Stanford Legal
Law touches most aspects of life. Here to help make sense of it is the Stanford Legal podcast, where we look at the cases, questions, conflicts, and legal stories that
affect us all every day.
Stanford Legal launched in 2017 as a radio show on Sirius XM. We’re now a standalone podcast and we’re back after taking some time away, so don’t forget to subscribe or follow this feed. That way you’ll have access to new episodes as soon as they’re available.
We know that the law can be complicated. In past episodes we discussed a broad range of topics from the legal rights of someone in a conservatorship like Britney Spears to the Supreme Court’s abortion decision to how American law firms had to untangle their Russian businesses after the invasion of Ukraine. Past episodes are still available in our back catalog of episodes.
In future shows, we’ll bring on experts to help make sense of things like machine learning and developments in the regulation of artificial intelligence, how the states draw voting maps, and ways that the Supreme Court’s affirmative action ruling will change college admissions.
Our co-hosts know a bit about these topics because it’s their life’s work.
Pam Karlan studies and teaches what is known as the “law of democracy,”—the law that regulates voting, elections, and the political process. She served as a commissioner on the California Fair Political Practices Commission, an assistant counsel and cooperating attorney for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, and (twice) as a Deputy Assistant Attorney General in the Civil Rights Division of the U.S. Department of Justice. She also co-directs Stanford’s Supreme Court Litigation Clinic, which represents real clients before the highest court in the country, working on important cases including representing Edith Windsor in the landmark marriage equality win and David Riley in a case where the Supreme Court held that the police generally can’t search digital information on a cell phone seized from an individual who has been arrested unless they first get a warrant. She has argued before the Court nine times.
And Rich Ford’s teaching and writing looks at the relationship between law and equality, cities and urban development, popular culture and everyday life. He teaches local government law, employment discrimination, and the often-misunderstood critical race theory. He studied with and advised governments around the world on questions of equality law, lectured at places like the Sorbonne in Paris on the relationship of law and popular culture, served as a commissioner for the San Francisco Housing Commission, and worked with cities on how to manage neighborhood change and volatile real estate markets. He writes about law and popular culture for lawyers, academics, and popular audiences. His latest book is Dress Codes: How the Laws of Fashion Made History, a legal history of the rules and laws that influence what we wear.
The law is personal for all of us—and pivotal. The landmark civil rights laws of the 1960s have made discrimination illegal but the consequences of the Jim Crow laws imposed after the civil war are still with us, reflected in racially segregated schools and neighborhoods and racial imbalances in our prisons and conflict between minority communities and police. Unequal gender roles and stereotypes still keep women from achieving equality in professional status and income. Laws barring gay people from marrying meant that millions lived lives of secrecy and shame. New technologies present new legal questions: should AI decide who gets hired or how long convicted criminals go to prison? What can we do about social media’s influence on our elections? Can Chat GPT get copyright in a novel?
Law matters. We hope you’ll listen to new episodes that will drop on Thursdays every two weeks.
To learn more, go to https://law.stanford.edu/stanford-legal-podcast/.
Latest episodes
Apr 25, 2024 • 32min
AI in Government and Governing AI: A Discussion with Stanford’s RegLab
Joining Pam and Rich for this discussion are Professor Daniel Ho and RegLab Fellow Christie Lawrence, JD ’24 (MPP, Harvard Kennedy School of Government).Dan is the founding director of Stanford’s RegLab (Regulation, Evaluation, and Governance Lab), which builds high-impact partnerships for data science and responsible AI in the public sector. The RegLab has an extensive track record partnering with government agencies like the Environmental Protection Agency, Internal Revenue Service, the U.S. Department of Labor, and Santa Clara County on prototyping and evaluating AI tools to make government more fair, efficient, and transparent. Building on this work, the RegLab also helps agencies strengthen AI governance and operationalize trustworthy AI principles.Christie, a third-year JD student, worked with RegLab and Stanford’s Innovation Clinic on projects to advise DOL on responsible AI and development practices and to support the work with Prof. Ho on the National AI Advisory Committee, which advises the White House on AI policy. In this interview, we’ll learn about several RegLab projects—and the importance of helping government develop smart AI policy and solutions.Connect:Episode Transcripts >>> Stanford Legal Podcast WebsiteStanford Legal Podcast >>> LinkedIn PageRich Ford >>> Twitter/XPam Karlan >>> Stanford Law School PageStanford Law School >>> Twitter/XStanford Law Magazine >>> Twitter/XLinks:Dan Ho >>> Stanford Law School web page[00:00:00] Chapter 1: Setting the StageMention of the rapid acceleration of technology and the release of ChatGPT.Highlighting the risks associated with AI, such as bias and privacy concerns.Discussion on the relationship between AI and governance, including recent developments in AI policy and governance.Mention of the Biden administration's executive order on AI and its implications.[00:03:04] Chapter 2: The Role of Reg Lab and Collaboration with the IRSExplanation of the Reg Lab and its purpose.Discussion on the need for government agencies to modernize their technology infrastructure.Overview of the collaboration with the IRS to improve tax evasion detection using machine learning.Discovery of disparities in auditing rates and subsequent IRS reforms.Highlighting the intersection of AI, social justice, and government practices.[00:09:12] Chapter 3: Student PerspectiveChristie Lawrence shares her experience working on AI policy at Stanford Law School.Discussion on bridging the gap between policy, law, and technology.Impactful work done by students in collaboration with government agencies.[00:11:38] Chapter 4: AI and Social JusticePam Karlan's experience with AI issues in the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division.Examples of algorithmic discrimination and its implications for social justice.Discussion on the challenges of addressing AI-related issues in government practices.[00:23:55] Chapter 5: Future DirectionsOptimism about the future of AI governance and the recent executive order's impact.Anticipation of legislative proposals and state-level initiatives in AI regulation.Importance of maintaining an open innovation ecosystem and addressing talent gaps in government agencies.[00:25:55] Chapter 6: Audience Questions
Apr 11, 2024 • 37min
Representing Clients at the Supreme Court
Easha Anand, Co-director of Stanford Law School Supreme Court Litigation Clinic, discusses cases argued before the Court, their impact, and unique clinic approach. Students share experiences, legal challenges faced, and preparing for Supreme Court arguments. The podcast delves into whistleblowing cases, client defense complexities, and student involvement in legal battles.
Mar 28, 2024 • 31min
"Beware Euphoria: Unraveling America's Drug War"
Dive into the complex history of America's drug war with George Fisher, former Massachusetts Attorney General and acclaimed scholar of criminal law. In his latest book, "Beware Euphoria," Fisher explores the moral and racial dimensions of drug prohibition, challenging conventional narratives. Join the conversation on Stanford Legal as Fisher discusses the impact of racial justice movements on drug policy, including the legalization of cannabis, offering profound insights into a contentious issue shaping legal and social discourse.Connect:Episode Transcripts >>> Stanford Legal Podcast WebsiteStanford Legal Podcast >>> LinkedIn PageRich Ford >>> Twitter/XPam Karlan >>> Stanford Law School PageStanford Law School >>> Twitter/XStanford Law Magazine >>> Twitter/XLinks:George Fisher >>> Stanford Law School PageBeware Euphoria: The Moral Roots and Racial Myths of America's War on Drugs(00:00:00) Chapter 1: The Origins of Drug Prohibition Podcast guest, George Fisher, traces the history of drug prohibition, highlighting the departure of cannabis use from medical preservation. He also discusses the 19th-century roots of drug prohibition, particularly the moral concerns driving the anti-drug laws.(00:11:42) Chapter 2: Racial Narratives and Mass IncarcerationRich Ford discusses the common narrative linking mass incarceration to the war on drugs and its alleged racial motivations. Fisher challenges this narrative, arguing that early drug laws were about protecting whites' moral purity rather than targeting people of color. The conversation explores the racial dynamics of early drug laws, emphasizing the racism of indifference rather than explicit targeting.(00:20:20) Chapter 3: Moral Valence of Mind-Altering Drugs Fisher delves into the historical moral perceptions of mind-altering drugs, tracing back to Early Christian notions of reason and morality.He explains why certain drugs, like opium and later marijuana, were seen as threats to moral character, while alcohol was treated differently due to its varied uses.(00:26:15) Chapter 4: Legalization of Marijuana and Racial Justice The conversation shifts to the legalization of marijuana, highlighting its historical bans and recent movements towards legalization. Concerns about the increasing potency of marijuana and its potential backlash are explored, suggesting a need for careful regulation and messaging.(00:30:19) Conclusion: Closing RemarksRich Ford wraps up the conversation with George Fisher discussing insights and emphasizing the importance of discussing the ongoing struggle with drugs and intoxicants.
Mar 14, 2024 • 33min
Bill Gould on Dartmouth Basketball and the Changing Game of Unions and College Athletics
Pam Karlan and labor law expert and former NLRB chair William Gould IV explore the quickly changing arena of college athletics including the push for student-athlete unionization, the debate over compensation, and other issues at the intersection of sports and academia. From the Dartmouth College men's basketball team's union election to the broader challenges facing university athletics, they discuss the complex issues shaping the law and the future of collegiate sports.Connect:Episode Transcripts >>> Stanford Legal Podcast WebsiteStanford Legal Podcast >>> LinkedIn PageRich Ford >>> Twitter/XPam Karlan >>> Stanford Law School PageStanford Law School >>> Twitter/XStanford Law Magazine >>> Twitter/XLinks:William Gould IV >>> Stanford Law School PageRecent Q&A with Gould >>> Stanford's Bill Gould on the Dartmouth College Basketball Union Vote (00:00:00) Chapter 1: Introduction to the Intersection of Sports and Labor LawPam Karlan introduces the topic of sports law and labor law, highlighting the recent developments in the field and the significance of the intersection between the two areas. Bill and Pam look at an overview of the Dartmouth College men's basketball team unionization case and its implications for the traditional understanding of student-athlete status.(00:02:03) Chapter 2: The Evolving Definition of Student-AthleteWilliam B. Gould IV delves into the historical context of the student-athlete designation, tracing its origins and evolution over time. He discusses the complexities of defining student-athletes within the framework of labor law and examines the factors that have contributed to the recent challenges to this classification.(00:06:49) Chapter 3: Labor Law Considerations in Collegiate AthleticsGould explores the key principles of labor law as they apply to collegiate athletics, emphasizing the factors that determine employee status and the obligations of universities as employers. The chapter addresses issues such as control over athletes, compensation, and the role of collective bargaining in shaping the future of collegiate sports.(00:10:00) Chapter 4: Implications for Intercollegiate SportsKarlan and Gould discuss the broader implications of the Dartmouth case and similar unionization efforts for intercollegiate sports as a whole. They examine the challenges posed by conference realignment, Title IX considerations, and the evolving landscape of athlete compensation, including name, image, and likeness rights.(00:14:23) Chapter 5: Legal and Policy PerspectivesThe conversation shifts to a discussion of the legal and policy considerations surrounding student-athlete rights and the role of the courts in shaping future outcomes. Gould offers insights into the potential impact of Supreme Court decisions and judicial attitudes towards higher education institutions and their treatment of athletes.(00:21:08) Chapter 6: Looking AheadIn the final chapter, Karlan and Gould reflect on the future of collegiate athletics in light of ongoing legal battles and shifting societal norms. They explore potential scenarios for reform and address lingering questions about the balance between academic and athletic pursuits, the role of unions in protecting athlete rights, and the broader implications for labor relations in the sports industry.
Feb 29, 2024 • 35min
Are Frozen Embryos Children? A Discussion of the Alabama Decision on Embryo Rights and the Future of IVF Pregnancies in the US
Discussing the Alabama Supreme Court ruling on frozen embryos as children, implications for IVF treatments, and legal complexities. Exploring bioethics, embryo rights, and reproductive freedoms. Hank Greely provides insights on the case and its nationwide impact, highlighting the intersection of law, medicine, and ethics.
Feb 15, 2024 • 30min
Tackling Mass Incarceration in the US
Why does the U.S. have the highest incarceration rate in the industrialized world, with individuals, communities, and taxpayers paying a steep price for lengthy prison terms for even nonviolent offenders? Michael Romano, a criminal justice lawyer who founded and directs the Three Strikes Project at Stanford Law School, the first law school program of its type in the country focused on securing reduced sentences for incarcerated people deemed to be serving disproportionate sentences, has spent his career on this uniquely American challenge. As the project’s director for the past 16 years, Mike has worked with Stanford Law students to win the release of more than 200 Californians imprisoned under the state’s Three Strikes law.Along with helping hundreds of people sentenced to life in prison for minor/nonviolent crimes, the Three Strikes team also worked to change California’s Three Strikes Law. In 2012 they celebrated passage of the Three Strikes Reform Act, a landmark legislative effort led from start to finish by Stanford Law students and project staff members in partnership with the NAACP Legal Defense Fund.Connect:Episode Transcripts >>> Stanford Legal Podcast WebsiteStanford Legal Podcast >>> LinkedIn PageRich Ford >>> Twitter/XPam Karlan >>> Stanford Law School PageStanford Law School >>> Twitter/XStanford Law Magazine >>> Twitter/XMichael Romano >>> Twitter/X
Feb 1, 2024 • 26min
The Constitution, Trump, and the Struggles of US Courts to Interpret History with Jack Rakove
Important questions regarding Trump: can he be prosecuted for criminal wrongdoing when he was serving as president, whether the two impeachment trials matter, and if Colorado’s decision to disqualify him from the state’s primary ballots is constitutional. Pulitzer Prize winning historian Jack Rakove joins Pam and Rich for a discussion on the U.S. Constitution, originalism, charges against former president Donald Trump, and the role of historians in constitutional litigation.Connect:Episode Transcripts >>> Stanford Legal Podcast WebsiteStanford Legal Podcast >>> LinkedIn PageRich Ford >>> Twitter/XPam Karlan >>> Stanford Law School PageStanford Law School >>> Twitter/XStanford Law Magazine >>> Twitter/XLinks:Jack Rakove >>> Stanford University Page
Jan 18, 2024 • 28min
Droughts, Failing Infrastructure, and Water
Drinkable water is a precious commodity. But as population growth, aging infrastructure, drought, and climate change pose challenges to freshwater quality and quantity in America, the safety and amount of water in parts of the U.S. is in question. With more than 140,000 separate public water systems in the country, how can federal, state, and local governments, along with the various water authorities, take on this challenge alone? In this episode we hear from global water and natural resources expert Barton “Buzz” Thompson, about this new book Liquid Asset: How Business and Government Can Partner to Solve the Freshwater Crisis —and his recommendations for how to solve the freshwater crisis in the U.S.Connect:Episode Transcripts >>> Stanford Legal Podcast WebsiteStanford Legal Podcast >>> LinkedIn PageRich Ford >>> Twitter/XPam Karlan >>> Stanford Law School PageStanford Law School >>> Twitter/XStanford Law Magazine >>> Twitter/XLinks:Buzz Thompson >>> Stanford Law School PageLiquid Assets: How Business and Government Can Partner to Solve the Freshwater Crisis.Paul Milgrom & Auction TheoryChapter Timestamps:(00:00:00) Introduction & Water's Scarcity Hosts Rich Ford and Pam Karlan introduce guest, Buzz Thompson, an expert in water law and author of Liquid Assets(00:01:18) Water Challenges TodayThe scarcity of fresh water globally, and the multiple crises facing water resources: uneven distribution, climate change and the depletion of groundwater resources.(00:04:30) Water Infrastructure What is water infrastructure in the United States, the current state of it, and the repairs and upgrades required and being undertaken.(00:07:14) Updating Infrastructure & 21st-Century Technology Examples of modern wastewater treatment methods, advocating for resource recovery centers and outlining their potential benefits by adopting 21st century technology.(00:09:08) Fragmented Water Systems The complexity of water systems, & the challenges created by small water systems (00:12:00) Water Rights & Legal Structures The current legal structure of water rights in the USA,and defining the goals of both protecting water as a public resource, and a private commodity.(00:16:25) Private Sector's Role & Future Solutions Buzz discusses water markets internationally, and the private sector's role in innovation, technology, and financing to bridge the gap in water management. (00:18:59) Challenges with Outdated Water Rights Rich & Buzz discuss the challenges created by the current water rights model, and the necessity, possibilities, and challenges for legal reform.(00:21:18) Proposal for Tradeable Water Rights The concept of converting existing water rights into more easily transferable ones similar to real property, in order to eliminate the current challenges.(00:25:49) Changing a System of Water RightsAustralia's successful reform in the Murray-Darling Basin, where water rights were revamped for better tradeability and how they safeguarded the environment.(00:27:31) Conclusion
Jan 4, 2024 • 22min
Does Inequity in U.S. Patent Inventorship Matter? A Discussion on Inequality in the Patent System and how it Impacts Innovation
Women and minorities continue to be underrepresented in patent issuing and less often are granted credit for their innovations. We examine why this is, the impacts it has, and what can be done about it. Patents, and the protection of inventor rights, was deemed important enough that when the U.S. Constitution was ratified in 1788 it included what is now known as the intellectual property clause: Article I, Section 8, Clause 8, which reads “[The Congress shall have Power . . . ] To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.” Our guest in this episode is Lisa Larrimore Ouellette, whose latest research looks at inequality in the patent system and how that impacts innovation. Her paper “Improving Equity in Patent Inventorship” was recently published in Science.Connect:Episode Transcripts >>> Stanford Legal Podcast WebsiteStanford Legal Podcast >>> LinkedIn PageRich Ford >>> Twitter/XStanford Law School >>> Twitter/XStanford Law Magazine >>> Twitter/XLisa Ouellette >>> Twitter/XChapters:(00:00:00) Introduction and Patent System OverviewThe significance of patents and their historical context. Intro of guest Lisa Ouellette’s research on inequity in the patent system (00:01:47) Understanding Patents and their Benefits The purpose of patents, their duration, and their impact on inventors' rights. Discussion on how patents apply across various industries like pharmaceuticals, software, and AI.(00:04:10) Inequities in the Patent SystemDisparities within the patent system, and discussion on the lower representation of women and minorities in obtaining patents.(00:07:15) The Innovator-Inventor GapExploring the gap between authorship on scientific papers and recognition as patent inventors & potential mechanisms causing it.(00:11:15) Impact of Patent RecognitionThe significance of being listed as a patent inventor: impact on career, earnings, and professional reputation. (00:13:33) Innovation Type with Diverse InventorshipInsights into the potential shift in innovation focus due to diversity within inventor teams. (00:14:54) Addressing Inequity: Policy ReformsChallenges faced by underrepresented groups in persisting through the patent application process, suggestions for change and the impact of real-world programs to address these challenges(00:18:37) AI's Influence and ChallengesSpeculations on AI's impact on patent accessibility and equity. Challenges and potential exacerbation of disparities due to AI-generated patent claims.(00:21:11) Conclusion
Dec 21, 2023 • 30min
Texas Abortion Restrictions, Medicated Abortions, and Reproduction Rights in a Post-Roe US
In June, 2022 the U.S. Supreme Court delivered an historic and far reaching decision overturning Roe v. Wade and turning abortion law to the states. Less than two years on, we are seeing just how that decision is playing out as women navigate a divided country with a patchwork of reproductive rights. The recent example of Kate Cox, a Dallas-area mother of two who sought to have a medical exemption from Texas’ strict abortion laws and was forced to leave the state to receive the care she needed when her request was denied, brought the consequences of the Court’s decision to the headlines. In this episode we hear from the show’s co-host Pam Karlan, an expert in reproductive law, about the Texas case and reproductive rights in the US after Roe was overturned.Connect:Episode Transcripts >>> Stanford Legal Podcast WebsiteStanford Legal Podcast >>> LinkedIn PageRich Ford >>> Twitter/XStanford Law School >>> Twitter/XStanford Law Magazine >>> Twitter/XChapters:(00:00:00) IntroductionRich Ford introduces the episode and highlights the significant changes in abortion laws over recent years. (00:01:08) Current Legal ContextPam Karlan provides an overview of the legal landscape since the Dobbs case decision and summarizes the changes and confusion it has led to.(00:05:00) Texas Abortion Controversy: Kate Cox CaseFocus on the case of Kate Cox, a woman in Texas seeking abortion due to fetal health complications. Analysis of the legal, political, and ethical implications of the verdict.(00:10:02) Impact of Returning Abortion Laws to StatesThe misconception that returning abortion decisions to states would reduce controversy. Analysis of attempts to to restrict travel for abortion services.(00:12:20) Legal Ramifications and Political ScenariosDiscussion on potential legal consequences for aiding abortion travel and comparisons with state laws regarding child-related travel. Contemplation of federal abortion bans utilizing the Commerce Clause and the potential scenarios for imposing such bans.(00:14:48) Medical Abortions and Legal ChallengesInsights into the rise of medical abortions and the controversy surrounding the approval and distribution of drugs, and subsequent legal battles.(00:20:20) State Politics, Abortion Laws & State Referendum DynamicsExploration of the shifting dynamics in state politics, including red states' stances on protecting abortion rights, and measures in California & Ohio.(00:22:56) Shifting Political NarrativesDiscussion on the evolving focus of the abortion debate, and examination of how abortion politics are playing out in national and state elections, influencing political strategies.(00:24:59) Federal Legislation Prospects and Responsive ActivismThe potential for federal legislation protecting or banning abortion rights & insights into citizen activism both aiding and impeding abortion access. (00:28:18) Abortion in Unlikely ArenasExamples showcasing how abortion politics infiltrate seemingly unrelated areas, affecting military promotions and governmental functionality.
