Your Anxiety Toolkit - Practical Skills for Anxiety, Panic & Depression

In the realm of mental health, the significance of structured daily routines for depression cannot be overstated. Kimberley Quinlan, an anxiety specialist with a focus on mindfulness, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), and self-compassion, emphasizes the transformative impact that Daily Routines for Depression can have on individuals grappling with this challenging condition. Depression, characterized by persistent feelings of sadness, hopelessness, and a lack of interest in once-enjoyable activities, affects every aspect of one's life. Quinlan stresses that while professional therapy and medication are fundamental in the treatment of depression, integrating specific daily routines into one's lifestyle can offer a complementary path toward recovery and mental wellness. THE POWER OF MORNING ROUTINES FOR DEPRESSION Starting the day with a purpose can set a positive tone for individuals battling depression. Quinlan recommends establishing a consistent wake-up time to combat common sleep disturbances associated with depression. Incorporating light physical activity, such as stretching or a gentle walk, can significantly boost mood. Mindfulness practices, including meditation, journaling, or gratitude exercises, can help foster a healthier relationship with one's thoughts and emotions. Additionally, a nutritious breakfast can provide the necessary energy to face the day, an essential component of "Daily Routines for Depression." DAYTIME ROUTINES FOR DEPRESSION Throughout the day, setting realistic goals and priorities can help maintain focus and motivation. Quinlan advocates for the inclusion of pleasurable activities within one's schedule to counteract the anhedonia often experienced in depression. Techniques like the Pomodoro Method can aid in managing tasks without becoming overwhelmed, breaking down activities into manageable segments with short breaks in between. Exposure to natural light and ensuring a balanced diet further contribute to improving mood and energy levels during the day. EVENING ROUTINES FOR DEPRESSION As the day draws to a close, engaging in a digital detox and indulging in relaxation techniques become crucial. Limiting screen time and investing time in hobbies or skills can provide a sense of accomplishment and fulfillment. Establishing a calming bedtime routine, including activities like reading or taking a bath, can enhance sleep quality, an essential factor in "Daily Routines for Depression." WEEKLY ACTIVITIES TO OVERCOME DEPRESSION Quinlan also highlights the importance of incorporating hobbies and community engagement into weekly routines. Finding a sense of belonging and purpose through social interactions and new skills can offer a much-needed respite from the isolating effects of depression. NAVIGATING TOUGH DAYS WITH COMPASSION Acknowledging that the journey through depression is fraught with ups and downs, Quinlan advises adopting a compassionate and simplified approach on particularly challenging days. Focusing on basic self-care and seeking support when needed can provide a foundation for resilience and recovery. In conclusion, Daily Routines for Depression are not just about managing symptoms but about rebuilding a life where mental wellness is prioritized. Through mindful planning and self-compassion, individuals can navigate the complexities of depression and move towards a more hopeful and fulfilling future. PODCAST TRANSCRIPT If you’re living with depression today, we are going to go through some daily routines for your mental wellness.  Welcome. My name is Kimberley Quinlan. I’m an anxiety specialist. I talk all about mindfulness, CBT, self-compassion, and skills that you can use to help you with your mental wellness.  Let’s talk about living with depression, specifically about daily routines that will set you up for success. My goal first is to really highlight the importance of routines. Routines are going to be the most important part of your depression recovery, besides, of course, seeing your therapist and talking with your doctor about medication.  This is the work that we do at home every day to set ourselves up for success, finding ways that we can manage our depression, overcome our depression by tweaking the way in which we live our daily life because the way we live our lives often will impact how severe our depression can get. There are some behaviors and actions that can very much exacerbate and worsen depression. And there are some behaviors and routines that can very much improve your depression. So, let’s talk about them today. DEPRESSION SYMTPOMS Let’s first just get really clear on depression and depression symptoms. Depression is a common and can be a very serious mental illness and medical condition that can completely negatively impact your life—the way you feel, the way you think, the way you act. It often includes persistent feelings of sadness, emptiness, hopelessness, worthlessness that can really impact the way you see yourself and your own identity. It often includes a lack of interest in pleasure in the activities that you once enjoyed.  Depression symptoms can vary from mild to very severe. They can include symptoms such as changes in appetite, sleep disturbances, loss of energy, excessive guilt, difficulty thinking or concentrating. Sometimes you can feel like you have this whole brain fog. And again, deep, overwhelming feelings of worthlessness and hopelessness.  Now, it is important to recognize that depression is not just a temporary bout of sadness. It’s a chronic condition. It’s one that we can actually recover from, but it does require a long-term treatment plan, a commitment to taking care of yourself, including therapy and medication. So, please do speak to your medical professional and a mental health professional if you have severe depression or think you might have severe depression.  It can also include thoughts of wanting to die and not feeling like you want to live on this earth anymore. Again, if that’s something that you’re struggling with, please go to your local emergency room or immediately seek out professional mental health or medical health care.  It is so important that you do get professional help for depression because, again, depression can come down like a heavy cloud on our shoulders, and it tells a whole bunch of lies. We actually have a whole podcast episode about how depression is a big fat liar. And sometimes when you are under the spell of those lies, it’s hard to believe that anything else might be true. So, it’s very important that we take it seriously. And as we’re here today to talk about, it’s to create routines that help really nurture you and help you towards that recovery.  TREATMENT FOR DEPRESSION Before we move into those routines, I want to quickly mention the treatment for depression. The best treatment for depression is cognitive behavioral therapy. Now there is often a heavy emphasis on mindfulness and self-compassion as well. Cognitive behavioral therapy looks at both your thoughts and your behaviors. And it’s important that we look at both because both can impact the way in which this disorder plays out.  If you don’t have access to a mental healthcare professional, we also have an online course called Overcoming Depression. Overcoming Depression is an on-demand online course where I teach you the exact steps that I use with my clients to propel them into setting up their cognition so that they’re healthy, their behaviors, so that they bring a sense of pleasure and motivation, and structure into their daily lives. And then we also very heavily emphasize self-compassion and that mindfulness piece, which is so important when it comes to managing highly depressive and hopeless thoughts. So, that’s there if you want to go to CBTSchool.com/depression, or you could go to CBTSchool.com, and we have all the links right there.  DAILY ROUTINES FOR DEPRESSION All right, so let’s talk about daily routines for depression. Research shows that, specifically for depression, finding a routine and a rhythm in your day can greatly improve the chances of your long-term recovery. And so, I really take time and slow down with my patients and talk to them about what routines are working and what routines are not. I’m not here to tell you or my patients, or my students how to live their lives and what to do specifically. I’m really interested at looking at what’s working for you and what’s not. Let’s first start with morning routines.  What often very much helps—and maybe you already have this, but if not, this is something I want you to consider—is the importance of a consistent wake-up time. When you’re depressed, as I mentioned before, a common depression symptom is sleep disturbance. Often, people lay awake all night and sleep all day, or they sleep all night and they sleep all day, and they’re heavily overwhelmed with this sleepy exhaustion. It is really important when it comes to morning routines that you set a time to wake up every morning and you get up, even if it’s for a little bit, if that’s all you can handle. Try to set that really consistent wake-up time.  What I want to emphasize as we go through these routines for depression is I don’t mind if you even do tiny baby steps. One thing you might want to start from all of the ideas I give you today, you might just want to pick one. And if that’s all you can do, that is totally okay.  What we also want to do is we want to, if possible, engage in some kind of light movement, even stretching, to boost mood. There’s a lot of routine, even just stretching or gentle walks outside. It doesn’t have to be fast. It doesn’t have to be for an hour. It could be for a quarter of a block to start with. But that light exercise has been shown to boost mood significantly. And then if you’re able, maybe even to do that multiple times throughout the day.  Another morning routine that you may want to consider is some type of mindfulness practice. Again, we cover this in overcoming depression and with my patients in CBT, but some kind of mindfulness practice. It might be journaling, it could be a gratitude practice, it could be preferably some kind of meditation. Often, what I will encourage my clients to do is just listen to a guided meditation, even if you don’t really follow along exactly. But you’re just learning about these concepts. You’re learning about the tools. You’re getting curious about them if that’s all you can do. Or if you want, you could even go more into reading a book about mindfulness, starting to learn about these ideas and concepts because they will, again, help you to have a better relationship with your thoughts and your feelings.  Another morning routine I want you to maybe consider here is to have some type of nutritious breakfast, something that supports your mental health. We want to keep an eye out for excessive sugar, not that there’s anything wrong with sugar, but it can cause us to have another energy dump, and we want to have something that will improve our energy. With depression, usually, we don’t have much energy at all. So, whatever tastes yummy, even if nothing feels yummy, but there’s something that maybe slightly sounds good, have that. If it’s something that you enjoy or have good memories about, or if it’s anything at all, I’m happy just for you to eat anything at all if it’s not something that you’ve been doing.  Let’s now move over to work-day or daytime strategies or routines. The first thing I want you to consider here throughout the day is setting realistic daily goals and priorities. We have a course at CBT School called Optimum Time Management, and one of the core concepts of that course, which teaches people how to manage their time better, is we talk about first prioritizing what’s most important.  If you have depression, believe it or not, one of the most important things you can do to prioritize in your daily schedule is pleasure. And I know when you have depression, sometimes nothing feels pleasurable. But it’s so important that you prioritize and schedule your pleasure first. Where in the day can you make sure that you do something enjoyable, even if it’s this enjoyable, even if nothing is enjoyable, but you used to find it enjoyable? We want to prioritize your self-care, prioritize your eating, having a shower, brushing your teeth. If nothing else gets done that day, that’s okay. But we want to prioritize them depending on what’s important to you.  Now, if you’re someone who’s depressed because you’re so overwhelmed with everything that you have to do—again, we talk about this in the time management course—we want to really look at the day and look at the schedule and say, “Is this schedule nurturing a mental health benefit to me? Is it maybe time for me to reprioritize and take things off my schedule so I can get my mental health back up to the optimum level?”  I have had to do this so many times in the last few years, especially as I have suffered a chronic illness, really separate like an hour to really look at the calendar and say, “Are these things I’m doing actually helping me?” Sometimes I found I was doing things for the sake of doing them to check them off the list, but I was getting no mental benefit from them. No real value benefit from them either.  Another daytime strategy you can use is a technique or a tool called the Pomodoro Technique or the Pomodoro Method. This is where we set a timer for a very short period of time and we go and we do the goal and we focus on the thing for a short period of time. So, an example might be I might set a timer for 15 minutes, and all I’m going to do during that 15 minutes is write email. If 15 minutes is too much for you, let’s say maybe you need to tidy up your dishes, you might set a timer for 45 seconds and just get done with what you can for 45 seconds and then take a short break. Then you set the timer again. All I have to do is 45 seconds or a minute and a half or three minutes or five minutes, whatever is right for you, and put your attention on just getting that short Pomodoro little bout done.  This can be very helpful to maintain focus. It can be very helpful to maintain the stress of that activity, especially if it’s an activity that you’re dreading. And so, do consider the Pomodoro technique. You can download free apps that have a Pomodoro timer that will set you in little increments. It was actually, first, I think, created for exercise. So, it sets it like 45 minutes on, 20 seconds off, 45 seconds on. And so, you can do that with whatever task you’re trying to get done as well.  Another daytime routine I want you to consider is getting some kind of natural light or going outdoors. There is so much research to show that going outside, even if it’s for three minutes, and taking in the green of the earth or the dirt under your feet, really getting in touch and grounding with some kind of nature, or being in the sunlight, can significantly improve mood. So, consider that as well. And again, I’m going to mention, make sure you eat lunch. Eat something that boosts your mood and boosts your energy levels.  Now let’s talk about evening or wind-down routines for depression or practices. Now, number one, one of the things that we often do the most, which we really need to be better about, and this is me too, is doing some kind of digital detox in the evenings. Try your hardest to limit screen time before bed because we know screens before bed actually disturb our sleep. We also know that often we spend hours, hours of our day scrolling on social media. And even though that might feel pleasurable, it actually removes us from engaging in hobbies and things that actually make us feel good about ourselves.  One of the best ways to feel good about who you are and to feel accomplished is to be learning something or mastering something. I don’t care if it’s something that you’re starting and you’re terrible at. We have a lot of research that even moving and practicing a skill will improve and boost your mood so much more than an hour of sitting and watching funny TikTok videos.  Now, again, if all you want to do is that for right now, that’s fine. Maybe spend five minutes doing some hobby or task—something that you enjoy or used to enjoy—that you feel like you’re getting better at. Maybe you learn Spanish, you learn to crochet, you learn to knit, you do paint by number. It doesn’t matter what it is. Just pick something and work at something besides looking at a screen, especially in the evenings.  Another evening routine I want you to consider is some kind of relaxation technique for depression—reading, take a bath, maybe do again some stretching or some light yoga, maybe dance to one song. Anything you can do to, again, move your body. Again, we have so much research to show that moving your body gently, especially in the evening, can help with mood.  Another thing here is to find a comfortable sleep routine and bedtime routine. So, if you can, again, go back to your scheduling, and if you’re not good at this—we do have that online course for time management—create a nighttime routine that feels yummy in your bones. Maybe it’s reading a book, a lovely warm blanket, the pillow you love, a scent—sometimes an oil diffuser would be lovely for you. Dim the lights, close the blinds, create a nice, warm, cozy nook where you can then ease into your sleep.  Overall, weekly activities and routines that you may want to consider for your mental wellness include again finding hobbies. It doesn’t have to be grand. You don’t have to sign up for a marathon. You don’t have to become an amazing artist. You can just pick something that you suck at. That’s okay.  I always tell my patients to do paint by number. It requires very little mental energy, but you do have this cool thing that you did at the end that you can gift somebody, or you can even scrap it at the end, it doesn’t matter. Put it up on your wall—anything to get you out of your head and out of the mood piece—and really get into your body, moving your hands and thinking about focusing on other things.  One of the most important things that you can do to help boost mood and decrease depression is to find a community of like-minded people. The social interaction and improving and maintaining connections between people are going to be so important. In fact, in some countries, the treatment per se for depression, no matter how depressed somebody is, the community go and get them, bring them out, they have a party for them, they cook for them, they surround them, they dance with them. And that’s how those communities and tribes help people get through depression. And we in our Western world have forgotten this beautiful, important piece of community and being a part of a big community family.  Now, if you have struggled with this and it’s been difficult, I encourage you to reach out to support groups. There are so many ways—meet-up groups, local charities, volunteering, maybe finding again a hobby, but a place where you go and you’re with other people, even just doing that. You don’t have to spend a lot of time, but being around people. Even though when you’re depressed, I know it doesn’t feel like that’s a helpful thing. We do know that it does connect those neural pathways in our brain and does help with the management and maintenance of depression recovery.  Now, what do we do, and how can we maintain these routines on the really tough days? When it comes to handling the tough days, I understand it can feel overwhelming. All of this can feel like so, so much. But what I’m going to encourage you to do is keep it really simple. Just doing your basic functioning is all that’s required on those really tough days. It doesn’t matter if you don’t get all the things done on your list. Be compassionate, be gentle, encourage yourself, look at the things you did do instead of the things you didn’t get to do, and also seek support. Reach out to your mental health professional or a support group or your medical doctor or family or a friend or a neighbor if you’re really needing support.  There will be hard days. Depression is not linear. Recovery for depression is not linear. It’s up and down. There will be hard days. So, be as gentle as you can. Keep it as simple and as basic as you can. Do one thing at a time. Try not to focus at the whole day and all the things you have to do. That’s going to help you feel less overwhelmed and, again, help you get through one thing a day.  Let me do a quick recap. The importance of routine is huge. Routines are going to be probably one of the most important parts of your long-term recovery, besides, of course, treatment and medication. It will help you to get through the hard and stressful days and will also allow you to slowly make steps into the life that you want, and often, because we have depression, depression can take away the life that we want. So, that routine can help you slowly build up to the things that you want to do and get back to the life that you do really value.  I encourage you all to play around with this. Remember, look at the routine you have already, and maybe add one thing for now. Take what works for you, but if some of the things I mentioned today, don’t leave them. Please don’t feel judged or embarrassed if some of these aren’t really working for you. We have to look at what works for us and be very gentle with ourselves with that as well. I hope this has been helpful. The routines have really saved me in my mental health. And so, I hope it helps you just as much as it’s helped me.  Have a great day, and I’ll see you guys next week.

In the insightful podcast episode featuring Joanna Hardis, author of "Just Do Nothing: A Paradoxical Guide to Getting Out of Your Way," listeners are treated to a deep dive into the concept of distress tolerance and its pivotal role in mental health and personal growth. Joanna Hardis, with her extensive background in treating anxiety disorders such as panic disorder, OCD, and Generalized Anxiety Disorder, shares her professional and personal journey toward understanding and teaching the art of effectively managing internal discomfort without resorting to avoidance or escape tactics. The discussion begins with an exploration of the title of Joanna's book, "Just Do Nothing," which encapsulates the essence of her therapeutic approach: the intentional practice of stepping back and allowing thoughts, feelings, and sensations to exist without interference. This practice, though seemingly simple, challenges the common impulse to engage with and control our internal experiences, which often exacerbates suffering. A significant portion of the conversation is dedicated to "distress intolerance," a term that describes the perceived inability to endure negative emotional states. This perception leads individuals to avoid or escape these feelings, thereby increasing vulnerability to a range of mental health issues including anxiety, depression, and substance abuse. Joanna emphasizes the importance of recognizing and altering the self-limiting beliefs and thoughts that fuel distress intolerance. Practical strategies for enhancing distress tolerance are discussed, starting with simple exercises like resisting the urge to scratch an itch and gradually progressing to more challenging scenarios. This gradual approach helps individuals build confidence in their ability to manage discomfort and makes the concept of distress tolerance applicable to various aspects of life, from parenting to personal goals. Mindfulness is highlighted as a crucial component of distress tolerance, fostering an awareness of our reactions to discomfort and enabling us to respond with intention rather than impulsivity. The podcast delves into the importance of connecting with our values and reasons for enduring discomfort, which can provide the motivation needed to face challenging situations. Joanna and Kimberley also touch on the common traps of negative self-talk and judgment that can arise during distressing moments, advocating for a more compassionate and accepting stance towards oneself. The idea of "choice points" from Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) is introduced, encouraging listeners to make decisions that align with their values and move them forward, even in the face of discomfort. The episode concludes with a message of hope and empowerment: everyone has the capacity to work on expanding their distress tolerance. By starting with small, manageable steps and gradually confronting more significant challenges, individuals can cultivate a robust ability to navigate life's inevitable discomforts with grace and resilience. EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS:  The Concept of "Just Do Nothing": This core idea revolves around the practice of intentionally not engaging with every thought, feeling, or sensation, especially when they're distressing. It's about learning to observe without action, which can reduce the amplification of discomfort and suffering. Understanding Distress Intolerance: Distress intolerance refers to the belief or perception that one cannot handle negative internal states, leading to avoidance or escape behaviors. This concept highlights the importance of recognizing and challenging these beliefs to improve our ability to cope with discomfort. Building Distress Tolerance: The podcast discusses practical strategies to enhance distress tolerance, starting with simple exercises like resisting the urge to scratch an itch. The idea is to gradually expose oneself to discomfort in a controlled manner, thereby building resilience and confidence in handling distressing situations. Mindfulness and Awareness: Mindfulness plays a crucial role in distress tolerance by fostering an awareness of our reactions to discomfort. This awareness allows us to respond intentionally rather than react impulsively. The practice of mindfulness helps in recognizing when we're "gripping" distressing thoughts or sensations and learning to gently release that grip. Aligning Actions with Values: The podcast emphasizes the significance of connecting actions with personal values, even in the face of discomfort. This alignment can motivate us to face challenges and make choices that lead to personal growth and fulfillment, rather than making decisions based on the urge to avoid discomfort. These concepts together form a comprehensive approach to managing distress and enhancing personal well-being, as discussed by Joanna Hardis in the podcast episode. TRANSCRIPTION:  Kimberley: Welcome, everybody, today. We have Joanna Hardis. Joanna wrote an amazing book called Just Do Nothing: A Paradoxical Guide to Getting Out of Your Way. It was a solid gold read. Welcome, Joanna. Joanna: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for reading it, too. I appreciate it. Kimberley: It was a wonderful read and so on point, like science-backed. It was so good, so you should be so proud. Joanna: Thank you. Kimberley: Why did you choose the title Just Do Nothing? Joanna: I mean, it’s super catchy, but more importantly than that, it is really what my work involves on a personal level and on a professional level—learning how to get out of my own way or our own way by leaving our thoughts alone, learning how to leave uncomfortable feelings alone, uncomfortable sensations alone, uncomfortable thoughts alone. Because that’s what creates the suffering—when we get so engaged in them. Kimberley: Yeah. It’s such a hard lesson. I talk about this with patients all the time. But as I mentioned to you, even my therapist is constantly saying, “You’re going to have to just feel this one.” And my instinct is to go, “Nope. No thanks. There has to be another way.” Joanna: A hundred percent. Yes. I mean, it really is something on a daily basis. I have to remind myself and work really hard to do. Kimberley: It is. But it is such powerful work when you do it.  Joanna: Mm-hmm.  Kimberley: Early in the book, you talk about this term or this concept called ‘distress intolerance.’ Can you tell us what both of those are and give us some ideas on why this is an important topic? Joanna: Sure, and this is what got me interested in the book and everything. Distress tolerance is a perception that you can handle negative internal states. And those internal states can be that you feel anxious, that you feel worried, you feel bored, vulnerable, ashamed, angry, sad, mad, off. There’s an A to Z alphabet of those unpleasant and uncomfortable emotional states. And when we have that perception that we can handle it, our behavior aligns, so we tend to do things.  When we are distress-intolerant, we have a perception—often incorrect—that we cannot handle negative internal states. So then we will either avoid them or escape them or try to figure them out or neutralize them or try to get rid of them, make them stop—all the things that we see in our work every day.  Before I had my practice in anxiety disorders, I worked over a decade in an eating disorder treatment center, and we know that when someone has really low distress tolerance, they are more vulnerable to developing eating disorders, anxiety disorders, depressive disorders, substance use disorders. So, it’s a really important concept. Kimberley: It’s such an important concept. And you talk about how the thoughts we have which can determine that. Do you want to share a little bit about that? Because there was a whole chapter in the book about the thoughts you have about your ability to tolerate distress. Joanna: Sure, and I didn’t answer the second part of your question., I just realized, which will tie into that, which is how it sounds. How it sounds is, “I can’t bear to feel this way, so I’m going to avoid that party,” or “I’m having too good of a day, so I can’t do my homework,” or “I can’t bear if my kids see me anxious, so we’re not going to go to the playground.” And so, what drives someone’s perception are their thoughts and these thoughts and these self-limiting stories that we all have, and that oftentimes we just buy into as either true, or perhaps at one point, they may have been true, but we’ve outlived them. Kimberley: Yeah. We’re talking about distress tolerance, and I’m always on the hunt to widen my distress tolerance to be able to tolerate higher levels of distress. And I think what’s interesting is, first, this is more of a question that I don’t know the science behind it, but do you think some people have higher levels of distress which makes them more intolerant, or do you think the intolerance which is what makes the distress feel so painful? Joanna: I don’t know the research well enough to answer it. Because I think it’s rare that you see -- I mean, this is just one construct. So it’s very hard to isolate it from something like emotional sensitivity or anxiety sensitivity or intolerance for uncertainty, or something else that may be contributing to it. Kimberley: Yeah. No, I know. It’s just a question I often think about, particularly when I’m with patients. And this is something that I think doesn’t really matter at the end of the day. What matters is—and maybe this will be a question for you—if our goal is to increase our distress tolerance, how might somebody even begin to navigate that? Joanna: Sure. I love that question. I mean, in the book, I take it down to such a micro level, which is learning how—and I think you’ve talked about it on podcasts—itch serve. So, one of the exercises in the book is learning how you set your timer for five minutes and you get itchy, which of course is going to happen. And it’s learning how to ride out that urge to scratch the itch. So, paying attention to. If you zoom in on the itch, what happens?  What happens when you zoom out? What else can you pay attention to?  And so when someone learns that process, that is on such a micro level. I often tell patients it’s like a one-pound weight. Kimberley: Yes. Joanna: And then what are some two-pound weights that people can use? So then, for many people, it’s their phone. So, it’s perhaps not checking notifications that come in right away. They begin to practice in low-distress situations because I want people to get confident that they know how to zoom in, they know how to zoom out. They know if they’re feeling a sensation, the more that they pay attention to it, the worse it’s going to feel. And so, where else can they put their awareness? What else can they be doing?  And once they get the hang of it, we introduce more and more distress. So then, it might be their phone, then it might be them intentionally calling up a thought. And we work up that way with adding in, very gradually, more distress or more discomfort. Exercise is a great way, especially if it’s not married to anxiety, to get people interacting with it differently. Kimberley: Yeah. We use this all the time with anxiety disorders. It’s a different language because we talk about an ERP hierarchy, or your exposure menu, and so forth. But I love that in the book, it’s not just specific to that. It could be like you talked about. It’s for those who have depression. It’s those who have grief. It’s those who have eating disorders. It’s those who have anger. I will even say the concept of distress tolerance to me is so interesting because there’s so many areas of my life where I can practice it. Like my urgency to nag my kids another time to get out the door in time, and I have to catch like, “You don’t need to say it the third time.” Can you tolerate your own discomfort about the time it’s taking them to get out the door? And I think that when we have that attitudinal shift, it’s so helpful. Joanna: Yes. I find parenting as one of the hardest places for me, but it was also a reminder like the more I keep my mouth shut, the better. Kimberley: Yeah. And I think that’s really where I was talking before. I found parenting to be quite a triggering process as my kids have gotten older, but so many opportunities for my own personal growth using this exact scenario. Like your fear might come up, and instead of engaging in that fear, I’m actually just going to let it be there and feel it and parent according to my values or act according to my values. And I’ve truly found this to be such a valuable tool. Joanna: Yes. And I have found what’s been really interesting, when my kids were at home, that was where my distress was. Now that the two of the three are out of the house, my distress is when we’re all together and everyone have a good time. And so, it morphs, because what I tell myself and my perception and the urgency, it changes. It’s still so difficult with them, but it changes based on what’s happening. Kimberley: Yeah. And I think this is an opportunity for everyone, too. How much do you feel that awareness piece is important in being aware that you are triggered? For the folks listening, of course, you’re on the Your Anxiety Toolkit podcast. Most are listening because they have anxiety. Do you encourage them to be aware of other areas? They can be practicing this.  Joanna: Yes. Kimberley: Can you talk to me about that? Joanna: 100%, because I feel like -- what is that metaphor about the onion? It’s like the layers of an onion. So, people will come, and they’ll think it’s about their anxiety. But this is really about any uncomfortable feeling or uncomfortable sensation. And so. It may be that they’re bored or vulnerable or embarrassed or something else. So, once someone learns how to allow those feelings and do what is important to them or what they need to do while they feel it, then yes, I want them to go and notice where else in their life this is showing up. Kimberley: Talk to me specifically about how in real-time, because I know that’s what listeners are going to ask.  Joanna: Of course. Kimberley: I have this scary thing I want to be able to do, but I don’t want to do it because I’m scared, and I don’t want to feel scared. How might someone practice tolerating their distress in real-time? Joanna: I’m going to answer two ways. One, I would say that might be something to scale. Sometimes people want to do the thing because doing the thing is like the goal or the sexy thing, but if it’s outside of their window of tolerance, they may not be able to do it. So, it depends on what they want to do. So, I might say, as just a preface, this might be something that people should consider scaling.  Kimberley: Gradual, you mean? Joanna: Yes. So, for instance, they want to go to the gym, but they’re scared of fainting on the treadmill or something. Pretty common for what we see. It would be like, scale it back. So it might be going to the parking lot. It might be taking a tour. It might be going and standing on the treadmill. It might be walking on the treadmill. But we have to put it in smaller pieces.  In the moment that we’re doing something that is difficult, first, we have to notice if we’re starting to grip. I use this “if we’re starting to grip” something. If we’re starting to zoom in on what we don’t like, if we’re starting to zoom in on a sensation we don’t like, a thought we don’t like, a feeling we don’t like, I want people to notice that and you get better at noticing it faster.  The first thing is you got to notice it, that it’s happening, because that’s going to make it worse. So, you want to be able to notice it. You want to be able to loosen your grip on it. So, that might be finding out what else is going on in my surroundings. So, I’m on the treadmill, I’m walking maybe at a faster pace, and I’m noticing that my heart rate is going up, and I’m starting to zoom into that. What else am I noticing, or what else am I hearing? What else do I see? What else is going on around me? Can we make something else a louder voice? And so, every time that my brain wants to go back to heart focus, it’s like, no, no. It’s taking it back to something else that’s going on. And it helps to connect with why is this important to do? So, as I’m continuing to say, “I’m okay. I am safe. I’m listening. I’m focusing on my music, and I’m looking out the window," This is really important to do because my health is important. My recovery is important. It becomes that you’re connecting to something that’s important, and the focus is not on what we don’t like because that’s going to make it bigger and stronger. Kimberley: Right. As you’re doing that, as we’ve already mentioned, someone might be having those can’t thoughts, like I can’t handle it, even if it’s within their window of tolerance, right? It’s reasonable, and it’s an appropriate exposure. How might they manage this ongoing “You can’t do this, this is too hard, it’s too much, you can’t handle it” kind of thinking? Joanna: I like “This may suck, and I can do it.” Kimberley: It’s funny. I will tell you, it’s hilarious. In the very beginning of the book, you make some comments about the catchphrases and how you hate them, and so forth. I always laugh because we have a catchphrase over here, but it’s so similar to that in that we always talk about, like it’s a beautiful day to do hard things. And that seems to be so hopeful for people, but I do think sometimes we do get fed, like over positive ways. You have a negative thought, so we respond very positively, right? And so, I like “This is going to suck, and I’m going to do it anyway.” Joanna: Yes. So you’re acknowledging this may suck, especially if you’re deconditioned, especially if you’re scared. It may suck AND—I always tell people not the BUT—AND I can do it. Even in 30-second increments. So, if someone is like, “I can’t, I cant,” I’ll say, “You can do anything for 30 seconds.” So then we pile on 30 seconds. Kimberley: Yeah. And that’s such an important piece of it too, which is just taking a temporary mindset of we can just do this for a little tiny bit and then a little tiny bit and then a little tiny bit.  Joanna: Yes, I love that. I love that. Kimberley: Why do we do this? What’s the draw? Sell me on why someone wants to do this work. Joanna: To do...? Kimberley: Distress tolerance. We talk about this all the time. Why do we want to widen our distress tolerance? Joanna: Oh my goodness. Oh my gosh. I think once you realize all the little areas that may be impacting one’s life, it just blows your mind. But in a practical sense, people can stay stuck. When people are stuck. This is often a piece. It’s absolutely not the whole reason people are stuck, but this is such a piece of why people get stuck. And so I think for anyone that might feel stuck, perhaps they want a different job or they want to show up differently as a parent or they feel like they are people-pleasers, or they’re having trouble dating because they get super controlling. It can show up in any area of one’s life. Kimberley: Yeah. For me, the selling point on why I want to do it is because it’s like a muscle—if I don’t continue to grow this muscle, everything feels more and more scary. Joanna: Oh, sure. Yeah, hundred percent. Kimberley: The more I go into this mindset of “You can’t handle it and it’s too much, it’s too scary” things start to feel more scary. The world starts to feel more unsafe, whereas that attitude shift, there’s a self-trust that comes with it for me. I trust that I can handle things. Whereas if I’m in the mindset of “I can’t,” I have no self-trust. I don’t trust that I can handle scary things, and then I’m constantly hypervigilant, thinking when the next scary thing's going to happen. Joanna: Right. Another reason to also practice doing it, if you never challenge it, you don’t get the learning that you can do it. Kimberley: Yeah. There’s such empowerment with this work. Joanna: Yes. And you don’t have to do big, scary things. You don’t have to jump out of an airplane to do it or pose naked, because I see that on Instagram now, people who are conquering their fears by doing these. Very Instagram-worthy tasks, which could be very scary. We can do it, just like you say, with not nagging our kids, by choosing what I want to make for dinner versus making so many dinners because I am so scared that I can’t handle it if my kids are upset with me. Kimberley: Right. And for those who have anxiety, I think from the work I do with my patients is this idea of being uncertain feels intolerable. That feeling. You’re talking about these real-life examples. And for those who are listening with anxiety, I get it. That feeling of uncertainty feels intolerable, but again, that idea of widening your tolerance or increasing your ability to tolerate it in 10-second increments can stop you from engaging in compulsions that can make your disorder worse or avoiding which can make your disorder worse. Do you have any thoughts on that? Joanna: I 100% agree with you. I always say, let’s demote intolerable to uncomfortable. Because I feel sometimes like I have to know I can’t stand it, I’m crawling out of my skin. But if I’m then able to get some distance from it, that’s the urgency of anxiety. Kimberley: Yeah. It’s such beautiful work. Joanna: Yes, and especially the more people do, they’re able to say, “You know what? I can do things.” It may feel intolerable. That diffusion, it may feel intolerable. It’s probably uncomfortable. So, what is the smallest next step I can take in this situation to do what I need to do and not make it worse? That’s a big thing of mine—not making a situation worse. Kimberley: Yes. And that’s where the do-nothing comes in. Joanna: Yes. That’s the paradoxical part.  Kimberley: Yeah. Is there any area of this that you feel like we haven’t covered that’s important to you, that would be an important piece of this work that someone may consider as they’re doing this work on their own? Joanna: I think and I know that you are a big proponent of this too. I think it’s very hard to do this work without some mindful awareness practice. And I talk about it in the book. It’s just such an enhancer. It enhances treatment, but it also enhances our daily life. So, I can’t say strongly enough that it is so important for us to be able to notice this pattern when we are saying, “Oh my gosh, I can’t take this,” or “I can’t do this.” And then the behavior and to think about what’s the function of me avoiding. But if we’re going so fast and our gas pedal is always to the floor, we don’t have the opportunity to notice. Kimberley: Yeah, the mindfulness piece is so huge. And even, like you’re saying, the mindfulness piece of the awareness but also the non-judgment in mindfulness. As you’re doing the hard thing, as you’re tolerating distress, you’re not sitting there going, “This sucks and I hate it.” I mean, you’re saying like it will suck, and that's, I think, validating. It validates you, but not staying in “This is the worst, and I hate it, and I shouldn’t be here.” That’s when that suffering does really show up.  Joanna: Yes. The situation may suck. It doesn’t mean I suck. That was a hard lesson to learn. The situation may, but I don’t have to pour gas on it by saying, “How long is it going to last? Oh my gosh, this feeling’s never going to end. Do I still feel it? Oh my gosh, do I still feel it as much?” All the things that I’m prone to do or my clients are prone to do that extend the suffering. Kimberley: Make it worse. Joanna: Yeah, exactly. Kimberley: It’s a great question, actually. And I often will talk with my patients about it, in the moment, when they’re in distress. Sometimes writing it down, like what can we do that would make this worse? What can we do that will make this better? And sometimes that is doing nothing at all. And you do talk about that in the book. Joanna: Yeah. Kimberley: The forward and the backward.  Joanna: The choice points. Yes. Kimberley: Can you share just a little bit about that? Joanna: It’s a concept from ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy) that says, when we have a behavior, a behavior can either move us toward or forward what’s meaningful in our values or can move us away from it. And so, as we’re thinking about doing whatever the hard thing maybe or it may not even be a hard thing; it just may be something you don’t want to do. Thinking about what your why is, what’s the forward move? Why is it meaningful to you? What do you stand to get? What’s on the other side? Because most of us are well versed, and if we give in, that’s an away move. And we have to be able to do this non-judgmentally because some days it’s just not in us, and that’s totally fine. But I want people to be honest with themselves and non-judgmental about whatever decisions they make. But it does help to have a reason that moves us forward. Kimberley: Absolutely. I think that’s such an important piece of the work. Again, that’s the selling point of why we would want to be uncomfortable. There’s a goal or a why that gets us there. Joanna: Yeah. And it’s amazing how much pain we will put up with. I mean, think about all the things people like—waxing and some of these exercise classes. It’s amazing because it’s important to someone. Kimberley: Exactly. And I think that’s a great point too, which is we do tolerate distress every day when we really are clear on what we want. And I think sometimes we have these things like I can’t handle it, but you might even ask like, what are some harder things that I’ve actually tolerated in my lifetime? Joanna: Yes, exactly because there’s a lot of things you’re so right that we do that are uncomfortable, but it’s worth it because, for whatever reason, it’s worth it. Kimberley: Yeah, I love this. I have loved chatting with you. I know I’ve asked you this already, but is there any final words you want to share before we learn more about you and where people can get in touch with you? Joanna: I just want people to know that anybody can do this. It may be that it’s just creating the right scale—a small enough step forward—but anybody can work on this. There are so many areas and ways in which we can strengthen this muscle. And so there is hope. No one is broken. It may be that people just don’t know the next best move. Kimberley: I love that. Thank you. Where can people hear more about you and get in touch with you? Joanna: My website is JoannaHardis.com and my Instagram is the same thing, @JoannaHardis. And excitingly, the book just came out in audio yesterday.  Kimberley: Congratulations.  Joanna: Thank you. Thank you.  Kimberley: That’s wonderful. And we can get the book wherever books are sold.  Joanna: Wherever books are sold, yes. Kimberley: I really do encourage people to buy it. I think it’s a book you could pick up and read once a year, and I think that there’s messages. You know what I’m saying? There are some books where you could just revisit and take something from, so I would really encourage people to buy the book and just dabble in the many concepts that you share. Joanna: Wonderful. Thank you. Kimberley: Yeah. Thank you so much for being on the show. This is such a concept and a topic that I’m really passionate about, and for myself too. I think it’s something I’ll be working on until I’m 99, I think. Joanna: Me too. I’m with you right there. Kimberley: There’s always an opportunity where I’m like, “Oh okay. There’s another opportunity for me to grow. All right, let’s get on board. Let’s go back to the school.” So, I think it’s really wonderful. Thank you so much for being here. Joanna: Thank you so much for having me.

