the depreciation. The depreciation was not, you didn't have to recapture the depreciation cuz you're dealing with a lot of equipment. In fact, car washes are very unique in that you can take bonus depreciation on the building as if it were equipment. Like you don't need cost sake studies, you don't need you just bonus depreciation the thing out like, you know, the entire building, like it was a piece of equipment right up front.   Speaker 3 (00:27:39) - First year, that's rare. Yeah. And then we sort of ran through that model and we have eight operational sites today. We have seven more coming outta the ground right now. We expect to be somewhere around 20, uh, fully operational by the end of the year. And here's the exciting part, here's the fun part. We're we're looking to build a hundred of these in five years. Wow. And so to really ramp up and take us, get us into phase three and phase two worked great. Investors got all the depreciation, they got all of the cash flow. I'm working free by the way. They got all of the cash flow until they get to their 1.75 and then they exit, then the GP partners start making money. But that model why it worked very good and it's gonna get us to about 30 ish car washes. We're ramping up.   Speaker 3 (00:28:33) - We wanna go under and we're retooling our model. Now that we've uh, got a little bit of experience under our belt, we see how our operations team is operating and see how these car washes are really taken off and really how our team has made these things perform. We want to go to a hundred and to get to a hundred, we're retooling the model. Our investors have spoken. They said, man, we really wanna be, you know, a little bit, kind of give some of that backside you talked about the Wall Street Journal article on Wall Street Journal came out and said that there's PE firms paying 18 to 20 x multiples on EBITDAs and it's just super aggressive. So our investors like to hear that, but they wanted a piece of the upsides. We listened to our investors, okay, we're rolling out an equity model.   Speaker 0 (00:29:19) - And just to back up to jump in. So Dave had been talking about the debt side about how previously this was a raise on the debt side and now in the future going forward, this is how you can get in on the equity side investment of car washes.   Speaker 3 (00:29:32) - It is an equity model and it's gonna allow the investors, it's gonna allow all of our investors to not only be a part of the backend, but there's gonna be a 10% preferred return. There's gonna be aggressive cash flow throughout the hold and the exit. Um, investors gonna be with us all the way through and be a part of that upside, be a part of the exit.   Speaker 0 (00:29:54) - Talk to us about any of the threats that might be out there, whether that's threats to just the overall model of car washes five, 10 or 20 years down the road, and then what the competition is like Tommy's expressed car wash versus other car washes. What are some of the threats   Speaker 3 (00:30:10) - We've seen, much like our investors have spoken and expressed their desires to be a part of the upside and we're getting ready to rule that out to 'em. The general public has given their opinion, uh, with their wallets. And so when you get to understand this model and, and how it works, and then you start paying attention to a lot of the other car washes out there and the look and appearance and how they work. And it takes longer and there's lines and you know, some of 'em are full service and you know, it's pretty inconsistent, but consumers have spoken and they want this product and Tommy's kind of the innovative leader in the car space. And so they're really all about just listening to the consumer and get them what they want. Consumers want a good quality wash for a fair price and they want to get it quickly and efficiently. And that's what we're delivering. So there's competition in the space. There's only one or two competitors of ours who we would say, okay, they are there so we're not building across the street. There's not really a need for us to be there if there's that competitor is there. But most of our competitors, if we were to put a Tommy's Express in a neighborhood, we would steal the show and we have what consumers want and they'll come to us.   Speaker 0 (00:31:30) - When I think about long-term use patterns, Dave, just anecdotally I think of my own lifespan, I only seem to notice more car washes in cities as time goes on per capita. Not fewer. In fact, growing up my dad used to wash his car by hand in or right next to the garage or old Subaru legacy station wagon. Sometimes I would help him out. Well, he doesn't wash it anymore. It's more efficient to go drive through a car wash. That almost seems to be a vestige of yester year where you would regularly wash your own car in your driveway.   Speaker 3 (00:32:02) - Well there's two things there. One is there's a lot more people live in an apartment buildings and, and less out in the country in suburbia. So the, even having the ability to wash your car in some places doesn't make sense. But there's another thing too. You know that by the time I started regularly using a car wash where I actually had to pay some organization to wash my car, I could have bought the car wash . Now, I mean you see it all the time. You got teenagers who's got a nice vehicle and they don't even think twice. They're going through and spending eight or 10 or 15 bucks to wash their car. And I was like, oh my goodness. Okay. But times are changing and it's becoming a standard thing to get your car wash, your car wash and forget the garden hose and the bucket and the soap,   Speaker 0 (00:32:43) - The carwash I use most regularly, the highest tier one now costs $18. That's where they use, you know, rain X on the windshield and everything else. But as far as when it comes to the investor perspective, this is one of those investments, Dave, where you recently spoke at the conference that people are lining up at the back of the room to want to learn more because they're so interested in this investment. I know oftentimes car washes have high cash flow and high tax efficiency for the investors. So tell us about how that's expected to look here On the equity side,   Speaker 3 (00:33:13) - You get a hundred percent bonus appreciation over five years. You get a big chunk of that in the first year because of the amount of development that we have in the fund, you're getting less than half of it the first year, around half of it, maybe just a little bit less than half of it the first year. So you get a big chunk of your depreciation in year one and then you get the rest of the depreciation and it's four years following that. It's a pretty aggressive on the depreciation side. But then on the cash flow side, 10% preferred returns. You've got multiples that are in the two and a half to three x in five to seven years, you're talking aggressive returns and you're talking aggressive, uh, bonus depreciation for tax impact,   Speaker 0 (00:33:57) - You need to be an accredited investor. And what's the minimum investment?   Speaker 3 (00:34:02) - So minimum investment is a hundred thousand dollars and you do need to be an accredited investor.   Speaker 0 (00:34:07) - Tell us about the expected hold time.   Speaker 3 (00:34:09) - We're modeling it five to seven years. So while a private equity firm and with Sam some pretty lucrative offers already, but we've seen, let me back up a second. So this industry is so fragmented that the biggest player in the room has accounts for about 5% of the global revenue. Wow. So that's how fragmented this space is. So there's real opportunity and institutions are desperately trying to get their foot in the door because they see that it's a recession resistant business. They see that it's a, it's got strong operating margin. The Wall Street Journal talked about that where, you know, just crazy operating margin. So they're desperately trying to get their foot in the door and get a foothold in the space and get a little traction in the space. They're not hardly any people who they can write a hundred million checks to. We're building a portfolio that somebody would be able to write a billion dollar check for in a couple years. And so when that happens, we feel like the more mature this space, the more mature this portfolio is, the more cream we can squeeze out for our investors. And so that's where we're going with it. We don't believe that we exit in two to three years, but it could happen. But we're modeling out for five to seven years   Speaker 0 (00:35:30) - In case it takes that long to Sure. Get returns on the conservative side, five to seven years. And yeah, I, I learned a little something there. Okay. The biggest player in the space only has about a 5% share. Very fractured, much like real estate itself is well day's, one of our G R E marketplace providers, you probably already know that. So if you wanna learn more, I'd encourage it and see what makes this business so lucrative. You could do that at gre marketplace.com/carwash. Dave, it's really been stimulating to think about some of these alternative real estate investments. Thanks so much for coming back onto the show.   Speaker 3 (00:36:07) - Thanks Rob me Keith. It was fun   Speaker 0 (00:36:15) - On the ATMs with 100 4K invested that has recently generated $2,262 per month, 2262. And they've never missed the monthly distribution or their proforma return target. And if you go invest quite a bit more than that amount, there is something new to announce. And that is the existence of financing with ATM investments that has the potential to amplify your return some more. So with ATMs, it's a strong cash on cash returns and the I R R along with the quick return of capital, that's what's making it so popular. They have been delivering them to this group for more than a decade now. Now the operator, Dave, he's really proud of what they're doing and that's why he wants to give the opportunity for you to get on the ground in person and see just what they're doing. In fact, in only 10 days, there's a car wash and self storage investor tour.   Speaker 0 (00:37:19) - Yes, it is a one day investor tour on May 18th in Columbia, South Carolina. And you are invited. You'll see a Tommy's Express carwash and Moore meet the team, ask questions about the business plan. There is no cost to attend. You can meet Dave there as well. You'll learn more about that and with hotel accommodations and everything else after you get the free investor report. At G R E Marketplace, we're talking about world class operators in the car wash space here. When you have multiple diverse income streams in your life, what you've done is you've made your income resilient. So to connect more and learn more and see proformas on adding an income stream to your life in the at m space, if that interests you, start@gremarketplace.com slash atm. For car washes, visit gre marketplace.com/wash. Until next week, I'm your host Keith Wein. Hold. Don't quit your daydream.   Speaker 5 (00:38:27) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial, or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education L L C exclusively.   Speaker 6 (00:38:55) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich education.com.

