SpyCast

SummaryJanosh Neumann (LinkedIn; Website) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss life in the FSB. He was born in the Soviet Union to parents in the “business.” What You’ll LearnIntelligence Why Jan defected to the United States How you get recruited and trained as a Russian intelligence officer What it is like to recruit and run agents in Moscow His take on what he did for the Russian state Reflections Learn to connect with anybody Making a life-changing and potentially life-ending decision And much, much more…Episode NotesHave you ever wondered how a Russian intelligence officer is trained? Ever wondered what it would be like to be a defector? Ever wondered what it’d be like to be given three choices, shoot yourself, get shot, or go on the run?If so, you’ll enjoy this week’s episode with Jan Neumann, who was born Alexy Yurievich Artamonov in the former Soviet Union. Jan’s father was a KGB internal affairs officer, and he would go on to join one of its successors, the FSB, or Federal Security Service, in which his wife also served. He speaks about a number of projects he is involved in, here in the States, where he now resides.And…Jan is the Co-Founder of RealSpyComics, which will be the first independent comic publisher dedicated to telling true intelligence stories. The International Spy Museum is a partner on this venture, because if there is one thing, we have a lot of – its spy stories!Quote of the Week"I'm not a big fan of ballet, but one of my sources was a big ballet fan. So, I had to go to the Bolshoi Theater, watch this again, and again, and again, I had to do some learning to be able to talk to the guy. And same thing was happening with the art as well. so going to some galleries and talk to the people, be sure that they're using at least same terminology as they are, to be able in the future to support the conversation, be interesting to this person whom you're trying to approach." – Janosh NeumannResourcesHeadline Resources Russian Spy, American Defector: with Janosh Neumann, YouTube, 2020 “Almost American, 1-5,” Aftershock Comics (2021-22) Andrew’s Recommendation Russian Intelligence, K. Riehle (NIU, 2022) [download entire book here for free)*SpyCasts* “Dealing with Russia” – Jim Olson (2022) “KGB Spy & NCIS Agent” – Jack Barsky & Keith Mahoney “The Spymaster’s Prism” – Jack Devine (2021) “The Corrupted State” – Ilya Zaslavskiy (2016) Beginner Resources Introduction to the Three Main Arms of Russian Intelligence, Globe & Mail (n.d.) [video] Putin, Power & Poison: Russia’s Elite FSB Spy Club, BBC (2018) [article] From Spy to President: Rise of Putin, Vox (2017) [video] Federal Security Service (FSB), Britannica (n.d.) [article] Books Putin’s People, C. Belton (William Collins, 2021) Return of the Russian Leviathan, S. Medvedev (Polity, 2019) Near & Distant Neighbors, J. Haslam (FS&G, 2016) The New Nobility, A. Soldatov & I. Borogan (Public Affairs, 2010) Memoirs Spymaster: My 32 Years in Espionage Against the West O. Kalugin (Basic, 2009) Special Tasks: A Soviet Spymaster, P. and A. Sudoplatov (Little Brown, 1994) Articles How Two Russian Defectors Helped the FBI, B. Denson, Newsweek (2016) Russian Defectors in Oregon, C. McGreal, Guardian (2015) Videos Lubyanka Federation: How the FSB Determines the Politics and Economics of Russia, Atlantic Council (n.d.) Washington Station: My Life as a KGB Spy, Y. Shvets, C-Span (1995) Primary Source Collections [All Wilson Center] Intelligence Operations in the Cold War The Mitrokhin Archive  The Vassiliev Notebooks *Wildcard Resource* KGB Members from Ahmed to Yuri, courtesy of Marvel Comics! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

SummaryChris Costa (LinkedIn; Website) and John Quattrocki (LinkedIn; Website) join Andrew to discuss coming in from the Cold War. They both had long illustrious careers in intelligence.What You’ll LearnIntelligence Two Cold War intelligence experiences Two perspectives on the U.S. intel. community in the 80’s & early 90’s Two reflections on the art and science of counterintelligence Two perspectives on serving on the National Security Council Reflections Career bookends  “Inadequate war termination” And much, much more…Episode NotesThe Windy City Episode. The Pritzker Military Museum and Library (PMML) in Chicago is well worth a visit. Located on Michigan Avenue overlooking Grant Park and Lake Michigan – there’s three additional attractions right there – you will not be disappointed. SPY teamed up with PMML to put on what would become this week’s episode.To discuss coming in from the Cold War intelligence landscape, Executive Director of SPY Chris Costa and AFIO board member John Quattrocki sat down for a panel discussion with Andrew. Chris, a former intelligence officer of 34 