Visual Staring OCD (also known as Visual Tourrettic OCD), a complex and often misunderstood form of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, involves an uncontrollable urge to stare at certain objects or body parts, leading to significant distress and impairment. In an enlightening conversation with Kimberley, Matt Bannister shares his journey of overcoming this challenging condition, offering hope and practical advice to those grappling with similar issues. Matt's story begins in 2009, marked by a sense of depersonalization and dissociation, which he describes as an out-of-body experience and likened to looking at a stranger when viewing himself in the mirror. His narrative is a testament to the often-overlooked complexity of OCD, where symptoms can extend beyond the stereotypical cleanliness and orderliness. Kimberley's insightful probing into the nuances of Matt's experiences highlights the profound impact of Visual Staring OCD on daily life. The disorder manifested in Matt as an overwhelming need to maintain eye contact, initially with female colleagues, out of fear of being perceived as disrespectful. This compulsion expanded over time to include men and intensified to such a degree that Matt felt his mind couldn't function normally. The social implications of Visual Staring OCD are starkly evident in Matt's recount of workplace experiences. Misinterpretation of his behavior led to stigmatization and gossip, deeply affecting his mental well-being and leading to self-isolation. Matt's story is a poignant illustration of the societal misunderstandings surrounding OCD and its variants. Treatment and recovery form a significant part of the conversation. Matt emphasizes the role of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) and Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP) in his healing process. However, he notes the initial challenges in applying these techniques, underscoring the necessity of a tailored approach to therapy. Kimberley and Matt delve into the power of community support in managing OCD. Matt's involvement with the IOCDF (International OCD Foundation) community and his interactions with others who have overcome OCD, like Chris Trondsen, provide him with valuable insights and strategies. He speaks passionately about the importance of self-compassion, a concept introduced to him by Katie O'Dunne, and how it transformed his approach to recovery. A critical aspect of Matt's journey is the realization and acceptance of his condition. His story underscores the importance of proper diagnosis and understanding of OCD's various manifestations, which can be as unique as the individuals experiencing them. Matt's narrative is not just about overcoming a mental health challenge; it's a story of empowerment and advocacy. His transition from a struggling individual to a professional peer support worker is inspiring. He is now dedicated to helping others navigate their paths to recovery, using his experiences and insights to offer hope and practical advice. In conclusion, Matt Bannister's journey through the complexities of Visual Staring OCD is a powerful testament to the resilience of the human spirit. His story offers valuable insights into the disorder, challenges misconceptions, and highlights the importance of tailored therapy, community support, and self-compassion in overcoming OCD. For anyone struggling with OCD, Matt's story is a beacon of hope and a reminder that recovery, though challenging, is within reach. Instagram - matt bannister27 Facebook - matthew.bannister.92 Facebook group - OCD Warrior Badass Tribe Email :matt3ban@hotmail.com Kimberley: Welcome back, everybody. Every now and then, there is a special person that comes in and supports me in this way that blows me away. And today we have Matt Bannister, who is one of those people. Thank you, Matt, for being here today. This is an honor on many fronts, so thank you for being here. Matthew: No, thank you for bringing me on, Kim. This is a huge honor. I’m so grateful to be on this. It’s just amazing. Thank you so, so much. It’s great to be here. Kimberley: Number one, you have been such a support to me in CBT School and all the things that I’m doing, and I’ve loved hearing your updates and so forth around that. But today, I really want you to come on and tell your story from start to end, whatever you want to share. Tell us about you and your recovery story. Matthew: Sure. I mean, I would like to start as well saying that your CBT School is amazing. It is so awesome. It’s helped me big time in my recovery, so I recommend that to everyone. I’m an IOCDF grassroots advocate. I am super passionate about it. I love being involved with the community, connecting with the community. It’s like a big family. I’m so honored to be a part of this amazing community. My recovery story and my journey started back in 2009, when—this is going to show how old I am right now—I remember talking on MSN. I remember I was talking; my mind went blank in a conversation, and I was like, “Ooh, that’s weird. It’s like my mind’s gone blank.” But that’s like a normal thing. I can just pass it off and then keep going forward. But the thing is with me. It didn’t. It latched on with that. I didn’t know what was going on with me. It was very frightening. I believe that was a start for me with depersonalization and dissociation. I just had no idea of what it was. Super scary. It was like I started to forget part of my social life and how to communicate with people. I really did start to dissociate a lot when I was getting nervous. And that went on for about three or four years, but it gradually faded naturally. Kimberley: So you had depersonalization and derealization, and if so, can you explain to listeners what the differences were and how you could tell the differences? Matthew: Yeah. I think maybe, if I’m right with this, with the depersonalization, it felt like I knew how it was, but I didn’t at the same time. It was like when I was looking in a mirror. It was like looking at a stranger. That’s how it felt. It just felt like I became a shell of myself. Again, I just didn’t know what was happening. It was really, really scary. I think it made it worse. With my former friends at that time, we’d make fun of that, like, “Oh, come on, you’re not used to yourself anymore. You’re not as confident anymore. What’s going on? You used to try and take the [03:19 inaudible] a lot with that.” With the dissociation, I felt like I was having an out-of-body experience. For me, if I sat in a room and it was really hitting me hard, as if I were anxious, it would feel like I was floating around that room. I couldn’t concentrate. It was very difficult to focus on things, especially if it was at work. It’d be very hard to do so. That came on and off. Kimberley: Yeah, it’s such a scary feeling. I’ve had it a lot in my life too, and I get it. It makes you start to question reality, question even your mental health. It’s such a scary experience, especially the first time you have it. I remember the first time I was actually with a client when it started. Matthew: Yeah, it is. Again, it is just a frightening experience. It felt like even when I was walking through places, it was just fog all the time. That’s how it felt. I felt like someone had placed a curse on me. I really believe that with those feelings, and how else can I explain it? But that did eventually fade, luckily, in about, like I said, three to four years, just naturally on its own. When I had those sensations, I got used to that, so I didn’t put as much emphasis on those situations. Then I carried on naturally through that. Then, well, with going through actually depersonalization, unfortunately, that’s when my OCD did hit. For me, it was with, I believe, relationship OCD because I was with someone at the time. I was constantly always checking on them, seeing if they loved me. Like, am I boring you? Because I thought of depersonalization. I thought I wasn’t being my full authentic self and that you didn’t want to be within me anymore. I would constantly check my messages. If they didn’t put enough kisses on the end of a message, I think, “Oh, they don’t love me as much anymore. Oh no, I have to check.” All the time, even in phone calls, I always made sure to hear that my partner would say, “Oh, I love you back,” or “I love you.” Or as I thought, I did something wrong. Like they’re going off me. I had a spiral, thinking this person was going to cheat on me. It went on and on and on and on with that. But eventually, again, the relationship did fade in a natural way. It wasn’t because of the OCD; it was just how it went. And then, with relationship OCD, with that, I faded with that. A search with my friends didn’t really affect me with that. Then what I can recall, what I have maybe experienced with OCD, I’ve had sexual orientation OCD. Again, I was questioning my sexuality. I’m heterosexual, and I was in another warehouse, a computer warehouse, and it was all males there. I was getting what I describe as intrusive thoughts of images of doing sexual acts or kissing and stuff like that. I’m thinking, “Why am I getting these thoughts? I know where my sexuality is.” There’s nothing wrong, obviously, with being homosexual or queer. Nothing wrong with that at all. It’s just like I said, that’s how it fades with me. I mean, it could happen again with someone who’s queer, and it could be getting heterosexual thoughts. They don’t want that because they know they’re comfortable with their sexuality. But OCD is trying to doubt that. But then again, for me, that did actually fade again after about five or six months, just on its own. And then, fast forward two years later is when the most severe theme of OCD I’ve ever had hit me hard like a ton of bricks. And that for me was Visual Tourettic OCD, known as Staring OCD, known as Ocular Tourettic OCD. And that was horrendous. The stigma I received with this theme was awful. I remembered the day when it hit me, when I was talking to a female colleague. Like we all do, we all look around the room and we try and think of something to say, but my eyes just landed on the chest, like just an innocent look. I’m like, “Oh my God, why did I do that? I don’t want to disrespect this person in front of me. I treat her as an equal. I treat everyone the same way. I don’t want to feel like she’s being disrespected.” So I heavily maintained eye contact after that. Throughout that conversation, it was fine. It was normal, nothing different. But after that, it really latched onto me big time. The rumination was massive. It was like, you’ve got to make sure you’re giving every single female colleague now eye contact. You have to do it because you know otherwise what stigma you could get. And that went on for months and years, and it progressed to men as well a couple of years later. It felt like my mind can’t function anymore. I remember again I was sitting next to my friend, who was having a game on the PlayStation. And then I just looked at his lap, just for no reason, just looked at his lap, and he said, “Ooh, I feel cold and want to go and change.” I instantly thought, “Oh my God, is it because he thought I might have stared that I creeped him out?” And then it just seriously latched onto me big time. As we all know, with this as well, when we think of the pink elephant allergy, it’s like when we don’t think of the pink elephant, what do we do? And that’s what it was very much like with this. I remember when it started to get really bad, my eyes would die and embarrass somebody part places. It was like the more anxious I felt about not wanting to do it, the more it happened, where me and my good friend, Carol Edwards, call it a tick with the eye movement. So like Tourette, let’s say, when you get really nervous, I don’t know if this is all true. When someone’s really nervous, maybe they might laugh involuntarily, like from the Joker movie, or like someone swearing out loud. This is the same thing with eye movement. Every time I was talking to a colleague face-to-face to face, I was giving them eye contact, my mind would be saying to me, “Don’t look there, don’t look there, don’t look there,” and unfortunately think it would happen. That tick would happen. It would land where I wouldn’t want it to land. It was very embarrassing because eventually it did get noticed. I remember seeing female colleagues covering their hi vis tops, like across their arms. Men would cover their crotches. They would literally cross their legs very blatantly in front of me. Then I could start to hear gossip. This is when it got really bad, because I really heard the stigma from this. No one confronted me by the way of this face-to-face, but I could hear it crystal clear. They were calling me all sorts, like deviant or creep or a perv. “Have you seen his eyes? Have you seen him looking and does that weird things with his eyes? He checks everyone out.” It was really soul-destroying because my compulsion was to get away from everyone. I would literally hide across a room. Where no one else was around, I would hide in the cubicles because it was the only place where I wasn’t triggered. It got bad again. It went to my family, my friends, everyone around me. It didn’t happen with children, but it happened with every adult. It was horrendous. I reached out to therapy. Luckily, I did get in contact with a CBT therapist, but it was talk therapy. But it’s better than nothing. I will absolutely take that. She was amazing. I can’t credit my therapist enough. She was awesome. If this person, maybe this is like grace, you’re amazing, so thank you for that. She was really there for me. It was someone I could really talk to, and it can help me and understand as best as she could. She did, I believe, further research into what I had. And then that’s when I finally got diagnosed that I had OCD. I never knew this was OCD, and everything else made sense, like, “Oh, this is why I was going through all those things before. It all now makes concrete sense what I was going through.” Then I looked up the Facebook group called Peripheral Vision/Visual Tourettic OCD. That was a game-changer for me. I finally knew that I wasn’t alone because, with this, you really think you’re alone, and you are not. There are thousands of people with this, or even more. That was truly validating. I was like, “Thank God I’m not the only one.” But the problem is, I didn’t really talk in that group at first because I thought if other people saw me writing in that group, it’s going to really kill my reputation big time. That would be like the final nail in the coffin. Even though it was a private group, no one could do that. But I didn’t still trust it that much at that time. I was doing ERP, and I thought great because I’ve researched ERP. I knew that it’s effective. Obviously, it’s the gold standard. But for me, unfortunately, I think I was doing it where I was white-knuckling through exposures. Also, when I was hearing at work, still going back to my most triggering place, ERP, unfortunately, wasn’t working for me because I wasn’t healing. It was like I was going through the trigger constantly. My mind was just so overwhelmed. I didn’t have time to heal. I remember I eventually self-isolated in my room. I didn’t go anywhere. I locked myself away because I thought I just couldn’t cope anymore. It was a really dark moment. I remember crying. It was just like despair. I was like, “What’s happening to me? Why is all this happening to me?” Later on, I did have the choice at work. I thought, I can either go through the stillest, hellacious process or I can choose to go on sick leave and give my chance to heal and recover. That’s why I did. And that was the best decision I ever made. I recommend that to anyone who’s going through OCD severely. You always have a choice. You always have a choice. Never pressure yourself or think you’re weak or anything like that, because that’s not the case. You are a warrior. When you’re going through things like this, you are the most strongest person in the world. It takes a lot of courage to confront those demons every single day to never ever doubt yourself with that. You are a strong, amazing individual. When I did that, again, I could heal. It took me two weeks. Unfortunately, my therapy ended. I only had 10 sessions, but I had to wait another three months for further therapy in person, so I thought, “Oh, at least I do eventually get therapy in person. That’s amazing.” And then the best thing happened to me. I found the IOCDF community. Everything changed. The IOCDF is amazing. The best community, in my opinion, the world for OCD. My god, I remember when I first went on Ethan’s livestream with Community Conversations. I reached out to Ethan, and he sent me links for OCD-UK. I think OCD Action as well. That was really cool of him and great, and I super appreciate that, and you knew straight away because I remember watching this video with Jonathan Grayson, who is also an amazing guy and therapist, talking about this. I was like, again, this is all that I have. And then after that, I reached out to Chris Trondsen as the expert. What Chris said was so game-changing to me because he’s gone through this as well and has overcome it. He’s overcome so many severe themes of OCD. I’m like, “This guy is amazing. He is an absolute rock star. Literally like a true champion.” For someone to go through as much as he has and to be where he is today, I can’t ask for any more inspirement from that. It’s just incredible. He gave some advice as well in that livestream when we were talking because I reached out and said, how did you overcome this? He said, “With the staring OCD, well, I basically told myself, while I’m staring, well, I might as well stare anyway.” And that clicked with me because I’m thinking he’s basically saying that he just didn’t give it value anymore. I’m like, “That’s what I’ve been doing all this time. I’ve given so much value, so much importance. That’s why it keeps happening to me.” I’m like, “Okay, I can maybe try and work with this.” Then I started connecting with Katie O'Dunne, who is also amazing. She was the first person I actually did hear about self-compassion. I’m like, “Yes, why didn’t I learn about this early in my life? Self-compassion is amazing. I need to know all about this.” It makes so much sense. Why’d I keep beating myself up when I treat a friend, like when I talked to myself about this? No, I wouldn’t. I just watched Katie’s streams and watched her videos and Instagram. It was just an eye-opener for me. I was like, “Wow, she’s talking about, like, bring it on mindset as well with this.” When you’re about to face the brave thing, just say, “Bring it on. Just bring on," like The Rock says. "Just bring it. I just love that. That’s what I did. That’s what I started doing. I connected as well with my friend, Carol Edwards, who is also a former therapist and is the author of many books. One of them was Address Staring OCD. If anyone’s going through this as well, I really recommend that book. Carol is an amazing, amazing person. Such an intelligent woman. When I met Carol, it was like the first time in my life. I was like, “Wow, I’m actually talking to someone who’s got the same theme as me, and a lot of other themes I’ve gone through, she has as well.” We just totally got each other. I was like, “Finally, I’m validated. I can talk to someone who gets it truly.” And that really helped, let’s say, when I started to learn about value-based exposures. I remember, again, Katie, Elizabeth McIngvale, Ethan, and Chris. I was like, “Yeah, I mean, I’m going to do it that way,” because I just did ERP before I was white-knuckling. I never thought of doing it in a value-based way. So I thought, okay, well, what is OCD taking away that I enjoy most doing? That’s what I did. I created a hierarchy, or like even in my mind. I thought, well, the cinema, restaurants, coffee shops, going to concerts, eventually going on holiday again, seeing my friends, family is most probably most important. I started doing baby steps. I remember as well, I asked Chris and Liz, how do I open up to this to my family? Because I’ve got to a point where I just can’t hide behind a mask anymore. I need someone else to know who’s really close to me. Chris gave me some amazing advice, and Liz, and they said that if you show documents, articles, videos about this, long as they have a great understanding of mental health and OCD, you should be okay. And that’s what I did. They know I had OCD. I’ve told them I had OCD, but not the theme I had. When I showed them documents and videos, it was so nerve-racking, I won’t lie. But it was the best thing I ever did because then, when they watched that, they came to me and said, “Why didn’t you tell us about this before? I thought you wouldn’t understand or grasp this.” I know OCD awareness in the UK is not the best, especially with this theme. But they said, “No, after watching that, we’re on your team; we will support you. We are here for you. We will do exposures with you.” And they gave me a massive hug afterwards. I was like, “Oh my God, this is the best scenario for me ever,” because then I can really amplify my recovery. This is where it started really kicking on for me now. Everything I’ve learned, again, from those videos, watching with the streams from IOCDF, I’ve incorporated. Basically, when I was going to go to the cinema at first, I know that the cinema is basically darkness. When you walk through there, no one’s really going to notice you. Yeah, they might see you in their peripheral vision, but they’re going to be more like concentrating on that movie than me. That was my mindset. I was like, “Well, if I was like the other person and I didn’t have VTO and the other person did, would I be more concentrated on them or the movie?” And for me, it would be obviously the movie. Why would I else? Unless they were doing something really vigorous or dancing in front of me, I’m not going to look. And that’s my mindset. The deep anxiety was there, I will be honest. It was about 80 percent. But I had my value because I was going to watch a film that I really wanted to watch. I’m a big Marvel fan. It was Black Panther Wakanda, and I really enjoyed that. It was a long movie as well. I went with my friend. We got on very, very well. For me as well, with this trigger, I get triggered when people can move as well next to me. I’m very hyper-vigilant with this. That can include me with the peripheral as well. But even though my eyes say they died, it was, okay, instead of beating myself up, I can tell myself this is OCD. I know what this is. It doesn’t define me. I’m going to enjoy watching this movie as much as I can and give myself that compassion to do so. After that moment, I was like, “Wow, even though I was still triggered, I enjoyed it. I wasn’t just wanting to get out of there. I enjoyed being there.” And that was starting to be a turning point for me because then I went to places like KFC. I miss KFC. I love my chicken bucket. I won’t lie with that. That was a big value. You got to love the chicken bucket folks. Oh, it was great. Well, I had my parents around me so that they know I was pretty anxious still. But I was there. I was enjoying my chicken again. I was like, “I miss this so much.” And then the best thing is, as far as I remember, when I left that restaurant, they said to me, “We’re so proud of you.” And that helps so much because when you’re hearing feedback like that, it just gives you a huge pat on the back. It’s like, yeah, I’ve just done a big, scary thing. I could have been caught. I could have been ridiculed. I could have been made fun of. People may have gossiped about me, but I took that leap of faith because I knew it’s better than keep isolating, where in my room, being in prison, not living a life. I deserve to live a life. I deserve to do that. I’m a human being. I deserve to be a part of human society. After that, my recovery started to progress. I went to my friend Carol to more coffee shops. We started talking about advocacy, powerful stuff, because when you have another reason on a why to recover, that’s a huge one. When you can inspire and empower others to recover, it gives you so much more of a purpose to do it because you want to be like that role model, that champion for the people. It really gives you a great motive to keep going forward with that and that motivation. And then I went to restaurants with my family for the first time in years, instead of making excuses, instead of compulsion. People would still walk by me in my peripheral, but I had the mindset, like Kate said, “You know what? Just bring it on. Just bring it.” I went in there. I know I was still pretty anxious, and I sat on my phone, and I’m going to tell myself using mindfulness this time that I’m going to enjoy the smell of the food coming in. I’m going to enjoy the conversation with my family instead of thinking of, let’s say, the worst-case scenario. The same with a waiter or waitress coming by. I’m just going to have my order. And again, yeah, my eyes die, they spit in my food—who knows? But I’m going to take that leap of faith because, again, it’s worth it to do this. It is my why to get my life back. That’s why I did it. Again, I enjoyed that meal, and I enjoyed talking to my family. It was probably the first time in years where I wasn’t proper triggered. I was like, that was my aha moment right there. The first time in years where my eyes didn’t die or anything. I just enjoyed being in a normal situation. It was so great to feel that. So validating. Kimberley: So the more triggered you were, the harder it was to not stare? Is that how it was? Matthew: Yes. The more triggered I was going down that rabbit hole, the more, let’s say, it would happen because my eyes would die, like up and down. It would be quite frantic, up and down, up and down. Everyone’s not the same. Everyone’s different with this. But that’s what mine would be like. That’s why I would call it a tick in that sense. But when we feel calm, obviously, and the rumination is not there, or let’s say, the trigger, then it’s got no reason to happen or be very rare when it does. It’s like retraining. I learned to retrain my mind in that sense to incorporate that into doing these exposures. Again, that’s what was great about opening up to my family. I could practice that at home because then, when I’m sitting with my family, I’d still be triggered to a degree, but they know what I have. They’re not going to judge me or reject me, or anything like that. So my brain healed naturally. The more I sat next to my family, I could bring that with, say, the public again and not feel that trigger. I could feel at ease instead of feeling constantly on edge. Again, going to coffee shops late, looking around the room, like you say so amazingly, Kim, using your five senses. I did that, like looking around, looking at billboards, smelling the coffee again, enjoying the taste of it, enjoying the conversation, enjoying the surroundings where I am instead of focusing on the prime fear. And that’s what really helped brought me back to the present. Being in the here and the now. And that was monumental. Such a huge tool, and I recommend that to everyone. Mindfulness is very, very powerful for doing, let’s say, your exposures and to maintain recovery. It’s just a game-changer. I can’t recommend that enough. One of my biggest milestones with recovery when I hit it, the first time again in years, I went to a live rock concert full of 10,000 people. There would be no way a year prior that would I go. Kimberley: What rock concert? I have to know. Matthew: Oh, I went to Hollywood Vampires. Kimberley: Oh, how wonderful! That must have been such an efficient, like, it felt like you crossed a massive marathon finish line to get that thing done. Matthew: Oh, yeah, it was. It was huge to see, like I say, Alice Cooper, Johnny Depp, and I think—I can’t remember this—Joe Perry from Aerosmith. I can’t remember the drummer’s name, I apologize, but it was great. You know what? I rocked out. I told myself, “I’ve come this far in my journey, I’m going to rock out. I’m going to enjoy myself. I don’t care, let’s say, where my eyes may go, and that’s telling OCD, though. I’m just going to be there in the moment and enjoy rocking out.” And that’s exactly what I did. I rocked out big time. I remember even the lead singer from the prior band pointing at me and waving. I would have been so triggered by that before, but now we’re back in the game, the rock on sign, and it was great. Kimberley: There’s so much joy in that too, right? You were so willing to be triggered that you rocked out. That’s how willing we were to do that work. It’s so cool, this story. Matthew: Yeah. The funny part is, well, the guy next to me actually spilled beer all over himself. That would have been so triggering against me before, like somebody’s embarrassing body part places. Whereas this time I just laughed it off and I had a joke with him, and he got the beer. It was like a normal situation—nothing weird or anything. His wife, I remember looking at my peripheral, was just cross-legged. But hey, that’s just a relaxing position like anyone else would do. That’s what I told myself. It’s not because of me thinking, “Oh, he’s a weirdo or a creep.” It’s because she’s just being relaxed and comfortable. That’s just retraining my mind out, and again, refocusing back to the concert and again, rocking out to Alice Cooper, which was amazing. I really enjoyed it. I just thought it’s just incredible from where I was a year ago without seeing-- got to a point where I set myself, I heard the worst stigma imaginable to go to the other aspect, the whole end of the other tunnel, the light of the tunnel, and enjoy myself and being free. I love what Elizabeth McIngvale says about that, freedom over function. And that’s exactly at that point where that’s where I was. I’m very lucky to this day. That’s why I’ve maintained it. Sometimes I still do get triggered, but it’s okay because I know it’s OCD. We all know there’s no cure, but we can keep it in remission. We can live a happy life regardless. We just use the tools that we’ve learned. Again, for me, values-based exposure in that way was game-changing. Self-compassion was game-changing. I forgot to mention my intrusive thoughts with sexual images as well with this, which was very stressing. But when I had those images more and more, it’s basically what I learned again from Katie. I was like, “Yeah, you know what? Bring it on. Bring it on. Let’s see. Turn it up. Turn it up. Crank it up.” Eventually, the images stopped because I wasn’t giving fear factor to it. I was going to put the opposite of basically giving it the talk-to-the-hand analogy, and that worked so well. I see OCD as well from Harry Potter. I see OCD as the boggart, where when you come from the boggart, it’s going to come to your most scariest thing. But you have that power of choice right there and then to cast the spell and say ridiculous, as it says in the Harry Potter movies, and it will transform into something silly or something that you can transform yourself with compassion and love. An OCD can’t touch you with that. It can’t. It becomes powerless. That’s why I love that scene from that film. Patrick McGrath says it so well with the Pennywise analogy. The more fear we feed the beast or the monster, the more stronger it becomes. But when we learn to give ourselves self-compassion and love and, again, using mindfulness and value and knowing who we authentically are, truly, it can do nothing. It becomes powerless. It can stay in the backseat, it might try and rear its ugly head again, but you have the more and the power in the world to bring it back, and you can be firmly in that driver’s wheel. Kimberley: So good. How long did it take you, this process? Was it a short period of time, or did these value-based exposures take some time? Matthew: Yeah, at first, it took some time to master it, if that makes sense. Again, I was going to start going to more coffee shops with my friend Carol or my family. It did take time. I was still feeling it to a degree, but probably about after a month, it started to really click. And then overall, it took me about-- I started really doing this in December, January time. I went to that concert in July. So about, yeah, six, seven months. Kimberley: Amazing. Were there any stages where there were blips in the road, bumps on the road? What were they like for you? Matthew: Yeah. I mean, my eyes did that sometimes. Also, like I said, when I started to do exposures, where I’d walk by myself around town places, it could be very nerve-wracking. I could think I’m walking behind someone that all the might think I’m a stalker and things like that because of the staring. That was hard. Again, I gave myself the compassion and told myself that it’s just OCD. It doesn’t define who I am. I know what this monster is, even though it’s trying its very best to put me down that rabbit hole. Yeah, that person might turn around and say something, or even look. I have the choice again to smile back, or I can even wave at them if I wanted to do so. It just shows that you really have all the power or choice to just throw some back into OCD space every single time. Self-compassion was a huge thing that helped smooth out those bumps. Same with mindfulness. When I was getting dissociated, even when I was still getting dissociated, getting really triggered, I would use the mindfulness approach. For example, when I was sitting in pubs, and that was a value to me as well, sometimes that would happen. But I would then use the tools of mindfulness. And that really, really helped collect myself being present back in the here and the now and enjoying what’s in front of me, like having a beer, having something to eat, talking to my friend, instead of thinking like, are they going to see me staring at them weirdly? Or my eyes met out someone, and I don’t know, the waitress might kick me out or something like that. Instead of thinking all those thoughts, I just stay present. The thing is with this as well, it’s like when you walk down places, people don’t even look at you really anyway. They just go about their business, like we all do. It’s just remembering that and keeping that mindfulness aspect. You can look around where you are, like buildings, trees, the ocean, whatever you like, and you can take that in and relearn. Feel the wind around you. If it’s an ice wind, obviously, that’s freezing right now. The smells—anything, anything if it’s a nice smell, or even if it’s a bad smell. Anything that use your senses that can just bring you back and feel again that peace, something you enjoy, surround yourself with. Again, when I was seeing my friend Carol, the town I went to called Beverley, it’s a beautiful town, very English. It is just a nice place. That’s what I was doing—looking at the scenery around where I was instead of focusing on my worst worries. Kimberley: This is so cool. It’s all the tools that we talk about, right? And you’ve put them into practice. Maybe you can tell me if I’m wrong or right about this, but it sounds like you were all in with these skills too. You weren’t messing around. You were ready for recovery. Is that true? Or did you have times where you weren’t all in? Matthew: Yeah, there were times where I wasn’t all in. I suppose when I was-- I also like to ask yourself with me if I feel unworthy. That is still, I know it’s different to staring OCD and I’m still trying to tackle that sometimes, and that can be difficult. But again, I use the same tools. But with, like I say, doing exposures with VTO, I would say I was all in because I know that if I didn’t, it’s going to be hard to reclaim my life back. I have a choice to act and use the tools that I know that’s going to work because I’ve seen Chris do it. It’s like, “Well, I can do it. I’ve seen Carol do it. That means I can do it. So I’m going to do it.” That’s what gave me the belief and inspiration to go all in. Because again, reach out to the community with the support. If it was a hard time, I’d reach out. The community are massive. The connection they have and, again, the empowerment and the belief they can give you and the encouragement is just, oh, it’s amazing. It’s game-changing. It can just light you up straight off the bar when you need it most, and then you can go out and face that big scary thing. You can do it. You can overcome it because other people have. That means you can do it. It’s