The Salesman.com Podcast

As a sales rep, it’s your job to convince the buyer that you’ve got the solution to their problems. But how exactly do you get a sales lead from the point of zero product awareness to enthusiastic buyer? Today we’re talking about perhaps the most foundational of all sales techniques—how to convince a customer to buy from you. And stay tuned. We have a lot more to talk about than you might think! Selling Mind Control The crooked smile. The slicked-back hair. The patchy sports coat. We’ve all seen the old caricature of a sales rep before. You know the type—the one who’d step over their own mother just to close a deal. They’re one part charmer and two parts swindler. But we in the sales industry know that grifting a lead into buying a shoddy product is worse than just bad business. It poisons your reputation. Kills any chance at repeat customers. And decimates your earning potential. Instead, a truly successful sales rep knows value-based selling is the way to go. This form of selling prioritizes the buyer's needs. And instead of pitching them on a product at every stage of the buyer’s journey, this type of rep does their best to offer value stage by stage. They assess the situation, identify the problem, determine if they have a solution, and then (and only then) will they start closing the deal. But even after picking out the perfect solution, they still need to convince the buyer they have exactly what they’ve been looking for. Now, there are plenty of ways to approach this pivotal moment, the pitch. Some dig deep into emotions, others focus purely on logic. But over my career, I’ve found that a mix of the two is by far the most effective. Today, I’m showing you my proven four-step process for convincing customers to buy from you. And with it, you’ll be able to turn even the toughest sells into enthusiastic brand evangelists in no time flat. Ready? Let’s do this. 1: Understand Where The Buyer Is If you’ve been doing things right up until this point—you know, researching the business, investigating pain points, asking about past solutions they’ve used, etc.—then you should already have a pretty good idea of the problem your buyer is facing. What you need to do here is call it out. Call out the, say, inefficient teams they’ve been dealing with. Or the frustrating accounting system that no one quite understands. Or a lack of engaged customers. Bring it all up in the pitch with your buyer. Get them to think, “This guy really understands what I’m going through.” But don’t stop there. The trick is not to just point out the pain. But to take it one step further by getting the lead to feel that pain. Founder of the MEDDICC sales framework Andy Whyte put it to me like this in our interview: “Now, implicating the pain is the one that really elite sellers do. Where it's like, I've found some pain, I've quantified it, but now I'm going to really make you feel it.”  How are those problems impacting their work-life? Their opportunities for advancement? Their respect they get around the office? What are those pains doing to hurt their reputation? Their finances? Their sense of fulfillment? Hit those points and hit them hard. 2: Point Out the Barriers Similar to picking out the pain points, this step also builds rapport and gets the buyer thinking, “Man, he knows his stuff!” What is it that’s holding the buyer back from solving this problem on their own? In most cases, the barriers fall into four different categories: Selection overwhelm, confirmation bias, blowback risk, and cost of change. Let’s take a look at each. A) Selection Overwhelm Now, selection overwhelm is a big one. In almost any industry, you’re going to have competitors. And sometimes, it’ll be a lot of competitors. If a prospect hasn’t solved their problem yet because they see so many potential solutions but don’t know which to choose, that’s selection overwhelm. Your job up to this point should have been to differentiate your product enough to make it clear why you stand out from the rest. B) Confirmation Bias Confirmation bias. This bias is essentially our tendency to stick with our past decisions and look past its faults rather than work with something new. C) Blowback Risk Blowback risk, which is the risk of your potential buyer looking stupid if things don’t work out. The solution to this barrier is your brand, reputation, reviews, case studies, etc. D) Cost of Change Cost of change. Now there will always be costs to implementing a new solution. But if you can make your buyer’s job as easy as possible, say by providing complimentary training or free support for a year, then you can help them overcome this barrier. So during your pitch, you should pick out which barrier your prospect has been hitting in the past. And then later in step #4, we’re going to loop back and show them how you tear that barrier down. 3: Paint a Picture of Where They Want to Be What does life look like after your buyer’s found the right solution? Are they more productive? Is their team more efficient? Are they happier? Do they sleep better at night? Really try to paint a clear picture of what their life could be like with the right solution. And try to cover a broad spectrum of effects—how has their productivity changed? How has their home life changed? How has their career trajectory changed? Now obviously, you’ll want to make this picture as positive as you can. But it’s important to be authentic here. Don’t promise them a new reality that your product can’t create. Upgraded accounting software can do wonders for your bookkeeping but saying it’ll give your buyer a six-pack, 7-figure salary, and a perfect head of hair isn’t going to fool anyone. The point here is to get them connecting the solution to their problem with a brighter, happier future. 4: Establish Yourself as the Guide Remember those barriers to a happier life we talked about in step #2? Well now it’s time to bring in the details on how you help buyers overcome those barriers. If they’ve been held back by selection overwhelm, hit them with your core differentiators. Confirmation bias? Show them how your solution outperforms what they have now. Blowback risk? Case studies and testimonials. Cost of change? Throw in free onboarding or even an immediate discount to reduce the risk. But ultimately, explain that you are the connection between their current reality—with all its pain points and frustrations—and the glowing future reality we painted a picture of before. You can get them there. They just need to let you lead the way.

Communication—it’s a delicate art when talking with potential buyers. Ask the right questions, you’re driving enthusiasm and closing successfully. But ask the wrong ones and you’re sabotaging deals and looking like a fool doing it. That’s why in this video, we’re covering the 5 most powerful sales questions. From discovery calls a d demos to closing like a champ, these questions are guaranteed to skyrocket your numbers and catapult you well past your quotas. Best Selling Questions, Ever Now before we get started, think about it for a sec—are you asking prospects the right questions? I’m not just talking about when you first connect or on discovery calls here. But instead, the right questions throughout the entire sales process. See, asking bad questions sinks sales. It makes you look like an idiot. It scares off picture-perfect buyers. And it leaves leads thinking, “Why would I ever want to work with that guy?” Now, I covered the top five sales-sinking questions in a previous video. And if you haven’t already seen it, go give it a look when you finish this video. But what are the good questions? The ones that dig into the heart of your buyer’s pain points? That uncover the real problems they’re facing? That are built to quickly qualify prospects while driving enthusiasm, building rapport, and nudging the right leads ever closer to saying “YES!”? That’s exactly what I’m covering in today’s video. So if you’re ready to start asking the right questions throughout your sales process, let’s jump right in. Now, first up, like I said, is perhaps the most powerful sales question you can ever learn. And you’ll be surprised at just how simple it is. 1) “Does It Make Sense to…?” That’s it? That’s it! “Does it make sense to…?” This questions is straight out of the Closing Framework from inside Selling Made Simple Academy. What’s so great about this question is that it makes selling a collaborative process. Rather than going for a hard push to buy or even to set up a call, you’re getting input from the buyer. Are they ready to move forward? And if not, you get the opportunity to ask, “What’s holding you back?” You can then deal with any objections or sticking points directly rather than uncover them further down the sales process. Now, this question isn’t just for when it comes time to close the deal. Instead, it can be used throughout the entire process. From setting up discovery calls and demos to getting into pricing and going over the finer details. The point here is that this question… Relieves buyer pressure and lets them know you aren’t going to hit them with aggressive sales tactics… Keeps them updated on where you’re at in the sales process and which steps are next. And it… Forces the buyer to think logically about whether they’re a fit or if they have objections. I’m going to be going into greater detail on how this question works in an upcoming video. So if you haven’t already, hit that subscribe button now so you don’t miss it. Now, let’s look at the next set of powerful questions. These next four questions come directly from The Diagnose Framework, which is particularly perfect for discovery calls, demos, sales calls, and everything in between. And we’re going to start with this question… 2) “What’s Stopping You From Solving This Issue Yourself?” There are two benefits specifically to asking this question. On the one hand, you’re qualifying the prospect. If they can solve the problem themselves, then they’re not going to value your solution as much as it deserves. And that can cause issues down the road. On top of that, this question will also uncover any hidden obstacles that make it clear this lead just isn’t a fit. But secondly, this question makes the value that you offer real. What’s holding you back from solving this issue? Well we can overcome that obstacle. And we can provide tangible, often quantifiable value that you can’t get on your own. Qualifying power with a hint of driving enthusiasm. Perfect. 3) “When Do You Want to Solve This Pain?” Timeline is such an important part of the qualification process. Do they need their problem solved sooner than you’re able to roll out your solution? If so, this isn’t a good fit. And conversely, are they looking to solve this problem two, three years down the line? If that’s the case, they likely aren’t motivated enough to draw up a contract now, and they may just be fishing for information (let marketing handle that). But this question also opens up the conversation on what the buyer should expect too. How long does your solution take to implement? What’s the onboarding and training process like? And is that within their time window? If not, they can self-qualify themselves out, making things easier on you today. 4) “What Is Your Motivation to Make This Happen?” Now, this one is especially clever in my opinion. Because beyond just learning more about what factors are driving your prospect’s decision-making, this one question also does wonders for connecting with your buyer’s emotions. President and CEO of Whetstone Inc., Adrian Davis, put it to me like this: “Fundamentally, we make decisions emotionally, and if all we're doing is spouting features and benefits, we're really engaging the logical part of the brain. The logical part of the brain does not make decisions. But analyses and captures information to weigh pros and cons, but decisions are made emotionally.” – Interview with Adrian Davis, President & CEO of Whetstone Inc. What are the factors that are driving your buyer’s need to get this done? Is it just the numbers? Or is there company status, respect, and even on-the-job fulfillment involved too? If you take the time to dig a bit, I guarantee you’ll find there’s much more to the story than just logic. And when you engage that side too, you’ll find yourself closing more deals than ever. 5) “If We Can Solve X, Will You Commit to Y?”  Now, it should be noted here that this question should follow some sort of qualifying affirmation. Usually I pair it with, “You’re a good fit for us” first. But essentially the value here is this: You’re in the business of exchanging value. The buyer pays for your product. And in return, they get a solution to their problem. This question makes that even exchange of value clear. They aren’t doing you any favors by buying your product just as you aren’t doing them any by selling to them. Instead, you’re coming to this deal on equal footing. This helps reinforce the fact that this should be a reciprocal relationship rather than a one-sided one. And it’s designed to create the foundation for an equal, dare I say synergistic, relationship. Summary And there you have it—the five most powerful sales questions you can ask buyers. When you add these questions to your arsenal, and when you train yourself to ask them naturally, you’re bound to start closing more sales, building rapport, and sailing through the sales process easier than ever before. It’s just plain smarter selling.

We’ve all seen the glamorous toys rich people buy—the luxury cars, the decked-out jewelry, the quintuple decker yachts. But what about the things rich people buy to grow their wealth? To become richer? That’s what we’re looking at today—the top 6 things rich people buy that poor people don’t. And if you’re looking for a way to invest in yourself, you’d better stick around. Get Rich Quick? Wealth is a funny thing. Some people are born into it. Others fall ass-backward into millions. And some people, on paper, look like they should be rich someday… but end up paupered, penniless, and pissed at the world around them. Making and spending money wisely is tricky. And a misunderstanding about what you should and shouldn’t be buying to grow your wealth is one of the biggest differences between the rich and the poor. Which investments pay off? What purchases lay the groundwork for future success? And how can you tell the difference between an asset that expands your financial empire and one that brings it crashing down? These aren’t easy questions. Hell, if they were, everyone would be rolling in dough. But today, we’re pulling back the curtain and looking at six things in particular rich people buy and poor people don’t. From physical items to organizations and yep, even ideas, we’re tackling it all. Now, let’s give it a look. 1: Training The best asset you’ll ever have is your own abilities. And the more you invest in bettering yourself—we’re talking mind, body, and spirit here—the better earning potential you’ll have. Reading and consuming valuable, educational material is key here. The most successful people, for example, consume books and audiobooks ravenously. And if you’re not reading at least 10 pages a day, sorry to say it, you’re simply not doing enough. But books and written content are just the start. And you can only learn so much by reading the static words on a page. That’s why rich people also tend to invest in training programs. Ones that provide interactive deep dives into the topics. Ones that cover skills and strategies using different media like whiteboards and video. And ones that give you the opportunity to engage with (and pick the brains of) real-life experts. It's that type of learning experience that I modeled the Selling Made Simple Academy after. All-in-one sales training, in-depth mentoring, proven success—it’s got it all. And on top of all that, if you can sell, you can do anything. So developing this invaluable skill should be at the top of your list. 2: Businesses Now don’t worry, this one isn’t as out of reach as you might think. One of the best ways of expanding wealth is by purchasing a successful business. Businesses are revenue-generating machines. And with a business that’s already well-managed, you don’t have to put in any work to keep them earning money while you sleep. It’s why business acquisition is one of the go-to investments for people with lots of money to burn. But for those with a little less expendable income, there’s always investing in the stock market. Buying shares in companies with strong track records can dramatically scale your wealth if you’ve got an eye for the market. And with the right investments, you can create a surprisingly substantial passive income stream from dividends alone. 3: Audience Whether you’re selling physical products or services, there’s one thing that’s common across any industry—people. You need people to buy what you’re selling if you want to make a profit. And the savviest professionals know that spending their money on increasing their audience is a fantastic way to boost future income. Now, you can’t directly buy sales opportunities (at least not ones that’ll actually pan out). But what you can do is invest in indirectly increasing your audience. For example, you can purchase equipment that’ll increase the production value of your webinars. You can invest in marketing your upcoming event. You can hire on help for producing valuable and educational content you use to grow your LinkedIn network. There are tons of ways for you to invest in growing your audience. And the more you do, the more you’ll be growing your earning potential. 4: Precious Metals The markets these days are a bit, shall we say… sporadic. With everything going on in the world around us, your portfolio could be bringing in a return of 5% one day and getting hit with a 10% loss the next. That’s why so many of the wealthy invest in precious metals that hold their value. These are super stable investments, unlike erratic Bitcoin or NFTs. When the market goes down, their value stays steady as a rock because they have actual, physical value. Sure, clever investors still hang on to some super risky stocks and assets in case they pay off. But the majority of their portfolios are super safe to offset the downsides of riskier investments. 5: Intellectual Property Rich people grow their wealth by owning a variety of ideas, systems, or other protected IPs. This could include ideas like a system for expanding your online audience, creative works like unique characters, music, or art, or patents for inventions. Now, a smart investor will grow their wealth by licensing these assets out to others and collecting royalties or licensing fees. For example, Salesman.org uses its own custom illustrated character designs. I can license these character designs out to another training company for some extra income. Or I can even hire a writing team and illustrator to create a comic featuring those characters to further expand my audience. See how that works? 6: Appearance Boosters Now I’m not talking about stupid designer clothes, diamond-encrusted watchbands, and plastic surgery. Instead, I’m talking about smart, straightforward items that enhance your appearance so you can do business better. See, first impressions matter, especially when it comes to business. And if you show up to a sales deal wearing a stained T-shirt, there’s no way in hell anyone’s going to want to work with you. That’s why it’s so important to buy items that imply success. “Imply” is the key word here. Because going too far the other direction (like buying over-the-top flashy outfits and jewelry) makes it seem like you’re not serious. For example, I wear an Omega Seamaster watch to meetings. It’s a fantastic watch. And it shows that I’ve had a bit of success. But it isn’t so decked out in jewels that it could blind a prospect if it catches the light wrong. Look successful. But don’t risk coming off as unprofessional along the way. Summary So there you have it! Six things rich people buy that the poor don’t. These are all savvy investments that the cleverest wealth-growers consistently use to boost their earning potential even higher. So focus on these assets instead of wasting away your income on the flashy cars or luxury clothes. Because when you do, you can rest easy knowing you’re truly investing in your future. Not just buying a bit of bling that won’t earn you a single cent.

On this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Jon Picoult explains how to turn your customers into raving, lifelong fans and what effect this has on the number of deals you'll close this year. Jon is the founder of Watermark Consulting and author of “From Impressed To Obsessed”. Coming soon. Sponsored by: Free SalesCode assessment Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind. Take the free assessment Featured on this episode: Host - Will Barron Founder of Salesman.org Guest - Jon Picoult Author: From Impressed To Obsessed Transcript: Coming soon.

Success isn’t fated. It’s forged. You just have to have the right qualities to make that success a reality. Using data from more than 10,000 participants who’ve taken our SalesCode assessment, this video covers 15 traits of particularly high performers. And best of all, you can cultivate and develop each of these traits yourself. Are you built to win? We first created the SalesCode assessment as a learning tool for future-minded reps. What were their strengths? Where could they use some improvement? And what did they need to focus on to take their sales skills to the next level? Since its initial launch, more than 10,000 sales professionals have completed the assessment. And while it’s definitely served its original purpose, this enormous chunk of data also opened up the door to something unexpected. With it, we could actually identify the key traits that high performers had in common. Now, there were some outliers of course. But in general, the best of the best outperformed the average rabble on each of these 15 traits. And these weren’t “born with it or without it traits” either. They were skills, mindsets, and processes that anyone could cultivate. From the awkward first-year intern to the seasoned professional looking to climb the corporate ladder. So today, I thought I’d share those 15 traits we discovered after analyzing our SalesCode assessment data. And hopefully, doing so will give you a clearer roadmap to which skills you can cultivate to boost your sales success. Sound good? Let’s jump in. I’ve organized the 15 qualities into 3 distinct trait types—beliefs, actions, and sales skills. And the first trait type we’re talking about is… A) Beliefs Beliefs. These are the ideas and qualities that underpin everything these individuals do, how they look at the world (and themselves) as a whole. And trait number one is… Comfortable Talking About Money Businesses run on money. And high performers recognized that conversations about money are a given in sales. Rather than clamming up, beating around the bush, or getting defensive, these individuals approached money conversations like just any other step in the sales process Extroverted They’re energized by conversations. And they’re curious about other people. While this one can be hard to “learn” on your own, there are plenty of strategies introverts can take to increase their extroversion too. The point is, a “people person” tended to fare better in sales than those who abhorred social contact. Optimistic Outlook They have an optimistic outlook on life. While high performers weren’t necessarily blinded by their optimism, they did tend to see the silver linings and hope for the best. Optimism in sales is crucial because it keeps you energized to go out there, do the hard work of prospecting, and stick to your cadences. It also has the added benefit of building rapport and enthusiasm in buyers too. Solid Self-Esteem It takes a lot of confidence to approach a cold prospect. And it takes a healthy self-esteem to withstand the hangups and no’s of those who aren’t interested. The best performing reps need to have a solid self-worth to excel in this industry. Personal Accountability They hold themselves accountable. High performers know that they make their own success. They make mistakes, sure. Who doesn’t? But they take ownership of those mistakes. And they know that doing so is the only way to learn and get better at what they do. B) Actions Actions. What do these successful people do? How do they spend their time? And how do they handle interacting with others? The first trait here is… NOT a people pleaser There are some industries where it pays to be a suckup. Sales is not one of them. High performers know how to get on a buyer’s good side. But they also know when to push an issue and give an assertive “no.” When it comes to sales, nice guys finish last. High emotional intelligence Emotional intelligence is a rep’s ability to 1.) control their own emotions and 2.) respond effectively to the emotions of others. High emotional intelligence makes it easier to manage buyers, connect with prospects, and build rapport. And no surprise here—high performers had more developed emotional intelligence skills too. Assertive Knowing what needs to be done and executing on that knowledge is the best way to close deals and avoid future hassles. In the world of sales, being assertive means being able to bring up issues before they turn into serious problems, turning down buyers that aren’t a great fit, and, of course, asking for the sale. It’s no wonder this is one of the most common qualities among high performers. Strong goal setting Sales is a numbers game. And the better you are at setting, tracking, and achieving those goals on time, the more of a high performer you’ll be. Productivity Success in sales isn’t for the lazy. You need to be self-disciplined enough to hit the ground running every day and keep that momentum going and going. High performers will be pros at using productivity strategies like creating task lists for the next day, having dedicated focus periods, and confining distracting tasks to certain points throughout the day. And the last trait type we identified was… C) Sales Skills  Believe it or not, you’ve got to have sales skills if you’re going to be good at skills. Who knew, right? And that means being good at… Objection Handling Buyers are going to have objections to purchasing your product. That’s not the problem. The problem is how you handle those objections. High performers come to pitches with answers ready to a prospect’s major concerns. And The best ones also know how to turn an objection into an opportunity for building enthusiasm. Influence Sales isn’t just about the product you’re hawking. It’s also about the subtle things you can do to demonstrate your expertise and influence their decision. High performers do exceptionally well at showing their authority. And as a result, they can sway their success rates in their favor. Industry Expert Similar to the last point, high performers appear knowledgeable, confident, and influential. More than just talking the talk during a pitch, they’ve built up dedicated media presences on sites like LinkedIn. They put out regular and insightful content. And that brings potential buyers to their doors. Storytelling Storytelling is an essential component for tapping into the emotions of the buyer. And when it’s incorporated into the pitch, it drives success rates through the roof. High performers are exceptional storytellers. And they know when and where to use their skill to its fullest. Negotiations Negotiations are tense. Hell, anything money-related tends to be tense. But high performers know exactly how to handle these situations effectively. And because of their adept skills in this department, both parties, the seller and the buyer, always leave negotiations happy. Summary So there you have it! 15 traits of particularly high performers, taken straight from data gathered from 10,000 sales professionals. And if you’d like to see which of these sales success traits that you have, then this link to grab your free SalesCode assessment. It will show you the traits that you have, those that you don’t and it’ll even give you feedback on your overall strengths, weaknesses and how you can improve your chances of success, . It’s free, takes 10 minutes to complete and it might change your life. And don’t forget—anyone can cultivate and develop each of these traits for themselves, no matter their level of experience or what kinds of skills they have today. All it takes is persistence, hard work, and of course, some quality sales training.    

