

The Art of Product
Ben Orenstein and Derrick Reimer
The Art of Product is a podcast chronicling the journeys of two entrepreneurs building software companies. Hosted by Ben Orenstein and Derrick Reimer.
Episodes
Mentioned books

Oct 19, 2017 • 24min
20: The Ups and Downs of Working From the Road
Ben is set to launch his course and is using the looming deadline as an efficiency booster. He recently spoke at Rocky Mountain Ruby, and spent time prepping the talk with a friend at a beach house but unfortunately lost his data due to a hardware malfunction. The talk was still a great success, but a very stressful experience. The next week he spoke at Southeast Ruby in Nashville and it was a much smoother experience. Otherwise he is finishing up launch strategy details and looking forward to shipping the project.
Drip.com is now live after a long process, and the Drip team is thrilled. Derrick has also found an opportunity to use Elm at Drip, and is looking forward to implementing it in a new project he can’t yet discuss. Drip is currently looking for a front-end engineer in the Minneapolis area, with Elm experience if possible. Derrick has been travelling recently and even had a flight cancelled due to the California wildfires.
Today’s Topics Include:
Deadline pressure and work efficiency
Ben’s recent speaking engagements
Last minute details for Ben’s course release
Time-pressure and discount strategies for launch
Drip.com domain acquisition
Elm programming language
If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in iTunes.
Links and resources:
How we structure our work and teams at Basecamp by Jason Fried
Elm
RefactoringRails.io
Drip

Oct 12, 2017 • 31min
19: Gourmet Ruby with Avdi Grimm
This week Ben Orenstein is interviewing guest Avdi Grimm, Founder of RubyTapas, which is a subscription service that provides screencasts of “gourmet” ruby programming. Avdi discusses the topic of his talk at Southeast Ruby in Nashville, which was the value of avoiding code and strategies to bypass the need to write unnecessary coding. Join us as he shares his advice on optimizing workflows and his experiences building RubyTapas.
Today’s Topics Include:
The value of avoiding code
Hidden complexity in building out content platforms
Using Wordpress for publishing content
Code as a liability
Episode production and future of RubyTapas
Finding leverage in business and creative work
Delegating workflows
Views on side-hustling and product development
If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in iTunes.
Links and resources:
RubyTapas
WordPress
Spacemacs, Emacs, Vim, Neovim
Side-hustle mindset versus product-business mindset by Avdi Grimm
Avdi.codes
VirtuousCode.com
RefactoringRails.io

Sep 28, 2017 • 27min
18: Preparing for Black Friday
Ben has finalized the logo for his Refactoring Rails course and is currently getting the intro/outro animations and the sales site designed. He also finished the notes for all the videos and was very pleased with the final edit quality. The launch date for RefactoringRails.io is October 16th, 2017. He is still considering options for his post-launch speaking tour.
At Drip, Derrick is deep in the backend scaling challenges with a lot of attention towards Black Friday for their ecommerce customers. They are looking to historical data in order to anticipate peak volumes and simulate high loads. One particular initiative they’re working on is “fair queuing” to improve Drip’s user experience under periods of high load.
Today’s Topics Include:
Refactoring Rails course development
Scaling challenges and Black Friday volume
High-load simulations
Amazon auto-scaling groups
Fair queuing
Open source libraries
If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in iTunes.
Links and resources:
Elm
Boston Elm Meetup
Refactoring Rails course logo
Gumroad
Rocky Mountain Ruby
GraphQL
Narro.co
Drip
RefactoringRails.io

Sep 21, 2017 • 33min
17: Launch Planning and Speaking at Conferences
Ben is coming back from a restorative vacation in Martha’s Vineyard and loves the vibe there. He is enjoying his Vitamix blender and the Dr. Rhonda Patrick micronutrient smoothie. In Refactoring Rails news, Ben is committing to a launch date of October 16th. He is also scheduled to speak at three different conferences before the launch, and is looking forward to the challenge. He got feedback regarding a premium course tier, and is weighing his options on developing these materials. He has a proposal for the design element work and is close to wrapping up on the content.
Derrick attended ElixirConf in Seattle and now feels more confident to use the language in Drip in the future. He’s feeling the pain of running a large Ruby application and is looking for a higher power language. They are heading into using auto-scaling groups and other ways of optimizing the system. He was also interested in the code formatter that Elixir is developing.
Today’s Topics Include:
Health and nutrition in smoothies
ElixirConf and the state of the Elixir language
Erlang Programming language
Scaling Drip, speed and hosting costs
Code formatters
Launch of Refactoring Rails
Premium tier survey and material options
Hiring a designer for the course graphics
Ben’s upcoming speaking engagements: Rocky Mountain Ruby, Southeast Ruby Conference and Boulder Ruby Group
If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in iTunes.
Links and resources:
Vitamix Blenders
Dr. Rhonda Patrick micronutrient smoothie
ElixirConf
Elixir
Erlang
Rocky Mountain Ruby
Southeast Ruby
Boulder Ruby Group
Drip
RefactoringRails.io

Sep 7, 2017 • 45min
16: Going Viral and Customer Driven Products
Ben and Derrick are back from vacation this week are feeling refreshed. Ben tweeted something that went viral and has dealt with some people’s misinterpretation and bias. He is working on hiring a designer for some of the course finishing touches and is honing in on the premium tier offerings. Ben also has two side projects, Briefs and Trail Mix, that he is thinking of doing a tour about. RefactoringRails.io is set to launch the end of September.
Drip has been onboarding a new developer onto the core-product team and Derrick discusses his interview and hiring process. He also shares how Drip is doing as a customer-driven product team, inspired by David Cancel’s top ten criteria in a recent Conversion Cast episode.
Today’s Topics Include:
Going viral and dealing with public reaction
Ben’s side projects, Briefs and Trail Mix
Finishing and preparing to launch Ben’s course RefactoringRails.io
Hiring process at Drip
Allocating time for housekeeping tasks to avoid ‘noise’
David Cancel’s top ten items to determine if you’re doing well in a customer-driven product team
If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in iTunes.
Links and resources:
RefactoringRails.io
Briefs
Drip
Conversion Cast - Episode with David Cancel
Drift

Aug 31, 2017 • 7min
15: Lessons in Scaling SaaS
This week Ben is on vacation and Derrick is here to share some fresh knowledge behind the scenes at Drip. They’re experimenting at Drip with how to scale the system to handle more customers and what changes are needed to make the architecture support all their customers and future large customers in the sales pipeline. Derrick goes over his team’s recent brainstorming session and plans to repeat the exercise for more subsystems at Drip.
Today’s Topics Include:
The many seasons of scaling a SaaS business
Starting with simplistic architecture
Arriving at bottlenecks and incremental evolution of the system
How to have brainstorming sessions with engineers
Reevaluating assumptions and tradeoffs
If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in iTunes.
Links and resources:
Drip

Aug 24, 2017 • 42min
14: The Power of Simplicity
This week Ben has been managing his projects and to-do list with OmniFocus, which helps as his business and stress level continue to increase. He has outlined and will be recording his last video about form objects and is glad to be approaching the finish line on the course. He also experimented with adding a Call to Action button in his emails but wants to get more data comparing metrics to get the best strategy with different email clients.
Derrick has been in the trenches working on scaling Drip this week by strategizing on architecture with the backend team. They have onboarded one of their biggest customers and are working with them to segment and filter subscribers to be more efficient. He discussed the importance of legacy code base and how it is re-invented and improved over time. While their backend has become more complicated and fast-paced, he and his team are committed to keeping high quality and continue shipping things out quickly.
Today’s Topics Include:
Working around a schedule and dealing with notifications
Email data metrics and call to action tests
Scaling backend architecture
Brain-dumping to address issues
Defining legacy in a code base and continuous re-evaluation
Consistency in a code base
Moving fast and increasing complexity while maintaining high quality
If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in iTunes.
Links and resources:
RefactoringRails.io
Drip
Omnifocus
Pocket
Final Cut Pro
Github
AdBlock

Aug 17, 2017 • 33min
13: Crossing the Chasm
This past week Ben has hit a mental slump in the final phase of his course. However, he is moving through it and will be recording another video today towards the new final goal of 8 total course videos. He is tentatively scheduling the course launch for the first week of September. He has also scheduled his first Meetup event of his tour, on September 13th at the Atlanta Ruby Users Group.
Derrick brings up a recent Giant Robots podcast episode with Seth Godin, which talks about the dips experienced in business, “crossing the chasm” by moving from innovators into the mass market, and the personal transparency of the host Chad Pytel. Derrick relates what he heard to the phase Drip is in at the moment, and where he wants it and himself to go in the future.
Today’s Topics Include:
Finishing a project and psychological momentum
Ben’s Ruby Meetup tour and launch sequence
Giant Robots podcast episode with Seth Godin
Being real and transparent as a podcaster
Reflecting on business and choosing what market you want to serve
Drip’s current stage and market
Deciding the way you want to work while growing a company
Innovation versus mass market
Admin and internal dev tools
If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in iTunes.
Links and resources:
RefactoringRails.io
Drip
Atlanta Ruby Users Group
Giant Robots podcast Seth Godin Episode
Thoughtbot
Crossing the Chasm by Geoffrey Moore
Scaling SaaS

Aug 10, 2017 • 39min
12: Free Trials and Live Streaming Video Lessons
This week Ben discusses his experiment live-streaming a practice recording of his next video. He received helpful feedback and saw a spike in email subscribers, so it was very successful. He now has six videos done in the course and is considering a multiple tiered pricing model for his course release. On a personal note he has decided to move from his apartment in downtown Boston and will soon relocate to a hip area outside of the city. His goal this month is to finish and launch the course before the move and start his Meetup tour in September.
Derrick has been working on the Drip free trial to help clarify the product plans. He debated split testing this move, but in talking to his team they decided to just go for it. There was a bit of user confusion during the onboarding workflow for the free plan so this should clear things up. On the backend, this week the team is upgrading to Rails 5 and working to replace Capistrano with Amazon’s CodeDeploy. Derrick is also reviewing his code review processes and Ben weighs in on his thoughts on this problem.
Today’s Topics Include:
Regular yoga practice and posture
Ben’s live-stream experience and results
Relocating living space and minimalist lifestyles
Multiple tiered course pricing models
Changes to the Drip free trial program
Keeping up with Rails versions
Amazon CodeDeploy
Code review processes
If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in iTunes.
Links and resources:
RefactoringRails.io
Drip
Twitch
Ruby on Rails
Capistrano
Amazon CodeDeploy
Heruko

Aug 3, 2017 • 33min
11: The Founders Dilemma
Derrick is coming back from a much-needed vacation in San Francisco and enjoyed walking tours thanks to the Detour app. He returns refreshed and was able to get back into the swing of things and even into his yoga classes. It was also officially announced this week that Clay Collins, Founder and CEO of LeadPages is stepping down and will be replaced by former COO John Tedesco. Clay had a great amount of self-awareness in his announcement and this brings up the topic of The Founder’s Dilemma and best management practices for startups.
Last week Ben published a new sample course video on speeding up slow test suites. He is improving his recording and editing processes using Final Cut Pro. He is now working on the fifth video and nearing the halfway point on the course. He is also going to try live streaming the practice run of his next video and incorporating early feedback into the final recording. To market the course, he is looking forward to traveling the country and speaking at Ruby meetups.
Today’s Topics Include:
Taking real vacations and disconnecting from work in order to recharge
The restorative power of yoga
Company history and leadership changes at Leadpages
The Founder’s Dilemma and knowing what you are optimizing for
Freedom, wealth and ambition as a startup founder
Outsourcing and the value of having a personal assistant
Video editing processes, software and live streaming
Ruby meetup tours as a marketing tool
If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in iTunes.
Links and resources:
RefactoringRails.io
Drip
Detour - guided walking tour app
Leadpages
The Founder’s Dilemma by Noam Wasserman
Rich vs. King in the Real World: Why I sold my company by Jason Cohen
Don’t Build a Business Because You Want Freedom by Jeff Goins
Startups for the Rest of Us podcast
Final Cut Pro