Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm Collins

The Discord URL: https://discord.gg/27eJzt2n In this thought-provoking episode, Malcolm and Simone challenge the conventional understanding of fascism and argue that the modern progressive left is the purest manifestation of fascist ideology in today's political landscape. By redefining fascism as an economic and political system distinct from communism and capitalism, they shed light on the alarming parallels between the tactics employed by the progressive movement and historical fascist regimes.Malcolm begins by delineating the core characteristics of communism, capitalism, and fascism. He explains that while communism aims for equal distribution of resources and capitalism promotes a decentralized, competitive economic structure, fascism seeks to allocate resources disproportionately to those who align with the dominant ideology or belong to favored ethnic or cultural groups.The couple then delves into how the progressive left's policies and rhetoric mirror fascist principles. They discuss instances of the Democratic Party redistributing wealth and opportunities based on ideological allegiance and perceived victimhood status, drawing comparisons to the preferential treatment of certain groups in Nazi Germany.Malcolm and Simone also examine the progressive left's tendency to identify specific groups as the source of societal harm, justifying their demonization and potential elimination. They argue that this tactic closely resembles the dehumanization of Jews and other targeted populations under fascist regimes.Throughout the conversation, the couple grapples with the challenge of engaging with those who have fully embraced the progressive cult mentality. They discuss the importance of recognizing the humanity in one's ideological opponents while acknowledging the difficulty of bridging the divide when dissent is met with ostracization and threats of violence.The episode concludes with a reflection on the state of free speech and the dangers of ideological echo chambers. Malcolm and Simone emphasize the need for open dialogue and the creation of parallel economies to counteract the growing influence of fascistic tendencies in mainstream institutions.Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] In a fascist system, like in a communist system, the government is in control of industry, capital, and the economic system, but the goal of the collection of this money is not equal distribution among the body politic.It is distribution disproportionately to individuals who are ideologically aligned with whatever ideology the system's looking to promote. So instead of complete equality, the system is designed entirely around promoting a specific ideological and cultural framework. If that fascist believes their goal to serve their political party is to redistribute the capital of the state to promote the ideological interests of that community, or to individuals based on their ideological affiliation, or to certain ethnic groups that are above other ethnic groups, right, basically they have decided that certain ethnic [00:01:00] groups are more deserving of human dignity than other ethnic groups. And therefore it's the job of the state to care for those groups. I mean, that's fascism 101. And the reason Germans targeted the Jews was because they were disproportionately economically successful, more economically successful than other groups, as a justification for the dehumanization of that group and blaming that group for all of the problems that their society was having well this becomes a problem because that's exactly what the progressive movement does.Would you like to know more?Malcolm Collins: I am so excited to be talking to you today, Simone. What we are going to talk about today is fascism as a concept. Because a lot of people have gotten overly focused on like dictionary definitions of fascism, which I do not think are particularly useful, or like leftist definitions of fascism.One of the, you know favorites here, we have our great episode on Starship Troopers, if you want to see it. But for leftists to call that [00:02:00] world a fascist universe or world, it's just like nonsensical, nothing about it other than literally just the aesthetics fit any historical definition of fascism.And it's like, so is fascism just politics you disagree with and like dressing sexy? Like, is that literally like, do you have no concept that fascism actually needs to be like a unique, political and economic system to exist?Simone Collins: No Malcolm, dressing sharp and being attractive means that you're a fascist. Hello!Malcolm Collins: Right. Having patriotism. So I've been playing Helldivers 2 recently, which is actually pretty fun, I might like try to start a Discord as a server group. I'll add the Discord server thing here for people who are doing that. That'd be a fun thing to do together. But, you know, it's done very much in a Starship Toopersy world.Right. And people, no actually I almost want to do a [00:03:00] separate episode, which I will do, on their concept of managed democracy. Because it works different from fascism, but it's also different from what we would think of as democracy. Insofar as like your vote, they're like: "Oh, imagine a world where everyone could just vote for whoever they feel like, like, wouldn't that be silly? Like, I'm very interested to see who the algorithm chooses is my next candidate that I'm voting for."So they vote by like hitting a button that says Vote and then an algorithm determines who they're voting for based on their interest as an individual. The idea being that individuals - it's actually a really interesting concept.Simone Collins: Oh, so like I want my voice to be heard and the algorithms already understand all my values and stated preferences and therefore...Malcolm Collins: And they can decide better than I can who I would have voted for, because it doesn't really make sense for individuals to...Simone Collins: Honestly, that sounds amazing, because people don't know anything about their candidates these days.Malcolm Collins: Hmhm. Is completely called a personality stuff like that...[00:04:00] So yes, for managed democracy! Spread throughout the galaxy! Anyway. But with Starship Troopers it's not even that. Like the only change they have is that you need to make some sacrifice to vote. And this sacrifice can be military service or civil service. People think it's only military service. No, the book says also civil service. And, and in the movie, that's not explicitly stated civil service can't make you a citizen. So we have to assume that it exists in this universe, given that it's in the source material. Which just means that what they're freaking out about, and I always say like, this is so telling on the left, that they hate this world where all of the things they tell everyone they're trying to achieve have already been achieved. This is the universe that has gender equality. This is the universe that has ethnic equality. This is the universe that has sexual equality. This is even a universe where religions are suppressed to an extent.Simone Collins: Yeah, it's the shared locker rooms that everyone's been going for for ages.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so, so why did they hate it? It's because it never was really about [00:05:00] equality. It's always been about not working. And that the universe demands some level of sacrifice to vote because something given without anything in exchange has no value, as the movie says. And which is actually true, you know. If you can vote without having to sacrifice for that vote you treat the vote trivially, for a lot of people. And it was assumed that we would always remember the sacrifice that was given for our vote. But a lot of people don't anymore. They don't understand the people who suffered and sacrificed. Or they don't care about those people. They devalue them. They say that they were "bad people" for having non-modern views of morality.Simone Collins: They're bigger ones(?), they just don't think about them, at all.Malcolm Collins: I want to get to fascism specifically. What is fascism as a political and economic system?Simone Collins: Okay.Malcolm Collins: So. Capitalism. So, so I'm going to divide these into three core political systems and three core economic systems. Capitalism is a system where... Oh, it's probably easier to start with communism. [00:06:00] Communism is a system where all of the industrial productivity of a nation is primarily under the control of the governing body of that civilization or country, and is then redistributed equally among the population. So the idea is that the people who are at the highest levels of sort of all economics of a system receive all of the wealth that they want from that system. Now, they can divide it in different ways. You can look at something like the Chinese system, which we will argue whether it's fully communist or not. But I think within a communist system it is still reasonable to say we will rent out this thing or we will sell these things that we have produced to another country in order to distribute to the average man what we earn. Right? It's not to say that they never engage with the market economy. It's just that [00:07:00] any engagement with the market economy is meant to serve this goal of maximum equal distribution to the common man.Capitalist systems, or systems in which there is, and this is like true, like within every one of these, I'm discussing like the paragon of this system, right? Not the way they're ever really implemented in reality. Because the U.S. wouldn't fit this definition. Where the organizational structure of what is generating industry in a country is free-forming, and allows organizations within it to grow, and then die because they were out-competed by like new competitive organizations that are more efficient than it. So it's basically a completely decentralized approach to how industry and capital are generated within a state. With the idea being that approach is just so efficient that it uplifts everyone who is in the state more [00:08:00] than a centrally planned system.Simone Collins: Hm.Malcolm Collins: And that it distributes economic resources and industrial capacity to those individuals who are the most competent within a system. And this is often like true. These systems do end up wealthier than other systems. And when people convert to these systems, they often do end up wealthier. So there is an increase in efficiency, but decrease in sort of how capital and everything is distributed.Now, a fascist system is a lot closer to a communist system in that the state, the governing body, can control any industry, any capital allocation within the country.But the goal of that control is different than the goal of the control within a communist system. And so they often choose to exercise this power very differently than the people within communist systems.Simone Collins: It sounds like a difference between a helicopter parent [00:09:00] and a very strict, but otherwise culturally very independent supporting parent.Malcolm Collins: I don't know if I agree with that analogy, but okay. Anyway, the point being is that: in a fascist system, like in a communist system, the government is in control of industry, capital, and the economic system. But the goal of the collection of this money is not equal distribution among the body politic. It is of distribution disproportionately to individuals who are ideologically aligned with whatever ideology the system's looking to promote. So instead of complete equality the system is designed entirely around promoting a specific ideological and cultural framework.Simone Collins: I see what you're saying now. Okay.Malcolm Collins: So, so, so that can be either to like arts and stuff like that, that are designed to [00:10:00] promote a specific ideological framework. Or it can be an unequal distribution within the body politic, where that inequality elevates either certain ethnic groups or certain groups dependent on their political beliefs.And when you divide the three systems this way, the division becomes quite meaningful from like a philosophical and economic perspective. In most fascist systems from history would fall very squarely into this final category. Now, the state within fascist systems often allows for a bit more capitalistic action, i.e. a bit more free forming of bodies and institutions underneath it. Because is just more interested in grabbing as much capital as possible. And those systems generate more capital than the communist systems. However, most communist systems actually end up drifting more towards fascist-like systems over time, as the [00:11:00] political class begins to define their values and their class as more important than other people, which means that now they get a disproportionate share of the resources. You know, some animals are more equal than others. It's a really honestly great line from the books. It's so good at describing. Yes, we're all equal, but some of us are a bit more equal than others. Which is redefining equality to mean those with ideological powers in the community. Now, this all becomes really important when you understand what fascism is through this lens, is that it makes it easier and not an arbitrary thing to call a system fascist. Because right now calling something fascist has, you know, as I pointed out with the Starship Troopers thing, it's become like an aesthetic thing. It's like "I disagree with you, therefore you are a fascist".Simone Collins: Yeah, it's like calling someone racist or a Nazi.Malcolm Collins: But this also allows a fascist system, which is really important, because it's also true with communist and [00:12:00] capitalist systems; they can arise within complete democracies. You, within a democracy, can vote for a fascist.If that fascist, or if that individual, that politician who you've elected, believes their goal to serve their political party is to redistribute the capital of the state to promote the ideological interests of that community, or to individuals based on their ideological affiliation or to certain ethnic groups that are above other ethnic groups, right?Simone Collins: Mm hmm.Malcolm Collins: Whereas in a democracy, you can have a totally communistic system. You can vote and then have the people in power say, "our goal is to distribute capital as equally as possible among the body politic", right?Simone Collins: Hmm.Malcolm Collins: Well, this becomes really interesting, because if you take this framework, which I actually think is a very good and useful framework, and you apply it to our modern political system, the Democratic [00:13:00] Party and the progressive value system is an almost, well while it is rare to have pure expressions of any one of these three systems, it is almost a totally pure expression of fascism.Simone Collins: Hmm.Malcolm Collins: In that they believe their goal is to promote this ultra-progressive urban monoculture, and that they should distribute cash, like the government should distribute cash throughout society. But it should distribute them to certain ethnicities and cultural groups that it sees as being more human or more deserving of human dignity than other cultural groups. And you can see this...Simone Collins: Universal basic income?Malcolm Collins: Yes. So San Francisco has experimented with some universal basic income systems, except they only give it to certain ethnic groups and certain minority populations.Simone Collins: Oh.Malcolm Collins: Basically they have decided that certain ethnic groups are more deserving of human dignity than other ethnic groups, and therefore it's the job of the state to care for those groups. I mean, that's [00:14:00] fascism 101. And I think that people, they're like, "no no no no, that's not like Germany! Germany was targeting, you know, people because they weren't as..." Like no. The reason Germans targeted the Jews was because they were disproportionately economically successful, and they used that, and you can see this, there's like great stats. If you want to go into all the stats into this, because we actually go over it in The Pragmatists Guide to Crafting Religion. If you think Jews, pre the holocaust for some like poor group in Germany, that had no either economic or political power - that just does not coincide with the data that we have. They were vastly more likely, like orders of magnitude more likely, to have jobs like doctors and bankers, and stuff like that, that were high paying within in this world. And we can look at the data on this. And they used that, the fact that one group had been more economically successful than other groups, as a justification for the dehumanization of that group, and blaming that [00:15:00] group for all of the problems that their society was having. Well, this becomes a problem, because that's exactly what the progressive movement does. So they'll say, "oh, well, you know, white men have run our country forever, and they have all the economic resources, and they have all the whatever success, and therefore we are justified in making it difficult for that group to get jobs in, you know, within social media, lynching that group and, and, and people can underestimate they're like, "Oh, they're not really destroying them". When you take someone who's the primary income earner of a large family and you destroy their ability to get a job, and you downplay the effects of doing that, that is genuinely evil. This is a huge thing to do to someone.Simone Collins: And I think what people are missing somehow, because fascism has been villainized for so long aesthetically and in general, is that I think people are under the [00:16:00] impression that if one is in a fascist system everyone knows that they're doing a bad thing. And they're like, "yeah, we're going to bully those people. We're so mean to them. Ha ha ha. Isn't it funny how pathetic they are?" Whereas really it looks like what we're feeling now, which is...Malcolm Collins: Is that not the way progressives see conservatives? "Ha ha ha, we're going to bully these people. Look at how pathetic they are."Simone Collins: It's more like this victimized group, "we are these victims and these people are ruining everything. We need to correct it." That's what's happening.Malcolm Collins: Fascist systems always believe, at least in the early days, that they are being victimized by some other group.Simone Collins: And they have to correct that victimization, that they have to right the wrongs. They have to correct the injustice.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And, and this is actually really interesting, that when you like understand the core difference between fascism and communism and, and, and capitalism, you understand that the modern progressive movement is the purest manifestation of fascism that can [00:17:00] exist. I mean, they are as pure fascism as Mussolini or Hitler. And when you attack these communities - and people can be like, "oh, come on, they wouldn't kill people who fall into these communities that they're dehumanizing". And it's like: do you not like, this is one of those things that happened was in the early Jewish communities. I have a friend who this happened to. When I say friend, it was the grandfather of a girl I was dating in high school.And he read Mein Kampf and he went around to his community and he's saying, "he's saying he wants to literally kill us. Like you, you, you see this, right?" And they thought he was a crazy person and he ended up having to break in and kidnap his girlfriend in the middle of the night, and broke the house's window and took her out. I can only imagine the parents waking up the next day and they're gone. It was the right choice. Everyone in his community was killed. But it, it was a, you know, he was seen as quite insane. Today when I say things like go on to these Twitter communities, [00:18:00] look at what people are saying, even who are thought leaders in these, these groups, who, who talk about killing men, who talk about killing cisgendered men, who talk about killing white people. This is something you will see in these communities among their political organizers very, very frequently. For you to say that they would never actually act on that is very similar to those in these, you know, these Jewish communities in the early, but they're like, they'd never actually act. "Yeah. Oh yeah, he wrote Mein Kampf, but..."Simone Collins: Well, it's this mixture of both dehumanizing the group that you see to be systematically unfair. And also believing them to be causing genuine harm that must be corrected on a societal level. And if not corrected will lead to unending harm, right? Yeah, I think that's the view. And you can look at that and you can see it in Nazi Germany [00:19:00] and you can look at that and you can see it today.Malcolm Collins: No I want to elevate what you just said there. Cause I think that it is really important, right. The key to fascism is identifying specific groups in society. This is, this is one of the ways that fascists rise to power, and say "this group is causing harm in our society", this ideological group often, and therefore they must be gotten rid of. Because harm will continue to come to our society until they are erased. And that morally justifies behavior that you might think that your neighbors could never morally justify. And yet we are already well on the path towards true and total fascism within leftist circles. And I think that, that people don't see how dangerous things are getting, because Nazism [00:20:00] specifically has been used hyperbolically for so long. And people can be like, come on, look, look at this. What is it like "sea to ocean" language that you see on college campuses now, and stuff like that, right.Simone Collins: From the river to the sea.Malcolm Collins: From the river to the sea language, which literally means we need to wipe out all of the Jews in Israel. You see them elevating this kind of language and it being normalized. I mean, kids in colleges like Harvard are going around marching this stuff and not being expelled from school. If you think that they treat all groups as equal... If they said this about a Muslim population, they'd be expelled. They, you know, if they said this about an LGBT population, they'd be expelled.They are converging on the anti-semitism that most fascists in history converge around, but they are including additional [00:21:00] groups alongside that anti-semitism, that historically weren't included. But what I would say is, is they intend to target you. If you're like, "yeah, but I'm a good white cis man". No, no.Simone Collins: Yeah. But also, again, they think that they're doing the right thing. They think that they're the goodies and not the baddies.Malcolm Collins: Nobody... the Nazis didn't think they were the bad guys!Simone Collins: I know, exactly. Exactly. I'm just, I think it's really hard for people to, to...Malcolm Collins: ...realize when they are genuinely the face of evil.Simone Collins: Well, okay. So that they can be the face of evil, but that they are firmly convinced that they are good people doing the right thing, who are empathetic. Who feel deeply for the populations that they are trying to protect, and who see the populations that they are victimizing and harming as the unfeeling, as the enemy.And we have to think about that a little bit more [00:22:00] carefully.Malcolm Collins: No, because this is different, right? You know, you have populations like us where you are able to empathize. At least to a larger extent with progressives, right? Like you're like, they're still human, they're just making mistakes. But at a certain point, you need to say they're like, you need to recognize what the long term consequence of this, this political framework is.Simone Collins: I'm all for addressing this kind of myopic and delusional viewpoint with extreme strictness, and having a zero tolerance policy, but I'm also not for dehumanizing the other side.Malcolm Collins: No, no, no, I agree, I think that you need to call out what their actual politics are.Simone Collins: Yeah, but you can't engage someone mentally, and call them out in a way that they will actually hear, if you are doing that well, dehumanizing them.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But I think that they're [00:23:00] literally Nazis at this point. And now you could say, "oh, calling them literally Nazis at this point is dehumanizing them", because you see Nazis as less than human. But I would say that the people who are called...Simone Collins: When people call us Nazis online, do we spend a lot of time consuming their content and trying to hear their arguments?Malcolm Collins: Simone, I don't think that once somebody has fully bought into this cult, that they're ever going to hear any outside perspective. They don't see us as fully human. No, no, you cannot.Simone Collins: They're capable of seeing us as fully human. So what in the book How Minds Change the, the general thesis of how people actually have their minds changed with very offensive things, you know, things along these lines, where you think that there's no cure, there's no solution, is first you get to people to bond as humans in some way, find common ground, before they ever talk about the subject, to develop some kind of rapport and then they start discussing it, but in the other person's terms.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but here's the point.Simone Collins: Okay.Malcolm Collins: The ways that fascist [00:24:00] ideologies prevent that from happening, prevent people from being deconverted is they create systems where if you are seen as talking with the enemy group you are just as bad as that enemy group.Simone Collins: And that's true. And this is something that really showed up at the natalism conference, right? And the organizers tried so hard to bring in progressive demographers, anyone who was left leaning, who was looking at demographic collapse or population shifts. And for the life of them they could not get a single one to show up. Which is pretty telling. I think, to your point, right, that, that they will simply not be willing to even associate. And people on Twitter constantly hounded us saying, "do you know who's going to this conference, white supremacists are going to this conference, you know, the wrong people are going to this conference". And we're like, yeah, well, so, you know. So I think you're right. That is true, and that's a big problem.Malcolm Collins: The way fascism works - this is what the Nazis did - they said, "if you engage with these communities, especially if you engage with them as equal, like Jews, et [00:25:00] cetera, then you are just as bad as them". And that is how they prevent people from within their circle from realizing that these others are still human.Simone Collins: Yeah, I think, I mean that it is, it is fair. What I'm suggesting is actually to be actively misleading and to not let people know who you are and what you stand for, which is I guess part of what BreadTube was all about, right? So okay, that's not I guess what upper handed of me.Malcolm Collins: It doesn't work, because if they don't know what you stand for, then they can't humanize the other group. If they don't have that...Simone Collins: No, no, no. What I'm saying is: first disguise yourself as someone who's on their side, then get to know them, and then once you have rapport, introduce them to your ideas. Which is how groups on all sides of the spectrum have manipulated other groups.Malcolm Collins: That's an insane thing to do, because then they're like, "Oh, I have been, somebody has been trying to...", they, they report you to like their Gestapo.And this is also really interesting as I've been reading more about the history of the CIA, the FBI, et cetera. These organizations were [00:26:00] never supposed to exist long-term. Even Truman, the guy who created it, said that he regretted doing it. Because these were only supposed to exist in wartime. And the reason is, because when you have a group that's not fully accountable to the American government operating in silence, you know, these groups can become ideologically captured. Which we're already seeing with wokeism was in these groups, right? Is there becoming more and more woke, the individuals I know within them. And they are being used, like was in the Sweet Baby Inc controversy. Government and money is being used to support Sweet Baby Inc right now, right? And the organization's defending it. It shows that they have become so ideologically captured that now they see their purpose as like a secret police that has access to all of your communications in this country enforcing ideological conformity.Simone Collins: Yikes.Malcolm Collins: And elevating the dehumanization of other people, because as anyone knows, the CEO of Sweet Baby Inc, you know, she said that her worst [00:27:00] nightmare was waking up as a white male gamer. Like, she sees that as being such an underclass that she could not even imagine, yeah.Simone Collins: It's been, it's a lot harder now to get hired as a cis white male.Malcolm Collins: No, it's basically impossible within the bureaucratic world these days.Simone Collins: Yeah, no, of course if you want to...Malcolm Collins: If you want to release(?) anything close to your degree level and people who haven't gone out there and tried. Like, Simone and I, because we have similar resumes. Mine's significantly stronger than hers, by the way.Simone Collins: Yeah. So similar is not really correct. Because you have a wildly better resume than I do, and we have applied for the same jobs.Malcolm Collins: And yet, you get literally 3x the job offers I get. It's not even comparable anymore.Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: It is, you need to work twice as hard for the same amount of success. And I think a lot of people are like, "well, then I just give up". They don't give up. You know, this is your opportunity to shine. Many groups out in history have been discriminated against. And if you bow out just [00:28:00] because you're discriminated against by the powers that be, then well, I guess you don't deserve to exist in the future, which is the way the system works.Simone Collins: Oh, this is my groups like that end up essentially producing the people who build society because they're faced with so many selective pressures.Malcolm Collins: Well, and that's why historically immigrants in the U.S. have created most of our new companies and stuff like that, because when you can't get mainstream jobs, you end up creating new companies. And what they're forcing to have happen is predominantly white cis men are going to create most of the companies in this country going forward, because they can't get mainstream jobs.Simone Collins: Yeah. They're being forced to. So, yeah, I, all this stuff about, you know, who built history and present about that. It's well, they weren't given other options. They weren't allowed to marry and be safe.Malcolm Collins: I should point out: It's not just white. It's, it's also black cis males. It's also gay males. It's also, if you have any one of these negative traits, you know, "negative traits", you're on the chopping block, right?Simone Collins: Well... [00:29:00] Anyway, I, that, that is very interesting. You've, you've made me look at, at progressive culture with even more concern. I, you're, you're gonna have to pay for my Botox someday. This furrowed brow, it's your fault.Malcolm Collins: Your laugh lines is what I think the bigger issue.Simone Collins: That's true. Oh my God, I love life with you. At least we have that. And I think a lot of it comes down to building parallel economies, just going a different way, and finding safe, fortified land. I don't know. But I'm still very hopeful.Malcolm Collins: I love you to death, Simone. I have enjoyed chatting with you, as always. Today is... so we record these in batches. So I mentioned this on a few other episodes, but we only just launched our, what is that thing called?Simone Collins: Discord server.Malcolm Collins: Discord server. Sorry. I know so little about this stuff, but I was so excited to see that we're already at like, the 53 active members at just a random time when I joined, 163 people have joined, like, this is cool, like, it's an actual community, and it makes me happy to see that [00:30:00] people are discussing and engaging things on there, and I'm able to, like, drop potential title cards and ask people, which one should I use for today's episode, and... Because usually I'm doing that with you, Simone. And now I won't need to bug you as much, cause they came to the same conclusion you did. And so, now I can leave you alone more. And, and yeah, anyway, I love you to death. You are an amazing human.Simone Collins: I love you too, Malcolm.Malcolm Collins: Have a great day. Oh, and anyone who uses, is like a Wikipedia editor, we really need a Wikipedia page. You can learn more about us at pragmatistfoundation.org. That's where we have, like, a link list of all the press links. We've been in, like, tons and tons and tons of major media. I don't know why we don't have one yet. I think it's just an initiative thing at this point. Love you.Simone Collins: Hey, Malcolm, isn't it kind of funny where before when I asked if you wanted a quickie, you knew that it was something a little sexy, and now it's a podcast.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Do we have time for a quick podcast?Simone Collins: Yeah, but by the way, before we even start, I just have to say [00:31:00] you are the MVP of the day. You had three very rambunctious kids. You managed to take to change tires, go shopping, get chicken feed. And they were so happy. So anyway, you rock.Malcolm Collins: I just want you to move all this to the end. Cause this is not going to be good for SEO to have random conversation at the beginning. Get full access to Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm at basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

Guest Daniel Hess, @MoreBirths on Twitter, discusses cultural influences on fertility rates worldwide. Topics include anti-natalist propaganda, historical events, and solutions for combating demographic collapse. The conversation explores Population Connection's impact on American and Canadian schools, highlighting the organization's efforts to educate teachers and students on world population growth.

Join us as we dive into my wife Simone's diary from 2012, where she recounts our wild first date! From her initial infatuation and nervousness to our strategic dating approaches and instant chemistry, this unfiltered look into Simone's thoughts will give you a glimpse of how our relationship began. We discuss the importance of transparency, confidence, and shared interests in dating, and how our core values and goals have remained consistent over the years. Discover how two methodical, driven individuals found their perfect match and ended up married, despite the odds. Get ready for some cringeworthy yet adorable moments!Simone Collins: Look, look If only I told myself that I might end the evening making out with this dude I would obviously say I was crazy. Total braggadocio, this Malcolm, but he's also refreshingly blunt and open. He got involved for a reason. He is exceedingly driven. The term world domination came up a couple of times. God, he's like me, but a year older, male, and not innocent and guileless. So cringe. So he wants to put it before us. In place, a power system that guarantees that his interest in protecting individuality is perpetuated., hence the quote, taking over the world, unquote, part of his equation. God, how delicious is that, right? He's cute, he's smart, he's sociopathic, and he's driven, he's future oriented, he's tech oriented, and he's power hungry? SWOON! I still am sorry.Would you like to know more?Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone! So, with your upcoming pregnancy and the lengths it [00:01:00] takes to do the tracked videos, We mean delivery.Simone Collins: With my upcoming delivery. Delivery, what are you saying? I'm already pregnant. I've beenMalcolm Collins: pregnant. Pregnancy, delivery, yes, you know. We've decided to stop doing those on Fridays for a while and I might, and I was like, okay, what can I do that's like special on Fridays that would be really fun and different?And what we're going to do is go through At least this day, and we'll see how it does, her diaries from when she first met me, you can call this, we'd actually adapted this into a book at one point but we never ended up publishing it, which was like an annotated version of her diaries from the year she met me as a, what, a 21 year old virgin or whatever.Simone Collins: It was frankly too cringe, and this is going to be incredibly cringe. Yeah, yourMalcolm Collins: sex quest.Simone Collins: It was not a sex quest. I was on a quest to fall in love and have my heart broken in one year. And okay, yeah, sex is part of that, but still.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I think it's more, yeah, but I hear you. So you, you were this person. So first talk about the quest and then get into your writing, starting with when you met me, I [00:02:00] guess.Simone Collins: In 2012, I turned, 24 years old. And I decided that in that year, my new year's resolution, the big one would be to fall in love and have my heart broken all in one year, because I intended to live alone forever. I intended to not have any kids, never get married. I really never encountered anyone who I could even stomach the idea of Dating, the idea of someone associating themselves with me, even, even saying that we were dating made me literally sick to my stomach.So I knew that marriage wasn't for me, obviously, but I still wanted to fall in love and have my heart broken so that I could tell people I tried it and it was massively underwhelming. So hence this goal, I created a very keyword stuffed and optimized. Okay. Cupid profile, just to make sure that I got very qualified leads.I spammed any guy who might be a potentially interesting match [00:03:00] on. Okay. Cupid, which gives a woman a huge advantage because. Guys never get messages from girls. And I also had a competitive dating game going in my office where we got points for, you know, the number of people we dated, first date, second date, how long the date lasted, all sorts of things to just make this something that encouraged me to get out because dating is terrifying and I didn't actually want to spend time with people, but I needed to achieve my goal.And it really helped that there were other single people in the office, my age. So yeah, thank God startups don't really have we actually had an HR person who at the same time was part of this whole dating thing.Malcolm Collins: So, oh my God, I love it. SimoneSimone Collins: initially hired as an interior decorator. So, you know, she probablyMalcolm Collins: didn't know that you shouldn't have competitive dating games where you get points for doing stuff with people in an office.Fine. Okay. Okay. Now go to theSimone Collins: Well, so anyway I will, I will get to reading my diaries just for context by this point, it's March, [00:04:00] so I'm three months into my dating journey. I'd been on a bunch of dates at that point. So this is just a point at which I am starting to. encounter some momentum.So this entry that I'm about to read is me analyzing two previous dates I'd gone on, I think that week, cause I just scored them. I had a scoring system determining if someone was worth a second date. So just for context, cause that's going to seem otherwise really weird. Friday, March 16th, 2012. 10 0 8 p.m. Yeah, both of those were new high scores. The third highest Dr. Trevor and Francois is Nick with 36. How promising. Just yesterday I was feeling totally dejected on the dating front. Now there's this plus I have more potentials lined up. As of now I have a dinner plus drink state scheduled with one underscore dash M dash underscore of Redwood city for Sunday night.Plus I'm sussing out plans [00:05:00] with I'm not going to give this person the D head of design at startup. As well as dos underscore toy, AKA not giving his real name a who describes himself in his profile as amazingly good in bed and has a twin.Malcolm Collins: Okay. So I love the. I'm obviously am here the one person whose name she didn't fully give because she didn't have it yet.And I find this very interesting because it's different than the way you remembered it. You had remembered being infatuated with me from the first moment you saw my profile. And it's very clear here that she does not become infatuated with me until later. Yeah, I'mSimone Collins: infatuated with my lead list at this point.Malcolm Collins: Right. But it also shows how you were handling your leads. You weren't really getting invested in profiles or personas was in these profiles until the guy got back to you, which shows that you really were doing a spamming technique at the time, which is actually pretty impressive for a woman. In terms of the arbitrage game that that allowsSimone Collins: you.[00:06:00]Yeah, good for me, right? IMalcolm Collins: Yes, good for you. That's exactly what I'd expected from the type of woman I ended up marrying. I'm a littleSimone Collins: bit proud of myself. Yeah, I don't, I don't tend to remember anything that happens in my past because I don't really care. So it's fun to go through this. All right. March 17th, 2012.St. Patrick's Day. 1225 PM. So far so good to keep on track. I've opted out of feed catch up on the elliptical that this is when I used to, you know, remember RSS feeds Malcolm anyway and have instead taken the past two hours to make my first donation of the year, 208 via donors choose for math supplies to be used in an Oakland classroom, decide which videos to shoot today and thinking one about trends, one about letter closings and two about insults and begin formatting.Previously unpublished trendspotting college papers on HubPages, which is the startup I used to work at.Malcolm Collins: I was there. I think it's funny that we're hearing about these videos that are still on this channel. Like you can see the videos she was making at this time on this channel. This was the last year she was really [00:07:00] active and that initial big video spurt on this channel.Simone Collins: Yeah. And this is Malcolm's choice to keep them there. I'm really I love them. I hate you so much. Earlier this morning, M sent me a message with a link to his Facebook profile, asking me to friend him so he knows who to look for and that I'm a real person. I sent him a flippant Facebook message about being 100 percent genuine and having a user manual and then proceeded to fall into a fundamental crisis after looking through his Facebook profile.Facebook photos, which reveal him to be a sort of visual hybrid of Daniel Radcliffe and Charlie McDonald. Charlie is so cool. Like who is well traveled studied for at least a year in England and is in always Simone catnip.Malcolm Collins: I love this. So there's a.Few things to note here that are really interesting. One of these, because of this is when you were making these videos on YouTube people want to get an impression of like who I was meeting back then or who this person is. They can go look at those early videos on your [00:08:00] channel. That's what this is.Another one, Charlie McDonald ended up transitioning, right? Yeah,Simone Collins: he is now a woman. So times have changed, man. Yeah. And I had a total YouTube crush on him at the time.Malcolm Collins: And the other one is so I really did do this Facebook thing because it really lowered the probability of catfishing. People's Facebook pages are, you know, you have way more photos, so it's much easier and photos uploaded by other people.So it's much easier to find unflattering photos. And we actually ran into somebody at a party after this who like, Took umbrage to the fact I had done this. And she was like cause this is later covered in her diary when I was going back through it, I saw this and I had forgotten about it, but yeah, somebody at a party was like, Oh yeah, I didn't end up dating you because you demanded that you see my Facebook profile before you end up meeting me.And it's like, well, yeah, like, I don't understand. You would meet a human being in person. Like you think that that is less revealing than showing them. You know, your Facebook profile. Well, and what [00:09:00] ISimone Collins: forgot about this too is how two way it is. You're not just requesting access to their profile. You're, you're giving them access to your history and you were active on Facebook and still are very active on Facebook.That's when I really fell for you is when I looked through your Facebook profile, I see all these photos and you're 100 percent my type, but then you're also so fancy. I was just. Utterly, utterly.Malcolm Collins: I love it. Well, yeah. And I also wonder why somebody would deny access to a Facebook profile. I think it was probably that she was dating someone like that's a really easy way to see if somebody is cheating on a partner because it's pretty hard to list yourself as single on Facebook if you are not actually single.But yeah, so apparently I am, if we're using this video as like a guide How to secure a partner. You know, obviously I'm working on disability here by disability. What I mean is I have a handicap, like a big advantage. Because she already finds me very attractive but it is [00:10:00] worth noting.Simone Collins: But here's my hot take just real quick on why I think that that particular young woman decided that she wasn't going to share her Facebook profile with you, because I listen to, to fall asleep a ton of really shitty romance novels, and it's very common for the female to be.Rude. And very confrontational with male prospects, even, and perhaps, especially if she likes them, like who gave you the right to do that? You know, you don't tell me what to do. You're kind of bossy, aren't you? And that isMalcolm Collins: a Sunday type. No, theSimone Collins: moment, but it's not even, it's not even that, I don't know what, it's just being a b***h, but it's, I, it, it is a common trope and it seems to be widely societally accepted that being sassy toward a man, especially if you like him is.It's going to be,Malcolm Collins: I don't know. And if you're a guy and you're dating, you need to shut that down the very first time it happens and filter out anybody who doesn't take being shut down for that. I mean, not like in an emotional way, but just be like, I'm sorry, [00:11:00] I won't take somebody who does this. And that's likely what happened with her where I was just like, no,Simone Collins: bye.Well, it was a good filtering effect. So anyway, all right. Back to my diary entry. My reaction to this discovery, of course, was to assume already that he detests me, slash, finds me somewhat disgusting, and to rue the moment I ever decided to reach out to him on OKC in the first place. Yes, I made the first move.This reaction is a natural consequence of my general belief that disliking Simone is a general sign of good taste. I suppose it's bonkers that I should make this assumption, especially because he responded to my initial message, DESPITE A HORRID TYPO, with And here's your message.. Ah, I was going to email you, but you had all the nerdy stuff on your profile. So I figured you got flooded with emails and that mine would get buried. Honestly, this is Silicon Valley. How do girls think they will get dates by being prissy, but virtually all of them do it.Anyway, answering those questions would take about 20 minutes, so I would rather do it in person than waste morning typing them out. Would you be up for meeting sometime in the near [00:12:00] future? But ugh, I hate my life. End of entry,Malcolm Collins: so. I love, well one, you're stressing about like typos. Did you even check mine for typos?I'm sure it had typos.Simone Collins: Well, and you even write in your OkCupid profile that you make tons of spelling mistakes.Malcolm Collins: But I think the message is also like, I masterclass on dating someone, but it is. So you had reached out to me with a bunch of questions about the company I was starting at the time becauseSimone Collins: you mentioned that in your profile.And that seems likeMalcolm Collins: you didn't want to look like, you know, you were only interested in me sexually and you wanted to, which is smart to do. But also it was me, you know, making myself look somewhat unavailable and important, which is all true. Like I wasn't misrepresenting myself, but it is. But also let's meet as soon as possible.You know, I am not dicking around in terms of the engagement with this message or in any ways being disingenuous which I think is also, you know, of high utility and also don't waste time. You know, if you're doing [00:13:00] high throughput dating, like, as I said, at the time, I was trying to do five dates a week, at least you don't have time to fully respond to every one of these individual questions.And if someone, someone showing interest in you, then, then move forwardsSimone Collins: with it. Yeah, no, and a theme throughout this is your transparency is one of the things that really stands out and is super underrated and dating. Okay, back to the diary. Sunday, March 18th, 2012. O bus. And I say that I would sometimes put the location of where I was.I didn't have a car, so I had to use public transport to get everywhere. 2. 22 PM. I also really hope that Malcolm does not flake out tonight. I really want to get the lowdown on his life, if nothing more. We shall see what happens. 2. 33 p. m. Oh s**t. Just looked at Malcolm's profile again and am reminded of exactly why he is like Simone Katnipp.Look, look, and then I copied and pasted your entire OkCupid profile which I'm really glad I did because it's amazing. I'm [00:14:00] not going to read it all because it's quite long. This was, these were back, this was before OkCupid was broken. When you had long form profiles with lots of information and could really show a lot of wit and other things aside from just your looks to make yourself attractive to other people, which is.Total loss. But yeah, I was getting really nervousMalcolm Collins: about meeting you. We might do a different video analyzing the OkCupid profile if people want that. But we, you know, we talked through it beforehand. We're like, Oh, we don't know. Maybe people want it. Maybe they don't. Yeah.Simone Collins: Request it in the comments if you really, really want it.But you know, so anyway, after pasting your profile, I type must keep expectations exceedingly low. He will flake if he does not flake, he will what could possibly go wrong? I will look horrid and not at all be his type. And he will do whatever he can to make the meeting as short as possible. He will find my personality and habits to be narrow and pathetic.I will come across as a complete dunce and he will feel uncomfortable hanging out with someone who does not drink. Cause I didn't drink at the time. We will not be able to decide on someplace to eat. He will make up an [00:15:00] excuse to have to leave right away. The wind will make my hair a haggard mess. He will make me look like a poorly traveled simpleton.I will reveal far too much about myself. I will bore him. His car will be stolen. I will vomit for no particular reason. All of those things are not so bad. I suppose. Whatever happens, happens.Malcolm Collins: So I love this for two reasons. One is, is I think it was very good psychological technique that you used here. You were stressed about some sort of social situation, and so you just went through everything that could go wrong and then internalized.It's really not that bad. Even the worst potential outcome. It's all just some form of inconvenience or social rejection. But the second thing is. is this is a person who you ended up marrying. So for all those people who are out there stressed, or you're on a date with someone who you think is impossibly beyond you, or you're on a date with someone and you just see them as like a, another person, you know, there's so much emotions behind every one of these interactions.