If you have a good handle on what you’re doing, sales can end up being an incredibly lucrative career. But how do you get started? How do you get your foot in the door? What a lot of people don’t know is that you don’t have to have direct sales experience to land a quality sales rep position. All you have to do is follow the four tips in this video on how to get a sales job with zero experience under your belt. Your Dream Sales Job You need to master a lot of different skills to excel at sales. On the technical side of things, managing a wide range of sales enablement technologies is key to closing more deals in less time. CRMs, prospecting tools, video conferencing and demo software—these are all par for the course in lots of sales positions. But the technical stuff can all be learned on the job. The other skills, the soft skills, the people skills, and the self-discipline—these are the real underpinnings of sales success. And if you can cultivate these skills before landing your first sales role, you’re going to move up the ladder and boost your earning potential much quicker. Best of all, you don’t have to have a background in sales to get into the industry. All you need is a bit of tenacity, some hard work, and a strategic approach to impressing employers. In this video, I’m pointing out four ways you can get your foot in the sales door without having any experience in the biz. This video is meant specifically for newcomers to the field. But even seasoned reps can apply these principles (especially numbers three and four) in order to advance their careers even further. Alright, enough chit-chat. Let’s dive into the four tips. 1: Show How Your Existing Skills Are Applicable First up is showing how your existing skills are applicable. No one is a completely blank slate. And you might be surprised just how much your past experiences, both professional and personal, can go a long way towards making you seem more hirable for a sales role. For example, have you ever worked in retail? If so, you’ve probably had to deal with lots of face-to-face customers, both friendly and off-putting. To be successful in a position like that, you’ve got to have some decent people skills and at least some degree of emotional intelligence. Both these qualities can do wonders for improving your ability to sell on the job. Or maybe a past employer offered a service that required a lot of door-to-door cold calling. A summer job like this is great for building up resilience to rejection, which happens quite a bit in sales. Put these experiences and skills on your resume. A knowledgeable sales manager will understand just how valuable they can be. Tip number two is where the real hard work begins… 2: Be Happy to Work From the Bottom Up Be happy to work from the bottom up. Sales isn’t like other departments. If you’re in HR or IT, for example, climbing the corporate ladder is all about seniority. Who’s been there the longest? And have they put in enough time in the department to warrant a raise? With sales though, a lot of your progression speed depends on skills. What do your numbers look like? How hungry are you? And how well can you do your job? That’s why it’s so important to be willing to work from the bottom up. Even if you start in a regular old sales development role, with enough hard work on your part, you can be in a surprisingly decent account executive role in as little as six months. And that’s when you can really start scaling your income. So don’t brush off the “lower” roles—they can be a fantastic launchpad for the rest of your career. 3: Increase Your Visibility Increasing your visibility. Salespeople need to be seen as subject matter experts if they’re ever going to win big. And that means putting out plenty of thought leadership content to demonstrate that expertise. Platforms like LinkedIn and Twitter are great for this. The better your content is, the more it’ll get shown to potential buyers in your chosen industry. And you can use those connections as leverage when applying for a sales position. For instance, say you’ve been writing valuable content about accounting software, and you’ve built up a strong following because accountants find your content educational. If you then reach out to an accounting software’s hiring manager and show them how thousands of their customers actually follow you on LinkedIn, there’s no way they’re not going to at least sit down with you for a conversation. Social selling these days holds some serious weight. And the more visible you are to the right people, the better positioned you’ll be to land a quality sales job. 4: Jump Into Quality Training Jump into sales training. And not just any training. But quality training. If you want to kill it in sales, you’ve got to be always improving. And that means digging in, developing new skills, and refining the ones you’ve got. Now, there are a fair amount of sales training programs out there. But they’re not all made equal. And some are going to offer you more value than others. On top of that, some training programs only teach you a narrow range of the skills you need to be successful. That’s why I developed the Selling Made Simple Academy. This training program is designed to take your sales skills to the next level and truly crush it. Inside, we cover four distinct and equally important aspects of sales success: Understanding Your Market Getting in Front of Buyers Explaining the Value Cultivating the Mindset If you can show a sales manager that you’re committed to improving your sales skills, or better yet, have already completed a quality training program, you’ve got at least an interview in the bag. Summary And that’s all there is to it! With enough elbow grease and go-getter mindset, you can break into a lucrative and fulfilling sales role without having any direct experience. Just… Show How Your Existing Skills Are Applicable Be Happy to Work From the Bottom Up Increase Your Visibility Jump Into Quality Training That’s all there is to it. Now remember, this is all just to get you started. If you want to start raking in some serious dough, you need to be committed to improving your skills. To getting better. And not every year or month. But every. Single. Day. It’s tough work, I know. But if you keep at it, you can achieve real professional fulfillment and earn more than you ever thought possible, I promise.    

On this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Brant Pinvidic explains how to structure the first 3 minutes of your sales presentation so you can say less and get more from your sales pitch. Brant has over 20 years of experience in creating, and directing TV shows and movies. In this time Brant has developed some of the most advanced pitch and presentation techniques that he now teaches to people from all walks of life. You'll learn: Sponsored by: Free SalesCode assessment Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind. Take the free assessment Featured on this episode: Host - Will Barron Founder of Salesman.org Guest - Brant Pinvidic Pitch Presentation Expert Resources: Brantpinvidic.com Brant on LinkedIn Book: The 3-Minute Rule: Say Less to Get More from Any Pitch or Presentation Transcript Will Barron: Hi, my name is Will, and welcome to today's episode of The Salesman Podcast. On today's show, we're looking at how you can say less and get more from your sales pitches. Today's guest is Brant Pinvidic and Brant has spent over 20 years in creating, directing TV shows and movies.   Will Barron: In his time, Brant has spent, he has developed some of the most advanced pitch and presentation techniques. And now teaches this to people in all walks of life. His book, Three Minute Rule, Say Less and Get More From Any Sales Pitch Presentation. We'll link that in the show notes. It's available on Amazon and everywhere else. And with that, Brant, welcome to the show.   Brant Pinvidic: Here I am. Here I am. That's a great intro. I should bring you with me on the road.   Will Barron: I don't know about that. My intros are somewhat sloppy, but we try and do this as live as possible with the audience now. It's just a [inaudible 00:00:44].   Brant Pinvidic: I like it.   Will Barron: Right.   Brant Pinvidic: Yeah.   Will Barron: Good man. All right. Well, let's jump into it. Let me give you a bit of a scenario here. As we get into this idea, which is totally in line, you may be familiar with this, you may not be. Totally in line with what we do over at Salesman.org, which is our branding is making selling simple. So I think we're going to be on the same wavelength for a lot of this stuff, right?   You Only Have 7 Seconds To Grab Your Prospects Attention During a Sales Outreach · [01:03]    Will Barron: But let's say Sam the salesperson, he has now earned the sales presentation. He's done his cold calls. He's done his call emails. He's in the room, so to speak. So the prospect is even just like a little bit interested in hearing what they've got to say, because they wouldn't share their time with them otherwise.   Will Barron: With that said, Brant, how long does Sam have to really grab the attention of the person in the room that he's presenting to? Is this like two seconds? Seven seconds? Or have we got a little bit longer to really grab the attention of the prospect?   Brant Pinvidic: Yeah, listen, I would say in a fun soundbite is to say you have 10 seconds to get the attention. But if someone's giving you an opportunity, getting their attention isn't important as getting them the information. If you're advertising it in your marketing and that kind of stuff, the cold calls, you have very little bit to get their attention. But that's a whole other world.   “The science says that people will say and come up with a yes or a no in their mind incredibly quickly, within 10 seconds of meeting you.” – Brant Pinvidic · [02:07]    Brant Pinvidic: The world that I really deal with is that you have an opportunity to present your business product or service to somebody and you want them to say yes. That is the goal. And the truth is the science of it is that people will say and come up with a yes and no in their mind incredibly quickly. Within 10 seconds, they'll usually start with a yes or no.   Brant Pinvidic: And then if they've said, “No, I don't think this is right for me.” Then your job is to try to overcome that, which is a very unpleasant place to be. So really the science behind what the three minute rule does for you, is it helps you to elongate that process so that they're not saying yes or no in their mind, until at least you get in the valuable information.   Brant Pinvidic: And if you do it right, and if you do it perfectly, and you lead people with proper storytelling, you could extend that to three minutes. Where now they've got all the valuable information, so now they're starting to think, I like this. I want to do this. Or maybe it's not right for them, whichever. What you don't want to do is have people thinking like, nah, this isn't going to work. I don't like this person. I don't believe what he's saying, which is the most common. And then trying to win them over, which is the hard thing to do.   Brant Pinvidic: And anybody listening now will know that someone's come to pitch or present or ask you to do anything, and just think about how you've got that yes or no in your mind right away. And they'll ramble on and it's like, yeah, no, it's still a no. And that is the core. And there's science behind, it's called approach motivation on why people are driven to engage with things.   Brant Pinvidic: And it's a level of storytelling and leading your audience piece by piece that in Hollywood, we sort of perfected that. It's why you'll sit and watch an hour and a half or two hour movie, because the story is told in segments that lead you to the next segment. And in a sales process, it's the same thing. And that's, I think where people struggle the most.   Will Barron: Yeah. I think people struggle in the fact that they will perhaps understand this idea of the hero's journey or these different archetypes of stories. Everyone's seen Lord of the Rings. We could break that down into this story archetype and these step by step processes.   Your Prospects Don’t want to Know About Your Company · [03:58]    Will Barron: But then when they come to a presentation, the first thing they do is go, oh, well, our business is this size and we serve these customers. And you can see the people in the audience, essentially the prospects, just metaphorically slapping their hands on the forehead because they don't need to know any of that. They don't care about any of that stuff.   Brant Pinvidic: No.   Will Barron: So how do you-   Brant Pinvidic: I'll give you a great example of that.   Will Barron: Sure.   Brant Pinvidic: Is it was an investment opportunity that came around. My partner thinks it's a great idea. He sent me their webinar and I already had my chequebook out. I was going to write a check. I mean, it's a simple business, a car washer thing. I'm in.   Brant Pinvidic: But the people doing the webinar and the presentation got on board and they spent the first nine minutes telling me who they were. Let me do our introductions and he did his for a couple of minutes. And then he passed it to his partner. He did his. Telling me where they live, where they went to school, what they did, their family. And it's just like, you guys want to make a personal connection with me and make me feel like … And I haven't written it yet. I haven't gone in, all because of that.   Brant Pinvidic: Because then for the next, and I sort of watched the next 15 or 18 minutes, but I was off doing other things and I wasn't really paying attention. And my brain was like, I kind of don't like these guys. Not even overtly. I just was kind of like, eh. I don't even know why am I interested in this? And I just phased out. And so I didn't jump on it.   Will Barron: For sure. I feel like it's almost a sign of someone, and not in respect to this deal that you're talking about there because obviously I have no idea about them personally. But when I see salespeople do it before they come through our training, or before they listen to shows like this, episodes like this, it's almost a sign of being an amateur versus a pro.   How to Use Storytelling to Keep Your Prospect’s Attention · [05:46]    Will Barron: Because you only have to do that five, six, seven times before then you start to see the room. And surely, most people have enough emotional intelligence to go, okay, this isn't working. I need a better strategy. So with that said, Brant, how do we story tell and keep attention? Is there a structure? Is there a framework? How do we go about doing this?   “What I teach in the book is called the WHAC Method. And it stands for what is it? H is how does it work? A is are you sure? And C is can you do it? And those are the four tenets of any proper story or any pitch or presentation.” – Brant Pinvidic · [05:53]    Brant Pinvidic: So what I teach in the book really detailed, is called the WHAC Method. And it stands for what is it? H is how does it work? A is are you sure? And C is can you do it? And those are the four tenets of any proper story or any pitch or presentation.   Brant Pinvidic: The very first thing is what is it? People want to talk, like you said, they want to talk about the size of the market. They want to talk about their background. They want to talk about their history. They want to talk about the problem that people are facing. And it's like, that is not where people want to be. Your mind naturally gravitates to what is this? And if you've ever had somebody droning on about something and you've said to yourself, “Could you just stop, stop, stop? Just tell me what this is? Tell me how this works?” And that's the structure.   Brant Pinvidic: So it's what is it? Which is literally, what do you do? We are an electric vehicle company that makes controllers that make your electric vehicle company go faster, whatever it is. It's what is it? I got to know what we're doing.   Brant Pinvidic: And then how does it work is literally what is the process? You're an app that connects social media influencers together to sell products. It's like, okay, well, how does it do that? Oh, it's based on this function. You have to have a million followers. What are the structures? How does it actually work?   Brant Pinvidic: After that, after I, as the audience understand those two things, now I'm open to validating it. Now I'm open to seeing that it's real. And that's, are you sure? Does this make sense? Is there a market? Have you done this before? Do you have the patents? What is the, are you sure? How do you get your audience to believe that this is possible?   Brant Pinvidic: And then, and only after I believe and buy into those three pieces, then I care about you. Who are you? Can you actually do it? When is it available? When will the technology be ready? Have you ever done this kind of thing? Do you have a full-time job? Will this be your part-time job? Any of the actual physical elements about you and your company.   Brant Pinvidic: And the WHAC Method ironically is almost a percentage of value. Half the job is what is it? If I'm looking at this carwash investment and I don't really think car washes are a good investment, nothing else matters. If I like car washes, I think this is a good idea, I'm halfway there.   Brant Pinvidic: And then it's like, okay, how does it work? Well, we are buying 13 different car washes. We're going to rebrand them, spruce them up, raise the prices. And here's how we're going to do it. You're like, okay, I actually like that process. Now I'm 80% of the way there. Okay.   Brant Pinvidic: And if car washers are increasing and the market's good and it always flows cash flow, which is what they would do in their are you sure section. If they, at the very end of it go, the only problem is we've never run a car wash before. I wouldn't be like, oh, that's it. I'm done. I'm out. Oh, sorry. I can't do it. My brain goes, well, we can hire management. It's not that difficult. Depending on how much I liked it, I'd be like, oh, don't worry about it. You'll figure it out.   “The less you say, the simpler you make your presentation, the more desirable it will be, and the more drawn people are to you.” – Brant Pinvidic · [09:18]    Brant Pinvidic: So that's literally, maybe 5% of it if all the other pieces sink. And that structure is very hard for people to grasp because they want to tell all of the information at once. They think the more they say, the more information they give, the better they're doing. And what I teach is it's the exact opposite. The less you say, the simpler you make your presentation, the more desirable it will be. And the more drawn people are to you. It's just, that's the way it is now.   The Things You Should Focus Most On At The Beginning of a Presentation · [09:31]    Will Barron: Why? And this might be a mindset thing or a psychological thing. Why do you think people are drawn to throwing up the goal, aspirations, thoughts, opinions, the strategy, all this stuff? When it doesn't really matter at the beginning of a presentation, why? Because I want to do it as well. Why do we all want-   Brant Pinvidic: Yes, of course.   Will Barron: To do this?   Brant Pinvidic: There's two main reasons. And this is one of those things that in my seminars, a lot of times I used to have this as a small piece. And now I actually will almost take a full day to go through this because it's so painful for people. Is that the two main reasons that you do this is you understand value better than anybody. You have perfect understanding is what I call it. Perfect understanding.   Brant Pinvidic: And the other one is confidence. Okay? The two pieces of it are perfect understanding means you have lived with your idea at every level. Every nuance makes sense. It's like when you watch your favourite movie. You see every directorial turn, every breath by the actress. Every twist and turn and scene is absolutely perfect. Because it's your favourite movie, you've seen it 15 times. Now you're seeing all the elements.   Brant Pinvidic: Someone who watches it the first time, watches it as a total movie, summarises why they like it. And it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and more nuanced as they go. So what happens is you genuinely believe the value of the retail reselling of your product later on to opening up the other market. You see that as clear as day, it is perfectly obvious to you.   