The Legalpreneurs Sandbox

It's not enough to be innovative or innovate! It's not a one off proposition. In the legal industry today, it's increasingly about continuous improvement, agility and embedding these core capabilities in law firms/legal departments so they underpin and drive the way business is done every day - this IS the new firm/organisational culture. But, so much change so quickly can also be exhausting.    We asked Maya Markovich, Chief Growth Officer at Dentons' Nextlaw Labs, how firms/organisations are introducing, advancing and sustaining legal innovation - and a whole lot more! Nextlaw Labs was a pioneer in the law firm R&D space and has continued to experiment, iterate, expand and lead despite increased activity and competition in the market.    Topics we discussed included: The difference between an incubator, accelerator and legal R&D department The difference in the lawyer, legalpreneurs and entrepreneurial mindset The impact and importance of a multidisciplinary approach to innovation The role of intrapreneurs and entrepreneurs in law firms and legal departments The role, function and impact of Chief Innovation Officers and innovation committees and, what they need to thrive Whether or not law firms should be investing in legaltech development How collaboration is the glue for law firms/legal departments and multidisciplinary approaches to the development of legaltech and the implementation of innovative projects What’s driving the current significant increase in investment in legaltech/AI globally and if the legal industry is approaching a tipping point And, what’s the BIG thing on the legaltech/AI or the legal innovation horizon in the next three years.   Thank you, Maya, for an amazing conversation and for hosting us in sunny downtown Oakland, California!

As 2019 draws to a close, it seemed like a good time to celebrate our 10th TLPS podcast episode looking back on how the legal industry fared in terms of legaltech and innovation: What happened? What surprised us? What didn’t happen and maybe disappointed us? And, what should we watch for in 2020? We were joined on this partly reflective and partly prospective journey by an amazing group of legaltech/innovation gurus: Caryn Sandler, Partner and Chief Knowledge and Innovation Officer at Gilbert & Tobin; Warrick McLean, CEO at Colman Grieg Lawyers; and Graeme Grovum, Principal at legal industry consultancy Alpha Creates. Topics covered in our discussion included: What stood out in legaltech and innovation in 2019? And, how it showed up in law firm/legal department strategic priorities, Managing Partner/CEO agendas and industry research. What trends were expected or surprised the legal industry in 2019? What was the uptake of legaltech and innovation in law firms in 2019? Was uptake being driven by clients or a new level of skills/industry maturity or a discernible move towards a culture of continuous improvement or something else? And, how would that change in 2020? How did industry change support and shape new legal work and a new workforce profile in 2019?  Was it redefining the definition of “team”? Would that continue in 2020? Did changes in work and the workforce in 2019 also change the way law firms worked with their clients e.g. in-house counsel and, vice versa? Where did Australia rate in the take up of legaltech/innovation in law firms on a scale of 1-5 (1 being little or none and 5 being we’re all over it)? And, where did that place Australia in the Asia-Pacific region? What were the big trends to look for in 2020 and, how should the legal industry prepare for them? And finally, would 2020 bring with it a new opportunity for optimism for legaltech/innovation, or something different? Thank you Caryn, Warrick and Graeme for a wonderful conversation – we love your work! And, all our friends around the world, thank you for your support in 2019, we can’t wait to be part of your lives again in 2020. Our very best wishes to you and your families for a restful, joyful and peaceful holiday season!

The opportunity and challenge of legaltech/lawtech and legal innovation is that they are borderless! Collaborations, experience sharing and networks in this space are increasingly global but, that can also make keeping up to date even more difficult. In this episode, we’re joined by Nick Watson, a serial legalpreneur, who is the Managing Director of Ruby Datum Virtual Data Rooms and the founder of the LawTech London group. Nick is based in London and spent time chatting with us about the UK lawtech and innovation scene as well as what lies ahead in 2020. The topics covered in our conversation included: The difference between lawtech/legaltech and the definition of innovation The hot topics in lawtech and legal innovation in the UK today Where the UK rates on a scale of 1-5 (1 being little or none and 5 being we’re all over it) in the take up of lawtech and innovation The drivers and obstacles in that take up and, if there are any discernible differences between law firms/in-house legal departments and/or where lawyers work Where lawyers go to learn about lawtech and legal innovation in the UK How Australia and the UK compare in the lawtech/legal innovation worlds And finally, the one big thing we should watch for in lawtech/legal innovation coming out of the UK in 2020. Thanks so much for visiting with us, Nick – please come back to Oz soon!