[00:16:00]And you know, you can read the rest of her diary. Well, not you can, but I have, and you're going to publish it at one point, an edited version. This is a completely unedited version. This is the raw actual diary. And you in this version you don't, Well, in all versions, you don't talk like this about any of the other guys.Like this date was very different from the other day. I don't, I don't think you got stressed about any of the other guys or anything.Simone Collins: Yeah. Always this paragon of everything I was into and you stillMalcolm Collins: are gorgeous. And I, and I did mention in the notes when we had done it to, to make it the book that I actually did like turn around and walk out of the room one day after seeing what the girl looked like, because she looks so different from her pictures.And I was just like, no.Simone Collins: And that's why you do Facebook.Malcolm Collins: Yes. That's why I check Facebook. You know, I, I was a mean ish thing to do, but she should have looked more real in her pictures.Simone Collins: So. Well, and I bet it's even worse now with all the filters people are using. It's insane. So [00:17:00] you can also. The even more manipulative, like you can really show real pictures of yourself.You don't have to like Photoshop anything. You don't have to be technical. You can just useMalcolm Collins: them. You know, I also want to elevate why I hadn't emailed Simone on the app because I mentioned it in the email, but it's actually important. Her profile, she was in Stormtrooper armor in most of her pictures, which is Two problems.One is it's a way she could be hiding how she really looks and two, it's incredibly nerdy, so I expected arbitrage wise, she was gonna get tons of extra outreach, and she was also posting all the memes and everything on her profile, and so she just seemed like absolute Like a player of the arbitrage game of Silicon Valley to the extent that I thought that this is a woman who must be getting made, you know, passes on all the time.And so she's going to overvalue herself. And she's probably also hiding that she's not that attractive which. We're both really wrong in terms of my assessment but it, it, it does show why you didn't get outreach to me because I had seen your profile before and I was just like, Oh, it's one of [00:18:00] those, you know, e thought pages, basically the perfect girl who everyone's reaching out at, but like, well constructed gamer girl, you know what I mean?I'm actuallySimone Collins: surprised because I. Don't remember getting a ton of inbound interest on OkCupid. And I wonder if that's because algorithmically they figured that any woman who actually contacted men is either trying to scam them or sell them something or not real. That could be theMalcolm Collins: case. Yeah. Cause I just didn't get that muchSimone Collins: message.I was like, Oh gosh, am I that ugly? It was bad. Anyway. So yes, let's see. Okay. So that was the last diary entry before the date. Now we have the first diary entry after our first date. 10 43 PM. Holy s**t. It's like, it's like He's my kryptonite. If only I told myself that I might end the evening making out with this dude on some random floor of the Four Seasons, I [00:19:00] would obviously say I was crazy.God. Oh man. Wow. Ha. This is hilarious. He is a total egomaniac, a total sociopath, a totally self involved, overly confident, rule breaking bundle of perfection. Oh God. I was really. You got me, Malcolm. I can, God, where do I start? I waited for him in the middle of the field at Yerba Buena Gardens. He was very easy to spot when he showed up since he was wearing what is apparently his signature vest, shirt, and tie.When I waved and started walking over to him, some other guy thought I was waving to him, and as Malcolm reached out to shake my hand, that guy was all, Oh, I thought, wow, that there's this beautiful girl waving to me, which was favorable because it painted me in a totally flattering light. Anyhow, I kind of giggled and smiled to that man, then reached out and shook Malcolm's partially retracted hand, and he introduced himself, and I introduced myself, and we walked off the [00:20:00] field.I'm so glad that that man said that I was a cat.Malcolm Collins: Do you remember I had said something about it at the time? Like, can you believe heSimone Collins: thought Yeah. I remember you saying that. Yeah. You were saying something like, man, can you believe he thought you were going to meet with him? But yeah, he was my wingman.My stranger,Malcolm Collins: heSimone Collins: was my social proof. I'm sure it works for women to red pillars talked about it all the time. Right. That they had a word for it. Whatever. But yeah, having a lot of people make you look like you're desirable. I'm so glad he did that. All right. 11. 45 p. m. home in bed. Dad picked me up at BART, but I have to write that s**t down before going to bed.Jesus. Remember I didn't have a car and I lived on the island of Alameda, which is outside San Francisco where we met. So I had to take the public transport of the Bay Area called BART back home. And then my dad picked me up. It was really late. My dad's so nice. Thank you, dad. I was a kid. We were kids back [00:21:00] then.We were so, you know, I mean, because these days, like yeah, 20 year olds are kids. Anyway, we grabbed a dinner and drinks at Amber India. I've walked past there tons of times. This was my first time actually inside. He was very deliberate about everything, getting us seated, ordering us drinks, et cetera. How adorable.This was Simone's first dinner and drinks date. I should add that. On all my previous dates, I'd only gone for like walks or gotten coffee withMalcolm Collins: people. Because you couldn't eat in public back then. Like, you were breaking major Simone rules. People don't, like, Simone has a lot of rules about how she interacts with the world.That's us recording in different rooms. Because it stresses her out to be around somebody when she's talking. Just like, you know, she's autistic, right? Like, she struggles with this stuff. And at the time, you didn't eat out at all, you were just conceding because I had asked you to and I spoke about this authoritatively, and I'd also say, if you're a guy and you're dating, everything I'm doing here is what you need to do, like you need to know the place that you're going to, you need to know [00:22:00] what you want to order, you need to not be indecisive, you need to show that you can plan and have everything under control.And you can tell that this is not something that she experienced on her otherSimone Collins: dates. Nope, not at all. No, you were amazing. And also you had this routine where you would choose a restaurant and tip well at that restaurant so that you always got good service. Like this wasn't just. have a plan. It was know your, know your place, know your route, know your territory.Malcolm Collins: All my high value dates in San Francisco at the same restaurant. Well, not the low value ones because it was a media, you know, expensive ish restaurant. And so, I couldn't afford to do all the dates. They're just a really high value prospects. And then other than that, I'd just be doing sort of screening dates somewhere else for us, like a coffee shop orSimone Collins: something.Yeah. Okay. I will continue right off the bat. We ordered drinks. Oh, I should also add, I, I didn't drink. Yeah. No, I rememberMalcolm Collins: we sat down and you go I don't drink. I'm [00:23:00] sorry. As you heard from one of the beginning things that she was afraid of, but I think she was dull because she didn't drink. And I just told her, I'm sorry.I. I'm not going to date you if you don't drink.Simone Collins: Yeah, well, I wrote, I was honest and I said, I never drink, but also said I was amenable to giving it a go again. Like I'm so desperate for you, Malcolm.Malcolm Collins: I remember the drink we got was like a pink elephant or something or some sort of pink drink. Anyway,Simone Collins: we need to order it again when we go back.It's Amber India is still alive and well. Thank God. Already I knew that this was the sort of guy who could lift my OCD rules. At the time I thought all I had was OCD. I didn't get diagnosed with autism until our son was diagnosed. He ordered me something pink with muddled strawberry and we chatted for quite a while before ordering dinner.He did most of the talking and the conversation was all over the place. He talked about St. Andrew's where he went to school. God, what an incredible place. Old castles and cathedrals. Thedrals, tons of traditions, blah, blah, blah. Apparently he took on extra courses and got involved with multiple academic houses.[00:24:00]Total braggadocio, this Malcolm, but he's also refreshingly blunt and open. He got involved for a reason. He is exceedingly driven. The term world domination came up a couple of times. God, he's like me, but a year older, male, and not innocent and guileless. So cringe.Malcolm Collins: It's not cringe, it is incredibly sweet.This is what every guy wants in the girl they meet. Yeah,Simone Collins: yeah. Yeah, you were certainly well, maybe not everyMalcolm Collins: guy, every guy who's likeSimone Collins: me. Yeah. Well, you're no one's like you because you're amazing. And I love you. He talked about his childhood a bit, got kicked out of school a couple of times. Apparently liked breaking the rules might've gotten to military school, got in fights.He shared fantastic, a side of point at. He shared a fantastic aside at one point about the art of fighting in those settings. It is not all about fighting dirty. It's about knowing where to hit to make a good show. Causing, causing blooding noses and black eyes and stuff. He also went to three or four sleepover summer camps a [00:25:00] year in which he would study social dynamics and try to the best extent possible to gain becoming popular, which he concluded, and I entirely agree, is not something one can break down to a science because the social dynamics of a group change every time. In addition, he was super open about his policy with girls. That brilliant jerk. He would actually try out different conversational approaches with girls over AIM, you.Aim for you people who are too young was an early chat site. And would record the successful ones throughout high school. He would actually engage in trial and error with different tactics. And he said in so many words that he can basically have any girl he wanted. He's so full of himself, but he's also added that it's convenient that he's attractive.I'd call him full of s**t if he weren't the epitome of my type.Malcolm Collins: I feel like that was interesting. There's a lot of people. So, so a couple of things, you know, we've mentioned on episodes before that, like, I'm generally considered attractive in the world of women, not in the world of men. And by that, what I mean, yes, [00:26:00] you're not a man.Women know that I'm what is considered attractive. Super hot guy looks like, where a lot of men hear me say that and they go, but you're not an ultra masky man, man. And it's like, that's not what women areSimone Collins: into here. Oh, thank God you're not gay, Malcolm. I'll just say that. You'd beMalcolm Collins: screwed, I guess. Well, yeah.One how you like obviously how you physically look, but a lot of this, and you can tell this from, from the way that you're writing, this is just confidence in who you are. Mm-Hmm. self knowledge and not hiding anything, you know? Yeah. When someone like Simone, I clearly like. While I had techniques that I had built up to try toSimone Collins: date better.You were 100 percent transparent about them.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And I wasn't using them just to like sleep around a lot anymore or anything like that. You know, at this point, I think I made very clear on our date early on that it's interesting that you didn't record it, that I was looking for a wife. Oh, it's, it'sSimone Collins: later in the century.Okay. Yeah. Yeah. He said he used to have More of a need for sex and all that jazz, my words, not his, and I slowed down a bit because, and yes, he really did say this. He [00:27:00] has learned the difference between good and bad masturbation. He actually said, and mentioned later that he is currently looking for a wife since it is an efficient decision.They can combine friend sets so we wouldn't have to work hard at socializing. He doesn't have to go hunting for sex. And there was another reason, but I can't remember it. I love that little slip there, by the way. So we wouldn't have to work hard at socializing. I've already inserted myselfMalcolm Collins: into the, Oh gosh.ISimone Collins: didn't notice. You're so sweet. I don't, I don't think I noticed that either when I was writing. I think it was a little, a little sip.As to what I meant by the masturbation comment Once you get really good at seducing women and you really no longer find it a challenge that you can basically sleep with whoever you want whenever you want. You'll soon realize that the only thing that gave sex value or over masturbation. Was that it was difficult in high status.Maybe not everyone feels that way, but I think a [00:28:00] lot of the population, if they were honest with themselves would be like, yeah, sex is a ton of effort. And masturbation is just easier outside of any bonding effects. It has. Then feels about as good because I mean, of course, why wouldn't it? You couldn't literally choose every aspect of the experience for yourself. , and optimize it for whatever you are specifically interested in.Simone Collins: Oh, he's so on it. So strategic. Why am I not him? It's so f*****g unfair. That's in all caps. We didn't just talkMalcolm Collins: actually. Hold on. I want to comment on that statement because I've noticed with girls, this is what infatuation often looks like or love often looks like or like love at first sight with girls is they want to be the person.Simone Collins: Yeah, they look at the person andMalcolm Collins: they're like, I want to be someone like that. And that's what creates the romantic connection. Whereas guys don't have this sameSimone Collins: Yeah. But I mean, in terms [00:29:00] of, you know, we talk in the pragmatist guide to relationships about this one relationship format we think is best personally, which we call the Pygmalion relationship in which one are both partners.Helps you become the person you always wished you could become. And I think women find that type of man really attractive, especially if they want this kind of relationship, because what better person to advise you on becoming who you want to be, if they are like what you want to be, you know, the advice that you get from someone is only going to get you.Approximately to where they are. Right. So you can see why I was so excited. We didn't just talk about the more crass things in life. He also got into this business idea he's working on and recruiting support on it's past midnight and I need to go to sleep. So this is the gist. He basically sees human consciousness as a really valuable thing.And he basically sees his purpose in life as protecting it. He also assumes. , through NeuroSky, who you worked for at the time. And, Current technological trends that humans will be able to essentially connect their brains and therefore their consciousnesses to [00:30:00] computers within 200 years, and that soon thereafter, they will be able to form networks.It is at this point that the sense of self will soon begin to degrade. People will begin to form what I recall being referred to in Accelerando as the Borganism. He refers to this hypothetical network consciousness as the omega network. Malcolm, much like myself, is highly independent and values human independence.He also believes that distributed decision making and individuality is what allows human society to both progress and defend itself. Don't you love how consistent we are? Malcolm therefore believes it is of extreme importance that someone prevent the human computer technology to come from allowing this networked consciousness to emerge.He sees himself as that someone. This is why Malcolm wants to be at the forefront of this business. So far, as he is concerned, that is not enough. He acknowledges that this technology might not be fully developed in our lifetimes. So he wants to put it before us. In place, a power system that guarantees that his interest in protecting individuality is perpetuated. Hence [00:31:00] the quote, taking over the world, unquote, part of his equation. God, how delicious is that, right? He's cute, he's smart, he's sociopathic, and he's driven, he's future oriented, he's tech oriented, and he's power hungry? SWOON! I still am sorry. But isn't that interesting that like, how things have moderated?I mean, one thing that I think you've discovered since we first met and as things have evolved in society is that you don't need people to actually have full out brain computer interfaces to start thinking. Like a monolith, which is scary.Malcolm Collins: It is also interesting. You see here a few things. And actually in the book, I had edited out this part because I was like this is the completely unedited diary.Cause I was like, well, you know, it's a little too specific, but back then I was working in brain computer interface. So direct connection with the human brain to technology, similar to like Neuralink and stuff like that. And I really saw this as the. future. And I don't disagree with anything I [00:32:00] said all the way back then was in 200 years, we will have the capacity to directly communicate with other people's brains.And this does create a genuine risk of some sort of well, Omega network or homogenization, homogenization, the erasure of human individuality, which I would see as a negative. And I think I really haven't changed my core philosophical position, maintaining here. I'm talking about diversity of the individual, like the individual mind.Whereas today I'm talking about diversity of cultural groups, right? But it's still the core value proposition of maintaining human diversity and empowering that to work together to make us stronger. The things which become these monoliths in, in, in a way people could say, well, this is actually his secret goal along to create some sort of intergenerationally stable power structure that can prevent the Omega network [00:33:00] from consuming all of humanity.I wouldn't saySimone Collins: that. That's what the modern prenatalist movement is also about. It's about preventing the pervasion of a couple of dominating cultures that don't permit the existence of. Diversity or other views or preventing the, like a complete takeover of the urban monoculture.Malcolm Collins: And when we went over this in private, you know, you, you really highlighted it as something that you've sort of mentioned in a roundabout way here a few times is, you know, Meganet has already come to exist.That's what the urban monoculture is. Yeah. People didn't need direct brain interfaces. To homogenize all of their thinking and perspectives, which is scary to see. But yeah, it's also interesting to see that we've been so future oriented and always had them sort of like big plan that takes place across multiple generations to try to protect our species.And the plan hasn't really changed thatSimone Collins: much. It really hasn't. Yeah. I thought it had more. Honestly, I thought that we had changed more. We've [00:34:00] learned a lot. But our mooring points are quite similar. Okay, let's see. Before I continue, I should also point out that he might actually have what it takes to achieve his goal of setting in place some sort of power system.He literally referred to building a religion at some point, after which I slipped an unnoticed cake reference into the conversation. And while it's, it's true. A laughable proposition for most people. This guy's drive, charisma, and smarts isn't going to hurt his prospects. And that is something that I loved about you from the very beginning.And I think it's something that women really love about men in general is not just that they dream big. And I think dreaming big is not enough. Being confident is not enough. Those, those are really big factors in attractiveness. It's recognizing that that person actually has. Agency and from the beginning, it was so clear that you had a ton of agency and ability to actually act on what you cared aboutMalcolm Collins: when I think the founding, the religion thing and everything like that.So much of what I'm doing today. A lot of people act like because they're just beginning to meet me now that I'm sort of [00:35:00] like a loose cannon that's acting in ways that planned out from my early childhood. It's just not the case. Yeah. Everything I'm doing now was planned out from my early childhood, it's just the core threats to our species are different than I predicted at this time period, but it's not that the threats that I predicted at this time period aren't real or don't exist, or that my timescale was wrong, it's just the Some threats that I didn't anticipate basically came out of nowhere.Like I really didn't think the urban monoculture would be this aggressive at stamping out free speech. I really didn't think that fertility collapse would happen back when I was writing all this, you know, or at least be the level of threat that I think it is today. Especially within our lifetimes, which is why it's become the new core focus.Yeah.Simone Collins: Let's see. What's more, he shared that from early on, he's been interested in studying and infiltrating subcultures. Seriously, we're just scarily similar. And it had a particular interest in cults in high [00:36:00] school. So this kid read and studied the heck out of them. To build on that front, he also started digging into local subcultures.As soon as he came here, he got in with the singularity folks who apparently live in a very cult like situation and are highly tied with the sea studying movement. Plus are obsessed with healthy diets, have more men than women and have polyamorous tendencies, transhumanists, more equally distributed gender wise and makers, several subsets of maker culture.Actually, I feel like such a total failure next to him. It's so unfair. Why did I not do all that? How does one even find these people? I really did love weird subcultures and I was so impressed by how. You'd spent very little time, relatively speaking, in the Bay Area and yet you grew up there. I grew up there and I didn't know half of any of the weird subcultures that you had encountered.Malcolm Collins: I think this is such a good indicator that you should marry someone, is that they live a life. that you are envious, not because of their success or [00:37:00] whatever, but of the things that they're just going out and doing, or that somebody is envious of your life because it shows that they want to do more of the type of things that you want to do.Right? Like, it's so funny when people were talking recently, when they're like, I can't imagine working with my spouse, like you two do Being around them 24 seven. How do you deal with that? And it's like, because we all, we like the same things. We like being around each other. Even in these early days, you're seeing the things I'm doing and you're thinking, I wish I could do those things too, which is a great thing to meet somebody who's interested in.Yeah.Simone Collins: I asked him how he managed to get out so much. If he isn't much of a people lover and he pointed. Back to his purpose in life and how he deferred his attendance at Stanford business school, because he wanted to take time to build a network before starting, he wants to start this business venture ASAP.It seems he also referred off handedly to the various societies joined in school. Some of which are allegedly secret quote. I [00:38:00] love secret societies, unquote that jerk, which helped give him an in in many cases. I realized while sitting across from him that, well, if I want to get a peek at some of these deliciously fascinating groups of people, Malcolm is my in, which is both tremendously promising and very troublesome.To your point, Malcolm. AndMalcolm Collins: you ended up becoming the, the managing director of dialogue, which was a secret society funded by Peter Thiel. And now you're like really in with all the secret society networks. We built one out for shrimp futures. So even that interest, like none of my interests have really changed.It's remarkable how consistent I am and your interest in these interests hasn't changed. Yeah,Simone Collins: it is really well because we feel like so much has changed, but not so much, but I'm glad I'm glad. All the while we're eating, he ordered a total of three drinks, plus two for me, and an appetizer for us to share, and we each got an entree, and he kept goading me to drinks, saying all that crap about having low tolerance is totally off, blah blah blah.I totally knew what he was up to. But rather didn't care. [00:39:00] What the heck? I thought, I know I want to get back into drinking at least socially eventually, and this seemed like the perfect opportunity at one point he started trashing water saying some b******t about how fish s**t in it, to which I responded with a sarcastic, Hmm, but it's so tasty to which he responded with what I imagine was a perfectly calculated and suggestive, suggestive, and to think I will might can't remember which be kissing those lips.It was at that point that I pulled out my whole, I haven't been kissed in five years zinger and asked him if he found that disappointing to which he responded in the negative and . began proposing various reasons why I might have made that decision. And I basically explained to him that I found emotions and relationships to be highly inconvenient.I may have also explained this briefly before, but if not, I also told him I decided not to even consider unboxing my sexuality until this year and already found it highly troublesome. So it was all out on the table, which to be quite honest, [00:40:00] was refreshing.Malcolm Collins: So a few things to note here. One is the suggestion I made to you, if I might be kissing those lips later, is used to reduce sort of miscommunication because I am signaling my intentionality to you, and you could have said, I'm not interested in that or not on the first date or, and instead what you said was, well, I haven't kissed someone in five years.Which is saying, basically, not I consent, basically I consent, like, yeah, okay, you know, I'm notSimone Collins: saying no. I consent, but I'm what's the word?Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I can sit, but I'm insecure. That's the, the underlying thing that's being communicated in that response. And then me engaging was the response in an analytical format, you know, basically not talking down to her for it, not talking up to her for it being like, well, I can see why somebody might do that for X, Y, and Z reasons.shows that I accept her position without accidentally [00:41:00] denigrating her which is very easy to do in a situation like this or making her moreSimone Collins: stressed. Yeah, no, you, great game, Malcolm. Around this time, I was finally starting to feel the buzz from, from the alcohol. I felt all tingly and kind of dizzy and cheery, which is the best boozy feeling I've felt yet.So this was a great reintroduction. Malcolm paid the check and said he wanted to show me something. We stepped outside and then basically walked right into the Four Seasons. I was just going with the flow at that point and wasn't, well, and wasn't pretty surprised when he demonstrated his aforementioned love of pushing boundaries and breaking rules by stepping into a subsidiary staircase, leading up to a couple flights of stairs, and pointing out that it's surprising how few doors are locked.We ended up in a hallway belonging to the business portion of the hotel. It was dimly lit. We stopped in the middle of the hallway and I realized that this was totally one of his hilarious little tricks. Lo and behold, there he was standing just about an inch from me. [00:42:00] Yep. So of course we kissed and then we kissed again and then he pushed me against the wall and we kissed even more and we started kissing pretty deeply.I was surprised by how normal it felt. I recall saying something like, well, that's fine. There goes that five year hiatus. He totally pulled every cliche move in the book. Not just the leading me to a dark hallway thing, but also the slamming me against the wall thing, the unbuttoning my coat thing, the lifting me to the floor thing, the reaching up my dress thing.I kept laughing the whole time because it was so gamed, so scripted. Quote, I totally see what you're doing. Unquote. I said, not that. I stopped him. I really only drew the line when he started reaching for my nethers. But yeah, he definitely had a massive heart on and I'm not going to pretend that he didn't totally turn me on and I'm not going to pretend that I did not thoroughly enjoy making out with him.You had such a routine and I knew it, but I think that's really [00:43:00] interesting in that I think men who have routines. Typically hide them or try to hide them and you and you don't really needMalcolm Collins: to know women are not turned off By the fact that you're using a routine other women have commented on this.They're like, wow, it's really remarkable however, because it's a performance the way a lot of women approach sexual events and stuff like that, or relationship events is they want somebody who is experienced and who knows what they're doing and who's going to walk them through it. Who they can trust.Yes, who they can trust. Do not either be like overly a horndog that can't control themselves. You know, if somebody can get sex whenever they want and has this whole thing so methodically planned out, they're not the type of person who's going to lose their control or something because they're rejected, you know, and I'm sure you could tell that in the moment, right?Right. Like if you were not interested, I'd just be like, okay tomorrow it'll be a different girl. And, but Also knowing where you can go to do stuff like this is also really important.Simone Collins: [00:44:00] How long did you find that hallway in the four seasons?Malcolm Collins: Well, I usually try all the doors in any place that I visit.A lot of people are quite explorative of me. And I, and I found a place in downtown San Francisco where you Vacant that time of day, we get, it was like the office section of the building as she was mentioning, and this was at night. So there was no risk of anybody walking in on us. And yeah, that's a useful thing to do as well.I've mentioned in another episode, I had like the scanning for like sex locations when I was younger, that I would just see something or like sometimes as an adult walk by an area and be like, Ooh, that's a great place because I had had this like background processing of all environments. But yeah.Simone Collins: Yeah, let's see.Malcolm Collins: Oh, also, I'd point out before I go further, she had a boundary, she drew it, right? And I respected it. Yeah, totally. And that's really important. When somebody draws any sort of a boundary, that you're just like, okay, that's not something we're doing today.Simone Collins: Yeah, at no point did I feel unsafe, for sure.Which is notable because [00:45:00] this was, A lot for me. Let's see. Well, you don't want to kissMalcolm Collins: one guy, you know, when she's mentioning it's been five years since she kissed someone, she means she kissed somebody. Like once or a few times, five years ago, like not, not, it was one, one other person like this, the, she was not experienced at all.I wasSimone Collins: not experienced. I I continue when not laughing at him and making fun of his sexy face or stilted conversation turd toward his amusement at totally taking advantage of me and my amusement at him totally. Getting this far when nobody else could and his being a total dom and me being a total sub blah blah blah I wrote blah blah blah a lot.I am pleased to report that he is not entirely unsatisfied with my kissing I most certainly did ask for feedback and he said that he would think I were lying if I told him that I hadn't kissed someone in five years and that I must have been a total slut before I stopped kissing anyone. So hurrah for my slutty kissing skills, question mark.[00:46:00] AndMalcolm Collins: I really were a good kisser, even at the beginning. Thank you. Like I'm saying to this now, not trying to impress you or anything. I remember yeah, you, you, maybe we just have a lot of chemistry.Simone Collins: I think we have a lot of chemistry. I think as, as I've told you before, I. Cause I am asexual. I'm really not in, I've never been into anyone else.I'm just gay for Malcolm. I don't know what's, but whatever. Right. And when I told him I had really only kissed one guy and a friend with benefits at that before, and that I'd never been in a relationship before, plus was a virgin given the Intel, he seemed even more turned on. And well, All his cliche hilarious moves were obviously working on me too.I rather liked how he got on top of me, bit my neck, nibbled my ears, held my wrist to the floor. Yeah, this is really not appropriate for a state activity, but dreadful fun. Heck, I even sucked his fingers, which were, thanks to the Indian food, pretty tasty. Which is insane by the way, because I'm a complete germphobe.You don't understand, Simone.Malcolm Collins: [00:47:00] Floors. Floors.Simone Collins: Sucking fingers. Yeah, IMalcolm Collins: can't, I can't. Like her in our marriage, she. Panics about things that touch floors.Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: I could have touched aSimone Collins: doorknob to go to a restroom. I'm sure you did. I'm sure you, yeah, I, that, and I, it's, it, it is. But that is just how completely enamored.I, I was with you and I, I mean, yeah, it's telling, let's say in the midst of all this, he invited me to his place on Wednesday for my little ponies marathon. I just love how dated that is.Malcolm Collins: No, but also that it's very much like a. Do not front with overly masculine stuff. Front with stuff that shows how comfortable you areSimone Collins: with your masculinity.Malcolm Collins: These are two very different things. Traditional masculine things, when you front to girls with them, do not, they, they do the opposite. They make you look insecure with your [00:48:00] masculinity. I look at the things that somebody like. For example, Andrew Tate is fronting all the time. It makes him look like an incredibly insecure person with his masculinity.It does. Um, whereas, like, hey, let's go back to my place and watch My Little Pony together. That, especially in the age of bronies, which is when this was, that was high tier. When you can tell that, like, I'm not, like, a wimpy guy or whatever. That is high tier masculinity. Yeah. Because I'm showing that I don't I'm not afraid of being judged for liking something that falls outside of society's expectations of masculinity.Simone Collins: Yeah, that's so true. I parried a bit, but eventually, tentatively, said yes, and soon thereafter, I said I needed to leave, and we made our way down, kissing somewhat frequently along the way. He walked me to the BART station, and off I went. 1243 p. m. Jesus, it's 1243 p. m. Laptop off. I'm going to be so tired tomorrow.But this is one of those nights where one just has to [00:49:00] document. Memories are changeable. Capricious things. I want to record all of this to be accurate as possible. 1244 p. m. But oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. Did this just happen? I'm so I have to be really exceedingly careful because this guy can screw me over big time.That said, if I play my cards right, he can be the perfect person to sexually break me in. Not to mention connect me with a lot of interesting ideas and people. I just have to never get emotionally attached or find myself in any sort of dependent position, which is going to be especially difficult considering that we're going to be in a dumb sub relationship given the direction we're going in.Oh! But the plot thickens. She thickens. Dun, dun, dun, 12, 48 PM. Okay. Totally going to bed. S**t. That'sMalcolm Collins: for the first night. If people want more diary stuff, I, I love this becauseSimone Collins: I don't, I can't,Malcolm Collins: I don't think it's cringe at all. I think it shows an enormous amount of emotional intelligence, [00:50:00] agency.Simone Collins: It's just, it's Malcolm Collins.Fan blogging, but that's what youMalcolm Collins: found a guy who you wanted. Okay. And you got him to marry you. Yeah. AndSimone Collins: I mean, it's, it's even from our first date, the thing I was so scared of was getting attached to you because you were so impossibly perfect. And I feel so weird that I'm married to you now. It'sMalcolm Collins: like, I also love, this is a huge thing in year one.It's her. Fear of becoming attached. And so if we go through other diary entries, that'll just be a constant and recurring theme. It's similar. The problemSimone Collins: is he, he was way out of my league. You were super out of my league, Malcolm, like from a credential standpoint, from a background standpoint, from a look standpoint, there was just no way that I could compete.And then you were about to go to Stanford and find your wife. Like I knew that this was really stupid for me. [00:51:00]Malcolm Collins: You know, you say all of that, right? But I'm sure our listeners, when they hear all of these things, the way you talk about me, the way you think, the way you structure your dating, they're probably like, wow, they were really, really made for each other.Like they are a uniquely good fit for each other. yeah.Simone Collins: And when I write sociopath, by the way, I really mean that as a compliment. I always wanted to find someone who was like sociopathic or psychopathic, just because I associate those things with. Behaving logically and being ambitious and being more or lessMalcolm Collins: transparent.Would you say that I'm actually sociopathic?Simone Collins: You're really not sociopathic because you care way too much about people's feelings. You don't care what people think about you. But you, but you deeply care about potentially hurting people. You're like an anti sociopath because you will. kill yourself just thinking that perhaps you might have pointed someone in the wrong direction or said the wrong thing to them [00:52:00] and you like it viscerally hurts you after we meet with people in person.Malcolm Collins: It's very interesting that you pointed it out because I hadn't made this division. I Don't care at all. If people have negative judgements about me or No. Think ofSimone Collins: me, you don't care. No.Malcolm Collins: I do care if I accidentally inflict mental harm on anotherSimone Collins: person. Or, or just, you know, legit. Like if you give bad career advice to someone or, or if Yeah.You know, you said something and then you realized you might have been wrong about it, and then you just worry immensely. Well, anyway, youMalcolm Collins: worry about wronging people, another person, especially somebody who, who trusted me. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah, I, I just love this. Diary entry as this unfettered look in this, you know, innocent, younger, a guileless, as you said, gu innocent going into a situation where you actually win.You know, this is, you were approaching this like I was some sort of like unattainable, ultra hot guy. Mm-Hmm. who at you were asked was just gonna use you for sex for a while.Simone Collins: And I think that was probably your initial plan. [00:53:00] No,Malcolm Collins: it wasn't. I was, well, my initial plan is like, Oh, this person's fantastic.She'll follow me. Whatever I say, you know,Simone Collins: just your, your fangirl,Malcolm Collins: but then I realized how competent you were and how much I enjoyed talking to you and how much I enjoyed being around you. And I was like, wow, this, this person's amazing to spend time around. But I also think a lot of the personality that you exhibit now in this logical that may not have been present in these early videos.Was not, you know, it's, it's who you always have been. When you watch these or read these, read, read these early diary entries, you show an aspect of yourself that, Was always who you are today, but was something that you hid back then because you wanted to be normal. And I think what you mean when you say you wanted to be me, because you were always as methodical as me, you know, you talk about like my [00:54:00] aim thing, but were you not doing something similar with the dating competition and the dating?Scoring system and the, you know, we, we both were very similar and the meme stuff profile, you were doing all of this, but you didn't admit publicly that you were this ultra logical and methodicalSimone Collins: person. I didn't, I didn't write, like I referred to the fact that like, when, when you asked me for my Facebook profile to, to friend each other on, on Facebook, I.Flippantly responded that I had an FAQ guide and I actually did create this entire web page that was an FAQ guide that explained all of my weird eccentricities and was it completely transparent about this is what I am and this is what I'm all about.Malcolm Collins: Do we still have this? Where was this hosted?Simone Collins: You know, yeah, actually I think there are some bits of it in my diary that I could rescue.But I, I was, I was fairly openly weird, but I didn't know that I was allowed to have my own opinions and values. And that's the really big thing that you changed for [00:55:00] me was that you asked me what I believed and why, and you also gave me a license to have. Opinions that didn't, that didn't toe the line with mainstream progressive culture.That's actually aMalcolm Collins: really interesting thing. So the urban monoculture doesn't allow you to ask what you believe in. Why you just need to follow the norms of that culture and the way that you break it was sentient humans. And I'm, you know, I don't think all humans are fully sentient. You don't even think we're fully sentient.Come on. But those are humans who, when you prompt them to go, what do you actually think is good and why? Like, what are you actually optimizing for? And then you did that over a number of conversations. And then from there, you built a world and moral framework up from that sort of base first principles perspective of what's good.And that framework didn't overlap with what the urban monoculture said was good. And as the urban monoculture became increasingly fascist and totalitarian in how it controlled people's thoughts and [00:56:00] norms, it out, which wasn't like me trying to make you conservative or anything. It was me talking through with you, what do you actually believe?And if you believe those things then what, then what, then what and a lot of my beliefs about the world were influenced by yours, you know, my, Core philosophical framework changed pretty dramatically based on some of the ideas you've had that I think are very brilliant. For example, the humans aren't sentient.You can watch our episode on that. Like broadly like sentience, even the humans that have like a degree of it, it's mostly an illusion was from you and a really powerful frame shift for me because I used to think that that was the core thing of value in the universe. And now I, I, I think it's mostly an illusion.Based on your logic and and framework, and so you've done so much to make me a better person, and I just love these early diary entries because this, this person who so badly wanted something to work out like it, it did work out and beyond [00:57:00] your wildest, wildest, wildest expectations.Simone Collins: I like me a happy ending.Yeah. Yeah. Happy ending, right? Yeah. No, it's wild. Yeah. I'm, I'm glad that, yeah, this, we, we read this in a car drive on, on a way back from an event and it was just a fluke, but it's interesting to see how things have been ever since. So hope you guys like it. If you don't totally understand, cause this is incredibly cringe, but let us know what you think in the comments.And please. Don't forget to subscribe or give us a five star review on Apple podcasts. Cause we could really appreciate that.Malcolm Collins: And I'll try to add our discord link in the notes. When a couple of our fans have reached out and said like, started discord, I started a discord, blah, blah, blah. So like, we've got a standard discord for the channel now.I don't know how to like. Discord, like, it's not a platform that I'm super familiar with, but ISimone Collins: might eventually do Yeah, Microsoft Podcast started this for us, handed it off to us, and we're like, I don't know what to do, so IMalcolm Collins: might eventually do, like, live things there or something, we'll see, for like, you know, fans, and we'll see.Like, I don't know, I don't know [00:58:00] what to, I don't know why fans want this, but I guess when I see it doing interesting things, I will engage.Simone Collins: Yeah. But thank you all dealing with that. Hopefully not. If you found it excruciating, I find these things, I don't know. But I love you so much and I am really glad that I got the guy.I got the guy.Malcolm Collins: I'm so excited. It's so funny. We had a recent video. I don't know if it'll come out before or after this one, the anniversary video. I was watching the Film video from when I proposed to you and you said, I got him. I got him. That was something you said to yourself. You were so excited about that.Simone Collins: I definitely got the better end of this deal. I'm not gonna lie. So glad, glad I did. I love you, Malcolm. Love you too.Just pulling up the actual document that cut out all this stuff. So I won't be scrolling for a long time.Malcolm Collins: Oh, you did this already. I [00:59:00] really appreciate that. ISimone Collins: try. Can you give me a heads up, dude? That's that helps a lot, aMalcolm Collins: lot, actually. So I love your preparedness, Simone. You are really the most spectacular of wives.Simone Collins: You're so kind to me. Well, and you know, you are the dream husband that clearly I dreamt about. So, you know, you're amazing. So you start us off. Yeah. Get full access to Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm at basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In this passionate and eye-opening episode, Malcolm and Simone delve into the tragic history of how the progressive left has systematically co-opted and erased the identity of gay men within the LGBT movement. Drawing from their personal experiences and deep ties to the early gay community, they expose the hypocrisy and cultural imperialism that has led to the marginalization of the very group that fought hardest for acceptance and equality.Malcolm begins by recounting his formative years, during which his closest friends and mentors were predominantly gay men. He explains how the early LGBT community was primarily driven by gay men who were fighting against discrimination and societal rejection, with other groups like lesbians and transgender individuals being a much smaller part of the movement.The couple then discusses the original meaning behind the rainbow flag, which was designed to represent inclusivity and acceptance for all, rather than specific identities. They argue that the progressive left has since perverted this message by adding stripes and sections to elevate certain groups above others, thereby erasing the flag's original intent.Malcolm draws parallels between the betrayal of gay men and the co-opting of the black community's identity by the Democratic Party. He cites the shocking statistic that 52% of black men voted for Trump in the 2020 election, demonstrating the growing disillusionment with a party that claims to champion their interests while simultaneously policing their identity.Simone reflects on the resilience and resourcefulness of the gay community, expressing her confidence that they will continue to thrive and generate new cultural ideas despite the challenges they face. The couple concludes by noting the irony that flying the original rainbow flag now serves as a symbol of conservatism and dissent against the progressive establishment.Throughout the episode, Malcolm and Simone's passion and empathy for the gay community shine through as they condemn the cultural imperialism and bigotry that has led to the erasure of gay men's struggles and sacrifices. They call for a return to the true spirit of the LGBT movement, one that celebrates diversity and inclusivity without elevating any one group above another.Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] the rainbow flag was not about Like, it wasn't like each color represented some sexuality. It was rainbow because it was everyone under the rainbow Be comfortable with who you are. Yeah. Everyone is accepted. Is it not fitting that that acceptance has been systemicallySimone Collins: erased? That's, yeah, actually, when you put it that way, it's pretty wild.Malcolm Collins: As they took over this identity and begin to marginalize the actual individuals who fought to normalizeSimone Collins: all of this.Malcolm Collins: here's this flag for how everyone matters. And then they're like, but some people do matter more than others.Let's put some stripes on here for black and brown people. Let's put some stripes on here. Let's put a big section on here for the transSimone Collins: community, even for asexual.Malcolm Collins: It's fucked up. It is genuinely fucked up and disturbing the way that the progressives had basically stabbed the gay rights movement in the back and then carved up its corpse [00:01:00] and then wear it like some sort of macabre outfit. They've done the same to the black community. F*****g horrifying. And it's the same that we've seen with the gay community, they have taken their identity away from them and said, this identity supports us. And if you don't support us, then you no longer have ownership over your own identity,would you like to know more?Simone Collins: Malcolm, what do you want to talk about today? The gays.Malcolm Collins: Today we're talking about the gays. And what happened to their culture, which I think is really cruel and twisted. And so a lot of people, you know, they, they're watching our podcast and they may not realize how fully integrated both you and I were with early LGBT culture.When I say integrated, you know, I lived in a boarding school since I was 13 every year in high school, except for one year, my roommate was a gay guy and he was my best [00:02:00] friend. So this means throughout high school, the room I was sleeping in and my best friend who I hung out was a good 90 percent of all of my social interactions was a gay man.And I was in the GSA, and I was really, really, really engaged with gay culture. And then in college, again, my best friend and my academic father was a gay man. People don't know academic father.It's sort of like your, it's seen Andrews student mentor, student mentor. Right. And. For a good chunk of my formative years in life, the person who I spent the most time with, talked the most to, and engaged with, was a gay man. And so, a lot of people are like, Malcolm, you have a lot of gay mannerisms, why is that?And it was like, because I hung out with them all the time, in their friend group, and like, that was my core friend group growing up, was gay men. And a lot of men today, Now, gay culture was very different back [00:03:00] when I was growing up. They'll look at this and they'll be like, Oh, why would you do that? And I was like, You want to get a lot of hot female tail?Have all of your friends be hot gay men. Because women hit on them, they're not interested, and they pass them off fairly frequently. I'm not saying this is why they were my friends. I actually went to a high school reunion and I was interested in meeting with everyone.And I ended up only talking to this guy again. Because after I started meeting all the other people, I was like, Oh, this is why I only talk to you. You're the only, like, sentient, interesting person at the school. In my year, you know. But anyway.Simone Collins: Well, yeah, and of course, I grew up in, The San Francisco Bay area.So the only two parades I ever went to were the pride parade and the fourth of July parade in my small town, but the San Francisco pride parade, of course. And most of my friends had lesbian mothers. So I just thought people married like gender [00:04:00] had no influence over who you married, that I was equally likely to marry a woman as I was to marry a man.ItMalcolm Collins: just didn't. Yeah. Well, and when in growing up, everyone thought you were gay because theySimone Collins: would always say Simone will love whatever man or woman you end up with. And I wonder if they were kind of disappointed in you because you weren't a woman.Malcolm Collins: You know, you, yeah, well, we, yeah, right. And then, no, I think they, they kind of were because at one point you told another girl in your class that you wanted to know, no,Simone Collins: no, no, no.That's just, this is like in the second grade or so. And in public school, I announced at one point that I was going to marry my best friend who was a girl and we were going to live in an RV. And have a hundred cats and no one took away the problem that I was apparently going to be a very dangerous hoarder of cats as an adult and be homeless.Apparently. Oh, I'm sorry. Live hashtag band life. They were more concerned about the fact that I had apparently just come out of the closet [00:05:00] in the second grade. Hello.Malcolm Collins: I am glad the trans movement didn't exist when you were a kid. Cause yeah, because they probably should in a hot second. Yeah.Simone Collins: It's like, Oh, we got it.Well, because then at that point I, I didn't, I thought nothing of this. I said it at some point during the day. And then I come home and my mom's like, you know, Simone, you need to talk about this because apparently my teachers had called home and there was this whole meeting about that. I had just come out of the closet.I had no idea because I was like, I was in the second grade. It just happened to be that my best friend's parents were also lesbians. And that most of the people I knew were like in some kind of alternative relationship. I mean, my parents were poly before they got married. It just, anyway, so no, I, I, I never had lesbian tendency as I just, I've always been asexual, but gay for you.And I.Malcolm Collins: What she means by that is she's never found anyone else attractive.Simone Collins: Yeah, and then suddenly I met you and I was so, so [00:06:00] hot for you that despite being an insane germphobe, IMalcolm Collins: wouldn't have anyone else's game for just me. Like how common that is to, to only find one person arousing. I really,Simone Collins: I do wonder that in all of our research on sexuality, we haven't found.Good data on this, but let's go back to the gay community, to the gays,Malcolm Collins: to the gays. Well, so this is important because like my core network, as I said, with GSA, the theater kids, I was like an alt scene kid in the early days was those two core. Oh, and the, I don't know what to call it. It was like this community of Like thrift store and knitting girls, we grew up in our time period.Maybe not where you are, but on the East coast, it was definitely a thing. These are girls who wore everything from thrift stores and then would knit. It's like,Simone Collins: I had friends like that, but they weren't primarily lesbian.Malcolm Collins: No, I'm not saying they were lesbian. It was like a community and the community had a lot of lesbians in it.But anyway, or, or by girls or whatever the early gay community and the [00:07:00] early LGBT community differentiated. So we're going before our time. I'm going back to the eighties here. It differentiated from mainstream society because They were discriminated and this happens to any group. If you're discriminated, but not like killed, right?In high numbers, it's not that they weren't killed. Some people did get killed for their sexuality at that time period. You, you hide it from mainstream society and then you socialize separately. Well, that leads to a different culture forming because you are isolated from the mainstream cultural network.You need to identify how you are different from that cultural network. And then status is to some extent. Like extracted when you meet someone you've never met, but it's in the wider cultural network by how much you other yourself from the perspective of mainstream society in terms of that cultural networks, values and norms.This is where you got the gay accent. This is where you got. And then gays begin to adopt the cultures that a lot of them were coming from [00:08:00] or where they would get a lot of early sex from. So in gay men, this became biker culture. Which became very important to the gay male aesthetic. And then to gay women, this became nones, actually a lot of people don't know this, but after the second Vatican council, when the nunneries were moved close to the cities, gay men also disproportionately joined the Catholic priesthood.But so did gay women. This is sort of the Catholic cultural solution for same gender relation, I think it was 52 percent of. of Catholic priests are same sex attracted in one study done. And it's, and so the ones who were more gay than Catholic, let's put it that way they just happened to be born Catholic and this is what they thought they were supposed to do if they were same sex attracted they went into these movements.And then in, in, in nunneries, these began to really influence lesbian culture during this period. Which you still see in some lesbian aesthetics and common lesbian fetishes. And, and you see this within the gay movement as well. Like, this is why you get [00:09:00] something like Road Warrior, which borrowed a lot from gay culture, which borrowed the original Road Warrior, which borrowed a lot from biker culture.The upper. we kill. We kill, kill them! Kill them! Kill them! KillMalcolm Collins: and you definitely see this if you're watching the original Road Warrior. This definitely came out of gay cultural networks. And then you had some trans people, but trans people were basically non existent back then. You had cross dressers, which are different from trans people. The majority of cross dressers are cis gendered straight males, actually.These are men who like to cross dress recreationally. And transgender people generally found themselves in these networks, and you had a few transgender people in the outliers, but they were incredibly rare if you're talking about the formation of early gay culture. Gay women were the sort of [00:10:00] next most rare group just the proportion of women who are same sex attracted to only females, when contrasted with the proportion of men who are same sex attracted to only males it's like ten men for every woman.This is just like a biological fact. If you look at the statistics, it is much more common for women to be bisexual or to be interested or aroused by both male and female body shapes in a historic context where same sex attracted is heavily discriminated against. There just wasn't a reason to join these cultures if you were a bisexual woman because of the cost to you.So a lot of these women just presented a straight where men are usually attracted to only either men or. And therefore for them to get any sort of arousal pattern, they would need to go as men, which led to a lot more men being present in these communities in the early days. So in the early LGBT community, I'd say that there were probably, you know, due to the rounding error of trans individuals and [00:11:00] bisexual women who appeared in these movements probably 10 gay men for every one other person in the movement.Simone Collins: Meaning this is a very, very, very big and significant proportion of theMalcolm Collins: community. This is a very big, significant portion of the community. So when the rainbow flag was invented, when people were dying, when people were fighting. Well, they called itSimone Collins: the gay pride flag. They didn't call it the LGBT flag.They called it the gay pride. It was a gay pride flag. It was a gay pride flag. And it was the gay pride parade also.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, this was about gay men, and everyone else was sort of along for the ride because they had the similarity They were a numerical minority. Yeah, and well, and they had the similarity. The only thing they had in common, like their sexualities, I don't think transness is particularly related to gayness or lesbians I think that they just had the similarity that they were rejected from mainstream society due to something that was abnormal about their gender pattern in the [00:12:00] same way that You know, if you, if you look historically, right, they would have called trans people gay and stuff like that, right?Like to define your group by the people who hate you seems really weird to me, but this is just culturally, they were all sort of in the same bucket for this reason. Well, youSimone Collins: could, Malcolm, think of it this way. The pronatalist movement is comprised of many very different groups, but we're aligned in our interest in having cultural freedom.And you could argue perhaps that's what brought these groups together is they wanted to be aligned in their sexual freedom.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. To do what they wanted to, which is, is not where the movement has gone, but we'll talk about that in a second. So gay men fought and died predominantly to get this movement accepted.And it is twisted that now the LGBT flag, whatever it's become, which is over time erased gay men from it has, they vote 45%, people may [00:13:00] not know this, in the last election cycle, gay men voted 45 percent for Trump. This That blewSimone Collins: my mind, by the way. BecauseMalcolm Collins: identity and flag that so many of them fought and died for is being used to represent ultra progressive culture to a complete abandon for the effect it's having on these actual communities.Imagine, imagine if you strongly identified with something like, you know, Catholicism or whatever, right? And there was a group of absolute, like, progressive extremist fascist, racist, because most ultra progressives are fascist and racist. Of course, they define racism. They say it's not racism if you're targeting white people.It's not fascism if you're targeting people who aren't progressive. You know, this is genuinely the way that, of course, when, when, when you approach a Nazi and you're like the things you're doing to Jews, are really dehumanizing. Oh, don't worry. They're not humans. This is always what fascist, racist [00:14:00] groups do have taken over their movement.And their identity along with that movement, right, like this larger gay identity that they did so much to normalize, the progressives did nothing, nothing to normalize this. They left this group in the cold. The first presidential candidate who, when elected, publicly supported gay individuals and gay marriage.was Trump. Obama was against gay marriage when he was first elected. I want to be absolutely clear about that. The progressives did not a f*****g thing for this community. They have always treated them as an in their pocket voter, and it makes absolute sense that the gay men who actually had to suffer for the rise of this community are f*****g livid with where things have been taken.And people who [00:15:00] knew these individuals back in the day, back when the community was rioting, would have just as much anger about not just taking over this identity, but progressively erasing them from their Own flag. What the are you?It's worse than that. Glad has now.. One of the primary gay rights organizations. They have a book of like approved and disapproved words or language, which is so Orwellian. But anyway, , in their latest iteration, the word homosexual is now considered an offensive term. Which is hilarious because they use terms like queer all the time, which was originally. , designed as. Primarily a pejorative term, whereas homosexual with a descriptive term for gay men. But they have erased the only word for gay men.they can say, oh, well you can call them gay now or gay men now, but they've literally erased.Being able to say that males are gay exclusively, or describe them as a specific [00:16:00] demographic.Malcolm Collins: Yeah,Simone Collins: it's, it's because we, we have gay friends who have lived long enough to not have only grown up with woke, you know, who are, who are older than us and some are conservative now.Yes. 100%. And they see how society has gone off the rails, but then there are others who are still staunchly progressive. And I wonder if it's just that they're not really looking into things. Part of me thinks that I think a lot of the people who are Progressive and living in the Bay Area. You and I were talking about this earlier.I don't think, I think the issue is that they just don't know what's going on. Well, they don't realizeMalcolm Collins: what, no, no, Simone, 45 percent of gay men voted for Trump. Okay. They know largely the cultural knows there's a few brainwashed people, but gay men have always been some of the forced to question cultural norms.Yeah. That is why they produce art at a higher rate. And they just do like across societies.Simone Collins: 45 percent of gay men voted for Trump. Not 90%. What's going on with that?Malcolm Collins: that a lot aren't brainwashed, that [00:17:00] a lot aren't maybe even falsely identifying as gay men. No, this is, you know, some sort of status thing was in, come on, Simone, be realistic.You know, there, there, there's a lot of men who are like, well, I'm gay because I'm like demisexual. And that's a form of, you know, gender queer, which is within the gay label, you know, be realistic here. But I also want to point out here. What they did to the flag because this has always like been so fucked up.WhichusedSimone Collins: to be called just the gay prideMalcolm Collins: flag. First, yeah, this was the gay pride flag. And then the rainbow flag was not about Like, it wasn't like each color represented some sexuality. It was rainbow because it was everyone under the rainbow. All the colors. It was about everyone. The individual colors, not representing anything specific, was about representing everyone.Everyone. And yes, a few groups later tried to identify, Oh, this color means this and this color means this. But [00:18:00] historically, when it was created, no, that's not what it was about. It was about total inclusivity.To add some clarification here. The colors. While they do not represent sexualities. They do represent things specifically pink mint, sex Redmond, life, orange mint, healing, yellow mint, sunlight, green mint nature, turquoise mint, magic slash art. Indigo. I mint, serenity and violet mint spirit. , the pink Stripe was taken out later because it was difficult to source of the fabric from it. But yeah.And they, they definitely were not representative.Is that like one of these with gay people or something like that, the entire point of the flag was inclusivity. And that is what progressives are erasing.Simone Collins: Yeah, it was about freed sexual You, you having the ability to express whatever sexual identity you have and, and, I mean, gayness was the majority of it.So, obviously, They calledMalcolm Collins: it the gay primitive, but the point is, is it [00:19:00] was, be comfortable with who you are. Yeah. Everyone is accepted. Is it not fitting that that acceptance has been systemicallySimone Collins: erased? That's, yeah, actually, when you put it that way, it's pretty wild.Malcolm Collins: As they took over this identity and begin to marginalize the actual individuals who fought to normalizeSimone Collins: all of this.Well, but more than that, that they took away that this is for everyone and they made it into, this is for these specific groups. Some peopleMalcolm Collins: matter more than others. It's, it's so f*****g animal farm. It's like somebody came up. And they're like, here's this flag for how everyone matters. And then they're like, but some people do matter more than others.Let's put some stripes on here for black and brown people. Let's put some stripes on here. Let's put a big section on here for the transSimone Collins: community, even for asexual. And I mean, I, I love it, right? I mean, I mean, you're asexual at least, but. I, I also, who is asexual? You know, this is not a large portion of the population.Why, why is that [00:20:00] there? Why is that there? AndMalcolm Collins: as an asexual person, I would say that you are like, why are we erasing inclusivity? A flag dedicated to inclusivity was a carve out. Yeah. It's fucked up. It is genuinely fucked up and disturbing the way that the progressives had basically stabbed the gay rights movement in the back and then carved up its corpse and then wear it like some sort of macabre outfit.Ooh, look at me. I'm a minority because I destroyed a minority community. They fought for all of this. They've done the same to the black community. F*****g horrifying. It,Simone Collins: when it makes the flag also now so much less inclusive because it sort of means that all these other orientations and kinks can no longer count under it.Cause they're not listed anymore. Man. Yeah. Hadn't thought about it that way.Malcolm Collins: So also the same with black menthe people who. In a large part, [00:21:00] modern black culture, I hate to say it, have been erased. Those men, if you say, Oh, I vote for Trump.Remember Biden, if you don't vote for, for me, you ain't black. The policing of the black identity card by the Democrats. F*****g disgusting. And it's the same that we've seen with the gay community, they have taken their community, their identity away from them and said, this identity supports us. And if you don't support us, then you no longer have ownership over your own identity, over your own struggles.I mean, imagine whether you're a gay man or a black man growing up. Right? Undergoing all of this discrimination, and now being told, oh, well none of that mattered because you don't really have ownership over any of that. The totalitarianist, the imperialism, the fascism of the democrat mind is disgusting to me.And as you can tell, there's people with a ton of black friends, a ton of gay friends, like [00:22:00] this is actually repugnant, pugnant what's happened. Yeah,Simone Collins: it's, it's pretty wild. I mean, to a certain extent. I kind of get the feeling that a lot of gay communities just don't, they don't need it because they're quite fine on their own.Thank you very much. AndMalcolm Collins: they don't need it. Sorry. It doesn't matter what they need or what they don't mean. Imagine somebody took a part of your identity, something that was core toSimone Collins: you. Well, and then, yeah, I guess started selling it to other people. That's where it gets, it's good.Malcolm Collins: And they started using it to represent their own goodness.They're like, look at how great I am. Okay. Like imagineSimone Collins: it's, yeah, it's like using your credit report. To apply for credit or something using your reputation to try to move things forward or cop like plagiarizing your college essayMalcolm Collins: and submitting it so much worse than that. It's like a group, right? That did something super racist or terrible.I E [00:23:00] like, let's take a group that like, was known for like brutalizing native American communities, keeping them in camps, everything like that. And then. Arguing to everyone that they were such a good person as such good people because of how many gays they had converted to, not gays how many Native Americans they had helped find Jesus.And that they're really the number one champions of the Native American community because all of these Native Americans that helped find Jesus and all of them that hadn't found or identified with their culture were evil. And then they became the major voice of Native American quote unquote rights in society.And then they begin to any Native American that was like, well, we don't agree with your whole Jesus thing. They're like, well, I guess you're not really human and you're definitely not Native American. Do you understand how much that would like mess up someone to be like a young person growing up and seeing that, to see that degree of cultural imperialism and Bigotry.And I think that this is also [00:24:00] a lot of these dumb, pathetic conservative men these days who don't have any knowledge of history think that they need to be like anti gay or anti black to be conservative. And I see this today. It's really loud people online. They're, they're not actually part of the conservative movement.Have we pointed out until Obama was elected president, your average white Democrat voter was less likely to say they would vote for him. a black person present than your average white conservative. Even till today, the difference in racism between those two parties is like two to three percent. There is no racist conservative base.The, the amount of people who try to front racism or homophobia as core to their conservative identity and just end up looking foolish. Because historically, this is not part of the conservative movement in modern times. This is not a conservative base. They are just little 4chan kids looking for acceptance.And a lot of 4chan is good. What I mean by this is little people who are not 4chan contributors, but just watch other people post there and try to decide [00:25:00] how they would fit in, in this World framework that doesn't actually exist and then go to other platforms where they do feel safe because they're too scared to post on like the real generator of online culture and then post racist s**t on YouTube or homophobic s**t on YouTube and they don't realize that no the majority of conservatives don't agree with them The the and I'm talking real Extremist conservatives don't agree with them.They think that they're pathetic. And that in truth, our movement is one of diversity. . It is. And I think in the next election cycle, the majority of gay males. It is the peopleSimone Collins: who actually the stats previously showed. A little bit less than half, but you think it's basically just gotten worse.Just like we've seen with many Latin American groups that are just seeing themselves being completely left behind by the democratic party and policies and behavior. Right. So you just think it's just a bigger proportion now, probably the majority. [00:26:00] Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Hmm. I do think it'll be the majority. And if it's not this election cycle, it'll be the next one.Because these are the groups who understand oppression. Yeah, you know these are the people who fought for all of these rights to have everything they fought and died for Co opted by a movement that they one don't agree with and is fundamentally against their value set Is horrifying.Sorry, I might be getting a little emotional in this, but that's because these are communities that I care about and I can't imagine what it must feel like to be a member of one of these communities, especially when who sacrificed so much, and then to have everything that you fought for. Co-opted by people.who left you to fight alone until they could use your identity to elevate their own social status and move forward this memetic virus that is destroying our society and that needs to be [00:27:00] quarantined and erased. You know, Sweet Baby Inc. I've been watching more stuff about them recently. And and so gamer gate to thing and they're like, Oh, you know, we're just trying to diversify games and by diversify games, they mean make them ultra progressive, right?And it is really homogenizing is a racist and it doesn't matter the color of your skin if you're, you know, I was watching clownfish TV and they're talking about one of the most famous comic artists these days. Any comic artists who's really against wokeness as a black guy, they don't care. They don't care because you lose their, it's not actually about race to them.In fact, it's almost the antithesis. Like they are the epitome of racism in our society and homophobia in our society, given the way that they have brutalized these communities, depressing their, their history and identity. But I'm wondering if you had any closing thoughts here, Simone.Simone Collins: What I find to be encouraging is that I think that these communities are uniquely resilient.[00:28:00]There's a reason why the progressive. Left has really tried to take them over because they had created something of immense power and goodness. And I think now that they're kind of back to a new zone without necessarily the same home that they'd already created, that their home has been appropriated and taken away from them in terms of advocacy, et cetera.I still have every confidence that they're going to be just fine because they're smart, they're resourceful. And these movements did get big under their watch. Now they're being destroyed, of course. But they'll create new subcultures, new movements, and they're going to be just fine because honestly, these are incredibly resilient groups of people.They're incredibly smart and resourceful, and they've only made it this far and they've only normalized the Different from historical societal sexual preferences because they've been that good. So [00:29:00] I don't think it's hopeless. I think it's incredibly gross what has happened and I see your disgust and totally identify with it.But I'm also always of the mindset that. The, the fit shall win and they are the fit, they shall win. Well, I mean, AMalcolm Collins: men still are the primary generators of new cultural ideas in our society. The rest of the LGBT movement has never really generated, you know, durable new cultural ideas. And by this I mean new.And so as these new people of the now dissident class, which is considered the intellectually dissident class, which is now conservative I think the generative gay men will continue, as you say, to, to play this major role in society. Same with, with black men, right? Like who's the number one conservative after Trump, Kanye, right?Like in terms of public mindshare, even, even somehow more horrible than Trump. I'm sure he's not considered black by progressives. But the other thing I wanted to note is that in many ways, this stealing of their [00:30:00] identity and then transforming it, the reconstruction of the pride flag is A gift to the real gay community, the old gay community, and that now, and we were saying this, you know, we were at the the last Log Cabin Republicans meeting at Mar a Lago.It's actually the first time we saw Trump and this group the joke I kept saying is I love that we can now fly the rainbow pride flag and be seen as conservative and dissident. When before You mean the original gay pride Yeah. Yeah. Before if you, it was like signaling that you're a progressive.Now you fly the original flag and you're signaling that you support the real.Simone Collins: Yeah. It's like practically flying a Trump flag or a let's go Brandon flag. Edgy, edgy. So weird. Yeah, but again, they're, they're going to be fine because, you know, the best win in the end. And I think gay culture is [00:31:00] incredible and resilient and it always has been.So, you know, at least we're starting from a better starting point where, you know, people aren't being, at least in our culture, killed or jailed or hormonally sterilized. Once they're found to be.Malcolm Collins: Whoa. People in our culture aren't being hormonally sterilized which are found to beSimone Collins: There's more les lesbiansMalcolm Collins: these days.How many young gay men do you think have been hormonally sterilized who were confused about their gender identity?Simone Collins: Wow. Okay. Okay, well, they're not being killed or jailed so, yeah, mm hmm. Yeah. Okay. It's going to be fine. It's going to be fine. It's going to be fine. It's going to be fine. I love you.Malcolm Collins: Oh, by the way, one of my favorite things recently is there is this you know, thing on the trans people who had been killed this last year for trans awareness day.And it turned out that the, the murder rate was lower than the general population.So just to run the numbers [00:32:00] on that, here is a report complaining that more than 300 trans people killed in 2023. , and if you look in the United States, they had 31 were killed in the U S so you can say what percent of the us population is trans. It's about 1% these days. Which means there's about 3 million trans people in the United States. And so if you say, okay, 31 people murdered in a 3 million population. That brings the murder rate. Two.0.00001 in the trans community, um, versus the general population, which should be 0.0063. So it's literally orders of magnitude lower than the general population.Malcolm Collins: And almost none of them were killed for being trans. It was all like they had robbed from someone. They'dSimone Collins: been mugged or something.Malcolm Collins: No, no, no. It was mostly s**t they had done to other people. Yeah. Oh no. Oh no, no, no.Simone Collins: Bad luck.Bad luck. They should not have published LoveMalcolm Collins: you to death Simone. I love you too. [00:33:00]Simone Collins: Oh God, I didn't know that. That's crazy.Malcolm Collins: Oh. Get full access to Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm at basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In this heartwarming and personal episode, Malcolm and Simone celebrate their 7th anniversary by revisiting Malcolm's annual Facebook posts professing his love and admiration for his wife. Despite Simone's usual rule against public gushing, she allows Malcolm to share these touching tributes on their special day.Malcolm reads aloud his posts from years past, describing Simone's superhuman work ethic, emotional self-control, methodical approach to life, and unwavering dedication to their shared goals. He marvels at her ability to continuously improve herself and push him to be a better person, even going so far as to jokingly suggest she should become the "iron-fisted empress of a world-spanning empire."Simone reacts to each post with a mix of embarrassment and gratitude, emphasizing the importance of complementary skill sets in a successful relationship. She shares her own admiration for Malcolm's visionary thinking, creativity, and ability to make her childhood dreams come true.The couple also delves into the story of their engagement, with Malcolm revealing the challenges of hiding the ring and surprising Simone, who remained blissfully unaware of his plans. They remind viewers of the importance of proposing privately before any public gestures to avoid emotional blackmail.Throughout the episode, Malcolm and Simone reflect on the depth of their connection, their unwavering commitment to each other, and the joy they find in their partnership. They even discuss hypothetical scenarios of remarriage in the event of one's untimely death, showcasing their pragmatic approach to love and family.Join Malcolm and Simone as they celebrate their extraordinary bond, share personal anecdotes, and offer insights into building a lasting, supportive, and deeply fulfilling relationship.Simone Collins: [00:00:00] I'm not done. Oh God, don't do this toMalcolm Collins: me. Which means I have an excuse to talk about how amazing she is. Oh boy. She has a strict rule against me gushing about her online under normal circumstances. I genuinely believe my wife is a penultimate manifestation of the human condition.It is simply impossible for her to be better than she already is. She works without expectation of praise or reward. So long as it benefits our longterm goals. After all these years, she is still genuinely surprised when I voiced my appreciation for her contributions. The other day, I wanted to get her a treat so she could relax for half an hour, and she requested a pedicure, which I later learned she requested so she could keep typing.Will you marry me?Cool. I got you!. [00:01:00] One.I'm gonna marry you! And I'm gonna have a child, I'm gonna love having you!Would you like to know more?Simone Collins: Can I start with a like public service announcement slash rant?Yes. Okay. I've frequently heard about drama in couples resulting from someone forgetting someone else's birthday or the couple's anniversary or some important date when this, like one of the partners expected to be celebrated or given a gift or something of that sort. And the other partner, typically because they had much better things to do, or just honestly, they don't personally value that, you know, just didn't, didn't do the thing.And I always found that to be really odd because if you want something, then you have to do it, that's your responsibility. So either partners have to say, okay, here's a really important thing. You ha I expect you to throw me a surprise party. Like, okay. It takes the romance out of it, whatever. Right.But like, If that's what you want, you need to fricking communicate it. [00:02:00] You know what I mean? Obviously there are some spouses who just like doing stuff like that and they may do it and it all works out and you don't have to ask them, but like, if this is not natural to a partner, you have to do it. And I love the way we do it.Can I describe how we do? Okay. We well, okay. I, I do all the logistics in the family. So I. Just keep everything in my calendar and I will just tell Malcolm and typically we won't do anything like our anniversary just was on Monday two days ago and I was just like, Oh, it's, it's our anniversary today.And we talked about it a little bit, but we didn't get each other gifts or cards or flowers or anything because we've better s**t to do. We're very busy. We're trying to save the worldMalcolm Collins: here. People there's chasing us. We don't have time for flowers this morning. You were commenting, we went to Trader Joe's and you were like, why are there always people buying flowers at Trader Joe's?Like who can afford this romanticSimone Collins: expense? Yeah. And every time we go to Trader Joe's, someone is buying flowers and I do not get it. I mean, obviously there's a bouquet of flowers behind me, but I [00:03:00] picked that with the kids out in our yard because you, romantically Malcolm planted flowers. You did the whole thing of don't catch a fish for a man, teach 'em to fish, and you just plantedMalcolm Collins: flowers.I planted daffodils all over our property. I got what, like a giant sack of them, like I was like 50 or something. Mm-Hmm. . So know I've been free flowers. There are Zs everywhere, all over the place.Simone Collins: So, but what we do is, is I, for major holidays birthdays and. Or the things like Christmas or future day I will just, I create a budget and I have everyone pays exactly the same amount and I buy the gifts.So when your birthday rolls around, I buy you gifts. And then when my birthday rolls around, I buy myself gifts from you, which you pay for from your discretionary income, but in exactly the same monetary amount as your gifts. So no one ever spends more than anyone else. The same goes for our children.Each child Gets gifts in exactly the same monetary amount. You and I get Christmas gifts and exactly the same monetary amount. And we budget for various people in [00:04:00] our lives. So we want to send gifts to, we have a budget for that every month and that's it. And, and it's like, I handle it because I'm the one who kind of enjoys that more and watches the calendar more and that's fine.And it actually is really fun because then you also seem to really enjoy seeing what you got me because it's a surprise. And I really like what I got me because I know I like it. So everyone wins. And I'm just saying, I love theMalcolm Collins: people who like follow the prenatalist movement. And they're like, I am so afraid of you guys breaking up because it would be such a damaging thing to the movement.Some people have talked to me about this and it's, it's actually, you know, I understand the fear. I see a lot of our friend group is, is going through divorces and stuff like that these days. And I say this all with the caveat that I'm about to undertake the one thing I'm not allowed to do in our marriage.I'm pretty much allowed to do whatever I want, but only on anniversaries do I really get an excuse to unequivocally praise my wife. Oh, ISimone Collins: thought you were gonna say you're allowed to do everything you want, except you're not allowed to get married. Fat per our fat class.Malcolm Collins: Oh, well, that's, that's [00:05:00] true. But I don't wantSimone Collins: to be like, OhMalcolm Collins: my God, I want to do.And so, you know, Facebook recommends old posts and recently it's been recommending my one day a year when I'm allowed to praise my wife on our anniversary. Of, of, of, you know, how long have we been together now? 12 years, 12 years. One day a year when I'm left to praise my wife, all these gushy posts I've posted about her.I am going to read them to you and she is going to comment on them. And you are going to see, I remember we got one comment that was like, Malcolm, I'm really concerned that you are being too Nice to Simone these days and, and praising her too much. And she's not praising you asSimone Collins: much. And this is now going to make the problem get so out of hand because that is not.Okay. I heard actually that love languages were widely denounced and largely don't actually make sense that everyone just likes expressions of love equally. And it doesn't matter. My love language is not. [00:06:00] Saying, I love you. It's not buying gifts. It is through doing work for you that is meaningful and making your life materially easier.And then when people watch our podcast, they don't see everything that I do. So they think that I'm this heartless refrigerator mom. Oh, just like your mom did. Who's incapable of love.Malcolm Collins: My mom said that, well, Simone being autistic is incapable of love, but I'm sure you can find it through your kids. And I'm like, I don't think that's how autism works, but okay.Simone Collins: Well, apparently YouTube thinks that too, though. YouTube thinks I, you know, and I'm just not good at it.Malcolm Collins: Start with something that you say to me, because it's not just like being the perfect woman. It is that you make me a better man and you are always pushing me towards who I want to be. So this is a WhatsApp conversation I'm going to put on the screen that I screenshotted.Go back to the polo club and network. Seriously, no more whining. And I say, the Wi Fi need. Then Simone says, I love you, and I want the world for you. [00:07:00] So I'm not gonna let stupid s**t stop you, including your own stupid human emotions, for which I have zero respect. I respect you, your intellect, Your vision and your potential, not your emotions.I love you so much. Now go network, make an impression on high potential people, and for the love of God, also have some fun.Simone Collins: This is me. Now people are really going to think I'm the worst wife ever. No, that is anMalcolm Collins: amazing, every guy wants that voice in their head. They are stressing out at a networking event or something like that, and everyone there is a bigger deal than them, or you know, somebody challenges them or insults them and they want to like, you, you are the voice in every man's head that he needs.I love and respect you, but I don't love and respect your weak emotions. Get in there and do your s**t.Simone Collins: I actually feel like that's a more traditional and common wife view [00:08:00] than you might expect.Malcolm Collins: Well, here's something that you said about me because you were afraid that I wouldn't say anything that you had said to me.Aw. Do you want me to read a post you wrote about me here? Okay, yes. You know that scene in the gladiator in which Maximus finally quote unquote comes home? If you know, he actually died to hisSimone Collins: wife. Spoiler alert. Hello. AnyoneMalcolm Collins: who hasn't seen the gladiator like screw you. It's an amazing movie. You deserve toSimone Collins: have it spoiled because you haven't seen it.You b******s.Malcolm Collins: To his wife and child in the countryside. Malcolm Collins makes every day feel like that scene. I can't understand how Malcolm succeeds in making family life so idyllic, while also inspiring us to reach so high and dream so big. He is willing to fight the most daunting battles, while simultaneously demonstrating the capacity to fully enjoy perfect, simple moments.I could not dream of a better father for my children. Happy Father's Day, Malcolm.Simone Collins: That is totally how I feel. And it's, I mean, it's such [00:09:00] a romantic feeling, but at the same time, it's also a Terrifying. I think I might have died feeling because it'sMalcolm Collins: yeah, you included a scene of like me playing in our field with the kids because you know, we live next to a state park.And so it's just like this endless field and the kids are all running in it.YouSimone Collins: Yeah, it's well, I mean, come on, cut to the gladiator scene hand over the wheat. You know? Yeah. Just, oh, have I been brutal killed because I thinkMalcolm Collins: maybe, yeah.Watching the scene. Again, really highlights for me how sort of sick, both the progressive idea that I'm not going to have kids and I'm going to stop the great game of civilization because my [00:10:00] life is marginally harder than the life of my parents. When you consider how brutally hard. People lived in the past and what their conception of heaven was. And on top of that. This idea of the progressive heaven, where like you get as much pleasure as you want whenever you want it. When historically that would have been seen as. Obviously not the goal, heaven was too. Create a life with a family on a farm, and they will never experience these emotions and that in many ways they have created their own hell. Which they live in every day on earth. People who live for pleasure can never find peace.Malcolm Collins: Okay. So here's a piece from me that I wrote. This one. Yeah. This was around Christmastime, one of the years a while back.My wife, Simone, found a stocking from when I was a kid. Now, every morning when we wake up, she throws a big fit about how Blitzen has broken into our house and hid more presents in it for me, [00:11:00] often complaining that we need to move to a safer neighborhood. Usually, the gift is some sort of unique specialty food from another country that only I would like.This last morning, it was ghost peppered flavored chips. A tier wifing. I really need to up my husband game with some equally, in some equally creative way, but how?Simone Collins: But isn't that more of a sweet thing about your mom? Because your mom bought that stocking in the first place, saved it, and then gave it to you.No! You, this is why you're such aMalcolm Collins: good wife! You don't even take credit for how amazingSimone Collins: you are! But, and then she introduced to me, through her amazing Christmas traditions, which, You know, I, we didn't do this in my household, the, the Christmas pantheon where gifts were not just given from Santa, but from Frosty the snowman and the various I was going to say unicorns, Santa's various reindeer.And that all came from her. So that's your mom. You can't even takeMalcolm Collins: credit. I love it. This is why you're so amazing. Okay. I'll read another one. This one is after the autism [00:12:00] diagnosis. After learning more about my wife's recent autism diagnosis, I've realized common traits associated with autism in women are things that any nerdy guy would want in a wife, less likely to get emotional, likes a rigid routine, is not interested in indulgent socializing, isn't suspicious of others intentions, exhibits a quote unquote overly logical approach to life, has a closer than normal attachment to closest friends.their partner, has an intense focus on weird, interesting topics, etc. I wrote a book on relationships and now it seems like part of my secret to having a satisfying relationship without drama was being married to an autistic woman. Also, what Simone didn't share in the post In the below post, this was the post where you talk about your diagnosis.During the diagnosis, they gave her an IQ test that she took at the end of the day on a Friday while feeding and changing an infant, so hardly ideal conditions, and scored [00:13:00] higher than 99. 7 percent of the population. Simone, you are like, shockingly smart.Simone Collins: I think you know very well from living with me on a day to day basis.It's true. I mean, remember last night where I, insisted that there were waffles in the freezer and they were not because I left them on the table because my brain doesn't work. But yeah, I, I'm so glad that you are, not many people can deal with autistic partners and many people complain bitterly about autistic partners.And you are the first person I've met actually, who frames having an autistic partner As being a benefit, everyone elseMalcolm Collins: should only source autistic partners. We need to make all our daughters autistic. Cause that is the type of woman that men want these days. I'll tell you what high quality men,Simone Collins: actually is, is truly where I hear people complain about autistic partners is typically women because they feel, I [00:14:00] don't know like they're not emotionally validated enough or something of that sort.But then when I, I I've been watching for the first time to wind down And failed to sleep each night, the original Pride and Prejudice TV show. And I I've read the books too, and I've seen other movies, but I didn't realize until watching it now, a lot of us watching Batman, that The lead romantic male in this book and in these shows and movies is Mr.Darcy. He's almost certainly autistic. He is a very socially awkward. He is very systematic about what he does. Like he just shows all sorts of weird autistic traits. And. I think women may be more into autistic guys than they want to admit, but there's this feeling of social license to instead use a spouse's known or expected autism as a source of complaint.And you are so amazing and that you can see people's. [00:15:00] What one, what one group will see as a shortcoming, you will see it as an amazing asset and something that you really, really love. And I think that's amazing about you. It's one thing, one thing that'sMalcolm Collins: my brother, we did one day where we went around and listed the things that we appreciate about other family members that were unique about them.And he's like, Malcolm somehow you always end up loving wherever you are, whatever choices you've made in life. Yeah,Simone Collins: wherever you are is the best place that's ever been. When we were in Peru, you, you insisted that Peru is the best. Lima is the best city ever in terms of the combination of cost of living plus the quality of what you've got with the money you spent and the food scene and the environment.And then you move here to Pennsylvania. You know what though? You never thought that FloridaMalcolm Collins: was okay. No, Florida was always garbage. I know when I'm living in a trash pile. No I thought Dallas was fine.Simone Collins: Dingleberry. Yeah. Poor, poor Florida.Malcolm Collins: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. [00:16:00] Okay. Now I'm actually here going to go one that I just found when I was searching through our Facebook history that I love so much that people believe this.So I'm going to put a picture on screen and people need some context for this. Oh, this is a, a thing that we had to do where we had to weigh our child.Simone Collins: No, no, no. I think it had more to do with his total mass or something. I can't remember. Whatever.Malcolm Collins: But I, I realized that it looked like it could be like a freezing pot.Okay. So I go, you know what? I'm going to make a face post Facebook post. Implying that and a lot of people actually believed we were doing this Infant not like like a newborn kid not like like an embryo or something. OkaySimone Collins: Actually, I think it was fat content because I saw it done again on one of those Password nation style documentaries.YeahMalcolm Collins: having octavian [00:17:00] with usHaving Octavian with us this last month has been a lot of fun, but after talking about it, Simone and I decided that having a child around was mildly inconvenient, so we snapped a few final Instagram pics and took him back to the lab to have him put in a pod and frozen. We plan to pick him up again in a few years when we have some more time to dedicate to his social media feeds.We understand infant freezing is a delicate issue these days, but I hope through posting We are seen as the heroes I know we are. It is a great way to get all the affirmation that comes with having a child without having to worry about the effects a child can have on your career. Moreover, despite what you may have heard, there is absolutely no proof freezing pods cause discomfort.Most Freeze Inc. TM technicians agree the wild screaming is [00:18:00] merely reflexive.Simone Collins: Oh my god, IMalcolm Collins: completely forgot. There's also a bit of a take off of late stage abortions and stuff like that. Like third trimester abortions, you can see the kid screaming and everything like that. Like this s**t should not be legal. And yet people are like, oh yeah, sure. But I, I thought, I just love how many people were like Malcolm, I am not sure that I haven't seen the science around this Malcolm, but I think that this might actually be harming your child or like, I don't know if the thawing process is going to work as well as you think it's going.So really people, I,Simone Collins: I, aMalcolm Collins: number of people totally believe this.Simone Collins: I'm looking at the photos that I have on Google photos now of Octavian and their Yeah. It really looks like a freezing.Malcolm Collins: Really believed it. They were like, whoa, parent in the piece about like selfish [00:19:00] Instagram parents. I don't know if you've heard about the parents who like adopted kids.Oh,Simone Collins: and then send them back because they couldn't post about them on social media. Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Mm hmm. They're like, well, I was adopting kids for you know, photo reasons. Yeah, it is wild that people will like adopt children for social media posts. They're like, okay, I need an ethically diverse child and I need him to be very low effort. This is for social media. And then I'm concerned. How do these people often have bigger social media media followings than us?Simone Collins: I think they start young and they're really. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think they just spent more time, honestly.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, we really didn't start until after we didn't have to worry about money that much anymore.Simone Collins: I don't know, we still worry about money.Malcolm Collins: Obviously still, I mean, functionally, you get what I mean.Yeah. Okay, now I'm going to do the post that you've been dreading. Oh. The big one, the real one.