Brant Pinvidic: And so you have all of this value based in all of these things that nobody can understand yet, because you didn't understand it instantly. It took you time to get to the place where now you know it so well. Now that you know it so well, it all has value. But you have to go back to the beginning to be like, hey, I need to give you the foundation of understanding of the conceptual elements. Then I have to build you the process of building value in this business. Then you could start to see the other tentacles that join it and the future and all of the other things.   Brant Pinvidic: And so for you, it's very hard to know what are the foundational pieces of value if you don't take a step back and put it in this WHAC format. That's really what you need to do is to get back to the basics. And even though it feels like, oh my God, this is so important, and I'm not saying it right away.   Brant Pinvidic: It's like, I have to say, I promise you will get to say all the important things. But the first three minutes is not the place for all of those things. Your meeting could last an hour, but only with a person who's engaged and you got to bring them there.   “People ask me to train their salespeople to be more confident. I can't do that. You can't teach someone confidence. You can teach someone how to fake confidence. That's not what I do. True, actual confidence comes from the value you believe you are providing to others.” – Brant Pinvidic · [12:19]    Brant Pinvidic: And then point two this is this confidence level, is that people ask me to train their sales forces to be more confident. I'm like, I can't do that. You can't teach someone confidence. You can teach someone how to fake confidence. That's not what I do. True, actual confidence comes from the value you believe you are providing to others. That's it.   Brant Pinvidic: If you were having a wedding and I was going to cater your wedding, and I was trying to get the job as the caterer. And my chef that was going to show up and be at your wedding in person was Gordon Ramsey. How would I present that to you? Would I need tonnes of words? Or maybe I say four words. “I have Gordon Ramsey.” That's what confidence is. Because I got Gordon Ramsey to cook at your wedding. You use less words. I'm not explaining, well, he's a Michelin three star chef and he's been on … I don't do any of that.   Will Barron: Sure.   “The more words you use, the less confident you appear.” – Brant Pinvidic · [13:13]   Brant Pinvidic: So if you picture a graph, which is what I'll do in my things, the more words you use, the less confident you appear. Because if I needed to have my brother-in-law, who just got out of jail, who's never really cooked before, but has really pressured me to get him a job. And I wanted him to be the chef. How many words am I going to need to try to convince you and your bride that he should be to your chef? I would just [inaudible 00:13:32], right?   Brant Pinvidic: And that's where people get the thing, is that you undermine your confidence, because you appear to be that you don't value the end product. And you don't believe in the value you're providing. And if you had an investment that was really going to make somebody 20% by the end of the year, and you really believed it, you wouldn't go sell them it.   Brant Pinvidic: You tell them the very basics. It's this, this, and this. And this is what it is. And it's just like, that's how people who are really confident, that's how they speak. That's how they act. That's how they present because they don't need to sell.   The Reason Why Most Salespeople Focus on Features and Benefits Instead of Delivering Value During a Sales Presentation · [14:10]    Will Barron: How much, Brant, do you think this initial, wanting to just throw up information at the beginning of any sales pitch, that you kind of align then with the individual knowing so much about the market, the space, the opportunity, the product, whatever is it they're selling?   Will Barron: How much of that is actually that they, in your experience with the different trainings and that, that you do, how much of it is that they are truly just so entwined in that space and they know so much. And they forget that people aren't as clued up as them. Or how much of it is that versus how much of it is that they've actually diluted themselves? And they're just talking absolute nonsense and saying one thing, which digs a bit of a hole, which they've got to solve another thing. And you go further down a rabbit hole [inaudible 00:14:54].   Brant Pinvidic: It's almost never that. Most people are not diluted about it. They really believe in their product, business, or service. That is most people do. But the problem is that they're so excited about it and they're so passionate and they want you to see it the way they do.   “Your goal of any presentation is to translate information from your knowledge to their understanding.” – Brant Pinvidic · [15:20]    Brant Pinvidic: And I actually talk to people about, what do you think your goal is when you're making a sales presentation? Like it's to get them to write a check and buy it? It's like, okay, that's the ultimate finished product. But really your goal of any presentation is to translate information from your knowledge to their understanding. If you can take what you know and get it so they understand it, they will have to be interested because you are interested. That's why you're doing it. If they understood it the same way you did, you'd have won that.   Brant Pinvidic: So the goal is that translation step from, I know it and I want you to understand it. And when you mix the passion and the excitement, and particularly with I deal with a lot of biotech and scientific stuff. Doctors and those scientists have a lot of trouble explaining to people, the simplicity of their immunotherapy cancer drug. And what the business of that is because they want to talk about the breakthroughs.   Brant Pinvidic: And so they get so passionate that again, they're throwing up all this information, but to them it sounds totally normal and natural, like of course. And so most of it is that. Unfortunately what comes across in our world today, because we have been poisoned by the years of click baits and click funnels and over promising marketing and the elevator sales pitch, that our natural instinct is to distrust people.   Brant Pinvidic: I'd say it to these guys all the time. If your new drug cured cancer, do you think everybody would believe it? If you said, “Oh my God, we just finished our trial. I have a new drug. It cures cancer.” Would you be like, oh my God, let me get my chequebook out and give you money. Or you'd be like, yeah, whatever.   Brant Pinvidic: And I've had that with companies that have these huge grand claims. And it's like, you can't say it like that because no one will believe you. You used to be able to do that. If we could get in a time machine and go back to the 70s and 80s, you could make big claims. Would you like to lose weight and eat anything you want? And you're like, yes, I would. Okay, let me follow your thing.   Brant Pinvidic: You could lean into somebody at an elevator pitch. You'd be like, excuse me, sir. I have an investment idea that could make you 10 times your money by the end of the year. Would that interest you? Oh, yes, it would. Tell me more. That doesn't exist. Somebody in the elevator leans in and says, “I have an investment idea that'll make you 10 times your money by the end of the year, are you interested?”   Brant Pinvidic: You'd be like, get away from me. That's the last person you are going to give money to. What if he actually had an investment like that? You know what I mean? So by saying it that way, by presenting it that way, by overdoing it, he's ruined his chances. And I see that a lot.   Brant Pinvidic: And sometimes for me it's to my benefit because a lot of times I'll participate in the process of growing a company and it's like, wait, you're turning people off. You're making people doubt your technology because of the way you say it. How about we restructure it? Then people will actually look at the data and believe you. So that's the most common thing I see, is they want to bombard people with information and they don't realise it subconsciously and sometimes overtly, lowers their value.   Will Barron: Yeah. So my background's selling medical devices and at the time I was selling them all the camera systems, endoscopic camera systems I was selling in the operating rooms, were switching from 720P to 10ATP. What you're describing here is bringing this up, this really vivid memory in my mind.   Here’s How to Become More Influential During a Sales Presentation · [18:39]   Will Barron: I went out with a more senior sales rep and he said one line. I was like, right, I'm stealing that and I'm using that every single time. And he was speaking to a surgeon who had glasses on, the surgeon was like mid 60s getting on a bit, but still crushing it and really important. One of the best colorectal surgeons in Europe. And he goes, “Yeah, it's the difference between having either dirty glasses or a crappy prescription. And having brand new glasses and having them clean.”   Will Barron: And the surgeon was like, “Oh, I'll try that.” He came in. It was exactly what he said, but literally that was the difference. And then it was the conversation on the back end of, oh well, do you think this will help you make less mistakes? Do you think this is less likely, less litigation go on the back of this?   Will Barron: And it was just that, just that one phrase got the ball rolling with this surgeon that had no interest in new technology. It's not like me, because I used to love talking about it all, and the connections and wiring it all up and going and selling and training everyone on it. I would talk for days about all the nonsense behind it.   Will Barron: This studio we've got here for this podcast, I love talking about all this kind of stuff. But you try and go into that kind of conversation with a technology adverse surgeon who doesn't want it. Just wants to do colorectal surgery, not have any issues, wants to go home. And again, that metaphor absolutely changed it for me when I first picked it up.   Will Barron: And as you were talking, Brant, that story kept kind of coming back to the forefront of my mind. So is that kind of what we're looking at here? Of how to narrow all the scope of our complex products down into, is it fair to say a soundbite? Is that a fair way of saying it?   Brant Pinvidic: It's not a soundbite because soundbites make people uncomfortable. Because they know. Again, it's like, if you look like you're trying, if you look like you spent all this time to orchestrate your pitch, people are repulsed by that. We're very sensitive. We have an oversensitive, hypersensitive audience basically.   Brant Pinvidic: And so what you want to do is when you're looking for the quote/unquote soundbite, I actually would go back and be like, what is the simplest way you can explain what it is? What's the simplest way so that people get it right away? So that their next question is like, okay, and how does it do this? What happens next?   Brant Pinvidic: There's something called and then storytelling. And a friend of mine, the late great Stephen J. Cannell, wrote The A Team and all these. He coined that sort of style where it was like, this happens and then this happens, and then this happens. And there's no nuance to his stories. They're very straightforward.   Brant Pinvidic: And if you've watched Law and Order, or CSI, or any of these procedural shows, it's like, it's the same show every single week. Why? Because that storytelling is so compelling. A little piece of this leads you to this, leads you to that, leads you to this. And it's like, movies are all the same way because that structure works.   Brant Pinvidic: And so what's the very basic way you can explain what it is you do? Why it's valuable? Why someone might want it? And why you're the person to do it? And if you can lay that out clearly they go click, I got that. Now I got questions. Now I have things to talk about. Now I want to know more. Now the next phases of what you're doing have relevance.   Brant Pinvidic: Now that your surgeon understands, it's like, oh, I'm going to get a clearer picture. That'll help me see the glasses. They get that. Now they can talk about the ability to perform surgeries faster. Now they can talk about the ability to make sure they don't make as many mistakes. Now they can talk about the ability of sharing pictures with medical students.   Brant Pinvidic: All those things that may have been true, he would not even hear that until he understood exactly what was the technology, or the system, or what it was going to be there. And so when you simplify it, it changes everything. It's an exponential return. Every word that you delete gets you 10 points on the scale. I wish I had a better analogy, but that's literally what it's exponential return.   The Information Pyramid: The First Step to Saying Less and Simplifying Your Sales Presentation · [22:35]    Will Barron: Because it's one thing to say all this. But there's copywriter making millions a year who go about doing some of this, and simplifying things, and making things more tangible so they sink in our brains. For someone like me, Brant, a knuckle dragging salesperson. Maybe they don't have a big marketing team behind them to help with some of this. They're going to have to do it on their own.   Will Barron: They've got a complex product. They're selling it. And it takes multiple meetings to get the deal done. The deal sizes are large. How does a knuckle dragging sale person like me start to implement this? Do we get our pitch, put it in a Microsoft Word document and just start deleting lines until we get to something? Is there a structure and a process?   Brant Pinvidic: No.   Will Barron: To simplifying things?   Brant Pinvidic: Yes. And in the book, I walk people through the exact process because that's really what the book is. It is a step by step guide. If you're going to start from scratch with the pitch, here's how you do it. And it's actually the opposite of what you're thinking.   Brant Pinvidic: I go back to the total from square one. And I talk about what's called the information pyramid, which is the fewer words, a little bit of information, and you build more words, more information. And so I have people try to do my this meets that exercise, a great one. It's a great exercise. This meets that, which is, can you describe your business in 10 words, 15 words total? It's this meets that.   Brant Pinvidic: It's kind of like you might say a movie is, Dirty Dancing is Footloose, but at a resort. You have a this meets that. I use an example if I'm pitching a TV show. Very complex, huge, massive TV show. And I might pitch it as it's The Amazing Race for the smartest people in the world.   Brant Pinvidic: So now you've got 12 words. And even though anybody in the audience doesn't produce television or doesn't know that, I bet if you just took a second, you'd kind of be surprised how much information you now have in 15 words. You know it's Amazing Race. If you've seen that show, you know that there's people racing around solving problems, trying to get from one point to the other.   Brant Pinvidic: For the smartest people in the world, it means, yeah, it'll be people in the amazing race, they're like goofy reality show contestants. So I guess if you had really smart people, you'd probably have bigger challenges and more complex things to go over. It's like, that's pretty well what the show is.   Brant Pinvidic: We're going to take MIT graduates and people who work at Boeing and put them in the hardest, biggest challenges in the history of television to see if they can use all their smarts to cross. It's like, oh, I actually kind of knew a lot of that from 15 words.   Brant Pinvidic: And so you start with that little bit, and then I'll give my client a little bit more words to work with. And then you start to realise which ones are important. In the book, I talk about the Twitter thing. What if you had to tweet out your business? What if your pitch was a tweet, one tweet, 145 characters? Not the big new one they have, but the original, what would you say? You'd be surprised. Like, okay, now I can only use so much.   The Bullet Point System For a Perfect Sales Presentation · [25:31]   Brant Pinvidic: And then once you get a little bit of that fundamental understanding I go through what's called the bullet point system. Where you take basically a Sharpie and some Post-Its and you write out bullet points of everything of value. Write them on bullet points and you get them on a big wall. And now you can start to see, now I'll start to take those bullet points. One or two words.   Brant Pinvidic: I'm a podcast. I teach sales, that kind of thing. And you start to realise like, okay, which one tells you what it is? Which one is talking about what I am? And you can actually start to see it take shape. And then the exercise that really helps is you realise that what you want to say, that doesn't fit. And you're like, oh, damn, I really want to say this. And that's how you know that you're adding things that shouldn't be there.   Will Barron: Well obviously we recommend the book at the end of the show. We'll add it in the show notes.   Brant Pinvidic: Yeah.   Will Barron: So clearly, that's the next step if you're enjoying this episode so far. But-   Brant Pinvidic: Exactly.   How to Transition From the Attention-Grab Into The Actual Presentation · [26:27]    Will Barron: How do we end this three minute period? As in we give like the 140 character pitch. We add the bullet points. We fleshed it out a little bit. We can see the eyes of our prospects in the room brighten up, and we can see that the prop's getting ready to ask us some questions. That their brains, the gears are starting to turn. So we're onto something here.   Will Barron: How do we then transition it into, whether it's a Q and A, whether it's a more formal presentation, whatever it is after that. Once we grab people's attention and their imagination and now says, “Well, how do we transition from this is me. This is the WHAC kind of method …” into then whatever comes afterwards?   Brant Pinvidic: Yeah. And I've had many clients that their three minutes is a minute and 42 seconds because it's simple enough. Or the rest of the business is complicated enough that you're not going to condense it. So let's just get the main pieces and then we'll get into it later.   Brant Pinvidic: And so the three minutes is kind of like the maximum to get all these points in. And so I'll do investor presentations with clients that are 20 minutes long, but the first two minutes, three minutes has all the core elements. And the transition from that into the next phase is called the information and the engagement phase. And that's the way we do. That's the way we make decisions as human beings. We conceptualise, we contextualise, and then we actualize. And we go through those three steps.   Brant Pinvidic: Doesn't matter if the decision is, what shirt do I want to wear for dinner tonight? Or should I invade the Ukraine? Those are the same exact decision process. I conceptualise, I contextualise, and then I actualize.   Brant Pinvidic: So when you're looking at your three minutes, you're basically going through the concept and the context, and then the next phase is the engagement. How do I do it? How do I actualize this? And that's where the longer conversations, and the more details, and getting into the minutia of the numbers, and the history of things.   Brant Pinvidic: And so that three minutes is, here's the concept. Here's what this thing is and how it works. So now you understand that. Here's the context as it relates to you. Here's the reason why it's true. Here's the reason why it's interesting. Here's how I can validate it. Here's how I can tell you it's actually going to happen.   Brant Pinvidic: Once you get the context set, now it becomes actualization. How do we deliver it? What's the implementation strategy? I have questions about your numbers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That transition is metaphorically, now I'll take some questions. Now let's talk about what do you think? It's the pause.   Brant Pinvidic: I train people to, like, you don't need to say anything after that, because your audience is going to be like, what about this? Or I was thinking this, or how about that? Or if it isn't question time, then it's metaphorically you saying, “Okay, I know you have questions. Here are the top five questions I know you're going to have. Let me get into those.”   Brant Pinvidic: And that's a lot of times when we all build an investor presentation. It's like, okay, I've given you all the details. Here are the obvious questions. What's our burn rate? What's our track? How are we going to deal with the patent? Those things you know that people are going to want to know, but only if they have the core. And if the core is valuable to them, they'll actually put weight on those things. They'll be interested to pay attention.   Brant Pinvidic: That's why you watch a movie. And Andy Dufresne ends up in Shawshank Prison and you're like, okay, he didn't commit the murder, and it's in a really bad prison. Now I got to see what happens. If we start that movie with Andy Dufresne escapes from the worst prison in America, let me tell you why. You'd be like, yeah, whatever.   Brant Pinvidic: But we build it to you. We give you all the details. Now you want to see the story play out. If I tell you up front that he escaped from a really bad prison, you're like, okay, great. Why? When? Oh, is that really that bad of a prison? Or oh, did it … Everything falls apart. Hope I didn't spoil that movie for anybody but he escapes.   Will Barron: I was just about to say it's a spoiler alert from like 20 years ago.   Brant Pinvidic: Spoiler alert.   Will Barron: Whenever it was we, I covered, we did it in history class in high school. That's how long ago I watched it. But with that-   Brant Pinvidic: Yeah, exactly.   How to Implement the Three Minute Rule in an Email · [30:56]   Will Barron: With that, Brant, so I love this. And just to reiterate, because I thought you go down the route of you do the three minute presentation, you get them, they're all wide eyed, everyone's loving it. And then I instinctively would just shut up and then kind of invite the questions.   Will Barron: But I also love this, the second layer that you added on top of that. Of here's five things that you're probably thinking right now. And to do that in the sale context, you get to handle objections before they come up. So you can stay more in control of the objection handling process.   Will Barron: You also, if you do correctly and you've got the right background, the right understanding of the market, the right understanding of the people that you're in front of, you get to position yourself as someone who really understands the person or people that you're pitching to. Which is instantly can add credibility, a layer of rapport and anything else to it as well. So I really enjoyed that.   Will Barron: I've got one final thing to ask you, Brant. And that is, can this structure be used in other, I guess media, other than just a presentation? As in, can this be used in an email? Or like a mini slide deck? Or things like that?   Brant Pinvidic: Yeah. People ask that all the time. And by the way, it is 100% for email, for brochures, for handouts. It's just more important. It's more crucial to simplify it because now you're asking people that aren't in a conference room that have to stare at you. They have to be there for five minutes or 10 minutes or 15 minutes. They're going to have to listen to you because they've entered the room.   Brant Pinvidic: On a phone call, you've got them on the phone. So they're going to be sitting there. On an email, they don't have to read it. On a brochure, they don't have to read it. On a handout, they don't have to read it. So it's like, okay, now what? It's got to be even more succinct because you can't expect them to keep reading and go to all those points. On your 19th sentence is where your absolute core is.   Brant Pinvidic: It has to be literally we do this, it's this and this. Love to talk to you further kind of thing. And when I'm going back, like I always say to my clients like, okay, we have to get to the point where you go in your mind. It's this proverbial thing. It's like, if you don't get it after this, we should just end this. I got to go.   Brant Pinvidic: The idea is, it's like, I've given you the basics. If you're not like I want to talk more, I don't get it. I got to move on. That's the feeling you should have when you get in your presentation. Where it's like, okay, clearly you're going to want to hear more. And if you don't, I'm out of here. And so in an email or any sort of thing, you need to put it on there where it's like, okay, you got the basics. If you're not into a software solution for your point of sale thing, then we don't have anything to talk about.   Will Barron: Yep.   Brant Pinvidic: And so you have to get yourself in a mind where it's like, I've laid out the simplest version of this. There's not a lot of interpretation to be done. If this doesn't fit something that you think of, then I'm moving on. And that's like you're in a conference room and you give this pitch. It's kind of like, you're feeling like, so if anybody's not interested after hearing that we should just end this meeting right now.   Brant Pinvidic: That's got to be the mentality. Where it's like, I just laid out the key points. Everything from here is not going to sway you. You might write a bigger check, but if your brain is like, no, I don't think so, we're done.   Brant Pinvidic: And that's hard for people because they're used to fighting from the second it starts. Fighting for attention. How many times have you pitched somebody and they ask a question and you're like, oh, I'm getting to that in a minute. Just hold on. Yeah. I'll explain that. It's like, guess what? You're out of order. You have given them information in an order that leads them into a different conclusion and asked this question.   Brant Pinvidic: And when I'm done and when you read the book, you will never have, I guarantee you'll never have that happen again. No one ever will stop you and be like, wait, what about this? Because that just doesn't exist anymore. Those pieces are laid out. At the end they'll be like, okay, I have a new question because it's based on something you've said.   Will Barron: Good. I love this. It reminds me of something similar that we do. I won't go into it, I've talked about on the podcast in the past. But we use a similar structure. But perhaps even more overtly in the way that we set up sales calls. To the point of, hey, if this isn't for you, I'll tell you this isn't for you. And we can both get rock and rolling, and perhaps we can follow up later on.   Why Sales Should Not Be a Fight to the Death Kind of Thing · [35:20]   Will Barron: There's almost a feedback loop, which you alluded to there. And as soon as, when we're training sales reps, as soon as they understand that. That they're going into a conversation, it's not a fight to the death. If it isn't right for the prospect, if they're not qualified, if you can't feel like you can help them. Or they just don't get what you do, even though it's very succinct.   Will Barron: And so they've obviously just got other things on the amount of priorities. And maybe they'll come back to you in the future. Sales people then go, oh, I don't need to be panicking about this. I don't need to be stressed about this. And as long as the pipeline at the top is full enough, all the rest of it just starts to work and happen for them.   Brant Pinvidic: Yeah. And I think that the sales industry has gone down this road of I'm trying to convince you. I'm trying to sell you. I'm trying to convince you. And the truth is nobody's going to let you convince them. No one's going to let you sell them. If they feel you're selling them, they're going to resist. It's just, that's the world we live in. So accept it.   Brant Pinvidic: And what I train a little bit more is like, you're not trying to convince somebody. It's like, if I could get them to understand this, my closing rate goes up. You watch enough Instagram or TikTok, and you see all these idiot sales professionals that are doing these little videos trying to tell you how to close this and handle objections.   Brant Pinvidic: And it's like, oh my God. You're just asking people to walk into a minefield of rejection because people are sensitive to it. We used to tell salespeople to use your client's name. Jeff, Bob, do you think? How about this, Bob? It's like, could you imagine if someone did that to you today?   Will Barron: It's gross, right?   Brant Pinvidic: Could you imagine how your response would be? You'd be just like, oh, this guy. And that is still a lot of the sales process, is people doing things that are as ineffectual as that. And asking those leading questions like if we came to deal terms today, is there any reason why you wouldn't move forward?   Brant Pinvidic: Is like, I know what you want to get out of that. And it's a great idea, but everybody's now ready for that phrase. Everybody's looking for that what do we have to do to get you in this car today? As soon as you say that, your credibility just starts to drain. And then it's like, oh, will you say anything to make this sale? Because that means anything you've said, I now have to question.   “I've had really good luck with training sales organisations to come into the process of, if I can make you understand this, you'll be interested. If you understand it and you're not interested, it's not right for you.” – Brant Pinvidic · [37:48]    Brant Pinvidic: And that is the danger of this. And I've had really good luck with training sales organisations to come into the process of, if I can make you understand this, you'll be interested. If you understand it and you're not interested, it's not right for you. But under no circumstances will I leave here without you understanding fully the value that this represents. I don't need to convince you. Because your audience is smarter than you about what's valuable to them. End of story.   Will Barron: It's gross.   Brant Pinvidic: And so you trying to-   Will Barron: The way I frame this up-   Brant Pinvidic: Talk to them just doesn't work.   Will Barron: Brant, is the podcast started off. This is like six years ago now, or this is episode 740, something like that. Because I was doing okay, medical device sales, earning decent money, but I wasn't the top of the leaderboard. So I'll reiterate the story because people, the OG listeners will know this, but we've had a bit of a growth spurt recently.   Will Barron: So I came home one day in Leeds, in me little terraced house. And I sat there. I was like, right, how do I get better at sales? And it was a bunch of dudes and women from the 90s with shoulder pads in their jackets. Going, “Hey, here's five ways to close a sale.” Here's three ways to essentially manipulate someone into staying on the phone for you for like 10 minutes longer.   Will Barron: And I sat there and I was like, right, if I tried. And the best and I did it verbatim and I was great at it. If I did any of this bullshit with the surgeons that I was selling to, they'd be like right, dickhead, out of there.   Brant Pinvidic: Out you go.   Will Barron: You'd never get back in. You're gone. You never get in the operating room again. The surgeons would have a lot of power. They wouldn't always necessarily have the budget, you'd be dealing with the CFO in that situation. And I'm sure they'd be the same way. But you just instantly lose access.   Will Barron: You can't say all this weird crap to someone, and this goes into what you're teaching here, Brant. You can't give them a list of features and benefits either when they've got their hands in a patient and they're trying to achieve something. And you're there to demo a product that makes this easier, simpler, more effective, less risk of litigation, whatever it is, on the back of it. You need to be able to, as I said, this is like the difference between having dirty glasses and clean glasses, whatever it is.   Will Barron: And this whole podcast started off on the back of it. There was no good, multi-billion dollar a year industry, the sales training industry, there was no good content. And so it came on the back of me interviewing experts in the field like yourself, Brant, to try and pull this information back into sales training.   Salespeople Need to Forget About Old School Sales Techniques and Embrace What Works in the Modern Age · [40:12]   Will Barron: So I totally hear what you're saying when you talk about these old school sales techniques. It didn't work on surgeons then, now it just doesn't work on Joe Blogs when he picks up the phone. He's just going to, go, okay.   Brant Pinvidic: And those are the obvious ones. This is the problem, is that most people know the obvious ones as a salesman. But what they really underestimate is the ones that you still think people don't pick up on. It's like, no, you have no idea how hypersensitive the audience is.   Brant Pinvidic: And I'll give you example. I did a lot of work with Harley Davidson on their sales process. And as I'm in the dealership, it's like they've trained their sales people to be like, here's the features and the idea of the Harley. And it's like, wait. They had so much trouble with, is that the customers were coming into the showroom with more knowledge about the models, and the years, and when this option was available, and how often it is, and the features. They actually knew more about the features and the benefit of a Harley Davidson than the sales people did.   Brant Pinvidic: So the sales people are trying to compete for knowledge. And it's like, that is not why someone is walking into the showroom. They want to sit in it, they want to see it, and they want to know how they can get it. And it's like when the entire sales force started to train in a different mentality, a different mindset, which is like, somebody walks in, kind of wants this anyways. Your job is to facilitate how they can put it in their driveway. And that's it.   Brant Pinvidic: You don't need to convince them that it's better than this other motorcycle. If you think that's your job, you have missed the boat. Obviously the sales have done very well over the last little bit. I'll take credit for it, pandemic aside. But the truth is it was a matter of that entire level of confidence coming to a different thing. Where it's like, I don't need to tell you all the details.   Brant Pinvidic: If you ask how many horsepower it has versus the night version, okay, I'll tell you. But I don't need to come in with that guns blazing being like, here's what it is. It doesn't make any sense. And they found just like, not only, I mean lots of things, but besides the speed of transactions.   Brant Pinvidic: How fast they were able to move to people through because it's like, okay, you come in there, you want to look at, can I get it? How much is it? What's the financing? When is it in? Can I get it customised? Like those are the real things people are after. Not like this would look so great in your driveway. Wouldn't your friends be impressed if you drove? You know what I mean? You don't want to drive a Honda, a Gold Wing, come on. None of that. None of that.   Will Barron: I've got-   Brant Pinvidic: If you think a salesman can convince you that your car is better than the … And that's the same thing in the car industry. Do you think someone's, a salesman is going to convince you that the Audi is better than the BMW? Or vice versa? That's not the way the world works now. Right? It's like-   Will’s Experience With a Salesperson Using Cringy Sales Strategies From the 90s · [42:54]    Will Barron: I went into BMW. I've told this tale in the podcast before, but this just iterates the point. We'll wrap up with this. I'm conscious of time. I went to BMW with me Mrs. She had a BMW previously. I owned a expensive, fast BMW at the time. Went in, we just wanted to test drive it. We were going to test like a VW and an Audi, whatever it was as well.   Will Barron: And then it was probably going to happen. The deal was probably going to happen. Went and test drove it. The salesperson was using all these close ended questions and weird selling questions from like the 90s. You know if the test drive goes well, you're going to make a purchase today. All over and over and over. And I can see it all a mile away.   Will Barron: Me Mrs. Is a doctor. So she was kicking me under the table at one point, because I was laughing at how gross it was. And she was like, “Now, give him a chance,” kind of thing. We knew the price because we'd been online, done the configurator, and we knew the monthly amount that it was going to cost. The guy wouldn't tell us the price.   Will Barron: We told him the budget and clearly the budget must have been close to the price, or a bit lower. So he kept going up there. “Right, let me speak to me boss. I'm going to come back it.” And he'd come back in and be like, “I spoke with me boss, can you do a deal today? If you can do a deal today, then we'll get it down to your budget.”   Will Barron: So I was like, well, yeah, but what's the price? And he would not tell us the price. This went on for maybe like 45 minutes until me Mrs. then just walked off. It was embarrassing.   Brant Pinvidic: Yeah. Isn't that crazy?   Will Barron: It was insane. All he had to do was just tell us the price. And then if it's 100 quid either way, who cares? He probably would've just went for it. But he was so driven. And obviously he was being coached by someone else in the room that he kept popping in and out of.   Brant Pinvidic: Yes. Oh my God.   Will Barron: The sales manager extraordinaire who was in there. The sales manager was only there for one day for whatever reason as well. So it had to be done today. It was absolutely gross. And we ended up getting a totally different car. Went to the next dealership, bought the next car in an instant like that. Just because this dude was just so backwards.   Will Barron: And it was because we knew the price, we knew what we wanted. We knew even the horsepower and all that kind of stuff because it was a smart car kind of thing. I'd sussed all that out. We just needed the price from him. Couldn't get the price and so he lost the deal.   Brant Pinvidic: Yeah. And all he needed to do was take a step back.   Will Barron: Yep.   Brant Pinvidic: And understand what is he actually there to do? He's actually there to convey some information to you. One is, how scarce are these cars? How many do we have on the lot? Is this a time to get a good deal? Will this car be available? The things that could actually influence your buying decision.   Brant Pinvidic: And I always say them is like, what is the truth? If you have lots of cars on the lot and you're hoping to get a sale, then you can explain to them that it's like this is the process. And so you can explain like, hey, it is a good time to get a good deal. Okay. That's going to make me want to buy more because it's a good time to get a deal. We have a lot of cars on the lot.   Brant Pinvidic: If you're trying to play into like, can I emotionally get you into this thing? People buy off emotion. It's like, that's not really true anymore. People actually are scared to buy in emotion now. More than ever before. If you get them emotional about things, they actually recoil a little bit and be like, oh God, am I making a decision? Am I making a mistake here? And that's the same thing as a car dealer. You don't want to be part of that at all.   Will Barron: I didn't even want a deal, Brant. I just wanted-   Brant Pinvidic: I know.   Will Barron: They could have sold us a car by going, “Hey, we'll drop a car off at your house. You can go do a test drive. We'll pick you up in an hour and we'll email you the paperwork.” They would've done a deal. That's how crazy it was.   Parting Thoughts · [46:29]    Will Barron: Right. Well, without rant over, mate, I appreciate you. I appreciate your insights. Tell us more about the book, where we can find it? And then more about the training and everything else that you are up to as well.   Brant Pinvidic: Yeah. So the book's The Three Minute Rule. You can go to Three Minute Rule.com or my website, Brant Pinvidic.com. There's all that kind of information in there. Book will help you do all that stuff.   Brant Pinvidic: And then yeah, I like to do lots of stuff in lots of companies and happy to talk to people about what they're doing. I love, we've got this little movement of this, say less to get more. And as it grows, it's really exciting. Because it's one of those things where people are just like, oh my God. People get it now. People understand what I'm saying. And everything comes from that, from an understanding. It's very exciting. I'm really happy that it's gone so well.   Will Barron: Amazing stuff. Well, we'll link to the book, everything you're up to, your website, everything else in the show notes of this episode, over at Salesman.org.   Will Barron: With that, Brant, I enjoy your energy, mate. Your charisma, that comes across amazingly. I enjoy the kind of structure you've given us for these three minute beginning of pitches and the transitions and all of that as well. I appreciate that. And with that, I want to thank you again for joining us on The Salesman Podcast.   Brant Pinvidic: Awesome. Thanks, man.  

On this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Andy Paul explains why you should stop trying to trick your prospects and why you should focus on winning more sales. Andy is the host of the “Sales Enablement with Andy Paul” podcast and author of “Sell Without Selling Out: A Guide to Success on Your Own Terms”. You'll learn: Sponsored by: Free SalesCode assessment Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind. Take the free assessment Featured on this episode: Host - Will Barron Founder of Salesman.org Guest - Andy Paul Sales Enablement Expert Resources: Andy on LinkedIn Book: Sell Without Selling Out  Andypaul.com Transcript Will Barron: Hi, my name is Will, and welcome to today's episode of the Salesman Podcast. On today's show we'll look at why you need to stop persuading if you want to win more sales. And today's guest is Andy Paul. Andy is the host of the Sales Enablement With Andy Paul podcast, and author of Sell Without Selling Out, A Guide To Success On Your Own Terms. And with that, Andy, welcome back again to the show.   Andy Paul: Will, thank you for having me.   Will Barron: You're more than welcome, sir. I'm glad to have you back on. We just had a nice tune wag before we click record. Tonnes of value in that conversation…   Andy Paul: We did. We did.   Stop Persuading Prospects · [00:30]   Will Barron: … so I appreciate that mate. But, let's get into the topic. Let's not diddy daddle too much. Let me ask you this mate, we're going to talk about how not persuading prospects, this is going to seem a bit backwards to the audience until it kind of pans out. We're going to talk about how not persuading prospects is going to win us more deals. But, isn't the whole point of working in sales, being a salesperson, to persuade a prospect, to make a purchasing decision, so that we get some nice commission checks in our back pocket at the end of the quarter?   “I don't believe that our job fundamentally as the sales people is to persuade someone to purchase our product. I think that our job as sellers is to listen to our buyers, to understand what are the most important things to them, both in terms of the challenges they face and the outcomes they want to achieve, and then help them get that. And I think that when you have that mindset and that perspective, what your job is, you use a different set of actions to get to the end result.” – Andy Paul · [01:07]    Andy Paul: Well, we certainly want the commission checks. The question is how do we get there? Right? So yeah, no, I don't believe that our job fundamentally as the sales people is to persuade someone to purchase our product. I think that our job as sellers is to listen to our buyers, to understand what are the most important things to them, both in terms of the challenges they face and the outcomes they want to achieve, and then help them get that. And I think that when you have that mindset and that perspective, what your job is, you use a different set of actions to get to the end result.   Why Salespeople Stubbornly Continue Trying to Persuade Prospects · [01:40]    Will Barron: And that makes total sense, right? Everyone who's listening to the show right now, Andy, have just gone, “Yeah, of course.” But why is that common sense, but it doesn't get implemented? It doesn't happen for a lot of sales people that way.   Andy Paul: Well, I think a couple things. One is, I think people come into the profession with this idea of how they have to act to be a salesperson, which they picked up through maybe people that they know that are in sales, but certainly through popular culture, and so on. The way sales people are persuaded, or excuse me, portrayed for ages. But then most importantly, it's really how sellers are socialised and educated about what their jobs are. And in most cases they are told, “This is your job. Your job is go and persuade someone to buy your product.” And it's like, all right, well, you can push. But, the alternative is, maybe I can exhibit some leadership and inspire the buyer and influence the choices and trade offs the buyer makes, and achieve the same result perhaps with greater predictability and in less time.   Will Barron: So, the audience will know this by now, we do this show as live as we possibly can. I'm choking, choking on air, literally as I-   Andy Paul: You're choked up by what I just told you. Yes, I know.   Will Barron: It upsets me. It upset to me Andy. So, excuse me. With that mate, with that, we'll try and cut this out after the show, of course.   Andy Paul: That's fine.   The Root Cause of Pushy Sales Behaviours · [03:12]    Will Barron: Oh man. Okay. So with that, who is to blame? Are we blaming individual sales people here for not having agency over their own kind of profession, over their own career, over their own actions? Is this media and Hollywood. Obviously there's a stereotype of the used car sales person out there that we can perhaps lean into as well. The Wolf Of Wall Street, these kind of shows and films. Or, is it sales management? Or, is it the customer who's accepted this behaviour for long enough that it's then becoming ingrained as the correct way to do things? If we have to blame someone, who are we going to blame?   Andy Paul: If we had to blame someone, yeah. It's not the individual salesperson. If anything, it starts at management, right? Is increasingly we see managers, when I said increasingly, is use this great technology that's available for sales. And instead of using it to sort of fundamentally reset how we engage with our buyers, what it's typically in the hands of most managers being used to reinforce these previously bad behaviours that existed in sales, these pushy salesy behaviours. In fact, perhaps using the technology to amplifying those behaviours. And so I think it starts, blame maybe too strong a word because this is part of a tradition that's going on for a long time. But, we haven't used the tools available to us to, so I said, sort of fundamentally rethink and reset the relationship we have with buyers.   How to Rethink The Way You Sale From Less Persuading to More Leading · [04:45]    Will Barron: So the salesperson's listening to this now, they're driving along, their rocking and rolling. They're excited about you being on the show, Andy. They're going, “Okay, that makes sense. But I already do a discovery call and I already I listen to some of Andy's podcasts and some of Will's podcasts. I already ask some, what I consider decent questions. But, I still find that the buyer has like status quo. There's confirmation biases of decisions they made in the past. There are other elements that like hold them steadfast in this position where I know that if they leverage our product, they buy into what we offer, we can help them.” How does that salesperson who's listening right now, who perhaps, I think you've used and I'm mirroring your wording here carefully, Andy, they are persuading buyers having done discovery to get the deal, to get them over the line. How do they need to rethink the process and perhaps do less persuading and more leading? What practically does that look like?   Andy Paul: Well, what practically looks like for discovery is, in hands of most sellers, the way they're trained is, okay, you've got a playbook for discovery. You've got these questions we typically ask to this persona within this ICP. You should expect to get this type of answer. Based on receiving this type of answer, this is how you respond. And what happens then is discovery turns out being like a survey taking, right? I collect some amount of information, but I don't understand a thing, right? I know this information, but I don't understand why it's important to the buyer. And this is the big gap that exists in discovery oftentimes is, I sort of know what they sort of think, but I don't really understand why. I don't understand what's most important to them in terms of the challenges they're trying to face.   Andy Paul: I haven't helped them think more deeply and broadly about that challenge with the questions I'm asking because I was just gathering information. Rather than using questions as a way to help the buyer think differently about the problems they're trying to achieve or the problems they're trying to solve and the outcomes they can achieve. So, there's a gap between knowing something and understanding it is a big difference, and it requires going deeper with the question. So in my book I lay out in a chapter on curiosity is layout six question types that if you use them in combination is you will surface eventually what is most important to the buyer. And then when you that information, when you know what's most important to the buyer, then you can say, “Okay, now I can work with the buyer because we know what the target is. We know what the real target is. I can work with the buyer now to try to influence the choices and trade offs they make about how to achieve their desired outcomes.”   The Process of Getting The Buyer to Understand What You’re Selling Instead of Trying to Persuade Them · [07:20]    Will Barron: So is it a case of getting the buyer to understand where they are, and you go through this process as well, right? Allowing the buyer to then, or enabling the buyer, helping them with your industry expertise. Clearly you've probably sold this product more times than the buyer has bought it. Get them to visualise, understand where they could be. And then is our job then to enable the buyer to see how they get from one place to another? As opposed to have a stick behind the back of the head, whacking them to get from the start line, to the end line.   “If you're doing a persuasion based sales approach, you’re pushing the buyer. And I think sales is really a leadership role. What you're trying to do is you're trying to help the buyer understand what's most important to them. But then you're going to inspire them to go on this journey with you to co-create what this vision of success will look like when the buyer invests and uses your products and your services. Because, really when the buyers make a purchase decision, what are they buying? They're not buying the product. They're buying the vision of what that product can do for them and the outcomes they can achieve.” – Andy Paul · [07:52]    Andy Paul: Yeah. Right. I mean, so just fundamentally you can even break down even further and say, “Look,” if you're doing a persuasion based sales approach, it's pushing, right? You're pushing, pushing, pushing the buyer. And I think sales is really a leadership role, right? What you're trying to do is, you're trying to help the buyer understand what's most important to them. But then you're going to inspire them to go on this journey with you to co-create what this vision of success will look like when the buyer invests and uses your products and your services. Because, really when the buyers make can purchase decision, what are they buying? They're not buying the product. They're buying the vision of what that product can do for them and the outcomes they can achieve. And I think that's more fundamentally a leadership aspect than a push, push, push aspect.   Will Barron: So, let's see if we can go practical with this. So I know when I'm selling our Selling Made Simple academy training programme, right? I do what we're describing here and I'll start one place and I'll say, “Well, the training's going to allow us do this. It's going to free up your time. It's going to do this. It's going to do that.” And then I'll allow the prospect to, and I call them a prospect loosely, because usually they're fans of the show already. There's a bit of relationship already there. So, perhaps a few steps ahead of what the audience might be with their potential customers.   The Importance of Trust and Credibility When Trying to Win More Sales · [09:43]    Will Barron: But then we get to the point of, “Well, what do you actually want to achieve? Forget your sales target. Let's go beyond that and let's see where you need to be in five, 10 years, what you need to earn to get to that point.” And then you see their start to open it wide and you can then go, “Well, okay, well our training maybe can help with this or maybe it can't help with this.” And we go down the kind of giving the solution to the problem, right? And again, I'm conscious I'm coming from a perspective of the audience. By the time I get on a call with them, whether it's a sales leader, the VP of sales, to sell our training product, they already know everything about it. They already know all about me. There's a layer of trust rapport there. So, with that said, Andy, what do we do if we're selling something like office furniture or accounting software, or something like this where there's perhaps, and maybe you can help me with this, but instantly I'm struggling to come up with some grand vision for the cheap office furniture that I'm selling. You know what I mean? Versus what I just described of a transformation, which is going to change both your career, but perhaps your personal life as well.   Andy Paul: Not every price, you had that vision on the first call, right? So, there's a process. You have to build this connection with the buyer as a human being. You have to build a level of credibility and trust, which you talked about. You've built through your podcast with your audience and the people you're talking to, is what they've done is said, “Look, okay, we've built that connection.” So I talk about four pillars of selling in, in my book, connection, curiosity, understanding, generosity. You've built that connection, that trust. So now what the buyer says, “Look, I'm going to open the door to your influence Will, right? I have this trust in you. I'm going to enable you to come in and sort of stick your nose into our business to really learn what is most important to us. What are the outcomes we're trying to achieve.”   “If you go in from a position of trust, you're going to be able to go much deeper and get deeper and better insights into what the buyer's trying to achieve than you would without trust.” – Andy Paul · [11:21]    Andy Paul: And as you know, I mean, when you talk to sellers, two people can ask the same question and get two dramatically different answers, based on the connection and the trust that they've built up with that buyer. So that's why starting with that human connection is so important, leads into your curiosity. We use our curiosity to explore the things that are unfamiliar to us. Well, again, if you go in from a position of trust, you're going to be able to go much deeper and get deep and better insights into what the buyer's trying to achieve than you would without them.   Why You? How to Create a Seamless Buying Experience That Gets the Buyer To Choose Your Product or Service · [11:32]    Will Barron: How much of the practical skill of doing this, Andy, comes from building trust, building rapport, having the buyer going into the conversation with them seeing you as someone who can often value as opposed to a pesky salesperson who's just trying to suck money from their pocket, right? How much of this comes up from framing the conversation? How much of it is enabled by framing the conversation up as, this is a consultative call, as opposed to a, I don't know, maybe you wouldn't do this on a cold call. You'd use your cold call to set up a meeting, right? But, how much of this comes from the perception of the buyer of you versus what you are able to do on the call itself?   “Let's take your training products, great training product. But, the fact is there's what, a million sales trainers out there? And when the buyer is talking to you and they're valuing products saying, “Well, the products are basically all the same. So what's the difference?” Well, the difference is how I'm experiencing Will versus experiencing John or experiencing Bill, who's also trying to sell to us. And that's where the difference is really made, is how the buyer experiences you in this process.” – Andy Paul · [13:01]    Andy Paul: Almost all of it, right? And so I write about my book is, there's a question that all buyers ask of you as seller, excuse me, I call that the why you question, right? Why should I invest my time in you? Why should I invest my intention in you? Why should I trust you? And that's something that they answer through how they experience you, right? It's a question they're not really verbalising, but they're just being asked nonetheless. And so it starts with really small things, right? What's the first impression you create with a buyer? And are you being intentional about trying to create a positive first impression? Right? Because at the end of the day, every interaction that we have with a buyer, is part of their buying experience with us. And we know on a day, the age that we operate in today, let's take your training products, great training products. But, the fact is there's what, a million sales trainers out there? And when the buyer is talking to you and they're valuing products saying, “Well, the products are basically all the same. So what's the difference?”   “When you have the opportunity to interact with the buyer, it doesn't matter in what form that takes, whether it's an email or a voice call, Zoom call, in person meeting, the buyer has invested their time and attention in you. You have to enable them to earn a return on that time and attention. And that just doesn't happen by coming in and sort of trying to flog your product. It happens by sort of being in this process together with the buyer, right? Really understanding what's important to them. Being focused on how can I help you achieve what's most important to you? And then you become the differentiator, not the product or the company.” – Andy Paul · [13:35]   Andy Paul: Well, the difference is how I'm experiencing Will versus experiencing John or experiencing Bill, who's also in trying to sell to us. And that's where the difference is really made, is how the buyer experiences you in this process. So, what it means is that when you have the opportunity to interact with the buyer, doesn't matter in what form that takes, whether it's an email or a voice call, Zoom call, in person meeting, the buyer has invested their time and attention in you. You have to enable them to earn a return on that time and attention. And that just doesn't happen by coming in and sort of trying flog your product. It happens by sort of being in this process together with the buyer, right? Really understanding what's important to them. Being focused on how can I help you achieve what's most important to you? And then you become the differentiator, not the product or the company.   Why You Need to Become a Leader in Sales Instead of Trying to Spam the Marketplace · [14:21]    Will Barron: I think you alluded to this, you've mentioned technology a few times in the show so far Andy. This is an important question, but it's going to have an obvious answer. How does this translate into the world that we're living in right now in modern B2B sales, where seemingly most salespeople just want to sit behind spammy, automated, semi personalised cold emails, and just flog the whole marketplace, hoping that they find the right person, at the right place, with the right pain, at the right time, who will maybe get on a call with them? How does what we're talking about here, the strategy of leading through the sale and adding value each step, and you being the experience differentiates versus the competition, how does that translate into this world of just spamming crap at people and praying that someone responds?   Andy Paul: Well, you're going to trigger me here. It requires a culture change, right? There are many, many industries right now where the win rate on their most qualified opportunities is acceptable, considered acceptable if it's like a 20%. Meaning you're winning one out of five of your most qualified opportunities. Yeah. I mean, a lot of companies are playing the game just as you described. They're getting really good at, we're going to put a tonne of opportunities through our demand gen and lead gen and to the top of the funnel. And if we're just moderately effective at selling, we'll close, yeah, 20% of our qualified opportunities. And that will be enough to enable us to grow. But, that parties not going to last forever. At some point, you, as an organisation, you as an individual, need to learn how to sell. Because, Hey, we're in the midst of 14 years of uninterrupted economic growth. But Hey, we know things can go off the rails pretty quickly.   Andy Paul: I mean, look at the unfortunate situation in Europe, in Eastern Europe. I mean, who knows what that leads to? We fall into a recession or something. Yeah. Those ways aren't going to work as consistently and as reliably. You're going to have to learn how to win a higher fraction of the opportunities, meaning that you're going to really pay attention to how you sell. And unfortunately, many cases it's not. And so there are small companies and midsize companies have taken the wrong lesson from some of the successes of the companies that have grown using these methods, thinking that's that method that's enabled the company to grow, that sales method. When actually it's the product being in the right place at the right time.   Will Barron: Now, respectfully, I'm trying to do this politely, but you'll understand. You have been through and been in the game for a lot longer than what I have, right?   Andy Paul: Yes.   The Changes to Expect in Sales Incase of a Recession · [17:00]    Will Barron: So, you were working through the 2008 recession and there's been ups and downs since then and prior to that, right? Because obviously, what's going on in Ukraine, what's going on elsewhere in the world, we're due just a massive recession or like a nose dive, just load of crap are getting thrown at our plate in the not distant future. It's inevitable at this point. How does sales change in that period? And is it the people, when the person's really get, and we've just come through COVID and all this other stuff as well. So, that's perhaps a taste of some of what's to come. But, how does sales change in that kind of environment? Does the spam work then, or does it just go down to zero at that point? And then it's down to salespeople who actually are capable of selling, capable of leading, capable of guiding someone through a sales process and adding value every step of the way? Which side do we want to be on when the shit hits the fan, Andy?   “You can't really help somebody get to that position of understanding what's the shortest time to the value of your solution if you don't really understand what would have the most value for them.” – Andy Paul · [18:58]    Andy Paul: Yeah, well, not the former. It's more the latter, right? Because, there's going to be more people chasing fewer dollars at that point, right? So this idea of differentiation through how you sell becomes more crucial. And your ability to ensure that every time you interact with a buyer, that you're helping them make progress toward making the decision, hugely important. Because, and I said, you become the differentiator. And you're saying, “Gosh, when I'm working with you, when I understand what's really most important to you, then I can help you sort of work through this problem.” Which is, we see when things are tough and this came through at sort of the beginning of COVID, is yes, some decisions were deferred. But, the ones that went forward were the ones that had the shortest time to value for the purchaser. And you can't really help somebody get to that position of understanding, what's the shortest time to value with your solution, if you don't really understand what would have the most value for them.   The 80/20 Rule in Sales · [19:10]    Will Barron: What's the 80 20 of getting to this point? Because it seems like what we need is the ability to ask great questions. We also need industry expertise. We need to understand the industries that our customers are selling into, or the market that they're servicing. But, this is stuff that maybe takes five years, 10 years, of head down sales experience, right? To nail some of this. Whether it's the contacts within the space and all this kind of stuff and building-   Andy Paul: Well, some.   Will Barron: So, whats-   Andy Paul: Some. I mean, I would argue that, I mean, fresh out of school, I knew nothing about business and the customers, my customer's businesses and so on. Yet, I had some success right out of the gate. And what it came down to for me was this ability to ask questions, right? And to make sure that continue to ask questions, so I made sure I really understood the buyer and their concerns and what they were trying to achieve. And I just got better as I added industry expertise to it and had more experience in selling. But I would say if you start with the basics, as I talk about in my book, anybody can have these conversations, regardless of the level of expertise they have.   Will Barron: So the ability to ask questions is perhaps from a timeframe perspective is the 20% that can give us 80% of the results?   Andy Paul: Yes.   Will Barron: Because that's what we want to ramp up to.   Andy Paul: What you're driving at. Yep.   The Only Framework You Need to Ask Better Questions · [20:42]    Will Barron: So with that said, then, and I realise this is kind of going against the whole premise of this show. Is there a framework to asking questions? Is there a structure, not necessarily a script? But, other than just being curious, which, when I was selling medical devices I was insanely curious. I loved talking to surgeons about this insane equipment that I was passionate about selling. I know it sounds ridiculous to anyone who does not really understand that space, but it was such a cool environment to be in. A cool product. I'm a massive tech nerd, right? I love chatting about all the different, even how things were cabled up, right? It was insane. I loved all that kind of stuff. So I was insanely curious. So, with curiosity, hope we can hopefully tick that box.   Will Barron: If you're in a crappy job selling to crappy people and a crappy product, you need to perhaps change what you're doing, if possible, right? That will a lot of boxes automatically. But, are there any structure to asking questions or any questions that we should be asking? Is there any kind of framework to be able to enable us to ask better questions, especially if we are perhaps not at the point where we can do this kind of unconsciously competently at the moment?   Andy Paul: Right. Yeah. So again, hard not to flog my book necessarily, but yes. In my book, I write about six sort of core question types that sellers can ask and should ask. And the thing is, to reach a level of mastery, it's how you combine the questions to help you get to where you want to go. But, examples of questions are, and one of my favourite for this are I call impact questions. And so the impact questions are causing the buyer to think about what the impact of making a change would be, or the impact of not making change. But, to quantify what that impact is in one regard or another. And it's really useful. You use these impact questions sort of in layered forms, right? What's the impact on the organisation of making a change, impact on your team, impact on you personally.   Andy Paul: But, when you get people thinking about, “Wow, what would this mean for me, right? What will the impact be? How do I quantify what that be,” whether it's time spent or time invested or dollars or whatever. I start thinking more deeply about what it is they're trying to solve from a challenge standpoint and what they potentially can achieve. One example I talk about in the book, another I talk about in the book are insight questions. We always, not always, but you hear people talk about, Hey, insight led selling is we have to be prepared with commercial insights to tell our buyers. True. But, I think more importantly than telling insights is conveying insights through the questions you ask. And so where the buyers sort of arrives at that insight by themselves.   “An insight question is the type of question you'd ask a buyer where you're going to ask them something about their business that they should reasonably be expected to know, but possibly don't.” – Andy Paul · [23:25]    Andy Paul: So an insight question is the type of question you'd ask a buyer where it's, you're going to ask them something about their business that they should reasonably be expected you to know, but possibly don't, right? So, it's something that's going to cause buyer sort of sit up and think, “Oh, that's really interesting. I hadn't thought of that before.” The fact that you asked that question, in their mind they're going, “Clearly, they've got some industry expertise to come up with this, because this is an insight into my business.” And then a little bit of fear missing out because they know this from the people they're working with, the companies they're working with, what am I missing? So it's just an example, two of the six question types that you can actually, as you get into the book and you read them you think about, okay, how can I pair these up now to sort of say, “Okay, this will become sort of a standard questioning routine I use maybe to open the door to a little deeper insight into what's most important to the buyer.”   Practical Example of an Insight Question · [24:20]    Will Barron: What would be an example, I'm kind of putting you on the spot, but I know you can handle it. What would be an example of one of these questions for selling B2B sales training? Or you can use a different kind of niche you like. But, what would be an example of a couple of these questions in that kind of context?   Andy Paul: Well, I would start with an impact question, right? Or we could even start with an insight question. I mean, for example, in my consulting business, in the past, a question I used with CEOs was, “All right, so tell me, how many hours of selling time does it take you on average to move a prospect from initial point of contact to a close?” And the response was generally crickets. Now, the problem with that is this is one of the most core questions you should know the answer to as a CEO, as a sales leader, because this really dictates how productive your sellers are being. How many dollars of revenue are they generating per hour of actual selling time? And this dictates what your productive capacity as an organisation is. How can you really forecast unless you know this? But more importantly is it gives you information about how effective your sellers are in front of the buyer.   Andy Paul: So, if you're selling sales training, this becomes pretty important because then you say, “Okay,” you want to look at that data and say, “Okay, well, how does John differ from Jennifer in the dollars of revenue they generate per hour selling time?” You now suddenly have some information about again, how effective they are in those moments that matter with the prospects, and what you might need to do to change and to train them up. Could be you'll learn some of that through listening to their calls or whatever. But that's just one sort of question that gives you some, it's a conversation trigger. It's a discovery trigger with the buyer. Because, if they don't know the answer, they are certainly curious to find out what the answer is.   How to Come Up With Insightful Questions For Your Buyer · [26:19]    Will Barron: Love it. Absolutely love it. Okay. With that said then, how do we come up with some of these questions? Right? Because it seems like this isn't something that we're doing on the fly. We're not coming up with this magic in the moment. These are somewhat thought out beforehand, and maybe we need to test some of this as well when we're looking for prospects to have crickets, to have bright eyes on the Zoom call, and go, “Hmm, great question.” And start kind of stumbling in their words, getting back to us. Is this a case of getting the sales team together, brainstorming ideas, leveraging different people's experience? Is there a process that we can go through to write these kind of questions? How do we go about formulating a series of these questions so that hopefully the audience can start using some of this today?   “Insight questions require that you really understand what your buyers are doing with your product and service.” – Andy Paul · [27:03]    Andy Paul: Right. So insight questions require that you really understand what your buyers are doing with your product and service. So whether this working with your success team, working with marketing team, with case studies. And you start with the premise, which in my experience over decades has proven out almost a hundred percent of the time is, the buyer has found a use case for your product or service that they didn't anticipate when they were looking at it. And from that use case, they're extracting value from your product and service that they hadn't anticipated. And you want to find, through conversations with your buyers, your customers, what those are. So whether that's your sales team, your success team, marketing team, it really requires you to be in touch with your existing customers and make sure you're asking these questions of them and really exploring. Because, this then is the source of insight, right? It's not that, “Hey, 60% of our buyers get this value from using our product.” It's like, sure, you sort of expect that. But, where are the unexpected sources of value that they're generating, unexpected use cases? Find those out. And then those become the substance that you use to create these insight questions.   Will Barron: So would that be-   Andy Paul: They exist. They exist. You find with, I mean, I've found for decades, won't say how many decades, in selling to who from the largest corporations in the world to small business, is there's always one thing in there. There's always one thing that was unexpected, that was surprise, that again, generated or helped generate a return on that investment that they hadn't anticipated.   Why Your Buyer Needs to Understand the Value They’re Getting From You · [28:53]   Will Barron: So would we be asking questions to a good customer, get them on the phone going, “What did you think you were buying the product for? And then why are you continuing to use the product moving forward?” And then I guess we can, if we did this across sales team, we could document this into industry. And then when speak to a certain person in that industry, we can perhaps refer back to the documentation. We frame it in a question, but it's almost like a case study of value as well, right?   Andy Paul: Almost. But then you want to have them quantify the value they've received from it, right? I mean, one of the key things in qualifying buyers, make sure that you have a firmly and finely qualified prospect, is you need them to do their internal math and work to say, “Look, if we think we're going to get 10% market share increase, or we're going to save X amount in cost savings or generate additional sales,” until the buyer does the internal work, and internal business case to justify and say, “Look, yeah, we quantified what the value should be of making this change. We know what it means in Euros or dollars or whatever.” Well, now you're doing it on the other side of the equation. Now they've put it to use. Yeah, let's quantify. What is this value that you actually received? And so it's starting with those questions. You talked about then digging deeper and saying, “Yeah, we need to reduce this to dollars.”   Will Barron: Should every conversation-   Andy Paul: When you do that, you'll find the sources. I'm sorry.   Get Your Sales Qualification to Yield Better Results · [30:26]    Will Barron: Should every conversation be like this? Or is it fine occasionally to go, “Okay, well, it seems like you need our product. Here's our product.” And the deal is done. And obviously it happens rarely, but it does happen. Is there a reason, is there value in going these few steps deeper, no matter how easy the sales process is going through? Or is this reserved… Go on.   “In the B2B world, a high fraction of qualified opportunities end up in no decision. The buyer simply decides to do nothing. And in my experience, most of those turn out because the buyer hadn't taken that final step of doing their internal justification for the investment based on a quantification of the value they're going to receive from doing it. So if you can't get the buyer to a point where they actually say, “Oh yeah, this is going to mean an extra $200,000 to the bottom line,” you run the risk of ending up in a no decision. So even if the deal looks easy, get the buyer to quantify the value they expect to receive from it. Absent that, you run a real risk of being a no decision.” – Andy Paul · [30:54]    Andy Paul: Well, because in the B2B world, a high fraction of qualified opportunities end up in no decision. Buyer decides to do nothing. And, my experience has been, and my belief is that most of those turn out because the buyer hadn't taken that final step of doing their internal justification for the investment based on the value, a quantification of the value they're going to receive from doing it. So they might as well just stay where they are. So you can't get the buyer to a point where they actually say, “Oh yeah, this is going to mean an extra $200,000 to the bottom line.” You run the risk of ending up in a no decision. So even if the deal looks easy, yeah, get the buyer to quantify the value they expect to receive from it. Absent that, you run a real risk of being a no decision.   How to Create a Summary of What The Buyer Should Expect from Your Product or Service · [31:40]    Will Barron: Amazing. Final question for you Andy, that is, I assume we do, but how do we document some of this? Because if this happened in conversations and you get people super excited and their loving the conversation with Andy Paul, he's really opened our eyes. There's this unique value in this opportunity that they didn't see beforehand and you've communicated effectively and that they're loving it. But then a week later they've forgotten about it, right? Or a month later when they've got Bill, they champion the account on board and then they've got to get signed off from the CFOs pushing back. And maybe they are not as able to communicate what you've described as what you are in the call with them directly and the CFO doesn't want to meet with you. How do we, and again, I'm assuming this is part of the process.   Andy Paul: Yeah, sure.   Will Barron: How do we document some of this so that it can be kind of shared within the account, or it can be communicated on our behalf, by our champions?   Andy Paul: I'm a big believer in summarising what you think you've learned and sending it to the buyer. So to confirm, first of all, I'm a big believer in confirming it in person, first of all. And I take it a step further in the book because yeah, it's fairly common sales training. Use your reflection questions, reflect back to the buyer what it is you thought you learned. Get them to confirm it. Sure. That's great. But there's usually a missing step when you're doing this in person, which is, “Hey, this is what I think, Mr. Prospect, this is what I think I heard. Did I get that right?” “Yeah. You got that right.” And then you say, “Okay, so what are we missing?”   Andy Paul: And when you put in that, what are we missing, after you've confirmed everything, again, it's another opportunity that causes the buyer to stop and think, “Yeah, what are we missing?” Right” and an opportunity to open the door to further discovery. You do that, again, you summarise it again, but make sure you send it back to the buyer in writing in an email, somehow you memorialise this and then make sure that you've got the note in your CRM system as well, so that you can track it. And so part of what you're doing is continually sort of refreshing the memory of the people you're dealing with, because what happens as soon as you stop talking with the buyer? They forget about you. And that's natural, right?   Andy Paul: I mean, it's funny. I read these studies where people, research analysts, decry, “Oh gosh. During a buying process, the buyer only spends 17% of their time with sellers.” It's like, sure, that's fine. I mean, that's probably high. I mean, they've got real jobs to do that don't involve talking to you about buying a product or service. So you need to think about the fact that, how do you keep their knowledge about what's going on sort of up to date and current. And yeah, you're going to do a bunch of that through written communications, or you summarise your communications. You remind them of it and refresh them and say, “Okay, now we're ready to go to the next stage. This is what happened before.”   Pausing, Probing, and Extending: The Art of Great Questioning · [34:47]   Will Barron: Final, final question here. I know that the last one was the final question, but you've done it a few times in the podcast, Andy, when you've given examples. How important is it for sales people, right? To be able to ask a question and then just shut up and take that little bit of stress and pressure with the buyers that perhaps they're struggling to come up with an answer. I said you've used it a couple times in your examples, because this is something I see really lacking in sales people when we're training them, right? The ability to just go just stoic faced and just sit there. And if you're on a phone call, you just mute your call, right? And run around the room and kind of get the stress out. But if you're on a Zoom call, you've got to sit there and wait for the prospect to respond. How important is that for a skill to implement everything that we talked about today?   Andy Paul: It is important. And I talk about it in the book. And this idea that they can't shut up and listen is driven by the fact that they want to respond, right? When they're listening, they're not listening to understand. They're listening to respond. And so this is the thing, the habit that needs to be broken. Is because yeah, if you're already formulating your response to the buyer while they're giving you the information, you're not really capturing the nuance of what they're trying to tell you.   Andy Paul: So, what I recommend my book is just a simple pause between hearing and listening to what the buyer has said and before I respond. And what I talk about is sort of Americanism is like, when we play touch American football is we talk about giving something a one Mississippi, that's a count, right? Giving something a pause before you take an action. So when the buyer finishes speaking, say to yourself, “One Mississippi,” say it silently. You don't have to say it out loud. But, you're giving yourself that space to process what they just told you before you respond. And that's really important. So building this beat, or maybe two beats, depending how long it takes you to say one Mississippi. And then you get a chance to absorb what they've said, process it, and then formulate an appropriate follow on, either question or a response of some sort.   Parting Thoughts · [37:00]   Will Barron: Amazing stuff. I appreciate that, Andy. Well, with that mate, tell us where we can find more about the book, the title, where we can find out more about the man, the legend, Andy Paul, himself as well.   Andy Paul: Here's the book, Sell Without Selling Out, back on the full screen. Is available at Amazon or wherever you buy books. And shipping in the UK on the 22nd of March, I believe. And available most places now, unfortunately proverbial supply chain issues, getting the book to the UK. They can follow me on LinkedIn. I have a very active presence there. You can listen to my podcast Sales Enablement With Andy Paul. And finally come to my website andypaul.com.   Will Barron: Amazing stuff. Well, I'll link to all that in the show notes of this episode over at salesman.org. And with that, Andy, it's a pleasure as always. I appreciate your time and your insights on this-   Andy Paul: Well, thank you.   Will Barron: Thank you for joining us on the Salesman Podcast.   Andy Paul: Thank you. It's been a lot of fun as always.    

On this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Andrew Bolton explains what a copywriter is and how the art of copywriting can make you a much better seller. Andrew has been a copywriter for 12 years. He’s worked with some big brands and plenty of tiny ones too. He teaches copywriting on the Creative Advertising & Creative Writing courses at the University of Lincoln and is the author of bestselling book ‘Copywriting Is: 30-or-so thoughts on thinking like a copywriter’. You'll learn: Sponsored by: Free SalesCode assessment Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind. Take the free assessment Featured on this episode: Host - Will Barron Founder of Salesman.org Guest - Andrew Bolton Experienced Copywriter Resources Andrew’s LinkedIn Book: Copywriting Is…: 30-or-so thoughts on thinking like a copywriter Book: On Writing Well: The Classic Guide to Writing Nonfiction Book: Read Me: 10 Lessons for Writing Great Copy Book: A Self-Help Guide for Copywriters Transcript Will Barron: Hi, my name is Will, and welcome to today's episode of the Salesman Podcast. On today's episode, we're looking at how you can sell like a copywriter. Today's guest is Andrew Boulton. Andrew's been a copywriter for 12 years. He's worked with some big brands and plenty of tiny ones as well. He teaches copywriting on the creative advertising and creative writing courses at the University of Lincoln. And he is the author of the best selling book, Copywriting Is…: 30-or-So Thoughts on Thinking Like a Copywriter. With that, Andrew, welcome to the show.   Andrew Boulton: Hello, thanks for having me.   Will Barron: I'm glad to have you on mate. Copywriting is something that is top of mind for me at the moment as sales people move from, I guess, 20 years ago before I was in sales. I imagine you could knock on doors, you could pick up the phone, you could… The gift of the gab and a bit of a silver tongue probably open up quite a few doors, whereas the world we live in now, whether you are emailing, texting, creating content, whatever it is to get attention in the marketplace, clearly copywriting fit into all of this.   What is Copywriting and How Can We Use It To Improve Our Sales Processes? · [01:05]   Will Barron: So with that said, though, I think there's going to be at least a few members of the audience, Andrew, that are unfamiliar with the term. Can you tell us just to get us started what copywriting is, if there's a definition of this, and then I guess what the goal of copywriting is for a salesperson, someone who needs to generate meetings and get deals done.   Andrew Boulton: Yeah, of course. I think there's probably going to be more than a few people who aren't necessarily immediately familiar or very familiar with the term. And you mentioned at the start, I teach on a creative advertising course and a creative writing course, people who are very much young people who are primed to kind of go into those careers where copywriting is a very big part of kind of the industry and very few of those students know what copywriting is.   “Copywriting is simply using words to drive action.” – Andrew Boulton · [02:10]    Andrew Boulton: So sadly, I think it's one of those things that sort of slips under the radar. I think in essence, if you ask me to kind of summarise what it is, it's the business of kind of communicating about your brand, communicating about your product, ultimately trying to persuade your audience to do the thing you want them to do. It is kind of using words to drive action.   Andrew Boulton: So regardless of what your business is or what your brand is or how you think or what you think kind of the big drivers and the big sort of pullers are within those organisations, words, and copy and your messaging and how you present yourselves and how you kind of communicate, what makes you good and sort of worthwhile comes down to copywriting. Whether you're currently using a copywriter or not, copywriting is kind of one of those big pillars that props up the effectiveness of how your business speaks to the people that you want to turn into customers and keep as customers.   The Art and Science of Copywriting · [02:50]   Will Barron: For sure. Okay. So when we talk about persuading in sales, there is this constant battle. And I'm flipping on this. I go from one side to another. I've got a background in science, I've got a degree in chemistry, I'm a public scientist. So if there is data, if there's science, if there's a way to systemify things, I'm all in.   Will Barron: But persuasion a lot of the time is leaning into people's emotions. There are many uncontrollables when we're going about persuading or influencing or lodging a prospect one way or the other. So with that said, is copywriting… Again, this is cliched in sales, but I don't know if it translates to copywriting. Is copywriting a science? Is it an art? Is it somewhere down the middle? Can it be measured? How do we know… I guess what I'm asking is, is it an art, is it a science? Then can we measure the effectiveness of copywriting?   Andrew Boulton: I suppose in the same way you ask the question about sort of sales in general, yeah, it's a combination of those things and it becomes a very sort of dangerous and self defeating business if you feel compelled to kind of pigeon hole into one thing. So if I copywrite purely based on sort of science and data and what the spreadsheet tells me is likely to persuade people, you end up with something that probably lacks a lot of the kind of the heart and the human voice, that all good kind of messaging and communication requires.   Andrew Boulton: Equally if I sat down and wrote a poem because I'm feeling it especially somehow artistic and creative, it might be very a beautiful writing, but it's very unlikely to do the thing I needed to do. So I think if you are looking for sort of the answer to that, it's kind of one thing propped on another. And usually in the process of copywriting, you probably start with some harder evidence or somewhat kind of concrete data to lean upon, even if it's nothing more spectacular than a relatively detailed view of who your customer is and what sort of motivates them.   Andrew Boulton: But then I suppose it is still very much a kind of creative job, even if your starting point is based on insight and based on human truth, you then have to do something with that that makes it something people are going to want to read and want to notice and feel like they recognise and appreciate the voice. Because that's the only way you're ever going to kind of land that message.   “I could have all the data and the evidence, the facts and the science I like, if I don't sort of come up with a voice and a method of communicating that data such that people are going to care about watching or listening or kind of engaging with, then all of that has kind of been a waste.” – Andrew Boulton · [04:45]   Andrew Boulton: I could have all the data and the evidence and sort of facts and the science I like. If I don't sort of come up with a voice and a method of communicating that that people are going to care about watching or listening or kind of engaging with, then all of that has kind of been a waste. I think when we talk to the students about copywriting and persuasion in particular, you try and train them that you can't just be expected to kind of pull these answers out of your own head.   Andrew Boulton: If you take on this sort of first person perspective and just think about what would or would not persuade or engage you, then you are giving yourself a very limited frame of reference. And I think we try and introduce them as much as possible to some of the big thinkers in terms of sort of behavioural science. Richard Shotton and Choice Factory is a huge part of what we do, is training people to be creative advertisers.   Andrew Boulton: Thaler and sort of the whole nudge theory with stuff we introduced, what Rory Sutherland is saying and Alchemy is a particularly important book for sort of the way we teach it. So I think it's one I've given you a really long and unhelpful answer that says I don't know. I think it absolutely has to be both, but what I do know for certain is if you try and do one or the other of art or science, it's very likely that either attempt would fail.   The First Step to Writing Perfect Copy · [06:05]    Will Barron: Sure. So what is the… I think you might mentioned it then in your answer Andrew. But what is the starting point for all of this? Is it coming up with our ideal bio persona? Is this something that we need to document? Is this something we need to do by interviews, customer interviews, and find out who those individuals are rather than making assumptions about who they are? And then we, I don't know, do we visualise them as we're typing away writing copy of what they would want to receive in their inbox? What do we need to do before I guess we start putting the metaphorical pen to paper.   Andrew Boulton: I think it's one of those things where I'm always really reluctant to kind of ascribe a process or any kind of universal process. Because what works for one creative or what works for one salesperson is going to be really, really different for another. It is about what produces the best results and the sort of most comfortable experience or most rewarding experience I suppose for you.   