absolutely possible. Having that warrior mindset, as some of my groups—the warrior badass mindset—like to call it, you absolutely go in there with that and you can do it. You can absolutely do it. Kimberley: I know you’ve shared with me a little bit privately, but can you tell us now what your big agenda is, what your big goal is right now, and the work you’re doing? Because it’s really exciting. Matthew: Sure, I’d be glad to do it. I am now officially a professional peer support worker. If anyone would love to reach out to me, I am here. It’s my biggest passion. I love it. It’s like the ultimate reward in a career. When you can help someone in their journey and recovery and even empower each other, inspire, motivate, and help with strategies that’s worked for you, you can pass on them tools to someone else who really needs it or is still going through the process where it’s quite sticky with OCD. There’s nothing more rewarding than that. Because for me, when I was at my most severe, when I was in my darkest, darkest place, it felt like a void. I felt like just walking through a blizzard of nothing. Having someone there to speak to who gets it, who truly gets it, and who can be really authentically there for you to really say, “You can do this. I’m going to do it with you. Let’s do it. Like really, let’s do it. Bring it on, let’s do it. Let’s kick this thing’s butt,” it’s huge. You really lay the smackdown on OCD. It’s just massive. For me, if I had that when I was going through it, again, I had a great therapist, but if I had a peer support worker, if I was aware that they were around—I wasn’t, unfortunately, at that time—I probably would have reached out because it’s a huge tool. It’s amazing. Even if you’re just to connect with someone in general and just have a talk, it can make all the difference. One conversation, I believe, can change everything in that moment of what that person’s darkness may be. So I’m super, super excited with that. Kimberley: Very, very exciting. Of course, at the end, I’ll have everyone and you give us links on how to get to you. Just so people know what peer support counseling is or peer support is, do they need to have a therapist? Who’s on the team? What is it that they need in order to start peer support? Matthew: Yeah. I mean, you could have a therapist. I mean, I know peer support workers do work with therapists. I know Chrissie Hodges. I’ve listened to her podcast, and she does that. I think it may be the same with Shannon Shy as well. I’m not too sure. I think as well to the person, what they’re going through, if they would want to at first reach out to a peer support worker that they know truly understands them, that can be great. That peer support like myself can then help them find a therapist. That’s going to really help them with their theme—or not just their theme—an OCD specialist who gets it, who’s going to give them the right treatment. That can be really, really beneficial. Kimberley: I know that we’ve worked with a lot of peer support, well, some peer support providers, and it was really good because for the people, let’s say, we have set them up with exposures and they’re struggling to do it in their own time, the peer support counselor has been so helpful at encouraging them and reminding them of the tools that they had already learned in therapy. I think you’re right. I think knowing you’re not alone and knowing someone’s done it, and I think it’s also just nice to have someone who’s just a few steps ahead of you, that can be very, very inspiring for somebody. Matthew: Absolutely. Again, having a peer support work with a therapist, that’s amazing. Because again, for recovery, that’s just going to amplify massively. It’s like having an infinite gauntlet on your hand against OCD. It’s got no chance down the long run. It’s incredibly powerful. I love that. Again, like you said, Kim, it’s like when someone, let’s say, they know that has reached that mountain top of recovery, and that they look at that and thinking, “Well, I want to do the same thing. I know it would be great to connect with that person,” even learn from them, or again, just to have that connection can make a huge, huge difference to know that they can open up to other people. Again, for me, it’s climbing up that other mountain top with someone else from the start, but to know I’ve got the experience, I get to climb that mountain top with them. Kimberley: Yeah, so powerful. Before we finish up, will you tell us where people can get ahold of you if they want to learn more? And also, if there’s anything that you feel we could have covered today that we didn’t, like a main last point that you want to make. Matthew: Sure. People can reach out to me, and I’m going to try and remember my tags. My Instagram tag is matt_bannister27. I think my Facebook is Matthew.Bannister.92, if you just type in Matthew Bannister. It would be in the show notes as well. You can reach out to me on there. I am at the moment going to create a website, so I will fill more onto that later as well. My email is matt3ban@hotmail.com, which is probably the best way to reach out to me. Kimberley: Amazing. Anything else you want to mention before we finish up? Matthew: Everyone listening, no matter what darkness you’re going through, no matter what OCD is putting in your way, you can overcome it. You can do it. As you say brilliantly as well, Kim, it’s a beautiful day to do hard things. You can make that as every day because you can do the hard things. You can do it. You can overcome it, even though sometimes you might think it’s impossible or that it’s too much. You can do it, you can get there. Even if it takes baby steps, you’re allowed to give yourself that compassion and grace to do so. It doesn’t matter how long it takes. Like Keith Smith says so well: “It’s not a sprint; it’s a marathon.” When you reach that finish line, and you will, it’s the most premium feeling. You will all get there. You will all absolutely get there if you’re going through it. Oh, Kim, I think you’re on mute. Kimberley: I’m sorry. Thank you so much for being on. For the listeners, I actually haven’t heard your story until right now too, so this is exciting for me to hear it, and I feel so inspired. I love the most that you’ve taken little bits of advice and encouragement from some of the people I love the most on this planet. Ethan Smith, Liz McIngvale, Chris Trondsen, Katie O’Dunne. These are people who I learn from because they’re doing the work as well. I love that you’ve somehow bottled all of their wisdom in one thing and brought it today, which I’m just so grateful for. Thank you so much. Matthew: You’re welcome. Again, they’re just heroes to me, and yourself as well. Thank you for everything you do as well for the community. You’re amazing. Kimberley: Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. Matthew: Anytime.

If you want to know the 5 Most Common Recovery Roadblocks with Chris Tronsdon (an incredible anxiety and OCD therapist), you are in the right place. Today Chris and I will go over the 5 Most common anxiety, depression, & OCD roadblocks and give you 6 highly effective treatment strategies you can use today.  Kimberley: Welcome everybody. We have the amazing Chris Trondsen here with us today. Thank you for coming, Chris. Chris: Yes, Kim, thanks for having me. I’m super excited about being here today and just about this topic. Kimberley: Yes. So, for those of you who haven’t attended one of the IOCDF Southern California conferences, we had them in Southern California. We have presented on this exact topic, and it was so well received that we wanted to make sure that we were spreading it out to all the folks that couldn’t come.  You and I spoke about the five most common anxiety & OCD treatment roadblocks, and then we gave six strategic solutions. But today, we’re actually broadening it because it applies to so many people. We’re talking about the five most common anxiety treatment roadblocks, with still six solutions and six strategies they can use. Thank you for coming on because it was such a powerful presentation. Chris: No, I agree. I mean, we had standing room only, and people really came up to us afterwards and just said how impactful it was. And then we actually redid it at the International OCD Foundation, and it was one of the best-attended talks at the event. And then we got a lot of good feedback, and people kept messaging me like, “I want to hear it. I couldn’t go to the conference.” I’d play clips for my group, and they’re like, “When is it going to be a podcast?” I was like, “I’ll ask Kim.” I’m glad you said yes because I do believe for anybody going through any mental health condition, this list is bound, and I think the solutions will really be something that can be a game changer in their recovery. Kimberley: Absolutely, absolutely. I love it mostly because, and we’re going to get straight into these five roadblocks, they’re really about mindset and going into recovery. I think it’s something we’re not talking about a lot. We’re talking about a lot of treatment, a lot of skills, and tools, but the strategies and understanding those roadblocks can be so important. Chris: Yeah. I did a talk for a support group. They had asked me to come and speak, and I just got this idea to talk about mindset. I did this presentation on mindset, and people were like, “Nobody’s talking about it.” In the back of my head, I’m like, “Kim and I did.” But we’re the only ones. Because I do think so many people get the tools, right? The CBT tools, they get the ERP tools, the mindfulness edition, and people really find the tools that work for them. But when I really think of my own personal recovery with multiple mental health diagnoses, it was always about mindset. And that’s what I like about our talk today. It’s universal for anyone going through any mental health condition, anxiety base, and it’s that mindset that I think leads to recovery. It shouldn’t be the other way around. The tools are great, but the mindset needs to be there. Kimberley: Yeah. We are specifically speaking to the folks who are burnt out, feeling overwhelmed, feeling a lack of hope of recovery. They really need a kickstart, because that was actually the big title of the presentation. It was really addressing those who are just exhausted with the process and need a little bit of a strategy and mindset shift. Chris: Yeah. I don’t want to compare, but I broke my ankle when I was hiking in Hawaii, and I have two autoimmune diseases. Although those ailments have caused problems, especially the autoimmune, when I think back to my mental health journey, that always wore me out more because it’s with you all the time, 24/7. It’s your mental health. When my autoimmune diseases act up, I’m exhausted, I’m burnt out, but it’s temporary. Or my ankle, when it acts up, I have heating pads, I have things I can do, but your brain is with you 24/7. I do believe that’s why a lot of people resonate with this messaging—they are exhausted. They’re busting their butt in treatment, but they’re tired and hitting roadblocks. And that’s why this talk really came about. Kimberley: Yeah, exactly. All right, let’s get into it here in a second. I just want to give one metaphor with that. I once had a client many years ago give the metaphor. She said, “I feel like I’m running a marathon and my whole family are standing on the out, like on the sidelines, and they’re all clapping, but I’m just like faceplant down in the middle of the road.” She’s like, “I’m trying to get up, I’m trying to get up, and everyone’s telling me, ‘Come on, you can do it.’ It’s so hard because you’re so exhausted and you’ve already run a whole bunch of miles.” And so I really think about that kind of metaphor for today. If people are feeling that way, hopefully they can take away some amazing nuggets of information.  Chris: Absolutely. That’s a good visual. Faceplant. Kimberley: It was such a great and powerful visual because then I understood this client’s experience. Like, “Oh, okay. You’re really tired. You’re really exhausted.” ROADBLOCK #1: YOU BEAT YOURSELF UP! Okay, let’s get into it. So, I’m going to go first because the number one roadblock we talked about, not that these are in any particular order, but the one we came up first was that you beat yourself up. This is a major roadblock to recovery for so many disorders. You beat yourself up for having the disorder. You beat yourself up for not coping with it as well as you could. You beat yourself up if you have OCD for having these intrusive thoughts that you would never want to have. Or you’re beating yourself up because you don’t have motivation because you have, let’s say, some coexisting depression.  The important thing to know there is, while beating yourself up feels productive, it might feel like you’re motivating yourself, or you may feel like you deserve it. It actually only makes it harder. It only makes it feel like you’ve got this additional thing. Again, a lot of my patients—let's use the marathon example—might yell at themselves the whole way through the marathon, but it’s not a really great experience if you’re doing that, and it takes a lot of energy.  SOLUTION #1: SELF-COMPASSION So what we offered here as a strategic solution is self-compassion—trying to motivate and encourage yourself using kindness. If you’re going through a hard day, maybe, just if you’ve never tried this before, trial what it would be like to encourage yourself with kind words or asking for support, asking for help so that you’re not burning all that extra energy, making it so much harder on yourself, increasing your suffering. Because I often say to patients, the more you suffer, the more you actually deserve self-compassion. It’s not the other way around. It’s not that the more you suffer, the less you deserve it. Do you have any thoughts on that, Chris? Chris: Oh yeah. I would say I see that across the board with my clients, this harshness, and there’s this good intention behind it, this idea that if I can just bully myself into recovery. I always try to remind clients that anxiety-based disorders, it’s a part of our bodies as well. Our brain is a part of our body, just like our arm, our tibia, our leg, all these other bones, but there’s a lack of self-empathy that we have for ourselves, as if it’s something that we’re choosing to do. Someone with a broken leg doesn’t wake up in the morning and get mad at themselves that their leg is still broken. They have understanding, and they’re working on their exercises to heal. It’s the same with these disorders.  So, the reason I love self-compassion is when we go and step in to help one of our friends, we use a certain tone, we use certain words, we tap into their strengths, we use encouragement because we know that method is going to be what boosts them up and helps them get through that rough patch. But for some reason, when it’s ourselves, we completely abandon everything we know that’s supportive, and we talk to ourselves in a way that I almost picture like a really negative boot camp instructor, like in the military, just yelling and screaming into submission. The other thing is when we’re beating ourselves up like that, we’re more likely to tap into our unhelpful habits. We’re more likely to shut down and isolate, which we see a lot in BDD, social anxiety, et cetera. But that self-compassion isn’t like a fake pop culture support. It’s really tapping into meeting yourself where you’re at, giving yourself some understanding, and tapping into the strategies that have worked in the past when you’re in a low moment.  I know sometimes people are like, “I don’t know how to do that,” but you’re doing it to everybody else in your life. Now it’s time to give yourself that same self-compassion that you’ve been giving to everybody important to you. Kimberley: Yeah, and we actually have a few episodes on Your Anxiety Toolkit on exactly how to embrace self-compassion, like how that might actually look. So, if people are really needing more information there, I can add in the show notes some links to some resources there as well.  ROADBLOCK #2: THERE WILL BE HARD DAYS  Okay. Now, Chris, can you tell us about the second most common or another common anxiety roadblock around this idea that there will be hard days? Chris: There’s always these great images if you Google about what people think recovery will look like versus what recovery looks like. I love those images because there is this idea. We see a lot of perfectionism in anxiety disorders. In OCD, we see perfectionism. So, this idea of, like, I should be here and I should easily scoot to the end. It’s not going to be like that; it’s bumpy, it’s ups and downs. We know so much factors into or impact how our mental health disorder shows up. We can’t always control our triggers. Sometimes if we haven’t slept well or there’s a lot of change in our life, we could have more anxiety. So, it’s going to ebb and flow.  So, when we have this fixed mindset of like, it has to be perfect, there has to be absolutely no bumps on the road, no turbulence, we’re going to set ourselves up for failure because the day we have a hard day, we want to completely shut down. So I really believe, in this case, the solution is thinking bigger. If you’re thinking day to day, sometimes if you’re too in it, you’re dealing with depression, you’re really feeling bad, you skipped school because you have a presentation, social anxiety is acting up. You think bigger picture. Why am I here? Why am I doing this? Why have I sought out treatment? Listen to this podcast. What am I trying to accomplish?  SOLUTION #2: KNOW YOUR WHY I know for me in my own recovery, knowing my why was so important. There were certain things in my life that I found important to achieve, and I kept that as the figurative carrot in front of the mule to get me to go. So, that way, if I had a rough day, I thought bigger picture. What do I need to do today to make sure that I meet my goals? And so, I believe everybody needs to know their why.  Now, it doesn’t have to be grandiose. Some people want to build a school and teach kids in underprivileged countries. Amazing why. But other people are sometimes like, “I just want to be able to make my own choices today and not feel like I base them out of anxiety.” There’s no right or wrong why, but if you can know what beacon you’re going to, it really helps you get through those hard days.  What about for you? When we talk about this, what comes up for you? Kimberley: Well, I think that for me personally, the why is a really important mindset shift because often I can get to this sort of, like you said, perfectionistic why. Like, the goal is to have no anxiety, or the goal is to have no bad days. We see on social media these very relaxed people who just seem to go with the flow, and that’s your goal. But I have to often with myself do a little reality check and go, “Okay, are you doing recovery to get there? Because that goal might be setting you up for constant disappointment and failure. That mightn’t be your genetic makeup.”  I’m never going to be like the go-with-the-flow Kimberley. That’s just not who I am. But if I can instead shift it to the why of like, what do I value? What are the things I want to be able to do despite having anxiety in my life? Or, despite having a hard day, like you said, how do I want that to look? And once I can get to that imagery, then I have a really clear picture. So, when I do have a bad day, it doesn’t feel so defeating, like what’s the point I give up, because the goal was realistic. Chris: For me, a big part of my why in recovery, once I started getting into a place where I was managing the disorders I was dealing with—OCD, body dysmorphic disorder, I had a lot of generalized anxiety, and major depressive disorder—I was like, “I need to give back. There’s not people my age talking about this. There’s not enough treatment providers.” There was somewhere, like in the middle of my treatment, that I was like, “I don’t know how I’m going to advocate. I don’t know what that’s going to look like, but I have to give back.” And so, on those hard days when I would normally want to just like, “Well, I don’t care that it’s noon, I’m shutting it down, I’m going into my bed, I’m just going to sleep the rest of the day,” reminding myself like there’s people out there suffering that can’t find providers, that can’t find treatment, may not even know they have these disorders. I have to be one of the voices in the community that really advocates and gets people education and resources. And so, I didn’t let myself get in bed. I looked at the day as quarters. Okay, the morning and the afternoon’s a little rough, but I still have evening and night. Let me turn it around. I have to go because I have this big goal, this ambitious dream. I really want to do it. So that bigger why kept me just on track to push through hard days. ROADBLOCK #3: YOU RUN OUT OF STAMINA Kimberley: Amazing. I love that so much. All right. The third roadblock that we see is that people run out of stamina. I actually think this is one that really ties into what we were just talking about. Imagine we’re running a marathon. If you’re sprinting for the first 20 miles, you probably won’t finish the race. Or even if you sprint the first two miles, you probably won’t finish the marathon.  One of the things is—and actually, I’ll go straight to the strategy and the thing we want you to practice—we have to learn to pace ourselves throughout recovery. As I said, if you sprint the first few miles, you will fall flat on your face. You’re already dealing with so much. As you said, having a mental health struggle is the most exhausting thing that I’ve ever been through. It requires such of your attention. It requires such restraint from not engaging in it and doing the treatment and using the tools. It’s a lot of work, and I encourage and congratulate anyone who’s trying. The fact that you’re trying and you’re experimenting with what works and what doesn't, and you’re following your homework of your clinician or the workbook that you’ve used—that's huge. But pacing yourself is so important. So, what might that look like? Often, people, students of mine from CBT School, will say, “I go all out. I do a whole day of exposures and I practice response prevention, and I just go so hard that the next day I am wiped. I can’t get out of bed. I don’t want to do it anymore. It was way too much. I flooded myself with anxiety.” So, that’s one way I think that it shows up. I’ll often say, “Okay, let’s not beat yourself up for that.” We’ll just use that as data that that pace didn’t work. We want to find a rhythm and a pace that allow you to recover. It’s sort of like this teeter-totter. We call it in Australia a seesaw. You want to do the work, but not to the degree where you faceplant down on the concrete. We want to find that balance.  I know for me, when I was recovering from postural orthostatic tachycardic syndrome, which is a chronic illness that I had, it was so hard because the steps to recovery was exercise, but it was like literally walking to the corner and back first, and then walking half a block, and then walking three-quarters of a block, and then having my husband pick me up, then walking one block. And that’s all I was able to do without completely faceplanting the next day, literally and figuratively.  My mind kept saying to me, “You should be able to go faster. Everybody else is going faster. Everyone else can walk a mile or a block. So you should be able to.” And so, I would push myself too hard, and then I’d have to start all over again because I was comparing myself to someone who was not in my position.  SOLUTION #3: PACE YOURSELF So, try to find a pace that works for you, and do not compare your pace with me or Chris or someone in your support group, or someone you see on social media. You have to find and test a pace that works for you. Do you have any thoughts, Chris? Chris: Yeah. I would say in this one, and you alluded to it, that comparison, that is going to get you in this roadblock because you’re going to be looking to your left and your right. Why is that person my age working and I’m not? It’s not always comparing yourself. Sometimes, like you said, it is people in your support group. It’s people that you see advocating for the disorder you may have. But sometimes people even look at celebrities or they’ll look at friends from college, and can I do that? The comparison never motivates you, it never boosts you; it just makes you feel less than. That’s why one of my favorite quotes is, “Chase the dream, not the competition.” It’s really finding a timeline that works best for you.  I get why people have this roadblock. As somebody who’s lived through multiple mental health disorder diagnoses, it’s like, once we find the treatment, we want to escalate to the finish line, and we’ll push ourselves in treatment sometimes too much. And then we have one of those days where we can’t even get out of bed because we’re just beat up, we’re exhausted, and it’s counterproductive.  I wanted to add one thing too. The recovery part may not even be what you’re doing with your clinician in a session that you are not pacing yourself with. My biggest pacing problem was after recovery, not that the disorders magically went away, they were in remission, I was working on doing great, but it was like, I went to martial arts, tennis, learned Spanish, started volunteering at an animal shelter, went back to school, got a job, started dating. It was so much. Because I felt like I was behind, I needed to push myself.  The problem that started to happen was I was focusing less on the enjoyable process of dating or getting a job, or going back to school. I was so fixated on the finish line. “I need to be there, I need to be there. What’s next? What’s next?” I got burnt out from that, and I was not enjoying anything I was doing.  So, I would say even after you’re managing your disorder, be careful about not pacing yourself, even in that recovery process of getting back into the lifestyle that you want. Kimberley: Yeah, absolutely. I would add too, just as a side point, anyone who is managing a mental health issue or an anxiety disorder, we do also have to fill our cup with the things that fill our hearts. I know that sounds very cliche and silly, but in order to pace ourselves and to have the motivation and to use the skills, we do have to find a balance of not just doing all the hard things, but making sure you schedule time to rest and eat and drink and see friends if that fills your cup, or read if that fills your cup. So, I think it’s also finding a rhythm and a balance of the things that fill your cup and identifying that, yes, recovery is hard. It will deplete your stores of energy. So, finding things that fill that cup for you is important.   Chris: Well, you just made a good point too. In my recovery, all those things you mentioned, I thought of those as like weakness, like I just wasted an hour reading. Sometimes even with friends. That one, not as much, because I saw value in friendship. But if I just watched a movie or relaxed, or even just hung out with friends, it felt like a waste. I’m like, “How dare I am behind everybody else? I should be working. I should be this. I should move up.” A lot of should statements, a lot of perfectionist expectations of myself.  So, the goal for me or the treatment for me wasn’t to then go to the other extreme and just give up everything; it was really to ask myself, like you said, how can I fill my cup in ways that are important and see value and getting a breakfast burrito with a friend and talking for three hours and not thinking like, “Oh, I should have been this because I got to get my degree.” I’m glad that you brought that up. I always think of like we’re overflowing our cup with mental health conditions. We have to be able to have those offsets that drain the cup so we have a healthy balance. So, a great point. ROADBLOCK #4: NOT OWNING YOUR RECOVERY Kimberley: I agree. So important. Would you tell us about owning your recovery? Because you have a really great story with this. Chris: Yeah. People ask me all the time how I got better. A lot of people with body dysmorphic disorder struggle to get better. Obviously, we know that with obsessive-compulsive disorder, major depressive disorder, et cetera. So, a lot of people will ask sometimes, and I always say to them, if I had to come up with one thing, it was because I made my mental health recovery number one. I felt that it was like the platform that I was building my whole life on. I’m so bad with the-- what is it? The house, the-- I’m not a builder.  Kimberley: Like the foundation. Chris: Thank you. Clearly, I’m not going to be making tools tomorrow or making things with tools. But yeah, like a house has to have a nice foundation. You would never build a house on a rocky side of the mountain. And so, I had to give up a lot, like most of us do, as we start to get worse. I became housebound and I dropped out of college, and I gave up a job. I was working in the entertainment industry, and I really enjoyed it. I was going to film school, and I was happy. I had to give all that up because I couldn’t even leave my house because of the disorder.  SOLUTION #5: MAKE YOUR RECOVERY THE MOST IMPORTANT THING So, when I was going to treatment and I was really starting to see it work, I was clear to that finish line of what I needed to do. So I made it the most important thing. It wasn’t just me; it was my support system. My treatment was about a four-hour round trip from my house, so my mom and I would meet up every day. We drive up to LA. I go to my OCD therapist, and I’d go to my psychiatrist and then my BDD therapist and support group, and then come home. There’s times I was exhausted, I wanted to give up, I was over it, but I never ever, ever put it to number two or three. I almost had this top three list in my head, and number one was always my recovery. My mom too, I mean, when she talks, she’ll always say it's the most important thing. If my job was going to fire me because I couldn’t come in because I had to take my kid on Wednesdays to treatment, I was going to get fired and find a new job. We just had to make this important.   As I was getting better, there were certain opportunities that came back to me from my jobs or from school. My therapist and I and my mom just decided, “Let’s hold off on this. Let’s really, really put effort into the treatment. You’re doing so well.” One of the things that I see all the time, my mom and I run a very successful family and loved ones group. A lot of times, the parents aren’t really making it the priority for their kids or the kids, or the people with the disorders aren’t really making it a priority. It’s totally understandable if there’s things like finances and things, barriers. But that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about when people have access to those things, they’re just not owning it. Sometimes they’re not owning it because they’re not taking it seriously or not making it important. Or other times, people are expecting someone else to get them better.  I loved having a team. I didn’t have a big team. I came from nothing. It was a very small team. I probably needed residential or something bigger. I only really had my mom’s support, but we all leaned on each other. But I always knew it was me in the driver’s seat. At the end of the day, my therapist couldn’t save me, my mom couldn’t save me, they couldn’t come to my house and pull me out of bed or do an exposure for me, or have me go out in public during the daytime because of BDD. I had to be the one to do it. I could lean on them as support systems and therapists are there for, but at the end of the day, it was my choice. I had to do it. When my head hit the pillow, I had to make sure that I did everything I possibly could that day to recover.  When I took ownership, it actually gave me freedom. I wasn’t waiting for someone to come along. I wasn’t focusing on other things. I made it priority number one. I truly believe that that was the thing that got me better. Once again, didn’t have a lot of resources, leaned a lot on self-help books and stuff because I needed a higher level of care, but there was none and we couldn’t afford it. I don’t want anyone to hear this podcast and think, “Well, I can’t find treatment in my area.” That’s not what I’m saying. I’m just saying, whatever you have access to, own it, make it a priority, and definitely be in that leader’s seat because that’s going to be what’s going to get you better. Kimberley: Yeah, for sure. I think too when I used to work as a personal trainer, I would say to them, “You can come to training once a week, but that once a week isn’t going to be what crosses you across that finish line.” You know what I mean? It is the work you do in the other 23 hours of that day and the other seven days of the week. I think that is true. If you’re doing and you’re dabbling in treatment, but it’s not the main priority, that is a big reason that can hold you back. I think it’s hard because it’s not fair that you have to make it priority number one, but it’s so necessary that you do.  I really want to be compassionate and empathize with how unfair it is that you have to make this thing a priority when you see other people, again, making their social life their priority or their hobby their priority. It sucks. But this mindset shift, this recalibration of this has to be at the top. When it gets to being at the top, I do notice, as a clinician, that’s when people really soar in their recovery. Chris: Yeah. We had a very honest conversation with my BDD therapist, my OCD therapist, and my psychiatrist, and they’re like, “You need a higher level of care. We understand you can’t afford it. There’s also a lot of waiting lists.” They’re like, “You’re really going to have to put in the work in between sessions. You’re supposed to be in therapy every day.” We just couldn’t. All we can afford is once a week. They said, “Look, when you’re not in our session, you need to be the one.”  So, for instance, with depression, my psychiatrist is like, “Okay, you’re obviously taking the medication, but you need to get up at the same time every day. Open up all your blinds, go upstairs, eat breakfast on the balcony, get ready, leave the house from nine to five.” I didn’t have a job. “But you need to be out of the house. You need to be in nature. You need to do all these things.” I never wanted to, but I did it. Or with my OCD and BDD recovery, I didn’t want to go out in public. I felt like it looked horrendous. I felt like people were judging me, but I did. Instead of going to the grocery store at 2:00 in the morning, I was going at noon. When everyone’s there for OCD, it was like, I didn’t want to sit in public places. I didn’t want to be around people that I felt I could potentially harm.  My point is like every single day, I was doing work, I was tracking it, I was keeping track, and I had to do that because I needed to do that in order to get better based on the setup that I had.  I do want to also say a caveat. I always have the biggest empathy for people or sympathy for people that are a CEO of a company or like a parent and have a lot of children, or it’s like you’re busy working all day and you’re trying to balance stuff. I mean, the only good thing that came from being housebound is I didn’t have a lot of responsibilities. I didn’t have a family. I wasn’t running a company. I wasn’t working. So, I did have the free time to do the treatment. So, I have such sympathy for people that are parents or working at a company, or trying to start their own small business and trying to do treatment too. But I promise you, you don’t have to put your recovery first forever. Really dive into it, get to that place where you’re really, really stable. It’ll still be a priority, but then you will be a better parent, a better employee, a better friend once you’ve really got your mental health to a level that you can start to support others. You may need to support yourself first, like the analogy with a mask on the plane. ROADBLOCK #5: YOU HAVE A FIXED MINDSET Kimberley: Agreed. That’s such an important point. All right, we’re moving on to roadblock number five. This is yours again, Chris. Tell us about the importance of specific mindsets, particularly a fixed mindset being the biggest roadblock. Chris: One of the things that makes me the most sad about people having a mental health condition because of how insidious they are is it starts to have people lose their sense of identity. It has them start to almost re-identify who they are, and it becomes a very fixed mindset. So, if you have social anxiety or social phobia, it’s like, “Oh, I’m somebody that’s not good around people. I say embarrassing things. I never know what kind of conversation to lead with. I should probably just not be around people.” Or, let’s say generalized anxiety. “Deadlines really caused me too much strain. I can’t really go back to school.” BDD. “I’m an unattractive person. Nobody wants to date me. I’m unlovable.”   