For The Love With Jen Hatmaker Podcast

When lawyer-turned-writer Gretchen Rubin first came on the show in 2019, we were dazzled by the wisdom and tools she shared on how to live with more contentment, right where we are. A decade ago, Gretchen fancied herself a happy person. She had a job she liked, a husband and two daughters she loved, a life she enjoyed. But one day she found herself wondering, “Could I be happier?” So she set out to change her life—not in a blow-it-all-up-and-move-across-the-world kind of way, but with small steps over one year. Gretchen documented her experiment to live happier in the blockbuster New York Times bestseller The Happiness Project, and has inspired millions to improve their lives and find contentment. Jen and Gretchen talk about why it’s okay to pursue happiness in a world filled with hard things, and the little ways we can reach for a richer, more satisfying life. Gretchen shows how easy it is to work “happiness habits” into our lives (Jen adopted one immediately after this interview!) and how these small steps can yield big, long-term results. And don’t forget to check out Gretchen’s latest book Outer Order, Inner Calm. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! ThirdLove | Get 15% off your first order at thirdlove.com/forthelove KiwiCo | Get 30% off your first month, plus FREE shipping on any crate line at kiwico.com/forthelove Stamps.com | Start your 4-week trial (plus, get free postage and a digital scale) at stamps.com, and enter FORTHELOVE To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When our third Summer Best Of teacher speaks, people listen—and we couldn’t forget the powerful words she shared on For the Love in 2019. Raised a Southern Baptist, as she grew older Kaitlin Curtice began to explore her family’s rich history in the Potawatomi Citizen Band. Kaitlin tells us what life is like as an indigenous woman in the United States today, how she’s teaching her kids about their heritage and how we can rally around teachers of color during their hardest moments. Kaitlin reminds us we have a responsibility to incorporate a wide range of voices into our world and remember the power of empathizing with an experience different from our own. One of the most poignant lessons she gives us: God is is inviting us into the sacred, and it’s not in a far-off sunbeam or reserved for the church pew—the sacred is all around us, from the daffodils on the street corner to the popsicle-stained smile of our kid, even as we are consoled in our pain and grief. God’s glory is in everyone and everything. We only need eyes to see it. Be sure to check out her new book “Native.” * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Noom |Start your trial today at noom.com/forthelove Rothy’s |Check out all the amazing shoes (and bags!) available right now at rothys.com/forthelove BetterHelp | Take charge of your mental health—get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/forthelove To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Our second Summer Best Of guest is a teacher who taught us how to embrace peace with others, but also within ourselves. Osheta Moore is a writer, speaker, podcaster, and a faith groundbreaker. She’s also a powerful leader on racial reconciliation and equality, and through it all, she teaches that God wants each of us to be whole, vibrant, and flourishing. In her book and podcast called Shalom Sistas, Osheta breaks down 12 ways we can turn “shalom” into an action. She shows us how to become peacemakers in our everyday lives—not just with each other, but with ourselves and with God. Osheta shows us that peace is more than just a feeling. It’s the belief that God created us perfectly, just as we are, and the bodies that we live and practice shalom in, from the color of our skin to the shape of our hips, are wholly good. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Ancestry | Get your AncestryDNA kit and start your free trial at ancestry.com/forthelove Green Chef | Get $80 off your first month plus free shipping on your first box at greenchef.com/forthelove80 Camano Island Coffee | Sign up for the Coffee Lovers Membership and get $20 off your first shipment at camanoislandcoffee.com/forthelove To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Ever wish you had a toolkit tailor-made to get you through 2020? Us too. That’s why we pulled together a few of our favorite teachers who have graced the podcast over the years, so we can brush up on the important lessons they taught us and tools they gave us to meet this moment. First up is the matriarch of our favorite “What is saving your life right now?” question—Barbara Brown Taylor! Barbara is a New York Times bestselling author, teacher, and Episcopal priest, and she came on the show during our “For the Love of Exploring Our Faith” series in 2018. Her book Learning to Walk in the Dark was featured on the cover of TIME Magazine, and in 2014, TIME also included her on its annual list of Most Influential People (PS she also appeared on Super Soul Sunday with Oprah, so no big deal).  Long a favorite author of Jen’s, Barbara has a unique way of sharing essential truths about beauty and about God, and shows us that it cannot be contained inside any walls that people build. Her view is that Jesus “placed higher value on human relationships than on religion. He never told His followers to love their religion—just their neighbors, their enemies, and God." * * * Thank you to our sponsors! BetterHelp | Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/forthelove Ancestry | Get your AncestryDNA kit and start your free trial at ancestry.com/forthelove Camano Island Coffee | Sign up for the Coffee Lovers Membership and get $20 off your first shipment at camanoislandcoffee.com/forthelove To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

To close our spectacular Enneagram series, last but certainly not least (we promise, Nines!), we’re diving into the earnest and endearingly sincere Peacemakers with Jen’s wonderful friend and all-around good human, author Sarah Bessey. Fondly called the crown of the Enneagram, Type Nines have the gift to be fully empathetic, to love and accept without judgement because they can see others as made in God’s image. For a Nine, everyone belongs. This type may seem slow to move sometimes—that’s because they’re content to live in this very moment. Sarah demonstrates the ways that Nines can be mediators, but she also shares how a Nine’s shadow side leans away from conflict and into numbness and routine, pushing them to be a little sloth-like. In their unhealthiest state, a Nine’s identity morphs into whoever’s surrounding them at the moment. But as they grow, Nines realize they don’t have to sacrifice who they are just to keep the peace—their voices are valuable and deserve to be heard. Stay tuned ‘til the end to hear how Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping at Last) created a piece that was extremely vulnerable and painfully honest, as he had to confront his own weaknesses as a type Nine in order to grow into his full potential.* * *Thank you to our sponsors!Laurel Springs | Register your child at laurelsprings.com/forthelove today and receive a waived registration feeKiwiCo | Get 30% off your first month on select crates at kiwico.com/fortheloveThirdLove | Get 15% off your first order at thirdlove.com/forthelove To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Make way for the Enneagram Eights! On this week’s episode, we get to chat with not one, but two experts about the steely armor and tender insides that make up The Challengers, as they’re sometimes called. Sarajane Case of Enneagram & Coffee helps us unpack the hallmark characteristic of an Eight—their strength—and reveals that an Eight’s strength typically stems from childhood happenings that trigger the notion that they have to take care of themselves, which they can also wrap around their loved ones and those in need. This protective instinct means that Eights aren’t intimidated by opposition, but they do fear being betrayed or controlled—and when that happens, it can appear that Eights don’t need a shoulder to lean on. But, as Sarajane shows us, in order to love an Eight well, they need to see strength in us so that they can release the heavy responsibility they feel to carry the world’s weight on their shoulders. Abi Robins of Conscious Enneagram shares their expertise as not only an Eight themselves, but also as a teacher of The Narrative Enneagram. Abi also breaks down a new-to-us Enneagram term called “subtypes,” of which there are three—self-preservation, one-to-one, and social—and shows how these subtypes affect the way our Enneagram numbers play out in the world. Abi opens up about the incredible resilience that Eights possess and vulnerably shares what type Eight growth looks like to someone with a marginalized identity. Abi explains that a heated exchange that may look like an argument to some types is just a problem-solving, connective conversation to an Eight, and how that willingness to engage with an Eight, even when it’s messy, is the key to unlocks an Eight’s trust. Make sure you listen all the way through the hear how composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping at Last) created a piece as strong as the Eights are, with a little touch of vulnerability that those who are close to Eights are lucky enough to glimpse.* * *Rothy's | Check out all the stylish and sustainable shoes (and amazing bags!) at rothys.com/fortheloveBetterHelp | Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/fortheloveStamps.com | Start your 4-week trial (plus, get free postage and a digital scale) at stamps.com, and enter FORTHELOVE  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Enneagram Sevens! You can’t say it without an exclamation point, right? This week we look at what many consider to be the most “fun” number on the Enneagram—known as The Enthusiasts for good reason! To guide us is a true Seven among Sevens and friend of the podcast, Bob Goff. Bob is a man of many hats—attorney, honorary consul, author, and humanitarian, to name a few. He’s here to share about the power of a Seven’s joy, their ability to have big dreams and ideas, and that a Seven’s enthusiasm isn’t as spontaneous as you would think—there’s planning and thought behind it. As part of the thinking triad, these joyful strategists are full of situational awareness. They’re in tune with examining why they do the things they do, but they also carry a deep fear of rejection. Sevens possess a beautiful, natural curiosity about possibilities. They’re excellent at saying, “Let’s just see what will happen . . .” and they’re brave enough to take those chances. Sevens strive for meaning, not just surface-level joy. As Jen puts it, “These are people that really come alongside the rest of us and go, ‘What's your dream? You can do this.’” Also, if you stick around to the end of the episode, you’ll be delighted to hear composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping at Last) talk about how he crafted a piece for Sevens inspired by Disney classics like Peter Pan and Inside Out—and you’ll hear Bob Goff himself, who contributed his own ukulele stylings to the piece (such a Seven thing to do!).   * * *Thank you to our sponsors!FabFitFun | Get $10 off your first box when you go to https://fabfitfun.com and use the code FTL at checkoutJen Hatmaker Book Club | Join today at https://jenhatmakerbookclub.comJo Saxton Leadership Coaching | Sign up for a 30-day trial (and access the workshop led by Be the Bridge’s LaTasha Morrison) at http://josaxtonleadershipcoaching.com/forthelove To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On this incredibly meaningful, special bonus episode of For the Love, in honor of Pride Month, a mother and daughter come together to have a frank and beautiful conversation about what it’s like to grow up as the daughter of a popular Christian author and speaker and in a household steeped in the church . . . and realize you’re gay. This is Jen and Sydney Hatmaker’s experience—and in this episode, Sydney and her mom tell their story so that parents, family, and friends of LGBTQ+ kids who need trustworthy voices to lead them into love and affirmation will find hope here. Sydney bravely and tenderly shares how she grappled with reconciling her sexuality and her spirituality, all the while wondering if God would still love her if she decided to build a life where she could be who she was meant to be. The pair candidly discuss Sydney’s initial silent journey and Jen’s deep regret at not being more aware of what her daughter needed during these early days as Sydney wrestled alone with who she was. Jen and Sydney make a call to Christians to look at what it means to really love our LGBTQ+ family: recognizing them wholly as God’s children, who are wholly loved by God. Sydney also gives us insight into how we can come alongside our LGBTQ+ family by showing us what meaningful allyship looks like: supporting and protecting those who are subject to marginalization with tangible actions filled with love. * * *Thank you to our episode sponsors!Ancestry | Get your AncestryDNA kit and start your free trial at ancestry.com/fortheloveQueer RelationTips Podcast | Listen and subscribe today, wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On today’s peek behind the Enneagram curtain, we get to learn all about Type Sixes—the Loyalists—and what makes them tick. Graphic designer, Enneagram artist, and Disney cast member Ashton Brye shares how she discovered the Enneagram, applied her own artistic and pop culture spin on it, and voila! Her Instagram following @ashton.creates skyrocketed, all born out of her desire to learn more about all the Enneagram types. As a Six herself, Ashton breaks down for us how Sixes have a deep longing for safety and security, which they find through preparedness. Unfortunately, that need to be on top of things can often be mistakenly labeled for anxiety and fear. Sixes are crazy loyal and responsible, and they value structure. As Ashton shares, when a Six goes in on something, they go all in--which is why they make excellent friends. Ashton talks a little bit about how it’s hard for Sixes to turn their minds off and relax without thinking about what needs to get done in the future, that for Sixes, it’s a balance of learning what can wait. In conflict, like in everything else they do, Sixes are all in, and they crave reassurance from others that you aren’t going to leave them. And PS: don’t forget to stick around until the end of the episode to hear composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping at Last) talk about how he crafted a soothing, safe, and whimsical musical piece inspired by type Sixes.  * * *Thank you to our sponsors!Noom | Start your trial today at noom.com/fortheloveBetterHelp | Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/fortheloveLaurel Springs | Register your child at laurelsprings.com/forthelove today and receive a waived registration fee To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today we begin a deep dive into the head triad, starting with Type Fives—the Investigators. And because there’s so much to learn about the complex Fives, we have not one but two guests to share their input: Enneagram expert Dr. Avon Manney, and podcaster/author/Enneagram Five Knox McCoy. Dr. Avon (a Nine married to a Five!) shares how she started applying the Enneagram to her osteopathy practice so she could help patients heal emotional issues that were manifesting in her patients’ bodies. She talks about how Fives are explorers who want to know how and why things work the way they do. Taking Dr. Avon’s insights a step further and giving us a peek under the hood, Knox explains how that exploration shows up in his own life—as a Five, he’s motivated to make sure he shows up as competent and prepared in every situation. Knox also breaks down something Fives suffer from called “catastrophic depletion,” which basically means Fives have a limited energy reservoir, and once it’s gone for the day, it is gone. As profoundly efficient fixers, Fives possess a beautiful clarity of thought, a thirst for knowledge, and an unparalleled loyalty for those they love. And just wait until you make it to the end, when we hear from composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping At Last), about how he completed a music piece inspired by Fives—his longest piece in the whole series!* * *Thank you to our sponsors!Ancestry | Head to ancestry.com/forthelove to get your AncestryDNA kit and start your free trial. KiwiCo | Get 30% off your first month on select crates at kiwico.com/forthelove. Laurel Springs | Register your child at laurelsprings.com/forthelove today and receive a waived registration fee. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices