The Jason & Scot Show - E-Commerce And Retail News

EP317 - Amazon Q4 Results Episode Summary: In this episode, Jason Goldberg and Scot Wingo dive deep into Amazon's fourth-quarter results for 2023, analyzing the company's performance in various segments such as retail, offline and online sales, marketplace, AWS, and advertising. They also explore the impact of AI on Amazon's business and provide insights into the company's future guidance for Q1 2024. Amazon had a strong Q4 earnings report, beating analyst expectations for revenue and income. In fact, it was Amazon's most profitable quarter ever. Retail sales were up 6%, which imputes a 2023 GMV of $515B - $660B in the US for all of 2023. The bottom end of that estimate would be a 9% growth over 2023, versus all of Core Retail in the US (x Gas and Auto) which grew 3.6% in 2023. This impressive growth was achieved while Amazon improved delivery times (6B packages delivered next day, and 1B delivered same day, same day offered in 110 metros) and reduced cost to serve by $0.45/package in the US (the first reduction in cost to serve since 2018). AWS accelerated growth but slowly declined margins. Ad revenue was again the brightest spot, growing 27% to $14.7B, resulting in $47B in revenue the last 12 months, and a $58B run rate. The income generated from that ad revenue was likely more than $27B, far in excess of the $21B Amazon earned from AWS. Once again demonstrating that Ads are Amazons biggest income generator. Amazons total GMV in the US likely falls in-between Walmart's expected 2023 GMV of $442B and Walmart plus Sam's Club total US GMV of $519B. Walmart reports it's Q4 on Feb 20. Amazon probably represented 24% of ALL retail growth in the US in 2023. Amazon, Walmart, Temu, and Shein alone likely represented 49% of all 2023 Us retail growth (leaving mostly crumbs for the rest of retail). Amazon also announced Rufus, a new Gen AI based search amenity for the e-commerce site. Don't forget to like our facebook page, and if you enjoyed this episode please write us a review on itunes. Episode 317 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded on Wednesday, February 7th, 2024. http://jasonandscot.com Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of GetSpiffy and Co-Founder of ChannelAdvisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing. Transcript Jason: [0:23] Welcome to the Jason and Scott Show. This is episode 317 being recorded on Wednesday, February 7th, 2024. I'm your host, Jason Retail Geek Goldberg, and as usual, I'm here with your co-host, Scott Wingo. Scot: [0:38] Hey, Jason, and welcome back, Jason and Scott Show listeners. Jason, we've been talking about ARVR since before shop.org changed its name. And did you get a vision pro and how is it i. Jason: [0:57] Did not i feel like i've let you and our listeners down i desperately wanted to lie and say that we were recording this episode through our joint vision pros i did i did go do a demo and it it seems super cool i am sorting through my my highly poor vision to see what sort of corrective lenses i'll need to put into the thing, to pull the trigger. I heard yours has arrived though. Scot: [1:24] Yes, mine actually just came hours ago here to Jason and Scott, North Carolina headquarters. And it is sitting in a box staring at me. And I figured I would not get the show notes done if I started playing with that. So that's gonna be my weekend fun that I'm gonna work on. So I'll report back on that. Jason: [1:42] All of us that love you are slightly sad because we've seen your real eyes for probably the last time in a long while. Scot: [1:48] That is true yep yep these baby blues are going behind the goggles and i'm gonna drive the first thing i do is get in my car and drive that seems to be what everyone does on twitter so that'll be fun yeah. Jason: [1:59] That sounds wildly safe. Scot: [2:01] Yeah well you can see right through them so it's totally fun yeah. Jason: [2:05] No you can't. Scot: [2:09] Just kidding everyone do not do that at home and if you do blame jason Yeah. Jason: [2:13] But again, the Tesla is perfect self-driving anyway. So what, what would it even matter? It's like, I feel like you have multiple layers of AI overlords protecting you, Apple and Tesla. What could go wrong? Scot: [2:25] Yeah, it is not perfect by any means. Jason: [2:29] Yeah i'm glad we caught you i feel like there there's been a lot of travel and it's i know you you have kind of stepped away from the hustle bustle but i'm right in the middle of uh retail trade quarter trade yeah yeah. Scot: [2:41] How's that going you did so we haven't been able to catch up since you've done nrf i saw you were like posting like a wild man seems like you had a very active big show how was that. Jason: [2:51] Yeah it was pretty good i would big show is definitely back it was the largest attendance ever. There were over 40,000 people. So it was very robust. A lot of good, good conversations. I do have a lot of content out there. If anyone wants a deep dive recap, you can go find my recap on YouTube, but maybe we'll talk more about it later because we have such a meaty episode just talking about Amazon. But last week I got back from like, frankly, a more fun event then big show. Our friends at Commerce Next have a new show that they call their Digital Leader Conference. And it's kind of a small little gathering of like 50 digital leaders at a resort in Del Mar, California, exactly where I grew up. So I went and drank wine and talk shop with a bunch of folks and the Commerce Next team in San Diego and had a great time nice. Scot: [3:49] Did you have some say in where it was hosted you're okay i. Jason: [3:52] Did not um i think people were tired of hearing me say this but this is like a fairmont resort it's gorgeous but it was built on like what used to be like these trails behind my high school and i kept you know regaling everyone with how i probably thrown up all over this this facility from all the the runs our soccer coaches used to make us do there. Scot: [4:14] Nice that's a good pitch yeah. Jason: [4:16] Nice visual for all our good uh good podcast listeners uh and then i have two shows coming up so the end of this month is etail west which is usually a pretty good show in palm springs we'll probably be uh corralling a couple interesting podcast guests uh from that show and there's kind of a shop.org board reunion There was an actual shop.org board reunion that you and I missed that was last month, but there's like six former board members will be at ETL West. So we're going to get together and have a little catch up there. And then less than a month after that is our Shop Talk in Las Vegas. Scot: [4:59] Fun. Yeah. Have you had an opportunity to see the Sphere? Yeah, I have. Jason: [5:04] I have. I have not been in the Sphere, but I have gone by it. Hopefully, I'll be prominently featured on it for Shop Talk. Seems like that would be appropriate. Scot: [5:14] Yeah, yeah. That would be fun. Get a picture of you on this here and then go inside. Everyone says it's an amazing show inside of there. Jason: [5:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I definitely want to check it out when time permits. Scot: [5:23] Cool. Are you speaking at either of those or just all of you? Oh, wow. Are you seems like a part of your your 2024 New Year's resolution is to talk about Sheehan and Timu. Are you going to be doing that that whole dog and pony over there? Jason: [5:39] Neither of my sessions are specifically on that. I'm sure I'm talking about it a lot in the hallways. It's coming up a lot. It's probably spoiler alert going to come up again in this Amazon earnings call. Scot: [5:52] Yeah and we've got the super bowl this is like we're annualizing the big timu reveal and so it'll be interesting to see if they i guess they've actually said i think it's an article that said they're coming back in a big way so yeah. Jason: [6:03] They bought a second ad so. Scot: [6:04] They will they will be back on a few have you seen like a super secret version, uh i cannot say oh okay oh okay oh all right exciting well it would not be a jason scott show without some Amazon news. And this whole episode is essentially Amazon news. We are going to do a Amazon fourth quarter earnings deep dive. That's right. On February 1st, Amazon announced their fourth quarter 2023 results. The setup coming into this one was we had Microsoft announce really solid cloud results that was largely driven by AI. People are moving their workloads to Azure and they are doing that to get their data over. And due to Microsoft's partnership with OpenAI, that has been a really nice big draw for their cloud offering. Then we had Meta announced, the artist previously known as Facebook, and they had tremendous ad performance, largely driven by AI. Long-term listeners will remember Jason and I, I'm pretty sure we're some of the first to call the impact of this thing called ATT and IDFA, Am I remembering that? You nailed them. Jason: [7:24] Yeah. Scot: [7:25] Yep. And that just really, that was like, what, four years ago, three years ago? That walloped Facebook, Snap, and all these companies that their ad system relied on cookies and third-party data. data. Facebook slash Meta has kind of come back from that and they credit it to AI systems they've used that have really driven the optimization of their advertising products and made the targeting basically nearly as good as it was when they had more precise targeting. Then Google was kind of like had a bit of a rough patch there. I think it's hurting them. They don't really disclose much about youtube and it probably did okay but their ads were kind of flat and their cloud computing did not see the benefit that that microsoft did and there's a growing concern there's more and more folks and some data coming out that shows that people are starting to use ais for interesting searches versus google i do find we were talking about it before we got got on here, I am using it more and more. For example, I was telling Jason, I found OpenAI slash ChatGPT announced this little, it's not a store, but a... [8:39] Add-ons or like almost like an app store but it's called gpts and i found one that enables me to load a bunch of pdfs on a common topic and then just like ask chat gpt about it and yeah so so i found i'm using it more and more for informational queries just generally and then also for things like that like research for work and and for the pod and so i think i think there's a growing concern that google is watching this ai thing kind of like run away from them and there's There's growing talk that they're stuck in an innovator's dilemma. So that was the setup. And the market was kind of nervous coming into Amazon earnings because a big chunk of Amazon is the cloud, which is their AWS segment. And then folks, we really didn't have any great idea how their holiday sales were. And then last, that Google piece made people a little nervous about the ad business, which has become almost a third leg to the Amazon stool. tool. So, and then as you keep kind of pointing out, Timu and Sheehan are just like really on the rise and could they, you know, you also have said, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you've said, you know, you don't think they're being impacted by it too much. That is some other folks. But, you know, there's definitely overlap there. So people worried, are those up and rising stars going to be the Grinch? So we're going to walk you through that and peel the onion. [10:01] We're then we're going to go into how the retail offline and online did and then marketplaces cloud AWS. And that's where we'll talk about AI. You can't talk about anything now without talking about AI. So we'll hit that and then Amazon ads and then kind of finish up with how Amazon guided to next quarter, which will be Q2 Q1 of 2024. Anything you want to add in that setup before we jump in? Jason: [10:28] No, I think you've queued it up well. I'm eager to hear how Amazon did. Scot: [10:32] Yeah, well, it is what in the Wall Street world we would call a beat. So they, you know, back in Q3, they set some guidance and they beat that on the top and bottom line very handily. And then I would call it a raise. It was kind of a slight raise. They raised the range. Amazon has gotten very good, especially in the Jassy era of not getting too ahead of their skis on expectations. Expectations so but now that we're you know a fair amount into the Jassy area Wall Street's starting to get his number so now Wall Street's not really believing the guidance it's kind of interesting phenomena that we'll talk about when we get to that part but that's you know if we're going to characterize it it was a win and a win so it was a win on the pass quarter which is Q4 and it was a win going into Q1 and you know Amazon historically if you've been following it as long as jason i have they go through these periods of what i call invest and harvest so they'll invest and invest and invest everyone's like gosh and then people think all right there's no way this thing's going to be either profitable at all or as profitable as it once was or whatever it is they start to lose faith and then amazon goes into a harvest phase and then they just print money and it always surprises people and they're able to do that and that's what what But this quarter really is kind of the –. [11:49] Output of focusing on that a lot in 2023 where they kind of had this post-coveted hangover they had overbuilt a bunch of stuff and now it feels like they have righted that they've stopped a lot of the things that since jesse came in that maybe were investment areas that they shouldn't have been investing in and and they've got a lot of discipline on expenses and that has turned out really well so those numbers work is revenue came in at 170 billion and wall street had 166 billion So that's a beat of a mere $4 billion, which is very good. That represents 14% year-over-year growth. Operating income came in at 6.1%, which is the highest since 2019. So they're kind of back in pre-COVID shape, if you will, and doing better than pre-COVID. So that's good to see. Operating income came in at $13.2 billion, and Wall Street had $10.4. So this was a pretty big beat. it's only three billion ish but you know that's a 30 percent beat so that's a that's a nice win when you can deliver 30 more profit than wall street's looking for so all that was really good so jason how did you think that the retail and offline online parts of the business did. Jason: [13:03] Yeah well it was certainly a good part you know reminder amazon reports their online sales which which is a global number, and Amazon's in a different set of countries than anyone else. So you almost can't compare it to any other retailer because there's no retailer that does business in the same geographies as Amazon. And that online stores has their first party sales in it, and it has just the profit from their third party sales in it. So it's not a real GMV number, but that number was over 70 billion, like 70.5 billion versus 68.6 billion. So that was up 6%. That was a beat for Wall Street. Physical stores were 5.1 billion, which is slightly down. So that was one of the few misses in there. [13:52] What I suspect most of our listeners are more interested in is if you convert all those sales into a GMV number and you strip out just the U.S. So you can kind of compare it to other U.S. retailers. What does that look like? And there's a number of different estimates out there. One that we pulled was Citibank's. So the Citibank estimate for total GMV for the year was $904 billion. billion, the US portion of that would be like $659 billion. And that implies that the third party sales were particularly profitable. So I'll call that a optimistic estimate. And then Marketplace Pulse did an estimate using a much more conservative figure for how profitable third party sales that was largely based on the one year Amazon really really told us what the numbers were, which was 2018, right? And so based on those kind of 2018 ratios, Marketplace polls estimated that global GMV is about 700 billion, US GMV would be 510 billion. So that's up, if we take that conservative number, the 510 billion, that would be up 9% from the previous year. All of retail in the United States grew 3.6%. So 9% growth for one of the largest retailers in the market is terrific. [15:20] We'll talk a little bit more about what that might mean, but they also, they had some other interesting successes in the retail business. They talked about the, it was their fastest speed of service ever. So you know, we've talked in previous quarters about how they really shifted from a national fulfillment network to these regional fulfillment models so that packages would be staged closer to the consumers that bought them. And they said this quarter that 7 billion packages, or I'm sorry, for the whole year, 7 billion packages were delivered next day or same day. A billion packages were delivered same day. And there are now 110 metro areas in the United States that get same day delivery. So I still talk to other retailers all the time that talk about competing with Amazon's offer. And they always talk about two day delivery. And the reality is that's not the Amazon offer anymore. They're same day in 110 metros, and they delivered $7 billion packages in zero to one days. So speed of service, super impressive. And while they got faster, they also got more efficient. So for the first time since 2018, they actually reduced their cost to serve, the total cost to get a package to a customer. And so in the US, they said the cost to serve went down by 45 cents a package. package. So that's a pretty meaningful cost reduction. [16:45] Volume went up, which sometimes makes it easier to be cost efficient, but, you know, to actually get better service and lower your costs at the same time is an impressive feat and a big win for Amazon, which, you know, probably contributed a lot to that particularly high operating income, which I'm not sure if you mentioned, but I think that's the highest operating income they've ever announced. Scot: [17:06] Yeah. Yep. It's pretty good. They're actually profitable now. Just saying they've been profitable a long time. Jason: [17:12] Yeah. Yeah. So for all of our, our friends that don't think Amazon's profitable, the, so overall you have to call that, that a really good quarter on the retail sales side. Scott, did you kind of do a deeper dive in how much of that was the marketplace versus 1P? Scot: [17:30] Yeah. It was interesting. You read your GMV data and Scott Devitt, he's at Wedbush now. He's a longtime friend of the pod. He also put out his number and he came in around that market pulse side. So more like the 700 billion combined. Those numbers are 1P plus 3P? Yeah. Is that right? Yeah. Okay. And global. Yeah. So he was in the same zone. And what I found was interesting is because we're heading into 24, he pushed his forecast for GMV. He's the only one I've seen that forecast GMV. And it's obviously driven from like the revenue. So he kind of takes the revenue growth rate and uses that to kind of like get to the growth rate of GMV. [18:08] But he pushed it out to 2025. And then if I push it out one more year, just kind of using the same, what I think he's doing, it crosses a trillion dollars. If you could wrap your head around that. I remember you and I, one of the first discussions we ever had was about this frustration that people didn't understand this GMV thing and they were underestimating. You know, you'd see these charts that showed maybe Amazon never catches up to Walmart. And at that point, you know, Amazon was at a hundred billion and Walmart was at 400 loosely. Maybe that's the ex-grocery. I can't remember the specifics. This is going back like seven, eight years. And now we're at a point where not only have they crossed them from GMV perspective, but even revenue is crossing Walmart or very close to it. And there's a shot at a trillion dollars of transactional flow going through Amazon between 1P and 3P. That's pretty, that's crazy. Like, and it makes sense. You drive around anywhere. All you see is Amazon last mile delivery and long haul, you know, trucks. There's just like the economic impact of what they're doing is monumental. Jason: [19:13] Yeah, it's crazy. I remember when the first e-commerce sites sort of passed the billion dollar mark and how amazing that felt. Yeah, yeah. This thing could work. Scot: [19:22] Work this thing has legs exactly they thought we were crazy yeah. Jason: [19:29] Um so you know normally the narrative is all this retail stuff loses money but that's okay because aws is so profitable and if if there was like any sort of cautionary tale in this earnings call at all i would say it was aws the growth was decent right like what the i think the the estimates were 11 to 15 and they came in right in the middle of that like 13 but the operating income actually went down slightly. So like that, that is a mild concern for some folks. If you, if you kind of convert AWS to it, the last, the trailing 12 months of revenue at, at there, I want to say it's like 24% or 24.1% gross margins. You generate about 40, $21 billion in, in operating income from AWS. So that, you know, 20 billion here, 20 billion there, it starts to add up. But as, as I quickly checked that that's significantly less income than for example, the ads business probably generated for them. So it's a good business. They are growing slower because they are the biggest player. They are growing slower than their competitor, certainly than Microsoft. And it, And their profitability did slightly tick down. [20:51] But on the exciting side, they talked about a lot of the AI workloads that were moving to AWS and what a headwind that is. And one of the workloads they announced is Rufus, which is an e-commerce search engine that runs on Amazon. So, so that, that giant text box that we're all used to for finding our products and that's helping you find what, what SKU to buy amongst the 800 million SKUs available on Amazon is now rolling out a much smarter generative AI amenity that can help, help you find products with much more sophisticated searches. Scot: [21:33] Yeah. Yeah. I have not seen any screenshots of it or anything. Have you? Jason: [21:37] I saw a demo. though. I have not seen it in the wild yet. You know, they're not the first mover here, right? Like Instacart adopted a version of OpenAI pretty early. Walmart rolled it out in their iOS app at CES a few weeks before Amazon. And so it's funny, like, you know, Amazon, there are some rumors that some of the AI tools in Amazon aren't performing as well in internal tests as people would like. So there's some concerns about that. [22:11] What we'll probably have to do a deeper dive on another show is this whole interesting thing as all the text boxes that you can enter text in and e-commerce are moving from keyword searches to these ai engines customers have to re-learn how to use them and right now they're not right and so you know you go to the walmart app and you know it's a generative ai search engine but you still type the same same you know basic keywords in that you always have and so i'm kind of interested in the long run, is that really where the AI is going to live in these e-commerce sites? Or will we have, you know, sort of a different amenity for doing these more intent based searches than we do for the keyword searches? Or will people just learn how to use them different? I don't know. It's a TBD thing as the world evolves right now. [23:02] But you also alluded to the ads business. That was definitely another bright spot. They sold 14.7 billion dollars of ads which was above the wall street estimate it's a 27 growth year over year and so if you look at the trailing 12 months that's like 30 billion dollars 27 billion in ad sales if you look at a run rate if that fourth fourth quarter number were to go four consecutive quarters it's a 58 billion dollar run rate so they are they're like a clear third largest digital ad platform in the United States and rapidly gaining ground on the other two. And the most conservative estimate I've ever seen for this business is that it's 60% gross margin. At 60% gross margin over the trailing 12 months, the ads business contributed $28 billion billion in operating income to Amazon versus the 21 billion for AWS. So ads was $7 billion more profitable than AWS over the last 12 months. Scot: [24:08] Yeah. That would be net margin, I think you meant to say. Jason: [24:11] Yeah. Sorry. And in fun fact, they also announced this little thing called Prime Video Ads, which which, you know, is a huge new source of revenue for them. And that is expected to tack on another like six and a half billion over the next 12 months or 24 months. So like there's a lot of upside still in the ad business for Amazon. Scot: [24:37] Yeah it's gonna be crazy back on marketplaces i skipped a couple data points because i was so excited about the trillion dollars the as far as the quarter they they kind of have a couple of things that they report on you know the gmv we we we talked about analysts have to kind of back into and they use this one data point to kind of triangulate the things they do tell us is there's this piece called third-party seller services and that's basically you know where they make money from prime and other things of that nature and that grew 20 percent year-over-year beat estimates it was everyone was thinking 42 billion and it came in at 43 and change and then the other thing they tell us is units and that's tricky because you don't know the relevant price of a third-party unit in a first party so you can't just assume it's 61 of revenue that that's a little trick in there that that's that's why the analysts have to do some different math to get in there but third Third party was 61% of units in the fourth quarter. Last year, you have to look at year over year because of the seasonality. It was 59. So that's up 2%. So more and more products that they're selling are third party, which is, you know, just juices their margins that much more. Jason: [25:46] Yeah. Just looking at the Citibank model for that, Scott, it would be seven globally. It would be like 71% of total GMV is third party. Scot: [25:55] Yeah. Jason: [25:55] By revenue. Scot: [25:56] Yeah. Jason: [25:57] Yeah. Scot: [25:57] Yeah, because first party, back when I was modeling this, I've since abandoned that because the Wall Street guys do a better job than I ever could. Jason: [26:04] Their spreadsheets are a lot prettier, for sure. Scot: [26:07] Yes, it was similar. It would add about 10 points because the AOV on first party is relatively low compared to third party because of all the books and digital little things that they have that are a dollar here, a dollar there kind of things. Things okay so then we go into next year with the guidance and they guided the top line 138 to 143. This was Wall Street's consensus is in the middle but they really raised the top end of this and it gives it a growth band of eight to thirteen percent and what's happened in the jassy era is it either comes in right at the top or a notch or two above so Wall Street thinks that you know While the midpoint was aligned with what they're thinking, many of them have bumped up their, models to the 143. [26:58] And then also the similar kind of situation on operating income, Amazon raised it a fair amount more. And then what that did is it increased the price targets. And the stock has been on a really nice tear since earnings, thanks to this. And I think AWS wasn't what everyone wanted to see, but. [27:16] It reaccelerated growth, which folks want to see, and it doesn't feel like they're losing AI. I do think Microsoft's got more buzz, but at least they're in the game. Whereas I think people are starting to worry Google's not really. Google's talking a good game with Bard, but they're really slow to put stuff out. Like, you know, they announced this. What is it? Ultra version. Bard has three flavors, and, you know, they're way behind on each one they've announced. They're behind weeks or months on. And then the last one is, like, really taking a long time. So everyone's like really starting to worry about Google's ability to execute quickly. And, you know, so I would say the winners of this earnings season were definitely Meta, Amazon, Microsoft up in kind of a league of their own, and then Google and some of the others. I think Snapchat, I don't follow them this close, but I think they had a really rough quarter. So there's definitely an interesting AI has thrown a whole new mix into how these big, you know, either trillion dollar mega super mega caps are doing or meta is not in that discussion. It's a little bit smaller, but these big some people call them the significant seven. And they when they say that on CNBC, they're throwing NVIDIA in there and a couple others. But, you know, AI has just changed the game in the last year. It's been amazing. Jason: [28:30] Yeah, for sure. Sure. And they, you know, along those lines, they also announced a bunch of sort of AI-driven new inventions at Amazon. So we talked a little bit about Rufus. They, they have part of that reducing that cost of service. They have a lot of smarter robots in the fulfillment centers that are like interfacing with humans more and doing more stuff like that. And I saw they had one, one AI innovation right in your space, right? Like they're using AI to inspect respect all the Amazon vans and identify any service needs before the vans break down. Scot: [29:02] Yeah yeah yeah these these last mile vans are they get pretty beat up as you can imagine sure you know being in Chicago you see how they can that can be pretty bunged up and all kinds of things happen so, you know they it's interesting I've been to tour several of these because we work on them at my day job spiffy and it's pretty wild we don't have time to go into it maybe we can do a whole pot on on it. But anyway, they, they line them up and drive them through a single area. And they have this like arch of cameras that they put them through. And I imagine that's what that system is. It's, it's using this kind of 300, almost like a ring of cameras that the vans drive through, and they must be using the AI to detect what's going on there. Jason: [29:45] Yeah it's crazy um so anything else jump out at you on specific on the amazon earnings because i wanted to take a last minute to kind of put these amazon earnings in context for the rest of us retail but i want to make sure i didn't miss anything you wanted to. Scot: [30:00] Yeah one last thing in my little auto world that i live in now they kind of made a almost you know i haven't seen a lot of buzz about it i know you work a lot with the auto company so you're you're probably getting some feedback on it which is why i'm kind of curious but they announced hyundai is going going to start selling cars on Amazon. And for a long time, everyone's thought Amazon would maybe compete with Carvana or buy Carvana, some of Carvana's used cars. So it's like e-commerce for used cars. And a lot of Carvana's competitors, Vroom and Shift, have kind of hit the skids and actually are out of business now. And some people thought Amazon would buy them, but it looks like Like they're actually going to be maybe an ad unit or a showroom and then send, you could transact on Amazon or start your transaction on Amazon and then go to the dealer. So that has been, there's a lot of buzz in my world around that. And we keep hearing many more OEMs are coming and the dealers are, the Hyundai dealers I've talked to are very excited about this and expecting kind of a different customer than they're used to. And there's some prime tie-in there too, which is kind of interesting. So it's going to be interesting to see Amazon has their eyesight on this auto category and they're doing more and more in there. And it's going to be interesting to see what they do. Jason: [31:14] Oh, for sure. I have this giant deck of industries where the leaders in the industry would say like, oh man, e-commerce is amazing in these other industries, but here's why it will never be relevant in ours. And I think the car industry is the one that this is playing out in right now that, you know, they used to all say like, oh, there's never going to be e-commerce. People want to go to the dealers and drive it. And there's three tier distribution and all these things and it'll never happen. And you know, now it's certainly happening. Scot: [31:44] Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be interesting to see that. Jason: [31:46] Fun times. So I just want to put all this in a little bit of context. So before the pandemic, retail in the United States of America grew very consistently. 4.1% a year with some very minor deviations, but that's kind of what you expected just from normal inflation and the growth in the population, 4.1% a year. So then the pandemic happens. We mail out a couple trillion dollars in economic stimulus. We lock everyone in the house so they can't spend as much money on services. And we had the three greatest years in the history of retail. We grew 7.7% in 2020. We grew 13.6% in 2021, that's the best year of all times, and we grew another 8% in 2022. So those were those three crazy outlier years. So the end of 2022 comes and everyone's like, what's 2023 going to look like? [32:37] We just had these three years that were more than double the industry average. The NREF came out early in the year and said, hey, we're forecasting 4% to 6% growth. So bottom end of their range would be average, 6% would be sort of halfway to those last three years. So we now know what actually happened and we came in at 3.6% growth. So missed the NREF estimate, missed the traditional average, it's a down year. And this is $5 trillion is the total sales. So missing by half a percent is pretty meaningful. So all of retail grew 3.6%. If you convert that into a number, that's $180 billion more stuff we sold in 2023 than we did in 2022. [33:25] And the numbers I'm using for all this are retail without auto or gas in it, just because that's what the nrf calls core retail and it's kind of amazon doesn't sell a lot of cars or gas yet right so so amazon grew nine percent if we use that conservative gmv number for the us. [33:42] That means amazon alone grew 43 percent last year 43 billion dollars last year so amazon alone was 24 of all retail growth in the united states of america and they're the first or second largest retailer in the country and they grew a quarter of all growth which is pretty phenomenal Walmart also wildly outperform the industry they grew and there they won't announce their q4 till for a couple more weeks but assuming they they have like hit the low side of all the estimates so only 4% growth in q4 though that that'll bring them in at 6% growth for the year that means they They grew by $29 billion, which is 16% of that total growth last year. Then I keep talking about Timu and Shein. Timu only grew 3,100% last year, which is a pretty good growth rate. So they contributed $9.3 billion in growth, 5% of the total. And Shein grew 30%. So they contributed another $7 billion in growth, 4% of the total. So you just take those four retailers, Amazon, Walmart, Timu, and Shein. That's half of all U.S. retail growth last year. So those four companies had a terrific year, but they essentially left crumbs, for the rest of the retail industry in what without those four companies is pretty much a Debbie Downer year. Scot: [35:09] Yeah yeah it's amazing share there it's kind of crazy. Jason: [35:13] Yeah and it's it's just so weird to see the biggest two retailers in the market amazon and walmart growing faster than like almost anyone else that that to me is a a very anomalous circumstance that you you don't normally see, there is this super interesting horse race who is the biggest retailer in the u.s and the the sort of unfortunate answer is it depends a little bit on how you count because you you've got Walmart's total US GMV which we also don't know by the way because the there now is a meaningful marketplace at Walmart not as meaningful as as Amazon but like you know Walmart doesn't disclose its actual GMV. [35:59] But Walmart also has Sam's Club. And so if you take just Walmart's GMV and shoot, I thought I had the number in front of me, but now that I'm talking about it, I of course don't. But from memory, it was about $442 billion last year would be my estimate for their GMV after they announced that's their Q4. And so that would be lower than even the conservative estimate for Amazon's US GMV. If you add Sam's GMV in the US to Walmart's GMV in the US, Walmart gets to about $520 billion. So that would be above Marketplace Pulse's estimate for Amazon and below Citibank's estimate for Amazon. So no matter how you count, these two companies are very close. A few years ago, you and I were talking about Amazon being close to Walmart if you take grocery out, which grocery is 60% of Walmart sales. But now we're in a year where Amazon may have passed Walmart, but however you count, it's very close. And they're obviously continuing to grow faster than Walmart. So if it wasn't 2023, it likely will be 2024. That's the year that Amazon actually takes the title as the largest retailer in the US. Scot: [37:18] Yeah, it's crazy. We knew the day would come and here we are. Jason: [37:22] Exactly. So Scott, I feel like we nailed it. We targeted to have a slightly shorter show to just keep the meat in there and we have succeeded. Scot: [37:33] Yeah. Yeah. Thanks everyone for joining us. Don't forget, if you have a second, leave us a review. We'd really appreciate that. And. Jason: [37:41] Until next time, happy commercing!

The podcast discusses the progress of drone delivery and the hosts' excitement about witnessing real drone deliveries. They review their predictions for 2023 and evaluate their accuracy. They also discuss Amazon's potential strategies, Shopify's missteps, and the growth rates of retail and ecommerce. The hosts also share their predictions for the year 2024, including the relaunch of Alexa and the impact of e-commerce on the apparel space.

EP315 - 2023 Turkey5 Recap with Salesforces Rob Garf Episode 315 is a recap of Turkey5 (The five days from Thanksgiving through Cyber Monday) 2023 with Rob Garf, Vice President and General Manager, Retail at Salesforce. This is Robs' Six time on the show, having previously been on episodes 110, 248, 282, 299, and 313. Jason and Scot discuss the "Turkey 5" with their guest Rob Garf, VP and GM for retail at Salesforce. They analyze data from various sources to provide insights into the holiday shopping season. According to the U.S. Department of Commerce, e-commerce grew 7.75% in Q3, while total retail only grew 2%. Jason emphasizes the need for e-commerce to grow at least 7.7% in Q4 to stay on track. Adobe's data shows that Black Friday sales were up 7.5% and Cyber Monday sales were up 12.4% from the previous year. The speakers also discuss data from BigCommerce, MasterCard, and Salesforce, highlighting growth in online sales on Cyber Monday and Black Friday. Rob Garf adds his observations on retail industry trends, noting an increase in demand and robust pricing. He mentions a rebound in demand in Europe, excluding the UK, and highlights retailers' focus on profitability and inventory levels. The discussion then turns to Amazon's innovative advertising approach during a Friday NFL game, where shoppable ads were displayed via QR codes. Jason believes this strategy will benefit Amazon, as it monetizes viewership and reinforces the brand. Discounting played a significant role in driving demand during Cyber Week, with retailers offering an average of 30% off. Consumers were patient, waiting for attractive deals, while retailers managed their inventory and discounting strategies well. The luxury category, however, did not perform as strongly, with only a slight increase or even a decrease in sales. The hosts touch on the resale market and the growing popularity of Buy Now, Pay Later (BNPL) options and mobile wallets. They discuss the potential impact of mobile wallets on shopping behavior and note that BNPL resonates with new consumers and has replaced layaway. Finally, the hosts mention the passing of Charlie Munger and the filing of an IPO by Xi'an, encouraging listeners to support the show and announcing more holiday shopping data and reports on Salesforce.com. 0:00:46 Introduction to the Jason and Scot Show 0:05:04 Black Friday: First Sales for Vendors 0:14:06 Softness in Consumer Electronics and Toys Market 0:14:55 Black Friday and Cyber Monday Impact on Holiday Season Shape 0:16:32 Retailers' Inventory Management and Positive Growth Forecast 0:17:47 Retailers analyzing profitability and customer profitability. 0:18:29 Increase in Demand and Robust Pricing 0:22:34 Amazon's Innovative Advertising and Potential Profitability for Holiday 0:26:27 Discount rates over Cyber Week in comparison to previous years 0:29:04 Retailers' management of inventory and transparency in discounting strategy 0:31:52 Consumer behavior and the rise of Buy Now, Pay Later (BNPL) 0:33:32 Mobile wallets and the impact on checkout process and shopping experiences 0:35:26 Buy Now, Pay Later Growing and Replacing Layaway 0:37:22 Charlie Munger's Passing and Xi'an's IPO Announcement Throughout this episode make liberal use of real-time data from Salesforce Shopping Insights HQ, which tracks how 1.5+ billion consumers are shaping shopping trends. You can see a real-time holiday dashboard, powered by Tableau so you can interact with the data yourself on the Salesforce Holiday Insights page. Episode 313 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded on Tuesday November 28th, 2023. http://jasonandscot.com Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of GetSpiffy and Co-Founder of ChannelAdvisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing. Transcript Jason: [0:23] Welcome to the Jason and Scot Show. This is episode 315 being recorded on Tuesday, November 28th. I'm your host, Jason Retail Geek Goldberg, and as usual, I'm here with your co-host, Scot Wingo. Scot: [0:39] Hey, Jason, and welcome back, Jason and Scot Show listeners. Vigilant listeners will remember that we promised you a delicious turkey five Introduction to the Jason and Scot Show [0:47] sandwich starring none other than Rob Garf, VP and GM for retail at Salesforce. And that's what we're delivering today. Rob was here way back on episode 313 on November 8th. And he is back here today to tell us what happened during the Turkey 5. Welcome back, Rob. Rob: [1:05] Thanks for having me, Jason, Scot. Always a pleasure and look forward to getting into some of this really fun data. Scot: [1:12] Yeah, this is your record sixth time. So your old hat here. Before we jump in, we do want to just kind of set the table, keeping with the post-Thanksgiving, theme with some leftovers. I saw what you did there. Yeah. And we, meaning Jason and his army of interns, have gathered a bunch of data from other sources. So we just want to give listeners that, and we know you have your own data, and we want to paint a complete picture. So, Jason, give us the quick and dirty rundown of other data that we've seen out there covering the holiday period so far. Jason: [1:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's do it. And side note, Rob, we're going to keep making you come back till you get it right. Rob: [1:50] I appreciate it. I'm here. Jason: [1:52] I'll do what you need. Awesome. So, super quick reminder, Q3 data from the U.S. Department of Commerce, e-commerce for the quarter grew 7.75%, over, the previous year. year, total retail only grew 2% from the previous year. And so if you take e-commerce out of total retail, brick and mortar in Q3 2023 only grew 1.08%, so lower than traditional. So when you come into the beginning of Q4 and holiday in particular, in my mind, e-commerce has to grow at 7.7% just to stay at par. And brick-and-mortar has to grow more than that one percent. [2:37] So, and I like to start with the lesser data and work our way up to the gold standard, very best data we have, which is, of course, the Rob Garth. So our friends at adobe which have a different data set but similar methodology and slightly different definition so you can't perfectly compare apples to apples, they said black friday sales were nine point eight billion in the us which is up seven point five percent from the year before so that would basically be right at that par i was just talking about, they said cyber monday was up to twelve point four percent and that was hot off the press so i wasn't able to do the math on what growth rate that was. They said for the whole month of November year to date, that they see November up 4.6% from last year. So kind of below that par. These are all numbers Adobe is giving for e-commerce. [3:26] And of particular note, and I know we'll talk about this more, they've seen a significant uptick in use of Buy Now, Pay Later services, and they've seen deeper discounting than we saw last year. Now, Shopify is really out there with a big news cycle. And I don't want to say they won up Salesforce, but they bought the sphere in Las Vegas and broadcast their data on the outside of the sphere, which visually is, is super cool. But their data isn't so useful because they don't report same store sales. They had a, you know, some unknown basket of merchants that sold a bunch of stuff last year, and they had some unknown basket of merchants that sold more stuff this year, and we don't know if the same merchants were here this year and last year or if they added a bunch of merchants or, or if this is true growth. So, so while the Shopify numbers are interesting, if you're investing in Shopify, they don't tell us a lot about what's happening in the e-commerce world. I did see a super interesting quote from Harley Finkelstein, who's the president of Shopify, and it's possibly, possibly that he just misworded this, but he was excited after Black Friday and he said 17.5, thousand. So $17,500. [4:41] Vendors made their first sale this Black Friday weekend. So I took that to mean, not that they launched on Friday just in time for Black Friday, but that this was their first Black Friday where they sold anything. So that's 17.5 thousand new merchants. [4:58] And then he said, in total, 55 thousand merchants set their all-time daily record on Black Friday. Black Friday: First Sales for Vendors [5:05] And while those two numbers sound impressive, if you kind of think about it for a second, you go, wait, the vast majority of merchants on Shopify that are B2C are going to sell their record. Cyber Monday hasn't happened yet, so take that out of the equation, are going to set their all-time record on Black Friday. So not surprised, you would expect the vast majority of all merchants to set their Black Friday record. And 17.5 thousand of them are new. So what that says is there's only 37 thousand merchants that are a year old on Shopify that sold more this Friday than last year on Black Friday. And that's, I guess, less than I would expect based on the usual reports we get from Shopify. So that, I'll just record that as a moment and our stock analysts that cover Shopify listening on the call can weigh in on that one. [5:58] BigCommerce, a slightly weirder data set. They saw an outlier, they saw 14% growth, but again, random, they're not trying to report at the industry, they're just reporting their clients. And then a particularly interesting one to me is MasterCard. I have a love-hate relationship with MasterCard. Unlike all the rest of you, MasterCard gets a set of data for stores and retailers, so they try to forecast what happened in retail, which is super valuable. Historically, I've seen some weird deviations from MasterCard that make me cautious about their numbers. But this year, they reported Black Friday, they did not report Cyber Monday. Their Black Friday number was up 8.5% year over year for eCommerce. [6:39] Which is at the high side of the mean for all these other datasets. And they reported that on Friday, total retail sales were up 2.5%. But if you back eCommerce out of that number, brick and mortar was only up 1.1%. So basically, I would call all those numbers par with our Q3 numbers. So, that kind of sets the table. Scot, take us through what we learned from Salesforce. Scot: [7:11] Yeah. So, a million questions, Rob. Let's start with, it seems like one of the biggest interesting battle royales is, A, why was Rob's face not on the sphere? And then B, it seems like one of the data sets is saying Cyber Monday is much bigger than Black Friday. And then in your pre-show, you had said you guys are seeing Black Friday exceed Cyber Monday. So let's start there. Which was bigger? Rob: [7:37] Yeah. Well, first of all, I lost the coin flip and Astro or Cody, which are critters in Salesforce world, won. So they got their faces along with Einstein on the sphere a couple of weeks ago during F1. So I'm still going for it next year, but we'll see what happens. But I digress. Let's get into the numbers. So yeah, we are seeing, you called it a battle royal. I appreciate any reference to 1980s wrestling, by the way. So thank you very much, but let's not go down that path. That could be a whole other podcast. But what we are seeing is, as you mentioned, a battle between Cyber Monday and Black Friday for supremacy. [8:19] And they are going back and forth. What we found in our data in 2019, Black Friday eclipsed Cyber Monday and has remained there, especially outside of the United States. And so we're seeing big growth and, you know, partly what's contributing to that is not only Alibaba, which has been in place for some time, but Timu and Xi'an, which I know you gentlemen like to talk about. So regardless what I think, two things based on all the data that you provide, and I appreciate the broad perspective that you share here, is people are actually buying. They might not be buying as much as they were in the past and throughout the pandemic, but But there is demand. And you know, I think that's important because when we look at our numbers and just to put it out there for Cyber Monday, and we can bounce around here wherever you'd like to go, is we chalked our number at 12.6. [9:13] Billion in the United States, and that's a growth of 3%. And I'll call it a healthy growth of 3%. And the reason being is, for the first time in five quarters, we saw growth being generated by increased consumer demand and not just merely higher prices, which is our indicator for inflation. And just to put it in perspective, let me talk about Black Friday here, because you mentioned the battle that's happening here. We saw 16.4 billion in online sales for Black Friday in the US, and that was up 9%. And so, as I mentioned, what this shows us is people are buying. What it's also showing is that there's a high concentration of online sales for those two days. And sure, you two gentlemen are laughing because that's been that way since Cyber Monday was coined in 2005, but there has been a smoothing out of demand, particularly around Cyber Week or cyber five for the last several years, but there's been a stark shift back to those two prominent days. Jason: [10:27] So interesting on the top line numbers, one of the, you mentioned that you're, you're seeing items increase, not just prices, right? Which kind of opens the whole specter of, of it's, we're not just seeing growth for from inflation, right? Are there any categories that you're like going into the holiday? It was like, hey, the growth was in essentials and food and things like that. And discretionary items like apparel and electronics and toys were not doing well. Did you guys see, like, are people opening their wallets on discretionary items or are sales continuing to be these kind of essentials and affordable luxuries? Rob: [11:06] Yeah, it's a mixed bag. And I do want to underscore your point, Jason, around. Growth being generated by more volume and not just higher prices. So that's exactly what we saw. 3% growth when you're seeing 9% increase in inflation is a tough equation to, be profitable and to work out in the consumer's favor. But in this case, we are seeing more demand. And the demand, as I mentioned, is a mixed bag. On one hand, we are seeing really nice growth in areas like makeup and health and beauty, skin care. We're also seeing nice growth in active apparel and active footwear as well. I categorize that actually as comfort. In uncertain times when consumers certainly are looking to really take control of their household balance sheets, oftentimes you migrate to comfort. You know, you can talk about comfort food, but this is just comfort gifting and comfort what you put on your body, both clothes and literally on your skin. And so we are seeing nice growth there where actually, if you think about it over the last 12 months, those categories have been hit a bit in terms of the growth curve. [12:20] And what you're seeing on the other side actually is luxury is softening a little bit, which which I think is important to note because for the last, I mean, gosh, through the pandemic and after, luxury was one of the most, no, not one of the most, was the most resilient categories. And we're starting to see a bit of breaking down, especially around the aspirational luxury side. So we're going to keep an eye on that. I will mention one other thing, actually, as it relates to categories that are doing well in the holiday and that is food and beverage and gifting, you know, in terms of. What people look to for comfort and experiences, they are gifting chocolate, they're gifting wine, they're gifting various gift baskets. We saw really strong growth, even starting, you know, the Tuesday before Thanksgiving and working its way through the entire holiday. Jason: [13:22] Interesting. One category or two categories that come up a lot, like coming into holiday, electronics had been in a pretty big swamp, like for the whole pandemic. And I'm curious, I've seen conflicting data about whether electronics are back or whether they're still soft. Traditionally, electronics would be one of the fastest movers for holiday. Rob: [13:43] Of course, of course. Yeah, I mean, consumer electronics, toys, right? Those two are still pretty soft. I think you really though need to put it in perspective in terms of the astronomical growth we saw on those categories over the last four years. I haven't done the math. You're really good at this, Jason. So I'm gonna put you to task maybe on your next LinkedIn post, but I am willing to wager, and I'm not a betting person, so I'm not really willing Softness in Consumer Electronics and Toys Market [14:07] to wager, but I'd love to see the CAGR of those categories over the last four years. I'm guessing they're in really strong, like high team growth, which any retailer would be happy with that on a given holiday time period. So there is a bit of softening, but I think it's really important to understand it in context with the growth that they've seen over the last several years. Scot: [14:32] Cool. Um, so, you know, with these good showings and Cyber Monday and Black Friday, what's that mean for the rest of the season? Are you guys like doubling your forecast, tripling or, and what's that mean for the shape? We talk a lot about the shape of the holiday. Any, any, any changes to your thoughts on those? Rob: [14:49] Yeah. The shape or the anatomy. I've been asked this by a lot of retail executives because they're being asked by their board, like, are you sandbagging us? Black Friday and Cyber Monday Impact on Holiday Season Shape [14:59] We need to really relook at this forecast. We crawled through the data over the last couple of days just to look through our model and see if we could see the data in different ways through different lenses. The reality is what we're seeing is that Black Friday and Cyber Monday were taking market share from the bookends of the holiday, from earlier on and later on, right before the shipping cutoff date. And so for the last five years or so, we have been seeing a smoothing out of demand for the seven days that we define as Cyber Week, Tuesday before Thanksgiving through Cyber Monday. And Thanksgiving became a really strong and important day, especially on the mobile device, especially as consumers. [15:47] Either being distracted or inspired, whichever you want to think about it, on the couch after Thanksgiving meal, looking at social. [15:54] But we've seen a snapback of the higher concentration of Black Friday and Cyber Monday. So it's not like there's incremental sales, and that's what I think you were getting at, right? I don't think there's incremental sales that we can now account for. We're still staying to our forecast of 1% growth in the US for November and December. That's how we define holiday and in the US and we're looking at 4% growth globally, really led by Europe. And I want to just put a caveat on this. Not only again, are we seeing that growth come from increased demand, but retailers have gotten smarter. Retailers' Inventory Management and Positive Growth Forecast [16:33] I don't know if it's smarter, but they were very deliberate going into this holiday starting six months ago about managing inventory levels and margins. So there's been a lot of talk about how are we going to handle shipping? How are we going to handle our return policies? And also, how are we going to think about our open to buys? And so I think most retail executives, especially on the merchandising side, are feeling pretty good because they're working their way through the inventory, which by the way, as you know, has been a big glut over the last couple of years, especially in 2021, when so many products were stuck in the port of LA. I mean, that just created this bullwhip effect that we're still just getting our arms around now and getting over the hump. And so that's my long way of saying is we're not reforecasting. We still feel positive with that 1% and 4% growth in U.S. and global, respectively, because. [17:24] Retailers are taking a very close look at overall profitability and this concept of customer profitability as well. Scot: [17:32] Yeah. You'd said, so it seems like the curve was kind of flattening out and now it's like steepening again it's like kind of coming in at the edges and in kind of like shaping up in the middle part of the bell curve which is like the that, Retailers analyzing profitability and customer profitability. [17:48] cyber week. Is that that's right. Okay. Rob: [17:51] That's really good. Yeah. It's kind of snapped back. Right. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Scot: [17:56] It's going to make that sound. Rob: [17:58] Where's the sound effects in turn? Are they there? Are they on call? Can we get that bullying? Jason: [18:02] I'll be adding that in post. Scot: [18:06] You had said something that kind of piqued my interest. You said people are kind of, you know, I may be rephrasing this wrong, but you said kind of demand is back. Like I knew it almost felt like you were saying before there was, you know, people were shopping, but it didn't seem like, you know, a new increase in demand. And now it is because you're seeing robustness in pricing and stuff. Is that say a little bit more about that? I'll make sure I understand what you were saying. Increase in Demand and Robust Pricing Rob: [18:32] Yeah, you got it. So yes. And I, again, and don't think retail executives are doing backflips and thinking that we're getting back to roaring double-digit, growth coming out of the holiday. But what this is an indication, and by the way, we're seeing this as a leading indicator in Europe, let's exclude the UK, which is probably in the same rebound curve as the United States and Canada, but you take continental Europe and who are about two, maybe three quarters ahead of us in terms of the rebound, we're seeing inflation settle, the average selling prices settle down and people are buying more. So we're seeing average orders volume higher. We're seeing slight uptick in units per transaction, only slight. But the order piece is super interesting. We're seeing traffic. We're seeing continued really strong traffic. People are just really being diligent and patient and shopping a lot and looking for the best deals. And we'll have to talk about that in terms of what discounting patterns we saw as well. So that's my long way of saying Scot is people are buying more, they're doing it. By still making trade-offs. So there is a sense of let's load up on some essentials while we're getting good deals. [19:57] Let's look for travel, entertainment, like experiences. And you have to also think of the adjacent categories like luggage, as an example, if you're going on a trip, do you need something new to put your clothes in? And though they are, again, increasing, as I mentioned. So as I think about the sentiment, even with a 1% in the US growth, 4% global is what we're forecasting for the full holiday, retailers are feeling good about that. They want to exit this holiday on a really good foundation of profitability, a really good foundation on inventory levels. And most every retailer I'm talking to has a growth mindset. They're thinking about customer acquisition, finding new ways to do that because customer acquisition costs are still off the charts, but also loyalty, finding new ways to create stickiness, looking for adjacent categories, adjacent services, looking for partnerships to supplement what they're doing organically. And I mean, this would take us down a whole other path, but they're leaning into data. They're leaning into AI to better understand who those consumers are and what they're likely to buy and making sure they're able to create profitable customers. How was that soapbox? I just rattled off too much, too fast. Jason: [21:13] So hopefully you were able to digest it. But you kind of, you glossed over what they're really looking at is just selling ads to brands. Rob: [21:18] That's fair. Thank you. I could have just said that. You're right. That's a very good point. And yeah, we could, I love your take actually, seriously, given that on Amazon's move for the football game on Friday. Jason: [21:31] Yeah. So that's a great point. And maybe just to catch up listeners that might not have followed it. Something very different and unique for this year is that the NFL, you know, normally they have a Thursday game and they have Sunday games and a Monday night game. On Thanksgiving, they have Thursday day games during Thanksgiving. This year, they added a Friday game for the first time. And the sponsor of that Friday game was Amazon. It was broadcast on Amazon Prime, and Amazon actually had shoppable ads via QR codes in the broadcast, all sort of innovative, cool, new stuff. [22:11] The early read is that the viewership was pretty good for the Friday game. There's no history, so we have nothing to compare it to. I would argue fewer people are going and standing in line at brick and mortar stores for door busters. You know, the little bit of data we do have on brick and mortar shows that, like, there wasn't a huge, huge spike in in-store shopping. I feel like Friday has become more of an online shopping day, Amazon's Innovative Advertising and Potential Profitability for Holiday [22:36] which means people are home more, which means there's an opportunity to watch a football game. I kind of don't imagine that the interactive ad formats, like, you know, we're high volume and really move the needle, but they're innovative. And I do think that that Friday game is likely to be a new tradition as the holiday shopping season goes from an omni-channel thing to an online thing. At least that's my POV. Rob: [23:03] Yeah, I am super interested in your point of view given how close you are to this. So I guess I'm gonna put you on the spot. Wow, look at me, I'm totally turning the table here, but this has been on my mind. And actually, interestingly enough, over the weekend at a party, somebody who's not in like retail, you know, he shops. That's the extent of it. He pointed out what Amazon did and thought it was really clever. So what did I hear? Like, did they spend a hundred million dollars for that? Regardless, do you think they made the money back going to your point, Jason, on selling ad space in there and kind of even if it's a break even and or they're gaining more prime members, it was a good day for Amazon? Jason: [23:42] Yeah, I am pretty confident it was a good day for Amazon. Like, one thing to remember is Amazon has a better model for monetizing eyeballs than anyone else, right? So, like, if you're Coca-Cola and you sponsor a football game, you're trying to get eyeballs and the only way you have to monetize those eyeballs is to get them to drink more Coke. Rob: [24:03] Right. Jason: [24:04] If you're Amazon, here's what you do. You get a bunch of eyeballs. You try to sell them something that you make money on. And after you do that, you sell ads to other people for more than you paid. And they try to sell something to that person, right? And so, you know, the combination of the ad revenue that Amazon generates and the top of funnel, and bottom of funnel benefit that Amazon gets, again, they're building their brand. Your friend that was just talking to you, he wasn't talking about a particular product he was shopping for. The brand he remembers is Amazon, right? And so you got that Amazon top of the funnel benefit, which is valuable and important. Amazon probably sold some stuff to people. So you got that Amazon bottom of funnel benefit. And then we know Amazon sold a bunch of ads, which is, you know, a huge, huge driver of incremental profit. So yeah, I definitely think we can call Amazon a winner there. I think when it all settles, we're also going to see that it was just a pretty good sales day for Amazon as well. Rob: [25:09] Yeah, I bet you're right. Yeah. The last point and then we can move on and by the way, welcome to episode one of the Rob Garf podcast, is the fact that I mean, knowing Amazon, those ads that you're getting are personalized in terms of them understanding who you are and even if it's a different size or a different brand or a different you know, whatever, even what they know about what's in your shopping cart, what you bought in the past. So anyways, it sounds like, as I would have suspected, you're pretty bullish about it and I am too. Jason: [25:37] So yeah, I do want to cover something just kind of fundamental. So, so we rebounded a little bit and we got bigger sales on, on Friday and Monday. Potentially we might've just pulled some sales in that were going to happen later in the month per your, your comments about not wanting to re-forecast. Did we partly pull those in by giving deeper discounts than we usually give? Like what, what did you see from a discounting standpoint and what does that say about potential profitability for Holiday? Rob: [26:03] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So we actually looked at this going into the Holiday and we went back to 2019 and I have the team look at discount rates starting in November 1st for 2019, 2021, and 2023, what we had anticipated for this year. And what we saw and actually came true is we saw discount rates over Cyber Week hover just north of where they were in 2019. Discount rates over Cyber Week in comparison to previous years [26:31] Don't forget, 2021, there were the lowest discount rates that we've seen because the product just wasn't there. So retailers, it was the first time they won the game of Discount Chicken. The short answer is yes. Retailers did discount the heaviest they have all year, right around 30% on average. And I think that's important. It's on average. I mean, we've all seen discounts of 40%, 50%, really creative discounting strategies. And so that definitely drove demand. I mean, going back to the consumer, while they're buying more, they're making trade-offs and they were really diligent. [27:09] They were really patient and they waited and they waited and they ultimately saw the attractive deals starting in earnest on Black Friday. They weren't even that great on the Monday, Tuesday, I'm sorry, the Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thanksgiving, Thursday until Black Friday, and then they started to buy. So they held out and they ultimately purchased those attractive deals. In terms of margin, I think we're doing okay. And the secret here is when we looked at the data, given all the inflation that happened, And actually, consumers are still, even with these deep discounts, paying more than they were in 2019. The optics are there. They're feeling like they're getting a good deal, but the reality is they're still spending more. So I think they'll be okay. And there wasn't this protracted discounting that did happen. And because they manage their inventory well, the retailers, and their discounting strategy as well, I don't think they're going to be forced with the hail Mary discounts that you often see right before the shipping cutoff date. So I think that retailers actually managed it pretty well. I give them credit too, by the way, what we saw in our data as well is retailers were a lot more transparent around their discounting strategy. [28:23] Many were offering price match guarantees. If they saw, you know, the consumer saw the price for less, and they were also much more transparent around their return policies as well. So people felt a little more comfortable buying earlier, even if the prices weren't exactly where they wanted it. So the long of it is, or the short of it, whichever way I look at it, is there were healthy discounts. Consumers took advantage of them. I'm still feeling more positive, especially than I have from last year, about margins. Scot: [28:57] Cool. You said something I want to dig into, and then I want to pivot to be in PL. You said luxury was a little soft. What do we make of that? Retailers' management of inventory and transparency in discounting strategy Rob: [29:06] Yeah, and like I said, it's had a run, like I haven't seen before in any one category. I mean, don't get me wrong. Consumer electronics really strong and some other categories in the pandemic home looked really strong as well. But it continued after the pandemic, both in store and online. What we saw compared again, just to put in perspective, three percent increase on Cyber Monday in the U.S., nine percent increase in Black Friday in the U.S. [29:34] There was a tick low beyond flat for luxury. What it also showed is they started to. [29:41] Discount more than they typically do. You think of luxury, they're going to hold their really price and be sensitive around preserving their brand and their margins. And we were seeing that tick up as well. I think the ultra luxury is still alive and kicking, no problem. It's more of that aspirational luxury. One area that I think is really important to point out is the resale market. More and more luxury brands are playing in the luxury market game. I'm sorry, the resale market game, because they realize people are doing it anyways, and they might as well offer that in many cases on their own website. So like Coach as an example, Canada Goose as an example, have the capability to exchange product, which then allows existing customers to likely buy something at a higher price point. And then if the product is in good enough shape, they're able to resell it and allow for aspirational shoppers to actually access that brand and buy it where they might not have been able to in the past. So yeah, I'm not overly concerned about luxury. I mean, the brands are so strong and there's so much loyalty there, but it just does show that in the aspirational space, people are trading down to a degree. [30:55] You know, they're trading down for value in the resale market. In many cases, they're trading down for vintage. It's amazing to see how many, you know, sneaker brands and specific models are hot that we all remember from our high school days. And you know, even the younger generations like to save the world a little bit as well. Scot: [31:14] Yeah. So I guess what I'm getting at is, do we think the consumer's rolling over and that's kind of the BNPL question too, because one way to read BNPL increasing is people are under financial stress. So they're stretching out payments. Another way is, you know, seeing all this data and it's always sponsored by one of the BNPL providers. So I'm never sure how to take it, but it shows that, you know, millennials and Gen Zers like, they don't like open credit. And it's weird because my kids have this perspective too. I thought it was like, I thought it was totally made up and then they're like, oh no, I, you know, I hate having like these credit cards with big limits. And I'm like, well, if you don't use it, it doesn't matter. It just makes them Consumer behavior and the rise of Buy Now, Pay Later (BNPL) [31:52] nervous for some reason. And do you think it's a generational thing or is it a little sign of softness on the consumer? And maybe the luxury is another indication that it feels like the consumer is rolling over a little bit or you don't see that. Rob: [32:06] Yeah, I mean, I think it is a bit generational to your point. I don't have those data's points to substantiate what you're describing. But a lot of what I learned is from my 17-year-old and 14-year-old because they're right in the smack dab of purchasing and trends and so forth. Don't worry, we have a lot more data at Salesforce to back this up, billions and billions of shoppers. But in any case, the anecdotes definitely help provide a full commentary. But we saw an outpay later over Cyber Week increase 7%. So that's healthy. It's a little slower than we've seen in past. What we're also seeing, and it started last year, is it's on lower and lower price point merchandise. So that also speaks to the adoption as well. It's not just on the big ticket items. I think if I zoom out for a moment as well, mobile wallets were really strong. Mobile wallets were really strong. We saw about a 50% increase year over year in that. Now, of course, it's a smaller base than traditional credit cards and debit cards. But still, it's showing the adoption because it's really breaking down the friction in the checkout process. But we keep a close eye on buy now, pay later, because you're right. It could be an indication, especially as consumers look to buy lower price merchandise, that it might be a softening in the market. But we're not quite there in proclaiming that. Scot: [33:25] You said a mobile wallet. That is catnip for retail geek, so I'll get out of his way. I bet he has a million questions. Jason: [33:32] Yeah, no, Scot knows I love a good mobile wallet and I'm sure everyone's already heard this, Mobile wallets and the impact on checkout process and shopping experiences [33:37] but I have a hypothesis that some of the popular shopping behaviors we see in Asia aren't as popular here because we don't have as good a penetration of mobile wallets and that if you have mobile wallets, it makes certain experiences like shopping on social media and things like that easier because it only requires one hand instead of three hands. So I'd be curious, do you guys think you're seeing more mobile wallet users, or do you think you're seeing more transaction from the existing users, or do you have the ability to? To see between those two? I suspect I just asked you a question you're going to now have to go do research on. Rob: [34:17] Nick Neumann We may have that based on some of the primary research we do. We don't have access to personally identifiable information, so we can't see by user. But my thesis there is it's both. There are more people adopting mobile wallets because they see the convenience and the friction that's removed. And then once that happens, they're buying more. I think you go back to the Amazon example, part of why that's probably a home run for them is because it's a lot easier for somebody to buy in that form factor than let's say Roku or other Verizon user interfaces that you don't have a wallet associated with it. I didn't go through the shopping process on the Friday NFL game, but I can only imagine it was much easier than having to do it through other types of media. So I think that, yeah, I agree by the way, with your hypothesis that, you know, embedded commerce or shopping at the edge has been a bit stunted because, the wallet piece is not there or as accessible as it is in other countries. Buy Now, Pay Later Growing and Replacing Layaway Jason: [35:30] Yeah. Two things I'll just throw out there on buy now, pay later. I mean, I do, I think it, it legitimately resonates with the new crop of consumers. And so I think it's growing for all the reasons that the Buy Now Pay Later people claim it's growing. But I would, there's two accelerators that are just kind of convenient in there. Holiday used to be a big time for this payment method that the youngsters on the call wouldn't have heard of called the layaway. And almost no retailer that I'm aware of has brought back layaway, like they all retired it in the last several years, largely because Buy Now Pay Later has replaced it. And so, you know, layaway is most popular around holiday. So, you know, to the extent that buy now pay later is the digital version of layaway. It kind of makes sense that you would see a spike over a holiday. Also, digital is growing much faster than brick and mortar. Buy Now, Pay Later is disproportionately online. So that, you know, is another reason you would expect Buy Now, Pay Later to spike. One thing that's a little alarming slash interesting to me is that Buy Now, Pay Later gets used for a wider range of purchases and merchandise than LayAway did. Like, LayAway tended to be big ticket items, your kid's aspirational toys, but Buy Now Pay Later gets used for food and consumables and things that economically you would argue probably don't want to be financing something that you need to rebuy every month. Rob: [36:52] Yes. Jason: [36:53] So I'll just throw that out there on Buy Now Pay Later. We are coming up on our allotted time. I do have two other pieces of news that just kind of interrupted the Turkey Five news cycle. And one of them I'm super sad about, and it's actual breaking news that happened while we were recording this show, Charlie Munger just passed away at 99. Rob: [37:13] Oh, wow. Scot: [37:14] That's terrible. Jason: [37:15] Warren Buffett's partner, and I just, I feel like, very admirable person. I've learned a lot. He and Warren Buffett, like, are super generous with sharing Charlie Munger's Passing and Xi'an's IPO Announcement [37:23] all this thought leadership, and I just want to say best wishes to all his family and loved ones. Seems like you had an amazing life. Rob: [37:31] Yeah, I echo your sentiment. Jason: [37:33] Yep. And then in the middle of Cyber 5, you guys teased this a couple of times talking about Xi'an. and Xi'an disclosed that they filed an IPO. So that came out yesterday. It's a confidential IPO, so we won't actually see the prospectus until probably 2024 sometime. Okay. And the theory is that it's going to be, because of their not super transparent ownership structure and their Chinese ownership, it's gonna have extra regulatory scrutiny. And so the reason you'd file a confidential IPO is so you could start talking to regulators and negotiating what you're gonna do and what you're gonna disclose. And so they're probably working through all that stuff to then do the public IPO later. But it's, I'm excited for when that gets disclosed because there's a lot of speculation about how big Shein is and how profitable or unprofitable their model has been. And we're gonna be able to do away with all that speculation and get some real certified data. Rob: [38:38] I can't wait to listen to that show when you dissect that. It will be super interesting to see where they're allocating the investment and the capital. Beyond, obviously, hiring people, but what parts of the business. Jason: [38:51] I totally agree and that's going to be a great place to leave it because we have used up our allotted time. Rob, so grateful and congratulations on being our first six-time guest. And as per usual, if you enjoyed this episode or it was useful to us in any way, the two ways you can reward us are to do a giant enterprise contract for all your marketing services with Salesforce.com or, you can leave a five-star review on iTunes for Scot and I. So, you know, those are the two paths, choose whichever one makes most financial sense to you, but appreciate it if you do one or the other. Rob: [39:29] Yeah. And if I could say too, I know we're running up against time, but I want to give a big, sincere thank you. Obviously we just came out of Thanksgiving, so I want to show my gratitude. You know, it's amazing. Anytime I'm on the show, the people that reach out to me, not only talking about the show, but how much they've learned from you. And so for you to trust me and providing my perspective and Salesforce perspective means a lot and just thanks for being such good friends. Scot: [39:56] Robert Leonard Jason said, no, but I overrode him just so you know the history. I thought, you know, Jason's like, I'm the retail geek. We don't need any Garfies in here. Rob, remind us where could people go? You guys will be updating your data. I assume, you know, this is the last time you'll be on for this year, but I'm sure you'll be publishing more data as we get deeper in the holiday. Where do people go to see that? Rob: [40:19] Jason Cosper Yeah, we have our Shopping Insights HQ on salesforce.com. We will be updating the information. We'll do a mid-season report right around the shipping cutoff window, and then we'll do an all-wrapped-up just around the beginning of NRF. So keep an eye out. Scot: [40:34] Awesome. Well, thanks, everyone, and until next time... Jason: [40:38] Happy commercing!

