

Ministry Deep Dive
Travis Michael Fleming
Ministry Deep Dive is a podcast from Apollos Watered: The Center for Discipleship & Cultural Apologetics. Each episode goes beneath the surface of ministry to explore the challenges, opportunities, and practices shaping today’s leaders. From discipleship and cultural engagement to spiritual formation and public theology, we wrestle with the big questions and everyday realities pastors, missionaries, and Christian leaders face.
We don’t just talk about church—we talk about the people who lead it and the world that surrounds it. Our approach is missioholistic—a framework we’ve developed to help you faithfully minister in a complex, pluralistic culture that enables you to transform the world.
If you want to grow deeper in your faith, sharpen your leadership, and engage culture with the hope of the gospel, join us for thoughtful conversations that will help you water your world.
We don’t just talk about church—we talk about the people who lead it and the world that surrounds it. Our approach is missioholistic—a framework we’ve developed to help you faithfully minister in a complex, pluralistic culture that enables you to transform the world.
If you want to grow deeper in your faith, sharpen your leadership, and engage culture with the hope of the gospel, join us for thoughtful conversations that will help you water your world.
Episodes
Mentioned books

14 snips
Apr 21, 2023 • 2h 10min
#168 | Revelation Movement | Vishal Mangalwadi
Vishal Mangalwadi, a leading Christian intellectual and author from India, joins to discuss radical shifts in education and faith. He critiques the North American interpretation of the Great Commission, suggesting it has harmed the church's mission. Mangalwadi proposes a 'third education revolution' emphasizing parental involvement and virtual learning environments. He advocates for reforming church education to combat secular influences and highlights the importance of grounding societal values in biblical teachings for true cultural transformation.

Apr 18, 2023 • 55min
#166 | Biblical Critical Theory, Pt. 1 | Christopher Watkin
Have you ever sat in a philosophy class and wondered, "How in the world does this fit within the Gospel?" or "How can I explain the Gospel when it has to answer all these questions?" If you have ever heard the names of Michel Foucault, Jacques Derrida, or Friedrich Nietzsche, then you know that they have a huge role in shaping the thought currents and structures in our world today. Thoughts shape lives and their work has given shape to terms we use every day: postmodernity, post-truth, deconstructionism, relativism, tolerance, etc. Their fingerprints are all over the contemporary thoughts spouted by universities, talk shows, celebrities, and podcasts. Rarely has anyone been able to show how the Bible answers such philosophical questions in a way that engaged believers can understand, but Chris Watkin has done just that with his book, Biblical Critical Theory.Travis and Chris discuss Chris' background, his faith, and Biblical Critical Theory. In this first part of their conversation, Chris lays the groundwork for the book, answers some contemporary objections, and helps us to see how great the Bible is in helping "out-narrate," our late modern world.This is a DEEP conversation and not for the faint of heart, but it is a conversation that will take you deeper into the heart of God, it will help you understand how people have come to view the modern world in which we live as well as shows us how the Bible is still the best story that explains every other story for our lives and how the world is. It's an incredible conversation!Learn more about Chris.Get the book.Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help water-thirsty souls by partnering with Apollos Watered!Takeaways: Travis Michael Fleming and Chris Watkin explore the profound implications of Biblical Critical Theory and its relevance in contemporary society. The central thesis of Watkin's book posits that the Bible offers a coherent narrative that critiques modern philosophical movements. Watkin emphasizes the importance of understanding the Bible as a critical theory, which reveals deeper truths about human nature and society. The discussion highlights how the biblical narrative can out-narrate modern cultural narratives, providing a more comprehensive understanding of reality. Watkin articulates that the Bible's framework critiques contemporary societal norms, making invisible truths visible and valuable. The podcast underscores the necessity of integrating biblical insights into discussions of critical theory for a more robust cultural critique.

Apr 14, 2023 • 44min
#165 | The Thrill of Orthodoxy, Pt. 2 | Trevin Wax
In this second part of our conversation with Trevin Wax, we continue discussing the subject of orthodoxy, denominational issues, how we can tell heresy, doctrinal drift, and how we live in this polarized era. It's a conversation sure to help you stand more confidently upon the Word of God and against error. Check out Trevin's blog at the Gospel Coalition or sign up to be on his email list.Follow Trevin on Twitter or get his books.Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!Travis Michael Fleming and Trevin Wax engage in a profound dialogue regarding the contemporary challenges faced by the Christian community, particularly concerning the pervasive issue of spiritual nourishment. Fleming initiates the conversation with a striking metaphor, likening prevalent Christian teachings to unhealthy junk food, suggesting that many believers are consuming spiritually detrimental content that lacks depth and substance. He emphasizes the urgent need for a spiritual dietary overhaul, proposing that Christians should seek a more wholesome and enriching theological diet, one that fosters genuine growth in faith rather than superficial satisfaction. Throughout their discourse, Fleming and Wax delve into the nuances of orthodoxy, exploring the delicate balance between essential doctrines and secondary issues. They articulate the dangers of drifting from orthodox beliefs, particularly in an increasingly pluralistic society where the lines of truth are often blurred by cultural pressures and individual interpretations.As they navigate these complex themes, the duo reflects on the implications of cultural diversity within Christianity, examining how different ethnic backgrounds and political contexts influence theological perspectives. Wax elucidates the necessity of maintaining a clear distinction between orthodox beliefs and personal convictions, cautioning against conflating secondary issues with core tenets of faith. The dialogue encourages listeners to critically assess their spiritual diets, urging them to cultivate a robust understanding of orthodoxy while remaining vigilant against the allure of doctrinal drift. Ultimately, Fleming and Wax's conversation serves as a clarion call for Christians to pursue a deeper, more authentic engagement with the gospel, one that transcends mere intellectual assent and fosters a vibrant, life-giving faith that can effectively navigate the complexities of modern life.Takeaways: In contemporary Christianity, much of what is taught resembles unhealthy spiritual junk food, requiring discernment for a better diet. The conversation emphasizes the importance of recognizing and addressing heresy within the church, which is often overlooked in modern discourse. A robust understanding of orthodoxy is essential for maintaining the structural integrity of various Christian traditions amidst cultural shifts. The dialogue explores the dangers of prioritizing pragmatic approaches over doctrinal truths, leading to potential spiritual malnutrition in believers. It is crucial to differentiate between errors in theology and heresy, as many errors do not equate to denying fundamental truths of the faith. Engaging with diverse cultural expressions of faith while upholding essential doctrines serves to enrich the Christian community and its witness.

Apr 11, 2023 • 40min
#164 | The Thrill of Orthodoxy, Pt. 1 | Trevin Wax
Travis welcomes Trevin Wax back to the show! Does orthodoxy matter anymore? Or is it only for theologians and academics to quibble over? What role does it play in the life of the everyday believer? Travis welcomes Trevin Wax back to the show as they delve into the subject of orthodoxy. Trevin shows us that rather than being a dry academic exercise, orthodoxy provides the lifeblood of truth and unity in the church that is essential for the church to carry forth its mission. However, there are always threats to orthodoxy and those threats demean not only theological truth but the very nature of who God is, His purposes, and our place within the world today. Check out Trevin's blog at the Gospel Coalition or sign up to be on his email list.Follow Trevin on Twitter or get his books.Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!

Apr 7, 2023 • 7min
#163 | A Good Friday Meditation
On Good Friday there is so much to be said and so much not to be said. Take a moment to be quiet and reflect on what Jesus has done for you.Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!

Apr 4, 2023 • 13min
#162 | A Holy Week Meditation for Those With Compassion Fatigue
With so much going on in Holy Week it's easy to get a bit of compassion fatigue. Take a moment to relax, breathe, and connect with Jesus. Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!

Mar 31, 2023 • 1h 15min
#161 | Inalienable: How Marginalized Kingdom Voices Can Help Save The American Church | Eric Costanzo, Daniel Yang, & Matthew Soerens
Travis welcomes Eric Costanzo, Daniel Yang, & Matthew Soerens to the show to discuss their book, Inalienable: How Marginalized Kingdom Voices Can Help Save The American Church. This is a conversation about biblical hope. Henry Blackaby once said, "Find out where God is working and join him there." That's what this is about. God is working in the nations in a way reminiscent of Revelation 7:9-10 kind of way, "After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes and held palm branches in their hands. And they were shouting with a great roar, 'Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne and from the Lamb!'”God has brought the nations to our shore in the West. And we need to ask ourselves, why? What is God doing and how can we join Him in that? Listen in and find out!Get the book.Read about Daniel.Read about Eric. Read more about Matt and get his book, Welcoming the Stranger.Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!

Mar 28, 2023 • 1h 6min
#160 | Analog Christian | Jay Y. Kim
We welcome Jay Y. Kim back to the show to talk about his new book, Analog Christian. How do we cultivate the fruit of the Spirit in a digitized world? How is our technology forming us? Is it making our lives better or worse or a bit of both? Maybe we should go Amish? It's an entertaining conversation sure to enlighten, challenge, and give you hope. Jay serves as lead pastor of teaching at WestGate Church in the Silicon Valley of CA and teacher-in-residence at Vintage Faith Church in Santa Cruz, CA. Some of his written work has been featured in Christianity Today, The Gospel Coalition, Relevant, Missio Alliance, Outreach, Pastor Resources, and other places.We previously spoke with Jay about his book Analog Church (InterVarsity Press, 2020). It's about the many challenges and opportunities churches face in the digital age, offering a new and hopeful way forward. You can learn more about Jay here. Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!

Mar 24, 2023 • 49min
#159 | What's An Evangelical? It's Complicated, Pt. 2 | Mark Noll
In the second part of our conversation where Travis and Mark continue their discussion of evangelicalism. What happens when what we claim we believe doesn’t match up with the way we live? When we claim to believe in a new birth through Christ but still cling to beliefs, ways of looking at the world and even actions that are a lot worse than problematic? What caused evangelicalism to become so politicized in the US? should we even call ourselves evangelicals anymore?If you thought part one of my conversation with Mark Noll was complicated, well, I hate to say it, but it’s going to get more complicated. We discuss evangelicalism, indigenous peoples, global evangelicalism, and a whole lot more! Mark is one of the leading church historians in the English-speaking world. Recently retired as the Francis A. McAnaney Professor of History at the University of Notre Dame and before that he served as Professor of History and Theological Studies at Wheaton College. His taught courses on American religious and intellectual history, the Reformation, world Christianity, and Canadian history. Dr. Noll has written and edited numerous books, most recently including Evangelicals: Who they Have Been, Are Now, and Could Be (with George Marsden and David Bebbington, Eerdmans, 2019), In the Beginning Was the Word: The Bible in American Public Life (OUP, 2015), From Every Tribe and Nation: A Historian’s Discovery of the Global Christian Story (Baker Academic, 2014), Jesus Christ and the Life of the Mind (Eerdmans, 2011), and Clouds of Witnesses: Christian Voices from Africa and Asia (co-written with Carolyn Nystrom, IVP, 2011). He has also served on the editorial boards for Books & Culture and Christian History, and as co-editor of Library of Religious Biography for Wm. B. Eerdmans. In 2006 he received the National Endowment for the Humanities medal at the White House. Dr. Noll currently lives in Wheaton, Illinois, with his wife, Maggie.Check out Mark's books.Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!

Mar 21, 2023 • 53min
#158 | What's An Evangelical? It's Complicated, Pt. 1 | Mark Noll
We welcome Mark Noll to the show! Travis and Mark discuss evangelicalism, what it is, who fits the label, and what the label means globally speaking. The term "evangelical" has become ubiquitous, with it being coopted by various groups and media to the point that some no longer want to use the term. Should we use it? What does it even mean? And what does it mean for us today? It would be lovely if the lines were nice and neat, but almost like everything else in our world today, it's complicated. Mark is one of the leading church historians in the English-speaking world. Recently retired as the Francis A. McAnaney Professor of History at the University of Notre Dame and before that he served as Professor of History and Theological Studies at Wheaton College. His taught courses on American religious and intellectual history, the Reformation, world Christianity, and Canadian history. Dr. Noll has written and edited numerous books, most recently including Evangelicals: Who they Have Been, Are Now, and Could Be (with George Marsden and David Bebbington, Eerdmans, 2019), In the Beginning Was the Word: The Bible in American Public Life (OUP, 2015), From Every Tribe and Nation: A Historian’s Discovery of the Global Christian Story (Baker Academic, 2014), Jesus Christ and the Life of the Mind (Eerdmans, 2011), and Clouds of Witnesses: Christian Voices from Africa and Asia (co-written with Carolyn Nystrom, IVP, 2011). He has also served on the editorial boards for Books & Culture and Christian History, and as co-editor of Library of Religious Biography for Wm. B. Eerdmans. In 2006 he received the National Endowment for the Humanities medal at the White House. Dr. Noll currently lives in Wheaton, Illinois, with his wife, Maggie.Check out Mark's books.Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!