years with 25 of those in active duty in hot spots such as Panama, Bosnia, Afghanistan, and Iraq, is also a past Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for Counterterrorism on the NSC. John retired from the Senior Executive Service (SES - 4) as a Special Agent of the FBI with 19 years of operational experience against the Soviet Union/Russia, the Warsaw Pact, East Asia, Islamic extremist groups, and domestic terrorism. He also served on the NSC as the Director of Counterintelligence Programs.And…Pritzker Military Museum & Library’s mission is to “increase the public’s understanding of military history.” The International Spy Museum’s mission is to “educate the public about espionage and intelligence.” As you can see, then, in the military-intelligence-espionage national security continuum, we are pretty much as good a partnership as it gets. Quote of the Week"The government has seen the counterintelligence (CI) resources as a kind of a human capital escrow account to draw on for other elements to the government. And in, so doing, we have started to lend our CI bodies to the private sector. So, we are providing indirect cost support to the private sector for their CI responsibilities, rather than causing them to acquit all their own CI responsibilities." – John Quattrocki"I was not entirely satisfied with the idea of being between wars, because we were trained as infantry men. Our job was to prepare to go to war. And then I said, you know what? I wanna fight against our adversaries on a different plane, multilevel chess, if you will. And that's what brought me into the intelligence business." – Chris CostaResourcesHeadline Resource Video of the live event featuring Chris & John at PMML in Chicago, YouTube *SpyCasts* "The FBI Way" - Frank Figliuzzi (2021) “Army Intelligence” –Mary Legere (2016) “The CI Professional” – John Schindler (2016) Beginner Resources Cold War Overview, Khan Academy (n.d.) HUMINT vs. Counterintelligence, Clearance Jobs (2020) Books To Catch a Spy, J. Olson (GUP, 2019) U.S. Army CI Handbook (Dept. of Army, 2013) Double Cross, B. McIntyre (Crown, 2013) Articles The Best Books on Counterintelligence, J. Olson, Shepherd (n.d.) An Anatomy of Counterintelligence, A.C. Wasemiller, SII (1994) Terms & Definitions of CI, FAS (2014) Website Counterintelligence, FBI Primary Sources National CI Strategy, 2020-22 (2020) The Spy Who Loved Her (1994) A Review of US CI (1986) Church Committee Report (1976) Summary of the “CIA Family Jewels” (1975) *Wildcard Resource* “Gerontion,” T.S. Elliott (1920) This poem is the origin of the phrase often associated with CI: “the wilderness of mirrors.” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

SummaryAlexis Albion (LinkedIn) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss Kim Philby using some of his personal belongings as prompts. This episode on the Soviet mole inside MI6 coincides with SPY’s 20th Anniversary.What You’ll LearnIntelligence Why Philby has been called “The Spy of the Century” Philby the man, the ideologue, the spy, and the traitor Philby’s corrosive effect on Cold War British and American intelligence The cultural blind spot that allowed him to hide in plain sight then ride a storm of suspicion  Reflections Psychological complexity and contradiction Social stratification And much, much more…Episode NotesThe Cambridge Five are some of the most notable and notorious traitors in British history, and among them one man stands out in a way that has led some to call him, “The Spy of the Century,” MI6 officer Kim Philby. How did a quintessential Englishman who came from the “right” stock and went to the “right” schools become a Soviet mole? How did a genial chum come to haunt the corridors of British and American intelligence like a ghastly apparition? Dr. Alexis Albion is this week’s guest and the Curator of Special Projects at the International Spy Museum. She was formerly on the 9/11 Commission Report, the World Bank and the U.S. Department of State.In this is a first of a kind podcast, Alexis and Andrew sat down with some of Philby’s personal belongings drawn from our world-leading collection of artifacts on espionage and intelligence. And…Harold Adrian Russell Philby acquired the nickname “Kim” from the main character in Rudyard Kipling’s novel Kim, an orphan-boy-cum-spy in British India. Kim and Philby also have the Punjab in common, the novel begins in Lahore and Philby was born in Ambala, although the historic region was partitioned between Pakistan and India in 1947. The drive between Lahore and Ambala is roughly similar to that between Los Angeles and San Francisco.Quote of the Week"So why is he The Spy of the Century? Maybe the fact that he's not identified with any particular event or set of information [e.g., unlike Julius Rosenberg], but he's identified with this idea of betraying his Englishness is perhaps why he's been such a lasting figure because he almost is a touchpoint for the history of the 20th century and England. Great Britain's demise is a great power." Resources*Andrew’s Recommendation* My Five Cambridge Friends, Y. Modin (FS&G, 1994) A one-time KGB handler of the Cambridge 5 reflects on each of them as spies and as individuals *SpyCasts* Stalin’s Englishman: Guy Burgess – with Andrew Lownie (2016) The British the Joint Intelligence Committee – with Mike Goodman (2014) The Real History of MI6 – with Keith Jeffrey (2010) The Cambridge 5 – with Nigel West (2009) *Beginner Resources* Facts About Kim Philby, J. Hayes, Factinate (n.d.) Reading Material Culture [i.e., objects] (2020] India’s Partition in Pictures, BBC (n.d.) Books Spies & Traitors, M. Holzman (Pegasus, 2021) A Spy Among Friends, B. McIntyre (Crown, 2015) Kim, Rudyard Kipling (1901) Articles The Punjab Partition, S. Sultan, LSE (2018) Philby & Mistrust, M. Gladwell, New Yorker (2014) Documentary Why Was India Split into Two Countries, H. Roy, TED-Ed, YouTube (n.d.) MI6 Agent Turned Russian Spy, Philby, Timeline, YouTube (n.d.) Primary Sources Philby, I Spied for Russia from 1933 (1967) My Silent War, K. Philby (1967) The Disappearance of Kim Philby (1963)  Kim Philby (Peach): File 1 (1951-52) Constituent Assembly of India (1946) Primary Source Collections Indian Independence & Partition, UK National Archives *Wildcard Resource* Surnames & Social Mobility in England, 1230-2012 So, you thought social mobility in England has changed significantly since the Norman Conquest almost 1000 years ago – well, yes, and NO! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

SummaryJim Olson (Website) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss Putin and Russia. He had a 31-year career with the CIA including a tour in Moscow.What You’ll LearnIntelligence His views on Russia and its trajectory since the Cold War’s end His frank assessment of Putin and admiration for the Russian people His time in Moscow with 3 rotating KGB teams surveilling him His time as Chief of Station in the city of spies Vienna Reflections A “beautiful marriage” with American technology  Passing the generational baton And much, much more…Episode Notes“James Olson is a legend in the clandestine service,” not my description of this week’s guest, but that of former CIA Director and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates. Jim spent 31 years in the CIA, including tours in Moscow, Vienna & Mexico City, and rose to become Chief of CIA Counterintelligence. He is the author of Fair Play and To Catch a Spy. He joined Andrew to speak about Russia. He speaks the language, spent time living and working in the country, where he was involved in one particularly daring operation that he shares with us in the episode, and he faced off against the organization that would go on to become the current SVR and FSB – the KGB.Jim has had Vladimir Putin on his radar for many a year, and he doesn’t pull any punches reflecting on his trajectory in this episode.And…Jim grew up in a small town in Iowa where, “we didn’t really follow international affairs, we joked among ourselves…if it didn’t affect the price of corn, we weren’t really interested.” My, how things changed for Jim.Quote of the Week"I have tremendous respect for the Russian people. They are long suffering. I've gotten to know many Russians. I've worked with a lot of Russians. I found them to be people who had a real soul. They had a human qualities that I could admire, but they were locked into a repressive regime that did not allow them to express any of those human sentiments that that they felt." – Jim OlsonResourcesHeadline Resource To Catch a Spy: The Art of Counterintelligence, J. Olson (GUP, 2019) Fair Play: The Moral Dilemmas of Spying, J. Olson (Potomac, 2008) *SpyCasts* “The Spymaster’s Prism” – with Jack Devine (2021) “Russians Among Us: The Hunt for Putin’s Spies” – with Gordon Corera (2020) “The Corrupted State” – with Ilya Zaslavskiy (2016) “Putin’s End Game in Ukraine” – with KGB General (Retd.) Oleg Kalugin (2014) Beginner Resources To Catch A Spy with J. Olson, C-SPAN (2020) [9:44 minutes]  The Best Books on Counterintelligence, J. Olson, Shepherd (n.d.) Putin’s Revisionist History of Russia and Ukraine, I. Chotiner, New Yorker (2022) Books Putin’s People, C. Belton (Picador, 2022) Operative in the Kremlin, F. Hill & C. Gaddy (Brookings, 2015) One Soldier’s War in Chechnya, A. Babchenko (Portobello, 2008) Articles Former CIA Leader Said LinkedIn is Like a Candy Store to China, C. Burgess, ClearanceJobs (2022) New Documentary Series Explores Pollard Affair, H. Brown, Jerusalem Post (2022) J. Olson First Recipient of “The Spirit of Aggieland – 41 Award,” J. Adams, KAGS (2022) Ex-CIA Chief on Accused Chinese Spymaster, P. Christian, WCPO (2021) Videos To Catch A Spy with J. Olson, Houston World Affairs Council (2020)Primary Sources James Collins Oral History, US Ambassador to Soviet Union, 1997-2001 (n.d.) Jack Matlock Oral History, US Ambassador to Soviet Union, 1987-1991, (n.d.) Ukraine: Memo. On Security Assurances (1994) Belovezha Accords, Eyewitness Account of Former Belarus Soviet Leader (1991) *Wildcard Resource* What Classic Russian Literature Can Teach us about Putin’s War on Ukraine  Putin is a big fan of Dostoevsky – who underwent a mock execution & four years of hard labor in Siberia for belonging to a literary discussion group feared by the Tsarist autocracy.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

SummaryJohn Gise joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss the Wall of Spies Experience. It features over 200 stories of espionage and sabotage in America since 1776.What You’ll LearnIntelligence America’s first Spymaster The Founding Father of American Counterintelligence  The New Yorker who adopted a Southern accent so she could spy on the Confederacy  The escaped enslaved man who was described as a “walking order of battle chart”  Reflections Educating a workforce on its past Dreaming about history And much, much more…Episode NotesThe Wall of Spies Experience features over 200 stories of espionage, sabotage and betrayal from American history. The physical wall is a private museum on an intelligence community facility, but the second installment of the Digital Wall of Spies has recently been released. Thus far we have the Revolutionary War and the Civil War, with WWI coming up next. Whether you want to get a sense of the evolution of espionage in America, dork out on a particular historical period, or just have a browse – we are sure you will agree that this National Counterintelligence & Security Center (NCSC) sponsored exhibit is a welcome contribution to the public’s understanding of the history of intelligence and espionage.This week’s guest is John Gise, for whom the Wall of Spies was a labor of love. He has had a number of different roles across the US government, including a stint in Special Forces, but for now, spies from American history are with him while awake…and while asleep. And…If you’ve ever wondered why you can’t visit the Statue of Liberty’s torch, you need to listen to the teaser John provides at the end of this episode on the next installment of the Digital Wall of Spies (we’ll give you a clue…it’s the opposite of White Jerry).Quote of the Week"We've now posted online…the digital revolutionary war spies, the digital civil war spies…And we're talking in the revolutionary war about 30 continental army spies and British spies…for the civil war, it's about 25 Union spies and Confederate spies. And many of those spies are also Scouts, right? Collecting information, going behind enemy lines, conducting reconnaissance missions and collecting intelligence for their superiors." – John Gise.ResourcesHeadline Resource The Wall of Spies Experience (Digital) *SpyCasts*  “Birthplace of American Espionage” - Spy Sites of Philadelphia (2021) George Sharpe and the BMI: A Conversation with Peter Tsouras (2019) Washington’s Spies: An Interview with Alexander Rose (2015) Spies, Patriots, and Traitors: American Intelligence in the Revolutionary War (2014) Intelligence and Espionage in the U.S. Civil War (2012) Books The Creation of American Military Intelligence in the Civil War, P. Tsouras (Casemate, 2018) Spies, Patriots, and Traitors: American Intelligence in the Revolutionary War (GUP, 2014) The Secret War for the Union, E. Fishel (Houghton, 1996) Articles Audacious Confederate Spies, G. Brockell, WaPo (2022) The Wall of Spies, M. Rosenwald, WaPo (2019) Intelligence Agency Unveils New Weapon to Deter Spies – A Museum, J.J. Green, WTOP (2019) Primary Sources John McEntee to George H. Sharpe [Charley Wright’s intel on location of Lee's army] 1863) Lincoln and the Baltimore Plot – Pinkerton Papers [Kate Warne] (1861) The Federalist Papers: No:64 (John Jay, 1788) Minutes of the Commissioners for Detecting and Defeating Conspiracies (1778-1781) Benedict Arnold Letter to John André (1780) John André Letter to Joseph Stansbury [for Benedict Arnold] (1779) Letter, George Washington to Benjamin Tallmadge (1779) *Wildcard Resource* Fraunces Tavern, New York City If you want to connect to Revolutionary War espionage, grab an ale, a seat by the fire, and muse (they also have a museum!) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

