The Salesman.com Podcast

Chris Smith is a sales and marketing expert, USA Today bestselling author and co-founder of Curaytor. On this episode of the Salesman Podcast Chris shares how software and what tools modern, internet based B2B sales professionals really need to close business in their marketplaces. Resources: Curaytor.com Book: Chris on Linkedin @Chris_Smth Book: The Conversion Code: Capture Internet Leads, Create Quality Appointments, Close More Sales

Most people think the best sales reps are selfish, that they only think about closing a deal from THEIR side, not the buyer’s. They’re focused on the sales funnel, not the buying process. But it turns out the most successful reps put 90% of their energy into understanding WHY buyers make a purchase. They focus on what’s known as the buyer’s journey. Because doing so makes nurturing a deal and closing 10X easier. And guess what, you can do the same too. What Is the Buyer’s Journey? Basically, the buyer’s journey is how your buyers go from being unaware of their problem to deciding to purchase your solution. Most sales professionals break the journey down into five stages: 1. No Awareness No Awareness where the buyer doesn’t even understand they have a problem. 2. Awareness Awareness where they’ve acknowledged the problem exists and are seeking more information about it. 3. Exploring Solutions Exploring Solutions where the buyer is trying to find the right product to solve their problem. 4. Comparing Vendors Comparing Vendors where they are weighing the pros and cons of different solutions. 5. Purchase Decision And Purchase Decision where, you guessed it… they decide to purchase a particular solution. Now, as they move through these five stages, they’ll interact with touch points that push them forward to the next stage. Touch points could be content like articles, case studies, and testimonials, but they’ll also be initial conversations with sales reps, demos, and sales calls. How Has the Buyer’s Journey Changed? How the buyer’s journey has changed recently. Here’s what the old buyer’s journey looked like: About 40% of the journey was covered by content the buyer would consume on their own. After that, sales would get involved and help guide the buyer through the remaining 60%. But these days, the buyer’s journey looks more like this: Nowadays sales reps are typically only involved in the final 20% of the journey—a huge change from the model of the past. This model has only gotten even more hands-off since the rise of COVID. In fact, a study from McKinsey found that 70-80% of B2B decisionmakers now prefer remote or digital self-service models vs. traditional models. This shift spells out three distinct changes for sales professionals like you: 1. The Sales Cycle Is Longer Than Ever The sales cycle is longer than ever, which means more in-depth sales cadences and customer lifetime value are incredibly important. 2. Content Needs to Be More Strategic Two, content needs to be more strategic. B2B buyers now consume at least 13 pieces of content before making a buying decision. As a result, your content needs to be specifically tailored for the buyer’s journey stage they’re currently in (more on that in just a bit). 3. “Education First, Salesmanship Second” And finally, you need to adopt an “education first, salesmanship second” mindset to be successful in this new world of sales. Longer relationships, a complicated journey, and fewer sales rep touch points mean buyers will focus more on the value you provide, not the charm you exude. Mapping Your Buyer’s Journey Now, the question is how can you change up your buyer’s journey to create a sales cycle tailored to this new reality? This is where the Buyer’s Journey Framework from the Selling Made Simple Academy comes in. The first step is to understand how your own customers are actually moving through the buyer’s journey. And that takes plotting out five factors. 1. Which Step Do You Meet Them? Which step do you meet them? If it’s earlier in the cycle, you may want to consider shifting your personal touch points to later in the journey. Rather than having a sales conversation with prospects in the No Awareness stage, better to leave things to a well-crafted piece of educational content. Now it’s worth mentioning that every industry will be different. So don’t be afraid to experiment with different methods in yours. But the key is to not rely on old models where you may close a deal during your first conversation. Instead, know when to step back and let the buyer take the lead. 2. Where Have They Been? Factor number two is knowing where the prospect has been. Which stages have they been through already? What kind of content are they consuming on a regular basis? Where are you seeing the most engagement? A robust CRM is golden here so be sure to equip yourself with tools like HubSpot as soon as possible. 3. What Pain Are They In? Next up, what pain are they in? There are usually specific pain points for each stage of the buyer’s journey. Knowing which pain points match up with which is essential for delivering the right messaging. Here are some examples of possible pain points for each stage. No Awareness I know my business can be run more efficiently, but I don’t know how. Awareness There is a gap in our processes that I need to understand better. Exploring Solutions We don’t know which solution types will solve our problem. Comparing Vendors Which product offers the features we need to make this a successful solution? Purchase Decision I’m concerned this isn’t the right decision and needs reinforcement. 4. What Is Their Next Step? The fourth factor you need to consider is what is the buyer’s next step? In the best-case scenario, the next step is going to be the next step in the buyer’s journey, like moving from No Awareness to Awareness. With that next step in mind, you can then move on to… 5. How Do You Get Them to the Next Stage? How do you get buyers to the next stage? For most stages, it’s going to be valuable content that does the trick. Use the individual pain points you picked out when deciding what pain the prospect was in during step number three. From there, generate educational content that addresses those pain points. Now in general you’ll want to keep content for earlier stages more simple. Blogs, social media posts, that kind of thing. And for later stages you can get more in the weeds with product spec guides, whitepapers, and case studies. What’s important here is that you’re meeting prospects where they are and ushering them to the next stage. Skip the salesmanship. And focus on education instead. Summary Not taking the buyer-focused approach isn’t just wrong in principle (after all, your job is to be a problem solver, not a shyster). But it also makes qualifying, nurturing, and closing prospects 10X easier.

Let’s face it—most cold emails suck. Cheesy openers, misleading subject lines, body copy that drawls on and on. It’s no wonder why the response rate for them is often less than 2%. But the most frustrating thing about it is cold emails don’t HAVE to suck! Because there’s a simple, 4-step structure you can follow to make any email stand out in any industry for any customer… Today we’re hitting on a subject that should be near and dear to any sales professional, cold email. We’ll be covering one of my favorite Selling Made Simple Academy processes, The Strategic Cold Email Framework. It’s made up of just 4 short steps: Get Attention Demonstrate the Need Earn Their Trust Call to Action Now, I love this framework because it’s just so versatile. You can apply it to any industry, from textiles and candy bars to professional services, luxury goods, and enterprise-level software. And like I said, it comes directly from the Selling Made Simple Academy. We won’t be able to cover it as in-depth here, of course. But it’ll be a great overview so you can at least get some actionable strategies you can start using today. And at the end, we’ll put it all together and share a template you can start using today. 1) Get Attention In the increasingly busy and crowded world of email, if you can’t stand out from the rest right off the bat, your cold email is going straight to the trash. Buyers won’t even bother opening them. So, which subject lines get opened rather than sent to junk? A. Direct Subject Lines Direct subject lines like “The world’s fastest CRM tool – 20% off today” B. News Subject Lines News subject lines like “Law [X] has moved on. Has your insurance followed?” C. How-to Subject Lines How-to subject lines like “How to reduce your advertising spend in 14 days” D. Question Subject Lines And question subject lines like “Is [X] costing you more to operate than it should?” 2) Demonstrate the Need Once you’ve got their attention, it’s time to demonstrate the need. What can you offer? And why should they devote their time to listening to you? One of the best ways to do this is by using the reality gap method. This method involves three steps. A. Current Reality Outline their current reality, typically by highlighting a problem they’re dealing with today. Next… B. Desired Future Reality Show their desired future reality once that problem is solved. And last… C. Reality Bridge Build the reality bridge by providing the steps they need to take to get them from where they are now to where they could be—i.e., use the solution YOU are offering. Here’s what that might look like in practice:   Hi [NAME],  I recently worked with [NAME], he is in the [INDUSTRY] like you.  Traditional salespeople had failed [NAME]. Here is his story – [LINK TO INSIGHT POST] He went from zero motivation, to proactively racing to get to his desk each morning to prospect.  All by implementing proven frameworks to relieve the pressure of choice from his job. Does it make sense to jump on a quick call to see if you can use these frameworks too?  Cheers, Will   3) Earn Their Trust Earning the buyer’s trust. Social proof is the name of the game here. What kinds of success stories have you had with past clients? What amazing ROI did you achieve that lines up with what you can offer this prospect? Try to include social proof directly in the body copy. For instance, when building out a reality gap, use quantitative results from people in similar companies, preferably ones the prospect will recognize. But if you really want to see your open and clickthrough rates explode, use a referral. A referral is without a doubt the most effective piece of social proof in your arsenal. So if you have a colleague in common, be sure to leverage their name right in the subject line. Another trick you can use is to include links to testimonials in your email signature. It’s an easy way to point prospects to even more social proof without seeming overtly spammy. 4) Call to Action And the final step of the Strategic Cold Email Framework is the call to action. At the end of the email, just ask this: “Does it make sense to jump on a quick call to… [achieve a result]?” Simple. Don’t mix up your messaging by having multiple CTAs. Don’t overcomplicate things with a lot of fluff. Just ask the question. Bam. Pulling It All Together Now, what does this look like when we put it all together? Well here’s the cold email template I mentioned earlier that has all four elements in one winning email.   Subject: Referral from [NAME] at [COMPANY]: Should we connect? Message: Hi [NAME], I was chatting with [NAME] last week, and he said [INDUSTRY] is tough at the moment.  I told him that we help [INDUSTRY] salespeople close more sales in just 28 days, guaranteed! He was a little shocked…  That is a bold statement, right?  Well, we have helped [RELEVANT COMPANY] increase their sales by X% in the past few months. [NAME] their sales manager is dancing on tables right now.  Does it make sense to jump on a quick call to see if we can increase your sales too?  Thanks, Will    See how we’re leveraging social proof right in the subject line and first sentence? Then we’re moving on to demonstrating the need and giving proof. And finally we’re wrapping up with a clear, straight-to-the-point CTA. This is the exact template I use with my cold outreach. And if you use it for yours, I guarantee you’re going to see some pretty spectacular results. And the coolest thing is that is isn’t just the Salesman.org team using this cold email framework, there are literally thousands of ofther sales professionals using it too. Here you can see the Selling Made Simple Academy community and there are thousands of examples of people sharing their emails, getting feedback and getting success from them too. If you’d like to find and close more deals in the next 30 days or your money back, click the link below to book a call with one of our team and we’ll see if you’re a good fit for our program.

Many businesses organize their sales teams into territories based on geography, demographics, or other criteria. Your company has also decided to jump on the sales territory management bandwagon to ensure better outcomes. But how can you ensure you continue hitting your monthly sales quota under this new arrangement? Your experience and your prospect's willingness to buy your product affect your success, but one thing is sure you cannot simply… wing your sales territory management. You need a territory management plan—a solid one at that. This Salesman.org guide will lay out the basics of sales territory management and help ensure you direct your time and energy on activities that have the most impact. What Is Territory Management? A sales territory is a customer group or geographic area over which either an individual sales reps or a sales team has responsibility. Each territory is defined based on specific factors, such as its history, geography, or sales potential—sometimes a combination of these factors. The ultimate aim of managing sales territories this way is to maximize sales and profits while efficiently allocating resources. Sales territories have to be balanced. Otherwise, bad things can happen to performance: If your territory is being under-serviced, you and your team can spread too thinly, resulting in inadequate activity levels. As a result, you'll seek out a few leads, identify fewer prospects, and generate lower revenue. If your territory is being over-serviced, you'll have little work and too many team members to service a smaller area. This will increase costs and overall prices, which will ultimately lead to reduced sales. If you want to get the most value from your prospects, you need to get your territory management right. And the best way to get this? Have a solid territory management plan. 5 Easy Steps To Create an Effective Sales Territory Plan Below, we've created a step-by-step rundown to help you create a winning enterprise territory management plan template and set yourself up for sales success. Step 1: Familiarize Yourself With Your Target Territory The first step when managing a sales territory is to analyze your current and potential customers thoroughly. Think about what your customers have in common, including: Their location Their purchasing behavior, i.e, the product or offering they buy from your business The pain points your product or offering solves for them The events that cause them to buy—or not to buy—your product Also, figure out the needs of the market that are not currently being fulfilled. This analysis will tell you how to position your products or services uniquely, giving you an edge over your competition. Step 2: Do a Self-analysis Be aware of your strengths and weaknesses and your capacity to win business from your new prospects. This will help you develop a territory plan that plays to your strengths while improving any weak areas. Besides your capabilities, you should also consider your organization's resources and think of ways to utilize them efficiently on your sales patch. Step 3: Set Measurable Goals Using the information collected from Step 1 and Step 2, develop goals you want to achieve from implementing your territory management. The goals you could measure include: Total income generated per month Number of calls every week Total sales closed every month The ratio of leads to sales closed every month After identifying your territory management goals, it can be valuable to document them to remain top of mind. There are a few ways you can do this: Goal Statement: Your goal statement should address what you plan to achieve and what is at stake in your sales territory. When you put your goals on paper, it becomes concrete. Instead of wondering about objectives, you know what you want to achieve from which activity. Key Milestones and Deadlines: With a roadmap for approaching your prospects, you will close sales and achieve your goals faster. Break down your plan into smaller milestones to make your road to success clear. For instance, if you want to close $100,000 of new business this year, you can track progress by breaking your plan down into smaller milestones, such as $15,000 by Month 2, $32,000 by Month 3, and so on. Measurable Metrics: You'll need clearly defined KPIs to ensure your business goals are met in an efficient mannor. To get started on the right track, consider metrics like total sales created, leads contacted, and leads closed. Choose metrics that give you insight into productivity and can help track your progress against those goals effectively. Your goals must be realistic and simultaneously push you to improve and grow to meet your sales targets. Step 4: Chalk Out Your Territory Action Plan Creating the plan is where all the action begins! Generally, your sales manager will create a map for you to prevent any overlap between different territories and sales reps. Your job is to ensure you visit all opportunities within your region in a timely and effective manner. Think about how often to call each account and whether the calls should be in person or by phone—or the more remote-friendly option: virtually. By planning out the nuances beforehand, you'll minimize time, effort, and money wastage and can direct your focus on converting your clients. Put your call plans on a calendar and stick to it. This will force you to have the discipline needed to become a successful territory manager. Step 5: Effective Record-Keeping As you implement your territory management action plan, you should maintain an accurate and up-to-date record of outcomes in your organization's CRM. This will help you track your plan's effectiveness. Log everything. If your data tracking starts taking too much time then invest in selling software to help. Sales Territory Management Best Practices Besides creating a sales management plan, you'll have to adopt a few best practices and make them a part of your daily routine to have massive sales success. A: Create a Contact Rotation Schedule Regularly check in on prospects to ensure they have all the information resources to move forward in the buying process. But while you do this, don't come off as too salesy and end up overwhelming them. It's why we highly recommend creating a contact rotation schedule. Use it to determine the communication channel that works best for your specific territory and at what point in the sales process. It'll also make it easier to decide when and how often an account needs a phone call, an in-person visit, or a promotional email. B: Don't Forget Your Current Accounts When Finding New Leads Your sales territory management plan should have a dual focus on providing services to high-value accounts and developing relationships with potential new accounts. High-value accounts are those guaranteed to bring in higher volume sales in shorter periods when compared to other accounts. However, while high-value accounts will help you meet your sales quotas, they aren't enough to smash through it. You'll also have to cultivate new accounts to expand the business and ensure professional growth. C: Change With the Seasons Customer requirements change with the seasons. Depending on the product you're selling, your territory's customer base and conditions might vary during the year. To avoid issues, analyze your territory by looking at sales data over time. Find out: What product or service do people buy during different times of the year? When are they buying it? How much do they spend on them? Based on the data, identify whether your business has slow and busy seasons. Then adjust your goals, priority level, and plan of action as needed. D: Align Your Sales Efforts With Other Departments You are not the only one interacting with customers. While other departments may not be talking to your buyers face-to-face, they're still interacting with your accounts. Try to collaborate with other departments—marketing and customer service—and get them involved with your territory. Maintaining consistent interactions will help you learn valuable insights that you can apply when selling. E: Refresh Your Sales Map Territory management is a never-ending cycle where you must continuously evaluate, implement, assess, and improve your action plan. Yes, this regular evaluation and improvement is a lot of work. But it'll help you achieve more tremendous success and close more deals over the longer term. Even after you draft a strong territory management plan, nothing is set in stone. Conditions can change at any time, regardless of your industry, economy, organization. So keep measuring progress and modifying aspects of your plan to stay relevant and get your desired results. Once you get a firm grasp over your territory, accounts, and current and potential customers, you can effectively crack the complicated code of successful treasury management. All the benefits—and bonuses—will soon follow. Empower yourself with territory management knowledge, and manage your accounts—current and potential—the right way.

