

Ministry Deep Dive
Travis Michael Fleming
Ministry Deep Dive is a podcast from Apollos Watered: The Center for Discipleship & Cultural Apologetics. Each episode goes beneath the surface of ministry to explore the challenges, opportunities, and practices shaping today’s leaders. From discipleship and cultural engagement to spiritual formation and public theology, we wrestle with the big questions and everyday realities pastors, missionaries, and Christian leaders face.
We don’t just talk about church—we talk about the people who lead it and the world that surrounds it. Our approach is missioholistic—a framework we’ve developed to help you faithfully minister in a complex, pluralistic culture that enables you to transform the world.
If you want to grow deeper in your faith, sharpen your leadership, and engage culture with the hope of the gospel, join us for thoughtful conversations that will help you water your world.
We don’t just talk about church—we talk about the people who lead it and the world that surrounds it. Our approach is missioholistic—a framework we’ve developed to help you faithfully minister in a complex, pluralistic culture that enables you to transform the world.
If you want to grow deeper in your faith, sharpen your leadership, and engage culture with the hope of the gospel, join us for thoughtful conversations that will help you water your world.
Episodes
Mentioned books

Feb 3, 2023 • 58min
#147 | Help and Hope in Your Suffering, Pt. 1 | Mark Talbot
Travis welcomes Mark Talbot to the show! Mark is a professor of Philosophy of Wheaton College in Wheaton, IL. Travis and Mark tackle the difficult and unpleasant subject of suffering in the Christian life, especially chronic suffering. They discuss two of Mark's books, When The Stars Disappear and Giving Me Understanding That I May Live. They make up two volumes of what will be a four-volume set. This is a discussion centered on suffering as seen through the lens of Scripture. Having been paralyzed since an accident when he was 17, Mark doesn't come to the subject as a passive observer, but as an active participant. This is not a mere philosophical question or academic exercise, but the deep wrestling of a believer in Jesus trying to understand the question as to why a good God allows our suffering. Learn more about Mark and get his books.Some of our other episodes have addressed the subject of suffering, as well as trauma, and the stories of Scripture. Be sure to check out:#111: John Plake-Scripture Engagement, Trauma, and Transformation in Chaotic times. #112: Jami Staples-Truth, Trauma, and Transformation, Pt. 1#113: Jami Staples-Truth, Trauma, and Transformation, Pt. 2Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!

Jan 27, 2023 • 1h 1min
#146 | Faithful Disobedience, Pt. 2 | Hannah Nation
Part 2! Travis and Hannah continue their conversation on the Chinese Church and how what they are going through affects the church in the West. What lessons can we learn in our postmodern, comfort-addicted, materialistic, suffering-averse culture? What can we learn from our brothers and sisters on the side of the world? What role does suffering have to play in our Christian life? What role does it play in our discipleship?Hannah is the Executive Director of the Center for House Church Theology and discusses her newest book, Faithful Disobedience. Faithful Disobedience is about the Chinese House Church movement, and specifically pastor Wang Yi, who is in prison right now for speaking out against the Chinese government. He reminds us of a Chinese Dietrich Bonhoeffer. At Apollos Watered, we want to renew the church by creating missioholistic Christians, who are dedicated to accomplishing the mission of God in their specific context. Part of the missioholistic approach is bringing in global voices that help us out of our current cultural rut by showing us how they express the mission of God in their world. It's a must-listen conversation and one that will encourage you and challenge you to pursue the purpose of God with all of your heart wherever you are.Check out the first part of the conversation: #145: Hannah Nation | Faithful Disobedience, Pt. 1Get the book.Check out the Center for House Church TheologySign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!

Jan 20, 2023 • 56min
#145 | Faithful Disobedience, Pt. 1 | Hannah Nation
Travis welcomes Hannah Nation to the show! Hannah is the Executive Director of the Center for House Church Theology and discusses her newest book, Faithful Disobedience. Faithful Disobedience is about the Chinese House Church movement, and specifically pastor Wang Yi, who is in prison right now for speaking out against the Chinese government. What does a jailed Chinese pastor have to say to the church in the West? Plenty! Hannah helps us to hear some of the lessons that leaders from the Chinese House Churches have gleaned and what they mean for us in our lives today. We talk about suffering, the true nature of the church, and what it looks like to be faithfully disobedient who desperately wants to direct what we believe and how we live in our world today. Its a conversation about the truth, purity, and nature of the Gospel itself and how it changes people from the inside out. At Apollos Watered, we want to renew the church by creating missioholistic Christians, who are dedicated to accomplishing the mission of God in their specific context. Part of the missioholistic approach is bringing in global voices that help us out of our current cultural rut by showing us how they express the mission of God in their world. It's a must-listen conversation and one that will encourage you and challenge you to pursue the purpose of God with all of your heart wherever you are.Check out the second part of the conversation in #146: Deep Conversation w/ Hannah Nation | Faithful Disobedience, Pt. 2Get the book.Check out the Center for House Church TheologySign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!

Jan 13, 2023 • 1h 19min
#144 | God on the Move Among Diaspora Peoples | Sam George
Travis welcomes Sam George to the show! Sam is the Global Catalyst for Diaspora Ministries with the Lausanne Movement. God is on the move. He is moving people in ways we have never seen. According to the UN High Commission on Refugees, on the 23 of May 2022, the number of people forced to flee due to persecution, conflict, violence, human rights violations, and events seriously disturbing public order had reached more than 100 million people for the first time on record. This means that 1 in every 78 people on earth has been forced to flee. That’s crazy. This means that we are more than likely to encounter people from around the world where we live. And that changes how we go about fulfilling Christ's mission where we are. It means our churches need to rethink who they are ministering to and how they are ministering. It means we need to rethink what God is doing and join Him in it. Listen in as Sam, who is the expert on diaspora Christianity, reveals how God is working in the world and learn how we can join Him in it. Learn more about the Lausanne Movement and Sam. Get Sam's books: Asian Diaspora Christianity, Refugee Diaspora: Missions Amid the Greatest Humanitarian Crisis of the World, Pandemic, Migration, and Mission: Global Reflections for Christian Witness, Understanding the Coconut Generation: Ministry to the Americanized Asian Indians. Check out the episode to learn more about God on the move: #103: David Garrison | Reaching the Nations in Your NeighborhoodSign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!

Jan 6, 2023 • 1h 10min
#143 | Rare Leadership, Pt. 2 | Marcus Warner
Travis Michael Fleming and Marcus Warner engage in a profound exploration of emotional maturity and its profound implications for relational dynamics. Central to this discourse is the assertion that true maturity is characterized by the ability to navigate challenging circumstances while maintaining relational integrity. The conversation delves into the dichotomy between mature leaders, who confront difficulties with relational wisdom, and immature individuals, who prioritize relational comfort at the expense of addressing underlying issues. We examine how emotional capacity and boundaries play critical roles in fostering healthier interactions, emphasizing that maturity is not merely an abstract concept but a practical skill set applicable across various facets of life, including family, work, and community. This episode is an invitation to reflect on how we can cultivate deeper connections and navigate the complexities of our relationships with greater maturity and intention.Part 2! Travis and Marcus continue discussing Marcus' book, Rare Leadership, the book that leaders are picking up and passing around to others. It's about relationships. Marcus brings his gift of creating memorable mnemonic devices such as RARE, CAKE, FISH, and so much more. The difference between a healthy culture and toxic culture in any organization is revealed in the motivation of fear or joy. This book is more than a book simply on leadership, it's a book about relationships the way God intended them to be. It's not about your IQ, natural ability, talents, or how to manipulate people. It's about caring for the people around you. God cares about how we lead in the context of relationships. It's not about results at all costs, but caring about others. This is a conversation for leaders in any context-home, work, and church. If you want to learn more about neurotheology check out our previous conversations: #142: Marcus Warner, Rare Leadership, Pt. 1#141: Jim Wilder, Escaping Enemy Mode, Pt. 2#140: Jim Wilder, Escaping Enemy Mode, Pt. 1#107: Jim Wilder, God on the Brain, Pt. 1#108: Jim Wilder, God on the Brain, Pt. 2#109: Michel Hendricks-Relational Reformation, Pt. 1#110: Michel Hendricks-Relational Reformation, Pt. 2#120 Marcus Warner: Our Walk, Wounds, and Warfare, Pt. 1#121 Marcus Warner: Our Walk, Wounds, and Warfare, Pt. 2Check out Marcus' other books.Learn more about Deeper Walk International.Learn more about Rare Leadership.Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!Takeaways: Emotional maturity enables individuals to navigate difficult relational challenges effectively and constructively. Immature individuals often neglect addressing challenging issues in favor of maintaining superficial relationships. Leadership maturity involves the ability to handle emotional weight and maintain relational integrity amid stress. Healthy relationships are built upon the foundation of joy rather than fear, promoting a supportive community culture. Establishing boundaries is essential for maintaining emotional health and fostering mature leadership dynamics. Developing emotional capacity allows individuals to remain themselves during adversity, promoting resilience in relationships.

Dec 30, 2022 • 41min
#142 | Rare Leadership, Pt. 1 | Marcus Warner
We welcome Marcus Warner back in the studio! Travis and Marcus discuss Marcus' book, Rare Leadership, the book that leaders are picking up and passing around to others. It's more than a book simply on leadership, it's a book about relationships the way God intended them to be. It's not about your IQ, natural ability, talents, or how to manipulate people. It's about caring for the people around you. God cares about how we lead in the context of relationships. It's not about results at all costs, but caring about others. This is a conversation for leaders in any context-home, work, and church. If you want to learn more about neurotheology check out our previous conversations: #141: Jim Wilder, Escaping Enemy Mode, Pt. 2#140: Jim Wilder, Escaping Enemy Mode, Pt. 1#107: Jim Wilder, God on the Brain, Pt. 1#108: Jim Wilder, God on the Brain, Pt. 2#109: Michel Hendricks-Relational Reformation, Pt. 1#110: Michel Hendricks-Relational Reformation, Pt. 2#120 Marcus Warner: Our Walk, Wounds, and Warfare, Pt. 1#121 Marcus Warner: Our Walk, Wounds, and Warfare, Pt. 2Check out Marcus' other books.Learn more about Deeper Walk International.Learn more about Rare Leadership.Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!

Dec 23, 2022 • 56min
#141 | Escaping Enemy Mode, Pt. 2 | Jim Wilder
The second part of our conversation w/Jim Wilder about his newest book, "Escaping Enemy Mode." How do we really love our enemies? What does enemy mode look like? More of that and more on today's Apollos Watered! Help to water thirsty souls around the world by partnering with Apollos Watered and transform your world today!Learn more about Life Model Works.If you want to learn more about neurotheology check out our previous conversations: #140: Jim Wilder, Escaping Enemy Mode, Pt. 1#107: Jim Wilder, God on the Brain, Pt. 1#108: Jim Wilder, God on the Brain, Pt. 2#109: Michel Hendricks-Relational Reformation, Pt. 1#110: Michel Hendricks-Relational Reformation, Pt. 2#120 Marcus Warner: Our Walk, Wounds, and Warfare, Pt. 1#121 Marcus Warner: Our Walk, Wounds, and Warfare, Pt. 2Check out Jim's books.Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.

Dec 16, 2022 • 53min
#140 | Escaping Enemy Mode, Pt. 1 | Jim Wilder
We welcome neurotheologian Jim Wilder back to the show to discuss his newest book, Escaping Enemy Mode. What are the signs of spiritual maturity? Jim believes that it is the ability to endure suffering well, but it also means loving our enemies. How do we do that when we seemingly have enemies everywhere? How do we stand for truth and love them without giving away our convictions? You must listen in to find out! Learn more about Life Model Works.If you want to learn more about neurotheology check out our previous conversations: #107: Jim Wilder, God on the Brain, Pt. 1#108: Jim Wilder, God on the Brain, Pt. 2#109: Michel Hendricks-Relational Reformation, Pt. 1#110: Michel Hendricks-Relational Reformation, Pt. 2#120 Marcus Warner: Our Walk, Wounds, and Warfare, Pt. 1#121 Marcus Warner: Our Walk, Wounds, and Warfare, Pt. 2Check out Jim's books.Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Water thirsty sounds around the world by partnering with Apollos Watered and transform your world today!

Dec 13, 2022 • 20min
#139 | A Well-Watered Life | Joseph's Faith
During the Christmas season, Mary often gets a lot of press, but Joseph's faith often gets overlooked. But was his faith less than hers? You might even say that he had more faith to trust than Mary did. Her too personified a generosity of spirit that we can do well to emulate. But how? Listen in and find out!Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Check out our YouTube channel.Help support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!

Dec 9, 2022 • 50min
#138 | Life, C.S. Lewis, and Stories of Sharing the Gospel, Pt. 2 | Jerry Root
Travis welcomes Jerry Root to the show in this second half of our conversation. In this conversation, Jerry narrows in on evangelism, loving all people, meeting people where they are, C.S. Lewis, and some practical tools for sharing the Gospel in our modern world. It's a conversation that will feed your soul. Learn more about Jerry. Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Check out our YouTube channel.Help support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!