SummaryVikram Sood (Twitter, Blog) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss intelligence in the world’s largest democracy. He was the chief of India’s Research & Analysis Wing (R&AW). What You’ll LearnIntelligence The intelligence landscape in India  China, Pakistan, and the intelligence challenges in the region The founding and evolution of the Research and Analysis Wing  The pressure involved in the top job and being responsible to the Prime Minister Reflections The power of narratives  Spies can be sensitive souls too And much, much more…Episode NotesThis is the final installment of our month long special on SPY CHIEFS, featuring Vikram Sood. former Director of India’s foreign intelligence agency, the Research & Analysis Wing (RA&W). This episode from the vault was recorded during the darkest days of the pandemic when the International Spy Museum was closed, infections and deaths were sky high, and Andrew was at home in his living room with Vikram at his in New Delhi. So, is the R&AW similar to the CIA or MI6 or both? Does it have a covert action capability? How focused is it on China and Pakistan? Who does the Director report to? To hear the answers tune in to listen to an Indian Spy Chief who was in office in the critical years 2000-2003. Vikram was in the intelligence business for more than thirty years, since leaving as the professional head of India’s foreign intelligence agency he went on to have a successful second career at the think-tank, Observer Research Foundation, which is based in New Delhi. He is the author of two books (see below).And…Depending on the source, India has more, a little less, or roughly the same number of Muslims as Pakistan. An incredible fact when you consider that Pakistan is generally in the top five for having the largest population in the world. In fact, India has a larger population than the United States, Pakistan, Indonesia, Brazil and Nigeria combined. Quote of the Week"There is immense tension in the job because anything can go wrong any day and you will be held responsible if there is another bomb blast somewhere else. But if the leadership is supportive and it's understanding, and also contributes to helping you decide things, takes decisions for you that need politically clearances. That helps a lot that takes away the anxieties, it keeps the blood pressure down." – Vikram SoodResourcesHeadline Resource The Ultimate Goal: R&AW Chief Deconstructs how Nations Construct Narratives (Harper India, 2020) The Unending Game: A Former R&AW Chief’s Insights into Espionage (Penguin, 2018) Beginner Resources [Video] How Was R&AW Started: Story of India’s External Intelligence Agency, WION (2022) [Article] RAW: A History of India’s Covert Operations, Yatish Yadav, New Indian Express (2020) Books The War that Made R&AW, A. Nandakumar (Westland, 2021) JFK’s Forgotten Crisis: Tibet, the CIA and the Sino-Indian War, B. Riedel (BIP, 2015) Intelligence Elsewhere, P. Davies & K. Gustafson (GUP, 2013) The Kaoboys & R&AW, B Raman (Lancer, 2012) India’s External Intelligence, V.K. Singh (ManasPub, 2007) Articles History of RAW, Sachidananda Mohanty, Frontline (2022) A Peek Into India’s IB and RAW, Amjed Jaaved, Pakistan Today (2022) Inside R&AW, Rahul Bedi, The Wire: India (2020) Quiet Americans in India, P. McGarr, Diplomatic History, 38(5), 2014 (1046-1082) Videos Ex-Israel Spy Chief Talks Intelligence Cooperation with India, The Quint, YouTube (n.d.) Ex R&AW Chief Vikram Sood Gives a Glimpse of the World of Spies, The Quint, YouTube (n.d.) *Wildcard Resource* “The James Bond of India” Real-life spy Ajit Doval who spent years undercover in Pakistan He is currently the National Security Advisor of India!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

SummaryEllen McCarthy (Twitter; LinkedIn) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss her career and time as head of the State Department’s intelligence agency. INR is one of the 18 U.S. intelligence agencies.What You’ll LearnIntelligence Her start as a Soviet submarine analyst in the Office of Naval Intelligence  Bringing the U.S. Coast Guard intel. program into the Intelligence Community (IC)  Working for DoD and Geospatial-Intelligence Why she admires the Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR)  Reflections Government/for-profit/non-profit life Managing complexity and change  And much, much more…Episode NotesImagine seeing a pyramid from different angles and different heights instead of from one vantage point? You get a better sense of what it truly looks like, its dimensions, colors, idiosyncrasies, and the shadows it casts, right?Ellen McCarthy has seen more of the U.S. Intelligence Community (IC) pyramid than most: she started as a junior analyst for the U.S. Navy Office of Naval Intelligence and ended up as the head of the State Dept.’