The Peter McCormack Show

Troy Cross is a Professor of Philosopher and Fellow at BPI, and Harry Sudock is Chief Strategy Officer at Griid. This interview was a live recording made at the Bitcoin 2023 Conference in Miami, where we discussed Bitcoin mining: the industry’s rapid evolution, how it’s optimising other markets, and why its relentless search for cheap energy will facilitate human flourishing. - - - - Bitcoin mining has been the subject of much controversy and debate in mainstream media. The infamous New York Times (NYT) article in April still casts a shadow over the industry: the piece characterised Bitcoin mining as an exploitative parasite feeding off cheap energy at the expense of local users and the environment. And yet, Bitcoin mining is the exact opposite. As Troy Cross states in this live interview, when people get to hear the truth about Bitcoin mining's impact on energy systems it “blows their minds!” Harry Sudock adds more colour by explaining how Bitcoin mining is a black hole that sucks in economic utility and spits it out in its most efficient form, making it a revolutionary tool for human flourishing. Both speakers criticize the media for pushing a biased agenda and cherry-picking data to fit a preconceived narrative. They argue that the truth about Bitcoin mining's impact on energy systems is more complex than the media portrays, but, this doesn’t provide the clickbait media outlets are after. The irony is that the NYT’s mission is “to seek the truth and help people understand the world.” However, we are optimistic that the tide will soon turn. With this show, both Harry and Troy have been on What Bitcoin Did now a combined 13 times (lucky for us!), and they continue to blow our minds with their tales of the possible worlds opened up by the race for cheap and abundant energy. The other side just doesn’t have the calibre of persuasive, authentic and enthusiastic voices we have.

Jason Maier is a teacher and the author of ‘A Progressive’s Case for Bitcoin’. In this interview, we discuss the importance of teaching money and Bitcoin in schools, the future of education in the shadow of AI, and the challenges of having a public persona. We also talk about the feedback Jason has received since publishing his book and Bitcoin’s potential to bring people together. - - - - It is a common feature of any orange pilling exercise that most people are blissfully ignorant of the inherent weakness and structurally unjust nature of the monetary system. And yet, school curriculums are shockingly devoid of requiring schools to provide even rudimentary information on how economies, money and individuals interact. We are a financially illiterate generation. Then there is the impact of technological changes on students. AI is rapidly changing the world in ways forecasters are struggling to predict. It is obvious that most schools aren’t equipping students to enter a world of constant technological revolution. A world in which Bitcoin may play a significant role. Therefore, as the world continues to evolve, the need for education that prepares students for the future is becoming increasingly essential. Students are generally receptive to new ideas and have the agility in being able to develop the skills required to exploit new opportunities opened up by technology. The issue is with the conservative nature of the education system, which in turn is heavily influenced by biases and misconceptions. In this podcast, Jason Maeir shares his experiences in educating students about Bitcoin, and the influence of the emerging properties of AI upon education. There is a fundamental need to change educational principles away from rote learning (i.e. knowing stuff) to developing more holistic skills such as critical thinking, problem-solving and creativity. These have been traditionally seen as ‘soft skills’, but they are in fact the bridge between technology and humans. The goal is to improve productivity and intelligence in a society that is more equal and fair. And it all starts with improving our education.