We get into these fixed mindsets and we start to identify with them, and inevitably, that person’s life becomes smaller and smaller and smaller. So, the more they identify with it, the more that they become isolated from others, and they have this very fixed mindset. I think of like OCD, for instance, isn’t really about guidelines; it’s all about rules. This is how things are supposed to be. What happens is when I work with a client specifically, somebody that’s pretty severe, it’s trying to get them to see the value in treatment and to even tap into their own personal values is really difficult. It’s like, “Treatment doesn’t work. I’ve tried all the medications. I don’t know what I’m going to do. I’m just not somebody that can get better.” SOLUTION #5: GROWTH MINDSET What I tell clients instead is, “Let’s be open. Let’s be curious. Let’s move into a growth mindset. Let’s focus on learning, obtaining education, being open to new concepts. Look, when you were younger and the OCD didn’t really attack you, or when you were younger and you didn’t deal with social anxiety, you were having friends, you had birthday parties, you were going to school, and everything. Maybe that’s the real you, and it’s not that you lost it. You just have this disorder that’s blocked you from it.” And so, when clients become open and curious and willing to learn, willing to try new things, and to get out of their comfort zone, that’s where the growth really happens.  If you’re listening to this podcast or watching it right now and you’re determined like, “This isn’t working; nothing can help me,” that fixed mindset is never something that’s going to get you from where you are to where you want to be. You have to have that growth, that learning, that trying new things, expanding.  I always tell clients, “If you try something with your therapist and it doesn’t work, awesome. That’s one other thing that doesn’t work. Move on to something else.” That openness. What I always love after treatment is people are like, “I am social. I do love to be around people. I am somebody who likes animals. I just was avoiding animals because of harm thoughts.” People start to get back into who they really are as soon as they start to be more open to recovery. Kimberley: Yeah, for sure. The biggest fixed mindset thought that I hear is, “I can’t handle it.” That thought alone gets in the way of recovery so many times. We go to do an exposure, “I can’t handle this.” Or, “What if I have a panic attack? I cannot handle panic attacks.” It’s so fixed. So I often agree with you. I will often say, this work, this mental health work, or this human work that we do is shifting the way we see ourselves and life as an experiment. We always have these black-and-white beliefs like “I can’t handle this” or “I can’t do this. I can’t get in an elevator. I can’t speak public speaking,” or whatever it might be. But let’s be curious. Like you said, let’s use it as an experiment. Let’s try, and we’ll see. Maybe it doesn’t go great. That’s okay, like you said, but then we know we have data, and then we have information on what got in the way, and we have some information.  I think that even just being able to identify when you’re in a fixed mindset can be all you need just to be like, “Oh, okay, I’m having a very black-and-white fixed mindset.” Learning how to laugh and giggle at the way our brain just gets so determined and black-and-white, like you can’t do this, as you said, I think is so important because, like you said, once you get to recovery, then you go on to live your life and actually do the things that you dream, the dream that you’re talking about. It might be you want to get a master’s degree or you might want to go for a job, or you want to go on a date. You’re going to be able to use that strong mindset for any situation in life. It applies to anything that you’re going to conquer.  I always say to clients, if you’ve done treatment for mental health, you are so much more prepared than every student in college because they haven’t gone through, they haven’t had to learn those skills. Chris: Yeah, no, exactly. I remember like my open mindset was one of the assets I had in recovery. I remember going to therapy and being like, “I’m just going to listen. These people clearly know what they’re doing. They’ve helped people like me. Why would it be any different?” And I was open. I can see the difference with clients that have a more growth mindset. They come in, they’re scared. They’re worried. They’ve been doing something for 10, 15, 16 years, and they’re like, “Why is this guy going to tell me to try to do different things or to think different or have different thinking patterns?” But they’re open. I always see those people hit that finish line first. It’s the clients that come and shut down. The family system has been supporting this like learned helplessness. Nobody really wants to rock the boat. Everything shut down and closed. It’s like prying it open, as most of the work. And then we finally get to the work, but we could have gotten there quicker. Everybody’s at their own pace, but I really hope that people hear this, though, are focused on that openness. You were talking about like people thinking they can’t handle it. The other thing I hear sometimes is people just don’t think they deserve it. “I just don’t even deserve to get better.” You do. You do. That’s what I love about my job the most. Everybody that comes into my office, and I’m like, “You deserve a better life than you’re living. Whatever it is you want to do. You want to be a vet. How many animals are you going to save just by getting into being a vet? You got to do it.” My heart breaks a little bit when people have been dealing with mental health for long enough that they start to believe they don’t even deserve to get better.  SOLUTION #6: IT’S A BEAUTIFUL DAY TO DO HARD THINGS Kimberley: I love that. So, we had five roadblocks, and we’ve covered it, but we promised six strategies. I want to be the one to deliver the last one, which everyone who listens already knows what I’m going to say, but I’m going to say it for the sake that it’s so important for your recovery, which is, it’s a beautiful day to do hard things. It is so important that you shift, as we talked about in the roadblock number one, you shift your mindset away from “I can’t do hard things” to “It’s okay to do hard things.” It doesn’t mean you’ve failed. Life can be hard.  I say to all my patients, life is 50/50 for everybody. It’s 50% easy and 50% hard. I think some people have it harder than others. But the ones who seem to do really well and have that grit and that survivor’s mindset are the ones who aren’t destroyed by the day when it is hard. They’re willing to do the hard thing. They’re okay to march into uncertainty. They’re willing to do the hard thing for the payoff. They’re willing to take a short-term discomfort for the long-term relief or the long-term payout. I think that mindset can change the game for people, particularly if you think of it like a marathon. Like, I just have to be able to finish this marathon, I’m going to do the hard thing, and think of it that way. There’ll be hills, there’ll be valleys, there’ll be times where you want to give up, but can I just do one hard thing and then the next hard thing, and then the next hard thing? Do you have any thoughts on that? Chris: I’m glad that this is the message that you put out there. I’d say, obviously, when I think of Kim Quinlan as a friend, I think of other things and all the fun we’ve had together. But as a colleague, I always think of both. Obviously, self-compassion. But this idea of it’s a beautiful day to do hard things, I like it because we’ve always talked about doing hard things as this negative thing before you came along, and by adding this idea of it’s a beautiful day. When I look at all the hard things I did in my own recovery, or I see clients do hard things, there’s this feeling of accomplishment, there’s this feeling of growth, there’s this feeling of greatness that we get. Just like you were saying, beyond the mental health conditions that I dealt with, when I start getting into real life after the mental health conditions now are more in recovery, every time I choose to do hard things, there’s always such a good payoff. I was convinced I would never be able to get through school and get a degree and become a licensed therapist because I struggled with school with my perfectionism. It was difficult for me to get back in there and to humble myself and say, “Hey, you may flop and fail.” But now I’m a licensed therapist because of that willingness to do hard things.  I could give a plethora of examples, but I want people to hear that doing hard things is your way of saying, “I believe in myself. I trust myself that I can accomplish things, and I’m going to tap into my support system if I need to, but I am determined, determined, determined to push myself to a level that I may not think I can.” I love when clients do that, and they always come in, they’re like, “I’m so proud of myself, I can’t wait to tell you what I did this weekend.” I love that. So, always remember hard things come with beautiful, beautiful, beautiful outcomes and accomplishments. Kimberley: Yeah. I think the empowerment piece, when clients do scary, hard things, or they feel their hard feelings, or they do an exposure, they’ll often come in and be like, “I felt like I could do anything. I had no idea about the empowerment that comes from doing hard things.” I think we’ve been trained to think that if we just avoid it, we then will feel confident and strong, but it’s actually the opposite. The most empowered you’ll ever feel is right after you’ve done a really, really hard thing, even if it doesn’t go perfectly. Chris: Yeah, and so much learning comes out of it. That’s why I always tell clients too, going back to one of our first roadblocks, beating yourself up prevents the learning. Let’s say you try something and it doesn’t go well. I was talking to a colleague of ours who I really, really like. She was telling me how her first treatment center failed. Now she’s doing really well for herself down in San Diego. She’s like, “I just didn’t know things, and I just did things wrong, and I learned from it, and now I’m doing well.”  It’s like, whenever we look at something not going the way we’d like as an opportunity to learn and collect data, it just makes us that much better when we try it the other time. A lot of times these anxiety disorders were originally before treatment, hopefully trying to find ways to avoid our way through life—tough words—and trying to figure out, like, how can I always be small and avoid and still get to where I want to be? When people hear this from your podcast—it’s a beautiful day to do hard things—I hope that they recognize that you don’t have to live an avoidant lifestyle, an isolated lifestyle anymore. Really challenging yourself and doing hard things is actually going to be so rewarding. It’s incredible what outcomes come with it. Kimberley: Amazing. Well, Chris, thank you so much for doing this with me again. We finally stamped it into the podcast, which makes me so happy. Tell us where people can hear about you, get in contact with you, and learn more about what you do. Chris: I am really active in the International OCD Foundation. I’m one of their board members. I also am one of their lead advocates, just meeting as somebody with the disorder. I speak on it. Then I lead some of their special interest groups. The Body Dysmorphic Disorder Special Interest Group is one of them, but I lead about four of them. One of their affiliates, OCD Southern California, I am Vice President of OCD SoCal and a board member. We do a lot of events here locally that Kim is part of, but also some virtual events that you could be a part of. And then, as a clinician, I’m a licensed clinician in Costa Mesa, California. I currently work at The Gateway Institute. You can find me either by email at my name, which is never easy to spell. So, ChrisTrondsen@GatewayOCD.com, or the best thing is on social media, whether it’s Instagram, Facebook, or X, I guess we’re calling it now. Just @christrondsen. You could DM me. I always like to hear from people and get people’s support, and anything I can do to support people. I always love it. Kimberley: Oh my gosh, you’re such a light in the community, truly. A light of hope and a light of wisdom and knowledge. I want to say, because I don’t tell you this enough as your friend and as your colleague, thank you, thank you for the hope that you put out there and the information you put out there. It is so incredibly helpful for people. So, thank you. Chris: I appreciate that. I forgot to say one thing real quick. Every first, third, and fourth Wednesday of the month at 9 a.m. Pacific Standard Time on the IOCDF, all of their platforms, including iocdf.org/live, I do a free live stream with Dr. Liz McIngvale from Texas, and we have great guests like Kim Quinlan on, so please listen. But thank you for saying that. I always try to put as much of myself in the community, and you never know if people are receiving it well. <!-- /wp:paragraph --> <!-- wp:paragraph --> I want to throw the same thing to you. I mean, this podcast has been incredible for so many. I always play some of this stuff for my clients. A lot of clients are looking for podcasts. So, thanks for all that you do. I’m really excited about this episode because I think it’s something that we touch so many people. So, now to share it on a bigger scale, I’m excited about it. But thank you for your kind words. You’re amazing. It’s all mutual. <!-- /wp:paragraph --> <!-- wp:paragraph --> Kimberley: Thank you. You’re welcome back anytime. <!-- /wp:paragraph --> <!-- wp:paragraph --> Chris: And we’re going to get Greek food soon. It’s funny [inaudible] I’m telling you. It’s life-changing. Thanks, Kim. Listen to other episodes. <!-- /wp:paragraph --> <!-- wp:paragraph --> Kimberley: Thank you. <!-- /wp:paragraph -->

Welcome back, everybody. This is Part 2 of Your 2024 Mental Health Plan, and today we are going to talk about the specific tools that you need to supercharge your recovery. This podcast is called Your Anxiety Toolkit. Today, we are going to discuss all the tools that you are going to have in your tool belt to use and practice so that you can get to the recovery goals that you have. Let’s go. For those of you who are here and you’re ready to get your toolkit, what I encourage you to do first is go back to last week and listen to Part 1 of this two-part series, which is where we do a mental health recovery audit. We go through line by line and look at a bunch of questions that you can ask yourself, journal them down, and find specifically what areas of recovery you want to work on this year.  Now, even if you’re listening to this as a replay and it’s many years later, that’s fine. You can pick this up at any point. This episode and last week’s episode actually came from me sitting down a few weeks ago and actually going, “Okay, Kimberley, you need to catch up and get some things under control here.” You can do this at any time in a month from now or a year from now. We’re here today to talk about tools, so let’s get going.  First, we looked at, when we did our audit, the general category. The general question was, how much distress are you under? How much time is it taking up, and how do you feel or what are your thoughts about that distress? That is a very important question. Let’s just start there. That is an incredibly important question because how you respond to your distress is a huge indicator of how much you will suffer.  If you have anxiety and your response is to treat it like it’s important, try to get it to go away, and spend your time ruminating and wrestling, you’re going to double, triple, quadruple your suffering. You’re already suffering by having the anxiety, but we don’t want to make it worse.  If you’re having intrusive thoughts and you respond to them as if they’re important and need to be solved, again, we’re going to add to our suffering. If you have grief, shame, or depression and you’re responding to that by adding fuel to the fire, by adding negative thoughts, or by saying unkind things to yourself, you’re going to feel worse. How do you respond?  WILLINGNESS Tool #1 you’re going to need in this category is willingness. When you identify that you’re having an emotion, how willing are you to make space for that emotion? I’m not saying give it your attention; I’m saying, are you willing to just allow it to be there without wrestling it, trying to make it go away? Are you willing to normalize the emotion? Yeah, it makes complete sense that I’m having a hard time, or that all humans have these emotions. How willing can you be?  Often, what I will ask my patients is, out of 10, if 10 being the highest, how willing are you? We’re looking for eights, nines, and tens here. If you’re at like a six, seven, that’s okay. Let’s see if we can get it up to the eights, nines, and tens.  VALUES OVER FEAR Another tool (Tool #2) is respond with values, not fear or emotion. We want to work at being very clear on what our values are, what is important to us. Because if we don’t, emotions will show up. They will feel very, very real. When they feel very, very real, you’re likely to respond to them as if they’re real. Again, adding fuel to the fire, adding to the suffering. Instead, we want to respond with values.  If you have fear, you’re going to ask yourself, do I want to respond based on what fear is telling me, or my values, my beliefs, the principles, the things that are important to me? If you’re depressed, do you want to respond based on what depression is telling you to do? Like, "Give up, it’s hopeless, there’s no point." Or do you want to get back in touch with what matters to you? What would you do if depression wasn’t here? What would you do if anxiety was not here?  The third tool I’m going to give you, and this is a huge one—I’m going to break it down into different categories—is mindfulness. Now, if you’ve been here on Your Anxiety Toolkit, you already know that I think mindfulness is the most important tool, one of the most important tools you will have in your tool belt. You should be using it in your tool belt every day. It’s like if you actually had a tool belt, it’d be like the hammer, the thing you probably use the most.  Mindfulness involves four things, and this is the way I want you to think about it.  MINDFULNESS Number one, it’s awareness. Mindfulness is being present and aware of what is happening to you internally. Being able to identify, I feel sad, I feel anxious, I notice uncertainty, I’m noticing I’m having thoughts about A, B, and C. That awareness can help you stay in line with your values, but stay present enough to respond wisely.  Mindfulness is also presence. I’ve already given you that word. It’s being in the here and now. Fear always wants us to look into the future; mindfulness is being in the here and now. Depression often always wants us to look at the past and ruminate on the past and what went wrong or what will potentially go wrong in the future; mindfulness is only tending to the here and now, what’s actually happening.  When I’m anxious and I become present in my body, I realize that the thing that I’m afraid of hasn’t happened yet. If it is happening, if the thing that I’m afraid of is happening, then I can still go, “Okay, what’s happening in the present? How can I relate to it?” As we’ve discussed in earlier tools, how can I relate to it in a way that doesn’t add to my suffering? Can I make some space for it? Can I be willing to have it? Can I respond with values? Really getting present in this moment will give you some space to act very skillfully.  NON-JUDGMENT The next mindfulness tool is non-judgment. We have to be non-judgmental. Often, when I’m with my patients or with my students, they will often say, “I’m having anxiety, and it is bad and wrong, and I’m wrong for having it, and it shouldn’t be here.” All of that is a judgment.  I often bring them back to the fact that anxiety, while yes, it is uncomfortable, it is neutral. Let me say that again. Anxiety, while it is uncomfortable—it’s not fun—it is neutral. It is neither good nor bad. It just is your present experience. This work becomes how willing are you to feel discomfort. How willing are you to widen your distress tolerance for this thing that you’re experiencing, and how can you practice not judging it as bad?  The thing to remember is, if you have an emotion, a sensation, or a thought, and you appraise it as bad, your brain will remember that for next time. So next time you have it, it will more likely send out a bunch of cortisol and adrenaline and a bunch of stress hormones when you have that emotion, that sensation, or that thought. And that’s how we can break this cycle by practicing non-judgment.  WISDOM AND INSIGHT The fourth piece of mindfulness that I want you to consider is wisdom and insight. This is not a typical mindfulness tool, I would say, but it’s an important piece of our work. When we have mental struggles, when we have emotional struggles, it’s very easy to fall into the trap of believing our thoughts and our feelings, going into that narrative, and getting into that story. When we do that, again, we make things worse. We tend to act on those emotions and that distress instead of our values. A lot of mindfulness, if you can practice being present, if you can practice being aware, if you can practice being non-judgmental, you then get to be steady in wisdom. You get to check the facts and respond according to the facts and the reality. You get to be level in how you respond. It doesn’t mean your anxiety will go away. It just means that you’re thinking in a way where you can make decisions. You’re connected to your prefrontal cortex, where you can make good decisions for yourself, not just respond to the emotions that you’re having. That’s sort of like a bigger picture, but that’s sort of more like the result of practicing mindfulness.  When we last week went through the audit of your mental health recovery, we also addressed safety behaviors. Now these were avoidance, reassurance seeking, mental compulsions, physical compulsions, and there is a fifth one, but we’ll talk about that later. We really went through and thoroughly investigated, did an audit, did an inventory of how many of these behaviors and what specific behaviors you do. Again, if you didn’t listen to that episode, go back and look at that because it will help you put together a really good inventory of what’s going on for you. Now, I want to address a couple of things when it comes to these. If you’re someone who does a lot of avoidance, I’m going to strongly encourage you to use Tool #4, which is find ways to face your fear. Identify all the things that you are afraid of and you’re avoiding, and find creative ways to face your fear and make it fun. If you’re afraid of something, try to find ways to make it fun that line up with your values. If you’re afraid of airplanes but love to travel, pick a place when you first start this that you’re interested in going to. Have it be something that you have been wanting to go to for a long time. Do it with someone you enjoy doing it with. If it’s something miscellaneous around the house, include the people around you, make it fun, put the music on that you want. You’re not doing that to take the discomfort away; you’re doing it so that it’s so deeply based on your values, so deeply based on what’s important to you, and purposely every day, find ways to face your fears.  Now, if you have OCD specifically and you want help with this, we have a full, comprehensive course called ERP School. If you go to CBTSchool.com, you can get access to that, and it will take you step by step on how to do that for OCD.  If you have generalized anxiety or panic disorder, we have a step-by-step process for how you can do that. It’s called overcoming anxiety and panic.  If you have depression, we actually have a whole comprehensive course for depression as well on how you can face the depression, how you can undo the way that depression has you avoiding things and procrastinating, and how it’s demotivating you. That course is there for you as well at CBT School.  If you’re someone who struggles with mental compulsions, we actually have a free six-part mental compulsion series here on Your Anxiety Toolkit. It’s completely free. I’ll leave the links for that in the show notes below. But that will help you walk through it with six amazing clinicians from around the world, like the best ones that we can get, talking specifically about different ways to manage mental compulsions. But it does involve a lot of the tools we’ve already talked about—a lot of mindfulness, a lot of facing your fear, a lot of willingness, a lot of awareness. These are things that you can be using specifically to interrupt those safety behaviors. Now, another tool (Tool #5) is distress tolerance, because as you face your fear, you’re going to have some uncomfortable feelings. Distress tolerance is an opportunity for you to lean into that discomfort a little more. It’s very skill-based. Let me give you a couple of ideas.  BEGINNERS MIND Number one would be this idea of a beginner’s mind. Usually, when we’re uncomfortable, our natural human instinct is to get out of here. Like, “Let’s go. I don’t want to be here. I don’t want to feel it. Let’s run away.” Another instinct is to fight. Like, “Oh, I want to wrestle with it.”  Beginner’s mind is the opposite of that. It’s the practice of being curious. We actually have a whole podcast episode on beginner’s mind. Think of it like you’re a baby. I always say, imagine you’re like one or two and you hand the baby a set of keys. Now, if you handed a set of keys to an adult, they’d be like, “Yeah, that’s keys.” They wouldn’t really stop to look at the keys. But if you give it to the baby, they’re so curious, they’re so open-minded, and they look at the keys like I’ve never seen these. They’re shiny, but they’re hard, but they’re bumpy. They have these round things. What do you do with them? I’ll put them in my mouth. What do they taste like? What do they feel like? They’re so willing to see these keys as if it’s the first time they’ve ever seen them because it's the first time they’ve ever seen them.  As adults, we have to practice being curious, just like that. When we’re uncomfortable, we can be curious instead of nonjudgmental and go, “Okay, let’s be curious about this. What does it feel like? I wonder what it’s like if I’m willing to feel it. How long does it last? Can I let it be there? I wonder what will happen if I let it be there and go and do this or face the fear.” Let’s be curious instead of having a fixed mindset of, “I can’t feel this. I can’t handle it. I don’t want to,” and so forth. Beginner’s mind is very important in helping you relearn the perceived stress or the perceived danger of a certain thing.  Another really important distress tolerance skill is radical acceptance. Radical acceptance is a sort of badass response to fear and emotions by going, “Bring it. Let’s have it. It’s here. There’s nothing I can do. Trying to stop it only makes things worse. And so I’m committed to radically accepting it being here.” Then you can go on to use other tools like your values and willingness, ERP, CBT, and any of those. You can use any of those skills. But you’re coming from a place of just radically accepting that it’s there.  UNCERTAINTY Another distress tolerance skill is to be uncertain on purpose. “Bring it on.” If you have anxiety, you’re going to have uncertainty anyway. Bring it on. Let’s let it be there. Let’s make another relationship with uncertainty—one that’s not stressful and one where it’s like, I’m allowing it to be there. I actually have some mastery over it because I’ve practiced letting it be there before, and I tolerated it then, and I’m sure I’ll tolerate it again.  Remember here, you have gotten through 100% of the hard things in your life. You can do it again, and each time we can make this 1% improvement in how skillful we are in response to it. SELF-KINDNESS AND SELF-COMPASSION The next category that we had in the audit was kindness. We talked about questions such as, how do you treat yourself throughout the day? How kind are you? Do you punish yourself for having emotional struggles? And of course, you guys know this is number six, which is self-compassion. We know that self-punishment doesn’t work. In fact, it makes us feel worse.  Self-compassion is the practice of making you a safe place to have any emotion, any discomfort, have any thought, have any anxiety. You’re willing to have them all, and you’re going to promise yourself and commit to yourself that you’ll be gentle with yourself no matter what. That’s the work.  Truly, so many of you have said that you’ve been working on that, and you’ve actually made huge strides in that area. We have so much content on Your Anxiety Toolkit on self-compassion. I’d encourage you to go back and listen to any of those. This year I’m going to really heavily emphasize this work, but I really want you to really consider creating a safe place for you to have any emotion, any intrusive thought, any feeling, any discomfort at all, any pain, so that you know that you’re always in a safe place to have those feelings.  MINDSET  The last category of the audit that we did last week was on mindset. We asked questions like, how willing are you to experience these emotional struggles? When you wake up, what’s the thing you think? Do you think, “Oh no, I can’t handle it, this is going to be terrible, I hope I don’t have any anxiety today, I hope my emotions don’t come or I hope I don’t have any thoughts”? Or do you have a more positive outlook of the day?  Now, we already talked about willingness. It was one of the first tools that we used. But here, I want you to consider the idea of being positive. Now, I’m not saying positive like, “Oh no, my bad things won’t happen,” or “No, I’m not a bad person, and my fears won’t come true.” That’s not what I’m talking about being positive. I’m talking about remind yourself of your strengths. That is a tool.  Being complementary and positive is a tool that we don’t use enough. We spend all the time thinking about the worst-case scenario, and we very rarely take time to really think, “I’m actually pretty strong. I’ve actually handled a lot. I’m actually very, very resilient.” Is it possible that you do that too? What can we do to get you to see yourself the way I see you?  Often, I’ll say to clients, “Oh my gosh, you’re doing so well.” And they’ll be like, “Oh, I kind of am, you’re right.” Or I’ll say, “Wow, look at how you got through that really hard thing.” And they’re like, “No, it’s not a big deal; everyone can do it.” But I’m like, “No, you did that.”  CELEBRATE YOUR WINS  Please practice being positive towards yourself, having positive regard for yourself, celebrating your wins, thinking positive about your strengths, not just focusing on your weaknesses.  Now Tool #8, we all know. I say it every single week, which is it’s a beautiful day to do hard things. When we wake up and we think, “Oh no, I don’t want bad things to happen,” we become a victim. What we want to do is we want to stand up and say, “Today is a really beautiful day to do really freaking hard things, and I’m going to practice doing those.” I want you to think of #8 as a motto, a mantra that you can take with you everywhere. “It is a beautiful day to do hard things.” We don’t need perfect conditions to do hard things either. We don’t need motivation to do hard things. Sometimes we just have to do them, whether we’re motivated or not. And then we see the benefit. We don’t have to wait until you have the right thought, the right feeling, or the right situation.  Often, I’ll catch myself like, “Oh, I had a little bit of an argument with my husband. No, I’m not going to do hard things today.” No, that’s the day to go do the hard thing. Do it because it’s what brings you closest to your recovery. It brings you closest to the goals that you have.  TIME MANAGEMENT Now, Tool #9 is time management. When you wake up in the morning, if dread is the first thing on your mind, time management will help. We have a whole course on CBTSchool.com on time management, and what it is about is teaching you a few core things. Number one, schedule your recovery homework first because it has to be the priority. It has to be. Secondly, schedule fun time first. Don’t schedule work. Don’t schedule your chores. Make sure you’re prioritizing these things because recovery requires rest, it requires fun, it requires lightness and brightness, and fulfillment. Doing these hard things takes up a lot of energy, so any way you can, even if it’s for two minutes, manage your time so that you have set in your calendar, set a reminder, the time where you’re going to do the things that you need to do to get your recovery on its way. Prioritize it.  We have a whole course called Time Management for Optimum Mental Health. You can get it at CBTSchool.com, and it really outlines how you can do this and how you can practice prioritizing these things, which brings us to Tool #10, which is find a community of people who are doing the same things as you.  I get it, everyone on Instagram looks like they’re having a jolly time and their life is easy. The truth is, no, they’re not. Find the people who are also struggling with similar adversity. You could go to CBT School Campus, which is a Facebook group we have. On social media, there are so many amazing advocates sharing what it’s like to be doing this work. Come on over and follow me on Instagram at Your Anxiety Toolkit, where I talk a lot about this all the time. There is a community of people who make the most gorgeous comments and are so supportive and encouraging. FIND COMMUNITY Find a community, because if you feel like you’re the only one who’s struggling, it makes it really, really hard. Just know that you’re not alone and that other people are going through hard things. They might not be going through exactly what you’re going through, but this community is filled with millions of listeners. There are other people who are struggling too, so try to find them. Use them as accountability buddies. Touch base with them.  My best friend and I meet once a week, fire the phone, and check in. How are you doing? What are you doing well with? How are you doing with the goals you set for last week? Try to find someone, if you can, who can be your accountability buddy. If not, maybe ask a loved one or a friend who might be willing to do that.  There are the 10 tools that I want you to have in your toolkit. You’re not going to use them all the time. You’re not even going to be good at them. I’m even willing to say you’re going to suck at using them, and that is okay. I suck at using these sometimes too. This is not about perfection; this is about pausing, looking at the problem, asking yourself, which of these tools would be most helpful right now? And be curious. Again, use your beginner’s mind. Be curious about trying them, experimenting, giving yourself a lot of celebration in the fact that you tried.  Again, this doesn’t have to be perfect. We make 1% improvements over here. That’s all I’m looking for—a 1% improvement. Is there something you can do today that will get you 1% closer to your recovery goal? If that is possible, go for it. Give it your best. You will not regret it. I’ve never once had someone regret moving towards their recovery. In fact, I’ve only seen people say, “I’m so grateful I did it.” Even though it might have been late, it’s never too late.  All right. Have a wonderful day. I know you can do this. I cannot wait for this year. I have so many things I want to talk to you about.  Have a wonderful day, and I’ll see you next week.

f you need a mental health plan for 2024, you are in the right place. This is a two-part series where we will do a full recovery audit. And then next week, we’re going to take a look at the key tools that you need for Your Anxiety Toolkit. We call it an anxiety toolkit here, so that's exactly what you’re here to get. The first step of this mental health plan for 2024 is to look at what is working and what isn’t working and do an inventory of the things that you’re doing, the safety behaviors, the behaviors you’re engaging in, and all the actions that you’re engaging in that are getting in the way of your recovery. Now what we want to do here is, once we identify them, we can break the cycle. And then we can actually start to have you act and respond in a very effective way so that you can get back to your life and start doing the things that you really, really wanted to do in 2023 but didn’t get to. If you’re listening to this in many years to come, same thing. Every year, we have an opportunity to do an audit—maybe even every month—to look at what’s working and what’s not. Let’s do it. Now, one thing I want you to also know here is this is mostly an episode for myself. A couple of weeks ago, I was not coping well. I consider myself as someone who has all the skills and all the tools, and I know what to do, and I’m usually very, very skilled at doing it. However, I was noticing that I was engaging in some behaviors that were very ineffective, that had not the best outcomes, and were creating more suffering for myself.  Doing what I do, being an anxiety specialist, and knowing what I know as a therapist, I sat down and I just wrote it all out. What am I engaging in? What’s the problem? Where am I getting stuck? And from there, naturally, I did a mental health audit. And I thought, to be honest with you, you guys probably need such a thing as well, so let’s do it together. Here is what I did. Let’s get started with this mental health audit that we’re going to do today.  FOUR RECOVERY AUDIT CATEGORIES  General Perspective  Safety Behaviors  Safety  Mindset  What we’re going to do is we’re going to break it down into four main categories. The first category is your general perspective of your mental health, your recovery, and your internal emotional experience.  The second category is the safety behaviors you’re engaging in. A safety behavior is a behavior that you do to reduce or remove your discomfort, to get a sense of safety, or to get a sense of control. Sometimes they’re effective, sometimes they’re not, and we’re going to go through that today.  The third category is actually just safety—looking at how safe you are inside your body with your internal experience. And I’ll explain a lot more of that here in a little bit, so let’s just move on to section number four, which is mindset. What is your mindset about recovery? And we’re going to go through this together.  LET’S PROMISE TO DO THIS KINDLY  As we move forward, I want you to promise me and vow to me as we do this. We are only doing it through the lens of being curious and non-judgmental. This audit should not be a disciplinary action where you wrap yourself over the knuckles and you beat yourself up, and you just criticize yourself for the fact that you’re not coping well. That is not what we’re doing here. WE ARE JUST GATHERING DATA We are ultimately just taking data. We’re just looking at the data of what’s working and what’s not. And then we get to decide what we do differently. And we get to be honest with ourselves about what’s actually happening from a place of compassion, from a place of understanding, knowing that we’re doing the best we can with what we’ve got. Again, I could beat myself up and be like, “You’re a therapist. You do this for a living. What is wrong with you?” But instead, I just recognize. Of course, you fell off the wagon. Things don’t always work out perfectly when you’re under a high amount of stress or when it’s the holidays, when things feel out of your control. We naturally gravitate to safety behaviors that often aren’t the most effective. That’s just the facts.  BE NON-JUDGMENTAL Let’s do this from a non-judgmental standpoint. We are literally just gathering data. How we handle this is a big part of recovery. Okay? Let’s do it.  YOUR RECOVERY AUDIT  Let’s first look at the first section of your recovery audit. This is a general category. We’re going to ask some questions. You can get a pen and notepad, or you could just listen and think about this, pause it, take some stock of what’s been going on for you. But I do strongly encourage you to pause, sit down, write your answers on a piece of paper, on a Google Doc, or whatever you love to do. All right, here we go.  GENERAL   Number one, generally, how much of the day do you experience anxiety, hopelessness, or some kind of emotional distress, whatever it is that you experience? You could give a percentage, a grade, or an amount of hours. How much of the day do you experience emotions that are out of your control? We’re only here to get data on how much this thing is impacting your life. You might say all day, every day. That’s okay. You might say, “A couple of hours every day that I experience panic,” or “A couple of hours every day I’m having intrusive thoughts.” It doesn't matter; just put it down. If you’re someone who has more depressive symptoms, you might say, “For six hours of the day, I experience pretty severe depression.” Whatever you’re experiencing, you can write it down.  The second question in this category is, what are your thoughts about the emotional distress that you just documented? What are your thoughts about them? If you have anxiety, are your thoughts “I shouldn’t have anxiety”? Because what we gather there is if for, let’s say, two hours a day, you’re having anxiety, but for four hours a day, you’re saying, “I shouldn’t have it. I’m bad for having it. What’s wrong with me? Something is wrong. I’m terrible,” and so forth, we want to understand, what are the specific thoughts you’re having about the emotional distress?  If you have OCD and you’re having a lot of intrusive thoughts, what are your thoughts about that? “Oh, my thoughts make me a bad person. Oh, my intrusive thoughts mean I must want to do the thing that I’m having thoughts about.” If you’re having depression, what are your thoughts about that? “Oh, I’ll never get better, that I’m weak for having this struggle, that I should be able to handle it better. I should be able to get out of bed and function normally.” We want to really understand your general mindset and perspective of what you’re going through.  Often, we spend a lot of time thinking about why we have the problem. Why do I have this? What’s wrong with me? What did I do wrong? Why is this happening? Was it my past? Was it something that happened to me? Spending a lot of time trying to figure out why. That’s the general category.  SAFETY BEHAVIORS The second category, safety behaviors, is probably one of the most important, but there is a good chance I’m going to say that about every category, so let’s just go through them.  The first question in safety behaviors is, how much of the day do you spend ruminating, thinking, going over and over the problem, trying to solve it? How many minutes, how many hours, or what percent of the day do you spend ruminating?  We’ve already identified how much of the day you spend with the original, initial problem. But how much of the time do you actually spend engaging in the behavior of mental compulsions, mental rumination, sort of that real stressful solving practice? Write it down. Again, we’re not judging here. Even if you wrote 100% of the day, all day, every day for a year or 10 years, it doesn’t matter, okay?  The next question in safety behaviors is, if you zoomed out and looked at your entire life, what is it that you are avoiding because of this internal emotional experience, whether it be anxiety, uncertainty, depression, grief, whatever it might be, panic? Whatever it is, what is it specifically that you’re avoiding?  Some people say, “I’m avoiding a certain street. I’m avoiding a certain person. I’m avoiding a certain event. I’m avoiding an emotion. I’m avoiding a feeling. I’m avoiding a thought. I’m avoiding a specific book on a specific bookshelf. I’m avoiding a specific movie on the internet or on TV. I’m avoiding a specific topic in every area of my life.” Be as specific as you can. What is it that you are avoiding to try and reduce or remove your distress inside your body? Document all of it.  I tell my patients, it doesn’t matter if this takes 17 pages; just document it down. Don’t judge yourself. Once we have the data, we can next week meet and work on a solution here. Or as you go through this, if you’ve already clearly identified that you have, let’s say, OCD, generalized anxiety, panic, or depression, we have specific courses on CBTSchool.com that will walk you through these and give you specific solutions to specific problems. That is there for you as well.  We will next week go through the main tools you’re going to need. But if you really want to target a specific issue, we may have a course specifically in that area that will help you. If not, there are other areas where you can get resources and therapy as well. But this is going to help you get really clear on what specifically is going on for you. What is it that you’re engaging in that’s getting in the way? The next safety behavior category is, how do you carry your body throughout the day? Are you hypervigilant? Are you tense? Are you rushing around? That was me. That’s when I was like, “Oh, Kimberley, you are going down the wrong channel.” Because I noticed in many areas of my day, I was rushing, trying to avoid some emotions, trying to check boxes, rushing around, hypervigilant, looking around, what bad thing is going to happen next. How are you carrying this in your body?  If you had an eating disorder, it might be, “I’m tensing my stomach and pulling it in and trying to not eat and trying to suppress hunger and thirst.” If that’s happening, okay, let’s document. If you’re having panic, are you squinting, pushing away thoughts, trying to avoid a sensation in your body? We want to get to know what is happening with our bodies. A patient of mine a couple of weeks ago said, “I just hold my breath all day. I really do. I probably take half the breath that someone without anxiety takes.” Write it down if you notice that’s what you’re doing in your body. Again, not your fault; we’re just here to look at the data.  The next category of safety behaviors is, how often do you seek reassurance per day? How often do you consult with Google to reduce your anxiety? How often do you ask family and friends questions about your fear to get a sense of certainty or to reduce your anxiety?  Sometimes this can be tricky. You might even just mention a topic to notice their facial expression to see how they respond, or you might report to them something that happened to see if they’re alarmed so that you then know whether you should be alarmed and engage in some behavior, worrying, ruminating, and so forth.  How often are you trying to get to the bottom of anxiety and you’re noticing that it’s repetitive, and over and over again, you’re getting stuck in these rabbit holes of Googling or asking friends and families, often asking them questions they don’t even know the answer to?  Often, our family members, because they love us, will give us an answer based on probability, but they actually don’t know. And therefore, your brain-- you’re very smart. I know this because all my clients with anxiety often in depression are. You’re very smart. You know they don’t know the answer, so your brain doesn’t compute it as a real certainty anyway. Your brain is going to immediately go, “Well, how do they know? They probably don’t know any better than I do,” and it’s going to want more and more questions to be asked. How often do you seek reassurance per day, or how much of the day do you spend seeking reassurance?  And then the last safety behavior here is physical behaviors. This is more common for folks with OCD, phobias, or health anxiety. What physical behaviors do you engage in? Meaning, do you rearrange things? Do you move things? Do you check things? Do you turn things on and off? Lock doors, unlock doors, lock them again. How much are you engaging in physical behaviors to reduce your anxiety?  Again, I will also say this is very true for generalized anxiety. Often, people with generalized anxiety disorder spend a lot of time just engaging in this high-level functioning of checking boxes, getting things done, always being the busiest person in the room. And while yes, that does get rewarded by our society because, “Oh, look at them go, they’re getting all the things done,” they’re doing it to avoid or remove discomfort or uncertainty. So we want to get a thorough documentation of all of those things. Again, do not beat yourself up if it’s a long list. Those will help us next week when we talk about tools.  KINDNESS AND SAFETY  We move on now to the third category, which is kindness and safety. And now we’re talking about how do you respond to yourself and your experience of anxiety. We also talked about this through the lens of safety. Safety is when you’re feeling uncomfortable, you’re having an emotion such as anxiety, grief, sadness, dread, anger. When you have those emotions, is your brain and body a safe place to allow those emotions to exist, or is it an unsafe place in that you push it away, judge yourself, tell it shouldn’t be there, rid it out, get rid of it, banish it, avoid it, abandon it, all the things?  Question #1: How do you treat yourself throughout the day? Out of 10, how kind are you to yourself? Really think about it. How do you treat yourself?  If you thought objectively about yourself as a friend, would you want yourself as a friend around? Probably not. Maybe you’ve been listening to Your Anxiety Toolkit for some time and you’ve already really developed these skills, but really, really honestly, how kind are you to yourself? If you were another friend, would you invite yourself over? Probably not because you wouldn’t invite a friend over who’s like, “What is wrong with you? You’re crazy. You shouldn’t be doing that. You’re so silly. Why are you spending all this time? You’re lazy. You’re dumb. You’re stupid for asking these questions.” So really think about that.  The second question is, do you punish yourself for having these emotional struggles? And if so, how? Do you blame yourself? Do you shame yourself? Do you engage in a lot of guilt behavior, guilting yourself for these behaviors? Do you withhold pleasure from yourself?  I’ve had so many clients tell me that they will not allow themselves to have the nice toilet paper, and they get themselves the scratchy, one-ply toilet paper because of their intrusive thoughts or because they’re depressed and they don’t check the boxes that their friends on Instagram have checked. Therefore, they don’t deserve the nice shampoo, or they don’t deserve nice sheets, or they don’t deserve to rest. They basically punish themselves for their emotional struggles, and we don’t want to do that.  I know you know this already, but we want to know specifically. Do an inventory. Give yourself some days here to really do a thorough audit of what’s going on in your life. You might find that you don’t eat or you eat foods that aren’t delicious. One thing in my eating disorder recovery was, let’s really try to eat foods that are genuinely delicious. And if it’s not delicious, don’t eat it. Well, of course, if you need to eat and you need to function and you don’t have great options, that’s fine. Just eat for the sake of nourishment. But if you’re at a restaurant, eat the thing that’s delicious. Are you engaging in not allowing yourself to have those pleasurable things? The last question in the area of kindness and safety is, what specifically do you say to yourself when things get hard? What specifically do you say to yourself?  Often, people say, “No, I’m really kind to myself. I’m really good. I work out.” But then, when things get hard, everything goes down the drain. They start beating themselves up. When they don’t win at work or they don’t get a good grade or when they’re having a bad anxiety or depression day, that’s when they start beating themselves up. What do you say to yourself specifically when things get hard or when things get painful? Write it down.  MINDSET All right. We’re moving into the last section, which is mindset, because remember, we’re looking at 2024. We’re looking at the next six months, three months, or one month, and we’re really looking at how can we supercharge your recovery.  Here’s the question: How willing are you to experience these emotional struggles in your body? Out of 10, how willing are you?  Most of my patients report like a four, five, and a six, which is still great. I’m happy with that. It’s better than one, two, and three. And if you’re at a one, two, and three, it’s okay. We can start somewhere. Okay? What I’m looking for when I’m with my patients or when I’m with myself is a solid eight, nine, and 10 of willingness.  Of all the things that I push the most, how willing are you to actually have your emotional discomfort? Often, people are like, “I don’t want it. I’m in too much pain. I’ve had too much pain, Kimberley. Don’t even ask me to. You don’t even understand. I’ve been in pain for years,” and I get it. What we do resist persists. So we want to first ask ourselves, how willing are we to allow this discomfort to be in our body, this emotion to be in our body, or this thought to be present in our awareness?  The last question here is, when you wake up, what is your mindset about tackling the day? Do you wake up and go, “Oh no, God, I don’t want this,” or do you wake up and go, “No, no, no, no. Please, no anxiety today. Please, no thoughts today. Please, no depression today. Please, let this be a good day,” or do you wake up and say, “This will be a bad day”? Just take note of it. You’re not wrong for any of them, but we want to get a little bit of a temperature check on how you start the day.  Now, one thing to know, often these thoughts are automatic. You don’t have control of them. Again, I’m not here to say they’re wrong, but what we will talk about next week is ways in which you can change how you respond to some of those automatic negative thoughts, or even your intrusive thoughts, and really look at how we can create a mindset for you.  Let me give you just a quick rundown before we move forward.  Number one, we will be doing tools next week, and I’ll be going deep into that. And that will be the focus of mine for 2024. My biggest focus for 2024 is really doubling down on making sure you guys know what the tools are in your toolkit and which ones work for you, and you get to work from that.  Then I’m actually recording another podcast with Chris Trondsen, where we talk about common mindset roadblocks when it comes to recovery, and we will be giving you strategies there as well. Stick around for that. If you are listening to playbacks here, make sure you listen to all three episodes of this, because I think it will be so important now that you’ve done an inventory and you know what’s going on.  All right. That’s that. That is your mental health audit. Write it all down. Give yourself plenty of love. Congratulate and celebrate the fact that you did this hard thing, and I will see you next week to talk about the tools you need—the specific tools in your anxiety toolbelt—to help you go and live a life where anxiety is not in charge, not in the driver’s seat, and where you live according to your values, what is important to you. Anxiety and emotions do not get to make your decisions, and that’s my goal for you.  Have a great day. As always, I always say it’s a beautiful day to do hard things. You did a hard thing today. Thank you for sticking with me. This is not fun work. I get it. But it is important work, and you do deserve to get this really out on paper so that we can get you going in the direction that you want to go.  As always too, take what you need, leave the rest. If some of these questions don’t really fly for you or they’re very triggering, just do the best you can. I don’t ever want people to feel like what I’m saying is the rule and you have to do it.  Take what you need. Leave the rest, and I’ll see you next week. Have a good one, everyone.