Andrew Boulton: I think yeah, of course, you sort of need to know something about your target, your prospect, your consumer. Whatever language you use within your organisation, it all boils down to fact it's a person. It's a person who lives a real life, has got real sort of challenges, real needs, real motivations and we have to start understanding them. So I'm certainly not against sort of data and I certainly recognise the value of what data can do. But that data often needs translating into something that is real and human.   Andrew Boulton: And I've certainly worked on briefs where there's been sort of a fantastic volume of kind of insight and data, but no real attempt to make it as something that I could translate into a real person living a real life. So again, I suppose it feeds back into the art and science question again, isn't it? There is no point in sort of putting a huge amount into the science of this understanding and this portrait you create of consumer if you don't then go back it up with some real life interaction and some real experience of who these people are and what their lives are, and ask them to have an honest conversation with you.   Andrew Boulton: I mean, like a lot of your listeners, I've sat in on sort of consumer testing sessions and I've seen a bunch of people, sat around a table, being asked questions. And the same bunch of people I've sort of chatted to either before or after the session and found them very ordinary, very sort of typical, real people speaking in the way real people do and you put them around this table and they behave completely different.   “The first step before writing anything is about going into the natural environment for your customer and your audience, just observing it and being part of it and sort of experiencing it as much as possible. I think that is as valuable, if not more valuable than all the stuff you can do with your spreadsheets and your data and your modelling.” – Andrew Boulton · [08:40]   Andrew Boulton: And it becomes less a representation of kind of real human beings living real human lives and more about you are a subject in a study and you are going to kind of behave as if your answers or your responses are somehow being evaluated, which I suppose they are. So I think something about going into the natural environment for your customer and your audience, just observing it and being part of it and sort of experiencing it as much as possible in the way they do.   Andrew Boulton: I think that is as valuable, if not more valuable than all the stuff you can do with your sort of spreadsheets and your data and your modelling. But I think as a copywriter and anyone who's trying to kind of reach and persuade an audience, you will be really foolish to sort of turn your back on anything out of principle. I think you've got to sort of try it and see what kind of results it produces.   Andrew Boulton: I suppose the other part of your question is, can you measure it? Can you measure the effectiveness of persuasion? Well, on one very basic level, yes, of course you can. If you put certain copy into a certain ad in a certain place, and we sell 10 lawn mowers instead of two lawn mowers, I suppose on a really sort of basic level, you can attribute that to the effectiveness of persuasion and sort the whole sort AB testing model we see on a lot of digital advertising where it's simply a matter of the arrangement of words, this arrangement of words that performs that arrangement of words.   Andrew Boulton: And sometimes we never particularly understand why arrangement A outperforms arrangement B. But again, I think you've got to be really wary in terms of performance of just basing it on the numbers, on the spreadsheet, on what's that column doing. That can only be a part of the story. And it goes back to conversation, it goes back to kind of understanding who your audience are, not on a theoretical or an empirical level, but on a real human level.   Andrew Boulton: And that's when you start to learn the conversations they have, the conversations they want to have and what they want from you. This mistake that so many brands make go out and just start talking straight away about how great you are and what you do and how you do all these things better than everyone and you never kind of stop to consider, “Well, what is it that our audience actually kind of cares about? What do they want from us?”   Copywriting is the Perfect Alignment and Arrangement of Words · [10:35]   Will Barron: I love this. And tell me if this is something that you commonly say. You came out with it almost flippantly, but I think it's amazing. You called copy an arrangement of words. Am I, who's a beginner in this, trying to over complicate this whole conversation? And should we think about it more as an arrangement of words to drive an action, as opposed to art, science, data and everything else that I'm trying to tie into the conversation?   “The word story and storytelling has been badly battered by the world of marketing. It's been misused and has almost been ridiculed slightly because of the very sort of pretentious, very over elaborate ways people have used it. But fundamentally, that's what you are trying to do. You're trying to kind of create these narratives because human beings deal in stories. We engage with stories, we sort of frame our own lives in stories and we tell ourselves stories in order to live. All of these things are really, really true.” – Andrew Boulton · [11:47]    Andrew Boulton: Yeah, and you're absolutely, and I think that's like anything in this business, like anything in sort of sales or marketing or advertising, it's so easy and it's so tempting to kind of over complicate stuff, which are of fundamental sort of human conditions. And the word story and storytelling has been sort badly battered by the world of marketing.   Andrew Boulton: It's been misused and has been almost kind of ridiculed slightly because of the sort of the very sort of pretentious, very over elaborate ways people have used it. But fundamentally, that's what you are trying to do. You're trying to kind of create these narratives, human beings deal in stories. We engage with stories, we sort of frame our own lives and stories that Joan Didion quote about, we tell ourselves stories in order to live. All of these things are really, really true.   Andrew Boulton: And if you can strip away a lot of the bollocks, apologies with that language, but if you can strip away a lot of that kind of unnecessarily fluff that these things get packaged in and get back that fundamental sort of human truth about it, it is the arrangement of words, it's the right words in the right order. And it does sound flippant, and I know it does and I have to caveat this when I say it to the students.   Andrew Boulton: But if you can focus on doing that one thing brilliantly, even at the expense of all the other things that come with being a copywriter and working in this industry, you will do well. You will produce good stuff and you will create good work and you will drive good results because that's the heart of it and there's a lot of stuff around it which you can let go of.   Why Humans Crave Succinct and Easy to Read Copy · [12:42]    Will Barron: So if the vehicle is an arrangement of words, and the action we're trying to drive is to sort to do something to persuade them, to whether it's, I guess, traditional copywriting, which is whether it's direct response, or kind of via advertisements as we know them as opposed to what we're talking about here, perhaps, which is more a sales person sending an email and getting a call booked on the back of it. If it's an arrangement of words to drive an action, what are the fundamental human conditions that underpin all this? Is it as simple as humans want to move away from pain, a move towards pleasure, or can it be narrowed down even more than that?   Andrew Boulton: I think without getting into sort of very, very broad sort of big concept stuff, it all boils down to needs. So this is like an industry sort of propped up on needs, an industry sort of defined by and existing entirely because of it. Sort of consumerist society, sort of capitalism growth of advertising, sort of back in the 20th century, anyone has ever watched an episode of Mad Men. It is all about need.   Andrew Boulton: It's all about this kind of desire to sort of tap into this kind of growing need amongst consumers and to satisfy it. And as kind of competition grew to satisfy those needs, and it became more about sort of multiple choices in any particular category. It was all about kind of proving that you are the best response to that need. But it still boils down to initially it's got to be a recognition that people need stuff.   “If a salesperson is opening an email with a paragraph all about how brilliant they are and how great they are at sales and how wonderful their product is and all these wonderful things that we like to talk about, it's going to be really hard to ignore it because you're talking about you and you're talking about your stuff. And as humans we've got a finite capacity for things we are willing to give our attention to and engage with. And if you don't capture me in that first sentence by explaining to me or demonstrating to me that you are here to satisfy a need of mine, or you are here to resolve a problem of mine, you are here to do something that is going to make my life better or easier in some sort of small or big way then your thing is really easy for me to cast aside.” – Andrew Boulton · [14:17]   Andrew Boulton: And we talked about a salesperson sending out an email hoping to generate a lead. But I think I mentioned this earlier. If that salesperson is opening that email with a paragraph all about how brilliant they are and how great they are at sales and how wonderful their product is and all the things that we like to talk about when we're kind of existing within the bubble and we're kind of sort of wrapped up with the insular nature of what it is we do, which everyone, everyone in this business is guilty of at some point or another.   Andrew Boulton: If you open your email with that, it's going to be really hard to ignore it because you're talking about you and you're talking about your stuff. And we've got finite capacity for things we are willing to give our attention to and kind of engage with. And if you don't sort of capture me in that first sentence by explaining to me or demonstrating to me that you are here to satisfy a need of mine, or you are here to resolve a problem of mine, you are here to do something that is going to make my life better or easier in some sort of small or big way then your thing is really easy for me to cast aside.   Andrew Boulton: So again, I think we could easily over complicate this. And we can either easily kind of attach sort of models and methods to it, however credible are our kind of extra layers of complexity on something that should be as simple as you need a thing, I can provide that thing and I'm going to let you know that I could provide that thing.   How to Understand Your Prospect’s Needs Using One Email · [15:36]    Will Barron: Egos aside because I think I'm pretty good at sales, right? I do all the copywriting on our training and our product and all that kind of stuff on the marketing material. And we're a seven figure company and it should mean a few freelancers. So objectively I'm probably okay at it, obviously no expert. I've never done any formal training copywriting.   Will Barron: But I think I've read a few books, read your book, I think I know a few things about it. But taking my ego out of it, is it physically possible for an individual salesperson like me, perhaps I'm selling to the enterprise, I'm trying to book a meeting with a chief marketing officer or a CRO or someone like that. Is it possible for an individual in one email to elicit a need out of a prospect and book a meeting?   Will Barron: And what I mean by that is it feasibly possible to do that in a few lines or do you need the prospect to already be aware of the need, to be wanting to solve the need and then we're just getting in front of them at the right place at the right time and that's the momentum that allows us to book a call? Can sales people do this on their own, or do sales people need to lean into the multimillion billion dollar marketing industry or marketing department in their own organisation that's trying to do a lot of this behind the scenes?   “If you have a tool or a function or a capacity that allows you to make sure you're only sending your email to people who we know are more likely to be receptive to the thing that we're trying to sell them, why wouldn't you do it? It'd be sort of crazy not to want to speak to those people.” – Andrew Boulton · [17:10]    Andrew Boulton: Of course. I think if you have a sort of a tool or a function or a capacity that allows you to make sure you're only sending your email to people who we know are more likely to be receptive to the thing that we're trying to sort of sell them, why wouldn't you do it? It'd be sort of crazy not to want to speak to those people.   Andrew Boulton: But I suppose there are also sort of times… Sorry, computer problems. There are sort of times where you're casting your net a bit wider and you don't always have the sort of specific group of leads ready to go. I suppose the other big sort of factor in all of this, and it's true for sales, true for marketing, true for advertising, is there's also a degree of chance, there's also a degree of sort of fortune about it.   Andrew Boulton: And you might send your email, your perfectly crafted, beautiful email to the perfectly chosen lead and it just so happens at that particular moment, they are distracted, irritated or kind of thinking about something else and that chance goes by and everything was right. The message was right, the sort of target was right, the means of context in them was right. Just the moment, the sort of sheer circumstance of it meant that that thing didn't come off.   Andrew Boulton: Equally, you could send your message to someone who is a very unlikely prospect and it just so happens in that second, they thought about the thing that you do, or they realised that they needed what you do and it comes together that way. And what a lot of people in the industry don't want to acknowledge or spend too much time acknowledging is there's a huge amount of just chance, pure blind luck that goes into this as well.   Andrew Boulton: That's not to say that you shouldn't always try and do things in the best way and try and do things in a way that's most likely to result in success. But if any of us ever start to think that we are sort of omnipotent and sort of in complete control of this process, that is probably sort of the signal that you need to go and do something else.   The Number One Factor That Determines The Success of Your Copy · [18:57]    Will Barron: With that said then, how much of the success of copywriting, and we'll continue on this route of a salesperson building an email cadence where they're going to perhaps send maximum of 10 emails over the course of three months so that they're maximising the chances of being in the right place when there's a trigger event or in the account or the prospect literally finds 10 minutes for a call or whatever it is.   Will Barron: And we'll assume that each of the emails are going on what you've shared so far, Andrew, that each of the emails are not based on… Always they're based on the arrangement of words is how we can help the individual, what they're going to get out of just jumping on a quick consulting call with us. So we're pointing this in as much of a favourable light as we possibly can.   Will Barron: How much of the… What percentage of the effectiveness comes from the words on the page at that point versus just a number of impressions? Or I guess a better way of wording that is how important is just the number of impressions of a similar message that we can help someone over and over and over again, whether it's via us and our sales outreach, or marketing getting involved in doing a campaign for that account, how much of the effect of copywriting comes from just impression, impression, impression versus the words on the page?   Andrew Boulton: I think the whole sort modern marketing industry is built towards this idea of kind of a cumulative wearing down if I was going to be cynical about it where we're going to say the thing, we're going to say the thing that we do and the thing we sell and the thing we you to engage with, and we're going to say it everywhere and sort of whole sort of retargeting on websites.   Andrew Boulton: You're not allowed to look at something on the internet once. If you've looked at a jumper on a website once, that jumper will haunt you for the rest of your days. So it is one of those other size, isn't it? Where there's someone somewhere far clever than me has obviously identified that there is value in kind of hitting people from lots of different angles and kind of putting this thing on their radar in all the different places they are most likely to be.   Andrew Boulton: And I can't say I have any complaint about that. I don't particularly feel any affection for it but I see why it exists. Again, I feel like I keep giving the same answer to every question, which is really unhelpful, but it boils down to a much kind of simpler truth than that. And it is still got to be about a quality message. It's still got to be about a compelling story.   Andrew Boulton: It's still got to be about the right way words in the right order ideally at the right time and to the right prospect. But it's driven by language, it's driven by kind of communication. And if you have got a really clever system to ensure that the perfect message is landing at people's doorstep, in all the sort of various places that we want to kind of reach them and if we've got a magical formula that says that you need sort of someone to see your message three or four times before it sinks in, fine. I'll take your word for that because I don't know any better.   Andrew Boulton: But you still cannot convince me that any of this means anything if you are not getting those words right, getting those messages right. And I think people sometimes don't work with a copywriter for a lot of reasons. It could be the finance of it, it could be that they don't sort of see the value in it or they don't realise what a writer can contribute. And a lot of what I hear is anyone can write. I can write, why would I pay someone to come and do it for me?   Andrew Boulton: I think if you think that, and there's no judgement attached to this, but what I would urge you to do is find a few pounds in your budget and just get a copywriter to come and spend a couple of hours with you and do one project. Just do one very, very sort of tiny thing for you and just watch them. Watch how they do it, watch how they approach it and watch what they come up with.   Andrew Boulton: And I think you will honestly see a remarkable difference. And in terms of the words they put on the page, it's not going to be sort of dramatically different from where you would've ended up. But the detail of it, the consideration of it, the reasoning that goes behind every sort of word and why that word is chosen and why that word is adjacent to this word and why this forms that sentence, and it's a craft.   Andrew Boulton: I suppose we talked about sort of science and art, didn't we? Well, maybe the appropriate word is craft. And like any craft, it sort of takes time and skill, and it is accumulated over years and years of sort of practise. But I think if you've never sort of experienced that and you've never really thought about what a difference a professional copywriter could make to the sort of quality and the effectiveness of your messaging, go and find a good copywriter and let them show you what they can do. Because I don't think you'd go back, I don't think you'd fail to be convinced by that.   Will Barron: For sure. And just to add a layer to that, head over to salesman.org. So I said I did all the copywriting on the website, but we've hired two copywriters. One of them just sucked, but the second fellow, Tim, he's done all of our emails in our sales cadence. So if you sign up for our free sales assessment, you can get a series of emails.   Will Barron: A lot of them are, I guess 99% of them are value based giving you insights based on your assessment results and a few of them will push you to the training product based on the back of the results of what we can help you with. And it's interesting because there's some… what you would see straight through, right? But I almost see a little bit of black magic of, I will go in some of these emails and be like, “Well, I would change that. That's not really my voice, I'm going to change it slightly.”   Will Barron: I change a few words and then it reads like absolute crap. And I don't know what's changed, I don't know what flow has been altered. But Tim who's wrote the emails, I think he's wrote like 60 of them for us now, they go out of the course of a few months after, again people sign up for this sales code assessment. There's just this like… I can't describe it, almost like there's a story being told, there's emotions being pulled and it's almost like a beat to the email, a bam bam badam dada.   Writing Good Copy is a Craft Every Salesperson Should Master · [24:54]    Will Barron: And as you're reading through it, you want to get to that next drop of the beat and it drags you into them. And as I said, I've tried to experiment of… Tim's from Europe, obviously I'm from the UK so there's a few phrases and words that I was like while I might say this, he might say that. So I tried to change them. And then one sentence change in the whole of the email and it falls apart. That to me is insane, to you, Andrew is probably obvious, right?   “Everything a good copywriter will do for you, every word on the page is there for a reason. And what you are paying for is that attention to detail, that sort of precision.” – Andrew Boulton · [25:49]    Andrew Boulton: I think, well… And I mean, first of all, it sounds like hire Tim is the message here, hire Tim. I think I would be being slightly mischievous if I said to you that copywriting is this sort of house of cards, where if the layman lays one of the sort of dirty fingers on it, then it's all going to fall pieces. But it goes back to what I said. Everything you got a good copywriter will do for you, every word on the page is there for a reason.   Andrew Boulton: And what you are paying for is that attention to detail, that sort of precision. That's what I talk about when I mean sort of craft. So I've seen it happen many times where you write something that you feel is kind of perfectly calibrated, it sounds really sort of [inaudible 00:26:07] for me to say that, but this sort perfect calibrated sort piece of copy, and you give it to someone and they feel like they need to change this world or change this sentence or move this thing to the top and this thing to the middle, and it's like a game of chess unravelling.   Andrew Boulton: It takes probably three moves to bring the whole thing down, whole thing crumbling down and then you can't repair it. It's you go back to the beginning and see what you can do. So it isn't, it's nothing magical or mystical about it. It's this very sort of precise approach and this precise understanding of language. And I think you said the word sort of rhythm when you were talking about Tim, hire Tim, everyone. But you said the word rhythm, and that's a big sort of invisible part of copywriting.   Andrew Boulton: And I think people say, “Well, copywriting, I will assess the words and the sentences and the paragraphs are on this page in front of me and that's all I'm looking for.” Well, no, you're looking for sort of the tone, the rhythm of it. The rhythm is trying to sort of replicate the way that human beings speak to each other, a conversation. If you had a conversation with a colleague or a friend or even a stranger, the rhythm of that conversation would be very, very different.   Andrew Boulton: And if I ask you to write down that conversation on paper and what a copywriter does, it writes almost for the ear. Even though it's going on to the page and it's never intended to be kind of read out loud, we write it in a way that when it's translated in somebody's brain, into kind of almost like this audible message, then that rhythm is there. It feels comfortable, it feels engaging.   Andrew Boulton: We know what kind of rhythms, even if we can't articulate it, we know what kind of rhythms we would listen to. We know what kind of rhythms are really sort of monotonous. There's a very famous experiment by writer Gary Provost and it's called, here's a five word sentence. And he shows you how monotonous it is when you write a paragraph where every sentence is five words long, and it becomes droning and it becomes dry and it becomes mechanical. So I think this is what you're paying your copywriter for. It's not even just what you're looking at, it's all the other considerations that kind of go beyond that.   Andrew Analyses the Copy Over at Salesman.org · [28:20]    Will Barron: You can say no to this and me and the audience won't hold you against it, right? Do you want to pull up one of our pages and just go… Perhaps the first few lines on there and see if you would… And feel free to hand me my ass here and make me like a fool on the show, right? Is that something you do? Because I think that might be valuable for the audience to get [crosstalk 00:28:23].   Andrew Boulton: I will do it with a massive caveat. I'm probably not going to say anything very useful and insightful.   Will Barron: Yep. Well, I'm sure you will. Because I'm feeling embarrassed before you've even opened it. If you want to go to salesman.org and click the academy link at the top of the page, do you want to… We're doing the… And for the audience, anyone who's listening to this show, as opposed to watching it, we're doing this kind of in real time. So you can forgive Andrew and I if… And I was bad prepared, Andrew, I would've got it over to you ahead of time.   Andrew Boulton: Okay. Well academy, yeah. Okay. So the one that says a simple system to find and close more outbound sales in the next 30 days.   Will Barron: Correct. Any thoughts on that as kind of the upper third of the page?   Andrew Boulton: Okay. Well, hang on a sec, let me have a look. Even if you… Okay, right. So first of all, I like the dog. I like the little dog, he's nice. A simple system to finally close more outbound sales in the next 30 days. Now, there probably isn't anything particularly exciting about that, but there's real clarity there.   Will Barron: Sure.   Andrew Boulton: You are talking about, here's the thing that we're going to give you. We're going to sort of equip you with this very specific skill and also you're giving people a sort of timeframe. So it's a very sort of typically sort of sales driven message, but there's a directness to it, there's a sort of transparency to it. So I have no problem with that. Sounds really mean, and this is a very, very sort of small thing.   Andrew Boulton: I don't like the case, I don't like sort of the title case, upper case letter on every single thing, but that is a purely subjective thing, but change that for me please. What I do like, if we move down to sort of this next grey bar, an effective four week sales training and one-to-one, one-on-one sorry, mentoring programme that shows you how to find more leads, close more deals step by step.   “There's this thing in copywriting which I always say to people: you can't afford to waste a word. Every word must be serving a purpose, every word must be kind of driving you forward in that journey.” – Andrew Boulton · [30:37]    Andrew Boulton: I think what you've got here, and I don't know if this is your writing or this is Tim or whoever's responsible to this, there's this thing in copywriting which I always say to people you can't afford to waste a word. So you are dealing often in very sort of small sentences, small paragraphs, just compact messaging basically. And because of that and because of the attention spans of the kind of the people you are trying to engage and trying to communicate with, you cannot afford to waste a word.   Andrew Boulton: Every word must be serving a purpose, every word must be kind of driving you forward in that journey. And what I would say about that at a glance is I feel like that's a pretty tight sentence. I think it says very sort of clearly what it is you want to do. I think that the thing I enjoy is the four ticks. So even if you hate working sales, if you don't feel motivated, even if you don't have a sales process and even if you feel overwhelmed.   Andrew Boulton: So I think this is this thing here where you're starting to kind of demonstrate an understanding of the resistance, so the understanding of the kind of the reasons why people might not want to do this, or might not like sales in general or might feel that this is a big challenge. And one of the biggest things, I suppose you can kind of convey in any kind of message like this where you're looking to drive a relationship or drive a transaction is you need to demonstrate an empathy.   Andrew Boulton: You need to demonstrate, we understand what you need, but we also understand what you don't need and what you don't want and what motivates you and what doesn't motivate you. And I think that honesty, it sounds… Brands always talk about their honesty and it makes me wince a little bit because that should be the very bare minimum that you are prepared to give me.   Andrew Boulton: But even so, I think this direct human honesty that says, “We know you might hate this. We know you might be afraid of this. We know you might feel like this is a massive pain in the ass. But even if those things are true, this is the thing for you, this is the thing that's going to make it better.” The implication here is that the pain is going to go away. We're going to make it less scary or irritating.   Andrew Boulton: And I think what you end up with then is a message that is not really about a course or a sales programme or anything, even especially professional, it's a message that resonates on a very human level. It's about you've got a problem or you've got an anxiety or you've got a particular distaste for something and we are going to give you something that doesn't sort of trigger any of those things, but is going to actually really help you and you're going to find rewarding.   Andrew Boulton: So on a totally sort of off the cuff assessment of your sort of top five inches of website, there's a lot of really effective stuff in there. I think the sort of the tightness of the copy, the sort of the efficiency of the word choice and that very sort of early recognition that we kind of understand your worries or frustrations or fears around this thing. I think you end up with something that feels very clear and very honest, which is two very sort of positive characteristics to kind communicate.   The Difference Between a Good Writer and a Professional Copywriter · [33:04]    Will Barron: I think you… So I wrote this and I think you've nailed it, absolutely nailed what I struggle with copywriting. And this goes for this page. And if anyone who's interested, go to salesman.org/salesdeskpage, and you'll see. And I'll link this in the show notes as well over at salesman.org in the show notes, this episode.   Will Barron: But you nailed what I struggle with, which is I can be very analytical. I feel like I can cut words out of sentences and make them nice and tight. What I really struggle with is adding a layer of emotion, adding a bit of story to it, adding… And I guess this is the scale, right? I'm very good at… No, I'm not very good.   Will Barron: I feel like I can physically do the logical side of things, you should jump on a call with us because we do this, we solve this problem, you're going to have this benefit at the other end of it, does it make sense to jump a call? But then when I see someone who knows what they're doing with copywriting, again, there's just this little bit of elegance to it and there's a little bit of, it's not human, it's like personality that's driven in. Is that the bit that separates the hacks like me versus the pros like yourself?   Andrew Boulton: Well, I think it's a really sort of risky business and it's a very sort of common thing where people equate a sort of a human personality with emotion. And I think the industry is probably fairly guilty of kind of overestimating or overusing sort of emotion. There's absolutely a place for kind of emotional response in sales and marketing and advertising.   Andrew Boulton: Emotion is one of the sort of key drivers of what sort of persuades us, of what drives our sort of memory are willing to kind of act and participate in things as we're seeing at the moment this week with sort of some really impactful campaigns around sort of supporting the people of Ukraine. It's using emotion as a way to drive very direct, very specific action, and it's doing it really effectively.   Andrew Boulton: But there's not really a place for every single sort of sales and marketing message for an emotional thing. Some things are largely kind of functional or let's say they are kind of functional emotions rather than sort of pure emotions. And what we are offering here on this particular page, it's all about functional benefits. It's all about we're going to make your life easier in these ways, we're going to make you better with your job in these ways.   Andrew Boulton: And the implication there is you become better with your job, you become more successful. You might improve your mental health, you might improve your sort of family life as a result of that. All of that is the kind of the unsaid stuff. But the direct thing we are talking about is a very, very sort of functional, practical benefit. And you know what? There's nothing wrong with that. There's no harm in that.   Andrew Boulton: You want to try and express that in a human way and you want to try and express it in the way that real people would speak to each other, but there's nothing wrong with saying our benefit is simply this thing. It's not about filling up your heart with joy. It's not about playing on any sort of finer feelings than that. It's just about saying here's a great thing that we think you'll find useful, that we think will make a difference to your life in sort of some small but important way. And that's okay.   Andrew Boulton: And I think a lot of the time you see brands who have either been told or believe for themselves that everything has to have this emotion in it. And I think that's when you start to get into the most insincere and inappropriate kind of brand messaging you see where they are trying to kind of give themselves a bigger and more significant role in our lives, than they really weren't.   Andrew Boulton: So if you are a kind of fizzy drink, there is only so far you can go in terms of kind of bringing me any real and sort of meaningful joy in my life. And I think unless you as a brand are aware of those limitations, you are going to cross that line and make yourself look rather silly and make me feel like I don't really want to drink this fizzy drink that has such a high opinion of itself.   Emotional Copywriting and Why It’s So Effective · [36:54]    Will Barron: For sure. I won't put brands in your mouth. But as you say that for me, I sometimes see Coca-Cola adverts, McDonald's adverts and they make me cringe that why are all these beautiful people doing all these things and having all this fun and it revolves around a drink? But then the flip side of that is I see a Red Bull advert, or I see Red Bull certainly inserted into the downhill mountain bike and I was watching this morning and I guess is wider branding as opposed to just copywriting.   Will Barron: But Red Bull's terrible for you, don't drink it. Everyone listening to this, it's absolutely terrible for you. But it's a cool drink. And if I was good to drink a drink like that, I would be drinking Red Bull rather than Cola Energy or whatever kind of they point out because it makes me feel different to the cheesy adverts that are clearly massively successful.   Andrew Boulton: Yeah, of course.   Will Barron: Because what's a bigger brand than Coca-Cola and McDonald's? Right? But they obviously don't resonate with me specifically. And just on that, the point of the emotion, I think that was really useful for me, selfishly, and hopefully this is useful for the audience as well. Because I, and I feel you just subtlely told me off there for wanting to add perhaps more emotion and things to this page.   Will Barron: And I think sometimes I see some competitors in our space, Andrew, who are like, where I talk about simple systems are going to remove overwhelm, we're going to give you a sales process, we're going to… It's all logical. We're going to help you out each way. You're going to make more money at the end of it by the basis of having process in place, right? We make sales simple, that's what we do.   Will Barron: Versus I see some competitors that are indirect competitors because they're probably attracting a different type of buyer in the sales training space, but their marketing is, “Hey, we're going to make you another 200 grand this year. We're going to do this. We're going to do that.” And it's almost a bit sleazy, it's a bit weird. And so I appreciate what you're saying then of the… Because at a certain point, you add so much emotion that it becomes scamlike, it becomes weird.   Will Barron: If you're saying it's going to do all these incredible things, when it is just a series of calls and trainings that you kind of… There's a weird, I don't know what you might… There might be a word to describe it in copywriting but I feel like it gives me a weird gut feeling that someone isn't quite right here when you get too far beyond the logical.   Andrew Boulton: I think it's one of the words that you can't go more than a few steps in some of our business without hearing there's authenticity. And there are probably sort of two different approaches to that or sort of two different philosophies around that. One is that authenticity is integral to what you do. And it shouldn't be something we have to kind of define or create or kind of integrate into this business, it should just exist.   Andrew Boulton: And we are real people, we understand our customers are real people. Here are some things we stand for legitimately because we believe in them, here is what we feel our kind of products or services can do and why they exist. And it's never discussed in any meaningful way because it goes without saying that it's a part of why we exist and everything we do.   Andrew Boulton: And I think there's another side where authenticity becomes almost like a brand value. It becomes this kind of this artificial creation. It becomes as created as a logo or packaging design, this sense of authenticity that you've had to kind of manufacture. But why I think it matters and why I think sort of as an industry we're obsessed about it so much is because it's probably sort of the biggest single influencing factor in sort of why we sort of choose to give our money to a brand or we don't.   Andrew Boulton: And not on any sort of complex or probably sort of a trackable level, it's just that human beings especially in this generation, I think have an inbuilt detector for what feels real, feels like it's coming from like a human voice, if not a human person and what feels like bullshit. And I think I see a huge amount.   Andrew Boulton: I think one of the sort of the biggest, if not the biggest growth in sort of advertising marketing messages that I've seen over the last few years is for crypto, like crypto bro stuff. And I know I'm not being dismissive of anyone who sort of understands sort of crypto and invests in it and does well out of it. Good for you, fill your boots. It's way beyond my comprehension.   Andrew Boulton: But I look at the adverts for it and sort of it's got a certain tone to it, it's got a sort of an aggression, it's a bit of a cliche but it's got a sort of this kind of over the top masculinity to it where it's like, “Dude, you could be earning a million pounds in your pants before lunch time.”   Andrew Boulton: And I think most people would look at that and go, this feels gross, this feels, your word, sleazy and I don't believe it. This feels like a scam. This feels like the language of scams, but you know what? Do you know why there are so many ads that behave in that way, so many ads that use that kind of tone, that language, those constructs? Because there is an audience and a significant audience who it works on.   Andrew Boulton: And never in my life have I ever heard one of my friends be able to recite a famous kind of advertising slogan or a headline from an advert, never ever once. And they all know what I do, and they know what I work and they know what I teach and they're just not engaged in that world and they can't really sort of tell me anything beyond sort of the tango man sort of slapping that guy in the face back in late '80s.   “If there is an audience out there and you know that your audience responds to a certain thing, even if that thing feels horrible and sort of inappropriate, there are brands and there are businesses who will capitalise on that. But we use that kind of thing and they know they're excluding the majority of people, but they don't care about the majority of people. They care very specifically about this kind of target market they are likely to persuade and they know this is the way to do it. ” – Andrew Boulton · [42:21]    Andrew Boulton: But I had a mate who said, “Oh, that I saw this ad for crypto and it said this.” And he could quote me the exact headline from this ad or this kind of marketing message. So do you know what? If there is an audience out there and you know that your audience responds to a certain thing, even if that thing feels horrible and sort of inappropriate, there are brands and there are businesses who will capitalise on that.   Andrew Boulton: But we use that kind of thing and they know they're excluding the majority of people, but they don't care about the majority of people. They care very specifically about this kind of target market they are likely to persuade and they know this is the way to do it. So authenticity is massively important as a general rule. But like all the sort of the best general rules in this business, there will be many significant occasions where it goes out the window.   Will Barron: I mean, there's two things here that I'll just add. Again, not putting words in your mouth, Andrew. One with crypto, a fool and their money are easily parted, right? So if people are targeting a specific type of person, a specific age, probably blokes who are 18 to 25 kind of thing, they're doing that for a reason.   Will Barron: And obviously we've both been somewhat flippant here, but there's massive sophistication behind what they're doing in the messaging and the AB testing of it all and the millions of impressions that they're running through to suss this out. But also if you were trying to build a long term business that's going to survive changes whether crypto's here or it isn't in 20 years time, maybe you take a different approach, right?   Will Barron: Maybe there's some short term kind of push for some of this that influences whether people are happy to be burned, whether people are happy to feel gross, whether people understand whether it's a gamble or they should think is an assessment, they think it's an investment. So all that ties in too, I guess. I'm conscious of time because I really enjoy this conversation, mate. I'm genuinely really enjoying it.   The One Thing You Should Never Do When Writing Copy · [44:07]    Will Barron: So I've got one final question. And we've talked quite high level about this, and if you can give us a real practical answer, I think this would be really valuable for the audience. So with regards to copywriting, again, from the perspective of a B2B salesperson, they might be creating small micro bits of content to add value to the potential customers.   Will Barron: They might be writing sales emails. They might be, I don't know, maybe doing a little bit of marketing on the side, whatever they're doing. But in that kind of context, Andrew, what is one thing that the audience should never do ever, ever, not even if they think about it, even if they think it might work, what is the one thing that they should never implement within the world of arranging words on a page?   Andrew Boulton: So I think there's lots of things I'm tempted to answer to this, but I think in the spirit of the question, I will choose one. And I think the biggest temptation you'll get, whether you are a copywriter or not. If you are writing something for a website, for an email, for a sales message, whatever it might be, the biggest temptation is to sit down and to write it and sort of take your time and to think about the words and arrange it all out and get it into sort of a perfect place and pour your sort of heart and soul and sort of energy into it all and then feeling so sort of pleased and proud of yourself and your creation, just assume that's it and that's the end of the process and you can sort of stick it up into the place that it wants to be and it can go out into the world.   Andrew Boulton: The value of copywriting and the value of sort of the processes and systems set up to make copywriting work is that it requires input. And it requires you to be able to sell your copy into somebody else. It's the frustrating part of the job and it's often the sort of the thing that kind of leaves copywriters sort of sad and broken. But it also helps ensure that the message is doing its job.   “If you've written something, even if you have no client, even if you are the client, find someone to go and read it to. And I mean, very specifically, read it out loud to. Let them look at it on paper, but first, you are going to read it out loud to them, and that's the perfect way to sort of detect sort of if you've got the rhythm right, if you've got the sort of tone of a human voice right, if this sounds like something that would sound pleasantly in your brain like we've discussed. And that person can be connected to what you're doing. It can be a potential customer, it can be someone within your team, but you just need that kind of external view on it.” – Andrew Boulton · [46:00]    Andrew Boulton: So if you've written something, even if you have no client, even if you are the client, find someone to go and read it to. And I mean, very specifically, read it out loud to. Let them look at it on paper, but first, you are going to read it out loud to them, and that's the perfect way to sort of detect sort of if you've got the rhythm right, if you've got the sort of tone of a human voice right, if this sounds like something that would sound pleasantly in your brain like we've discussed.   Andrew Boulton: And that person can be connected to what you're doing. It can be a potential customer, it can be someone within your team, but you just need that kind of external view on it. Now, what they say to you, what they suggest doing, you don't have to change everything that they suggest changing, but you almost need to see it through another person's eyes and get their thoughts. And that's when you start to kind of really evaluate it.   Andrew Boulton: But because we are in this very sort of fast moving content world, the temptation is always write and publish in the same breath. And that is where mistakes are made. And a lot of the time, those mistakes will be very sort of low consequence and it will just mean you've got a piece of clunky content out there and it's not going to cost you anything. But there is always the chance that it could make a difference. And a poorly written email could be the end of a potential lead for one reason or another.   “However tempting it is to kind of write and publish, I think, write, pause, review it yourself, and then go find someone just to kind of get their thoughts and get them to listen to it, get them to read it, get them to understand what it is you're trying to achieve. And listen to what they have to say.” – Andrew Boulton · [47:15]    Andrew Boulton: So however tempting it is to kind of write and publish, I think, write, pause, review it yourself, and then go find someone just to kind of get their thoughts and get them to kind of listen to it, get them to read it, get them to kind of understand what it is you're trying to achieve. And listen to what they have to say.   Andrew Boulton: There's no prizes for kind of doing it all by yourself in copywriting, you don't get any rewards if every single word on there is yours and yours alone. Take a bit of help, take advice and take other people's opinions and I think it will make you a better writer and a better communicator of your ideas.   On Writing Well · [47:51]    Will Barron: That makes total sense. We've just done two hours ago, a whole podcast, Andrew, on how to edit content, how to rewrite emails. So I'm so glad that you've said that. I think it was On Writing Well, was a book that I found that was valuable for helping me write less crappy content. And the main thing I took away from that was just delete anything that didn't need to be there. If that sentence doesn't add any value, just get rid of it. And that changed… Again, I'm very average of all this, I'm not saying I'm very good at it. But that took me from real shit to average in one fell swoop.   Andrew Boulton: And I think it's a really good point. I think find a good book on copywriting. My book is more about the thoughts and life of a copywriter but there's some excellent books which I would consider to be almost kind of guide books, like handbooks to how to be better at it.   Andrew Boulton: And the first one that springs to mind is a book like Gyles Lingwood who I know is a lovely guy, he's written a fantastic book called Read Me. I would also add Dan Nelken. He's written a book, A Self-Help Guide for Copywriters, which is amazing. It's honestly one of the sort of the best books on the subject I've read. But that's just two out of many.   Andrew Boulton: A book called Junior by Thomas Kemeny is excellent. I could give you a huge long list but I think start with those ones. And if this is something you are interested in getting better, then these people are great teachers of the simple sort of the craft of kind of how to just produce better messaging, sort of better copy, better sentences, more persuasive ways to kind of say what you're trying to say.   Parting Thoughts · [47:53]   Will Barron: Very good. I will, if it's cool with you, I'll drop you an email after the show. I'll get a list of books that you recommend for our audience, your students and we'll put them in the show notes of this episode over at saleman.org. But Andrew, tell us more about your sir, tell us where we can find out more about you as well.   Andrew Boulton: Oh, thank very much. So I wrote a book called Copywriting Is…: 30-or-So Thoughts on Thinking Like a Copywriter. It was an idea that was sort of swimming around in my brain for years and years and years and I finally got the chance to do it. I forced myself to do it. And it was a very long and a sort of painful process. But I'm very sort of pleased with where we got to.   Andrew Boulton: It's published by a wonderful publisher called Gasp Books. Giles Edwards is my publisher, he runs sort of Gasp Books and he runs the Gasp Agency. He's horrible idiot, but he's also a lovely man. And so that's that in the world. And we sort of released it with just feeling very sort of satisfied that we managed to kind of get this thing created and produced.   Andrew Boulton: And we were staggered and startled and all of those other things to find out we became a bestseller. We were the bestselling advertising book on Amazon alongside a list of some authors who I absolutely love and some books I absolutely love. So it was an incredible thing. So it's gone far better than I thought we ever imagined it would and it's still selling.   Andrew Boulton: So if you are interested, like I said, it's not a guide book, it's not a textbook in copywriting, but gives you an idea of what the copywriting life is all about if you are interested. So there's that. At the same time, Giles and I, Giles Edwards and I also wrote a book, a children's book. And we tell people it is the world's first ever children's book about copywriting. We think that's true. No one's sort of sued us yet so we think that's the truth.   Andrew Boulton: And it's called Adele Writes An Ad. Both of these books available from unfortunately, Amazon, but also sort of any good bookshop in the UK. And we're very, very proud of that and we are hopefully the aim of that is just to try and persuade more young people to kind of follow the copywriting path. And the only other thing I sort of have left the plug on.   Andrew Boulton: I'm speaking at the copywriting conference, the ProCopywriters Copywriting Conference in October in Brighton. It's the best copywriting conference in the world. In my opinion, ProCopywriters do some incredible work for the industry. So I'll be there speaking live rambling away. If you are interested, you are around, you'll be able to find tickets on the ProCopywriters site.   Will Barron: Amazing stuff. Well, I'll link to all of that in the show notes to this episode over at salesman.org. And with that, Andrew, I appreciate your insights, the conversation. I appreciate me throwing the website in your face mid interview and you going through that. I appreciate that, mate. And I want to thank you again for joining us on the Salesman Podcast.   Andrew Boulton: Absolute pleasure. Really good to talk to you.  

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