Deb Calvert is the President of People First Productivity Solutions, offering sales training, coaching, and leadership development programs. Deb also leads the Stop Selling & Start Leading® movement and founded The Sales Experts Channel. In this episode of The Salesman Podcast, Deb explains how we can use selling questions to remain in control of the sales conversation. You'll learn: Sponsored by: Free SalesCode assessment Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind. Take the free assessment Featured on this episode: Host - Will Barron Founder of Salesman.org Guest - Deb Calvert President of People First Productivity Solutions Resources: Deb on LinkedIn PeopleFirstPS.com Book: DISCOVER Questions Get You Connected: for professional sellers Book: Stop Selling and Start Leading: How to Make Extraordinary Sales Happen Book: Slide:ology: The Art and Science of Creating Great Presentations TheSalesExpertsChannel.com Transcript Will Barron: Coming up on today's episode of the Salesman podcast.   Deb Calvert: Your role as being a leader in any sales conversation. The word origin of lead is guide. So you are the guide. What buyers really want is to be inspired and to be led. If you be as a leader, you become perceived as a leader, and leaders, they operate in the realm of something that's of interest to others.   Will Barron: Hello, Sales Nation. My name is will Barron, and I'm the host of the Salesman podcast. The world's most downloaded B2B sales show. And on today's episode, we have the legend that is Deb Calvert. She is the author of Discover Questions. One of the only sales specific books that I recommend to you guys, Sales Nation, and to anyone else who wants to learn how to sell as well. And we'll get into questions on this episode, how to use questions to stay in control of the sale, no matter what stunts your buyers are trying to pull on you. Everything that we talk about is available in the show note to this episode over at salesman.org. And with that, let's jump right into it.   Who Between the Buyer and the Salesperson Should be in Control of the Sales Conversation? · [01:21]    Will Barron: Conversations is what I want to talk about in this episode. We're going to look at how we can put ourselves, to use your words, in the driving seat of sales conversations moving forward. But let's get right back to basics here for someone who's perhaps relatively new to sales, whose job is it to control and drive a sales conversation forward? Is it the salesperson or is it that we should be listening to the buyer and we should just be sucking up to them and doing whatever they say and letting them be in control of the whole sales process?   “Let's use this metaphor. Imagine being in a car and someone's in the driver's seat and that should be the salesperson, but I think that the buyer should be metaphorically the navigator they should absolutely be involved and you should be very closely listening to them. But before you can even get those roles worked out, you've got to make sure that you're both going to the same place.” – Deb Calvert · [01:40]    Deb Calvert: Well, yes, we should listen to the buyer, but let's use that metaphor. So imagine being in a car and someone's in the driver's seat and that should be the salesperson, but I think that the buyer should be metaphorically the navigator they should absolutely be involved and you should be very closely listening to them. But before you can even get those roles worked out, you've got to make sure that you're both going to the same place. So knowing that destination, you want your buyer to be in the car with you. But here's the thing that I see. And I guess this is really why this conversation is so important. I see a lot of sellers who are thinking that it would be rude or presumptuous to get into the driver's seat, and so instead they end up driving around aimlessly, looking, hoping somebody's going to want to get in the car with them.   Deb Calvert: So that implies first of all, that like it or not, you're in the driver's seat, but are you going to get a buyer in there with you? And the only way you do that in fact is ironically, by making sure it's clear that you're in the buyer's seat to you and to your buyer. You already are there, but making sure that your buyer is going to get into the car with you, that's what this is really all about. And the only way you get them there, just like an Uber driver, is by making sure you're going to that destination where they want to go. And that's how they get in the car with you. Does that make sense? It's very ponderous.   Why Step One in a Sales Conversation Should be Setting a Clear Goal and Guiding the Buyer Towards That Goal · [03:07]    Will Barron: That makes great sense. And Deb, is that step one then of both creating the conversation and the navigation system, is it to suss out going back and forth with the buyer where we are going, is that step one of stating that we're in control and then progressing it towards potentially a close?   “Your role is being a leader in any sales conversation. The word origin of lead is guide. So you are the guide in that conversation with your buyer, and that is driving. You're taking somebody someplace, just like a guide would.” – Deb Calvert · [03:40]    Deb Calvert: I believe it is. And even before that, it's step one of working out in your own mind, your role. Your role as driver. Your role, we'll even position this a little differently. I think people might like this better. Your role as being a leader in any sales conversation. The word origin of lead is guide. So you are the guide in that conversation with your buyer, and that is driving. You're taking somebody someplace, just like a guide would.   Deb Reveals Why Most Salespeople Shy Away from Leading the Sales Conversation · [04:01]    Will Barron: I want to get into questions and how we can navigate this moving forward, but why do perhaps some of the audience and perhaps myself as a younger sales rep, and you can give us your thoughts on this as well, Deb. Why do we sometimes shy away from this leadership role? Is it that we just don't want the responsibility of it? Why isn't it that we're doing this by default?   Deb Calvert: Well, let me separate it from age, because I see a lot of older salespeople who do this too. It's that a seller isn't understanding the buyer and what they really want from a seller. So this is based on research. There are two bodies of research. So it's not just the recent research that went into Stop Selling and Start Leading. But it's the bigger body been going on now for almost 25 years, that'll age me, with discover questions.   “The job of a leader is to take followers to a place the followers want to be. That's what guides do too. So if you think about being in the jungle and chopping down the vines that are in the jungle. As a guide, you're taking somebody somewhere, and you're making it easy for them to get there. But nobody is going to go through that jungle with you if it's not a place they want to be. And frankly, they don't need you, unless it's a place that is a little hard to get to, and they see that you, uniquely, you have some expertise that could get them there.” – Deb Calvert · [05:15]    Deb Calvert: And what buyers really want is to be inspired and to be led. So let me see if I can't use a couple of other visuals here. The job of a leader is to take followers to a place the followers want to be. That's what guides do too. So if you think about being in the jungle and chopping down the vines that are in the jungle. As a guide, you're taking somebody somewhere, and you're making it easy for them to get there. But nobody is going to go through that jungle with you if it's not a place they want to be. And frankly, they don't need you, unless it's a place that is a little hard to get to, and they see that you, uniquely, you have some expertise that could get them there. Well, this is all about positioning that, whether you're using questions, whether you're using inspirational language, but it's all about leadership either way.   Deb Calvert: And so step one is yes, knowing where your buyer wants to go. But even before that, having the mindset that you are a leader who is committed, interested, able to take them there.   How to Squash Buyer Assumptions About Salespeople and Present Yourself as a Thought Leader · [06:27]    Will Barron: It makes all sense, right? I think everyone's nodding their head in agreement with this. And for us to give buyers the ideal buying outcomes, we've sold the same product hundreds of thousands of times. They've probably not bought this product as many times as we've sold it. We've got insights. We've got resources in our own organisation. We can help these people, Deb. But just to play devil's advocate slightly here from the perspective of the buyer. I think most buyers, until they've dealt with you perhaps a couple of times, and perhaps we can talk about how we can set ourselves up to be known and perceived as leaders. Most buyers, when a salesperson reaches out to them, think, “[inaudible 00:06:37], another pesky salesperson trying to grab my money and take something and take up a load of my time.” So how do we set up the conversation so that we come across as a leader? So then I'm assuming that once we're perceived as a leader, all this gets easier as we go throughout the sales process.   “The fastest, quickest way to get away from that being perceived as a pushy salesperson who just wants to reach into my pocket, is that you've asked me a question, or you've somehow demonstrated that you care about me and you're interested in where I want to go and what's important to me.” – Deb Calvert · [07:21]    Deb Calvert: It does. If you behave as a leader, you become perceived as leader. And leaders, they operate in the realm of something that's of interest to others. See, it's not true that leaders live in ivory towers or that leaders are lonely at the top. That's not true. Real leaders, the ones who inspire us that we choose to follow, they have an interest in us. So the fastest, quickest way to get away from that being perceived as a pushy salesperson who just wants to reach into my pocket, is that you've asked me a question, or you've somehow demonstrated that you care about me and you're interested in where I want to go and what's important to me.   Deb Calvert: I say questions because that is frankly the fastest, easiest, clearest way to demonstrate that. Otherwise, you're in the assuming place and that's always dangerous. But a question, some great questions. And this is going to depend on the industry you work on a little bit. It's going to depend on your personality a little bit. It's going to depend on your buyer and what you know about them. But by and large, it's a question that sounds like, “What is it that you hope to accomplish?” Not what do you want to do with my product? That's too early. But bigger. What do you want? What do you hope to accomplish? What are your goals? What are the things that you value right now that are urgent and important to you?   Deb Calvert: And when we start there, it does change the conversation, it does engage the buyer, and it does differentiate you from just that person who's waiting with baited breath to pounce on some opening that is all about you and serving your own interest.   Will Barron: So two things I think you really subtly hear, Deb, and you might not have even realised it, because you're so ingrained in all of this. One, and I've never heard it put like this before. You said you want to be a leader that people choose to follow, as opposed to, we've probably all had that sales manager that's cracking the whip and constantly got us nervous about hitting target and trying to bully us into doing more work. We want to be a leader that inspires. You've used that word a few times. So I think that's important here just to frame up what a leader is and what we are aspiring to be, as salespeople, in front of our audience of buyers.   Will Barron: And the other thing, and I want to just get clarification from you here. When we ask a question like, “What is your goals?” Are we keeping it an open-ended question like that? Or are we asking a more close ended question of, “What are your goals with your marketing this year with this range of products that I also happen to sell?”   The Differences Between a Leader and a Manager in Sales · [09:41]   Deb Calvert: Yeah, those are two very important questions. I'm going to start with the first one, because people often misunderstand this very important thing. Managing and leading are not the same. There are lots of managers who have authority. You to do what they say if you want to keep your job. That's not leadership. Ideally a manager and a leader are the same person, but it doesn't always work that way. Leadership happens at every level and in every kind of a relationship. And leadership is, as I said, it's to guide, whereas manage the word origin there means to handle. I've got to get today's work done today. So that puts leaders more often in the longer term and managers in the shorter term. And I don't mean this to sound disparaging to managers, both leaders and managers are important, but if you don't have a title of manager and you're working with, for example, a buyer where you have no authority, you can still lead. So yeah, really, really good clarification there.   Comparing the Effectiveness of Open-ended Versus Closed Questions in Sales Conversations · [10:43]   Deb Calvert: The other question is a good one. A broader versus a more narrow question. And I do strongly recommend, as counterintuitive as it may sound, because it will feel like it's going to take longer, but I strongly recommend, you start with that broader approach. What are your goals for the year, period? What are your goals for your legacy? What are your goals for your team? These are all bigger questions. They have nothing at all to do with your product. They have nothing at all to do with marketing or positioning or branding. Later, right? Later that question will be fine. But we had started talking about how do you open up the conversation and reposition yourself so that people will willingly choose to follow you. Will stick around with you and take the call with you.   “Let's say you're a media rep. If you ask, “What are your goals for your marketing?” If you're selling some sort of technology, “What are your goals for your user experience? What are your goals for your tech support?” If you ask it in a very narrow way, it becomes too quickly about you and about what you sell. But when you ask it in the broader way, you immediately tap into whatever truly matters to that individual. And then you're talking their language and you're showing them that you care about what matters to them.” – Deb Calvert · [11:40]    Deb Calvert: And let me go ahead and explain and why. When we ask very narrow questions, let's say you're a media rep. If you ask, “What are your goals for your marketing?” If you're selling some sort of technology, “What are your goals for your user experience? What are your goals for your tech support?” If you ask it in a very narrow way, it becomes too quickly about you and about what you sell. But when you ask it in the broader way, you immediately tap into whatever truly matters to that individual. And then you're talking their language and you're showing them that you care about what matters to them. And you're much more likely to be in that space of tapping into what they truly value. That's where you motivate them and inspire them and get their attention and cause them to think about why they ought to spend more time with you.   How to Leverage Open-ended Questions to Spark Buyer Curiosity and Drive Sales Conversations · [12:36]    Will Barron: I feel like if someone asked me a more open-ended question, especially the top of a conversation, I'm more likely to go, “Oh,” and take a step back and actually think about the answer as opposed to, “I'm not interested in that,” which is obviously the response that a lot of sales people will get as soon as they do manage to jump on the phone or so on, because the buyer probably feels like they're being sold out, influenced. And I feel like, yeah, as you were saying that, Deb, I feel like I'd be going, “Oh, maybe I need to think about my goals and write this stuff down. And hopefully this person can give me some insights.” That's the change in dynamic that I would feel in that conversation.   Deb Calvert: It is. And I always appreciate how practical you make the conversations. But I'm going to go a little impractical here for just a moment because I think it's so important for the mindset piece of this. And I'm going to look away from you because I have a quote that I cut out of a newspaper something like 30 years ago. And I have my file organiser. I had taped it on there, and so I can keep that file organised there for this quote, but I want to make sure I quote it very, very quickly. I mean, very correctly. And the quote is from a guy named Daniel H Burnham. It says, “Make no little plans. They have no magic to stir men's blood. Make big plans, aim high in hope and work.”   Deb Calvert: Okay. So what does this have to do with what we're talking about? Well, it is the same thing. It's this bigger everything. Bigger plans, bigger ideas, bigger hopes and dreams. That's where people get inspired. We talk about the little stuff. Let me illustrate it this way. Dr. Martin Luther king Jr., he said, “I have a dream.” And his whole speech, what people remember is the dream. He didn't say, “I have a list of measurable objectives.” And it would not have had the same magic if he had said it that way.   Deb Calvert: It's okay to indulge in that, especially early on. That's what captivates people and gets their interest. That's where you are going to be able to drive a conversation, a relationship, a sale, is if you first get people on board with you. Get them in the car with you and then invite them to navigate, but stay in the driver's seat.   How to Nudge a Sales Conversation Forward · [14:55]    Will Barron: So what do we do then, Deb, next? Hopefully the buyer now has, they've come out with some spiel and they've poured their heart out to us, and we've got a gist, an idea now of both the business objectives and perhaps some of their own personal objectives as well. And how they align and intermingle. How do we, considering the conversation here is about being in control of the conversation. How do we then nudge the conversation forward rather than just doing essentially psychoanalyst on this individual and charging them some kind of psychiatry fee after the fact?   Deb Calvert: I'm going to give you and your listeners the very best example that they can relate to. And then I'll break it down a little bit. You do this really well. Anybody who listens to your podcast, without perhaps knowing it, already has the answer to that question you just asked. This is how you do it. You pay attention to what Will's as the driver of the conversations with the guests he brings onto his podcast.   Will Barron: Let me just say this, Deb, and to interject here. I have no idea what you're going to say. So whatever I'm doing, I'm doing it by accident and inadvertently.   “This is what smart sellers do. They learn, they adapt and they follow some of their better instincts. They also are humble enough to do those adjustments along the way.” – Deb Calvert · [16:25]    Deb Calvert: Well, you're paying attention to your sum of your good instincts, and you've probably learned along the way. I bet if you went back and listened to some of your early podcasts, you might even be horrified. I know I was when I listened to some of the first podcasts or sales calls that I had a chance to play back. But this is what smart sellers do. They learn, they adapt and they follow some of their better instincts. They also are humble enough to do those adjustments along the way.   “First of all, they (good salespeople) don't plan ahead for every single question that they're going to ask. If you script your questions, you might as well not have your buyer in the passenger seat, navigating at all.” – Deb Calvert · [16:55]    Deb Calvert: So what a good salesperson or a good podcaster or a good friend who converses with you, what we do in conversations that takes us step by step to a place where we're leading in a place where we're using questions effectively. They do a couple things. First of all, they don't plan ahead for every single question that they're going to ask. If you script your questions, you might as well not have your buyer in the passenger seat, navigating at all. In fact, that's exactly how they'll feel. They'll feel completely marginalised and they'll feel like it's very robotic and generic. And it's very disinteresting to them.   Deb Calvert: Many podcasters, to keep my comparison going here, many podcasters send a list of questions. In fact, you can tell, send the same questions to everybody who's ever on their podcast. And I guess some guests actually are okay with that, or maybe even like it, because it helps them to feel more prepared. I think after that initial security blanket aspect of it wears off, they also eventually feel, and certainly listeners feel, that it's a little bit boring, and they're not really getting a full amount of information, and it doesn't create opportunities for real, genuine, personalised, relevant, meaningful dialogue.   Deb Calvert: Okay. So first thing is that they don't ask scripted question. Second thing, it's hard, but you listen. You listen to the answer for every question that you asked, and that's a skill and it requires some skill building, but you'll notice as you are listening, to Will, as an example of what I'm describing here. He doesn't ask a question that's unrelated to what I've said. Now, maybe sometimes you have to do that because maybe sometimes guests or buyers get way off course and you've got to rein them in with a question that's different from what they've just said. But more often, your question is a natural one. It drills down around something that they've said it, but builds on what they've just said. For example, your question was, “Okay, that's what we do first. Now tell us, Deb, what do we do next?” It's natural for conversation to flow in that way.   Deb Calvert: And the third thing is that as they're listening, and as they're drilling down, and as they're creating this two-way dialogue that it's a back and a forth, they also do advance the conversation. Will's last question did a good job with that, too. And people are going to start to think we plan this, Will, because [inaudible 00:19:19], but we didn't. But what I mean by advancing the conversation and building on the conversation and directing, driving, steering the conversation without being manipulative or rude in the way that you do it, is that you select out the pieces that are most useful to the goal, the destination that you want to reach. You don't ignore the other important pieces. If I had said something very big, very emotional and took us on a different tangent, you'd have been okay with that. But since our topic is, how do you stay in the driver's seat, and why is that important in a sales conversation, you extracted some of what I had said before and decided to emphasise that as we move forward.   Will Barron: Okay, Deb, tell me this. What is your favourite food?   Deb Calvert: Now there's a tangent, right?   Will Barron: [crosstalk 00:20:15] I was only joking. [crosstalk 00:20:16]   Deb Calvert: Where's he going with that? Even though it's a fun question and I'm laughing as he asks it, I still had that [crosstalk 00:20:22]   Will Barron: Well, it's because you are listening, right? You are actively paying attention. And you're right, I don't send questions across. What I do is typical. We went back on forth. I like to have a headline and a place where we're going to, essentially. And what I try and do in the podcast is, you highlighted it there and this is something I do consciously do, Deb. That is I try and break it down into steps. So at the end of the show, we can wrap it up with, here are the four steps to do X or Y.   Will Barron: Now some podcasts, when you have someone who's just got a really motivational story, sometimes the story's good enough. But I even find when I interview those kind of people, we've had Olympic athletes on the show, I've had astronauts on the show, I've had UFC fighters on the show, I find that just throwing this story back up for the 17 [inaudible 00:21:11] time that week. And so I do try and break things up the best I can with them as well.   The Benefits of Separating Sales Conversations into Different Sections · [21:18]    Will Barron: But is that something that we should be thinking about in our sales conversations, that the conversation is in multiple parts and we know that we're making progress, because we can say, well, we've gone from getting the big picture. Now we've narrowed things down to part B, C, D, E, and F is perhaps we ask the question, “Does it make sense to jump on board? Have another call? Bring in your partners?” Should we be thinking of a sales call that we're trying to stay in control of as having separate sections?   Deb Calvert: Absolutely. So we're in the car, we're driving to our destination, you've got to have things along the way that you're checking off. Am I going the right way? Do I have enough gas? Am I able to make it or do I need to stop for the night? So that yeah, sure, sure. What I really like about this question is that it's making me think about what the typical salesperson does that isn't that. And having those criteria or those chapters worked out, I think that's really smart.   Deb Calvert: Too often, sellers make those checkoffs. Is this a qualified buyer? Did I hear a hint of any need? Like have they ever used or even heard about my product? And do they seem to be giving me a little smile or something that's at least a little bit affirming, and then I'm going to be able to dive in. So we're already doing this, but are we doing it in the right way? I love this question. Yeah. Yes. The answer is yes, people should do that.   “I believe that you have to open a relationship before you can ever close a sale.” – Deb Calvert · [23:05]    Deb Calvert: So that's what they shouldn't do. Let's talk about what they should do instead, very much in a better way. So I believe, and you'll find people who have different answers. I believe that you have to open a relationship before you can ever close a sale. So let's call step one, that we've established enough rapport because of my very broad questions and my true interest in you and understanding what you value and where your head's at right now. That's the first thing. And it doesn't have to take a long time. We know from all sorts of research on what causes people to trust each other and whatnot, that that can be built quickly. So you want to be effective and efficient using questions to get there.   Deb Calvert: And then next as I'm narrowing down, I think the next thing is partially qualifying, but it's not qualifying the way BANT or some other training out there would do it. That's further down in the funnel, in my opinion. The next thing though, it's going to feel a little bit like qualifying to you, but you don't want it to feel that way to the buyer, but it is about now shifting the conversation, drilling down in the conversation to help them understand a little bit more about your product without you selling it.   Deb Calvert: I call these in discover, I call these solution and example questions, and it's about, what are your thoughts about, and tell me a little bit about the contrast between where things are now and where you want them to be. It's enriching the story. It's getting them to start selling themselves in a way, but it's giving you tremendous more insight and you'll pick up some things that qualify for you. Which parts of my product service will they want? Which ones don't they want? And their storytelling as you invite some very broad information is going to serve you really, really well. So long as you're listening and can pick up on it.   Will Barron: I like this idea of contrast. Have you read, Nancy, I think it's Nancy Duarte's books on presentations.   Deb Calvert: I have met Nancy. Now, I'm sure I've read her books because usually when I meet people, I like to read their books, but it's not … I think I told you before, I read one or two business books every week. I used to read one a day. So tell me the names, maybe I'll [crosstalk 00:25:15] or a key theme.   Will Barron: I'll link them all in the show notes. I'm getting a lot of value out of them. So I don't typically read traditional sales books. Obviously, we've got yours on the desk here so I love that. But I tend focus on books around sales and I feel like I learn more from them that is then applicable to a sales role, because I think a lot of sales books point out the obvious and try and sell you on some kind of training on the back of it.   Will Barron: But with that said, Nancy's books, a big part of presentation techniques that she teaches is to contrast either this is what it was like and this is what it could be like, and future pacing people, or this is how things have always been done, this is how things could be done and going back and forth. And that's how she reckons that. For example, she uses Martin Luther King's presentation. She breaks it down and it's here now there's the problems, here's the future, here's things in the past, and going back and forth between all these different opportunities to contrast where we are right now, where we could be, if things go right where we could be, if things go wrong.   Will Barron: And I find that's really valuable in my own sales calls and the training that we do as well, Deb. As you use the storytelling, it starts to paint a real picture in the mind of the buyers, rather than saying our product is going to do X, Y, Z. We're starting to paint this story in the buyer's mind using contrast at this point in the conversation of, they think our product could do X, Y, Z, and if they don't do anything, they think that the future is going to turn out this way.   Getting the Buyer to Buy Into Having a Conversation Before Asking Them to Buy · [26:50]    Will Barron: So how can we get the buyer to think about all of this themselves so we're not putting words in their mouth by perhaps asking questions that allow this contrast and, and sharing of future, the different futures? How can we draw that out of the buyer so again, they're painting the picture and we are listening to it, rather than us saying, we can do X and if you don't do it, you're going to get Y?   Deb Calvert: I mean, and that is so smart because then you're getting buy-in before you ever ask for the buy. It's their idea, not yours. And in customer experience research, this is called, they're participating in creating what they want. This is the E question in the acronym discover. I call it an example question because that's what we're after. And its purpose is to give people the same sort of experience that when you go to buy a new car, that experience is that they put you behind the wheel of the car. They're so much in a hurry to get you to take a test drive because they know you're going to smell the new car interior. You're going to feel that lumbar support. You're going to love how the cup holder's positioned. It's going to be so different from what you're driving right now in positive ways.   Will Barron: Deb, I think me and you buy cars differently, if you are really interested in lumbar support and cup holders.   Deb Calvert: That's the purpose of the test drive. And then afterwards, yes, they're going to pop the top and they know you've already done a lot of research about, you want to V8 in this one, you had that power as you accelerated. Yeah. Yeah. But yes, I'm very much about comfort in my recent purchase.   Will Barron: Sorry to interrupt you there.   Deb Calvert: That's great. There's the age difference coming through. I even like car colour, Will. So yes, so you can't do that unless you sell a product where they get a hands on demo. You've got to do it in their mind instead. And a question about contrast will help do that. So you ask a question like, “Tell me the difference between the experience that you've been having with your X, Y, Z, and what you would consider the ideal experience.” You get them to begin imagining that.   Deb Calvert: Or you give them a little bit of a something like, “What would it be like for you if, instead of having to have somebody on your team do transcription, you could have 95% accurate transcription with AI. What would that be like for you?” And then of course the follow up is, how important would that be to you? You want to know and magnify that value. So, whatever it is that you have to offer and that you know is likely going to be important, you're asking them to give that contrast and be able to fully feel and experience it as much as they can.   Will Barron: So at the top of the conversation, Deb, we've built some rapport, we've asked these big open ended questions, the buyer went, “Oh, this is not what I was expecting from this call.” And there's a tonne of value, and perhaps we're helping them refine what their goals are, to a certain extent on the call, then we start to compare and contrast what life would be like hitting those goals and not hitting those goals. And hopefully at some point our product or service is now nearly in the picture, even though we're not perhaps talking about it directly. How do we then stay in control of the conversation?   How Salespeople Can Stay in Control of the Conversation and Prove to the Buyer That Their Product Will Fix Their Pain Points · [30:10]    Will Barron: And perhaps at this point, I don't know how many minutes we are into the conversation at this point, but how do we start to perhaps steer it towards, to gauge a reaction of whether they think that our product is suitable for them from a perspective of ignoring banter. We assume that most of that has been ticked off, because we've done our research before picking up the phone. So we know that they're somewhat qualified. How do we steer them towards now taking that future reality that they want to move towards and having our product as perhaps the bridge to help them get there.   Deb Calvert: Let me pick up two threads and then I'll answer that question. So you listed a lot of benefits that are really important that we're building up here, but you left one out that's especially important. And that is, as they're telling these stories, as they're making these contrast, you're also overcoming any price objection that would've come automatically later on. When they ask about price, it's going to be offset by all this value that's been building up. And it really is true, this actually happens. So you're also supplanting price as the primary consideration in their mind. Okay.   Deb Calvert: And then the second thing you said was who knows how long we are into this conversation by now. So I want to offset that and let people know that this is actually a much more efficient way of selling. It's effective. You're going to get more yeses more often. You're going to have a longer conversation right now, but not hours like you might be imagining that it would be. Purposeful, good, well crafted, good sequence in your questions, makes everything happen faster, ultimately, including the yes, the advancing of this sale to a yes.   Deb Calvert: Okay. So how do you do it? So now we have gotten them to tell us what their goals are. We've gotten them to tell us these contrasts between current state and desired future state. We've gotten some indication of value. What matters most? Why does it matter? How important is it? And now that we're moving down this narrowing, we're at the place now where we're bridging between probably value that's on the table and the decision process. We need to understand it and begin getting them to think about it. so we've asked some questions like what are your thoughts about, and what would that mean to you? And give me the difference between. So value again.   Deb Calvert: So you told me what's most important to you is. What's it going to take internally for you to make that happen? And what will your primary criteria be as that decision's made, for you and for others? And how is my product stacking up here as you evaluate it based on these criteria? And what have we not talked about that would seal the deal and make that happen for you and for others inside the company? Okay. So, now we're in the realm of selling, but still we're getting information and it's the buyer who is navigating as you steer with your questions.   How to Drive a Sales Conversation into a Close · [33:01]   Will Barron: So what's the final step in this process? I feel we've got four steps so far, Deb. Is it always to ask a question like, does it make sense to do X, Y, or Z, and get a definite yes. Or is the opportunity to go back to open-ended questions? What was the end goal with all of this process?   “But at some point, you need to know yes or no. Being caught up in endless continuances and maybes doesn't serve you or them well at all.” – Deb Calvert · [33:45]    Deb Calvert: Yeah. We do want to get to a place where there's a yes or a no. It may be in the same sales call, it may not be. It depends on the complexity of your sale, of course. So, we've been sort of talking about the discovery process at this point. For certain kinds of products, you could bridge that straight into a close. For others, there are going to be more meetings and demos and timeframes that come into play. But at some point, yes, you need to know yes or no. Being caught up in endless continuances and maybes doesn't serve you or them well at all.   Will Barron: So is it fair to say then that we are starting with big, audacious questions and then slowly, perhaps even get more strategic with the questions and they're getting narrow and more closed as we go towards the end of the conversation?   “They're getting more narrow in focus and more about you and the need as it does now fit your product. So the big need is, in my company we have committed to. And my role in that is that I'm responsible for. And that means I'm going to need. And your product does. And now let's make it happen.” – Deb Valvert · [34:10]    Deb Calvert: Yeah, absolutely. They're getting more narrow in focus and more about you and the need as it does now fit your product. So the big need is, in my company we have committed to. And my role in that is that I'm responsible for. And that means I'm going to need. And your product does. And now let's make it happen.   Will Barron: That could be on a poster, Deb. Literally what you just said then should be on a poster as a general framework for people as they're on conversations to prompt them to move down this funnel of questioning.   Deb Calvert: Well, you call it the question sequence funnel and discover questions, but you're right, I need to revise it because that was better than what's in the book.   