Learn how to harvest equity without giving up your low, fixed-rate mortgage. Today, I discuss: conventional loans for single-family rentals, DTI, refinancing, accessing equity, student loan debt, and down payment requirements for income properties with Ridge Lending Group President, Caeli Ridge. Learn what’s better for a second mortgage—the pros and cons of a HELOC vs. Home Equity Loan. You also get a mortgage market overview. We discuss changes in cash-out refinance seasoning requirements.  Caeli also describes where she believes mortgage rates are headed later this year. Resources mentioned: Show Notes: www.GetRichEducation.com/447 Ridge Lending Group: www.RidgeLendingGroup.com info@ridgelendinggroup.com Join us for tomorrow’s free GRE Florida properties webinar: www.GREwebinars.com Ridge’s All-In-One Loan Simulator: https://ridgelendinggroup.com/aio-simulator/ Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Find cash-flowing Jacksonville property at: www.JWBrealestate.com/GRE Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  Top Properties & Providers: GREmarketplace.com Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free—text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Keith’s personal Instagram: @keithweinhold   Speaker 0 (00:00:00) - Welcome to GRE! I'm your host Keith Weinhold. You can get a conventional loan for a single family rental with less than a 20% down payment. Learn why you might want to refinance today. Even though mortgage rates aren't as low as they were a couple years ago, how do you qualify for loans if you've already got student loan debt? All things mortgages and financing today on Get Rich Education, Speaker 2 (00:00:29) - You are listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.   Speaker 0 (00:00:52) - Welcome to GRE from K Patis North Carolina to Hattiesburg, Mississippi and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold. This is Get Rich Education, the voice of real estate investing since 2014. Before we get into a great education on all things mortgages today, there is still a little bit of time left for you to join us on tomorrow night's G R E Live event. You can join us from the comfort of your own home. This is for new build single family rentals, opt to four plexes in Jacksonville, Ocala, and elsewhere in Florida. Purchase prices are still below 300 K on the single families. Yes, still in the two hundreds in some cases. I don't know how long that can last. Yeah, these are the property types that are quickly vanishing. Our investment coach Naresh Stars in that event tomorrow, he finds you the good deals with the national providers that are actually giving incentives despite the fact that the product that you're buying is in really short supplies.   Speaker 0 (00:01:59) - You're gonna get a good, solid, fundamental education on what makes a durable income property market and a arrest in the Florida provider are going to share with us just for webinar attendees. Those even better than two and two incentives. Yes, for you, the incentives on the webinar are even better than that 2% of your purchase price paid do you in closing costs cash and 2% of free property management. It is going to be even better than that. That's gonna be rolled out tomorrow night, May 2nd at 8:30 PM Eastern, 5:30 PM Pacific. It is free to attend. You can ask questions live, get your questions answered and get access to the actual properties should you so choose. That is the final reminder. So if that's of any interest to you, be sure to sign up now@grewebinars.com. I'm coming to you from the Mojave Desert today here in metro Las Vegas.   Speaker 0 (00:03:04) - It's Henderson Nevada. To be technical next week I'll bring you the show from Phoenix, Arizona. And you know what? It's kind of funny. Sometimes you hear people refer to this general area of the nation this southwest and they say they are going to the desert if they were doing what I'm doing. Well this unrepentant geography nerd will clarify that it is the deserts plural. Yes, Las Vegas is in the Mojave Desert in Phoenix is in the Sonora Desert. There are differences in vegetation type and others that distinguish the two. And the most obvious difference perhaps is the presence of the big iconic Saguaro cactus down in the Sonora that you don't find up here in the more northerly Mojave and perhaps the Joshua tree is the more distinct plant type here in the Mojave. Yes, we're talking about two gigantic pieces of real estate here. Much of it is baron. Two disparate deserts with their own distinctive flora and fauna. As you're about to learn about financing real estate today, let's remember that there is a cash out refinance and then generally if you're performing a refinance without pulling cash out, that is known as a rate and term refinance. Let's get into it.   Speaker 0 (00:04:30) - Well hey, well how do you qualify for more mortgage loans at the lowest interest rate available, Americans have near record equity levels in their homes. What's the best way to access that equity yet keep your low mortgage rate in place? And what about your student loan debt and how that factors into you getting a mortgage or getting a refinance? We're answering all that today with a GRE regular guest and though it's her first appearance back on the show this year, it's the return of the company president that's created more financial freedom through real estate than any other lender in the entire nation, Ridge Lending Group. It's time for a big welcome back to Caeli Ridge.   Speaker 3 (00:05:08) - Keith Wein. Hold. Thank you. You flatter me sir. I appreciate it. Love being here with you and for your listeners.   Speaker 0 (00:05:14) - Well yes, the president is back and everyone loves this type of president because it's not about being a Democrat or Republican. So hail to the chief, great to have you here. And Jaylee mortgage rates, they have settled down a good bit from their recent highs now they peaked back in the fall of last year. So with that and some of the other things in mind, why don't you talk to us about the big picture first, sort of your mortgage market overview.   Speaker 3 (00:05:40) - Interest rates is always top of mind for everybody. I think they're doing pretty well. I do believe I've been sharing with our listeners and and my clients on a day-to-day. I do believe that rates will continue to kind of increase here and there. There's gonna be some ups and downs. Of course the Fed has been very clear with us. Jerome Powell is gonna continue to raise the Fed fund rate just for anybody that doesn't know the two between a mortgage rate and a Fed fund rate while connected, not the same thing. So when they raise that does not automatically mean that we see the increase on the the 30 year mortgage bonds. I think that that's gonna continue to happen, but I think the pace in which it happens or continues to happen is gonna be a lot less aggressive. So I think that's gonna bode well overall.   