Commercial Photographer: Your Guide to Marketing, Creativity and Growth

This week, we're joined by professional photographer Martin Hobby. With over 30 years in the industry, Martin has experience in many genres, from weddings to corporate work to music photography. He shares his story, offering valuable advice on how to build a successful career and handle life’s unexpected challenges. Martin also sheds light on the business side of photography, the importance of community, and the surprising role of personal setbacks in professional growth.Keywords: photography, professional photographer, commercial photography, business, networking, career, wedding photographyWhat you’ll learn from this episode:The value of assisting: Find out why working as an assistant for an established professional photographer can be one of the best moves you can make for your career.Why community and networking are so important: Discover how a supportive network of fellow photographers can lead to referrals, friendships, and a stronger business.How to turn setbacks into success: Learn how to adapt your business and photography skills to overcome unexpected challenges, from moving house to global events.This week, we're joined by professional photographer Martin Hobby. With over 30 years in the industry, Martin has experience in many genres, from weddings to corporate work to music photography. He shares his story, offering valuable advice on how to build a successful career and handle life’s unexpected challenges. Martin also sheds light on the business side of photography, the importance of community, and the surprising role of personal setbacks in professional growth.Keywords: photography, professional photographer, commercial photography, business, networking, career, wedding photographyWhat you’ll learn from this episode:The value of assisting: Find out why working as an assistant for an established professional photographer can be one of the best moves you can make for your career.Why community and networking are so important: Discover how a supportive network of fellow photographers can lead to referrals, friendships, and a stronger business.How to turn setbacks into success: Learn how to adapt your business and photography skills to overcome unexpected challenges, from moving house to global events.

This episode is sponsored by Website for photographers. Website 4 photographers help photographers get more leads from their websites. You can get in touch here ⁠info@website4photographers.co.uk⁠ ⁠01482 765871⁠ The show starts talking about why would you have a business plan? The most basic answer is it helps you achieve your goals in life and in business. This is linked to where you and your business want to be in one year or in five years. Then the key is working out how you are going to get there. Sam thinks this is the essence of a business plan and it should be for you, personally.  The goals might be financial, lifestyle, number of shoots whatever is relevant and important for you. So the business plan is about you helping yourself to achieve your goals. This means the business plan is not a one off price of work that is then ignored. It is a living document, it is guiding us day to day to help us meet our goals. What do you put in a business plan? It depends what your goals are. There will usually be a financial element. There will be steps you need to take to achieve your goals. Most plans will include: Marketing, sales and finance as a minimum. There could be all sorts of other things in there like business processes, your team (if you have one). There could be a section on your development and equipment. The key is it’s about the things needed to reach your goals.   Marcus asks about if there are apps etc to help. Sam said there are loads of advice and templates out there. It’s a case of finding ones that work for you. The business plan usually contains big steps in your journey to achieve your goals. Therefore you need a system to break those down into much smaller steps that you implement in day to life in your business.   Marcus asked if an accountant or business coach is the best person to speak to, to get support with making a business plan. Sam suggests it depends on the focus of your plan.   The first step in your business planning process is thinking about what do you want to achieve. This is about making it interesting, fun and relevant for you.  