Will Barron: I would have a poster like that. It'd be something that you could even have it on the desk sitting here. But that would be a cool thing to have, especially if you've got your little office cubicle, especially if you're doing inside sales. Something like that could be a real subtle, useful prompt for people to just subconsciously encourage them to keep moving forward and making progress and staying in control of the sale.   What To Do When You’re trying To Be a True Inspirational Leader But the Prospect is Still Treating You Like a Pesky Salesperson · [35:19]   Will Barron: There's two things I want to quiz you on to wrap up the show, Deb. One is completely off topic so I'll save that for in a second. But what do we do when we are trying to be the true inspirational leader? We're trying to help our buyer navigate us towards a place where everybody wins. We deliver our product, they get an incredible service that far outweighs in the value that they get, that the price that they're paying for it. What do we do when the buy still is retreating, goes like a pesky salesperson, even though we are pretty much doing everything right, what kind of questions can we ask that are perhaps a hard restart that allow us to re-grab hold of any control that we possibly can?   Deb Calvert: I was listening to some chorus recordings for a newer client last week, and I loved this example. So I'll give you a fresh new example. This seller had done a lot of things right. And there were two buyers, this was all in a Zoom meeting and it was the third or fourth meeting. And it was still very much the buyer having all those stereotypes in mind, literally saying things like, “I know that's probably going to work out better for you commission wise, but,” and always assuming the worst kinds of statements that were not deserved by this particular seller.   Deb Calvert: And so finally the salesperson, I mean, I don't think this was made up or acting at all, but the seller eventually just said, “Okay, look, I work really hard at not being like every stereotypical sales person out there, and you're giving me a really hard time. Am I ever going to be able to earn your trust and be viewed differently?” And he just, and he didn't say anything else. He just like froze and looked into the camera at the end of that. And I watched the buyer get really, really uncomfortable. And the other person, the other buyer who hadn't been acting that way was so embarrassed.   Will Barron: [crosstalk 00:37:12] watching, yeah?   Deb Calvert: Yeah. And it broke things down. And the buyer acknowledged, yeah, I have been kind of hard on you and maybe that's not fair. And would you give me another chance? I'm sorry I was acting that way.” I don't know if it'll work in every situation, but a moment of real, that came from a place of integrity, I think, and a moment of just real … It requires confidence. It requires leadership to do something like that. And it was effective.   Be Assertive, Not Aggressive and Take Control of a Sales Conversation · [37:45]    Will Barron: Is there a level of assertiveness here that … We're doing the job. We're doing the job the best we can. We're being professional. We're trying to help the buyer. It's going to be clear if you're trying to just rip someone off. It's going to be clear through your subconscious, body language, and all that stuff that we can talk about in another episode. We're coming from the place here that hopefully the audience do have integrity what they do. They're listening to a show like this, right, because they want to improve their professional skills. How much of this is being, I guess, how can I put it? How much of it is being just candid and open and honest with the buyer versus being assertive and saying, “Hey, look, you are not being professional here. And I'm trying my best.”   Deb Calvert: I do think that assertiveness is appropriate. Let's make sure everybody understands that assertiveness means equally that my needs are being met and your needs are being met. Different from aggressiveness where I begin to trample on your needs because I'm so forceful with my own. So it requires this balance, which in essence is what we've been talking about all along. I ask questions. I listen. I have an interest before I try to be interesting. There is some give and take here.   Deb Calvert: But too many sellers do the other extreme and they're so deferential. So there's aggressive, there's assertive, and then there's passive and you're not supposed to be passive. That's where you're not in the driver's seat and you're expecting the buyer to do their job and yours too. So assertive is a very good summary of what we've been talking about here.   Will Barron: I'm glad you said that, Deb. And the reason I asked that is we've got thousands and thousands of sales assessments over at salesman.org now of our sales code assessment. And we find that the majority of salespeople are either passive or aggressive on the as assessment, and the accuracy of assessments is a bit wishy washy with very specific terms like this.   Will Barron: But there is clear correlation between the people who drive the most revenue and who hit the most commissions each year being slap bang in the middle of being assertive. So you kind of framed it up the way that we frame it up in our training as well. And it makes total sense, right? Because if you are unable to ask for the business and your needs are getting met and their needs are getting met, nothing's going to happen if you try and bully someone. They're going to have buyer's remorse, even if they do buy, and you're going to have people complaining, customer service are going to get hounded.   Will Barron: And of course, if you're on the far end of all this, and you're just passive and you are in the backseat while someone else is navigating and driving. You've got no control and you've no idea. If you're in the backseat, you're not doing your job right because you're not adding any value to the conversation. You're just there along for the ride.   Deb Calvert: Yeah, it's true. That's not leadership and that's not what buyers want. So I want to underline that everything we're talking about, it's not just about what works in selling, it's about what buyers want from you. So feel emboldened by that.   Actionable Tips For Keeping Multiple Conversation Threads in Your Head and Add Value to a Sales Conversation · [40:50]    Will Barron: I've got one final question, Deb, and this is something that it's totally left field and nothing to do with anything we've talked about so far, but it's a skill that you've done about five times in the interview so far, because I've asked some pretty average questions and you've pulled them back from their brain and given really good answers. But you're very good at holding seemingly multiple threads of a conversation in your head at once and multiple times, you've said, “Well, I'll answer this then I'll answer this.” And by the time you've answered the first part, I forgot the second part that I asked you originally. And you've got all this wrapped up in your brain. And is there any strategies to that? Is there anything you are doing to keep track of all these different threads of conversation? Because I feel that could be really valuable to sales people, especially if you ask a big open ended question and the buyer comes at you with seven different opportunities for you to continue the conversation, keeping track of three or four of them, I find personally, is difficult.   “It is not true that buyers are going to feel like you're not listening to them or that you're not making eye contact with them if you take notes. In fact, buyers like it, they feel important when you take notes.” – Deb Calvert · [41:48]    Deb Calvert: Well, I think note taking helps. So, if the next thing I tell you seems daunting, just know that you can take notes. It is not true that buyers are going to feel like you're not listening to them or that you're not making eye contact with them if you take notes. In fact, buyers like it, they feel important when you take notes. So it's a good thing and it will help you track those different threads that you want to respond to.   Deb Calvert: The second thing is that it's a discipline and it all goes back to what we have talked about. It's about listening. So I'll provide one tip since that's what you're asking for. And I love how you always get things to the practical level. One way that you can listen at this level and retain more information is by dumping the other stuff out of your head. Be confident enough not to be worried that if you don't respond right now, which means you might interrupt, or if you don't respond because it's fresh in your mind and your passion is going to come out if you answer that one thing right now. Those are fallacies.   Deb Calvert: So to dump things out of your mind means that you will not be trying to craft your answer. Have confidence that it's going to come. You made it a little note about it mentally or on paper. The answer's going to come when the time is right. Listen for what else is there.   “Don't listen for what's similar. It will make you rude and it will make you narrowly focused. Listen in every conversation you ever have for what's not familiar, for what's different, for what is coming out a little unlike what you already expected or are used to. That's where the real gold is because that's where you get to learn more and it's where you're going to be dignifying the other person who's speaking.” – Deb Calvert · [43:15]    Deb Calvert: And the other part of that tip is different from what most people do. We mostly listen for and respond to what's similar or what's immediate. That's why we interrupt because we think we have to catch the one thing before another thing gets piled onto it. Not true. Don't listen for what's similar. It will make you rude and it will make you narrowly focused. Listen in every conversation you ever have for what's not familiar, for what's different, for what is coming out a little unlike what you already expected or are used to. That's where the real gold is because that's where you get to learn more and it's where you're going to be dignifying the other person who's speaking.   Will Barron: That makes total sense. I love that, Deb. And just for context, I know the audience will get to see it here. So I start off the show with a few questions, just so I'm on track, and then I will write down BANT. Make it clear, choose to follow, questions, leader, navigate, objections. So objections are something that I wanted to come back to, but we're not going to have time to come back to. So that's how I try and keep track of this.   Will Barron: But I was just amazed the way you were doing a better job of it than me. I don't think you're writing notes there. I think you're just doing it all mentally, and that's a real skill. Clearly you're just crushing it and you're an expert in asking questions and answering them. You're proving that the case study is perfect of yourself, Deb. But I just thought that was interesting for the audience as a little tidbit to add on the end of the show.   Parting Thoughts: Deb’s Books and How to Get in Touch with Her · [44:30]    Will Barron: And with that, Deb, I guess the next step very clearly for the audience is to buy both the books that we've mentioned so far. So tell us more about both of them and where we can find more about you as well.   Deb Calvert: Well, Discover Questions Get You Connected is now seven years old. It continues to show up on lots of lists like HubSpots, they curate ratings from Amazon. And more recently it was on another list of top 10, top 20 most highly sales books of all time for sales people. Things like that. I'm very proud of that book. It's based on research with buyers and observations of calls with sellers in the field or on the phone. So it's sounds very wonky and academic, but hopefully as most of those reviews will tell you, it's also very much about examples and clear ways that you can improve your question asking and rapport building skills.   Deb Calvert: And the other book also based on buyer research is called Stop Selling and Start Leading. It's based on a body of research with B2B buyers. It gave them choices of behaviours that they could have in sellers and ask them if they would like those and if they'd respond by buying. And it turns out that the ones they like are behaviours more often associated with leaders than with sellers, hence the conclusion that you want to be a leader as you're working with buyers.   Will Barron: Perfect. And I want to [inaudible 00:45:49] both available on Amazon. I link to them both in the show note to this episode as well. Deb, just plug your homepage whilst we're at it, and tell us a little bit also about the sales experts channel.   Deb Calvert: Okay. So my company is called People First Productivity Solutions, peoplefirstps.com. Tonnes of stuff there. I like to give stuff away. And the sales experts channel is my pet project, my give back to the sales community, where I invite lots of other sales experts around the world. We've had over 300 writers, authors, bloggers, podcasters researchers, thought leaders come in and contribute inspirational and educational content. We've got 70,000 people over there. So if you're not there, you might find that there's a tonne. The salesexpertschannel.com.   Will Barron: Perfect. Again, I'll link to all this in the show notes over at salesman.org. [inaudible 00:46:38] Deb. And thank you again. I really enjoy, I don't say this to everyone and usually I would say this off air after the show, but I really enjoy chatting with you. There's never a question that I can't ask you. And without Deb, thanks again for the insights and for joining us on the Salesman podcast.   Deb Calvert: Thank you, Will.  

In just seven years, the SaaS industry has grown from $31.5 billion to an astounding $171.9 billion. And by 2024, it’s on track to reach $369.4 billion! For sales reps like you, the writing on the walls is this—no matter what you sell today, you’ll be selling SaaS in your next sales role. And that my friends is a good thing. Today we’re talking about why, and what you can do to take advantage of this massive sales industry shift. Let’s get real here. The job you have right now? You probably won’t have it forever. Businesses go under. Goals and needs change. And salary objectives shift. That’s okay! The average person will change their job five to seven times during their working life. What matters, though, is how prepared you are for that next job. And as a sales professional, it’s incredibly likely that your next position is going to be in an SaaS company. So in order to make that transition as smooth as possible, you owe it to yourself to find out what this industry is all about. And most importantly, what does working in it mean for you? Alrighty, so starting out, let’s hit a basic question… 1. What Is SaaS? Well, SaaS is short for “software as a service.” Basically, it’s a model where businesses license software to customers in exchange for a subscription, be it monthly, yearly, or any other timeframe. These businesses also “deliver” the software in a sense by hosting it over an internet connection. As a result, customers don’t have to install via a CD, have a tech crew come in and set up their system, or engage in any other cumbersome physical onboarding. Connection is on-demand. And with just a few clicks, customers can start using the product for their business. Think of apps like Dropbox, HubSpot, or cloud-based Microsoft Office 365 Okay so the question is… 2. Why Will You Be Selling It Well to put it simply, companies across the world are making the shift to this model because it offers some very real and very lucrative benefits. For instance… A) It Brings In More Revenue It brings in more revenue. And it brings in more consistent revenue. See, an SaaS model is built on recurring subscriptions. If a customer doesn’t cancel their subscription, they’ll be billed again for the next cycle. And that means the default is staying a customer. Compare that to the traditional model. The default after a purchase is nothing. Because it takes work for that customer to buy again. So as long as an SaaS company is keeping its buyers happy, those customers won’t go through the hassle of canceling. And given our tendency toward the path of least resistance, that often means an SaaS company will bring in more money over time compared to traditional models. Plus, that revenue is consistent, making it easier to plan ahead. B) Allows for Automatic Upsells Allows for automatic upsells. SaaS products typically have multiple tiers to choose from. The more you pay, the more functionality and features you gain access to. So as an SaaS customer’s needs grow and expand, they can seamlessly choose to upgrade to a new tier. No searching for a new provider. No going through a whole new lengthy sales cycle. Instead, they can make the switch with just the click of a button. Easy as that. C) Higher Business Valuations Higher business valuations. Now, there are two components to this idea. First, SaaS is expanding. Remember what I said before? About SaaS growing 5X over the last seven years? And nearly 12X from 2015 to 2024? That means the future is SaaS. And businesses are valuated according to that trend. Secondly, and this might be above our heads as just knuckle-dragging salespeople. But we sell what drives a company’s shareholder value. The easier it is for US to sell, the better a company is going to fare. And the more it’s going to be worth. 3.  Why This Shift Is Great Why is this shift great for you as a sales professional? What does all this mean for on-the-ground benefits? Well, first and foremost, there’s… A) Long-Term Residual Commissions Long-term residual commissions. If your mouth isn’t watering already at the thought here, it should be. Many SaaS businesses reward their salespeople with commissions that continue over the course of a customer’s relationship with the product. So if a client stays subscribed for, say, 10 years, you will continually earn a commission for that lifetime. Just imagine, a single sale can lead to a decade of recurring payouts. Sounds like heaven! The only trick here is that the better you sell them on your product, the more likely they’ll be to stick around. So it’s still worth putting in the effort up front and focusing on your skills. B) An Easier Closing Cycle For SaaS products, most customers get the majority of their info from automated funnels. Ebooks, case studies, how-tos, in-depth articles—this is where your clients will dive deep into what your product can do AND what they can do with it. As a result, you don’t have to do as much selling as with traditional models. On top of that, implementation is as easy as a click of a button. And the ability to split costs on a month-by-month basis lowers the biggest barrier to buying—expense. And you know what that means—it’s easier to close! C) Clearer Selling Points SaaS products are, by their very nature, dependent on the internet. And that dependence brings with it a few very clear selling points that you can use to nudge buyers towards that “yes.” For instance, many SaaS products are designed to work in tandem with other solutions. For instance, HubSpot integrates with over a hundred different apps to simplify automating your business, updating your contacts, and much more. That dependence on internet connectivity also allows for regular software updates and hassle-free cancellations. And these, like integrations, make selling your product easier. Giving you more time and the opportunity for more sales success.

We all know the stereotype of the dodgy used car salesman. But contrary to popular belief, sales isn't about tricking people into buying. Instead, it's about giving customers the solution to their problem (whether they know they have the problem or not). The tricky part for salespeople is finding out if their solution is a good fit for their buyer's needs. Is that buyer actually struggling with a problem you can solve? Do their needs align with what you can provide? Are they equipped with the resources to use your solution correctly? Discovery calls are designed to provide this invaluable information and more. With this discovery info, you can better qualify leads, craft the perfect sales pitch and close more deals. This guide will help you uncover your buyer's actual needs and home in on their underlying business problem with a simple step-by-step sales process. We'll be looking at nine open-ended discovery questions along with 12 powerful follow-up questions. What Are Discovery Questions? Discovery questions are the questions you ask sales leads during a discovery call. Of course, you've likely already learned a bit about the prospect before jumping on the phone. But your discovery call will help you fill in the details about their situation and create a clearer picture of their needs. The answers to your discovery questions let you determine several things. If your product offering can solve the needs of a sales lead. If you can deliver your product within the buyer's constraints (i.e., timeline, budget, etc.). The best way to pitch your product. If the prospect's answers line up well during your discovery call, then they'll move on to the next phase of the sales process. If not, you can redirect them through another nurturing campaign. Or they'll drop out from your sales funnel entirely. So, what makes a sales discovery question effective at uncovering your sales lead's genuine business problems? Principles of Great Sales Discovery Questions The types of discovery questions (and how you ask them) determine the quality of the information you extract on your call. With the right discovery call questions, you can get to the heart of your prospect's needs. The wrong one? You may lose the buyer's trust and sink the deal entirely. So, what do great sales discovery calls look like? They're Open-Ended – Avoiding “yes or no's” gets the sales lead talking and lets them avoid feeling “trapped” into an answer. They're Informed – Do your research beforehand. Novice-level questions torpedo your credibility in an instant. But informed ones prove you're a professional worthy of trust. They Move the Needle – Each question you ask should always take you one step closer to qualifying or disqualifying. They allow sales reps to dig deeper and move the entire sales process forward. There's value in building rapport, but time is precious. So don't waste it on filler. Try to keep questions in line with proven frameworks like MEDDPICC. They're Ripe for Follow-Up Questions – A discovery call should be a conversation, not an interrogation for your prospect. They should add value to the potential buyer. Asking relevant follow-up questions lets you naturally uncover pain points and hints for creating a perfectly catered sales pitch. Plus, it helps build rapport which will help your deals close faster. 9 Qualifying Discovery Questions for Sales Asking the right discovery call questions is key to uncovering the information you need to create an irresistible sales pitch. So lets get practical. Below are nine discovery questions you should always use on your discovery calls. You'll also find 12 follow-up questions you can use to extract even more valuable info. 1. “Tell Me About Your Company & Your Role” Once you've broken the ice, it's time for some sales discovery. This question lets the potential buyer take the lead and ease into the conversation at their own pace. Best of all, people love talking about themselves. So they'll often be excited to share. Besides building rapport, you'll also be uncovering hints about the prospective buyer. Hints like do they have decision-making power in this deal? What areas of the business do they oversee? And what difficulties have they been hitting recently? Great Follow-Up Question: “What specific metrics are you responsible for?” – Perfect for aligning your pitch to what's specifically essential to their role. Plus, it may help uncover their decision-making power along the way. 2. “Tell Me About Your Upcoming Goals” This question is an excellent lead-in to get more information specifically related to the prospects business needs. It's a fundamental discovery call question. For example, are they looking for a way to save on costs? Streamline their processes? Boost their customer satisfaction? Plus, the open-endedness of it keeps the conversation moving forward without sounding pushy. Great Follow-Up Question:  “What is your timeline for achieving those goals?” – The buyer's answer to this question lets you determine if the implementation for your product matches up with their timeline needs.   3. “What's Keeping You From Achieving These Goals?” It may be vague. But by keeping things general, you'll be able to extract which problems are the most pressing for the decision maker. Along the way, you can determine if they're struggling in areas related to your product offerings. This question also leads the buyer into a “challenge-oriented” state of mind. The more concrete those challenges become in their heads, the more valuable your product will seem if it can solve them and the more likely you'll be to move forward in the sales process. Great Follow-Up Question:  “Why are you having those problems?” – The answer here helps identify if their current solution is working and if yours can help. 4. “What Happens if These Problems Go Unresolved?” Setting up the “what if” scenario should be a go-to in your sales toolbox when talking with the decision maker. It solidifies the risks involved in letting this problem go. It underscores the challenges the prospect is facing. And if the consequences are dire, it makes your solution to their problem that much more appealing. Beyond that, this question also lets you gauge the buyer's urgency, whether you need to increase that urgency in your final pitch and their real pain points. Great Follow-Up Question:  “What would success look like exactly?” – This follow-up helps you determine if their expectations are realistic and if you can help—both vital for deciding whether to qualify or disqualify. 5. “Who Else Is Involved in Choosing a Solution?” One of the essential aspects of any qualification framework is determining the authority of your contact. Do they have decision-making power? Or are they just the gatekeeper who reports back to the actual authority? Rather than asking, “Who's really in charge here?” this question lets you uncover that information without eroding the rapport with your current contact. Great Follow-Up Questions:  “Do you already have specific criteria crafted for choosing a solution” – The holy grail of qualifying and disqualifying information. Some buyers won't give up these criteria willingly. But if you've built up a great rapport, you may be able to get access. “Who created those criteria?” – A subtle hint at who the decision-makers are. 6. “If We Can Find the Right Solution for Your Problem, What Will It Take To Implement The Solution?” The point of this question is three-fold. First, this question gives you a clearer idea of the process ahead. What steps will we need to go through to get the deal approved? Which departments will it have to pass through beforehand? The info here will help you nail down a timeline and hint at their authority. Second, it further connects your product to the idea of solving their underlying problem. And that makes it easier for them to get to “yes.” And lastly, using the vital “we” language puts you and the buyer on the same team and boosts rapport. Great Follow-Up Questions:  “What are the main hurdles you see for a smooth implementation?” – This further clarifies the last question and gives you an idea of the potential challenges involved ahead, not just the decision-making process. “What are your other options for solving this problem?” – This question reveals your competitors or whether the buyer is considering putting the project off. Either way, it'll give you specifics to leverage in your pitch. 7. “What Is Your Implementation Timeline?” Now we're a bit more in the nitty-gritty. And by this point, you'll have built up a strong rapport, so tackling these details should be acceptable. How much time do we really have here? And is it even feasible? Here you'll want to be checking for realistic expectations and disqualifying information, too. If the prospects current solution isn't driving some serious pain points, then now is the time to end the discovery call and move on. Great Follow-Up Question:  “Are you ready to begin solving this today?” – How urgently are they ready to fix this problem? Ideally, you'll want them to be excited about the solution. And if they aren't, it's your job to build that excitement. 8. “What Is Your Approximate Budget?” Discussing monetary terms can always be tricky. So be sure to leave this question for later in the discovery conversation. Keeping figures ballpark is a great way to soften the blow, too. That being said, enquiring about the budget is a necessity. If they can't afford the project, then this deal is a non-starter. Great Follow-Up Question:  “Is the budget owner an ‘executive sponsor'?” – Are there any senior-level employees directly involved? If so, will you be speaking with them too? 9. “How Will This Make Your Life Better?” Last but not least, it's essential to wrap up your conversations by helping your sales lead envision their future specifically. Will they have more time on their hands? Can they finally start attracting their ideal audience? Will their department be able to boost their efficiency and meet lofty goals? Get the buyer to think about those benefits. Doing so makes your solution more appealing. It also motivates your sales lead to sell your product more passionately to other stakeholders. Great Follow-Up Question:  “How can I help make this easy?” – This final question lets the buyer ask you questions and request more information if needed. Plus, it's a great way to continue building rapport. Learn To Ask the Right Questions A strategic discovery call does more than just let you see if a sales lead is a good fit for your business. It also allows you to uncover valuable information that can be used to deliver a spot-on sales pitch. For you, that means higher close rates and better commissions. If you're getting on plenty of sales calls with leads but still struggling to understand what their business problems are, asking these nine discovery questions will help.

Look, I’m a busy guy. I run a sales training company, produce hours of content each week, run 15-20 weekly training calls, and single-handedly sell 7-figures worth of enterprise level training packages. But I also take my dog on long walks every day. I practice drums each morning for an hour. And my family life is full and fulfilling. It’s true you don’t have time to do it ALL in sales. But if you prioritize your time for maximum productivity like I do, you can still be highly successful in B2B sales while living your best life. Here’s how. 1. Reverse Engineering So much time is wasted on tasks that don’t do a damn thing to help you reach your goals. It’s a problem that comes from having the wrong perspective. Instead of looking forwards to decide what needs to be done to reach your destination, look backwards. Imagine what you want, typically it’s going to be a financial goal. From there, start moving backwards in time. What do you have to do each year that’ll build up to that goal? What about each month? Each day? Say you want to earn an extra $50k this year. Let’s start there. $50k in commissions equals an extra 30 closed deals. For every closed deal, there are 24 discovery calls that don’t work out. Which means you need 750 discovery calls in a year or about 190 per quarter, 63 per month, and around 15 per week. And with those numbers in mind, you’ve got EXACTLY the work you need to do each day to reach your goal. 2. Time Blocking Next up is time blocking. This is one of my favorites. I’ve even talked about it before. Essentially, you need to start scheduling your important tasks. Don’t just have a mental to-do list that you’re crossing off throughout the day. Instead, put all the tasks you need to have done into your calendar. But here’s the most important part—you have to stick to those times. Don’t spend a second more or a second less on the tasks that you schedule. If you waver even just a little from those scheduled times, tasks will start to bleed over into others. And the entire system falls apart. So schedule it. And stick to it like hell. 3. Paper To-Do Keeping a paper list with you at all times makes it easy to add to it and cross things out throughout the day, no matter where you are. Feel free to plug them all into a digital list at the end of the day to keep things organized. I do the same thing with the app Things on iOS. But there’s something so viscerally satisfying about crossing tasks off one by one. 4. Phone Pruning This one’s going to hurt. But trust me, it’s worth it. Get rid of the distractions on your phone. Facebook, WhatsApp, LinkedIn even. If you’re spending non-work time on it, nix it. Now, there are some features out there that make it 10X easier to concentrate while at work. I use the Focus feature on iOS all the time. But eliminating ANY temptation whatsoever is a powerful way to keep your eye on the ball at all times. 5. The Pomodoro Technique This technique is surprisingly effective for how simple it really is. Next time you’ve got a task you don’t want to be doing, say cold calling or updating your CRM, commit yourself to it for 25 minutes. That’s it. And then schedule a five minute break. When you structure your entire day with this technique, something pretty amazing happens—you stop wanting to stop. I’ve found the hardest thing for me is simply getting started on a task. After that part’s over, my momentum usually just keeps me going and going. With this technique, you’re making the biggest barrier (getting started) easier to overcome. After all, it’s just 25 minutes! 6. Parkinson’s Law I like this one a lot because it’s so unintuitive. Parkinson’s Law basically states that the time it takes to finish a task depends on how much time you allot to doing it. So if you’re giving yourself three hours to perform some menial task that should only take one hour, it’s still going to take three hours to do. The moral of the story here is that you should experiment with harsher self-imposed deadlines. Sure what you produce might not be quite as polished, but you’ve now bought yourself time to polish and refine the finished product, rather than being in a rush to finish it last minute. 7. Continuous Structure Technique seven, continuous structure. How often do you find yourself struggling to be productive after a lazy weekend? All the time, right? Well the problem is, you’ve only got one brain. And when your habits and your thoughts are one way at the office and the complete opposite at home, making the switch between the two can be damn difficult. So instead of trying to keep the two separate, try using the same techniques in both. If you find for example that time blocking is doing wonders in the office, try doing it for date night with your partner each week. Fight to protect it like you would a massive client meeting. You may be surprised how well these techniques work in both worlds. 8. The Power of “No” And eight, the power of no. Stop being so nice. Just stop it. Agreeing to every demand, every unreasonable meeting time, every covering of someone else’s blunder—it’s sucking the energy right out of you. Even worse, it’s letting colleagues, clients, and yes, bosses, know that it’s 100% a-okay to walk all over you. Listen, you’ve only got one life. And if you want to make your goal omelet, you’re gonna have to break a few eggs. Start getting comfortable with saying no more often. Saying “no” gives clear boundaries. It stops clients walking all over you. And saying it just a few times a day will free up hours and hours of time each week. Time you can spend on more important things like I don’t know, say doing what you want. So say no. There’s no way you’ll regret it. How much you can get done each day comes down to time management. And if you want to get better at using your time more wisely, use these eight techniques…

Only 19% of sales close, so you can have lots of selling conversations and the best closing skills but still not win new business consistently. That's because there is more to closing a sale than asking for the business. Not all prospects are a good fit for your product or service. And if your potential buyer isn't ready to make a purchase, then your odds of successfully closing the deal is dead. That's why you need to recognize your prospects' buying signals. But this isn't only about identifying when your leads are ready to buy your product or service. These signs occur throughout the buyer's journey. So, you need to watch and listen for buying signals during prospecting calls, discovery calls, demos, and every other prospect engagement. This includes phone calls, emails, social media interactions, data within your sales tools and video calls. But what are buying signals? Definition of the term ‘buying signals' Buying signals are verbal and non-verbal cues, signs, or indicators that tell you when the lead is either ready to buy or interested in moving forward in their buying process. You will often see buying signals from your prospect when a lead schedules a discovery call or when an opportunity responds to an email you've sent requesting additional information. In both cases, the prospect is giving buying signals indicating their interest in moving forward even though they aren't ready to become customers yet, by signing on the dotted line. Buying signals are like road signs, helping you recognize how to proceed with each prospect. A lack of buying signals might even mean not advancing them through the sales process. Why are buying signals essential to recognize? Spotting these buying signals is more critical than ever because sales reps are getting less time with prospects. For example, B2B buyers currently spend only 17% of their time meeting with potential suppliers. And if the prospect is considering multiple solutions, your time with this potential customer drops to as little as 4-5% of the time it takes for them to make a buying decision. This lack of face time with your leads gives you less time to pick up on indicators that the lead is interested in buying or moving forward with the sales process. So, it's essential that you learn to quickly recognize buying signals as they happen so you can respond appropriately. Reading the prospect's buying signals can also save you time by allowing you to disqualify potential customers too. You want to disqualify potential buyers because you don't want to spend precious selling time with prospects who aren't a good fit for your product. They are less likely to close or may take longer to close and are more likely to be dissatisfied or churn. Churn is when a customer cancels their subscription to your product after a short period or chooses not to renew. Ultimately, by spending your time with highly qualified leads who will most benefit from your solution, you significantly increase your close rate. What are buying signals in sales? Buying signals can be verbal or non-verbal, and some are more subtle than others, but with practice, you can learn to recognize all the different buying signals communicated by your prospects. Here are some examples of positive buying signals or signs when a prospect is interested in buying from you: Non-verbal buying signals: Nodding, direct eye contact, and paying attention during your conversation or presentation. This is a sign the lead is interested. If you can't see the other person, listen carefully to determine if they are fully engaged in the conversation. Smiling and appearing excited about your product or service is undoubtedly a positive sign. If you cannot see the person, you can listen for a positive tone in their voice. Involving others on the buying committee in meetings, calls or email communications indicates the prospect is seriously considering taking the next step in the buying process. Responding quickly to email communications shows the prospect is interested in continuing the conversation with you. Quality of email responses is a buying signal, too, since a prospects willingness to provide detailed and timely responses to email inquiries reveals their level of interest in advancing through the buying process. Open Communication buying signals: Openly discussing the needs, challenges, and problems the lead want to solve shows that the prospect is intent on finding out if your product is the best solution. Telling you about problems or issues with their current vendor is a transparent buying signal from your sales lead revealing that they are unhappy with the solution they are using. This enables you to learn more about the potential customer's preferences. Sharing their goals, ideal end-state, or desired results is also an indicator that the prospect wants to give you the information needed to determine if your product or service will meet their needs. Expresses an interest in future communications like scheduling another meeting, a discovery call, demo, or proposal. Or if the potential buyer asks when they will hear from you again. This is a buying sign demonstrating the prospect's interest in advancing the buying process. Repeating or confirming attractive benefits indicates what the prospect is most excited about or interested in. Questions that are a buying signal: Asking questions during a demo or presentation instead of waiting until the end is a sure sign the buyer is interested in learning more about your product or service and its ability to meet their needs. When the lead asks questions like “how quick can we get started” you know you're close to getting a contract signed. Questions about payment methods are a strong indicators the lead is close to making a buying decision. The lead being proactive about the price means your deals are on track. Prospects picturing themselves using your product or service is a strong buying signal. This is seen when potential customers ask questions in terms of ‘When I use the product, will…?' or ‘How quickly will I see an improvement?' or ‘Will I see X that quickly too?' Asking about delivery, installation, or on-boarding procedures and timing are strong buying signals since the prospect is wondering how soon they can benefit from your solution. Requesting general pricing information is a buying signal that shows a prospect is interested. Requests that are buying signals: Wants to know more about your company. A request from the prospect indicates they like your solution and are trying to determine your company's longevity or its financial stability. Requesting case studies or research reports by a prospect in a complex sale shows how interested they are in your product or service Asking to speak with existing customers demonstrates that the prospective customer has a strong interest in moving forward Asking to try the product before they buy is a strong buying signal. Prospects who are interested in taking the time to try a product during a free trial are seriously considering buying. If you offer a free trial, be sure to check in with the prospect at previously agreed-upon intervals to ensure everything is going smoothly. Requesting a quote is a buying signal, but it's essential to present the pricing to the prospect, so you have the opportunity to get feedback from the potential customer. And, in this case, you want to be sure you are presenting to the decision-maker. Otherwise, you may never find out where you stand in comparison to competitors. Examples of negative buying signals or signs when a potential buyer is not interested in buying from you: Unresponsive or reluctant to schedule time to learn more. When a prospect won't respond to your social media, email or phone messages, or they are hesitant to schedule another call after initially speaking with you, is a clear sign the buyer isn't interested. Indicating they are still looking into other options may mean the prospect isn't interested. Or, at the very least, it means ‘not now.' Reluctance to talk about their needs, challenges or goals is a sign the prospect isn't presently interested in learning more about your solution. Unwilling to share their budget may be a sign that there isn't a need currently, the prospect isn't interested, or there isn't sufficient funding available to make a deal happen. Hesitant to identify or introduce the decision-making is a negative indicator since initial contacts are often not making the final buying decision. If you can't find out who is making the final decision at the prospect's company, you are wasting your time. Telling you, they are not interested is a sure sign that this prospect will not become a customer… at least not now. How to get better at spotting buying signals An excellent way to develop your ability to recognize buying signals is to record your phone and video calls. Then review each call to see which buying signals were displayed by the prospect. Next, identify the ones you didn't recognize in real-time during the live call, so you don't miss them next time around. Doing this consistently will help you hear and see buying signs more quickly until it becomes automatic. Conclusion Even the most skilled reps don't close every prospect. It doesn't matter how well your sales and marketing team have done, the buyers purchasing intent is down to you to understand. But the better you get at recognizing buying signals, the more time you'll end up spending with highly qualified prospects. This increases the percentage of prospects that you close. And it prevents you from wasting valuable selling time with leads who aren't a good fit for your product or service. This makes it easier to hit or exceed your quota targets and increases your number of sales. So, learn to identify buying signals, revisit all your calls to figure out which signs you missed, and you'll soon become proficient at knowing when to progress the sale to a close.

In this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Andy Whyte dissects each step in the MEDDIC process and explains how B2B sales professionals can leverage the framework to both progress and close more sales. Andy is the author of MEDDIC: The Ultimate Guide and an expert on using MEDDIC in the complex sale You'll learn: Sponsored by: Free SalesCode assessment Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind. Take the free assessment Featured on this episode: Host - Will Barron Founder of Salesman.org Guest - Andy Whyte Author: MEDDIC: The Ultimate Guide Resources: Book: MEDDICC: The ultimate guide to staying one step ahead in the complex sale Andy on LinkedIn MEDDICC.com Book: The Challenger Customer: Selling to the Hidden Influencer Who Can Multiply Your Results Book: The Challenger Sale: Taking Control of the Customer Conversation Transcript Will Barron: Coming up on today's episode of the Salesman Podcast.   Andy Whyte: I think the thing is this, a lot of… MEDDICC is probably the most widely used methodology or framework or whatever you want to call it, in enterprise sales. What you find is that everyone has a different word for it. As a salesperson, you really only have one thing, one asset that really is going to dictate how successful you are and that's time.   Andy Whyte: The paper process is the one that will have the biggest impact on whether your deal will close on time when you think it will. Because once you're a vendor of choice, once you're past selling and you're into closing, it's the paper process that takes the time and…   Will Barron: Hello, Sales nation. My name is Will Barron and I'm the host of the Salesman Podcast, the world's most downloaded B2B sales show. On today's episode, we have an absolute legend. We have Andy Whyte. He is the author of the book MEDDICC. You can find at meddicc.com, which is M-E-D-D-I-C-C.com.   Will Barron: On today's episode, unsurprisingly, we're talking about MEDDICC as a framework and how it can help you close more complex and enterprise-level sales. Everything we talk about in this episode is available in the show notes over at salesman.org. With that said, let's jump right into it. Andy, welcome to the Salesmen Podcast.   Andy Whyte: Thank you, Will. It's awesome to be here. As I've mentioned to you before, I'm a big fan. I've been watching the shows. Thank you for having me on.   Andy’s Definition of MEDDICC · [01:30]   Will Barron: I appreciate it. I'm excited to have you on. On this episode, we're going to get into MEDDICC. We're going to hopefully break down the analogy and go through each of these sections the best we can in the time that we have. But Andy, how do you describe MEDDICC? Would you say it's a sales methodology or do you have a better way or a different way of describing what it is?   Andy Whyte: Yeah, great question. I think the thing is this, a lot of… MEDDICC, is probably the most widely used methodology or framework or whatever you want to call it in enterprise sales. What you find is that everyone has a different word for it. I personally, don't really mind what you call it, whether you call it a framework or a methodology. The only caveat I have around that is that one of the beautiful things about MEDDICC is it works with any other sales methodology. It plays very, very nicely.   “At its core MEDDICC is, I would say, a qualification framework. It helps people to qualify, should I be in this deal? And if I should be, what should I be doing to ensure I'm going to win it?” – Andy Whyte · [02:28]    Andy Whyte: In fact, I think it enhances other methodology. Whether you use something like Sandler or Challenger Sale or any one of the many great methodologies that are out there, it kind of can work very well with MEDDICC. But at its core MEDDICC is, I would say, a qualification framework. It helps people to qualify should I be in this deal? And if I should be, what should I be doing to ensure I'm going to win it?   Why is The Sales Qualification Process So Important? · [02:47]   Will Barron: For someone who is perhaps less familiar with a complex sale or high value deal size sale, why is the qualification process so important? Just to set up the rest of our conversation here.   “As a salesperson, you really only have one thing, one asset that really, it's going to dictate how successful you are and that's time. If you are a salesperson who is running around chasing after every single opportunity you have without kind of putting yourself on the front foot by identifying what your chances are of winning, then you're going to spread yourself very, very thin.” – Andy Whyte · [02:53]    Andy Whyte: Yeah. Good. Good question. So as a salesperson, you really only have one thing, one asset that really, it's going to dictate how successful you are and that's time. If you are a salesperson who is running around chasing after every single opportunity you have without kind of putting yourself on the front foot by identifying what your chances are of winning, then you're going to spread yourself very, very thin.   “Not all good salespeople are good forecasters, but all good forecasters are good salespeople.” – Andy Whyte · [03:21]    Andy Whyte: I have this saying which is that not all good salespeople are good forecasters, but all good forecasters are good salespeople. If you're a sales leader and if you're talking about, as we all do, to aspire to the very best jobs in sales, what sales leaders of the best jobs out there are looking for is they're looking for somebody who can accurately forecast, who can say, “I've got this deal and I'm going to win it and it's going to close on this date.” So it can be forecasted out.   Andy Whyte: And if you are a salesperson that can do that, then you will always have the best job. You will always work for the best companies. But the key to being able to answer those questions and forecast accurately is being able to qualify your pipeline.   Will Barron: I love it. I love it. Just a personal anecdote from my side, 99% of the friction I've had with sales managers and sales leadership in the past when I was working in sales was the fact that I would always hit target, I'd always do pretty well, not the best, but I'd always do pretty well. But there was no forecasting.   Will Barron: It would always look like it would just flukally, I had to close one big deal a year that would crush it 80% or 20% of the target and get me beyond my 80% mark. It looks like it comes in flukally. It doesn't go in flukally. It came on the back of hard work but because I wasn't using a methodology or a system like MEDDICC as well as what I should have been to qualify, I just got managers on my back all the time and that made the last part of my final sales job, it a bit of a mess and a bit of a pain.   Andy Breaks Down the MEDDICC Framework · [05:02]   Will Barron: There's definitely value in this, not just in getting more deals done but from having a better relationship with your internal stakeholders as well. So without Andy, breakdown MEDDICC. Give us the high level of what the acronym stands for and then we can perhaps go through each step as best we can with the time that we have.   Andy Whyte: Of course, yeah. To do that, if I may, I'll just take us back in time a little bit to where MEDDICC was formed because it beautifully explains why MEDDICC exists. MEDDICC was created by a guy called Dick Dunkel in the '90s. I think it was 1995 in a company called PTC, Parametric Technology Corporation.   Andy Whyte: They were a big, big organisation, over 1,000 salespeople. They had this challenge where they started to plateau, they were starting to lose sales people. It was kind of that sort of growing pain at that size issue. The sales leader at the time, a guy called John McMahon, who is by the way, the pound for pound, the greatest sales leader of all time. This guy is the Maradona of sales leadership, the [inaudible 00:05:57] of sales leadership, he's the guy, greatest of all time.   Andy Whyte: He pulled the guy called Dick Dunkel, as I mentioned, out of the field, who was a great, great salesperson. He said, “Dick, we need more people like you basically. We need you to train the sales team to be like you.” And so he was doing that and if you can imagine, there's a thousand salespeople, that's lots of different teams and regions.   Andy Whyte: What Dick was doing was travelling around meeting the teams. He ran this exercise, which I think is brilliant, which he still runs today, by the way, where he asked three key questions. Number one, why do we win deals? Number two, why do we lose deals? And number three, why do deals slip? What he noticed by asking those questions to multiple different teams with those six elements that were the same everywhere he went, they were six common elements of the reasons why if they had these elements in strength, they would win. If they didn't have them and they were weak on them, they would lose or the deal would slip.   Andy Whyte: And of course, you can guess where I'm going with this. Those elements became MEDDICC and the astute of the audience amongst us that would have read the show notes or looked at the title or seen my book will see that there's two Cs in my MEDDICC. That totals to seven letters, not six letters and you're absolutely right. It initially started with MEDDICC with one C, there's now two Cs. There's sometimes even a P and other letters in it.   Andy Whyte: But I'll get into what it stands for now, if you like. The first letter is M and it stands for metrics. The high level version of this is I like to say, imagine yourself six months from now, sat down having a quarterly business review with your customer. You've won the deal, what would be the KPIs in which you're measuring the success of your solution with them? Those, whatever the answers to those are, it maybe improvements in conversion rate, it maybe efficiency improvements or anything depending on what the value is of what you sell, those are the metrics.   Andy Whyte: The idea is you want to find those as early as possible in the deal through good discovery and kind of make them the headlines of your deal. That's the metrics. Of course, we can get into more detail on all of these as we go, if it helps you.   Will Barron: Sure. Let's go each of them as quick as we can and then we'll dive into them. Because I don't think we have time to go into all of them. We'll perhaps pick on the ones that you feel most salespeople get wrong most often.   Andy Whyte: Beautiful. Let's do that. The second letter is E, and it stands for economic buyer. This is the person who has the overall authority in your deal. This person can say no when others say yes and yes will never say no. They can create budget out of thin air. These are generally senior people.   Andy Whyte: Then you've got the decision criteria. Now this one's really kind of easy, because it's kind of the clues in the name, it's the criteria in which the customer is going to base the decision. Very easy in a RFP, this one. It's like what are the things they're scoring you against? It can be more holistic things like partnerships and your roadmap or whether they like you even you as a company. And then the second D is decision process. This is really how are they going to make their decision? What's the process they're going to go in? What authorizations? What stakeholders? All that sort of stuff.   Andy Whyte: And as I mentioned before, there's sometimes a P which stands for paper process, which is really just the contract, the NDA right through to getting stuff signed. And then this is an interesting one, we should definitely dive more into. It's I. It initially stood for identify the pain. I actually say there's three Is: identify the pain, indicate the pain and then implicate the pain. So we can perhaps go back into that one a bit more detail.   Andy Whyte: And then you have the most important of all, the greatest CROs I've spoken to about MEDDICC will tell you this and that's champion. No champion, no deal. Big champion, big deal. And we can talk more about champions because I think it's probably the most used term to describe a customer, but it's also the most incorrectly used term.   Andy Whyte: And then the last C which I have on my book, which is commonly implemented as well stands for competition. Now, everyone listened to this goes, “Oh, you don't need to explain that one, Andy.” But actually, it's a commonly misunderstood one because most people think of the competition as your rival solution, the other company out there that you normally don't like them and they're worse than you, of course and they're selling the same thing as you are, maybe a bit different. Obviously not as good as what most salespeople would say.   “Competition in today's world where our customers have so much options and so much opportunity, is any one person or thing that is vying for the same budget or resources that you are.” – Andy White · [10:28]    Andy Whyte: Now, the catch here is actually the competition. In today's world, where our customers have so much options and so much opportunity is any one person or thing that is vying for the same budget or resources that you are. That could be both or it could be three things, it could be the rival solution, it could be the customer themselves looking at what you do and saying, “Well, we can build that ourselves.” Or it could be something that's does a similar thing to what you do but a completely different solution or platform or something like that that could still the people that are going to implement your solution or steal the budget for it. That's it. That's MEDDICC in probably three or four minutes.   Andy Describes the KPIs That Can Potentially Help in Identifying and Solving Customer Pain Points · [11:05]    Will Barron: Perfect. Well, let's start at the top here because I feel like metrics are something that often get forgotten. We as salespeople will often go into a room virtually now I guess, these days, sit down with people and go, “Hey, you have this problem, we have this solution. You've got some budget, we've got something to suck the budget away from you.” I find typically there's not a lot of discussion of what does success look like for you.   Will Barron: Do you care to solve this problem or not? Just because you've got this problem, oversells it. Or the place is on fire constantly. Everything is falling apart behind the scenes. But I don't care to solve all the issues because they don't drive revenue, for example. So with that said, what would be an example of a KPI of success if we're selling to the enterprise or we're trying to do a large deal here. What kind of KPIs would we be trying to pull out from the potential buyer?   Andy Whyte: Sure. Well, I predominantly have worked in marketing technology, which is a good place to use as an example, because unlike so many other technologies out there, we are all consumers. We're generally always being marketed to, so we can kind of relate to these things. And I like to… In fact, the sales MEDDICC group who are a consultancy that implement MEDDICC, they break metrics into two: metrics ones and metric twos.   “What happens so much for salespeople today, is they spot an opportunity, whether it's inbound or outbound and they know they can help a company and at the first chance they get, before they've even joined the Zoom call, they're straight away telling the customer about how ugly their baby is.” – Andy White · [12:31]    Andy Whyte: This is really, really key. Because what happens so much for salespeople today, is they spot an opportunity, whether it's inbound or outbound and they know they can help a company and at the first chance they get, their laptop lid, before it's even up, before they've even joined the Zoom, they're straightaway telling the customer about how ugly their baby is. They come on and they go, “Will, my solution, you… When you email me, you don't personalise it or whatever the value is and it's horrible and look at your competitor. They're so much better than you. You suck basically.”   Andy Whyte: And the customer's going, “Thanks a lot. I don't really… Do I really want to introduce you to my boss, because you just told me I suck and now my boss will think I suck as well.” But that's the common mistake we do. And we even do it in outreach, we show like bad examples.   Andy Whyte: What the difference between metrics ones and metric twos are as metrics ones are where you research the customer ahead of your meeting and you think about your existing customers and the value you provide to them and you think about, “Well, which of my existing customers have relevant value to the customer I'm about to go and see?” And so when I sit in front of you as a person in a marketing department, for example, I can say, “Hey, I work for X company. Here is the value that I provide to my customers. Here's an example of a customer that before working with me had these problems.   Andy Whyte: And now since working with me and my solution, they've not got these problems. Look how great it looks. By the way, these are the metrics, these are the things that they're getting, the areas of value. Their conversion rate has gone up or their checkout-dropout has fallen off,” or whatever those metrics therefore become.   Andy Whyte: What that will do is build trust, which is very hard to do in today's world in COVID times. It will help build trust and value and the customer is more likely to open up to what you want them to be able to do, so you can do good discovery and find the metrics twos, which is the metrics that are specific to their needs.   Andy Whyte: Now, they could be exactly the same as the metric ones if they were a close enough company, but the idea is you almost have to use the metric ones to unlock the metrics twos and then you can really, really personalise what value you're going to bring.   The Crucial Customer Metrics Salespeople Need to Monitor When Identifying Buyer Goals and Areas of Improvement · [14:51]   Will Barron: Is the end goal here Andy to get a one singular holy grail metric that the company is working for? Or can it be just as effective to say, “We can potentially fix/solve, improve one, two, three, four, five different things.” Is one way better or should we focus on one or go for multiple?   Andy Whyte: It's a great question. There isn't a single answer to that. And so it really is going to come down to the opportunity itself. I'll give an example of that based on something that I think everyone will know. I used to work for the leading social media software provider. In that example, I could be talking to, let's say, Unilever, a gigantic company. They could be spending an absolute fortune on Facebook advertising for Lynx Aftershave or something like that. So my metrics to them might be, “Well, I can help you identify more people that are likely to buy Lynx by using our data platform and our services.”   Andy Whyte: That's a metric, that's going to not only increase their goal of getting more people to engage with Lynx, but it's going to save them money. So there's one metric, increased revenue on the end, metric number two, it's going to decrease their ad spend, it's going to give them more bang for their buck, basically.   “Metrics depend on who you're talking to, who you're selling to and what their needs are.” – Andy White · [16:26]    Andy Whyte: But then over here, you could have another metric completely separate, which is to say, “Hey, what happens if an intern goes rogue on your Facebook page and just starts causing havoc?” Well, that would be an entirely different metric from these sort of revenue metrics. Then all of a sudden, it's like a brand risk and it could affect the share price. It depends on who you're talking to, who you're selling to and what their needs are. It could just be one, but it could be many.   How to Identify and Engage with The economic buyer · [16:40]    Will Barron: Okay, perfect. You've transitioned perfectly to the second part here of MEDDICC, the economic buyer. Does the economic buyer when we're talking about people, does the economic buyer have to be our champion? Can we just know, identify who the economic buyer is and be cordial and polite to them or do we actually need to engage with them and kind of build a relationship with them directly?   “According to data from iSEEit, 80% of deals that were won had engagements with the economic buyer. 80% of deals that were lost or slipped didn't have engagement with the economic buyer.” – Andy Whyte · [17:12]    Andy Whyte: I have a really good answer for this one and it's data backed, which I'm sure you will like. There's a SaaS company called [inaudible 00:17:11] and they provide MEDDICC software. It helps implement MEDDICC into Salesforce. They were able to analyse the data of won deals and lost deals. Here's the stat. 80% of deals that were won had engagements with the… Sorry, it's over 80%. I can't remember the exact figures but had engagement with the economic buyer.   “If you want to be successful, consistently successful, you absolutely have to be engaged with the economic buyer. I would be as bold as saying that if you aren't engaged with the economic buyer, then you are order taking, not selling.” – Andy Whyte · [17:42]    Andy Whyte: 80% of deals that were lost or slipped didn't have engagement with the economic buyer. That's the data backed to answer your question. The economic buyer is not the same person as a champion. It's someone more senior than the champion. You absolutely, if you want to be successful, consistently successful, you absolutely have to be engaged with the economic buyer. I would be as bold as saying that if you aren't engaged with the economic buyer, then you are order taking, not selling.   Will Barron: Sure. Let me give a anecdote here without giving too much away. Let's say salesman.org is looking at partnering with a big CRM company right now and there's discussions ongoing in the background. When the show goes out, it'll all be signed, sealed, and delivered hopefully. So let's say that this is the case. Hopefully, this is being addressed to the audience and make it real for them as well.   How Salespeople Can Engage The Economic Buyer and Close More Deals By Adding Value to The Conversation · [18:55]   Will Barron: So I have daily conversations with a champion within the organisation. I could probably ring the economic buyer, the CMO of the entire organisation and he'll probably answer my call and have a chat with me. But there's not much value I don't think I could give him that otherwise couldn't be just passed through their own internal chain of command.   Will Barron: How do I engage with that CMO without pestering them, without communicating with them unnecessary information that they can just get from their own team? What value can I add to that individual to increase the level of engagement so that I can spend with them?   Andy Whyte: Yeah, great question. You're a bit of a unique case to the answer to this. If I may, I will broaden out the answer because I don't think too many managing directors of the company would be in this sort of situation where they're doing a sponsorship deal. Let's imagine that you the… You're a middle manager or something like that or not middle manager, you're middle ranking in this.   Andy Whyte: Now, what you most likely have and what most people listen to this podcast will have whether they are individual contributors, sales leaders, is they'll have a boss or maybe a few bosses above them. This is multi-level selling 101. It's not necessarily your job, Will, as the salesperson to contact the economic buyer. It's your boss's job. And they should do that early on. Now this is a really, really, really good tip and this is not one of my tips.   “The idea should be that you should, before you've even had the first meeting with a potential customer, you should get your boss to write to the person's boss that you're going to meet.” – Andy Whyte · [20:02]    Andy Whyte: The idea should be that you should, before you've even had the first meeting with a potential customer, you should get your boss to write to the person's boss that you're going to meet. There is no ask here. It's very straightforward. You simply just write to them and say, “Hi, Sara. I'm Andy. It sounds like our teams are meeting next week to talk about these things. I'm really, really excited by it. We're really excited to talk to you because we've helped companies just like you do A, B and C areas of value. I didn't have any ask at the moment, but I just wanted to open this line of communication to you just in case you had anything you want to talk to me about.”   Andy Whyte: Now, chances are you will get a reply if you've teed it up. But that's it. If you set the bar, then you can constantly re-engage those things, add value, ask questions and that sort of thing. Yeah, but it's a good question. A lot of people… If it was easy to contact the economic buyer, everyone would do it and that's why it's such a awesome thing to have as a focus because the more you do it, the better you're going to be.   Will Barron: Sure. That makes total sense. It's almost a level of professionalism and the fact that we're taking this deal so seriously that we're willing to have our higher ups are not ours. And then myself included, those [inaudible 00:21:17] sales people, pestering people higher up the food chain. So that makes total sense and especially if we're dealing with the enterprise.   Will Barron: I think that… I'm hesitant to use this word, but I feel like that's the appropriate thing to do, isn't it?   Andy Whyte: Yes. Yes, it is absolutely right.   The Difference Between the Decision Criteria and the Decision Process in MEDDICC · [21:33]    Will Barron: Cool. Okay. Well, let's move on to decision criteria again. Tell me your thoughts on how separate the decision criteria is versus the decision process. Are these… I know in the acronym MEDDICC, they're separate elements but should these be… Are they related or should they be kept in separate silos?   Andy Whyte: Yeah, people quite often try and push them together and I think that's… Those would be people that haven't had a great implementation of MEDDICC because they are very, very different, even though they're both kind of got the same D in them. The reason why it's the decision process itself is really about how are they going to make their decision? What is the process? Who are the people involved? And so that's over there and then the decision criteria is what are they going to make their decision based upon?   “What the best salespeople do is they uncover the decision criteria. Now, you know as well as I do, quite often buyers, they won't have a decision criteria. They know they want something, so it's your job because then you can become the trusted advisor and you can craft the decision criteria for the customer.” – Andy Whyte · [22:30]    Andy Whyte: Now, this is a really good one to dig into, because it's the one that can really be a game changer for salespeople. What the best salespeople do is they will uncover the decision criteria. Now, you know as well as I do, quite often buyers, they won't have a decision criteria. They know they want something [inaudible 00:22:41], they won't have it. So it's your job. And that's actually a good thing, by the way, because then you can become the trusted advisor and you can craft the decision criteria for the customer.   Andy Whyte: So you can do some discovery and find out what they need. And of course, the elite salespeople will be including their own unique capabilities as decision criteria. They'll have a meeting, they'll do some great discovery, they'll get what they think is the decision criteria and then they'll follow up after the meeting and say, “Have I heard this, right? It sounds like this is your decision criteria.” You can even be as bold as calling it that and put all the things you think that they're making a decision on and then include…   Andy Whyte: And also, it sounded like whatever solution you're going to go for, it absolutely must have these things which will be your decision criteria, which is bad news for your competition, especially if they don't have those features, functionality or they're weaker in that area. You can really set yourself up for success. This is something I noticed from watching a few of your former guests that when we talk about procurement, everyone's sort of, “Oh no, procurement.” And they shudder and they think that's a terrible thing.   Andy Whyte: Now, I feel like if we were to talk to procurement people and tell them that we do that and the reasons why, there'll be very offended because most procurement professionals I know, they would be offended because they'll say, “No, no, we are just trying to find the best value for our company. We're not just trying to get the best price. We're trying to find the best value.”   Andy Whyte: Now, if you imagine that scene, when you go into what is effectively a negotiation for a procurement. We never just go in there to have a cup of tea with them. They're always going to do something. And you go in and they do that classic, “Will, I'm looking at your training package here. You're twice the price of the other quote we've had.”   Andy Whyte: Now, most sellers at that point, they'll get into sort of, “But mine's got the videos in it,” or this or that. But if you've really nailed the decision criteria, then you'll be able to say, “Cool, okay.” What you're saying is if you've not got the budget for this or you've got to isolate the objection, they'd be, “No, you just seem expensive.” And you say, “Okay. Well, we could make it cheaper. If you're looking for cheaper, we could take these things out but it sounded like you needed those things.” And those are obviously the things you've put in the decision criteria that are unique to your solution.   Andy Whyte: And then all of a sudden, all of a sudden the dynamic changes because the procurement person can clearly see based on the criteria of what they need, only you can provide it and you've actually obviously set that up and it's just a really smart way. That obviously works not just with procurement, but with anyone you're having a conversation with around the decision criteria.   Will Barron: I've shared this anecdote on the show before. I won't share it in full. But we used to do this selling medical devices here in the wonderful UK to the NHS. There's only really two endoscopic camera systems… Probably in the market, there was only two that surgeons want to use. I worked for both companies and so I'd just do the opposite both times.   Will Barron: Basically, HD cameras had just come in to the marketplace. One company used interlaced footage, which really made very little difference. But in fast movement when the camera's inside the patient, perhaps it looks smoother and better. And then the other brand used non-interlaced footage, which on a static camera perhaps looked better. Not really much difference between the two in all honesty when you're inside a patient and you're performing your procedure, the last thing you really care about is how the lines are drawn on the screen at 60 frames per second.   Will Barron: Well, we used to use this as… Well, I used to use this as leverage with procurement. I'd asked them, “What are you looking for? This, this and this?” A lot of the times, they didn't know what they were looking for. I would always spend the extra hour of procurement, I'd always spend that extra bit of time trying to almost provide a bit of a service to help them make a good decision.   Will Barron: Sometimes it was us, sometimes it wasn't us. But whenever we got to an RFP or request for proposal stage of the buying process, which we'll come on to in a second, the decision process, it always included whatever company I worked for the appropriate must have interlaced footage or must not have interlaced footage, immediately locking out the competition and 99 times out of 100, we'd win those deals.   How Salespeople Can Influence The Procurement Officer’s Decision Criteria · [27:06]   Will Barron: I feel like we're only touching the surface of each of these steps here, Andy, but there's a lot of strategy that can come on the back of this that can… A little bit of work up front can really pay dividends towards the end of the sales process, can it?   “I always liken sales to sports because it's a performance activity.” – Andy Whyte · [27:21]    Andy Whyte: Yeah, you're absolutely right. And that's the most beautiful… I always liken sales to sports because it's a performance activity. There was things that… Imagine that 30 yard out free kick that Ronaldo takes and he calls into the top right hand corner. What you've talked about there is the sales equivalent of that.   “When you are able to influence the decision criteria of an RFP, that's elite selling.” – Andy Whyte · [27:35]    Andy Whyte: When you are able to influence the criteria of an RFP, the decision criteria of an RFP, that's elite selling that is. Everyone can do it. But if you just need to lean in and make sure you kind of really focus on building that decision criteria.   Will Barron: Yeah. This is a stupid way of describing it. I can't think of off the top my head a better way of describing it. I think it's just big boy selling. It's selling in the big leagues. It's what you do, adding strategy to a longer term enterprise sale or didn't have to be enterprise sale. But when you have a methodology and a strategy and you stick to it and you refine it and you learn an A/B test from your customers, what works, what doesn't work.   Customer Relationships Versus Selling Strategies · [28:20]    Will Barron: In my mind, that's the difference between a sales professional and then you have other salespeople who are trying to blag it and use quick wit and banter and even trying to leverage relationships more than strategy. I feel like nine times out of 10 again, I'm not the greatest salesperson, I'm pretty good, but I will wipe the floor was someone who comes in thinking that they can blag it with just a few levels of strategy every single time.   Andy Whyte: Yeah, yeah. I used to play football as an amateur. In the changing room, we used to have this quote above the wall that said, “Hard work always beat talent when talent doesn't work hard.” That said, with something like MEDDICC, if you embrace it, it's a blueprint for success. It really is.   Why Is It Important That Salespeople Know How The Buyer Makes Purchasing Decisions? · [29:11]    Will Barron: For sure. Okay, so we've touched on decision criteria. Let's touch on decision process now. We've kind of alluded to it slightly in that last point. But why is it important that we… It's a stupid question to ask but why is it important that we know how the buyer makes purchasing decisions? Sorry, or the process of of choosing, I guess.   Andy Whyte: Yeah, sure. Well, it's that classic thing of we've all been in those deals where we thought that we're doing great and all of a sudden, [inaudible 00:29:35]. “Well hang, what happened there?” And it's those seven other stakeholders that we never knew were involved in the process. That's not because we…   Andy Whyte: That's not because they're weird, it's just that companies… We always think as salespeople, we get up in the morning and all we do is sell and depending on how complex the sales we have, we could even have a one deal a quarter we're working on. And so that's what we think about, but the companies we're selling to, we're just not even probably 5% of their day. And so there's always going to be stakeholders and they're going to rely on other people that maybe are close to the process.   “If you don't understand your decision process and your paper process, you have no chance of forecasting accurately.” – Andy Whyte · [30:33]   Andy Whyte: And so you need to know who those people are, you need to know how they're evaluating who those people are. There's almost two stages. There's the validation side of the decision process, where they're kind of figuring out what they need and who to trust for it. And then there's like the authorization side of things where it's about now we're into procurement process, legal side of things and all. Going back to what I said at the top about forecasting, if you don't understand your decision process and your paper process, you have no chance of forecasting accurately. You really, really don't. Yeah, that's why it's so important.   Why It’s Not Inappropriate to Ask Your Clients Their Buyer’s Decision Process · [30:50]   Will Barron: Just to double down on this for a second, it's more than appropriate, especially with procurement, to ask what your decision process is, right? It's not an unreasonable question to ask, especially in a larger deal size.   Andy Whyte: Correct. I tell you, I had an anecdote this week from a gentleman called [inaudible 00:31:06] in Germany, he's a top MEDDICC consultant there. He told me that the head of procurement at Siemens who are obviously a gazillion dollar company told him that he prefers to buy from companies that use MEDDICC because they go to him and his team and they're looking for the right things. They're professional and they're trying to run an efficient process from both sides. Yeah. Absolutely right.   Will Barron: Perfect. Okay. Paper process, an extra P. MEDDPICC with a…   Andy Whyte: MEDDPICC, yeah.   Will Barron: Is that what it gets [inaudible 00:31:41].   Andy Whyte: Yeah, yeah. And it's so funny people get so so precious over whether it's MEDDICC, one C, two Cs, Ps and that sort of stuff. I'm just like look into them all and find the one that works best for you. Because they all have their pros and cons.   Will Barron: Sure.   Andy Whyte: But yeah, MEDDPICC is similar to the decision process. But it's that… All the things that can happen, especially today with the cloud, as in the world I sold the technology sales, you've got data privacy, user privacy, you've got infrastructure security, you've got lawyers, you've got a gazillion different contracts and everything.   Andy Whyte: That's what it comes down to. It's not just that. It's like who's signing it? Who has to approve it before it's signed? What if someone goes on holiday? And so it's really just keeping on top of those things. What can go wrong here and how am I going to mediate that if it happens? It's a really straightforward one, but it's a really important one.   Will Barron: Crazy important. Doubling down on this analogy here of me selling medical devices, but if we ever wanted… Surgeons would always want the camera systems to be able to put data on the hospital network so that they open a computer in a different room and they get all the files and the images and the videos from the procedure in there all nicely and all wrapped up in a bow.   Will Barron: Very rare were we able to actually integrate that because as soon as we get anywhere near one of these cameras stats with an ethernet cable, IT come running in the room, bashing heads and waving keyboards to attack people because they know that as soon as it gets plugged in, they've got a responsibility to maintain it, to maintain the licences and there's obviously additional costs and paperwork that go along with that.   Andy Describes How Salespeople Can Avoid Some Existing Pain Points To Avoid Making the Deal Complex and Help Close the Deals Faster · [33:14]   Will Barron: So this point for us, it was almost our job to avoid existing and this sounds counterintuitive, but to almost do as limited integration as what we possibly could, that the end user was happy so that we didn't have to involve other people, because then the deal would never get done because it would become too complex. So it can work both ways. Can it, right?   “The paper process is the one that has the biggest impact on whether your deal will close on time when you think it will.” – Andy Whyte · [33:36]    Andy Whyte: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah, the paper process is the one that have the biggest impact on whether your deal will close on time when you think it will. Because once you really… Once your vendor of choice and once your past selling and your into closing, it's the paper process that takes the time and whether it's understanding if the company you're selling to has internal or external legal counsel, I straightaway… If I'm looking at a deal in my team and someone's forecasting a deal within a month and we haven't got legals, then we find out they've got an external legal team, forget it. You're going to see more reding on that contract than anything at all. It'll look like your background.   Implicating Versus Identifying Customer Pain Points · [34:35]   Will Barron: Okay. Well, so from then on, and let's rattle through these last three. I'm going to put you on the spot. I'd love to have you back on to perhaps get into one or two of these in detail in a future episode. Let's rattle through the last three of these now. Just because of time constraints. Or implicating pain. You mentioned that there's potentially three Is that we could stick on this one.   “Identifying the pain is what you can almost not fail to do if you're a salesperson today. You talk to a customer and you find some pain.” – Andy Whyte · [34:45]   Andy Whyte: Yes. I'll give you the really short version. Identifying the pain is what you can almost not fail to do if you're a salesperson today. You talk to a customer and you find some pain and what the average sales person will do will accelerate into their sales point, their PowerPoint presentations, “Hey, I found some pain. Let me tell you how I solve it.” That's not great. That's pretty poor selling.   Andy Whyte: The next level up, which is what the majority in certainly in my world events price sales do, which is they indicate the pain. They find some pain, they go, “Okay, how much of that is a pain and how much is it costing you?”   Andy Whyte: And then they'll indicate back to the customer by a business case or an ROI or something like that. “It's costing you 2 million a year,” and the customer feels, “Well, that's a little bit more painful than seeing your slide deck. But it's okay, I'll take that into account.”   “Now, implicating the pain is the one that really elite sellers do. Where it's like, I've found some pain, I've quantified it, but now I'm going to really make you feel it.” – Andy Whyte · [35:38]    Andy Whyte: Now, implicating the pain is the one that really elite sellers do. Where it's like, I've found some pain, I've quantified it, but now I'm going to really make you feel it. So via a really smart discovery where I'm asking you what the implications of the pain, how much is it costing you and just digging deeper, SPIN Selling basically.   Andy Whyte: Digging deeper and deeper and deeper to the point where it sort of starts as, “That's not great.” But at the end of the discovery session, I've dug in so deep to it, you're just like, “Will, can we just forget about this and just get the contracts done already because I really need to solve this?” It's not easy to do. It takes a lot of skill and discovery. But the sellers that can do it will always overachieve on that quote, because they're the ones that are really bring the pain up and they'll sell more higher value deals because of it.   How to Strategically Implicate a Customer’s Pain Points · [36:19]   Will Barron: Sure. Again, just continue this analogy for me. Tell me if I'm right or wrong here. But a lot of this would be, well, we want these cameras, because we will be able to do the procedures quicker. So then I would start to lay on top, well, you're using a standard definition screen camera system right now, a high definition camera system. Maybe you're going to have better patient outcomes and it's difficult to quantify. So now I bring a surgeon in that will… “Are you going to perform better?” Because the surgeons want the latest toys.   Will Barron: So they'll agree with whatever what kind of pitch it to a CFO in the NHS. We're bringing them in, “Hey, do you think you'll be able to perform a safer procedure and reduce the chances of the NHS get sued? Any kind of patient problems on the back of this?” And of course, they say yes. And they go on board. And there'll be two or three other things that we would layer on top of that. Would that be on the right tracks of this I here?   Andy Whyte: That's it. It's exactly it. Yeah. And it's that thing around with the example there, it's like the implicating the pain would be really digging into, in the case of the surgeon, I'll be digging into the feelings they have of what if something… How many bad issues going wrong will this solve and how many, like you said better outcome for patients. I'm not knowledgeable enough about the space to know what they were treating, what they're solving. But if I did, I'd be like scratching on that little wound a little bit, so to speak, to try and really open it up so that it…   Andy Whyte: [inaudible 00:37:46] Yeah, actually, this is a really big problem. And I need to solve this immediately, if not sooner. That's kind of the trick.   Will Barron: Because we tie into the… And this sounds manipulative post mortem. But during the conversation, it's not manipulative. You're asking questions and they're giving you answers that they feel are appropriate. I wouldn't feel like maybe you could do this in a manipulative way if you chose to. But I would only be asking, I'd be asking relatively open-ended questions so they could choose not to give me the response I was looking for.   Will Barron: But you get to the point where you'd be talking about their careers and how many legal actions can you have against you before the general medical council in the UK go, “Hey, there's a problem here.” A lot of that can be tied to very literally just being able to see better on a screen. Maybe I'm in a good position here or I was in a good position, because that's an obvious wave of add an implication and maybe a software product would be more difficult to add this. Maybe that's a conversation for another time. Next, go on to champion.   Andy Whyte: Champion.   Who is a Sales Champion? · [38:45]    Will Barron: Do we have a champion? Do we have multiple champions? Are the different levels of champion? Do we need a champion and do we need to identify the person who's going to kibosh the whole thing and the enemy? How does this framework work in regards to all that?   Andy Whyte: Yeah, great, great way of phrasing it. You can have more than one champion for sure. But the most important thing with a champion is that it's a qualified champion. In MEDDICC, there's three qualifying criteria. And these are really, really important. It's okay if you haven't qualified this, it doesn't mean you need to rule out talking to this person but before calling them a champion, you have to have these things, three things.   Andy Whyte: Number one, power and influence. Okay, it's not rank. It's just when they speak, when they say something, do people listen. The second is they have to have a mutual win with you. They want to… There has to be something in it for them, your success needs to equal their success. The third is they have to be selling on your behalf. You can't be there all the time. There's going to be lots of conversations when you're not there and they need to be selling in your behalf. And what that means is when somebody says, “Well, I think we can build this ourselves,” or, “I like the competition or whatever it is,” they stand up and step up for you.   Andy Whyte: Obviously, these three qualifying criteria, some are easier than others. You can see power and influence in a meeting, see if their people listen to them. You can kind of talk to them about your mutual win. The one around selling for you, the real easy hack here to understand if they talk to you to say, “Hey Jess, surely you've been talking about this project internally?” “Oh, yes, yes, we have.” “Has there been anyone that's not been in favour of our solution?” “Oh, yeah. There's Steve. He didn't like it.” “What did Steve say?” “Oh, well. Steve told me this.”   Andy Whyte: So first one, tick. Jess has told you what Steve said. That's a good sign. The real ultimate test is, “And what did you say to Steve?” She says, “Well, I told Steve and I made sure everyone else knew that Steve was wrong as well.” That's the champion. That's the first part. You've got your champion. And you can have more of those than you want. But it's really important you have a proper champion, rather than thinking just everyone likes me. “Everyone likes me.” That's no good.   Andy Whyte: The next one is the competition's champion, your counter champion, if you like. Now, it really comes down to who has the stronger champion, right. And if you find out that your competition has a stronger champion, you've got two choices, you either build up your champion to be stronger, you've got to train them, you've got to support the order, give them the talk track or you've got to find another champion because whoever has the strongest champion will win. It's basically the law.   How To Identify and Nature Your Sales Champion · [41:36]   Will Barron: I feel like I could ask you 15 questions here. I guess the most important thing here to understand for the audience, I don't know if there's data on this, I'm asking you anecdotally, do these champions come about because they like the salesperson or the people in the organisation personally?   Will Barron: Is this all based on relationships or is this typically because the champion knows that your product or service is the correct thing and they're excited to get it implemented?   “The best champions actually often don't have to like you.” – Andy Whyte · [41:53]    Andy Whyte: Yeah, brilliant question. Absolutely astounding. Because this is the thing. The best champions actually often don't have to like you. In fact, they can be a bit of a pain in your ass. They can. And so, yeah, that's the thing. The Challenger Sale is the book that gets talked about all the time and rightly, it's a good book. But the followup book, The Challenger Customer, for me, is a better book. And in that book, it talks about the difference…   “The different types of buyers. And actually, the one that's your friend is actually not as good as the person that the persona that is actually just wants the best for their company.” – Andy Whyte · [42:39]    Andy Whyte: And I think one of the reasons why it doesn't get as much hype, by the way is because people think it's for customer success people or something, it's about customers, but it's actually talking about the person you're selling to. And it's saying that where there's challenge of salespeople, there's also challenge of buyers. It should be called The Challenger Buyer. They should bring me up. They can have that one for free. But that's it. What they talk about is the different types of buyer. And actually, the one that's like, your friend is actually not as good as the person that the persona that is actually just wants the best for their company.   Andy Whyte: They don't care if it's you, they don't care if your logo is blue or red or what you do, they just want to get the best and that's that. Yeah, you almost actually just want… I'd rather have that champion because they definitely have more power and influence because people are like, “Well, it's really hard to impress that person.” So if you've impressed that person, it's worth more than the person that seems like everybody.   Which One is More Important: Customer Relationships or Understanding the Buyer and Delivering Value? · [43:15]    Will Barron: Yeah. We'll come on to a competition in a second but just to drill this home. How important are relationships versus how important is it to understand the buyer and just deliver value to them as a whole, across the whole like in the MEDDICC methodology?   “As a salesperson, you don't necessarily have to be liked. In fact, sometimes it can be a bit of a hindrance.” – Andy Whyte · [43:55]    Andy Whyte: Yeah. Well, here's a probably an unpopular opinion. Everywhere I've worked, there's always been a successful sales person who I thought, I won't say what I thought, but you just think, “I don't like that person. They don't seem to…” I know it's not me. I know they're like that with their customers, but they're still wildly successful. That, to me, proves that you don't necessarily have to be liked. In fact, sometimes it can be a bit of a hindrance. If you just want people to like you… Earlier in my career, that was me. I was scared of asking the difficult questions and all that sort of stuff. So that the more outcome driven sellers, I think are the better ones. I have a really nice analogy for how I think salespeople should be. We should never be apologetic, we shouldn't be, “Thank you so much for your time.” You, yourself as a great example of this, you were selling technology that literally helped save people's lives.   “They should be calling you up and clearing their calendar to talk to you. If you don't feel like that about the product you're selling, then you're probably in the wrong job.” – Andy Whyte · [44:27]    Andy Whyte: They should be calling you up and clearing their calendar to talk to you. If you don't feel like that about the product you're selling, then you're probably in the wrong job. And so this is the analogy, this is the mindset. There's a film called Limitless, I don't know if you've seen it. It's got Bradley Cooper. It's one of my favourite films. But for those that haven't seen, it's basically about a pill that says we use 6% of our brain. The pill unlocks 100% of our brain power. So you can learn a language in like an hour or something like that, learn Kung Fu in an hour.   Andy Whyte: If you were a salesperson of an FDA approved pill that did that, how would you be as a salesperson? You would be so confident. You wouldn't let anyone waste your time. If we take that mindset into sales, that's how we should be. There's two things that will happen. People won't waste your time, but also people are like one, “This guy seems very busy. I better make the most of his time before he goes on to the next person.” And that's kind of the mindset, I think we should have.   Will Barron: For sure. That film, the NZT or B or whatever it's called-   Andy Whyte: NZT.   Will Barron: Is based on a drug called modafinil.   Andy Whyte: Let me write that down.   Will Barron: We're going off topic here. It's a narcoleptic drug, but people do use it as a smart drug. I've experimented with it in the past and it's not your… You barely notice it. What it does for me though, what it does in general, is why people use it as a smart drug, it removes that little bit of voice at the back your head when you go. “God, I was doing my accounting today. I've got to do this VAT return.” That little bit of voice doesn't exist, and you literally just sit down and do the work.   Will Barron: So it doesn't turn you into an incredible author and a superstar kind of ladies man like it does in that film. I just thought it would be funny to mention, there are literally people selling that drug right now who are probably going… They're probably on the drug as well. They're probably going, “Yeah, I appreciate what you're saying here, Andy.”   Andy Whyte: I didn't know that. I didn't know that.   Competitors In and Out of an Organisation You’re Trying To Sell To · [46:22]    Will Barron: Well, there we go. Final thing here, competition. So you touched on at the top of the show, the fact that this isn't just our direct competitors, it's anyone who can take a budget. Is there anything else that we need to add to that to make that clear in the audience's minds?   “By the way, if a salesperson ever says, “There's no competition here,” they're either lying or they're not close enough to the deal.” – Andy Whyte · [46:54]    Andy Whyte: No, I think that's it. It's anyone that can take not just the budget, but the resource as well. If your solution requires expertise or people to help implement it, then that can be a thing as well. That's a really, really important one. Because people just go… By the way, if a salesperson ever says, “There's no competition here,” they're either lying or they're not close enough to the deal.   Will Barron: For sure. Okay. So just to wrap up then, I've got one final question that I ask everyone that comes on the how.   Andy Whyte: Okay.   Andy Reveals the Steps Most People Get Wrong in the MEDDICC Methodology · [46:05]   Will Barron: Well, before that, out of these one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight steps, if we include some of the extra ones, what do people get wrong the most? What's the biggest hurdle for salespeople? What if you could wave a magic wand and fix one of them would solve kind of 60-80% of your clients' issues?   “Stop calling coaches, stop calling the person that talks to you the most your champion. Test them, test them and test them. That's the one. When you have a champion, you know very, very quickly how you're going to win and if you're going to win.” – Andy Whyte · [47:34]    Andy Whyte: Yeah, the one that people get wrong the most is their definition of metrics. But the one that will have the biggest impact of getting right is the qualifying criteria of the champion. Stop calling coaches, stop calling the person that talks to you the most your champion. Test them, test them and test them. That's the one. When you have a champion and you know very, very quickly how you're going to win and if you're going to win.   Will Barron: Is that because people don't have a champion or is that because there's a champion there and we haven't identified them?   “If you're in the right deal and you've got the best value to offer, then the champion will be there. You just need to find them.” – Andy Whyte · [48:04]    Andy Whyte: Well, I guess this comes back to qualification. If you're in the right deal and you've got the best value to offer, then the champion will be there. You just need to find them.   Will Barron: Sure.   Andy Whyte: And you've got to look high, low and wide for them. That's what salespeople are afraid to. It's hard. You upset people when you go high and wide and you go around people and you need to be kind of really confident in what you're doing. And here's the thing, if somebody is blocking you from talking to someone else that's going to progress your deal, they're not a champion. They failed the qualification of your success is their success. Yeah, you've got to get high and wide.   Andy’s Advise to His Younger Self on How to Get Better at Selling · [48:40]   Will Barron: Love it. That makes total sense. Okay, Andy. Well, with that, final question, mate, that is given to everyone who comes on the show. If you could go back in time and speak to your younger self, what would be the one piece of advice you'd give him to help him become better at selling?   Andy Whyte: What a great one. Listen to the Salesman Podcast.   Will Barron: Nothing to do with the podcast and nothing to do with MEDDICC either.   Andy Whyte: Well, this is genuinely what I would say is I would tell myself to ensure that I qualify out of deals more quickly. This is what I'd say. I guarantee the audience listening to this right now, ask yourself, have you or anybody you know ever regretted qualifying out of a deal? Have you ever qualified out and walked away and gone, “You know what? I could have won that one.” It never happens and here's the real goal of this.   Andy Whyte: If you were to be qualifying out of a deal that you really should be winning, the customer will tell you. They'll say, “No, Will. Will, Will, Will, Will, Will! Stick with me here mate. We're onto something here. I know we're difficult to work with or I know I made it seem like I wasn't interested but I really am.” And so best case scenario, the customer starts paving because they've made you feel like you should qualify out or second best case scenario, it's not even a bad scenario. You save yourself a load of time and heartache by chasing [inaudible 00:49:51].   Will Barron: I love that. I've had customers come back to me and apologise and they were trying to get a discount, they were trying to do this, they're trying to do that. Sometimes, they're just buying time. You feel like they're fobbing you off, but they're just buy in time because they know the budget is coming in six months and they're too nervous to tell you that they're embarrassed about it for whatever reason.   Parting Thoughts: Andy’s Book and How to Contact Him · [50:10]   Will Barron: I love that. No one's ever said that on the show before, Andy. That's really insightful. I appreciate that mate. With that, tell us where we can find out more about you and then where we can find the book as well.   Andy Whyte: Yeah, thank you. Well, the book is on Amazon. It's MEDDICC with two Cs, Andy Whyte is W-H-Y-T-E. The reason why I sort of laugh is because I found myself between two of the most unfortunate kind of ointments on the Amazon results page.   Andy Whyte: Don't buy those or you can if you need them, no judgement . It's MEDDICC, it's on Amazon. You can find me at meddicc.com, M-E-D-D-I-C-C.com. Actually just to be awkward, my social profiles are @meddpicc on Twitter and on Instagram.   Will Barron: Perfect. Well, I'll link to all of that in the show notes for this episode over at salesman.org. With that, Andy, I want to thank you for your time. I would love to have you back on to perhaps dive into two or three of these in more detail in the future. With that one, thank you again for joining us on Salesman Podcast.   Andy Whyte: Thank you. It's been great, Will.