Speaker 3 (00:06:21) - For interest rates. I know everybody is very, very interested in in are they going up, are they going down, when are they going up, when are they going down? I think that we'll continue to see a little bit of upward movement. I think it's gonna be sometime next year that we start to see interest rates come back down in any meaningful way. And remember gang rates go up much, much faster than they come back down unfortunately. So I think we've got a little bit of way to go. But I'm always the one saying, Keith, you and I have talked about this, um, many, many times you must be doing the math and that the rate as a function of the return of the investment isn't the most important thing. So I'll leave it there for rates. Otherwise, I think that the industry is doing really, really well.   Speaker 3 (00:06:58) - One big announcement that we had this year was that Fannie and Freddie both have extended the seasoning period of time to where a cash out refinance when leverage was used to acquire is applicable. So now you have to wait 12 months to pull, to pull cash out of a property using the A R V that after repair value if you use leverage to acquire the property. Quick distinction because this has been confused. If you paid cash for the property, your source and season funds, that still falls under what's called the delayed cash out refi and no seasoning is required. It's only when leverage was used to acquire the property and then they're trying to use an after repair value to pull cash out in hand. Is that 12 month seasoning rate and term is different. So that doesn't apply either.   Speaker 0 (00:07:45) - Okay. So if you make a purchase and then say it less than 12 months down the road, you want to do a refi but not pull cash out, is that still all right?   Speaker 3 (00:07:55) - That's absolutely fine. No seasoning is required and we can use the arv. It's only when you want cash in your hand that that 12 months is is applicable.   Speaker 0 (00:08:04) - Got it. Okay. That's really helpful to know. Just big picture before we winnow down, are there any other big substantial mortgage stories out there that some should know about? Um, it was only a couple weeks ago, there was a lot of misinformation going around on TikTok and elsewhere about 40 year loans from F H A without people understanding that's just for loan modifications and really other stories like that. Any other big picture things where you can help us see what's happening?   Speaker 3 (00:08:30) - It seems to be par for for the course? I have not. There's nothing that's come across my desk that I would say was newsworthy or noteworthy to share. I think we've got more to unpack here than any of that.   Speaker 0 (00:08:40) - Yeah and things sure are picking up here around G R e. People wanna buy more properties this year. It really slowed down toward the end of last year, right about when the mortgage rates were at their peak. So when we talk about getting loans, we think about leverage. Leverage is created with debt. Has anything changed with the down payment requirements for an income property? And we're largely here in today's discussion talking about one to four unit income properties. Properties that you don't live in yourself,   Speaker 3 (00:09:08) - Correct down payments have have remained the same. There isn't been anything that has changed there. Just to reiterate, for those that may not be aware on a single family residence, conventionally 85% loan to value is applicable. You can leverage all the way up to 85, you're putting 15% down. Keep in mind everybody that that will have pmi, private mortgage insurance attached to it, I would have you look at them side by side. The PMI factors actually pretty low and depending on the loan size it may only be 20, 30 bucks a month. So if you're able to leverage extra, it may make sense. You're gonna have to look at the numbers so that single family and then two to four unit on a purchase transaction different on a refinance transaction but purchase is 25% down or 75% leverage is required for those duplex, triplex, fourplexes.   Speaker 0 (00:09:54) - Okay, so as little as 15% down on a rental single family home. So you're getting up to six to one, seven to one leverage in that case. Sheila, do you find very many people doing that or would they rather pay the 20% down for a rental single family home and not have the pmi?   Speaker 3 (00:10:10) - I find that right now I think that it's less common than maybe it was because interest rates are up from where they were, uh, a year, year and a half ago. So more often than not we see the 20% down. But I still think it's worth looking at. I mean you're never gonna know unless you run the numbers right side by side.   Speaker 0 (00:10:25) - Okay, so we're thinking about how much cash we have to have put aside for a down payment in closing costs. And one thing that we need to do in order to qualify for that loan in the first place of course is some people get hung up on the dti, their debt to income ratio is too high to qualify for property and chaley. Over the past few months I've had a few listeners write in with questions and I thought, well I'll say that question until we have chale on again. And one of them really has to do with student loan debt. Student loan debt often contributes to one having too high of a debt to income ratio so that they didn't have to repay their loan. I know that Biden said that you wouldn't have to pay back student loan debt for a while, but can you talk to us specifically about student loan debt with D T I?   