The Jason & Scot Show. Podcast about e-commerce and digital shopper marketing. Editor note: We're trying some fun new AI features for this episode. The following show notes were written by ChatGPT. We're also let AI remove all the "stop words" in our audio, and we've switched from Google to OpenAI for our audio transcription. Let us know your feedback. In this episode of the Jason and Scot show, our special guest is Sean D. Nelson, the CEO and founder of Lovesac. He shares his inspiring journey of starting the company as a beanbag business in his basement and growing it into a successful public company. Sean highlights the key moments of his entrepreneurial journey, including winning a million dollars on Richard Branson's reality TV show and navigating the ups and downs of the business. Sean has upcoming book and podcast, both entitled "Let Me Save You 25 Years: Mistakes, Miracles, and Lessons from the Lovesac Story." Sean emphasizes the importance of being a direct-to-consumer brand and how Lovesac has found sustained success by focusing on customer acquisition costs and offering a high-quality product. He discusses the concept of direct-to-consumer and shares his thoughts on its significance. Sean believes that having a differentiated product that provides value to customers is crucial, rather than simply relying on an online sales strategy. The conversation also touches on the topic of innovation and how Lovesac has been able to push the boundaries of what a furniture company can offer. Sean discusses their Stealth Tech innovation, which incorporates surround sound into their couches, as well as their commitment to creating products that are built to last and designed to evolve. Sean acknowledges the challenges of operating in physical retail and highlights the importance of their showrooms in reducing customer acquisition costs and providing a hands-on experience for customers. He also mentions their partnerships with Best Buy and Costco to expand their reach. The discussion expands to the future of retail and e-commerce, with Sean mentioning the transformative role of AI but cautioning that it takes time for movements to fully evolve. He emphasizes the importance of being patient and keeping an eye on developments in the industry. The conversation concludes with Sean expressing his long-term commitment to Lovesac and his desire to build something meaningful rather than focusing solely on personal gain. Listeners are invited to check out Sean's podcast and website, as well as his upcoming book, which will be released in January. Overall, this episode provides insights into the journey and philosophy behind Lovesac's success and offers valuable perspectives on entrepreneurship, innovation, and the future of retail. Chapters 0:00:46 Introduction and Welcome to the Show 0:08:36 The Journey of Love Sack: From Highs to Lows 0:12:05 Love Sack's Traditional IPO and Company Performance 0:15:49 The Importance of Having a Differentiated Product 0:19:49 The Value and Overhype of Market Movements 0:23:18 Sactionals: Built to Last, Designed to Evolve 0:25:56 Driving a Movement for Sustainable Consumerism 0:31:36 Innovation and the Evolution of Lovesac's Product Line 0:37:07 The Strength of Lovesac's Physical Showrooms in the DTC Landscape 0:40:03 Testing and Learning: Mobile Concierge and Shop and Shop 0:41:52 AI's transformative role in the future of technology 0:50:08 Long-Term Vision vs Quick Profit Episode 313 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded on Thursday, November 9th, 2023. Transcript Jason: [0:23] Welcome to the Jason and Scot show. This episode is being recorded on Thursday, November 9th, 2023. I'm your host, Jason "RetailGeek" Goldberg, and as usual, I'm here with your co-host, Scot Wingo. Scot: [0:37] Hey, Jason, and welcome back. Jason and Scot show listeners. Jason, we're very fortunate to have a entrepreneur on the show. I'm the entrepreneur side of our partnership. So I always really enjoy these. Introduction and Welcome to the Show [0:49] We have on the show, Sean D. Nelson. He is the CEO and founder of Lovesack. And a little birdie told me that he recently started a podcast himself. He started Love Sack as a beanbag company in his basement when he was around 18. And now it's a public company and doing relatively large revenues over 600 kind of run rate. If I look at the last quarter, I took a little glance at that. Sean, welcome to the show. Shawn : [1:13] Thank you. Thanks for having me. Great to be with you. Jason: [1:16] We are thrilled to have you, Sean. Listeners always like to kind of get the background. I'm imagining you don't have a deep background before you started Love Sack because you started it so young. But can you, like where were you in life when that brought you to start build your own product? Shawn : [1:34] Yeah, strangely, 25 years in and still running the same company I founded as my side hustle in college, which is exactly what Love Sack was. So 95, all the way back then, I made a giant not bean bag because I thought it would be funny. I literally, 10 days out of high school, got off the couch at my parents' house, having this dumb idea, like, how about a beanbag, like, me to the TV, like, the whole floor, like, huge. Drove down to the fabric store, bought some fabric, brought it home, cut it out, and then began sewing it up, broke my mom's sewing machine, neighbor finished it, took three or four weeks to try and stuff it, originally with beads, but couldn't possibly find enough, so looked around the house, I just found out my parents' camping mattresses chopped up yellow foam, you know, like those yellow slabs of foam you take camping, on a paper cutter in the basement. And eventually, I mean, foam, packing peanuts, old blankets, had this thing stuffed and started using it out and about through university, taking it camping, back of the truck, driving movies. Ended up putting it away for a couple years. And by the way, everywhere I took it, everybody wants one. Like everyone's always like, Oh my gosh, what is that thing? Where'd you get it? I was like, I'll never make another one. It was such a pain in the butt and put it away for a couple of years to go be a missionary for my church. [2:58] And came back to finish up university in 1998. And that's when I founded the company. Cause people kept bugging me to make them one. And it became my side hustle in college. And we tried to sell these things eventually beyond our friends and family and beer fest, May fest, October fest, car shows, boat shows, 10 by 10 booths, how we got started. Tried to sell them to furniture stores and they laughed at us and told us it was a dumb idea. [3:34] Eventually, at a trade show got discovered by the limited to this is like, you would not today as justice like in the malls, like little girls pink and purple fuzzy stuff for their bedrooms and, and clothing. Anyway, they ordered 12,000 little love sacks, not knowing it was me and a buddy and like a woodchipper shredding foam in the back of this furniture place. And, and that forced us to source over in Asia, which is, you know, where I had served my mission. So I speak Mandarin Chinese. There's a whole story there I won't get into it it was just kind of one thing led to another led to another week we built a factory to support that 12,000 sack order we then went out to the furniture stores who again laughed at us didn't want our $500,000. [4:19] Beanbags having completed that order wanting to keep the factory going so we finally opened our own store in a mall that didn't even want us there but finally capitulated let us in because they We had a space to fill for the holiday season, in Salt Lake City, Utah, and it just exploded. We did a good job, carpet paint, neon sign, made it look like a proper mall chain store selling giant beanbags, and it just took off. Like, it worked. People came in, flopped down, music bumpin', big screen TV, playin' movies, had a great time. There was a couch in the corner to look pretty, be part of the decor. People kept asking about the couch, And that led us to eventually, many stores later, many states later, invent Saxionals, which is our modular sofa solution, which now drives almost 90% of our sales today. So we're more a couch company by far today than we are a beanbag company. And there was a whole, listen, I'm skipping over decades of time really, but there was a whole transition where we... We went through after we invented the sectionals and solved all these problems people have with couches not only can you ship it to your house via FedEx which was hyper relevant you know for. [5:32] E-commerce and digital marketing obviously but it's watchable and changeable, and movable and it can be with you the rest of your life that that led us to a whole design philosophy that now. [5:42] Drives are innovation we think is a really cool secret sauce called design for life but. 10, 20, 50, 100, 250 locations now. We came public in 2018 on about 100 million in sales. Right around the time there was just tons of fervor in this direct consumer movement. We had farted around, we'll call it as a furniture store, selling rugs and lamps and bowls and baskets and all the obvious things along the way. And it was really when we purged all that stuff around 2015, seeing the Caspers of the world emerge and Warby Parker's and even Tesla with their showrooms. Could we adopt a more e-commerce-led model with showrooms for people to kick the tires, so to speak? And that transition is really what unlocked the lovesack that you see today and where most of our growth has come since about 2015, 16, when we made that pivot, took the company public, wrapped around that direct consumer story. So we're not a digitally native brand originally, we were actually a retailer that pivoted and became digitally led. And now we don't even operate stores in the traditional sense. We don't, we don't stock things there. You know, you don't walk out of there with your product. They're all really online sales and those showrooms are extremely powerful mechanisms for helping people make up their mind around a five or 10, $15,000. [7:06] Purchase where they want to see the thing and sit on it and, and, and see if it's everything it's cracked, it's cracked up to be online. And so we, we, we believe that we really, uh, through that arc. And then by the way, since coming public, I don't know, six, seven X, the company this year, you know, we'll, we'll be on a run rate to the analysts were a public company. So the analysts show us around, you know, it's called 700 plus in revenue and profitable, very profitable and cash generative. So we think, you know, the direct consumer game, in a lot of respects, Love Sack is one of the unlikely winners of that entire movement. Because I think at that scale, there are very, very few, what I call successful direct to consumer brands. And so we're really proud of that. And it's been a long saga, and we continue to grow and change and adapt and evolve. Jason: [8:01] It's an amazing story. And we definitely want to unpack it. But I want to go all the way back to the beginning for one second. Did that neighbor who helped finish sewing the first prototype get any equity? Shawn : [8:13] No, it was my ex-girlfriend's, mom, so about the time she exited, you know. No, it was just a friendly favor, but the truth is a lot of people helped out along the way, and a lot of people had equity or have equity in Love Sack from along the way, but look, we've been through every high, every low. Somewhere in the middle there, I skipped over it just because of brevity. Not only did I win a million dollars on TV with Richard Branson, The Journey of Love Sack: From Highs to Lows [8:38] his reality TV show on Fox Network back in 2005, if you can believe that, the rebel billionaire. But I also guided the company through a complete chapter 11 reorganization back in 2006, spearheaded by Venture Capital, which was painful and ugly and embarrassing and humiliating. So we've been through every kind of thing over these better than two decades. Scot: [9:01] Yeah, my deep dive question is, when you rented or bought the wood chipper, did you tell them you'd be throwing foam in there, or did they think you were clearing up a tree? Shawn : [9:09] Oh, that's so the original story. Yeah, the original woodchipper actually, you know, if you've ever used one in your backyard or, you know, you shove sticks into these things, that's basically what the original shredder was. And it was in the back room of this furniture factory already. They had used it back in the seventies to shred foam, but it had an electric motor, right? Instead of like, okay. Scot: [9:30] So it's okay to be inside here. Shawn : [9:32] Well, yeah, but I had to rehab it because it hadn't been used in like a decade or two because shredded foam had fallen out of favor in furniture. And then later to do that bigger order, we couldn't afford like a proper German, shredder, so we ended up driving out to farm country to find more of those same kind of shredders and actually found a hay grinder called a hay buster can shred 2000 pounds at a whack. Scot: [9:57] And that's a lot of power. Shawn : [9:59] Yeah, it's powered by a tractor. So we, you know, agricultural loan for tractor and hay grinder. I mean, crazy, crazy story in the beginning. Scot: [10:07] Yeah, as a family, you gotta figure out how to get it done, right? Whatever it takes. Shawn : [10:12] Whatever it takes. Scot: [10:13] I didn't know the Richard Branson thing, so that was interesting. Did he like, was he an active investor, or that's like one of those things where his people kind of take over and you never hear from him again? Shawn : [10:22] No, I mean, it was a weird situation. He had a reality TV show, 2004-5, The Rebel Billionaire, you know, whatever, 16 contestants. It was like The Apprentice, but not for apprentices, for entrepreneurs. So my runner-up on the show was Sarah Blakely of Spanx, gives you an idea. Scot: [10:38] Oh, okay, cool, neat. Shawn : [10:39] Yeah, yeah, so we became great friends, she and I, Richard and I. I ended up also being named President of Virgin Worldwide for a minute as part of the prize, believe it or not. So, worked with Richard, worked with all of his CEOs. Totally weird outcome. And, you know, but huge, huge blessing and a huge piece of story. And he was involved in sort of our VC round that ensued on the tail of that. Scot: [11:06] Okay, and then I think I saw that you guys were on Shark Tank, right? You were like one of those that you know, kind of one of the big success stories. Was that the OG Shark Tank or? Shawn : [11:16] No, we weren't on Shark Tank. A lot of people thought that. There was a Love Sack copycat that's on Shark Tank. Okay, and so they got... Scot: [11:23] I was confused because like Google says you were and then I was like, but then I couldn't find the episode. Jason: [11:28] There's a whole TikTok channel dedicated to Love Sack and Shark Tank and it's super weird. Shawn : [11:36] That's super, yeah, people get confused. Scot: [11:42] Yeah, yeah, super weird. Yeah. And then when you did your IPO, was it a traditional IPO or did you guys get caught up in the SPAC craziness? Shawn : [11:51] No, we did a traditional IPO back in 2018 and you know, our stock has been really volatile for lots of different reasons that, you know, COVID was crazy, but the company performance has been really solid. So we're just trucking. Love Sack's Traditional IPO and Company Performance Scot: [12:06] He, I think, was at Graham that said in the short-term it's an emotional machine, in the long-term it weighs your financials. So you got to, it's very hard, you know, I took a company public, not to the level you have. And yeah, it is, I was like, I'm not going to look at the stock, it's not going to influence me. And then suddenly everyone's like, are we making the quarter? And it's like, okay. And then suddenly it's very hard to get out of that, that short-term mindset. So congrats to you for sticking to it for so long. Shawn : [12:29] Yeah, look, I'm actually a big advocate of it, having lived inside of it now for almost six years. Scot: [12:36] Yeah, the transparency is good, you know, and I like that part of it, I think that's good for, you know, to kind of have to put out everything that you're doing, you know, it's a, the ultimate, yeah, it's like, yeah, transparency tends to be a good thing. Shawn : [12:48] I think it's the right way for companies to be governed and ran. Anyway, we could get into that if you want. Scot: [12:56] Yeah, I like the, you know, and you talked about all the other, we call them digitally native vertical brands, like the Warby's and Bonobos and all that. And yeah, a lot of them have not made it past kind of like that hundred million dollar level. And you guys have obviously, you know, six, seven X that, which is awesome. And then, you know, the big knock on Casper for a long time was as we've actually had this guy, Dan on the show, people were able to pick apart the CAC LTV and they found the average selling price was like, Jason will know these numbers, but it was like 350 and their cost to acquire a customer was 400. And they were like, you know, that obviously wasn't sustainable. So it's pretty neat that you guys have figured that out. Shawn : [13:36] Yeah. I mean, that's at the root of why obviously we've had some sustained success. And I think it's also at the root of why there are almost no other direct consumer brands making any money. End of story, full stop. And it's pretty fascinating to watch the whole thing unfold, because it really has been a movement for almost a decade. Scot: [14:01] Yeah, and I don't want to dig into the information you don't divulge publicly, so this is not a trap or anything but is it because the selection or your products, you've kind of cracked the code on Kakao TV, like what do you, and I don't want to know any methods or anything. and what do you attribute it to? Shawn : [14:18] Look, I think, let's start at the root. I think that many companies, product companies, let's start there, overlook the fact that you need a really good product. I think they pick a category and they say, oh, it could be a direct consumer brand. And the truth is, what does that even mean? Do you mean, because here's the funny thing. When I hear analysts and industry people talk about direct consumer, it has become synonymous over the last decade as it's unfolded today with e-comm. Oh, you mean you're an e-comm company and in many cases you do half of your sales through wholesale. So what does it even mean? I mean, if you want to talk about a direct consumer brand, LoveSack may be the most direct. We don't have any wholesale. I'm talking zero, and we only sell through our own channels, whether it's our website or our showrooms. And we have these partnerships, for instance, where we operate our own showrooms inside of a Best Buy or a Costco. [15:26] But you know, so this whole phrase even, direct-to-consumer, I think is really kind of silly. You mean you're a company that sells stuff online and maybe in showrooms and maybe in wholesale? So you're a company that sells stuff. So let's start with stuff. And you have to make, I think, if you want to be successful in the world, it's not a new concept. You have to have... A great product or or you have to have some other really. Hiller efficiency The Importance of Having a Differentiated Product [15:52] and i think what most have discovered it was a list again over this long decade of direction sumer evolution is that without a really differentiated product. You're just another company with a clever name lots of funding and if you throw lots of money at anything it's gonna grow. But you need to be differentiated. So Love Sack, you know, start with the giant beanbags. They were unique, especially in their day. There's tons of copycats out there now. [16:24] Sactionals are extremely unique. The problem is they photograph just like any other sectional sofa. Like if you took an image of Sactionals and an image of one of, you know, out of any competitor that sells couches, ours looks a lot like theirs. But the difference, the differences are myriad in terms of their washability, changeability, quality, and modularity, and many of those aspects, especially on the modular side, are patented at LoveSac. And so once you dig into it, you find that that's the number one driving factor, is we have a product that's truly differentiated, truly gives more value to the customer, and therefore, we can extract more from the market. It's really that simple, right? And that's at the root of why our CLV to CAC ratio it was so high and sustainable and cash-generative and profitable. And then we could go down all kinds of other paths. We could talk about our website, execution and stuff like that. And all of it needs to be there. Look, running a business is multifaceted and difficult. But at the root of it is that. Jason: [17:27] For sure. One of the things I sort of admire about your company is the original premise was not to have a particular go-to-market strategy. It was to have this great product that people wanted to have in their lives, right? And it feels to me like that, the whole quote unquote D to C movement, like this notion that before you solve any other problem, you're just gonna put a flag in the ground, like this is how you're gonna go to market, that just, it just seems silly because that may not be how the customer wants to acquire your product. Shawn : [18:00] Yeah, I think you're right. And I think that, so I think that whole movement that we're a part of, so I don't mean to like bag on the movement. I'm just an observer as well. Like I've been living in it, right? And we put, and I'm being really transparent, we put on those clothes very intentionally. [18:16] Because people that planted those flags were getting funded. People that planted those flags were being understood at the time. And these movements come. Right now, I could hold up a flag that said AI on it and go out there and raise a bunch of money and do something. And in the end, 99 out of 100 of those, flags are going to fall by the wayside after having tons of money thrown at them and Probably 1% of them will go on to you know be the next Googlers or who knows what right? But these movements come and go and and and I'm and this is what I'm saying You gotta be careful. I'm not bagging on the movement because these movements are useful these movements drive economic activity these movements drive innovation But they're often way overhyped, not as, I think, not as, so, you know, I mean, we could get into AI, you guys are, I'm sure, tracking it just like I am. What does that even mean? Oh, you mean like software? You mean like software that, that does stuff in an automated fashion? Like is that, is that, is it really that new? But it doesn't matter. It's a story that's being heard. It's a story that's being understood and it's where the momentum is. And so if you're able to wield, take advantage of these movements in the marketplace to your end, that's what, and that's exactly what LoveSack did. We put on those clothes, we took a concept that had been around for a long time, our concept. [19:42] And look, in the end, the thinking and the development and even like, let's say the web services and all the things available to that movement that The Value and Overhype of Market Movements [19:49] were spun up because of that movement, we benefited from. The money raising pricing aside, momentum, going public, whatever, all these things aside. So that's why I'm saying I think that there is value in these movements, but fundamentally, you still need to have a great business, a great product, something that's truly differentiated, because anyone with some funding can go out, buy a logo, buy a name, and look like they know what they're doing. Jason: [20:20] And yeah, for sure. And to your point, there's a, there's a funny data by going around in, in our industry this week that like over a hundred million dollars or I'm sorry, Amazon's GMV is, I'm sorry, a hundred billion dollars of Amazon's GMV is from AI. And you hear that and you're like, oh my God, that's huge. And then you find out it's product recommendation tiles that they launched in 1997. Shawn : [20:45] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jason: [20:47] Which, yeah. Yeah, so I do just want to like kind of wrap up this section, but put it in context. When you open that first store in a mall, like the mall competition for furniture stores was like Expressions Furniture, right? Which no one on this call would even remember probably. And then like by the time you really, after your IPO and really caught fire, you were competing directly against all these D to C companies that were expanding in malls. You were probably competing for leases. Shawn : [21:18] Yeah. Jason: [21:19] It's quite the, quite the journey. Now, Scot mentioned at the beginning of the show that you had recently started a podcast and I'm two part question. How the heck did you have time to start a podcast and tell us what the premise behind the podcast is and what you're talking about? Shawn : [21:36] Sure. Yeah. Just to comment first on what you pointed out, there is this whole strip in the malls now out there right now. But by the way, in these shopping malls that I was told were dead, you know, I could read the headlines of shopping malls are dead back in 2001 when I was opening my first shopping mall and I was forwarded those kind of emails by friends and family who were concerned. And here we are in 2023 and while these things change, they take decades to change. Meanwhile, they've evolved and you have all of these direct consumer players now and it It just cycles through, you know? What the players inside of these shopping centers happen to rotate, and I've watched it all evolve, and by the way, they're rotating again, because a lot of those players are not viable. Some of the best ones, biggest ones, you know? Like, concepts like Peloton, who I think is amazing as a concept, you know? They have their struggles, and so we watch these things evolve. In terms of, the podcast is relevant to this. Let me explain why. We had the chicken, I'm going to go, given the nature of what your podcast is, I'll give you a much broader picture than just, hey, why am I recording a podcast on my own and writing a book? [22:55] It works like this. We had the chicken before the egg. Sactionals being the chicken, we discovered, as we observed and had success with it, we believe are so successful because they are are built to last a lifetime and designed to evolve. Like those two attributes in our product are quite unique. And those two attributes underpin what we call our designed for life philosophy. Sactionals: Built to Last, Designed to Evolve [23:21] I did not found Love Sack to make products that are super sustainable, sustain hyphenable. In other words, things that actually sustain. Who's talking about that? I was just trying to survive. I made a big beanbag, people liked it. Made a couch because people were asking about couches. who has solved all these problems, observed the success, and that success was rooted in the fact that things were built to last, designed to evolve. Now that's led us to this whole philosophy that will inform our innovation on every product going forward, and it's why I'm so confident that we can continue to succeed, is because of this design philosophy that I'm sharing with you openly. Because it's one thing to say it, it's another thing to execute to it. That's the hard part. It's the execution that's the hard part, you know? Now, that said... [24:08] I'm trying to drive a movement. I believe that there are many people that are sort of aware now that we have been conned into buying too much crap. New season, new collection, the merchandising hamster wheel, new iPhone, now it's got a titanium band. Really? Everyone knows. No, it's not even hidden. It's not even like a secret. it. This whole hamster wheel called planned obsolescence that was not an accident, it's absolutely an economic strategy to lift us out of the Great Depression and onward. And it has roots all the way back to Louis XIV. What's my point? The world has just, I guess, accidentally, not so accidentally, fallen into all kinds of rhythms that are unhealthy, unsustainable, and not good for anyone, not good for the environment, not good for people, you know, we're frenetically chasing out. Now my jeans are too tight, now they're too loose, now they're too long, now they're short, now I got, now they got to show my ankles, now they got to drape over my, like, this is not an accident. This is a self-propelling machine that we have created. What's my point? I believe we can drive a movement amongst people to reject that. And I believe factionals is one of the embodiments of that. Things built to last a lifetime are designed to evolve. So that movement is actually my long-term strategy. [25:33] In the near term, I need to... One of the ways that we will reach people besides buying advertising and using it to drive a strong CLV to CAC ratio is through... I don't know, even podcasts like this is through people finding our brand, finding out about me, finding out about the company through... Whether it be me, whether it be through the goodwill of our customers, sharing this or that, the other. And so I wrote a book called Let Me Save You 25 Years. It's our clever story Driving a Movement for Sustainable Consumerism [25:59] at Love Sack. It's really great. I think it launches in January. I spun up a podcast called Let Me Save You 25 Years where I share my own entrepreneurial mistakes, miracles, and lessons of the Love Sack story. That's the subtitle of the book. That's the spirit of the podcast. I talk to successful people, some of the world's most successful entrepreneurs and successful people about these concepts. And it's not an interview podcast. We go really deep into some of these concepts. So my long-term goal ultimately, is to write another book that can help drive this consumer movement that I'm describing because I think if we can get a little bit of luck and get people thinking about these things and then eventually seeking out. Products that can do this, and just a lifestyle that is supported in the way that I'm describing. Buy better to buy less. Buy better stuff so you can buy less stuff. Well, obviously, LoveSack will benefit from that as a company that makes better stuff. And so, look, it's a long, long, long, long way around, but you asked the question, and I'm totally serious about that. Scot: [26:58] Yeah. So I'm gonna guess you're not a fan of fast fashion. Shawn : [27:03] No, I mean, that's obviously gonna be I made the topic of the book, you know? Scot: [27:06] And I'm not. Jason's a huge Xi'an fan, so you just really hurt his feelings. No, I'm just kidding. Jason: [27:11] Hey, I wore a Patagonia, a used Patagonia jacket in honor of tonight's show. What are you talking about? Shawn : [27:18] You are speaking my language, man. And look, it's not even about being a tree hugger. I think that people have a brain. And people, I think, are waking up to the idea after the iPhone 15, that holy crap, Apple probably should have been forced to innovate a long, long time ago. Biggest company on planet Earth because they sell us the same thing every year or two. Had we not allowed them to do that, they would have had to use their enormous treasure and enormous skill base to innovate into other categories and and change the world. Instead, we've allowed them to sell us the same thing every year. Scot: [28:06] That's an interesting ethos. Having built a company, about how many people are in your company at this point? Shawn : [28:12] Total about 1,500. It's about 400 at the headquarters and another 1,000 out in the field-ish. Scot: [28:19] Yeah, you're at that phase where there's people at the company that you've never really met before. And it's awkward because they always expect you to know their name and they all know your name. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when you get a company to that scale, how do you keep innovating? And, you know, one of the ones that I really love that you guys have done is the Stealth Tech. I think that's genius because I love AV and like having a really immersive experience. And I'll let you explain what it is, but, you know, my wife hates the big black speakers that I try to put all over the house. So I think it kind of solves like six problems in one. So A, maybe let listeners know a little bit more about what we're talking about. And then be I'd love to hear like how do you guys you know it's really hard to kind of you know ideas are easy and execution is hard on execution. It's really hard to like you know nail what you're doing and you have a lot going on and then like keep innovating. How do you how do you like get the org functional that way? Shawn : [29:16] Yeah. I mean, I think number one is you have to, you have to really want it, you know, not, not just like, Hey, I want to, I want to get, I want to get more business. I want to sell more stuff. Obviously there's that. But this ethos that I just kind of unpacked for you that, that we tripped stumbled into does the design for life ethos animates this organization. Like, it is a lot of, it is very motivating to think about, holy cow, now that we know our purpose, and it's been identified, right? Inspiring humankind to buy better so they can buy, you know, everyone's like, it was purpose, purpose, purpose, and hire some consultant, you know what I mean? But for real, if you have something that's truly unique, and it's meaningful, it's not just like words on the wall, it really is motivating, it's exciting. Scot: [30:11] And you bake baked in the products have to get better too, right? Like you, that's not well, so you have to support it. Shawn : [30:17] That's exactly right. Like, yeah, like we have to make stuff that's built to last a lifetime and design to evolve, which is really hard because if it was easy, everyone would do that. And here I am telling you openly about it. Like that's what we're going to do. And I'm not afraid to tell you because most companies won't do it because it's just freaking hard. Like it's a lot easier. Like why doesn't love sack? You know, you brought up stealth tech. So Stealth Tech is full Harman Kardon surround sound, no quality sound loss audio. Perfect audio emanating from your couch through the phone through the next layer of fabric and through the decorative layer of fabric that's washable, changeable, removable, tuned down to the color of that fabric so that the audio is perfect rear, front, center, subwoofer, invisible, beautiful, because you don't see it, it looks just like a couch, and it has all that packed in there, it's radically successful. It's been, it's now a huge piece of our business. And nobody saw that coming, because what would they expect a couch company to do next? A couch beanbag company. An end table, a coffee table, a rug, a lamp, you know, decorative accessories, get into the bedroom, who knows, right? Like the obvious stuff. Scot: [31:32] Meatballs. Shawn : [31:32] And what, yeah, right? Why did we do that? We anyway, we saw the opportunity and we also invented it. So one is, Innovation and the Evolution of LoveSack's Product Line [31:40] to answer your question, a lot of play. We are constantly at our innovation lab playing. So it's not just consumer-led insights, which is a big piece of what we do, but it's also a lot of inventions. You gotta have teams to invent. You gotta have engineers. You gotta have, so you gotta support that. So there's a cost structure there. And that's why LoveSack is quite profitable, but not as profitable as it could be in the future, because we are investing in innovation. And there's a lot of heads. there's a lot of engineers, there's a lot of designers doing things. Now they're not just all running around playing, they also have a very disciplined approach to executing on innovation, like launching Stealth Tech a couple years ago, and bringing that to market, which is a heavy lift because it's our invention, it's our patents, and it was not easy for this beanbag company to get into home electronics in a real way. [32:29] We've done, I think, more than 100 million in home electronic sales and making us a pretty, a pretty big player in that space, believe it or not. Already, and I don't think most people even, you know, would think that. But we're, you know, totally serious about it. So, innovation, wrapped around an inspiring path to innovation, I think is the key. Do you have an inspiring path, or are you just trying to make more stuff? Because if I wanted all those things I mentioned, like I'm over here in Asia right now, I'm in Hong Kong. And if I wanted a whole line of living room furniture with our logo on it to make myself feel good, I could have it in four weeks. The suppliers will do it for me. They've been doing it for 30 years over here for all the biggest brands you can think of, you know? And we could give them some designs and give them some ideas and let our, I mean, it's so easy to just source stuff. I'm talking about, you know, product land. Now we're talking fashion, talking furniture, talk any category you want, the same is true. But to truly invent stuff's a lot harder. And that's why I think we've had success, that's why I think we will continue to have success. Jason: [33:35] Yeah, you know, so I am interested, I mean, obviously the product has to be the lead in solving that real problem for a customer. But I do think another helpful aspect to your business is that in order for those products to be successful, like, they have to be demonstrated somehow. Like, per your point, the catalog for the StealthTech sectional looks just like the catalog for a generic sectional. And so I'm thinking you having your own showrooms was a big advantage for being able to tell the story. And ironically, I'm not sure you opened that first showroom because you recognize that problem. It sounds like you opened that first showroom because you had no other way to get distribution. Shawn : [34:21] Oh yeah, yeah. And that's why I'm not taking any claim as some kind of marketing genius. We just kind of tried to survive in the beginning. And opening a showroom was actually a reaction to being rejected by the big furniture guys, because they didn't, you know, want our product, they didn't believe in us, whatever. They couldn't see it. And so thankfully, it went that way. And by the way, they weren't showrooms, they were stores. We were a furniture store for a decade and a half. And we did all the furniture store things. And we sold merchandise, and you pulled your car around and we loaded you up, believe it or not, or we shipped to you. And it took us a long, long time to, after copycatting all those furniture stores and hiring merchandisers and window dressers and all those kinds of things from our competition to do that stuff in our stores. [35:14] To make that pivot to the direct consumer model that we operate on today that obviously looks very prescient in today's model. Now, the reason I think we've been so successful at it is because we had those 15, 20 years to get really good at operating now 250 locations across every state, almost in the United States of America, where people are fighting and bickering and hiring and firing and touching each other, whatever it takes. The point is operating physical showrooms is not something you get good at in a day or a week or a year just because that seems like the next thing to do. We have a website, now people need to see our stuff, to your point. And that's the approach I think a lot of the direct consumer brands have taken. And I don't think that they realize how hard it is to be profitable at retail and how many pitfalls there are. Where if I want to get a little better at digital marketing, which I think we're pretty good at now, but I can hire that. I can agency that, I can platform that. And so I think that the physical side of things is really underestimated. And so thankfully, our very long haphazard history has played out in our favor in that realm. And I think it's a huge strength of ours, because by the way, now that the economy's pulling back and this and that, we're 250 locations ahead of most that are just really coming around to the marriage of physical with digital and not realizing that, You know, it's not something you can just turn on and be good at. Jason: [36:44] Yeah. And I think it's you, you rightly pointed out that like the whole landscape of DTC hasn't been particularly successful. There's not a lot of wins, but the, the people that are outperforming the average, even one thing they all have in common is they all have some kind of physical footprint to, to reduce CAC, right? So they're either have their own stores or they, they are white selling through wholesale, or they're, they're in front of customers in some way, The Strength of LoveSack's Physical Showrooms in the DTC Landscape [37:09] other than, than Facebook ads. Yeah, I, I did. I think there's a super interesting new evolution. I thought I read about though. So like Amen stores and showrooms are super complicated. People wildly underestimate how many mistakes you can, you can make owning and operating a retail store. And now, now that you seem to have that clicking, you guys are bringing the retail store to the customer's driveways. Is that true? Like talk to us about the mobile concierge. Shawn : [37:37] Yeah, so just like we're innovating in product, we're also always innovating go to market. So whether it's mobile concierge, which is a lovesack trucks, where you can, you know, from the comfort of your home, have us pull up in the driveway and show you our products, which we've which we've dabbled in, and have tested into. And we'll see, you know, where that goes. I think that that has its own just like retail has its own complications, but also more, I think, more. I guess scalable already is Shop and Shop. So our showrooms right now in shopping malls, they're only like 800 square feet. So obviously the metrics are great, right? We're selling very big ticket items out of very tiny footprints with a small staff. There's just good metrics. And I don't hide from that. That's been a big part of our success, right? So we chose a good category in that way. We chose a terrible category in the sense is that the home category has all kinds of other issues. Jason: [38:38] Not the easiest category to deliver the product. Shawn : [38:41] Yeah, I mean, there's delivery, but there's also just the cyclical nature. You couple that with the idea that, look, we are selling you something that we are intending you to have for decades. My sectionals in my home are 16 years old, some of them, made with brand new pieces, made with Stealth Tech. That's pretty cool. On the other hand, unless we give you Stealth Tech and other reasons to come back, like, you know, you've got your satchels and you've made your investment. And so look, we deal with cover. So we're innovating on product, we're innovating on go to market, shop and shop. So these thousand square foot showrooms have been very useful for us. We have 200 square foot showrooms inside of Best Buy's or Costco's, where our people are basically checking you out and allowing you to kick the tires on the product. And then look, whether you buy there or whether you go back and buy online, we don't care. We built an agnostic platform where we just want you to be in the family. So I think these are things that have evolved over time and you've got to test and learn, whether it's mobile concierge, as you described, whether it's shop and shops. And these tests and learn activities can take years to play out and really take to scale and stuff like that. And so I think in this day and age of, hey, I'm gonna go raise a ton of money and build my company to X revenue and exit for X multiple, which is I think Testing and Learning: Mobile Concierge and Shop and Shop [40:05] what drives a lot of entrepreneurial activity. [40:09] That kind of mentality just doesn't have the staying power necessary. And that's why you see so many of these brands reach a point where they have to be retooled, like some of them are going through now. And look, they've made someone rich. Sometimes these founders find ways to squeeze a bunch of money out of it, or private equity tosses the hot potato to the next guy and they make a ton of money out of it. But in the end, what's left? a brand that is at scale, doesn't make money, and can't go anywhere. So my point is you gotta have the stomach to grind it out, to spend the time, to really slow cook some of these things, and to be flexible when they don't work, and shut them down and move on to the next. And so constantly innovating on go-to-market, constantly innovating on product, and really putting in the time and energy it takes to refine concepts, you know. Scot: [41:03] I know we're running up against time, and you've obviously spent a lot of time thinking about this. I know your goal is to bring this ethos out, but if you think about retail and e-commerce, what do you think the next five years hold? You talked about AI. There's a lot of this stuff that's temporal, but anything you think that you believe is going to change the way we shop and buy, either in-store or online? Shawn : [41:29] Yeah, look, I think that it will just continue to evolve, and so I think AI is real. I think it will play a transformative role, and I think everyone's trying to figure out exactly what that is, and nobody really knows yet. I wish I could just give you a clever answer, but I think I've witnessed, AI's transformative role in the future of technology [41:53] you know, that's What's the benefit of having a 25-year perspective is it's like I was saying about shopping malls. The mall is dead, headline from 2001. TV is dead, headline from 2008. Here we are with both of them still intact. By the way, TV advertising is still a big piece of our marketing spend. I know that's kind of mind-blowing because it seems like everybody's cut the cord or gone to this extreme. And I'm just telling you, these movements take decades. And so while it's great to be ahead of a movement, you don't, unless you are trying to drive that movement, like unless you are trying to take advantage of that AI, boom, to go raise money and wave that flag or whatever. [42:40] I've found it's okay to be a laggard. It's not always beneficial to, unless you're trying to build your concept around that and take advantage of that movement itself, let the movements evolve. So I can't give you a great prediction of exactly what's going to happen. AI is important. But how, where the winners will actually be and what the effects will actually be, I think it's way too early to tell. But I do think it's important to keep your finger and keep watching and eventually, you know, to find the connection and lean into that to affect your business. You have to be a little bit patient, I think. Jason: [43:27] Yeah, well, certainly 25 years in, I think you've earned your patience creds, by the way. Shawn : [43:35] Maybe too much. Jason: [43:37] Yeah, I mean, there's pros and cons to both. Urgency can be useful in certain circumstances, but short time horizons come with a lot of problems, as you have rightly pointed out. That did lead me to one sort of thought question. And you, you referenced some of your, your CAC economics and side note, we've, we've one of the, our favorite guests on the show is this professor Dan McCarthy. Who's, who's a huge advocate for cohort analysis and customer lifetime value based businesses. And so he would be thrilled that you're on, because I know you guys disclose some of your cohort metrics in, in your financial statements, which he loves. And to me, you're in a really interesting category to do that because although your product has invented a reason for customers to come back and you've sort of turned a product into a system, it's not like a fast cycle, right? Like, and so like when you're thinking about like a time horizon for LTV, and you guys have a very good return on your CAC, but compared to most companies, your CAC still is really high, right? Like, you sell a lot of product to compensate for that. Shawn : [44:57] Yeah. Jason: [44:58] So how, like, you know, you're spending five or six hundred bucks to acquire a customer and then you're earning thousands of dollars on each of those customers. Like, was it difficult to sort of have the financial discipline to have a long enough time horizon to see those sorts of high CLVs come back for that initial customer acquisition? Shawn : [45:23] Yeah, I mean, you could call it discipline. In our case, again, it was just survival, being really transparent. You know, we were just trying to find a way to make this business work, and we weren't profitable right out of the gate. It took us many years to get better at retail, to get better at e-commerce, to have a shopping cart experience that was commensurate to the product, because that's really hard with our product. Our product is really weird and complicated. And so that's something that's overlooked with Lovesack. And I think a lot of our copycats and competitors are realizing that. You can't just use a Shopify checkout if you're going to sell something as dynamic as, let's say, factionals where, you know, you can buy a bunch of these and a bunch of those and combine them in a million different ways. How do you, how do you shopping cart that? How do you Amazon that, you know? And so, and so these are superpowers that we've developed over a long time and thankfully given it enough time to become profitable. So to answer your question about, you know, patience, I think part of it is just been our lot in life to, to be, to have patience forced on us. But secondly, real discipline around. [46:32] Our CLV and CAC metrics. So we are, we are, and have been for a long time, carefully monitoring them, tracking them, constantly innovating and refining on the marketing side, these things that I mentioned, whether TV, you know, over the top, linear, nonlinear, digital marketing with its 500 heads, you know, like I'm talking about species of digital marketing, it's such a big word, right? I have to be constantly and tirelessly refined and risk taken and stuff tried and stuff failed and all rolled it and it all rolls up into that CLV to CAC ratio that you can hope you can keep moving and then couple that with innovation so that people can come back and buy more. And so thankfully, look, we chose a category with a high ticket and that drives the lion's share. That first purchase drives the lion's share of that CLV to CAC relationship. But our long-term point of view now is not only to find other ways that we can do more of that, maybe even in other categories and adjacencies. [47:32] But also give like StealthTack, give people a reason to come back and add on. And then by the way, when they do come back, then they face the consequence of, well, what do I do with some of these things that I need to, let's say, I get StealthTack and I got to swap out two of my sides. Well, okay, the obvious answer is I don't want to throw those in the trash. We don't want them throwing them in the trash and they may not need another couch in another room. So it's leading us to services, trade in, trade up, recycle, you know, all kinds of things that will again, give us more reasons to reach out and touch that customer. And so I think that if you relentlessly pursue. [48:13] A good concept with good intentions being driven by good philosophy and purpose like I've described, it's been my experience that the universe kind of unfolds for you, but it doesn't do it overnight. And you can't just have a, at least in my experience, you can't just have a master plan and be like, we're gonna do this and then that and that. You have to iterate to it. You have to observe, you have to live some, like when we launched Stealth Tech, we just, you know, it's easy now to look back in hindsight and be like, well, of course people are gonna want to or trade in their sides or do whatever. But some of those things aren't always so apparent. And you need to plunge yourself into the pool, see what comes of it, and then react to that. And some of those reactions can take years to unfold. Like some of these services that I just described and whatnot, they'll take us years to manifest. [48:59] But the nice thing is, the core business can generate profits that will carry us to that and we'll invest some of those profits in that innovation that I'm describing. But it's like, it's just relentless, man. It's tiring. It's like you have to have the stomach to go the distance. And that's where the time horizon, look, I'm a big advocate of it. Culturally, you know, like when my whole organization knows, like the theme of our manager fest a month ago, this is where we all get together once a year, was 25 and 25 more. And I'm not kidding. Like my personal point of view, if I'm allowed to be here as a public company CEO, if I do good enough to stay in the seat, which is inherent, and that's why I love the structure. It forces you to be awesome, you know? [49:45] If I can do that, but the fact that my organization knows that I'm in for another 25, you know how grounding that is and stabilizing that is, as opposed to, man, when's Sean's gonna sell his stock and bail and go start his next company? That's what I'm supposed to do, isn't it? That's how I become a bazillionaire, isn't it? I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in building something. And I think that that, I don't know, desire is actually kind of rare these days. Long-Term Vision vs Quick Profit [50:14] I think everyone just wants to be a bazillionaire as fast as they can. Jason: [50:17] Oh, for sure. Yeah. Everybody's assuming you're going to cash out and invest in your first rocket. Shawn : [50:24] Yeah, whatever. And I think it's sad. Look, I'd love to make a ton of money, whatever. That's all great. But whatever happened to the ambition of let's build something awesome, no matter how long it takes. And that's where I'm at. Jason: [50:41] Yeah. Well, Sean, it's been an amazing run so far. This is going to be a great spot to leave it because we have used up our allotted time, but I know listeners are going to appreciate you saving them the first 25 years, and we're going to be super excited to watch what happens in the next 25. Shawn : [50:57] Thank you. Thank you. Scot: [50:59] We really appreciate it, Sean. I know you're in Hong Kong, you're in the middle of your day there, and we appreciate you coming on the show. If folks want to check out your podcast, where would you point them to? Shawn : [51:09] Yeah, wherever you love listening to podcasts, Let Me Save You 25 Years is the name. LetMeSaveYou25Years.com. You can find me on social media, Sean of Lovesack. I'm all over that and love to be connected, slide into my DMs. I mean, I love talking to customers, friends, peers, being very accessible and looking forward to building the movement. Of course, Lovesack.com. We're easy to find. Scot: [51:33] Trey Lockerbie 41 Yep. And the book's coming out in January and I assume it's going to be in all the usual places. Shawn : [51:37] Sean O'Toole 41 All the usual places. Yeah. Let Awesome. Jason: [51:45] Thanks again and until next time, happy commercing!

EP313 - Holiday 2023 Preview with Rob Garf of Salesforce Episode 313 is preview of Holiday 2023 with Rob Garf, Vice President and General Manager, Retail at Salesforce. This is Robs' fifth time on the show, having previously been on episodes 110, 248, 282, and 299. It's happened again. Your Halloween decorations have come down (or at least your pumpkin is not in good shape), you survived Amazon Prime Big Deal Days, and now you're getting ready to ditch your in-laws and enjoy one of the most exciting retail weeks of the year. Yes, it's time for Holiday 2023! This year, we've decided to do things a bit different by previewing the holiday in advance of Turkey 5. Rob Garf has kindly joined to walk us through Salesforce's e-commerce forecast for November and December, and we compare it to all the other forecasts out there (NRF, Deloitte, Bain, US Dept of Commerce). In addition to the top line forecasts, we touch on retail versus e-commerce, changing shape of the holiday, discounting climate, inventory and supply chain impacts, top performing categories, the economy, and the impact of rapidly growing Chinese brands (Temu, Shein, TikTok). Throughout this episode make liberal use of real-time data from Salesforce Shopping Insights HQ, which tracks how 1.5+ billion consumers are shaping shopping trends. You can see a real-time holiday dashboard, powered by Tableau so you can interact with the data yourself on the Salesforce Holiday Insights page. Episode 313 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded on Wednesday November 8th, 2023. http://jasonandscot.com Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of GetSpiffy and Co-Founder of ChannelAdvisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing. Transcript Jason: [0:23] Welcome to the Jason and Scot show this is episode 313 being recorded on Wednesday November 8th 2023 I'm your host Jason retailgeek Goldberg and as usual I'm here with your co-host Scot Wingo. Scot: [0:39] Hey Jason and welcome back Jason and Scot show listeners Jason is 3:13 the lucky number I had the 13 is kind of on there so I think we'll count it. Jason: [0:48] It's a lot of threes. Scot: [0:50] Yeah yeah I think it's a primal have to get one of our research analyst to work on the okay so we are recording this in early November as Jason said so at that critical part of the retail calendar all the plans are laid the discounts are on the table Cyber Monday. Thanksgiving Black Friday everything's teed up and everyone's waiting in anticipation of what holiday is going to bring us this year. And we know longtime listeners will know that our holiday turkey five coverage with a lot of sprinkling of data is second to none in the industry and this year we're going to take it up a notch in past years we've had our friend of the show Rob Garf VP and GM for retail at Salesforce on after the turkey 5 give us a real-time view of what they saw and for those of you that have been with us very long time this is her Jason's mom primarily those were episodes 110 249 282 and 299 man that's quite a track record this year we are going to take it up and have a delicious rub Garf before and after holiday sandwich it's kind of like that turkey sandwich but we're going to kind of sample it here before we even even have Thanksgiving. Rob before I before I go on welcome back for the fifth and I think record time on the show. Rob: [2:11] Wow I love it this is I will have to call the Guinness book up and make sure we get this knocked in memory on this is fantastic it's always good to be here and even better Scott and Jason and first of all thank you for having me on doing a little bit of a preview because as you mention were normally crawling through the data talking about the holiday weekend and seeing where everything lands after the critical time period and it's fun to take a little bit of a sneak preview and look at what we're anticipating and what we're seeing going into as you mentioned one of the most critical times of the year. Jason: [2:45] I think you're exactly right Rob I don't know why we didn't think of this sooner I feel like they should have always been part of our holiday tradition. And I do feel like we're getting all of the Rob protein with none of the nasty carbs so that's like a. Particularly healthy Thanksgiving treat but Rob before we jump into all of the good data remind listeners what the heck it is you do for Salesforce and how you get all this juicy data. Rob: [3:13] Yeah that's awesome let's by the way the listeners decide you know how. Advantageous this is after the fact I hope it is and again we'll do our best so yeah and I've been I always thinking about it thinking into this conversation now at Salesforce for over 7 years but I came. To the CRM Leader by way of demand where and if you remember demandware now Commerce Cloud was the leader and the cloud space and we instrumented the platform early on to get access to everything that flows. Through our Cloud so you think about all the Taps all the clicks all the swipes. [3:48] Now we don't have any access to personally identifiable information but we bubble that up and it becomes really The Benchmark for what's happening in digital and over the years we've included. Things from marketing and Service as well to look at a more complete buyers Journey. [4:08] And it's been really fun each quarter we release our shopping index which is available on salesforce.com built on Tableau and it's interactive so you can slice and dice it by vertical and by geography and it really helps. Retailers gauge how they're doing vis-à-vis their peer set which of course is extremely important anytime of the year but certainly even more important during. The holiday week now I think there's one thing that I sometimes forget to say so I want to make sure right cover it now which is. Our index and by virtue of that our benchmarks are from a outside in perspective so they are a look at the entire industry, not just Salesforce data we've modeled this over the last 10 years since its Inception so it's really intended to look at. The overall industry and benchmarking how peers are doing rather than speaking to anything that Salesforce is doing so that's my quick infomercial but hopefully more than anything just a little bit of credibility as to where we get the data, what we do with it and most importantly the conversations were able to have similar to what we're doing here. Jason: [5:19] God so that that sounds perfect. I do want just a couple clarifying questions before we jump into the actual data because I know we're going to talk about holiday like what is your official definition of holiday what what dates are you looking at. Rob: [5:38] Yeah thanks for asking that's always an important question so we've defined it over the years as the complete November and December so that's our holiday our peak season look. And we look at in particular for again the holiday weekend I know you call it cyber five or thirty five, we have cyber week which starts the Tuesday before, American Thanksgiving and works its way through Cyber Monday it's just something we started from the beginning and 4y like to like, your rear comparisons we've kept that intact so in on referencing cyber week or cyber five it's really looking at those, those seven days now of course the definition by some has been elongated and I hope we'll get into that in terms of when does the official real demand start but to answer your question straight on Jason it's for us at Salesforce November December. Jason: [6:27] Got it and so for historical purposes you've always been located in November December and then you're predominantly or exclusively focused on digital sales so you're you're reporting on what actually happened and forecasting what you think is going to happen in terms of e-commerce sales but unless I had this wrong you guys don't put a flag in the ground on on what you think is going to happen in brick-and-mortar is that true. Rob: [6:50] That is accurate now we do kind of go on the fringes a little bit because the bleeding between online or the blurring I should say between online and offline so we do have, data on buy online pick up at store we do have data on returns as well which is by virtue of, definition multi-channel omni-channel type of process but we don't put a stake in the ground because we just don't have the intrinsic data to be able to bubble that up and provide on the actuals. Jason: [7:20] Sure and then one other fun fact you reference the shopping index and you always have like the quarterly recap on there but I think. For sure during holidays and I think you're going to tell me your round you actually have a real-time dashboard up there so it's kind of a fun thing during the individual days of cyber week to kind of pop in and see see what's going on after your family Thanksgiving dinner to see if you're still going to have a retail job when this is all over. Rob: [7:50] Yeah yeah we do exactly so during particularly cyber week each morning the team is getting up super early as you can imagine and work around through the data and we're updating in real-time the data from the previous day and so for any retailer who is looking for the latest and greatest certainly by I would say 10:00 eastern time at the latest you will get that and see that up there we do have many customers who do use that in there Roundtable boardroom discussions each day to understand how they're doing it repairing it and more than anything Jason truth be told we need to get it up that early because our boss this guy named Marc benioff is typically texting us saying where's the data because I want to tweet it so yeah as much of a motivator as anything else. Scot: [8:40] Always fun when you get the text from The Seer. Jason: [8:44] Slack's slacks the he sends wax not to. Scot: [8:48] A slacks yes sorry I was off I was off brand for a second yeah he Einsteins it to his his Einstein slacks you. You mentioned one follow-up on that you mentioned American Thanksgiving that prompted me to ask this is largely we're talking about the u.s. here primarily we're not going to this is an international I'm sure you can go International but, we're doing more us right. Rob: [9:12] Yeah I'm prepared to do whatever I thought we'd probably borrow a bit more into us but we do have Global numbers but yeah. Scot: [9:20] Okay we have time Jason's obsessed with these Chinese companies I'm sure he'll ask you some questions so. Rob: [9:25] That's fair that wouldn't. Scot: [9:26] Yeah he gets all his clothes from she in any way. So before we dive into the topic du jour which is this year's holiday 2023 maybe recap for listeners kind of that you know. I know we had you on but the dust has settled and I'm sure you're going back and looking at it now with holiday 22 what were some of the bullet items that you kind of you you're thinking about as we go into 23. Rob: [9:56] Scot you don't think the listeners have totally taken This to Memory what we talked about last November 29 come on. You're probably right that's fine yeah I get it not all of us live and breathe this but yeah let's bring us back and you know actually if I could just for a minute, to put 2022 in context you need to think a little bit about 2021 and let me just spend a minute there and then I'll fast forward to 22 which is if you remember some of us don't want to in 2021 it was truly one of the first times that demand, actually got pulled forward in the holiday season and the reason was. The first mile delivery issues were stuck if you remember so many products were stuck in the port in the US of a Lala. The containers if they even got to the port or having a difficult time getting off the ship in into the domestic supply chain and people saw a headline after headline when I say people like consumers by or shoppers and they realized if they didn't buy early in the season. [11:03] They might not get the product that they actually want because in the past they would just have a waiting game and wait for the last and final deal and so. Demand got pulled earlier in the season and oh by the way retailers didn't have to Discount as steep as they normally do so going into 2020 retailers thought. [11:26] All of a sudden there would be this magical shift to Consumers buying earlier in the year and you know what that just didn't happen, there was actually a really good point of why that didn't happen when you look at the first two weeks of November we saw some of the lowest discounting rates that we typically see during the holiday season and because of these lackluster deals. People really didn't buy anything they waited and they again went back to their normal buying Behavior. One other by-product out of that is those that did by early. [12:04] We saw that they actually return the product during cyber week cyber week last year 2022 at some of the highest. Return rates during that week of the entire season people were doing their own price adjustments if they bought the product earlier in the year and realize they could have gotten a better price so there's like. I don't know how you calculate a triple or quadruple whammy on the bottom line that retailer saw. Because they were hoping to chase the deals earlier or wait I should say for the deals into the season and consumers just didn't bite. Overall and then I'll stop talking for a second here is what we saw. For let's just take cyber week as an example in the u.s. we saw a nine percent year-over-year growth growth online and globally we saw a 2% growth so us was really buoying up the global number there but a lot of that Sales Online happened right before cyber week and through the Thanksgiving holiday. Scot: [13:07] Got it it's kind of coming back to me I Remember You coining The Phrase discount chicken I remembered that is that right remember. Rob: [13:15] Yeah yeah yeah totally and thank you so discount chicken you know for the first time that we saw, retailers won the game of discount chicken last year I'm sorry in 2021 they tried to win again in 2022 but it just didn't happen consumers are really wise the real patient and now especially as they're seeing headwinds in their economic future there's definitely searching out for better and best deals. Scot: [13:46] Yeah this this kind of goes back to our data question it just occurred to me as we were talking about this obviously the macroeconomic is different now does that factor into your when you swirl all this together and you guys put together a funk forecast is that is that an input. Rob: [14:00] Absolutely yeah for sure and another piece that we look at very closely because it's driven so much of the growth over the last two years is inflation as well and so when you look at the last two years much of the online and growth is from increased prices not increased demand so people are just not getting as much from their dollar because of those increases we're starting to see that settle down the last couple quarters which is good news we're not quite seeing in Europe by the way but here in the US and so we're hoping, some of the growth will come from We're anticipating I should say some of the growth this holiday season coming from actual increase demand. Jason: [14:41] God so I want to I want to jump in the big reveal but a quick quiz first if you don't mind so last year us e-commerce growth nine percent G20 21 was also an incredibly abnormal year do you remember what the actual number you guys got for 2021 was. Rob: [15:00] For cyber week that's a. Jason: [15:02] No or sorry for holiday if you don't have it it's fine. Rob: [15:05] Overall holiday for 2021 was nine percent but that's Global so I'd have to go back to see what it was with the US. Jason: [15:13] No problem but so last year in the u.s. nine percent growth which was outlier for because Global growth was quite a bit softer. And so now here we are getting ready for Holiday 23 and what what do you think's going to happen when how much stuff we're going to sell online in November and December of twenty three in the US. Rob: [15:35] Yeah, so we're anticipating here in the US basically flat online growth and anybody I'm talking to is candidly quite okay with that and let me tell you why they're not overly bullish about significant growth online this year. For two major factors one is, we actually looked at the kegger over the last couple of years going back to 2019 and if things play out the way we anticipate we're still looking at for the holiday season compound annual growth of somewhere between 20 and 25% and so we're really where we are better than where we've been in 2019 year-over-year so we're you know we've been looking at these data points for quite some time during the holiday season if we're going to do 10 to 12 to 13 percent year-over-year growth online we're feeling really good and we've seen the average over the last couple of years come out well over that so there's a baseline that we're still needing to consider as we think about growth the second factor is. [16:50] The store. And we can't forget about even though our data doesn't explicitly account for that what we've seen in our data is that people are still going online very, aggressively meaning traffic quarter-over-quarter year-over-year is still really strong however what we're finding is people are then doing what they've naturally done for a long time which is in many cases then go into the store to actually make the purchase and so it doesn't necessarily tell when you look at flat growth year over year for the holiday season the entire story we're still feeling really good about it what helps us by the way one more caveat that I'll put in there and I should have mentioned it's got just a moment ago when you asked how we get to the numbers one of the key influences, is what does it October look like and particularly prime or we should I was about to say Prime day but the prime big deal days and so what we've seen when it first came out a nice halo effect. And we still see a halo effect certainly during the dog days of summer in July since the Inception of prime day. What was that 56 years ago but we although we saw bumps in the early part when it. First was established in October there wasn't a significant halo effect that happened during Pride a meaning those. [18:18] Not named Amazon during the October event we saw nice traffic we though saw really low discount rates once again so people were being patient they're biding their time and so we are seeing some nice add to cart rates as well so we saw people were poking around they were doing their research they were starting to. Think about what their holiday gifting this look like but they were waiting and so that's my long way of saying we're anticipating a fairly moderate holiday but we're not at all discouraged by what we. Jason: [18:54] Totally fair and so and I want to put your forecast in a little bit of context but before I do you kind of open the door on this whole October and shape of holiday thing like hey. Super useful to have historical consistency so I'm glad you guys report. The same time period every year right like I'm by no means proposing that everyone should change periods but it is interesting there's there's a lot more promotional activity. Happening in October than was true 10 years ago right and in very specific ways you convoluted 22 years ago, Prime day was cancelled in summer and happened in October and then they move prom date back to Summer but they added this second prime day and put a lot more marketing behind it this year than last year so and every other retailer on the planet. Counter programs against that that holiday and so there's been a. An increasing amount of pressure to pull sales in in October and then on the flip side a lot of people feel like holiday doesn't really end. And told mid to late January and there's a variety of reasons for that but one very particular one heck of a lot of gift cards get sold and gifted during holidays and they get redeemed. [20:18] Predominantly in January and so I guess I'm just kind of curious I'm not sure you would have necessary data behind this but like it does feel like holiday is flattening out and I know you guys pay particular attention to cyber week which you know is still a huge outlier and obviously we see way more sales on Cyber week than a traditional holiday week but. As a. Relation to the total holiday period it does feel like that spike is starting to flatten out a little bit like do you see holiday getting kind of stretched and flattened. Rob: [20:53] Yeah I love the question in this I feel like we could look back you know in a year or 25 years and do a whole. [21:03] I don't know extensive research project around how, people in mindset and shopping has evolved because it has and of course the pandemic had a big accelerator to that what we've seen in our data Jason is there has been a flattening out throughout cyber week meeting the big Spikes have typically been Black Friday and Cyber Monday and those still remain the two largest online days of the entire year but we are seeing a flattening out throughout the entire week but we haven't seen a lot of the sales, when it's all said and done pulled into October we do see a little bit of a blip in and around, the big deal days and we actually to your point other retailers have preempted the sales and we saw that in July as well meaning doing sales events the week before and it does draw them up, some traffic but we haven't seen a large portion being pulled into that time period what I will also say again lackluster discounts played a big role we're anticipating, comparing big deal days to cyber week cyber week we'll see about a 40% higher discounting rate. [22:28] Then what we witnessed just a couple of weeks ago in October you are totally right by the way that. [22:37] The holiday season does definitely extend through December and into January that's why most every retailer has there. You know fiscal year ending in January so they can really reconcile and get out from under what happened in the holiday not just gift cards but all of the returns and exchanges that invariably happen as well but at the end of the day just put a nice little underscore here is in 2020 and 2021 we did see a bit of pulling forward into October a couple of percentage points of sales but we're forecasting that 25% of all holiday sales will happen again as we Define it the 7-Day is of cyber week. Jason: [23:27] Interesting very cool okay so before we dive into some more granular topics I do you want to put the 9% in context and some listeners will be familiar with Nate silver and his poll of polls in the the kind of boring, boring a political forecast but the way more interesting March Madness forecast so I like to fancy myself as the Nate silver of e-commerce and so I do try to watch all of this data and huge caveat, nobody's data is Apples to Apples right so it's not really a matter of though this number doesn't match up to this number. Everyone has a slightly different definition of what e-commerce means everyone has a slightly different set of dates that they're looking at and they have different methodologies right so your methodology I feel like you get perfectly accurate data from a slice of the market right like there's there's no like. Human. [24:30] Are introducing your data because it's coming right from the systems and that the challenge for you guys is to take your slice and extend that to the the entire world of retail. The and I feel like you guys do that really well. So another data source that of course people are sick of me talking about is the US Department of Commerce which are these like surveys that they force retailers to fill out and. There's. Entirely different challenges and flaws in their survey methodology and how they defined e-commerce but just to kind of put things in perspective. I'm going to talk about they give us both brick-and-mortar and e-commerce data and so I pulled right before a show I pulled their data for the historical averages of November and December and so for the 27 years before covid-19. November and December sales grew, 3.8 5% per year so that's brick-and-mortar that's not related to the number you gave it all so average retail growth in that States of America / the US Department of Commerce in November and December three point eight five percent so and then I remind people the three covid years 20 21 and 22. [25:45] Were the greatest three years in the history of retail right because we didn't let anyone spend any money on travel and we mailed 10 trillion dollars to every man woman and child in America, to spend and so via the US Department of Commerce data 2020 Drew 9.2 percent. [26:04] 20:21 Drew 12.5 percent in 2020 to grew 5.4% so three straight years of, way over the historical average growth right and then using that same methodology they US Department of Commerce reports internet sales I'm way more skeptical of their internet sales because of the methodology in the way they Define it but just to put it in perspective. [26:32] For the 27 years before covid they have e-commerce growing eleven point two five percent a year and so then 2020 when everyone was locked in the house and not going to retail we had this monster year e-commerce group 35% in November and December from their data and then the following year because there was sort of a rebound and a return into two brick-and-mortar sales e-commerce sales were actually lower than the industry average so 2021 they had sales at 10.5% so a little bit off of the historical average and then last year they were the softest of all they were seven point six eight percent which is the slowest e-commerce growth in Holiday in the last 30 years so that's just kind of an interesting context right so the orders of magnitude are all right you had nine percent growth last year they had seven point six percent growth they don't forecast of course and so then I start looking at the forecast and a big forecast that comes out every year we're all friends of the NRF here and there in RF members the NRF just did their holiday forecast their forecasting brick-and-mortar growing three to four percent so. [27:45] Pretty much in line with that historical average that's a deceleration from last year which was 5.4% and they're forecasting internet sales of 7.9 percent so they're kind of perfectly splitting the difference between the US Department of Commerce and Salesforce for whatever that's worth by pretty pretty broad range and so that just kind of passes my quick sanity check Deloitte also does a forecast now deloitte's forecast is a different time range they consider holiday November to January and they're forecasting brick-and-mortar 3.5 to four point six percent so a little more optimistic and they're forecasting e-commerce at ten point three to twelve point eight percent so again a little more optimistic and then Bain did a forecast this year and they have three percent brick-and-mortar so I just wanted to throw that out there that most people are expecting this kind of three to four percent brick-and-mortar growth and this kind of we'll call it eight to eleven percent e-commerce growth. Rob: [28:51] Yeah and I would say given what you just talked about. Others a bit more bullish on the e-commerce growth than we are but I think directionally both brick and mortar and e-commerce are telling a very similar story which is e-commerce is still alive and kicking but it now has to be looked at in the context of brick and mortar and I think there's a lot of factors in that that actually will make the reporting moving forward even more difficult it is making it difficult and Jason you and I have talked about this before it's just the attribution models because it's not just about last-click anymore especially as people might you know in many cases go online and then go into the store where's that last click and how is that I'd be factored so everything from. [29:38] What we had anticipated in seeing around, you know 60% of digital sales now influenced by the physical store because the associate is driving demand through, customer service or client telling or social media or they're fulfilling Demand with being able to, you know pick pack and ship and online order. Or what's happening in digital as well in terms of people buying online and then picking up in or around the store so I think what is super interesting. In addition to what you said is how these metrics might evolve over time because it will depend a lot on, by retailer who's getting the credit and I know that's something that's been talked about for quite some time but literally how to is it how is it being accounted for and what does that do to how their reporting the numbers. Jason: [30:33] Yeah couldn't agree more and just 11 sort of example to illustrate that 11 kind of category that sold almost no meaningful volume online before the pandemic was grocery right second biggest category of consumer spending but none of it was online before the pandemic now depending on how you count ten to twelve percent of its online and guess what it all gets attributed as store sales right because it all it's all bananas that are getting delivered from a store and you know so 100% of instacart sales look like store sales to the retailer. And so it like I agree with you it's just it's just getting more and more convoluted. Rob: [31:14] Yeah well it's an interesting point around grocery you know our data showed in 2020 and most of 2021 we saw Triple digit growth year over year because of what you just talked about you just wouldn't ordinarily or historically by groceries online what drove a lot of that and what I think will drive Behavior moving forward is in 2020 we saw a 40-percent increase of net new. Digital Shoppers so these are people that hang out online but they wouldn't click the buy button and so a lot of those people now want to go back into the store but they're using digital they're using their phone in particular to really be that connective tissue. Scot: [31:55] What's a continue to peel the onion here you hit on this a little bit but tell us more about what you think is coming up in the 2023 cyber week for example if I recall last year Cyber Monday was the biggest e-commerce Day Ever set, is that did you guys agree with that or what's a my misremembering. Rob: [32:14] Yeah yeah so we actually have seen Black Friday actually. Bust up to the largest I know that's kind of hard to how others have looked at it but they're both really strong and we anticipate that being the case again again though we are seeing a bit of smoothing out of demand throughout the seven days. [32:36] Particularly on phones and I guess that's not a big butt when we weren't traveling we saw the Resurgence of you know iPads and tablets and actual regular computers especially when you get nice groovy one Scott like you did just recently but anyways I am getting distracted here by your awesome new computer but. What we are now seeing though is I move back to mobile and what we saw also during Thanksgiving a really strong traffic particularly local times between 4:00 and 8:00 if you think about it that's essentially when people are finishing their Thanksgiving Neil and they need a little break there sitting on their couch and they pull out their phone and so we're seeing a lot of traffic. Via Mobile and social as well by the way we are anticipating and we predicted this going back in June that we're going to see. Traffic via social be at a 10 times higher rate. Than traditional marketing so there's a lot of budget being pushed towards that media and we're seeing. [33:49] A lot of success there now they're still a bit of a gap in terms of conversion rate through that channel but again if you connect the dots mobile. And social happening over cyber week in particular on Thanksgiving it's going to be really strong and we're seeing again retailers lean into that. Scot: [34:10] So Black Friday was bigger growth last year or bigger absolute dollars or both. Rob: [34:18] For us it was biggest absolute dollars the growth was essentially spot-on for both Cyber Monday and Black Friday. Scot: [34:28] Jason and I'm assuming that did other people say it was Cyber Monday or it was at all. Jason: [34:32] Yeah they're they're different different folks had that different Peak yeah so but. Scot: [34:39] Controversy in e-commerce I love it. Jason: [34:41] Yeah controversy and they're getting closer together like they're worth in the early days. E-commerce Cyber Monday was a giant Tower and no one had internet access on Black Friday like that that could really is no longer the case. Scot: [34:55] Yeah well rip Cyber Monday cool I don't have any follow-ups Jason's Europe. Jason: [35:03] Awesome so. I want to jump into one of the other topics you introduced a little earlier so far we've been mostly topping up talking about Top Line which is a kind of easy way to think about this and it's you know it's a it's a kind of easy way to get your brain around it, at the end of the day retailers care a lot more about bottom line and a huge impact on holiday bottom of line is how aggressively in deeply folks have to Discount in order to achieve those sales so, are you guys like what do you forecast I don't know if you have a formal forecast for discounts but what what should people expect from discounting this year versus last year and what what are the trends there. Rob: [35:46] Yeah yeah yeah this is good because I missed a point before that I want to make as a relates to Discount and so this will give me a good opportunity to bring that up but still has to go right at that Jason we're forecasting on average a. Thirty percent discount rate throughout cyber week and again to put that in perspective it was 20% here in the US during the October event for. Prime big deal days again we look at the entire industry not just Amazon as a relates to that and so we're seeing a much more aggressive, discount rate now it's going to differ obviously by different segments you're not seeing as high in luxury as an example we do anticipate for tour toys and a consumer electronics which have been a bit of a softer category over the last 12 months again especially because because of the high Baseline they had because of the growth over 2020 2021 but we're also seeing and this goes back to the pulling forward of demand. Is more and more retailers are providing. [36:55] Black Friday deals throughout the course of November and. What's different in the past was it was fairly opaque in terms of we're giving you deals but we're not really sure those are going to be the best deals right and though we're seeing now much more transparency there's one major retailer that I'm sure you can guess who's doing Black Friday deals throughout the course of November and they are guaranteeing price matches. If for some reason they do go lower and they are also offering buy now pay later so you can commit to getting the product so you don't miss out on it but you can then pay over time and so what really came to life for me in this topic was we were doing a round table. [37:47] In Toronto in June and one of the attendees and she talked about this again at dreamforce in. September so I feel comfortable talking about it is a digital executive from Desi mm which is a cool health and cosmetics and Beauty brand that also has two other brands one called the ordinary and they have something that they've been doing for quite some time calling it, slow vember and their whole point is don't cause any urgency but rather. Make it a more relaxed buying experience and their point is throughout the course of all of November we're going to provide the same exact discount no matter when. And if you buy it and so we're seeing that a bit more and more some of it is coming by way of. [38:38] Early Access or exclusivity but also again extending and providing visibility, part of it is again trying to create that confidence that you're getting the best and final deal and also by the way you talk about the bottom line Jason. Is trying to reduce the Deluge of returns that often happen a lot of retailers. Are changing 88 percent according to our research are changing their returns policies and that's going to be a. Big risk and what and how that impacts holiday purchases this year. Jason: [39:13] Yeah you know it's funny there's so many moving Parts it's so complicated you think about like what a big impact inflation had on last holiday and you know good news like it seems like inflation is going to be lower this holiday. Consumer was in a better economic position last year than it seems like they're getting their sure we're seeing credit and defaults and things like that start start to creep up so there's there's just all these moving Parts but one thing I think a lot of people lose sight of is in the last three years predominately driven by the pandemic every retailer has completely reinvented their supply chain and their demand forecasting and I would argue everybody's way better at it now and they have way more agile Supply chains and there they're they're a lot more accurate with their level of inventory which means. They're more confident they're going to sell through their inventory and that changes their discount strategy like they're just all these moving parts that make it really hard to compare your over year when you know. Preview point the last three years sometimes we didn't have anything to sell and then the next year we had two years worth of stuff to say so. Rob: [40:24] I was just talking about that with an executive just earlier today and how retailers have gotten as you said better at demand forecasting. Better at Inventory management and I joke sometimes although I'm only half joking that supply chain has really come to the front office it's like really part of the customer experience at this point and has such an opportunity, to either negatively impact our hopefully positively impact. The customer experience especially when you're you know trying to find product after the shipping cut off window we're anticipating once again a huge uptick for those that have the ability for Consumer to buy online and. Pick it up in and around the store after. [41:06] The ship and cut off window we're seeing seven times higher growth rate for those that have that capability because essentially you're kind of shutting down your online doors if you cannot. Fulfill those orders after the fact and so but that requires to your point Jason like a lot of tuning. Around supply chain order management inventory oh and by the way store associates as well we have to. You know planned for that extra time that they'll have to take to fulfill that order will have to provide the right incentives and will have to give them the tools as well and I think retailers have gotten better at it. I don't think anybody's fully cracked the code but going back to your bottom line point last year for us the holiday theme was profitability and that doesn't go away I think people have gotten meaning retailers have gotten better at it but certainly always opportunity so I'm glad you called that out. Jason: [42:02] Yeah I like to say profit is cool again. Rob: [42:04] Providence cool again yeah. Jason: [42:06] The if you take nothing else away from this episode profit is cool. The the way it's funny like I joke about this but it's kind of serious when I started my career the the VP of supply chain probably started his career as a truck driver and and today that VP of supply chain like probably has a PHD in data science um so it's a that that occupation has dramatically changed the one other follow-up question. One of the cool things about your data set versus some of these other ones I look at is. You guys have real-time access to the data so as we record this we're eight days into November have you seen anything interesting or there any patterns that have stood out it you does it make you more confident in your forecast or in anything that's interesting for listeners to know. Rob: [43:01] Yeah we did look at the first couple days of November and also of course looked at October it's pretty consistent with what we saw, in Q3 in the US we're basically flat in terms of growth however traffic is up so traffic is up four percent. Orders are slightly down what we've seen which I think again is a very nice leading indicator is, product view rates have increased by 5% and add to cart month-over-month so September to October plus a little bit of November we've seen a slight uptick as well so what that's telling us is people are interested. They're doing their research. They're looking for the best deals they're understanding where the inventory is available and so that they're ready to make the move when they feel like they're getting the best and most value. Scot: [43:58] Cool so it sounds like if traffic's up in orders are down a lot of Tire kick in and kind of prepping and watching and making your list and you know could be the start of discount chicken 2.0 will see. Rob: [44:10] There you go exactly 2.0 I'm using that Scott I'm grabbing that I hope that's okay. Scot: [44:14] Discount chicken the chickens Strike Back. Rob: [44:18] Well and also I mean you talked about kick the tires so I think it's a good opportunity for a promo for spiffy at this point too so don't forget to get your gift cards as well right. Scot: [44:28] Yeah yeah we will be running some promos thanks. Jason: [44:30] And if you do kick your tires Scott can come to your house and replace them for you. Rob: [44:34] Exactly. Scot: [44:36] And shop for the new shoes online. Rob: [44:38] There you go I think there's a mash up there there's going to be spiffy and a DDOS coming together for anyways I don't know we'll leave that to the markers. Scot: [44:48] That's a good segue into my question in the predictions on category so I remember last year you guys had some interesting data on that does your prediction. Kind of data science get down into the category slicing of things or that's going to be more in the rearview. Rob: [45:06] Yeah no we certainly look at that we do it obviously based on what we've seen historically we're anticipating for the holiday. Active apparel active Footwear Health and Beauty being really strong so. You know we talk about the big number because that gets the headline in terms of essentially flat growth but we had tisza Pate some nice growth in those areas it's going to be a challenging partly because of comping as a relates to toys and gaming and consumer electronics if you think about that's just macro trend. People are looking for Comfort part of it is coming out of covid and maybe not all of us getting back into three piece suits but also when you feel a little bit of economic uncertainty I was listening to some Financial show. [46:02] While I was traveling over the last couple weeks and somebody put it as kind of the household PL or the household balance sheet you know when you're looking at that in your making choices you're taking more control of your finances which is happening people often migrate not only obviously to value, and safety they're looking at comfort and so there's something to be said for comfort and shoes and Footwear comfort, in apparel and almost the openness to be a bit more comfortable both in Social and in work situation so what are anticipating like I said active apparel active Footwear Health and Beauty being really strong luxury as well don't sleep on luxury they've been the most resilient category. In the pandemic and coming out of the pandemic and so that end of the market has held really well we're seeing a little bit. Of softness and what I'll call the aspirational luxury but as a whole that category is looking really strong and we anticipate it looking pretty strong, during the holiday as well. Scot: [47:12] Yeah this is old school but I remember a channel advisor going through 08-09 we were always shocked that luxury you know it's like the world is falling apart around us and people are like oh yeah I'll get a get a 400 dog and back it's gone. That part of the market just doesn't care that they're immune to those things I guess. Rob: [47:30] They're pretty resilient. Yeah I mean one other thing I'll throw in there just because I'm talking about it more and more with customers as we think about the holiday more as a. I think Bellwether to what will anticipate next year over the course and this is a global number but over the course of holiday were anticipating 194 billion dollars of online sales being influenced by a. Sorry are you thought you were going to get through this whole I know should I have not done that I'm sorry because you definitely that's on your bingo sheet. Jason: [48:07] Now I have to check the there's a I in this episode flag on iTunes. Rob: [48:11] Exactly well might get some more traffic that way so who knows but we find that super interesting most of it I want to like temper that. A lot because people are getting really excited about that headline is most of it will be from predictive a I like product recommendations which we've been doing for quite some time we're starting to see some early adoption of generative AI whether that's in email marketing with subject lines or body copy for that Saint product detail page with product descriptions or in service super interesting wood Gucci is doing and what they call a Gucci 9 their service center and teeing up responses for their agent to make them more efficient and allow them to scale but also stay on brand and so we'll see that a bit more but again a vast majority like I said it's around globally sixteen Seventeen percent of all sales will be influenced by AI this holiday. Jason: [49:06] That interesting so Rob we're almost out of time but I want to throw a super meaty 12 you for for a final question Scott was making fun of me but I am super interested in these Chinese brands that are capturing attention and share in the u.s. right and in particular that's that's Tim ooh which is has more traffic than Target more sales than Ed see in the United States Xi'an is the largest apparel reseller in the United States and then to a lesser extent Tick-Tock which has the vast majority of consumers attention in the United States and is now trying to sell stuff to people. What super interesting is it's not obvious those guys are all growing at Breakneck Pace much faster than your your nine percent growth number it's not obvious if or who they're taking share from so I'm curious of you if you have any POV it kind of seems like there they're inventing new demand or at the very least they're taking sure from brick-and-mortar it does not appear they're taking sure from the Amazons of the world. Rob: [50:09] Yeah that's awesome I'm glad you're addressing this I've just spent a couple weeks. In Europe I was in four different cities so talking to a lot of luxury Brands talking to a lot of traditional brick and mortars, and this is an area one of the executives put out Tech intermediary and I told him I would steal that and here you go I'm stealing it. Because I would say those that you just categorized are really wedging themselves in between the demand and the supply and they're creating a whole new platform where. It was just an originally with Tik-Tok and others about inspiration and now it's about purchase and so you know what we're seeing in Jason you and I have talked about this got 20 degree as well this idea of embedded Commerce or shopping at the edge. Where the buy button is being pushed up through the funnel on these delivery platforms again these Tech intermediaries I mean if you think about it they're almost like. The next generation of the shopping mall the shopping mall is created because of access because the highway here in the states and it created a place for people to hang out for people to get some food for people to shop. [51:16] People to socialize and because of that hey they could have tenants who that would then pay rent and sell stuff right and it's not dissimilar to what these Tech into mediators are doing in that they're monetizing their traffic I think they're coming after, the brick-and-mortar to a degree they're all so I wouldn't say creating more demand but fraying some of the man from. The brand sites because the brands are showing up there and so I would say there. [51:52] A little bit creating more demand but more than that they're kind of defraying the demand we've seen is. A high degree of growth thirty percent over the last couple of years of growth on these third-party intermediaries that we're talking about and they are taking from other platforms. Jason: [52:14] Interesting I don't know what the real answer is but I do know it's super interesting and important to pay attention to so I'm glad we brought it up but Rob that is going to have to be where we leave it because we have used up all of our allotted time I'm going to make sure to put a link to the Salesforce holiday dashboard in the show notes and super grateful for you taking at time and I hope you have a great Thanksgiving and we're looking forward to talking with you right after Cyber Monday. Rob: [52:45] Thanks Jason Banks got ya looking for doing a short couple weeks looking forward to talking to you then. Scot: [52:50] You robbed remind listeners where they can find your pontification xand and do they just Google the the index to find your daily things or like is there a quick URL that you guys have that. Rob: [53:04] Yeah you know to be honest with you the best way to is go to Google and put in shopping index Salesforce and you'll get to our holiday insights Hub so it not only has the dashboards but has all of the blog's were writing and all of the up-to-date analysis. Scot: [53:20] Cool well thanks we really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to deliver this delicious holiday sandwich for our for Jason I in our listeners. Jason: [53:31] All right you guys be well and until next time happy commercing!

EP312 - Amazon Q3 2023 Earnings Amazon reported another strong quarter across the board for Q3, soundly exceeding analyst profit expectations and retail industry averages. In this episode we break down the AWS AI, Ads, and retail performance. http://jasonandscot.com Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of GetSpiffy and Co-Founder of ChannelAdvisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing. Transcript Jason: [0:23] Welcome to the Jason and Scot show this is episode 312 being recorded on Monday October 30th right before Halloween I'm Jason retailgeek Goldberg and as usual I'm here with your co-host Scot Wingo. Scot: [0:38] Hey Jason and welcome back to Jason and Scot show listeners Jason it's a Halloween Eve hallow Eve but also we just watch the Mac live presentation from Apple or live presented recorded earlier presentation from Apple about new Macs, so I don't know I think I'm going to ask you about Max first are you going to get a new Mac are you sitting out this upgrade cycle. Jason: [1:07] I am on the fence guy of course I want one I have scheduled a meeting with my family CFO to see if I can, I can justify it so so we'll see I did not order one tonight I'm actually. Still super happy with my M1 MacBook Pro so so I know M3 is at least three times better so so of course I want one but we'll see when I pull the trigger what about you is yours already on the way. Scot: [1:38] I have been a while without an upgrade and running a little long on the tooth on this guy so yes I have a new machine coming they were actually pretty generous on the trade-ins you should just do an experiment before you talk to the CFO plug-in that trade in and see if it. Jason: [1:56] That could be the. Scot: [1:58] You a better presentation also if you have an Apple credit card which I'm sure you do they have a really compelling offer there. Jason: [2:07] All right lots of lots of good good things to consider my nine-year-old has made it clear that we're not allowed to trade anything in it. Scot: [2:17] It's got dibs on. Jason: [2:20] He's very he's very aware of the technology trickle down. Scot: [2:24] Oh man well you can somewhere down the stream there's going to be one that you could trade in but I don't think it may have as much impact as your courage. Jason: [2:32] I I don't know if he's ever going to own a computer device with a keyboard will see but yeah he's actually not that interested in my laptop. Scot: [2:40] Speaking of baby geek or I guess now he's I don't know kindergarten geek. Jason: [2:46] Third grade geek. Scot: [2:47] Third grade geek what's he thinking about Halloween I hear he's kind of outgrown Star Wars which makes me casa. Jason: [2:56] He still like Star Wars but he yeah he is not doing a Star Wars character last year he did a Pokemon character he did Pikachu and this year he's stepped up to Charizard so that. Scot: [3:09] Very rare. Jason: [3:11] Enables well I think it depends on which Charizard butt. That steps up the whole opportunity to build pyrotechnics into the costume. Scot: [3:21] All right watch out for some evil Pokemon people that try to capture. Jason: [3:26] Yeah I think the big debate in our house which isn't hasn't fully happened yet is who's trick-or-treating with Stephen and who's staying behind to try to scare the bejesus out of neighborhood kids. Scot: [3:36] I'm thinking you and a gorilla suit or you could be in the last year's Pokemon suit or Pikachu suit that could be a fun combo. Jason: [3:45] Yeah last year I actually had knee surgery only a few days before Halloween so I won by default because I couldn't really walk but this year I feel like I have no good excuse. Scot: [3:56] Right as the title shows the purpose of this as we have some Amazon news to report on. Jason: [4:02] Amazon news your margin is there opportunity. Scot: [4:15] Well Jason it was a kind of interesting setup coming into Earth earning season this quarter the whole world was focused not on e-commerce not on marketplaces not on omni-channel not on payments some of our favorite topics but also not on ads one of your favorite topics but everyone is now obsessed with AI thanks to the success of chat Juju GPT so coming into the quarter Amazon was kind of on the backside of a lot of the other big companies so we had Microsoft come out and they did really well with AI the their partnership with open a.i. / chat gbt is bringing tons of workloads to azure. How much is their cloud computing platform and then Google really underwhelmed everyone with what they're doing there you know they're they're kind of tiptoeing it's very clear that they don't want to kill the Golden Goose that is Google search by putting too much AI to that so allow their experiments are in Bard which is kind of way off to the side I've tried barred three times I can never get it to have the features that they say it should because my corporate Google account you know either won't have access or it says that feature is not here yet. Um and I think people are really starting to worry about Google on this one. So then that teed it up where all eyes were on AWS to see how are they doing and I think we've covered this but. [5:44] The Amazons approach to this is to be kind of agnostic for lack of a better word so they're kind of like hey if you want to use. Any of these different models we're going to basically let you run them on AWS compute and we're going to have all kinds of different graphic Processing Unit or GPU tears available from you know their own chip set to older Nvidia chip sets to the new ones and kind of be y 0, LM bring your own large language model. [6:18] And then oh yeah also Facebook did pretty well and you know they're definitely through the worst of the Privacy changes that Apple put out and they have an approach to AI that is an open source one so they're basically saying hey we're going to integrate this in our products and what we build we're going to put out there kind of almost scorched Earth in a way saying why don't we just open source this thing and maybe that will slow down our competitors who are going to use this to to generate their own revenue and because they don't have a cloud piece they don't and they're pure advertising it doesn't really, Concord hurt them to do this so they're not making Cloud Revenue off of it but it's become a popular one and it's called llama in case anyone is it from there then, okay so just not to leave everyone in suspense because we usually talk about AWS kind of later in the Amazon update we're going to cover it first so the ended up having a really good ADB is showing so I would say people got kind of panicky and we're expecting it to be down and it kind of came in line. [7:22] But what that people excited was part of the talk track on the conference call Co jassy said that they're winning some big AI workloads they talked about some big deals had close towards the end of the quarter that we're pretty significant and what's happening is as you know what's what a i chat gbt is trained on the broader internet and anything that they can throw into there. [7:49] And that's interesting but what's happening is corporations and. Both big corporations for internal use but then also other corporations they're wanting to train a large language model on their data and they also don't want that data to kind of leak into the broader ecosystem so that's that's really benefiting Amazon because it turns out a lot of the data that companies want to train these lme's are are already in AWS so instead of paying all this money to pull the data out of AWS and then synchronize it back into your LM as as Amazon anticipated with this kind of open bring by0 LM model. People are bringing the LMS to them and using the data because it's already in AWS and it's easier for the llm to just kind of go right there and grab it versus moving the data around. [8:44] That may not make a lot of sense so let me give you kind of a random example let's say you're a big added see like I'll pick up, this one called publicist they're out of France and most people haven't heard of them and let's say that that French Ad Agency wanted to save a bunch of money they could take like. Let's say 3:00 of content from like a podcast transcript or something like that. And they could use that content let's say someone of their company like a detailed digital retail payment strategy vice president general manager type person with a big crazy title like that. They could put that data out there and run an llm on day ws and train that data on it. The llm on that data and then they could have for example just picking something random they could have a retailgeek bye. That was basically as good as the human probably ninety percent so good enough but you know this thing could run 24/7 you could actually you could have as many of them you could clone it on two different processors after you get through the training mode and you were in D quote-unquote inference mode and it also doesn't take breaks it doesn't need, Starbucks vanilla lattes constantly it doesn't have expense reports it just. Does its job and doesn't complain and doesn't ask for raises so that's that's a that's a use case that something like that would work did that make. Jason: [10:08] Specific hypothetical there Scott. Scot: [10:11] Is randomly chosen just kind of picked it out of the are there. Jason: [10:14] It almost sounds like the more words in your title the more vulnerable you would be to AI disruption. Scot: [10:20] I thought about that but it is does make sense because that's essentially more tokens for the AI to learn just like right there in your title you're basically asking for it if you're a robot Overlord you're kind of picking on who to go for a first I would look for large titles person. I don't know I don't know how their training these things. Jason: [10:37] There I know you're the investment guy in our podcast but there's this investment theory that you don't you don't, be the little guy chasing the big Trend that way you want to do is identify the secondary Trend and so in this scenario as soon as it seems like a i is ready to replace the the blowhard Talking Heads everyone should short Starbucks seems like the. Scot: [10:59] Mmm that's a good point yeah I hadn't thought about that. Jason: [11:02] Yeah because when I lose my job and can't afford those lattes I feel like something I would like I'll take some solace in knowing that you made some money on that. Scot: [11:14] Yeah they'll be like on their conference call we're still working on the data but we've isolated it to this to block window in Chicago and we're pretty sure we have an idea what's going on. Jason: [11:26] I feel like my Starbucks footprint is a lot bigger than Chicago. Scot: [11:29] Well you know the the core of your Bullseye answers is going around. Okay but in all seriousness this is a really interesting blurb from the call where they talked about their strategy gaining traction and they said there's multiple businesses are using their gen AI That's short for gender of a i. Apps on AWS including Adidas people in our European list listeners I think they call it a deed us but I'm here in America we call, here in South the southeast caught Adidas booking.com and United Airlines. And while Jenny eyes Revenue contribution remains small management suggested Revenue quote compares favorably. To some of the other leading providers and this is this is interesting because Amazon's always mum's on revealing anything until the SEC forces them to break out stuff like, for the longest time we didn't know at AWS was then we didn't know what ads were and then they became material enough they had to break them out so so Amazon under Bezos would never have said those words I've like even hinting about what's going on. [12:35] But kind of is interesting because there's a new sheriff in town and also it shows you how important it is that they let everyone know that they are not falling behind and that their room new quote-unquote compares favorably with other other Cloud providers obviously they're talking about Azure once Wall Street analyst I did it is back of the napkin and he kind of said all right I think that they're telling us this is always funny because it's like six degrees of. You know separation so who knows but they basically inferred what they were trying to say reading the tea leaves was that it's about a 400 million-dollar business and already two percentage points of AWS Revenue. Which was basically zero six months ago so that's that that is kind of an interesting thing that came out of nowhere and is already a 400 million quarterly business so that means it's a 1.6 billion annualized run rate business. [13:29] If they're reading the tea leaves right on that so that was the AI part so I thought I'd be important for us to get that out because that was kind of like the new cycle really centered around that, and it is interesting you know you and I are watching this very closely there are e-commerce ramifications you know there's all kinds of, The Innovation here is so rapid it's hard to keep up with there's all kinds of a eyes for creating product detail pages and you know all kinds of, e-commerce oriented support Bots and it's just like amazing a lot of AI applications for optimizing warehouses it's just like overwhelming how much is out there we're definitely in the, tippy top of the hype curve and you know a lot of businesses are still sorting through all this but that was the that was the. [14:16] Dean on e-commerce retail side of things and non ads with that behind us the other big win for the quarter I thought you'd want to kind of fill us in on was the advertising part what did you see there. Jason: [14:30] Yeah yeah I want to jump into ads I do want to just say quickly it's interesting on the AWS because they posted solid numbers they posted 12 percent growth for AWS and they announced that they won the whole dialogue was about all these AI workloads that you just covered but they haven't recognized much of the revenue from all of these new AI workload wins yet so the this 12% growth feels like. Kind of a win based on the Legacy Cloud business even before you start to factor in all this new traction they're getting, I'm AI workload so so that does seem interesting but I just want to reiterate what you started out by saying which is, the the bed at Amazon is that you're going to want to bring the llm to your data and not that you're going to want to bring your data to the llm and that, intuitively. [15:24] Makes a lot of sense so it seems like investors were always pretty happy with their the AI Cloud case that they made. Um so that being said. As far as I'm concerned an even bigger win for them was the ad business so so they generated 12 billion dollars in ad revenue for the quarter that's up 26 percent versus Q3 of last year. Year-to-date that means they're had businesses up 23% from the year before so you know we're comparing that to like the 11 or 12 percent growth they get on AWS. Um [16:02] The ad business grew 21 percent last year so it's grown 23 percent this year that impugns depending on how you factor in seasonality like a 46 to 50 billion dollar run rate for the ad business right now, so if you take a conservative estimate for the the the, margin rate on that business that's generating 2728 billion dollars worth of ibadah for Amazon which is a huge. Huge business and much more profitable than a WS by the way. So the ad business was very robust and a couple of injured interesting takeaways. Amazon is adding more and more video properties they have Thursday Night Football you know they announced that they're going to start embedding ads and Amazon Prime and they'll have a premium offering to bypass Those ads. So there's a lot of opportunity for. Kind of top of the funnel linear programming ads at Amazon none of that is in this. [17:09] 12 billion dollar number right now or very little like all of the potential they've they talked about for this for these non Commerce ads. Is all sort of incremental the weather getting right now. At the moment the vast majority of all Amazon's ads are bottom of the funnel the the sponsored product listing is by far the most. Popular ad that that's growing particularly well and with the particular mix of economic headwinds we have at the moment, a lot of advertising is Shifting to bottom of the funnel people are less interested in investing in awareness and more interested in investing in sales and Amazon turns out to be, the best destination to take that that those dollars to put them into digital ads that generate. Bottom of the funnel results so this quarter everyone was really interested to hear from the advertising companies, to see if advertisers were going to be cutting back right and so you know you mentioned meta had their their earnings call Google had their earnings call Facebook I'm sorry. [18:17] Snap had their their earnings call and ads were uniformly up across everyone's earning so metas ads were up 23%, Google's ads were up 11% Google broke out YouTube ads which were up 12% snap ads were at 5%. But nobody's ads were up as much the 26% that Amazon's were and nobody has had the consistently rapid add growth that Amazon's had the last three quarters. Um so the economic headwinds like do not appear to be. Putting a huge crimp in the the digital advertising business and they appear to be disproportionately benefiting, Amazon and so then you go wait next quarter they're going to be selling ads on all of their video programming and that could easily add another 5 billion dollars just for in to this this annual run rate so. A lot of green lights in the Amazon ad business. Scot: [19:21] The I'm not a huge Sports person but you mentioned Thursday night football and have you seen and kind of marrying this back today I think if you seem Prime Vision have you played with them. Jason: [19:31] I have yeah. Scot: [19:33] So for listeners what they do is on Thursday Night Football if you watch from actually I do it on my Apple TV and I'm in the Prime video app. And then you can it takes you to the standard broadcast just like every other thing but you can go in and then you hit down arrow and you can select a different broadcast which is, Prime vision and what it does they've added feature since they did it they started it they've added all these new AI features that are really amazing so during a pass play they'll show you the most likely Target they put like a Madden asked Circle in real time under the player and, he'll flash like green or something if he's a possible Target on the defense though they'll show a potential Blitzer. They'll show you fourth-down probabilities in real time you know and it's just amazing they've added tons of features of that since I've been watching it and I find it like really adds a ton to the game too. Kind of see you can see the strategy in real time mostly broadcasters you know they'll talk about it like Tony Rome or something but it's way after the play after they've had time to put together animation this is doing it all in real time it's just mind-blowing the amount of compute it must be thrown at that and you know I think it's a it could change the way you think about sports and in a really interesting way. Jason: [20:49] Oh yeah increasingly it's a better experience watching the game at home then you can get in the stadium. Scot: [20:54] Yeah the stadium doesn't do that. Jason: [20:56] They side note for soccer at the World Cup they actually did but you have to watch the whole game like through a are on your phone. Scot: [21:05] Let's see you at the stadium watching the game on your phone. Jason: [21:09] Yeah I mean and it was cool right like saying same sort of thing like it's overlaying all this real-time stats and probability was amazing. Like it's not a very good experience to like hold your phone up and have your camera on the whole time to sort of get all these stats and so. Yeah yeah side no Thursday Night Football is the bane of my existence because I do play Fantasy Football and I never have my act together to have my lineups all set before Thursday night so, usually the game starts and I have to pray that I don't have any super important players that I fail the start and then I can enjoy the game. Scot: [21:46] Okay understood anything else on Dad's. Jason: [21:53] No I think that covers it pretty well on ads you know just. We've we've talked about a lot on the show but the overwhelming success Amazon's having with ads has this of course trickle-down effect that every other player and commerce paste is trying to figure out how to monetize their their traffic and get their share and at the moment nobody's getting, anything like Amazon's add, Commerce ratio and of course the audience eyes is start dropping off really quick after Amazon right you know you get a lot less eyeballs at Walmart then you have it on Amazon and a lot less eyeballs it Target then you have it Walmart and you know once you get smarter than that it starts getting real fragmented real fast. Scot: [22:39] Yeah how do you were still there still even though that's a big number they're still like way far away from Facebook right so so number one is Google by a really big margin and number two is Facebook and then it's Amazon and they're like way ahead of everyone else but they have to even though they're outpacing them, a little bit it would be like decades before they caught up in my own remembering that right. Jason: [23:00] I'm not no I'm not going to say decades it's an order of magnitude it's like 102 million 100 to 200 billion dollar annual run rates for those other guys and. Scot: [23:13] But they're kind of getting to half right. Jason: [23:15] Yeah yeah they are like they there with like within 50 percent of Striking Distance of number two. Scot: [23:23] Yeah if you had said that to us five years ago we would not have believed it I would I would not have seen how I've been. Jason: [23:30] Yeah I've been playing that what would you have thought five years ago game a lot and you you know you talked about who all the winners are in AI if you said five years ago the AI is going to become a huge thing what company is going to win like you we would have all been on Google. Scot: [23:43] Yeah yeah or apple or it would not have been startup called open air that was nonprofit that flip to profit no one saw that coming including Elon Musk yeah. Jason: [23:55] And by opening I you mean Nvidia but yeah. Scot: [23:59] One tidbit I saw on ads I love the leak read the Wall Street reports and they largely talked about the same data but a lot of them are good at very good at modeling and they can when Amazon doesn't tell them something like they don't break out they break out the revenue for ads but they don't break out the profit so it kind of gets swept up into this larger number but then they give you enough pieces you can kind of back into it so one of my favorite analyst he's a friend of the show Scott Devitt he modeled back through there and to your point he basically said that the ad business has a 60%, EB de margin so net margin of 60 percent which is basically like just money raining at this like Google's business model which I guess makes sense because Bass. Jason: [24:46] Is it is good. Scot: [24:48] Yeah because it is Google's business model and this ties into you know you know more about this government stuff than I do but Google's in a pretty nasty fight with the FTC, or the DJ I can't remember some government Bureau important entity that that is claiming they have a monopoly on search and they're basically pointing over here and saying look at these Amazon guys they're closing in on us pretty quick and they always reference those stats that show you know like more than half the people start product searches and those online. Jason: [25:19] Yeah no it's super interesting I Scott Devin is way better at Financial models than me but I actually think he might be under estimating the profitability and part of it is. It's. There's a lot of room for gray area like if you think about the the Amazon business it's super fascinating you know the number one digital Advertiser in the United States of America is you know who buys more ads than anyone else. Amazon. 18 billion dollars a year of ads they buy just from Google so they buy 18 billion dollars worth of eyeballs from Google they use those eyeballs to sell a bunch of stuff that they make money on and then they sell 50 billion dollars are the pants to those eyeballs. Scot: [26:05] Ticket Arbitrage. Jason: [26:06] It's amazing eyeball Arbitrage and you know it's. So how much of that acquisition cost are you factoring into the profitability of the ad business versus the like I would argue that these are not separated bubble businesses as much as ever wants to talk about ads as a separate business to me it only exists because you have all this traffic for Commerce and it's it's a core part of the the Commerce math at this point but we shall. Scot: [26:39] Yeah when we did our instacart coverage of this one now instacart been public for a while and you look at their numbers they're basically only being the whole instacart business is being valued a zero except for that so they're basically trading like an ad company so all of Wall Street said okay that grocery part is kind of like that yeah is there we'll put it in like you know. [27:02] A hundred million dollars and then the ad business is like worth date hundred million dollar ad businesses where they gave it a really nice multiple of like 5x so that's interesting I'm sure, you're going to spoiler alert you're going to see a lot more ads on Insta guard the yeah a lot of people there is a negative and you know no one ever talks about this but a lot of people and this usually comes from a Amazon sellers and they always have kind of a love hate hate hate hate hate relationship with Amazon you know a lot of them would say and I hear this from consumers that the customer experience is the user experience is degraded on Amazon because there's just so many darn ads now you know the and I see it too if I'm looking for a specific thing I'm kind of like a dad at okay that's what I was looking for at some point there is cannibalization there and you know what we don't know is what did they lose from yeah doing this like was their product they didn't sell because people couldn't find it or we'll never really know that but you know kind of hope they're smart enough to figure that calculus Alden make it a huge net positive versus the cannibalization getting close to the ebitda contribution. Jason: [28:10] Oh yeah no I think two things like there definitely is an impact on customer experience and every retailer that gets into this space has a different philosophy about that and Amazon's appears to be the monetization is just worth it but you know you think about everyone other retailers that are not waiting and quite so hard, are trying to balance that and then the new interesting thing is if you're any retailer other than Amazon where all your eyeballs really are is not on your website it's in your store right and but you go we'll wait a minute, the these disruptions that people might tolerate as digital disruptions on a website they may not top you know nobody wants to junk a fi, um a physical store experience with a bunch of you know make it feel like you walked into Times Square every time you walk into, retail store so there's all this interesting calculus on where everyone should land on that the other interesting thing to me is for a while there was a. [29:13] An opportunity for the best practitioners to get outside return so there was a subset of all those Amazon sellers that were really good at the Amazon ad, execution right and they did their smart about where they put their bids they were smarter about the attributes they put in their ad there are smarter about the creative they made for their ad and they could get outside Returns versus other sellers on Amazon but the first Trends you mentioned the AI affectation of this whole business. [29:43] Has sort of made the best practices, dummy proof right and so now you know you just hand a product shot to Amazon and it makes the ad for you and you turn over the bidding strategy to Amazon and it optimizes your bidding for you and so it's squeezing more of the potential profit like out of all of these these other businesses that are built on top of Amazon because it's, kind of. Normalizing the the ad business to everyone and it just becomes a pure pay to pay like who's going to be the most for this eyeball. Scot: [30:21] Yeah kind of supports your theory that maybe the Madonna's higher because they don't have a lot of people sitting there at adding images or something like would they used to do back in the olden days. Jason: [30:31] Is that you used to need this thing called what is it called Ad Agency. Scot: [30:35] Yeah good cut the if you can just get one of those Bots I discussed or just like you have a some a I do it for him. Jason: [30:40] Yeah yeah that was a funny example a few minutes ago. Scot: [30:44] Unrelated news Jason is brushing up to c v so hit him up the so just to zoom out to the big picture so so we kind of dove into the to topical things A to B Us / Ai and adds, those together really causing Amazon to beat Revenue that they came in about one percent higher than Revenue so it was kind of like a slight beat / meat but where they really exceeded oh and revenue came in at 143 billion were they really crushed it was operating income and these two contributed to it but also retail did some interesting things that also yeah I think dramatically helped beat expectations operating income came in at eleven point two billion and expectations which is Wall Street consensus is what they say was seven point seven billion you know so that's like what let's like. Five per billion beat you know like a huge be compared to whatever. Jason: [31:49] 35%. Scot: [31:51] Yeah so that push the stock up 10% and then also we'll talk about guidance and that was positive so, it's been interesting Amazon stock has been kind of in a you know. Funk for lack of better words has been con rallying around at the same level and literally for quite a while like 18 months and this was the first Catalyst to cause a big move and that it's market cap a 10% move at Amazon Lester look we'll get one of our researchers here one of the interns I look okay. So you know they were like 1.2 trillion and now they're like 1.4 trillion so that's you know a move like that takes a lot of dollars when you're bigger than a trillion dollar business to move things it's like a lot of. A lot of value creation can happen in a 1.2 trillion dollar company when it shoots up ten percent in five trading days. Jason: [32:44] 10% 0 by a lot of rocket fuel. Scot: [32:46] It will yes a lot of dates with helicopter Pilots as well and a lot of cool new clothes, so there were some really interesting things you know we spend the bulk of our time here on the Pod talking about retail and e-commerce to our favorite topics so Jason there's a lot of really interesting stuff going on in there as well you want to fill us in on that. Jason: [33:08] Yeah everyone just wants to talk about ads and AI but it turns out that Amazon is actually a pretty good retailer. And so the the retail business also had a good quarter and to kind of set the table, every every listener the show knows I love my US Department of Commerce data so that came out last week 4. [33:31] September which gives us Q3 data for the industry so us retail data in September this was up one point year-to-date sales in the United States January through September we're at one point nine percent this year versus last year. It's a 35 percent versus before the pandemic in 2019 so 1.9% is not very good growth by historical standards we would normally expect about 4% growth. So if we just look at Q3 growth the industry was up 2% which again half of what you would typically expect. So Amazon's growth for Q3 is 11 percent versus that that industry number of 2% so 11% growth, is very robust the if you kind of, look at Amazon's growth since the pandemic that Q3 number means they're up 85 percent versus Q3 2019 and their year-to-date number is up 111 percent versus 2019. [34:33] So Amazon is a very large retailer arguably number one or number two retailer in the US now, and they're growing way faster than the industry average, and again depending on how you count Walmart would be the number two retailer which is also growing significantly faster than the industry average so that actually, tells you everything you need to know about the rest of the retail industry is that where you know we're having a significant bifurcation and with winners and losers in the space. [35:07] The other side of the retail business for Amazon is international and historically North America has been a very mature Market that has grown and generated profits, International has not made money for Amazon and I would say it was a mixed bag in terms of their International performance, on a constant currency basis International sales were up 11% which it's a smaller less mature business so you'd like to see it growing faster than the, the mature North American Market, um but they're operating loss is way smaller so last year this quarter they lost 2.5 billion dollars this year they only lost a hundred million dollars so nearly break it even for the quarter. Um the this did not come up in their their earnings and no one asked them about this but Marketplace pulse reported earlier this month. That appears Amazon has. Meaningfully curtailed their International expansion and a lot of markets they had announced they were expanding into they seem to have delayed. Postponed or canceled a lot of international market openings, so International definitely is not the start of the show it is also true of a lot of the other markets that say that Amazon's in still have more. [36:26] Just general macroeconomic headwinds than the United States does at the moment a lot of the world has a more severe version of the same macroeconomic problems that we have. In the US so a couple interesting tidbits. [36:44] But in the discussion about the retail business that you know the CFO Bryant. [36:54] Scot I always pronounce his name wrong alsop ski, um brett-brett else got a soft ski talked about how despite the fact that their they had nice growth in retail that they are seeing a cautious consumer who's generally trading down and more Deal seeking, then usual and that's consistent with, cautions that we've heard from other retailers that actually gives me some significant pause for Holiday which we'll talk about later, the the thing that that Amazon was really touting in the retail business is that they dramatically improve their cost to serve, and their speed of delivery in Q3 and that largely was thanks to an initiative they started a couple of quarters ago, this transition from a single National fulfillment Network. To a regional fulfillment Network where they have eight distinct District regions in the United States, that each sort of operate independently in the goal is to have all the the inventory that that Scot Wingo wants to buy, in his region so the goods have to travel less far are less expensive to get to him, and get to him faster and what they announced in the earnings was that the transition to this this. [38:19] Regional model has gone better and exceeded their expectations they're getting more. Incremental profit and faster speed of delivery than they even projected, um out of transitioning to that so this is. [38:37] I know we talked a lot about how big and what a huge moat Amazon would just accept our but I still feel like this is under appreciated by most Amazon's competitors and their there. They're just opening a bigger Gap in speed of service and one of the things they mentioned is that they see a direct correlation between consumable sales and speed of service when they promised that they can get them there faster they sell more paper towels, so I think it's very clear that that consumers want speed of service, and Amazon has a huge advantage and it appears to be getting even bigger so that's interesting another thing I talk about a lot. [39:20] Um is there's a few new retailers that are also stealing significant share, um very quickly and they're primarily Chinese companies so it's she in and most notably Tim oh, and so well like they certainly didn't come up in the Amazon earnings a lot of the analysts started looking at the the, rapid growth that Tim is getting and trying to figure out if they're stealing share from Amazon and evercore did a big consumer survey, and the results of their survey was that Tim ooh is mostly not stealing share from Amazon that most of its shares coming from, other retailers and in many cases coming from brick-and-mortar value retailers in the US so the dollar stores and it appears that that Amazon is more insulated from the. The growth and profit that they're getting so all of that you know rolls up to be a pretty impressive. Quarter I you've talked about it a lot but it kind of feels like Amazon's got a bunch of knobs that they can turn whenever they want to improve profitability and it feels like, they both added more knobs that can turn this quarter and they turn some of them. Scot: [40:37] Yeah the other thing that's really interesting is if you look at. Amazon and you can't really read because they have so many employees in the Fulfillment centers you can't really tell their employee growth and it's surging right now is they prefer prepare for holiday but another really interesting trend is Google meta and there's one of the other ones Microsoft their revenue per employee is surging so they're they're actually not hiring many people right now and, the assumption is these companies are leveraging AI internally and becoming exceedingly efficient and you kind of wonder. Is Amazon doing the same thing I hear inklings we have kids that are not so far out of college they don't know folks looking for jobs and things I hear inklings that Amazon is not really hiring that much as they kind of were at one point so I kind of wonder, are they also hiding behind that that have like a million employees and it surges like 200,000 for holiday so it doesn't look like they're being more productive but what they don't do is put out corporate versus fulfillment center. Have to have an idea that if we looked at corporate there also. [41:48] One dial they've turned its new is I think they're not hiring as me folk because people are getting a lot of efficiencies from these AI. Systems that these companies are dogfooding internally. And because they're they're a little bit further ahead than kind of like what we see out of the lme's I think they're doing some really interesting things that they will productized and we will we will see what they're doing in a lot of it can be this like really focused you know create an ad you know a lot of the stuff that used to be, kind of out sourced or you would have to throw a bunch of bodies at it I think there's LMS doing a lot of that you know customer support Bots think things like that that you know I think there's a lot of efficiencies going on inside of their that's helping these guys really beat their earnings numbers. Jason: [42:38] Yeah I do think that's true it's not lost on me that just as the retailgeek bought is gonna replace me at poobah says all the other places that might have hired me are also not so my fallback is that I may be washing cars at spiffy so we'll see how that. That all plays out but I promise to work hard of it if it comes to that Scott. Scot: [42:58] Absolutely it also we could just turn this podcast into the entire ads so that could be could be here our second asked yeah. Jason: [43:04] We can monetize the podcast I'm not I'm not doing that to the listeners they advertisers would make us make a shorter podcast Scott. Scot: [43:13] Yeah yeah. Jason: [43:14] I'm not down for that I'm not down for it. Even if I have to wash cars the I think you're certainly right like a lot of these companies and Amazon very overtly has has put some more barriers and in place in terms of corporate hires. The one notable exception being the AI space they're hiring pretty rapidly. Um but I also think in addition anything you mentioned that Amazon's actually finally like really leaning into the Fulfillment center automation so while they've always. Been a leader in in having fulfillment center, not all their fulfillment centers in a big chunk of their fulfillment centers were not highly automated and so I think they're now automating all of them and they're rapidly moving to sort of next-gen automation. Um you know where everyone else is kind of putting their first robots and you know moving things around the warehouse more efficiently. Amazon is like rolling out new technology that's a lot more. Seamless in how the people and the automation work together in a in a safe cohesive way so I do think one of the levers Amazon has is. You know to really add more Automation in those in those fulfillment centers and in that cost to serve. Scot: [44:39] Absolutely it's kind of interesting because we started spiffy, which is my on-demand car care company where you're going to come wash cars people are like AI is you know they'll be a robot that can do this in five years I was like I don't know like you know the Boston Dynamics robots are cool but they're not. Let's just programmed well I don't think it's like that you know it's not thinking and who would have guessed that a I would replace you know the digital retail Talking Heads first and and not. Not the physical things I think the physical stuff is going to take a lot longer but who knows once these a eyes you have there's Tesla has that that demonstration of theirs was The Optimist that you know it kind of is learning things as it goes and making inference in real time so that is kind of you know we who knows where all this is going to go. If we back to it now and not science fiction but your term science fiction so. [45:37] Looking forward for fourth quarter they put guidance out that they're going to see growth in the fourth quarter of 7 to 12% the midpoint of that range which let's see would be 9 and change itself was five and a half percent above the consensus midpoint so this is what we would call A Classic. Meet Top Line Crush bottom line on the current quarter and then raised the next quarter both top and bottom line pretty substantially so that you know. This is an important data point when we kind of swirl it together with your Department of Commerce data it does seem like Amazon signaling they're feeling pretty good about the fourth quarter and everyone felt like this was kind of conservative given I didn't put the bottom line number but they felt like that was pretty conservative given what they just did and you know they felt like dad a lot of room to kind of beat that number and maybe it's going to be more like 14 15 percent growth which would be you have a new post covid reversion hi I guess you would look at it where do you did you leave this feeling more optimistic about Q4 or we are your classic Jason curmudgeon myself. Jason: [46:54] Yeah no I think I'm mostly curmudgeon e not for Amazon I actually I think their guidance seems realistic to me. [47:06] On the top line I think the bottom line is just totally up to their whims like if they want to blow away the bottom line they can if they want to invest at all in you know new. [47:18] New AI capabilities and and keep the bottom line constrain they can do that too but the that, Top Line I think they're likely to hit their guidance and again you know one or two other big retailers might you know have a pretty robust holiday as well but I actually think that that sucks all the, the potential growth out of the market for holiday and so I actually think. That sort of signifies potentially Bleak holiday season for a lot of other traditional retailers so I guess it's a. Little bifurcated it's good news for Amazon will see what a Walmart's Q3 earnings look like they announced on November 16th, but I do feel like endemic lie Amazon and Walmart have some, some inherent advantages that are insulating them from some of the economic headwinds and I think that that really just makes things, that much more difficult for the the rest of retail and so I desperately want to be wrong but I think it's going to be, I kind of disappointing holiday for a bunch of folks there also was sort of some if you really listen to the Q&A portion of the investor call, there. [48:45] The the CFO in particular had some concerns about capacity around Q4 and one of the things he called that was carrier capacity which is interesting because Amazon does so much. Of their own fulfillment now that they're just way less dependent on third-party carriers but if he's worried about carrier capacity for Q4 you can bet that means that every other retailer ought to be really concerned, about carrier capacity for cube Q4, and so we you know we feel like we talked about that every holiday season but Amazon's got a lot of. New fulfillment center capacity that's coming online in Q3 of this year and will even in Q4 and so I guess. If there's one thing that could glitch it Amazon if there's not enough delivery capacity if some of these new fulfillment centers have any, any sort of glitches or delays and coming online that you know that that could be the constraining factor for their Q4 growth. Scot: [49:50] There's so sprinkle of curmudgeon e speaking of holiday where can listeners go if they want to get the best holiday news even though we haven't been potting as much as we want to because our day jobs have been absorbing a fair amount of time this year we are going to have some killer content around this holiday and kicking it off we have our very own jacent live not an AI and you're going to do a little webinar for Commerce next what's that all about and when is it. Jason: [50:22] Yeah yeah so on Monday November 6 which I think is a week from now if I'm not mistaken we're doing a Commerce next webinar where we'll sort of preview the holiday season so you heard the very early preview just now but we'll go into more detail share some of the third-party forecast for Holiday Good News, all the other predictors are much more optimistic than I am so so we'll hit that on November 6 and then of course there will be all the good real time holiday news that will be will be hitting pretty hot and heavy here on the podcast so we'll we'll have some of the best data sources, right before and after the holiday to kind of talk about where things are going and what actually. [51:15] And with that I think it is happen again we've used up all our allotted time as always if this deep dive in Amazon's earnings was valuable for you the way you can repay that value is to jump on iTunes and give us that five-star review. Scot: [51:31] Thanks everyone and Jason until next time. Jason: [51:34] Happy conversing.

EP311 - Video Commerce with Qurate's Brian Beitler Brian Beitler is the Founder and General Manager of Live Shop Ventures, a video commerce initiative within the Qurate Retail Group, which is the parent company of HSN and QVC. Brian has also served as the CMO of Qurate Retail Group, in addition to many other interesting marketing roles in the retail world. We met Brian at Etail Boston and arranged this interview. We cover video commerce, differences in adoption between Western and Eastern Markets. The role of livestreaming, and the benefits of being a "commerce platform with video" vs. "a video platform with commerce." We also explore the origin on Live ShopVentures, it's first video marketplace on a mobile app, Sune, and the benefits on incubating a start-up within an established company. Don't forget to like our facebook page, and if you enjoyed this episode please write us a review on itunes. Episode 311 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded on Thursday, August 31th. http://jasonandscot.com Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of GetSpiffy and Co-Founder of ChannelAdvisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing. Transcript Jason: [0:23] Welcome to the Jason and Scot show this is episode 311 being recorded on Thursday August 31st 2023 I'm your host Jason retailgeek Goldberg and as usual I'm here with your co-host Scot Wingo. Scot: [0:39] Hey Jason and welcome back Jason and Scot show listeners Jason as you know one of the most common questions we get from our huge listing audience is about live streaming with e-commerce is it a big deal why is it seem to be growing faster in the East versus the west and how important is it to live live streaming so we thought we'd get a expert on the show as a guest that could help unpack that for us all and you better than someone who's LED marketing for numerous historic Brands and served as the CMO for the mother of all video shopping sites QVC / HSN and so that's exactly who we found, we're excited to welcome to the show Brian beitler he is the founder of mobile V Commerce app called soon and the general manager of live shop venters both part of the Keurig group. And I'm not sure Jason but that's a lot of words in the title but I think it's maybe half of the words in your title but welcome to the show Brian we're excited to have you. Brian: [1:36] Grateful to be here and I'll work on trying to lengthen the title so I can keep up with Jason. Jason: [1:41] Set your set your goals higher Brian. Brian: [1:43] Thank you for having me. Jason: [1:48] Brian we are thrilled to have you and as our listeners will quickly figure out and we are eager to jump into all this video Commerce stuff but before we do we always like to give the listeners a little bit of perspective about our guests background and where they're coming from and in your case it's a super impressive retail / consumer background so can you can you give us the version that your mom would share with her friends in the elevator. Brian: [2:15] Happy to do so so I'll back up a decade or two but I started well where I consider I started my career was at Mattel that huge toy conglomerate in fact they're very popular right now coming off of a I think a major hit movie. It's doing very well. Yes I think so has the rest of the world at this point but I started my career there and fell in love with the toy industry and thought that's where I would really spend. My entire career when I left Mattel. In the early 2000s I at the time was leading the core part of the Hot Wheels brand a dream job as a father and a former young boy. [2:56] But I thought I would give myself a taste of retail in the toy industry so I actually left metallic thought I would spend a couple of years on the retail side working with it. A brand I knew we all knew and loved at some point in our childhood called Toys R Us and truthfully I the reason I'm here today is I fell in love with retail there, and what was different for me about retail versus consumer packaged Goods was just the speed of retail it felt like it moved at light speed compared to kind of course EPG brand management, and you know I often tell the story you know working in those days to change you know the package on a five car pack took a couple of years to get it to Market and. I joined Toys R Us and we had this idea to launch a birthday club and. At the time I went to the CEO of the company John I learned and it was how quickly could you get it in Market could you do it in a couple of months. And that and I was often running and in love with retail and so spent a couple of years there and then just continued to be given these remarkable opportunities to work with, really amazing Brands and helping them reshape their narratives with their consumers or and or finding new Pathways new emerging ways, I could grow I was you know there at Bath and Body Works when we launched e-commerce we redesigned the site as a marketing site decided oh we might be able to sell something. Through here and that's been my journey so from from Bath and Body Works to Kohl's department store. [4:24] Then my hand in the bridal industry and private Equity with David's Bridal and then women's apparel and you know fast forward. A few few years and here I am at curate Retail Group. Working in what I think is an exciting future for digital Commerce. [4:42] All of those roles you know usually leading the marketing you know the marketing or e-commerce function for those various Brands and learning a lot making a lot of mistakes a lot of mistakes I'm getting a few things right every now and then, and you know kind of Landing in a pretty exciting place here at grea where we think we're going to do something you know again interesting a new in the digital space. Jason: [5:04] Yeah and a couple of fun facts brand you've LED marketing for for a bunch of those Brands you just mentioned and while you were doing that I was nominally helpful in building a bunch of the the backend e-commerce functionality for those same Brands and so I think without knowing it you've hated me your entire life for all the the features you wanted and didn't get or the the the pace of evolution so I just wanted to apologize publicly for all of that. Brian: [5:34] I appreciate that. Jason: [5:35] But one of the things I particularly love about your career is is I have this theory that, you know though all of retailers has been profoundly disrupted by digital but not all at the same time and so there were there are industries that are disrupted a long time ago and there's you know if you're a grocer or a car dealer you're probably getting disrupted you know right now and I feel like you serendipitously or maybe intentionally have have been in a bunch of Industries. Right at the peak of their disruption so your Toys R Us when when shopping online became a thing and then urine Beauty when that became a thing and then you are you are in the the the heat of the the apparel Wars online and now you're you're squarely in the v Commerce space and it's you know one of the things we talked about the most on the show so whether you did that on purpose or not congratulations on on surfing that digital disruption wave. Brian: [6:32] No I appreciate that I think much much of it was serendipitous I would say that the pieces that probably weren't was my desire to always work for, brands that were leaders in their respective category or industry and as I look back and reflect that's probably one of the things that has been the most rewarding and probably given me the best. Growth is being able to work with you know brands that were at the Forefront Mattel at the time was the leader in in toy manufacturing still still are. Toys R Us at the time was the leader in toy retail Bath & Body Works was the largest kind of. Bath & Body brand at the time Cole's was it was a chaser of you know kind of the discount Department space and ran past JCPenney's and Sears and its competitors and so that for me has been exciting because you know I think being with those who build powerful platforms, let you learn from the best and you know here I said today with curate retailgeek which owns QVC and HSN. You know the largest livestream platform on the globe by far the industry, leader having changed the landscape of how you could use television to shop you know some 35 years ago and continued it for nearly four decades now so that part of trying to work with brands that, I felt were really leaders in their space because I thought it would be a great place for me to learn has certainly been intentional and then this digital Crossroad just happened to kind of line up and almost all of those places at the time I was there. Jason: [7:56] That is awesome and today I sort of perceive you you are on the Leading Edge of the curate retailgeek Roop with your current responsibilities and I definitely want to talk about those but if I have the story right before you took on your current role you also had broader marketing responsibilities for the core QVC HSN Brands is that. Brian: [8:19] I did I did that's that's right I joined you know curate retailgeek rupe. And 20/20 is the chief marketing officer for QVC and HSN are two largest video Commerce businesses, at the time and you know fast forward we obviously are in the midst of those businesses are in their own form of transformation and disruption right for. In some ways you know you talk about a Crossroads, ask for businesses you know having come through retail when e-commerce was exploding and and Retail foot traffic was being affected as people. Spent more time online and less time in stores if you look at where accurate retailgeek Roop you know is today right streaming has remade the way we View television and so we've had to remake our business, there as well primary our audience used to be almost entirely on. [9:07] You know on cable or we reach over 100 million households in the US we used to reach all of those almost on cable and over the last several years is as people have migrated from cable to streaming services we've migrated our business we still reach 100 million households, but today we reach many of those through streaming services because they don't have cable subscriptions any longer and so, you know joining another business who was in the midst of transformation again was was somewhat serendipitous I was excited about the future video and video Commerce had use that, extensively at kind of my two preceding roles and so part of the excitement of joining curate was joining someone who is at The Cutting Edge of this but to your point that's been migrating, and then as we look at the future we said Gee what places do we really own, from an e-commerce perspective and we own the 10 foot screen the screen that you see in front of you from a living room perspective. [9:58] We do really well on the laptop you know the desktop for for e-commerce shopping like most traditional e-commerce retailers but as we thought about the small screen that wasn't a place where we had really built, for the future yet we thought were really well positioned we could certainly see what was happening in in Asia and the explosion of Live And mobile driven Commerce. And realize that that was going to happen here in the west as well. And felt like we were in a position to innovate around that but we needed to put some real Focus around that so you know about a year ago I stepped out of my role as Chief marketing officer of QVC nhsn, to build live shop Ventures and ultimately to launch the soon platform that we're going to talk about today. Jason: [10:42] Amazing and and I for sure I'm going to get into that but I did think you could help us clear up a few just basic questions about the industry first a I now have some some Envy because your TV is 10 feet at home I'm kind of jealous but the. You you call that V Commerce and I'm just curious like I hear all these different phrases all the time I hear people kind of talk about live streaming when they they don't necessarily mean live and video like is there a preferred label that you guys like to kind of describe this, this industry. Brian: [11:18] For sure we love the V e-commerce label in fact we think V Commerce will be the new e-commerce and what we mean by that largely is that, more and more consumers shopping experiences will be driven by video in fact if you look at today's youngest consumer right gen Z or the Next Generation Rising almost all of their Discovery happens in a video experience. If you think about it and it could come from one of the well-known video players right who's in this space Instagram which has become largely video Tick-Tock who obviously has led the way there YouTube. All of these places if I think about and I have so fun fact I have six kids, the youngest is squarely gen Z 12 years old the oldest is Millennial 29 years old and I watched their journey and most of their Discovery right the new trip they're going to take. The next meal they're going to make the next product they're going to buy the next television show they're going to watch is all coming through their video feed. Yet in the e-commerce space we're still largely dependent upon static images and or in the physical space on boxes and shelf talkers and that's just not the way that the rising generation discovers. Anything new. Scot: [12:34] Yep ingredient it's interesting you have a built-in test bed is that was that part of your strategy. Brian: [12:40] I think that that if. Scot: [12:42] We need more kids I need to get another generation. Brian: [12:44] If you went back in math my career I did a pretty good job landing at the right Brands and price basis for my for my kids ages the only one they might say I got wrong was the bridal industry I was a bit premature on the bridal industry, but but you know as I look back so we do we talk a lot about be Commerce and that for us means live it also means pre-recorded, right it can mean you know things that are that are behind the scenes it's anything that really leverages video to help tell the product and Brand Story to a consumer in a way that helps them make better decisions and get to yes faster. That's where we see the Innovation going that's where we see all brands needing to play we think it will look different in the west than it looks in the east. And that's because different consumers and different markets and different level of kind of retail development but we think it'll be globally relevant over the course of the next you know five to ten years. Scot: [13:37] Brickell as the entrepreneur host on the program Jason's a big company guy he's a you can tell by his title. He's corporate drone and he doesn't know who he works for half the time over there there's like he's like I think I have a boss but I don't know I don't know who approves my expense report Seymour, that's how big is a company and you know one of my favorite books is the innovators dilemma where and I'm sure you're familiar with it where you know most companies like tear you they were super Innovative and really did a ton in the category and you know a lot of them don't make it it's interesting to me that you're now working for a company that you know obviously. Is working to not get caught in that in most companies don't kind of sounds like and I may be reading too much in this you you either put your hand up and said I want to do this or they said we need someone to incubate this and you volunteered I'd love to hear the story of how your kind of like starting this company inside of a bigger company that that's interact to excuse you know the extent you can share our what you want to do that that's always interesting to hear because a lot of a lot of big companies don't do that. Brian: [14:39] No I appreciate that you know we feel, you know we I feel honored to kind of be in an organization and part of a company that's trying to lead that way Forbes just named, secure it retail one of the you know the country's top three hundred Innovative companies right so we're recognized for having thought about this space and we've innovated over the course of the last, 35 plus years if you were to look at what QVC nhsn looked like 30 years ago they look very different than what you see today both in the way that we reach interact with customers and so you know the story here you know I'll keep it relatively 34 for time sake but we were looking at you know the future of curate and looking for where we think, you know girls could come from I was obviously looking at that in my core role as Chief marketing officer I let our you know our insights and analytics team and we were looking at the consumer and we're looking at the businesses and the ages of and cohorts of consumers where we did really well and where we felt like, there was opportunity for us and one of those that was clear was we had an opportunity with the younger consumer and unlike many many brands that will often make the decision to go how do we stretch our brand younger it's one of the hardest things to do our view was to say. [15:49] We have a core customer we love our QVC and HSN customers 50-plus their affluent they have disposable income they love to engage with us and Us in this way as we think there is, potential for growth with still the 50-plus customer we have plenty of, consumers who can discover our experience who aren't you a shopping there and we think can fall in love with it but we did recognize hey there's a there's a rising generation that's that's embedded and videos embedded in the way that they operate, why aren't we doing anything there so I did raise my hand and talked a lot about you know that consumer and about the power of video and our expertise and, you know that with. David Robinson who was a new CEO Who had who had joined us in you know late 21 had a knife or for growth and an eye for the digital landscape and. You know started he started to think about where our future would would would lead and he knocked on my door. [16:45] Early and 22 and and we started to talk about what the future could be and how we might do that and decided he decided to establish the e-commerce Ventures is a new unit inside the organization and I join that team to help, you know lead a component of our Innovative future and so it does take having. A CEO that's got a mind for Innovation and you know the ability to say we're going to make the investment necessary to do that so. You know this isn't one of those I feel you know grateful for the fact that I get to work in this call it an intrapreneur setting. We're not chasing you no seed series a series B series C where we're going as a company we believe that we need to invest in the future and this is one of the ways that we can do that. Scot: [17:29] Yeah that's neat that you still sounds like you get the flavor of kind of a start-up within a big company but you can use infinite resources you guys have. Brian: [17:37] Yeah and that we think gives us an advantage and that that's true I we operate we don't have an operation in New York I soon is based in New York right are. QVC is based in West Chester Pennsylvania HSN is based in st. Petersburg Florida. Right so you know we set this up in a new location so that we could operate as an independent and entrepreneurial company but knowing that you know. Just an hour train ride away I've got hands and resources and folks that can kind of help us get through some of the tougher things of getting something off the ground. Scot: [18:09] Yeah exactly now do you have a pretty wide aperture what you could do so you could you say hey we want to just try something real fast on Tick-Tock or is your mandate it kind of needs to run through one of the mother ships or tap into. Brian: [18:24] No not at all. Scot: [18:25] The mothership or something. Brian: [18:26] No we have a very a very wide mandate most of the team comes from Industries outside of kind of are. Our CORE family fact most of the town I've hired has not been former or current QVC or HSN employees they have been, you know team and talent here based in New York City most of them which is where we found the talent pool that, looking forward to kind of build this future and we have a pretty wide aperture to test and try and that's we say we've been up for for several months now we're still we largely consider this the beta version because we are, finding the things that we think will be the best fit for the market and create the best experience for both consumers for Brands and ultimately for creators because we do the reason we refer to this as a platform is, we don't see this as just a one-dimensional or two-dimensional relationship you know brand to Consumer retailer to consumer, but we're also trying to build a place where creators can build a livelihood as well where Brands can create their own content to connect with consumers and where we've built kind of a new way for consumers, the kind of interact and discover new brands. Jason: [19:32] That is awesome and so it sounds like the soon mobile app is kind of the first public release from live shot Ventures am I thinking about that right. Brian: [19:42] Yeah it's the soonest kind of our first public facing you know component of the platform we have components that are that will face Brands and that will face creators to help round out this ecosystem that we think. We'll create a new way for you know these different constituencies to meet one another in a pretty exciting and interesting. Interesting way and they'll be more to share I'm not going to share a ton about those back-end Solutions at this point but there will be more to share in the future as we as we continue to round out the experience, we think it takes to really make this kind of new be Commerce mobile experience. Jason: [20:22] Awesome so maybe you can help it like paint us a picture like what is the unique value prop of soon like is it live is if e-commerce like is there a particular category focuses on or what's the. Brian: [20:35] Yeah to know it's appreciate you asking so look at the core of what we're trying to do is take the the style of video that is loved by a young consumer set column you know. Gen Z too early young Millennials we can't digitally native consumers what we mean by that that's a buzzword everybody said but we simply mean people that seem to have been born with an iPhone implanted in their hand, or some sort of device and if you go back up to 2007 when the iPhone and these devices launched we're looking at people to kind of get there. Hit their teens or younger in that view I look at you know the way that they navigate and that's kind of our core audience because they've grown up with this fat. Device being their primary form of discovering the world so that's our Target so our goal was to build. [21:23] An experience that would make sense to that to that audience so would be short would be fast could would be personalized. I would include the kinds of voices that they're used to hearing from that they trust and that they find credible. Would give Brands a place that are searching to find a pathway that are working so hard to build there. Their products but are can get caught in the jungle that are the very very large marketplaces would give these younger Brands these Innovative brands of place to meet the consumer and to be discovered and to be seen and to have their whole story told. You know it's one thing to just become a product listing on a. On a massive platform like Amazon or Walmart it's another to be able to have someone who understands the consumer tell your brand story so the value prop is to really build what we think is this entertaining. [22:13] Joyful serendipitous shopping moments where you can just discover Brands when you're when you're on the go we think. In some ways part of what. So wonderful about the e-commerce experience is also what's so difficult about the shopping experience and what I mean by that is e-commerce made it easier than ever to buy something. It also made it very difficult to just go shopping and if you think about the experience we used to love as teenagers by the way that gen Z teenager still allowed which is the notion of wandering a physical location a mall or a Target or pick your brand or. You know any of those physical experiences where you can just wander and things just inspire you and you you may have gone into by something you may have had an idea in mind you may have not had an idea in mind. But it was fun and it was a Pastime and it was, enjoyable just to go shopping digital Works differently digital is great if you know I need I need luggage for my trip to Europe I'm getting a backpack I'm going to take a three months and traveling through Europe. [23:18] You can go to the internet and I'll help you find the best backpack in the most array of choices at the price but if you just. Want to sit back and shop and so our goal was to build a platform where the Serendipity of shopping could come up again you could just thumb if you're standing in line at the. At the Starbucks or if you're standing in line at the store you're standing on the platform in the subway station, or you're sitting in class and you're done listening to the professor and you just want to see what might be in your feed that's relevant to you this could be as fun as opening Tick-Tock or opening Instagram. This would be opening shopping for the joy of. Jason: [23:52] I love that there's a this entrepreneur Julie rain Wainwright who founded real real and I don't know if she actually said this but she's always attributed with his quote the internet solve buying but broke shopping it's I. Brian: [24:06] It's a great quote I've heard I've heard that quote I'm not sure if it's hers or not either but I fully subscribe to and that's and that's the reality and so this is a way to bring it back in a way that we think is relevant to you know this. Young emerging audience who's up who's about to have a lot of spending power. Jason: [24:26] Yeah now I'm curious you've talked about this as a platform and it sounds like it's what I would think of as a sort of two-sided market place that you both have to you know recruit and keep happy a bunch of world-class creators that are creating content and you've got to recruit and keep happy in audience that consumes that content and buys stuff that shows up in the content and my am I thinking about it right in terms of it being a two-sided marketing challenge. Brian: [24:54] Yeah I think I think we've called three-sided because we think he have to keep the consumer happy you have to keep the brands and their Founders happy and then you have to, you know create something unique and special for creators who may or may not work directly for the brand that they're going to create content for, and so our thought process is thinking about all three of those audiences as we build and it's why you know we don't see this as a, you know as a Sprint but is building something that we think will be lasting because we're trying to build something that's going to be relevant and meaningful to all three of those participants in the platform. Will you operate as a marketplace right so we're not buying retail we're not buying inventory in the traditional sense right we're building the destination we're working to drive consumers to the destination we're working to source and find great creative talent that we think can build the right kind of content and then we're looking, and reaching out into the. You know into the Reit into the brand landscape to find Brands and products that we think would do well with this with this audience and so we got all three of those things kind of. You know working at once if that's not easy but sometimes the most rewarding things are difficult. Scot: [26:04] Yeah absolutely the marketplaces are hard because you're kind of building to businesses at once you get kind of the consumer and thus the demand and the supply side it can be. But once the network effects it going it's a great business but sometimes it's hard to kind of kick start them do you feel like you guys are at kind of like that product Market fit or you're still kind of. Experimenting and figuring out or like. Brian: [26:25] Yeah we think you know what we're excited about today is the engagement from the number of brands that have come on our platform has gone much faster than we expected. The consumer You Know download and engagement we're in that that nice stair-step each month each week of downloads, increasing on the platform so we feel that we're moving very strongly towards that you know that market fit place but that's why we say we're in beta right well when we're, one more there will declare that were there and we'll change the even the way that we go to market even more aggressively but we're excited about the early signs both the excitement from creators excitement from from Brands who come on board, and again the excitement from the early consumers who have engaged with us the early adopters and starting to experience the platform and so all of those things right now are very positive and. Giving us a lot of optimism as we think about the future. Scot: [27:25] There's wear it sometimes, great to be in a big organization when you're ready you can say hey we need a little distribution and suddenly you know you can you can turn that funnel on you got to be going to make sure you're ready for it and it sounds like you probably haven't you know you should definitely get out of beta for you do that but then even you know even you know how do you do the shoots the right way and you know, inside the work there's tons of just knowledge around streaming and video quality and I'm sure there's some interesting craters that overlap that would be fun to tap into it even brands that you know I'm sure if you were looking for a brand it's much easier being part of the larger or more brands are going to take your call versus you know Joe's startup LLC. Brian: [28:11] Yeah yeah I would say one of our I think that's well that's well well said one of our advantages right is the reality that for you know, for decades we've been helping small Brands become household names become very large businesses because we understand the power of live we understand the power of video and using it to help. [28:30] You know a Founder commercialize their their story and help it reach and reach an audience and so. For sure that is valuable as we talked to Brands who go hey this isn't you know this isn't just somebody out of there, out of the corner of their garage going hey we've got an idea for the future of video shopping this is you know the the leader in video and live shopping who said hey we're going to build a new platform a new experience for a new audience and, we're going to bring our expertise to video shopping to that to that platform and we're going to help you learn how to do it as a brand we're going to help you learn how to do it as a Creator both of those things have been very important, add helping us you know get to yes as we don't get a lot of NOS as we have conversations with Brands right now we get a lot of people excited, even in this early Journey even recognizing that we're in the beta phase because they believe in the business where you know we're over 300 Brands already interested in on the platform, at this stage and you know we're early on we launched in March. And so it's not been hard to get people excited about the potential here and I think part of that is because they can look to the parent of who's building this, and who's making the investment. Scot: [29:46] Yeah very cool would you say so that made me I'm a huge shark tank junkie and I always love when Laurie's on there because she always has that trump card of like, I can probably get you on HSN and everyone's like who so she could tend to get a good deal so then it made me think are you dealing with Challenger Brands kind of like you know things we people maybe haven't heard of or is this kind of like you know Kate Spade or whoever I don't want to go into details but like more long-term brands that are just kind of looking for a fresh new channel is there. Resonating. Brian: [30:22] Yeah so we have a lot of what we call emerging Brands and we can define those in a couple of ways right so there you know I'm an emerging, might have been around for 10 years or 15 years but they're just very tightly, geographically located maybe they just had a couple of stores and a little direct consumer website but they weren't really propagating their brand through there, back in the emerging and we have several brands that look like that we also have Brands there. Relatively young this could be year 1 year 2 year 3 right and they started as a direct consumer brand and they're looking for other points of distribution and other places to be able to tell their story. [30:58] But we've not preclude ourselves from from other brands that are better known and more, National in nature because again at the end of the day you know where our Focus has been, I'm in the early days is and it's because this is this is an area that works really well and video right or proper products that are problem solution oriented products and, Kelly's are great Brands who innovate and develop some new products that solve a consumer problem those do really well in video right now and if you think about, all the you know Tik Tok made me buy it friends you know so many of those products are built around the idea of hey we've got a new solution, a problem that you have or we've got a new take on solving a problem that has been solved a bunch of other ways but never quite solved this way those are the kinds of products and brands that do really well and we find those both in this emerging space and we also find. You'll also find it in some more established brands. But the focus has really been can we bring consumers content that's interesting to watch because what the product does for a consumer is. Have itself useful and highly valuable and that's if you spend some time on the app you'll see a lot of products, better focused in that in that regard and so you know we've not been exclusionary and by any stretch of the imagination but we do have a lot of young and fun emerging brands with some amazing Founders and some amazing founder stories behind them on plan. Jason: [32:23] That is awesome and Brian a fun fact about Scott like most people watch CNBC for Shark Tank and then they accidentally stay on for for Jim Cramer Scott's the one guy that watches CNBC for Jim Cramer and then accidentally. Brian: [32:37] Technics days I'm free. Scot: [32:38] I watched a shark fresh shark tanks on ABC come on. Jason: [32:41] Yeah. Fair enough Earth but inside not I keep telling Scott Scott keep saying hey we need to get on On Cue be on Shark Tank to get into QVC and I keep telling him that curate retailgeek has great merchants and if you have awesome product you can get in regardless of what whether you know a shark or not. Brian: [33:00] And that you know what that's so true Jason that in the reality is is that again if you have a great product curate wants to hear from you and that's and that's the truth and you know we understand what works well for our audience and we understand what works really well. For the video platform and if you bring it you can find your way there I will tell you we get a lot of submissions and for obvious reasons. But yeah you absolutely could find your way there without getting on Shark Tank although a little bit of notoriety never hurts. Jason: [33:30] Know for sure so I'm curious about a tactical element of soon it seems like you made a conscious decision to natively be a nap and and on the one hand. Like man you look at all the data and mobile apps are where it's at like that the overwhelming majority of all minutes spent on mobile devices are an app's you know the top apps have the best engagement and all this stuff but the flip side is, it's a brutally competitive space and it's like really hard to get people to download the app and then it's really hard to get them to to reuse it like I'm curious did you guys. Like debate about a mobile web experience versus an app and and decide that that's where you needed to be or how is that played out for you. Brian: [34:15] Yeah so we absolutely did they say it was probably one of the one of the bigger conversations right as we thought about our future and our Direction working with my team and and. Our partners to think about hey what's the best way to go forward and build a new shopping you know destination and we certainly researched all the hurdles. As well but we saw all the things that you highlighted in the beginning right the notion that, more time is spent on apps particularly from from the target audience we were going after the engagement is much higher the commitment once you have it as much stronger all of those elements that. This is going to be a heavier lift but it's going to be the right lift for us and. And we have to be committed we know it's going to take time but this is going to be the right lift because inside that app also it just gives you the flexibility to do and create some experiential things that just aren't as as. [35:12] They're just not as intuitive or as functional as they are in a mobile web app. Right so you know I'll give you I'll give you one of the features that we love that's just really hard to do in mobile web but amazing an app so you know part of our vision was to be able to create this window, shopping experience again right to bring the joy back to shopping we're literally as you thumb through things consider each one of those swipes the window, write as if you were walking down your favorite shopping destination and you know there's an amazing product with an amazing Storyteller so instead of being on a mannequin in a fixed window it's by a voice that, you know has some credibility and authority and as they tell you about that but what if you want to see more from that brand well you just swipe left. And you're into that brand store. Or what if you want to love what if you love this soon said what if you love this Creator we call them soon satyrs that's telling you the product and you want to do you want to see more will you just you know tap the screen and up comes all the video content that that person is created, doing that in a mobile app mobile apps just don't have the same kind of tactical functionality that you can build inside of an app I'll be realized, part of this if we were going to build a new experience we needed. [36:22] The flexibility in the capabilities to be able to use everything the mobile device gives to you you know ultimately we don't have haptics in our experience yet we will you know they're all those things that are that are native to the app experience that you know. Is opened up an iPhone and ultimately Android which are not on yet but will be in the future. That we wanted to be able to have access to to give it the richest experience even knowing we'd have some hurdles and getting apps downloaded keeping them on the device and getting people back to him. Jason: [36:52] I got it that totally makes sense another one that comes up a lot in a specially you mentioned it seems like adoptions a little earlier in China so I watched the Chinese Behavior a lot to sort of see a bit it predicts how things will evolve here and it's interesting there are amazing social platforms that had huge engagement that are all pivoting to become shopping platforms right so that's by dance that's we and then there are amazing Commerce platforms like Ali Baba and Team all that are kind of pivoting to become engagement platforms and so that's why you know ding dong live and Ali Baba live and all of these these things like I'm kind of curious do you have a position like in the long run what wins right being a a platform that has a lot of video engagement and adding Commerce to it which in the u.s. I guess that could be. Tick tock on Instagram or is it a platform that really is good at Commerce and adds adds the video engagement and so you know maybe that's that's obviously but Amazon or Walmart and then I assume like The Perfect combo of both of those is of course you guys. Brian: [38:00] Yeah so I'm not trying to sidestep but here's what I'll say, video wins video ends and I'll come back to it and here's a here's why I say that so do I think you know Tick-Tock and Instagram and all those who are building you know shopping experiences into their platform, have an opportunity to win and do conversate for sure do in fact I'll give you an example I often share. With you know Brands and others as I'm eating and it's a very simple question for both you Jason and Scott have you ever bought anything while you were in an airport. From a retailer awesome have you ever gone to the airport have you ever gone to the airport to go shopping. [38:36] Right so the reality is that airports have a purpose right which is they help you get from one place to another and it's a very valuable part of your life experience. But what airports learned is have had a lot of people in my space I'll bet if I put some stores in here for you those people will buy something that is for sure going to be true with these social platforms they have a lot of people in their space. [38:59] If they create opportunities for people to buy people will buy but the purpose for opening Tik-Tok is not to go shopping, and people are finding Pathways there because that's like that's a place where I'm at and I'm learning their shopping there so now I can do this so I know if I'm Atlanta I like Ferragamo I know in the Atlanta airport there's a Ferragamo so I can find my way there. As a as a consumer and make it a point to go there when I'm in airports where I know the brands that I like are at, but that's very different than then going to your favorite neighborhood street or going to your favorite you know mall to go to go shopping and so we think those places exist on the other side you have right you have what's happened in the physical space that's taking place in the digital space right so malls have tried to figure out hey shopping isn't enough to get people here I need restaurants and entertain I need other things that are engaging, and team on everybody else is going to go down that pathway as well and go hey, if I want to keep people here I need I need things that are engaging because consumers are expecting more well-rounded experiences from all the places that they go and so our viewers to say listen if you know let's just build something, that recognizes that that's what the consumer needs and wants and create a place we're going shopping and being engaged and being entertained is, in and of itself the point the experience and we believe there will be space for that for an experience like that but I think I think Commerce is going to happen. [40:25] In all of these spaces if you bring video to them I think it's going to happen on on you know brand own websites as they bring video that's the that's the core of it, and again if you step back and go well gee how much space is there you know retail such a fixed base well that's what we all said. You know 20 years ago when e-commerce showed up like e-commerce can't grow the retail space there's a fixed space it's going to be you know give some take some. At the end of the day retail is just larger as as the platforms and places, have continued to evolve and to explode if you think about the difference between where we are and you know where Asia is and where we see the Western markets I think part of this is understanding that I think Asia is unique in that there. Retail ecosystem you know take China it's just very different. From Mars when you consider the scale their population and how much of that is urbanized versus still you know in more agrarian spaces and so it's not exactly the bear to make the comparison between. [41:25] Those two spaces and you know they have different tastes and different preferences and so I think for us in the u.s. I think part of the difficulty has been we've been trying to apply. A formula from Asia to Western markets versus saying hey what's the formula that's right for Western markets and video. And let's let's take stock of understanding what the Retail Landscape looks like here what the consumer behavior and preference for shopping looks like here and then how do you build something that's around that I think brands are starting to figure that out I think we're, you know we're just at the corner we're probably today where e-commerce was in 2001-2002, right so we're on the verge of exploding but if you remember back in those days there were a lot of brands that we're saying yeah we're not going to need any Commerce site. And and then five years later everybody in the country headed e-commerce site. Scot: [42:17] Yeah that first of all you should have qualified your question I'm pretty sure Jason is gone to airports just to go to the Starbucks. That much of a Starbucks not or are you just like is muscle memory for him he's like I want to Starbucks he just ends up at O'Hare and he's like oh oh I don't have a flight but man this this latte is delicious. The so I started a company Channel advisor andqvc was an early customer of ours and I got to go on that behind the scenes tour where you can watch the production room and it blew my mind as an e-commerce person because it was like this pure intersection of data meet Stevie because you know the talent on are would have a may be mic'd up, and the producers say when you talked about you know how the vest feels they watch this I think it was like orders per second some velocity. And they would tell him to talk more about that and if a product didn't make a certain velocity there like next so it's really so I'm kind of thinking you know can you guys because you're you've got both sides of the marketplace are you giving your creators some really interesting kind of youqvc any HSN informed data on on you know. How how to make a better video and sell more product and that kind of thing or you may be too early in your journey but it seems like you guys Doug be like right in your strike zone. Brian: [43:40] No that's the you know that's part of the secret sauce that's why we're so excited about this space it's taking that learning and absolutely the analytics right that we're putting in place and ultimately the. That algorithms that will drive right the personalization feed and the coaching that's given not just to creators but then ultimately to Brands is all built around enabling their ability to be as effective as possible at producing a video and what works depending on the category so. That's core to what we are doing at Stone is using data to drive decisions around content to drive decisions around. The speeds that ultimately will be will be you know shared with consumers right to create as much likelihood or much potential for success as possible and you know you you hit on the head Scott right part of this and part of what's made. You know curate successful for so long is that what seems very soft. Is very data-intensive and using data to make those decisions and we see that as being one of our core attributes in our core advantages is a boat as we build. Jason: [44:51] That certainly makes sense Brian I'm sad because I know we're running up on time and I have one more topic I want to make sure I get in which is this whole debate of video versus live video and I know you do you think about QVC and there's a lot of scarcity built-in which makes the the live model make a lot of sense and in China a lot of it has scarcity of deals and things in the u.s. I hear a lot of people calling things live that aren't even live and so I'm just curious like what you know do you think it needs to be live or is it a place for both like what how do you guys feel think about the live versus store and play video Commerce. Brian: [45:32] Yeah so we use both at soon so we think live live has a role in the sense of creating excitement creating a bit of scarcity also creating the the Serendipity the moment and the authenticity and organic and credibility of the content most of the content. In our mind is shot or created live meaning we're not trying to do a bunch of takes and a bunch of edits of the work in fact I tell people all the time I said it's part of the magic of one of the longest running show Saturday Night Live it's one of my favorite shows maybe maybe part of your audience loves that show as well as right it's taped in front of a live studio audience and part of what makes that show so engaging. Right is that reality and the fact that there's room for errors or groom for mistakes you know you may see one or two but it just feels so, in the moment we think that matters a lot in the experience but today. I don't know I don't know the facts but I suspect a lot of SNL is watched after the fact. [46:29] But the fact that it was shot in front of a live studio audience is what makes it so engaging so what we think about video we talk about it live here we often mean look what we want this to feel is live like meaning it should feel like you're having a fantastic conversation sometimes it will actually be live. But the vast majority of the content is going to be consumed post life because let's be honest gen Z doesn't really meet anybody for an appointment anymore from a from a watch perspective right they watch things on their own time when it makes sense for them, and it fits into their their life that doesn't take away from the fact that if the offer is big enough, for the products right right they'll show up in force for a live moment and so we believe that you need both in order to. [47:15] To create something that's compelling but for us you know largely what we think matters is creating content that is done by people who really know how to speak, can do it in one take right because you know they're good at what they what they do and can bring that level of Candor to the. To the content and that's that's what we think really will resonate candidly with people of all ages we don't think this is that's just specific to young people that's specific to everybody, we love candidness, we love I think you open the podcast here saying Hey listen if you make a mistake or two we're not going to stop and rerecord and all those things right and you're going to listen part of what makes this so natural is when it's. Captured in the moment we think that's true for video Commerce as well. Jason: [48:00] That I love that that that's a perfect way to sort of describe that the approach it makes perfect sense to me side note the reason we do that on the podcast is because Scott makes so many mistakes that we couldn't possibly go back and fix them all. Scot: [48:15] Hey I think Brian was saying we're influent we're popular influencers that's how I. Jason: [48:19] I feel like he's like as an l and the Jason and Scot show are the two. The two top top tier entertainment vehicles I think that's very fair but Brian I'm super sad to report that we've used up our allotted time this has been a great conversation and we sure appreciate you taking time to talk with us. Brian: [48:39] I appreciate you having me on the show thank you so much guys. Scot: [48:42] Brian if folks want to learn more about your online thoughts or you are you an influencer yourself do you publish somewhere or you just want to encourage them to check out that. Brian: [48:54] No you so you can absolutely follow me on LinkedIn for sure I do Post. On occasion I'm not an avid poster right now because my head has been down here but please do that and then again I would encourage you to download soon if you have an iPhone you can visit us at soon dot live too. Hear more about this if you're a brand and you want to be a part of it part of what we're doing here please go to soon dot live you can fill out a form and and someone from our our merchandising team will reach back out to you for fairly quickly and get you connected but. Yeah thank you again for the time. Jason: [49:30] Brian we will put all those links in the show notes for anyone that wants to follow up with soon and until next time happy Commercing!

Sabrina Callahan, VP of E-Commerce at Sam's Club, discusses mobile impact on shopping, challenges and opportunities of membership clubs, connecting digital marketing channels to digital experience, and building a brand for Sam’s Club in the digital era.

EP309 - Instacart IPO Filing Warning: Given the complexity and breadth of topics, this is a longer than usual episode with a runtime of 90 minutes (if we had more time, we'd produce a shorter podcast). Update: In this episode Jason mentioned that he didn't think Instacart accepted SNAP payments. It turns out that Instacart did start accepting SNAP earlier this month. On Friday, August 25th 2023 Instacart filled its S-1 IPO form with the SEC, in advance of its intention to make an initial public offering. The complete filing is almost 400 pages. In this episode we summarize all the key points, including a number of surprises, in the filing. If you want to follow along with the actual S-1, you can download it here. Scot suggests you focus on pages 101-124. Topics Covered: Cover Page and Entry Level Items Overall Growth Trends 25:50 Unit economics 42:90 Cohort Analysis 48:10 Instacart Ads 56:30 The Big Risk/Concern 1:00:11 Other observations (Instacart+, Carrot Services, Generative AI) 1:22:50 Other episodes mentioned: Episode 255 - Instacart Chief Revenue Officer Seth Dallaire and Episode 224 Customer Cohort Analysis and CLV with Dr. Daniel McCarthy. Don't forget to like our facebook page, and if you enjoyed this episode please write us a review on itunes. Episode 309 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded on Tuesday, August 29, 2023. http://jasonandscot.com Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of GetSpiffy and Co-Founder of ChannelAdvisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing. Jason: [0:23] Welcome to the Jason and Scot show this is episode 309 being recorded on Tuesday August 29th I'm your host Jason retailgeek Goldberg and as usual I'm here with your co-host Scot Wingo. Scot: [0:38] Hey Jason and welcome back Jason and Scot show listeners. We are going to jump into the talk tonight because one of our most popular shows as you know Jason the format is a deep dive and we have got a great Deep dive for you guys this episode. Last Friday August 25th there was a very big event not only in our favorite world's grocery which is Jason's favorite world and my favorite world of e-commerce and then Jason's favorite world of. But also in my favorite world of startups so this is this is a pretty big event and we wanted to dedicate a complete episode to it. I mean it is the filing of the S14 instacart. [1:24] And just to set it up the you know in my world of start-up land it has been very hard to get an IPO done so there's been a couple post coated and like late 2020. And then summon 21 and then there's been a dry spell there's been something called a dese back so you have this spec which is this. [1:44] Special-purpose acquisition thing and you can kind of go public through this kind of complicated convoluted thing. Tends not to go very well so there's been some of that like in My World Mobility there is one called get around and there's been a couple others and those typically have not. Gone so well they're down like 95% bird the scooter company did this as well. So it's been a very dry IPO market for startups and thus of interior backed investors. So there has been a lot of anticipation around when is that a PO when they're going to open who's going to be brave enough to kind of stick their foot out there first. And you know a lot of people have been rooming that instacart would be out there there's a couple other companies in this kind of unicorn Stratosphere stripe is another one that we cover a lot on the show from the payments world. There's also the others you can think of Jason there's this one. There's a software one that is just doing really well in AI that's been mentioned a lot not not open AI it'll come to me in a minute. So you know so this is kind of the real. Bang the Big Bang of here's a company that is being brave enough they're gonna go first and we're going to see what happens so it's going to be really interesting and we thought because it hits this Venn diagram of all of our favorite things that we would spend a fair amount of time on. [3:10] So first of all this is a 400 page document so our value add to the listeners is we have distilled it down into what we think are the most interesting little tidbits and some of the things we've learned from instacart it is nice because there's been a lot of rumors about how instacart Economics work and Jason has been tracking their ad piece which is you know cpgs have really seen some really nice results from that so we know that's been active and the areas we picked apart we thought we would cover tonight is I wanted to kind of give you a quick and dirty Scott's guide to reading an s-1 and we'll start at the cover page that's there's actually a lot that happens on the cover page so I want to spend a little time there and kind of give you a little I haven't taken a company poet behind the scenes of what's going on on there and then we're going to talk about some of the overall growth things that just kind of help you understand. [4:07] How to think about instacart how they're growing and what they do and what role they play and then unit economics one of the things that is happening more and more in these s1's is they're doing a more comprehensive cohort analysis and this is basically showing hey if if I car to a customer in a certain period how are they doing now and what are those Trends so that this this had a lot going on there of course we want to talk about the ad business and then little bit of a catch-all for other observations, Jason anything I missed before we jump into the cover page. Jason: [4:42] No I think you mostly covered it just one slight correction it's four of our five favorite things for those listeners that tuned in to hear us talk about Ahsoka we're going to do that on an upcoming episode so that Star Wars would be our fifth. Scot: [4:56] Yes sadly there was no Star Wars in this one so it's that one little part of the over the Venn diagram was left is its own little circle out in space. Jason: [5:06] That's a we call that a teaser for a future episode. Scot: [5:09] Yeah yeah we're we're Pros were 300-plus episodes into this thing and this is the kind of you know Pro level that we deliver on the pod. So you guys missed it Jason forgot to plug in his microphone earlier so that's a yeah we're still still learning every day, so when you open an s-1 the first thing you see is the cover page and it you know a lot of people just Breeze by it because it's a cover page but it has a lot of really valuable information so first of all the first thing that I noticed is I was searching for this on Edgar and I kept typing in instacart and it wouldn't show up and I was like WTH I know this s1's out there why can I not find it and then I saw an article and it said oh the company's real name is maple bear so that's the first thing you see on the cover is the company we all refer to as instacart its actual Corporation name is maple bear and it does business as instacart so I thought I did not know that prior so that was the first thing I learned right there on the cover so that's interesting so if you do go to the will put a link to the s-1 in the show notes but if you do Brave the Edgar SEC database yourself throwing a little Maple bear there and not instacart. Jason: [6:22] Not to be confused with Amazon's house brand Mama Bear. Scot: [6:26] Yeah yeah and I'm sure there's a honey bear and brown bears there's a there's a lot of a lot of bear things going on. The other thing that I was like to see is what symbol are they using I think it's fun to kind of you know as an entrepreneur to kind of think about what symbol you're going to use that best personifies your brand Channel Bowser we had ecom's so that was an exciting one so we captured e-commerce Shopify go. Jason: [6:52] The best ticker symbol of all times by the way. Scot: [6:55] Thank you thanks thanks I appreciate it. Shopify head shop and that was a good one and instacart / Maple bear is going with cart so I think that's a that's a that's a pretty nice one you know it kind of there a multi grocer chart cart and we all think about instacart I'm sure they hate being called Instagram so this kind of like really punches on the cart so maybe they get away from everyone mistakenly calm Instagram. Jason: [7:19] I think it's solid. Scot: [7:20] Yeah A-Plus on the symbol and then in the you'll notice that a lot of the evaluations and how many shares they're selling are blank and that's you know in this draft of this one which is the first kind of public one that they're dropping out there they'll they'll iterate a couple more times they'll do their Roadshow and then write one that, it prices they'll update the S12 include all that information so they'll make kind of literally a game day decision the night before IPO of how much based on the order book how much they want to sell and at what price so that, that's going to be blank through probably several more iterations as we go on then this is did you want to do something in. Jason: [8:04] No I was just I was just thinking that they I assume they left it blank because the underwriters were out of practice. Scot: [8:10] Yeah no no they they are there waiting and that's a good point because when you go public the the companies that take you public in this context they're all investment banks on Wall Street. But they they filled this role of Underwriters and basically what they're doing is they're acting as market makers they're going to cover your stock when it's public and they're also going to be basically pounding the pavement to sell your stock to buy side by side analysts and firms on Wall Street. Which there's two buckets of there's mutual funds and hedge funds there's also retail that I guess there's three buckets, retail would be you log into Schwab or Robin Hood and the diet of the IPO you try to buy some chairs that's retail and they all allocate a little bit of that for the IPO so they like retail to come in and get a little taste. [9:04] A lot of folks that if you're an accredited investor at an institution and you have a wealth manager, sometimes you can get a little bit of access to an IPO before it prices you don't get a special price or anything but you can if you're really excited and you're a retail customer you and you're in this kind of wealthy bucket then you can you can get some allocated shares I think is what they call it these call this friends and family they don't call that, that anymore that's called a allocated shares but what's important about the underwriters is there's actually a signal there several signals here and I didn't know this time went through the process. First of all they have lined up a who's who of investors so even before you get to Underwriters they have this really interesting note right before right underneath before they get in the underwriters and they say oh by the way we have lined up these investors already that have committed to buying and they have committed Asterix and then they kind of like take away the committed but. [10:05] I think that's a legality I think I think it's a pretty hard commitment is my reading of them and they basically say these guys are already these guys have lined up to buy at least 400 million in this offering. Regardless of the price and there's some big names in there there what I would call. Public-private so they have invested in instacart already as a private entity and then they have another side of there. Firm that invest in public entities and they have said that side is going to support the private side and that's nor just Bank tcv. [10:38] Sequoia and a couple others this is very unusual but I think it's an interesting play because it basically says to the market. Hey you don't have to worry about this thing you know taking on the first day because we're going to were signaling to you we're going to place a chunk of this with these folks that are long-term holders and they're going to backstop this thing I think of it as a adding a floor to the IPO basically saying we know it's been a while we know there's risk out there we're going to have a floor on this so so there's built-in demand for this IPO so that's quite unusual and this is the first time I've ever seen anything like that sometimes you'll see tiro price is a big one a big mutual fund that likes to do this or they'll have a private-public and they'll say you know they'll kind of suggests that, they're interested in buying more and they'll come out and say they don't plan to sell or they've accepted a lock up for a year or something like that I've never seen such a strong message as this one so I thought that was interesting. Okay then we move to the bottom of the cover and that's where you have the list of the underwriters and what's really interesting is the way this works is the bigger your font the bigger a role you play in the IPO so on this one the biggest font is Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan and you know they have I don't know what would you say Jason like a 40 Point font. Your. Jason: [12:03] Yeah I had to read it with my my PDF zoomed way up so I feel like I yeah but it was a big font. Scot: [12:11] Yeah yeah so those guys get like a you know they're kind of really big and then what's also interesting is where you show up on the page is important so your importance starts at the left and goes down to the right so the most important what we would call the vernacular is the lead left which is the biggest font on the left side of the cover is the lead Investment Bank and as Goldman Sachs and they're they're The Bluest of Blue Chips everyone wants Goldman Sachs if they come out. [12:37] And then usually you want either JP Morgan or Morgan Stanley now JPMorgan has increased greatly and stature over the last three years because they have weathered coded and they have basically absorbed most of Silicon Valley Bank's deposits and a lot of these other riskier Banks and their CEO is pretty famous Jamie dimon so they've this is kind of you know two blue tips on the top of the book here which is pretty interesting and then, then you kind of go down a bit and you end up with 18 more Underwriters and there's like three levels of them there's like the font gets smaller so you go from 40 point to 20 point then you go to like kind of like 15 point and you go to seven point and you know what's interesting is I have never seen this many Underwriters either so they basically have said we want everyone on Wall Street lined to go and help us sell this we will turn no Rock no Rock will be unturned looking for buyers of instacart stock with the institutional investors. There's some International Players so they've basically if you kind of said if you if you. [13:53] Few War Room doubt what are some things a company could do 2D risk an IPO they have done things I've never seen before times like three and then the last thing that's interesting is the economics each of these Banks gets kind of depends on where they are on the page so you know if it all this gets him to like, there's all this Machinery but these guys do it because they make money so Goldman will make their kind of highest percentage and then JPMorgan and so on and so on based on how much they contribute to the book and all this kind of calculus that goes on behind the scenes so I thought that was kind of a really interesting just on the cover some things that were very unusual from other IPOs I've seen Jason anything that you found on the cover that was riveting. Jason: [14:43] We'll know I did. I have a question for you though I got I guess I when I saw all of those Underwriters I kind of and perhaps erroneously assumed that part of what was going on here is, it's been a while since there were in any IPOs that went through an underwriter and that all of the underwriters are out there. Desperate for four deals and that therefore. Instacart had more more leverage to get more Underwriters like is it. Is it literally instacart just agreed to pay more for these two more Underwriters 2D risk the IPO is that. Scot: [15:23] Yeah I think. So human nature is that the lead laughed and Lead right want to absorb a lot of the deal and don't want to share too much so so typically there's some friction there right so they'll be like yeah you could add a couple and they use this tearing language I don't you know this is just kind of how I don't know who how they know what who's what dear, but tier one is Goldman Morgan and JP Morgan Morgan Stanley and then tier 2 is you get kind of Stiefel, a couple others in there then you go tier 3 and then you kind of have like an international kind of tearing as well so usually you get like two from Tier 1 Maybe two or three from tier 2 and then that's kind of it and then if you've if the company feels strongly like another consideration is when you go public one of the things that helps you long term is to have analysts that follow your stock and we've had many of these analysts on our show Mark mahaney Collin Sebastian these are and then Scott Devitt he was at stifel and he's moved on to another shop these are these are famous people in the internet marketing world so you want take Mark sets, I wasn't even as Fern was he ever green but that's not it. [16:40] Ever Quorum so so you as the company can say the Goldman hey I know you guys want to keep a lot of Economics but I want mahaney on this and we got to get ever Cora so some of those on the bottom are probably International distribution retail or something the company wanted kind of specific to add them on and you know that was all pre-negotiated with Goldman getting lead left they had they kind of had to acquiesce to having a bit of a large number of Underwriters on there so I don't yeah I don't think I'm sure they all wanted to be to your point like there certainly wasn't even saying no to being invited to this and they probably you know you just bake off in this was I came to imagine if they ended up with 18 like, mr. started with 80 I don't know it's crazy that was probably like a. Six week bake off just to hear from all the bankers so yes I think there's more around the analyst going on with with the large number on some of those. Jason: [17:39] Got it and then I want to hear your speculation about where the price might come in but I'm trying to remember the details there's been a lot of interesting things going on with the private placements before we got to this point right so I think the some of the valuations of the private placements were at some point disclosed and then I want to say instacart reset there. Their valuation at a lower number while they were still private like presumably to make the equity appealing for employees. Scot: [18:17] Yeah the sequence of events and this is all you know they don't disclose all this in this one because it's kind of like. Jason: [18:25] Sure I'm just trying to get the the Run. Scot: [18:27] The Whispers And if you read some of these you know I subscribe to a lot of things that talk about some of this kind of rumors and so take it with a grain of salt but there was some sequins like they were chugging along and then Covent hit and it was like Off to the Races vertical and I think the wheels kind of came off the bus and they started to lose money because the unit economics weren't weren't ready for for like a surge like that and then right around 21 they replace the CEO and they had to kind of emergency raise some Capital which is kind of like one of the worst times to do it because even though their revenue was surging the rest of the market was in the toilet basically so I think they had to do a Down Round And what I've heard is their bed raised money as high as 39 billion and then they took this haircut at with this new CEO in this kind of re leaning down the company at about 13 billion so. [19:19] So I think that's kind of like the watermark is kind of where they've last raised money and if you look at their revenue that's actually not that's a very reasonable Place given where you know they've grown since then but now what's the revenue like four billion ish yeah so they're like 3 billion and 22 in revs so that's like a four times Revenue which is pretty reasonable for a company growing the way they are with with good profitability so I would be I would not be surprised we don't we won't know this per share price until we see the denominator and they didn't have the denominator which is market cap divided by number of shares equals share price we don't know the number of shares so I would I would suspect. I'll guess, four billion I'm gonna guess 20 billion would be a low like I think it will price they're on the low end and it could go as high as 25 30 depends on you know. Retail and how much momentum it gets with with buyers. Jason: [20:26] And part of the art here is you don't you don't want to price it too low because that means you you have money on the table when you sold your Equity but you also don't want to price too high and have the, the stock like go down from the offering price and get below water right away right so. Scot: [20:49] Yeah it's very common we kind of had this situation at Channel visor we went public right after you know cortical right after in a longer time window of 08 09 and you know they strongly we had golden lead left and they strongly encouraged us to think long-term and not get obsessed about that pricing and leave a little bit of money on the table and yeah and then over time you could do a secondary at a higher price and you really want to you don't want to tank especially in a tepid market so I'm sure this was all part of the um you know Goldman would counter negotiate this to be lead left and say look we we need your commitment that your yep part of the pitch is they give you what they think it's worth and how it's going to price and they also discuss the strategy and that's part of the selection processes and you would think it would be. Okay whoever says they're gonna give me the highest price but you actually kind of they really stand out a lot because the Goldman people can talk about Dave, they've got like a lot of data to back up their strategy and you know there's like Watson there that that are. It would make your head spin and so they do a really good job of talking about why it makes sense to price the way they think and how how they see it over a longer Arc of time. Jason: [22:12] Gotcha so the guys with all the money have really good justification for why you shouldn't worry so much about the money. Scot: [22:18] And then the other thing to know though is what typically happens is you are not sharing you're not selling any one shares so the company so as part of this IPO the company will issue new shares so so you as the founder and the other investors you still have your shares you're not actually selling them at this moment so you know in a way now you get diluted right so the flip of that is your percent ownership goes down but you know it's kind of the would you take a little bit smaller. Of that and long term when you can sell your shares as the investor and the founder and the team and the people that bet on you now you know can you execute and deliver and then earn your way into a higher price and then that's when you can kind of like get some equipment sir. Jason: [23:08] Do you want a little bit of a grapefruit or all of a grape. Scot: [23:11] Yes exactly yep that is a good description. [23:17] Okay so here's here's the other part of the quick and dirty guide to reading the S1 you can take so that's cover is really good and then you take the literally the next let's see what is it. 100 pages and you can toss them so this is where the lawyers come in and they love to make sure you understand all the risk factors you know a meteor could hit the Earth people could stop needing groceries cybersecurity I could be no one wants to shop for them it could be they'll compete with a bunch of people Amazon is always a risk factor Google Microsoft. So all that really doesn't add value and then there's a little bit of financial stuff but it's it's pretty dry and it's kind of like from the Auditors almost so it's like super drive so it always do is you skip to the part of this one we're finally the lawyers have earned their large fees and they vomited forth 100 pages of risk you know stuff. And then you get to write your story and that's called the Management's discussion and Analysis in the industry it's called the md&a. [24:27] It's confusing I thought for a long time it was md&a because Aaron says mdna really fast and they're saying the word A and D and it sounds like an end to me and I kept saying what the heck does md&a stand for they're like what do you mean what's up what are you saying. It's like a who's I first got a thing but it's md&a so Management's discussion and Analysis and this is where you. Jason: [24:49] Because I read all 100 pages and and I'm super depressed and one of the risk factors is the way I could become sentient and take over the Earth. Scot: [25:00] Mmm yep that is a risk factor and then it will bring our groceries to us I guess as we are batteries for its consumption. Jason: [25:08] The computers won't eat. Scot: [25:10] So if you really want you know so what you can do is you can get the gist of 95% of this by printing out the s-1 pages 1012 124 that's it's only 23 pages and it's really dense but it is actually this is actually a very good read they did a very good job of making this so you know. It's very approachable and they go into a level of detail that's really handy into problem so we're going to give you some of the highlights from that but if you want to go deep on your own we will give you all you need to go to the next level just by looking at those 23 pages. Okay so what did you see and them DNA and that got your attention. Jason: [25:55] Well I mean a number of things so maybe just super high level what's exciting to me like obviously a lot of this information about the business was not, publicly available so in the process of going public in issuing S1 they suddenly reveal a lot of things and they reveal things about. Their own business but they also have to paint a pretty good picture of what they think is happening and could happen in the digital grocery business so it's kind of like getting a whole class of really smart people to sort of, write a thesis about the the digital grocery business that we get to read and interpret and you know we they reveal things that we didn't know like how valuable customers are over time and how much consumers spend on a given order at instacart and what percent share of wallet they think digital gets versus brick and mortar and all these sorts of things and we'll get into a bunch of them in the in the individual sessions but my my takeaway from the beginning of that management discussion was that it's a. [27:08] A pretty robust business that the aggregate amount of. GTV that they that they have is pretty significant its twenty eight point eight billion dollars in groceries that they sold in 2022. Scot: [27:27] Yeah and GTV is gross transaction volume so instacart it's basically a Marketplace like eBay or Amazon where parts of parts of Amazon all of you back where you have in the marketplace of product Marketplace use GMB a lot of payment systems like PayPal use tpv gross merchandising value total payment volume they have chosen to use this term for the gross figure of GTV and at first I thought it was going to be groceries to do but it's gross transaction value I thought for sure it was like grocery, I was trying to decode it without looking it up and I was like that can't be grocery because then I don't know what a TV is doing there and you know so then their revenue is a derivative of that meaning of some percentage then of that big number Falls to them as Revenue after they pay the grocer The Shopper and then instacart the business has the leftovers and which ends up, we'll go through the unique and I'll mix it ends up being being pretty small because the grocery business does not have huge merchants. Jason: [28:26] Yeah so kind of looking at those business fundamentals that you know in 2022 they sold 28.8, billion dollars worth of stuff which for them generated 2.5 billion dollars in revenue and they were profitable on that Revenue they they net 428. Million dollars which like back in the a couple years ago when there were more IPOs happening there were there were IPOs in the space they were happening with companies that still weren't profitable so so that was interesting that they they were meaningfully profitable and then the, you know you're super interested in what the growth trajectory is and. [29:13] 20:19 was a very small year so going from 2019 to 2020 you know and then the pandemic app in the middle 2020 and urban was ordering groceries from, from instacart so the growth in 2020 was astronomical like 300% or something like that. But then the growth in 2021 over 2020 was 24%. On revenue and the growth in 2022 over 2021 was 39% in Revenue so. The revenue growth is Meaningful and accelerating. Which would be exciting they were not profitable in 2020 or 2021 so 2022 is the First full year that they were profitable. The GTD is a little different though they had significant growth three hundred percent in 2020 20 percent in 20 21 and 16 percent in 2022 so, well they have a track record of growth it's the top on GTV growth is decelerating. And then of course we're halfway through 2023 so they have to disclose. [30:23] How the well they've done in the first six months of this year and they compared to that to last year and the revenue and GTV are both essentially flat in the first six months of this year. Versus last year so I don't know you'll have to tell me but I look at that and you go man there's some robust stuff here there's a great growth story. I should have mentioned that that's on an annual basis on a quarterly basis they have five consecutive quarters of profitability which also seems. Impressive him pretty favorable but it's probably a slight worry that the. A lot of that growth seems like it's it's leveling off in 2023 I don't know if. That the most recent performance gets gets over weighted or underweighted and sort of evaluating the the prospects for the company. Scot: [31:19] Yeah the buyers will you know what every everyone has a different way they value things and they they're going to build their own models and the company will give them some guidance that's some of the stuff we did it we're not going to go over and but you have to be careful because you don't want to make forward-looking statements so this is this weird dance you do of you. You try to get people excited by not saying anything about the future which is which is a little tricky so you know what I imagine instacart s' just reading the tea leaves again they talked a lot about how they don't really do much sales and marketing which I kind of read to say, look we really hunkered down on our unique economic sand we've got it dialed in right now and spoiler will get to adds a lot of a lot of that has come from this ad piece. And I think now. [32:07] Because investor and I was the bullish scenario is you know they're going to raise at least 400 million they'll probably raise a lot of money from this they could start doing some advertising and you pick up some new customers that again I'm going to kind of hope they look at the cohorts those cohorts look like with what this in the here and they have at least the same unique anomic so if not better and I'm going to look at this growth accelerating wow what Wall Street loves their favorite favorite favorite kind of the top quadrant is accelerating Revenue growth an accelerating profitability and you know I could see a scenario the light has to go their way but I could see a scenario where that works here you know if they could if they could start spending some really careful sales and marketing dollars building the brand where they've been kind of under the radar for the most part and then. That works those cohorts stick and then they can work on the economics because that's gonna bring more advertisers per order because the more average more orders and more. GTV is going to bring more cpgs in that want to advertise against that then you could argue accelerating Revenue growth accelerating profitable unit economics. So I think that's the bull case the bear case is they've hit saturation they've got all the stores. 4% is anemic and nowhere to go but down. So that's the end of it is it is going to be interesting to see there's a little bit of A Tale of Two Cities in those possible outcomes. Jason: [33:36] Yeah what else jumped out at you in the management discussion. Scot: [33:43] They made a big point of talking about they have 7.7 million monthly active users which is a good number but they point out that in the u.s. there's 330 million consumers or I guess population so they use that and this is kind of one of those hints I was talking about the basically said hey we're. We've done good to get here but these are like the early adopters we still have a long way to go there's a lot of people you know I don't think they'll get all of them and I'll talk about that in a second but there's a lot more people that you should be using our service that aren't is so they kind of paint that 7.7 million and say that's teeny tiny compared to where we should be. And then you know the other thing they talked about that I thought was interesting I wanted to get your opinion on is they talk about, per user per month they get three hundred and Seventeen dollars and I was wondering I know you probably know this off the top of your head. What is if you look at the average US consumer and you probably look at the. Population of the convenience store that's like a kind of probably like that 100K and up household you know what is their monthly and is this like half of it a quarter what is your spidey sense tells you on that. Jason: [35:00] Yeah so real rough numbers the average American family and you know people shop for groceries in households versus people so it's almost better to talk in household so there's like 131 million households in the US and sin they've got. Seven million of them as customers the average household shops for groceries 1.6 times a week and they spend a hundred dollars per visit so you kind of you know rough that up and you get. Get what is that I'll have the intern do in turn do the math one point six times. 100 times, 4.5 is 720 total grocery spin which I don't have the census numbers in front of me but but that passes the smell test that so. Households are spending six seven hundred bucks a month and instacart saying that they're getting less than half of that. Scot: [36:12] Yeah and I saw some people speculate on this that, what their inferring is Davin they have an average order of 110 so this is like 2.6 instacart some month instacart orders per user per month that's another kind of interesting metric and then people are speculating in the saying the pattern is probably people are doing a big shop once a month and they're kind of going and getting you know, a lot of like maybe canned goods and things like that and then they supplement it with two or three instacart has to bring maybe a refresh of the the replenishable is like the cheese the milk the veggies and the fruits kind of thing. Again this is everyone just kind of like taking data and kind of going out for data point so the cone of uncertainty is pretty big out there but it kind of passed my sniff test that's how we've used it before, at our house with exception of wizard a lot at work to fill our snack area at work and we're probably like we're probably like top one quartile of this whole thing that's the number of snacks we get from Instagram. There's a deep does that that analysis of the one big shop yourself and then supplement does that. Jason: [37:26] No exact yeah I mean I think the Grocer's talk and I hesitate to bring this up because I don't think I remember I'll for off the top my head but there's like four typical types of shopping missions right so there is that like Pantry stocking shop there's like a weekly shop there's a. Occasion Bay shop where your your it's date night or it's Christmas or whatever and you make a special shop and then there's those, top off shops and I think it's generally agreed like there's not a big cohort of consumers that have just said I'm never using a grocery store again then I'm exclusive we gonna, I have all of my my calories show up at my doorstep so digital grocery ends up being one of the tools in the family's tool kit for, procuring their their calories and so it makes. Total sense that they would have a share that one of the ways they could grow is to increase that share presumably by. Being the best choice for more of those different kinds of missions. Scot: [38:34] Yeah and then the md&a they talk a lot about how they have these new offerings where you can get a weekly Monday thing and they're definitely poking around at this experimenting on how to grow the sand again they're kind of signaling we think we've got some room to go on this we can get that. [38:51] Bridge order up and we can get the ma use way up the second thing I noticed was you know they use this they use this phrase, several times you can tell it's kind of like must be tied to company values and they talk about we believe people want selection quality value and convenience if that sounds familiar to you the this is infamously brought up in the Amazon Jeff Bezos first shareholder letter in 1997 where he talks about the mark you know what Amazon believes and they believe that a multi-decade trend is people will not get tired of selection quality value and when value he uses kind of free shipping like versus product value is pretty specific on it and then convenience and then what got me thinking about this is. [39:38] Value inconvenience her you know they're often in conflict and this is the whole point of we've had, Casey on the show from the Lloyd there bifurcation kind of model which shows this was this I think a lot about this because this is the whole one of the whole reasons I started spiffy and we decided early on if we're going to be convenient we can't be the cheapest and I don't think people look at instacart as the cheapest you know whenever we use it it's kind of like, holy cow this is this is a pretty expensive treat in you know I really kind of need to be able to justify this to myself that I can't just pop over the grocery store and do this myself it needs to be yeah some some reason I'm going to miss a kid event or something that I'm getting a really good bang for the buck here so I thought that was interesting that at some point I wonder do they value part kind of struggle with you know how. Jason: [40:31] I think they have to have a. A more liberal definition of value because I think you're exactly right right and obviously you know value means different things to different people like they disclosed later in the S1 that they not surprisingly that they skew disproportionately to households that make over 100,000 a year compared to a traditional retail and particularly a traditional grocer like give I've no idea what it looked like when they actually did it but when Kroger went public or certainly when Walmart went public they would have talked about the top of their tree that we think the consumer really values price and and Walmart probably said price not value and you know they built a business around very aggressively maintaining those low prices because they thought that was the beginning of their flywheel and and you know Amazon talked about value but they when they said value a lot of what they meant was and we're going to you know have the very competitive or the lowest price on a lot of these goods and, the the business model of instacart makes it unlikely that that can be their positioning so they have to kind of, find a a valid but alternative definition of value to hang their hat on. Scot: [41:50] Yeah and I thought was interesting they put convenience a lot you know last you may say oh you're reading too much into it but you know I've been in rooms you spend so much time on every word there's a purpose to this order of selection quality value and convenience and and they mentioned this exact phrase like several times so this is a this seems to be an yeah a pretty important phrase in their their world to I just thought that was I want to get your take on you know at some point they may cross this road where they have to pick a lane and it'll be if it ain't going to be the value late you know I don't see a path there but you know maybe they think they can and you know they also talked about selling to the grocer some software so maybe that's kind of like how they're squeaking that in I don't know. Jason: [42:36] Yeah yeah and there's I think we'll talk about this and in our final conclusion but the there's multiple ways you could see this going over time and depending on which path it took like value could mean something different. So what will come back to that. I heard you like dissected all of the the disclose data and put together unit economic model for for instacart. Scot: [43:07] Yeah so it starts at the top so the GTV per order so every order that comes in they get the GTV as $110 and then there here's how they slice the onion so the biggest chunk goes to the grocer for the groceries and they get 83 percent which is $91 so right off the top we're left with $19 but now the grocer they have to go make all their money so instacart is that's what you would basically get I think if you and I went to the grocery store you know maybe they're getting a little bit of a discount but they're they're taking that $91 and they're adding $19 on top of it and this is all X tip there's a there's there is a delivery fee and what not so then the Shopper gets 8.2% or nine dollars in order and that's in that delivery fee and then they get the tips. Jason: [43:58] Clarification on shopper because like in most contact Shopper would mean the consumer that's buying the goods The Shopper in this case is is a instacart gig worker that goes to the store and gets Aggregates the order for the customer. Scot: [44:14] Exactly the gig worker is the Shopper so they get nine dollars and they get 100% of the tip so whenever you you know whenever you what what they don't say some of these gay places in this bothers me because we fell out on this they say the gig worker gets 100% but then they take a transaction fee of 3%, now I can't find they say 100% I can't see any little asterisks that says there's going to skim 3% or something so. [44:44] So to the hopefully they're being super up front and they the gig worker does get 100% of the tips but the tips aren't in the economic the kind of sit over on the side to go to kind of bypass instacart all together and they go straight to the shopper. Who also gets nine dollars from instacart so if you gave a 20 dollar tip the the Shoppers going to get 20 plus 9 or 22, then at this point we are finally at instacart Revenue which is ten dollars and that's into pieces seven dollars is the transaction revenue and three is ads. So almost half their margin you know so 30% I guess yeah. I say half because the line is going so fast it will become half probably by 2024 you know half the. Profit the margin the revenue that they get and probably disproportionate part of margin is from the ad piece which we're going to talk about in detail so that is. That's pretty important to this whole enchilada and until they figure that out this didn't really work I do. [45:48] So they get so 110 dollar order $91 goes the grocer that leaves us with 19 Shopper gets nine we're left with 10 7 of that, is the transaction Revenue three is ADS then their costs come out they have three dollars of cost per order. And this is this is things like you know their entire some allocation of all their website hosting the engineering team developed the app. I don't know if they would put sales and marketing in there and they weren't very specific about what they do and don't put in cogs so that was a question mark. And they're left with seven dollars of gross profit for that order. My bet is marketing is not in there and they kind of take that up later but again the didn't really. Disclose that I saw what all was and not in Cox so basically that 110 boils down to seven dollars a profit from them and if we looked at it you know. I bet that three of that seven is basically from the ads and you know because there's almost no cost to serve an ad and so so I thought that was pretty interesting that like you know around half of the Prophet basically is from the ad system. Jason: [47:00] Yeah I think I think it's for sure interesting and like you know two possibilities there there there, average value of an order is 110 bucks traditional brick-and-mortar grocer is a hundred bucks and so one question like did instacart wasn't totally clear I mean they tried to take credit for having a higher order value but it wasn't clear like do we think. There's something unique about our experience that causes people to spend more or. Is our service just more expensive and so therefore you know if I got the same 60 items from from Walmart it would cost me $100 but if I got it from instacart Cassandra and ten dollars. But if it's the latter and I'm sure the real answer somewhere in between but but if it's the latter then you go you know all of the, The Profit that instacart is potentially taking is kind of from the. The convenient spread where they're you know getting consumers to pay more for the extra convenience of this grocery delivery. Scot: [48:08] So that was the unique nanak's what did you discover from the cohorts. Jason: [48:12] Yeah well I think we both we both noticed that they had a pretty detailed cohort analysis in the s-1 and by cohort analysis what we mean is they. They break down all the revenue they get from every. Group of customers on the first year they acquire those customers and then they track the spending for that group of customers in each, subsequent year and so you have a cohort that you acquired in 2017 you have a cohort you acquired in 2018, so on and so forth through this 20:22 cohort and there's. Other dimensions you could do Court analysis on but this this tenure cohort is most common and loyal listeners of the show will know we've certainly talked about it before no most notably with a guest Professor Dan McCarthy. From Emory University who spends a lot of time. [49:13] Talking about and thinking about cohort analysis so I my first thought when I saw this cohort analysis is I'll bet you Dan McCarthy's really happy right now and is probably. Deep deep into these numbers and he has a phrase that he calls a super annuities which is for the circumstances. The older cohorts get more valuable over time and keep contributing more Revenue to your business which is, you know that if you think about it that's that's the ideal state right you want those kind of six-year-old cohorts to be. [49:51] Growing and be your most valuable and if they're you know significantly tailing off over time then like you know you start to question the core value proposition of the business like maybe customers get fatigued with your business or decide it's not a good value in the long run or something else so um the the big takeaway for me of the cohort analysis is the cohorts grow over time the if you look at like the year one value of this cohort it averages $226 and then it goes up 33 percent in year two to three hundred dollars and then up 16%, to 350 dollars in year three and then another up another 16% to 4:00 in your for and then up 10% $445 in year 5 and up another 8% to 480 dollars in year 6 and so like fundamentally. That is a very good picture of. The value of the cohorts and I'm certain why they chose to include the cohort analysis in there as one because I don't believe there's any. Any filing requirement to do that and certainly lots of companies don't include any cohort cohort analysis but then my kind of secondary take is. [51:12] You know not every year is the same and so some of those cohorts like started before Cove it and then they're their behavior, was slightly impacted by their maturity but also impacted by covet and some of these cohorts started after Cove ID and so one of the things you would look for in that cohort analysis is did these guys just get a big spike from Cova da, when people are afraid to go to grocery stores and you know has that worn off right and that's kind of a comment common narrative out there like I argue. [51:45] It's mostly misunderstood when people give that narrative about digital but it's. It's even more likely that is misunderstood if you have that narrative and grocery because grocery appears like on the surface to be the one category where hey we're at three percent e-commerce penetration before covet and now we're 12% e-commerce penetration and so this, these cohort analysis if if there was a spike that dip back down you would expect to see some of the later cohorts underperforming versus the the precoded cohorts and we don't see that right that like all the cohorts grow and they grow over time the rate of growth slows down over time which is like I think pretty pretty typical and not surprising um so all that was super favorable the one thing and one will have to have Dan on the show but the one thing that I think wasn't in here that you'd really want to understand how valuable the customer bases and and again guys like Dan kind of pioneered this idea of how you value a company based on their customer base. [52:53] And kind of set the price based on on this type of data but I think they would also want to see some churn data and understand. How many people are each in each of these cohorts and whether there's the same people or lots of defectors and new people coming and all those sorts of things and none of that was was disclosed and assess. Scot: [53:22] Yeah you're right the I think they're making the argument that the swamps turn but because they don't disclose it you kind of. You have to trust him and he would he would want that data because you know the whole Begin Again the the bull case here is all right if you got super annuities than spending ad dollars to bring super annuities in this smart right because everyone you bring in the door is going to follow this cohort and start of it you know you and I looking at a table that the says you're one they start at 2:26 and then by year 60 at 500 bucks so they they double over their life cycle in their GTV so over six years so if you know if you can go buy them for a hundred bucks a pop then you would just go and, and spend all that money in it should be we have a super annuity on one side you can spend a lot of money acquiring customers on the other. Jason: [54:15] For sure true what. Scot: [54:17] You turn there's something that they could hide in there. Jason: [54:19] Yeah so you have to worry about that you also side note like a thing that drives CFOs crazy about marketers is you also have to have this argument about correlation and causation right that like if I went out and bought a bunch of customers would they maintain this the same level of performance or with those those. Purchase customers through higher advertising and through greater sales and marketing a activities be less oil less valuable customers by. The answer varies depending on the business. Scot: [54:53] Yeah that's where I this kind of come back to that bifurcation thinks I think would you say 120 million households. Jason: [54:59] Yeah 131. Scot: [55:00] Yeah so there's probably I think it's probably a pretty evenly split between convenience and value so call it 60 and they've got 7.7 so there's actually good I think they've got a 10% share of, what does the actual dress for Market because I don't think they're going to get any of the value or in a consumers because yeah the valuing consumer does not pay for convenience they'll just go to grocery store. Jason: [55:23] Yeah and again in the bottom quartile a lot of people are shopping for for groceries with government assistance and I don't actually think instacart should double-check this but I don't believe instacart has a way to accept Snap payments. Scot: [55:36] Yeah I don't think the government is going to subsidize the food delivered. Jason: [55:39] Well they just you know they do in other great white white guy like you can order groceries online from Walmart and pay with SNAP but I don't think you can with instacart. Scot: [55:49] Yes that's another factor and then at some point yeah I'm sure you'll bring this up but the. The if you're if you're a grocer you know a lot of ours opt out of the sand to themselves and they like we have a Harris Teeter that they don't accept instacart yeah they're not on there and they want to do their own they want to own the customer themselves. Jason: [56:12] Yeah I save that discussion for other but I think that's a super important one. Scot: [56:16] Forget I said that that's a teaser that's it's a teaser was what we call a tease. Jason: [56:19] Excellent teaser yeah because I feel like we've gone to the add segment of the breakdown of is there anything else you wanted to cover before that Scott. Scot: [56:28] No I'm on the edge of my seat to hear what you thought about that specific. Jason: [56:31] Yeah so it turns out instacart sanad Essence and probably shouldn't surprise anyone you know Scott you alluded to the change in CEO the the current CEO for this IPO is fidge Asuma Seema who formerly was VP of advertising at Facebook so they brought in a Facebook. Exact to run this business and shoot I should have looked up what episode he was on but Seth Dallaire was a past guest on this show when he was the chief Revenue officer. For instacart which was right around the time that that fidget joined. [57:19] Instacart so we actually had a discussion about their aspirations to become an advertising business and spoiler alert, it worked at instacart which we're going to break into and that guess set the layer subsequently was hired as the chief Revenue officer at Walmart where he's. Building Walmart connect which is also working so turns out ads are becoming an increasingly important part of the ecosystem for retailers but the basic ad math at instacart is that in 2022 the last full year of data instacart generated 470 million dollars in ads so 470 million on 28 billion in GTV, means that that's about 2.6 percent of the spin. That went to ads it's thirty percent of their revenue today and. [58:20] It's growing at 29 percent so it went up 29% from 2022 to from 21 to 20 22. Um it's grown another twenty four percent in the first months of six months of 2023 so, a lot of the unit economics of their transactions have kind of stabilized and are flat the one thing that's still growing at a very fast double-digit pace, is the ad business and at seven and twenty million dollars it's already reasonably robust and they don't. Ads are not a line item on the income statement that they included like you know and presumably like it's not. You could argue it's not Material against the three billion in in Revenue. But the so we don't we don't really know exactly how profitable, Those ads are but in general we would call these ads or retail media Network and the you know people argue about how profitable these retail media networks are people particularly argue about Amazon's but kind of the middle of the range when people estimate how what how profitable these things are is that they're about 75 percent gross right so in theory they should be near 99% gross margin because like you don't have to make anything to sell an ad. [59:46] You know you do need some technology you need an ad server you need Administration and salespeople you need brand safety people you know there is. Some infrastructure some of which has to scale with the ad business and so the the kind of. Most common estimate that that I see out there is like 75% of that revenue from ad business is profit. So that implies that the ad business contributed seven 555 million to the. To the income statement for 2022. Um and they were only profitable 428 million in 2022 so that the ad business contribute like by that sort of slice the ad business contributed. [1:00:33] You know covered all of their losses and and was essentially all of their their profit. In in 2022 and it's growing faster than anything else so it's very clear that the ad business is a key. Tenant of this instacart model and they in the management can section they it was kind of funny working for a big, advertising agency because they had to spend a fair amount of time like justifying that ads are valuable good thing and that people are spending money on ads so they kind of you know paint paint this picture that consumer packaged Goods companies which are you know most of the goods that instacart cells that. [1:01:20] Cpgs in the u.s. spend about 200 billion dollars a year on advertising and currently about a quarter of that is digital. And so the. The you know a typical cpg spends like about thirty percent of their gross sales on advertising and you know at the moment instacart is collecting about less than three percent of its sales in advertising so I think they're saying like hey. Advertising is super effective it's an important part of our economic model and there's a ton of. Of potential growth for us in this market and that cpgs need us and they amongst their claims about the size of their business, there are 50 500 brands that are advertising on instacart today and those are. At the moment all brands that sell. [1:02:18] Whose Goods get sold on instacart so we call that endemic advertisers right so it's it's Mondelez selling cookies and folks like that a lot of advertising companies. Sell ads to people that aren't necessarily selling through the. The the platform we call those non-endemic advertisers and we I don't think there are any non-endemic advertisers on instacart as of yet. But so at the Top Line like these are these are solid fundamentals for an ad business you like. [1:02:54] From my perspective retail media networks are super important evolution in the space they are very important I actually think for a lot of smaller retailers they get overhyped and that there's a problem with scale with a lot of these but instacart appears to be one of the companies. That has enough scale to build a real. A real business around this there is a unique problem that instacart has with ads that you know I think they've only been partially able to remediate so far who's paying for the ads. [1:03:25] Right so they talked about the brands paying for the ad right it's Procter & Gamble about the ad but there's a lot of stakeholders with budgets at Procter & Gamble, there's Mark Pritchard that buys Super Bowl ads and tries to build the brand and make people love tied but there are also account teams, that are trying to Goose the sales at their account so there's a Walmart account team and a Kroger account team and an Albertsons account team and all of those guys have an ad budget, that they want to use to sell more stuff at Walmart Kroger and Albertsons respectively. And so the big problem you have with instacart is you spend that ad dollar with instacart and you don't actually know. Which retailer it's going to impact. Right and so it's kind of like it has to come out of the top of funnel ad budget but it's bottom of the funnel Performance Marketing, type ads mostly search ads and so not saying that model can't work but it's. [1:04:33] The the guys with budgets that are used to buying ads are used to a slightly different structure so I will say that at the moment instacart causes a lot of consternation because it's a it's an unusual Beast that people don't exactly know how to budget for or how to spend their money on and you know I would assume if instacart wants to grow a lot they have to make that, easier for for the brands to do. Scot: [1:05:00] Yeah so what do you think. They're so this is a relatively good chunk of Revenue where do you think they're getting it from is it online going offline I mean offline going online are they taking it from Google are they taking it from couponing or. Two Brands even do like newspaper inserts are still a thing like I know that back in the day. Jason: [1:05:22] So I know I yeah I think. Brands are pretty pretty rapidly shifting their their dollars to digital vehicles and so two things like there's you know traditional kind of, newspaper magazine advertising that's atrophying and and the brands are replacing that with digital there's a slight misnomer the whole privacy thing and Facebook is a real thing but you know who wasn't buying a huge amounts of Facebook ads are like National cpgs with huge brand recall so so you know those tended to be smaller Brands and longer tail things so it's less like oh. [1:06:05] The these guys are shifting from Facebook it's more they're shifting from old-school marketing and over are television to to these digital vehicles but a big chunk of it is still coming out of these trade budgets right and so there may have been a pool of money that was allocated to spend at Kroger and it used to get spend on newspaper circulars that were like Kroger ads that fell out of the newspaper and that's an increasingly ineffective vehicle or maybe they even got spent on floor decals in the aisle at Kroger right you know like Shopper marketing tactics or trade tactics and so increasingly the retail media networks are getting a chunk of those trade dollars and I do think instacart is getting some of those even though it's trickier to do because you know it's not allocated exactly 21 specific retailer at the moment. Scot: [1:07:07] Yeah the so what did the ad formats I've seen is I always get this one that's like you through some Quaker Oats granola bars in there if you add these six things will give you a five bucks or something I've seen a coupon and I've seen a you know an upsell hey you've previously bought this or you may like this are there those are the three main add units or am I missing something. Jason: [1:07:33] Yeah so I am not going to speak specifically about the variation in ad units but as a general rule like probably I'm assuming the most predominant ads on the platform are search ads right so people search for products like always and you know above all the organic results are a bunch of sponsored ads right and so off very often those don't have a special offer in them they're just premium. [1:08:00] And so a big chunk is probably those those search ads you know then they're there are like Banner type ads that that land either on like the homepage of a particular retailer or on a category page or subcategory page and more often those are likely to have some call-to-action offer in them so they might have a promotion or a discount of some kind and then in the digital space um there's a lot of what we call like top off and impulse ads which are what you were just talking about right and you know one of the big problems we have with digital grocery is when you go shopping at the grocery store your wife sends you to the store with a list of 10 items and you buy all those 10 items but then you walk by the ice cream aisle on your way to the cash wrap and you add ice cream even though you didn't plan to buy ice cream and then when you're standing in the cash wrap, you're sneering at that Snickers bar or that Wrigley gum and you add that to the car and maybe a cold Coke to drink on the way home from the grocery store so a big chunk of a traditional grocer sales are all these unplanned impulse purchases and that. [1:09:16] By default happens a lot less in digital Grocery and so a lot of these ad formats are kind of are, our Industries early efforts to try to reinvent digital impulse and I would I would call it pretty imperfect at the moment. Scot: [1:09:35] Don't you get a nursing inside about gum or something like because self-checkout smelled the gum that serendipity. Jason: [1:09:42] Yeah the the that that cash wrap used to be the most valuable real estate in a grocery store like the most Revenue per square foot was that what we call the cash wrap which is the. The conveyor belt that you stand in line and actually the first thing that killed the cash wrap was not any of this digital shopping or any of these things it was. Facebook and the mobile phone and simply because you now had something else to do when you are standing in line so you were paying attention to your phone and back then you are on Facebook today you'd probably be on tick tock but you're doing that instead of being forced to stare at the gum or the the coke with a suspiciously intentional you know Sheen of dew on it. And so just impulse buys went down just because the darn phones were distracting people that were standing in line and now that you don't even walk in the store or stand in line you know of course we lose. A lot of our our impulse juice so I think you know if we we went from three percent online sales to 12 percent online sales if we get in those twenty or thirty percent it's it's. Like the economics are only going to work if Grocers figure out how to replace those lost Sample Sales. Scot: [1:10:55] At some point does this create channel conflict if I'm Kroger I want to these a dollars in their kind of happening. Or the order gets to me and your skin you're skimming them away from me like do you think Grocers wake up and say sorry if this is something on discuss later. Jason: [1:11:12] No let's pivot to that because I think that was the end of my ads section is there anything that you want to ask her missed about her noticed about ads that. Scot: [1:11:21] No I already said it just kind of reminds me Amazon so I did you know. Jason: [1:11:25] Yeah. Scot: [1:11:26] So Channel conflict what's going to happen there. Jason: [1:11:28] Yeah so there's some other interesting tidbits that will come to but like the the big concern about this whole thing is this is a Marketplace to me that has some unique characteristics that are distinct from most other marketplaces so you're obviously the marketplace Guru on our show if you think about a Marketplace like Amazon there's nearly an. In endless supply of potential sellers that could sell on Amazon right so you know Amazon treats them well enough, but if they have some churn and sellers if people feel like they're not making enough money selling Goods on Amazon Amazon doesn't sweat that too much because if they leave the platform some other seller is likely right behind them to win that by box there that is not the case in grocery because these Goods aren't coming from a warehouse they're not coming from a factory in China most of these goods are coming from the perishable shelves of a local grocer and there's only a finite number of those grocers in the United States of America so we're you know you could have kind of all these. [1:12:35] Arbitrageurs like becoming sellers on Amazon and you know any college kid could decide to start selling on Amazon tomorrow. You kind of have to already be a traditional grocer to become a seller on instacart and so the the pool of potential sellers is way more constrained and. Um I would argue that many of those sellers should not be on the instacart marketplace right because. In the early days of digital grocery you go oh man this is just a distraction we don't have a queer a good grocer but we don't have expertise in digital now we've got a few eating customers that want to order online but just Outsource this whole thing to instacart, and see if customers even want it and that that was a perfectly reasonable strategy and a lot of Grocers have obviously done that. But once you start seeing that oh my God customers really do want this and now it's 12 percent of our sales and it's trending towards twenty percent of our sales and it's more than half of their their total visits to our brand are now happening on that platform. [1:13:42] Do you want that to be a platform you out sourced that also any of your competitors can Outsource or do you want that to be some sort of. Owned competitive Advantage right and, I tell the story all the time so people are their eyes are probably rolling in the back of their head but this all played out in e-commerce right when, bookstores first started hearing about the people on to buy books online they said that's a distraction we should Outsource it what about that company in Seattle that's outsourced it to them. [1:14:11] And when they suddenly realize oh Outsourcing our book business dams on probably doesn't make a lot of sense. Which if you're a younger listener that really did happen toys Toys R Us and and Borders books like. Gave gave their their e-commerce businesses to Amazon, when you realize Amazon was a direct competitor then you found another service provider to Outsource it to and the outsourced provider that everyone found in the e-commerce industry was this company called GSI Commerce and they became. A very high valued fast running business founded by this guy Mark Rubin and you've probably heard of him because. He owns the Philadelphia 76ers on with the money he made from from GSI and he started in another very successful business fanatics but GSI was a tremendously. Successful business that kind of doesn't exist today because over time Toys R Us said you know we better learn how to, run our own e-commerce site and Dick's Sporting Goods said we need to learn how to run our own e-commerce site and targets that we need to learn how to run her own e-commerce site and so as that market matured, all those people that were happy to Outsource this nascent business to GSI fire GSI and brought that that. Function in-house and to me instacart feels a lot like the grocery version of GSI now. [1:15:39] One reason this isn't necessarily a doom story is GSI actually does still exist they've rebranded and they're called the radial and what they do today is they provide a lot of the backend services. That businesses use for e-commerce but they no longer provide the front end and they no longer provided under their own brand so they're sort of a white label service provider. And we haven't talked about it yet but but instacart actually has an extra Revenue stream that they talk about in their S1 that just isn't economically material yet which is, they're selling a bunch of services to retailers that want to do some or all of this, themselves and they white label a lot of the services and instacart is, trying to invest in making good versions of those services that they might be able to sell to a retailer that does decide, to bring the website in house or the picking in fulfillment in house. But so to me when I look at this business I go the number one risk is. [1:16:39] In the long run can they maintain the sellers that they have and if they can't it's not like there's an unlimited Supply to replace the current ones which is a very different Dynamic than. Then like the Amazon Marketplace and so one of the things you see that you know they claim they're very proud of in there. There s one is and I should have found this but what's the count of retailers they say. Scot: [1:17:09] 5700 it's just kind of pop that's the number two spot. Jason: [1:17:12] We'll call that the right number unless I find that number but that but that number of that's the number of resellers and those resellers have 80,000 stores in the US and represent 85% of all Grocers right so you look at that and go oh good news bad news. They've saturated the market they are they already have 85% of all grocers on their platform so they're not going to add a bunch of sellers but the seller but all the sellers will love them right that would be the. The favorable interpretation but the wrinkle here is. A bunch of the sellers that they're claiming have kind of already moved away from instacart right so included in the list of sellers on this Marketplace our Walmart. Kroger and Albertsons which cumulatively are the top three grocers in the market and I think together the three of them are over 50 percent of the market the. It's 1,400 retail banners. Scot: [1:18:14] For 200 yeah 5500 advertisers house I've got those. Jason: [1:18:17] That's what I was worried about yeah so so 1400 retail banners representing 80 thousand stores representing 85% of the US grocery Market but again today Walmart Kroger and Albertsons are in that. That list and those are all grocers that are investing huge amounts of money in building their own capability and today, that capability sits beside instacart or maybe in front of instacart and they're only using instacart as kind of overflow. But it's it's way less certain to me and there was not a lot of like. [1:18:54] You know confidence and stealing information in the s-1 to say oh we're going to be able to retain Kroger as a customer or we're going to be able to retain Albertsons as a customer and to me it's a big risk for their current business model. If they can't and a huge percent of those of the a huge portion of the eighty-five percent of the market share they're saying they have. Is those three companies and then after those three companies which have already expressed like clear intent to invest in their own capability there are other giant Grocers. That haven't expressed an interest but they need to write and so you and I'm specifically thinking of like all the in Costco are two huge grocers in the US. You know are not very digitally mature and have not seem to want to invest a lot of there. Their own resources in digital but if they're going to be around in 20 years I'm pretty confident that they're going to have to figure it out and it's not just going to be Outsourcing it to instacart so I look at a big chunk of those. Marketplace sellers on instacart and I go. Um that that is a little risky and you know a lot of their volume is probably concentrated in those sellers that are at risk and you go, is there a business if all the big guys leave and it's just all the Independent Grocers there might be but the economics probably look a lot different than this. Scot: [1:20:19] Very cool so you're going to are you going to be a buyer. Jason: [1:20:23] I am. [1:20:26] Yeah yeah yeah if I could have gotten in her like I would love to be at the 76 or games with my driven but I'm not sure that the retail price like has some risk cooked into it because of that that problem now again you know radials a decent little business and could could you know carrot services for instacart be a decent little business one day sure you know the counter argument if I'm trying to be fair here is. What I think in instacart exec would say is hey Jason like we had two things we're the Outsource capability for some of these retailers that don't have that capability but we're also. Marketplace with a bunch of loyal customers and we're bringing customers and visits to Kroger which is why Kroger isn't gonna fire us. [1:21:20] Right but prettier Point like. Really where are they getting those customers right like they're not you know they're not making huge investment in sales and marketing they haven't like you know demonstrated some magical top of funnel capability to acquire, in consumers like I would argue they're acquiring most of their primary acquisition strategy is to acquire great sellers that already have consumers and take over the that business for those those, those banners so that that to me puts this this whole thing at risk like is there something I'm missing about that Scott or does that at least. Scot: [1:21:56] It's a risk you know they would probably argue they have data that says they're largely in criminal and my guess is the Grocer's aren't sophisticated enough to be able to run an analysis on that so yeah, Walmart certainly is but not yeah you know gross has been right. Jason: [1:22:14] The long tail of. Pretty pretty pretty thin and pretty like grocery is a super hard business that requires a lot of unique capabilities and the people that you know, acquired those capabilities over 60 years are not necessarily the people you're going to expect to be the first fastest digital adopters and like side note in favor of all the hard-working Grocers out there I mean. It's the one business that Amazon has invested billions in and can't figure out how to do properly right so so it is what gentlemanly hard. I do, I did have a couple other tidbits on the if we're done talking about the giant elephant in the room that is their their seller concentration there were a couple other tidbits that jumped out at me in the ass one do you want to should we run down those real quick. Scot: [1:23:04] Yeah far away. Jason: [1:23:06] Yeah so there is another interesting part of the thing that I was surprised by which is instacart membership program so instacart has a membership program called instacart + and it turns out all this revenue is coming from members. Which again is another favorable Trend we saw that the cohort analysis was pretty favorable but. 57% of instacart Revenue comes from people that pay a monthly or annual fee to get free. Shipping from instacart so that are members of this instacart plus program and 5.1 million of the 7.7 million active Shoppers are in the program. [1:23:46] And those those members spend disproportionately more like over 6X more than non-members spend so this is like. You spend your your monthly fee or I think it's like a hundred dollars annually and for that you get unlimited Fleet free delivery. You get reduced service fees you get credit back on eligible pick up orders like if you if you do curbside pickup and you get some other exclusive benefits so. They have kind of monetized a membership program so you could think of this as a very baby Costco but that. If this all scales that's another potential interesting Revenue scheme. I did mention I was pretty excited they had to kind of make the pitch for digital Grocery and so. You know they do talk a lot about a groceries accelerated to 12%. Digital groceries accelerated 12 percent penetration that. [1:24:44] That has accelerated a lot in the last three years as a result of Cove Ed and they spend a lot of time talking about the distinction between. Delivery of groceries and pick up of groceries and instacart plays in both but here's kind of an interesting thing. [1:25:01] About it's a it's near 50/50 split right now the. Grab the delivery orders instacart is primarily competing with other digitally native digital Grocers so they're competing with. Um shipped which is owned by Target they're competing with doordash and ubereats which if you haven't been following it both have pivoted into grocery they're competing with go Puff. And so these are other like digitally native companies that kind of didn't exist in the space until until digital came along but the other half of the business is pick up. And 95% of all the pickup business is getting fulfilled by a traditional brick-and-mortar Grocery Store where the parking lot. And so like there is you know there are these like interesting bifurcated segments where. You know some of instacart Revenue they're competing against you know Amazon Uber and doordash and other parts of their business there. They're competing for customers against Walmart Kroger and Albertsons so I found that kind of a interesting evaluation. [1:26:13] You know again I think a lot of people might have been surprised and asked someone to see that they're competing with with Uber and doordash. [1:26:22] And then the other thing that I found interesting and this might be obligatory now but I think in instacart is case is kind of true they spent a fair amount of time talking about how they're leaning into a. And so they both you know we're very early adopters of like. Licensing open a eyes large language model to have a. In a i chat assistant on instacart app and website they were one of the they were launched partner that had a plug-in on opening eyes website to let you order order groceries from Chad CPT and they've done at least like for Acquisitions in the like AI in ableman space so they've acquired companies. Like Rosie which is AI pricing and dynamic pricing they acquired ever site which is a promotion engine the Caper food storm is a software company that. Doesn't like kiosk software that they can sell to retailers as part of their carrot services so. That I don't know you tell me why like I suspect that every S1 we do see for the next 18 months is going to have to have an AI section and it was interesting to read about like what they've done in the AI space. Scot: [1:27:47] Oh yeah everyone like yeah salesforce's spending all their time with this giant Matrix of how AI is getting integrated into every product everyone is trying to ride the wave but video is making all the money it's a they is off topic but they printed just incredible quarter of just nothing but. Jason: [1:28:04] Yeah way more valuable than Intel. Scot: [1:28:06] Billion of profit that just showed up at the door is crazy. Jason: [1:28:11] Yeah yeah that's a great story for another episode but Scott anything else that we want to cover in this first look at instacart S1. Scot: [1:28:22] Know our brand promise is to bring the heat on these and a deep dive this I lost track when we started but this is a very deep dive so we appreciate you guys sticking with us to the end there there was a lot of good stuff on here and we really only got to the tip of the iceberg. I do encourage you to print out the those relevant pages of this one we talked about 10 12 12 24 or 25 that's the really good stuff and it's worth a read if you're in the space into this Market as we are which I I'm going to guess a lot of you are also pretty geeky about this stuff. Jason: [1:28:57] Yeah yeah and so I will definitely put a link to the s-1 in there and until next time happy commercing.

EP308 - Amazon Q2 Earnings http://jasonandscot.com Amazon reported a strong quarter across the board for Q2, soundly exceeding analyst expectations and retail industry averages. In this episode we break down the 1p and 3p retail performance, AWS, and the Ads. We go into depth around Amazon disruption reorganization (to a regional model), Amazon's newest efforts in grocery, and health care. Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of GetSpiffy and Co-Founder of ChannelAdvisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing. Don't forget to like our facebook page, and if you enjoyed this episode please write us a review on itunes. Episode 308 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded on Thursday, August 4, 2023. Transcript Jason: [0:23] Welcome to the Jason and Scot show this is episode a 308 being recorded on Thursday August 3rd 2023 that's a lot of Threes I'm your host Jason retailgeek Goldberg and as usual I'm here with your co-host Scot Wingo. Scot: [0:40] Hey Jason and welcome back Jason and Scott showed listeners well Jason today is one of my four favorite days of the year it is Amazon earnings day. Jason: [0:51] I was going to guess it's the 4th Halloween okay. Scot: [0:54] Nope good guess and today was a real doozy so we have a lot to talk about and of course it wouldn't be a Jason and Scot show without. Jason: [1:05] Amazon news your margin is there opportunity. Scot: [1:18] That's right sometimes I hear from listeners why do you guys spend so much time talking about Amazon well my rationale is a it's one of my favorite subjects did be not only is Amazon the biggest retailer but it represents over half of e-commerce and for our listeners I think their data is pretty much the standard compared to even anything like comscore or adobe, just by definition of them having so much data that it is the basically the best source for what's going on and then given our macro environment we're at the tail end of the last show you were talking about how it's setting up for kind of a bad holiday so we're heading into this it's a critical quarter and for me Q to see what Amazon is done really sets us up for the back half of the year. And especially holiday. So kind of a canary in the coal mine and right now there's all this confusing data coming out about the consumer you see things that sentiment is down travel to starting to tip over housing is slowing so there's some negative but yet credit card spend is going pretty well and so this is probably the best read we're going to get on the consumer heading into holiday. [2:39] So I think of it as Scott foreshadowing the whole industry that's why we like to spend a lot of time on it, so the other thing I'll point out is it's been kind of a rough period for Amazon the last, probably 6/4 a day that things have slowed down post covid they've struggled they've done some layoffs but having watched Amazon if we zoom zoom out having followed them since 97 they're really good at reading the room and if the market and the externalities are saying you're free to invest they will invest like crazy and you know and by saying that I mean they'll focus on Revenue growth implementing infrastructure but then when the macro turns - and they can move to harvest pretty quickly so, a lot of that kind of goes as good as Wall Street so Wall Street will love them and give them a lot of rope and they'll invest invest invest and then while she starts to worry they're like oh my gosh this is scary your spending so much things are doing this and then they will turn very quickly and can then get into Harvest mode and produce results that's a really a big theme for this quarter so that's part of the set of the other part of the setup is we have some eCommerce data coming into this what is that, what are those tea leaves tell us before we jump into Amazon. Jason: [4:00] Yeah so we have data from the US Department of Commerce through June and it is a really complicated story so that the top line is a little bit of a worrisome sign so year-to-date January through June of this year retail sales are 1.9 percent higher than they were during that same period last year so time now to put that in perspective in the 10 years leading up to covid we average retail growth of 4% a year so so far this year the growth is less than half of the industry average and then the last three years of growth the last 3 years of Cook post covid were the biggest three years of retail growth in the history of retail so we had these three monster years and now for the first time we have a six month period That's, well off the average and, Q2 was worse than q1 now you know people always say well what about inflation in these numbers if you adjust all these numbers back to 2019 dollars to sort of take inflation out of it, retail sales this year are actually down 2.8 percent from last year so so. [5:15] All of the Mir growth we have this year is really due to its unusually high inflation now big caveat there, the information news is actually pretty solid in inflation in June is only up three percent year over year which. [5:32] You know before all this inflation stuff started the Fed was always trying to keep inflation between two point two and three percent so. [5:39] Information down and three percent if it if it stays down there is pretty encouraging but from a retail standpoint, you have this weird thing you have the macroeconomics getting better there's a lot more economists saying we're not going into a recession we somehow managed a soft Landing you've got the inflation numbers coming way down all the wages and employment numbers have continued to be robust so you're all these favorable macroeconomics and now the consumer has stopped spending and you hear every retail are talking about how, consumers are trading down a cheaper Goods they're buying more needs and less wants and all of these sorts of things and so. If you if you kind of look at the retail industry average. There are two retailers that have hit consistently been outperforming the industry average and those two retailers are Walmart and Amazon which are the two, largest retailers in the United States of America. Um there's some controversy over who's actually bigger but we'll leave that for another show if the bottom line is if the two biggest retailers in the market are both outperforming the industry average. That's a bad sign for the rest of the retailers. Scot: [6:54] Someone's losing share. Jason: [6:55] Exactly exactly and I would note we don't talk about it a ton on the show but then there's two Chinese companies that are. Dramatically grabbing share really quick so she and and and Tim ooh so you know outside of those four. It's not looking super up to Mystic for, for retail so I was super curious to hear not only how Amazon did but what they're what guidance they gave for Q3 and what they were seeing in terms of consumer spending because we do have this weird paradox. Macroeconomics getting better, but retail spending getting worse so that being said like what what did Amazon report Scott. Scot: [7:40] Well it's an interesting quarter because again for like the last six quarters are 18 months it's been kind of using Wall Street language Wall Street always comes in with expectations and then you either meet those beat them or miss them and or sometimes I'll call it in line if you meet their expectations well this was this was pretty much an unprecedented four-way beat with a raise and that's that last part is what about next quarter so the current quarter is did you how did you do and then did you for future Revenue expectations did you stay in line with those or did you raise them so this was kind of like one of the best quarters you can have using all the Wall Street language and I say a four way beat so number one is earnings per share, while she was expecting 35 cents and they handily beat that at 65 cents so that's the first one the second one is revenue revenue came in at 134 billion versus 131a clear beat. [8:41] AWS Revenue there was a lot of worry around this because Microsoft was really showing their first of all Microsoft had to break out as your separately for the first time and it used to be all clumped in together in this kind of cloud bucket, where they could kind of have office they're hiding what was going on with Azure so now that Microsoft had to call, carve out Azure it has been slowing down very dramatically so everyone was very worried about that a WS beat the expectation was 21.8 and they came in at 22. I will talk a little bit more about the growth things and some other color there third-party exceeded expectation the only thing that was really kind of in line is online store Revenue but the margin improvements if you can't go back to that EPS were so dramatic that everyone was fine with Alan being I think it was like. [9:30] Point two percent miss or something it was like basically in line so that was the only piece that didn't beat and everyone was fine with that because all these other things really swamped the outcome there and then to cap that off the midpoint we'll talk about it but this represents about 11% growth all in for this quarter and the next quarter they guide for growth for 11 to 13 so they're basically saying hey we beat your expectations this quarter and things are accelerating into Q3 so and then they also on the bottom line that guided up for next quarter as well so that went really really well um and that was a pretty amazing so let's peel the onion and see what we can learn you want to take us through the retail business. Jason: [10:18] Yeah for sure so the the retail business globally grew 11% so that last year this in this quarter they grew nine percent so accelerated growth, North America grew 11 per sent an international grew ten percent International really struggle this time last year they actually had a 12% decline last year and so so in general pretty robust growth now, these are the revenue numbers which returned mine everyone Amazons and Marketplace they don't report all of their sales as Revenue they only report, one piece sales and then the fees they earn on 3-piece sales so it's not it's not a perfect. [11:09] Now match to to the sort of Industry retail data I said but it's a close approximation so, on average retail grows four percent a quarter the last two quarters retails grown you know less than half of that and Amazon comes in at 10 or 11 percent growth. So that's you know a pretty healthy outperforming that the industry average is and, you're essentially taking share from the rest of retail now often just a side note. Obviously the vast majority of Amazon sales are online traditionally online grows much faster than. [11:48] Brick and mortar so historically we would see ten to fifteen percent online sales but post pandemic that's actually slowed down quite a bit and so, online sales this year are probably averaging around. Seven and a half our eight percent and so Amazon's growth not only did it beat brick-and-mortar it actually beat the industry average, even for e-commerce so that that is very robust, they spent a lot of time both in their their press release and also in their earnings call talking about their focus on efficiencies, and you know the all the work and efficiencies reorganization of their supply chain you know changing of Labor models, that those others efficiencies are starting to bear fruit because, the profitability was significantly up for. [12:52] For the retail business for this segment so I want to say no for North America they ended up earning like 3.2 billion and earn income. So you know some quarters they don't learn any so 3.2 is a healthy number. [13:10] For their growth and for people that aren't following it. Part of these efficiencies is a super interesting story essentially what Amazon has decided and what they now seem to have successfully executed is that having a national Supply. [13:27] Chain and a national order fulfillment network is not the right way to structure themselves so in the old world they had one order fulfillment system that covered the whole nation you could really want some, delicious Green Tea Oreos you know that are only in the warehouse in California and you order those and Amazon figures out had a, get those Oreos to you in 2 days from the warehouse in California, and increasingly what Amazon said is you know customers really want speed we have to get faster in most cases where promising next day or same day to day is. Is you know a promise from 10 years ago and in order to do that efficiency efficiently and save money, we have to have those Green Tea Oreos really close to Scott to start things off and so we're going to drop a bomb on our own industry-leading fulfillment Network and we're going to redesign it as a set of regional networks so that the vast majority of good Scott orders come from a much shorter distance and so one of the, the impressive results of that effort today is this quarter Amazon said that like despite all this growth and increasing order volumes that they actually drove 20% less miles than they did this quarter last year. [14:42] So they're very successfully getting the goods, closer to the consumer and to put you in put it in perspective how many Goods that is they announced that they now have over 300 million, items that are eligible for Amazon Prime and over fifty percent of those items get delivered same day or next day. Scot: [15:07] Yeah I thought that part was pretty amazing and what they've done is they've split the country into eight regions they actually were pretty and the call to get into some pretty interesting detail on this end and I thought that was interesting because I usually pretty pretty tight-lipped on this so then so they've taken their National optimization you talked about and they're almost running each region has its own country so they're doing more of the load balancing inside of there so in addition to the 20 percent fewer miles there touching the packages 20% less and you now get 76 percent of the units are in the union are in the region and just a while ago it was 66. [15:50] And then what he's what he's basically saying is that's a big efficiency and then within there another efficiency is they're leveraging the same day where houses so things used to go from these really big distribution centers to the smaller ones and now we're going to these much smaller ones and they can now inject things in there and he said those are streamlined and they can get an item from the order coming in to delivery in as little as 11 minutes and those are even closer to the consumer so that it's almost he didn't say this but I kind of envisioned as eight regions are split up into eight more regions almost with these tiny you know within points being some of these other ones they basically said this is working so well we're going to double the number of these small last-mile fulfillment centers so that was I don't think Wall Street heard that because that's you know whenever Amazon says double that's a big number because they have like 200 ish of the big fulfillment centers I don't know how many small ones are but Amazon doubling anything is Nan. [16:55] Trivial number of dollars they're going to invest you didn't say over what time period you want your when ordering covid they said they were double and they went from like 120 fulfillment centers took to actually literally doubled those pretty quickly so it's going to be interesting to watch that build-out I haven't seen one of those I've seen them Beck's I haven't been in one of been on the back end of one to watch the flex drivers that that's kind of what they used to do for Flex drivers so be interesting to see how they scale that and I would like to go got a visit one I don't I don't know if any of the dsps which spend a lot of time with dsps here at spiffy so I've got to see this side of the world a lot more than I did in the software e-commerce world and there at the big fulfillment centers at these delivery stations that are called bolted on the side haven't seen how they pick up from some of these but I'm making it a mission. Learn more about this. Jason: [17:48] Dsps are the third party delivery services that Amazon uses yeah. Scot: [17:52] Delivery service professionals yeah so that was interesting. Jason: [17:57] And a reminder for the big fulfillment centers Amazon actually offers tours you can sign up and get a tour I don't think they haven't seen them ever offer tours on any of the other formats but there are some bootleg videos out on the internet if you know where to look I'll see if I can find some for the show notes that that show like like one of the general contractors that builds these facilities put some videos on their website of, of the finished facilities before they open. Scot: [18:28] Yep so that's kind of the retail business let's mix it up usually I cover third party but let's kick it over you to run through them. Jason: [18:37] Yeah are you okay with me talking about marketplaces I feel like as a Hall of Fame member you you this is like when mess a wet the other guy take the penalty kick. Scot: [18:45] I'm an auto guy now I don't know what this what is a 3 P3 what are the three p's. Jason: [18:51] Yeah so another milestone for Amazon's Marketplace. They hit a new high for the percentage of their total sales that came from third parties so the mix is now 60% third parties 40% first party so that that's continuing along long-standing trend. The third party is continuing to grow and being the most important part of the. The assortment makes at Amazon I don't have the number in front of me but my memory is that the. The growth in 3p Services was actually faster than the retail growth as well so sort of implies that the volume went up but also Amazons. Doing even better at collecting more fees from all those three p providers so that the marketplace continues to be robust and important. You know one that always gets a lot of the energy on these earnings calls is a WS and there's kind of an interesting story going going on so so first of all, the the Wall Street expectation was for AWS to grow eight percent this quarter and they announced that a WS grew 12% so. Massive beat from that perspective. Um and so then you go well is 12% good growth well a year ago they were growing at like 33 percent so twelve percent doesn't sound all that impressive compared to 33 percent. But what you have to remember is. [20:20] The rate of growth has been significantly slowing down quarter after quarter and last quarter q1. [20:27] That growth was 16 percent and when they announced that growth was 16%, they really put dosed a bunch of cold water on investors because they said and we already have a month of data since the end of that quarter and it's slowed down more since then so I think that really is what spooked. The the investor community and that's where that sort of 8% expectation came from so 12 percent growth is kind of an indication that the growth rate although you know swelling down is stabilizing. Um and I think they're they don't give guidance on these individual segments but they. Made a nod to the fact that we're probably not going to see the growth rate slowed down dramatically from this, they do pay a lot of lip service to the fact that, it's a very big number and you can't grow in double digits anymore by just getting organic growth that like in order to, continue to grow double digits you need to acquire a lot of net new customers and you need to acquire a lot of net new workloads, but the good news is you know they have a very robust narrative about why there are a lot of customers and additional workloads to acquire and spoiler alert. You know a huge amount of them are related to generative Ai and a large language models where. [21:54] Amazon is investing a lot in things a lot of the future is going to be in these these three hosted layers of AI services that companies use to build AI Solutions on top. [22:06] So so you know I think their sales focus is going to be is less about getting more money from existing customers and more about getting. New customers and new workloads on a go-forward basis for a WS, um I do want to say you add up the numbers for AWS and it's 88 billion dollar a year business that's the Run rate right now. And they make about 25 percent gross margin on that business so that that 88 billion dollar business is spinning off 21 billion dollars a year in profit. And everyone always talks about how AWS is by far the most profitable business at Amazon so keep that 21 billion dollar number in the back of your head because the next segment that Amazon talked about is ads, and while AWS is growing at 12% they announced that the ad business is growing at 22 percent. Um so that puts, the the ad business at like a 41 42 billion dollar run rate. And that the speculation is that the ad business is about a 75% gross margin. Business and so if they're at a 41 billion dollar run rate that means they're spinning off 30 billion dollars in profit. [23:25] For the ads business so Thirty 1 billion dollars in earning come from ads versus 22 billion dollars in. Or 21 billion dollars in profit from AWS so. Quit talking about a WS being the most profitable business than Amazon ads is the most profitable business and is growing almost twice as fast. And there's another of my favorite facts about that ad business is. You know so again they're selling 44 billion dollars worth of ads you know where they get all the eyeballs that they they have to sell those ads. [24:03] Buy them from Google for 20 billion dollars. So so here's like an awesome business, the Amazon is one of the largest advertisers in the world they spend twenty billion dollars I'm sorry 22 billion dollars on ads to get people to come to all their services, and consume them for profit right so, so you run ads and you get people to buy stuff on Amazon you run ads and you get people to sign up for AWS you run ads and you get people to sign up for Amazon Prime Those ads do all this heavy lifting for all these different business units and then after you've monetize that, that a dollar you then sell that ad dollar back for a profit through this ad business so you want to talk about the network effect and how powerful it is this to me is just an an awesome example of business engineering and you know I think. Often misunderstood aspect of the Amazon profit machine. Scot: [25:01] Yes pretty amazing quarter for ads the they're just really Trout's snap used to be in the conversation and Twitter and it's really just Facebook Google and it was on it. Jason: [25:11] I mean Amazon's a much bigger ad business than Microsoft and Bing. Scot: [25:15] Absolutely another tidbit from the call we had talked about this and if you remember we had we had a guest on from Guardian baseball and he was talking about this was right one by with prime came out and you were super skeptical that anyone would adopt. Jason: [25:35] Yeah and what should you do anytime I'm skeptical about a new idea. Scot: [25:39] Go long on it go. Jason: [25:40] Invest in it. Scot: [25:41] Yeah. So first of all I saw a tweet earlier and this is from everyone's favorite follow bearded egg F ba and a couple other people had similar tweets but he actually had used the software that scrapes all these websites, and he reported there's over 2,200 sites that now have by with Prime and then jassi's comments he said quote, merchants in early trials use by both Prime saw their Shopper conversion increased 25% on average which makes a real difference in their business Merchants who participated in Prime Day activities, experience 10x increase in Daily by with prime orders, so there was a knock on effect that if you had by the Prime on your website then people found you and and rattled over and you saw a really nice kind of ripple effect from the prime day efforts I thought that was an interesting tidbit so they're like like everything Amazon and I haven't followed the features but I'm sure if you remember Matt was complaining that you couldn't turn it on and off for certain excuse there was some feedback he had and maybe it didn't work with attributes like a parent-child skews I'm sure they fix all that or else it wouldn't be on this mini website so it sounds like that's really getting some some traction. Jason: [27:00] Yeah I do I still think. To cite Lira but my double down on my earlier skepticism there still are some rough edges to the customer experience right so it still is a purse Q experience which is a little weird like you know some products on the on the website you can get fast shipping for and some, some products you can't and it's hard to know what they are until you put them in your cart so that's kind of the the old shop Runner. [27:32] For if you will but I do want to say two things both Amazon and Shopify are leaning into these, conversion rates way better when you have by with Prime on your website or when you have shop pay on your website and you know you have to ask yourself what they're comparing that to write because, it should surprise no one that conversion rate when the customer has stored payment information available is much higher than when they don't have stored payment information so the magic question is if you already had shop, pay and PayPal on your site and then you added by with prime did by with prime perform 25% better than PayPal. Um or are they only saying by with prime prefer performs better than nothing because performing better than nothing isn't, quite as impressive in my book and I do want to say well well they are making progress with by with Prime and the 2500, Merchants is impressive just a reminder there's 2.5 million merchants on Amazon so the fact that 2,500 of them are using it you know does not exactly mean it's caught fire. Scot: [28:44] So still skeptical. Jason: [28:46] Yes so again what should you do go double down on the go along. Scot: [28:49] Short Amazon Jason you short Amazon I'll go alone. Jason: [28:54] Yeah that. Scot: [28:55] Prime is not going to work thesis and I'll go on. Jason: [28:58] Yes I don't I don't think you're giving me helpful investment advice. So that was all the main stuff I saw in the earnings calls was there anything else you wanted to cover because I think there is a few other tidbits of Amazon news. Scot: [29:15] I saw Grocery and I had a feeling that your ears were too perked up I I fell asleep during that part so I'll kick it over to you. Jason: [29:21] Oh my god do you not eat. Scot: [29:23] I do but groceries is everyone's least favorite chore. Jason: [29:28] Scot doesn't want to say it but he has people that get his groceries for him that's what's going on here he hasn't been to a grocery store in like 10 years. Scot: [29:35] Every every meal is from Chick-fil-A so I don't have to go through. Jason: [29:37] That seems like it would be a pretty fun for a little while but I have a feeling that the there would wear off, so yes Scott you are right I'm super interested in grocery groceries 25 percent of all retail spending it's the biggest category of spending that Amazon hasn't won, I think it was about 40 years ago that they acquired Whole Foods do I have that right was it 40 years ago. Scot: [30:03] 49 Jason: [30:05] I'm exaggerating I was over 10 years ago now though. That they bought at Whole Foods and hopefully just kind of flat since they acquired them it really hasn't you know turned in anything a reminder Whole Foods is very niche in the grocery space like Whole Foods doesn't sell Coke they don't sell Fritos, um and they're only in a handful of big cities so there the the industry leader in organic produce but they're not a mainstream. And one of the things so Amazon made a bunch of announcements that they were retooling their grocery experience and changing some of their offerings. Two days before the earnings call. And I'll come back to what those announcements were but on the earnings call Andy answered some questions about Grocery and he kind of admitted something interesting, Amazon is doing very well at what Amazon usually calls everyday essentials. And I think the Brian the CFO call that non-climate controlled Goods right so all these shelf-stable things that you tend to buy from a grocery store but you don't actually eat. Um Amazon's pretty good at selling and growing fast and they have a big chunk of that business they are not good at selling. [31:21] Perishables they're not good at Selling climate-controlled Stuff they're not good at selling fresh food online. Um and what Andy said in answer to one of the analysts questions was, to really meaningfully capture sharing grocery you have to have a broad offering in all the areas of grocery not just the everyday essentials and we don't believe you can win. With a broad assortment of groceries without a national footprint of stores. [31:53] So you know he kind of conceded that the Fulfillment center model and the multi-tiered regional Warehouse model that Amazon is building out. Is not particularly well suited for the grocery mix and so he said so you know we need to figure out a grocery, and we kind of concluded what we've rolled out over the last few years at Amazon Fresh is not a winning grocery concept so we put we put a hold on growth, we went back to the drawing board we invented a bunch of new experiences and now we're testing those new experiences to see if they are, more appealing to Consumers so the First Market to get these new experiences is Chicago so they just remodeled the the Amazon Fresh stores here in Chicago I'm going to go visit one soon. But they've essentially they've changed the assortment quite a bit they've added more private label and they've added more National brands for a grocery store Amazon Fresh doors were really kind of a limited assortment grocery store and so it sounds like. [32:56] They're moving they didn't say numbers but in my mind, they were like a twelve thousand SQ grocer and Kroger is like a 20,000 SQ grocer so they're there it sounds like they're moving up to that 20,000 skus. [33:10] And they're testing a bunch of new amenities, and one of the big problems you have in grocery especially when consumers are being really cost-conscious is consumers walk into a grocery store with a budget and they want to make sure they don't overspend that budget. And just walk out grocery stores you actually don't find out how much you spent until 15 minutes after you've left the store. [33:35] Which is an awful experience if you're trying to make sure you stay under 100 dollars. And so one of the amenities they've rolled out is on these Dash cards these digital cards that they let you use in the store they now have a real time running total of what's in your cart so for the first time you can see. [33:53] You know how much you spent so there's a bunch of experiences like that I'll get a better feel for what the new ones are. When I go visit but they're starting to Pilot new grocery Concepts and they're you know they've kind of conceded that they need to scale one of these brick-and-mortar Concepts nationally before they can really be a. A meaningful winner in the digital grocery space. But they made a couple other big changes in grocery to one of the biggest complaints and one of the stupidest things about Amazon's grocery is before you shop for groceries in Amazon you need to get an org chart and understand how Amazon's organized because, you have to decide in advance if you're shopping online at Whole Foods or Amazon Fresh and guess what most customers don't understand the distinction between those two things, and so they had separate carts you actually have three cards on the Amazon website you have a general merchandise Encarta gross Amazon Fresh cart and a Whole Foods car, and it can be really confusing because you just click add to cart on a bunch of stuff and then you go look at your cart and it's not there because it's in one of the other car. So they announced that they're moving to a universal cart. I haven't seen it yet so I can't speak to exactly what it looks like I have a few a name mean a universal grocery cart I don't think they're actually going to mix it in with general merchandise but. [35:11] Will be eager to see that and then the other announcement they made that is I'm not I mean I just don't think it's as big a deal is, um they have opened up grocery delivery from Amazon Fresh to non-prime members so so prior to this week you had to be a prompt Amazon prime number to order from from Amazon Fresh. And this is kind of interesting because this is a further erosion of Amazon Prime benefits you used to get free delivery, um with Amazon Prime for groceries and about a year ago Amazon caved to try to get more profit, and they added a delivery fee even if you're a Prime member but they said you can only get delivery of your Prime member now they're they're taking that benefit off the scale and I just point that out because. Amazon's ordinarily so good at adding new benefits to Prime is kind of rare to see them taking benefits away from Prime so I think that's interesting in the. The grocery space anything else that I missed or the jumped out at you about grocery Scott. Scot: [36:13] No I thought it was you know. A lot of people would expect him to throw in the towel because they've closed some of these physical store experiments and Jesse did that but they still seem committed to grocery at least the four star or what was that start. Jason: [36:30] Yeah five star. Scot: [36:31] Faster that is the closed all those right. And the trimming back the just walk out stores so it's interesting to see that there they they see something in grocery or it's just such a big tan they feel like they have to obviously they have Whole Foods but. Jason: [36:50] Yeah I do think it's one of one of their big bets and it was interesting like in some of the narrative Andy kind of he threw something at the grocery teams under the bus. You know like a lot of his complaints about the Amazon Fresh stores is he's like we just weren't good grocery operators that like are. Our inputs as he called it just weren't good like the the inventory turns the, you know the inventory waste the labor cost that you know all those things weren't where they needed to be to be a competitive grocery store and there's I'm sure a lot of traditional grocers that were listening to this call going amen Andy we told you groceries are really brutal, difficult Cutthroat business and you won't find it as easy as some of the other businesses you've dominated so, I still want to bet against Amazon I still think they're ultimately going to be a big player in grocery but. [37:53] And then one other to me really interesting tidbit is Healthcare that Amazon announced last week a new National Healthcare offering which is telemedicine. Um service and that's attached to Amazon Pharmacy. Um so this used to be an in-house experiment that they use to provide health benefits to a bunch of Amazon employees but and then they started offering it to. You know a few other employers that they had Healthcare agreements with, but now they've made it a national authoring that's available to everyone so you know if you if you need some prescription or you need some some medical advice and you don't want to go in and see a doctor you can't get an appointment. You can you do now use this Amazon Health Service to get a fast and easy. Um Health Care visit so you know we know Amazon has been kind of. Kicking the tires on the healthcare industry and they've had a couple initiatives they had some Partnerships that they walked away from, but there's another one where it seems like they haven't given up on the space and they're still you know rolling out and trying new things. Scot: [39:08] Yeah and I hope they nail this because my my experience with the physical drugstores always terrible. Jason: [39:17] Yeah I am not bullish on physical drug stores so again. You you know oil listeners now know what they should do for the investment there but like. You know the drug business used to be a retail business you walked into a pharmacy and you got all your prescriptions today the insurance companies mostly try to force you to use mail order. Pharmacy said the main reason people had to go to. Pharmacies has kind of gone away and as a retailer if you don't have to go there to get a farm prescription filled. The retail drug stores are awful retailers like they, you know they don't have a good assortment they don't have a good prize they're they're deficient in digital in and if you watch all the moves they're making, the thing that every retail drugstore is trying to do more than anything else is get out of retail and become a Healthcare company and own an insurance. So you know a lot of the CEOs of these companies now come from the insurance sides of the business and it it just doesn't seem like. The long-term future of us retail is to have you know multiple big National drug stores because the model is kind of waning. Scot: [40:28] Yeah yeah we'll I'll shut a small tear when they all go out of business and I can get things more efficient. Jason: [40:36] Yeah I think at least one is going to have to survive because there are a lot of impromptu emergency get it right now kind of kind of needs but you know maybe down the road we'll do a grocery in Pharmacy Deep dive. Scot: [40:50] Or Amazon will have things so close to you can get it in 15 minutes so you won't miss it. Jason: [40:55] Yeah you know one thing I will say like I thought you were going to say I won't feel bad if Amazon sells this because Healthcare in America. Royally screwed and a lot of people you know don't have in can't afford access to it so certainly it would be good if they fix that I will say Amazon rule that a service similar to a Walmart service which is really beneficial, they're now offering generic versions of most chronic prescriptions for a flat five dollar fee and so one thing that has approved a lot in the United States in the last two years. Between Walmart and Amazon and actually like a big startup that Mark Cuban is running is a lot of these. You know prescriptions that were Out Of Reach for a lot of low-income people are becoming more affordable which is certainly a good thing. Scot: [41:40] Yeah yeah we'll take care of them but I'd need my experience you better too. Jason: [41:44] See how I found a way to end the show on a happy note. Scot: [41:47] Yeah World Peace. Jason: [41:50] Yeah and that you know last week we had a slightly shorter show and listeners told this they loved getting a little bit less of us and so miraculously we have done it again we brought in a voluminous Amazon earnings call in a pithy 41 minutes, so if you'd like to reward us for our brevity the best way to do that would be to jump on iTunes and give us that five-star review. Scot: [42:14] Thanks everyone we hope you enjoyed this Amazon Q2 earnings results and until next time. Jason: [42:21] Happy Commercing.