Product Hunt Radio

On this episode Ryan is joined by a friend, writer, and student of human psychology, Nir Eyal. I’ve learned so much from his writing over the years. He has an incredible ability to synthesize complex ideas and studies into actionable steps people can use to build more engaging products and a healthier life. Ryan actually helped him with his first bestselling book,* Hooked: How to Build Habit Forming Products*, back in 2012, before Product Hunt started. This week he published his second book, Indistractable: How to Control Your Attention and Choose Your Life. The timing of its release is more relevant than ever as people are increasingly seeking a healthier relationship with their smartphones, wearables, and tech in general. In this episode they talk about... The change in attitude towards tech over the past several years “Back then people thought Zuckerberg and the Twitter guys and the Google guys just got lucky and stumbled onto something. We had to convince people that they knew what makes you click and what makes you tick better than you do yourself. Now, that’s a foregone conclusion. In fact, I think the pendulum has swung too far the other way.” Nir explains the shift in the perception of tech in general since he wrote his first book, Hooked, to now. He says that there has always been a level of skepticism in Silicon Valley, which is generally a good thing, but that he fears people are heading towards being too cynical and having a fixed mindset towards the tech industry and its products. How to make sure your product development process is ethical ““I think it’s important that product designers have a way to tap the brakes and ask, ‘is what we’re doing okay? Does this cross an ethical line?’” He talks about searching for an ethical framework that ensures that the products one creates are not causing harm to the user. He says that he went from the (former) Google motto “don’t be evil” to the Golden Rule to what the lawyers recommended to get to his formulation of the “regret test.” He explains exactly how you can use it at your company. A regret test asks ‘would the user do the thing we have designed for them to do, if they knew everything we do?’” Whether the government should or should not get involved in regulating tech They talk about some of the proposed regulations that are floating around the news these days, and Nir explains why they are well-intentioned but unlikely to make a real difference. He points out that the problem is the “fear-industrial complex” that accompanies any new tech or media. He says that to say that people lack any agency to pull themselves away from tech is insulting and points out that over fifty years ago, people were using the exact same words to describe the effects of comic books. The true impact of tech on your brain “Why is scrolling on Twitter somehow morally inferior to watching Fox News? To me they are equally divisive, equally potentially toxic, and can equally be abused by people who go overboard. Why do we only apply the standard to new technology? Because it’s an easy target.” Nir says that it’s important not to get fixated on the tech, but rather the end result of using that tech. He points out that both Snapchat and Duolingo use streaks, but to very different ends. He says that he is neither a proponent of nor apologist for tech and that not all distractions are created equal." The strategies he uses to ensure he doesn’t get distracted “The antidote to impulsiveness is forethought. We have to plan ahead and take steps in advance to make sure you do whatever it is you want to do in life.” He explains what his nightly routine is, how it has enabled him to live a better life, and how he uses certain pieces of tech to keep himself away from other, less useful tech. He tells the story of buying a twelve dollar flip phone from Alibaba and why, like crash diets, digital detoxes don’t end up working. Bonus Content: Aba’s Community Podcast Abadesi recently hosted a Periscope session where she asked the community to chime in on what their favorite products are and why. Make sure to follow us on social to participate in the next session, and you could make it into the podcast! We’ll be back next week so be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Breaker, Overcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. 😸

On this episode Abadesi talks to Nic Brisbourne, managing partner at Forward Partners, and creator of the popular email newsletter, The Equity Kicker. In this episode they talk about... The future of venture capital and the concept of “applied venture” “Why stop at having a few people on payroll to help your portfolio companies succeed? Why not find a way to have as many as possible? That allows you to help your portfolio companies with many more things, offer better service, and that should see the companies go on to achieve greater results.” Nic gives us a history of the waves of venture capital since the early 2000s and explains how firms have evolved over time to better serve founders. He talks about the new trend in the industry — what they call “applied venture.” He explains what it is and how it is having an impact on founders and companies. The culture at Forward Partners “When we think about our culture, on the one hand we’re trying to reflect what we have currently so that it feels authentic and on the other, we’re trying to stretch ourselves to what we want to be tomorrow.” Nic says that at Forward Partners they look up to characters who inspire and inform their work. He explains why they chose Indiana Jones, Yoda, and Leonardo Da Vinci as the three individuals who capture what they want to be at Forward. Nic’s introduction to mindfulness “It was totally the wrong time of year to go to India. I arrived at the New Dehli airport and there was a sign up in the airport with the temperature, 44 degrees centigrade at 1 o’clock in the morning.” Nic explains how he became an advocate for mindfulness after having a hesitant start and shares the funny story of going to India during the hottest months to meditate at an ashram. The benefits of mindfulness for founders “There was a biotech company that ran an 8-week mindfulness course for their employees. After eight weeks they did MRI scans and the happiness centres in the people who had been on the mindfulness course were noticeably more active.” After Nic became a mindfulness convert, he didn’t stop at how it could help him in his work, he looked also to how it could have a positive impact on the founders he works with as well. He explains some of the benefits to the practice and talks about some of the programs they have been putting on for founders to help them get in the habit. What he’s most excited about in the tech ecosystem “Really what’s most exciting for me is the way that the startup ecosystem is growing and growing. The world is changing faster and faster and we have bigger and bigger problems to solve and it’s entrepreneurs who are going to be solving those problems for us on a global level.“ He talks about some of the tech trends happening now that he loathes and loves, and explains what they look for when they’re evaluating a potential investment for the impact it would have on the world. Nic also shares some of his favorite products and explains why he was initially an Apple skeptic but has since become a fan. We’ll be back next week so be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Breaker, Overcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. 😸 Companies and Products Mentioned In This Episode 7Geese — Social performance management tool. Apple Watch — The most personal device Apple has ever created. Simple Habit — Meditation for people who never have time. Small Improvements — Help your employees grow and succeed. Wager — Bet against your friends.

On this episode Abadesi talks to Gina Bianchini, a serial entrepreneur and an investor. She is founder and CEO of Mighty Networks, a platform for building communities. She also co-founded Ning and has been an entrepreneur in residence at Andreessen Horowitz. In this episode they talk about... The emerging trend of community-powered businesses “They’ve taken their personal experience and their personal story, combined it with expertise, and now there are people who are really excited to master or learn that topic together with other people in their community.” Gina says that the next big trend in business is experiential commerce. She says that it’s a myth that building a community is hard and talks about some of the non-traditional ways to build one. She also explains the many benefits of creating a community around your business. Why it’s important to stay laser-focused on the results your customers want “How am I enabling the people using my product to have results they cannot otherwise achieve? If you have that, you can charge money for your community, you can charge more money for your product or service. It’s understanding how you are enabling your users to go from point A to point B.” Gina talks about some of the different approaches a maker can take to community-building but says the most important one is to notice what your customers’ needs are, what they’re looking to get out of the community, and how that intersects with what you can provide. How a community helps build your brand “A brand is how people talk about you when you’re not in the room. Here’s the amazing thing about investing in a community early on. You’re not just talking to your customer but you’re a part of a conversation where your customers are talking to other customers. You will understand so much more clearly what the people you serve need from your brand.” She says there’s no substitute for watching your customers talk to each other and listen to the specific words they’re using and exactly how they’re describing what they need. Observing your customers is made much easier when you are hosting the community. She also says that building a community off of the social media platforms is a better approach than trying to build on a monolithic platform like Facebook. Why it’s okay (and preferred!) to start small “There is no niche that is too small in 2019. There are 22 million people and brands that have over a million followers on Instagram. There are 147 million accounts with over 10,000 followers.” She talks about some of the lessons she learned from Ning, and explains why there was a “moment in 2007” where you could build a community for a broad swath of people but that moment has long passed. She says that not only is it easier to start small, it’s the only route to success. Gina also talks about some of her favorite products, why Instagram Stories has replaced TV for her, and some of her favorite accounts to follow on Instagram. We’ll be back next week so be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Breaker, Overcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. 😸

On this episode Abadesi talks to Courtland Allen. He is a super talented designer and developer. In 2016 he founded Indie Hackers, an awesome community of bootstrappers and makers sharing their stories. Nine months later Stripe acquired the company. Courtland is also a Y Combinator alumnus and an MIT graduate with a degree in Computer Science. In this episode they talk about how to avoid making the most common maker mistakes. They discuss... How and why Courtland became an Indie Hacker “I spent a while following the traditional startup route. I started a startup, I got into Y Combinator, we raised money, but we never really had a business model. Eventually we did charge money for our product, and a couple hundred people signed up right off the bat. I was enchanted by this idea that I don't have to raise money from investors, I don't have to hope that there's some sort of exit opportunity in the future, I could build something and put a price tag on it and sell it to people directly and feasibly pay my rent.” Courtland explains his path to becoming a self-sufficient bootstrapper. He got his start in the very early days of indie hacking, even before Stripe had launched. He says that it was the Stripe beta that allowed him to go independent. How to figure out whether you have a good idea on your hands “A lot of people think a business is an invention. But an invention needs to be this entirely novel thing. A business is more of a process. It doesn’t need to be completely unique. A lot of people get frustrated and blocked by their inability to come up with something that’s completely novel. The number one thing you should do is not put that constraint on yourself.” He explains how to “sanity check” your idea and runs through the common mistakes he sees people making when they are validating their ideas. Finding beta testers for your product and what to avoid when bootstrapping “You’re trying to from no one using your app to five or ten people. You can easily do that. Talk to five relatives or five friends or coworkers. Go online and find people who you think would be good users of your product and send them a heartfelt personalized email. A lot of founders I have talked to have done this non-scalable approach at the beginning.” Courtland explains why, as a one-person operation, you shouldn’t be copying what big, successful companies are doing. He says that a landing page is not a good way to test your product and instead recommends that you go the old-fashioned route and talk to people about it. “These companies are doing things that you can’t do, and that you probably shouldn’t do. You’re much smaller. You wouldn’t go to the gym and try to bench press five hundred pounds because the biggest guy in the gym is doing that. One of the most troubling things for early Indie Hackers is the most obvious examples to copy are these big companies who are the worst people to copy.” How to know whether to go full-time on your idea once demand picks up “The barometer I use is: Do I like the customers I’m serving? Are the people who are paying for what I’m building people I would want to talk to and be friends with and hang out with? Because that’s what you’re probably going to be doing for the next few years, so you probably don’t want to quit your job and go full-time into something you don’t like working on.” He provides some excellent advice on launching, dealing with the ups-and-downs of being a maker, and once you’ve made it to a place where you’re getting some traction, how to figure out whether to quit your day job and go full-steam ahead on your side project. He says that he saved up a year’s rent before going full-time on his idea and points out that even when you are full-time on your project, there will always be more to do than you can manage. We’ll be back next week so be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Breaker, Overcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Companies and Products Mentioned In This Episode Flippa — The #1 place to buy and sell websites, domains and apps. Notion — The all-in-one workspace - notes, tasks, wikis, & databases.

On this episode Abadesi talks to Cassidy Williams. Cassidy is a great follow on social media and is a software engineer at CodePen. Prior to CodePen, she worked for Venmo, Amazon, Clarify and others. She is a true maker and a huge mechanical keyboard nerd (which you hear a bit about on the show). In this episode they discuss... How she got to where she is today, including lessons learned from working at big and small companies “It gets more political the more you go up the career ladder. At CodePen, we only have eight people, so you can’t really be promoted, and past Cassidy’s mind might be blown that she can’t be promoted and she’s okay with that.” Cassidy talks her personal career trajectory and how she learned “the hard way” that big money at big companies isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. She talks a bit about working at Amazon and why it didn’t work out for her and explains why it’s just as valuable to know what you don’t want to do as knowing what you do want to do. She also talks about some of the differences between working at a big company and a small company. Her personal definition of success as a software engineer “My definition of success is having the flexibility to build whatever I want. Right now I’m building for CodePen but because my job is so flexible I’m able to build things outside of work. Someday I would love to be able to not have to work and build things for fun, whether for money or not. I love building things in general, whether it be keyboards, code, or Legos.” Cassidy says that she used to be obsessed with “climbing the career ladder” and explains why that’s no longer the case for her. She says that she would go into jobs with the intention of collecting titles and experience in order to make a case for a promotion. She’s realized now though that being at the top is less important to her than the freedom to be able to create and do the things she loves. The future of programming “When I first started using React, it seemed magical, but over time it has changed to be a lot more granular and less magical. That is a very interesting metaphor for a lot of things that are happening in the tech industry.“ She talks through some of the trends in software engineering, including how programming for the web has changed over the past few years. She explains how and why languages and the way that programmers use them have evolved over time. “People want to be more granular with their coding and engineering practices. A lot of people want to get to the core of adding more low-level and theoretical computer science practices to web development.” Why she loves mechanical keyboards so much “It’s so fun to be able to build something that is both pretty and functional. Typing on them is actually really fun. Typing on a mechanical keyboard feels like actually accomplishing something. When you feel that tactical feedback, it’s great.“ While doing the interview, Cassidy mentions that she had nine different mechanical keyboards sitting next to her. She waxes poetic on the virtues of using and building mechanical keyboards, including a breakdown of some of her favorite builds. She also talks about some of her other favorite non-keyboard products as well. We’ll be back next week so be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Breaker, Overcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Big thanks to Copper for their support. 😸 Companies and Products Mentioned In This Episode Bear — A beautiful, flexible, writing app for notes and prose. Sennheiser HD 6xx— Cassidy’s favorite headphones.

On this episode Abadesi talks to Justin Jackson. Justin is a founder, author, and podcaster. He is co-founder of Transistor, a platform for podcasters, and runs his own podcast called Build your SaaS. He is also the creator of the MegaMaker community for developers. In this episode they discuss... Going from side hustle to full-time founder “The truth is that where I’m at now is that where I’m at now is the result of years and years and years of investigating things, being curious and being naturally passionate about radio and audio in particular.” Justin followed a circuitous route to becoming a founder. He grew up in rural Alberta, Canada, and didn’t get his first job in tech until he was 28 years old. He recently started working on Transistor full-time, and explains the progression from working a regular job, to working remotely, to starting a side hustle, and finally to becoming a “solopreneur.” His candid recounting of his experience with depression “I got hit hard, like I had never been hit before. I have to admit I had a bad perspective on mental illness. I thought that people who were depressed were weak. I remember that time — I felt like I had been punched down into the ground like the Incredible Hulk.” Justin opens up about what it was like to experience depression for the first time, how it impacted him and how it changed his perspective on work, life, and mental illness generally. How to take care of your mental health “If you think of our lives as an application, we’re really good at maintaining the front end code. The front end code is everything that people see — the house, the degree, the job — all the external stuff. It’s the stuff we post on Instagram, it’s the stuff we talk about when we’re with friends, it’s our public face we reveal to others. But we have this back end code that we are gradually writing things to but not refactoring or caring for it the way we should.” He explains how he got himself out of his depression with the help of a therapist, and talks about some of the important mental shifts he needed in his life. He also talks about the importance of separating your sense of self and your identity from your professional projects. The future of podcasting and “mindful technology” “Increasingly, people are looking for mindful technology, technology that’s not designed to keep you on the platform forever, that’s not designed to be addictive or maintain your attention forever. It’s difficult to track, it’s difficult to sell your data, and podcasting right now fits — it’s mindful.” Justin has been passionate about audio since he was a kid riding in the family pickup truck in Alberta. He talks about the changes he’s seen in the space over the last decade and what the future holds for podcasting. He also explains his theory of mindful technology, why people want their technology to be mindful, and why podcasts fit the category perfectly. And of course, they talk about some of his favorite products for desktop and mobile. We’ll be back next week so be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Breaker, Overcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Big thanks to Copper for their support. 😸 Companies, Books and Products Mentioned In This Episode Adobe Fireworks CS5 — Adobe’s bitmap and vector editor (from a long time ago). Daylio — Mood tracker and micro-diary. The Mom Test — How to talk to customers Visual Studio Code — Microsoft’s cross-platform text editor for developers.

Abadesi is joined by Sarah Cooper on this episode. She’s an author and comedian from New York, and has published two books: 100 Tricks To Appear Smart In Meetings, and How To Be Successful Without Hurting Men’s Feelings. She was also an executive at Yahoo! and Google. In this episode they discuss: How she got started in comedy and her advice for following your passion “Observe yourself. Notice where your mind goes when you’re supposed to be doing something else. What do you obsess about? What can you not stop thinking about?“ It was a difficult decision to leave a job at Google to pursue comedy full-time, but Sarah walks through her decision-making process and what pushed her over the edge. She talks about how to find your passion, and why you might need to let go of those childhood dreams. “Be flexible in what you passion is. Don’t feel like you have to do something just because it was a childhood dream.“ The inside scoop on working at Google Sarah worked for several years at Google in NYC, working on the Google Docs product. She explains what the best (and worst) things were about her time at Google. She dishes on the amazing interior design, the perks, the nap pods, but also the hyper-competitive environment that knew no bounds. For example, she says that people would race to be the first one to congratulate a co-worker on a personal announcement in an email thread. Another time, a co-worker of hers grabbed her laptop out of her hands to type on it himself because she wasn’t typing fast enough. What she’s excited about and how tech can do better at helping the world “It’s kind of ironic because one of the big selling points of joining a tech company is the chance to change the world. That’s the problem with capitalism — the question is always ‘how are you going to make it into a million-dollar company,’ even if it is going to help a small group of people immensely.“ Aba asks Sarah which technologies she’s most excited about. Sarah talks about some of the problems inherent in capitalism and why a company that makes a huge difference to the lives of a small number of people will nevertheless have a hard time getting off the ground. Her advice for people who are trying to write more “Never set aside time to come up with ideas. Ideas come to you when you’re observing people or yourself or in the world, or in the shower. I keep a running list of ideas and when I sit down to write I’m not starting with a blank page.“ Sarah takes us behind the curtain to show us what her creative process looks like. She explains why improv comedy is a favorite activity for tech companies looking to do team building, and the best way to turbocharge your writing process. And of course, we also talk about some of her favorite products. We’ll be back next week so be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Breaker, Overcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Big thanks to Copper for their support. 😸 Companies and Products Mentioned In This Episode Google Docs — Write, edit, and collaborate wherever you are. For free. Slack — Be less busy. Real-time archiving, messaging and search. Twimmage — Turn tweets into beautiful images you can share on Instagram.

On this episode Abadesi talks to Alex Konrad, Senior Associate Editor at Forbes. He’s one of today’s top tech journalists and has interviewed some of the biggest tech titans around. He also plays a pivotal role in the lists that Forbes publishes, including The Midas List, The Cloud 100, and 30 Under 30. In this episode they discuss... Why The Financial Crisis Was a Flourishing Moment In Tech “If you look back, that post-2009 period was a really good one for new companies. Out of the chaos came all these great startups. People weren’t sure if the traditional industries were welcoming to them and they looked to do their own thing or join great tech companies.” Alex says that the current crop of companies going public can seem like overnight successes, but really they are “overnight successes ten years in the making.” He points out that many of them were started in the aftermath of the financial crisis, and explains what that was a “flourishing moment” in tech. “Emotionally, it was a hard time for all of us, but I do think that that uncertainty did create a lot of interesting ideas and risk-taking.“ How To Handle a Crisis as a Founder or CEO “The instinct can be to turtle and batten down the hatches and take an us-versus-the-world mentality when something goes wrong. You have to resist that inclination. CEOs and any founder who owns an issue and engages in conversation… I can’t think of a situation where that blew up in their face or it made the problem worse.“ Alex has covered plenty of scandals, breaches, and crises in his day. He explains how a founder or a CEO can make sure they handle a crisis in the best way they possibly can. He says that part of doing so means being human and approachable, instead of retreating into your company and denying responsibility. The Best Ways To Establish Rapport With Someone Important “I can connect really quickly or build a rapport with someone when I connect with them first as humans. Whether it’s small talk before or after a meeting or just asking a questions about hobbies or things unrelated to their company, its really important to see how people see the world and what they’re thinking about.” He talks about what it’s like to interview some of the biggest names in tech, including Satya Nadella, Marc Benioff and Eric Yuan. He explains how he builds a rapport with them in order to get the best interview possible, and gives us some tips on how to build rapport with anyone, as well as how you can communicate more effectively. “Hustle-Porn Culture” and How He Stays Productive “We idolize people who seem to be making crazy sacrifices and doing something outlandish in pursuit of their goal. We fall into the trap of thinking that just because that’s working for them it’s somehow better than what others are doing or something that we should all be doing.” Alex points out that the tech titans that he’s interviewed have drastically differing personal styles. Some are bookish while some are bombastic, yet they are all very successful. He points out that given the disparities, it’s hard to draw conclusions about the “best” way of doing something. He talks about the trend that’s currently in fashion to point to particular personal quirks and habits as the “key to success” and why we should be cautious about saying everyone should be waking at 4am or working seven days a week. And of course, we also talk about some of his favorite products. We’ll be back next week so be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Breaker, Overcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Big thanks to Copper for their support. 😸 Companies and Products Mentioned In This Episode Bear — A beautiful, flexible, writing app for your notes and prose. Canva — Amazingly simple graphic design. Duolingo — Learn languages completely free. Kanga — Find streams fast. Get alerts for your favorite streamers.

On this episode Abadesi talks to April Wensel, founder of Compassionate Coding, and one of Aba’s favorite follows on Twitter. She’s a veteran software engineer who has worked in healthcare, entertainment, research and education. In this episode they discuss... How to make your interviews more inclusive “What you can do is discuss problem solving on a technical level, because I think that’s really one of the most important skills as a software engineer. It’s not memorizing syntax or being able to code something up really fast on the spot, instead you turn it into an evolving conversation where you talk about architecture, how to choose frameworks, or working through refactoring problems.” April recounts her first time hiring a team of engineers and says that it ended up being fifty percent women and people of color without making any special effort to do so. She explains how she approached the hiring process and why typical tech industry interviews, despite being used by some of the biggest companies in tech, exclude too many people from the process and don’t test for the right skills. Why we need to change the way we think about the tech industry “We don’t think a lot about the people who are involved in or affected by tech. We’re mostly focused on the hot new technology or whatever. That’s what inspired me to start something to change how we think about technology from the level of software engineers.” April explains how she came to the realization about the tech industry that spurred her to create Compassionate Coding. She says that too often we don’t think enough about the human side of technology and that we need a new approach. Why telling someone you’re non-technical is nonsensical, and why she says, "if you can use a fork, you’re technical" “I was always hearing this term non-technical. When people call themselves non-technical, that’s heartbreaking because they’re limiting their possibilities. It’s like when people say they’re not creative. It’s such a fixed way of looking at the world that’s just not true. Whatever skills they have, they’re technical. Anything where you go really deep is technical.” She says that in her experience in tech “non-technical” has been used as a codeword for a broad swath of unspoken reasons that someone wouldn’t fit in. She explains why we need a broader definition of technical that doesn’t just mean that someone has coding skills. The problem of “toxic elitism” in the tech industry “The culture that uses terms like RTFM implies that ‘I’m not going to help you, and you should be ashamed that you didn’t help yourself first.’ It assumes that this person is lazy and can’t figure things out.” April talks about some of the toxic attitudes and behaviors that pervade tech, and specifically software engineering. She says that people are too often reticent to help each other and that there is an unwarranted sense of superiority among engineers. How you can do your part to cultivate a positive culture at your company “Imagine the fear that we [women and minorities] have been living in forever. Now that we’re having conversations, yes it’s making men and people from the majority groups more mindful, but yes, your words are important and it’s worth being mindful about them. It’s about not being afraid to make a mistake but knowing you will make mistakes and being humble enough to admit that and then to handle it gracefully when someone points out that you made a mistake and commit to doing better.” Aba and April swap stories of some of the most egregious interactions they’ve had or heard about in the tech industry, and explain how we can all help to make tech more more inclusive. We’ll be back next week so be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Breaker, Overcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Big thanks to Copper for their support. 😸 Companies and Products Mentioned In This Episode Happy Cow — Find vegan and vegetarian options near you. Strava — The social network for runners and cyclists. Tara Brach — Weekly meditation classes.

Ryan recently visited Grove HQ in SOMA in San Francisco to chat with two founders who know a ton about fintech. Chris Hutchins was our gracious host and is CEO of Grove, a startup that uses people and technology to help you with your financial goals. Ryan actually met Chris in the early days of Product Hunt when he was an investor at Google Ventures. Before that, he started a company called Milk that was acquired by Google. All his life he's been a self-acknowledged financial nerd, often sharing his money-saving tips with friends, which was a large inspiration for starting Grove. Jake Gibson is the co-founder of NerdWallet. The company started back in 2009 and helps consumers make smart financial decisions like “which credit card should I get?” or “what's the best savings account for me?” He left in 2014 and has since focused his time angel investing, primarily in fintech startups. In this episode they discuss... How fintech has evolved over the past decade — and why it’s so hot right now Jake and Chris both worked in finance before becoming entrepreneurs and they talk about how that informed the companies they founded. They talk about the big changes that have happened over the last ten years and why a space that very few founders would touch just a few years ago has become one of the hottest spaces for entrepreneurs and investors. “We all basically know the guidelines around how to be healthy, but we don’t do it, because eating broccoli sucks, and its complicated, and good food is expensive, so there are a lot of reasons why we aren’t going to do it and personal finance is the same way.” — Jake The top financial life hacks, including why Chris says he buys his groceries at OfficeMax People ask me, ‘where do you buy your groceries?’ and I’ll be like, ‘I buy my groceries at OfficeMax, because I buy Whole Foods gift cards at OfficeMax so that I can buy my groceries.’ You have to be kind of crazy to do that but I’m clearly there.” — Chris Chris talks about his obsessive quest for credit card points and why, once you take a lavish vacation using only the points you’ve accrued on your cards, it makes having twelve credit cards and an index card to tell you when to spend on which one all worth it. “I have all these credit cards and I’ve specifically gone in and said, ‘do I spend enough here to make it worth it?’ It might be that I’m the first person to volunteer to plan a trip for friends and they all think ‘wow, I’m getting this awesome benefit, my friend’s planning this trip for me, I don’t have to think about it.’ I’m like, totally, and I will do that for free, but I will put 100% of the flights and hotels on my credit card. I’ll earn the points, you get a free travel agent, and it works out really well for both of us.” — Chris What the future holds for fintech and their favorite companies in the space They talk about the problems they were trying to solve with the companies they co-founded, what remains to be done in the space, and some of their favorite apps for helping you get a handle on your finances. “How do you know if a term life policy is more relevant than investing in your 401k or saving more money or putting it towards your kids’ college? How do you figure all that out? The short answer is you could build a future cash flow model and the bankers in the room are like ‘oh, I already did that’ but 99 percent of people are like ‘I have no idea.’” — Chris The rise of crypto and how it might impact fintech “There are a lot of people in the crypto space who don’t know anything about finance and a lot of people who know a lot about finance getting into crypto who don’t know anything about crypto, so it’ll be interesting to see how that will all evolve.” — Jake It wouldn’t be a tech podcast without talking about crypto, right? They discuss the promise of crypto and which aspects of it are overhyped. “People talk about how tokenizing securities — stocks and bonds and things like that — should make the world better and more efficient. Sure, if you can cut out trading costs, I think that can be helpful, but you don’t necessarily need a blockchain to do that. Additionally, everyone says one of the benefits is it’s tradable 24/7. I don’t think that’s actually a benefit.” — Jake If you want to give Grove a try, check out hellogrove.com/producthunt to get $100 off. We’ll be back next week so be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Breaker, Overcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Big thanks to Vettery and Copper for their support. 😸 Companies and Products Mentioned In This Episode Astra — Save money. Without thinking about it. Cushion — Your bank and credit card fees, refunded. Ease — Benefits administration and HR software. Lively — Zenefits for health savings accounts. Max My Interest— Intelligent cash management for intelligent investors. Mint — The classic automated budget tracker. Plaid — A REST API for your bank. Synapse — The banking platform. Visor — Taxes made simple. Yodlee — Access financial data through an API.