Speaker 3 (00:11:06) - There's gonna be a few pieces to share with everybody depending on whether we're talking about Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac and we won't know who we're gonna end up selling to after the loan funds. And they have slightly different guidelines between the two of them. Similar. But there are some differences as it relates to student loan debt regardless of whether you're in deferment or you've been told that you don't have to repay. If it shows up on an individual's credit report, the calculation will be as follows. They're going to take the outstanding balance times 1%, that's Fannie Mae's rule or the outstanding balance times half a percent. That's Freddie Mac rule and that will be the payment that we include in the debt to income ratio. Uh, I'll mention that the all-in one, which is a very popular loan right now. First Lean HeLOCK, maybe we'll talk about that here today. They will defer to Fannie rules so it'll be 1% of the outstanding debt pulling on the credit report even if it shows a zero payment listed. Now there is one caveat, if the individual has a letter, this happened maybe in the last six months and I'm trying to think about, there was a title, it's pretty rare. But if they're able to gain access to documentation that specifies that they are not going to have to repay that debt and we can take that documentation, then we can zero out that payment in the D T I.   Speaker 0 (00:12:22) - Alright, there's some strategies for how you can approach D T I with respect to any student loan debt that you have and what is the maximum D T I that a borrower can have?   Speaker 3 (00:12:34) - Conventionally and non qm, you're gonna get to 50% debt to income ratio for the all-in-one since we just touched on it, 43% is the absolute max.   Speaker 0 (00:12:43) - Okay. And on prior shows, Chile and I have discussed specifically with examples just how that D T I is calculated. If you're wondering, you can hear that in some past episodes Chile one one goes ahead and they continue to add income properties to their portfolio. Often I recommend that one does that with high leverage but not over leverage. How does one keep their D T I ratio down over time as they continue to add properties so that they can qualify for more properties in the future? Is there a good strategy for that?   Speaker 3 (00:13:14) - There is, and it's such a good question because as investors, right, our qualification primers are not static. They're going to change over time as we buy and sell and refinance. So it's very, very important, especially with the debt to income ratio that we're keeping an eye on it. And there's a few ways in which you can kind of strategize or optimize that D T I. The first is going to be the Schedule E, okay? The Schedule E is where all the rental properties are going to live once you've filed the annual tax return. The easiest way for the time that we have here today, Keith, is gonna be to tell the listeners, send us your draft returns. So on an ongoing basis we tell our active clients do not file federal tax returns until you send us the draft. We're going to run that draft through the pre-formulated calculation that comes straight from Fannie, Freddie and then we're gonna provide you with some feedback, one of which may be Mr.   Speaker 3 (00:14:03) - Jones, you forgot to include your insurance as a deduction and that's actually an add back that's gonna be to your disadvantage. Make sure that you put that in there. You didn't claim the full number of days of income for the property, you forgot to put depreciation on there. That's also an add back. There's a whole slew of things that we can look at and look for and give the individual that feedback so that they are filing at that optimal way while maintaining what the maximized tax credits are, right? There's a nice balance there. The more aggressive you are with the tax deductions, the more it can impact the D T I. So we wanna have eyes on that and work closely with the client and or their CPA is a very common part of what we do. So schedule E a little more complicated, that would be one of the the ways in which we wanna maximize debt to income ratio.   Speaker 3 (00:14:45) - Obviously not obtaining new debt, new consumer debt is is not gonna be to our advantage, right? We don't want more liability than we have income. Another thing is, is that when we talk about credit and a lot of clients that we talk to, they pay their credit cards off monthly, right? Maybe they charge up five grand, eight grand, 10 grand, they get a miles or whatever it is. It's very important to communicate with us to find out when in the month we wanna strategically pull the credit. Because what will happen is is that the day in which we take that snapshot, if there's a minimum payment due, a balance with a minimum payment, that minimum payment will be used in the individual's debt to income ratio regardless of whether they're gonna pay it off at the end of the month. That doesn't matter to us.   Speaker 3 (00:15:26) - There's a payment here, we gotta hit you for it. So strategizing on the day in which we wanna run credit might be another helpful way for D T I. And then finally, and there's probably a few other things, but I think high use would be, I don't like the shorter term amortizations. I think this is something else you and I have talked about many times, Keith, where people wanna pay off quicker, which is great if that's really what they wanna do, that's perfectly fine. I'm not sure that that would be my strategy, but whatever. Don't get yourself into a 15 year fixed mortgage because it's only gonna jack that payment. It's gonna really increase that payment. It's ultimately going to, for long-term optimization, hurt your D T I. You can do the same thing with a 30 year mortgage and not pay extra interest by accelerating the debt if that's what you chose. So those would be the the few things I'd comment on   Speaker 0 (00:16:10) - 100%. And for you the listener and viewer right now with what you just heard from chaley, you can begin to understand the value of working with a lender that works specific with income property investors rather than those lenders that are more geared toward primary residents, borrowers. Nothing wrong with them but they're in their lane during their thing. And you can understand why Chaley over there at Ridge is really a specialist to help you qualifying for as many income property loans as you possibly can and optimizing those loans as well. Chaley, when we talk about interest rates, oftentimes it's of interest to people to look at what are refinance interest rates like versus new purchase interest rates.   