Innovation, the sort that transforms and not just tinkers at the edges, is as unlikely to happen in the legal industry, as any other, without diversity and inclusion. Different perspectives and ideas, shaped from different experiences, will create that sort of change and lead the legal industry into its next iteration. With that in mind, Christie Guimond, Priya Lele and Nicky Leijtens formed She Breaks the Law (SBTL), an amazing “global network of women leaders who are breaking the mould and challenging the norm in the world of law.” We spoke with Christie, who is also a Senior Manager in Legal Project Management at White & Case LLP in London, to learn a little more about SBTL: how and why it formed, its unique value proposition, the importance of diversity and inclusion and what SBTL will focus on in the coming year.   Thanks so much, Christie – SBTL is an amazing initiative and we can’t wait to see and support what you, Priya and Nicky will do next! P.S. If you would like to read a little more about SBTL, please check out this CLI Legalpreneurs Spotlight too.

So many bots, so little time! Everywhere you turn there’s another website with a chatbot, or another article about them…often followed by a bunch of doomsday predictions about more lawyers and legal business professionals losing their jobs! So, what’s the real deal? Are legal bots a fabulous tech tool that can assist lawyers in spending more time where they add the most value e.g. with their clients, understanding their client’s problems, their businesses, and focussing on the more complex problem solving they do so well? Or, will legal bots provide more support, assistance and information to those who otherwise cannot afford legal services. Or, is there a less rosy scenario for everyone somewhere down the road. Or, is it a little of all of these things? In other words, what’s the real impact, right now, of legal bots and, where will it all go from here? We spoke with Sam Flynn, a lawyer and co-founder of Josef, a company that develops bots but also connects these with document automation and data. It’ a company that has rapidly and deservedly found itself leading the industry in this area, at home and overseas. Topics covered in our conversation included:   Some quick definitions for all the bots out there. The pros and cons of bots. How law firms and legal departments are using bots and why. How the use of bots is changing how lawyers work, what lawyers work on (i.e. where they focus their time) and the impact this is having on legal education. The work Josef has been doing in running summer programs for clerks/associates in law firms on bot development around the world and how that is developing skills but also acting as a catalyst for legal innovation. Whether or not government funding for legal bots (recently announced by the NSW government when we recorded this podcast) would assist with improving A2J. Where to start on the bot learning continuum. And finally, what will the 2025 version of a bot look like and do! Thank you so much, Sam - we love your work – you amaze and inspire us all! You can also read more about Sam’s journey in his CLI Legalpreneurs Spotlight on the CLI website.

The love/hate relationship with the billable hour remains as topical as it is controversial in legal practice today. It’s been an integral part of how lawyers have valued their services for a while now but, we’re in different times so, does that mean we need to think differently too about what and how we value what lawyers do? The billable hour has also served, within law firms (and legal departments), as a proxy for things like productivity, utilization, performance, compensation, rewards and promotion. And, that probably needs to be reviewed too. For example, can you really measure a person’s contribution to legacy building and employee retention through coaching and mentoring; or continuous improvement, efficiency and effectiveness through innovation and creativity; or client relationship building, satisfaction and retention…by the hour? We spoke with John Chisholm, Liz Harris and David Wells from the Innovim Group about all this and more. These folks are Australia’s leading legal services pricing gurus and, they also know a thing or two about running a successful legal business. Topics covered in our conversation included: The difference between billing, pricing and value pricing? The whole billable hour thing – the pros, cons and everything in between. The alternatives to using the billable hour: For calculating “fix a fees;” For measuring productivity; and Tracking where people spend time. Why lawyers struggle with letting go of the billable hour. Want happens if the client wants you to bill by the hour. Should lawyers price their own work? If a legal business can change from billing time to value pricing without changing the business model. Whether or not there is a link between legal innovation and not selling time by the hour. And, a little crystal ball gazing about how lawyers in private practice will be measuring their revenue in the near future. Thank you so much John, Liz and David – we so appreciated your time – non-billable, of course! You can also read or watch John’s 10 Tips and Traps in Making the Transition to a Value Pricing Model on the CLI website.

Described as the new electricity or oil by one person and uranium by the next, there is no doubt that the use (and abuse) of data is as hot a topic for the legal industry, as it is for every other. So why is it so important? Why does it garner such polar opposite views? And how is any of this relevant to the practice and business of law? We spoke with an amazingly talented group of data gurus, all of whom work with data in similar and different ways in the legal industry and asked them to answer these and many more questions. For these folks data is a part of what they do every day. It helps them and their firms/organisations make better decisions. It helps them identify best and next practices for their businesses and, it supports them in delivering better services and products, faster and cheaper without compromising quality for their clients. In discussion with Chris Maher - Legal Counsel – Products, Marketing & IP, Legal & Corporate Affairs, Telstra; Aidan Parsons - Business Development and Operations Manager at LOD | Legal Operations; Alex Rosenrauch - Legal Process Specialist, Telstra; and Tae Royle - Head of Legal Technology Solutions, Ashurst, we covered topics including: Getting some terminology straight like big data, unstructured and structured data, predictive analytics and data analytics. Whether or not data is the next best thing (the good oil/electricity) or toxic (like uranium) and, whether or not that is all a matter of perspective and/or use. How data is being used in legal practice – the many ways e.g. to improve efficiencies of processes and systems, as a tool in legal practice e.g. e-discovery, due diligence, etc., as an integral part of a new take on risk management, and in some other areas too like business development and talent management. How data is re-shaping legal practice from all perspectives – for lawyers and clients - and, because of its emerging importance and pervasiveness, whether it has consequently given rise to a new, emerging legal profession of legal data specialists. What’s stopping the legal profession from embracing data analytics? How a law firm/department can start to construct a Data Management Plan/Strategy or begin planning to manage data. How a law firm/legal department can encourage the change to a data driven mindset and culture in the legal industry – and how closely aligned that is to a culture of continuous improvement. And finally, the big questions for the legal industry - what happens if it does not embrace the use of data analytics in legal practice in the near future? Thank you so much Chris, Aidan, Alex and Tae – can’t wait until we get to hang out with our favourite data gurus again!

Within the discourse on innovation in the legal industry there is a recurring theme – more could be done if it were not for outdated regulation! It’s also sometimes suggested that Alternative Legal Service Providers (ALSP) can offer their services more effectively and efficiently because they are not regulated. There is much to unpack in that discussion, probably a podcast all on its own. But regardless of where one finds themselves in this debate, it’s easy to agree that there is a balance to be found between the protection of consumers, maintaining ethical standards and the high quality of legal services on the one hand, and the need to dramatically improve access to affordable justice on the other. As we listen to this podcast today, we know that balance has not been struck. We also know that the best legaltech/AI, legalpreneurs and ALSPs in the world, did not create an access to justice gap, but rather have sought, in part, to bridge it. So, in this time of change in the legal industry, we are presented with an opportunity to rethink and reinvent not just how legal services and products are delivered or by whom but, more broadly, the entire role and function of regulation and the regulator. It’s not a new idea or focus. And, it will not be achieved without thoughtful consultation and collaboration. It has featured significantly in recent legal industry reviews and reforms in places like the UK, is picking up momentum now in the US in states like California and Utah and it’s been at the forefront of discussion in Australia too. We spoke with Jennie Pakula, the Manager, Innovation and Consumer Engagement at the Victorian Legal Services Board + Commissioner (VLSBC) about her unique role in Victoria, how it came about, and how it might act as an example or a new way to progress change in regulation and the role of the regulator in the legal industry.  Topics covered in our conversation included: Identifying the major pain points for the consumers of legal services; The importance of change in the legal profession; The changing nature of the relationship between regulators and regulated in the legal profession and, with that in mind, how VLSBC’s Innovation Inbox works;   What regulators of the legal profession around the world should be focussed on right now; Where Australia sits on the world stage as far as innovative legal industry regulation is concerned; and Looking a little further down the track, if there will still be a role for regulation of the legal profession. Thank you so much Jennie – we applaud VLSBC’s innovation through your appointment and your work – we look forward to checking back on your progress soon!