The Royal Photography Society This week Marcus is doing the show solo, without Sam, and talking to Dr Michael Pritchard from the Royal Photography Society(RPS).  Michael’s story Photography has been something Michael has been involved in since he was 11  years old.  He started working as a Saturday boy in a professional studio in the late 70s. The studio did a wide range of different work from weddings, studio and commercial work. He also got to work in the black and white darkroom. This really sparked Michael’s passion for photography. They allowed him to do his own work there, using the professional dark room. Michael went to university, but would always come back in the holidays and do more work and use the dark room. He started to develop a love of the history of photography and joined the RPS as a junior member as he wanted access to the historical group within the society. He used to go to the RPS’s London location in London and meet with the historical group. Michael got a job at Christie’s as they knew of his historical knowledge of cameras and photographs. He was organising auctions at Christie’s. Michael learnt a huge amount about the history of photography through this work.  Michael still now has a small amount of historical cameras which he still uses from time to time. He worked in Christie’s for about 20 years. He then moved to do a Phd in the history of photography. While there he still did some work from Christie’s and for the British Library who had gained the Kodak library and needed help organising it. Michael also did some teaching at DeMontford university on a module on the history of photography. Then in 2011 as he was finishing his Phd he was approached about applying for a role of the RPS as director general. Since then the role has been split in two and he then moved to the programs and education side of the role.   What does the RPS do for photographers? The RPS is a registered charity and a membership organisation. There ultimate goal is member education, helping them become better photographers. Most members of the RPS are amateur, although some are professional. Some photographers get letters after their name showing their work has been recognised by the RPS. The RPS has a journal the has been going for over 150 years. The RPS do a lot of work with the local universities. The RPS has moved from Bath to Bristol. The Bristol location gives them a large exhibition space and an auditorium. Their exhibition changes every year, but some of the work can date back to the start of the RPS. The RPS is a community of people, about ten thousand members. Part of the RPS’s work is building that community. Michael also reminds us that photography should be fun and sometimes we can forget this.   Artificial intelligence Marcus asked Michael about AI. The RPS has issued a statement about AI. Generative AI is something the RPS is wrestling with. The RPS doesn’t see AI generated images as photography. There is also the use of AI in software. So the software in your smartphone, the software in photoshop all uses AI. The RPS is comfortable about most of that, be it autofocus, setting enhancement etc. But then this software is starting to go forward doing things like replacing the sky. That is then an issue as it is no longer really a photograph. The RPS is actively wrestling with these issues. A lot of photographers are already using AI in their practice and Michael thinks it is better to work with AI than fight against it, but within certain parameters. He sees no reason why photographers can’t embrace it into their practice, as they did with digital when that came out.      

Sam and Marcus have a cozy fireside Christmas chat about the podcast over the last year. Marcus refers back to our very first show Degree or disagree. Marcus loves this for the content of the show and for the pun. This is always a debate that stirs up a lot of emotion.   Sam refers back to the show on networking. As networking is such an important part of your marketing for photographers. Marcus thinks thinks networking in person will be a great place to focus for 2024. He is going to try to do more face to face networking next year. He touches on the idea that it can be better to have a small strong community than a wide shallow pool of connections.   Marcus then talks about the show we did with Colin Smith the listening guy Marcus thinks that taking part in the show has made Sam and him better listeners and better podcasts hosts. Sam talks about the show with Donna Green. That show stands out for Sam because she was so organised. She had all her processes and systems very well organised.

Gillian Devine is a photographer of 18 years. Gillian started with weddings and babies, but is now a brand photographer, business coach and marketing mentor to other photographers. Gillian says she is where she is today as married the wrong man. She started in corporate marketing and then married a man called Phil Devine. His dad Vincent Devine was a professional photographer with 40 years experience. Gillian started to go to weddings with him. Vincent eventually mentored Gillian and helped her become a photographer. She then took over the family business. Sadly Vincent has passed away and Gillian is now longer married to Phil, but the photography continues. Gillian went through a dark time during her divorce. Her business and confidence took a big knock and she was left in a lot of debt. But she then built the business and her life back up. Working hard to get where she is today. She now helps other photographers grow their business. Sam and Gillian discuss how important being able to run a business is, and without these business and marketing skills it is hard to have a successful business. Marcus and Gillian think that back in the 90s or 2000s there were less photographers and less competition. So much less marketing was needed. A few local ads used to be enough back then. But Gillian says there is still plenty of work out there, but you need to market yourself well and get the work that is out there. Sam asks what a photographer should do who is struggling to get work. Gillian says it’s all down to your visibility, messaging and experience. Marketing is about building new connections and relationships. It’s a bit like the dating scene you have to meet a lot of people, getting visible, and then start conversations. You need to know who your ideal client is. And then you need to know where your clients hang out. As an example Gillian collaborated with a pregnancy yoga class when she was doing new born photography. Sam and Gillian discuss that first conversation and what it could be about. Gillian says advice and a free download is really great at this point. For example Gillian’s first lead magnet was a guide to what to pack into their bag for going to hospital. Nothing to do with photography. And the initial conversation is all about them. Ask lots of questions and get to know them. Gillian explains that the technical side of lead magnets does put people off. Email marketing apps are vital though, these must be used for email marketing and lead magnets.   Gillian and Marcus discuss brand photography. Gillian says that she loves it as it combines all of the elements of other areas of photography that she loves. For example the story of a wedding. Brand photography also ticks boxes to make Gillian’s life how she wants it. She has her weekends free, unlike being a wedding photographer. Marcus asks what makes a good branding photograph. Gillian says it’s full of vibe and personality. It has to tell a story of who that person is. So the photos need to reflect the person who is being photographed. Gillian says it is also a suit of images that include storytelling elements. It isn’t just a portrait. Gillian now lives in Spain. When she first though about moving in Spain she started marketing to people in Spain right away. And so when she arrived she already had quite a number of English speaking clients in Spain. For any photographer moving it’s important to plan ahead and start marketing into your new area. Gillian and Marcus agree that branding photography is very new and has really only established itself in the Uk in the last couple of years. Gillian is excited about the future for brand photography with 5.5 million businesses in the UK and they all need brand photography. You can get in touch with Gillan, she holds regular free marketing workshops and masterclasses which you can access below. https://gilliandevine.com/masterclass https://www.linkedin.com/in/gillian-devine/