Kimberley: Could I have PTSD or trauma? This is a question that came up a lot following a recent episode we had with Caitlin Pinciotti, and I’m so happy to have her back to talk about it deeper. Let’s go deeper into PTSD, trauma, what it means, who has it, and why we develop it. I’m so happy to have you here, Caitlin. Caitlin: Yes, thank you for having me back. INTRODUCING CAITLIN PINCIOTTI Kimberley: Can you tell us a little bit about you and all the amazing things you do? Caitlin: Of course. I’m an assistant professor in the Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences Department at Baylor College of Medicine. I also serve as the co-chair for the IOCDF Trauma and PTSD in OCD Special Interest Group. Generally speaking, a lot of my research and clinical work has specifically focused on OCD, PTSD, and trauma, in particular when those things intersect, what that can look like, and how that can impact treatment. I’m happy to be here to talk more specifically about PTSD. WHAT IS PTST VS TRAUMA? Kimberley: Absolutely. What is PTSD? If you want to give us an understanding of what that means, and then also, would you share the contrast of—now you hear more in social media—what PTSD is versus trauma? Caitlin: Yeah, that’s a great question. A lot of people use these words interchangeably in casual conversation, but they are actually referring to two different things. Trauma refers to the experience that someone has that can potentially lead to the development of a disorder called post-traumatic stress disorder. When we talk about these and the definitions we use, trauma can be sort of a controversial word, that depending on who you ask, they might use a different definition. It might be a little bit more liberal or more conservative.  I’ll just share with you the definition that we use clinically according to the DSM. Trauma would be any sort of experience that involves threatened or actual death, serious injury, or sexual violence, and there are a number of ways that people can experience it. We oftentimes think of directly experiencing trauma. Maybe I was the one who was in the car accident. But there are other ways that people can experience trauma that can have profound effects on them as well, such as witnessing the experience happening to someone else, learning that it happened to a really close loved one, or being exposed to the details of trauma through one’s work, such as being a therapist, being a 911 telecommunicator, or anyone who works on the front lines.  That’s what we mean diagnostically when we talk about trauma. It’s an event that fits that criteria. It can include motor vehicle accidents, serious injuries, sexual violence, physical violence, natural disasters, explosions, war, so on and so forth—anytime when the person feels as though their bodily integrity or safety is at risk or harmed in some way.  Conversely, PTSD is a mental health condition. That’s just one way that people might respond to experiencing trauma. In order to be diagnosed with trauma, the very first criterion is that you have to have experienced trauma. If a person hasn’t experienced an event like what I described, then we would look into some other potential diagnoses that might explain what’s going on for them, because there are lots of different ways that people can be impacted by trauma beyond just PTSD. PTSD SYMPTOMS AND PTSD DIAGNOSIS  Kimberley: Right. What are some of the specific criteria for being diagnosed with PTSD? Caitlin: PTSD is comprised of 20 potential PTSD symptoms, which sounds like a lot, and it is. It can look really different from one person to the next. We break these symptoms down into different clusters to help us understand them a little bit better. There are four overarching clusters of PTSD symptoms. There’s re-experiencing, which is the different ways that we might re-experience the trauma in the present moment, such as through really intrusive and vivid memories, flashbacks, nightmares, or feeling really emotionally upset by reminders of the trauma.  The second cluster is avoidance. This includes both what we would call internal avoidance and external avoidance. Internal avoidance would be avoiding thinking about the trauma, but also avoiding any of the emotions that might remind someone of the trauma. If I felt extremely powerless at the time of my trauma, then I might go to extreme lengths to avoid ever feeling powerless again in my life. In terms of external avoidance, that’s avoiding any cue in our environment that might remind us of the trauma. It could be people, places, different situations, smells, or anything involving the senses. That’s avoidance.  The third cluster of PTSD symptoms is called negative alterations, cognitions, and mood, which is such a mouthful, but it’s basically a long way of saying that after we experience trauma, it’s not uncommon for that experience to impact our mood and how we think about ourselves or other people in the world. You’ll see some symptoms that can actually feel a little bit like depression, maybe feeling low mood, or an inability to experience positive emotions. But there’s also this kind of impact on cognition—an impact on how I view myself and my capabilities, maybe to the extent that I can trust other people or feel that the world is dangerous. Blame is really big here as well. And then the last cluster of symptoms is called hyperarousal. This is basically a scientific word for your body—sort of kicking into that overdrive feeling of that fight, flight, freeze response. These include symptoms where your body is constantly in a state of feeling like there’s danger or threat. This can impact our concentration. It can impact our sleep. We might have angry outbursts because we’re feeling really on edge. We may feel as though we have to constantly watch our backs, survey the situation, and make sure that we are definitely going to be prepared and aware if another trauma were to happen.  Those are the four overarching symptom clusters. But somebody only actually needs to have at least six of those symptoms to a clinically significant and impairing way. Kimberley: Right. Now, I remember early in my own treatment, a clinician using terms like little T trauma and big T trauma. The example that I was discussing is I grew up on a ranch, a very large ranch. My dad is and was a very successful rancher. Every eight to 10 years, we would have this massive drought where we would completely run out of water and we’d have to have trucks bring in water, and there were dead livestock everywhere. It was very financially stressful. I remember her bringing up this idea of what is a little T trauma and what is a big T trauma—not to say that that’s what was assigned to me, but that was the beginning of when I heard this term. WHAT IS BIG T TRAUMA VS LITTLE T TRAUMA?  What does it actually mean for someone to say big T trauma versus small T trauma? Caitlin: Yeah, this is another common term that people are using. I’m glad that there is language to describe this because a lot of times, when I provide the definition that I gave a few minutes ago about what trauma is according to the DSM, people will hear that and think, “Wait a minute, my experience doesn’t really fit into that criteria, but I still feel like I’ve been really impacted by something. Maybe it’s even making me experience symptoms that really look and feel a lot like PTSD.” Some people can find that really invalidating, like, “Wait a minute, you’re saying that what I experienced wasn’t traumatizing and it feels like it was traumatizing.”  Those terms can be used to separate out big T trauma, meaning something that meets the DSM definition that I provided—that really more strict definition of trauma. Whereas little T trauma is a word that we can use to describe these other experiences that don’t quite fit that strict criteria but still subjectively felt traumatizing to us and have impacted us in some way.  What’s interesting is that there’s some research that suggests that the extent to which somebody subjectively feels like something was traumatic is actually more predictive of their mental health outcomes than whether or not it meets this strict definition because we see people all the time who experience big T traumas and they might be totally fine afterwards. And then there are people who experience little T traumas and are really struggling.  We can use little T trauma to describe things like racial trauma, discrimination, minority stress, the experiences that you described, and even just significant interpersonal losses and things like that. Kimberley: Yeah. Maybe even COVID. For some, it was a capital T trauma, would you say, because they did almost lose their lives or witness someone? Is that correct? Would you say that some others would have interpreted it as a smaller T and then some wouldn’t have experienced it as a trauma at all? Caitlin: Yes, I think that’s a great example because there are definitely a lot of folks who don’t necessarily know someone who became really ill, lost their life, or didn’t have that personally happen to them. But there was this looming stress, maybe even related to quarantine and isolation and things like that. WHO GETS PTSD AND TRAUMA? Kimberley: This is really fascinating. I wonder if you could share a little, like, of all the people, what are the factors that you mentioned that increase someone’s chances of going on to have PTSD? Who goes on to get PTSD, and who doesn’t? How can we predict that? What do we know from the research? Caitlin: This is an interesting question because I think that some people might intuitively think, “Well, somebody experienced this really horrible trauma. Of course, they’re going to go on to develop PTSD.” We actually know that people on the whole can be pretty resilient even in the face of experiencing pretty horrible tragedies.  Our estimates of exposure to what we would call potentially traumatic experiences range from 70% to 90% of the population, and most of us will experience something at some point in our lives that would need that definition—that strict definition of a trauma. Yet, only about 6 to 7% of people will be diagnosed with PTSD at some point in their lives. So there’s this huge discrepancy here.  There are lots of factors, and of course, we don’t have this perfectly nailed down where we can exactly predict, “Okay, this person is going to be fine. This person is going to have PTSD.” It’s really an interaction of lots of factors. But we know that there are some things that can either provide a buffering effect against PTSD or have the opposite effect, where they might put somebody at greater risk.  One of the biggest things that’s come up in research is social support or the lack thereof, so that when people have really great social support after their trauma, whether it’s after a sexual assault or they’ve come home from combat, that can really buffer against the likelihood of developing PTSD. The reverse is true as well when people don’t have social support. We saw this, for example, after the Vietnam War, where a lot of veterans came home and really were mistreated by a lot of people. Unfortunately, that’s a risk factor for developing PTSD.  But there are other things too, like coping. Not necessarily using one particular coping skill, but rather having a variety of coping strategies that somebody can use flexibly, even something like humor. We see this as a resilience factor. Obviously, there are times when using humor can serve as a distraction or avoidance, and there are times when it can be really adaptive too. Obviously, of course, genetics that people may have a predisposition in general towards having mental health concerns. Sex, we know that people assigned female at birth have a higher likelihood of developing PTSD after trauma.  And then there are things that may be specific to the experience itself, so the type of trauma. Sexual assault is unfortunately a really big risk factor for developing PTSD, whereas there are other trauma types where fewer people go on to develop PTSD from those.  And then there’s something that we call peritraumatic fear, and that just means the fear that you were experiencing at the time that the event was happening. In the moment that the trauma was happening to me, how scared was I? How much did I feel like I might lose my life? People who experience more of that fear at the time of the event are more likely to go on and develop PTSD.  But it’s pretty interesting too, because, as with everything, there isn’t just this binary, like you either have it or you don’t have it. I want to normalize this too for anyone who might be listening and maybe has recently experienced something really horrible and is struggling with some of these symptoms that we talked about. It doesn’t necessarily mean that you have PTSD or that you’re going to continue to have PTSD.  Most people, about 50 to 65%, will experience mild to moderate post-traumatic stress symptoms after the event that will just gradually go away on their own. We call that a resilience trajectory. We also have about 10 to 15% of people who have what we call a recovery trajectory, where maybe right away they did have a spike in post-traumatic stress symptoms, right away in that first month or so. But after a year, again, it’s resolved itself.  And then we have two trajectories that go on to describe people who will have PTSD. That would be a chronic trajectory where somebody would have this elevation in symptoms after the trauma that persists. That’s usually about 15 to 20% of people. And then less likely is what we call a delayed trajectory. This is about only 5 to 10% of people who may have had really mild symptoms right away or perhaps no symptoms at all. And then, after about six to 12 months, it might just all of a sudden skyrocket for whatever reason. IT IS OCD OR AM I IN DENIAL?  Kimberley: Right. So interesting. I was actually wondering what you often hear about people who, especially as someone who treats OCD and anxiety disorders, often questioning whether there was a trauma they had forgotten. Like, did I repress or am I in denial of a trauma? What can you share statistically about that? Caitlin: Yeah, that’s a really great question. It’s definitely more of a controversial topic in the field, not because people don’t have the experience of having these recovered memories, but rather because of what we know about how memory works and how fragile it can be, that as clinicians, we have to be really careful that we’re not, in our efforts to help someone, inadvertently constructing a false memory.  I would say that most of the time, this delayed trajectory of PTSD symptoms is less so about the person not remembering the event, but more so like they just have continued on with their life and are probably suppressing, avoiding, and doing all sorts of things that are maybe keeping it at bay temporarily. And then there may be, in a lot of cases, some big life event that may bring it up, or perhaps another traumatic experience or something like that. WHAT IF I HAVE REPEATED TRAUMAS?  Kimberley: Yeah. I was going to ask that as well, as I was wondering. Let’s say you’ve been through a trauma. You recovered on that trajectory you talked about. Are you more likely to then go on to have PTSD if you repeat different events, or do we not have research to back that up? Caitlin: That’s a great question. I’m not sure specifically about, depending on which trajectory you were initially on, how that increases the likelihood later on. I can say that repeated exposure to trauma in general is associated with a greater likelihood of PTSD. I would say that, probably regardless of how quickly your symptoms onset, if at all initially, experiencing more and more trauma is going to increase the likelihood of PTSD. WHO CAN DIAGNOSE PTSD AND TRAUMA?  Kimberley: Right. Amazing. Thank you for sharing that. I know that was very in-depth, but I think it helps us to really understand the complexity and the way that it can play out.  Who can make these diagnoses? I know, as I mentioned to you before, even my daughter has said she found herself on some magazine website that was having her do some online tests to determine whether there was trauma. It seems to be everywhere, these online tests. Can you get diagnosed through an online test? Would you recommend that or not? Who can we trust to make these diagnoses? Caitlin: That’s a great question. I would not recommend using something like an online test or even a self-report questionnaire to help you figure out if you have PTSD. Now, it can give you a sense of the specific areas that I might be struggling with that I could then share with a licensed provider, who can then make the diagnosis. But if you were to just find a quiz online and take it, and it says you have PTSD, that would not be something that we would consider to be valid or reliable in any way.  I would recommend talking with a psychologist, a psychiatrist, any sort of general practitioner, an MD, or maybe even someone’s primary care physician. Definitely, if you can get in touch with a licensed provider who specializes in PTSD and can really be sure that that’s what’s going on for you.  Now, TikTok and all these things exist out there. As with anything on the internet, it can be used for good and it can also be very harmful. I think it just comes down to gathering information that may be helpful but then passing it on to someone who can sift through the misinformation and give you a clearer answer. Kimberley: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think, as someone myself who’s had their own mental journey, I do remember during different phases of my own recovery where our brains just don’t make sense. I had an eating disorder—a very bad eating disorder—and my brain just couldn’t see clearly in some areas, and me being so frustrated with that. I know lots of people with, let’s say, panic disorder feel the same way or health anxiety, their condition feels so confusing and makes no sense that in the moment of being grief-stricken by this and also very confused, it’s pretty easy to start wondering, “Could this have been a trauma or is this PTSD? This doesn’t make sense. Why am I having this mental health issue?” Especially if it’s not something that was genetically set up in your family. I’m wondering if you can speak to the listeners who may have dabbled in thinking maybe there is a trauma, a big T, a little T, or PTSD. Can you speak to how someone might navigate that? Caitlin: Most definitely. I’ll validate too that it’s really complex. We use the DSM to help us understand these different diagnoses, but there’s so much overlap. Panic disorder—obviously, panic attacks are the hallmark feature of panic disorder, but people can have panic attacks in PTSD as well. People with eating disorders might have issues with their self-image and their self-esteem. That can happen in PTSD as well, as I mentioned, even with mood disorders. There are symptoms in PTSD that sure look and sound a lot like depression.  If it feels confusing, “Well, wait a minute, I have this symptom. What does it belong to? What does it mean?” We do really have this very imperfect and overlapping classification system that we use. That being said, it’s a legit question to ask if somebody feels like, as you were saying, “I’ve been struggling with these symptoms, but it really feels like there’s something more here.”  When we diagnose PTSD, we go through all of the 20 symptoms, some of which I referenced earlier. For each symptom, we’ll ask about when that symptom started for the person relative to trauma and whether or not it’s related to trauma in some sort of way, if there’s some content there to work with.  For example, somebody maybe wasn’t having any issues with their mood whatsoever, and then they experienced trauma, and all of a sudden, it was just really hard for them to get out of bed. Well, that could potentially be a symptom of PTSD because it started after the trauma.  One thing that I hear a lot, because unfortunately, childhood trauma is really common, when I ask folks about this, they’ll say, “I don’t know. The trauma happened when I was so young that I don’t even remember who I was before this person that I am now, who’s really struggling.” In that case, people usually have a pretty good insight into this. Like, do you think that this is related in any way? Or maybe, if you have any recollection, you had a little bit of this experience and this symptom initially, and it got worse after the trauma. That, again, could potentially indicate that that’s a symptom of PTSD.  I would say for those folks who are listening, who are struggling with things like panic attacks, difficulty with eating, mood, whatever it might be, even OCD, which we talked about recently, really checking in with yourself about how and if those symptoms are related to your trauma. If they are, then find someone that you trust that you can talk to about it. Hopefully, a therapist who can help you piece this apart.  It could still be maybe the disorder you thought it was, maybe it is panic disorder, maybe it is OCD, maybe it is an eating disorder that’s still informed by trauma in some way or impacted in some way, which would be important to be able to process in treatment. Or it could just be PTSD entirely. And then that would be really important to know because that would significantly change what the treatment approach would be. Kimberley: Yeah. It’s so true of so many disorders. You could have social anxiety and panic attacks because of social anxiety, and a mental health professional will help you to determine what’s the primary, like, “Oh, you have social anxiety and social interactions are causing you to have panic,” and that can sort of help. I think as clinicians, we’re constantly ruling out disorders using our professional hat to do that. I think you’re right. Speak to a professional and have them do our assessment to help you pass that apart. Because I think in general, any mental health disorder will make you feel like something doesn’t feel right, and that’s the nature of any disorder.  Caitlin: Right. The good news, too, is that, within reason, some of the treatment techniques that we have can be used more broadly. Interoceptive exposures, we can use that for people who have panic disorder, just people who struggle with panic attacks, or maybe people who have OCD or GAD and just feel really sensitive to those sensations in their body that suggest that they might be anxious. Same thing with behavioral activation. We use that for depression, and that can really easily be added to any treatment, whether it’s treatment for PTSD or something else. You’re exactly right, getting clarity on what’s going on for folks, and then what are some of these techniques that might be most helpful for these symptoms? PTSD AND TRAUMA TREATMENT  Kimberley: Yeah. Thank you. You perfectly segue this into the next question, which is, can you describe the treatment or give us names of the treatment for this comparison of trauma versus PTSD? Are they the same treatments? Does it matter whether it’s a big T trauma or a little T trauma? Can you give us some idea of the treatments for these struggles? Caitlin: Definitely. Most of the evidence-based treatments that exist are specifically for PTSD. Obviously, they touch on trauma, of course, as the reason why somebody has PTSD and where all of these symptoms stem from. But there aren’t as many treatments that are, let’s say, specifically for trauma, at least not in terms of a standardized way of working through that. If somebody’s experienced trauma and they don’t have PTSD, and let’s say they don’t have any diagnoses, but they are still impacted by this experience, just doing behavioral therapy or whatever treatment feels like a good fit for what somebody is trying to work through might be sufficient. And then we have these evidence-based treatments that have been shown to really target PTSD symptoms and help reduce them. A few years back, I think it was 2017, the American Psychological Association reviewed all of the research on PTSD treatments. They reviewed it using lots of different criteria for what it means to feel better after treatment beyond just reducing PTSD symptoms, but also looking at other things too, like mood and suicidality and things like that. They essentially created this list of treatments that they rank orders in different tiers, depending on how effective they were shown to be.  In the top tier are four treatments. There’s cognitive behavioral therapy just broadly, cognitive therapy also broadly, and then the two specialized treatments are prolonged exposure (PE) and cognitive processing therapy or CPT. I can talk a little bit more about those two if you’d like.  In the second tier are things like acceptance and commitment therapy, EMDR—these treatments that people may have used themselves and have found really effective, and they are effective. They’re just maybe a little bit less effective for fewer people, if that makes any sense. It’s not to say that EMDR doesn’t work, but rather that there’s just more of an evidence base for things like PE and CPT. DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PTSD AND TRAUMA TREATMENTS  Kimberley: Great. To speak to those two top-tier treatments, can you compare and contrast them for someone just so that they feel they understand the difference? Caitlin: Yeah. If I had a whiteboard, I would just draw out the CBT triangle, but hopefully, folks listening know that in the CBT triangle, you have your emotions, your behaviors, and your thoughts, and all these things are constantly interacting with one another. We could say, just on a really simplified level, that when we are seeking treatment for PTSD, we want our emotions to be different. We want to feel less emotionally impacted by the trauma that we’ve experienced. PE and CPT are both under the umbrella of cognitive behavioral therapy, so they both use that triangle. They just get at it a different way. PE starts with the behaviors, knowing that the thoughts and emotions come along for the ride. CPT starts with the thoughts, knowing that the behaviors and the emotions come along for the ride.  Now, they’re both extremely effective at reducing PTSD symptoms. They’ve done head-to-head comparisons. They’re both great. You’re not going to find one that’s significantly better than another, but you might find one that feels like a better fit for what you’re currently struggling with.  Cognitive processing therapy, again, starting with the thoughts, cognitive processing, basically involves-- I almost think of this as looking at our thoughts and our beliefs about things and examining them from different lenses. I always picture plucking an apple from a tree. Like, okay, this is a belief that I developed from my trauma. This was really adaptive for me at the time because this belief told me that I can’t trust anyone and I have to always watch my back. Boy, did that help me when I was in combat and I was always watching my back and making sure I was safe. But as I look at it from these different angles, I might realize, well, I’m not in combat anymore, and I’m living in a pretty safe environment with safe people. So maybe this belief doesn’t really serve me anymore.  You work with your therapist to identify what we call stuck points, which are these really deep-seated beliefs that somebody has about themselves, other people, or the world that either developed from trauma or were reinforced by trauma, because sometimes people will say, “Well, I’ve never trusted people. I’ve always been in an environment where things weren’t safe.” And then there we go, the trauma happened, and it just proved me right. Cognitive processing therapy helps people work through these stuck points and come up with alternative perspectives on these thoughts.  Prolonged exposure is a lot more similar to what I imagine lots of the folks listening may have done with exposure therapy generally, or exposure and response prevention for OCD. Again, we’re starting with the behavior, knowing that if we target the behavior first, that’s going to change our cognitions, and it’s going to change our emotions.  PE involves two different types of exposure. The first one being in vivo exposure, which is really similar to just any sort of ERP exposure where you expose yourself to something in the environment that triggers a thought about the trauma or some sort of emotional reaction. You do those over and over again until they feel like no big deal to you, you feel really awesome about yourself, and you can conquer the world because you can.  And with your therapist, you do an imaginal exposure, which is where, in a really safe environment, you talk through the experience of your trauma and what happened to you. You do this actually in a unique way to really engage with that memory because, as we talked about, that internal avoidance is so common in people with PTSD. This imaginal exposure would be describing the experience in the present tense, painting a picture as though it was a film that was playing out right in front of our eyes, and really digging into the details of, what am I feeling in the moment that this trauma is happening? What am I hearing? What am I sensing? And doing that imaginal exposure, again, with your therapist in a really safe space until it doesn’t have an impact on you anymore.  I always say this to people when they start PE with me: I know that this may sound nuts right now. But a lot of people who do PE will get to a point where they’ll look at me and say, “I’m so bored telling this story again. I’ve told this story so many times. It doesn’t even bring up this emotional response for me anymore.” That feels really unlikely for people who are just starting out in treatment and are so impacted by this memory, and they do everything in their power to avoid it. But people can and very much do get to a place where they feel like they’ve conquered this memory and it doesn’t control them anymore.  That’s how PE and CPT work. Again, they both eventually target the same thing. It’s just sort of, which route do you go? COMPLIMENTARY PTSD TREATMENTS  Kimberley: Right. Amazing. Thank you. From my experience too, and actually, this is a question, not a statement—my experience, some people who I’m close with or clients who have been through PTSD treatment also then had to develop some coping skills, mindfulness skills, compassion skills, or maybe sometimes even DBT skills to get them across the finish line. Has that been your experience? What is your feedback from a more scientific perspective? Caitlin: Yeah, it really depends on the person. There are also combinations of these treatments. There’s a combined DBT and PE protocol out there for folks who do need a little bit more of those skills. Some people do feel like they would benefit from having some of these coping skills, maybe upfront or throughout the course of treatment. But they’ve also done research where they’ve started with that skill-building before they go into PE or CPT, compared to people who go right in. Actually, what they often find is that starting with skill building, sometimes it’s just colluding with avoidance, and it just lengthens the amount of time that somebody needs before they start to feel better.  I’m glad you asked this question because it’s so common for people with PTSD to feel like, “I can’t. I can’t do this thing. I can’t feel this thing. I can’t talk about this thing.” And they really can. Sometimes if we allow people to really challenge those “I can’t” beliefs, then they’ll realize, “I really thought that I was going to need all this extra support or I was going to need this or this, and I was able to just move right through this treatment.” Now, of course, again, that’s not the case for everyone. There are some folks who maybe have much more severe PTSD, maybe have some different comorbidities like personality disorders or something else where it might be helpful to involve some of that, or people who had really chronic exposure to, say, childhood trauma. But far and away, people are often much better able to jump right into some of these treatments than they think they are. HOW TO FIND A PTSD TRAUMA THERAPIST  Kimberley: Thank you for sharing that. I think that’s super helpful for us to feel hopeful at the end. One more question before you tell us about you and some of the amazing things that you’re doing. Where might people go? As we know, with OCD and health anxiety, we want a specialist to be helping us, ideally. I’ve noticed as a consumer that everybody and their Psychology Today platform says they treat trauma. I’m wondering how we might pass through that and find treatment providers who are skilled in this area. How might they find a trained professional? Caitlin: I’m glad you mentioned that about Psychology Today. That’s the advice that I give people when they’re using Psychology Today, or really any sort of platform. If this person is saying that they treat everything under the sun, then it’s probably not a person that you want to link up with for something really specialized because it’s-- what is the saying? “Jack of all trades, master of none.” And I start to get suspicious even that this person even does evidence-based treatment for trauma and PTSD when they’ve listed a thousand things. It’s definitely a red flag to consider for those who are listening and maybe have had this experience.  In terms of finding a therapist, if folks are interested in PE or CPT, there’s actually directories of therapists who’ve been trained and certified in those modalities. You can find them on-- I’m trying to think of the exact website. If you Google “Prolonged Exposure providers,” something will come up, I believe it’s through Penn. You can do the same for cognitive processing therapy. If you Google, I think it’s like “CPT provider roster,” you’ll get a whole list of providers as well. Now, just because somebody isn’t on there doesn’t mean that they haven’t been trained in these things. There’s just a certification process that some people go through, and then they can get added to this list. If your provider says, “I’m trained in PE, I’m trained in CPT,” I would probably trust that person that, for one thing, they even know what those things are, and I’d be willing to give them a shot. Also, and I know we mentioned this on the last episode too, for anyone listening who might have PTSD and OCD, I’ve compiled a list of providers on my website—providers who are trained to treat both OCD and PTSD. I have that broken down by state and then a couple of international providers as well. My website is www.cmpinciotti.com.  In terms of broad resources beyond finding a provider, there are lots of organizations that have put out some really great content about PTSD—videos, handouts, blogs, articles, all sorts of things. I think the biggest place that I send people is the National Center for PTSD. This is technically run through the Veterans Administration, but anyone can use these resources. They’re not only for veterans. It’s very, very helpful. I’d recommend people who want more information to go there.  You can also find things on the Anxiety and Depression Association of America, the National Institute of Mental Health, the National Alliance on Mental Illness, and so on. And then, of course, I mentioned the Trauma and PTSD in OCD Special Interest Group that I co-chair, that folks can sign up for that too, and we send out materials through there as well. Kimberley: Amazing. I am so grateful for you because I think we’ve covered so much in a way that feels pretty easily digestible, helps put things in perspective, and hopefully answers a lot of questions that people may be having but didn’t feel brave enough to ask. Where can people find out more about you? You’ve already listed your website. Is there any other thing you want to tell us about the work that you’re doing so that we can support you? Caitlin: On my website, in addition to the treatment provider directory, I also have some handouts and worksheets. Again, these are specific to co-occurring OCD and PTSD. That might be helpful for some folks. I also usually list on there different studies that are ongoing. I have two right now that are ongoing that I can-- oh, actually, I have three—I lied to you when I said two—that people can participate in if they’re interested. There’s one study that we’ll be wrapping up at the end of December. That’s about OCD and trauma. People can email OCDTraumaStudy@bcm.edu for more information. We also have a study that’s specific to LGBTQIA+ people with OCD that also covers some things related to trauma and minority stress in that study. If folks are interested in participating in that, they can email me at PrideOCD@bcm.edu.  And the last one, and I’ll plug this one the most, that if folks are like, “Well, I want to participate in a study, but I don’t know which of those,” or “I only really have a few minutes of my time,” we have a really, really brief survey, and we’re trying to get a representation of folks with OCD from all over the country. For anyone who’s listening and who has OCD and is willing to participate, it’s a 10-minute survey. You can email me at NationalOCDSurvey@bcm.edu. All of these cover the topic of trauma and PTSD within them as well. Kimberley: Thank you. I’m so grateful for you. You’ve come on twice in one month, and I can’t thank you enough. I do value your time, but I so value as well your expertise in this area and your kindness in discussing some really difficult topics. Thank you. <!-- /wp:paragraph --> <!-- wp:paragraph --> Caitlin: No, I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. I hope that folks who are listening can feel a little bit more hopeful about what the future can hold for them. <!-- /wp:paragraph --> <!-- wp:paragraph --> PTSD & TRAUMA LINKS AND RESOURCES  <!-- /wp:paragraph --> <!-- wp:paragraph --> Find a PE provider: https://www.med.upenn.edu/ctsa/find_pe_therapist.html <!-- /wp:paragraph --> <!-- wp:paragraph --> Find a CPT provider: https://cptforptsd.com/cpt-provider-roster/ <!-- /wp:paragraph --> <!-- wp:paragraph --> For educational resources on PTSD: https://www.ptsd.va.gov/ <!-- /wp:paragraph --> <!-- wp:paragraph --> To participate in a brief, 10-minute national survey on OCD: NationalOCDSurvey@bcm.edu <!-- /wp:paragraph --> <!-- wp:paragraph --> To participate in the OCD/Trauma Overlap Study (closing at the end of December): OCDTraumaStudy@bcm.eduTo participate in a study for LGBTQIA+ people with OCD: PrideOCD@bcm.edu <!-- /wp:paragraph -->

Radical acceptance when things get hard can be a very difficult practice. In fact, it can be almost impossible. When things get hard, one of the things we often do is we spend a lot of time ruminating about why it’s so hard and what we could have done to prevent it from being so hard. And, instead of using radical acceptance, we often go into beating ourselves up, telling ourselves, “We should have done this; we could have done that. If only we had looked at it this way or treated it this way.” I want us to really zoom in on these safety behaviors that you’re probably doing. Hopefully, today, you leave here committing to reducing or eliminating those behaviors. Now, I get it. When things are hard, we don’t want to feel the suffering that goes with it. I get it. I don’t want to feel it either. You’re not alone. But when things are hard, often, instead of letting it be hard and feeling our feelings and being kind to ourselves so that we can move into effective behaviors, we get stuck resisting the emotions and doing these other behaviors that increase the shrapnel of the event. I call it ‘shrapnel’ because it does look like that. It creates more damage around us. Let’s look at how we might prevent this.  HUMANS SUFFER You’re suffering. The reason I know this is because you’re a human being, and all human beings have sufferings in their lives. Some of us, more than others. If you’re in a season where the suffering is high, I would basically say, the higher the level of suffering, the more you need to listen in. Maybe listen to this multiple times, get your notepad out, and let’s really go to work.  SOLVING DOESN’T ALWAYS WORK When you’re suffering and your suffering is high, again, it’s very normal to want to solve why you’re suffering, thinking that yes, that may prevent it from happening in the future, prevent us from having more pain, or prevent us from having to feel our feelings. That’s effective behavior, except... if you’re relying on that and you’re spending too much time doing that, chances are, you’re increasing your shrapnel. If that’s the case, let’s talk about other alternatives.  When we’re going through difficult things, there is a strong pull toward figuring out why. But my guess is, if you haven’t solved it yet, chances are you won’t. I know this is true for me. It might be true for you, but you’ve probably already identified the problem of one of the things that may be if, in 20/20 hindsight, you could have done differently. And that’s okay, right? There’s many times I’ve looked back and been like, “Yeah, it didn’t handle that well,” or “That didn’t go as well. Maybe now, knowing what I know, I could have done something different.” But often, we spend too much time resisting the fact that it is hard right now.  If you’re someone who’s spending a lot of time going over and over on repetition, all the things you could have done, chances are, you’re not radically accepting what is. What we want to do first is move to radical acceptance as fast as we can. We’re not saying that you can’t go back and do some effective addressing of what went wrong and what went right. You can do that for short periods of time. But if you’re someone who’s doing it repetitively, catch yourself. We want to move into radical acceptance that yes, things are hard right now. WHY DOES RADICAL ACCEPTANCE SUCK? Often, we resist practicing radical acceptance because of one core reason, and that’s because we don’t want to feel bad. We don’t want to feel the guilt. We don’t want to feel shame. We don’t want to feel the uncertainty. We don’t want to feel sad. We don’t want to feel angry, grief, or panic, whatever it might be. It might be physical pain. We don’t want to feel it. And so hand in hand goes this work of radically accepting the suffering that you’re experiencing in whatever form, whether it be emotional, physical, spiritual, or other, and then really being willing and creating a safe place to feel those feelings. I’m not saying ruminate on those feelings, make them worse, or agree with everything you’re thinking and feeling. No. I’m just saying, being able to observe that yes, sadness is here, or grief is here, or anxiety is here. It’s showing up in these ways in my chest, in my head, in my shoulders, in my neck, in my hips, in my tummy, wherever it’s showing up for you. First radically accepting it and then being willing to feel those experiences and those sensations. We alternate between those two. We radically accept, then be willing and open. Then we have to go back and radically accept, be willing, and be open. RADICAL ACCEPTANCE IS REPETITIVE I want to remind you that it’s okay that you have to do this on repeat. Often, with my patients—and I do this too, I have to admit—we practice radical acceptance, we practice self-compassion, we practice willingness for a little while, and then we get frustrated because it’s not making it go away. It’s not fixing it. It’s not making it disappear. So we go back to trying to solve, “Why is this happening? Why shouldn’t it be this way? What did I do wrong?” instead of knowing that this is a repetitive practice that we commit to over and over again. It’s like brushing our teeth. We don’t do it once and go, “Great, it should be done.” No, we go back, and we’ve accepted that we’ll do it every morning and we’ll do it every night. For some of you, at lunchtime too. I really want you guys to catch this deep urge and urgency to resist what really is and resist the feelings that go ahead and accompany that experience. We want to move back as fast as we can into radically accepting that it is what it is.  RESISTING RADICAL ACCEPTANCE Now, if you’re anything like me, a part of your brain is going to go, “But it’s not fair. This is not fair. It is too much. Other people don’t seem to be having these problems. It’s not fair that I have this problem. It’s not fair that mine is so big right now and theirs is not.” I get that too.  Also just acknowledge, you may even want to just validate and go, “Yeah, this is my season. They’ll have theirs.” I promise you, they’ll have theirs. Hopefully not. We don’t want to spread more pain around. But with being a human, it’s 50/50. It’s 50% hard and 50% wonderful, and that’s a part of being human. They’ll have their season; you’re in yours. It is temporary.  Again, resist the urge to stay in the rumination of “It’s not fair.” You can validate that by going, “Yes, it is not fair. This is a hard deck of cards that I’ve been dealt right now. I’m going to again try to reduce the shrapnel by not engaging in the why me and why did this happen and it shouldn’t have, and it’s not fair.”  I want to also say it’s okay that you land there. That is a normal part of the grief process to land in that bargaining phase of grief. What we’re really speaking to today is when you get caught in that.  I NEED RADICAL ACCEPTANCE TOO Now, I am speaking to you about this because I needed to hear this message more than any of you today. This is actually as much for me as it is for you. I think that as I go through very difficult seasons in my life, I find them incredibly humbling because it helps me to see the story that I have told myself, the story that things should go well for me, that things shouldn’t be hard, that I shouldn’t suffer as much as I do in certain areas, that I should somehow magically be able to solve this or control this, and that other people want me to be able to handle this, so therefore, I should be able to.  I forget my humanness. I keep getting humbled by my humanness. I feel like the world keeps coming to show me, “Kimberley, you’re just like everybody else.” Everybody suffers. How can you lean in and have this be an opportunity to deepen your self-compassion practice, deepen your mindfulness practice, and deepen your ability to feel any emotion that shows up? Because they will, many times in my lifetime. They will continue to show up in different ways because I’m a human, not because I’m a faulty person. All humans have these feelings.  For you, you also have to remember, these are normal human feelings. You didn’t do anything wrong. It’s not your fault that you’re having them so strong right now. Resist the urge to go into self-punishment for the fact that you’re suffering.  Again, radically accept that it is painful right now, and then move into willingness and openness to feel those feelings and create the safest, softest, gentlest landing for you as you navigate these really difficult emotions. As you do it, not to replace it, not to make them go away, but to help guide you through them.  YOU CANNOT BYPASS EMOTIONS You can’t bypass emotions. I have learned that one the hard way. You can’t bypass them. If you do, you’re probably increasing your problems. If you’re doing compulsions to get your uncertainty and your anxiety to go away, you’re going to have more of that obsession. If you’re avoiding the thing that’s hard, you’re probably going to feel disempowered, and it’s going to be a bigger problem. If you’re resisting your emotions and you’re resisting your experience, at some point, they will probably blow up and explode, and you’ll feel them a lot.  Our job, again—and this is my goal for myself, and I hope it’s your goal too—is I want to be a place, a container. I want to be able to experience the full range of emotional experiences safely so that in the future, when hard days come, when I lose loved ones, when I go through hard times, when I witness difficult things, I already know that I have the ability to wade through this.  WHEN YOU FEEL LIKE YOU CANNOT HANDLE IT ANYMORE  The people who are struggling with “I can’t handle this,” they’re the ones who have done everything they can to avoid feeling their feelings, and they haven’t gotten much experience with learning to master emotions. When we do learn that we can have emotions and we do learn that we can tolerate them, then we do learn that we can ride them out. There’s a sense of empowerment, like, “I can do really, really hard things.” As I’m navigating a tough season, I’m actually blown away and in awe of myself, knowing that I can handle a lot. I’ve handled a lot in other difficult seasons in my life, and I come out of it usually being like, “Wow.” Actually pretty impressed. I feel that way, especially when I stay out of that sort of rumination. I call it the inner tantrum. I have a tantrum like, “It’s not fair, and it shouldn’t be.”  RADICAL ACCEPTANCE SUMMARY I wanted to make this a very quick episode. Hopefully, it’s exactly what you needed to hear.  Number one, if you’re in a difficult season, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you. That’s just a human thing.  Number two, if you’re in a difficult season, let’s back off from trying to solve what you could have done better because, coulda, woulda, shoulda, it’s all 20/20 hindsight. You had no idea. Let’s just leave that alone. Be very aware of that and work towards catching it and moving towards radical acceptance, willingness, and self-compassion.  If you’re somebody who really needs to improve your self-compassion, we have a whole mindfulness vault called The Meditation Vault. You can go to CBTSchool.com, and it will guide you through self-compassion practices that were led by me. It’s all audio. It’s all there. I’ll teach you how to do it, and that hopefully will help you have my voice in your head so that you can start to practice self-compassion no matter what shows up for you, no matter what emotion you’re experiencing, no matter what hardship you’re experiencing.  I hope that’s helpful. Have a wonderful day. I’m sending you all the love, and I will talk to you next week.

Kimberley: Is ERP traumatizing? This is a question I have been seeing on social media or coming up in different groups in the OCD and OCD-related disorders field. Today, I have Amy Mariaskin, PhD, here to talk with us about this idea of “Is ERP traumatizing” and how we might work with this very delicate but yet so important topic. Thank you, Amy, for being here. WHY MIGHT PEOPLE THINK ERP IS TRAUMATIC?  Kimberley: Let’s just go straight to it. Why might people be saying that ERP is traumatic or traumatizing? In any of those kinds of terms, why do you think people might be saying this? Amy: I think there’s a number of reasons. One of which is that a therapy like ERP, which necessitates that people work through discomfort by moving through it and not moving around it or sidestepping it, is different than a lot of other therapies which are based more on support, validation, et cetera, as the sole method. It’s not to say that ERP doesn’t have that. I think all good therapy has support and validation. However, I think that’s part of it. The fact that’s baked into the treatment, you’re looking at facing discomfort and really changing your relationship with discomfort. I think when people hear about that, that’s one reason that it comes up. And then another reason, I think, is that there are people who have had really negative experiences with ERP. I think that while that could be true in a number of different therapeutic modalities and with a number of different clinicians and so forth, it is something that has gained traction because it dovetails with this idea of, well, if people are being asked to do difficult things, then isn’t that actually going to deepen their pain or worsen their condition rather than alleviate it? That’s my take. Kimberley: When I first heard this idea or this experience, my first response was actual shock because, as an ERP therapist and someone who treats OCD, I have seen it be the biggest gift to so many people. I’ve heard even Chris Trondsen, who often will say that this gave him his life back, or—he’s been on the show—Ethan Smith, or anyone really who’s been on the show talk about how it’s the most, in their opinion, like the most effective way to get your life back and get back to life and live your life and face fear and all of those things.  DO PEOPLE FEEL ERP IS A DIFFICULT TREATMENT? I had that first feeling of surprise and shock, but also then asked more questions and asked about their experience of ERP being very pressured or feeling too scared or too soon, too much too soon, and so forth. Do you have any other ideas as to why people might be experiencing this difficult treatment? Amy: I do. I think that sometimes, like any other therapy, if you’re approaching therapy as a technician and not as a clinician, and you’re not as a therapist really being aware of the cues that you’re getting from the very brave people sitting in front of you, entrusting their care to you—if we’re not being clinicians rather than technicians, we can sometimes just follow a protocol indiscriminately and without respect to really important interpersonal dynamics like consent and context, personal history, if there’s not an awareness of the power dynamic in the room that a therapist has a lot of power.  We work with a lot of people as well who might have people pleasing that if you’re going to be quite prescriptive about a certain treatment, you do this, and then you do this, and then you do this without taking care to either lay the foundation to really help somebody understand the science of how ERP works or get buy-in from the front end. I know we’ll talk a little bit more about that, as well as there’s a difference between exposure and flooding. There’s a difference between exposure that serves to reconnect people with the parts of their lives that they’ve been missing, or, as I always call it, reclaims. We want to have exposures that are reclaims, as opposed to just having exposures that generate negative emotion in and of itself.  Now, sometimes there are exposures that just generate negative emotions, because sometimes that’s the thing to practice. There are some people who feel quite empowered by these over-the-top exposures that are above and beyond what you would do to really have a reclaim. I’m going to go above and beyond for an exposure, and I’m going to do something that is off the wall. I am eating the thing off of the toilet, or I have intrusive thoughts about harming myself, and I’m going to go to the top of the parking garage, and I’m really going to lean all the way over. Would I do that in my everyday life? No. There are some clients for whom that is not something that they’re willing to do or it’s not something that’s important for them to do to reconnect with the life that they want to live, and there are others who are quite empowered.  If you’re a therapist and you don’t take care to listen to the feedback from clients and let their voice be a part of that conversation, then you may end up, again, as a technician, prescribing things that aren’t going to land right, and that could result in some harm. My heart goes out to anyone who’s had that experience, because I think that’s valid. Kimberley: I will be completely honest. I think that my early training as an ERP therapy clinician, because I was new, meant that I was showing up as a technician. When I heard this, again, I said my first thought was a little bit of shock, but then went, “Oh, no, that does make sense.” When I was an intern, I was following protocols and I was learning. We all, as humans, make mistakes. Not mistakes so much as if I feel like I did anything wrong, but maybe went too fast with a patient or pushed too hard with a patient or gave an exposure because another person in supervision was saying that that worked for their client, but I was learning this skill of being attuned to my client, and that was a learning process. I can understand that some people may have had that experience, even me. I’m happy to admit to that early in my training, many years ago. Amy: That’s a great point. I think if we’re all being honest with ourselves, whether it be within the context of ERP or otherwise, there is a learning curve for therapists as well. I think going back to the basic skills and tenets of what it means to have a positive therapeutic relationship is that so much of that has to do with the repair as well. If there are times, because there will be times when you misjudge something or a client says, “I really think that I’m ready to try this,” then we say things like when exposures go awry, when the worst-case scenario happens, or what have you.  That’s another philosophical question because I think in doing exposures, we’re not necessarily, at least my style, saying the bad thing’s not going to happen. It’s about accepting the risk and uncertainty, which is a reasonable amount. However, I think when those things happen where it does feel like, “Hey, this felt like too much too soon,” or this felt like, “Wow, I wasn’t ready for this,” or “I don’t feel like that’s exactly what I consented to. You said we were going to do this, and then you took an extra step”—I think being able to create an environment where you can have those conversations with clients and they feel comfortable bringing it up with you and you can do repair work is also important. That it’s not just black or white like, “This happened and I feel traumatized.” Again, I don’t want to sound like I’m blaming anybody who’s had that experience, but I’m just saying that I think that happens on a micro level, probably to all of us at some point.  I think it’s also important to acknowledge, and later we’re going to talk about it, but the notion of the word ‘traumatizing’ is a little bit difficult for me to hear as well because I think from the perspective of an evidence-based practitioner, the treatments that we have, even for so-called big T trauma, many of them integrate in exposure. All of my first-line treatments, including ones that maybe come at it a little bit more obliquely like EMDR or something like that, which is not something that I personally use, are certainly out there as like a second-line trauma treatment. But things like prolonged exposure and cognitive processing therapy, they all have this exposure component to them. Even the notion that if there’s trauma, you can’t go there or that talking about hard things is traumatizing. I don’t know. Can we talk a little bit about that? Because I don’t know if that’s something you’ve thought about too, that it’s hard to reconcile. Kimberley: Yeah. Let me give a personal experience as somebody who had a pretty severe eating disorder. I was doing exposure therapy, but I didn’t get called that, and I didn’t know what to be that at the time. But I had to go and eat the thing that I was terrified to eat. While some people might think, “Well, that’s not a hard exposure,” for me, it was a 10 out of 10. I wanted to punch my therapist in the face at the idea that she would suggest that I eat these things. I’m not saying this is true for other people; I’m just giving a personal experience. I’m actually really glad that she held me to these things because now I can have full freedom over the things that used to run my life. I know that there is nothing on any menu I can’t eat. If I had to eat on any plane, whatever they served me, I knew I was able to nourish my body with what was served to me, which I didn’t have before I did that.  The other piece is somebody who has also been through trauma therapy. A lot of it required me to go back and relive that event over and over. Even though I again wanted to run away and it felt like my brain was on fire, that too was very helpful. But what was really helpful was how I reframed that event. If I was doing it and, as I was doing it, I was saying, “This is re-traumatizing me,” it was a very bad experience. But if I was saying, “This is an opportunity for me to learn how to have our full range of emotions, even the darker stuff,” that ended up being a very important therapeutic experience for me. That’s just my personal experience. Do you want to speak to that? Amy: Yeah. I wasn’t planning on speaking to this part of it, but I will say as well that having had a traumatic event—a single event, big T trauma—that happened at my place of employment years ago. This is over 10 years ago now, which involved being held at gunpoint, which involved a hostage-type situation. It’s interesting when you talk about trauma, that you want to tell the whole story, but I’m like, “Oh, we don’t have enough time,” which is interesting because our brains first don’t want to tell the stories or we want to bury them. But suffice to say that after this very painful, very terrifying experience, after which all the hallmark symptoms of hypervigilance and quick to startle and images in my head and avoidance of individuals who looked like this particular individual and what have you. The most powerful thing for me in knowing this as somebody who works in exposure protocols, going back to work and being so kind to myself as I was, again, I come back to this word reclaim. It doesn’t happen overnight. It’s not something I wish there were. I do wish there’s, “Oh yeah, we just push this button in our brains, and then that’s just where we feel resilient again.”  But the process of building resilience for me was confronting this environment, reclaiming this environment. I think any exposure protocol has the ability to have that same effect if the framing is there and if it resonates with the person. Being somebody who’s such a believer in exposure therapy for my clients, I was able to step into a role where I came out of that situation feeling so empowered and the ability to hold all of my experience gently and with compassion, as opposed to sweeping it under the rug and then having it come out sideways. Kimberley: I really appreciate you bringing that up because, similarly, I stowed mine down for many years because I refused to look at it until I was forced by another event to have to look at it. I think that’s a piece of this work too. You have to want to face it as part of treatment. In my case, I either avoid the things that are so important to me or I am going to have to face this; I am going to have to. I showed up and made that choice. I think that’s also a piece of it, knowing that that’s an opportunity for you to go and be kind and to train your brain in different ways.  HOW TO MAKE ERP ETHICAL AND RESPECTFUL We’re speaking directly now about some ideas and solutions to making ERP ethical and respectful. Are there other ways that someone who’s undergoing ERP, considering ERP, or has been through it—other things we might want to encourage them to do moving forward that might make this a more empowering and validating experience for them? Amy: That’s a great question because I think we can talk about it both from the perspective of clients who are looking for a new therapist as well as what therapists can do. But if we start first with clients and maybe you’re out there, and it’s been something you’ve either been hesitant to engage with because of some of these ideas about it being harmful or you’ve had a negative experience in the past, I do think that there is a mindset shift into feeling really empowered and really willing.  The empowerment part is coming in and bringing in-- your fears about ERP are also fears that can be worked on. If you’re white-knuckling from the first moment of like, “Okay, I’m in here, I know I’m supposed to do this. I already hate it and it hasn’t started,” sharing that with a clinician. I know I’m used to hearing that. I’m very used to hearing that. I’ve had folks come in who have been in supportive therapy, talk therapy, or other modalities that haven’t been effective for many, many years. There is a part of me-- I’m sorry, this is a tangent, but it’s a little soapboxy tangent. I feel like when I think about my clients who’ve had therapy for sometimes 10, 20 years and it hasn’t been effective, I don’t think we talk enough about how harmful that is for people, like putting your life on hold for 10 or 20 years. I don’t hear the word necessarily ‘traumatizing,’ but that can be harmful as well. People will go through that.  BE OPEN WITH YOUR ERP THERAPIST After these contortions to maybe even avoid ERP because it’s scary, they’ll come in, and I welcome them, saying, “I’m really nervous about this,” because guess what? Saying that aloud is a step in the direction of exposure. You’re owning it. And then having a therapist who can say, “I’m so proud of you for being here.” This is exposure number one. Sitting down on this couch, here we are. Well done, check and check. Because I think that a therapist who’s looking at exposure, not just as what’s on a strict hierarchy, or even from an inhibitory learning perspective, like a menu—exposure is what you’re doing day to day to help yourself get closer to the life that you want and the values you have. When you said, “I can eat anything because I want to nourish my body,” that’s a value. When I say ‘empowerment,’ like empowerment to discuss that with your therapist. And then that shift into willingness versus motivation or comfort or like, “Oh, I want to wait till the right moment,” or “Things are tough now. I don’t want to add an extra tough thing.” I know you’re not here to tell anybody, “Well, this is the way you should think.” But if there’s any room to cultivate even a nugget of willingness to say, “I can do something difficult, and I am willing to do difficult things on the path toward the life that I want,” those would be two things that come to mind right away. Kimberley: Yeah, I agree. It takes me to the second piece for a client. I think a huge piece of it is transparency with your therapist or clinician. There have been several times where we’ve discussed an exposure—again, this was more in my earlier days—agreed that that would be helpful for them, gone to do it, and then midway through it, them saying, “I felt like I had to please you, but I’m so not ready for this,” or “I was too embarrassed because this is such a simple daily task and I should be able to do it.” I think it’s okay to really speak to your therapist and share like, “I don’t know how I feel about this. Can we first just talk about if I’m ready?” We don’t want to do that to the degree of it becoming compulsive, but I want to really encourage people who are undergoing treatment of any kind to be as completely honest as you can. Amy: Right. I think that, again, it’s an interesting dynamic because people are coming to specialists because we do have the knowledge and awareness of protocols and so forth. But again, I think mental health is-- well, I wish all medical health folks were a little bit more open to these kinds of conversations too. But that being said, I think having that honesty and knowing that-- if you go in and you say, “Oh, I’m a little bit nervous,” and you’re getting pushback of, “Well, I’m the doc, this is what you do. Here’s step one, here’s step two,” frankly, there are going to be therapists who are like that regardless of modality.  It was interesting because I was talking to somebody about this and about—I think if we frame it as a question—"Is ERP inherently harmful” is a really different question than “Can ERP be harmful?” I think any modality implemented without that clinical touch can be potentially harmful.  I know your motto is, “You can do hard things.” That kind of shift as well is so powerful at the beginning of ERP. You’ve been transparent. You’ve said, “Look, here are my fears about this.”  And then often, what I will do as a clinician if people don’t get to that place of like, I” can do things through the discomfort, there’s no going around it,” is ask them about things. If they’re adults, it could even be like, “When you were a little kid, did you have any fears, and how did you get over those? What was that like?” Not always, of course, but 9 nine times out of 10, it is some kind of like, “Well, I did the thing.” Or sometimes it’s more complicated, “Well, I did the thing and then I got support from others, and then I learned more.” But I think people have this innate capacity to learn by changing behavior and to do things that are outside of their comfort zone, and that doesn’t have to mean way outside of their comfort zone. Often, that notion of these hard experiences or these difficult thoughts that you need to-- people will come in and feel like, “Well, I need not to be thinking about them.” That’s not really an option. Being a human with a full life, there are going to be things that are provocative. But I think I’ve heard you talk about this notion of shifting from wanting protection from negative thoughts or discomfort to almost willingness and acceptance. I love that as well. Kimberley: I agree. I want to also maybe back up a little bit and speak to that just a little bit. I do hear the majority of people saying this, coming from those who are seeking treatment from unspecialized people. Even this morning, people are emailing me saying, “I’m following this OCD coach online, and they’re saying, ‘Follow my six-month program and you will be OCD-free.’” That sounds good. I’ll do whatever you say if that’s what I can give you. There is a power dynamic.  But then you’re in the program and being told that you have literally two months to go and you better double down or you will fail my program. I think that urgency to get better can cause you to sometimes agree to things or seek out treatment from people who aren’t super trained and who aren’t taking an approach of, “Let’s practice being uncomfortable, let’s practice having every single emotion kindly and compassionately so that there is no emotion you can’t ever have in your lifetime through the darkest ages.” They’re more coming from a, “I’m on a timeline here and I have to get this done, so I’m going to do these things that are absolutely terrifying.” I think a lot of people are speaking to this. Amy: I think that’s right. A lot of times, people have been-- I think we, as a field, like mental health professionals, there’s this delicate balance of wanting to instill hope and really talk about like this works and to not overpromise or not simplify the circuitous way that we get there together as a therapist and client, because there are a lot of sound bites out there. I know you and I have talked about this. It’s like these “better in 12 weeks” or “better in with these five tips” or what have you. I think even looking at research, and I have a strong research background, I was training to be a researcher when I was in grad school. I think it’s important as well to remember that even with research, we are looking at-- if we say like, “Hey, this is a 12-week protocol that’s been effective.” Okay, what does effective mean? Does effective mean that you get to pick up your baby again? Or does it mean, oh no, it probably means an X amount reduction in the Y box? Does effective mean it was that amount of reduction for everyone? Well, no, it’s averages and things like that.  I can wear both hats and say, this is an incredibly empirically validated treatment that works for many people. It’s not going to work the same way for every person, so why would we as clinicians go in and be like, “Here’s a timeline?” You can’t do that. Kimberley: Yeah. Let’s speak to the therapist now. What can therapists be doing to make this a more effective, compassionate, and respectful practice? Do you have anything that you want to speak to first? Amy: Yes. I think that if we start at the beginning of therapy itself and the steps that you go through, the very first step is assessment because exposure is something that we know is very effective for anxiety, to a lesser degree, disgust, and not quite right feelings as well, and some sensory issues, to a lesser extent. But exposure is effective for certain things. We want to make sure that those are the things that are occurring. So, making sure because somebody can have OCD, or can have anxiety, or something like that and also have other things going on. I think sometimes when exposure is treated-- exposure and response prevention. I know we talk a lot about exposure, but even response prevention, that side of things, it’s just this one size fits all. Okay, something you don’t like doing, we’re going to expose you to it, and something that alleviates your distress, we’re going to eliminate those. If you’re doing that outside of the context of where it’s clinically indicated for OCD, i.e., areas that provoke obsessions and compulsive behaviors, then you’re really missing the target.  I know there’s been a lot of discussion about neurodiversity and for autistic people who may have routines and things like that or may have stereotypies or stimming behaviors, things that are pleasant for them or self-regulatory to really get a good assessment in there. Again, you’re not having people do exposures or engage in response prevention in places where it’s not clinically indicated. I think even if somebody has a trauma history, for something like PTSD, exposure is often, as I mentioned, a part of treatment protocols. The way in which we are doing those kinds of exposures and really centering the sense of agency in the client who’s had that sense of agency taken away by prior experiences is really important. I think assessment is the first thing that comes to mind, followed-- Kimberley: I would add-- sorry, I didn’t mean to cut you off, but I would add even assessment for depression. A lot of what we teach in ERP school for therapists and what I teach my staff is, if a client has depression, I might do more exposures around uncertainty and not around their worst-case scenario happening because sometimes that can make the depression come in so strong that they can’t get out of bed the next day. We can tailor exposure even to make depression, and so forth.  I think it is so important that we do get that assessment and really understand the big picture before we proceed. Even understanding other anxiety disorders, health anxiety, the history of trauma with health, and so forth, or even the things you were taught as a child, can be really important to understand before we proceed with exposure. Amy: I love that you added that in—the things that we were taught as a child—because I love this story. I mean, I love it and hate it, and you’ll understand why in a moment. But when I was on my internship—this was back in 2008, 2009—there was a fellow intern. He and I were co-presenting on a case, and we had the other interns. They were asking questions, and this was a makeshift IOP case. We were both doing a little bit of individual therapy, and people in the audience were asking questions, and somebody asked about childhood. This was an adult. The other intern said, “We don’t care about that stuff.” I said, “Time out, I care about it,” and we all laughed.  I get where he was coming from in the sense that he was like, “Hey, here are the symptoms, here’s the protocol for the symptoms, and it is important.” Like you said, I mean, even from a CBT, this is very consistent with CBT and how we form core beliefs and schemas and our ideas about the world and fairness and justice, and all of that is a part of it. We don’t want to lose the C part, the cognitive part as well in ERP. But I love that you said that about depression as well, because even something co-occurring can just nudge. It just nudges the way that we do exposure and so forth. Kimberley: Yeah. I think culturally too. Think about the different traditions that come with different cultures or religions. Sometimes some of their rituals can seem compulsive. If I didn’t know that that’s why they’re doing these, I could easily, as an untrained or ineffective therapist, be like, “Just expose yourself.” We’ve got to break this ritual, without actually understanding, like, is this actually a value-based ritual that you’re doing because of a religion or a culture or tradition that is in line with your values? I think that’s very, very important. After assessment, what would you say the next steps are? Amy: I think that-- and this is the part where I’m really going to own that. I get really excited, and I just want to jump into treatment. This is me, I’m calling myself out. But I think psychoeducation, that not only very clearly lays out the evidence and the why, like here’s the process, here’s why we’re asking you to do these things that are really difficult, here are the underlying patterns, and here’s what we’re looking out for, and so forth.  I think not only that, but also laying out very clearly what the expectations are. “This is how this is going to look,” and maybe at that point as well, clinicians saying—this is very collaborative—"I am here to provide this information, and then together we are going to formulate a treatment plan and formulate these exposures.” I have heard so many people who do a lot of ERPs say how proud they are by the end of therapy when clients come in and they say, “I was thinking I need to do this as my exposure.” They’re really taking that ownership.  I think not only again talking about the science and all the charts and things like that, but really talking about this as a collaborative, consensual process, that it’s like, “I’m handing this off to you, and this is going to be something you have for the rest of your life.” Kimberley: Yeah. I’ll tell a similar story. I had a patient who-- I’ll even be honest, I don’t think this was in my internship. This was in my career as an OCD therapist. But my client was just doing the exposures that he and I had agreed to. He would come back and be very frustrated with this process until he came to me and said, “I need you to actually stop and explain to me why I’m doing this.” I thought I had done a thorough job of that. I truly, really, honestly did. But he needed me to slow down and explain. We got out the PET scans of the brain, and I had a model of the brain. I showed him what part of the brain was being triggered and where the different parts of why-- from that moment, he was like, “I got you. I know what we’re doing. I’m on board now. I got this.”  I think that I was so grateful that he was like, “Hold up, you need to actually slow down and help me to understand because this still doesn’t make sense to me.” This was a very important conversation. In my case, I think it’s checking in and saying, “Do you understand why we’re doing this? Do you understand the science of this?” I think it’s so important. What else might a therapist do? Amy: I love that. I was just going to say, I love that you create that culture because that’s what I was talking about earlier. Sometimes we don’t quite get it right. And then it’s like, “What can I do better?” It’s such a powerful question.  Knowing the why of ERP and then also the why, like, why is it worth it for you? Why is this? ACT has these wonderful metaphors about it. We’ve heard the monsters on the bus analogy. You’re driving the bus, and all your symptoms are the passengers yelling out or different fears you might have. But so often we don’t talk about, where are you driving the bus toward? Where are you going?  I get misty when I think about this. I get almost a little teary because I think that people with OCD have such incredible imaginations, and yet, having OCD can make it so hard to dream and dream about what you truly want. Especially if it’s quite entrenched, it can just feel like, “Well, that’s a life that other people have. I don’t get to have that.” On the one hand, there’s this expansive imagination about illnesses, danger, harming others, or what have you. These things that are just dystonic—you don’t want to be thinking about them.  I love to see people exercise that other part of their imagination and really encourage them to dream because if you have that roadmap, or rather that end destination of what you want your life to be, those very concrete moments that you want-- for some people, it’s like, “I want to have a family,” or “I want to travel,” or “I want to have the freedom to be around whomever I want to be around, regardless of the thoughts that come up,” whatever it is. Sometimes it can feel scary to even dream and envision that, either through values work or if it’s somebody who had a later onset thinking about where were you heading before. How did this derail you? What were you heading toward? I think that’s really important as well. If we don’t do that-- I mean, frankly, I wouldn’t want to do anything if I didn’t know my why. Kimberley: No, agreed. I think that another thing—I often talk about this with my therapists in supervision—is one thing that I personally do-- and this is just me personally. Every therapist has their own way of doing it, but I often will ask my patients, “What kind of Kimberley do you need today?” I have the question as an opening where they can be like, “No, we’re good. Let’s just get to work.” We knew what we were going to do and so forth. My patients now know to say, “I need you to actually push me a little today.” They’re coming to me saying, “I want you to push you.” Or they’ll say, “I’m feeling very vulnerable today. I’m on my period,” or “It’s been a hard week,” or “I haven’t slept.” I don’t consider that me accommodating them. I consider that me being attuned to them. It might be that I might go, “Okay, but there’s been several weeks in a row that you’ve said that. Can we have a conversation?” It’s not that I’m going to absolutely let them off with avoidant compulsions, but I love offering them the opportunity to ask, what kind of Kimberley do you need? Sometimes they’ll say, “I need you to push me today, but I also need you to really encourage me because I have run out of motivation and I don’t have a lot.”  I think that as clinicians, the more we can offer an opening of, what is it that you’re ready for? What do you want to expose yourself today? Is there something coming up that you really need to be working on? I think those conversations create this collaborative experience instead of like, “I’m the master of treatment, and you’re my follower” kind of model. Amy: Right. I love that, and I love the idea that we can be motivational, encouraging, and celebratory in the face of exposure. Like exposures, I do feel like there has been a shift, and perhaps with the shift away from the strict habituation paradigm in the field, where it’s not like you have to just do the thing and be scared, be scared, be scared, be scared, be scared, and then it goes down. You can explore, “Hey, are you feeling stronger now? Are you feeling like I’m nervous, but I’m also curious?”  Again, some of this is just personal style, but I use a lot of humor. There are often a lot of inside jokes with clients and things like that. I don’t see that as incompatible with really good exposure work because you’re learning that you can be scared and laughing. You’re learning that you can feel discomfort and empowerment. These kinds of things are huge. But again, I think when I was newer to ERP, there was a little bit of like, “Nope, we’re not cracking a joke, because that would be avoiding negative emotion.” Kimberley: Yes. I remember that. Or being like, “I hope I don’t trigger them. I’m not going to [unintelligible].” The joke is what created an attunement and a collaboration between the two of us, which I think can be so beautiful. Another question I ask during exposure is, would you like to keep going? Would you like to make it a little harder? How could we? Even if we don’t, how might we? No pressure, but how might we make it so that they’re practicing this idea of being curious about making decisions on their own? Because the truth is, I’m only seeing you for 50 minutes a week. You have to then go and do this on your own. We want the clients, us as therapists, to model to them a curiosity of like, “Oh, it’s here.” Am I going to tell myself this is terrible and I can’t handle it? Or am I going to be curious about what else I could introduce? Would I like to send them a text to a loved one while I do this exposure? How would I like to show up? What values do I want to show up with? Those questions can take the terror out of it. Amy: Yes. I think that all of this is hitting on something. I’ve noticed that oftentimes this notion of ERP is traumatizing. Again, not to discount anybody’s personal experiences with it if that has been negative, but it’s often based on this caricature of ERP that all those things that we’re saying don’t need to have that element of consent. It needs to have that collaborative nature, really good assessment, really good psycho-ed. I think that’s something I just realized because I don’t like feeling defensive about things. If I feel defensive, I’m like, “Uh-oh, this is a me thing.” I think in this case, it’s because I’m seeing a lot of misinformation about ERP, or perhaps just poorly applied ERP. Kimberley: Yeah, for sure. I want to be respectful of time. We could make this into a whole training easily, but let’s end here on the healing because we’ve talked about everything today—ideas, concepts, mindsets, conceptualizations. But I also want to really make sure we are slowing down and creating a safe place where some people may actually, like you said, have had not great experiences. What might we do, and what might patients do in terms of healing moving forward? Amy: It’s a good question. There’s a couple of things. I think if it’s something that we were talking about with the transparency and the talking, number one, finding support and finding support from, ideally, somebody who’s going to understand ERP enough that they can speak to. That doesn’t have to be the type of therapy that you’re getting with them, but understands it well enough to have a conversation like this. Just knowing it should never feel disrespectful, it should never feel non-consensual, and if that was your experience, then—I mean, I hate to say this, but I do think it’s true—I know I would want to know if somebody felt that way. If somebody was working with me and they felt that way, I know that can be quite a burden for people to reach out to someone with whom they’ve had a negative experience.  But I think if you’re able to do that, that can be really helpful and really restorative, even if you’re not looking for a response, even if it’s just something that you’re letting them know. If you still have a relationship with that therapist, or let’s say it’s a clinic where you saw a therapist and you ended up moving to a different therapist, consider sharing it with them directly. I think we live in a very contentious culture of, “Well, I’ve made my mind up. That’s bad, and I’m moving on.”  But truly, I think validation also starts with self-validation. My hope is that even though we’re both clearly ERP therapists who believe very strongly in its positive application for many people, we want to validate that if you’ve felt any harm, that’s valid. I think that also starts with self-validation as a first means of healing and then seeking support. Kimberley: Yeah. What I think too, if you’re not wanting to do that, which I totally understand, sharing with your new clinician. One of the questions we have about our intake is what therapy was helpful and why, and what therapy wasn’t helpful and why. As you go with a new therapist, share with them, “This was my experience. This is what I found to be very effective. This is what I am very good at, but these are the things that I struggled with, and here’s why.” And then giving them the education of your process so they can help you with that, I think, is really important.  I think you hit the nail on the head—also being very, very gentle. The administering of therapy is not a perfect science; it’s a relationship. It’s not always going to go well. I wish it could. I truly wish there was a way we could, but that doesn’t mean that you’re bad, that therapy won’t work for you in the future, or that all therapists are similar to what your experience was. I think it’s important to know that there are many therapists who want to create a safe place for you. Amy: That’s so well said. Kimberley: Anything else you want to add before we finish up? Amy: No, no, I think this has been great. Again, anybody out there, I don’t know. I feel like, as therapists, sometimes we’re the holders of hope. If this could give you any hope, and again, ERP may not be the route that you choose, but just anyone who’s felt like therapy hasn’t been what you wanted, you deserve to find what’s going to feel like the best, most helpful fit. Kimberley: Amy, I have wanted to do this episode for months now, and there is no one with whom I would feel as comfortable doing it as much as you. Thank you for creating a place for me to have this very hard conversation and a conversation I think we need to have. I’m again so grateful for you, your expertise, your kind heart, and your wisdom. Amy: Thank you. 

Kimberley: Welcome back, Ethan Smith. I love you. Tell me how you are. First, tell me who you are. For those who haven’t heard of your brilliance, tell us who you are. Ethan: I love you. My name is Ethan Smith, and I’m a national advocate for the International OCD Foundation and just an all-around warrior for OCD, letting people know that there’s help and there’s hope. That’s what I’ve dedicated my life to doing. Kimberley: You have done a very good job. I’m very, very impressed. Ethan: I appreciate that. It’s a work in progress. Kimberley: Well, that’s the whole point of today, right? It is a work in progress. For those of you who don’t know, we have several episodes with Ethan. This is a part two, almost part three, episode, just catching up on where you’re at. The last time we spoke, you were sharing about the journey of self-compassion that you’re on and your recovery in many areas. Do you want to briefly catch us up on where you’re at and what it’s been like since we met last? Ethan: Yeah, for sure. We’ll do a quick recap, like the first three minutes of a TV show where they’re like, “So, you’re here, and what happened before?”  Kimberley: Previously on. Ethan: Yeah, previously, on real Ethans of Coweta County, which sounds super country and rural. The last time we spoke, I was actually really vulnerable. I don’t mean that as touting myself, but I said for the first time publicly about a diagnosis of bipolar. At that time, when we spoke, I had really hit a low—a new low that came from a very hypomanic episode, and it was not related to OCD. I found myself in a really icky spot. Part of the reason for coming or reaching that bottom was when I got better from OCD into recovery and maintenance, navigating life for the first time, really for the first time as an adult man in Los Angeles, which isn’t an easy city, navigating the industry, which isn’t the nicest place, and having been born with OCD and really that comprising the majority of my life. The next 10 years were really about me growing and learning how to live. But I don’t know that I knew that at the time. I really thought it was about, okay, now we’re going to succeed, and I’m going to make money, live all my dreams, meet my partner, and stuff’s going to happen because OCD is not in the way. That isn’t to say that that can’t happen, and that wasn’t necessary. I had some amazing life experiences. It wasn’t like I had a horrible nine years. There were some wonderful things. But one of the things that I learned coming to this diagnosis and this conclusion was how hard I was being on myself by not “achieving” all the goals and the dreams that I set out to do for myself. It was the first time in a long time, really in my entire life, that I saw myself as a failure and that I didn’t have a mental illness to blame for that failure. I looked at the past nine years, and I went, “Okay, I worked so hard to get here, and I didn’t do it. I worked so hard to get here in a personal relationship, and I didn’t get there. I worked so hard to get here financially, and I didn’t even come close." In the past, I could always say, “Oh, OCD anxiety.” I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t finish it. I dropped out. That was always in the way. It was the first time I went, “Oh wow, okay, this is on Ethan. This is on me. I must not be creative enough, smart enough, good enough, strong enough, or brave enough.” That line of thinking really sent me down a really dark rabbit hole into a really tough state of depression and hypomania and just engaging in unhealthy activities and things like that until I just came crashing down. When we connected, I think I had just moved from Los Angeles to Atlanta and was resetting in a way. At that time, it very much felt like I was taking a step back. I had left Los Angeles. It just wasn’t a healthy place for me at that time. My living situation was difficult because of my upstairs neighbor, and it was just very complicated. So, I ended up moving back to Georgia for work, and I ended up moving back in with my parents. I don’t remember if we talked about that or not, but it was a good opportunity to reset. At that time, it very much looked and felt like I was going backwards. I just lived for 10 years on my own in Los Angeles, pursuing my dreams and goals. I was living at home when I was sick. What does this mean? I’m not ready to move. I’m not ready to leave. I haven’t given up on my dream. What am I doing? I think if we skip the next three years from 2019 on, in retrospect, it wasn’t taking a step back; it was taking a step forward. It was just choosing a different path that I didn’t realize because that decision led to some of the healthiest, most profound experiences in my life that I’m currently living. I can look back at that moment and see, “Oh, I failed. I’ve given up.” This is backwards. In reality, it was such a beautiful stepping stone, and I was willing to step back to move forward, to remove myself from a situation, and then reinsert myself in something. Where I am now is I’m engaged, to be married. I guess that’s what engaged means. I guess I’m not engaged with a lawyer. I’m engaged, and that’s really exciting. Kimberley: Your phone isn’t engaged. Ethan: Yeah, for sure, to an amazing human being. I have a thriving business. I’m legitimately doing so many things that I never thought I would do in life ever, whether it had to do with bipolar or more prominently in my life, OCD, where I spent age 20 to 31, accepting that I was home-ish bound and that was going to be my life forever and that I’m “disabled” or “handicapped,” and that’s just my normal. I had that conversation with my parents. That was just something that I was going to have to live with and accept. I’m doing lots of things that I never expected to do. But what I’ve noticed with OCD is, as the stakes seem raised because you’re engaging yourself in so many things that are value-driven and that you care about, the stakes seem higher. You have more to lose. When you’re at the bottom, it’s like, okay, so what? I’m already like all these things. Nothing can go wrong now because I’m about to get married to my soulmate, and my business is doing really well. I have amazing friends, and I love my OCD community. The thoughts and the feelings are much more intense again because I feel like I have a lot more to lose. Whereas I was dismissing thoughts before, now they carry a little bit more weight and importance to me because I’m afraid of losing the things that I care about more. There’s other people in my life. It’s not just about me. With that mindset came not a disregard but almost forgetting how to be self-compassionate with myself. One of the things that came out of that bipolar diagnosis in my moving forward was the implementation of active work around self-compassion. I did workbooks, I worked very closely with my therapist, and we proactively did tons and tons of work in self-compassion. You can interrupt me at any time, because I’ll keep babbling. So, please feel free to interrupt. I realized that I was not practicing self-compassion in my life at all. I don’t know that I ever had. Learning self-compassion was like learning Japanese backwards. It was the most confusing thing in the world. The analogy that I always said: my therapist, who I’ve been with for 13 years, would say to me, “You just need to accept where you are and embrace where you are right now. It’s okay to be there. Give yourself grace.” She would say all these things.  I always subscribe to the likes of, “You have to work harder. You can’t lift yourself off the hook. Drive, drive, drive, drive.” That was what I knew. I tried to fight her on her logic. I said, “If there’s a basketball team and they’re in the finals and it's halftime and they’re down by 10, does the coach go to the basketball team and say, ‘Hey guys, let’s just appreciate where we are right now; let’s just be in this moment and recognize that we’re down by 10 and be okay with that.’” I’m like, “No, of course not. He doesn’t go in there and say that. He goes, ‘You better get it together and all this stuff.’” I remember my therapist goes, “Yeah, but they’re getting out of bed.” I’m like, “Oh, okay, that’s the difference.” They’re actually living their life. I’m completely paralyzed because I’m just beating myself down.  But what I’ve learned in the last three or four years is that self-compassion is a continuous work in progress for me and has to be like a conscious, intentional practice. I found myself in the last year really not giving myself a lot of self-compassion. There’s a myriad of reasons why, but I really wanted to come on and talk about it with you and just share some of my own experiences, pitfalls, and things that I’ve been dealing with.  I will say the last two years have probably been the hardest couple of years and the most beautiful simultaneously, but hard in terms of OCD, thoughts and triggers, anxiety, and just my overall baseline comfort level being raised because, again, there’s so many beautiful things happening. That terrifies me. I mean, we know OCD is triggered by good stress or bad stress. So, this is definitely one of those circumstances where the stakes seem higher. They seem raised, so I need more certainty. I need it. I have to have more certainty. I don't, really. I’m okay with uncertainty, but part of that component is the amount of self-compassion that I give myself. I haven’t been the best at it the last couple of years, especially in the last six months. I haven’t been so good. Kimberley: I think this is very validating for people, myself included, in that when you are functioning, it doesn’t seem like it’s needed. But when we’re not functioning, it also doesn’t feel like it’s needed. So, I want to catch myself on that. What are some roadblocks that you faced in the implementation of this journey of self-compassion or the practice of self-compassion? What gets in the way for you? Ethan: I will give you a specific example. It’s part of my two-year journey. In the last year and a half, I started working with a nutritionist. Physical health has become more important to me. It may not look like that, but getting there, a work in progress. But the reality of it is, and this is just true, I’m marrying a woman who’s 12 years younger than me. I want to be a dad. I can’t wait to have children. The reality of my life—which I’m very accepting of my current reality, which was something I wasn’t, and we were probably talking about that before—was like, I wanted to be younger. I hated that everything was happening now. I wasn’t embracing where I was and who I was in that reality. I’m very at peace with where I am, but the reality of my reality is that I will be an older father. So, a value-driven thing for me to do is get healthier physically because I want to be able to run around and play catch in 10 years with my kid. I would be 55 or 60 and be able to be in their lives for as long as I possibly could. I started working with a nutritionist, and for me, weight has always been an issue. Always. It has been a lifelong struggle for me. I’ve always yo-yoed. It’s always been about emotional eating. It’s always been a coping mechanism for me. I started working with a nutritionist. She’s become a really good friend, an influence in my life, and an accountability partner. I’m not on a diet or lifestyle change. There’s no food off the table. I track and I journal. But in doing this, I told her from the beginning, "In the first three months, I will be the best client you’ve ever had,” because that’s what I do—I start perfectly. Then something happens, and I get derailed. I was like, my goal is to come back on when I get derailed. That is the goal for me. And that’s exactly what happened. I was the star student for three months. I didn’t miss a beat. I lost 15 pounds. The goal wasn’t weight loss, mind you; it was just eating healthier and making more intentional choices. Then I had some OCD pipe up, my emotions were dysregulated, and I really struggled with the nutrition piece. I did get back on track.  Over the last year, I gained about seven pounds doing this nutrition. Over the last six months, I was so angry at myself for looking at my year’s journey. This is just an example of multiple things with self-compassion, but this is the most concrete and tangible I can think of at the moment. But looking at my year and looking at it with that black-and-white OCD brain and saying, “I failed. I’m a piece of crap. I’m not where I want to be on my journey. I’ve had all of the support I could possibly have. I have all the impetus. I want to be thinner for my wedding. I want to look my best at my wedding. What is wrong with me? In these vulnerable emotional states or these moments of struggle, why did I give in?” In the last couple of months, I literally refused to give myself any compassion or grace around food, screw-ups, mess-ups, and any of that. I refused. My partner Katie would tell me, “Ethan, you have to love--” I’m like, “No, I do not deserve it.” I’m squandering this opportunity. I just wholeheartedly refused to give myself compassion. Because it’s always been an issue, I’m like, “What’s it going to take?” Well, compassion can’t be the answer. I need tough love for myself.  I think I did this in a lot of areas of my life because, for me, I don’t know, there’s a stigma around self-compassion. Sometimes, even though I understand what it is on paper-- and I’ve read your workbook and studied a lot of Kristin Neff, who’s an amazing self-compassion expert. On paper, I can know what it is, which is simply embracing where you are in the moment without judgment and still wanting better for yourself and giving yourself that grace and compassion, regardless of where it is.  I felt like I couldn’t do that anymore because I wasn’t supposed to. I wasn’t allowed. I suddenly reframed self-compassion as a weakness and as an excuse rather than-- it was very much how I thought about it before I even learned anything about self-compassion, and I found myself just not a very loving person myself. My internal self-talk was really horrible and probably the worst. If somebody was talking to me like this, you always try to make it external and be like, “Oh, if somebody talked to you like this, would they be your friend? Would you listen to them?” I was calling myself names. I gave myself a room. It was almost in every facet of my life, and it was really, really eating at me. It took a significant-- yeah, go ahead. Kimberley: When I’m with clients and we’re talking about behaviors, we always talk about the complex outcomes of them, like the consequences that you were being hard on yourself, that it still wasn’t working, and so forth. But then we always spend some time looking at, let’s say, somebody is drinking excessively or doing any behavior that’s not helpful to them. We also look at why it was helping them, because we don’t do things unless we think they’re helping. What was the reason you engaged in the criticism piece? How did that serve you in those moments? Ethan: It didn't, in retrospect. In the moment, I think behaving in that way feels much like grabbing a spear and putting on armor. I don’t know if it’s stigma or male stigma. I mean, I’ve always had no problem being sensitive, being open to sensitivity, and being who I am as an individual. But with all of this good in my life, my emotions are more intense. My thoughts are more intense. My OCD is more intense. I felt like I needed to put on-- I basically defaulted to my original state of thinking before I even learned about self-compassion, which is head down, bull horns out, and I’m just going to charge through all of this because it’s the only way. It’s just like losing insight. When you’re struggling with OCD, it’s like you lose insight, you lose objectivity. It’s like there’s only one way through this.  I think it’s important to note, in addition to the self-compassion piece, this year especially, there’s been some physical things and some somatic symptoms that I’ve gotten really stuck on. I’m really grateful that-- and I love to talk about it with advocacy. It’s like, advocates, all of us, just because we’re speaking doesn’t mean that we have an OCD-free life or a struggle-free life. That’s just not it. I always live by the mantra: more good days than bad. That is my jam. I’m pleased to report that in the last 13 years, I’ve still had more good days than bad, but it doesn’t mean that I don’t have a tough month.  I think that in the last couple of years, I’ve definitely been challenged in a new way because there’s been some things that have come up that are valid. I have a lot of health anxiety, and they’ve been actual physical things that have manifested, that are legitimate things. Of course, my catastrophic brain grabs onto them. You Google once, and it’s over. I have three and a half minutes to live for a brown toenail, and-- Kimberley: You died already. Ethan: I’m already dead. I think it all comes back around to this idea of self-stigma, that even if you know all this stuff like, I’m not allowed to struggle, I’m not allowed to suffer, I have to be a rock, I have to be all things to all people—it’s all these very black and white rules that are impossible for a human being to live by because that’s just not reality. I mean, I think that’s why the tough exterior came back because it was like, “All right, life is more challenging.” The beautiful thing about recovery is, for the most part, it didn’t affect my functioning, which was amazing. I could still look at every day and go, “I was 70% present,” or “I was 60% present and 40% in my head, but still being mindful and still doing work and still showing up and still traveling.” From somebody that was completely shut down, different people respond in different ways to OCD. From somebody who came from completely shutting down and being bedridden, this was a huge win. But for me, it wasn’t a huge win in my head. It was a massive failing on my part. What was I doing wrong? How was it?  Just as much as I would talk every week on my live streams and talk about, it’s a disease, not a decision, it’s a disorder. I can say that all day long, but there are times when it tricks me, and I stigmatize myself around it.  It’s been very much that in the last year, for sure. It’s been extremely challenging facing this new baseline for myself. Because, let’s face it, I’m engaging in things that I’ve never experienced before. I’ve never been in a three-year relationship with a woman. I’ve never been engaged. I’ve never bought a house. Outside of acting, I’ve never owned a business or been a businessperson. I mean, these are all really big commitments in life, and I’m doing them for the first time.  If I have insight now and it’s like, I can have this conversation and say, “Yeah, I have every reason to be self-compassionate with myself.” These are all brand new things with no instruction manual. But it’s very easy to lose sight of that insight and objectivity and to sit there and say-- we do a lot of comparing, so it’s very easy to go, “Well, these are normal human things. Everybody gets married. Everybody works. This should be easy.” You talk about, like, never compare struggles, ever. If somebody walks to the mailbox and you can’t, never compare struggles. But that’s me going, “Well, this is normal life stuff. It’s hard. Well, what’s wrong with me?” Kimberley: Right. I think, for me, when I’m thinking about when you’re talking, I go in and out of beating myself up for my parenting, because, gosh, I can’t seem to perfect this parenting gig. I just can’t. I have to figure it out. What’s so interesting is when I start beating myself up and if I catch myself, I often ask myself, what would I have to feel if I had to accept that I’m not great at this? I actually suck at this. It’s usually that I don’t want to feel that. I will beat myself up to avoid having to feel the feelings that I’m not doing it right. That has been a gateway for me, like a little way to access the self-compassion piece. It’s usually because I don’t want to feel something. And that, for me, has been really helpful.  I think that when you’re talking about this perceived failure—because that’s what it is. It’s a perceived failure, like we’re all a failure compared to the person who’s a little bit further ahead of us—what is it that you don’t want to feel? Ethan: It’s a tough question. You’ve caught me speechless, which is rare for me. I’m glad you’re doing video because otherwise, this would be a very boring section of the podcast. For me, the failing piece isn’t as much of an issue. It was before. I don’t feel like I’ve failed. In fact, I feel like I’m living more into where I’m supposed to be in my values. I think for me, the discomfort falls around being vulnerable and not in control. I think those are two areas that I really struggle with. I always say, sometimes I feel like I’m naked in a sandstorm. That’s how I feel. That’s the last thing you want to be. Well, you don’t want to be in a sandstorm—not naked, but naked in a sandstorm—you don’t want to see me naked at all. That’s the bottom line. No nudity from Ethan. But regardless, you’re probably alone in the sandstorm. You feel the stinging and all of that. No, I’m just saying that’s what I picture it feels like.  Kimberley: Yeah, it’s an ouch. That feels like an ouch. Ethan: It feels like a big ouch. I think that vulnerability, for me, is scary. I’m not good at showing vulnerability. Meaning, I have no problem within our community. I’ll talk about it all day long. I’ll talk about what happened yesterday or the day before. I’ll be vulnerable. But for people who don’t know me, I struggle with it.  Kimberley: Me too. Ethan: Yeah. We all have our public faces. But vulnerability scares me in terms of being a human being, being fallible, and not being able to live up to expectations. What if I have to say I can’t today? Or I’m just not there right now and not in control of things that scare me. Those feelings, I think, have really thrown me a bit more than usual, again. I keep saying this because things feel more at stake, and they’re not, but I feel like I have so much more to live for. That’s not saying that I didn’t feel like I didn’t have a reason to live before. That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m simply saying, dreams come true, and how lucky am I? But when dreams come true with OCD, it latches onto the things we care about most and then says, “That’s going to be taken away from you. Here are all the things you have to do to protect that thing.” I think it’d been a long time since I’d really faced that.  To answer your question in short, I think, for me, vulnerability and uncertainty around what I can’t control, impacting the things that I care about most, are scary. Kimberley: I resonate so much with what you’re saying. I always explain to my eating disorder clients, “When you have an eating disorder and you hit your goal weight, you would think we would celebrate and be like, ‘Okay, I hit it. I’m good now.’” But now there’s the anxiety that you’re going to go backwards. Even though you’ve hit this ridiculous goal, this unhealthy goal, the anxiety is as high as it ever was because the fear of losing what you’ve got is terrifying. I think that’s so true for so many people. And I do agree with you. I think that we do engage in a lot of self-criticism because it feels safer than the vulnerability, the loss of control, or whatever that we have to feel. What has been helpful for you in moving back towards compassion? I know you said it’s like an up-and-down journey, and we’re all figuring this out as we go. What’s been helpful for you? Ethan: A couple of things. I think it’s worth talking about, or at least bringing up this idea of core fear. I’ve done some recent core fear work, just trying to determine, at the root of everything, what is my core fear? For me, it comes down to suffering. I’m afraid of suffering. I’m not afraid of dying; I’m afraid of suffering. I’m afraid of my entire life having to be focused on health and disease because that’s what living with OCD when I was really sick was about. It’s all I focused on. So, I’m so terrified of my life suddenly being refocused on that.  Even if I did come down with something awful, it doesn’t mean that my life has to solely focus on that thing. But in my mind, my core fear is, what if I have to move away from these values that I’m looking at right now and face something different? That scares the crap out of me.  The first thing around that core fear is the willingness to let that be there and give myself compassion and grace, and what does that look like, which is a lot of things. This fear—this new fear and anxiety—hasn't stopped me from moving forward in any way, but it sure has made it a little bit more uncomfortable and taken a little bit of the joy out of it. That’s where I felt like I needed to put on a second warrior helmet and fight instead of not resisting, opening myself up, and being willing to be naked in a sandstorm.  One of the things that I’ve learned most about is, as a business owner yourself, and if you’re a workaholic, setting boundaries in self-care is really hard. I didn’t really connect until this year the connection, the correlation between self-care and self-compassion. If I don’t have self-compassion, I won’t allow myself to give myself self-care. I won’t. I won’t do it because I don’t deserve it. There’s a very big difference between time off, not working, sleeping, but then actually taking care of yourself. It’s three different things. There’s working, there’s not working, and then there’s self-care. I didn’t know that either. It was like, “Well, I didn’t work tonight.” Well, that’s not necessarily self-care. You just weren’t in a meeting, or you weren’t working on something. Self-care is proactive. It’s purposeful. It’s intentional.  Giving myself permission to say no to things, even at the risk of my own reputation, because I feel like saying no is a big bad word, because that shows that I can’t handle everything at once, Kim. I can’t do it all. And that is a no-no for me. Like, no, no, no, everybody needs to believe that you can do everything everywhere all at once, which was a movie. That’s the biggest piece of it.  Recently, I was able to employ some self-care where it was needed at the risk of the optic seeming. I felt like, "Here I am, world. I’m weak, and I can’t handle it anymore." That’s what I feel like is on the other end.  I was sick, and I had been traveling every week since the end of March. I don’t sleep very well. I just don’t. When I’m going from bed to bed, I really don’t sleep well. I had been in seven or eight cities in seven or eight weeks. I had been home for 24 hours. This was only three weeks ago, and I was about to head out on my last trip, and the meeting that I was going for, the primary reason, got canceled, not by me. I was still going to meet with people that I love and enjoy. I woke up the day before I was traveling, and I was sick. I was like, “Oh man, do I still go?” The big reason was off the table, but there were still many important reasons to go, but I was exhausted. I was tired. I was sick. My body was saying, “Enough.” I had enough insight to say, I’m not avoiding this. This isn’t anxiety. This is like straight up.  When I texted the team—this is around work and things that I value—I was like, “I’m not coming.” I said, “I’m not coming.” They responded, “We totally understand. Take care of yourself.” And what I read was, “You weak ass bastard. You should suck it up and come here, because that’s what I would have done. Why are you being so lame and lazy?” That is what I read. This is just an instance of what I generally feel if I can’t live up to an expectation. I always put these non-human pressures on myself.  But making this choice, within two days, I was able to reset intentionally. This doesn’t mean I’m going to go to bed and avoid life. I rested for a day because I needed to sleep to get better. But the next few days were filled with value-driven decisions and choices and walks and exercising and getting back on nutrition and drinking lots of water and spending quality time with people that I care about, and my body and brain just saying, “You need a moment.” Within a couple of days, everything changed. My OCD quickly dropped back down to baseline. My anxiety quickly dropped back down. I had insight and objectivity.  When I went back to work later that week—I work from home—I was way more effective and efficient. But I wouldn’t have been able to do that. It was very, very hard to give myself self-compassion around making that simple decision that everybody was okay with. Kimberley: I always say my favorite saying is, “I’m sorry, but I’m at capacity right now.” That has changed my life because it’s true. It’s not even a lie. I’m constantly at capacity, and I find that people do really get it. But for me to say that once upon a time, I feel this. When I was sick, the same thing. I’m going to think I’m a total nutcase if I keep saying no to these people. But that is my go-to sentence, “I’m at capacity right now,” and it’s been so helpful.  Ethan: In max bandwidth.  Kimberley: Yes. What I think is interesting too is I think for those who have been through recovery and have learned not to do avoidant behaviors and have learned not to do compulsions, saying “I need a break” feels like you’ve broken the rules of ERP. They’re different things. Ethan: You hit them down. I was literally going to say that. It also felt when I made that decision that it felt old history to me, like old Ethan, pre-getting better. I make the joke. It was true. I killed my grandfather like 20 times while he was still alive. Grandpa died. I can’t come to the thing. I can’t travel. I can’t do the thing. This was early 2000s, but I had a fake obituary that I put into Photoshop. I would just change the date so I can email it to them later and be like, it really happened. I would do this. It’s like, here was a reason. It was 100% valid. Nobody questioned it. It was not based on OCD. It was a value-driven decision, and it felt so icky. My body felt like I might as well have sent a fake obituary to these people about the fake death of my grandfather. It felt like that. So, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Kimberley: I think it’s so important that we acknowledge that post-recovery or during recovery is that saying acts of compassion sometimes will feel like and sound like they’re compulsions when they’re actually not.  Ethan: That’s such a great point. I totally agree with you. Kimberley: They’re actually like, I am actually at capacity. Or the expectation was so large, which for you, it sounds like it is for me too—the expectation was so large, I can’t meet that either. That sucks. It’s not fun.  Ethan: No, it’s not. It’s not because, I mean, there’s just these scales that we weigh ourselves on and what we think we can account for. I mean, the pressure that we put on ourselves. And that’s why, like the constant practice of self-compassion, the constant practice of being mindful and mindfulness, this constant idea of-- I mean, I always forget the exact thing, but you always say, I strive to be a B- or C+. I can never remember if it’s a B- or C+, but-- Kimberley: B-. Ethan: B-. Okay, cool.  Kimberley: C+ if you really need it. Ethan: Yeah. To this day, I heard that 10 years ago, and I still struggle with that saying because I’m like, I don’t even know that I can verbally say it. Like, I want to be a B... okay, that’s good enough. Because it sounds terrifying. It’s like, “No, I want to be an A+ at everything I do.”  I know we’re closing in on time. One of the things I just wanted to say is thank you not only for being an amazing human being, an amazing advocate, an amazing clinician, and an okay mom, as we talked about. Kimberley: Facts. #facts. Ethan: But part of the reason I love advocating is I really didn’t come on here to share a specific point or get something across that I felt was important. I think it’s important as an advocate figure for somebody who doesn’t like transparency or vulnerability to be as transparent and vulnerable as possible and let people see a window into somebody that they may look at and go, “That person doesn’t struggle ever. I want to be like that. I see him every week on whatever, and he’s got it taken care of. Even when it’s hard, it isn’t that hard.”  For me, being able to come on and give a window into Ethan in the last six months is so crucial and important. I want to thank you for letting me be here and share a little bit about my own life and where I met the goods and the bads. I wouldn’t trade any of it, but I appreciate you. Kimberley: No, thank you. I so appreciate that because it is an up-and-down journey and we’re all figuring it out, myself included. You could have interviewed me and I could have done similar things. Like here are the ways that I suck and really struggle with self-compassion. Here are the times where I’ve completely forgotten about it as a skill until my therapist is like, “Uh, you wrote this book about this thing that you might want to practice a little more of.” I think that it’s validating to hear that learning it once is not all you need; it is a constant practice. Ethan: Yeah, it definitely is. Self-compassion is, to me, one of the most important skills and tools that we have at our disposal. It doesn’t matter if you have a mental health issue or not. It’s just an amazing way of life. I think I’ll always be a student of it. It still feels like Japanese backwards sometimes. But I’m a lot better at putting my hand-- well, my heart’s on that side, but putting my hand in my heart, and letting myself feel and be there for myself. I never mind. I’m a huge, staunch advocate of silver linings. I’ve said this a million times, and I’ll always say, having been on the sidelines of life and not being able to participate, when life gets hard and stressful, deep down, I still have gratitude toward it because that means I’m actually living and participating. Even when things feel crappy or whatever, I know there’ll be a lesson from it. I know good things will come of it. I try to think of those things as they're happening. It’s meaningful to me because it gives me insight and lets me know that there’ll be a lesson down the road. I don’t know if it’ll pay itself back tomorrow or in 10 years, but someday I’ll be able to look at that and be like, “Well, I got to reintroduce myself to self-compassion. I got to go on Kim Quinlan’s podcast, Your Anxiety Toolkit, and be able to talk to folks about my experience.” While I didn’t quite enjoy it, it was a life experience, and it was totally worth it for these reasons. Now I get to turn my pain into my purpose. I think that’s really cool. Kimberley: Yeah, I do too. I loved how you said before that moving home felt like it was going backwards, but it was actually going completely forward. I think that is the reality of life. You just don’t know until later what it’s all about. I’m so grateful for you being on the show. Thank you so much for coming on again. Ethan: Well, thanks for having me, and we’ll do one in another 200 episodes. Kimberley: Yes, let’s do it. Ethan: Okay.