VR has been around for a while so how is it faring in the face of so much new legaltech and AI in the market? We spoke with Matthew Stubenberg, the  Associate Director of Legal Technology – A2J Lab, Harvard Law School, about the emerging use of virtual reality in law, legal education, pro bono work and improving access to justice.  Matthew has had an amazing career and is in a role that now combines his skills and passion for the law, legaltech, the not for profit sector, and access to justice. Topics covered in our conversation included: How to define VR – there are a lot of definitions out there! Where VR is being used/emerging in legal education, performance feedback, litigation (jury trials), pro bono work and capturing the experience of senior lawyers How VR relates, if at all, to the discussion on whether or not lawyers should learn to code The advantages and disadvantages of VR itself and VR versus video How to get a VR project off the ground – where to start, cost, how best to progress it And finally, whether or not there is a new type of “virtual” law firm on the horizon, if so, what it might look like and who it will serve. Thank you so much Matthew  – we applaud your work with the A2J Lab and can’t wait to chat with you again, virtually!

The People Part of Change and Innovation – Ida Abbott on Succession Planning, Reverse Mentoring and a Whole Lot More! In the discussion about legal innovation, we can sometimes forget to focus on the people part. People innovate, organisations do not! People find change hard and innovation is, essentially, a change process.  This is all complex enough but the people part is, itself, also changing right now. Baby Boomers are retiring, the legal workforce is increasingly mobility, employee have different expectations – the gig economy is alive and well for all legal professionals. So, how well is the legal industry coping with all of this?   We spoke with Ida Abbot of Ida Abbott Consulting, an amazing human and guru on all things related to law firm succession planning and mentoring. We focussed our discussion on two of the most pressing people issues in the legal industry right now. These issues have been present for a long time but are finding their way onto the priority list at law firm strategic planning meetings, and will continue to do that with greater emphasis, as legal innovation takes a deeper and wider hold on the industry. These two critical issues are: the impact of the exodus of the Baby Boomer lawyers from legal practice and, the role that mentoring should/can/will play in the consequent “changing of the guard.” Topics covered in our conversation included: How law firms are preparing for the loss of their Baby Boomer leaders and managers. How law firms are preparing for a changing legal workforce more broadly and, how design thinking can be used to support this too! Where the loss of the Baby Boomers will be most/least likely to show up in legal practice. How firms are/are not working on bridging any potential gaps as Baby Boomers leave. Given how much legal practice has changed and will continue to change, is there a role to play for experienced practitioners to act as mentors in law firms today/tomorrow? Can/should the transfer of experience from senior lawyers be limited to other lawyers or should it be extended to the many emerging legal professions? How important is reverse mentoring in contemporary legal practice? What benefits can it bring? And finally, if we all could look from a 40,000 foot/metre height over the next 3 years and observe the depth and breadth of the change in the legal workforce, will we be looking at chaos or calm? Thank you so much Ida  – we have all benefitted from your generous and incredible experience! By the way, we will let you know when Ida’s workbook “Retirement By Design” is published in early 2020!