[00:20:00] Today has been seven years since I met Simone. So this was five years ago that this came up. Oh gosh. Which means I have an excuse to talk about how amazing she is. Oh boy. She has a strict rule against me gushing about her online under normal circumstances. I genuinely believe my wife is a penultimate manifestation of the human condition.It is simply impossible for her to be better than she already is. She approaches life with a methodical mastery, giving her the ability to extract every valuable moment. For example, every morning she exercises for three hours on an elliptical she modified so she could type from it to ensure she is always fit, but never lets it get in the way of productivity.In the same vein, she keeps a file of all the new experimental psychology studies that come out and sends me summaries of Any she feels were well conducted, not only keeping her mind sharp, [00:21:00] but also helping me keep up with her. Her work ethic is superhuman. I can't even conceive of a person being able to work at full capacity for as long as she does on a regular basis, even better.She works without expectation of praise or reward. So long as it benefits our longterm goals. After all these years, she is still genuinely surprised when I voiced my appreciation for her contributions. The other day, I wanted to get her a treat so she could relax for half an hour, and she requested a pedicure, which I later learned she requested so she could keep typing.That's so, that's so you, Simone. She is one of the only small handful of people I would ever consider as smart or smarter than myself. The few small domains I consider myself an expert was in, but more than that, , she has more emotional self control than any human I have met by a significant margin.I genuinely can't remember ever [00:22:00] having seen her get mad. She has complete mastery over her emotional state while still being capable of Feeling and indulging in emotions when it is productive. I cannot think of a single physical feature of hers I would change if given the choice. And she is one of those rare instances of a person who has become more attractive as they age.So she doesn't have the emotional hang ups of someone who grew up super hot. But seriously, compare her early Facebook pictures with her modern ones. This is striking. Actually, recently you sent me a picture. And just so our audience knows this, you were like, Oh, I look so old. I look like the Curb Keeper.I look f*****gSimone Collins: awful. Why haven't you told me about this? I have ozempic face, but I don't have ozempic. Why, why is thisMalcolm Collins: happening? You look like the perfect farmer's wife. Look, you, you, you may not look like a teen anymore. I agree with that. But you look the perfect iteration of what a mom should look like.You, you look hard [00:23:00] working and, and stern and frugal and with, with, with a high amount of austerity. It's just all conveyed by your face, this emotional control and I love it.Simone Collins: Well, I think this is more indicative of how I'm not done. Oh God, don't do this toMalcolm Collins: me. Her minimalist frugality, combined with Terminator like drive to her goals, without allowing herself to to indulge in emotions forces me to better myself when I reflect on how short I always fall in contrast.She approaches her goals with dispassionate computer like logic, never caring what others think of her or what society programmed her to care about. She defines her goals then executes on them with ruthless efficiency and without distraction. I have never, heard her once distressed over another person's perception of her, which is a cause of some [00:24:00] consternation to me because I regularly fail to control the impulse to quote unquote show up people who thought I would fail.In another Facebook comment recently I was reminded of something she told me once she, once that shook me. One day I asked her how she managed to always work at full capacity and never succumbed to the desire. for trivial frivolities, she explained that she believes the continuity of consciousness was an illusion created by the way humans contextualize something that changes incrementally over a long period of time as being the same thing.An illusion our ancestors likely evolved to more easily relate to the world, As it is a useful way to contextualize objects. To her, the reality Was that she was about to cease existing. The entity that was at that point in time could only exist for a few brief moments and she needed to make [00:25:00] those moments matter rather than spending her only chance to exist masturbating a shallow emotional pathway.How can a person with such self control exist? For decades, she has been living an existence in which every moment she was alive was lovingly crafted to be the perfect sacrifice to the incremental march of humanity. How can a person live life like that? How could a person with such self control and such lucidity be able to do that?Display such constant admiration of a wacko like me. Another time I remember asking her why she would open a pocket watch. I bought her and set it in front of her while she worked. She explained to me, it reminded her how little time she had left to live a life worthy of me. Well, worthy of my ideals. She always reminds me that is not me she loves, but rather what I stand for.Do I live up to such lucid dedication? This [00:26:00] perfection is beginning to become a problem for me. Given that she regularly makes it clear that my core value to her is that I help Simone improve as a person. Yet there is so little left for her to improve.How could she be better seven years from today than she is now? And somehow, despite her incandescence, she still regularly expresses affection and admiration for me. Having these thoughts expressed to you so genuinely by someone who is so clearly flawless is devastating and reminds me how far I have to go to live up to the example she sets.I guess what I am trying to say is even though she is too humble to admit it, my wife needs to become the iron fisted empress of a world spanning empire with vast cloning blocks slowly replacing a species unworthy of her transcendence with iterations of her.Simone Collins: Well, I guess we are kind of aiming for that with our kids, but even better [00:27:00] because why clone when you can combine with someone you love as deeply as we love each other.But I want toMalcolm Collins: hear your, your thoughts on this. Seven years ago, I wrote five years ago. I wrote, how could you keep improving? Genuinely? Have you kept improving? Have you improved over the last five years or has it been steady state? I think you've improved dramatically. I actually think you've improved more over the past five years than you improved in the first seven.Yeah.Simone Collins: I have improved incrementally, but I have a long way to go. I, what I think about when I hear you read that post is the value in couples who have complimentary Skill sets, because when you marry someone who can do all the things that you do, then they seem so much less interesting and valuable and powerful.And all the things that you think are so remarkable about my work ethic and. frugality, whatever it may be, [00:28:00] are just natural traits that I don't work at. Whereas the thing with, goes with You'reMalcolm Collins: naturally perfect is what you'reSimone Collins: saying. No, I'm naturally incapable of relaxing.Malcolm Collins: You're naturally, so her family was Okies during the Dust Bowl and they stayed in Oklahoma.They were not one of the people who left. They left after that period. That is the, the mindset I see in you. This absolute steadfastness and, and just, I'm marching forwards. But then you also have this hope for the future that is just so Overwhelming and inspiring.Simone Collins: Yeah, but I feel the same way about you.I feel the same way about your vision and ability to see things that I could never comprehend your ability to across domains, make sense of things and make connections that I would never think to make, that you can look at an issue that thousands of people have looked at and have a fresh take on it [00:29:00] and come to a new conclusion.And contribute to domains that you, you know, previously know nothing about. And then you look at all the academic literature, you look at everything that people are saying in books and on YouTube and in public discourse and in the political sphere, and then come up with a totally new take and. I just, I so deeply admire that you, it's very uncommon to come across someone as learned as you are, who doesn't just regurgitate other people's ideas, if that makes sense.So you have both the understanding, the history and the background, which a lot of very educated people have, but you also have those really creative hot takes and interesting remixes, which typically more uneducated people have, because once they become too educated, they just Get trained to regurgitate other people's philosophies and ideas and I can't do that.I can't do that I can't be creative like you are I can't Not just dredge away at things in a way that would allow me to be more creative and to think in, in very [00:30:00] disruptiveMalcolm Collins: ways. What's so special about you from a perspective of a husband is you come and you're like, Oh, we both bring different things to the table.Like I just do all the work and you're the strategy guy. Everybody wants to be the strategy guy, Simone. No. Everybody wants that. Do you think most women actually just want to work for someone they respect?Simone Collins: Probably. I mean, I think that there are averages. I think that women are much more likely to be very good.Repetitive work style, people workhorse style, people like I am, and that men are much more likely to be. And we've talked about this. It's probably like an evolutionary basis here. I mean, this, the testosterone that that men have in higher levels than women is much more likely to make them more reactive.Take big risks and do things that could lead to absolutely nothing or death and could lead to really, really big payouts. Whereas women are much more likely to cluster at the center of the bell curve, to not really be outliers, to not be exceptionally dumb or exceptionally smart, but just kind of to trudge away in a very consistent fashion.[00:31:00] So I do think that on average, men and women are more like that. But what I do see in modern society is people moving in a more atomized direction where. Men are expected to be a little bit more like women. Women are expected to be a little bit more like men. And then they end up just bringing the same thing to the relationship.No wonder we see more couples breaking up. We're seeing people our age reaching their divorce era because. They both bring something either very similar to the table or they just don't really see what the other person can do or bring and bring to their lives that they couldn't themselves bring or buy.So I'm really glad that I'm naturally comfortable and good with things that you would struggle to do on your own and vice versa, because it makes us deeply in love with each other. And appreciative of the things that weMalcolm Collins: do on each other. I love, I love to see this idea of codependency, right? It's like, no, I'm definitely codependent on my wife.I could not emotionally [00:32:00] exist without you anymore. I completely rely on you. I am completely leaning against you. We are back to back against a hostile world. And I don't protect my back at all. If you turned around and stabbed me, I wouldn't see it coming.Simone Collins: Yeah, well, except probably you would because you can actually model people and I wouldn't because there have been multiple times where you've tried to surprise me with things and been, you know, Utterly successful despite many close.Malcolm Collins: I was so one time when I really had to lie to her a lot was when I had the engagement ring and I was hiding it so that she wouldn't find it. She lacks a single suspicious bone in her body. The, the, the, the things that we had to do to get this engagement ring to her were just so, so, so obvious.Simone Collins: wasn't obvious to me at all.It was myMalcolm Collins: brother gave me a sock at a meal that we had to like go through a parade to get. So like, remember it was like incredibly hard to meet him for this meal. And [00:33:00] then I'm carrying a, like a single sock back to the car. Why?Simone Collins: Why? I don't know. You fricking leave. I was like, this is very consistent. You, you leave clothes all over the place.It wouldn't surprise me. At all, that you might have left a sock at their place. So, I just assumed he was returning your sock. There was nothing weird about that to me. I think you guys were way more subtle about it than, than you thought. Well, and then you went to goMalcolm Collins: wash the sock, and I grabbed it from you all of a sudden.Like, like, angrily, and then hit it in a, like, bin. I don't know if you remember, I remember all of this, like all of the various times you almost found your engagement ring before I proposed.Simone Collins: Oh God, imagine if I like washed it and the ring got lost in the wash. I'm glad I didn't.Malcolm Collins: Oh, or the day when I was going to propose to you, when I did all these nice things.Oh, that's true. The whole day, extra nice. And I couldn't afford back then, I got you a massage. But I couldn't afford a massage for both of us. So I sat in the car while she was getting a massage that day. And you didn't think anything of it. You're like [00:34:00]Simone Collins: really confused that whole day. You were like, well, no, we have to get your favorite food.And then I'm going to take you to a massage. And I'm like, okay, you're coming in soon. You're like, no. I'm going to be out, just outside, just the whole time. And I was really freaking confused. I was so freaking confused that entire day. So I was like, Oh, well, let's just skip this. You know, let's just do, you know, whatever.And you're like, no, we have to do this. But yeah, I, I legit never thoughtMalcolm Collins: that it was, you know, We'll see if we can find the old proposal video. Cause a lot of people don't know. I actually proposed to her before the Reddit thing.Will you marry me? Oh my god. ThreeI will marry you, Malcolm Collins. [00:35:00] You could be a shiny thing. It is mine now. Cool. I got you! Ohshiniest thing I've ever seen. Look at how perfect it is. Oh, it's so much, it's so much more perfect than I one.That's a shoe! That's a shoe!I'm gonna marry you! And I'm gonna have a child, I'm gonna love having you! Oh my god! Do you see this? Do you see this? Oh, you just kept surprising me today with ridiculous things. I was [00:36:00] like, I don't know if I can handle this. I don't know if I can.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. CauseSimone Collins: I wanted a private proposal and I wanted to, no, you didn't want toMalcolm Collins: press you.You were okay with the Reddit one, but like, obviously you'd have to be absolutely stupid to propose to someone. You didn't know the answer to in a public context. After I knew that I would get a yes. And that had already been emotionally handled. Because to not know her answer when you're proposing in a public context is to publicly blackmail her.It's emotionally a shitty thing to do. It's like proposing to someone in a stadium or something like that. Like, don't do that unless you know, it's okay to do that after you have proposed in private and you know what they think and blah, blah, blah. Right? Like, but Anyway,Simone Collins: gotta be careful. I, I'm just really glad that I met you.I was saying to you the other night, cause we've both been thinking about our anniversary a lot that I talk a lot about how Malcolm has made [00:37:00] my dreams come true. Like even arbitrary, stupid stuff that isn't related to our goals. Like I always wanted to live in a beautiful Martha Stewart style farmhouse and now we do.And I always wanted. to have chickens that laid blue eggs. And now I do. And it's all because of Malcolm. Your dreams are remarkablyMalcolm Collins: easy to fulfill, by the way.Simone Collins: Blue eggs, I thought were impossible, like for normal people. And well, I guess no, we're not normal, but for non insanely wealthy people. And I, I also loved this one fictional character named Case Pollard from one of my favorite William Gibson books.And then someone described. Mary Harrington is being like her. And that was like a dream come true. And all this is newspaperMalcolm Collins: article written about us. She was described as being like this obscure character that she always told me she had based her life around and wanting to beSimone Collins: like her. I wanted to be like her.And I was, yeah. And like, you've, you've made all of this possible. And I always tell Malcolm about this. Like, I just can't believe you've made this possible. Our lives are so [00:38:00] amazing, but then I don't tell him about the fact that I'm just so thrilled to be with him. Because I didn't really dream about that as a kid, but it's not because I didn't want it.It's because I thought that someone as amazing as him, who could also possibly deign to even find me tolerable to look at, would ever exist on this planet. And the fact that you do, I'm still You know, you know, it's a good couple when you feel like,Malcolm Collins: so we never posted the video of who got the better deal.Because it was too harsh on our followers, which is like, you deserve not finding a partner if you don't have one. But I, I actually want. You know, in the comments who got the better deal and, and one thing I'd remind you in contextualization,Simone Collins: you're clearly got the better deal guys. Clearly, you know, how loving you just saw all of his loving FacebookMalcolm Collins: posts.I will provide a few pieces of context here. Okay. I don't think you're allowedSimone Collins: to praise me anymore. I have to let the audience decide for themselves. IMalcolm Collins: know. No, no, no. When I met Simone, she was a 22 year old [00:39:00] virgin and had only kissed one person. 24. 2420 sorry, 24 that significantly rises your value in terms of like a marriage prospect that makes it hard to find someone like you among some when you met me I was a guy who had previously slept around a ton, but wasn't doing it anymore.Wha had a undergraduate degree from St. Andrews and a graduate degree, an MBA from Stanford. You had a. undergraduate degree from GW. We graduated valedictorian, but still it's not that good of school. You hadn't gone to Cambridge yet. You hadn't gotten your graduate degree yet. Yeah. You were a better deal.Simone Collins: AndMalcolm Collins: I was a student at the, well, at the MBA program at Stanford. You were way out of my league. And I'll post pictures of us at that time period so people can see who's, who's at a who's league, but who has bamboozled who I think you, I think you have been bamboozled.Simone Collins: That's not true. I mean, I, I, I, but I do know that I provide like a s**t ton of financial [00:40:00] value because I, I handle.Our finances, payments, travel. I clean all the interior of the house every week. I gestate children, which is really expensive if you're going to pay for it separately. So I know that financially,Malcolm Collins: What would you, what would you if you were going to leave me, who would you leave me for? Nobody.Simone Collins: Nobody. My standard, again, my plan was to live alone forever.because someone as amazing as you, someone who I actually would want to even consider dating, not, not just Mary, but like even consider dating. could not have possibly existed, period. Like there were times when people had crushes on me when I was younger and, you know, they would kind of even insinuate that we could possibly be together and it would make me sick to my stomach, the very idea that, that someone else would associate with me.Malcolm Collins: People would send her love letters and she would put them in the sink and then pour lighter fluid on them and light it on fire.Simone Collins: It was the only way to cleanse myself of the. Great [00:41:00] discomfort. So I mean, my, I was very happy to be alone forever. I was very reconciled to it. And then obviously if, if you had not existed or I never had met you or you had married someone else, I definitely would still be alone.Like just, I know, like, I've no question about this,Malcolm Collins: ISimone Collins: know myself. I know. I wasMalcolm Collins: very insulted. You were so scared that that would happen when you metSimone Collins: me? I was, well, because you're too tempting and I probably would, but that would really suck for me. So to all the side chicks out there, really sorry. But also I can understand how you'd get in that position.And I, yeah, I would definitely be alone if anything were to happen to you, but that's not possible because if you do die, I will revive you and then kill you because you're not allowed to die. I would definitely never marry again. It's not, there's, there's no dis, I hate people. Oh, youMalcolm Collins: would, you would, I hope you would marry again for the sake of our kids.Simone Collins: No, dude, they're gonna be fine with me. Well,Malcolm Collins: am I allowed toSimone Collins: remarry again if you die? [00:42:00] Obviously you're gonna remarry because you need someone to do all the admin and s**t, but you have to, like I said, marry someone who loves the kids and who the kids love. Like you, when you marry again, you are marrying for the kids.You are not marrying for yourself.Malcolm Collins: Period. Obviously there's, there's four of them and one of me.Simone Collins: Okay. Yeah. So you already have yourself duplicated once, you know, you have one, two whole Malcolms. Two whole Malcolms in our kids. Get precedence over you, the original the OG. So yeah, you are 100 percent whenMalcolm Collins: she dies, she won't even let me marry for sex.Simone Collins: I feel like I was, yeah, not for you. Well, cause also you should probably marry someone and you know, you should be allowed to sleep with whoever you want. In addition to being married to them. But there was a historical couple where the wife was dying and she [00:43:00] insisted that her husband that she approve of whatever her husband would marry.So he found someone before she died and she gave her approval, which I'd never heard of before. But that is like actually really sweet. And I bet it would, you know, make things easier for the second wife because she knew that this was a fully endorsed marriage. And also like, we've met people who've lost their wives and who just will never shut up about them.And they're like dating other women, right? You know, they're dating really great people. But they won't shut up about their dead wife. And I think that it's super important that you like, let that,Malcolm Collins: I don't know. I'll ever be able to, you're amazing. So don't die. That's the key.Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, as long as you don't die, I won't die if you don't die.Well, actually, no, we can't have both of us die at the same time. The suicide pack. No, because our kids need someone. So [00:44:00] I dunno, all I know is I really, really love you. And I'm so glad that I met you. And from the moment I met you, I knew my life was going to change forever. And it did.Malcolm Collins: And what do you mean by that?Like you met me and you were like, Oh, he's,Simone Collins: it was like, I mean, it was a mixture of probably a lot of different hormones, but there was definitely a lot of adrenaline in there because I just, you were so, so different and you were so, what I, Always dreamed could exist as a person, but I couldn't like, okay.Once when I was in college, I had this really stupid web comic that hopefully is completely scrubbed from the web and it completely fell apart because I tried to write up a romantic arc. Because obviously the female protagonist in this stupid comic was probably some kind of write in for myself. And then as soon as is this, this write in for myself character in the web comic.Encounters what is supposed to be her love interest. I just couldn't, [00:45:00] I couldn't articulate what I had. Lacks the creativity to describe thisMalcolm Collins: love interest hadSimone Collins: you basically, but I didn't know how to draw or write or describe you because you're Just too amazing and transformative. And you're definitely not human.You're more than that. And I, I, I literally lacked the creativity and mental capacity to imagine someone as amazing as you. And then, so of course, when I meet you on our first date, how could I not be like overwhelmed with adrenaline and just completely overtaken by the fact that you exist and the only reason I didn't completely go insane for you is because I was also very convinced that you would, Never stay with me that I would never be a serious prospect for you because you were so profoundly out of my league and everyone I think in the comments will agree that you are, I mean, look, you do all the podcast editing, you [00:46:00] do most of the interesting talking.I just say like, Oh, I'm, I agree. Or like, what about? AndMalcolm Collins: I don't think our audience will see it that way. They'll be like, Simone is bringing the heat. She is the fire that fuels all yourSimone Collins: ideas. Well, prepare to be humble, but also please stay married to me. Cause that's important. So audience, please also tell him too.I love you to death Simone. Oh, and audience. For those who are watching and who've made it through this incredibly cringe fest and I'm sorry, and Malcolm, you know that the rules, you're not allowed to talk about me, so I don't know, I don't know what you're doing here. Except on my anniversary, when I'm allowed to.Well, it was two days ago I don't know, maybe you missed your chance, maybe this is, well, you know what, it's not in the marriage contract though, so technically you're allowed to do whatever you want, right? It's not in theMalcolm Collins: contract. Yeah, you gotta put it in the contract, no gushing over me in public.Simone Collins: But what we would also really appreciate it if you have made it through this cringe fest is if you would like and subscribe on YouTube and or because this is entirely impossible to us go to the link [00:47:00] Apple podcast page on your phone and leave us a five star review.Malcolm Collins: I love you.Simone Collins: I love you too, Malcolm. Get full access to Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm at basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

The Discord URL: https://discord.gg/27eJzt2nIn this thought-provoking episode, Malcolm and Simone delve into the unintended consequences of modern feminism and the culture war it has waged. Drawing from the recent example of Anita Sarkeesian, a prominent feminist figure who gained notoriety during the Gamergate controversy, they explore how the pursuit of self-love and societal acceptance has led many women down a path of unhappiness and unfulfillment. Malcolm argues that while feminists may have won the short-term cultural battle by securing positions of power and influence, they have ultimately lost at life. He contends that the mantra of self-care and the elevation of personal comfort above all else has created an ideological system incapable of providing genuine satisfaction or meaning. Simone shares her own experiences with the feminist movement and how the emphasis on self-care and self-acceptance made her mentally weaker and less resilient. She discusses the dangers of filling one's life with trivial concerns when there is no higher purpose or goal to strive for, leading to a sense of emptiness and despair. The couple also touches on the toxic nature of extreme ideologies, drawing parallels between the modern feminist movement and historical examples of imperialism and cultural supremacy. They argue that the desire to erase cultural diversity and impose a singular worldview is not only misguided but ultimately destructive to both individuals and society as a whole. Throughout the conversation, Malcolm and Simone emphasize the importance of living a life dedicated to something greater than oneself, finding meaning and satisfaction through the pursuit of worthy goals and the cultivation of strong relationships. They discuss the need to educate the next generation, particularly their own children, about the pitfalls of the feminist movement and the importance of making decisions based on outcomes rather than ideologies. Join Malcolm and Simone as they explore the complex legacy of modern feminism, the perils of self-absorption, and the path to a more fulfilling and purposeful life. Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Anita Sarkeesian was driving the anti Gamergate movement. Well, recently she had a birthday party where she married herself. Oh dear. I think we undervalue how much humans who live good lives are rewarded within their lives for those decisions and that I think we focus too much on.Rewards that happen posthumously, like heaven, hell,people who are choosing these ultra progressive life paths, you don't need to wait till they're dead to be laughing at them. Wait until they're 35, okay?It could be worse. At least you're not Anthony Burge. It could be worse. At least you're not Anthony Burge.Would you like to know more?Simone Collins: I did something very naughty while I should have been working through lunch. Instead of creating new NDC accounts on Lufthansa Spark platform for all of our [00:01:00] agents, which I did on a delayed basis, I instead wrote a Red Suzy Weiss's new article in the Free Press called, Ooh,Malcolm Collins: what's it on?KelSimone Collins: Durell is the New Way to Self-care ourselves to death. And it is about a, an ongoing trend predominated by women related to this concept of self care also highly related to what is referred to as bed rot or bed rying or Soft living, which is basically I went quiet quitting as well. It's related to that which is basically just about giving up, indulging in your feelings.Not working hard, doing the bare minimum, and doing whatever you do that makes you feel good is justified and right. And it was an interesting article, I hadn't heard of it. DidMalcolm Collins: it come from an ancient Scottish thing or a modern Scottish thing? Hercule DercleSimone Collins: is a Scottish term for like, hunkering down in your bed and kind of being cozy.There are other terms.Malcolm Collins: I never heard [00:02:00] of it when I was in Scotland, just so people know, I got my undergraduate degree in Scotland and lived there for four years.Simone Collins: Yeah, but like, there are no, there are no Scottish people in St. Andrews, I don't, very few because it's really hard to get into that university.About two thirds,Malcolm Collins: I think. Yeah. Okay. Oh yeah, because there's a lot of English people. Yeah, I think it's about the third Scottish when I went there, at least. Just so people know, it's now the top rated university in the UK, higher than Oxford and Cambridge. Oh man. And yeah, really cool. I'll say,Simone Collins: but I think this is very related to the topic that we're about to discuss, which is that feminists have won the culture war, but they've lost it life.And I, I mean, I'm reading this article and I'm thinking. Okay. SoMalcolm Collins: I think it's actually wider than that. So I'm going to expand the topic of this episode to include another one that I wanted to do. Okay. Which was really made clear to me about why leftists are so miserable. When I was in a, in a, another recent episode where we were talking about, and I was appreciating you and I was going through old Facebook posts, you had mentioned that I had made our life [00:03:00] like the end scene from Gladiator.This is their heaven. You know, he goes to a farm where he grows food and he has beautiful fields and he has a kid and a wife and they play together. it once.Make us believe it again.Malcolm Collins: Right? And that historically speaking, This would have been considered heaven. The life that we live every day today would have been considered heaven.And yet leftists would consider it this almost impossible toil, [00:04:00] because we wake up every day with meaning and believe we have to work. And I think it's not appreciating. They're like, but my life is harder than my parents. I don't get things as easily as my parents got things. I don't have to, you know, plan as much.I don't, I have to sacrifice more. And it's like, yes. And then you have like your great great grandparents, like looking on at horror and you in this infinitely privileged state, you know, not constantly struggling to survive being like, Things are marginally harder than the previous generation. My grocery bills are high.And it's, it's shown something to me that really horrifies me about where the left has gone, which is that people who live life in a pursuit of pleasure, will never know peace because they don't have things that really matter in life that they strive for. And they can be like, well, the right doesn't either.And I'm like, you do not [00:05:00] listen to like rightist music. You know, one of our favorite songs is by dirt. For example, if you haven't seen it, go watch it. It's a great song. It makes me cry every time. It makes you cry every time. It really does though. Yeah, it's a great song. But it's a great example of like, coalition, coalition of rightist values that are, are being taught to people, which is very similar to these, you know, Roman like values.The goal is to have your plot of land that you get after the military service, and then you spend your life Raising a family there and that time with them. That's not punishment. Like in leftist memes. Cause I love following, I'm following like all of the Facebook groups for like the antinatalists and stuff like that.Here's one of the memes from the group with a stork, delivering a guy, a baby, and him, , looking sad and saying, no, I ordered a lifetime of doing whatever I want. And it's like, can you imagine any poverty higher? Than just doing whatever you want whenever you want to do it any [00:06:00] hell greater than a life lived in search of personal indulgence because in the end that never satisfies anyone. They have literally created a Tantalus as punishment for themselves. For those who forget Tantalus is punishment. It was whenever he would reach down to sip water, the water would recede from him and whenever he would lift up to. Grab a fruit, the fruit branches would pull away from him. , And that's what looking for satisfaction in pleasure is like when you reach from it, it pulls away from you.It's the antithesis of satisfaction.Malcolm Collins: They act like, Oh kids, what a burden. I don't get to travel the world anymore. I don't get to you know,Simone Collins: bro, have you even traveled? I mean, Oh,Malcolm Collins: man. Like every time I leave the house now, like at this age, I'm like, I used to like traveling when I was younger. Now I just want to be back home with the kids.It's suchSimone Collins: a hit of life quality whenever we travel.Malcolm Collins: Yes. Back on the farm. Right. And so this is really [00:07:00] interesting to me when I view it in a culture war perspective and where this was really elevated for me and where I really began to pay attention to this was the, the fate. Of Anita Sarkeesian, so people who don't know Anita Sarkeesian, because I had to remind Simone of this, I was like, do you know her?Because I found a fact about her that really shocked me recently. Man, I don't know anyone. So, during Gamergate 1 now we're in Gamergate 2, Electric Boogaloo, our episode on that just went live today, which I absolutely love. But Gamergate 1 Anita Sarkeesian was really driving the anti Gamergate movement.And she ran a podcast called Feminist Frequency and she ran a number of like YouTube things where she would just like lie all the time. I mean leftists always do this. One of my favorites was She had video clips from a game where, where the character was like piling corpses of hookers who he had [00:08:00] killed.But this wasn't like part of the game. This was something, it was like, it was like a Grand Theft Auto or something. This is something she had chosen to do with her character film and then whine about. And GamerGate 1 was a really interesting moment because it was like, when the left Fully began to embody Like, what before would have been the extremist, like, Christian parent.Like, ah, video games are horrible, they're from the devil, and they're hurting my kids, and we need to get rid of all games, and all sexy tracer butt, and every character who looks remotely arousing to men, and everything, everything must be made clean and nice. And she had taken over this place.Perspective, but did it in a very lefty sort of a fashion. Well, recently she had a birthday party where she married herself. Oh dear. And it made me realize [00:09:00] something that I think we undervalue how much humans who strive and successfully live good lives are rewarded within their lives for those decisions and that I think we focus too much on.Rewards that happen posthumously, like heaven, hell, stuff like that, you know, like, the Westboro Baptist church, apparently they used to tell, even with glee to reporters, Oh, well, you're going to go to hell and you'll be burning in hell. And I'll be laughing then I'm like, to those of our young viewers.People who are choosing these ultra progressive life paths, you don't need to wait till they're dead to be laughing at them. Wait until they're 35, okay? And they marry themselves. But I want to talk about some of the ideas they were promoting and why it obviously led to this, and sort of how hollow this is.The marrying of herself is an Affirmation of self love, which we have always promoted as being terrible [00:10:00] idea on the show. Loving yourself for who you are right now is a terrible thing. If you want to admire yourself, admire yourself for who you have the potential to become. This is the same as your partner.You should never, ever be buried to somebody who loves you for who you are. Oh my gosh. that's what so many ofSimone Collins: these movements are about. Quiet quitting and. Hurkle Durkle, which is just being cozy in bed much longer than you're supposed to be. And spending all your time in bed and quiet, like it's, it's in soft life to a soft living.All of this is accepting yourself for who you are and even making yourself worse. And then liking that even more. It's hard for me to wrap my head around it.Malcolm Collins: So I'm going to read you a quote from Anita Sarkeesian that was posted in 2016. So it might've even been older than that. So this gives you an idea of what she was talking about long before her life path led her to this sad outcome.Having [00:11:00] stories that center women encourages us to see women as people who are important to their own lives and intrinsic humanity rather than defining them in relationship to men. So she wanted a world where women's importance was who they were in and of themselves. And this teaching hurts young girls because it leads them to view men oppositionally.Instead of the way that all successful cultures do historically, it's to view women and men as a team. Okay? We work together. And this is also one of the problems with the Red Pill movement. A lot of these Red Pillers who went out there and were just sex, sex, sex, some of them got out of it and they ended up finding partners, and now they recant their old ways.Like, like good long term partners. Like, the guy who wrote The Game, I think, actually did this. I think he's in a monogamous marriage now. I'll look this up and do a, A post update on this,Yup. [00:12:00] Neil Strauss is now in a monogamous Marriage. with a kid and regrets that lifestyle as does almost everyone who pursues it, it it's Al's bad. Like this ultra red pill lifestyle is as bad in as unsatisfying as the ultra lefty lifestyle. It is a hell that people impose upon themselves. Because they are living lives without honor, and not for something greater than themselves. When you live a life only for yourself, you don't get that Glade leader send off. Everyone's like, well, that was. That was a stupid waste of everyone's time when you die.Malcolm Collins: but he's like, yeah, everything I said there was a terrible idea. Don't do that. I tried it. It doesn't, it's not that it doesn't work in terms of getting sex.It's just that that life isn't satisfying. But she never learned that. She spent her entire life in search of self glorification and gratification. And people can say, oh, that's so sinful. But it's not [00:13:00] sinful. Like so many of these sins that are passed to us by old religious traditions, Aren't sins because, you know, some you know, arbitrary God is jealous of where we're putting our attention.They're sins because they destroy yourself, they destroy your own soul, they destroy your own potentiality, your own place in this world. And then they lead you into the sad cry fest where for a birthday, like, we don't even celebrate our birthdays anymore, Simone. The idea of celebrating, like, why, why would we?You might mention and I'll like I don't know what, like, what do you get on a person, like a massage or something? We certainly don't care about, like, WeSimone Collins: exchange gifts and We'll try to make the other person's favorite meal. That's kind of it, but that's normal for adults, isn't it?Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but this is because our every day, and this is something you've mentioned recently to me, is almost as good as life can be.Simone Collins: Yeah, it really, I don't know how to make it better.[00:14:00]Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but I'd love your thoughts on this because you were in this sort of feminist culture early on when you were younger. I think you certainly would have identified as a feminist in college. And I wasSimone Collins: certainly encouraged to engage in self care. And all of it made me mentally weaker and worse. So I think the problem people don't think about enough is when you don't have something bigger to worry about, all the tiniest things make you worried.So if your focus in life is not on something like your career or. Running the world or whatever it might be, right. Raising a family, then it's going to be on, Oh, I don't know if I can take a shower today, or I'm so nervous about leaving the house to go put mail in the mailbox. And I think that everyone can relate to the fact that everyone fills up their day with [00:15:00] the same general.And it obviously like, if you're in a war scene or, If you are subject to huge amounts of stress or you're sick, it's different. But on average, everyone fills their lives with the same amount of stress and with concern and with thought and work. But when you, the president of the United States isn't necessarily Working that much harder or that much busier or whatever, then someone who is at home doing absolutely nothing like a housewife, who's an empty nester, who has absolutely nothing to do.So both of them are like, Oh man, like, I have to do this and I have to do that. And then I have to get this. And they're all worrying about things constantly. But the housewife empty nester at home, is worrying about her own anxiety levels and what she's going to eat next and how she's going to make yoga class work and how she's going to deal with that woman that she hates so much at the checkout line.Whereas the president is worried about, Oh gosh, how should I do the drone attack? Should I not kill the people? Should I kill the people? [00:16:00] And then how do I deal with this press nightmare? But it's, it all fills the same cup. We're not that different in the end. And what I worry so much about this, this female empowerment.being turned into self care is that people are now throwing away these beautiful chalices that have so much potential and just taking these dumb little paper cups and filling them with absolute piss and that is their lifestyle.Malcolm Collins: It's a paper club of piss. of a chalice of holy water. Yeah. And they're just sitting there drinking it.No. And that is the truth. I think the key of what causes this is the mantra of self care. The mantra that my life should be dedicated to me being comfortable with my existence. And when you elevate your own self acceptance to the highest level of importance within life, and then secondarily society's acceptance of you Everything you do matters so little, because you know that everything you do is for personal affirmation, as opposed to a thing of higher value.You have [00:17:00] created an ideological system which is appealing to people in the moment, but that cannot, intrinsically cannot provide any meaningful satisfaction. Because you always know personally, the full amount of satisfaction that has been delivered from your pursuits. And we've talked about this in other videos, but it's a very important concept.When you dedicate yourself to any form of hedonism, hedonism, we don't just mean general, like any form of like maximizing your own emotional subset you know, and experience the full value of everything you do. And you realize how trivial that value is, and you begin to hate yourself more and more and more and more of what you do becomes a delusional hamster wheel of trying to make your life feel like it has value.And you end up then, as you preach this, destroying the lives around you. A great example of this was Anita Sarkeesian is Anthony Dirk. [00:18:00] You Could Be Anthony Dirk has got to be one of my favorite songs on the internet. I'll play a little clip of it here, but you guys really need to check it out.It is a great song about a male feminist who was left by his wife after they were in an open marriage for another guy who she was banging instead of him and took his Wii U.It could be worse. At least you're not Anthony Burge. It could be worse. At least you're not Anthony Burge. Be the head writer for a game studio. Enjoy an open relationship with your wife. End up divorced with her taking your wheel. They don't rhyme, but it goes, they supply. You might be Anthony Burch You might be Anthony Burch If you're ever feeling sad Just remember, at least you're not Anthony Burch [00:19:00] A message from V The MusicalMalcolm Collins: And he is one of his favorite songs. possessions with a framed letter from Anissa Tarkisian saying something like, you are more tolerable than most men.And it's like, gosh, like part of me wants to feel pity for him, but I know The toxicity of his ideology and feeling pity for these ultra leftists I think is equivalent to feeling pity for nazis and stuff like that because they believe Their cultural beliefs to be superior to other people's cultural beliefs and they want to eradicate Cultural diversity from this world and diversity from this world And eradicate people who they see As being savages, you know half child half animal they really are the modern example of imperialist culture, That it is sickening to me, anyone who allows this to invade their mind, but we are fortunate and that this very ideology, this very toxic [00:20:00] ideology ends up destroying them.And then when they, you know, when these women hit like 45 and they're no longer able to use their sexuality to get ahead, which is what Gamergate 1 was about. It was about women Using their sexuality to get ahead in the workplace and then, you know, sleeping with potential people they were interviewing and stuff like that.And then acting as if that was totally okay. And they didn't have an unfair advantage. But once they can no longer use that because they blinded themselves to these advantages they had, and that's what Gate and Murgate was, was it was women in the gamer game media community taking soldering iron to their own eyes.To not see how much their own sexuality was benefiting them. Because they didn't see that. They didn't see how much they would suffer when they lost their attractiveness. They didn't see how irrelevant and discarded they would immediately come Become from the perspective of the very community. They thought they were building because this community was [00:21:00] completely built around their sexual value.And it's so funny that that is what modern feminism became is elevating. and hiding that women were using their sexual value to choose their careers. And now that they can't do that anymore, they have nothing left. And they're living these lives of abject sadness that is so far removed from this, you know, heaven at the end of Gladiator.Simone Collins: Yeah, but also what's sad about this and you can deride them all you want is They were told they were doing the right thing. They were doing the ethical thing They were very very deeply misled and there were the Nazis beingMalcolm Collins: heard. I don't think they were told they were doing the right thing They should have applied critical thought and they didn't humansSimone Collins: Does they now this is going to be very hard for you to understand, but most humans do not do this naturally and you do either.I think it's a mixture. When you look back at your genetic [00:22:00] heritage, you come from a long line of people who question norms and the status quo. But then on top of that, a lot of things happen to you throughout your life that confirmed the fact that you cannot and should not trust anyone. So, you are in a very rare circumstance where both dispositionally and in terms of your education, you have been told to question and to not trust.The vast majority of people are not like that. Either dispositionally, or dispositionally. Or in terms of how they've been taught to succeed in the world and most people are rewarded for going along with the rest of society and punished severely for not, you will still even are punished severely for deviating from people's preferred views and it can still hurt you.It just. You've learned enough in life and you personally probably just couldn't wrap your head around thinking differently, but no, I, I, I, I mean, we're determinists, right? [00:23:00] We, we, we think that people are kind of sort of stuck in their mechanical futures through a mechanistic view of the world, but I mean, so it is their fault, but it's not their fault that it's their fault.Does that make sense? Yeah.Malcolm Collins: So to word this another way, cause a lot of people can be like, well, that's so uncaring look, if someone is like a child murderer and they're like, yeah, but I was great as a kid. And that's why I'm a child murderer. I'm like,Simone Collins: yeah, my parents were murderous.Malcolm Collins: My parents were abusive to me.And we're like, okay, well you might've inherited this, but I hate you in the same way I hate your parents. Yeah. And you are stillSimone Collins: dangerous to society and not doing good things. Well, no, butMalcolm Collins: I also think deserving of punishment. I think that Anita Sarkeesian is deserving of the terrible life she lives. She earned it from her lack of personal industry.And she, you know, it's called a bonfire of the vanities for a reason. People burn in a bonfire of their own vanity. And this is something that [00:24:00] we as a society used to communicate and accept. And the feminists didn't know this and they did win the short term culture war, right? Like they got the positions of power in society, but they lost themselves.They spent their own existences. Because they were fighting for an ideology that was fundamentally evil. It was an ideology that believed itself to be naturally superior to all other ideologies. They believed it had a manifest destiny to erase all cultural diversity in the world to, to be the only ideology.And they're like, no, and I'm like, okay, but you do want to spread your ideology to Africa. You do want to spread your ideology to East Asia when they're like, yeah. But like only the good parts. And I'm like, yeah, but the good parts to you is literally your entire world perspective. You'll let them keep their holidays, but that's about it.And they're like, well, we're really saving them. We're saving them from savagery. And it's like, yeah, that's what imperialists have always thought. You, you [00:25:00] are disgusting human beings. And at least the imperialism of the old days brought prosperity to the areas that it colonized. Which it did, just objectively did.Simone Collins: Yeah, whereas this culture seems to shred prosperity, which is really sad.Malcolm Collins: But this new prosperity saps regions of their industrial productivity. YouSimone Collins: mean this new movement saps theMalcolm Collins: regions of prosperity? Well, no, it's this new iteration of the same movement. I mean, it is European imperialism. It is a movement that comes from the European cultural value sets and sees itself as naturally superior to other groups.It is the secular imperialism. That drove Europe that has been reformed as what we now call progressivism and wokeism. And yeah, it, it is interesting to me to see this, but it's a little satisfying. And I think when you contextualize this, when you show your kids this, and you're like, look, these people are like marrying themselves and this is not a [00:26:00] happy outcome.You know, they, they are they're going to die was like 60 cats. And then the cats are going to eat their corpse because well, that's sustainable,Simone Collins: isn't it? And that would cut down onMalcolm Collins: love the most don't love them and just see them as a carry on source of food. And for people, what was that about? It's the TibetanSimone Collins: sky burial of.single progressive women. Yeah. I, I, you know, let's just make it a thing. Let's make it cool.Malcolm Collins: We need you to have that. That would be a good t shirt. Progressive, progressive feminist, Tibetan sky burial. And it's a woman being eaten by her cats. If we ever get really big, we can, we can make a little shirt about that.The progressive sky burial. Gosh, but no, I mean, it's, it's sad. It's sad, but it is just, and they won the short term cultural battle, but long term. I mean, I really think Gamergate's where things begin to turn around, as we talked about in the other video. And we'll [00:27:00] do another video at some point on Gamergate.It really exposes the left's core weakness. And Gamergate 2 does as well. It exposes how you can finally beat progressivism.Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, I think the important thing is that when our daughters are old enough, we just need to show them that the outcomes are probably not in line with what they want.And we have no problem with them adopting whatever values they want after they have weighed and measured the evidence and everything they've learned. But. I think focusing our kids around outcomes instead of ideologies is key and just making sure that they make betterMalcolm Collins: decisions. Yeah, I really hope so.I hope that we're able to protect them because I do worry for them. Going into this world, there's going to be a lot of people, especially if we continue to gain public notoriety, who in the same way they did with Elon's kids, are going to specificallytargetSimone Collins: our kids. Yeah, well, Torsten is just going [00:28:00] to scream about rocks to them because that's all he cares about, so.It'll be okay.Malcolm Collins: It's gonna be okay. I know our kids dispositionally, and they are our kids. Yeah, they're not. I do not think they are gonna be They're gonna find these arguments particularly alluring. Yeah.Simone Collins: It's all good. I love you, and I love ourMalcolm Collins: kids. That would be a fun thing. I really want to begin to bring our kids into these podcasts as soon as they're cognizant enough.And I think that I'd really love them to troll progressives who are trying to brainwash them. Like go with them along and then we can bring into these conversations into our podcasts that people can see, because I know that this is going to happen as the movement begins to spiral down, as they all realize they've destroyed their lives, they're going to increasingly and aggressively Target the children of people like us to try to bring them down as well.And the more that we can bring attention to how intentional this action is and how pathetic these individuals are and how pathetic their lives [00:29:00] are. I think it's really important in terms of framing for the next generation. That they shouldn't go this path.Simone Collins: Agreed.Malcolm Collins: Anyway. I love you, Simone. Do you have any final thoughts on feminism or your contextualization of it in a modern context?Simone Collins: I just don't think feminism is what it is. It's like that line from the princess bride. I don't think. That means what you think it means, whatever. I can't, I'm not quoting it right, but that's kind of whatMalcolm Collins: it is. I think that's a great way to put it. It's a movement that when you ask us members, they say, we want equality.And I go, then why are none of your key members fighting for equality? Why did they laugh at men? Why did they say men should die? You know, you said alsoSimone Collins: feminine should create good outcomes for women. And I'm not, I'm not seeing that happening. Really? No,Malcolm Collins: it ruins women's lives.Simone Collins: Yeah. So that's, that's my final thought is that it, it is a misleading term, [00:30:00] like so many misleading terms.Malcolm Collins: Well, I love you and I want our daughters to have great lives. And I think that couples modeling would happy and loving relationships where both partners are treated with respect. Is the, the true thing that you should be doing if you really care about the future of women, not marrying yourself at a sad birthday party.Simone Collins: Maybe it was a great birthday party and marrying yourself as a single person is it makes a lot of sense because when you actually think about weddings and marriages, they're really just for the women. So I don't know why women just don't marry themselves when they want something indulgent. And then.actual marriages are more just about, oh, let's create a favorably positioned strategic alliance. That's a veryMalcolm Collins: sexist thing to say, Simone.Simone Collins: How much planning did you do?Malcolm Collins: I mean, I love you to death, Simone. Our wedding was great and you did a great [00:31:00] job putting it together.Simone Collins: Thank you. But as you know, like it's a woman thing, so maybe we should just decouple weddings from Marriage.I don't know.Malcolm Collins: I have a good one.Simone Collins: Me too. 