Speaker 3 (00:16:54) - I would say on average there's a variety of of variables that dictate what the rate is gonna be. Okay? I talk about this a lot. They're called LPAs loan level price adjustments. And a loan level price adjustment is a positive or negative number that attaches to the characteristic of the loan transaction. So purchase or refi, hash out refi rate and term refi credit score has its own L L P A loan to value, loan size occupancy. All of these come with a positive or negative number attached to them as it relates to purchase versus refinance. Generally speaking, let's take a rate and term refi where you're not getting cash out, you're just maybe taking an arm and making it affix. You're taking a higher rate and making it lower, whatever, maybe about a half a point difference. So if a purchase was at six and a half, the re rate and term refinance might be at 6 75 or 7%, cash out's gonna be a little bit different. I would add a quarter point to that and then if, if it's a two to four unit, add another quarter point on top of that. So those variables do make a difference.   Speaker 0 (00:17:53) - And maybe the listener might think, well why are you talking about refinancing at a time like this? If I wanted to refinance, I would've been more likely to do that about two years ago when mortgage rates read historic lows. But today Americans are sitting on near record equity, oftentimes it might be tied up in a low mortgage rate loan with that equity chaley. I talked to some people out there just lay people, people that aren't even investors and they have a big equity position with a really low mortgage interest rate loan and they seem to think that to refinance it, they would need to go ahead and refinance their entire mortgage and lose that maybe three or 4% loan, but they don't necessarily have to if they can do a second mortgage. So I guess really what I'm getting at and the question chaley is what is the best way to do a rate and term refi versus a cash out refi? And I know there are a lot of scenarios there.   Speaker 3 (00:18:44) - Yeah, lots of scenarios. So to your point, it is not necessary to give up a very low fixed rate mortgage if you want to harvest some of that equity. The ways in which, and I'm gonna have a plug after this for the all in one, but I'll get to that cuz I'm just such a big fan. But the ways in which you can do that both for your primary residents, a second home and an investment will be through a second lien mortgage, whether it be a heloc, home equity line of credit or a he loan, the HE loan is applicable for the rental properties. I do not believe, I hope somebody can give me alternative information, but I do not believe you're able to find second lean HELOCs for rentals today. I feel like those have really dried up if they're out there, the ones that I know of that used to do them are not doing them anymore.   Speaker 3 (00:19:27) - If they're out there and anyone's listening to this, somebody please let me know. Keylock for rental probably not an option. He loan for rental absolutely is an option. And this is guys a fixed rate mortgage in second lean position, just like your 30 year fixed first, this will be a 30 year fixed second interest rates are gonna be higher. And since we were talking about interest rates, I'm gonna say that they're probably anywhere from 10 to 13%, but they're smaller amounts. C L T V combined loan to value for a he loan on a rental would be 85% is what we have access to. So as quick math guys, if you have a value of a home of a hundred thousand and you owe on your first mortgage 50,000, the CLTV would be 85% of a hundred. So 85,000 minus the 50001st, which stays in place, you'd have access to about 35,000 in that example. And that would be access to rental properties that you just do not want to mess with that first lien mortgage different for owner-occupied. And I'll take your queue on when you want me to get into that.   Speaker 0 (00:20:26) - Yeah. Okay. So we are just talking about income property second mortgages there. Tell us about primary residences.   Speaker 3 (00:20:32) - So primary and secondary should be in the same bucket. You can leverage just 90% C L T B, same math as before but up to 90% And these are gonna be, you have HeLOCK and he loan. I'm gonna assume most people are gonna go for the HeLOCK, right? The open-ended revolving is definitely more attractive than a closed-ended fixed I believe in a second lien. And you know Prime is at eight I believe right now. Gosh, I should have checked before we go on, but I think Prime is sitting, it's an index. An indices like the Fed fund rate, that's an index two prime is at about eight. And then depending on the characteristics, those l LPAs that I mentioned, loan level price adjustments are gonna come up with a margin. Maybe it's 2% over prime or one or whatever it is depending on those things. So I would anticipate a HELOC and second lie position on a primary residence will be anywhere from eight to maybe 10%. More often than not is what you should expect. Interest only open-ended.   Speaker 0 (00:21:24) - And on the second mortgages, whether that takes the form of a HELOC or a HE loan, how long is the initial fixed rate period? Typically   Speaker 3 (00:21:32) - There are hybrids where you can fix in for a year or three years, et cetera. Those are available. I'm not sure that you wanna do that in a high rate environment. You probably wanna avoid any fixed rate right now if you had the option to get into it a couple of years ago, you're looking really good right now because you fixed in at at some ridiculously low rate for a period of two, three, maybe five years. I would tell people listening, fixing in on a HELOC right now is not gonna be your advantage when we believe that rates are gonna start coming down over the next year, et cetera. But for the HE loan, it's fixed for 30 years. Just like a 30 year fixed first lie mortgage, it's fixed, you have it four 30 years, it's amortized, it's closed ended. You're making your regular payments until you pay it off after the 30 year period of time.   Speaker 0 (00:22:13) - We're talking about how you can more efficiently borrow in this environment where people and investors have high equity positions and we have hopefully come off the mortgage rate highs from late last year. You're listening to Get Risk Education. Our guest is Ridge Lending Group President Chaley Ridge Morton, we come back. I'm your host Keith White Hole with JWB Real Estate Capital. Jacksonville Real Estate has outperformed the stock market by 44% over the last 20 years. It's proven to be a more stable asset, especially during recessions. Their vertically integrated strategy has led to 79% more home price appreciation compared to the average Jacksonville investor. Since 2013, JWB is ready to help your money make money, and to make it easy for everyday investors, get started at jw b real estate.com/g rre. That's JWB real estate.com/g R E GRE listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS 40 2056. They've provided our tribe with more loans than anyone. They're truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four plexes. So start your pre-qualification and you can chat with President Chaley Ridge personally. They'll even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio. start@ridgelendinggroup.com.   Speaker 4 (00:23:45) - This is Rich Dad sales advisor, Blair Singer, listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Wine Hold and above all don't quit your daydream.   Speaker 1 (00:24:03) - Welcome   Speaker 0 (00:24:04) - Back to Get Rich Education. We're learning about how to be a savvy borrower with President of Ridge Lending Group, Chaley Ridge and Chaley. One product you have there that's really flexible and has helped out so many people and helped save borrowers tens of thousands of dollars in interest or more is what's called your all in one loan. Tell us about it.   Speaker 3 (00:24:25) - This is a first Lean HeLOCK everyone. I'm such a big fan, it's not for everybody, but for the right individual, I don't know that there is a loan product to rival it. It's got all the flexibility in the world and as Keith said, the mechanics of this and the concept of this arbitrage, it's called Velocity Banking, infinity Banking. If anybody's familiar with those terms, that's what this does. It allows you all the open flexibility to sort of become your own bank where you have this line of credit. It is a first lien line of credit. So let's take a a step back and talk about those low interest rates that everybody has secured over the last couple of years. We were very lucky to have to two and a half, 3% interest rates. And I'm constantly having this conversation and I'm really trying hard to dispel the psychology of you can never do better than that when it's just not the truth.   Speaker 3 (00:25:14) - And mathematically you will be able to figure this out. I'm gonna plug our website here. There is an interactive simulator that will take you to the all-in-one simulator where you can compare your existing fixed first lien mortgage to the All in one and and the input data is very, very simple. No vials of blood here guys, but if the input is accurate, the results page will tell you very clearly if the all-in one will save interest and Trump over the 30 year fixed at two and a half or whatever it is, or if you're fixed rate mortgage is more to your advantage, it will be very clear there'll be no mistaking it from that. I think further conversations will be necessary for those that see some real value in the All In One. I won't go too far down that rabbit hole, it's a little bit more complicated than we probably have time for here. But the first Lean All In one is such a fantastic tool. I really encourage your listeners to go ahead and and check out at the very least the simulator and see how it applies to you.   Speaker 0 (00:26:08) - The all-in one loan operates much like a first lien heloc. I don't think we have time to describe it all. Like you said, you do have the simulator there on your website@ridgelendinggroup.com where one could see if their existing mortgage it compares favorably or unfavorably to the all-in one loan. But as we know with the first lien heloc, therefore one feature of the All in one loan is the option, not obligation, but option of making interest-only payments to keep your payment down.   Speaker 3 (00:26:34) - Yeah, this is where it gets a little bit tricky for some people when we start talking about payments FirstLine Open-ended HeLOCK, where it's called the All In one because you're replacing not only your mortgage with this revolving open-ended heloc, but also a checking and savings account and combining those two elements whereby simple depository income is being used at dollar for dollar driving down principle balance to save in daily interest accrual. I'm gonna give a quick example and then we can move on and, and I encourage everybody to do the simulator email us, let's talk through it. We'll take you by the hand. It's the learning curve's a little intense, it was even for me. But here's an example of velocity of money and kind of how the all-in-one works. So take a 30 year fixed mortgage and a 15 year fixed mortgage. Both of them started at $400,000 each.   Speaker 3 (00:27:22) - You lock the 30 year at 4% and the 15 year was locked at 7%. Without exception, everybody runs to the 30 year at 4%. I would've done the same if I didn't know the math when in fact the reality is is that you will pay $40,000 more on that 4% 30 year than you would on the 7% 15 year because the amount of time that you're paying on that mortgage is greatly reduced. And that's, I guess a, an easy concept. It's a, the first step of trying to define this for most people, they can kind of see it in those terms because they understand the amortized mortgage. It's the amount of time that you are paying interest. So if you're utilizing your depository checking savings and your mortgage and all of that money is going in there month after month before it's going back out the door for whatever your living expenses are. And then whatever's left over is, is stays in there. 24 7 access. Nothing changes about your current banking techniques or or strategies. It's all the same. But now you're in control. You've become your own bank. It's amazing. I can't say enough about it   Speaker 0 (00:28:24) - Talking about the all in one loan there. You sure can learn more from Ridge on that. Jaylee, is there really like anything else that I guess is noteworthy specifically in helping a borrower qualify for income property loans, maybe a common problem or a borrower hurdle that you see in there at Ridge?   Speaker 3 (00:28:43) - I would just boil it down to education. Just lack of information. It's not dear Google stuff. The guidelines and what's available. All of these things are changing on a consistent basis that real-time information's not available to them. So if I had to pick one thing, I would just say education. And I'm very proud to say that we really focus on that. If there's a value add about Ridge, I think there's quite a few. But the one that I think sticks out for most people is the education that we provide to our investors and shining a light and giving them a look under the hood and what they need to know, teaching 'em how to optimize their qualifications and all of the stuff that we've been talking about here today.   Speaker 0 (00:29:19) - Well that's a good point because when we talk about real estate investing, you're really, they're in one of the more dynamic and fast-changing parts of the industry as opposed to something like home construction where a lot of the methods haven't changed for 50 or more years, if you will. So yeah, it's really staying up and staying informed on that and engaging with a lot of the educational resources increasingly that Ridge has for you to help you stay on top of that as an income property bar yourself. And Shaley can tell us a bit more about that shortly. But why don't you tell us about all of the loan types, the mortgage products if you will, that you offer in there.   Speaker 3 (00:29:52) - That's another great value add about us. We have a very diverse menu, if you will, of loan products that don't just start and stop with the conventional. We're not a one size fits all. So we've got the Fannie Freddy's, we talk about that a lot. Our all in one, my favorite. We have a very diverse non QM product line and for those that aren't familiar with that term, QM stands for Qualified Mortgage. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are the, uh, epitome the definition of what a qualified mortgage is. There's a whole definition we don't need to go into today, but, so everything outside of that QM is now non qm. And within non qm, like I said, extremely diverse. There's things called the debt service coverage ratio product where we're not showing borrower income, we're just looking at the properties income offset by the new mortgage payment. There's bank statement products. If you can't show tax returns, we're gonna take deposits and average them asset depletion. If you've got large self-directed ira, we can come up with an income calculation for that. The list goes on. We've got commercial products for commercial properties, but also for residential properties. Cross collateralization. It's pretty diverse. We have a lot for everybody.   Speaker 0 (00:30:54) - When you excel in there, you've been such industry leaders at originating income property loans for investors were proportion of your businesses income property loans and what proportion is primary residence loans?   Speaker 3 (00:31:06) - A lot of people don't realize we can do both and we do both very well. But I would say that it's probably 70 30 not owner-occupied. To owner-occupied. A large part of what we do is the investor loans. But most of our investor clients come to us for their primary needs too because we already have their life on file and, and can get that done very competitively   Speaker 0 (00:31:24) - Too. , right? And you keep growing. You're in almost all 50 states now.   Speaker 3 (00:31:27) - I know. Can you believe it? We're in 47 states. We're not in North Dakota, New York, or Vermont, otherwise we're everywhere.   Speaker 0 (00:31:34) - Letter audience know how they can learn about your resources.   Speaker 3 (00:31:37) - There's a couple ways to find us our website, ridge lending group.com. They can email us, info ridge linen group.com. Our toll free is 8 5 5 74 Ridge 8 5 5 7 4 7 4 3 4 3. And while you're on our website gang, uh, check us out on our community. I have a live event every Tuesday, one 30 Pacific, uh, four 30 Eastern. Uh, lots of good information register and it's free. Lots of good information and, and education like we've been talking about here. Hope to see you.   Speaker 0 (00:32:05) - Oh, it's been a terrific and crucial mortgage market update. Chaley Ridge, thanks so much for coming back into the   Speaker 3 (00:32:11) - Show. Thank you. Appreciate it.   Speaker 0 (00:32:18) - Oh yeah, lots of good concise information there from Chaley. It's a type of content that can have you hitting the rewind button on your pod catcher at times. All right, so we learned that in a lot of scenarios there. Second, mortgages come with rather high interest rates that is prohibitive. But then on the other side, it's encouraging to learn, learn that on primary residences, for example, you can get up to 90% loaned value. That means you only need to keep 10% equity in your home. And as far as that all in one loan simulator, we'll put a link directly to that in the show notes for you. But like Chaley said, you might wanna reach out to them@ridgegroup.com and then they can help walk you through it. Thank you to Caeli for the generous contribution to your learning today. Until next week, I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Don't quit your daydream.   Speaker 5 (00:33:15) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial, or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests on their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education L l C exclusively.   Speaker 6 (00:33:43) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for Wealth building. Get rich education.com.