Nic Carter is a Partner at Castle Island Ventures and co-founder and Chairman of Coin Metrics. In this interview, we discuss Real Bedford, ordinals, the Bitcoin fee market, Bitcoin culture wars, layer 2 innovations, Chokepoint 2.0 and the 2022 banking crisis, and how people can stand up for Bitcoin against the current US administration. - - - - In categorising a covert attempt by the executive branch to restrict access to Bitcoin and crypto as a modern iteration of Operation Chokepoint, Nic Carter has brought much-needed attention to an otherwise nebulous sense of unease. Nic has clarified the meaning behind a series of different events, tying together inconsistent messages and suspicious decisions. His explicit analysis has even garnered the attention of a presidential candidate, Robert F Kennedy Jnr. At face value, Chokepoint 2.0 is about the government's hostility towards the crypto industry in the wake of FTX. That Bitcoin will be ensnared in this dragnet is of obvious concern. An innovation that could revolutionise and democratise money and energy could be restricted within the world's leading economy. However, there is a bigger issue here: the circumvention of democratic norms. These restrictions are occurring without debate or scrutiny. Then, to add import on top of import, there is the underlying rationale for these restrictions. In a week when the debt ceiling is again the subject of political horse-trading to allow sovereign debt to continue to grow to evermore eye-watering levels, these restrictions are an implicit imposition of soft capital controls on the American people. So, we have unprecedented restrictions on people’s freedoms to protect stores of value being done behind closed doors. Put bluntly, the US government's attempts to restrict the growth of the crypto industry by leaning on private banks are unconstitutional and violate due process. The social contract is being broken. Nic has suggested that injured parties should join efforts to sue the government to enable legal oversight of these decisions. In his opinion, this is a lawsuit that can be won.

John D'Agostino is the Institutional Lead for Advisory and Strategic Partnerships at Coinbase. In this interview, we discuss his background working for the New York Mercantile Exchange, seeking out enjoyment, and the flip side of getting kidnapped. We also talk about the maturity of the Bitcoin market, covering both the regulatory threats and institutional appetite.  - - - -  John D'Agostino is certainly a unique character. He was the subject of a best-selling book back in 2007 after he set out to open up the first oil exchange in the Middle East, which acted as a catalyst for capital markets in the region. However, his life has produced enough for more than a single book: he is the first person I have spoken to who has been kidnapped.    As someone who seeks out new exciting opportunities, it’s not a surprise that John landed a prominent position within the digital assets industry. As a senior advisor to Coinbase, he’s well-positioned to reflect on the state of the industry as it navigates a period of uncertainty. Post FTX, what is the direction of government regulation in the US and abroad? Furthermore, what are institutional investors waiting to do? John sets out what he sees as a huge gap between the US and the rest of the world in terms of digital asset regulation. And yet, not least because of the popular support for digital assets among the electorate, he views this as being a temporary situation which provides international players with a headstart over the US.  John is strongly optimistic about the future of Bitcoin and other digital assets, particularly because of the potential to unlock value through programmable and immutable instruments. He’s also seeing the backed-up demand from institutional investors, just waiting for regulatory clarity. He’s been part of shaping change in the financial world once already. Who’d bet against him doing it again?

James Seyffart is an analyst for Bloomberg Intelligence covering ETFs. In this interview, we discuss the how and why of ETFs, Grayscale’s legal battle with the SEC over the approval of a Bitcoin ETF, and the complexities of Grayscale implementing a redemption program for GBTC. We also talk about the role of the SEC in regulating Bitcoin and Gary Gensler’s political ambitions. - - - -  In two months' time, it will be the 10-year anniversary of the Winklevoss Twins making the first submission to the SEC for a Bitcoin spot ETF. When the SEC rejected this in 2017, it seemed as though it was a temporary blip, and that a US Bitcoin spot ETF would inevitably be approved. And yet, the SEC has rejected a raft of subsequent applications, and many more sit in Gary Gensler’s inbox awaiting a decision.  Grayscale has decided to test the SEC's stance in court. Whilst there are various opinions as to the underlying motivation for Grayscale taking on this case, there is no doubt that this is the best test of the SEC's current intransigence in relation to a Bitcoin spot ETF.  Bloomberg Intelligence’s James Seyffart, an ETF expert, provides his informed opinion on the current status of Grayscale’s case, the likelihood of the SEC losing the case, and whether this will affect the SEC's position of a Bitcoin spot ETF. He also sets out why the SEC is so reluctant to approve what many in the community believe would open up Bitcoin to a new massive wave of adoption.   

Arthur Hayes is an entrepreneur and the former CEO of BitMEX. In my first interview with Arthur, we discuss the state of the world at the moment: what happened with FTX, money printing, the coming collapse, debt jubilees, the need to acquire assets outside the system like Bitcoin, good and bad AI scenarios, and a powder keg of issues that’ll hit the markets this fall.  - - - -  Arthur Hayes was the co-founder and former CEO of BitMEX, which was one of the largest crypto exchanges and derivatives platforms. In 2021, its average daily trading volume was over $2 billion. Hayes was famously charged in the southern district of New York for violating the Bank Secrecy Act. He got 2 years probation and a $10 million fine.  But Hayes remains an authoritative voice within the crypto and Bitcoin communities. Nic Carter called him “One of the good guys of crypto.” He now has a mission to help spread financial literacy and educate investors, which he does through regular medium posts, columns in leading journals and interviews with podcasters. And, he has a knack for calling the market. In this short interview, we pack in a surprising number of issues: Hayes's investment strategy, and views on crypto and Bitcoin; opinions on the FTX scandal; fragility in the banking sector; historical currency debasements and the inevitability of a coming collapse; the use of debt jubilees to right society; investing in assets that can weather the coming storm; the impacts of AI; and the debt ceiling.

Tor Ekeland & Mike Hassard are defence attorneys representing a Swedish-Russian national, Roman Sterlingov, arrested in early 2021 by the IRS at LAX. He was accused of creating and operating the Bitcoin Fog mixing service to launder over $300 million. He had his assets seized and was incarcerated. He’s awaiting trial. Tor and Mike are still trying to find corroborating evidence. But they’ve uncovered conflicts of interest within the DoJ.  - - - -  Roman Sterlingov has been accused of running Bitcoin Fog, a Bitcoin mixer, and laundering $334 million. On a prima facie basis it seems like a case of the state acting to crack down on nefarious darknet activities. But, delve deeper, as Roman’s lawyers Tor Ekeland & Mike Hassard have done, and it raises serious questions about what the DoJ and various companies are willing to do for selfish motives.  Firstly, there is a distinct lack of evidence against Roman. No evidence has been found on any computer, thumb drive or server that links Roman to the crimes he’s accused of.  The evidence that does exist has been produced by the blockchain forensics company Chainanalysis. But as yet this evidence is not open to scrutiny, and, such evidence has never been challenged in court.  Secondly, the case highlights numerous material conflicts of interest within the DoJ and Chainalysis. A revolving door between the DoJ and Big Tech is a well-known issue. Then there’s the use of cases such as Roman’s to help build the reputation of Chainalysis, helping it to gain a multi billion dollar valuation. The profit incentive has and does skew criminal prosecutions in the US.  And lastly, there’s the overreach of the DoJ, and the tactics it is employing to arrest and prosecute individuals. Roman’s case is a high-stakes situation for both Roman, the Bitcoin community and the wider public. If Roman loses, he could face 50 years to life in prison. If unchallenged, it could also set a dangerous precedent and allow the government to expand its jurisdiction globally through the internet.

Pascal Gauthier is the CEO of Ledger, NVK is the founder of Coinkite, Matt Odell is a podcaster and Bitcoin educator and Harry Sudock is Cheif Strategy Officer at Griid. In this interview, we host a group discussion, regarding Ledger’s Recover firmware update. We talk about the questions this update has raised about the trade-offs between mitigating seed recovery risk over state seizure risks.  - - - -  Full disclosure, Ledger is a sponsor of the What Bitcoin Did Podcast.  Just under a week ago, Ledger launched a seed recovery service called Ledger Recover. There was an immediate backlash on Twitter, with various prominent voices raising concerns about the security implications. Fundamentally, does this feature open up users to hacking or state seizure risks? Or, is this a useful service that will support efforts to get more users to self-custody?  The purpose of this show was to enable Pascal Gauthier, the CEO of Ledger, to explain the aims of Ledger’s seed recovery service, and the methods employed to protect users. The show then enabled trusted independent and prominent voices within the community (including a Ledger competitor) to set out their concerns and discuss them openly with Pascal.  Should security for Bitcoin be provided using open or closed-source software? Given the challenges in providing robust security, are there any acceptable trade-offs? Can we afford anything less than full transparency from commercial companies involved in Bitcoin security?  The rudimentary issue is whether Bitcoin security should be regarded as a binary choice. Should we as a community should aim for a minimum expectation of security? Or, should we take the world as it is and pragmatically make incremental improvements to people’s security? Can we afford as a community to have the majority of people custody on exchanges? Or, do we strive for higher ideals than seeing self-custody as an end in itself?

Jason Lowery is a Major in the US Space Force and author of Softwar: A Novel Theory on Power Projection and the National Strategic Significance of Bitcoin. In this interview, we discuss how he is building the case within the US Department of Defence that Bitcoin represents a new form of digital warfare that the US government needs to embrace to secure its power projection in cyberspace. - - - -  Jason Lowery burst onto the Bitcoin scene in August 2021. When a senior member of the US Space Force enters the Bitcoin debate it tends to turn heads! But, it was his novel projections of what value Bitcoin presents to society that generated interest and controversy. Bitcoiners have long espoused Bitcoin as a peaceful revolution. Jason thinks Bitcoin can be used as a tool of warfare.  In Softwar, Jason’s recently released book on the national strategic significance of Bitcoin, he explains the background of modern warfare, tracing its roots back to the struggle for survival in all forms of life. From single-cell organisms upwards, all of life is involved in a fight for control over resources and territory. Competition has resulted in an ecological arms race manifested through evolutionary cycles of improvements in physical power and the projection of that power. Softwar explains that humans are just another life form involved in this competition for survival.  Humans, however, have become increasingly efficient at power projection techniques, from wielding fire to using nuclear weapons. Now, as we accelerate through the digital age, humans need to develop and harness new and innovative methods to maintain their advantages over adversaries.  In his role within Space Force, which is developing the means to project power beyond our planet, Jason has been contemplating what other tools will be required as another arena for competition opens up: cyberspace. Jason argues that Bitcoin has the potential to be a revolutionary cybersecurity system. Proof of Work is an innovation that moves the fight to the enemy, imposing a cost on those wishing to undertake an attack.  Softwar is a call to action for the US Department of Defence to adopt Bitcoin as a tool of warfare in the new cyberspace battlefield. Whilst designed to secure money, PoW can in theory be used to secure other forms of data. Whether you agree with this assertion or not, Jason is making progress within the DoD in arguing Bitcoin’s utility makes it too important for the Department of Treasury and Federal Reserve jurisdiction. And who would bet against the DoD in a fight!

Michael Saylor is the CEO of MicroStrategy. In this interview, we discuss his 10 rules for lfie, the opportunities and threats of AI, the importance of Bitcoin in an automated world, the strength of ossification compared to accelerating change, and the criticality of Bitcoin miners to the Bitcoin network. We also talk about Michael’s navigation of the bear market. - - - - Chat GPT was released a little over 6 months ago. It is arguably the most significant tech innovation since the internet. People are now routinely using chatbots to interact with technology and access information tailored to very specific needs. Whilst the impacts of this are yet to be fully understood, it is widely accepted that we have entered a new exciting and equally frightening paradigm. The issue at hand is that the world is becoming increasingly automated. As a result, human beings are being viewed as a constraint on productivity, which AI technology can mitigate. Where does this leave humans? In a world predicated on code and efficiency and automation, what controls are in place to ensure these systems are secure such that they can not be centralised and exploited such that the general population suffers rather than flourishes? Michael Saylor is of the opinion we need an automated tool that is secure and outside of any centralised control. Bitcoin, in this scenario, is the tool that can compete with new digital advances, but, enable humans to retain some control of their lives. As such, it is imperative that we protect the integrity of the innovation such that its utility remains available for both existing and future generations. The question then becomes how do we best protect Bitcoin? Saylor argues that it is the Bitcoin miners that are Bitcoin’s “fortresses”: they provide brute force security, a cryptographic defence, and the means to marshall the means to advocate effectively for Bitcoin within the corridors of power. Bitcoin miners, therefore, need protection to ensure they continue to act as Bitcoin’s standing army. We do this by ensuring stability: ossifying Bitcoin’s base layer protocol.