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The Discord URL: https://discord.gg/27eJzt2nIn this eye-opening episode, Malcolm and Simone dive deep into the startling data behind America's plummeting fertility rates. Analyzing a graph synthesized from multiple studies, they uncover a little-known fact: the lion's share of the fertility decline is occurring among women under the age of 24. The couple explores the implications of this finding, discussing how the normalization of contraception, declining teen pregnancies, and a lack of understanding about peak fertility windows have contributed to the current crisis. They also touch on the cultural shift towards delayed marriage and childbearing, and how this has led many women to miss their biological window for conception. Malcolm and Simone then turn their attention to a thought-provoking article by Reagan Artin's Gray, which proposes a controversial solution: paying people $511,000 for each child after their second. While acknowledging the potential effectiveness of such a policy, they argue that it is politically unfeasible and could incentivize the wrong demographics to have children. The conversation then shifts to the importance of targeting productive, taxpaying individuals in any pronatalist policy. Malcolm and Simone discuss the pitfalls of simply increasing population without considering the economic and social impact of those additional citizens. They also touch on the role of immigration in bolstering a nation's productive workforce. Finally, the couple proposes an alternative solution: offering tax breaks and special societal status to families with three or more children. Drawing parallels to the treatment of veterans, they argue that individuals who make significant sacrifices for the state, such as raising large families, should be recognized and rewarded accordingly. Throughout the episode, Malcolm and Simone challenge conventional wisdom about fertility decline, explore the complex interplay of cultural, economic, and biological factors, and offer a nuanced perspective on one of the most pressing issues facing developed nations today. Timestamps: 00:00 - Introduction to the surprising data on America's fertility collapse 02:14 - Breaking down the fertility graph by age group Malcolm Collins: , [00:00:00] Simone, today we are going to have an episode that I think our audience is going to really like, because I saw a graph today that did more to explain falling fertility rates in the United States than any other graph I've seen.Like, I think this is actually. The key graph and understanding functionally what's going on with demographic collapse, and it touches on a trend we had seen when we were talking about Latin American statistics, but I had never seen it so clearly argued was an American statistics.Would you like to know more?Malcolm Collins: Now, this graph was actually put together by a sub stack writer named.Reagan Artin's gray you can find it at Reagan's sub stack is, is the name of the sub stack. And it's an article she put together. Can we afford to buy marginal babies? And I want to go over the arguments. Made in this piece because they're actually pretty interesting arguments and definitely worth engaging with.But I, I [00:01:00] think that she comes up with a rational argument in the piece. Like it's a good argument, right? Or the best I've heard in terms of a policy solution. I just don't think it could ever get past with existing political climates. But what was really interesting and I don't need, because she didn't seem to realize in the piece that no one had put together this information before.At least two that we've seen. Yeah, she put together like five different information sources. So this came from NHS birth rates. This came for Osterman, Michael J. K. at all births, final data from 2021, Hamilton beat. Well, anyway, just like a bunch of different studies. And then through synthesizing all of these studies, you get this graph, which we are putting on the screen here and which Simone, you are looking at right now, I assume.Yes, sir. Okay. So what was your read of what's happening in the graph? Cause I remember it was wrong and I want to see how you got this wrong read. CauseSimone Collins: it was wrong. What I saw from this was that [00:02:00] we are seeing the same thing that we have always been seeing, which is that women in their twenties have been delaying fertility more and more and more.Oh no, I see. Yeah, I see where I was misreading it because I thought in the past women in their thirties were making up for it.Malcolm Collins: No, no. And they aren't. What's fascinating about this graph is it divides fertility of women in the United States into four groups. Age brackets. Age brackets. Age brackets.Yes. 20 to 24, 25 to 29, 30 to 34, and 35 to 39. What is fascinating is that only one of these groups is declining in fertility. If you were looking only at the 30 to 35 women. Their fertility has actually gone up a bit over time.Simone Collins: Same with 35 to 39. Same with 35 to 39. Anyone over 30 is having more, a higher fertility rate on average now.25Malcolm Collins: to 29 has [00:03:00] gone down marginally, but only marginally. It could be a statistical error. All of the fertility collapse in our country is coming from women under 24 years of age. TheSimone Collins: lion's share, at least. The 20 to 20, 25 to 29 range went down from, you know, Around 2.1 to two, which is non-trivial, like just under two.Okay. But what we see from 20 to 24, is it going from just under 2.1 to 1.8? A pretty big drop?Malcolm Collins: I'd argue it is trivial. It isn't non-trivial. It, it is trivial in the world of fertility collapse. A 0.1 decline in a period of like 10 years is basically irrelevant. The vast majority of the decline is, is, is coming from this incredibly young group.Yeah.Simone Collins: They went from just below 2. 1 to 1. 8. There's certainly, yeah, the youngest, the youngest 20 somethings that used to be having kids are taking the lion's share of this.Malcolm Collins: Well, [00:04:00] this is fascinating. And there's another thing you may not have noticed here. If you add up these groups, they then don't match to the overall fertility decline.There is additional fertility decline that is not being captured in these statistics.Do you see that? Okay. Do you see the dotted line? Yeah. Okay. That's the total TFR, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. The total TFR Shouldn't be able to go below the lowest of the indicator groups. Yeah, I don't get that Okay, so there's two things that could be causing that. It could be women under 20 have maybe just completely disappeared as a fertility group, which we actually know is true.Teenage pregnancies are way down. Yeah. So teenage pregnancies, it could also be as we know, people like to fiddle with fertility data to make it not look as extreme as it [00:05:00] is. Right. But all of the trends here are basically the same. So I don't think we need to read too much into this. The core answer here is that the thing that is causing fertility collapse in our country.is women under the age of 24 not having kids. Yeah. WhichSimone Collins: is like what everyone's been saying is happening in Latin America.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. In Latin America, we knew that this is where fertility collapse was coming from. And you can see the, our Latin Americans going extinct video that we put out because their fertility collapse is way faster than the United States fertility collapse.And they'll likely be below us, Latin America in terms of average fertility rates by the end of the decade. But yeah, so this is really interesting if you're thinking about solutions and it actually leads to a different solution than the one that she proposed, but I suppose it's one solution that you and I need to, like, seriously discussSimone Collins: teen pregnancy, making it, bringing it back,Malcolm Collins: not teen pregnancy, but.Do we advocate younger motherhood, like younger [00:06:00] women going back to these earlier ages of first fertility, like, should we make that a key advocacy position in terms of alerting people to this data, or is it about betterHmm.Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, I thinkMalcolm Collins: I think a lot of this is women don't understand when their peak fertility period is because it's verySimone Collins: poorly. Yeah. And then they missed their chance like that. Really? The if we were looking at this graph and people planned properly, we'd see a much bigger spike. in the 30 something range of people having kids because they will have frozen eggs, they will have planned adequately.And that's what's going on. It feels wrong to encourage really young pregnancy and people just don't feel ready yet. But,Malcolm Collins: but here's what I think is happening. Here's the gist of what's causing fertility collapse from this graph. Okay. Is that people are Two things. One is, is I think there's just fewer teen pregnancies.It used to be that [00:07:00] some communities were able to motivate a high fertility for their population through utilizing people with low amounts of self control. A great example of this is some cultural groups historically were known for their high fertility rates as we've talked about a lot because they banned condoms, and they banned abortions, and so when people had sex, they had babies, and that caused these groups to have higher fertility rates.These are the groups that fertility, that have their fertility rates collapsing the fastest. And, in part, it's because I don't is using condoms. Like I think that condoms are just so normalized now across the world that they are playing a pretty big role here where you know, they tell their kids don't use condoms, but their kids are still doing it.And I think that the lack of teen sex, which has also declined dramatically in the past 10 or so years, people who aren't aware of this, like it's like just dropped like a brick. It is, is. Also leading to this. So the communities that sort of cheese [00:08:00] their fertility rates by getting people who did not plan to have kids to have kids, this strategy isn't functioning anymore.And I never really was okay with this strategy to begin with. Right. ItSimone Collins: seems non consensual. Yeah.Malcolm Collins: It reminds me about the fertility conference and natalism conference. And again, at the conservative conference that we were speaking at, somebody was mentioning banning condoms, right. As like a mechanism of getting fertility rates up.And I'm like, but we don't want those kids. Like, we don't want the kids who are being had accidentally by people who don't want them and don't feel ready to raise them. Exactly. Like, that seems like a mistake. So, what we have to do is up the pressures which appear to be constant. Throughout this period, which, which is what's really interesting is these middle aged parents are not falling in terms of their fertility rates, right?So the pressure for people who wanted to have kids to have kids seems, you know, just as big now within the United States as it was in the 1990s, which is really [00:09:00] fascinating. Which I think goes against a lot of the intuitions that people had. I mean, it's a little bit less, but it's, it's about the same.No, the, the. What I suspect is happening overall is that if we were to make a chart people are just pushing back when they plan to have kids like women specifically by about eight years. I think on average, they're pushing back when they would have had kids if it was 20 years ago, about eight years now in terms of their planning.And a lot of them, and this is something we see that I doubt we saw historically as much because we keep seeing these among our friend groups. A lot of them just then aren't having kids because they hit the end of their biological window. Because they don't know when the end of their biological window is.They come and they go, Oh my God, I'm 42 and I can't have kids. And it's like, yeah, I mean, duh, nobody told you this. They're like, but 42 is young. And I'm like, NotSimone Collins: reproductively speaking, sadly. NotMalcolm Collins: reproductively speaking, yeah. And, and it's because they [00:10:00] haven't thought through the various stages.They're like, we'll talk to like 28 year old men who are like, yeah, I'm beginning to think seriously about getting married and stuff like that. And it's like, bro, thinking seriously about getting married is something you do in your early twenties, not late twenties. If you want to have a large family. And they're like, but that's so young.And it's like, no, society has just historically. No, that wasn't so young. The age of average first births in the 1970s in the United States was 21 average. That meant half of women belowSimone Collins: that. But I also think that men at that point didn't have as high of expectations, nor did women, of course. And that caused people to be more pragmatic about the marriages they formed, that they weren't trying to marry supermodels slash super successful people in their careers.I think maybe part of what's going on with this, and bear with me, because I'm not going to articulate it particularly well, is in the past, we had more people blindly getting into it and then figuring it [00:11:00] out as they go along. And I'm talking about both marriage and having kids. Whereas now people are only willing to do it when fully educated about it and actually ready, which is notMalcolm Collins: practical.That makes a lot of sense, which is why our school system, we teach a lot on sort of life stages, life strategy rearing kids. We have courses that you take on every stage of like raising children at different stages and knowing the current research on all of this. And it's something that's just not covered at school.It's like, this is something you do not begin to think about. Think about until after you have a stable career, definitely not until after college. And that's just not, you know, it wasn't the way that I was taught or my brother was taught. It was, you're supposed to find your wife in your undergrad. And if you haven't done it by then, you should be seriously panicking.Which I was when you met me you know, I was just out of my undergrad and I was like, I, I had really tried in my undergrad to find a wife and I couldn't find one. And I knew that you know, really your last sort of shot as graduate school [00:12:00] is what I told you because I, I thought you, you are basically deciding to be in like the way that I'm going to raise my kids and I think the way that people should be approaching this psychologically speaking is culturally embedding in somebody that if they are still an old maid, i.e. not partnered, you know, this used to be a really scary thing in society by the time they finished their education they will not find a partner or they will not have kids. They have basically committed to themselves that they are not having a family. Which is really interesting because, you know, we have friends who are in like orthodox religious communities who understand the need to have kids and they're like older, like 31, 32, but they're like, ah, I can do it later.And it's like, you really can't. Like, you should be pants on fire doing nothing but looking for a spouse right now.Simone Collins: I mean, I do think men have a little more flexibility there. And even in the past, the reason why women became very concerned was that men of any age were always looking for the youngest women, like early twenties, [00:13:00] very late teens.So they knew that once they were past that zone, even if there were many eligible men available, They were just going to be looking to a younger demographic. Whereas now we like to fool ourselves into thinking that men are still more interested in like people their age, which is not. Yeah.Malcolm Collins: So now let's talk about her article, which is really interesting to me.So basically the position it takes, which is interesting is we shouldn't try to pay people to have babies. We need to pay for marginal babies by that. What she means is there's no point in paying for the kids who would have been had anyway. We need to pay for the kids who otherwise wouldn't have been had.She's like, you could do something like state backed IBF, which she estimated would be around But she didn't see it as having a major impact on fertility. Then she's like, okay, well, let's do the mass and see what you actually could pay people. Because she goes against our stance. She doesn't think that religion is the only way to solve this.Or, or we use religion as court, shorthand for extreme [00:14:00] cultural changes and supporting high fertility cultural groups.Simone Collins: Well, I know the argument that she makes to be a little bit more pointed with it is that in the past, large governing structures, and she includes the Catholic Church as an example, have in the past successfully changed marriage patterns and infertility, so there's no reason to believe that government policy could not also do that.And. She does cite our arguments around religion, but points out that, and also cites Robin Hanson saying this, it is difficult to create a sustainable new subculture. And we totally agree with that. I think we also wouldn't disagree with the fact that the Catholic church has significantly changed marriage patterns in the past.And that from a top down perspective, you absolutely can change. Fertility. Our argument is that governments as they exist today simply don't have the political appetite to be able to invest in the way you have to invest. This isMalcolm Collins: what we need to point out here. So we actually, I actually agree with her piece.Like a lot of the [00:15:00] times I'll read political pieces about how this could be fixed. I agree that if she could get her policy proposal passed, it would work. Right. And so what her policy proposal would do is give people 511 K per kid. I think it's after the third kid. Or after, no, it's after the second kid.Yeah. I thinkSimone Collins: it's for three plusMalcolm Collins: kids. Yeah, you get over half a million dollars. Now one, I think that this is what is interesting about this proposal and what makes me like it so much is I think it's realistic. I think that 500k really would push people to have kids. I think it, it does this marginal thing of only targeting these really high fertility families and doing so in a way that is economically meaningful to them.And it does so in a way with math, hold on Simone before you counter with math that works, like, like, that is economically viable for a country to undertake. Political appetite wise, I think it's completely insane that this would never pass. And, and I'll [00:16:00] let you get to your point really quickly, but I want to point out what, like, how I know this would never pass.Korea, right now, has a way worse fertility situation in the United States. So if I always point out for every 100 Koreans, even at their current fertility rate, there would be around six great grandchildren. Yet their fertility rate is falling super fast. Year over year, it fell 11. 5 percent this last year.And they're already in a situation where there's probably nothing they could do because 60 percent of the population is over the age of 40 already. And they just now got past 22, 000 in subsidy per kid. She needs an order of magnitude higher subsidy to make this work in a country that is in absolute death throes at this point.And that is much more politically conservative than the United States and that recognizes this as a national issue. They haven't been able to get that passed anything close to that past. Like it just seems like a complete political fantasy to me, but I want to hear your [00:17:00] thoughts. Someone, you had something that you wanted to say.Simone Collins: I agree. It's a fantasy. And I also question It's efficacy in bringing in wanted Children, because it is very tempting to take 500, 000. And I think it would incentivize a lot of families to have kids that are not necessarily wanted or loved as much as the money is. I'm much more in favor. And what I think would be more palatable, but still isn't going to pass would be a tax break or tax waiver.Two families that have three plus kids, like you don't pay any income tax or anything else, and what this also does is families that are already relying on a ton of state services, et cetera. They're not going to be incentivized to have more kids that they cannot necessarily take care of because. What does a tax break mean to them?They're not paying any taxes or they're paying very little. Well, IMalcolm Collins: think that this is very true. And it's something that freaks out a lot of people when you point this out, but 500, 000 doesn't have the same value to everyone in a population. It has a differential value to your [00:18:00] least productive cultural groups.And even if I discount all of the heredity of, of, of various things that are tied to the economic productivity of an individual, if we're just talking culturally speaking, okay. People will admit that culture is passed down to people's kids, and people then should also be willing to admit, if they're like, logical, sane people, that The less productive cultural groups are going to be differentially rewarded by these systems and the kids that they have are not going to be as economically relevant as the average kid in her calculations.And therefore, when we say, Oh, what is it?Simone Collins: The point I'm also making too is even if we want the best outcomes for people who do rely on government payments for things like childcare or even just food, even if they're not having kids, whatever it might be medical care. You want to, the, the point of why governments need to encourage pronatalism is because they need to produce more taxpayers.[00:19:00]If governments only produce more non tax paying, very low earning citizens. Their infrastructure is still going to crumble. They're still going to be politically unstable. They're still going to have pension fund nightmares. What you need is high taxpayers. And so any government incentive to have kids should disproportionately incentivize those most likely to pay a ton of taxes,Malcolm Collins: which this does the exact opposite if theySimone Collins: were to give subsidies of 500, 000, that's why like payouts are not only Not only it's, you know, to get to the 500, 000 that you need, it's impossible to get there.But then once you do get there, you're incentivizing the wrong group of people to have more kids because you're not going to solve the problems that the government's trying to solve. Anyway, you're not just stupid legislation to pass. Like I wouldn't pass that legislation if I, Were in an elected position that had power.YouMalcolm Collins: literally run the pronatalist movement and you wouldn't vote for this. But it's, it's, it's actually really important to note how [00:20:00] severely bad this would be. Because you sort of touched on it, but I really want to highlight. If you are only like, if, if you keep the U. S. Popular. Let's say double the U.S. Population size, right? But you have only doubled the that through increasing the number of people on welfare. You have done nothing. You have made the problem infinitely worse. Yeah. AndSimone Collins: Prenatalism is not about more people. It's not about spamming the world with people at all. I need toMalcolm Collins: be clear about statistics.If somebody's parents are on welfare, there is a higher probability that they will be on welfare. A dramatically higher probability. This isn't some, like, loose correlation. And we're not saying you don't need to even presume some sort of genetic link here. Even if it's merely cultural, the number is going to be way, way higher.You have not made, you have, you have done the opposite of fix the problem with this sort of prop policy proposal. You have made the problem much, much worse. And [00:21:00] so you've kept the population stable, hooray, but you've made the problem worse. Yeah.Simone Collins: The government needs cash cows, not cash drains. Yeah. I, I,Malcolm Collins: and this is one of those things where like, you know, if we're talking about the prenatal movement, I would always rather have a, a, an additional productive immigrant in this country than an additional kid who is going to grow up and live off of the state.100%.Simone Collins: Yeah. An additional natively born native, like, you know, 17th generation American, whatever. Right.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that is, that is like, it's interesting that people like, Oh, they're prenatalism. No, no. I just care about the productivity of an individual. And, and, and, and, and so, I'm pro. The immigration of productive individuals when they're, they're heavily vetted.And I think that those individuals are something that we as a country should potentially even pay for in terms of advertising, in terms of how we go out and get them. Because productive people are the thing that's becoming scarce in this world. It's one of theSimone Collins: things that undermine governmental [00:22:00] and infrastructure and pension stability.It is not. It's not a lack of people, it is a lack of, a lack of tax paying people, which is probably why people are freaking out so much about refugee influxes in various nations, right? Because they're realizing that, Oh my gosh, wait, so all these people here that we thought we're going to help things like we're, no, we're just paying for them and not paying for anything.So who's going to pay for the stuff? And you have to have someone payMalcolm Collins: for the stuff. And then we've got to talk about the next stage of this, which is, which is sorry, where was I going with this? Oh, yes there is a solution inspired by her argument that I think could work. Now, I don't think it could pass office, but it could work.The solution is to create not just like you said, basically you don't have to pay taxes kid number three and up. And, and I think or maybe have some sort of incremental, like you pay 20 percent less taxes per kid after your second kid. And then I think that once you reach kid number three or four, you should achieve some special societal status, similar to like a war [00:23:00] hero or a veteran in our society.Simone Collins: Like those Russian medals of honor for mothers.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, essentially you get special parking everywhere you go. Oh, sweet.Simone Collins: on airplanes. Yeah. Priority line in the DMV. That would be soMalcolm Collins: cool. When you go to airports, they have special lounges for you. Very similar to what we do as veterans. Or they could just, yeah,Simone Collins: they could just use military lounges.So it's all veterans and people with way too many kids.Malcolm Collins: It might actually be a good idea to loop it directly into the veteran thing. Yeah.Simone Collins: Yeah. Use theMalcolm Collins: infrastructure. But because you are, in a big way, somebody who has lived your life for the state. Yeah,Simone Collins: and maybe even kind of ruined your body for the state.RuinedMalcolm Collins: your body for the state, undergone some risk for the state. Yeah, no, I mean, somebody who's had like six or seven kids yeah, I absolutely think that they have, in our current world, Made a sacrifice for the state that is equivalent to the well being of the state of most veterans. And that might be a really scary position to take politically, but I think most veterans would probably agree that Well,Simone Collins: female [00:24:00] voters would freaking love that.ComeMalcolm Collins: on. Well, no, no, the female, like, hardcore conservatives and natalist mothers Oh, yeah, I guess that one's really for kids. Does eight cats count? Why don't cats count? There was that famous article where the woman was really mad that The Miss Manners article. Had given what was it? Article?Simone Collins: Miss, it was a Miss Manners.Malcolm Collins: HerSimone Collins: mother had given some kind of either inheritance or she'd written, obviously, the one of this woman's sister's children into the will. And she was deeply disturbed that, Her own cat, she was childless herself, was not also written into the will because she loved her cat just as much, presumably, as her sister loved her child.Why should this cat receive nothing when this useless child is receiving so much? Seemed unfair to her. So I Told herMalcolm Collins: this, this article also touched on something that's really important to touch on. And we haven't highlighted it since the whole beginning [00:25:00] of this movement, but it's actually, you know what?I think it's a different episode. Cliffhanger. I'm going to do it, but I'll mention what the topic is. Okay. She mentions that the post that was sort of the kickoff of the prenatalist movement was made on an EA forum and it was heavilySimone Collins: downvoted. No, no, no. She's Malcolm. She's referring to the post that we made.Malcolm Collins: Yes, I made the post that came before any of the major articles on prenatalism that came before the prenatalist. org website. Yeah. That was the first major position piece we made. Yeah. And it is worth noting because now we are having EA people go into prenatalism as if it's a mainstream EA cause and it's just really interesting to me.Simone Collins: That could be fun. Yeah. All right.Malcolm Collins: So let's do that piece next. Okay.Simone Collins: Awesome. I love you and you're beautiful. I love you too. Before we get into that.Malcolm Collins: SorrySimone Collins: for taking so much of your time. You know that, that scene from The Princess Bride in which the Dread Pirate [00:26:00] Roberts is Falling down a hill and he says, and then princess buttercup comes after him. I feel like that's how I move around our house. I'm just like,Malcolm Collins: everything. She is so clumsy and, and ungraceful, which is not true.You're the very picture of womanly graceSimone Collins: who fell up the stairs on her way to begin podcast recording. You had to fill up the stairs again on her way into the master bedroom to do podcast recording. Get full access to Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm at basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

Our podcast, Based Camp, focuses on the topics of sex, politics, genetics, and religion. The first three are understandable obsessions for leaders of the pronatalist movement but the last often perplexes newcomers. Religion? This confusion is amplified when they ask why we haven’t written a book on pronatalism and realistic solutions to falling fertility rates and we point out that we have and it's titled The Pragmatist’s Guide to Crafting Religion. The great thing about being an American and exploring the problem of crashing fertility rates is that most of the developed world is further along the path to demographic collapse than we are, which allows us to see what has and hasn’t worked. The “obvious” solutions to falling fertility rates simply don’t work. You can’t buy fertility: Hungary spent 5% of its GDP attempting to do this one year and only rose fertility rates by 1.6%, a laughable figure in a world where rates are falling annually by double digit percentages in dozens of countries. What’s more, if you line up all the studies looking at whether financial incentives boost fertility rates, you see a clear association between the proposed effect size and the margin of error. Is there some amount we could pay people to get them to have kids? Of course. Is there an amount a government would be able to pay (i.e., something that would pass in Congress) that would make a significant difference? The answer is no. Anyone telling you otherwise is either not familiar with the data or is lying to you in an effort to promote some other agenda.Shifting the culture is the obvious way to save our species from the self-induced extinguishing of our most productive members. Yet actually doing so is not entirely straightforward. One’s first intuition when observing that conservative religious populations have more children within countries is to assume that imposing their beliefs on the population level is the solution. But then one sees that the more conservative a country’s average citizen, the lower its fertility rate, as Aria Babu has shown. Imposing conservative values through governments fiat does not appear to work and may even be counter-productive. The failure of universal conservative values to sustainably raise birth rates is likely driven by the same process that leads to native ethnic groups having higher fertility rates in ethnically and culturally diverse countries than in ethno-states or mono-cultures (when controlling for prosperity). That's right: an ethnic group that seeks to counteract low fertility by restricting immigration is actually speeding up its extinction. The reason for this, I suspect, is that high fertility requires not just a strong, religiously infused culture but one whose members feels like a threatened minority that is starkly different from its neighbours. This would explain the perplexingly high Jewish Israeli fertility rates.I suspect there are two major forces at play. The first is just common sense. If you have daily reminders that people who look, act, and think like you might be “replaced”, that is a strong motivation to have kids. In a country like South Korea (where I used to live) almost everyone you see and interact with shares your culture and ethnicity, so there is no daily feeling of existential threat. Think of it like a fertility-cultural version of the bystander effect.The second force at play is more subtle. When a government imposes a culture’s value system, the forces of intergenerational cultural evolution that made the culture strong in the first place begin to atrophy. If a person lived their life in a mech suit which moved their body for them, all their muscles would eventually atrophy.Cultures that maintained prohibitions on porn had more intramarital sex and thus more children. Yet they also taught self-control, which strengthens the inhibitory pathways in the prefrontal cortex. So when a country does something like ban porn outright (as South Korea has done) then consuming porn is no longer a personal choice where one affirms one’s cultural traditions; it is simply the law of the land. To see this effect in action just look at the correlation within the EU between how much a country restricts access to abortion to its fertility rate. Abortion restrictions are a good proxy for how much the government is enforcing value systems/perspectives that religions should be enforcing on their own. Removing the responsibility from a religion to motivate individuals to exercise self-control will destroy that religion over time.If religion is the answer, why not just go back to one of the old ones? While religious communities have shown more resistance to fertility collapse than their secular counterparts, they too are dying. For example, Catholic majority countries in Europe have an average fertility rate of only 1.3—a rate that will see them almost halving in population every generation! Things are not much better in Catholic majority Latin America:As recently as 2019, a benchmark study by the United Nations Population Division for 2020 to 2100 forecast that fertility in Latin American and Caribbean countries would stabilize at an average of around 1.75 children per woman in the latter half of this century. Stunningly, except for Mexico, all the countries listed in this graph have already dropped below this level. Uruguay, Costa Rica, Chile, Jamaica, and Cuba now have total fertility rates of around 1.3 children per woman—the so-called “ultra-low fertility” threshold that has only been seen in a handful of European and East Asian countries.Catholics are not the only religious group in which fertility rates are plummeting. One can observe the same delayed fertility crash across almost all religious groups. Even historically high-fertility groups like Mormons fell below the replacement rate and will eventually disappear without a change.“ The Mormon fertility rate is harder to calculate than other populations’ fertility rates, but there is evidence of a substantial decline. Even Muslims are not immune to this trend, with their fertility rates sometimes falling below other groups’ when they are in monocultural communities. (Iran’s fertility crisis is an obvious example.)”One might point out that there are often high-fertility sub-populations within religious communities. The problem is that they tend to be less economically and intellectually productive. These low-productivity, high-fertility groups are much more damaging to religious communities than they are to secular society, as there is much more interbreeding between their members and those of the low-fertility, high-productivity groups. (There is one study arguing that this is not the case in some Mormon communities, but the correlation shown is very weak.) With all this being the case, sending our kids into an extant religious community seems like tossing them into a genetic death spiral. It would be unwise in the extreme if I want my genetic line to be among those humans who colonize the stars.It should come as no surprise that throwing out all one's ancestral traditions—traditions with which one’s ancestors evolved—will have voluminous deleterious effects on the individual. It should also come as no surprise that clinging dogmatically to cultural traditions that evolved within and were optimized for not just a pre-internet world but a pre-industrial world will have disastrous consequences for the group. The only way to ensure ancestral traditions work as intended without updating them for the age of technology is to include within them a mandate for a pre-industrial lifestyle. This is why the only groups that seem to show durable resistance to fertility collapse are those that either ban their members from engaging with technology or have social practices that lower the economic potential of their adherents. What is concerning about these groups is that they are often wildly xenophobic, believing that eventually everyone on earth must believe what they believe. In fact, not a single religious group in the world within a developed country has been able to stay durably above the replacement rate while being economically productive and engaging with technology (except, arguably, for Israeli Jews).Some adherents of traditional religions assume that they can use their technophobic members to generate a large population that can subsequently be converted to technophilia. This strategy does not work for two reasons. The first and obvious one is the enormous dysgenic effects it will have on their population (culturally sterilizing the economically productive members of a group is not a winning formula). The second is that sub-groups within these communities that disengage with technology more extremely will outcompete those that do not. This can be seen clearly in Amish populations where the rate of cell phone use correlates with their fertility rate. Through cultural evolution the technophobic factions will eventually dominate the others (except for iterations that totally culturally and genetically isolate themselves).This is the crux of why we are raising our kids in a new religious system. It is also why we encourage others to attempt to edit their pre-industrial systems with practices that will make them competitive in an age of AI and the internet. All religious traditions evolve—the drastic social and technological changes that pose new threats simply require that such evolution happen faster.The genetic game we are playing is different from the one our ancestors played. Historically, if a group had cultural practices that lead them to select for higher economic and technological productivity in breeding partners, males from that group would regularly outbreed with females from neighbouring groups. This had the affect of reducing genetic differentiation between geographically adjacent groups. The advent of near universally enforced child support naturally leads to the genetic isolation of high-earning technophilic groups with the capacity for self-control (outbreeding is heavily punished by the state).As a result of this, any genetic IQ advantage will be amplified much faster than would have historically been the case. This is doubly true for groups that practice polygenic selection and have arranged marriage protocols in place. Oh, that seems harsh, does it? In the words of one of my favourite movies, “You disapprove? Well, too bad. We're in this for the species, boys and girls. It's simple numbers. They have more.” The old ways have failed us. Many bemoan the urban monoculture, whose adherents are known for their censorious “woke” behaviour. As threatening as the urban monoculture may be, when it breaks we will be facing an infinitely more threatening flood of xenophobic, technophobic, religious extremists who will drag our species back to the stone age if given the chance. This flood will come from groups as varied Christians, Jews, Muslims and Buddhists – some of whose adherents maintain a high fertility rate by using culturally induced poverty to simulate pre-industrial environments among their members while maintaining cultural isolation through intense cultural xenophobia.The pronatalist movement is a beacon for those few humans left who are willing to do what makes us human: innovate, improve, and band together so we can mount a real defense. God willing, once the wave passes, this movement will be the seed that grows into a vast interstellar human empire. Finally, you may be asking, “but why religion, why not just a few cultural tweaks?” Even if it's entirely secular, a suite of intergenerationally durable cultural perspectives and practices that differ strikingly from those of the society around it will be called a religion by the dominant cultural group. If my descendants think and perceive the world in a manner that differs from thought processes and worldviews of the dominant cultural group, calling them something other than a religious minority is merely a semantic quibble. And our descendants do need to think differently if we want them to survive. The religion we have built for my family must be one of many experimental cultures designed to combat fertility collapse. Our unique religion is meant to be one hypothesis among many—because that is all what we are doing: testing a hypothesis. You can riff on ours or riff on the traditions of your ancestors, but raising your children in the urban monoculture with unmodified ancestral traditions is like asking them to charge a gatling gun with spears. Our goal is not to create a new religion but rather a coalition of them that can share cultural resources rendered useless in the wider society (like marriage markets). If you want to join this network, please reach out, (we are building both a school system and will be doing yearly summer camps when our kids are old enough to socialize with likeminded peers).And if you are interested in the specific religion of our family, we lay it out in a Substack piece titled Tract 1: Building an Abrahamic Faith Optimized for Interstellar Empires. In short, we teach our kids that whatever man becomes in a million or so years will be conceptually closer to what humans today would think of as a God than to a human. This entity is so advanced that it exists outside of time as we understand it and thus, form the perspective of the entity, it is guiding us to reunite with it.God is the ultimate manifestation of human potentiality, and the good is defined by actions that expand human potentiality. We believe that this is the entity the Abrahamic Traditions1 were revelations of, and that new revelations are given to man when he has the capacity to understand them. Hence we have a religious mandate to expand that capacity (through both genetic and synthetic means). Ours can be thought of as almost an Abrahamic E/Acc religious system.Malcom Collins is the founder of Pronatalist.org and the Pronalist Foundation. He has written five best selling books with one topping the WSJ Best Seller list. His professional background is in venture capital and private equity. He runs the podcast Based Camp.1When we say this is an Abrahamic tradition, we mean that God has always done his best to attempt to convey truth to man but man of the past was not yet sophisticated enough to fully understand that truth. The story of Jesus’s life was sent to teach us that God’s Son, as man, must be martyred to sanctify mankind. Only through generational martyrdom can God’s Son (representing all of us) but also God (because we will eventually become God) remove man-kinds flaws that prevent us from joining with God. Of course, this is a concept that people during the life of Christ would have been incapable of grasping so when explained to them it came out as a convoluted plan for God to turn himself into a man, which man would then need to unjustly kill in order for God to forgive man. God told us that he was not the type of entity to demand a father sacrifice his son to appease Him in the story of Abrahm, but in that story he also told us that we, His followers, would believe he was that kind of entity but follow His word regardless until it could be revealed He was not.________________________________________________________________________Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] That is it. That's the piece. It was the foundation to this and it's sort of the foundation to, you know, the question of why, why are we doing all this?Simone Collins: And I guess the TLDR is we want to create an intergenerationally durable culture that is also capable of very significant technological advancement to the extent that we would want to see this group of people get off earth and go beyond.Malcolm Collins: A lot of people are like, well, I disagree with what you say in the tracks and we're like, that's fine.Like we, we are totally open to that. We are one belief system among many. And then some people are like, well, These tracks contrast with traditional systems. And it's like, yes, if they didn't, then they wouldn't be a new system. We are trying something new because other people are trying the older things.But we have no animosity. Like, you aren'tNot.Malcolm Collins: part of the pronatalist movement just because you differ from us theologically. We believe [00:01:00] that theological differences are a thing of existential value in terms of cultural solutions.Simone Collins: Yeah, I mean, I guess a lot of it depends on how robust we're going to be able to make this and IMalcolm Collins: mean, I think the final question I have for you is you, you sort of got all this sprung on you.You know, I've seen like the girl defined videos recently. One of their husbands came out as an atheist. No, wait, what?Simone Collins: What? Oh my God. I've been doing way too much work and not enough fun.Malcolm Collins: But when you married me, I mean, you married a staunch atheistWould you like to know more?Simone Collins: I cannot tell you how much I enjoy these conversations.Malcolm Collins: This one's going to be very different from the others. It's going to say track to zero which means that it's not actually officially one of the tracks, but it's the thing that inspired the tracks, which is to say that Aporia magazine, I was actually talking to one of our fans recently, and they hadn't been to Aporia magazine, and so I was like, Oh, you should really check it out.It's a, it's a great, like if you like our channel, you're probably going to like [00:02:00] what they're doing. And then I go to Aporia's website, and I shared this with you, and our daughter was on the front page. Oh,Simone Collins: she's so cute. So.Malcolm Collins: Did you see this? It's, it's So, so here's an example of like a random first page.Elites are genetically different. How do different groups form? How to solve demographic collapse. Six ideas to arrest fertility decline. Human biodiversity, a guide. And then embryo selection towards a healthier society. And that's the one that has our daughter on the cover. And I was just like, every one of those topics is something that one of our fans would love.So, I can see how we have a big overlap, but anyways, so the guy who runs it reached out to me, and he asked me about doing a like, commissioning a piece for me on sort of our religious ideas and stuff like that, because we had talked about it a little bit on the show, but not really gone deep into it, and I go, yeah, sure, like, why not?Like, let's, let's, let's do [00:03:00] this. And I ended up getting way too into it and writing something way too long. So I broke it into like 10 different pieces and that became the tracks. It's like the story ofSimone Collins: every bookMalcolm Collins: you write, right? I think I'm going to go into something small and then it ends up getting way too long.But yeah, so the, the first of the tracks. Not tract one, but like the one that was actually the commission, which was like the justification for writing all the others became published in their magazine. And that's what I'm going to read as sort of tract zero. And it is a summary, a lot of, a lot of our other ideas that people might be familiar with or something like that.So it's not going to have a ton of new stuff in it, but it is a very good summary of Ideas that we cover all the time, but in a lot more detail and was a lot more data. And it's a piece that I've referenced in several episodes. So obviously I see it as sort of like a foundational, like, if you want to see why we're doing X, or you want to see what we, why we think, why check this out and was the tracks more broadly, what I'm really doing is just reading [00:04:00] things.I've taken the time to write which means that I've put a lot more thought thought into them than what normally goes on in a podcast. You know, if you're reading one of our books, this is something that we have read over, you know, at least like 20 times. And same with every one of the tracks and same was, was this sort of stuff.So, so very different in terms of quality of what you're getting anywhere else. So the piece is called reversing the fertility collapse. You can't buy fertility and imposing values through government fiat doesn't work. New and fortified religions are the only realistic solution. Our podcast Basecamp.focuses on the topics of sex, politics, genetics, and religion. The first three are understandable obsessions for the leaders of the pronatalist movement, but the last often perplexes newcomers. Religion? This confusion is amplified when they ask why we haven't written a book on pronatalism and realistic solutions to falling fertility rates, and we point out that we have, and it's titled The Pragmatist Guide to [00:05:00] Crafting Religion.The great thing about being an American and experiencing the problem of crashing fertility rates is that most of the developed world is further along the path to demographic collapse than we are. Which allows us to see what has and hasn't worked. The quote unquote obvious solutions to falling fertility rates simply don't work.You can't buy fertility. Hungary spent 5 percent of its GDP attempting to do this one year, and only rose fertility rates by 1. 6%. A laughable figure in a world where rates are falling annually by double digit percentages in dozens of countries. What's more, if you line up all the studies looking at whether, for, whether financial incentives boost fertility rates, you see a clear association between the proposed effect size and the margin of error.Is there some amount we could pay people to get them to have kids? Of course. Is there an amount a government would be able to pay, i. e. something that Congress would pass [00:06:00] that would make a significant difference? The answer is no. Anyone telling you otherwise is either not familiar with the data or is lying to you in an effort to promote some other agenda.Simone Collins: I mean, we've talked about this extensively. I agree. It is just what apparently the dataMalcolm Collins: shows. It's just one of these things that whenever you look at it, it doesn't work. You cannot buy high fertility rates. And it makes sense when you think about it, right? Suppose somebody was like, I will pay you, like a large amount, like 50, 000 to have kids, right?But then that amount isn't like that big when you think about the cost that you're undergoing, it's a permanent change in your life. I mean, it's almost as serious a change as like, I'll pay you 50, 000 to get a gender transition. Like, would you do that? Like you, you can't go on trips easily anymore. Sorry, I'm not talking about gender transition.I'm talking about kids. You can't go on trips easily anymore. You can't, you know, you are committing to something that you can't easily back out of. It makes sense that it's not something that you can just pay people around. [00:07:00] You need to enable lifestyle changes and change the way they, they see kids. So this is all stuff we've talked about before, but it's good to have it all in one place, I think.Yes.Shifting the culture is the obvious way to save our species from self induced extinguishing of our most productive members. Yet, actually doing so is not entirely straightforward. One's first intuition when observing conservative religious populations have more children within countries is to assume that imposing their belief on population, on the population level is a solution.But, then one sees, the more conservative a country's average citizen, the lower its fertility rate, as Aryababu has shown. Imposing conservative values through government fiat does not appear to work, and may even be counterproductive. The failure of universal conservative values to sustainably raise, birth rates is likely driven by the same process that leads to native ethnic groups having higher fertility rates in an ethnically and culturally diverse countries than in ethnostates or monocultures when [00:08:00] controlling for prosperity.That's right. An ethnic group that seeks to counteract low fertility by restricting immigration is actually speeding up its extinction. The reason for this, I suspect, is that high fertility requires not just a strong religiously infused culture, but one whose members feel like a threatened minority that is starkly different from its neighbors.This would explain the perplexingly high Jewish Israeli fertility rates. I suspect there are two major forces at play. The first is just common sense. If you have daily reminders that people who look Act and think like you might be quote unquote replaced, that is a strong motivation to have kids. In a country like South Korea, where I used to live, almost everyone you see and interact with shares your culture and ethnicity, so there is no daily feeling of existential threat.Think of it like a fertility cultural version of the bystander effect. By the way, Simone, you're familiar with the bystander effect?Simone Collins: Where people don't take action when they are in aMalcolm Collins: large group. Yeah. The famous thing [00:09:00] isSimone Collins: like somebody, someone being murdered in the street and people just kind of sitting around being like, someone ought to do something.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Someone else is probably doing something about this. And some people have said that it's been debunked or not properly replicated. Just where I left off with. That I don't think it has. I mean, it's just intuitive to me if I'm walking down the street in Manhattan versus walking down the street in a small neighborhood and I see somebody who looks like they're injured up against the side of a building.I'm going to do something in a small neighborhood and not in Manhattan. LikeSimone Collins: actually, yeah, that's true. Because remember when we walked by that wall street bro, who was like facedown on the ground in that park in. OhMalcolm Collins: yeah, and we actually were like,Simone Collins: wow, he looks pretty fucked up and then we just kept walking.Oh God.Malcolm Collins: Anyway, you were the worst. We didn't want to deal with it.Simone Collins: Yeah. No, he just looked very drunk, butMalcolm Collins: we could have done worse. The second force at play is more subtle. When a government imposes a culture's [00:10:00] value system, the forces of intergenerational cultural evolution that made the culture strong in the first place begin to atrophy.If a person lived their life in a mech suit which moved their body for them, all their muscles would eventually atrophy. Cultures that maintained prohibitions on porn had more intermarital sex and thus more children. Yet, they also taught self control, which strengthens the inhibitory pathways in the prefrontal cortex.So, when a country does something like ban porn outright, as South Korea has done, then consuming porn is no longer a personal choice where one affirms one's cultural traditions. It is simply the law of the land. To see this effect in action, just look at the correlation within the EU between how much a country restricts access to abortion and And it's fertility rate abortion restrictions are a good proxy for how much the government is enforcing value systems slash perspectives that religion should be enforcing on their own, removing the responsibility from religion to motivate individuals to exercise self control will [00:11:00] destroy that religion over time.And this abortion stuff is actually new to this article. So I'll put it on screen here. Cause it's really interesting that it is a very high correlation. You know, and this is something that we, you know, so many people we talked to just immediately assume we're going to be on their side or that pronatalism is the same as the pro life movement.And we're like, actually in many ways, they're directly antagonistic towards each other. Which, you know, if you want to see our arc or who's killing more kids, Catholics or us, we go into this topic and a lot of question into like the Christian theology around when does life begin? Blah, blah, blah. But yeah, do you have any thoughts on this?Simone Collins: No, I just, I, yeah, I, I think when I, when I ask, Or here, I'll put it this way. When friends of ours who are pronatalists and in the know say, Oh, I met so and so and they're pronatalist. Now what I ask is like, okay, are they like the default non researched pronatalist? Meaning that they think it's all about cash handouts or it's about [00:12:00] YIMBY or it's about Abortions or birth control.Like they sort of point to one thing. Or are they like an actual pernatalist who like understands that this is a mixture of cultural factors and schooling and economic norms and social norms, et cetera government regulation and that has to do with standards that parents are held to things of that sort.And normally there are more pernatalists now than there used to be. I think that the movement is growing, but still most of them fall into that basic category where they don't, They're not actually aware of and fighting for what we would consider to be real solutions.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And this is something we'll get into more, but it's something I was actually thinking about when we were in talks with somebody recently is the pronatalist movement has been able to successfully integrate a lot of religious extremists or very conservative religious movements.Like very conservative Jewish groups, very conservative Mormon groups, et cetera. But the one group that we've never really at a large scale integrated is the Catholic [00:13:00] community because of these differences. Like there's a lot of Catholic, like on the ground pronatalists, but I mean, Catholic thought leaders haven't integrated with the movement in the same way thought leaders in other communities have, which is very interesting to me.Yeah. And it, and it, it, it's interesting that it also aligns with the ultra low Catholic fertility rates. Which really worries us. But again see our Catholic episode for more info on this.If religion is the answer, why not just go back to one of the old ones? While religious communities have shown more resistance to fertility collapse than their secular counterparts, they too are dying. For example, Catholic majority countries in Europe have an average fertility rate of only 1. 3, a rate that will see them almost halving in population every generation.Things are not much better in Catholic majority Latin America, and here I'm quoting an article. As recent as 2019, a benchmark study by the United Nations Population Division for 2020 to 2100 forecasts that fertility in Latin America and Caribbean countries would stabilize at an average of around 1.75 children per woman in the latter half of this century. [00:14:00] Stunningly, except for Mexico, all countries listed in this graph have already dropped below this level. Uruguay, Costa Rica. Chile, Jamaica, and Cuba now have total fertility rates of around 1. 3 children per woman, the so called ultra low fertility threshold that has only been seen in a handful of European and East Asian countries.Catholics are not the only religious group in which fertility rates are plummeting. One can observe the same delayed fertility crash across almost all religious groups. Even historically high fertility groups like Mormons, fell below replacement rate and will eventually disappear without change. The mormon fertility rate has been harder to calculate than other populations fertility rates, but is, but there is evidence of a substantial decline.Even Muslims are not immune to this trend with their fertility rates sometimes falling below other groups when they are in monocultural communities. Iran's fertility crisis is an obvious example. When my point that there are. often high fertility subpopulations within religious communities. [00:15:00] The problem is that they tend to be less economically and intellectually productive.These low productivity, high fertility groups are much more damaging to religious communities than they are to secular society, as there is more interbreeding between their members and those of the low fertility, high productivity groups. There is one study arguing that That this is not the case in some Mormon communities, but the correlation shown is very weak.With all this being the case, sending our kids into an extant religious community seems like tossing them into a genetic death spiral. It would be unwise to the extreme if I want my genetic line to be among those humans who colonize the stars.Well, ISimone Collins: just want to point this out to those who are a little bit critical of the Tracked series, or when we say things in when I say we, I really mean you, Malcolm, because you're the brain leading all of this. I cannot take credit. But when we say things that you may disagree with religiously that are, they're counter to traditional religions that are not part of them.I [00:16:00] think the important thing to keep in mind is that we are trying to create an iteration of an intergenerational, a durable religion and culture that can take people to the stars. And we. very much respect traditional religions. And I mean, what, how did you describe it? Just their death spiral. We do actually want our kids to have as a backup traditional religion.If ours doesn't work out, we want our kids to know that that's the next place they turn, not the urban monoculture. However we are not contributing to society. We're not advancing society. If we do. If we turn to a traditional religion, those are handled. People are going to be members of them unless they die out.There are lots of people who are already pursuing them.Malcolm Collins: A great way to put it. If the traditional religions work, they're already safe. If they don't work, then they're going to die. Then we need to do something. Advantage to us in moving back to them. But in general, I do feel that many of them are dying.And it is one of the things I noticed recently that was really [00:17:00] interesting is the fertility rate of a religion is also often inversely correlated was when it was founded or differentiated from its parent religious system. Okay. Walk me through this. So you look at some of the oldest religions in the world right now, like what's the oldest, like probably extent religious in the world you're looking at two religious groups.You're looking at the Zoroastrians who became the Parsi. They have a desperately low fertility rate. And then you're looking at the Hindi. Who also have a desperately low fertility rate. Then you're looking at other really old religious systems while you're looking at Buddhism, desperately low fertility rate.Okay. You look at slightly newer systems. You've got systems like early Christian groups, like Catholics and the Orthodox community. But they're much, much lower than other Christian communities. They're the lowest of all Christian conservative communities with Orthodox majority countries having fertility rates of like 1.2, 1. 3 on average, and Catholics being around 1. 3. Then you look at later breakoff communities like [00:18:00] the, Protestants and the Muslims, and they have much higher fertility rates. The only community that really bucks this is the Jewish community. And that's only if you don't consider modern Orthodox Judaism, a new religionSimone Collins: which you would argue actually would count as kind of, yeah,Malcolm Collins: I argue that it was really founded. What we call ultra Orthodox Judaism was really founded in the 1800s. And is the newest of all of the major religious communities in the world. Which is one of the things that causes a lot of our friction was Jewish communities.Is there like, you guys seem to really like Jewish teachings and scripture and we're like, yeah, we do. And then they're like, well, then come join our Hasidic community. And I'm like, I don't really consider Hasidics ancestrally Jewish. I, I like them. LikeSimone Collins: they're great. They're well, not many of them genetically or ancestrally.Malcolm Collins: Well, they're genetically, which is why they've sort of been able to skirt under the radar was in the Jewish world. By that, what I mean is, is in the traditional ancestral Jewish communities framework, if somebody [00:19:00] is matrilineally Jewish and holds to the Jewish like Sabbath and a few other major traditions.Then they are Jewish, like you, you cannot impede their Jewishness, which means even if they have adopted like an entirely new set of teachings and an entirely new conception of God they can't be called by members within the Jewish community as distinctly non Jewish. Yet to me,As somebody who's studying the evolution of religious traditions. , I don't need to look at this through the Jewish lens. And because of that, it is much more useful To consider the Hasidic movement in entirely new and distinct religious movement. if I'm creating a taxonomy of religious traditions and trying to understand religious traditions interact with each other? How religious practices relate to fertility rates. How religious traditions.Transferred themselves between generations. Or how religious practices and beliefs about God relate to a [00:20:00] religious traditions, industrial and scientific output. In the same way that I would consider something like Mormons. Not meaningfully a Christian group, but an entirely new Abrahamic branch. Even though that concept would be offensive to Mormons. They are different enough from other Christian groups that if you're studying the history of religious traditions, you need to consider them taxonomically separate. To fully appreciate how their differences impact their community.Malcolm Collins: When I look at the Hasidic community today, they're very similar to, and I might need to look this up if I'm remembering it wrong.I want to thinkNazarenes.Malcolm Collins: community which was a group of the followers of Christ who considered themselves fully Jewish not long after Christ died, but they they, they were practicing forms of Judaism that were much more focused on sort of populism and actually have a lot, lot, lot in common with modern day Hasidic movement and people.In fact, I would argue that the Nazarenes had more in common with the modern [00:21:00] Hasidic movement than the modern Hasidic movement. Does.To traditional Jewish religious practices. And conceptions of God.Malcolm Collins: And I think that the only reason that they really died out is because the non Jewish Christian movement got so big. And that if you look at the Jewish community today, if these pop Kabbalah, I'll call it, got really big, which it could, I mean, it is a growing movement right now. This is like non Jewish Kabbalism.It might get so big that the Hasidic movement will just, in the same way that the Nazarene's ​Malcolm Collins: died out, you know, look very obviously non Jewish to people. But right now, because there isn't a big, large non Jewish contingent.If people want more of a deep dive on this topic, I could potentially do one, but it's something that I hesitate on is I fear that it could drive. anti-Semitic sentiments. And that's really not my goal in pointing this out. It's more of a, someone who's just a real nerd about religious history and like [00:22:00] getting into the nuances that the very Abrahamic faith traditions. But, but it's something that I think that, you know, intuitively if you're being honest and you're looking at the Hasidic tradition and you're looking at its origin, you would see that, well, it is Jewish by Jewish standards. If an outsider was looking at it, they'd be like, yes, but both of your practices and conceptions of God. Are radically different from Jewish conceptions of God before the Hasidic movement. And therefore it is. In the eyes of like Christianity, for example, a new sect that is. More different than say, Catholics are from Protestants. But Judaism doesn't really allow for sex in the way that Christian groups allow for, for sex differences. Meaning that it is offensive to point out that their conception of God is quite radically different from earlier Jewish conceptions of God. If you go to our earlier tracks, [00:23:00] the Hasidic conception of God. Generally follows much closer to the mystic tradition, conception of God. Whereas the earlier Jewish conception of God. Follows much closer to either the monotheistic or polytheistic interpretation of God. And that a lot of the teachings that they elevate are fairly new teachings, like the Kabbalah, which is, you know, not more than a thousand years old., But that's why we don't go deeper on this topic because I don't really think that anyone benefits from our overly. Nerding out about religious historyin this particular niche. And the, is that a community takes a lot of pride in the antiquity of their religious tradition and pointing out that it doesn't actually have that much antiquity. It's sort of like when you point out to a Chinese person and they're like, our culture is so old, it has so much history. And you're like, well, Not really, you sorta did a cultural reset during the,The cultural revolution. , and you don't have that many strong connections to your earlier [00:24:00] traditions. And that's considered very offensive to say to a Chinese person, even if it's obviously an objectively true. So there's no point in. Challenging part of a group self narrative that is important to that group in detail.Malcolm Collins: But anyway, this is totally off point. It's just sort of justifying my framework that the younger a religious tradition is, the better it is at fighting fertility collapse.And then the question can be why. I actually came up with this idea when talking with one of our fans. And he responded, and I think very accurately they're newer updates on the software. Like, of course they have better bug fixes.Simone Collins: Well, but then the larger point I'm making is we admire that. And the reason why we are bothering to do something different and choosing to try something different is that we are able to contribute some marginal.Additional role of the dice for civilization that we would not be contributing. Were we to join an extant religion. So that's 1 of the reasons why we're putting these tracks out there. Why we're being so transparent about it and [00:25:00] why we're bothering with this in the 1st place. We wouldn't really. be giving civilization and or religions and or intergenerational and durable cultures another role of the dice if we just joined an existing one and didn't do anything to change it but those who tried to make new religions or to do spin offs of existing religions like what you just described to make them intergenerational and durable are capable of interstellar travel then you are adding a marginal additional chance or role of the dice for that religion and for humanity in generalMalcolm Collins: Oh, and this is something I should also mention.If you look at the very highest fertility communities, you don't just have the Jews, you also got the Amish. The Amish are actually a fairly young religion as well. Yeah. Which I think a lot of people don't know. There's another really new Christian community that's similar to the Amish. I'll have to find their name in editing, but they're really interesting and they're ultra high fertility.They're like Amish, they're completely collectivist communities and completely communist in the way they structure their communities. But they are not as. Banning of technology. [00:26:00] So they're much more strict about their internal communism. And I think they're a form of Anabaptist, but they're much less strict in their technology banning.Yeah. Interesting.The group I am thinking of is called the Bruderhof and they would not agree with my framing them as communist. But that is the word that best describes their lifestyle to your average individual. I showed it to my wife, Roxanne, and she said, yeah, that's a stupid title. So, I changed it. Yeah, I guess, we are Americans, so we don't like being told.We don't like being told what the remedy is. I took issue with the word communism in the Christian context because I think communism directly implies a political construct, and as Christians, um, how we live out our faith cannot be political at all, because I don't think Jesus's commands were political.And ultimately, living in community is [00:27:00] not about how it's constructed, it's about Trying to be true to Jesus teachings and commands. So, Rich, that was my initial reaction, was that communism is a word that shouldn't even be used in this book, let alone in the Christian context.Malcolm Collins: Which is probably you dig into the communities. They actually seem really dope. Like I, I, they, the people in them seem really happy, very full of life. And they get a lot of criticism from outsiders because the men dress like Modern men, but the women dress actually in outfits, not dissimilar from yours.And a lot of people look at that and they're like, why are women forced to dress this way? And I've seen interviews with women and they're like, well, you know, if you're trying to be as inexpensive as possible and, and you use dirty clothes, this is actually practical, which is funny that we have convergently come to the same answer that I dress like a much more modern man and you dress like a historic woman and a lot of people are surprised by that because a lot of women's fashion is [00:28:00] really.Non utility based. Yeah. It should come as no surprise that throwing out all one's ancestral traditions, traditions, which, which one's ancestors evolved will have voluminous deleterious effects on the individual. It should also come as no surprise that clinging dogmatically to cultural traditions that evolved was in and were optimized fornot just a pre internet, but a pre industrial world will have disastrous consequences for the group. The only way to ensure ancestral traditions work as intended without updating them for the age of technology, is to include within them a mandate for a pre industrial lifestyle. Sorry, there was a concept here I wanted to go into, butoh, it was another hypothesis for why the newer religions might be doing better. It might be because religions sort of deteriorate over time. This is the hypothesis we had when we were writing the pragmatist guide to crafting religion, is that religions start in an ultra hard state and they deteriorate as they get older [00:29:00] because of a sort of social forces around them, chipping away at them and trying to do things easier and easier and easier.Simone Collins: Mm hmm. And he argued that There were some interesting evolved innovations like the Catholic church having Essentially spin off factions that got really extreme and then slowly reintegrated, thereby keeping the church moreMalcolm Collins: than it otherwise would be healthier. Like they basically spun off little like, yeah, like little departments, which is what the orders were.And then the orders would reintegrate into the central. Bureaucracy. And if you study the history of Catholic orders you know, they'd often start like as sort of like radical religious extremists with new ideas that lived like ultra austerely. And then they become wealthier and wealthier and wealthier and end up becoming like indolent and falling apart as being the cool place that the hardcore people want to go.Simone Collins: Yeah. But it, it may have benefited the church overall thereby countering this dynamic that you described. So I thought that was interesting.Malcolm Collins: This is why. The only [00:30:00] groups that seem to show durable resistance to fertility collapse are those that either ban their members from engaging with technology or have social practices that lower the economic potential of their adherence.What is concerning about these groups is that they are often wildly xenophobic, believing that eventually everyone on earth must believe what they believe. In fact, not a single religious group in the world within a developed country has yet been able to stay durably above all of this. The replacement rate while being economically productive and engaging with technology, except arguably the Israeli Jews, some adherence of traditional religions, assume that they can use their technophobic members to generate a large population that can subsequently.Be converted to technophilia. So this is what we often get was like you know, ultra her ready populations and stuff like that. They're like, okay, yes. There's a portion of the community that like doesn't work. And but they're, but they're super high fertility and that these people can then be converted by mainstream Jewish society.And I'm [00:31:00] like, I'm sorry. Like I've looked at the stats and this just doesn't seem to be happening. The productive, like the ultra productive Jewish society, which ends up Sometimes funding the Haredi movements are the descendants of people who didn't join those movements. They're not spinoffs of those movements.And it should make obvious sense as to why this is the case what I'll get into here.This strategy doesn't work for two reasons. The first, an obvious one, is that, Is the enormous dysgenic effects it will have on their population, culturally sterilizing the economically productive members of a group is not a winning formula. The second is that subgroups who's in these communities that disengage with technology.More extremely will outcompete those that do not. This can be seen clearly in Amish populations where the rate of cell phone use correlates with their fertility rate. And this is actually a link to study here through cultural evolution that the technophobic factions will eventually dominate the others, except for iterations that totally culturally and genetically isolate [00:32:00] themselves.Now this point is actually sometimes missed by people or they don't fully understand like how severe a problem it is. So if it turns out that you can use technophobia to increase your fertility rates, that is fine. If what that caused was like a, you know, you go through for some level of technophobia and then you get a big jump in fertility rates.Right, right, right.Simone Collins: But it's not that it's not that it's not like if you reduce hours of, of screen time, like by 20%, then you get a certain percentage increase.Malcolm Collins: No, no, no. It is like that. You do get a certain percentage increase.Simone Collins: No, I thought it was basically access at all. That's when it starts to fall apart.If there's any access whatsoever. No,Malcolm Collins: no. So you get the most extreme responses at the extreme levels, but it is a linear increase. That's the problem. It's not a tiered increase. So. If it was a [00:33:00] tiered increase, there were optimums you could choose to strive for. So think of something like screen time, right?If it turned out that screen time had both a linear and somewhat logarithmic or exponential effect on something like IQ, then you would, well, the cultural groups that always had zero screen time, this is a bit of a bad example. Okay. Screen time doesn't really work for this. I have to, Do you just technological access?So technological access, if it had a tiered impact, there would be optimums you could strive for. By that, what I mean is you could say, well, we'll engage with some level of technology. Like we'll still have cell phones. We'll still have computers, but we'll limit access to them or something like that.Right? Like what the Mennonite groups do. And, and some Amish populations do. The problem is, is this doesn't work. If you have some access to this technology and you limit access to it in some portions of your group Just completely ban access. They're going to [00:34:00] outbreed the portions that just limit access at like a factor of three.It's not like a small factor. It's an exponential effect within these communities. And you can clearly see this from the statistics. Well, this creates a big problem. If what you're expecting is that you're going to get spin off from the extreme technophobic groups. You know, you're like, okay. Well, then some of the technophobic groups, kids will be of this like moderately technologically engaged community.So consider something like Amish, right? Or the Mennonite community, right? So you'll have some people who are born into these ultra Amish families, but who Then grow up, but then you cell phones, but still consider themselves in a Baptist, right? And they're more economically productive than the individuals who don't write and economically and technologically productive.But I say economically productive. I mean, they contribute more to the global economy. Like, they're able to engage in industrialized farming, for example, and stuff like that. Right? Well, the problem is, is that if it turns out that always these groups that are more [00:35:00] technologically engaged have dramatically lower fertility rates than the individuals who don't was in these communities, then you're getting a genetic selection effect, which means intergenerationally, these groups are going to spit out fewer and fewer and fewer of these.Economically engaged individuals and so genetically these groups are going to go into a death spiral pretty much immediately. And this is a problem with not a death spiral in terms of like, they're not going to go extinct, right? That that's that's not what's going to happen to them, but they're certainly not going to become.Members of the space faring group of humanity, you know, they're not going to join those populations that end up taking us to the stars and make up the vast majority of future humans.Simone Collins: Well, they're very unlikely to have any sort of impact on society. They're very unlikely to run the government or administer services or really do anything aside from at best be some kind of contractor of larger, more technical like [00:36:00] forces that Builds roads or does, you know, execute some very, very small things, not under their own direction though.Yeah,Malcolm Collins: well, actually I'd push back. They do often end up running governments when they get to high enough population levels. And I think that if I'm going to get a little spicy here, this is one of the problems that Israel ran into. Is that, That they started electing individuals from these communities that, you know, have like extremely high unemployment and stuff like that when they were electing their ultra Orthodox members to, to parliament.And that led to a collapse of their intelligence apparatuses. And, and, and not just like, like their intelligence is still partially working, but the government. Was too incompetent to listen to it. And that's what allowed these attacks to happen in Israel. This is like the mainstream interpretation. If you don't assume that the attacks were, because it's insane that they could have missed these attacks coming, you know, there was large scale movement in the country beforehand.You could say that maybe they intentionally let them happen because they wanted to, to go ahead with this, but, but Occam's razor, like if I look at all the data, it appears that there [00:37:00] was just a level of incompetence. Induced by members of these communities, , taking, you know, too much control within the government and, and not focus on competence and industry and competence and industry doesn't mean like just productivity.It means like a base level of competent operation. And that's not what these groups had any selective pressures around.Simone Collins: At least not in the realms that we, that realms relevant to government surveillance, et cetera. Yeah, for high levels of competence in their own eyes,Malcolm Collins: but that's going to happen in the United States.That's going to happen in other countries as well.Nope, just in case, anyone's going to say, oh, you can't say that that's. anti-Jewish or something it's not, this is the mainstream position right now of people who are experts on these types of topics, , and who are willing to speak out against dominant narratives.If you would like to hear somebody else's take on this here is Peter Xeljanz Probably the most famous strategists in the world right [00:38:00] now. How did the Israelis not know? Israel supposedly is the gold standard for intelligence and there aren't a lot of things in the area that honestly they need to worry about all that much. , this is the one, the one, THE ONE thing that the Israelis have always been obsessed about.That's where all of their microphones are pointed and so the fact that they missed this is just mind boggling. Because there were hundreds of fighters involved. Uh, dozens of vehicles using six different transport options, and the Israelis missed it all, Part of its demographic the Israelis have some laws that protect basically people who commit themselves to Judaism So if you're studying to become a religious scholar and all you do is study the Torah You don't have to pay taxes And you don't have to serve in the military.And that means, uh, that you can have lots of kids and don't have to pay for them, which, you know, is encourages people to have a lot of kids. Uh, and that means somewhere between 10 and 30 percent of the population based on where you draw the line of the population basically doesn't work, but can [00:39:00] still.And think of that relative you have who's on disability insurance, um, and doesn't work and just sits in his lazy boy all day and b*****s about how people are screwing up the world. And they are a rising demographic because of population. growth, uh, I mean their demographic. And that means that they have been the kingmaker in any number of governments, uh, in recent decades.And they are a strong, strong minority, uh, within the Israeli system. And there's no way to get rid of that. , if you're going to have a political system like this, you want to have a floor so that the real whack jobs don't get into government. In Israel, there really isn't one functionally because they don't want to silence anyone's voices.So you have this whole rainbow. of whack job right wing parties. Right wing's probably not the right term, let's just call them religious fundamentalist parties, who are supporting the current government. Uh, and they're not very good at what they do because they're coming from a stock of people that doesn't value [00:40:00] secular education at all.People who are absolutely mind numbingly incompetent, but have very firm ideas on how the world should work. Uh, and they're the ones who are now. Having to explain how they have presided over the greatest intelligence debacle in the world in the last 50 years.Malcolm Collins: I mean, keep in mind, this is not a just a problem was in Israel. It's just that Israel is the first country to see the consequences of this because they like, like Judaism, more broadly, as we talk about is one of the most advanced religions from a pronatalist sophistication standpoint, it's better at resisting the virus and it's better at spitting off these high fertility communities.So it's, it makes sense that they sort of went through this or are going through this transition before other countries, but it is also the reason why. As much as we respect Judaism, we have some trepidation about, like, we use it as a backup religion for our kids, as we mentioned, like, like, don't go to the urban monoculture if you don't believe what we believe, go to [00:41:00] Judaism at least.But you know, we're not choosing it as a first choice because there's definitely challenges that the Jewish community needs to overcome that I don't see a clear path for them to overcome rightSimone Collins: now. Well, and that our kids wouldn't be well positioned. To help with,Malcolm Collins: so, yeah, because they'd be sort of newcomers in the community.Simone Collins: Yeah. Like if, if we had, you know, if you are in one of these religions and you are on the inside, your time is better spent trying to future proof that religion because you have the clout and the cred to be able toMalcolm Collins: do so. Yeah. But as a convert, it makes no sense. Yeah. When it's the same with something like Catholics, like Catholics are like, Oh, you have a lot of problems with the things we do.And I'm like, yeah, but I love Catholicism. It's cool. Like, look at all these don't, don't, you know, I'm, I'm not out, I'm, I, I wouldn't have my kids joined the faith, but I really respect the faith as a cultural system. And if you were born into it, and if you associate with it, then work on improving it and, and [00:42:00] building sons who can be, you know, great preachers.Yeah,Simone Collins: exactly. Absolutely.People often ask, why are you guys so obsessed with Israel in South Korea? and. , as, as sort of people who are running the perinatal community and the answer as to why we're so critically focused on these two communities is they showcase two different futures for human civilization. And they give us a hint of what works, what doesn't work in, what we need to prep for in the case of South Korea, what we're looking at is what happens to the groups in the population that just do nothing. Significant or that works to fight population clubs. I E they end up focusing all of their efforts on population collapse, around things like government handouts, , in government financial incentives, which Korea has spent something like 280. billion in just the last 16 years. which as we constantly scream from the rooftops does [00:43:00] not work. This has been well studied. The other Israel. They have largely, you could almost say adopted this strategy that we plan to adopt ourselves. Which is a fairly new religious movement, , that is highly resistant to fertility collapse. , .And that otherwise works well alongside. Technologically productive population groups. And is otherwise inclusive of those groups. And, and in that sense, pluralistic, , Yet, they are still having massive, massive problems. And they are the same problems that if we do everything right, and the countries and populations that do almost everything right, are going to eventually be facing themselves. For us to steer around these problems, we need to study and understand the difficulties that Israel is having right now.And the Jewish people are having right now. To avoid [00:44:00] those difficulties ourselves. They are not having these problems because they are incompetent or because they made some sort of a wrong move. The problems that they are facing are the problems that anyone runs into when they play almost all of their cards.Exactly. Right. And that's why they're so critical, even more critical to understand. Then Korea, because there, what happens if we do it right? And. The key thing that we sort of take away from it is you have to have very, very, very strict co guards. Against. , mystical world pools, which is one of the things we talk about in track three.And it's one of the reasons why we are so, so, so, so, so anti mystic. , and, , you need to have really strict guards. Against anyone who achieves a high level of religious. Influence, but is otherwise [00:45:00] non-industrially productive, which is why. And I don't know, we've gone over this in any of the tracks yet, but we have strict prohibitions. On preachers that use preaching as their primary source of income.You need to show that you can be industrially and scientifically efficacious before you can rise as a preacher. Otherwise, individuals who are able to spend all their time preaching are always going to out-compete within a religious hierarchy, individuals who have to split their time and it leads to this. These sort of incompetent spirals, which can cause huge, huge, huge problems.And I should point out when I say incompetent spirals, I don't mean in competent spirals from the perspective of like, like these, , people who reached these really high levels of status was in a RIT communities. They are not stupid people. They are people who have focused their entire competence on Sophos, read their entire [00:46:00] lives. , because that was what was rewarded.It was in their communities. , and that is what allowed them to achieve these positions of high status. But extreme level of sophistication was in Sophic arguments, but no industrial specialization, no scientific specialization. This leads to very bad decisions being made at the societal level. , and, and bureaucratic level, which can lead to catastrophic failures, like the intelligence failure that led up to the Gaza attack.Malcolm Collins: This is the crux of why we are raising our kids in a new religious system. It is also why we encourage others to attempt to edit their pre industrial systems with practices that will make them competitive in an age of AI and the internet. All religious traditions evolve. The drastic social and technological changes that pose new threats, simply require that such evolution happens faster, which is actually what I was just saying.The genetic game we are playing is different from the one our ancestors played. [00:47:00] Historically, if a group had cultural practices that led them to select for higher economic and technological productivity in breeding partners, males from that group would regularly outbreed with females from neighboring groups.This had the effect of reducing genetic differentiation. between geographically adjacent groups. The advent of our near universally enforced child support system naturally leads to the genetic isolation of high earning technophilic groups with the capacity for self control. Outbreeding is heavily punished by the state.This is something we've talked about in other videos, but it's worth understanding. Historically, If the like wealthy elite in your society had some sort of eugenic effect, and by that what I mean, like they were selecting for IQ or productivity, members from males, members from that community were able to breed with many of the surrounding females who were unfaithful to their husbands, which was actually quite common in a historic contexthowever, Child support makes this incredibly unlikely to [00:48:00] happen within our society at any sort of large level, because if you are wealthy or economically productive in any sense, you are sort of a target for individuals. And so it doesn't make sense to breed with anyone outside of your ultra wealthy community.Which leads to more genetic isolation of different groups in our society. As a result of this, any genetic IQ advantage will be amplified much faster than would have historically been the case. This is definitely true for groups that practice polygenic selection and have arranged marriage protocols in place.Oh, that seems harsh, doesn't it? In the words of one of my favorite movies,You don't approve. Well, too bad. We're in this for the species, boys and girls. It's simple numbers. They have more.Malcolm Collins: And this is true when we're talking about these technophobic, xenophobic populations. They will outnumber us a hundred thousand to one in any realistic future that we're looking at.The question is, can AI give us the edge if they [00:49:00] decide to kill us? And I suspect so. AI and genetics, at least.The old ways have failed us. Many bemoan the urban monoculture whose adherents are known for their cencorus quote unquote woke behavior. As threatening as the urban monoculture may be, when it breaks, we will be facing an infinitely more threatening flood of xenophobic and technophobic, and religious extremists who will drag our species back to the Stone Age if given a chance.This flood will come from groups as varied as Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists, some of whose adherents maintain a high fertility rate by using culturally induced poverty to simulate pre industrial environments among their members while maintaining cultural isolation through intense cultural xenophobia.The pronatalist movement is a beacon for those few humans left who are willing to do what makes us human. Innovate, improve, and band together so we can mount a real defense. God willing, once the wave passes, the movement will be the seed that [00:50:00] grows into a vast interstellar human empire.Finally, you may be asking, quote, but why religion? Why not just a few cultural tweaks? End quote. Even if it's entirely secular, a suite of intergenerationally durable cultural perspectives and practices that differ strikingly from those of the society around it will be called a religion by the dominant cultural group.If my descendants think and perceive the world in a manner that differs from the thought processes and worldviews of the dominant cultural group, calling them something other than a religious minority is merely a semantic quibble, and our descendants do need to think differently if we want them to survive.Any thoughts?Simone Collins: This is our stance. This is why we're doing what we're doing.Malcolm Collins: Be one of many experimental cultures designed to combat fertility collapse. Our unique religion is meant to be a hypothesis among many, because that is all we are doing, testing a hypothesis. You can riff on ours or riff on the traditions of your [00:51:00] ancestors, but raising your children in the urban monoculture with unmodified ancestral traditions is like asking them to charge a Gatling gun with spears. Our goal is not to create a new religion, but rather a coalition of them that can share cultural resources and rendered useless in wider society like marriage markets.If you want to join our network, please reach out. We are building both a school system and we'll be doing yearly summer camps when our kids are old enough to socialize with like minded peers. And this is like a really interesting point here. A lot of people are like, well, I disagree with what you say in the tracks and we're like, that's fine.Like we, we are totally open to that. We are one belief system among many. And then some people are like, well, These tracks contrast with traditional systems. And it's like, yes, if they didn't, then they wouldn't be a new system. We are trying something new because other people are trying the older things.But we have no animosity. Like, you aren't [00:52:00] part of the pronatalist movement just because you differ from us theologically. We believe that theological differences are a thing of existential value in terms of cultural solutions. I don't know if you have thoughts, Simone. No, ISimone Collins: mean, we're of the same mind on this.Malcolm Collins: And if you are interested in the specific religion of our family, we lay it out in a subset piece titled Track 1, Building an Abrahamic Faith, Optimize for Interstellar Empires. In short, we teach our kids that whatever man becomes in a million years or so will conceptually be closer to To what humans today would think of as a god than a human, this entity is so advanced that it exists outside of time as we understand it, and thus, from the perspective of the entity, it is guiding us to reunite with it.God is the ultimate manifestation of human potentiality, and the good is defined by actions that expand human potentiality. We believe this is the entity, the Abrahamic traditions. were revelations of and new [00:53:00] revelations are given to man when he has the capacity to understand them. Hence, we have a religious mandate to expand that capacity through both genetic and synthetic means.Ours can be thought of as almost an Abrahamic E/Acc religious system. And then there was a footnote in that last paragraph. When we say the Abrahamic tradition, we mean God has always done his best attempt to convey truth to man, but man of the past, it was not yet sophisticated enough to fully understand that truce.The story of Jesus's life was to teach us that God's son as a man must be martyred to sanctify mankind. Only through generational martyrdom can God's son, representing all of us, but also God, because we will eventually become God, remove mankind's flaws that prevent us from joining with God. Of course, this is a concept that people during the life of Christ would have been incapable of grasping, so when explained to them, it came out as a convoluted plan for God to turn himself into man, [00:54:00] which man would need to unjustly kill in order for God to forgive man.But God told us that he was not the type of entity to demand a father sacrifice his son to appease him in the story of Abraham. But in the story, he also told us that we, his followers, would believe he was that kind of entity,But follow his word regardless until it could be revealed. He is not. That is it. That's the piece. It was sort of the foundation to this and it's sort of the foundation to, you know, the question of why, why are we doing all this? What's the idea here?Simone Collins: And I guess the TLDR is we want to create an intergenerationally durable culture that is also capable of very significant technological advancement to the extent that we would want to see this group of people get off earth and go beyond.Malcolm Collins: Right? Yeah, that's the idea. And I think it's possible. And I, I, I think [00:55:00] people see what we're doing as a fool's errand. And I really don't see it that way. I mean, I think the probability of this working out is a good 18, 23%. Which a lot of people are like, that's an insanely low, it's not an insanely low number.That'sSimone Collins: an insanely high number that is extremely aggressive. So I think, yeah, you know, God speed to us,Malcolm Collins: please. Yeah. Well, and, and, and, you know, Building a denomination, it's not really a religion because it's more of an Abrahamic denomination because it follows the old Abrahamic traditions that elevates the traditional systems.Well, in the context of a world that now has internet and AI and all sorts of advancements that people historically couldn't even imagine. I suspect it'll be a lot more robust than people imagine.Simone Collins: Yeah, I mean, I guess a lot of it depends on how robust we're going to be able to make this and IMalcolm Collins: mean, I think the final question I have for you is you, you sort of got all this sprung on you.You know, I've [00:56:00] seen like the girl defined videos recently. One of their husbands came out as an atheist. No, wait, what?Simone Collins: What? Oh my God. I've been doing way too much work and not enough fun. I cannot believe I missed out on that. Seriously. Which one? I don't remember. The one who does the sex courses, her husband, the one who I think the other one, Oh, he was a little more off camera.Malcolm Collins: So, yeah. And they, she got over it very well. I mean, it's very hard. Cause she was like, this is not what I married. Like she doesn't say that I understand that you think. Thought you were marrying something else. And I had these questions even when we were getting married and I should have been more forthcoming and they're keeping their marriage together and they, they seem to be very emotionally healthy in the way they're dealing with it.But when you married me, I mean, you married a staunch atheist and all of these religions feelSimone Collins: like an atheist because I associated people with more traditional values. That is to say, wants to have a family who radical is being sort of it's funnyMalcolm Collins: you mentioned this because even when we were doing our search [00:57:00] fund, people thought we were religious extremists to the extent that they wouldn't sell to us because of that.They're like, I would sell to you guys, but you appear to be like the whole Mormon thing is really creepy to me. They thought we were extremist Mormons. Yeah. And I'm like, we are not Mormons. And he was very surprised by that.Simone Collins: I forgot about that, but that happened a couple of times.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, because we're so dedicated to this value system, it might be that we've always, like, but I spring these ideas on you and you're always like, yeah, that makes sense.Like I'm springing insane ideas on you. Yeah,Simone Collins: but we're very mimetically aligned and it, none of this seems as a surprise to me because remember, let's, let's just show how little this is surprising, how, how little your faith has changed. From the get go on our first date, after saying that you weren't looking to date, you were looking for a wife and you expected to find her at Stanford, you proceeded to lay out your entire world philosophy and your goal for your life and for the human, [00:58:00] for humankind.And it was to get humans off planet. It was to. Make sure that humans were still capable of innovating and iterating and doing more and overcoming themselves and going beyond the limits of, of our bodies, our minds and the earth. And here you are now trying to create not just technology or systems for that.And certainly not just for our own family, but some kind of framework that can enable larger groups of people to do this. I think it's pretty cool.Malcolm Collins: I think this is why we haven't had any conflict in regards to all this theology stuff. Because I am optimizing it all around that original goal that you signed off on.And when I come to the theological beliefs, I never come to them without saying, but this is also what's in the best interest of, you know, humanity's flourishing. Yeah,Simone Collins: everything we've done has always been like that. Our choice around children, jobs extracurriculars, everything has been around that. [00:59:00] So none of this is inconsistent or surprising.I could see it. Someone's change of religion being inconsistent or surprising to someone when their core values appear to be changing or their core belief structures or their end goal for humanity or themselves, but nothing has changed for you. You're very consistent. So yeah, and this isMalcolm Collins: like, Oh, I'm afraid that you're going to spend off into crazy town when I watch these.And it's like, At least for me.Simone Collins: He was in Crazy Town. He was always inMalcolm Collins: Crazy Town. I was always in Crazy Town. No, but I'm not like like, I am still very much within the bowling lane. You know, with kids, they, they put the things in the gutters of the bowling lane so the ball can't fall in the gutters. The bumpers.The bumpers, you know. Well, not with kids.Simone Collins: I suck atMalcolm Collins: bowling. But yeah. There's way bigger bumpers in the lanes of my consciousness than people think. Like everything I'm doing is just in, in terms of the best interests of my kids. Yeah. And that is the guiding force behind [01:00:00] all of this. For me at least, butSimone Collins: anyway.I mean, I don't know. It's, it's not just your kids. It's your, it's your life philosophy. It's, it's, it's, I mean, your kid and your kids are part of that. And you're, you deeply love your kids. It's not like your kids are kind of instrumental projects or anything, but All of this is in an effort to serve a very consistent and quite logical, in my view, goal for humanity, which includes yourself.Malcolm Collins: Well, I also think, you know, if people are afraid about things going off the rails here, one thing that really prevents that to some extent is even in the very earliest religious videos we've done on our family's religion, it's the idea that it's sinful for anyone to take money for religious teachings.So I can't be doing this for money. Or I'd have to take a massively hypocritical position. And I'm certainly not doing this for sex, which a lot of cult leaders are doing. YouSimone Collins: think they, do you think they're actually doing it for sex or [01:01:00] do you think that that's just, once they be, they, they obtain power and become kind of corrupted by it, then they just.Start using it for sex.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, I suppose they have some sort of internal drive to want to do something and then they can use their power and the fact that they're seen as some sort of denominational or religious leader to affirm their internal desires, which is really different from what we're doing.It's, it's much more closer to someone like The Spinoza using his religious teachings to become like a sex mania like it's not gonna happen like It's comical in a religious in a historic context or Maimonides or like, you know Or or john calvin, you know, being like it was john calvin He's saying some pretty heretical things here.Is he gonna end up becoming a sex maniac? It's like no No, very clearly not.Simone Collins: Yeah, I think we're okay I think we're okay.Malcolm Collins: I love you to death, Simone. You [01:02:00] are the perfect woman and I am just so lucky to be married to you given how understanding you are of my crazies.Simone Collins: I'm the one who is lucky and I love these conversations.I savor them. And I'm really glad that you are going for this because people do think it's weird and you're not getting any, you know, pat on the back for it. And in fact, it's a lot of work as trying to work out holidays for our kids, us trying to work out how to best communicate things.Malcolm Collins: And taking positions that are sometimes antagonistic with communities that would otherwise accept us.Simone Collins: Yeah, which is, you know, tough because you, you can, okay, we don't really feel a lot of desire to conform, but one can imagine how nice it might be to be. Accepted and not frozen out by people all the time.Malcolm Collins: So yes, yes to just be like oh no just, you know, like, with idolatry, just believe the parts of the Bible that you like.You know, ignore everything that conflicts with your traditions. [01:03:00] Anyway, I love you, Simone. I love you, too. Get full access to Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm at basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In this explosive episode, Malcolm and Simone dive deep into the ongoing controversy surrounding Sweet Baby Inc, a company hired to make video games more "woke." The scandal, dubbed "Gamergate 2.0" by some, has reignited the debate about the influence of progressive ideology in the gaming industry.Malcolm breaks down the origins of the controversy, which began when a small group on Steam decided to track the games that Sweet Baby Inc had worked on. In response, the company attempted to get the Steam accounts of those involved shut down, effectively taking away their purchased games. This move backfired, causing the group to grow exponentially in what is known as the "Streisand Effect."The discussion also delves into the racist and misandrist tweets of the woman running Sweet Baby Inc, who has expressed disgust at straight white people and even claimed to have nightmares about being a white male gamer. Malcolm and Simone argue that this blatant racism and the company's attempts to silence critics demonstrate which group truly holds power in the current cultural landscape.Simone highlights the disconnect between the ideologies of those working in marketing departments and the actual demographics of their target audiences, leading to a fundamental misunderstanding of what consumers want. The pair also discuss the manipulation of crime statistics and the suppression of data that could potentially be used to criticize certain protected groups.As the conversation progresses, Malcolm and Simone explore the broader implications of the Sweet Baby Inc controversy, arguing that it is indicative of a larger problem of institutional racism and discrimination against straight white males within progressive circles. They assert that now is the time for people to take a stand against this increasingly blatant bigotry and call for a return to evidence-based decision-making in both marketing and politics.Simone Collins: [00:00:00] and that's what came up with GamerGate. It wasn't necessarily that she, you know, slept her way through her career.It was that she slept her way through her career, acted like she didn't. And this is also an opportunity that. That women take advantage of a lot and then pretend that they're victimized for it. Whereas men would love to have that chance. They would love to have that chance.You can access these databases, but you have to give these big reports on exactly what you're going to study and why what you're studying isn't going to hurt anyone's feelings.Malcolm Collins: Well, not just feelings. It wouldn't care if it hurt white people's feelings.Simone Collins: If it hurt straight people's feelings.Sorry, white people aren't people. Anybody who matters. Anyone who's really human. Yes,Malcolm Collins: she was. What are you thinking? Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to say something so silly and so stupid. Human people people, not, you know. Yeah,Would you like to know more?Simone Collins: No, I need to, you said drama and that sounded fun. And I want toMalcolm Collins: talk about the Sweet Baby Inc drama. So I was talking to the fan today, right? And they were like, Hey, you should [00:01:00] do more like topical issues and gaming and stuff like that. Because you seem to really like gaming. And I was like, I do really like gaming.Why haven't I been covering gaming politics? What's wrong with you, Malcolm? And so there's a Event that's going on right now in the gaming space that is sort of being called Gamergate 2 or that's what Celeste is trying to make it. So we're going to go over Gamergate, we're going to go over Sweet Baby Inc, but I want to make this broader than just video game.So we're going to start with a URL that I sent you onSimone Collins: WhatsApp. Alright, I'm taking a look at it. It is Robbie Starbuck on Twitter. This is wild. Someone went through the entire . Texas sex offender registry and found that the government data is insanely wrong. Oh no. In government data, it says 40 percent of offenders are white, but after removing all blacks and Hispanics listed as white, it drops to 28%.This is happening with all kinds of crimes. So our stats grossly undercount all of the crimes committed by blacks and Hispanics while over counting the whites. [00:02:00] All of the over counting happens only for white people. Why? Before you call me racist, I'm Hispanic. I'm just a Hispanic that believes that it's important to have the real stats that tell us the real story of what's going wrong.Without that, we can't fix it effectively. We need to force states to fix their crime stats so we can get to the truth. Oh, Lord Almighty.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I also want you to scroll down and see like how big of a problem this is.Simone Collins: Isn't Twitter great? Un un. Beneath him is, is someone who named their Twitter account unbiased crime report, and they downloaded the entire DA database. But now they're querying it. It's just so cool. I love that. Okay. Hold on. Oh, Elon Musk tweeted on this.Okay. So it's clearly going viral .This is a huge problem and not just in Texas says Meg Ultra oh God, there's all these people who clearly are not white who are listed as white.Malcolm Collins: So it's basically a bunch of obviously black people who are being listed as white in crime statistics.And this is what we're about to [00:03:00] go to with the Sweet Baby Inc. controversy here. And I wanted to start out with this because this is, you know, something related that a lot of people aren't seeing. There is a large scale falsification of reality. And people are seeing it and they are seeing the powers that be in this world.are lying to them and manipulating them. AndSimone Collins: what is going on there? Like is someone, do you think going in post hoc? I mean, I don't imagine police departments are marking offenders asMalcolm Collins: white. Yes, I believe they are because they're afraid they need to get their stats good. So a police department needs to make it look like they're not over arresting black people or something like that.So they're just labeling them as white, which is creating incorrect crimeSimone Collins: statistics. Well, then does that also mean, you know, in the less flattering direction? That the stats that indicate that police violence against. White people isn't as high as we had thought.Malcolm Collins: Maybe, but the point being, I'm sure [00:04:00] if it went in the other direction in terms of stuff like violence, leftist groups would figure this out because they are very interested in digging for those forms of truth that support what they, they've got a whole government and university departments dedicated to that.Okay. And this Sweet Baby Inc thing becomes important because before I go too far into it Okay. Something I want to point out is a Department of Homeland Security funded, take this just put out a Google Doc demanding that game companies denounce Gamergate 2. So, a government funded entity, your tax dollars are going to defend this kind of brainwashing.Simone Collins: What is Gamergate 2? What is Gamergate the sequel?Malcolm Collins: Do you know what Gamergate 1 is, by the way? I don't know, I'm sortSimone Collins: of wondering. Yeah, I, okay, so if I'm broadly summarizing it, tell me if I'm right or wrong. It sort of came out when a female journalist who reviewed games turned out to have apparently slept her way through a lot of her career and people criticized her forMalcolm Collins: that.[00:05:00] Yes, there's a five guys incident. Well, not people. It was an ex boyfriend criticized her for that on 4chan. It went viral but it became the epitome of and the thing about GamerGate 1 is it really was undefensible. Like, if you went through her positions, They were genuinely undefensible. This is somebody who had obviously and transparently slept with a number of the people who she was writing articles about and had these ridiculous woke opinions on just about everything.Like her entire career was fabricated and achieved with sleeping with people. And, and that the left saw this as okay, as something worth defending And this reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from you is. Where we were at this secret society conference and. One person there was like, Oh yeah.When I heard it wasSimone Collins: literally, we were sitting on a panel of. actors, like famous actors who had been in movies that you have seen talking about Me Too, because this was back when Me Too was a big issue. And it was, I think, three women and then one [00:06:00] well known actor. AndMalcolm Collins: If there's anything more emblematic than that, three nobody female actors and one well known maleSimone Collins: actor.Classic. And then there's just this one moment after they complained about a whole bunch of vague stuff, but nothing had actually happened to them. Where he was like, Well, I mean, you know, I, I wish I could sleep with someone to get ahead, like, He, like, really wished that he, like, it would be so much easier if he could just be a little slutty and get a role.You know, like, he had to, he couldn't do that. And he, like, wistfully was like, I, I, I would like to be me too, you know, please, me too,Malcolm Collins: me too, me too, use me to get ahead. I will take that. I thinkSimone Collins: that that was the big, and that's what came up with GamerGate. It wasn't necessarily that she, you know, slept her way through her career.It was that she slept her way through her career, acted like she didn't. And this is also an opportunity that. That women take advantage [00:07:00] of a lot and then pretend that they're victimized for it. Whereas men would love to have that chance. They would love to have that chance. Yeah,Malcolm Collins: and, and, and that was the thing.So, so Gamergate one completely undefensible, but the left just like bit it and ran with it like a crazy and, and, and, and gamer media back then had already gone super, super woke and was like, not so Gamergate two, which is interesting because the left has chosen Gamergate two as the title for this. Like they think they won Gamergate.They lost Gamergate. The gamer community basically permanently turned against the left, and now is seen as a conservative hobby. Like, what, why would you, like, why would you want a rematch? And then why would youSimone Collins: choose this? Well, but wait, what is Gamergate 2? We justMalcolm Collins: talked about Gamergate. I'm gonna talk about Sweet Baby Inc.So Sweet Baby Inc. This controversy, so I'll sort of go over it. So they are a Organization that you could hire to help make your games more woke. No.Simone Collins: No. Yes,Malcolm Collins: so basically you would [00:08:00] hireSimone Collins: this group So it's literally put a chick in it and make her gay and lame, ink?Is there a problem, people? No problem at all, Mrs. Kennedy. We were just discussing, uh, ideas of what to do with the new Prince Eric movie. Put a ticket in it and make her gay! Linguine and clam sauce. Uh, excuse me, I believe I asked you to put a chick in this and make her gay. Uh, yes, the chef was a little confused what you meant by that.It means put a chick in the linguine and make her f*****g gay! It's lame!Simone Collins: Like that isMalcolm Collins: Basically that. So, when you were making a game, you would hire this team and they would have a lot of say.Like, they would be key writers on games and stuff like that. And, so of course, one group decided and, and hold on, I, I should start with how racist the woman who runs this group is, and how reprehensible they are. Because you might be thinking, oh, they're, they're not that [00:09:00] bad.Simone Collins: Oh, come on, everyone who Ends up making a living off of this, tendsMalcolm Collins: to be pretty bad.So she says things like, you can't be racist to white people.Simone Collins: That's classic, yeah. Yeah, because youMalcolm Collins: can't, obviously. She, oh, here are some tweets of hers. I usually get grossed out when straight white people kiss. Had a nightmare that I was a white male gamer. So, imagine, and people are like, Oh, you can't just flip the things.You can't be like, I had a nightmare that I was a black male gamer. And, and people are like, Oh, you can't equivolate those two things. And it's like, no, no, no. The problem with racism is that it dehumanizes groups of people. You are dehumanizing groups of people. And the fact that you feel safe dehumanizing a group of people shows you which group hasSimone Collins: power.Racism as a problem was never specific to black people. It's not like when we're like, oh, slavery was bad. We're like, yeah, but it would have been okay if it was [00:10:00] white people.It is a group in power, lording that power over a group without power and dehumanizing the group that has less power. And there is no better way to show which group has power than which group you're not allowed to criticize. This is just something that's transparently obvious through what they're doing.They are showing that that is their groups that have power over other groups. And I should note here, when I talk about black people, people are like, well, black people are disempowered. Well, They don't mean black people, black people, they don't mean diverse people, diverse people. They don't mean trans people, trans people. By that, what I mean is they mean black people only in so far as black people follow what they're doing.And this is why they like remove somebody's black card. When somebody, when a black person is like, oh, Uh, I feel really uncomfortable with what you guys are doing and they go, oh, well then you're not officially black anymore. In fact, you're actually a racist. You have internalized racism or a woman's like, oh, well I think [00:11:00] what you guys are doing everyone.Oh, no, you're not a woman anymore. You now have internalized misogyny. Um, or a trans person, you know, like buck angel or Caitlyn Jenner, doesn't show complete ideological conformity. Uh, they're like, oh yeah, you're not really a transperson anymore. Um, and you know, Biden famously said, you know, if you don't vote for me, you ain't black.This is a classic thing that they do. They are not about when they say we're about protecting black people or trans people or woman. They don't mean. People with dark colored skin. They mean people who I agree with them. And this is how they've also transformed the word racism to no longer being. They're like, oh, Uh, you know, saying you have black friends doesn't mean you're not a racist and just like, know it. It literally does.Like if you don't see black people as different from white people,And you associate with black people as equals. Then you are not a racist in any meaningful sense of the term racist. What they mean is they are trying to redefine racist as seeing race relations through a leftist ideology. And if you [00:12:00] don't. Then you are a racist. A far leftist minority status is not conferred by literally being a minority. It is conferred by the way, a person thinks and acts. And if you didn't happen to be lucky enough to be born a minority within a leftist community. Well, That was the core innovation. Of all of these new genders and everything like that, you can just start identifying as non-binary or something, you know, as Simone and I have pointed out by leftist terminology because neither of us cares what our gender is at any sort of deep, emotional level.We would be considered age gender, which is a form of gender queer, which is a form of trance that we would be considered trans within leftist ideology. They have broadened. These minority definitions so much that anyone can fall under them. So along as they ideologically identify, it's left us. The same way that Simona and I couldn't claim any of the privileges that trans people get within leftist communities because. We don't hold the ideology of the leftist community, [00:13:00] but if we wanted to, yeah, we. And if we wanted to completely submit ourselves to the far left Colt. We could get those benefits And you're like, no, no, no, uh, leftist, they do really care about the plight of like a brown and black people. And it's like, okay, well, what about what's going on in Darfur right now? You know, there's a genocide going on. What are they doing about that? Oh, nothing. Oh, you didn't even know about it, but you knew about the situation in Israel.Why didn't you know about the situation in Israel and not Dar for. Is it because in one case it allows them to exercise antisemitism. And in the other case, it doesn't. In the other case, it's black on black people and they just don't care about black on black violence in the same way they don't in the U S what about what's going on in Haiti right now? If you did know about that or. Let's just doing anything about it. No, they're sure.Putting up an awful big stink about what's going on in Israel. Why it's what's going on in Israel important. But what's going on in Haiti. Isn't important. And what's going on in Darfur is an important. Because if they actually [00:14:00] cared. About black victims, all three incidents would be the same in their eyes.And the truth is they don't. They care how they can use these. Tragedies to their political ends into enforce their will on other groups.Simone Collins: but I also think this is so indicative of what someone was highlighting to us at that conference we were speaking at the other weekend, where they were like, I think you don't understand the sheer extent to which the people who work in marketing and who work at these like big corporations are completely divorced from the reality of their actual consumers.Like here is this woman. Who's like, Oh, the concept of my primary consumer, the target audiences of the company that I work for is disgusting to me.Malcolm Collins: Well, she knows that most gamers are white fifth males and she's like, Oh, we need to, she described it as like, in one of the talks she gave is like [00:15:00] giving them their broccoli.Like we know that don'tSimone Collins: dislikes them.Malcolm Collins: She doesn't hold on knows that they don't like the ideas that she's inserting into games But they need to do it to fix these people is the way that she sees it like Ideologically fix it like it's very explicit what her goal and, and that she knows that what she is adding to games isn't liked by her audience, or she wouldn't describe it as like giving them their broccoli, right?Like,Simone Collins: why are these people hiring her when she's clearly a poor businessMalcolm Collins: decision? So this is interesting. She has spoken on this before, and we know exactly why they're hiring her. She says, what you need to do is if you are woke within a company, you know, we've described wokeness as like an infection. If you go to our video, you know, the anatomy of the urban monoculture.Is she calls for all the woke people in a company to like take the marketing department aside and tell them what's going to happen to them if they don't hire consultants like her, i. e. They will secretly flame the marketing department, basically terrorize, threaten the marketing department. Um, [00:16:00] if you're a creative working in triple A, which I did for many, many years, um, put this stuff up to your higher ups, and if they don't see the value in what you're asking for, when you ask for consultants, when you ask for research, go have a coffee with your marketing team and just terrify them with the possibility of what's going to happen if they don't give you what you want.Simone Collins: So a nice, nice marketing, nice online reputation.You got there. Be ashamed ofMalcolm Collins: something that happened. And she's, she means this on the personal level, not at the company, but like personally, Start attacking the marketing departments of these companies and they've shown, and this is actually how this all blew up originally. I can't remember, these are the people who are supposed to be fighting for inclusivity and she's saying things like, I, I hate men, I hate white people, I hate cis people, it makes me, it's like, imagine if you said like, it makes me sick to see gay people kiss.Like, imagine that! And, and, and again, if you wonder which group has power, if they're like, Oh, it's okay to make fun of a group that's out of power. [00:17:00] Definitionally, the group you can't make fun of is the group with power. Definitionally, the group you can make fun of without punishment is a group that isSimone Collins: disempowered.I'm sorry, but gamers, the, the basement dwelling unemployed who have the most time to play games, Are the most powerful people in the world, Malcolm, because they run 4chan. 4chan runs everything. I mean, whatever 4chan is now.Malcolm Collins: Anyway, so yeah, she has like 8chan, these, I don't know. They go to new places. They stamp out one hiding place and they've got new ones, which is fantastic.That's why they're the world defenders of our civilization. You should see our video, Urban vs. Rural. It was one of our early ones, if you haven't seen it. Revolutions. And it, it sort of goes into the online sphere of revolution. But so what happened is, is all that was happening is a group on Steam decided to track the games that this company had worked on.[00:18:00]That's it. It was a small group. It had less than a thousand people in it. It was a nothing burger. Somebody from this company found this group, And decided they were going to try to get everyone on it who has an account on Steam shut down. Now keep in mind, you know on Steam, like, I buy games on Steam, like, they're basically saying we want to take away all the games from everybody who's involved in these communities.And, and they wanted to doSimone Collins: it through using It's like taking away your Amazon account. Functionally,Malcolm Collins: but much bigger than that because you still own all the stuff you bought on Amazon. OhSimone Collins: god Oh, so they play the games that they bought if their steam accounts wereMalcolm Collins: just yeah They were revoked for sort of hate and stuff like that.Yeah They're about your precious that's dirtySimone Collins: that's low. Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and they And of course it blew up in the opposite effect direction, you know, Streisand effect. Now there is 194, 000 people plus in this event. And yeah, [00:19:00] it's, it's, it's really psychotic. That they, and now they're freaking out.So, so it's worse you knowing what happened next. So then Sweet Baby Inc started freaking out and they called all their media friends. Cause of course they've got media friends in the, in the gamer media, right? It's crazy. Kotaku, right? Kotaku in Action is one of my favorite subreddits that I love. It's like the last inaction group.Tumblr in Action I used to love, but like, anyway, I'm kind of sad I've never been on Kotaku in Action yet. I you know, I sometimes see them talk about YouTubers. They're a good group. Anyway, so Kotaku in Action they Or called that because Kotaku is seen as like the Tumblr of the gaming media.Just a publication you should never read if you want anything that's like, not just totally biased. But Kotaku published a piece defending them and they basically put up this piece. And a bunch of other gaming media published pieces defending them, trying to be like, Oh, this isn't a problem.Oh, this is no big deal. Oh. And what I love is the changes. They say diversity isn't their [00:20:00] fault. Diversity is what the customers want. It's like, if it's what the customers want, then why are they saying threatened marketing departments with mass cancellation of people who don't even play video games?They know it's not what the customers want. That's why they're saying it's like eating your vegetables because they know it's not what the customers want. It's the most insane double think like, like, like the manipulation of these prison statistics.Simone Collins: It's hard to believe, but I, at this point, cannot be surprised by what you say, because it is in line withMalcolm Collins: Right. And now the left is like, because it's like going on, it's like Gamergate 2. They want fight number two. Wow. We got to remind the next generation of gamers that leftists are not your friends.They don't want to give you stuff. They only want to take stuff from you. And if, if you are straight or you happen to be white they're really not your friends. They don't think of you as fully human and they think it's okay [00:21:00] to dehumanize you in jokes with the people they work with. Quite apparently, yeah.And when you speak up against them, they will try to take things from you. And they think that that's their right. And then when you take things from them, when you point out, Oh, they're like, Oh, it's mob action against us. And it's like, what were you trying to do that created this whole phenomenon? Mob action against other people.Like you use these tactics and this is what's really interesting about the left is this idea that they can use tactics against other people but when other people use those tactics against them it's completely psychotic and immoral and that they can get the mainstream media on their side when they do this.And it is because they genuinely believe, and this is a big thing that I think has changed about the right recently and I really appreciate it and it's something that you and I, you know, really feel is that what we should be fighting for is to give everyone a chance to voice their opinions. Yeah.You know, and that is what we want is an information free economy. That is not what they want. They do not believe, like when I look at a [00:22:00] leftist, I'm like, your opinions are totally valid and I want an environment where you can voice those opinions. Mhm.Simone Collins: And we want it, especially those who disagree with us, because if we're wrong, we want to know we're wrong.And if we're wrong, we would love for them to be exposed to ideas. And if you stifle the debate, if you stifle the expression of dissenting or different views in the first place, there is no way To, to question or shame or in any way, even punish people for ideas that are genuinely wrong. Like the only way you can really get someone on that front is if you subject them to either a very, very robust argument and or so much social disapproval that they're like, wow, I just really need to not believe this anymore.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, and something you talked about that I thought was really interesting is the difference between marketing departments, demographics, and society. As you were telling me about that, where did you hear about this?Simone Collins: Oh, it was when we were at Ray platform. They're talking about how divorcedMalcolm Collins: people who went [00:23:00] to talk to marketing departments and they'd start with, no, I feel like maybe like AJ Crabill was talking aboutSimone Collins: this or something.Maybe this is a different conversation you found with someone. I know we talk so much that you just know that most conversations you have with interesting people are with me, but that's not true. But they were like,Malcolm Collins: yeah, they speak to marketing departments. And one of the things they start with is what are the demographics of this marketing department.Like how many people here are women? How many people here vote Democrat versus Republican? And then they're like, what do you think the Democrats of your consumer base is? And they would compare the two. And marketing departments were always vastly more progressive and vastly more female than the consumer base that they were marketingSimone Collins: to.Well, think about it. I mean, like I would say more conservative people in general. Don't choose to go to a university and do not choose to get marketing degrees. Progressive women do that. It makes perfect sense to me. Yeah,Malcolm Collins: well, it makes perfect sense, but it means that they have the people who are making all these decisions in our society about how they're going to structure games, how they're going to structure, as they're moving up, losing companies and stuff like that.They Have [00:24:00] no idea what the people who they're selling to want. They know what their ideologically supposed to believe those people want, because what were they studying in university? Not marketing. They were studying ideological conformity to the urban monoculture. They were studying what, you know, change their relative status in that culture.Simone Collins: And I feel like many people in marketing, especially those who study it. And so I think you're going to get this at larger organizations where people are being hired by HR professionals based on their credentials and not on outcomes. Yeah. So like that, that's where you get women where you actually get like outcome oriented marketers.You get men, you get men who help with Facebook ads and tactical campaigns. All thoseMalcolm Collins: men do.Simone Collins: Yeah. They're growth hackers. Yeah. And they're very oriented around results. Whereas the larger businesses really are not hiring these spunky results based very grassroots growth [00:25:00] hackers. They're hiring college credentialed female marketing experts.And I don't even, What's so weird is I think they've lost the plot so much that they don't even necessarily think they're job because they're not results oriented. Is to sell a fricking product. It's to look a certain way and make the company look a certain way. And these days they believe that the certain way you're supposed to look and make the company look is very progressive.Malcolm Collins: It's actually interesting that you say this that there was a big freak out in marketing departments when like Google and Facebook ads started, they could test like the amount of sales that were happening through the systems. And they were like, well, this destroys marketing as a field. And that was because marketing is a field.field was optimized around things that didn't actually drive sales. It was, it was, it was, it was, and, and you know, they, they buy all these ads and stuff like that, but because you couldn't track it, it wasn't working.Simone Collins: It was hard to prove that it wasn't working.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And, and so when people were saying, and there was this big freak out in the field of marketing, Oh, you've [00:26:00] destroyed marketing in the field.What they meant is you destroyed evidence based marketing. And I'd argue that every company that still has a non evidence based marketing department, you know, for TV ads, for branding, et cetera, these departments should be ended. They have no point in a transcript. I thinkSimone Collins: it's only a matter of time until they are.It's just, it's so bizarre that they still exist. And I think a lot of it, even in startups, cause you know, startups do these too, is they just kind of think, okay, well now we need to scale. Now we need to grow. I'm just going to hire someone to handle it. And then they just like make a marketing department and hope that it works.And it just doesn't work that way. But I think people are going to, they're getting wise to itMalcolm Collins: for sure. I don't want to loop you back to the beginning of this discussion. When you look at like government statistics being manipulated as much as they're being manipulated.Simone Collins: But it reminds me of your, your discussions too, of like, I'm likeMalcolm Collins: the demographic rates are much worse thanSimone Collins: you think.Well, they are, but it's, it's that classic issue of what you measure ends up backfiring. So if you're trying to [00:27:00] make sure that your department looks, you know, equitable or whatever, you, you don't want to You're being judged. There'sMalcolm Collins: two different things. There's the issue is in marking black people as white, which is one thing.But then the other thing was even if you actually parse their statistics, they didn't say what the government was saying. They said by like orders of magnitude, not by like marginal differences.Why? Why have they lied this much? This reminds me of a really famous thing from the UK where when they were doing genetics testing, like why don't we have access to full human genome databases anymore in the UK? Well, they shut down access to full human databases because when they were contrasting them with cultural and religious groups, it turned out that one group had rates of child specifically father, daughter, graping and childbirth that was a thousand times higher than the general population might have been 10, 000 times higher [00:28:00] than the general population or something.Deeply disturbing. Yes. They, they said that, well, if these stats were known, it could, Spur certain types of hate, and I think everyone knows who was doing this and that therefore we needed to shut down access to all of these databases unless all of what was being published from them had been reviewed by like ultraSimone Collins: progressives.Well, I think that's not how you can access these databases, but you have to give these big reports on exactly what you're going to study and why what you're studying isn't going to hurt anyone's feelings.Malcolm Collins: Well, not just feelings. It wouldn't care if it hurt white people's feelings.Simone Collins: If it hurt straight people's feelings.Sorry, white people aren't people. Anybody who matters. Anyone who's really human. Yes,Malcolm Collins: she was. What are you thinking? Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to say something so silly and so stupid. Human people people, not, you know. Yeah,Simone Collins: I mean, come on.Malcolm Collins: No, but it is, transparently racist the progressive movement has become.And it's upsetting [00:29:00] to me. It's upsetting to me because I genuinely have a deep level of antagonism towards racism and to see all of the racist collating on the left and, and taking these positions and being defended by my tax dollars. Like, seriously, we need to do something about this. This is getting out of control.This is no longer like normal stuff. If you have ever questioned, you know, would you have done something during like slavery in the South? Would you have done something during the Nazi government? Like now is the time. If you go along with what the institutional racists, the progressives are doing, you would not have.Simone Collins: That's a good way of putting it. Yeah, because it's, it's getting to be, the bias is getting to be that profound now that,Malcolm Collins: yeah, well, and this is the thing they're like, Oh, well, we're not killing people yet, but would they, would they, if they could, I mean, we've already seen them like with the trucker rally, like cancel people's bank [00:30:00] accounts, prevent them from doing work.They tried to ruin. And when you ruin somebody's livelihood, when you're like, I'm going to go after them and try to get them fired from their job and they have like a family and kids. Yeah, you might as well be. Like, these people are monsters, and If you don't stand up to them just as vociferously as you imagine you would have evil groups in the past, racist groups that control powerful institutions in the past, then you are just as cowardly as everyone who went along with every one of these evil organizations historically.Simone Collins: Well, so what do you think people should do? I mean,Malcolm Collins: I think people need to, in their voting patterns and the way that they're communicating with other people be like, look, these people are evil and we need toSimone Collins: highlight. So many people are like, I'm just sick of the system. It's so screwed up. And like, yeah, it is.But so you're just, You're going to not vote because this is why we can't have nice things.Malcolm Collins: And, and you can do [00:31:00] mail in voting. Mail in voting is not,Simone Collins: yeah, it's fine. It will be, there's voter fraud on all ends. And the only way that you're really going to win is by overwhelming the other side with numbers.That's it. Because there's only, for example, in every district where there is voting, let's say that there is, you know, active fraud. Okay. Let's just say that that's happening. If, for example, the number of votes that comes in is higher than the population of registered voters of that area, the election is going to get thrown out, the other side can only do so much in terms of voter fraud, like literally.And that's if they did everything. And that is if they were actually as competent as you think they are in ha ha, they really aren't. You just have to show up because they, they only have so much that they can. Even theoretically play with and mess with. So just show up, just show up. The Republican party is really shooting themselves in the foot, especially with all this election campaign or election integrity talk because they are actively [00:32:00] dissuading people from voting.Malcolm Collins: Actively. There's a huge problem. All the, all the pollsters know it, all the voting people know it. It's like a, yeah, look. Does the left engage in voter fraud? Yes. I mean, very obviously. Does theSimone Collins: right engage in voter fraud?Malcolm Collins: Probably too. Yeah, no, we know they've been convicted. Like, we know that the right engages, the right and the left engage in voter fraud.Everyone,Simone Collins: everyone cheats. Everyone cheats because the, the in the end.Malcolm Collins: But hold on, hold on. Are the institutional bureaucrats who are engaging in this voter broad competent? No, they are not. You can still win with overwhelming numbers.Simone Collins: Yeah. Okay. So vote, I guess, is your, is your advice. I'd like that.Malcolm Collins: Go and don't buy from companies and engage in this stuff.And it's fortunate, you know, if, if, if, if sweet baby Inc worked on good games, that would be one thing. But they don't know that all the games they work on turn out terrible. Oh, okay. Well, that'sSimone Collins: I mean,Malcolm Collins: you know, it's like, it is like a sign so you can just keep a sticker. When are they working on something?Well, so thenSimone Collins: you would say, religiously speaking, [00:33:00] they are agents of the basal lisc where they are doing god's work by eliminating the weak and corrupt so that they don't have as long of a lifespan and make less of an impact. Ultimately. God bless, you know, they're just, they're great. Let them do their thing.Good job. Applause. I love you. I love you too. Welcome.What you wanna do now?Wait, we need to be. The audience does not like it when we're the other way.Malcolm Collins: This is the problem with an autistic audience. They need it.Simone Collins: The problem. It's their correctness that we mustMalcolm Collins: respect Get full access to Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm at basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In this eye-opening episode, Malcolm and Simone dive deep into the complexities of the modern trans movement and its potential impact on vulnerable youth. Drawing from personal experiences and extensive research into cult psychology, they explore the fine line between genuine gender dysphoria and the allure of a "trans cult" that may lead non-trans individuals to make life-altering decisions.Malcolm argues that the current cultural climate, combined with the challenges of puberty and the desire for social acceptance, has created a perfect storm for young people to be drawn into a "trans cult" that promises affirmation and belonging. He distinguishes between the experiences of truly trans individuals and those who may be influenced by social contagion, emphasizing the need for nuanced conversations and support systems.Simone shares her own struggles with body dysmorphia and the role of media in shaping unrealistic expectations. Together, they discuss the importance of strong family relationships, carefully curated friend groups, and open, honest discussions about gender identity and the potential consequences of transitioning.The conversation also delves into the politicization of the trans movement, the erosion of parental rights, and the dangers of demonizing or sheltering children from these complex issues. Malcolm and Simone offer practical advice for parents seeking to protect their children from harmful influences while fostering understanding and compassion.Whether you're a parent, an educator, or simply someone trying to make sense of the rapidly evolving landscape of gender identity, this thought-provoking discussion is essential listening.Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] You need to look at this like a kid who's going into this. You are in a group where you are being teased for being different from whatever, right? Like everybody feels this way when they're, when they're going through puberty,Simone Collins: your body changing, your body getting gross, stinky things happening that don't make you feel good, extreme mood fluctuations, which of course make you more volatile.Like women get hit hard by, you know, things that are moving them more towards feelings of depression. And extreme social anxiety as well. Like you, you feel like you stick out like a sore thumb, you desperately want to belong and yet nothing really seems to fit in terms of something you belong to.Like all these things, it's just the perfect storm for, for some form of, Oh, this is a solution. And you are desperateMalcolm Collins: for affirmation. Then you hear the, this is the solution to all this. And keep in mind, by the definitions of trans in today's society, Simone and I are actually trans. I'm just pointing that out to point out that I have no animosity towards this community, and I was in the GSA growing up, everything like that, . this should be [00:01:00] as concerning to actual trans people as it should be to everyone else. Because it leads to these individuals who are joining what is essentially an extremist cult beginning to represent the mainstream trans movement an actually trans person, just wants to live their life as the other gender.These individuals aren't like that. They just want to preach the cult message. Like once they join, all they care about is all of the things that differentiate the cult from the mainstream cultural group. this is actually, I find to be the core difference between the trans cult and the real trans movement.Would you like to know more?Simone Collins: So, Malcolm, I was at this grassroots political event as I'm running for office now state rep in Pennsylvania. And I got really frustrated at this event. And I'm getting concerned in general about the points of focus among conservative voters who I, as a Republican candidate am courting because they seem to be focused on important issues.But the [00:02:00] wrong things. So for example as we've discussed in numerous podcasts, conservatives are very concerned about the urban monoculture, essentially erasing their culture, you know, taking their kids and making their kids hate them and leave their culture and generally be miserable people and, you know, I, they don't want that and they don't like seeing that happen, but then what they're focusing on in terms of like actual local issues are things like.Oh, they're making, they're, they're letting anyone go into girls bathrooms or locker rooms. And I'm like, dude, like teach, you know, teach your daughter self defense. And have her punch out whoever comes at her in the wrong way. I'm way more concerned about if I had a daughter in any school, public or private her coming to me one day and saying, I am in the wrong body and I am going to kill myself if I cannot.Change my gender right now.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And I [00:03:00] want to talk about this in, in like a wider context here. So I want to be clear for our audience. I think that is transness. So we'll talk about transness in different contexts here. I think some historic, like true form of transness. is a real phenomenon that happens to some individuals.Well, you know, if we do genuine, like if gender matters, right? Like if, if we do actually have like an internal gender in terms of how he perceives the world, it would only be natural or logical that some deformity within that would exist as well. That some individuals would be born. With the wrong sort of gender expression or gender impulses.But if we look at a horror historic context this is a fairly rare phenomenon, much rarer than something like being born with abnormal arousal pathways in which you are attracted to similar gender individuals and stuff like that. However with that said, and [00:04:00] this is what really got me interested in this this morning is I was talking with my wife and she was like, If the trans movement existed when I was in high school, I would have been trans.Eva Movet had existed when I was going through these processes that, that, because she had anorexia. She had intense gender dysmorphia or body dysmorphia, where she felt really, really uncomfortable with how she looked going through puberty to the point that it almost ended up killing her. And it's why she cannot you know, conceive naturally anymore.So, so she did extreme things in an attempt to resolve this body dysmorphia that she had. If there had been a community that told her if you do x and y you will both be affirmed by a community, they'll tell you you're great, we love you, you know, love bombing, however you want to put it, like, you, you are perfect as you are, and that it would fix this for her, that she would no [00:05:00] longer have this she would have gone all in with that community.And so. And, and keep in mind, she fits all of the demographics that are typically associated with trans ness, right? Like, i. e., autistic individuals, like her, are much more likely to become trans. Individuals who are really high IQ, like, in terms of output, or like, top of their class, also much more likely to become trans.So, she fits a lot of these. So, when I look at this, I'm like, my kids, that I'm having with this woman, are of this category. And I see this To not diminish actual trans identity, but to say that someone like her could have become trans, could have been living life as a trans person today, and not know that if they hadn't known that was an option, they could have chosen a different life path where they would have been much happier.Simone Collins: Yeah. Or even like where things would have been less expensive. I mean, fully going trans can also mean a lot of medical procedures, [00:06:00] ongoing hormone therapy. It's just an expensive way to live. Kind of how, like my choice to be anorexic and my youth has led to very expensive IVF treatments. And osteoporosis, which is going to come back and bite me already.It's, you know, not great, you know, and, and all sorts of other medical conditions. So, I mean. I mean, IMalcolm Collins: love a quote that you had for me once, which was thank God when I was going through puberty, no marketing group or culture, however you want to frame it, had figured out they could tell me if you only join our ideology, then.All of your you, you'll feel comfortable in your body. And, but that once you join this ideological group, it's a permanent subscription you need to pay constantly after you, you know, for the ongoing medical expenses. And if you ever deviate from that ideology to even the slightest degree, you know, you look at someone like Buck Angel who really.Was the first major [00:07:00] player in making the trans movement norm normalized within today's society. And who I see as being like, a a a prime example of this category of transness, which isn't this modern category. The level to which he has been denigrated By the modern trans community because he came out and, and, and one is right leaning and two is uncomfortable with child transition.And those were the two things that made him basically a demon. So there, it's an, it's an ideological subscription in the way that the community has gone in a way that is very harmful to trans people who would affect this historic definition of trans.Another person who this happened to. Early trans advocate who really paved the way for the modern trans movement. And then with completely stabbed in the back by that movement was a Caitlyn Jenner Because the modern trans movement views being trans is more of a cultural or political affiliation than just a gender identity that anyone could have regardless of their political [00:08:00] affiliation.I can't imagine how hard it must be for somebody who was actually trans and came out when it was still this. Extremely discriminated against the group. That now it's become like a fad or like been taken over by this weird cold or at least a portion of the trans community has. And if you find this accusation offensive, when it is just very obviously true that. You know, if I'm a young teen going through puberty and I feel like a social outcast and there's a group that's willing to affirm me so long.It's like undergo specific changes for that group. Of course, a portion of people are going to. He engaged with that community. Of course it's only rational and Abe. That fact is offensive to you. And do you identify as trans it's? Probably because you're not actually trans. It's probably because you're part of this cold. 'cause that's the only reason I can imagine that you would find something that is very obviously true. That if you give a teenager during a stage, when [00:09:00] most people are very uncomfortable with their bodies, past to affirmation and comfort with their body. That. That.will convince some people who are not actually trans to transition.Simone Collins:So what frustrates me about parents, like conservative parents concerns about their children, which I think are very valid, but then the things that they focus on is that what I'm seeing is strong evidence that most parents are not at all prepared to actually.Protect their kids, especially if their kids are like me and not actually trans, but very likely to fall into trans as a solution to just general body dysmorphia and being a teenager, which sucks. They just, they're, they're looking at totally the wrong things, right? They're looking at bathrooms.They're not looking at the cultural interventions they need to be considering to actually protect their children. From memes like this that can be quite harmful. And again, we're not shitting on trans people here. We're just saying there are a lot of people [00:10:00] who are transitioning now and undergoing major, they're not actually trans.Yeah.Malcolm Collins: I think so. One thing that I've noticed, cause I've been listening to a lot of stories of people who seem to not have been trans who transitioned. One of the most common things where these conservative parents are making a big mistake is they assume so, so two things, one is, is because their Fits gender norms as they understand them like, you know, these are people with a bunch of boys, a bunch of girls, you know, they might be coming from largest families and they know like this daughter is acting like every other daughter.I've had quite gender differentiated from the males in my family. And if anything, even classically quite feminine, they assume that they are not at risk from this group. And that is actually almost inversely true from what I've seen. From what I've seen, it's actually the people who fit the gender stereotype, or appear to fit the gender stereotype of their assigned gender, who are most at risk from this sort of thing.What is ironic here? Is that what puts these [00:11:00] conservative families at risk of having their kids transition when they're not actually trans, is that they are taking the trans community at their word. Assuming that the only people who would transition or at risk of finding this group and lifestyle appealing. Are those who act as if they are not their birth gender, when that is just not true. The community almost doesn't care at all, how much somebody acts like their birth, gender or thinks they are their birth gender., at the start they care. How vulnerable that person is to influence. it's much better to think of this modern iteration of the trans movement, the iteration that s***s on all of their early path blazers, all of the early people who sacrificed for what is now called the trans movement. Like a cult which has taken over the movement then. As actual trans people, they are just using the [00:12:00] cover that this ideology gives them.To spread. But also like, obviously this would happen. If you take any thing and say, okay, now this is the thing that people are no longer allowed to criticize in any way, shape or form. The medically speaking.That gives a lot of cover for.Psychologically toxic memetic spreading strategies to begin to randomly form and evolve out of that movement. , which we would normally call coats and would normally be shut down on school environments and stuff like that. But because it covers itself in the same way, like a cancer in a human body will say, oh, I'm actually really important.You really need me. Don't attack this thing. And that's how they keep the other cells from getting rid of them. , this Colt says, oh, I'm actually part of the LGBT movement. And if you call out what I'm doing, you are calling out the LGBT movement when that's just not functionally true at all. It is not a real or historic part of the LGBT movement.Malcolm Collins: Especially if they are In [00:13:00] any way unpopular or othered by their group, because you need to look at this like a kid who's going into this. You are in a group where you are being teased for being different from whatever, right? Like everybody feels this way when they're, when they're going through puberty, when they're in these teen years.And this is also the years when people are most likely to convert to different religious frameworks. If you're talkingSimone Collins: about religion. And again, I don't, I want to be clear, like this isn't even about being teased. This is about your body changing, your body getting gross, stinky things happening that don't make you feel good, extreme mood fluctuations, which of course make you more volatile.Like women get hit hard by, you know, things that are moving them more towards feelings of depression. And extreme social anxiety as well. Like you, you feel like you stick out like a sore thumb, you desperately want to belong and yet nothing really seems to fit in terms of something you belong to.Like all these things, it's just the perfect storm for, for some form of, Oh, this is a solution. And you are desperateMalcolm Collins: for [00:14:00] affirmation. Then you hear the, this is the solution to all this. Well, at the same time, when you go to these communities and you say, you know what, I think I might be this, like I might actually be.Trans. And keep in mind, by the definitions of trans in today's society, Simone and I are actually trans. Because we are agender, which is gender queer, which is a form of trans IEI really don't care what gender I present as. I'm just interested in like efficacious living my life and I don't wanna focus on that.And that makes me agender a form of gender queer, which is a form of trans, was in most definitions of trans. Anyway, they've really expanded the definition here. But, so you're a kid, you've gone through this and I, I'm just pointing that out to point out that I have no animosity towards this community, exactly, but, you, you, and I was in the GSA growing up, everything like that, like I really care about it.protecting the LGBT community where I can, while also admitting that there is a group that is socially converting right now. So I've grown up, I am unsure of [00:15:00] myself. I have this thing that is an existential issue for me, you know, comfort within my body because my body is undergoing a lot of changes.And now there's a group which says we can make you comfortable with your body. And whenever you go to them and you say, I feel like I might be All of a sudden you get love bombed and within cults, this is the common tactic. People know I really love cult psychology. Basically everyone in the community is all of a sudden telling you how great you are whenever you affirm a specific belief system, which is that you were born in the wrong body or that, you know, you are gender queer or that you have any sort of non normative gender representation, you get one.status within this community into constant Now, if you are a teen, and anyone, you know, if you're a trans individual watching this, you must see, even if somebody wasn't trans if they were a teen, and there was a community that would provide this for them, how appealing that [00:16:00] community would be, and how that community might lead them to making very serious, Like, like cultural decisions and decisions about their, their medical engagement that could have incredibly damaging long term consequences.And then what I keep seeing is individuals then go to psychologists, like their parents send them to a psychologist because they see the individual is depressed. And most psychologists today have been taught only to affirm when an individual questions their gender. And as such, you know, now they're in an isolated environment.Why are psychologists doing this? It's not because they're evil. It's just because this is the course of action that doesn't get to get them fired. You know, it's like, in tech, what they say, nobody ever got fired for choosing Microsoft. Like if you choose the default option, it is very safe for you.Well, this then creates a problem if in any individual going through puberty, you can do this thing, which I believe is true. I believe even me, if I had a group of individuals who are [00:17:00] constantly pushing this, we will affirm you if you say you feel uncomfortable with your gender and adopt this ideology.Even I might have been susceptible to this as, like, masculine presenting as I am. And what's really scary to me when I read these stories is they have this common element. Where it is an individual that may have been a bit of a social outcast, but otherwise was a, you know, a totally average individual, you know, preteen.They encounter a group of friends, and then all of a sudden, they become obsessed with this topic of transition. They believe they had always been obsessed with this topic of transition, even though everyone who knows them said, No, this is something that didn't matter to you before. And they believe that they Will kill themselves if they don't transition.Like suicide becomes a major part of their identity during this pre transition period. And when I hear about this as like a cultural package, especially in the context of somebody who's really [00:18:00] interested in cult psychology and studying cults, this actually sounds very compelling. Like it's a compelling mechanism for delivering an ideological package.And I, and I say this because, If this is a memetic sense of spreading, this should be as concerning to actual trans people as it should be to everyone else. Because it leads to these individuals who are joining what is essentially an extremist cult beginning to represent the mainstream trans movement because now these individuals who are going to be much more ideological prime, like a normal trans person, when I say normal trans person, like an actually trans person, just wants to live their life as the other gender.These individuals aren't like that. They just want to preach the cult message. Like once they join, all they care about is all of the things that differentiate the cult from the mainstream cultural group. How do you, like, like if this does exist as a cultural subset, which I'm beginning to see evidence, especially when I look at this extreme, like, Oh my God, if I don't do this as well, I can think about, I'm going to kill myself.[00:19:00]It's actually really common was in cults in terms of convincing someone about this existential issue where they need to undergo something. Like within cults, classically, it's giving up all your money, but basically it's a permanent change that you can't easily come back from, and that permanently indebts you toSimone Collins: the cult.Well, and what scares me about it, and, and from a cult standpoint, and from any, you know, standpoint is typically once the, the family and friends of a person hears about this, it's too late. You know, when they come to you and they're like, I'm going to join this cult or I have to like change my gender.Malcolm Collins: That's what most cults do is, is the key to cult conversion techniques. And I understand, I don't think this is like an intentionally created cult. It's like an accidentally evolved cult. I think trans people were real. And then an iteration of the trans movement that was very proselytized, like a little bit proselytized a lot.The iterations of it. found out how to use these cult tactics accidentally ended up spreading faster than other iterations of it. [00:20:00] And so essentially you got this branch off of what was the real trans LGBT community, which follows these cult patterns. And one cult pattern is to convince an individual that anyone who doesn't affirm you joining the cult is abusive.And therefore you should cut ties with those individuals. Especially your core care network. So for many of these individuals, this was their family. This was their, their friend group. It tells you, or your, your, your birth culture, right? Like if you're trying to join a new cultural group, what they need to do, they need to convince you that your birth cultural is antagonistic to you and that your family, your parents, your closest support network is antagonistic to you.This is how you build dependency on the cult. And so they, they push this ideology on individuals where if a parent in any way says. I don't know, or I don't remember you always having this gender questioning. Like, maybe we should think about this. Maybe we should talk to third parties about this.Those individuals are now the height [00:21:00] of abuse. Yeah. And they then begin to work in what a lot of people don't know is how easy it is to form memories that aren't real memories. Like, like, implanted memories are actually very easy in, in psychology, it's like one of the easiest things to implant memories in someone.If you have a group that's affirming a particular memory, they'll ask, like, did your parents ever abuse you? And, first, you say they abused you and not affirming you. But then, if you remember vague ideas that maybe there was, like, actual physical or textual abuse.Then when you mentioned the textual abuse, they begin to say, yes, that definitely happened to you. And because you get this affirmation for talking about this and they can begin to work its way into your consciousness and you believe it actually happened. And then you push this on parents who might've otherwise been totally normal parents who were just concerned about your wellbeing.No, this is actually a very common strategy and cults these days, , implanted memories of textual abuse that didn't happen. , by your parents because it [00:22:00] separates you from your support network, which is obviously a thing of immense value to a cult, because then you see the Colt as your core support network and you. , it's, it's much harder for the people who would otherwise have the most interest in pulling you out of the cult to do so. As to why these sorts of behaviors begin to evolve within the modern trans movement. It's simply because it did not anything about trans individuals specifically it's simply because it was a part of society that you weren't allowed to criticize it whenever you have a part of society that you're not allowed to criticize.That's a perfect area for Colts to begin to arise. , because behavior that would otherwise get called out is not getting called out.Malcolm Collins: And now there's nothing the parent can do because anything the parent tries to do to separate you from the cult. drive you further to the cult and further away from them.Simone Collins: So, okay. What I really want to get to have this discussion, which I think is so important is, you know, a lot of parents are just, like I'm saying, focused on the wrong thing, like bathrooms.Oh my gosh, this is a big problem. [00:23:00] What should parents actually be doing to prepare annotate things for their children and essentially prevent their children from making an irreversible decision. Assuming that they're not actually really trans, which that's what our concern is. If you have a kid who's like legit trans, they're legit trans.But I think a lot of people obviously are transitioning for the wrong reasons. So what, what are we going to do? What would you encourage otherMalcolm Collins: people to think about? I think that the biggest mistake that parents make is they don't understand that this is an alternate. Cultural framework and alternate religion, this thing that is sort of splintered from the real trans movement and has become a cult, basically and keep in mind, one of the groups that suffers most from this cult is the real trans movement because they dissent from this, that they're like What you're doing with kids is kind of problematic and they're like banned you're off of every network How dare you question what we're doing with kids?Anyway so They will be like when I was a kid my culture this Christian [00:24:00] Jewish, whatever culture right Muslim culture It worked for me. It seemed sane to me, right? But what they don't realize is they were in an environment where the majority of people affirmed that culture or didn't question that culture Their kids, who have their genetics, are now in cultures where the majority of people see that, for example, conservative Christian culture, as strangely as they would see a trans individual.Like, they're like, oh, you're of a weird cultural subset. Your kid has to go, if you're like a conservative Christian kid, or a conservative Mormon kid, in many environments today, they are seen as weird.And if what kept you was in your culture was a normalization was the fact that people didn't constantly question it, when you just say, Oh, well, of course, Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies. So I believe in Jesus. And that doesn't hold for this generation because they're going to actually be questioned on that.And from [00:25:00] an external perspective, he didn't really affirm them that well. To word this another way, I love real crime and mysteries today. Have I heard about a, a, a, a group of friends who are like, yeah, our friend died. And then after he died, I swear to God, he like came and talked to me afterwards. And everyone, almost everyone in this extended group of friends, we feel like we've engaged with him afterwards.And. And then you, and he disappeared from his grave, when we then went to check his grave. I'd be like, wow, cool, like, cryptid story, bro. Like, it'd be interesting to me, but I wouldn't immediately think, oh, that's definitely God. That is God right there. That is, there is no other explanation for that than the, that individual is the single most powerful entity in all of existence.And so given that that's the case, that you are relying on these defenses that worked when everyone affirmed them, you don't realize how [00:26:00] hostile our current environment is. And so when you send kids into that, and there are alternate frameworks out there that are providing solutions for their immediate problems, i.e. social validation and comfort with a changing body. The, the Christian framework, the Jewish framework, the Muslim framework does not do a good job of dealing with this teenage change period, right? Which is when people most frequently deconvert. Of course they are going to be susceptible. The urban monoculture is one thing, but these extremists cults that evolved out of it.And the way that you fight against them is either by fortifying your traditions, i. e. working to make them more resistant to modern science, everything like that. And that is not through telling a kid, if you deviate from any of this, I'm going to, like, be like, my kid knows better than to deviate from my version of Christianity.Because then what you're just saying is, if your kid didn't believe what you believed, he knew not to tell you. And so that makes them even more [00:27:00] vulnerable to external ideological frameworks,The same is also true for telling your kids something like trans people are evil and malevolent, and some people will be saying that in the comments, oh, how dare you humanize trans people in this Eve, you teach your kids that trans people are evil. Then when they meet a trans person who is not evil, Or at least. Not obviously evil and seems to care about them.And it seems to be a human being just like them. Then all of the things you have taught them about trans people become immediately invalidated in their eyes. And you have lost any defense.When you treat a group that you are trying to warn your kids against as truly evil.You have created an intense level of susceptibility in them to conversion by that group.Malcolm Collins: but this is also why us like many people are like, why don't you just go to one of the traditional cultures? It's because they are optimized for pre industrial time periods, not just pre internet, pre AI, pre modern urban [00:28:00] monocultural time periods, and they do not defend against it.Well, if I look at the data and so Yes, it makes sense for me to try to create a system that is very synthesizes whiz or works alongside modern science so that when these individuals challenge my kids, they look like the anti science cult because these kids are able to look at the studies on puberty blockers.And be like, this is what the actual data says on puberty blockers. Do you know this? And then this community treats them like a heretic because that's the way all extremist cults do. If there is information that damages the cult's ability to convert people, they will treat anyone who talks about that information.Like they are an absolute heretic. They are a demon incarnate, right? Like, and, and try to suppress that information when the individual is taking actual. You know, peer reviewed studies and, and, and well conducted studies and being like this is what they say, like rapid IQ decline, stuff like that from [00:29:00] this, this sort of you know, puberty blockers, et cetera, never experiencing an orgasm and they attack them for that.That will then reaffirm their traditional beliefs, but you need to engage with these ideas before they reach these communities. If you are not teaching your kids, like, real sex ed and sex ed includes about the trans community, not just that they're, like, this evil other, that there is a real trans community, and then there's, like, this weird cult that will immediately try to start preaching to them they need to be aware of that, because this, this group controls our school system.It controls the way if you send them, the worst thing you can do is if a kid does this is send them to a psychologist because what the cult has learned is that if they tell kids just say that you're going to commit suicide, if this doesn't happen, then they can bend the psychologist industry around them because the psychologist industry suicide is like a hot word and it basically means you have to do whatever I'm saying.Like you have to affirm whatever I'm saying. Like if I say I'm going to commit suicide. And it's the same as the school system. You look at a state like New Jersey, if I send my kid to school in New Jersey and they Approached by these [00:30:00] individuals and they begin on campus, identifying as a different gender, come up with a different name, you know, like a, that's the way cults don't really do, they create a new name for you so it really works, these cult ideologies have borrowed real trans identity that one, It has a legal duty to not tell me as a parent this has happened.If I, as a parent, find out, they have to use the school's lawyer, right? Like, if I say I'm actually not okay with the kid going by a different name at school they then have to use the school's lawyer to fight you. Like, it's a mandate. That's, that's how extreme this is. And it makes sense that it is because it's the cultural default right now and people could be fired for fighting it.So there's not really any reason to fight it. And they believe they're doing good. I mean, they believe that everyone who thinks that they identify as this actually is like a real trans person. And instead, they don't see them as actually one of the most. threatening thing [00:31:00] to real trans person people in society today, because these individuals, when you join the cult, you now need to attack every real trans person who expresses any sort of ideological diversity.Which means that for real trans people, now they can only have one political opinion. One really sad.Simone Collins: Yeah. Because I mean, a lot of people legitimately and, and less optimally transition to. Have a sense of belonging to, because they feel like, you know, this is what fixes the feeling that I had that made me feel so out of place.And then to only be able to continue belonging, if you are only following this very narrow line just seems torturous. But one thing that I I'm thinking about a lot for our kids is friend network. I mean, I think a lot of this blindsides parents because they don't realize that. Online or at school or elsewhere, their kids are hanging out with, with other people who are [00:32:00] coming to this conclusion.And these are good faith people. I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying like, I think this is a clear pathway. And I think it's critical, more carefully curating your kids, friends groups and making sure that they have a strong and very supportive network of friends who will be there for them and help them navigate through Just how awful adolescence is, especially is really important.And a lot of the parents that we've known personally, who've had kids transitioning in ways that seem really suboptimal. But also like through interviews that we've seen, it seems like really common characteristics are more isolated kids. Often there's a divorce at play and, and that is even scary too, because in many cases I've heard just, there's one parent who's really supportive of a transition and another who is either unaware.Or not supportive, and the parent who is supportive is using that as a means of like, getting the kid on their side. And you know, I'm the cool one, I'm the supportive one. And then the other parent gets [00:33:00] alienated, so then they're used as political tools. But yeah, it does seem to me, like, parents being Wait, you talk about this happeningMalcolm Collins: to like, a two year old?Simone Collins: Yeah, at one point, yeah, no a parent of a really, really a mother of a really, really young child started addressing them like a girl, they were a natal male and, and saying that, you know, like, they're, they're trans and I mean, like parents can be, of course,Malcolm Collins: going through a divorce to win a custody case.Yeah. Yeah. So they affirmed their gender and the other parentSimone Collins: didn't. Yeah, I mean, I, I have, it's been a while since I, I saw this story, so I'll look itMalcolm Collins: up in editing if it's real, but if it is real, that's horrifying so the story does appear to be real or at least real as reported by the father. , a man named Dennis Hannon.In the story. , his ex wife began to transition their son at the age of three beginning to dress him in all women's clothes at the age of three. , and the sun was never diagnosed with gender dysphoria, [00:34:00] however, She did start him on puberty blockers at the age of nine. Now, anyone who knows a three-year-old or nine-year-old kid knows they don't even have a concept. My kids might have a four year old right now., he does not understand gender at all. He cannot get gendered pronouns, right. He cannot consistently tell a girl from a boy. , and we don't really push them on it because I don't think it's that important. I think it's a weird thing that society over focuses on, but the point I'm making is a three-year-old.It definitely does not have a sense of whether or not they are a boy.or a girl yet. If this story as reported is true, this son absolutely did not make these decisions for himself. And that's why I'm not. , I guess I mis-gendering him because I, I, this would be an instance where I'd say, yeah, this individual is not. actually a trans person. This is someone who was separated from all of their other support networks. Raised in a cult and basically told by the only person they had left, that they will only receive love and affirmation if they [00:35:00] transition. And it seems pretty obvious that that's what's happened. If the mom was already dressing them in all women's clothing. At the age of three and put them on puberty blockers by the age of nine. And as a trans person, If you want your community to ever be accepted. If you want your community to be accepted by the mainstream political body of this country. You need to be attacking these people before they enter the right wing media, you need to be attacking them louder and more vociferously than anyone on the right. Because no same thinking person is going to support a movement that is doing stuff like this to children.Malcolm Collins: and keep in mind, you know, if you divorce someone, this is why it's so critical to not marry someone you want to divorce.How vindictive they can be along these lines, because it's like an instant win. You side with this dominant cultural group, you win your kids, and you win the income, the additional income that that provides you. And another thing I noticed, a lot of people who are outsiders, they're like, why would [00:36:00] a kid do this?Don't they understand how, you know a lot of people look when they, when they transition like this. And it's because that's not the way they're contextualizing transition. They're contextualizing transition around two things. One is online celebrities who have transitioned, but use a lot of editing to look very, very passing, even when they do not actually look passing in real life.Dylan Mulvaney is a great example of this. ContraPoint is also a great example of this. These individuals don't really look passing if you see them outside of the completely dolled up context of extra makeup, extra lighting, any additional editing, because they're in this environment. And so they Well, this is a prettySimone Collins: universal phenomenon.A lot of aspirational figures of any type. And this is like, whether you're a super, like masculine weightlifter guy online, or whether you're a super sexualized like model, female model online. Like there's a lot of Photoshopping that like makes everyone think that. [00:37:00] Some unattainable reality is actually attainable ifMalcolm Collins: they do the right thing.Nobody really passes, except for East Asian, well, Asian young men or young women after they transition. That's the one group where I really see passing. But keep in mind that they don't pass forever. Like as they get older, this ability to pass typically degrades after about 20 years. It's like a tattoo or something like that.You know, it, it, it degrades pretty quickly. But the other thing here is that they are defining what they think they will be like trans. And you see this within the trans community, off of anime characters, what they are actually attempting to transition into is an online avatar as represented by an anime girl, which is something that they can never become.And this is actually, I find to be the core difference between the trans cult and the real trans movement. Do they identify with anime avatars? Or do they [00:38:00] identify with however they actually look?Simone Collins: This is so funny because one of the reasons why I became anorexic was, like, primarily, like, the media I consumed was anime and manga.And I was constantly looking at these, like, characters that were obviously very skinny and who did not have western bodies. And it made me hate my body even more. So that isMalcolm Collins: interesting for me. Well, talk about it. You couldn't find any, like, bras that fit you in Japan, for example. Yeah,Simone Collins: well, nothing, I mean, nothing, actually a lot of clothes took me in Japan, but yeah, like, but, you know, I was, I was aspiring to a morphology that couldn't, I could not achieve, period in my, in my body dysmorphia, and I, it's interesting that you point that out, that like, Anime girls are a common denominator, a common villain behindMalcolm Collins: all this.No, he's not a villain, and I think people overly may accuse Anime,Simone Collins: you know I'm not accusing anime girls. I'm sorry, Malcolm, excuse me.Malcolm Collins: We love anime. Transformation is a common theme within anime. No,Simone Collins: I'm not Transformation has nothing to do with [00:39:00] this, it's just that they're pretty, and they'reMalcolm Collins: cool.No, I think you're missing the point here. I think that that they use completely fictionalized iterations of themselves within environments where that is normal. And, and in online environments today, and this is something that the previous generation didn't have to deal with. They don't realize the threat of this.They don't need to actually pass in the same way that trans people in the past needed to pass. Their voice needs to pass and their character needs to pass. You know, whether you're using AI filters or, or anime filters and stuff like that, because they are. Fighting for status hierarchy. They are fighting for approval as any human would, right?Like that's what we all do. The problem is, is this creates unrealistic expectations around what happens after transition and overly rosy expectations around what happens after transition. So that individuals go into transition, expecting things that just aren't. [00:40:00] Likely not going to happen. And it's a problem when this is oversold.Because when you are a guy and you are constantly denigrated by society.Simone Collins: Oh yeah. And when you're a guy and you hit puberty, I think. Hold on. I just want to emphasize that when you're a guy and you hit puberty, it's very different from women. Like I think women are more likely to feel a lot of body dysmorphia and a lot of like, really like big discomforts with what their body's doing.Whereas like men, I feel like one thing that's under discussed when a man hits puberty is that, Oh, guess what? The world is going to screw you over now. Everything's going to be harder. all the standards for you are harder. Everything's more competitive. You're, you're kind of treated by society as disposable.You do not get any special treatment. Why would you not want to transition in the face of that?Malcolm Collins: I mean, really? Well, yeah. And I think that this is something that people don't talk about because they're afraid of talking about it. Right. With, within conservative circles, this idea that as a guy, you might have any sort of gender questions as you're going through puberty.Is like, you don't talk about that because it lowers your [00:41:00] status within conservative circles. But I'd say gender dysmorphia is actually very normal for men as they go through puberty. The idea of wouldn't it all be so much easier if I was just the otherSimone Collins: gender? And wouldn't, I mean, honestly though, women haveMalcolm Collins: it easier.And men have the ability to emulate. a female mindset. You're like, Oh, wouldn't it be easier if I was taking on this other role within sexual interactions? And then can I use that? What people don't realize is that while there are real trans people who have these parts of themselves, okay, that are just loud and screaming at them constantly without interacting, without being elevated by an outside group.Right. These parts of you can be elevated in almost any individual. Male or female if your social group is affirming them, but the problem is is that they can then come to dominate you And they can come to dominate you in a [00:42:00] way that hurts you that wouldn't have hurt you had you not engaged with it In the same way that something like cocaine or heroin like yeah, okay Once you do that for the first few times then yes, it does really make you feel better And yes, it does become a part of your life But if you had just known the first First time somebody dropped this on you to say, no, thank you.I'm not engaging with this peer group anymore. I see that if I do continue to engage with this peer group, it will cause long term damage. You kids need to learn that, but the only way. To convince them of that, right, is to have an alternate ideology or an alternate world framework that contrasts with the urban monoculture, because this is, like the priest class, the highest caste of the urban monoculture.And so If you don't have an alternate framework that is actually compelling against that and people are like, why do you work so hard to create like your own religion for your family? That seems insane. And it was like, because I had seen what happens to the little Protestants and the little Catholics who go [00:43:00] to school without any alteration.Well, butSimone Collins: hold on. So yeah, like, I was going to say a lot of parents who. Might hear this would just think, well, okay, great. Like I am, you know, our family, we're devout Catholics. We're devout Protestants. We're devout Baptists. We're devout Muslims. Like, well, wait, are Muslims people who practice Islam or is that like an ethnicity?Malcolm Collins: They need to take the criticisms and the, the, the apologetics against their religion seriously and, and not be like, well, I never questioned it for X reason. The things that caused you to question a cultural system when you were in your teens, if you're presented with it. regularly and competently by a majority cultural group that is opposed to you are going to be very different from the things that cause you to question as an adult.And a lot of them default to the answers that earn them credit within their social hierarchies as adults that are majority that [00:44:00] religion or majority that cultural system. HoldSimone Collins: on. I don't know if you answered my question. Like a lot of people think that their religious culture is strong and therefore their kids won't be.Malcolm Collins: Okay. Yeah. And what I'm saying is, how do I know your religious culture isn't strong? Is it traditional evangelical Protestantism? Is it traditional Catholicism? Is it traditional Islam? If it's traditional, then it is not strong. Those are the cultures being molested.I would note here that I have seen traditional cultures work when the only people your kids interact with. Up until they're around the age of 21. Are other people from your cultural group, but even then, you know, I've seen people go wildly off the rails when they come from traditional cultures, because they just don't have good defenses. Do these more modern, , antagonistic memetic sets.And this actually is something we might do a full episode on in the future.But it's very interesting when I look at the religions that are hit by declining fertility rates, [00:45:00] typically the age of the religious tradition correlates to how severely it's going to be hit by declining fertility rates with very old religious systems like Hinduism and Buddhism, having very, very low fertility rates or within the. Christian traditions. You know, Catholicism and Orthodox having fairly low fertility rates. , while Protestants have middling fertility rates and Mormons, while they're still falling, have higher fertility rates and Amish have higher fertility rates. , with Amish, actually being a very young tradition for people who don't know that they're only like 200 years old, 300 years old.Simone Collins: Okay. So basically the, the only way that you know, that you've built a strong culture that will actually.Prevent your kid from succumbing to essentially like an incorrect transitioning as a result of just, you know, body dysmorphia, general body dysmorphia. That's not actually veryMalcolm Collins: normal during periodSimone Collins: routine. Yeah. [00:46:00] So like, if, if you don't have, if you have a traditional culture. You are not protected and what you need to do to protect yourself is in some very carefully curate your kids friends groups and make sure they have a very good emotional support network to broker them through puberty in a way that won't lead them in directions that you think will be very damaging to make sure that they understand from the get go that when people say that this is the easy answer, it's not.And here are the reasons why. Right. And what, what else would you advise?Malcolm Collins: Well, no, I think engaging with, so historically you didn't need to understand the arguments against Christianity when you're in majority Christian communities. You didn't need to understand if you engage with these attacks against your cultural system as if you are just engaging them to argue against them, you won't fully appreciate them.You need to engage with them as [00:47:00] if you believe them, as if you were persuaded by them. Attempt to steel man them, not straw man them. Because if you don't, then you will not understand the impact they have on your children. Cultural systems that survive by simply isolating themselves will not survive. The, the, the stressors that you are undergoing in modern civilization are very different than they are historically.And then in addition, I say there's another, there's a group of people who listen to this and say, but I'm just purely secular. Well, you have to understand, being secular may as well be in a cult today, if what you're listening to is the research. Because the psychologists, the people who run your, your schools, they don't listen to the research anymore.They don't listen to data anymore. They listen to cultural extremist viewpoints and they're increasingly taking over the institutions that output the research. So secularity is no longer an option. Secularity is an extremist cult and being an extremist cult, [00:48:00] you need to find out how to defend your kids around that, but also how to teach your kids to hide it, you know, many religious systems.And this is something I often see when people teach their kids just secularity, secularity. The kids go out and they just repeat the studies to these groups and they don't realize that that's what gets them crucified. You need to teach your kids to not engage with the groups, but also hide from them their real perspectives.Because if they don't, they will get crucified, they won't get into college, they can even get arrested.Simone Collins: Right. So if you as conservative views, teach them how to code switch at school to appear progressive so that they don't become ostracized and hated and therefore find themselves deeply unhappy in school.Right?Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You, they need to learn to code switch. Just appearing conservative all the time doesn't work anymore. It needs to be like our society is controlled by a cult. How do I interact with that cult in a way that doesn't end up with me getting crucified. Because that's the [00:49:00] basic reality of kids growing up today.They are in a society that's controlled by an aggressive cult that wants to stamp out anyone who shows immunity to its mimetic subset.Simone Collins: I love that. So the, the gist to or the, the answer to parents who are like really deeply concerned about bathrooms in their schools is don't worry about the bathrooms, make sure your kid has great friends that you trust and respect.Talk with them in a sober minded and respectful fashion about what actually is happening culturally and what may tempt them to do things that could be really damaging to them over the long term. And don't straw man it, steel man it, and then third. Teach your child how to act progressive in school environments so that they can thrive and be socially accepted.And probably also thrive in the modern professional world if that's where they want to go. VeryMalcolm Collins: interesting. You'll man the science here. These individuals who do not teach their kids about like, if you teach your kids about LGBT [00:50:00] culture and you are doing that in a way that demonizes that culture.You are dooming your children. You need to treat it with respect as other humans, as if it was just another religious subsect, the same way that, you know, Jews and, and, and that affirms that they may have attraction models or stuff like that, that are different from those that are approved within your culture, because people are changing.We know this from the tide studies. These, these arousal patterns are much more common in the younger generation. So you need to not be overly antagonistic towards them, but find out how to make them work within your cultural system. Right? A kid coming to you and saying, I think I'm a, like a man, you have a male child.And they're like, I think I'm attracted to men. You, if, if your default response to that is, then I reject you. You've lost. You've lost. You've just lost. If you say, well, love the sinner but hate the sin, no, [00:51:00] that doesn't work anymore. You need to find realistic ways of engaging with this, and you need to educate them before they hear about all of this from individuals who want to use it to drive a wedge between them and their birth culture to create a cult.And in termsSimone Collins: of what not to do don't shelter your child, do not denigrate this, this other culture or the concept of becoming trans or anything else. Like, and honestly, like another big instinct that teenagers feel is rebellion. If you basically say. Here's what you can do to make me absolutely furious.Guess what? You're setting yourself up for some trouble. Right. So, we're going to have to be careful.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And understand that this isn't like things in the past, you know, like I was a hardcore, like goth punk scene kid, you know, Simone underwent her own cultural rebellion. [00:52:00] This is if there was a. A cultural subset for teens that once you joined, you couldn't leave.Simone Collins: Yeah. So make sure, you know, any rebellion that you do drive your kids to is one that does not lead to permanent. Life changes that they cannot reverse. Yeah we'll see how things evolve as our kids reach that scary adolescent phase and I'm excited to seeMalcolm Collins: how it plays out. And final thing I suggest is when people are like, why do you do these track videos?Why do you do this? We are religious stuff. We are trying to create a cultural subset that's resistant. To these sorts of memetic self replicants and or memetic prions, whatever you want to call it. And. We want to create one that can be used by people within the Abrahamic faith traditions as sort of a backup religion for their kids and the family that were like Judaism, the backup religion for our kids as the approved alternative to the urban monoculture.Because if you are only selling them your own culture, you, you, you, you, you've created an incredibly weak [00:53:00] circumstance. Well, the alternative to your culture is the urban monoculture.Simone Collins: I like it. And I like you. I loveMalcolm Collins: you.Simone Collins: God, I'm so excited. Um, I just spoke with a journalist, um, as a politician running for office or whatever, the attempted politician, and at the end of the call, he said, wow, you know, I've had a lot of these interviews because his whole thing is covering state policy in Pennsylvania. Um, and this, this felt like a real conversation.This was really unique. And I'm like thinking, what are your calls like with the other people running for office? Is it like, are they, are they talking to you in binary code? Is it just like, no,Malcolm Collins: I think they're talking like bureaucrats. I mean, you've seen these people, right? They're just like, these are my point.And they're afraid of negative stuff coming back to hit them.Simone Collins: Oh yeah, I did. He did say that right after I was like, by the way. [00:54:00] If you want to just eviscerate me, go for it. Like, negative coverage is welcome. Do not feel guilty. Um, but yeah, like, wow, that's interesting. Maybe, or maybe they are actually robots.He's a robot! He has no feeling! He can't feel anything! They're just robots, Morty. It's okay to shoot them, they're robots.I love you, Shadow! Glenn's bleeding to death! Someone call his wife and children! They're not robots, Rick! It's a figure of speech, Morty. They're bureaucrats. I don't respect them.Malcolm Collins: But it's true, I mean You know, who, who minds you have to shoot a few bureaucrats to get out of a building. Well, I'm actually going to use this at the end of a different video because it doesn't really go with this topic.I'm talkingSimone Collins: to you, Malcolm. I, we haven't started recording. Well, no, we have started recording it because I don't want to forget.Malcolm Collins: Uh, well, I love that. Um, it, what, what local journal was it for? OhSimone Collins: God, I don't remember.Malcolm Collins: Well, [00:55:00] one day the age of Trump will be over and then there will be, uh, who knows what happens next with the conservative party and maybe you could become aSimone Collins: leading . And then we will broker in the age of Kanye. Although what we really need, we don't need the age of Kanye. We need the age of Dwayne the Rock Johnson.Um, but. I just don't know if that's gonna happen. You know, like,Malcolm Collins: in some, like, progressive y documents, from, like, they actually talk about, like, the age of Aquarius? Are you? No. No. Yeah. Yeah, I think it was important to, like, the, the, Theosophical Society, which has, like, an outsized impact and a lot of, uh, progressive policy that people areSimone Collins: looking for.I, I would love if, like, conservatives made conspiracy theories around that instead of the Great Reset, where they were like, you gotta watch out. The age of Aquarius is what they're trying to broker in now.Malcolm Collins: You're not listening to the right conspiracy theorists. That's your problem, Simone. It is. [00:56:00] Yeah,Simone Collins: I guess it is.Sorry,This inbuilt was actually recorded before one of our track videos. And in that very video, somebody posted something about the age of Aquarius and Simone was so excited to show me afterwards and she's like, oh, we should've left it in. We should have left it in. And then I was like, yeah, but then you wouldn't know that it was a coincidence that people are still on about that conspiracy theory. Or, I don't know, hippie theory.Malcolm Collins: I was playing into our connection. Also, John's replacing the, uh, thing downstairs rightSimone Collins: now. Oh my god, yay!Malcolm Collins: Amazing! So, yay. All right. I'm about to get started, Simone. So, I hope you are ready. Get full access to Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm at basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe