

Ministry Deep Dive
Travis Michael Fleming
Ministry Deep Dive is a podcast from Apollos Watered: The Center for Discipleship & Cultural Apologetics. Each episode goes beneath the surface of ministry to explore the challenges, opportunities, and practices shaping today’s leaders. From discipleship and cultural engagement to spiritual formation and public theology, we wrestle with the big questions and everyday realities pastors, missionaries, and Christian leaders face.
We don’t just talk about church—we talk about the people who lead it and the world that surrounds it. Our approach is missioholistic—a framework we’ve developed to help you faithfully minister in a complex, pluralistic culture that enables you to transform the world.
If you want to grow deeper in your faith, sharpen your leadership, and engage culture with the hope of the gospel, join us for thoughtful conversations that will help you water your world.
We don’t just talk about church—we talk about the people who lead it and the world that surrounds it. Our approach is missioholistic—a framework we’ve developed to help you faithfully minister in a complex, pluralistic culture that enables you to transform the world.
If you want to grow deeper in your faith, sharpen your leadership, and engage culture with the hope of the gospel, join us for thoughtful conversations that will help you water your world.
Episodes
Mentioned books

Jun 27, 2023 • 48min
#187 | The Emotions of God, Pt. 1 | David T. Lamb
Does God get emotional? Does that sound strange? It isn't. We talk about God's emotions all the time. Isn't love an emotion? God is love, but the Bible also says that God hates (Proverbs 6:16-19). That begs the question: does God have other emotions? What are the emotions of God? Is there more than love and hate? Does God get sad? How does God feel compassion? Is God mad at you? Does God ever feel afraid? Surprise? Fear? Is God emotional? What does that mean for us who are made in His image? These are just some of the questions that we walk through in today's episode. Today, welcome Dr. David T. Lamb to the show to discuss his new book, The Emotions of God (IVP, 2022). Dr. Lamb is the MacRae Professor of Old Testament Dean of the Faculty at Misso Seminary in Philadelphia, PA. Dr. Lamb has extensive teaching experience, including cross-cultural projects in Nigeria, Mexico, Kazakhstan, and Russia. He is the author of The Historical Writings: Introducing Israel’s Historical Literature (Fortress, 2016), Prostitutes and Polygamists: A Look at Love, Old Testament Style (Zondervan, 2015), God Behaving Badly: Is the God of the Old Testament Angry, Sexist and Racist? (InterVarsity Press, 2011), Righteous Jehu and His Evil Heirs (Oxford University Press, 2007), The Story of God Commentary 1, 2 Kings (Zondervan). Dr. Lamb worked with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship from 1986-1999, serving as campus staff, team leader, and area director.If we are to unlock our mission, we need to know who the God we serve is and we need to know who we are. We are not machines, and God has called us in our full humanity to follow Him with the entirety of who we are. Our emotions are a gift and come from Him. Without understanding properly who He is, we can't understand who we are, and if we can't understand who we are, we can't understand what He has called us to be and do. It's a conversation that delves deep into the heart of God and helps us to fulfill the mission He has for us. And check episodes that help us understand the Bible better:#26 Randy Richards: Misreading Scripture With Individualist Eyes#77 Michael S. Heiser-Naked Scripture, the Supernatural, and Scared Evangelicals#88 Tremper Longman III, Pt. 1-The Bible You Need Is The One You Read#89 Tremper Longman III, Pt. 2-Scripture, Psalms, and Nourishing Your Soul#101 Esteban Shedd: Creative Communicators Engaging Global Urban Culture#106 Donald Whitney: Praying the Bible#111 John Plake: Scripture Engagement, Trauma, and Transformation in Chaotic Times#150 Kevin Vanhoozer: Scriptural Illiteracy & Secular Imagination, Pt. 1#151 Kevin Vanhoozer: Scriptural Illiteracy & Secular Imagination, Pt. 2Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.God continues to grow our ministry, but He calls people like you to help do it! Support the Ministry of Apollos Watered today!

Jun 23, 2023 • 1h 1min
#186 | The Toxic War on Masculinity, Pt. 2 | Nancy Pearcey
Travis and Nancy continue their conversation on the war on toxic masculinity. They discuss what biblical masculinity is and what it's not, what a "good man" is, the shape of the home, the industrial revolution, and some of the differences the data reveals between men and women. Nancy shows how the Bible gives a vision of masculinity that is actually not toxic, instead, it is healthy, wonderful, and necessary for the success of society.Nancy Pearcey is the author of the upcoming book The Toxic War on Masculinity: How Christianity Reconciles the Sexes. Her most recently published book is Love Thy Body: Answering Hard Questions about Life and Sexuality. Her earlier books include The Soul of Science, Saving Leonardo, Finding Truth, and two ECPA Gold Medallion Award Winners: How Now Shall We Live (coauthored with Harold Fickett and Chuck Colson) and Total Truth. Her books have been translated into 19 languages. She is professor and scholar in residence at Houston Christian University. A former agnostic, Pearcey has spoken at universities such as Princeton, Stanford, USC, and Dartmouth. She has been quoted in The New Yorker and Newsweek, highlighted as one of the five top women apologists by Christianity Today, and hailed in The Economist as "America's pre-eminent evangelical Protestant female intellectual."For anyone who wants data to show them the benefit of Christianity, then listen in as Travis and Nancy discuss this immensely important topic. They talk about many things in the show-L.L. Bean, Nancy's love for the violin, Francis Schaeffer, and so much more. This episode will surely help equip you when you are challenged by the notion that Christian masculinity is toxic. There are many episodes referred to in and after this episode. Here they are for your listening pleasure:#185 Nancy Pearcey | The Toxic War on Masculinity, Pt. 1#78 Nancy Pearcey, Pt. 1-Sex, Self, Splits in Reality, and the Search for Meaning#79 Nancy Pearcey, Pt. 2-Loving the Body, Learning the Language, & Life Change#166 | Christopher Watkin: Biblical Critical Theory, Pt. 1#167 | Christopher Watkin: Biblical Critical Theory, Pt. 2#171 | Malcolm Guite: Transfigure Your Imagination, Pt. 1#172 | Malcolm Guite: Transfigure Your Imagination, Pt. 2#177 | Daniel Strange | Magnetic Points, Pt. 1#178 | Daniel Strange | Magnetic Points, Pt. 2#181 | Karen Swallow Prior | The Evangelical Imagination, Pt. 1#182 | Karen Swallow Prior | The Evangelical Imagination, Pt. 2Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.God continues to grow our ministry, but He calls people like you to help do it! Support the ministry of Apollos Watered today!

Jun 20, 2023 • 57min
#185 | The Toxic War on Masculinity, Pt. 1 | Nancy Pearcey
Two words: Toxic masculinity. It seems to be everywhere, from secular newspapers to Christian bookstores carry articles discussing toxic masculinity and for many the root of it, or one of the biggest culprits anyway, is Christian men. Is Christian masculinity toxic? We know that pundits are saying so, but what about the actual data? And what about the data from those who are not Christians? What does THAT data say? For many, subjects such as masculinity and femininity have become battlegrounds in our culture wars with Christianity in the crosshairs, but is the Christian view of masculinity actually toxic? Nancy Pearcey is back and her newest book challenges many of the secular notions of toxic masculinity. Nancy Pearcey is the author of the upcoming book The Toxic War on Masculinity: How Christianity Reconciles the Sexes. Her most recently published book is Love Thy Body: Answering Hard Questions about Life and Sexuality. Her earlier books include The Soul of Science, Saving Leonardo, Finding Truth, and two ECPA Gold Medallion Award Winners: How Now Shall We Live (coauthored with Harold Fickett and Chuck Colson) and Total Truth. Her books have been translated into 19 languages. She is professor and scholar in residence at Houston Christian University. A former agnostic, Pearcey has spoken at universities such as Princeton, Stanford, USC, and Dartmouth. She has been quoted in The New Yorker and Newsweek, highlighted as one of the five top women apologists by Christianity Today, and hailed in The Economist as "America's pre-eminent evangelical Protestant female intellectual."For anyone who wants data to show them the benefit of Christianity, then listen in as Travis and Nancy discuss this immensely important topic. They talk about many things in the show-L.L. Bean, Nancy's love for the violin, Francis Schaeffer, and so much more. This episode will surely help equip you when you are challenged by the notion that Christian masculinity is toxic. There are many episodes referred to in and after this episode. Here they are for your listening pleasure:#78 Nancy Pearcey, Pt. 1-Sex, Self, Splits in Reality, and the Search for Meaning#79 Nancy Pearcey, Pt. 2-Loving the Body, Learning the Language, & Life Change#166 | Christopher Watkin: Biblical Critical Theory, Pt. 1#167 | Christopher Watkin: Biblical Critical Theory, Pt. 2#171 | Malcolm Guite: Transfigure Your Imagination, Pt. 1#172 | Malcolm Guite: Transfigure Your Imagination, Pt. 2#177 | Daniel Strange | Magnetic Points, Pt. 1#178 | Daniel Strange | Magnetic Points, Pt. 2#181 | Karen Swallow Prior | The Evangelical Imagination, Pt. 1#182 | Karen Swallow Prior | The Evangelical Imagination, Pt. 2Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.God continues to grow our ministry, but He calls people like you to help do it! Support the ministry of Apollos Watered today!

Jun 16, 2023 • 1h
#184 | Once You See: Seven Temptations of the Western Church, Pt. 2 | Jeff Christopherson
In this second part of the conversation, Travis and Jeff discuss the mindset shift needed to embrace God's work in the world today. What is that shift? Can anyone make it? What are the ramifications if we do? They continue their discussion of Jeff's newest book, Once You See: Seven Temptations of the Western Church: A Novel (100 Movements, 2022). Jeff is an author, leader, speaker, missiologist, and movement catalyst. He has served as the Executive Director of the Canadian National Baptist Convention, Executive Director at Church Planting Canada, and Co-Founder and Chief Missiologist at Church Multiplication Institute. Learn more about 100Movements.Check out the NLT.Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help water-thirsty souls by partnering with Apollos Watered!

Jun 13, 2023 • 52min
#183 | Once You See: Seven Temptations of the Western Church, Pt. 1 | Jeff Christopherson
What happens when Jesus refugees from the majority world enter into a megachurch in the south? Have you seen God work in churches in the West in similar ways that we hear about in the majority world? Are pastors in the West today more concerned about the Sunday experience and the metrics of growth that they really don't know how to "make disciples"? Jeff Christopherson addresses this and so much more in his newest book, Once You See: Seven Temptations of the Western Church: A Novel (100 Movements, 2022). Jeff is an author, leader, speaker, missiologist, and movement catalyst. He has served as the Executive Director of the Canadian National Baptist Convention, Executive Director at Church Planting Canada, and Co-Founder and Chief Missiologist at Church Multiplication Institute. Travis and Jeff discuss the current state of evangelicalism and how evangelicalism has become stuck in a certain form of ministry built on principles of attraction within a high Christendom culture, but as they show, the culture has shifted and God is doing a new work. What is it? What is it going to look like? Listen in to find out! Learn more about 100Movements.Check out the NLT.Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help water-thirsty souls by partnering with Apollos Watered!

Jun 9, 2023 • 1h 3min
#182 | The Evangelical Imagination, Pt. 2 | Karen Swallow Prior
Is the Christian ideal that we aspire to in our lives really Christian? In our families? In what we do pursue? How do we separate the Gospel from the evangelical culture? And what happens when you address these things in our evangelical institutions? This week on Apollos Watered, we finish off our conversation about Karen's forthcoming book, The Evangelical Imagination: How Stories, Images, and Metaphors Created a Culture in Crisis (Brazos 2023). Travis and Karen talk about all things evangelicalism and culture and how they overlap. They also discuss her departure from the Southern Baptist Convention, and her desire for the church in North America going forward. Karen Swallow Prior, Ph. D., is a reader, writer, and professor. In addition to her newest book, she is the author of On Reading Well: Finding the Good Life through Great Books (Brazos 2018); Jane Eyre: A Guide to Reading and Reflecting (B&H 2021), The Scarlet Letter: A Guide to Reading and Reflecting (Read and Reflect with the Classics) (B&H 2022), Frankenstein: A Guide to Reading and Reflecting (B&H 2021), Sense and Sensibility: A Guide to Reading and Reflecting (B&H 2020), Tess of the d'Urbervilles: A Guide to Reading and Reflecting (B&H 2022), Fierce Convictions: The Extraordinary Life of Hannah More—Poet, Reformer, Abolitionist (Thomas Nelson, 2014); and Booked: Literature in the Soul of Me (T. S. Poetry Press, 2012). She is co-editor of Cultural Engagement: A Crash Course in Contemporary Issues (Zondervan 2019) and has contributed to numerous other books. She has a monthly column for Religion News Service. Her writing has appeared at Christianity Today, New York Times, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, First Things, Vox, Think Christian, The Gospel Coalition, and various other places. She hosted the podcast Jane and Jesus. Karen gives frequent lectures and talks on her work. Among the places she has spoken are Wheaton College, University of Minnesota, Indiana Wesleyan University, Northwestern University, Grace College, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, The Gospel Coalition Conference, Redeemer University College, Toronto Baptist Seminary, United Theological Seminary, Festival of Faith and Writing, Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma’s Women’s Conference, Roanoke Regional Writers Conference, The Row House Forum, Q Boston, the Glen Workshop, and the Humane Society of the United States.She completed her Ph.D. at the State University of New York at Buffalo and her undergraduate studies at Daemen College in Amherst, New York. Her academic focus is British literature, with a specialty in the eighteenth century, a period she loves for its emphasis on philosophy, ethics, aesthetics, and community, as well as its efforts at correcting the universal human impulse to gravitate toward extremes. Her scholarly work has appeared in 1650-1850: Ideas, Aesthetics, and Inquiries in the Early Modern Era; The Shandean; The Scriblerian and various literary encyclopedias.She is a contributing editor for Comment (an online magazine we love), a founding member of The Pelican Project, a Senior Fellow at the Trinity Forum, a Senior Fellow at the International Alliance for Christian Education, a former Senior Fellow at the L. Russ Bush Center for Faith and Culture and is a former member of the Faith Advisory Council of the Humane Society of the United States. She and her husband live on a 100-year old homestead in central Virginia with dogs, chickens, and lots of books.Check out our other conversations on the imagination and how evangelicalism has developed and how it has shaped our imagination and how we live. #181: Karen Swallow Prior | The Evangelical Imagination, Pt. 1#114 J.D. Payne: Rediscovering The Apostolic Imagination#154 David Bebbington The Dominance of Evangelicalism, Pt. 1#155 David Bebbington The Dominance of Evangelicalism, Pt. 2#158 Mark Noll | What's An Evangelical? | It's Complicated, Pt. 1#159 Mark Noll | What's An Evangelical? | It's Complicated, Pt. 2#171 | Malcolm Guite: Transfigure Your Imagination, Pt. 1#172 | Malcolm Guite: Transfigure Your Imagination, Pt. 2Check out the NLT.Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help water-thirsty souls by partnering with Apollos Watered!

Jun 6, 2023 • 1h 6min
#181 | The Evangelical Imagination, Pt. 1 | Karen Swallow Prior
What is the "good life" to you? Is it the American Dream? Is it the kids getting a good education and job? What about the family? Taking a vacation someplace exotic on spring break? Where did we get these ideas on the good life from? Are they biblical? Karen Swallow Prior has some pretty good ideas!Travis and Karen discuss her forthcoming book, The Evangelical Imagination: How Stories, Images, and Metaphors Created a Culture in Crisis (Brazos 2023). They discuss how we developed this idea of what the good life is and what it is supposed to be and how some have ordered their lives to get it. They also discuss Flannery O'Connor, eighteenth and nineteenth-century literature, modern evangelicalism, her departure from the Southern Baptist Convention, and her desire for the church in North America going forward. Karen Swallow Prior, Ph. D., is a reader, writer, and professor. In addition to her newest book, she is the author of On Reading Well: Finding the Good Life through Great Books (Brazos 2018); Jane Eyre: A Guide to Reading and Reflecting (B&H 2021), The Scarlet Letter: A Guide to Reading and Reflecting (Read and Reflect with the Classics) (B&H 2022), Frankenstein: A Guide to Reading and Reflecting (B&H 2021), Sense and Sensibility: A Guide to Reading and Reflecting (B&H 2020), Tess of the d'Urbervilles: A Guide to Reading and Reflecting (B&H 2022), Fierce Convictions: The Extraordinary Life of Hannah More—Poet, Reformer, Abolitionist (Thomas Nelson, 2014); and Booked: Literature in the Soul of Me (T. S. Poetry Press, 2012). She is co-editor of Cultural Engagement: A Crash Course in Contemporary Issues (Zondervan 2019) and has contributed to numerous other books. She has a monthly column for Religion News Service. Her writing has appeared at Christianity Today, New York Times, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, First Things, Vox, Think Christian, The Gospel Coalition, and various other places. She hosted the podcast Jane and Jesus. Karen gives frequent lectures and talks on her work. Among the places she has spoken are Wheaton College, University of Minnesota, Indiana Wesleyan University, Northwestern University, Grace College, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, The Gospel Coalition Conference, Redeemer University College, Toronto Baptist Seminary, United Theological Seminary, Festival of Faith and Writing, Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma’s Women’s Conference, Roanoke Regional Writers Conference, The Row House Forum, Q Boston, the Glen Workshop, and the Humane Society of the United States.She completed her Ph.D. at the State University of New York at Buffalo and her undergraduate studies at Daemen College in Amherst, New York. Her academic focus is British literature, with a specialty in the eighteenth century, a period she loves for its emphasis on philosophy, ethics, aesthetics, and community, as well as its efforts at correcting the universal human impulse to gravitate toward extremes. Her scholarly work has appeared in 1650-1850: Ideas, Aesthetics, and Inquiries in the Early Modern Era; The Shandean; The Scriblerian and various literary encyclopedias.She is a contributing editor for Comment (an online magazine we love), a founding member of The Pelican Project, a Senior Fellow at the Trinity Forum, a Senior Fellow at the International Alliance for Christian Education, a former Senior Fellow at the L. Russ Bush Center for Faith and Culture and is a former member of the Faith Advisory Council of the Humane Society of the United States. She and her husband live on a 100-year old homestead in central Virginia with dogs, chickens, and lots of books.Check out our other conversations on the imagination and how evangelicalism has developed and how it has shaped our imagination and how we live. #114 J.D. Payne: Rediscovering The Apostolic Imagination#154 David Bebbington The Dominance of Evangelicalism, Pt. 1#155 David Bebbington The Dominance of Evangelicalism, Pt. 2#158 Mark Noll | What's An Evangelical? | It's Complicated, Pt. 1#159 Mark Noll | What's An Evangelical? | It's Complicated, Pt. 2#171 | Malcolm Guite: Transfigure Your Imagination, Pt. 1#172 | Malcolm Guite: Transfigure Your Imagination, Pt. 2Check out the NLT.Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help water-thirsty souls by partnering with Apollos Watered!

Jun 2, 2023 • 56min
#180 | The Joy Switch, Pt. 2 | Chris Coursey
Travis & Chris Coursey continue our conversation from Part 1, but this time, in Part 2, we go deeper into joy and how we cultivate it. What do we do when our joy switch gets turned off? What are some practical things that we can do to step back into joy? Listen in and find out! Chris Coursey is an ordained minister, pastoral counselor, published author, and international speaker. He is also the curriculum designer and leader of THRIVE training which uses creative, interactive exercises to train leaders in the 19 relational skills that result in positive character change. Chris has authored/co-authored several books including The 4 Habits of Joy-Filled Marriages, Relational Skills in the Bible, The 4 Habits of Joy-Filled People, Transforming Fellowship, The 4 Habits of Raising Joy-Filled Kids, 30 Days of Joy for Busy Married Couples, and The Joy Switch, the book in our discussion today.Learn more about THRIVEtoday.If you are interested in neurotheology be sure to check out these episodes, as we delve into the topic of neurotheology and how it works in leadership, how we engage our enemies, those we love, and how it affects our walk with Jesus. Check out Part 1: #179 Chris Coursey, Pt 1.-The Joy Switch#107 Jim Wilder, Pt. 1-God on the Brain (intro to neurotheology) #108 Jim Wilder, Pt. 2-God on the Brain (intro to neurotheology)#109 Michel Hendricks, Pt. 1-Relational Reformation#110 Michel Hendricks, Pt. 2-Relational Reformation#120 Marcus Warner, Our Walk, Wounds, & Warfare, Pt. 1#121 Marcus Warner, Our Walk, Wounds, & Warfare, Pt. 2#140 Jim Wilder, Pt. 1-Enemy Mode#141 Jim Wilder, Pt. 2-Enemy Mode#142 Marcus Warner, RARE Leadership, Pt. 1#143 Marcus Warner, RARE Leadership, Pt. 2Check out the NLT.Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help water-thirsty souls by partnering with Apollos Watered!

May 30, 2023 • 58min
#179 | The Joy Switch, Pt. 1 | Chris Coursey
How is it that some people can know everything about the Bible and know zero about relationships? How do we actually engage with people when they annoy us? How do we tune out of relationships? What has joy got to do with all of this? And moreover, what does any of this have to do with the mission of God? Chris Coursey has an idea!Chris Coursey is an ordained minister, pastoral counselor, published author, and international speaker. He is also the curriculum designer and leader of THRIVE training which uses creative, interactive exercises to train leaders in the 19 relational skills that result in positive character change. Chris has authored/co-authored several books including The 4 Habits of Joy-Filled Marriages, Relational Skills in the Bible, The 4 Habits of Joy-Filled People, Transforming Fellowship, The 4 Habits of Raising Joy-Filled Kids, 30 Days of Joy for Busy Married Couples, and The Joy Switch, the book in our discussion today.Learn more about THRIVEtoday.If you are interested in neurotheology be sure to check out these episodes, as we delve into the topic of neurotheology and how it works in leadership, how we engage our enemies, those we love, and how it affects our walk with Jesus.#107 Jim Wilder, Pt. 1-God on the Brain (intro to neurotheology) #108 Jim Wilder, Pt. 2-God on the Brain (intro to neurotheology)#109 Michel Hendricks, Pt. 1-Relational Reformation#110 Michel Hendricks, Pt. 2-Relational Reformation#120 Marcus Warner, Our Walk, Wounds, & Warfare, Pt. 1#121 Marcus Warner, Our Walk, Wounds, & Warfare, Pt. 2#140 Jim Wilder, Pt. 1-Enemy Mode#141 Jim Wilder, Pt. 2-Enemy Mode#142 Marcus Warner, RARE Leadership, Pt. 1#143 Marcus Warner, RARE Leadership, Pt. 2Check out the NLT.Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help water-thirsty souls by partnering with Apollos Watered!

May 26, 2023 • 32min
#178 | Magnetic Points With Our Culture Pt. 2 | Daniel Strange
In this episode, Travis and Daniel discuss the concept of magnetic points and how they bridge the gap to the Gospel. They delve into the methods of missiologists and the importance of learning from them. Exploring belief systems like Islam and Hinduism, they highlight the significance of relationships and understanding. The speakers also emphasize the need to present Christ as a person and embrace a missional mindset. Finally, they discuss rethinking the gospel and embracing mission in light of God's greatness.