Marcus’s answer is… it depends! The pros of working for free If you are starting out as a photographer Marcus thinks there are some advantages to working for free. One is getting experience. Marcus thinks that if you are working for free it allows you to try the client photographer relationship but without the client handing over any money. Portfolio building is another reason to work for free. When you are starting out you need portfolio photographs for your website, social and to show people. Experimentation. Marcus thinks this is another reason to work for free. You can be a bit more creative and experimental. The cons of working for free If you have worked for someone for free it can be hard to charge them if they come back and want further work. People who get your work for free don’t value what you produce and don’t value your time. Sam and Marcus us the analogy of the supermarket, we value more the food we get from Waitrose than the food we get from Liddle. Remember your time is valuable and does have a cost. If you do work for free it is very important that you set clear expectations from the start of a free photo shoot what is the outcome. What will you deliver and how much input to they get in this. Working for charities Should you charge working for charities? Marcus initially never charged for working with charities. But now he has realised that the charities are full of people getting paid so why shouldn’t the photographer get paid to? Sam and Marcus discuss this could be variable depending on the charity, small local ones compared to large national ones. But do remember the accountant, marketing agency etc are all charging charities for their work. Editorial photographyThis means photography for magazines. This is not an area with much money in it. But it is a chance for your photographs to be seen by many people who would not normally see it. Marcus has never been paid for photos in a magazine, and it costs him time and money for the shoot. But Marcus feels the benefits of getting his photographs in the magazine out way the costs. Personal projectsMarcus thinks all photographers should be doing personal projects. This portfolio can be shown to potential clients. Marcus says that this got him quickly to have a good job in photography.  

She helps people who have got to a point in mid life when they start ask who they are and what are they doing. Her job is about finding what really fires people up and she helps them identify that and helps them make the change towards doing what they want. “Life is an illusion of your own creation” How do you see your own life? Marcus asks what she means by mid life. Sarah says it’s the forty to sixty age bracket officially, but it’s also about mind set and where we are. And Sam commented that this is linked to children leaving home. Sarah says this is a time when people can lose themselves. It is also important to let them go and find their own way in life. Hovering over the children and not letting them make mistakes and learn doesn’t help them.   Mid life is a time when many people set up their own business, be that photography or other businesses. Sarah went through a divorce at this time and a little later set up her own business as a recruitment consultant.   Sam asked about what someone should do who is thinking about a move to setting up their own photography business. Sarah says the key is just get out their and do it. Find out what it is you like about photography and get out there and do that specific thing. Right now don’t worry about making money from it. Just get out there and work on what you love doing. And as you get known for this area of photography, you will start to find work. The key is find this area of photography that is your passion. Sarah says also avoid the push to always grow the business, scale up and move to the next level. The key is to do what is right for you right now. If you wish to make money so you can travel the world, why not make money by taking photographs while travelling around the world. There are different ways of doing things. Make sure you know what you want your life to look like, and work out from there. And be creative in how you do it. Sarah says you should value yourself, but also don’t focus on the money. Focus on what you want. Marcus asked Sarah some tips of how to get from A to B. Sarah says the first thing is define B and be specific. Where do you want to live, who do you want to spend time with, what do you want to do. And spend time thinking about this and getting it right. Without this clarity there is nothing you can do. Once you have this clarity then you can think about when opportunities come along, are these opportunities going to help me move towards B. Stepping into the role of where you are at B helps. Tell people who you are. Be present with the language you use with yourself and others. Know that B is where you want to be and talk about this in a positive way. Be yourself and follow your own path. Don’t compare yourself to others and let them bring you time. Just focus on what you want and getting to B. Surrounding yourself with the right people can really help with this. You can reach Sarah at any of the places below https://www.sarahjnaylor.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahjnaylor/ https://www.instagram.com/sjncoaching/  

This episode is sponsored by Website for photographers. Website 4 photographers help photographers get more leads from their websites. You can get in touch here ⁠info@website4photographers.co.uk⁠ ⁠01482 765871⁠ There are several different models for how to decide on a price for your services. We talk about some of the main ones in the show. 1. Charge per hour. With this approach you decide what you want to be paid per hour. Then work out how much time the whole process takes and work out a price accordingly.   2. Look at your competitors Look at your competitors websites. If you are feeling a little cheeky, phone another photographer and pretend to be a lead and get a price3. Value pricing What is the value of your work? This is hard to define. You have to think what value are you providing to someone with your service. For example what is the value of someone having that wedding album for the rest of their life and having had an amazing experience on the day.   4. Cost of business model For this approach out you work out for your business how much everything costs, including paying you the rate you want to be paid. Then work out how many jobs you will do a year. Then divide the total cost by the number of jobs and that is how much that photo-shoot costs.   Marcus mainly follows the value based system for his branding photography. But for event photography Marcus just charges on a per hour basis. And then on the rare occasion he does weddings he generally looks at others in the market and charges a similar amount. New businesses almost always charge too little. Almost all new businesses charge far too little for their services. Often new businesses can easily double their price and still have a good price. But when you do this you may initially lose customers as you move from the bottom end market into a higher level market. Sam suggests that almost everyone with a new business can increase their prices easily. Should you display your pricing? This is a big debate and everyone has a different view on this. Marcus uses the “My prices start from” approach. It is helpful that leads get a ballpark figure. Sam thinks if you have a subscription service these should always be clearly priced. He also suggests that having some packages and pricing them is a good idea. Just make sure your package is not really comparable to other photographers. That avoids direct price comparison.Subtly showing pricing The way your website and marketing look already gives subtle ideas about pricing. The customers shown the way it looks already gives leads an idea of how expensive you are. Stick to your guns If you give a price do not negotiate. Stick to the price you have offered. If it is too expensive for them offer them less for a lower price. But don’t just drop the price. If the price goes down what they get also needs to go down.Working for free Marcus suggests this is a good thing to do if there are specific things you need. For example you need photos for your portfolio if you have a new business. But ensure that if you do this you make it very clear what you want out of the process.

Allie used to lecture and the  decided to walk away when she had a photograph hanging in a gallery alongside work by Martin Parr. Allie started photography when she was 16 or 17 shooting black and white with film. But Allie had a difficult childhood and so felt she had to get a “sensible” degree so she did a degree in English literature. She then taught, until she felt she had been “bled dry”. When her daughter was in her teens Allie Crewe went to night school to study photography. Allie had already studied film and Italian at night school and loved learning.   Allie’s journey from night class to gallery was an interesting one. Her first tutor thought an image (you can see it here), the one hanging on Allie’s wall behind us as we record the podcast, had something about it. So her tutor sent it to a curator. wasn’t sure about it being sent, but her tutor sent it while Allie was taking a break in the loo. Her work was accepted and ended up in a gallery amongst lots of photographs by high calibre male photographers. She came home three mornings afterwards and decided that she would leave the security of teaching and move to being a photographer. It changed her life. From that initial success Allie has quickly enjoyed a lot of success. She had an exhibition about domestic violence that was opened by Queen Camilla. And that bought a lot of press and publicity.   Allie is unsure as to whether she could have managed this work when she was younger. All the work has been about her in some way. She has started her work thinking about herself and then connected to a group and the work then becomes about the group. One example of this was her work with trans women. Allie’s work has appeared in many national papers including the Guardian, the Telegraph and the Sun. She enjoys the social conscience work and making work that is relevant to people who want change. And she enjoys being authentic and becoming part of the group she is working with. Allie has won several awards including the BJP (British Journal of Photography) award. She got this with an image of Grace, a doctor. Allie feels that the award was a way of validating herself. Allie explained that this is a male dominated industry with a 40% pay gap. She felt this award made her feel validated and helped with imposter syndrome. But as well as the positives awards add pressure including pressure to get more. Allie also has an award from the RPS (Royal Photography Society). Allie is currently studying for her masters at Ulster and in her first year her tutor was Ken Grant. He is now with Donovan Wylie. She was with ken at Martin Parr’s studio for a few days. It was there she got asked to enter the RPS award. Sam and Allie discussed the idea that there are awards at every level that photographers can go for and these wards are great for your marketing. But equally this is not compulsory as a photographer. We can as photographers do work just for ourselves. Allies Instagram references Chris Killip who is a photographer she is drawn to. She found his recent exhibition very emotional. Allie has been careful in her masters to only reference female photographers, but personally she likes all sorts of photographers. Alessandra Sanguinetti has an amazing book called "Some say Ice". Alys Tomlinson is also an influence who Allie was looking at on the morning of our conversation. Allie still shots film, 35mm and medium format. She loves her Mamiya camera. Marcus asks Allie how people can get into shooting portraits for exhibitions magazines and books. Allie explains that for her she chose something than was personal and took it from there. She worked as an artist in residency with the help of her connections (ones she had worked hard to build). From that starting point she felt the artistic residency gave her the legitimacy she needed when showing her work or entering it for competitions.  

 Marcus talks through his customers' experienceMarcus’s customer journey Marcus likes to respond initial enquiries quickly, ideally within an hour. He then moves on to trying to setup a Zoom call. As photography is visual, having a visual call is really important. That call is all about listening not selling. Zoom also means ideas can be shared visually. After this Marcus will send out a quote, which is done automatically using his CRM. So Marcus doesn’t really talk much about pricing in that initial call, that comes in with the quote goes out. If the job goes ahead Marcus sets up another Zoom call before the shoot. This is a very creative call, talking about clothes, props and locations. It’s also a great way to get clients used to working you before you even meet.People don’t like being photographed.Marcus think in the UK people would prefer to go to the dentist than have their photograph taken. That means photographers need lots of... Techniques to relax people Chatting to themAsk them about what people do, what they did at the weekend etc. All the classic questions to try and engage people. Get people involved in the process Shooting tethered means subjects can see the results of the photographs on the screen. They can then engage much more actively with the photography.   Ask them about clothes, props and angles. Things Marcus does Observe Marcus observes people intently. He is looking for things they naturally do and then asks them to do those in the photos. It might be a way they hold their head or a way they hold their hands. Mirror This is either you showing them something and ask them to follow it. Or even better if you can quickly build rapport you can get them to just automatically copy you. So for example if you cross your arms they do it to. Direct This is the classic of the photographer telling the subject what to do. After the shoot Initially Marcus narrows the photos down to about forty or fifty photos that he sends to the client via an online platform. He has found sending more than this just confuses the client. These photos have had a light edit, but not much more.  From then what happens depends on the client. Some keep all the images, some make a selection.