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR). Along the way, she was with the U.S. Coast Guard, in the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence, and at the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency. Quite the journey, I am sure you will agree…And…INR has been called the “biggest little intelligence shop in town” and its morning intelligence summary, “Better than Wheaties.” The NYT called it the “least wrong” intelligence agency on Iraq possessing weapons of mass destruction (WMD), and it has been credited for a more accurate assessment of Ukraine’s ability to withstand Russia than its peers. “They get paid attention to because they’re good and they tend to be contrarian,” notes a former chair of the National Intelligence Council. How do they manage this? Well, big question, but the deep, deep expertise of their staff – who are on average on their regional or functional area for over a decade – as well as an “intolerance for mediocrity” would be good places to start.Quote of the Week"The Geographer of the United States sits in INR. I don't think a lot of people know that. So, when there's a boundary dispute or you've got countries trying to build islands, it's INR that's actually working what the legal boundaries are. The other thing that INR does that a lot of folks don't know about is polling. Polling in the intelligence community is conducted at INR…And I will tell you that the polling capability at INR is the best I've ever seen." – Ellen McCarthy Resources*SpyCasts* “State Department Intelligence: Inside the INR” – INR Leadership (2020)Beginner Resources Bureau of Intelligence and Research, Wikipedia [webpage] Learn About the Smallest Organization in the IC, YouTube (n.d.) [1:45 minute] Geographer of the United States, YouTube, (2011) [13:24 minute] Books “Intelligence Informs Policymaking at DoS: INR,” T. King in T. Juneau, ed. Strategic Analysis in Support of Policymaking, R&L (2017), pp. 95-110. Reducing Uncertainty: Intelligence Analysis & National Security, T. Fingar, SUP (2011) INR, Intelligence & Research at State, U.S. DoS (1973) Article The U.S. Intelligence Community Needs a ‘Wild Bill’ Moment, E. McCarthy & M. Scott, Cipher Brief (2021)Video SPYCHAT: Ellen McCarthy & Chris Costa, YouTube (2021) The New IC: Ellen McCarthy Keynote, YouTube (2019) FedMentor: NGA’s Ellen McCarthy, YouTube (2014) Primary Sources INR: 2025 Strategic Plan (2022) Oral History with Teresita Schaeffer (1998) Oral History with Thomas F. Conlon (1992) Oral History with Frank Burnet, (1990) Oral History with Daniel Zachary (1989) *Wildcard Resource* The Ralph J. Bunche Library State Dept. Library named after OSS intelligence analyst, diplomat & Nobel Prize Winner Dr. Bunche Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

SummaryEllen McCarthy (Twitter; LinkedIn) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss her career and time as head of the State Department’s intelligence agency. INR is one of the 18 U.S. intelligence agencies.What You’ll LearnIntelligence Her start as a Soviet submarine analyst in the Office of Naval Intelligence  Bringing the U.S. Coast Guard intel. program into the Intelligence Community (IC)  Working for DoD and Geospatial-Intelligence Why she admires the Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR)  Reflections Government/for-profit/non-profit life Managing complexity and change  And much, much more…Episode NotesImagine seeing a pyramid from different angles and different heights instead of from one vantage point? You get a better sense of what it truly looks like, its dimensions, colors, idiosyncrasies, and the shadows it casts, right?Ellen McCarthy has seen more of the U.S. Intelligence Community (IC) pyramid than most: she started as a junior analyst for the U.S. Navy Office of Naval Intelligence and ended up as the head of the State Dept.’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR). Along the way, she was with the U.S. Coast Guard, in the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence, and at the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency. Quite the journey, I am sure you will agree…And…INR has been called the “biggest little intelligence shop in town” and its morning intelligence summary, “Better than Wheaties.” The NYT called it the “least wrong” intelligence agency on Iraq possessing weapons of mass destruction (WMD), and it has been credited for a more accurate assessment of Ukraine’s ability to withstand Russia than its peers. “They get paid attention to because they’re good and they tend to be contrarian,” notes a former chair of the National Intelligence Council. How do they manage this? Well, big question, but the deep, deep expertise of their staff – who are on average on their regional or functional area for over a decade – as well as an “intolerance for mediocrity” would be good places to start.Quote of the Week"The Geographer of the United States sits in INR. I don't think a lot of people know that. So, when there's a boundary dispute or you've got countries trying to build islands, it's INR that's actually working what the legal boundaries are. The other thing that INR does that a lot of folks don't know about is polling. Polling in the intelligence community is conducted at INR…And I will tell you that the polling capability at INR is the best I've ever seen." – Ellen McCarthy Resources*SpyCasts* “State Department Intelligence: Inside the INR” – INR Leadership (2020)Beginner Resources Bureau of Intelligence and Research, Wikipedia [webpage] Learn About the Smallest Organization in the IC, YouTube (n.d.) [1:45 minute] Geographer of the United States, YouTube, (2011) [13:24 minute] Books “Intelligence Informs Policymaking at DoS: INR,” T. King in T. Juneau, ed. Strategic Analysis in Support of Policymaking, R&L (2017), pp. 95-110. Reducing Uncertainty: Intelligence Analysis & National Security, T. Fingar, SUP (2011) INR, Intelligence & Research at State, U.S. DoS (1973) Article The U.S. Intelligence Community Needs a ‘Wild Bill’ Moment, E. McCarthy & M. Scott, Cipher Brief (2021)Video SPYCHAT: Ellen McCarthy & Chris Costa, YouTube (2021) The New IC: Ellen McCarthy Keynote, YouTube (2019) FedMentor: NGA’s Ellen McCarthy, YouTube (2014) Primary Sources INR: 2025 Strategic Plan (2022) Oral History with Teresita Schaeffer (1998) Oral History with Thomas F. Conlon (1992) Oral History with Frank Burnet, (1990) Oral History with Daniel Zachary (1989) *Wildcard Resource* The Ralph J. Bunche Library State Dept. Library named after OSS intelligence analyst, diplomat & Nobel Prize Winner Dr. Bunche Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

 SummaryMike Burgess (Website; Twitter) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss his agency and the enduring strength of Australia’s alliances. ASIO is the second intelligence agency he has directed.What You’ll LearnIntelligence The Australian idea of “mateship” in the intelligence context The Australian intelligence landscape  The United States as its most important strategic alliance The enduring value and historical uniqueness of the FIVE EYES alliance Reflections How Man. Utd. might help us understand leadership The frustrations of watching spy fiction on TV as a practitioner  And much, much more…Episode NotesThe top job: what is it like? what are the joys and pains of leadership? This is not like leading a business, though, or a soccer team, this is protecting the country and its citizens from terrorism, espionage, sabotage, and external interference. Such is the charge of the Australian Security Intelligence Organization (ASIO).To address these questions, Andrew sat down with Mike Burgess, who was formerly the Director-General of the Australian Signals Directorate (ASD), comparable to GCHQ and the NSA – an agency would serve in for over 20 years. They also discussed the Australian intelligence landscape and its most important alliances, such as the U.S. and FIVE EYES and some of its important regional relationships. And…Mike and Andrew hit it off, especially when discussing Alex Ferguson and how soccer can help us understand management and leadership. Ferguson won more titles in soccer than any other manager, at 49, and he is generally considered the GOAT or a strong contender. Of course, trophies are extremely important, but they do not capture everything. If you are looking for an example of transformational change of an entire organization and its subsequent culture, HBS could do a lot worse than draft a case study on the legendary leadership of Liverpool F.C. by Bill Shankly. He made people believe.Quote of the WeekTalking about FIVE EYES, that's one of those foundational partnerships in our relationships…It's unique because…it was born through WWII. It's an interesting phenomenon because it started its life as a signals intelligence relationship…at its core, it's an intelligence relationship that really has made a difference to each of those five nations’ respective national security…And we do trust each other, and we share our most intimate secrets.Resources*SpyCasts* “Keeping Secrets/Disclosing Secrets” – with Spy Chief turned DG of Australia’s National Archives David Fricker (2022) “Desperately, Madly in Love” – Brett Peppler and the Australian IC (2021) Beginner Resources Australian Intelligence Community, Wikipedia [webpage] Australian Security and Intelligence Organization (ASIO) [Website] Why I Spy, M. Burgess, YouTube (n.d.) [60 second video] Intelligence Professionals FAQ, ASIO, YouTube (n.d.) [2:32 minute video] Virtual Exhibition Spy: Espionage in Australia (NAA)Books Spies & Sparrows: ASIO & the Cold War, P. Deery (2022) Between Five Eyes, A. Wells (2020) Intelligence & the Function of Government, D. Baldino & E. Crawley (2018) The Official History of ASIO – 3 Volumes, D. Horner, J. Blaxland, R. Crawley (2014/2015/2016) Report Intelligence Oversight: A Comparison of the FIVE EYES Nations, C. Baker et.al., Parliament of Australia (2017) Primary Sources Director-General’s Annual Threat Assessment (2022) Foreign Espionage: An Australian Perspective, ASIS DG (2022) ASIO Internal Message on Vietnam War (1970) Surveillance of the Aarons, Communist Party Australia (1966)  Counterespionage Film, ASIO (1963) Citizenship for former Soviet Spies, Petrovs (1956) *Wildcard Resource* Sydney vs. Melbourne: The Real Canberra Story If you’ve ever wondered why Canberra is the capital… Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

SummaryPaul Lashmar (Twitter, Website) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss investigative journalism and intelligence. He is a former UK Reporter of the Year. What You’ll LearnIntelligence The similarities and differences between spooks and journalists  The role Watergate played for his generation of journalists  Intelligence overseers as “Ostriches,” “Cheerleaders,” “Lemon-suckers,” or “Guardians” Bellingcat, Spycatcher and the “Zinoviev Letter” Reflections The long shadow of the Second World War Investigative journalism in democratic societies And much, much more…Episode Notes“Cardiac stimulating experiences,” is how this week’s guest describes meeting sources in smoky IRA pubs in Belfast all on his lonesome. But he also met sources in the oak-paneled clubs of Whitehall and in many other places around the world. So, what has our guest distilled from his long career examining intelligence agencies? What are the types of relationships spooks and journalists have had with one another? What are the similarities and differences between both tribes?To answer these questions and more, Andrew sat down with investigative reporter and current Head of the Dept. of Journalism at City, University of London, Paul Lashmar. Paul has worked across the media landscape, as a producer for the BBC, as a broadcast journalist with British current affairs television program World in Action, and as an investigative journalist for the Observer newspaper. He won Reporter of the Year in the 1986 UK Press Awards. He is the author of Spy Flights of the Cold War, Britain’s Secret Propaganda War, and most recently Spies, Spin and the Fourth Estate. And…World in Action was a legendary investigative TV program in the U.K. It’s programming led to the resignation of a Home Secretary, one of the Great Offices of State in the UK; the release of the Birmingham Six, who were wrongfully convicted of planting IRA bombs; and the exposure of Combat-18, a violent neo-Nazi movement. It would also publish the original story of the Spycatcher allegations that the head of MI5 was a Soviet mole and that there had been a joint MI5-MI6 plot to overthrow Labor Prime Minister Harold Wilson. Paul co-wrote that 1984 episode. For all these reasons and more, it was rarely out of the courts. The last series was broadcast in 1998. Quote of the Week"They would meet you in an up-market club in the center of London…it's leather Chesterfields, gentleman walking around getting your gin and tonic. It was all of that, in those days it was all informal…there are now in most newspapers, somebody who is usually appointed by the editor who maintains those connections… it's a sensible arrangement." – Paul LashmarResourcesHeadline Resource Spies, Spin and the Fourth Estate, P. Lashmar (EUP, 2021)*SpyCasts* The Women of NatSec Journalism – 6 Leading Journalists (2017) Covering Intelligence (2015) Part 1: with Mark Mazzetti Part 2 – with Ali Watkins Part 3 – with Greg Miller Books Zinoviev Letter, G. Bennett (OUP, 2020) Spies and the Media in Britain, R. Norton-Taylor (IBT, 2018) Spinning Intelligence, R. Dover and M. Goodman (CUP, 2009) Spycatcher, P. Wright (Viking, 1987) Beginner Articles UK Officials Still Blocking SpyCatcher Files, Guardian (2021) The Zinoviev Letter, FT (2018) When Spy Agencies Didn’t Exist, BBC (2014) Articles Why Good Investigative Journalism Matters (2022) Obituary: Peter Wright, Independent (1995) Documentary “World in Action,” YouTube (n.d.)Primary Sources The Spy Who Never Was [World In Action] (1984) Moscow Orders to Our Reds [Daily Mail Accusation] (1924) Zinoviev Denies Writing Letter (1924) Zinoviev Narrative of Facts [TUC & Labour Party] (1924) *Wildcard Resource* How Bellingcat is Using TikTok to Investigate the War in Ukraine Investigative journalism, Bellingcat style! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices