Trapital

A lot of creators talk about owning their intellectual property and distribution, but co-hosts of the For Colored Nerds podcast — Eric Eddings and Brittany Luse — actually went and made it happen, by any means necessary. The two left the Spotify-owned Gimlet Media network in 2020, leaving behind The Nod show (and its IP) which they had built up since 2017. As “free agents”, the duo made ownership a mandate in its next podcast deal.Stitcher was happy to oblige, bringing the two together in a homecoming of sorts. Before Gimlet, Eric and Brittany began podcasting with Stitcher which included the first iteration of the For Colored Nerds podcast. Now it’s back in its second form — still with a heavy dose of discourse about the intersection of pop and Black culture, but now with a dash of personal opinions from the two on ongoing issues as they see it.For Colored Nerds is one example of how the media industry is transforming in real-time. While Eric and Brittany got what they wanted, it wasn’t easy. The two joined me on this episode of Trapital to discuss this laborious process that included lawyers and agents — two things most creators aren’t privy to. Here’s everything we discussed in this episode:[3:07] Why Choose Stitcher Over Other Networks? [5:52] Changing Landscape Of Creator Ownership[9:22] Biggest Barriers To Having A Fair Contract[11:31] Will Future Podcast Networks Embrace Creator Ownership?[18:23] How Does The Podcast Balance What Topics To Discuss On The Show?[22:10] What Makes Podcasting So Special[28:51] The Polarization Of Tyler Perry [37:06] The Perils Of An “Elitist” Mindset[42:28] Relationship With Present-Day Music Compared To Past Favorites[49:23] Knowing Your AudienceThis episode is brought to you by Koji, the best “link in bio” tool. It is trusted by Grammy winners, chart-topping hitmakers, and more. Join 185,000+ creators. Check it out for free: koji.to/trapitalpodcastListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Brittany Luse, IG: @bmluse | Eric Eddings, Twitter: @eeddings | For Colored Nerds Podcast, IG & Twitter: @ForColoredNerds  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands_____Eric Eddings 00:00What the industry kind of needs to understand is that people now, like, require that flexibility. Because so many creators understand different parts of the trajectory. Everybody's not necessarily trying to be, you know, at the pinnacle of podcasts or like on the front page of, you know, iTunes every single day. There are different levels. Some people are having a podcast, they want it as a significant companion to maybe something else that they're building. And so they understand what place that podcast could fit into their lives and into their brand or ecosystem.Dan Runcie 00:38Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.On today's episode, I'm joined by Brittany Luse and Eric Eddings. They're the host of the podcast, For Colored Nerds, which peels back the layers of black culture. I've been following Brittany and Eric's work for a while now, back when they had their podcast on gimlet media, The Nod. And they also had the Quibi Show after that. And they recently relaunched their old podcast, For Colored Nerds. So we talked about that, we talked about the journey and how Brittany and Eric have been so open and transparent about podcast ownership and some of the back and forth challenges that have happened not just with them, but with other podcasters that ultimately what they hope to see in this industry in the future. We also talked a bit more about how they go about thinking of their content, some of the common themes that they'll discuss on the shows, and one of the things that they discuss, which is a topic I've often discussed on Trapital as well is Tyler Perry. If you've read through Apple, you know that I'm more so, talking about Tyler for what he's achieved from a business perspective, which I've always found inspiring and great. But on the content side, it's a little different, because I think many people do have some conflicting opinions about how he's gone about things that he put out, and, but also recognizing that there was an audience that Tyler has unapologetically been willing to serve, and what that means for him as a business leader, and how that obviously has led to his success. So we talked a lot about that. And we also talked more broadly about hip hop as well. Folks like us, who I think grew up in the 90s and 2000s, and may still resonate with so many of the artists from that era, how do we relate to current day hip hop? And is it our place to relate to some of the current artists? So we talk about that, and a whole lot more. Here's my chat with Brittany and Eric. All right, today, we got Brittany and Eric from the For Colored Nerds Podcast. I’ve been a big fan. I've been following their work for a while, and also their journey. And before we start, I do just want to say thank you to both of you, because I feel like you've been so open about so much in the podcasting space. And I think a lot of people learned a lot from that. So thank you both it’s much appreciated.Brittany Luse 03:00Thank you.Eric Eddings 03:01Thank you for having us. Yeah, it's been a wild ride in this industry. But it's been good. Dan Runcie 03:07Definitely. And I know for you that your journey has been well documented, you're back on the podcast that you had started years back with For Colored Nerds. And now you're with Stitcher, and I'd love to start there because I'm sure that you got hit up by a number of different outlets or networks that likely wanted to partner with y'all. What was it about stitcher that made you want to work with them?Eric Eddings 03:31Wow. I mean, I felt like there was a lot I mean. To your point, we did a bit of the tour, I guess you could say, in terms of meeting with tons of distributors, you know, after our Quibi show kind of wound down after, hell, after Quibi. Went down a rabbit...Brittany Luse 03:47It happens on the same day.Eric Eddings 03:50Yeah, exactly. But no, with Stitcher, I think there were a few things that lined up pretty quickly. They were the only ones who who started the conversation, knowing that we were coming in with a desire to own our show, which is funny, because as to your point before, like, we have been very open about like some of the conflicts that we you know, had around pursuing ownership in particular. And so I think like that changed the conversation in a way where we then, actually, could talk more freely and comfortably about what we wanted the show to be, you know, because again, there was not that fear of like, you know, will it be ours? And will we maybe have to make something different, you know, after the fact if we don't own and kind of control that so I think that was like one big piece of it. I'm curious Brittany, like what you would addBrittany Luse 04:37I mean, a big part of it, too, is like the team. I mean, one of the people that we got to you know, talk with coming into Stitcher when we were just sort of in the initial feeling each other out stage is someone who turned out to be the cousin of someone we met a few years ago and like hit it off with, Natalie Well who's amazing, she's literally just made us feel comfortable from like moment one. Also Peter Clowney, who is, Eric knows this, proper title. I feel terrible because I can't remember anyone's proper title. Because Eric works at Stitcher as an executive, and I am but a lowly, what's the word? I paid a vendor, I'm a vendor. And so I'm not always proven everything happens within a company. Peter Clowney, who is like I think the VP of content at Stitcher, he was the very first editor that I ever had, like podcast editor, like the very first edit. And it is like a term in podcasting, where the team will sit and listen, or be sent a version of an episode, and leave comments and share them with each other in order to make the episode better and get to that next draft. The first time I ever did that, was with Peter Clowney and that was 2015. So, you know, I have this full-circle moment when in 2021, he's the person who's really extending the offer for us to come and join Stitcher. That just felt really, right. Brittany Luse 05:52Also, you know, we first launched For Colored nerds with Stitcher, we have an incredible executive producer, Kameel Stanley, who is basically like a legend of public radio in St. Louis and is just a hell of an executive producer. She, I mean, she kept like, the first I think we had her for what, maybe three, four months, when we were first really ramping up, she kept things together, and she kept things moving. Yeah. And she was somebody who we had already, we've been interviewed by before, I think the previous year with regard to rights and ownership and IP and everything like that. She is just a fantastic journalist and just was such an amazing guide. So it was just so amazing to have this experience where we had so many sharp people who we had either met before had a relationship with before or had a meaningful link to coming in. And it just kind of made things feel a lot more familiar. And also to they were just fast. They're just fast. They were like, yeah, they followed up, they were fast. And they were, I don't know, I mean, I think in so many areas of life, like somebody like the person who's just eager to follow up with you and eager to form that connection or cement that relationship. That's usually the person that you want to go with.Dan Runcie 07:02That makes sense. Yeah, I hear the relationship side of it. I also hear the ownership side of it too. And especially with the way things are shifting now, sometimes it's still so shocking that it is still such a charged or controversial thing for whether it's podcasters writers or creators in any type of shape too, what, I mean, you're coming in, you have a base, you have plenty of leverage, like how is this still one of these discussions where they want 100% of the thing, and there's not even a discussion about shared or what that could look like. And I mean, it's not just, you always see this at the highest levels, whether it's I think, was  Michaela Coel, when she was talking about I May Destroy You when she was going back and forth, whether it was Netflix or HBO on wanting a slice, like, this is something that is clearly a challenge and a difficult thing for people at every scale of this game.Eric Eddings 07:54I mean, the industry is shifting, and you know, depending upon what side of the Creator versus like, you know, distributor network, you're on, you maybe view how fast that industry is shifting differently. You know? And it's something that I think the industry has to do a better job at understanding. People are more literate about the trials and tribulations and pitfalls that you can run into trying to create something, and trying to create something that like is distributed to other people, wherever podcasts, movies, music, you know, I'm saying like, we all have the same internet, and like, we've all read the stories and the features. And so people know more of what to ask for. And, you know, the reasons they might have received before about why they, you know, could not or maybe should not deserve, like, you know, the rights to their own content are starting to, you know, finally feel frivolous. And so, you know, I think that thing is changing, I think it is still though a game of leverage, and it's still, you know, depends on what you have in your corner, sadly, to be able to kind of push the issue, you know, with the distributor, with just whoever you're partnering with to be able to get what you want. And yeah, there sadly, is still a lot of.. We got reached out to today about this same, this very same issue. And it's that's something that happens fairly frequently. So there's a lot of work that still has to happen.Dan Runcie 09:15And on that note, is it people reaching out to you asking you for advice to be like, Hey, I know you all want Yes. Any thoughts?Brittany Luse 09:22Yes. I mean, yeah, emails, text messages, phone calls, DMS, I had somebody reach out to me via text on behalf of one of their friends yesterday, wondering about the same thing. And I mean, there's, you know, we try to give as much advice as we can. But at the end of the day, the best advice you can get in those situations definitely comes from like a legal professional. Typically, those are the people that you want to defer to. We are not we are not those. That's why sometimes I podcast people like what would you guys see what I'm like, You know what, I am not in the business of giving legal advice, but my biggest piece of legal advice is to get a lawyer. But yeah, I mean, obviously I share a little bit more people than that. But yeah, I think because we've been so open, sometimes people that we do not even know will reach out to us out of the blue, just to be like, Hey, this is something that I know that you went through, do you have 5, 10, 15, 30 minutes to talk with me and kind of guide me through this process? I mean, I will say the thing that I always say, which is that these contracts should not be so difficult that a regular person could not pick up and read them. I think that there's obviously how do I put it, I mean, a barrier to being able to have a fair contract is having the financial resources and also the institutional knowledge relationships, to be able to get a lawyer like that something that we did not have, I don't think I know when I first started working at Gimlet back in 2015. I didn't have the financial resources to hire a lawyer. Yeah, it wasn't an option, I wouldn't have known how to find an entertainment lawyer. Because before then, I was working as like, I mean, marketing manager was the title, but that didn't line up with what I was doing at my job. So yeah, I wouldn't have had like the relationships, the understanding, I wouldn't have known how to find an entertainment lawyer. And I definitely didn't have the money coming into working there to have that. So I think that like, you know, there is a certain level of like, eat, we're all being finessed a little bit, by the fact that people have to get not feel like they have to, but really, truly have to have agents and lawyers and money upfront, to be able to spend on having somebody basically be their pitbull, and get into the ring and fight for the contract that they deserve.Dan Runcie 11:31Yeah, it's interesting with podcasting, specifically, because I look at the music industry, or even with writing to some extent, I have seen a few more of these hybrid models where it's okay, you can release your music on this platform, we offer a little bit more of a distribution push and a little bit more of a network per se than you would get if you just did it solely on your own. But you could still maintain the ownership, we just get, you know, a set cut or whatever it is. And we've seen this in music, whether it's record labels like Empire that started with a similar type of mindset, or some of the others, even with writing, I've started to see some creative things. But with podcasting, specifically, it may be part of it's just, I haven't seen it myself and what I've seen, but I still haven't quite seen that network that is being ready to be as front and center be like, Hey, we're here, if you want to do an exclusive deal, but you maintain your ownership and we do a licensing deal, we could do that. Or if you want to have a set split, this is what our network is known for. I haven't quite seen that same thing in podcasting. And obviously, I know part of the challenge is the value is the ownership that they have because then they can go get sold to whoever, but I think part of me still waiting to see that, like, is that going to be a standard for one of the next, you know, rising networks.Brittany Luse 12:51We are waiting to see thatEric Eddings 12:56Everybody's watching. Yeah, I mean, look, there are networks. I mean, even Stitcher, I don't say this, you know, to not trying to be like a corporate shill, but like, you know, we engage a bunch of different types of deals. Yeah, I work as a creative executive there. And, you know, so what that means is like, there are some things that we, you know, own outright, there are some things that stitcher owns outright, there are some things that you know, they license, you know, and just rip the ads, there are some things that you know, are hybrid, I think what you don't want, even that, for its worth is actually can be rare to have all those different types of like deals. But I think in general, what the industry kind of needs to understand is that people now, like, require that flexibility, because, you know, so many creators understand different parts of the trajectory, you know, everybody's not necessarily trying to be, you know, at the pinnacle of, you know, podcasts or like, on the front page of, you know, iTunes every single day, there are different levels, some people are having the podcast, they want it as a significant companion to maybe something else that they're building. And so they understand what place that podcast could fit into their life and into their, you know, brand or ecosystem. And the company that is willing to like, be most flexible to that is going to get that person you know, like, because they're creating that comfort, they're creating that like space to say like, I want to work with you so much of entertainment, what people haven't realized behind the scenes, it's not necessarily I want to work with you, it kind of wants to work for them, you know, and to that degree, like, you know, your contract reflects that. And I'm so excited by the shift that I see kind of happening in all entertainment-related industries. We're seeing a lot more, hell, sports, you know, we just see a lot more creator or athlete lead, you know, like deals but things were basically the power in the leverage is becoming more equal, slowly. Brittany Luse 14:54I think the thing that's tricky for me is the deals that are fair and reasonable exist, and I'll say that we received a pretty good one from Stitcher. I mean, like from jump, when we received the contract, it was like, all fit on one page, double triple space. It was mostly plain English. I understood it when I read it. And we felt good about it. And it felt like it was befitting of like, how much air can I put into the show? And who really owns it? And I will say like, it was really nice to get that deal now, but my hope is like, you know, people are like, when will we get there? What do you think 'there' is there for me quote, unquote, there for me is when me and Eric back in 2014, we first started the show would have been handed a deal like the one we got last year in 2021. And so like a or even back in 2017, when we first launched The Nod, me and Eric at that point was been given new contracts. Because then that very clearly showed that was really the DNA it was based off For Colored Nerds, come on a show about Black culture hosted by me and Eric, now we based it off of something else. Are you kidding me? That's what it was. I think that that to me is like when the equity has really gotten there, and it is going to take time, I wish that it didn't take the time it is going to take time. Brittany Luse 14:54But even I will say this though, there are people usually like white, a lot of times male. And I was gonna say like, usually they have a large following. But sometimes it's like, I don't even know if that's what's going into the business decision that's being made when somebody you know, offers, like some white guy who has a podcast a bunch of money to be able to, like make that thing forever gives that person a really good deal, or some sort of like exclusive, you know, whatever. There are people who have been getting fair deals all this time. I just would like to see sort of like the bar for that either be lower to just like I say lower, I mean, just like allowing more people in right now the bar is basically like, are you why are you guy? Are you famous? Or like, yes. Do you want to share my microphone, I would like to see sort of rather, I would like to see that avenue broadened. And that's what I mean, when we're there, like Success for me is just like not having to have relationships years in the game, or be like a white guy with a podcast to be able to get access to the type of deal that we have now.Dan Runcie 17:19Yeah. And I think that framing makes complete sense. Right? When you first started this and had the idea, you should have had this in place. And then further when you're signing a deal with Gimlet or even you know, with Quibi, or whoever. There's enough, not just you know, layman's terms, but there's also just enough commonality that those things can happen. And I think that also makes me think a bit about the show itself. And maybe just some of the slight differences between The Nod and For Colored Nerds, The Nod, at least my impression is always a bit more like, hey, here is the latest thing that is happening right now in black culture. And here's our take on it. Well, let's discuss it, I think For Colored Nerds has that as well. But I think you also mix in some evergreen topics that have always come in which I think I always enjoy hearing. And I'm curious, from your perspective, how has the process been about determining the topics of that balance, because I'm sure there are the evergreen topics that you may want to hit. There are also timely things that likely you may want to dive into. But then you also, you know, have things that you're just personally interested in compared to what you may know, the audience would really want to hear or what you know what drives engagement. So yeah, how was that, balancing that piece of the event for you?Eric Eddings 18:39You don't know how timely that question is. Because we are always kind of managing our relationship with it. It is a balance. And it's a conversation that is kind of always happening. I think, to start where you did in terms of the comparison, I think how we thought about The Nod is more so we were trying to reflect what we saw. And I think For Colored Nerds is more definitively how we think if that makes any sense. I didn't and I know Brittany, you might disagree, but Yes, just now. Yeah. But when we're thinking about that conversation, basically how we think and how to reflect that to our audience, you know, we are looking at things that like could or either maybe a lot of things start evergreen and become more topical, if that makes any sense. Because also that's kind of how I think our conversations often work we're just kind of talking about things that we've noticed or things that we've seen and they start to kind of build momentum towards like something that could be like on the show and like with it, for example, we consume dating reality shows at an unhealthy clip, we are committed to that genre. And you know, we're always kind of talking about like what we saw how we feel about you know, any given show or episode and it's starting to kind of come to the point, I have this idea that feels like a connects kind of like what I think about all those things, and then bringing like what or, you know, I actually had This idea I was thinking this. And so we start to build that for the episode. And then as we get closer to, you know, having the conversation, we start to realize like, Okay, well, what are the things happening right now that relate to this larger conversation? How can we incorporate that and you know, that changes things as well? So we're always shuffling Jesus, always shuffling our calendar, because that process changes, you know, you might the Evergreen thing might need more time to become a little topical, the topical thing, you know, feel too much like a flash in the pan need to be more evergreen. So, you know, shout out to our producer Alexis, for, you know, really like just kind of rolling with how much of the changes we, you know, sometimes need to make to the schedule. But if we're in conversation with our audience, we want to make sure that we're reacting to that in as healthy a way as possible.Brittany Luse 20:49Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's tricky. Just because like, on one hand, I don't know podcasting is so interesting in that it is one of the few truly long-form digital media. So you know what I mean? Like, other than maybe, like, reading long-form journalism, which I think we've learned over time, not everybody does. That's part of the reason why we've gotten to the place that we are in society right now. Podcasts are digital, and so on some level, they can feel kind of ephemeral, but they live on the internet for so long, in like a well-indexed, centralized place. And they're long. People will listen to two hours. I mean, people I mean, me, I will listen to two hours, that type of just BS, like nothing, like people just talking about old gossip. Like, I have no problem that, for me is something that I totally enjoy. And there's so many, the success of so many shows out there is really just people wanting to listen to someone talk sometimes regardless of whether it's evergreen or of the moment. And so it's tricky, because like we do find ourselves straddling that line a lot of the time, sometimes, I think we managed to like really kind of, like get it really right and hit something at that moment where it just feels really fresh, you know, and really, like well thought out, even though it's coming out like right, as the moment that sounds like something is kind of cresting out there in the zeitgeist. But I mean, that still is kind of like at odds with how we think about engaging some of the topics that we do on our show, you know, we try to be thoughtful, we try to be careful in making sure that we're expressing ourselves in a way that's clear in a way that's not going to be harmful to others, in a way that's going to be entertaining. And that does take time. So sometimes, you know, sometimes we'll be chasing our tails a little bit. Trying to get stuff out the door. Yeah, but I don't know, it's like, we try to have even some of our most topical episodes still have that sustenance to them, that will get somebody to want it, you know, come back and listen to it for a second, third, fifth time, or even discover it three, four months down the line, even our most topical of the moment episodes, have that extra something to them, that keeps people you know, feeling engaged long after the moment of that episode has passed. Dan Runcie 23:06For me the episode that you all did that. I think it's that exact point, Brittany, is the Girlboss in the City episode. I feel like when I heard that, I wanted to listen, because I was like, Wait, is this what I think should be by the terrible? Okay, well elicited a demo, I heard I was like, Okay, I see the trend. That makes sense. Okay. Like, and then, you know, just hearing, you know, your take, and I know, you know, just some of the other examples, I'm like, Yes, like, that makes 100% sense. And I think what makes it resonate, not just is it the trend itself, but it also I think, as a listener for me makes me think about, okay, what are some other trends that are like that, because I think so many of the things that we may think may be celebratory, especially in this past six years, where I think we've seen a great influx of more black media and more black representation, especially whether it's with your Netflix or with your streaming services. That said, there are still plenty of, you know, opportunities and holes and tropes and things to push back on. So I've been thinking about that piece ever since you all put that up.Eric Eddings 24:09Thankfully, like, it was one of the things, most of our episodes, also when we're making them, I don't know if Brittany feels this way, but I often feel a bit kind of crazy, because we'll have an idea. It's not like we don't really deal and hot takes that's kind of why Brittany was like, you know, we take our time we try to make sure we're, you know, fair, we do our research. And so, you know, sometimes when we come upon a thing where we're like, Okay, now this is the take, and we see this trend, we feel like we can define it and then there's that moment actually right after in between having recorded or talk through the episode that we're going to record and it coming out where I feel crazy because now I'm like, I see it everywhere. And it doesn't it's like you know, like almost like they live where you have the sunglasses all you see like people as aliens. It's kind of like that. And so, you know, with that episode it was really exciting to kind of make those types of connections. Because like that genre I have been consuming not as a genre, I have been just like catching pieces of it. And it wasn't until like being in conversation with Britney, that I'm realizing, Wait, this is a genre. And you know, when you're thinking about that, that means something might change in terms of how you consume it. And so like, you know, a lot of the surprise I had or like, I was, you know, Brittany was explaining this thing or how she feels about her genre before it's worth, as you hear me, I'm coming to it, you know, I'm saying like, I am embracing it to kind of formulate my own ideas. And I think, yeah, I think the audience appreciates being able to hear kind of both sides of that, like the person who has, like, you know, who feels like they, they know, their I know my shit, I have figured it out, I see it, and then that person's like, Well, wait, actually, oh, shit. Like, you know, like that tug of war, I think can be really, really fun. It happens in so many different ways. Like, you know, back and forth, which is, you know, part of what's so fun about show.Brittany Luse 26:00Yeah, I'm really glad that you respond to that episode, because, like, sometimes, we'll be putting stuff out and it's like, okay, I know this is interesting to me. Like, you know, like, Oh, get out here on a limb talking about you know, all these white women and Sex in the City on this For Colored Nerds show you know, I'm like, how are people going to respond? We did an episode more recently about me looking at like moms throughout pop culture and how my favorite mom on TV right now is Pamela Adlon on better things, a white woman. And I'm like, I tweeted before the episode came out, I was like, Look, by these episodes, gonna be bought one of my favorite white women, but I need y'all to trust me. And it came out on March 1, and someone tried to catch me they were like, don't do this during Black History Month. And I was like, it's gonna be March 1. But yeah, I mean, sometimes it's a little, it's a little stressful to think about, you know, like, we have so many conversations, me and Eric, and also us with Alexis William, our producer, like we have so many conversations as a team. Just like pinging things back and forth, we have a group chat, where we send articles, messy stuff from the internet, Twitter, beef. I'd like to talk about this thing. It said, when we have episodes like that, it sometimes feels like we're like letting people into like, I don't know, it's like opening up your medicine cabinet, or you're like utility closet for somebody, it's like I'm going to show you something might be a little weird, but we'll see how you respond. So it's really nice to hear from you. Like, as somebody who is like both has their finger on the pulse of what's happening, sort of like immediate entertainment. But also you don't strike me as much of a Girlboss. But it's nice to know that you felt the episode as well.Eric Eddings 27:39The other thing you spoke to the moment a bit, and I think is important to kind of come back to that, like the kind of the moment that we're in. You know, I think a part also, while we were so excited to return to the show, you know, like for us, I was actually weird. I was talking about this with a friend yesterday like I start I'm watching this, I'm watching the changes in media, people come in into the space making stuff that like, to be frank, I've always kind of dreamed of seeing or listening to. And the thing that I'm so happy about is that you know, I don't know how to shut off the brain, the part of my brain is trying to understand where it's headed, and figure out how I feel about it. And so, you know, it's so awesome to kind of have that space where we can do that. And I think even one of the things we realized is that looking kind of back at, you know, both The Nod and For Colored Nerds, we were doing a version of kind of that same thing. We've often talked about it feeling a bit like a time capsule. And so you know, I'm happy that you came to this came to Girlboss in this moment, because I'm also so curious about where it goes and like then we can you know, even selfishly, I can look back and kind of be like, listen to that, like, Oh, it's so interesting that that's where we were considering, like wherever we end up because look at the news house, it's kind of like we have no idea. The world is crazy.Dan Runcie 28:51Oh, yeah, I think the time capsule piece is a great way to play it. Because yeah, as you put it, we are in this era where so much is changing right now with Black Media, and who knows what we may be talking about in 2025, right? Maybe there's a different type of trope, maybe things are better. And there's, you know, less, you know, of a need to dig into tropes. But I think there's one thing that I do think about that will probably always be a bit of a time capsule itself. Maybe not just for you all, but in general of like how we look at it, and maybe I guess I'd call it the perception of Tyler Perry. Books out and as a business person, and I think we could probably do consider I know he's been a common theme on your shows. And going back and listening to someone else can probably reflect maybe where and I don't want to say their culture because people have such a wide opinion of Tyler Perry even within the black community. Oh, yes. But it's interesting because I think that you all could probably relate to maybe how I think about him and what he's built because on one hand, it is so impressive to see this person that literally built what he was able to create and given the circumstances and As a black business leader, it is inspiring to see that. On the other hand, as people like me that often live on Twitter to log every few days, there's slip time that clip that's like, no Tyler Perry Studios has to be shut down. Because it's some clip of someone wiling out and doing something ridiculous that would never be seen on any other type of broadcast. And you're like, what? But that's part of the basic this. And I mean, I could go on for days about it. But yeah, where are you both right now with Tyler Perry? Brittany Luse 30:32My feelings swing like a pendulum about how I feel about Tyler Perry. Like, on one hand, I mean, I'll say this, like, I think the older I get, and the more his legacy like continues on, I really enjoy the camp of Tyler Perry, Tyler Perry. Like almost has no, not almost Tyler Perry has absolutely no shame. Tyler Perry is one of the most shameless performers I've ever seen in my entire life. He leaves it all on the floor, he holds literally looking back, like, I don't even think he has an unexplored idea. In his mind. I think he literally has an idea. I can take action on each of them. And I think that we've seen them meet as possible. So like, I don't know, there's something about like, him just not giving a shit that I really connect to. And he just like leaning in and doing whatever he can to entertain people, maybe second himself first, I think I love that. It's amazing. When Tyler Perry also shows up in somebody else's movie, his acting… like I had never seen Gone Girl until like two years ago. And I watched it and I found myself saying this is just like a white Tyler Perry movie. And then he was in the regular person. Like, Star Wars. I think the Star Wars played a regular person. Yeah, like, I think that is so funny. And I kind of Oh, yeah, yeah. It's funny the level like, I think he kind of knows he's ridiculous. And I like that. I also like, you know, he said a bunch of things about like, how his content is like, it's very accessible in every sense of the word. And also, like he like, does make family entertainment, which like, when you think about like, when we get together, black folks get together to watch movies or play games or have you know, Christmas dinner or whatever, wherever we're going to turn on after that, you kind of do want that multi-generational entertainment that's got a little something for everybody, maybe slightly risky, with a Christian message. It serves a purpose. And he's put so many black actors and not writers. But what I would say something that I found out is that like crew people, like basically like if you're on Tyler Perry crew, if your editor, you're a gaffer, whatever, for what I understand, you're making good money, like he'll pay you in Atlanta, what you would get paid in New York or LA.So it's weird. It's like I have such complex feelings, because obviously, like, he doesn't employ writers at all, which is pretty clear. Even if you didn't know that for a fact, I think it's pretty evident from the work he does employ writers at all. I mean, there's so much to be said about his content and what some people might think of as like it being harmful or holding black people back or engaging stereotypes, especially stereotypes about black women. I mean, all of that stuff is true. But I do find Tyler Perry interesting as somebody who like has built an honest business what I mean, when I say honest business is like, he knows exactly what people want from him. And he gives it to people consistently. He knew somehow that like if people would watch me playing Medea completely made up character, that people would watch grainy bootleg DVDs and be playing Medea and gospel stage place with their families, they absolutely would buy a 15 $20 movie ticket, they absolutely would go to see me in person, like on tour. And they absolutely would tune in if I was on Oprah. And that was a pretty smart way to build a brand. If you look back at it. That's what I mean, when I say that Tyler Perry has an honest business. He provides exactly what he has always promised, and there is something compelling about that. That's where I am today.Eric Eddings 34:18It's almost like I can't quit him completely. If that makes any sense. Like, you know, to Brittany's point, there's so much he's accomplished so much. And it's so fascinating how he uses that those accomplishments to facilitate by where there's growth, his own growth, the growth company where growth is in the medium, whatever, and it's just so hard to pin down his reasons, you know, saying in terms for any one thing, but you can't help but be fascinated by it like yeah, it's one of those people like I respect what he's accomplished so much and you know, they're even don't get twisted. Another big piece of this is that I try to have very complex thoughts about what I want the world to be. And I try to educate myself, I try to really, you know, say, like, do the work of understanding who I want to be in the world, but also try not to be above at all, if that makes any sense. And I think like with Tyler Perry, sometimes people can, like, turn their nose, like the folks who enjoy his content, because of all the things that come along with it. But also, like, we can't lose the fact that like, people are being moved by this in some way. And I try not to be above I try to meet them where they're at, would I challenge him to maybe make a few changes? Absolutely. If I had the opportunity, you know, do I think that like, you know, maybe even those people were in his audience deserve a tiny bit better? Absolutely. But guess what they're happy. And you know, like that, it gives me the thing that I can connect with that, you know, that cousin who I only see at the family reunion or, you know, I'm saying like on will help more recently, the family Zune call or whatever we're doing, you know, nowadays, like, it gives me that thing that I know, I can connect with him about, you know, and I send my thoughts about everything else related to the movie to the group test, you know. So yeah, you got to respect it, even though you also maybe have to critique it.Dan Runcie 36:06100%. I mean, look at how he's got about just being unapologetic. I think back to that clip that he had with Kenya Barris, where Kenya Barris said something to the effect, you know, I'm always making shows that I'm trying to seek white people's approval or rotten tomatoes or whatever. Tyler Perry's, like, I don't give a fuck about Rotten Tomatoes, or any of this stuff. Like I'm making it for the people I make it for right. And then you see Tyler Perry, like two years later getting honored by the Oscars institution that he totally does not care what they have to say like, and this is how he's built himself. And there is something amazing with that, right. And, Eric, I do like the point that you brought up regarding how it can be easy for people, especially within, you know, black folks to turn their nose up or look down on the people that clearly enjoy this content. And in some ways, it also makes me think of no different than how in, you know, the most recent election in the primaries, people were turning their nose up at some of the black voters in the south and who they supported as the, you know, Democratic candidate and it's like, no, like, you can't just, you know, play this elitistness of how people look at their content. And I think there is, you know, to your point as well, Brittany a beauty and who else can relate. I mean, I've talked to my mom about Tyler Perry, and you know, she's a big woman in her 60s, and you know, she'll watch beat the browns, and she's no problem with it. And I think, you know, it's great that she does that, right. And I think, you know, just being able to have that kind of comment places like okay, yes. Why does this exist? I'm still gonna laugh when somebody takes a clip of it and posts it on Twitter and be like, What the hell was this? But, no. Brittany Luse 37:47But no, I mean, to this day, sometimes me my turn off the dinner scene, like the dinner reveal scene from Why did I get married? I mean, you can just turn that on anytime a day. And you'll be laughing for 50 minutes straight. I'm sorry, that was a good movie. When I first started dating my fiance I think maybe five weeks into us dating five weeks, and I got the flu. And he took care of me, which is like a, you know, thing that definitely set him apart. But the thing is, like, the first thing that he did was turn on why didn't get married? He was like, Oh, you're sick a bit. Let me turn on this tell I could have put you in a better place. And he was absolutely right. There's something about this stuff. It's just, it's comforting.Eric Eddings 38:31It works. It definitely worksDan Runcie 38:32it definitely does. Alright, well, before we let you go. I wanted to talk a bit about hip hop. Of course, this is an area that I do cover with the podcast and it's just an interesting thing for me because both have my personal interest of someone that like anyone that music I grew up listening to in high school and college definitely will always have a special place for me, but I'm covering now and looking at a lot of people whose music I may not necessarily seek out but I'm still you know, I'm following to make sure that I can, you know, not just be as subjective as I can. But obviously, you know, it's hard not to do that. But I guess it's people that are also in the media space. And you know, also you know, I guess I'll include both hip hop and R&B together, it'd be good to hear you know, what's your relationship like with current music made by current artists compared to the music that also may have been popular when you were in high school or college? What is that relationship like for you?Eric Eddings 39:30It's funny. We've been talking about this a little bit just as a group as a show team, this exact point, at least for me, you know, it's a really kind of interesting moment because like, I was somebody you know, back in the like, blog era Hip Hop time, you know, I was like, I caught every night right post you know, I'm saying like, I was literally because I google readers, I would make sure to click everyone listens to like first 30 seconds of the mixtape or whatever to see if I liked it, and then you know, kind of come back to listen more later, I got time for it now, you know, like, there's just too much going on. And so, you know, I found myself at the place where I have learned that like a lot of people get like once they kind of hit their mid-30s actually start apparently retreating to the things that made them most comfortable. So I feel myself doing that, but also, to your point, like I feel conflicted about it, because I'm like, Oh, shit, I'm not trying to tap out, I'm not trying to, like push myself back from the table, you know, I'm still here. And so, you know, I do try to catch some of the kind of newer artists who are kind of coming out and watch, again, for the trends of what I see. And so you're, I'll still try to listen a little bit online Fridays when stuff comes out. Like I'm trying to, like hear a little bit, but not all the time, like, there have been folks who have kind of risen above and often it's the first kind of connected to the people to the artists who I kind of evangelize from a little bit before. So like, Baby Keem, for example, I've been like a huge fan of like, you know, some of his like tracks that come out on the album, he obviously you know, his Kendrick's cousin, you know, but just like that kind of folks who are kind of in the orbit of others that No, I can feel most confident about in terms of whether the sound is going to be kind of what I'm looking for. Because also hip hop is really changing. And like, you know, it's changing around me in a way that I don't always connect with, but I respect that power and the fact that like, you know, it's a living breathing thing, it's gonna become something else. And so, you know, I'm trying to understand a little bit of the trajectory of kind of where they're going to be able to just understand how my relationship to it is changing. So yeah, it's a complicated time. I'm not like, I think I told Brittany this at this moment, listen to more r&b than I have ever in my life.Dan Runcie 41:41Are we talking about modern like R&B artists or like R&B back in the day,Eric Eddings 41:45All of it, I'm talking about, you know, like, everything from the help that rerelease, hotels to, you know, Jazmine Sullivan, to you know, going back, and I have literally I call it like, oh, people cookout music, their playlist has been good, that placement, plenty of work for me, you know, so it really runs the range. And some of that comes from just like the volatility of the world right now, you know, but I don't want to say that, like, I don't know, I think Hip Hop reflects more than what we can consume. And so what I have been seeing recently has sometimes stressed me out, you know, and so I found myself leaning on other genres, but I do still have hope that they're gonna swing back, and there's probably gonna be somebody else Hill, everybody's talking about Kendrick coming back this year. So maybe, you know, he can inspire some folks, we'll see. Because, sorry, I rambledBrittany Luse 42:28As far as music. So I really like music that I can sing along to and kind of what Eric was saying. Like, I like to say things that like, especially like I like listening to, at this point in my life, rap and hip hop, that makes me feel aspirational. And I feel like female rappers right now are the only people who are rapping about things that actually you'd want to do. They're like, oh, I want you know, they're basically like, I want to have sex with a really hot guy. I want to make a lot of money. I want to buy expensive things. And I want to go on a trip. I'm like, wow, yeah. I mean, I identify with that until like, they say, a really poetic way. And they put a great beat. I'm like, This is what I'm talking about this. I understand. They're always just like, I'm so flying. So cute. I'm so beautiful. I'm gonna have it? To me, this never goes out of style. I think that sometimes when I hear some of the young, these young men, everything is like Xanny, Xanny, Xanny. And my thought is like, I know, I'm getting really getting older because I'm just like, Oh, my God, they are stressing me out. Like, are you drinking water? Are you taking breaks? Do you have a trip, buddy? Like, you should not be taking all these empty bars by yourself and being in a club, and I tell anybody is not safe. But also like, some, like, I want to listen to things that are gonna like make me feel good or ease my stress. And I think to Eric's point, right now, I don't feel like listening to a lot of younger male artists at this point eases my stress. That's not to say that I don't think there are quite a few people that I hear that I'm like, oh, man, that sounds really good. That sounds interesting. But I also don't follow music as much as I used to when I was younger, I was kind of into like, some of like the block hip hop. I used to follow a blind eye for the kids. And I was always downloading all the stuff and listening to it. And it was fun. But like, I didn't have like the type of bills I have. Now. I have more energy. I'm tired now. And so I think even sometimes deciding to try something new feels like it can take energy out of me when I'm like I can just go straight to something that I know that I'm really going to enjoy. So because I love music that I can sing along to. I have always been a pretty strong r&b listener. My parents are really an r&b I've actually found myself enjoying present r&b and real like real good singers like a Jazmine Sullivan Ari Lennox, JoJo, like people who really can think I do like to listen to music. I love pop. But you know, speaking specifically, to slightly close up. I've been listening to a lot of older r&b stuff that like I will hear on like a 70s mix or something like that. And it'll like take me back to being in a car of my parents on a Saturday night coming home from one of their friend's parties, hearing like a quiet storm set on the radio, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, I haven't heard the song in 25 years. Like, I've been listening to a lot of that stuff. And I don't know, it just puts me in a good state. And I feel like some of it really just speaks to my emotions, maybe that I'm experiencing as in like, as I'm getting deeper into adulthood as I'm like a real adult now at 34 when I wasn't really 27, 24, 22. I think that there's like a, I don't know, like something about where the melody hits. The lyrical complexity is just I don't know, I understand basically, now are my parents were like 35, 40. And listening to Angela Bofill. Late at night, driving workplaces. So I mean, but what I will say is that my opinion on what music is popping right now, I'm actually I don't care that much about my opinion, even if I don't listen to everything. I really want to know what young people are responding to. Because I think what they think of their music is a lot more important than what I think of their music. Like, it's fine to me that like, I don't connect with it, because it's not meant I'm not meant to connect with it. Like my time of wearing you know, as the kids say, like the Olivia Pope business casual in the club, I had a stat investment for over 21. I worked for a party at Rutgers in 2007. Those days are behind me, thankfully. But yeah, I think I don't know. That's what part is more like tick tock tick tock, like playlists, or even just like seeing what's hot on the charts. Keeps me up with like, artists that young people are super into. And also even sometimes on TikTok, there'll be people who are way younger than me, like 1015 years younger, who like to make Top Five artists I'm listening to right now. And I get to hear snippets of their music. Like, I'm just interested in what they think about their music, because like, honestly, what they think about their music and how it speaks to them. That says a lot more to me about their, like, where culture is headed, and what they're into that like me listening to something and being like, What the hell is this? You know, I'm Auntie now and it's fine.Dan Runcie 47:09Yeah, that's the exact point there. I think that I, like, in my view, group chats, people will do this thing. Every year, someone will post the annual XXL freshman class, and then they're like, Hey, do y'all even know when you these names in here? And I'm like, bro, you're 39 with you. They're not meant for you. Like, yeah, this literally isn't meant for you. And so I think about that piece, right? And maybe even more. So now. It's like, I think that some of these artists the same way that media general is just becoming more niche, they know, their audience, they're leaning into it even more. So that may be some of the forced mass marketing that they would have been pushed to do, you know, 20, 30 years ago before.Eric Eddings 47:49To your point, they're smarter, you know, saying you don't need to, and also how people think about what a hugely successful career in music is different and slightly now, you know, like, there is not actually the same scale as there used to be or if that scale exists is only for a much smaller amount of folks. So like, I think people are coming into the game. Now, the game sound like I'm trying to be cool, but like, people are coming into hip hop now trying to, you know, like, sustain themselves and have a long career as opposed to always being, you know, trying to necessarily be like the person at like, the top the charts. And I think that actually is really great. I think because again, the sustaining is a part that is really interesting, because we've seen so many of our, you know, favorite rappers or musicians period just kind of like burn themselves out or get burned by the industry. And then they, you know, disappear after a few albums. So yeah, you know, like the like, I'm still shocked futures is produced it, you know, he's had a long career, but like, I think there are a lot of.Brittany Luse 48:48vVery true.Eric Eddings 48:51But yeah, there's so many others. I'm like, I want them to be able to have the longevity in this space, especially a lot of the female rappers out here now, I am excited to see them. So in control of the business as well, because of how, like, you know, they're smarter about what that's going to protect for them later on. Man is like getting her shit together. She learned about the run me off the paint. Like, I know what the contract the paper is supposed toEric Eddings 49:18The sauce was good. It was good.Brittany Luse 49:19It was it was great. Yeah.Dan Runcie 49:23Oh, man, we could talk about, you know, hip hop all day. But I know we've run out of time. But before we let you go, I feel like that last point you made was probably a good note to just tie things up, right? People are getting smarter about knowing their audiences leaning into it. And I think that speaks a lot to what you both have been able to build over the years with For Colored Nerds with The Nod and then you know, back with for color nerds. Again, I think that having an audience that has been with you this long, just speaks to the work that you've done in all of the that goes into it. So thank you again for coming on. And I mean, both as a listener and as a fellow podcaster, it's been great to watch both of your charity. Thank you. It was great.Eric Eddings 50:05last night. Yeah, seriously,Brittany Luse 50:07You do great work/ You made this infographic like a flowchart about ESA raised businesses and how they Yeah, like how each one feeds the other. Like talking about why she still has the Patreon how she's thinking about radio and this was probably like three or four years ago or something like that. It was like instant follow. So it's cool to be here with youDan Runcie 50:31Thank you. That means a lot. Really appreciate it, really appreciate it. If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link text it to a friend posted in your group chat posted in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead rate the podcast give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

Kevin Liles didn’t co-found 300 Entertainment just to sell it. He created it, first and foremost, to fill a void he saw in the music industry — a lack of talent development. Ten years after starting the 300 record label, it’s safe to say Kevin and company filled that void. By developing culture-shifting artists like Gunna, Megan Thee Stallion, Young Thug, among others, 300 has become one of the hottest commodities in all of hip-hop. This led to WMG buying the formerly-independent label for $400 million at the start of the new year.In WMG, Kevin believes he’s found a partner with the “mindset of an independent, but the muscle of a major.” As the one-time EVP of WMG, Kevin would know this first-hand. And even with an influx of $400 million, Kevin isn’t going to change the way he makes decisions. For Kevin, it’s always been about prioritizing the cultural incentives rather than the financial ones. This mindset has followed him from Def Jam intern to its President and now as CEO of 300 & Elektra Music Group.In-between running the label, Kevin has also invested resources in creating a pipeline for future music and entertainment execs with diverse backgrounds. In particular, Kevin has tapped into HBCUs, helping set up a $250 million fundraising campaign for his alma mater, Morgan State, and connecting students directly with the FBI.   Kevin and I covered a lot of ground in this episode of the Trapital. Here are the show chapters:[3:23] Behind 300 Entertainment’s Sale To Warner Music[8:29] Gunna’s Meteoric Rise [10:29] How Phrases Like Hot Girl Summer & Pushin P Became A Thing [13:08] What Changes With WMG Partnership? [15:58] New Def Jam Video Game In The Works? [17:27] Launching 300 Studios [20:17] Kevin Thinks The Best Is Yet To Come For Hip Hop[22:10] Hip Hop’s International Opportunity [24:23] Major Differences Between Running Def Jam vs. 300 [28:10] The Power Of Diverse Execs Making Cultural, Not Financial Decisions[30:25] How Music Industry Has Handled Diversity Issues Since George Floyd[31:00] Kevin’s Attempt To Create Diverse Talent Pipeline[32:14] The Rise Of Hip-Hop Media Personalities[40:35] Young Thug’s Role As Chief Innovation Officer[43:49] Keeping Narrative On The Future, Not PastThis episode is brought to you by Koji, the best “link in bio” tool. It is trusted by Grammy winners, chart-topping hitmakers, and more. Join 185,000+ creators. Check it out for free: koji.to/trapitalpodcastListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Kevin Liles, IG: @kevinlileskwl, Twitter: @KevinLiles1  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands_____TRANSCRIPTIONKevin Liles 00:00When you put diverse people at the head of the company, and you allow that person to make cultural decisions and not financial decisions on something that they don't know, so that young people run a company, they don't know they might go to a concert, but they don't know when a kid could come in, like I came in. And I saw Russell, I said, “Oh, he's the boss.” So you mean if you're the boss, you can move stuff that you want to people not only want to be an employee or work in music, no, they want to run companies. And until we as an industry, and really this is not just about the music industry, this is about the world. Until a CEO that looks like them, act like them talk like them, you know, that's when you unleash the true power of where we are in our culture.Dan Runcie 00:56Today's episode is with Kevin Liles, the Chairman and CEO of 300 Entertainment and Electro Music Group. Kevin's been one of the most influential record label executives of the past few decades. He ran Def Jam for seven years in the late 90s, early 2000s. And almost 10 years ago, he started 300 Entertainment, which he just sold to Warner for a $400 million deal. So we talked about everything that went into that decision, what it was like to sell the record label what a partnership with Warner looks like and how the record label can maintain its independent spirit under the umbrella of native record labels. We also talked about Gunner and how he's having one of the biggest years in hip hop right now and Pusha P and everything with that. We talked about Megan Thee Stallion and we talked about Thug. Did you know that Thug is Chief Innovation Officer at 300? When we talked all about that and what that means and a whole lot more. He also gave us the latest update on Def Jam Vendetta. You know the people that ask him at Def Jam Vendetta, they want to see the video game come back through. So we talked about that. We also talked to broader about IP. If you follow me on social media, you know that I want to see the story to hip hop record labels get the same type of TV anthology breakdowns that we're seeing now about Thera Nose and WeWork and Uber I want to see the same about Def Jam and Bad Boy and Rockefeller. And we talked a little bit about that too. It was a great conversation. I think it's always inspiring to talk to one of the most influential execs in hip hop that I believe really helped to make this culture what it is. Here's my chat with Kevin Liles. All right, today we got co-founder and CEO with 300. Entertainment Kevin Liles with us today. Hey, Kevin, I got to give you a shout out man, it feels like you've had one of the strongest starts to this year sold the record label, Gunner’s hit starting the year off strong. How does it feel?Kevin Liles 02:43It feels like another day at the office. People ask me all the time, Kevin, what's new, every day is new. Every day is a new opportunity. God woke me up and I feel there's a bigger purpose. And I feel the steps that we take, I don't look for number one albums, I don't look for to be, accolades or to be the best this or anything. I really just strive on doing this work that day. And I joke with somebody I said no with me, I'm never gonna be up too upset, they'll never be too sad. I will flow like water. And water is a very powerful thing because it helps grow. It changes direction with the most people around the world. So I feel like what is great about me.Dan Runcie 03:23I hear that. So talk to me a bit about the sale because that made big news, there was rumors about it happening towards the end of 2021. But walk me through that process. When did you first think about selling 300 and what went into the decision for you?Kevin Liles 03:39I never thought about selling. I don't build things to sell. I'm a serial entrepreneur, but I build things to change the world. And I find a void. And the void was the creation of 300 co-founders, the void was there was no true artist about it. When we talk about our students. I'm not just talking about developing a sound or developing of a person I'm saying we're raising young kids, young men, and women into the world. And so they need to have some have dads and we have moms and we had by my dad, but some have not, you know around them. So we need to be of service to their growth. So when people say what are you thinking about selling, I always was thinking about who was my best partner that I could have the independent of my mindset of independent, but the muscle of a major who's the best partner that independence will be in their DNA, who's the best partner that I could actually administer around the world, the good, the bad, the right the wrong and treat the body want to be treated. And so I'm not for sale. 300 as an entity I sold because I wanted entrepreneurs to learn what intrapreneurship was to add what tools in a toolboxes around the world, but you know, people can't be sold a company what I did was sold an asset that I felt could be a bigger asset to the world. I'd say do you think Steve, isn't a Jeff Bezos is still sitting in his garage. No. Do you think that guys are still in a dorm room? Yeah, I mean, Zuckerberg in a dorm room? No, no, we actually have a great idea, a great business, we're acquiring things, starting different things. So I believe the sale is something that people put too much emphasis on. Now, with that being said, I wanted also to create history. So if you think about Motown selling for 61 million, if you think about Def Jam, selling for 140 million on the face, on 425 million getting sold for 325, or even a man selling for 500 million in 27 years, eight years, we sold a company for $400 million. And so to me, I also think about legacy and history and what that means. So if people want to talk about the sale, talk about it in a way, that is historic for an African American, historic for a company, but it's also profitable for shareholders. And as a CEO, you know, we got to make sure the shareholders and the board a great, but I think the culture needed to see that it is a possibility to build something, sell something, become a bigger brand by doing it, but never lose the mindset of an independent.Dan Runcie 06:13I think that's an interesting good point, because so many of the big, whether it's the catalog sales, or the record label sales that we've seen over the past two years that we've seen this run happen, a lot of them haven't been with executives that are black, or executives that, you know, are just non-white men in general. So I think that the fact that you were able to do that shows and signals not just what you're capable of, but also what your artists are capable of, too. And I think as well on the partnership side, it's interesting because I think that 300, maybe, you know, relative to a lot of the other labels that were independent before people may have thought that “Oh, well. 300 is just as powerful as some of the majors or you know, definitely has the same firepower behind it.” But it sounds like what you're saying is that, yeah, even with all that we've accomplished, there's still more that we can have, you know, with the backing and with the further partnership of a company like a Warner.Kevin Liles 07:11We shocked the world where we had more Grammys than the majors but magazine three Grammys, you know, we shot the world that we put out and we're up against a major and had the number one album in the first week out as this little independent thing, you got to realize all the stuff that's happening now is still stuff we've set up last year. And so as we go into this year, just look for us to be doing hashtag bigger family business, not just family business, but bigger family business.Dan Runcie 07:37Yeah, I hear that. And I think too, talking about the artists that were able to do things, I mean, Ghana has been the poster child so far this year, at least when it comes to hip hop, I mean, not just him getting the number one single but him being the weekend, but then had everything surrounding around Pusha P and everything there. I mean, I assume that has to feel pretty good. Because I think it's so tough, especially in this era, to have superstars and people that are on the verge of superstar status to kind of grow in get there with so much noise and so much other artists that are coming through whether it's independence or others. So the fact that he's able to, you know, not show to he compete, but outsell other superstars, I think shows a lot of not just the potential, but also that this is still possible in this era, we can still have the biggest stars continue to reach further heights.Kevin Liles 08:29Yeah, I think you'd want to talk about true artist development and from the dropping of drip Season One, two, and three, and one. And all those things, you got to realize that young kid was just sitting by bug in the studio learning and he never stopped learning, we never stopped evolving. And when you saw him perform with commitment to balance, open up the brands, you know, one year, he's all things that became attainable to him and through by us the work that went into ds for the thoughtfulness of how it started, ebb and flows of it, of how many girl records should I have on it? What am I trying to say? I can't say I'm dripping. And I'm not really drip. So I have to be in every fashion show or it just you know, the thoughtfulness. We're not just putting out records, if you want to do that, that's not 300. 300 is thoughtful. 300 is taking the time to understand where an artist is in their career. Where is it a mixtape time isn't an album time? Is it collab time? These are all things that because people don't have the relationships with the artists, then if the artists house or going on vacation, they can't really communicate. You know, obviously, you can't hand me something without an owner's name. I have to know everything about it so I can assist. You know, Gunner is more than an RC you can, he's a human being but he's also a very good friend. You know, Evany his manager is not just a manager. She's a system that could be a daughter to me, and I have a responsibility to develop another young woman in our industry. So to me, what are we Pusha P whenever we have Hot Girl Summer, well we attract cooling it or you know, Savage in it, whatever you whatever one you want to a week bad and bougie in it. But everyone you want to pick up. We don't just, you know have moments we make movies.Dan Runcie 10:15I like that you mentioned that because you have had so many I feel like every year every other year, there's some moment that 300 is able to capture some term that they're able to introduce something in the water like power, y'all always the ones that have the terms on lock. Kevin Liles 10:29You know, I think it's a great commentary to the great artists and the great creators and the great executives that we have run if we don't make this shit up. We didn't go to FedWatch and say, Yo, do trap boo. We didn't go to mag and say have a hot girl summer. We don't go to yo, guess what the Gunner we go, Pusha P, that's not how it happens. It happens because we provide a safe place for ideation, creativity, and opportunities for people to fail. But failure is a learning experience. You know, when Marvin Gaye wanted to do what's going on, and it was an appointment, and what his biggest-selling album, it was just where he was in life. ps4 is where Gunner is in life. Punk was where thug was in life. You can't go through manufacture in the ship. And it's not cultural. And if it's not cultural, then it really can't be 300 to me, and that's really the message and one of the great things about being able to take over the electrode of entertainers we've also it's in their ethos, we have great labels like FBI, FDR, Roadrunner, iconic labels that started with founders that had a point of view. And so to me, as long as I have a point of view, as long as it be cultural, as long as I could have the independent mindset, I'm good. And I'm doing it all, again to raise great young men and women, web executives or artists. But I really believe God wakes me up to change the world. I really believe it is not even a question in my mind. And so I want to get better. I want to be a better father, a better operator, a better friend. And if you always challenge yourself that there is more, that there is more to do. If you reimagine and rethink and things you will see God will answer you in so many great way. Do you think that the VR sold a company eight months ago now months ago, Mary Jane, you connected? Did you think she was performing at the Superbowl? Do you think that the Super Bowl, who would be it they'd be run by Jay Z? Do you think that like, we don't make this up? This is I can't tell you, I can just thank God, and thank the people around me for believing that they do have a bigger mission.Dan Runcie 12:37And I think with this too, you build something so special, you talked a lot about that independent spirit that I think carry through with artists development with how your artists became the culture-makers that they are. And I gotta wonder, though, with the partnership with Warner now, of course, you're giving up a little bit of control in exchange for the power, it helps you put behind the artists. But is there any concern or any thought about okay, what will that look like? Or how may that potentially shift if we're seeding some of that control or some of that power?Kevin Liles 13:08Then, you see, I'm the wrong guy to accept because I never felt like I worked in the back. I always feel like give me the mission, give me assignment. And let me do that. Again, great thing about this opportunity, Julie Greenwald. And I ran Def Jam together along with Leah, Julie was an assistant I was starting to enter. So she knows everything about me. She knows where the bodies buried, she knows the good, the bad, the ugly, maximum side I work with as a concrete colleague for 9, 10 years, you know, he knows the good, the bad. And so I'm a position player. So if I need to be the coach to quarterback, the running back, then I have enough tools in my toolbox to play whatever position and so I never give up control. Because nobody does what I do can't keep that and so I never look at it. But we can you know, you have a boss now. Okay, what does that mean? They have a great employee. Oh, Kevin, Kevin, for your artists. They can't know we do what we do. But now we do it. It's hashtag bigger family business that it's just again, I'm not the guy that when you take on additional investment that you change, I believe the thing about 300, thing about Def Jam, these were things that were built out of necessity, and we curated them in a cultural way, not in a financial way. Not we saw a need to do Def Comedy Jam. We saw a need to have fat farm and baby fat. We saw a need to make Def Jam Vendetta and Fight For New York. You know, we saw a need to be heavily involved in political races and important countries. We saw a need that the State's Attorneys in every city can help us change the narrative around who's going while going and why they're in jail and they should be out of jail. We just saw see things because we're out in the streets without it every single day. That doesn't mean everybody has to be Mona, what it means is you have to be in touch with who you are, why you are, what your purpose is. And that is what I challenge. But listen, I don't deal with coke cans and cigars and shit talk back to me. These are real people in, my people know they have the freedom, the freedom to disagree, the freedom to try. And when you have a bunch of risk-takers, like we have in Max and we have and Julie and we have and the rest of the team and I have two great kids and rating Celine that most people wouldn't give them the power that I've given them. But remember, they may be president and CEO of Def Jam at age 30. So, to me, this is just a great opportunity for us to do what we do never change who we are.Dan Runcie 15:42I hear that. And you mentioned Def Jam Vendetta. So we got to talk about that. Because I think it was last year, you put out a little teaser. You said hey, do you all want another sequel? You want another one? So where's that ad? What are you thinking about for the future of the Def Jam video game?Kevin Liles 15:58I don't know if you saw the tweet about it yesterday. But he said, Man, we need another one. Because back and Snoop it oh my god, it's timing. For me. It's working with the right partner. At that time, Electronic Arts was the right partner, they allowed me to curate it without the limitations of “Oh, but we're Electronic Arts. Oh, and you know,” so when I find the right gaming button, and if you're out there, let me know, when I find the right gaming partner that wants to experience gaming in a way that I see it culturally, it'll come back out. But until then, I'll keep having the conversations until I find the right one.Dan Runcie 16:34That makes sense, because I think what we're talking about at the end of the day is just how valuable the IP and the brand is, and everything that you all had created, whether it's what you had done at Def Jam, or what you've now done this past decade with 300 and one of the things I've started to take notice to now is we're this way right now with media TV, where we're seeing all of these TV anthology series about the rise and fall of these tech companies. Right, we got the Theranos one, we got the WeWork one, we got the Uber one. And I want to see the same for the Def Jams and the Bad Boys. And I want to see all of that. And I feel like if we're having the conversations about the video games, it's only going to be a matter of time before we're going to see those as well. We want to get back to the early 2000s Def Jam or the Rockefeller run and see who would all play you all I feel like that's it has to be happening in at least a couple of years.Kevin Liles 17:27So one of the reasons why I created 300 Studios is because I haven't told full stories in a long time. And so you can check the credits for whether it was how high the show ended things that we did back in the day rush hour. And those things that we've been able to be a part of why did I get married a Tyler Perry was daddy's little girl and go down to this though, things that we've been able to help curate. There was a reason why I wanted him studios to not only tell the audio stories around 300, but I wanted to tell digital stories. And I had the great pleasure of finding Kelly Nolan. And they believe in the vision. And you know, within two years, we had our first doc on February 26 called Race, Bubba Wallace. And it was the only African American Cup Series driver and his trials and tribulations of not having any sponsorship to now winning races and changing the current federal flag and mascot. I didn't say hey, here's the script. But here's what's gonna happen NASCAR, here's what you're gonna have a guy come in and actually curate and trust in the brands of 2311 racing, you know, with Jordan, and Denny, Toyota, McDonald's DoorDash, all these things with the background of raising a young kid in a sport that you can't even afford to be in. You know, I mean, you just 20, $30 million, you have to have caused the crash. I know that. So again, I wanted to educate people on the sport but also wanted to take them on a journey that a lot of people have never taken with NASCAR. So I appreciate everything. And yes, there will be a story, there will be more Word docs. And I do plan because I'm going for decades in the business now telling the true stories of all of these iconic brands and iconic people and friends and people who shaped the world and conversation. I do plan on telling the story. Dan Runcie 19:14Yeah, I think people would love to hear that. I feel like that is where things are obviously heading with all of the IP that's being created. And I feel like especially for you all I mean, it's interesting now because we just see the histology of how everything is, you know, we're looking back and people are talking fondly about that late 90s, early 2000s run and it's only going to be a matter of time before people look back at this particular era. Not even just with hip hop, but music more broadly. And just seeing how many shifts this music industry has had. And I feel like the past few years, we're on the verge of another one as well. The revenue has been, you know, the highest that it's been at least since the CD era, and that I think has influenced a lot of these deals that we've seen and we're now seeing all This activity with web three NFTs and everything else. I mean, as someone who has seen it, you know the highs and the lows of it as you said, you know, you're definitely have the you know, be like water mentality. When that said, it must be really exciting to also see all the possibilities of where you could tap into.Kevin Liles 20:17Listen, all I can tell you, I was at the Super Bowl, the biggest stage in the world with Dr. Dre, Snoop Dogg, Eminem, 50 Cent, Mary J. Blige at the Super Bowl. So if you don't know the possibilities, we have the number one music in the world when they used to tell us, you'll be a fad. They used to say we play more music and less rap. Now everybody's saying we're just stationary hip hop, and Baba, Baba. And everybody when people didn't realize, and I'm sure they're not sure how old you are. But when I was in the car growing up, I was listening to the Temptations, and Diana Ross and Aretha Franklin because that's my Mom, listen to. But now, as adults, what we listen, I listen to hip hop. So that that's been for the last 30 years. So now you have hip hop parents, you have a President of the United States, in Iraq, who knows hip hop, you have mayors and governors and lordships and keep losing, that grew up on hip hop. So you have not seen the greatness of our culture, yet, you're starting to see the seeds being planted. I truly believe that with the continent coming into play with India, coming into play, these underdeveloped nations, oh, man, this will be so many stories to be told, in a way through a hip hop lens. So I'm just excited more say, I just hope they'll still let me be around. As long as God keeps giving these gifts, I'll stay with the rope.Dan Runcie 21:44I hear that, and I think the international expansion is just being so key to so many record labels, moving Making Moves, whether it's in India, in East Asia, in Africa, as well. And I know that you all have, you know, made moves in that perspective as well. What do you see is that opportunity, especially in the next few years? I mean, I know that having Warner behind can definitely help from an international push from that perspective. But what do you see as an opportunity.Kevin Liles 22:10 One of the biggest issues that I was having is I didn't have my Rolodex is 40,000 people, but I only had 75 people working for me, couldn't reach those, I got the calls from the biggest artists in France and the biggest artists in Germany and the biggest artist in London, and I couldn't serve them in a way that they need to be served. Remember, early on, I knew where hip hop was going, Leon Russell, we thought about your Def Jam UK, Def Jam Germany, Def Jam France, Def Jam Japan, we were just too early. And those countries did not have the voice. They didn't have their own voice. They were emulating what we were doing, because we were starting the creation of it. But now you go to any of those major territories, they have their own voice, the biggest artists in that territory is from that territory. It's not us coming there. And so as a proud steward of our culture, I think the opportunity is on steroids right now, because I'm going to be able to not only help artists, but also help creators and executives realize that set up their own iPhones in their own territories, because they can say shit 300 to do that. The guy was this is his third time. Oh, if they can do it, look what we could do. And so we're starting that also. So I can only thank again, you know, Max and Julie for believing in what we're creating, loving, independent spirit, but also remembering that Do It Yourself, DIY thing, nobody does it themselves. You know, that's like saying you gonna have a baby by yourself. No! You will get married by yourself. No, you don't do, you don't do anything by yourself. And there's not one global artists around the world that did it ourselves. So I believe in collaboration, I believe in partnership. But again, the mindset has to be independent.Dan Runcie 23:50I think the piece that you mentioned on the differences of when you're running Def Jam 20 years ago, versus now especially on the international front is key because as you mentioned, a lot of those regions didn't have the developed music ecosystem that they do. So it was often, forget your artists there as opposed to now they have their own superstars. What are some of the other major differences that you've experienced from now being a major label executive in this decade as opposed to what it was like for you Def Jam 20 years ago?Kevin Liles 24:23People didn't notice them. What the fuck was talking about? They didn't understand the cultural thing. They understood the numbers, but they didn't understand what I was somewhere why I would say no, I don't want to pay, when I want to go play a tape in London to small club that I will do that 10 times before I do it. They didn't understand why. I mean, even inside the company, he said, Well, we shouldn't take Trey Songz to London, because he doesn't have the big radio record there. And I'm like, people stream their people buy music. They're people and I know when I go there, and I'm doing 500,000 to 2000 or 5000 people in shows that they just do. He's not developed enough to understand that shit moves without all the triggers sometimes. And so it was funny. We went there, and somebody said, boot camp, you know, I know you want to play, you know, 5,000 seaters, but we sold out two nights on it. So maybe we should start playing arenas? And my answer was no because we're not ready for it yet. Let me keep curating keep going through the process. And seeing and I've seen bands that haven't had one hit, but they can sell out in a real way. And that that to me, I'm so excited. There's a young lady from the UK named Pink Patras that I'm so excited about where she's going her aesthetic who shipped to the capital labor, there's no label you can put on I'm excited that if you take a look at Megan Thee Stallion schedule for the next year, she's paying every major festival around the world. So think about what that what's that gonna do for her development, allow her to become a product of her experiences, not just her limited environment, think about what she's going to write. I remember a long time ago, Lulu, Chris and I went to Africa. And then I hate the song, the best women for Africa. Oh, yeah. Jay Z, and I took our first private plane. And then you start talking about the airport, you don't mean your first trip to the South of France, you don't mean? These are the experiences that allow for great storytelling that allow for evolution, not just of an artist, but also the narrative of the employees and executives that take those journeys with. Dan Runcie 26:30That makes me think too, about snooping around with the music and the beautiful music video and that spot a landmark, you know, like, people want to go there and take pictures and be like, No, I was as powerful. It really is. I mean, for me, one of the other things I think about too, that's just changed so much from you know, back when you're at Def Jam to now with 300 is because of streaming and the Internet and so much, now, people respect much more what you were trying to do then because they realize it and I think obviously streaming helped level a lot of the playing fields side, big hip hop and r&b soul. So many lot, so much black music was able to reach more of its true potential in terms of just how easily it could spread, because there's less gatekeepers, right. And I think I'm interested to see, okay, how that continues to go. And what are the things that may continue to rehab that, you know, whether it's boost further, or have it reach even more of its potential? Because to your point, I agree with that, we still haven't reached the maximum point or we still have it, you know, really been able to have the whole world really tap into what's happening here. So I'm curious to you know, as I'm thinking through what the next decade looks like, what are those things going to be the same way how, you know, streaming and social media help level the playing field for a lot of this genre of music like is whether it's, you know, Web 3.0, or NFTs or the Metaverse is that going to be the next thing that'll help even more of the hip hop artists in r&b and soul reach their full potential. Kevin Liles 28:01It's an output to you so straight that all that shit is good and as always, we evolution that we're going to go from the small two way pages to now the cell phone game and remote control, all that shit, technological change cassette to CD and all that stuff is gonna change our biggest power. And I'm a living example of it is when you put diverse people at the head of the company, and you allow that person to make cultural decisions and not financial decisions on something that they don't know. So that young people run a company, they don't know, they might go to a concert, but they don't know when a kid could come in, like I came in. And I saw Russell, I said, Oh, he the boss. So you mean if you're the boss, you can move stuff that you want to people not only want to be an employee or work in music, no, they want to run companies. And until we as an industry, and really, this is not just about the music industry, this is about the world until the consumers today see a CEO that looks like them, act like them, talk like them, you know, that's when you unleash the true power of where we are in our culture. The C-Suite does not represent what we're selling, and until you get that you're not going to maximize it, but it's coming because I plan on my fucking changes. I'm gonna let them know now that guys, I'm nowhere near done. This is just a, I'm on chapter one. Fuck it. I don't care what what we say. And I'm going to make sure part of my legacy is to make sure I have planted enough seeds that you know, the next CEO, CEOs of tech companies and men of various and this first in that verse, whatever you want to call it, they have representation of a culture that's using it.Dan Runcie 29:38Yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned this because I do think that that is what makes the change at the end of the day and that could influence so much it will influence so much. And I'd love to know what your perspective is on the movements or activities that the music industry has done on this front the past two years. So after George Floyd's murder, there was a bunch of announcements and funding that when after the show must be paused, and all of that in the call was exactly what you're saying, we need more black executives that are making decisions that are the ones that are really pushing this culture forward, especially since it's their culture that is making this industry what it is. So how do you feel that that progress has been since a lot of those announcements were made by the industry?Kevin Liles 30:25Not enough, and there's more work to be done. And it's one of the things that we hired a global diversity inclusion, the I would ever call officer named Dr. Smith. And when I came on, he's the first person to reach out, he said, we have $100 million, help me, help us change the world. We're not going to have a department, we're going to create the first-ever DEI Institute, and we're going to train people, we're going to go and find people in the organization and make them leaders in teaching cultural, cultural relevance, as far as it accompany cultural relevance and diversity of mindset and diversity of thought, not just color, we're going to find these change agents. No, I don't make this shit up. There's a lot of work to be done. But the reason that I'm at the more music group, and the reason I chose them is because Steve Cooper and Len Blavatnik have made in their mindset that we're going to change the world, and people who consume our products, who love our artists who buy our T-shirts, we want to have people in the C-Suite that look like them. And so that's a lot of fun work to be done. And once you're you know me, I'm not quiet. So I sit in the room and I tell everybody not charged. I said, “Guys, you can't announce $100 million and do things that don't change things.” Just not check the box. We're not doing it at the Warner Music Group. I never did it. I don't know how to check a box. I know how to create other boxes. I let everybody else do with it. Oh, we just did this? No, no, we created the DEI Institute around pingy equity, which is just amazing man, but a lot of work to be done all across the board. And I challenged every CEO, every chairman, every shareholder of a major corporations to challenge the company to allow that diversity to be in the C-Suite. It will change the company and it changing the company, will make more money. Dan Runcie 32:14Couldn't agree more. And I think too, this speaks to a lot of the work you've done, even you know, outside of just you know, running the music part of the record label, you've been active with HBCUs as a graduate of wind that you've wanted to make sure that mentorship programs and entrepreneurship supporting programs are there because you see that pipeline that you want to make sure that whether it's executives that want to go on to succeed in music or other places, the more that you can use your platform to help them the better off they'll be.Kevin Liles 32:44I think it's very important. I did a centennial raise from Golden State. Dr. Rosso, shout out to Florida State HBCU person myself, and we raised $250 million. So we knew that was the biggest institutional raise of HBCU went on to had a big conversation. I speak on a circuit a lot. And it had a big conversation around what's the pipeline to get to be a state's attorney, or a FBI special agent or a CIA, you know what, and really, I didn't know, I got to be a police officer. That's what I saw, you know, but I didn't know I don't be a basketball player, football fan, because that's what I saw. And so another program that I launched two years ago, I think, maybe last year is what I had 60 presidents of HBCUs meet with the head of the FBI, and to show that when George Floyd happened, when Freddy Gary happened, the FBI came, but people who were looking into it, when people like us, they wouldn't play for communities, there was no trust. So I want to make sure before I'm done, there will be somebody every place that will affect our culture, and have a cultural point of view, and not just a title point of view. And so that's been and I'm a big advocate of education and entrepreneurship, I believe the school system should be blown up. And we should be teaching more entrepreneurism, and not teaching people how to go work for somebody, but teaching people how to join and actually want to be change agents and not just employees. So I'm going to continue the big fight between 15 and do the work. And again, I don't do that by myself. So shout out to Dr. Smith.Dan Runcie 34:24That's good to hear. And I mean, I think you're right so much bad taps back into see where the pipeline they see how you can build it up in making sure that that leads to a promising career so people can whether it's they want to be their own boss or they want to do their own form of intrapreneurship whatever it is, the opportunities are there. One thing that I did want to talk about shifting back to music a bit. There's been an interesting movement I think happening right now where there is more of these, I call it the hip hop media personality that has come a bit more to rise and some of them You know, even some of the, you know, the artists that that 300 have definitely pushed back on some of these folks as well for someone, whether it's the things they've said or other things like that, it would be good to hear from your perspective, because I think this is not necessarily that these types of people didn't exist before. But I think social media obviously just makes the dynamic a little different. So what's your take on that dynamic?Kevin Liles 35:21No different than, we used to write on a graffiti walls now, we write it off Facebook, was used to hand out flyers and posters. Now you have Instagram and WhatsApp and this Snapchat and all these things. And when you talk about these personalities, you don't remember Starbuck while how they were. Dan Runcie 35:38They were wild. They were wild.Kevin Liles 35:41You don't remember how if you did any bit of R&B. You had to go to video. So with Donnie Simpson, you don't sit remember how sway and tech can wake up showing them what they were there. They just went on what one thing now with social media, it could be everywhere around the world. And we want those opinions. We want those pushbacks, we want those perspectives, because those things allow us to evolve as people we're not sociated for not some of them, we wouldn't be addressing some of the issues think about what Charlemagne and The Breakfast Club dude don't for mental health, you want that pushback, you want that conversation because we don't want to become stagnant as a people. And so to me, I put your nine out of 10 of my friends, Joe Biden, I signed him to be your I mean, Noriega, drink champion. Besides me, you don't mean to get Fat Joe, us you don't need to go down the list of these guys and girls around the world that have an actor that you need the crazy one, you need him to say what he wants to say, just to be thought-provoking, you know, but if you really get to know him, you know, he's Howard Stern, hip hop. That's his thing. And we don't want to do we don't not have a stern. There might be you do you're like it, you know, but you need the conversation. And I think even, what this happened with the Rogan guy, we need that conversation. As long as it is acceptable for you to use a word that you need the conversation the corporation's needed. And you need a Spotify to say, hey, we made an investment. We're gonna learn from this and teach from this, and you needed him to come on. I don't think he just apologize for his sponsors. I think that he felt that damn, you know, I never thought about it that way. Because I'm just repeating No, but even repeating is wrong. And so this is in the people that listen to him, trust me that backface was going on, they dress it up like this during all the shift is going on still. But I'm open. But I went all the smoke, bring me the motherfucking smoke because I want to have the conversation. I want to and the problem is we don't have the conversation. And so we operate in five items around things. No, I want to taste monster ball soup, which I want you to take some collard greens to I want you to go I want to go to the Trinidad festival and hang out Mardi Gras and all this. But yes, I want you to come to the hood celebration we build into the basketball is that to me, we don't have enough of the intermingling of cultures. And the lack of compensation has led to suicide, the lack of compensation has led to racism. And I knew when Barack Obama spent eight years I said, Oh, the next thing is gonna go left and be extremely other way. And then you got Donald Trump, I knew it was going to go in. But I also knew that we had to swing it back to the middle of the pendulum because he went too far left, and I can't wait to see some of the great leaders that will be born and find out of the conversation. You know, I always say we're living in biblical times. And was Moses, just a farmer competence was Job justice was married justice. No, damn, Max was the prophet. That shouldn't be a book of Acts, that shouldn't be a book of Jay, it shouldn't be a book of Todd. Because in these biblical times that we're in right now, when Moses parted the Red Sea for other people to get, there were some casualties of war. I gave my only begotten Son for us to move forward. And believe two people don't relate what we're going through as true biblical scriptures because we haven't put them all together. We call it the Bible. But there was a George Floyd in the Bible. There was a Freddie Gray in the Bible, and God bless their families and their soul. And all of them have taken on the mantle and said, his death, her death, this moment is meant to shift culture. It's meant to get people thinking a different way. And that's why again, I applaud all the noise, all the smoke, all the conversations that I have to have, and I do have a smile.Dan Runcie 39:30That's a good point because if we think about the evolution of Howard Stern, I think about the evolution of a Charlemagne there's kind of this like, you start off and you say, the stuff that makes you be like, What did he just say? And then like, a few years later, I mean, you listen to more recent Howard Stern interviews, I mean, he sounds like you know, almost like a therapist on the couch, like, you know, just talking through things and we said similar stuff about Charlemagne, given some of the books that he's written and just how much of a topic that is for him, and he definitely doesn't do interviews the way he did back in 2013. All right, is the evolution there? So thinking about it in that perspective, yeah, we'll be very interested to see like, where ACC or you know, where some of the others are, you know, seven years from now because I think I agree with you, you know, I don't necessarily think that, you know, he is a bad person or anything like that. I think if anything, it's more so this is a product of the internet and what everything has incentivized no different than, you know, Starbuck wild were incentivized to say wild shit on you know, power and you know, back in the day, and then now, you know, whether it's activated on twitch or on YouTube or whatever channel, yes. Kevin Liles 40:35You got to be doing it for rabies. He's doing it for reach. He's doing it. It's so much noise out there that you have to sometimes it's like, our chief innovative officer is Young Thug, so Young Thug, wearing a dress that people know I'm fashion, fashion shouldn't be limited, you know, but think about prints with his ass out. Think about Michael Jack and think about these guys. And again, why shouldn't we allow people to have an opinion to that that's the problem I have with a lot of people. People are really afraid of freedom. Because freedom comes check too, there's good and bad and freedom. But you're free. You're free to say and be and act and we should not judge. But we should know that people are doing things for certain reasons. The bigger your audience becomes, the bigger your reach, the bigger you become. And we can't just have Howard there by himself, can't get him broken down by itself. So what did they do to get there? What did they do to get there? I got Russell call me 10 times.Dan Runcie 41:35Oh, man, I do want to talk quick because yeah, I was gonna ask you about Thug being Chief Innovation Officer. So what does that role include? So what's what's on the agenda?Kevin Liles 41:45Change the world, change the perspective, change the conversation, changed the ideation process, don't limit yourself be as free of a person as you can be. And I actually run stuff by him. I'm thinking about doing a hot challenge with HBCUs. And my goal is to help these bands raise money. So I want to do $25 A night and campus did it. I did some around Pusha P and I kept that's not p. I said to him, I think we should do you know, I have family business. But I think you are the biggest family with lash out. So we made it out. When you have an innovative officer, there's no limitations. There's no job description, it’s to touch taste and tone of his very existence that allows people to come up with new ways and things to do. You know, when Mary J. Blige said good morning, gorgeous. It was therapy for that young person that gets bullied, but it was also therapy for her coming off the ship that she came off for. And I kept her I said, guys, this is not a song. This is going to help people get through life. And people have started adopting it and dads are now looking at their daughter saying good morning, gorgeous, looking at their wife that they take for granted in the morning, and saying good morning. Gorgeous. I don't make this shit up. Everybody, be free. And Thug, I'll check with you later on about what I'm thinking about next. Make sure I got the cool factor on it. Dan Runcie 43:08Love it. Yeah, make sure he doesn't treat you like that pirate. He said, Alex, you're up.Kevin Liles 43:15You couldn't make shit up. You couldn't make none of this up. You know what I mean,Dan Runcie 43:19It's beautiful. Yeah, I mean, perfect timing for that. I mean, and just lining up with the album and everything. That was perfect.Kevin Liles 43:25But it was not scripted. It was really cool. People started to show up the shows without you posted this thing. Dan Runcie 43:36Oh, man, that's what you know, you got a movement as well. You know, you got something. I will. Kevin, this has been great. Before we let you go though, is there anything else that you want to plug? Let the travel audience know about that 300 Hands on Deck.Kevin Liles 43:49I don't know if it's a plug. But I'm in search of the truth. There's a lot of talent in the world. And the reason why I feel what it means we partnership 300, Electra Entertainment, Sparta, 300 Studios, I'm creating possibilities and platforms for you guys to come and help change the world. So I would just like to enlist your audience to say you don't just have to be an artist. You don't have to just do marketing, or digital or finance or legal. There is some place for you with us. And so I'm sure I'll come in and hang out and you and I finally get in the same space. We can have a dinner, but let's keep the narrative or where we going not where we were.Dan Runcie 44:33Sounds good. And yeah, let's definitely do it. And Kevin, thanks again for coming on. And congrats to you again on great start to the year, big sale and everything. Keep trailblazingKevin Liles 44:42God bless you, man. Thank you. Appreciate it.Dan Runcie 44:44Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

Dazayah Walker is the Head of Investments at Quality Control Music, the label behind today’s most trendsetting artists like Lil Baby and Migos, Dazayah. She maintains QC’s investment portfolio, particularly within the startup space, which spans well beyond just music and entertainment. Being a 23-year-old venture capitalist is difficult as is. Now tack on being female and black? “It’s been a journey”, as Dazayah Walker shares with us in this episode of the Trapital podcast.Dazayah’s path to becoming a Venture Capitalist is as unorthodox as you’ll find in the venture capital world, but she’s stuck to the same principles that got her that opportunity to begin with — seeking out mentors, surrounding herself with a supportive community, and taking the learning process day-by-day. Before overseeing QC’s investments, Dazayah worked on the music side for the label. She began as an intern for QC, and worked her way through the ranks at the same time QC was taking the music industry by storm. Not only is Dazayah breaking down doors, but she’s also trying to leave them open for future aspiring VC’s with similar unconventional backgrounds. As Dazayah continues to learn the ins and outs of venture capital, she plans on creating initiatives to educate others about the world she operates in. To hear Dazayah’s future ambitions, plus everything else we covered in the show, reference the video chapters below: [0:00] Dazayah’s goals with her role[2:13] Dazayah’s Transition Into Venture Capital[5:29] What Is QC’s Investment Thesis? [6:35] The Pros And Cons Of Involving QC Artists Into Investments[9:16] What Does Dazayah Look For In A Company Before Investing? [10:49] QC Investing Beyond Just Music and Entertainment [10:45] Dazayah’s particular interest in Fintech[12:56] QC’s and Dazayah’s Involvement With Techstars[14:48] The Challenge Dazayah Faced Breaking Into The VC World[16:04] What Programs Have Helped Dazayah Adjust To The VC World? [17:40] What Was Behind QC’s Investment Into Riff? [18:50] QC’s Investment Portfolio Explained [20:00] “You Can Do This Too And This Is How”[23:30] Music-Wise, What Is Dazayah Most Excited About QC In Near Future?Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Dazayah Walker, @dazayah   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands-----------Dazayah Walker 00:00Finding success here and having a strong track record and proven portfolio and then be able to use that as a way to show people you can do this too, and this is how, let me show you how, let me be that person to help you understand and be a part of it.Dan Runcie 00:23Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Dazayah Walker, Head of Investments and the Operations Manager at Quality Control Music. This is an exciting role to have at a time like this. QC has been on a run the past few years and has really shaped what hip hop is sounded like, from artists like Migos, to City Girls, to Lil Baby, and then on the other side of this hip hop investing activity is growing faster than ever, and we're seeing more and more artists getting ICAP tables, getting involved with deals. So it's a really exciting time to have a role like this. I talked with Dazayah about what it's been like from her perspective, and representing and getting roles not just for QC as a firm, but for the artists that they represent, and how she has navigated the record label growing as fast as it has the past few years to venture capital landscape and how she's been able to navigate that and a whole lot more. Had a great conversation with her. Hope you enjoy it. Here's my chat with Dazayah Walker. All right, we got Dazayah Walker here today, who is the Head of Investments at Quality Control Music. Dazayah, welcome to the pod. Dazayah Walker 01:42Hello, I'm so happy to be here. Super excited. Let's do this. Dan Runcie 01:46Yeah, so one of the things that stuck out to me about you and your career, you had started as an intern at QC, and you've risen up the ranks there as the label as not just a record label, but as an entertainment company. And now with a corporate venture arm or brollies just continue to grow and expand. Dazayah Walker 02:05Yes. Dan Runcie 02:06Walk me through the steps. What was it like from when you started to where it is now, just with how fast things have been growing there? Dazayah Walker 02:13Yeah, it's been a great journey and experience for me, with this being my first job. There's been a lot of learning curves with that in itself. But it was definitely a privilege and a great opportunity to be able to see the growth of QC, because we've expanded in so many different ways since I started as an intern, and being able to be a part of that, witness that, learn from that I couldn't be in a better position. Dan Runcie 02:36And is there anything specific with the role that you have now that had drawn you to it or something specifically because I know you had started a bit more focused on operations? And then now we're obviously seeing much more on the investment side. But was there something about that opportunity that pulled you in? Dazayah Walker 02:52Yes, so getting to this side was definitely a path of, I would say divine ordering because me entering the opportunity at QC. Starting as an intern, I thought I just wanted to do music, work my way up to being a music industry executive. But as I became more in the groove, and learning more of the things that I like, things that I don't like, I really had to find my place. And when I discovered what venture capital was, because when I was at Spelman, I was an economics major. So I kind of have like, I've always been surrounded by that when I was in school, just the finance, track and everything like that. But me venturing into music was me following my passion or what I thought was my passion at that time. So when I discovered what venture capital was, it was actually kind of crazy to me that I hadn't learned about it when I was in school, considering the impact that Morehouse, our brother institution has, as far as their representation of black men in venture capital. It was just crazy to me that I was at an institution right across the street and had no idea that this industry even existed. So when I stumbled across VC and began learning about it, I just saw the opportunity for artists, athletes and entertainers to be involved and was curious as to why more people that look like us aren't represented in those spaces. So that's when you know, my research and dedication to being in this position really started. And then from there, you know, bringing that idea and really helped become what we're building today with quality Ventures has been amazing. Dan Runcie 04:26So talk to me about that piece about bringing this idea together. So was it you seeing the opportunity and seeing how much of a disconnect there was and then going into the team at QC to be like, hey, there's something big here and we have talent here that could be just as influential. Dazayah Walker 04:42Yes. So it was a moment where I had to really think about what legacy do I want to have, what value do I want to add, and being in this position, you know, I built relationships with, you know, our entire team. So I was somebody that, you know, they trusted and when I, you know, have something to say they were listening, and you know, they embraced any idea or anything that I had. So by, you know, telling them and showing them, you know, the opportunity that exists for us in this space, it was well-received. And now here we are deploying capital, making investments. And my goal is really for us to have that same little level of influence and impact that we have in music in the venture capital space, as well. So having that same strong presence and footprint in that industry, too.Dan Runcie 05:29So what does that thesis look like? What does that investment goal look like for QC specifically, because I'm sure it's more than just the financial aspect? There's the pitch and how it can help intersect and how the music itself and everything you're doing on the media and entertainment side can help with the venture opportunity too?Dazayah Walker 05:48Absolutely, so our biggest thing is adding value, adding strategic value. So for us being in a unique position of being that entity that defines culture and creates culture, I feel like we're uniquely positioned to leverage our artists and our athletes to really help grow these companies that we see as potential winners.Dan Runcie 06:11And are there ever any specific moments where folks are reaching out? And there's, of course, the interest in having QC on the cap table, but then people reaching out about specific artists, whether it's like, oh, well, we want to have City Girls on here, specifically, or we want to be able to have a Lil Baby on here? How has it been with that piece of advice, I'm sure that could be an interesting discussion, especially from your landscape with all of that. Dazayah Walker 06:35So that happens a lot as well. And it all boils down to seeing if the artist even aligns with what you're building. Because when you're working with early stage, or pre-seed stage companies, that may be the very first version of whatever they're building, there's so many more iterations yet to happen. And as the entity continues to grow, and transform, the artists that they thought may be ideal for what they're building as a representation may not be as they continue to, you know, redefine what it is that they're building. So yes, you know, we get opportunities all the time for our artists, which was another reason why, like the opportunity to bridge the gap and intersect music and technology was so evident and clear to me, you know, to pursue and to do, because those opportunities and those deals are always flowing. But really being in a position being someone that knows how to evaluate those opportunities, and educate, you know, the artist, or the athlete or whoever may be to let them know, like, this is why this is a good, you know, opportunity or something to look at and this is why it isn't.Dan Runcie 07:41I also imagine that there's likely people that may be reaching out because they may want just the exposure that may come right, they may be like, “Oh, well, if y'all invest can Lil Baby, give us a shout out for the product on some song. And I could see there being you know, some pushback on that, because obviously, you all would see the opportunity as being greater than that.” But how was that piece of it been? Because I know, I've heard similar from folks in the entertainment space when they're looking to have not just celebrities, but artists specifically on the cap table.Dazayah Walker 08:13Well, personally, I don't think a founder having that mindset is necessarily wrong because in the VC ecosystem now, capital isn't an issue. So getting the money having people to, you know, write a check for you isn't the hard part. It’s actually once you get that money, how can you use that, you know, relationship that you now have to help build your company or grow whatever it is that you're building. So I feel like a founder having that perspective isn't necessarily a bad thing, because you want to have partners that can help you grow your company and add value in different ways. So if there is an opportunity for an artist, if it's something that they really love, you know, to be an ambassador for it, and to push it.Dan Runcie 08:58So when you're evaluating startups, and when you're evaluating artists, or not artists, founders, specifically, what are you looking for, like, what is your criteria set? And what are those things whether it's tangible or intangible that you're looking for that clears that over the hurdle to be like, Yes, this is what we want to invest in?Dazayah Walker 09:16So I would break it down into three things. The first thing I would say, what is the problem that you're trying to solve? Is this a problem that is unique to you and from like, or where you're from? Or is this a problem that is affecting a wide market of people? So first, understanding the problem, and if the solution that they're attempting to build is a solution for the greater good? The second thing is really understanding their team, like, who do you have helping you build this? What people do need a position to help you build it? And like how much traction Have you gotten so far. And the first, and I think the most important thing is the founder, when you're working with companies that are likely pre-revenue, maybe they have a very, very early version of their product, you're placing a bet on the founder. So knowing the type of person to look for, or the type of characteristics to look for in a founder, I think are very important. Somebody that is determined, somebody that is all in like willing to make the investment themselves because how do you expect me or someone to make an investment when you haven't even, you know, fully invested yourself in this in this idea? So I will say those are the top three things that I look at when I meet with founders and new companies.Dan Runcie 10:33That makes sense. And then in terms of the industries themselves, is there any type of sector that you're particularly looking for, or any other type of industry that you feel is most aligned with what QC or Quality Ventures is after?Dazayah Walker 10:49Yeah, so as a company, Quality Ventures isn't looking in specific industries and verticals. I know a lot of people think since you know, we have Quality Control Music, we're looking strictly at music-based companies and startups. And that's not necessarily true. Like I said, our whole thesis is really about us being in a position to add value. But for me, specifically, I really like looking at fintech companies, I think that Fintech is the next market to really boom so paying attention to the trends, paying attention to what people are saying, paying attention to what problems are they need to be solved. So for me personally, the industry of interest to me is fintech.Dan Runcie 11:28And what is it about fintech specifically that sticks out to you or interest you?Dazayah Walker 11:32I like it because I think it's time for a change as far as how money is viewed, how money is moved. Like I know, you probably have seen how crypto, everybody's talking about crypto, and preparation for the metaverse, like, all of those things are happening strategically. And by being aware of what's happening in fintech, you know how the money is moving what the future of money and finances look like. So that you can kind of put yourself in position to not only be educated about it but know how to make your next move when it comes to what the future looks like.Dan Runcie 12:05Right? That makes sense. And I think especially when you look more broadly at the definition of FinTech, and you look at companies like Coinbase, and you look at some of the partnerships that they've had with organizations like the NBA, or even the United Masters, there's clearly an alignment where even if it isn't in the quote-unquote, entertainment landscape, this touches so much. So that's why I think you see so many artists and companies in this space that want to tap into all these areas, even if they're not necessarily what you may think is in that industry. Dazayah Walker 12:38Exactly. Dan Runcie 12:39And with that, I mean, for you, I know that another partnership that QC has, at least on the investment side, from what I've seen is in Techstars Music, and I saw that you're a mentor there and that QC more broadly as a partner. So how has that experience been?Dazayah Walker 12:56It's been amazing. Just the Techstars music team in general have been a great like resource for us. So when the program, when we joined the program last year, we kind of were thrown in when things were already in motion, like they were already preparing for demo day, the companies in the cohort were already selected. But now I was able to be a part of the process of you know, picking the companies for the new cohort, being a part of like all the member meetings and the mentor meetings. So with me still being in a very early part of my career, I'm always looking for opportunities to learn and experience new things. And Techstars has been an amazing teacher for me. Just seeing things from that perspective, working with an accelerator, like working with founders and seeing them in that perspective has definitely helped me I feel like become a better venture capitalist, just seeing things from different angles and different perspectives. Because honestly, once I made the decision to transition into venture capital, I was a little discouraged because I am entering it through a very unconventional background. So any opportunity that I have to learn and observe and ask questions, it's been amazing, because it's been it's been a rough journey for me to be able to confidently say, this is what I'm doing. I know that I'm uniquely qualified to do that thing, and, you know, moving like that. So it's been a journey, Dan, I tell you,Dan Runcie 14:22I could imagine I mean, there are not many people that look like you that are doing this type of work. And when you compound that with what people already may assume is standard for what they expect for people working at, the type of company you work at that just compounds it further. I mean, what are some of the things that you had done early on to try to, you know, either break through that or try to navigate that the best, and I could only imagine how tough that could be at times.Dazayah Walker 14:50Yeah, I would definitely say reaching out to people asking questions, really being a sponge, absorbing as much information and knowledge as I can. Because making this pivot into an entire new industry is scary, because like, I built my network in my name and music. And now, I feel like making a career shift almost as still such an early point in my career was very, very scary. But some of those same like tactics and things that I did to be successful or reach the level of success that I had in music, I applied those same principles to me, you know, trying to achieve a level of success in venture capital. So really finding mentors and finding a community to learn from to be supported by and to be supportive of, and just taking things day by day. And knowing that every day is an opportunity to learn something new, and, you know, not taking opportunity for granted because I know I'm in a very unique and special position. And I'm grateful for the position that I'm in. So really showing people why I, you know, I'm deserving of the role that I've been placed in.Dan Runcie 16:04Definitely. And I also think, too, whether it's programs like HBCU, VC, and obviously, you representing that being an alum from HBCU them recognizing that this is a pipeline that not only is a challenge, but how can they help bridge that gap? And, you know, are there any specific organizations, whether it's like that or others that have been helpful for you as you've gone along this path?Dazayah Walker 16:26Yeah, so definitely HBCU BC, considering I was a fellow, that was an amazing program with amazing teachers, and I've really been able to, like tap into that community, which has been amazing. Another community that I'm really grateful for is Black VC and the Black Venture Capital Consortium, both of those organizations have been super supportive and welcoming of me. And it's things like that, that are very important for not even just me being a young black woman, but you know, being a person of color trying to enter another space that is male-dominated, white-male-dominated. So just having that comfort of knowing that there are people that support you and want to uplift you and see you do amazing things.Dan Runcie 17:11Yeah, definitely. I could see that for sure. I could see that. Well. Let's circle back quick. I do want to talk about some of the public investments that you've made. I know that Riff was one of them, that you all were in, was that one of them? Riff, yes. Okay. So what was the process like for that investment? What was it that attracted you about that company?Dazayah Walker 17:31Well, Riff isn't one that I necessarily, like found from the beginning and worked all the way to the point where we cut the check. But Riff has been an amazing company in our portfolio, I'm super excited for what they're building, just seeing them being disruptive and combining elements that we as consumers love, I'm really excited for the journey of Riff and being able to be a great partner to them, and just seeing them grow. And you know, being along that journey in that ride with them, but they're definitely building something amazing. And I'm excited for, you know, the masses to really, you know, tap into it, learn about it, and really get engaged with it.Dan Runcie 18:10Yeah, I can see that. Are there any that are public that you've worked on that you can talk more about?Dazayah Walker 18:17Yeah, so one of my favorite companies in our portfolio, which is actually one of the companies from the previous class of Techstars. It's called Faith. And this is one that I really, really loved. Because not only did our relate to like the platform, just to give you a little bit of background Faith is an app for fans. It allows fans to come together and really live within their fandom. And with me being a past fangirl, I immediately fell in love with what she was building. And the founder, she's a black woman, she's a solopreneur, which is a challenge in itself. So just seeing what she's built so far, the amount of traction that she's received, and just how far she has come has been super inspirational for me, you know, being involved, even in like the due diligence and saying, I think this is a great company, I think this is one that we really should pay attention to, to the point of us actually deploying capital to that company. That was super cool, and really amazing. And that's another company in our portfolio that I'm super excited about. And I feel like not only will my generation, like, enjoy the app, but the generation underneath me will as well, so…Dan Runcie 19:23Nice. That makes sense. Yeah. And I feel with apps like that in platforms. I mean, not only do you have the direct connection, but I'm sure you being able to have the connection to it. I mean, these are the type of things obviously it's still early stage, you know, but gets marked up you continue to have that influence over it and you never know where that could take you. I feel like that's kind of the exciting thing, especially for the people I talk to you that are that start their careers in VC, as opposed to the other way around the, you know, the folks that may have done something on the product side and then go into vc.Dazayah Walker 19:56Yeah, but my goal overall, really is to, you know, find my groove in this and really, you know, find success for myself and I define success within this space is being able to invest in companies, have exits, and you know, have a strong portfolio, so that I can get to the point where I'm able to educate and inform, because I feel like, part of the reason why a lot of artists, athletes, and entertainers, which is, you know, the people that I'm used to working with and being around, which is why I really strongly urge them to get into this space, and why I feel like I'm in the position, and the person to really do that work, is because they don't know, like, there's that kind of barrier. Like they may see things on social media of other artists that have invested in Gods, you know, there's money back, but really having someone there to educate them and be that bridge and that conduit from, you know, them being in the position and the level of influence, and you know, the reach that they have, and showing them and being that person to bring deals to them to help them leverage that so that not only are they able to, you know, be represented in this space, but build generational wealth for them and their families. Like that's the bigger picture. And that's the goal for me. And that's the work that I really want to do and look forward to doing. So finding success here and having a strong, like track record and proven portfolio, and then being able to use that as a way to show people you can do this too. And this is how, let me show you how, let me be that person to help you understand and be a part of it.Dan Runcie 21:32Yeah, that's powerful. Because I feel like especially for you or you're in your position now. There's a lot of people that I'm sure look at you being like, oh, Dazayah, how can we get in that? Like, how do you were able to, you know, connect those dots. And then you obviously, you know, I'm sure you feel like you're deep into yourself, you're learning as you're continuing to grow. But you know that in the near future, you will be able to have enough. And that can look like a number of things, whether that's a course or some other type of platform to just share and disseminate this information. Because not only is it important for people to hear it, it's important for people to hear it from people who you know, look like you they if you want to inspire, you know, especially if there's black women across the country across the world, I want to hear it, the more folks that could share their experience, the better that is.Dazayah Walker 22:16Absolutely, I agree 100%. Like, the more you know, the better position that you can put yourself in. And I just think it's a lack of knowledge, people just not knowing, like, what these things mean, how to get in on deals, how much to invest, like, there's so many layers to it. And I feel like if people were a bit more comfortable, they'd be more open and investing their money in other ways than the traditional stocks and bonds or, you know, how people see fit to save their money or invest their money, I should say. Dan Runcie 22:47Yeah, especially now I feel like we're seeing things like whether it's the accredited investor rule or other things just continuing to be challenged, we're gonna see more and more people investing the definition of an investor and who can get involved with things. As those barriers continue to lower, the options increase. And when that happens, it just provides more space for education. So yeah, you're definitely on the right track with all that stuff has ever said. 100%Dazayah Walker 23:13Thank you. That really means a lot. Thank you.Dan Runcie 23:16Yeah, well, um, I know that, you know, we've covered a lot in this. But before we let you go, I do want to get a quick take from you on what are you most excited for? What's coming through the QC portfolio for the rest of 2022? And I guess portfolio, that'd be more on the artists side. Specifically, what are you excited for on that front. Dazayah Walker 23:36I'm just excited for the continued growth of Quality Control as an empire. It hasn't even been 10 years that QC has been in existence. And for us to have made so much leeway, create so much history have so much impact within that 10-year window. I'm excited to see what the next five years look like for us. But even just in the next year, in the next 12 months, I'm excited to see the continued growth and effort of our team, like our team has grown dramatically. So if we were able to do and accomplish so much with such a small team, I'm excited to see what the next 12 months look like for our expansion and our growth and just everything to come and everything that we're building, publicly and silently. I'm just grateful for the position that I'm in and be able to be a part of that and even say those things. So the next year it's going to look like a lot of wins continued success and growth and expansion for all of us.Dan Runcie 24:38That's exciting. I feel like the past decade for QC has been incredible. I think it's so tough for indie labels to be able to have that type of run in the fact that they have says a lot. So I'm excited. I mean, as a fan of all of this, I'm excited to see what happened. But yeah, before we let you go, is there anything else you want to plug or let the Trapital audience know about?Dazayah Walker 25:00I should say this is great, Dan, I absolutely love what you're doing what you're building, you're spreading a message that needs to be heard by so many. And you're not only inspiring me, but you're inspiring people that you may not even know that you're touching. So keep doing the work that you're doing. This was awesome. Thank you so much.Dan Runcie 25:19Thank you. I appreciate that. Appreciate that. We'll do. Thanks, Dazayah.Dazayah Walker 25:23All right. Thank you, Dan.Dan Runcie 25:28 If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

Take a quick look at Frank Cooper’s resume and you might think, “what HASN’T he done?” He’s both Berkeley- and Harvard-educated. Coming out of school, Frank cut his teeth with two iconic labels — Motown Records and Def Jam. And most recently, he’s been Chief Marketing Officer for world-renown brands like Pepsi, BlackRock, and breaking news, he just took the same role with VISA.  But if you ask Frank, his early years inside the music industry formed the backbone of his illustrious career. It’s during this time period where Frank developed cultural aptitude — and specifically, how to connect larger societal needs with brands he’s led. Frank’s unique pedigree that spans music, entertainment, and finance makes his views on business all the more fascinating. And believe me, Frank has a lot of thoughts about today’s ever-changing music landscape — whether it’s in the inflow of capital or the ripples that Web 3.0 will create. Here’s all the talking points Frank and I covered on today’s episode of Trapital:Episode Highlights[2:12] How Working In The Music Industry Laid The Foundation For Frank’s Career[6:37] Differences Between Hip Hop and Grunge Rock In The Mid ‘90s[8:15] How O.G. Artists “Set The Table” For Today’s Artist Entrepreneurs [11:56] How Frank Put Together Beyoncé and Pepsi $50 Million Deal [15:45] Frank Reviews The Latest Super Bowl Halftime Show (And Names The Best One Of All Time)[20:35] Helping Blackrock Create A New Purpose Statement Beyond Purely Profit[23:48] How The Big Short Movie Convinced Frank To Join The Financial Industry [26:22] Frank’s Thoughts About NFTs, Metaverse, And Web 3.0[29:37] Early Tech Adoption Among Hip-Hop Artists Over The Years[31:05] Does Frank Own Anything In His Digital Wallet?[34:05] Frank Thinks Some Brands Are Too Early To Web 3.0[37:18] Frank’s Harvard Business Review About Diversity In The Workplace[38:18] Clarence Avant’s Influence On Frank’s Career[43:17] What’s One Of The Best Pieces Of Advice Frank Has Ever Received?Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Frank Cooper III  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands______________Frank Cooper 0:00  I'm actually not a big believer in traditional financial literacy by itself. I think all the research I've seen suggests that it doesn't change behavior because it's too academic, it's filled with jargon, it's long-form, you know? People's eyes glaze over when you're having the conversation, but I do believe that financial education is absolutely critical.Dan Runcie 0:25  Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Frank Cooper, who is just named the new Chief Marketing Officer at Visa. Frank and I recorded this episode before the announcement, so we didn't talk about it here. But I was glad to have Frank on because his experience has been so deep in entertainment, in branding and in marketing. Dating back to his time as an executive at Motown, Def Jam, and then more recently, his time with Pepsi, Buzzfeed and BlackRock. And when you think about his career, it is the perfect combination of understanding brands, what they can learn from the entertainment space and how he's brought that to each sector, which is why it was so relevant to have him on this podcast. We talked about some of the deals he had done with Beyonce and other major artists. We also talked about broader trends with marketing, brands, what they can learn from creators, why financial literacy is so important for Frank and a whole lot more. Had a great time talking with him. Hope you enjoy this one. Here's my chat with Frank Cooper.All right, today, we got Frank Cooper with us, who is a longtime marketing executive, currently CMO at BlackRock, but you started your career in the music industry, which I always love to see. So, it will be great to start there with you first, welcome. It's great to have you. Frank Cooper 2:11  Thanks, Dan. Great to be here.Dan Runcie 2:12  Yeah, it'd be great to start off with the music career piece of it, because you worked at Motown and you worked at Def Jam as well. And you worked at both of those labels at pretty influential times for them. What stands out most to you from that time? What are you most proud of?Frank Cooper 2:26  Wow! Well, you know, first of all, it's funny because people say you came from the music industry, how are you connecting this to what you're doing, whether that was at PepsiCo, or here at BlackRock, and I got to tell you, those are some of the most foundational experiences that have shaped pretty much everything that I've done since. And when I think back to Motown, Motown was, was interesting, because, you know, Motown early on was all about assimilation, right? It's about taking black culture and cultivating it in such a way that it can appeal broadly. You know, and how the music sounds, the way they walk, the way they talk, etc. It gave you Smokey Robinson, Diana Ross, The Jackson 5, and Marvin Gaye. And that worked really well. In the 90s, it became more about how to evolve that. And so, I thought it was a really interesting juncture. And I was really excited to be there because, you know, at that time, people didn't really want to talk about pure assimilation. They want to be authentic to themselves. And so how do you take that Motown ethos and make it work within, you know, the culture of that time. And, you know, at the time we had Boyz II Men, ABC, and Queen Latifah, and it was fascinating to see that I think we're still at that juncture where R&B still trying to find its place, honestly, and we can talk more about that. But I think Motown at that time became a symbol for how to evolve RMB in a way that fit the culture of the day. Def Jam was completely the opposite. And people look back at it. People today think it was inevitable, they think, you know, hip hop's the number one genre across the world and it seems inevitable, but at the time, some people were wondering whether hip hop at the last, you know, there's: Hey, is this a fad or not? And what I loved about it was that those who were in that game, those were at Def Jam at the time; you understood that this was not just about the music, it's about the deep cultural sensibility that actually propelled that whole genre, you know. Doing it on your own, operating outside of the mainstream, overcoming struggle, and teaching people how to overcome struggle. And so, for me, that became like the most invigorating part of being there Def Jam, and you just saw artists come through that at the time were just creating incredible momentum. You know, we had the month of the man with Method Man and Redman, now we had Jay-Z come through Kanye, you know, and DMX. And it was just this massive kind of momentum that kept building and it all for me at least reinforced this idea of them at their best. They're teaching people how to overcome struggle. And by the mid-90s, what I thought was the most interesting law and that's probably why they in the history of music, one of the more interesting time periods because you had the flannel shirts up in Seattle, the grunge movement happening. And that was had a lot of momentum, and you had hip hop, and you look at the trajectory of those two genres; they went completely in the opposite direction. And grunge was purely about suburban angst, you know, you know, like: Oh, my God, you know, I don't have meaning in you know, what do I do? And I'm not trying to belittle it, but that's kind of where the center of gravity was. And meanwhile hip hop I was like, how do we win, despite the fact that the mainstream has their foot out trying to trip us up? How do we win? How do we get past it? How do we overcome struggle? How do we do it on our own? And to me, that's what I remember more than anything else. And then finally, the artists that I've connected with the most, were the ones that actually embraced that the most, I loved Chuck D and Public Enemy, you know, and took the Public enemy to me, you know, representative, probably the more extreme version of that. I love Jay-Z, and how can you not love Jay-Z and what he's accomplished? And then some people may, you know, Kanye West, Kanye is Kanye. But Kanye, to me is genius. Because Kanye was able to change our sensibility of what hip hop could be, you know, at that time. He was using music sources that others weren't using, he was using voice in a different way. The lyrics were not as combative as some others, they gave expanded the universal what was possible in hip hop. And I think Kanye played a central role in that. And so, I really have a lot of respect for him and what he did at that time for Def Jam, and I've always carried it with me.Dan Runcie 6:37  That piece about the artists specifically in the grunge era and in hip hop at that same time, I think it's so key because when people talk a lot about Gen X and Generation X, I think the first thought that may go to people's minds is not just grunge with thinking of the image of Kurt Cobain, or you know, something a Billy Corgan from The Smashing Pumpkins, or one of those in all of what they embodied. But on the other side of that ice cube, Dre and Snoop Dogg are also Gen X and have a very different vibe in terms of what they wanted their music to represent. Not that angst isn't something that they didn't have in their young 20s as well. But it was a very different way of communicating their reality, their experience, and I think people don't always necessarily connect that when they talk about Gen X, at least it in a mainstream way. Frank Cooper 7:27  No, Dan, I think that’s exactly right. And, and you know, what's fascinating is that they both were, both those genres, were tackling the same problem, right? They both looked out and said: Man, these traditional institutions are kind of failing us. I can't rely on them as much as I used to. The definition of success that's been put out there, that's something that I adhere to. They were fighting against the same things, but they took two different paths. And I personally believe that the reason, one of the reasons why hip hop prevailed in that is because it helped you to move forward, you know. If you were, it was invigorating, it would inspire you to try to move forward, not to wallow in any kind of sadness. And I think there's value in that too. But it was about: Okay, it is what it is. Now, how do we move forward? Yeah, make it happen on your own. And they did it not only in the lyrics, they did it in the entirety of their behavior. You know, that's when you started to see the artists become entrepreneurs, you started to see them actually extend their brand and to other businesses. And they built an enterprise, each of these ones of those that were successful to build an enterprise based on the music. And that, to me has become the blueprint, a blueprint for how artists are thinking about it today. Even if you fast forward to this current line. I've never seen this much money flow into music, you know, investors, now buying out catalogs, and we're part of that too, we announce a recent partnership with influence media, Lylette Pisarro and René McLean. But I've never seen this much money flow into music. But to me, it's an extension of what hip hop started, which is there is no inauthenticity in. You're getting paid, you can get paid, you can cash a check, you can extend your business in a variety of ways, and still remain true to yourself. And I think many people today who are reaping the benefits of that should look back to the early days of hip hop and fake and thank those artists. Dan Runcie 9:21  And I think that speaks a lot to your career as well. Because you were able to take your experience. You saw the potential of what these artists could do with their brands. And then you were able to work with a lot of the brands themselves to help bring those artists to the forefront and be: Hey, you can help tell the story for this brand. We can help augment not just what you're doing, but help this brand do it as well. And especially in that time in the 2000s- 2010s, we started to see more, and more that you're at the forefront for so much of that.Frank Cooper 9:50  Yeah, you know, one thing that always bothered me when I saw celebrity sponsorships and endorsements and advertisements, it was purely transactional. People would say, you know: I'll write a check to these artists and put them in my commercial. And we'll have the most beautiful drink shot and this commercial, they're like: Oh, closer, closer, closer here, beautiful. We've captured it, we won. But most fans and consumers, they understand that game. And they're like: You know what, I'm glad that ours cut that check, beautiful thing, and I'm happy for that. But I don't believe there's any real connection between that artist and the brand or that product. And therefore, that was completely wasted money. And so, the angle that I took when I took it is that I knew that virtually every celebrity that I've ever met, they all have their own aspirations. They want to do certain things that they cannot do within their current industries, there's always an artist, a filmmaker who wants to make a certain kind of film that they can't make. There’s an artist that wants to do a certain song or put it out in a certain way that they can't do, or they want to extend into new areas. And so, I spent most of my time trying to understand: What are their aspirations? What are they trying to accomplish that they can't accomplish to their own ecosystem? And found that connection point to what we wanted to do. And to me that was the unlock, is like, if I can find that shared aspiration, then I can start to express shared values, shared experiences, a shared worldview that was true. And to me, if you can capture that you don't always win on it. But if you can capture that, that's gold. And I tried to do that across, you know, as many artists as I could.Dan Runcie 11:25  Yeah. And I think even that breakdown that you had, you're seeing more of the good examples. Now just seeing some of the great deals that come through, you're still seeing some of the ones that you may shake your head out, whether it's the Instagram posts, or they're just getting a check for something. But in general, you're starting to see more of the long-term value add. And I feel like the Beyonce deal that you had done with Pepsi specifically, that feels like one that falls more in line with there's a longer-term opportunity here to really highlight and tell that story.Frank Cooper 11:56  Yeah, you know, it's funny, because when I first started having the conversations with Beyonce and her team, I was like: Okay, this is a long shot, you know. Beyonce was very particular, and rightly, and, you know, reluctant to do anything that didn't fit what she truly believed and didn't fit her values. So, I spent a lot of time with the team trying to understand what they wanted to accomplish. And you know, her part of her genius, I think she's genius on many levels, but part of it is, she understood that she wanted to release things in ways that artists have not done before. And she wanted to create content that complemented the music in ways that artists have not done before, like a visual album. And so, we can help with it, you know, we can help launch the album, we've got millions of packages that are going out every day. And so, what if we did a bespoke design in those packages, and it relates to your album. What if we actually helped fund that visual album. What if we helped put your single out, but most important what if you got in front of 120 million people in the Super Bowl halftime, and then release something after that, you know, it became the most powerful ad possible for you to drive sales of your album. And that's really what made the connection because, you know, if I went to Beyonce in our team and said: Here's a piece of paper, I'm going to slip it across the table to you, and there's a number on here that should make you fall out and excitement. I still would not have considered that there would never have happened, there was no doubt in my mind, there was no amount of money alone that would get convinced her to do it. But it was understanding what she was trying to accomplish and how we could participate in that in a way that benefited both of us. And so that's one for me, one of the most extraordinary deals that I've been involved in, but also one of the most extraordinary experiences because I've learned in part why she is so good. And it was driving me crazy at the time. But she was 100%, right? You know we did, we did a commercial. And what I didn't realize is that, but you look at the commercial and say: Hey, make some edits here, there. She looked at it herself, frame by frame. And then she broke down the arc. And then she, I mean, she was into it and intense. And what I realized is not just Beyonce; with other artists, I’ve seen it with Snoop, you know, Nicki Minaj, I’ve seen it with a wide range of artists is that they put it in, they put the work in. It's not like they say: I'm this brilliant artist, and I'm going to come in and just kind of still use my brilliance and move on. They actually put in the time, and they're focused and intense. And they want to make sure it is the best product they can put out no matter what they're putting out.Dan Runcie 14:31  Yeah, with her specifically, you've seen that with each album. I mean, it's like find some way to just level up and continue to do that. And even thinking back to that deal and from the consumer perspective, just seeing how everything lined up. I mean, she put the lights out after the show at that Super Bowl, right? It was something else. But the one piece I did want to clarify with that. So, if the Super Bowl wasn't in the conversation, is it fair to assume that all that deal wouldn't have worked that needed to be if they'd put it over the edge?Frank Cooper 15:02  No, no, it would have worked in either way, because I think the Super Bowl definitely contributed to it. Because how many times you're going to have a simultaneous audience of 100 million-plus people watching something. But there were enough other things that she really wanted to do that we could help on. And that didn't involve just the check, you know, the infrastructure of Pepsi at the time, it could be helpful in so many different ways. And I think what's the collection of all those things together, pull the Super Bowl out, I would have added something else that it was done a full-length film together something, you know, but there would have been something that would meet her desire to break the boundaries of what has been done before, and that PepsiCo could actually help her deliver. Dan Runcie 15:45  Talking about the Super Bowl. What did you think about the show that we had this past year with Dre, Snoop and 50 Cent, Kendrick, Marry?Frank Cooper 15:53  So, man, I was almost in tears in a way because, you know, I am. So before I left PepsiCo, I renegotiated a 10 year deal with a couple of billion dollars. And I got to know some of the owners, definitely got to know the NFL headquarters very well. And I thought I would never see that day where you had that lineup of artists, you know, from Dre to Snoop to Kendrick to Mary J. Blige, Eminem, and 50 Cent, but you would have never seen that day. But more importantly, I thought I would never see it presented in such an authentic way. They didn't tone down the visuals. And I think it was the absolute best performance I've ever seen, I don't think was the best performance I've ever seen overall, but the collection of that effort, and the collection of the artists and the energy and the visual presentations. For me, this is, this was a seminal moment that I think we should all remember because it will open up the doors for many other artists to come. And what I realized is that they knew it too because you could see, by the way, they were very careful what they did and made sure that they stay within certain bounds. The only person who did something semi-controversial was Eminem, right? And when he nailed it, this to me was a really powerful moment, I thought I would never see it. And I hope that it's not a one-off. You know, I hope that you know, as we see future NFL productions as well as the Super Bowl that we see more black artists, and that we see hip hop, in particular, play a more central role.Dan Runcie 17:20  I agree. I think that this one specifically helped almost if you look back to the one, they had in Atlanta, and I feel like there's a lot of talks there about why could've represented Atlanta's soul, R&B, hip hop vibes that, you know, are so tremendous to that city, and then a show that didn't end up showing that 100%. And I feel like: Okay, we have this here. And if you just look at the slide, there are so many cities coming up where you could see something similar for these types of artists, so that that could be special.Frank Cooper 17:51  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, so disappointing when they happen in Atlanta. It's like, wait a minute, are you kidding me? Atlanta is all about music. I can lead.Dan Runcie 18:00  It's like, I mean, Maroon Five definitely deserves to be on that stage. I mean, they're one of the biggest groups of the past two decades, but from a time in place, and all the things lining up. It was like, come on. Yeah, I know. And they got out what do you got? We got Big Boy, and almost as like a, you know, afterthought to be like: Okay, here, we're hearing the chatter. Let's see who we could get for this one. But that's it.Frank Cooper 18:25  Let's give him half a second, don’t look too long, you know, this probably, they will never let me program it. Because I would have gone back, I would have dug in the crates a bit. I would say, you know, let's go to the Goodie Mob. All right, let's bring them back. But you could also they could just soften it up. I mean, you know, Toni Braxton, you know, the whole of face lineup from a certain era could have been on their. Ludacris, He's a mainstream star now. There's so much they could have done. And hopefully, they saw through this, that it was a lost opportunity. And I think they're seeing what's happening on social media from this last Super Bowl, that it's a powerful force that they can tap into, in a way that actually improves the NFL brand. And so, I think the fear was, in some way, this is going to alienate those who are not on the coast, you know, the Midwest. But I hope the realization is now that hip hop is not isolated to the coast. You know, hip hop is foundational across every geographic territory today.Dan Runcie 19:25  Right. And especially with this one, too. You had Eminem, who Midwest, one of the biggest artists of the past, you know, a couple of decades to so we'll see. I know you mentioned that this was the best one. Which one do you get the number one for Super Bowl?Frank Cooper 19:41  Well, you know, for me, the one that was most special for me was Prince. And when he did Purple Rain, and it started to rain, it's like a whole thing was magical. It was incredible.Dan Runcie 19:51  It was poetic. It was like you couldn't script this. It was beautiful. Shifting gears, a bit. Want to talk a bit more about your role and your experience right now at Blackrock. You joined a few years ago, and it was a similar type of role, given the CMO position that you've had, you've had other companies, but definitely a different type of industry and a different type of sector that you had worked in up to that point. But in hearing you in other interviews and things you've talked about, trying to bring financial literacy and elevate that to the discussion has been an important piece of that. So, it'd be great to hear a little bit more about what that's been like for you since you've been there and how that has taken shape.Frank Cooper 20:35  Yeah, you know, one of the things that I don't know if this is a risk or not, but at least one of the things I did when I first came in was trying to make, trying to convince the leadership of Blackrock that it needed to have a sense of purpose that wouldn’t be on profits, that wouldn't be on money. Working closely with a bunch of other people, we were successful in doing that. And part of that purpose statement that we ended up with, included this idea of financial inclusion, we help more and more people experience financial well-being. And so, getting that built into the core of a company where we say, hey, that's our ultimate goal. Yes, money and profits are an outcome that we have to have to succeed. But our ultimate goal is to help more and more people experience financial well-being. So, by having financial inclusion built into it, that was a huge step. But I mentioned earlier, that music helped me quite a bit. And the part that helped me is that I looked at culture first, like what is happening in culture that is urgent and important, and that our industry can address. One of the things that's happening in culture, for sure, and you can see it all over the world is that more people are feeling like they're excluded from the opportunities for economic mobility, that they don't believe the system is working in their favor, they don't have access to improve their own prosperity. And so, you know, for me, you take that cultural lens and work back to the industry of questions, what can we do to improve that? I'm actually not a big believer in traditional financial literacy by itself. I think all the research I've seen, suggests that it doesn't change behavior because it's too academic, it’s filled with jargon, it's long-form, you know, people's eyes glaze over when you're having the conversation. But I do believe that financial education is absolutely critical. So, what I've started to do is think about what are the elements that can help people move forward and become investors. So, it's increasing their savings. And I think it's four things I think, is knowledge, skills, community, and access. And so, if you go to Reddit, or one of the trending, one of the most substantial subreddit threads, or at least around financial education. People want to know, like, give me the information, but also helped me build the skills, and then give me a community, it gives me some support. And all I need after that is some access, make it easier for me to come in, and make it safe for me to try. And so that's what I've been focused on is really trying to figure out how to improve the knowledge, skills, community, and access so that people have a better shot at increasing their own sense of prosperity.Dan Runcie 23:11  Yeah. And from the work you've done so far, I feel like I could see those connections, you started the Tik Tok page. I've been posting more they're trying to connect a bit more with not just the younger generation, but with being able to break those things down. And I know another thing that you had said, once you really liked how a movie like The Big Short was able to help boil these principles down and communicate in a way to be like: Hey, here it is, these concepts aren't as complex as they may always seem, but let's do it in layman's terms. And I feel like I could see elements of that with some of the content that you've all put out recently.Frank Cooper 23:48  Yeah, you know, one of the things that convinced me that I should come into BlackRock and move over to financial services was watching that film The Big Short, which is kind of ironic, right? Because it was not a favorable view of the financial services industry.Dan Runcie 24:02  A lot of people may watch that movie and not want to come work at BlackRock.Frank Cooper 24:08  But what stuck with me is like, you know, a lot of friends who were in investment, and I used to ask him these questions like: What's this thing called a credit default swap? And he would explain it to me, and I'm like: I think I'm fairly smart. I have no idea what you're talking about, like, you know, and I just give up. When I saw The Big Short, I saw those interstitials. And you saw Selena in the club, you know, or the late Anthony Bourdain in the restaurant, or Margie in the tub of champagne. They explained those concepts in really simple terms that anyone can understand. And for me, that was like an awakening was like: You know what? It's not that complicated really. It's just that some people are making it complicated. What if we can actually deliver it in ways that people like to learn today, you know, short-form, jargon-free, highly visual with relatable role models. Man, that could be like a really fascinating thing because then suddenly people could start to take steps forward and become part of the benefits of saving and investing. And so, it was a really defining moment for me. And I’ve taken that logic, and I'm trying to apply it today, you know, in Tik Tok, already, there's already a movement happening on Tick Tock, I mean, if you look at #moneytalk, you know, it's one of the top hashtags already, but it is, in my mind the perfect format for what I'm talking about short-form, highly visual, jargon-free and relatable role models. And, you know, I'm excited we've just launched. So, it's really early days, but I'm really excited about the potential of that platform and other platforms to find a crack in the code on financial education and financial literacy, and financial inclusion. But I think that is the pathway for our own sense of purpose of including more people the benefits of investing.Dan Runcie 25:55  Definitely. Yeah, I mean, it's consuming so much attention and has so much mindshare over a generation, you have to be where they're at. I'm curious if there are other channels, are there other areas that you're pursuing, or you're considering doing especially this next year. I feel like things are moving so fast with everything happening, whether it's Web 3.0 or the metaverse. There could be endless opportunities to distill and communicate this type of information.Frank Cooper 26:22  Yeah, well, that's such a difficult question. Because, you know, I'm always trying to figure out where things are moving next, and in time it in a way where it can have an impact because I've also learned the hard way, that being too early is the same as being too late. The impact really won't hit you, or abroad, enough people, set of people in the way that you want. And so, when I look at timing and change, I think we have an opportunity in a long-form video, you know, I think we could do things like a documentary film that will be really interesting and helpful, and not just kind of the shilling of the brand or the company. But this area of NFTs and the metaverse is we're at the height of the hype cycle right now. So, we got to get through that. And no one knows exactly how it's going to take shape. But there's a few things we do know. We do know that people want to have the experience of being in an immersive environment. Video games have been doing it for a long time now. And we saw that ship years ago and video games. I don't remember earlier in the video games used to give different tools and weapons and other things that people could use within the game as you started to level up. They eliminated that for variety reasons, including they thought it was unfair terms of pure gameplay, but they had shifted from that to accessories. And so, once you shift to the accessories in the virtual world like a video game, you've entered the metaverse in a way. It's not as immersive as a 3d environment necessarily, but you're entering the metaverse because now you have these accessories. And so, imagine if you're in a virtual world, and these virtual worlds are connected, and you have some limited-edition Nike shoes, or you have some other crypto collectible, that to me is the direction is going, what we can do is that there's some form of exchange that has to happen in these environments. And we can be part of that exchange number one, but then when you look at something like Decentraland, where people could buy a plot of virtual land and build what they want on it, and people can invest and people can start to save suddenly in that virtual world this idea of financial services, investing, asset allocation becomes really interesting. And I think we have an opportunity to step in there in a way that's still authentic, but it also can deliver real value to people who are experiencing those virtual environments. So, I'm very excited about the metaverse, I'm excited about NFTs within the metaverse in particular, in the role that financial services can play.Dan Runcie 28:52  Yeah, I agree. It's been fascinating to see how much has changed in the past six months, you know, year plus at this point. But it's also been interesting to see more and more celebrities and especially folks in hip hop that are pushing it themselves or are changing their social avatars to whether it's board apes or some other assets that they have. So, it's really great to see those folks be ahead of the curve as well on a thing like this. Because as we both know, if you're able to have them to set the direction and get their audience bought in, there could be a lot of movement, not just with, you know, who gets bought in but who gets bought in early that could eventually set the tone for what the landscape looks like, looks like as it matures.Frank Cooper 29:37  Yeah. And you know, I've always been, I'm happy to see that black artists in particular, but hip hop artists in general, are now are getting credit for leading being one of the leaders within technology. I think it's always happened when ringtones are out, they were leaders of it. When mobile phones and mobile communications were out there were leaders of that. When Twitter launched Black Twitter was the hottest thing on the platform. But it was largely unrecognized. Now it's being recognized. And I'm also sensing a slight mindset shift among some of these artists. So, you take that piece of it, but also this notion that I can be a pure consumer. And it's been or I can build wealth. And you know, we saw seeds of that even in Jay-Z’s 444 album, but even when I see someone like Rick Ross come off the plane to say: Hey, I just did a set for someone I got X amount of check, am I going to go and buy another gold chain? I'm going to invest in this. It is a mindset shift in terms of what success looks like, and all that wealth plays within it. And so, with the convergence of those two things, I think that we're entering a space that none of us know exactly how it's going to play out, but a space where new opportunities are going to come both for artists, but also for entrepreneurs. And just for people who have traditionally been excluded, you know, from the benefits of investing and saving and wealth in general.Dan Runcie 30:57  What is your involvement in this space look like? Have you gotten deep into it with yourself, whether it's your own wallets or things that you've been tapping into?Frank Cooper 31:05  No, I'm more, I'm sidelined right now for variety reasons. It's tricky. You know, since I've been at BlackRock, there are a lot more restrictions on what I can do. But the thing I've been paying the closest attention to would be crypto assets, in particular, NFTs years ago. And I regret it someone told me early on, you know: Hey, yo, dip into Bitcoin. And I intended to do it, because I was like, you know, who knows where it's going to go, but I'll learn. So, I missed that opportunity, and I feel like this thing is moving so quickly, I could easily miss this opportunity. Also, personally, unless I start getting a ball, because I don't think you can, is moving so quickly. I don't think you can really understand it in a deep way unless you participate in it, you know, you can study it, you can see it, but you kind of participate in it. So, I'm trying to get there. I'm not fully there.Dan Runcie 31:52  Yeah. It's a lot. I mean, anyone that considers themselves an expert in Web 3.0 or anything like this, I always push back because the space is growing so fast. And at the broadest extent, we're all learners in this space. We're all just gaining knowledge by day. And if we learn something interesting, we'll share it with others but there are no experts in this everyone is just leveling up. And I do think that these things take time. Even as someone that studies this space for a living related to the things I do, it's still a lot, and every week, you'll see something else being like: Oh, what's that, but like anything else, you have to filter it down. And you have to prioritize where that lines up with everything else that's there. Frank Cooper 32:31  And what are your go-to sources to keep learning and keep deepening understanding of Web 3.0 and NFTs, and the metaverse?Dan Runcie 32:38  Yeah, there's a few spots that I've gone through like there's this newsletter that I recently started checking out that has been helpful on that front, it's more of a regular digest to some of the latest things that are going on. There are some other folks in music and more broadly, and media that I've been following that have either bought things or will you know, add me to some of these telegrams or discord groups that are happening. So much of it has happened a bit informally. But you'll see these drops happen once in a while. And it's always this thing of: Okay, you want to support this person because you're cool, then and then you know, you can get the NFT that has access to that, but then you never know where it could go, right? So, there's that. And then on the other side of it, too, just looking through the headlines of some of the things that are happening, I feel like now it's almost a given just to the sources that I'm checking that it'll be so and so in many cases, a hip hop artist that's like: Oh, they just did a NFT deal with this, or they just did that or even the deal that Snoop Dogg had done and how he was able to sell last I checked, you know, it was over $44 million worth of a NFT that had this exclusive access to a lot of his what he would normally have as a VIP thing. It was part of this album that he has now that he has a death row catalog. So, all these things have been kind of like, you know, little nuggets of information that just add and build to it. So, it's definitely been a pretty wide range of things. But that's I feel like I've been able to at least try to keep up with these things.Frank Cooper 34:05  I love it. I love it. I have to look up some of those, you know, and one of my concerns around it is this going to be strange coming from someone who lives in marketing is that brands will mess this all up, you know, because you know brands are now aware of how fast it's growing, how powerful it is, how much people want to engage, you know, with NFT's and crypto and the metaverse. I think some of these brands are jumping into early, they will be better off learning and taking smaller steps and not big leaps on this one in my opinion. Dan Runcie 34:35  That brand piece is interesting. I feel like you had said recently that you feel like brands in general just need to be more like creators. And I think if you have that type of mentality, then maybe that can help address some of these ways that you could go into an area and it may not necessarily be the best but if you have that open perspective, it'll turn out better.Frank Cooper 34:54  100%. Because the brands can play across a wide range, right? Some brands will come in and say I will be an observer; I will just observe things and share that with people. A little bit of value in that some many, many brands are still in the sponsor layer, like, you know, we will support something, and we hope we get a halo effect by just being a supporter of it. There are literally designs and billboards, you know, at games and things like that. Other brands are curators, they'll say: Hey, we'll weed out the stuff for you. And you can see that we're kind of in the game because our taste level will be evident because we are giving you the best in certain areas. But the brands I think that people will love and respect, and that feel like they're part of the community are these creative brands. They actually create things that add value to people's lives. And so, when I was very started to see it, what I love to see more of is brands come in, and they actually design experiences that help people, you know, if you're a sponsor of the NFL, for example, well, how can you make the fan experience better by creating some something like that? Instead of creating a commercial, can you create a film? You know, can you create some integration into a video game that actually will be beneficial to the players within that game? Creator brands are the ones that add that value, but to be a great creator, you also have to be a member of that community, you can't just parachute in from the outside to say, like, I understand all the nuances that are happening within this community, you have to be a member of it. You have to be active and understand the values and the rituals and the symbols and the stories and the history of that community in order for you to really add value and to be a true creator within it.Dan Runcie 36:35  So, brands can't just hop on Twitter and say: Oh, I'm pushing P that's what you’re saying.Frank Cooper 36:41  You know, somebody's going to do that, though. You know, someone's going to do it.Dan Runcie 36:45  They already have.Frank Cooper 36:47  It's terrible, though. But you know, that’s what happens, unfortunately, with too many brands. And the great thing, in my opinion, is that consumers are so smart now. It's like, they see exactly what it is, you will get no credit for you will be maligned. And so, again, I think those brands who understand what it takes to be a creator, jump into it. If you're not ready for that, you can take a step back and be a curator and say, I'm looking at the best of the best, but even then, you still need to be steeped in the culture steeped in the communities that are driving.Dan Runcie 37:18  Right. And I think at the end of the day, what happens is like when you have the people that work at those companies that actually represent that culture, that's how you have more of this. If you have the outsiders trying to embed themselves in whether it's a brand or not, there's going to be a disconnect. And I feel like that actually links back to something that you've written about recently, you had a really thoughtful Harvard business review essay, and you talked about black employees at these workplaces in a lot of these types of roles and wanting to feel safe, wanting to feel seen and wanting to feel supported. And one, I mean, I can relate to that 100%, having worked in many of these roles, and I think I appreciated your writing that given the leadership roles in place that you've been in your careers, but I'm curious, how do you feel, you know, from your perspective, as that relates to you and your experience, even now, at the CMO level roles and the C suite roles that you've had for major companies?Frank Cooper 38:18  Yeah, you know, it's really interesting to me that article, I couldn't easily have been one of the interviewees because of the experiences that they expressed in the article, not feeling safe to fully express yourself, you know, so that kind of psychological safety, you know, not being seen in the fullness of who you are, you know, and the potential that you have, and not being supported, and supported. I mean, given all the elements that can make you successful, but also being challenged to stretch into new roles. I've experienced all that. And all on the way I also had to deal with, and I think many black and brown executives and women have to deal with this. It's a perception challenge, right? Which is, can the person sitting across from who is in some way responsible for your growth within the company, see your full potential, and it's not like there's this kind of demonic attitude that they have toward you. But their subconscious may not allow them to see the goal is to see you, as a CEO, see you as a CMO. And so, you're always overcoming that perception challenge. But I've been fortunate in that in there's a long list of people that have helped me achieve despite that, there have been people who saw in me, that potential people have given me that opportunity to stretch. And the one person who's going to really be in my life, my career for most of my life is Clarence Avant. And Clarence Avant, they, you know, they did the Netflix film on Clarence, The Black Godfather, but early on, you know, Clarence started telling me the stories of what he did, why he did it, how he approached it. And it was a sense of kind of fearlessness that he had, in the sense of, you know, that if you fail is nothing more than we're learning experience, take that and use it to your benefit, helping to communicate. So how do you actually know that someone may not see the full potential in you? How do you actually get them to overcome that? Maybe if you can solve their problems, you know, figure out what their problem is and solve it, it builds confidence, one, but also makes you closer to them. And proximity is really important in order to build these kinds of relationships where people want to help pull you up. And so, he was really central to it. But they have been a long list of people every step of the way that have been helpful to me, because they saw potential in me, and were able to overcome it. I think to do it on a systemic level, we have to rethink how we train managers, and managers are trained, you know, to be technically proficient, they're trained to lead in a way that you'll find your high potential employees, etc. But what we're talking about here is really unlocking potential in all people and to unlock potential and people that may not look like you require a different set of skills. You know, do you have a skill of humble inquiry? Do you don't ask questions in a way that actually motivates people to connect with you? You know, can you practice intense listening? You know, are you listening in a way where you really understand what that person is saying, even though the language may be different than maybe shrouded in euphemisms? That's the training that needs to happen with managers to really break through this and unlock the potential in people that may not look like though. And so, I'm optimistic, but we have a long way to go.Dan Runcie 41:26  That's real, the way that things are communicated makes such a big difference. And you bring it up Clarence Avant, I've never met him personally. But even just watching through that documentary, you can just see that vibe of how he was and how he related. There wasn't this like, awe, the factor that he had going into rooms. It was like: Yeah, you know, I talked to Bill Clinton, and I just let him know how it was like, there was no pause in any of that. And you just saw that carry through and through.Frank Cooper 41:53  You know, he told me, he said: Hey, Frank, look, I'm from North Carolina. And he says he's from Greensboro base from climates. And let's go ahead, it's like, it's adjacent to Greensboro. And he said: I didn't know what was going on. He said, but early in my career, Joe Glaser told me, you know, I want you to go in, and I want you to have this conversation with this head of the music label, and you're going to manage this artist, and he's like, you know, I don't know how to do this. You know, Joe says something to be said that stuck with them for the rest of his life. He said, let me just say this: Every person that you're talking to, they wake up in the morning, they shower, brush their teeth, put up put on their pants, or shoes, whatever. They're just like you, there's nothing special about them beyond the fact that they're another human being, and just relate to them in that way. And you're going to be fine. And that's how he approaches it. So, he's not, it's fascinating, he's not in awe. But he's also not looking down upon anyone. It's like, I'm looking at you eye to eye, let's figure out how we connect with you about how we can make something happen. It's a remarkable skill. And I believe that's what's carried up through all these years.Dan Runcie 42:57  Yeah, I would agree with that, for sure. And we're getting to the tail end here. And I'm sure that as you mentioned, you've had a lot of people that have, you know, seen things in you that were able to help get you to the place you're into your career. Clarence Avant, you know, is one of those folks that gave you great advice. What's another piece of advice that you've gotten in your career that really stuck with you that still resonates today?Frank Cooper 43:17  Well, the best, the best piece of advice I had was early in my career, and I was just thinking as a second-year law school student, and I was with a litigation partner. And what he told me was that I told him, I want to do practice law and teach law for all these reasons. And he said: Okay, fine, fine, fine, whatever. But let me just say one thing that after practicing for 20 years, I've been in public practice and private practice, and I've seen a lot of people who are successful, and those who have not succeeded. And I'll tell you, the one thing that you have to remember is that if you can connect your personal interests with your professional interests, the thing that energizes you in life, you know, that gives you a sense of fulfillment and connect that with your personal interest, you will not only do well, you'll actually have this deep sense of fulfillment. He said: If you don't do it, I think you'll still be successful, superficially, but you'll watch your personal interest go to the wayside. And so that actually sent me on this path of what we now call purpose of this path of discovering life. So, what am I good at? What do I love to do? And what am I good at? And how can I contribute to something bigger than myself? And that was, it was a deep introspective process, but I came out of it, having a sense of what I love to do, what I'm good at, how it contributes to the world, and I've applied it's kind of been my compass, every place that I've been, and it's what impart has allowed me to move from industry to industry at a very high level, you know, from entertainment to technology to consumer goods and financial services. That sense of purpose has stuck with me the entire way.Dan Runcie 44:49  That's real. That's real. And that's a good note to close on with this. I mean, normally my last question is your anything you want to plug and let the Trapital audience know about, but I think you did it right there. Oh, it's perfect. Well, Frank, no, this was a pleasure. I really appreciate you coming on. And I feel like we'll have to may have to check it again with you at some point, we'll see what the next few Super Bowl lineups look like. And then we could do a postgame after that.Frank Cooper 45:15  Let's do it every year. I'd love to do it.Dan Runcie 45:18  That'd be great. Okay, awesome.Frank Cooper 45:19Thanks, man. Dan Runcie 45:21  Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show.Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week

It’s no secret that touring is the lifeblood of most modern-day musical artists. But while most fans only see the finished product — a head-bobbing performance at Coachella or a sold-out nightclub — few get a glimpse into the behind-the-scenes work being done by professionals like Kevin Shivers, a partner in WME’s music division. Let this interview with Kevin be your inside look at what goes into the live performances that fuel the entire music industry.Kevin has been with WME since 2008 after a stint in Hollywood. While with WME, he’s worked with stars such as Tyler The Creator, Summer Walker, Kid Cudi, and plenty more on their touring strategies. Of course, Kevin’s world — much like every other industry — was dealt a massive blow during the past two years. But with live shows seemingly back (knock on wood), Kevin has his eyes toward the future.And the future is an even better fan experience, says Kevin. NFTs, virtual concerts, removing the frictions of going to a real-life show — these are all ongoing evolutions that will better connect superfans with their favorite artists. We covered this near-term future in our interview, plus a whole lot more.Episode Highlights[2:15] How Kevin Broke Into The Entertainment Business [4:00] How Has the Music Business Changed In The Past Two Years? [5:25] The Go-Forward Plan For 2022[6:40] What Spurred Tyler The Creator’s Big 2021[9:35] What Data Goes Into Entering New Touring Markets [13:10] Festival Strategies With Artists[14:56] How Has Streaming Changed Touring Trajectory[17:10] The Biggest Touring Mistake[18:30] Social Media’s Influence On Touring[19:30] Touring Difference Between Hip Hop And R&B[21:02] How Kevin Measure Success For Himself [23:00] Why Kevin Is So Vested In Mentorship[25:19] Diversity & Inclusion Initiatives Within The Music Industry [28:46] The Impact Web 3.0 Will Have On The Music Industry[31:20] Will Virtual Concerts Replace Live Shows?[32:30] Five-Year Predictions For Music Touring[34:43] How Many Days Will Kevin Spend At Shows In 2022?[35:40] How Do You Find The Next Musical Star?Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Kevin Shivers, Instagram: @bellmeadallstar  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands_____Transcription: The Future Of Live Music with Kevin Shivers, Partner at WMEKevin Shivers 00:00You gotta ask yourself after arenas, then what? Where are you going after that? I mean, like, you know, you might already have that plan in your head, but like these careers are, it's a marathon, not a sprint.Dan Runcie 00:18Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast! I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Kevin Shivers. He's a partner at WME, and he represents some of the biggest artists in the game like Tyler, the Creator, Summer Walker, and more. We talked about how he was able to maximize the big year that Tyler had last year. I feel like Tyler headlined so many music festivals, and had so many appearances. Kevin talks about what it took to make that happen, especially given how turbulent things were with COVID, and all of the restrictions and variants that came through and how he was able to still make it happen. We talk more broadly about music festivals in the strategy that Kevin has for making sure his clients can get certain buildings on the roster. We also talked about Summer Walker and how he was able to do the same for her. Then, we talked more broadly about what it's like as a black executive, especially in representing artists. There are not too many people at agents that are at Kevin's level that look like Kevin, so we talked about that. Some of the advocacy work and mentoring and giving back that he's done and he's prioritized in his career, and so much more. It was great to have Shivers on here. I hope you enjoy this. Here's my chat with Kevin Shivers. All right, today, we got one of the most powerful agents in the game. Kevin Shivers partner at WME. Welcome to the pod, feels like we're long overdue.Kevin Shivers 01:49Thanks for having me, Dan. It's a pleasure. Dan Runcie 01:51Yeah, it's funny because I feel like this time of the year, I always see the festival posters come up for all of the music festivals. And I'm sure you've seen the one where they replace the names of the festivals with the agencies that they're all part of. And whenever I see the WME, I'm like: Man, Kevin was on his game this year. Kevin Shivers 02:10It's definitely not all me, man. There are so many great agents at work here. Happy to be a part of this team. Dan Runcie 02:15So you've been in the game for a while now. But let's take a step back. Because I know you've been working at the agency for some time. But what was it that first attracted you to the business?Kevin Shivers 02:27I had to say it was my mother. When I was a kid growing up, my mother would drag my brother out of movies every weekend. And that's the first time in my head where I got: Wait, I would love to work in entertainment because I love the movie so much. My mother loves movies so much. Even during COVID, she was still going to the movies. And that's like the really, my first interest into the business. When I graduated from high school, I went to college at University of Texas. I majored in film with the plan of moving out to LA and being a producer. And I did move out to Los Angeles, I started interning at The Weinstein Company at the time. And then I went on to this Company Cost of Beanie films, they had a deal at Weinstein. And from there, I kind of entered into the film business, and I got my first taste into: This is not for me, this is not what I want to do in my life. Partly because I was really bad at my job, like I tried, but I didn't want to read 30 scripts a week. This is not what I wanted to do. And then I pivoted, I left there. And I went to this place called Cats Media Group, which is like they did TV sales. And I knew that, that wasn't long term. And I went there to stay in Los Angeles, and to figure it out. And from there, I figured out I wanted to be an agent and WME. I had some experience in music and in Austin like going to shows. I knew a promoter, this guy Charles Adler, Ramsay Three. And at the time, it was the William Morris Agency. And that's my first interest into entertainment. Dan Runcie 03:56Nice. And I feel like the past year and a half, almost two years now. It's probably been unlike any other time period since you've been in this. What's that been like for you?Kevin Shivers 04:05You mean like COVID, and the ways impacted shows? It's been wild, right? Like if I go back to 2020, there was so much going on in the picture of even the world and in all of our lives. You had George Floyd, you had Trump and you had COVID and uncertainty. So 2020, being an agent, it was moving shows from the beginning of the year to the end of the year. That doesn't work for all the social things that are going on in the world to 2021. The first six months were kind of the same of 2020, and the first light in the tunnel I think was Rolling Loud, like Rolling Loud played, and then Lollapalooza was maybe a week or two later. And then you start seeing Austin City Limits and Outside Lands playing off in some tours. And then we started; it started to make sense, then Omicron came along, and we're like back for a period of time back at square one. But it seems like 2022 is gonna bring a lot of joy, you know. Shows are planned, Superbowl is happening in a few days, Pro Sports are going along. So it seems a lot of positivity.Dan Runcie 05:10What do you think will be different for 2022 and 2023 thereafter? Because I feel like it'll be this gradual shift where eventually things will start to feel like the touring schedule is maybe back to somewhat of what it was before COVID. But how long do you think that will really be like? What do you think will be the first year that we can look back at and say: Okay, this is the first year that doesn't feel like it was impacted in any way?Kevin Shivers 05:36I think there's some hope in 2022. If we just changed the way that we’re thinking that this is the new world. Things might pop up, the virus might flare back up and flare back down. But let's try to figure out how to move forward. I think I'm starting to see that people are out and about in shows, they are playing sports, you know. The NFL season went through the whole season, they had ups and downs. And I think that like we're starting to see some positivity, lots of hope for 23. Hopefully 23, we get back to some sort of, or we get to some sort of a new normal, where we're living in this new world, and we're just going with the punches.Dan Runcie 06:12I hear that. So I think the good thing for you though is that even, until we got to that point, you've been moving a lot. And I know that Tyler the Creator is one of your bigger clients and 2021 was a big year for him. Headlined a bunch of festivals, dropped his album. What was it like making sure that everything could line up and that you could have everything set for him despite everything else that was going on with the touring business?Kevin Shivers 06:38First of all, I want to say Tyler's a star and a one of a kind of talent, and he knows exactly what he wants. I'm lucky to be a part of his team, and he has an excellent team around them. It starts with the managers Chris and Kelly Clancy, who are amazing people. The business manager, Joe Colone, amazing lawyer, my partner James Ruby, who does International Day watch after her at the agency and all the other people that touchTyler. But 21 was a great year; we got the headline target the headlines for festivals, but it was also we had some goals from, it was also challenging. First thing is the record comes, the record is amazing and it's also finding a window when we can go on sale when COVID is not surging, and I think that the team and I,we all got lucky because we found a window.We knew Tyler was going to headline Lollapalooza and the goal was after you get all the media, the media hype coming from Lolla. We knew he was going to bring an amazing show; that Monday after Lolla, finding that window where we can go on sale and luckily for us, no COVID spikes out Lolla, nothing crazy. And there's no COVID spikes in the world. So that was the first thing, right? I think the second thing when we thought about touring, is trying to find the markets for him to play Tyler, somebody that wants to push the envelopes. And we ended up putting up 35 arenas, breaking in some new markets. I saw last night a show in San Diego. He was like: I could have done 50 shows. I mean, granted, it was nice to have, you know, the tour. And I was like: Okay, we'll see how you feel at, like, night 33 or something. But we were able to break into new markets. Columbus, Vegas, El Paso, Pittsburgh, to name a few. I think the third thing is that Tyler really, really wanted to give the fans the ultimate experience. This is the lineup: Teezo Touchdown, Vince Staples, Kal Uchis. And I think the last thing is, you know, making sure that we hit the sweet spot in pricing. So we, you know, give the fans a place where they can feel happy, a place where they can buy tickets, but also maximizing the gross, keeping ticket sales in the gross. And this was a joint effort with the managers, Chris and Kelly, Michelle Bernstein, who's an excellent marketing ticketing person and AG team led by Cody over there.Dan Runcie 08:56Talk to me a bit more about the new markets and picking those.You mentioned in Pittsburgh, you mentioned El Paso. What are the data that insights are the field that you look for when you're like: Hey, this is somewhere that we want to consider going to that we haven't gone before. And if we do it, is this the type of venue that we should go in this market as opposed to somewhere like LA or New York where he's already proved himself? Kevin Shivers 09:20Well, I think there's a few things, so one is whenever Tyler, any of my clients, I'm always trying to figure out, I want them to play as many places that they can. Just reach all the fans and maximize the opportunity we're on the road because if it's a Tyler recording or whoever it is, or Cody, you're not gonna get to see them every single year. That is a unique experience. But to answer your direct question, it's one looking at the data if it's from Spotify, or our past sales. Two is looking at the markets and seeing if there's a building or venue that makes sense like Columbus. We know that's a place, there's a college town where Tyler's played there before, played there, sold out. I think a smaller room on the onsale, knew there was demand, didn't realize, I mean, the Columbus sales are insane. But this didn't realize like: Wow, that's, I mean that is really like that's a smaller market that has turned into a market, right? I think it's looking at our diverse lineup of talent on the bill, you know, going to a place like El Paso and looking at: Oh, there's probably going to be some Kali fans, and Vince fans and Teezo fans, right? That's a good place. And that's also a place that doesn't get a lot of entertainment. So like, and that ended up being like a home run. So it's like, kind of looking at the whole picture of what you got and talking to a lot of people that are smarter than you in kind of coming up with a plan. And also just working with good people that have a point of view.Dan Runcie 10:47What are the trade-offs that you have to make for those kinds of decisions? Because I imagine that there's the ones that do cross the threshold to be like: Okay, let's make this happen. But you know, kind of like you were saying before, it's tough to try to do 50 shows in a specific short amount of run or whatever it may be. What are some of those considerations you may have to make in terms of the markets that you can't pick? Or the ones you know, that you may not be able to put in this time, right?Kevin Shivers 11:11I think there are a few things. One, it's like really talking to your clients and letting them know, we might, we're going to try to go in this market. This possibility, it might not go the way that we want, but we have to, to me if you're not trying if you're not putting risk on the line, and what are we doing, right? It's like, I'm actually somebody who's okay with failing, right? And I’m not saying that we fail or anything, but I'm okay with doing that risk for the bigger reward. So it's like really, really like getting in there and talking to them about, you know, the strategy, right? And like, the goal, I think the goal should be like, when you go out every two, three years is gaining new fans, gaining that new network.Dan Runcie 11:50Right, especially now. I feel like for someone like him, it's probably been interesting. I know, you've been with him to see the rise and just to see how the fan base has continued to evolve over time. So I imagine he probably even sees things where he's like: Okay, these are the Tyler fans that ,you know, have been with me since the Globin days. If I go to this city versus, you know, you go to this other city. They may not have discovered me as much until Flower Boy or something like that. I'm sure he does. Yeah, it's fascinating. And I think with him too, if we talk a bit more about the festival side of things, he obviously was a headliner, as you mentioned, his Lollapalooza show was broadcasted. I didn't go to the show, but I was able to see it through Hulu, because they had it coming through there. When you're trying to have someone like him, obviously, you have many different artists and they have different levels that they may want to perform at. And ideally, you want to have everyone maximizing and performing at the highest level or being like the highest row on that festival poster. But for someone like Tyler, is it going into the year like: Hey, headline or buster; if we can't be a headliner for this festival, we're not going to do it. Or does it depend on who some of the others are? What are those conversations like? Kevin Shivers 13:07I think when you start a campaign with any artist, it's just like sitting down with the team and figuring out what the goals are, right? And it's all a trajectory and building on the last. I think you want to, the goal is always to build on the last time you were out, to build on the last year, right? And having that conversation. And you know, different artists have different things. Some people want to specifically target these particular festivals, or you know, you're going out in his window, and you could maybe use a festival to route in and out to get the gross-up for the whole tour. It's just like, really just, it's really spending time with the client spending time with the manager to find out, figure out what the goal is in maximizing the opportunities.Dan Runcie 13:49Is it any tougher to do that though? The way that artists can just rise so fast now, especially in the streaming era. Because I know that there's normally the standard, you know, you do your clubs, you can do a, you know, ballrooms or amphitheaters, and then maybe if you get to arenas or stadiums, that's their trajectory. But with people just getting so big, so fast, does that change the dynamic? Or it's like: Okay, how do you still balance what they may have done last time and use that as a reference point versus how quickly they can rise in this era?Kevin Shivers 14:19I mean, look, you have to have a point of view, and you have to have a plan. And you have to have some thoughts, right? And I think that people can really jump up really, really quickly. But we like to use this thing: don't skip steps, right? You know, sometimes if, you know, you can go play in an arena, why not go play multiple nights at a smaller room and build the momentum, build a buzz, meet people on the streets, leaving, not being able to get to the show. So that when you come back around, you still have gas in the tank. I mean, there's no one size fits all plan. It's like, you have to just know who you're working with, spend time and really kind of draw that. Draw that sketch up and map it out and let it listen. A plan is just a, it's just a roadmap. It can be amended along the way. There's no like set in stone thing, but other than like, no knowing where you want to go, knowing what you think, you know, going to be doing the next year, the next five years. That is what's most important.Dan Runcie 15:13That makes sense. And that reminds me of something I heard. I think it was Olivia Rodrigo, who said in some recent interview when he announced her tour. And someone must have asked her something along the lines of: Hey, you had one of the biggest years in pop music this past year, could you have done arenas? And I think she said that same line, you said: I don't want to skip any steps. This is where that is. So I think that's something that definitely rings true. And we're seeing examples of that.Kevin Shivers 15:39Yes. And you gotta ask yourself after arenas, then what? Where are you going after that? I mean, like, you know, you might already have that plan in your head, but like these careers are, it's a marathon, not a sprint.Dan Runcie 15:49So what do you think are some of the mistakes that artists can make? Like, I mean, you don't have to drop any names. You don't got to put anybody on blast. But is there anyone that you think maybe made a touring misstep? Or there's something where you can look back and be like: Ah, if they had done that a little differently, things could have worked out a little bit, you know, whether it's better or worse, or however for them.Kevin Shivers 16:09I think sometimes when people overthink it and end up doing nothing, that's like a bummer for everybody. That's a bummer for the artist. That's a bummer for the fan, that's a bummer for the culture, like, like you're hot, you're popping right now. We really need to see you really, really need to see you show up and pull up on us and see what you have. I think that, that's a mistake, not a mistake, but that's just a bummer for everybody. We want to see, we want to see you do your thing. And I would love it if instead of doing nothing that artists, sometimes people would do something.Dan Runcie 16:39So you think part of it is that there's a hesitancy to try to capture the moment, or sometimes they can be a bit more resolute or hesitant to do things when there is an opportunity to go back out there.Kevin Shivers 16:51Or they just don't know, or they just are trying to get it perfect. And like, you know, you're going to we're all going to make mistakes, there's going to be ups and downs. I think sometimes you just got to go play, you know, you got to give the fans what they want.Dan Runcie 17:04Do you think any of this has become any more challenging in the social media era? Because one thing that I've heard both on the talent side is that artists are even more so particular about how everything looks from a live perspective, because that shot that goes on Instagram or that shot that goes on Tik Tok, that influences ticket sales, especially from, you know, whether it's the first show or whatever it is. Do you feel like artists are feeling like they need to have things more perfect even though deep down, you know, that it shouldn't be that way?Kevin Shivers 17:33I mean, it's got to be really, really tough because the cameras are always on somebody always, you know, whether you like it or not, is documenting things that you do. So I think that I couldn't even imagine how much pressure that is and how tough that has to be. You know that social media can be good. And there can be some other sides where you're like: Wow, this is tough.Dan Runcie 17:52Yeah, I know, we've talked a lot about Tyler and about hip hop overall. But I know another one of the major artists you represent is Summer Walker. And you know, she had a big year, last year as well. And I wanted the differences whether you're planning a tour for, or you're planning live events, in general, for R&B artists, as opposed to someone in hip hop.Kevin Shivers 18:14I don't think there's really many differences, I just think you have to just, it goes back to the same. There’s no any artist planning and really just get, you know, in figuring out what the goals that they have and how you can best service them, right? I don't really think there's a different strategy or a different lane. I think if you love Summer Walker, you love Summer Walker, you're gonna go out and see it, right? And she has, she has an incredible fan base.Dan Runcie 18:40Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. Because one of the things I was wondering with someone like her.Knowing how passionate her fan base is, I was wondering if there was a connection of like: Oh, you know, the streams may show this and the data may show this, but because of how R&B fans are, there may be a bit more likelihood that that could translate to ticket sales or purchases as opposed to other genres.Kevin Shivers 19:02You know, I think the fans are going to come out that they love somebody and Summer respects our fans. People like Summer Walker followers, or they just, they love her. I think they're just going to come out and show up and see her play.Dan Runcie 19:14Now. That's real, that makes sense. So for you, I mean, I know, you got a full roster, and you're always making sure that you can maximize them to the best of their abilities. So how do you measure success for yourself as a partner and as someone that's representing them on their behalf? Kevin Shivers 19:30The answer is really simple: Helping others, right? I got into this business because I wanted to help artists grow. And it's like, it starts with the clients like you start thinking about, about people that I work with, like: What can I do to help them? What can I do to help them grow or give them everything that they need? Are we, you know, from last year to this year? Are we showing up every day to help them get to that next level? That's the first thing. I think also the way I measure success. It's like the same thing with helping others. Like it starts for me every day when my assistant Ebony, I think she's gonna be a great executive one day, but am I showing up for her? Do I slow down enough to answer her questions? Do I mentor her? Do I spend time with her? Because like, that's important to me. We have many, many amazing young agents that work here. Am I showing up enough to help them sign up clients? Am I giving them what they need? I think you know, measuring success. Is everybody around you doing well? Are you doing what's good for the organization? I co-run hip hop with Zach, Isaac, Caroline and James Rubby. And Caroline's always saying we got to take care of youngs, you know, it's Justin neighbor's getting what he needs? Is Sarah and Ronnie getting what they need? And then I think it's just, it's really about creating that culture, creating a universe, that the people you will arise into the next level of being selfless. And then also from a DNI perspective of like: What diverse people can we grow? Can we hire? Are we retaining them? These are all the ways that I measure success. I try not to look at what other people are doing. Because I mean, it doesn't really matter. I want to make sure that the organization and the people around me are set up for success.Dan Runcie 21:14I hear that. And I think a lot of the themes you mentioned there align with mentorship, and whether it's being a mentor or support for the artists that are looking to you for guidance, your co-workers and your colleagues. Can you talk a little bit more about why that's so important to you? Because even in reading and hearing other interviews, I know you've been active on that front, making sure that you can use your platform and where you are to pass the torch and help others along the way.Kevin Shivers 21:40I think mentorship is one of these things like, if we're not mentoring, then what are we doing? Why are we even showing up? You have to always be trying to look out for other people. I've had people that looked out for me and my career, people that still look out for me. And I think that is one of the key things. One of the reasons that makes me want to get up every day and come into the office is, like, helping others. I think that's one of the reasons why we're put on this earth to help people. A non-negotiable thing is mentorship. I mean, the crazy fact about, I'll go do an interview, or I'll do a panel and everybody that writes to me on IG or LinkedIn, I write everybody back, everybody. I mean, I probably send more people to the HR department here for jobs than anybody. Because I just want everybody back. I think that's important, because I was once the young kid who wanted to figure this out. And like I didn't know, I had no clue and people helped me. So I think that's a very important aspect of the job.Dan Runcie 22:35100%. And even on a personal level, I remember the first time you reached out to me, Hey, love what you're doing. Hey, how can I help? And you're just like: Oh, who do you want to interview? Oh, I was listening to them yesterday, boom, let's get this done. So even on a personal level, I need you out. You're looking out for me, man. I appreciate that. Kevin Shivers 22:52Yeah, I mean, well, you're doing it. I listen to your podcast every week. I think it's amazing. I think what you're doing for the culture is great. And I just wanted to get to know you and just to help where I can and, and that's just, that's what I think is important.Dan Runcie 23:05Definitely, definitely. And one of the things that you had put out, because a couple years back, but it really stuck out to me was this was right after George Floyd's murder and the music industry had the show must be paused response. And you had written these guest posts on Pollstar and you were talking about how this industry just needs to do better by its black execs specifically on the recruiting front. And I know you were just talking about how, you know, you're always pushing things forward to HR. And I'm sure this must be really personal for you as well, you are one of the few folks that looks like you in the position that you have in this whole industry. So I'd love to hear how you feel like the industry has responded since everything had happened after George Floyd's murder and the response to where we are now in 2022.Kevin Shivers 23:57You know, in response to your comment about I wanted a person who looks like me in the industry. I always say to everybody, I'm amazing, but I'm not that amazing. There's, there should be more people that look like me doing what I do and and you know, partners in hire, right? And I think we still have a lot of work to do. There's good news though. There's positive conversation around DNI, people are aware, people are aware that there needs to be more black people and more diverse people need to have more opportunities. I still think that we need to keep pushing the envelope, we still have a lot more to do in terms of hiring and creating opportunities for black people. The organization's know they have to do better, but they have to buck the old status quo. They have to go outside of the norm. And today to some people, it might be like: Oh, we're taking a risk. No, DNI has to be inside of your lifeline, inside of your blood, inside of your everyday practices. It's not something that you can just talk about once a quarter, you gotta live it, you got to be in it every day. And I believe that the black people need to be promoted, they need to be elevated. They need to be given the same opportunities and shots. When we were interviewing for jobs, I think in any, in any industry, not just entertainment, you need to be interviewing black people, people of color, LGBTQ, there just needs to be more opportunity. We need more Sylvia Rhone's, more Ethiopia's, more tons Jay-Z and Def Jam. We need more leaders, more partners. I mean, we have to just keep our foot on the gas, keep pushing the envelope because this, we're not there yet. But we're going in the right direction. And we need to keep the momentum.Dan Runcie 25:30Right. And I think even an example of that, the folks you just mentioned, I think a lot of folks in this industry are all on a first name basis. And as incredible as all those folks are, how do we get to the point where they're not on a first name basis, because they aren't just the few black execs in there. I mean, it's definitely going to continue to take time. And I think whether it's conversations like this, or the efforts you're doing will help. But I'm hopeful that it can get there eventually. Kevin Shivers 25:55I'm hopeful, too. I think we got to stay targeted and focus. But also at the same time, remember, like, this just didn't happen overnight, right? It's not going to change overnight. But we have to like, we have to keep, we have to stay on this because it can change and it needs to be better.Dan Runcie 26:11Definitely. So let's switch gears a bit. Let's talk a little bit about the future, specifically with regards to touring and technology and what things will look like in, the potential with Web 3.0 and the metaverse. Because now you have agencies that are specifically I'm sure WME likely also has a division where they focus specifically on digital environments, or getting artists lined up on that perspective. How do you look at that? Specifically, with the artists you have on your roster, what the potentials are for them in these digital worlds.Kevin Shivers 26:50I think Web 3.0 is just it's massive, huge, huge opportunity. You know, if you think about the evolution started in virtual, went over to Fortnite, but I just think it brings control back to the artists in a way. Artists had an act like this the whole time, these music artists, they've had fan clubs, they've had social media, but what Web 3.0 does, it gives more control to them. It's gonna give them more power, but like, it kind of cuts out the middleman and I think you know, things are gonna change in the next six months, next five years, it's gonna be an exciting world. If you look at what Coachella did, by selling the NFT, a lifetime Coachella pass. I mean, I think artists are gonna come up with these things where, you know, if you want to be in the front row of my show, here's the NFT for the chance to buy the front row tickets, or maybe it just goes inside of there. And they figure out what to promote, but I just think like, it's an exciting time. Like, it's the, it's endless. I was just on the phone with A Jones the other day, I love what he's doing with Royal. And I think the deal that he did with Nas and Antony Silay is, like,amazing; that looks like where things are headed. I mean, it's just, you know, like any of these things, it's gonna be ups and downs, right? In the Web 3.0, but I just think the opportunity is endless.Dan Runcie 28:01Yeah, things are early, things are also moving really fast. Six months from now, it's gonna look completely different. And I am excited for the artists that are taking advantage early. I feel like I can already imagine Camp Flog Gnaw Carnival having some type of digital environment or some type of experience in the metaverse.Kevin Shivers 28:21I'm sure it will, I'm sure Lollapalooza and some of these other properties. That's where they're headed. I mean, it's gonna be a really exciting time. I just hope people get off the couch, you still come out to show.Dan Runcie 28:35Is that a concern you have though? Like, do you wonder about that in the future?Kevin Shivers 28:39No, no, I was just joking. I mean, I don't think anything can replace the live experience, just like the Zooms are great, right? But I think when you're in a meeting with somebody, it's 10 times better. And I think a concert is 100 times better. I love, I love going to festivals, I've been to them all over the world. And I love seeing the reactions in real time on people's faces from their favorite artists hidden in the stage. So I don't think anything can replace it. I think it's going to only enhance the experience.Dan Runcie 29:07Agreed. That's what I always go back to. Everything in these experiences are additive and isn't a replacement for anything. And I think it'll probably just force more creativity for every aspect, because you're not just trying to have something be a catch all. So I think I'm interested to see how it'll continue to shape live performances and what that can look like from the, you know, the IRL experience. Yeah. And on that note, do you have any predictions for what you think the next three to five years or so will look like specifically in the lifespace? I mean, pandemic notwithstanding, I mean, obviously, I think we'll continue to see the after effects of that, but any type of, you know, evolutions are any type of future changes that you think will see over time.Kevin Shivers 29:51Yeah, I think 2022 is going to be bigger than we thought. I think that hopefully, I think we're headed to a healthy tour environment. I think there's going to be new players in terms of buyers and festivals. And I think the fan experience will that's going to be the thing of the future. I think everyone has realized they have to zero in on the fan from artists curated weekends and festivals to I think even super service in the fan. Think about this, think about a world where service lets you buy a ticket, has a car that picks you up, dinner reservations, great seats, even find you a babysitter.I think that's where we're going, we're going to this place, we're like: Okay, I can't even be, I'm busy. I didn't want to deal with this, boom, hit a button. And this is where we're going. I think that's exciting. Because you know, getting inside of the mind of the fan, what they really want is going to be the next evolution. Dan Runcie 30:42Yeah, even you mapping that out. If you literally could press one button and solve that, I think you'd also just increase the amount of people that can come through, right? You mentioned the babysitter, the amount of people that have young kids, and it's like, you know, just the thought of them needed like, oh, you know, we got to find someone for this to cover for this night. Like, yeah, if all that can be taken care of.Kevin Shivers 31:00Because I think people love live music, and live music is such a treat. But when you think about the hurdles you have to do, you got to put on some clothes, maybe, you know, show starts at seven, get homework, feed your kids, do this, do that. And if you could just take some of that away from them. That's like, you know, bringing the fan experience to a new level.Dan Runcie 31:21Definitely. So I know that you're always on the go with festivals. And you know, I know you love going into them. But I know it's also for your work as well. If you have to guess, how many shows do you think you'll go to in 2022?Kevin Shivers 31:33I can tell you this. I'd rather answer this way. How many days I plan on hitting a lot of festivals in 2022. So I think I'm going to be, I call it 50 to 60 days watching music, right? That's what I'd say.Dan Runcie 31:48Okay. Yeah. All right. And even that, I mean, that's a lot more than the average person. But I mean, it's just incredible. Because you get to just see all the fine tunes, you get to just see everything. And like you mentioned, this is interesting, you're traveling all across the world for this stuff.Kevin Shivers 32:02Yeah. I mean, that's, that's one of the reasons I love doing what I do. I mean, like, really, I get to go see live music in different parts of the world. I mean, I can't even imagine anything better than that.Dan Runcie 32:12Yeah. So last question. Before we let you go. I know we talked a lot about Tyler. And I know from our conversations, just the uniqueness of you seeing that star power and star potential, even from the first time you connect it. How do you find that next tile? Or how do you find that thing to know? Okay, yeah, this is the one that we need for this next generation. Kevin Shivers 32:34Oh, wow. I think when I'm looking to sign somebody, I'm looking for somebody that has a unique point of view, for somebody that is fearless, and then wants to do the work.Dan Runcie 32:43That makes sense. Hear that man. Hey, before we let you go, man, this was great. I'm glad you could come through and make this happen. But is there anything else you want to plug? Or let the Trapital audience know about it?Kevin Shivers 32:54I think everybody should go out and see some shows this year. I think 2022 is going to be a good year, and then one thing I want to say is to somebody who wants a career in entertainment, I think you should go for it. I think you should move to LA, move to New York, move to Atlanta, move to Nashville. Call, email some people; call, email me. I'll probably write you back pretty soon and just go for your dreams.Dan Runcie 33:15What's your email address?Kevin Shivers 33:17Kshivers@wmeagency.com. It's all good.Dan Runcie 33:23Now appreciate that, man. I welcome man. Thanks for coming through this as a pleasure.Kevin Shivers 33:27I appreciate you Dan.Dan Runcie 33:31If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, posted to your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review and tell people why you liked the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

In this week's show, we have a hip hop legend, Bun B. Best known as one-half of the Southern rap duo UGK, Bun along with Pimp C formed UGK in the late '80s when their former crew, Four Black Ministers, fell apart. Based in Port Arthur, Texas, UGK signed with Jive, and with 1992's Too Hard to Swallow began a series of Southern gangsta rap albums that were successful sellers. In 2005, Bun B carried on solo, and released both the mixtape Legends, and his debut album Trill extending his presence into the 2010s with Trill O.G.: The Epilogue and Return of the Trill, just as a generation of younger MCs looked up to the influential veteran for inspiration. Since then he has continued to experiment and always try what’s new, specially in the technology field, to take full advantage of it. We have an insightful talk on what he’s doing with NFT’s and Web 3.0, and discuss broadly about the metaverse. Tune in to discover how Bun has positioned artists and himself in this incredible space! Episode Highlights[02:50] Bun’s insights about NFT’s and EulerBeats[05:09] Technology advances in the music industry: Vinyl, cassettes, CD’s, mp3[06:36] Bun’s wallet and the genuine aspect of being someone that is producing art and trying to consume it in space vs the cash grab[13:26] How NFT’s shapes the way Bun chooses to release music in the future[17:01] Bun’s outlook about putting himself in the frontlines for all types of things[20:41] Pimp C and testing technology in 1995 with the Ridin’ Dirty album[24:00] Doing more metaverse concerts for more artistic interpretation[29:42] The real advancement of technology with the Nintendo Wii.[35:02] Hip hop artists in Houston[38:49] Hip hop entertainment media becoming more democratized[40:40] Bun’s perception of how to take full advantage of what the metaverse and web 3.0 have to offer[41:28] Bun’s Trill Burger Restaurant[48:20] What Bun wants the “Trapital” audience to know aboutListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Bun B Twitter: @BunBTrillOGInstagram: @bunbTrapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands_______How Bun B Has Positioned Hip Hop Artists in the Metaverse SpaceBun B 00:00All of this different stuff. I do believe that you can do things in a metaverse concert that you maybe can't do in real life, right? Levels of production interaction, people communicating to you in real-time, right? In ways that you probably couldn't do in the middle of a fully organized and fully produced concert.Dan Runcie 00:27Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. This episode is with hip hop legend, Bun B. This man needs no introduction. But everyone on this podcast is going to get one, especially a legend in the game, like Bun. It's wild to think this is coming up on 30 years since Bun and Pimp C dropped their debut album as UGK. And each evolution of his journey Bun has continued to experiment, continue to try what's new. And what he's been doing recently with NFT's and with Web 3.0 is a great example of that. He recently linked up with Cryptopunk Rapper Spottie WiFi. And Bun and I talked all about the releases that they have planned what their strategy has been with NFT's and we talk more broadly about the metaverse. What does that look like for hip-hop artists? How Bun has positioned themselves in this space, and what UGK's approach to NFT's would have looked like. We also talked about what Bun's been doing in the restaurant business, Houston, hip hop artist, who his NFL comparison is, and a whole lot more. It's always great to host the legends on this podcast. And it was an honor for him to join me on this one. Here's my with the Trill OG. All right, we got the Trill OG with us himself, Bun B. Welcome, man. It's great to have you on the pod.Bun B 02:02Likewise, man, thanks for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation today.Dan Runcie 02:06Yeah, man, this is dope, because I feel like there has been so much movement lately going on with NFT's and how artists are making moves. And you've been making a bunch of moves in this space, you recently teamed up with another artist, Spottie WiFi. And it's been dope just to see how you all have thoughtfully planned out what you're doing. And all of these steps the past year where I feel like most people are just gonna wrap their heads around what an NFT actually is and how to do it. So yeah, it will be good to hear. What was your entry point to this? Like, when did you first hear about this stuff, and then something clicked when you're like: Okay, I'm gonna make a move in this space.Bun B 02:50So I got approached last summer. A good friend of mine used to be my video producer advice many years ago, reached out to me and he said: Bun, I know you're a forward thinker. I know you're, you know, relatively open minded guy. Have you heard of NFT's? And I was like, vaguely, but because of the fact that I was I was a little late to crypto, so I wasn't, you know, big on Discord and all of that kind of thing. So I was very unfamiliar, to be honest, seems like well, I have a guy, he's, you know, very fluent. And, you know, he's doing these different kinds of things called EulerBeats, and I was like, what, what is a EulerBeat? And the way it was explained to me, and I'm definitely paraphrasing here, it's like a computer algorithm is put in and it kicked out beats or whatever. So basically, these were beats that were kicked out by because some kind of computer program or algorithm by some scientist named Euler. And so different people were buying these EulerBeats, doing remixes to them and so forth.So one of the guys that owned one reached out to my friend and was like, you know, if you'd like to collaborate, I'd love to see if you would want to rap over one of these beats, you know, so I did something, it was very minimal. It was really only like a hook and a verse and it was called going crazy over crypto. And I just use a lot of different terminology from this, as I did my research, talking about Foundation, and open sea and stuff like that, you know, very, very surface level terminology. And it did fairly well it because the guy that I partnered with was already well known in the space. And so that went well, and I guess the word kind of got out. So then I had another friend reach out to me and he was like: Hey, I have a good friend. He is a crypto punk owner, and he's actually like, the first crypto punk rapper. I'm like: Well, I don't even know what that means. But, you know, let's let's get us all on a call. And that's when I was introduced to Spidey and Spidey explained to me the idea of the crypto punk NFT and him putting like an identity to his and turn it into like this character, which I thought was like really cool, real cutting edge and some next level shit. And being an older artist, you know, I'll be celebrating my 30 year anniversary this month. And so I've watched the music industry changed from vinyl to cassettes, cassettes to CDs, CDs to mp3. So you know and watch the record business go from the traditional model of record stores into these online stores, right? So for me, it's it's vital that I'm prepared to change with the time when this technology advances. And so when I started to find out more and more about not only NFT's but cryptocurrency and this whole idea of Web 3.0 in the metaverse and where everything is going, I was like: Man, I really hope I can find my way into this. And luckily, people who are already in the space reached out to me, so I didn't have to do that much initial heavy lifting, right? These guys kind of carried it for me. But then once they brought this stuff to me, I got very intrigued and I started to do my own research. And now like just watching these different brands and different people being associated with different stuff and seeing how you know, this board API club society is expanding, you know, through all facets of entertainment, man, it's really cool to watch. And it's really fun to be on a certain level a part of everything that's happening, right?Dan Runcie 06:22Yeah, definitely. And I mean, you mentioned it a few of the names there. Obviously, we're talking about crypto punks board, API club. I feel like even outside of music, you must have stepped up your own collection as well with this stuff. What's your, what's your wallet looking like right now?Bun B 06:36It's looking pretty good. You know, I had the full set, Medicard, somebody talked to me about that. I think my first really, really good purchase for me was an In-Betweener from Gianpiero. He's a digital artist and he's also the designer behind Drew, which is Justin Bieber's clothing line. So I was able that was like the first thing I was able to met Tristan Eaton, who was a good friend of mine. He's an amazing artist and muralist. He released some, some art called Gemma. So he gave me an NFT of his, and that allowed me to be able to meet stuff. So it's been really, really cool. Hundreds I bought an atom bomb from the Hundreds for Bobby Hundreds. And I caught it, like, at a really good price. And the ceiling is like two and a half times what it was when I got it. It's just been fun to get my hands on some of this stuff and just watch it grow, you know, but I'm trying to hold on to as much of it as possible, personally. Yeah, I did it for like, you know, quick buys and flips because I'll be honest, I wouldn't, I wouldn't fail to understand the industry enough to know what to buy and when to buy it. Whatever. I'm finding some cool stuff. I have friends that tell me about some cool stuff happening. I go on, I check it out, you know, works for me people that, you know, sometimes I've been lucky enough to get whitelisted other times, I got to get in that thing and met like everybody else, you know, but it's been fun and exciting. You know, especially like I see now B.o.B is now getting into the metaverse, that's going to be a drop coming soon. Really interesting man to watch out for; all these brands are finding their way into the metaverse right now. But yeah, my wallet is, it's okay, you know, it's not crazy, because I'm very reserved about, like, I have crypto that I already have. So I'm just kind of playing with house money, if that makes any sense. Like I don't want to look into you know, dumping a lot of my personal income into it, you know, if I make the right decisions in the right choices and make a couple of bucks cool. And if not, you know, they're not going to cut the lights off over here anytime. So, but, but it's fun, it's fun to have a lot of friends now like Everlast, a recording artist Everlast. I talked to him all the time. And he's been an art collector for almost 30 years now of all different mediums of art, whether it's sculptures or toys, or paintings or what have you. And like he's like, very, very engaged because he just loves art, and he loves to appreciate art. And he has many friends that are artists that are releasing NFT's, and then other things that he sees that are you know, maybe based off of hip hop characters or something culturally that he has an attachment to, and he was just copied something you know, it's relatively, you know, most of these things meant typically around .01 Ether, so it's only a couple of $100 that you really have to invest. Again, like I said, I'm not I'm not sitting around trying to spend crazy money on some of this stuff. But it's been fun man. It's really fun to have some of this stuff and you know, you could send your friend a link to your wallet and show him what you got.My good friend, Clyde Edwards from sneaker box. He was hitting me. He's like: Yo, I see you got to In-Betweener about one to check out my wallet, and I sent him my wallet. We just kind of compared different stuff that people got man. It's, it's a different thing that people can bond over too. You know, like, I have a lot of friends that are into sneakers. There's a lot of sneaker based NFT's Nikki Diamond sent me over some crypto downs that he's doing, you know. I'm saying and now other people that I didn't even know were hidden and she's like: Yeah, kind of crypto down to like worry. Yeah, it only cost me .01 Ether, so it was like nothing. It's fun, man. It's really fun and interesting to see how the space is connecting with people and how, how different people's entry points vary based on their cultural cues, you know.Dan Runcie 10:06Yeah! And I think your approach with it in terms of you're trying to buy these things and hold them, you're not trying to flip them. That's what separates the genuine aspect of being both someone that's producing art, but trying to consume it in the space versus the cash grabs. And I know that's something that both you and Spottie have been focused on making sure that the stuff you're putting out isn't just a cash grab. You're trying to put out something that people should want to buy and hold the same way you do with others. And I'm curious, are there certain things that you did to make sure that that was the image that was being presented, or the way that people would see it if they wanted to buy it? Because I know that with something like NFT's that can be a delicate thing to balance.Bun B 10:53I think I do a lot of this, you know, especially with particularly with this collaboration with Spidey. I kind of followed his lead, and I didn't want to put too much of myself on it. Because I was new in this space. I didn't want to overtalk myself. I didn't over one want to overstep my boundaries. And I didn't want to mess up Spidey's reputation. He's very well known, and very well respected in the space. So for the most times, I just kind of took his lead on a lot of this stuff. He would recommend certain things to me, I would approach things from a very typical traditional release standpoint and engagement standpoint. He was like: No, well. I was like, should we go on Instagram Live? And he was like: Well, no,these things tend to work better on Twitter spaces, you know. So little things like that helped me connect and figure out the space a lot quicker. But Spottie, I mean, he was already releasing music as NFT's prior to our collaboration. So the system was already set up, I just tried not to step on anybody's toes, get in anybody's way. But I was curious about a lot of things as far as intellectual property and ownership. And, you know, it's very interesting how some of these things work, depending on what you're releasing, whether it’s video or it’s music, you know, different rules apply. So it's been educational for me as well. And now that I have this information, I have a lot of other artists, typically from my generation who are curious about it, who don't have a Spottie that they can go to. So I can kind of give them a very base entry level instructions, I try to point them in the right direction. But it's not the easiest thing for people to navigate to discord if they've never really been on one before, and don't really know the terminology, and how the communication is happening in the space. So and that's for me, like, I was just talking to a friend last night like: Yo, how do you monitor these discords? Like, how do you know who's meeting what and where? And he was like: Man, it's a language, you just got to figure out how to talk it. And once you figure out how to talk it, it's, you'll see everything happening. So I'm still learning, it's a process for sure. Because this is the space that I naturally operate in. But I'm always up to learn something new.Dan Runcie 13:02Right. And because I think that's the perspective that obviously separates you from someone that would even want to try to do this as a cash grab to begin with. You already had a clear understanding, and then you have someone that's willing to ride it with you. And then you can help do other; help support other people with that, too. But yeah, it's, it's a lot I could imagine. And now that you've got in yourself up to speed with it, I wonder how this will shape how you choose to release your music in the future overall, with NFT's but then obviously, traditional album releases and things like that.Bun B 13:37Well, it's just a further extension, right? It just gives me a deeper way of connecting with my base and with people who appreciate my art. So typically, we would only sell music to people, we would only be able to communicate to people through social media. But now in the metaverse, right? Like I can sell tickets to a virtual concert. While they're at the virtual concert, they can buy virtual merchandise, right? There's so many different ways that we can connect with people, and it doesn't all have to be monetary, right? We can have very real conversations. It's, you know, these Twitter spaces have been very interesting in terms of learning how people view art that don't necessarily have an entry point to me as a musician, right? So in determining, like in the future, what kind of NFT's we want to be involved with and how we want to present it. It has to be true to me and my art and what I represent. So a lot of those things won't maybe necessarily connect,and they won't be something that I could sell for a bunch of money even if I wanted to. But the reality is, is that, I can't afford for this to be a cash grab, because I've got 30 years of reputation on the line, right? And I've always been upfront with people about what it is I represent and what I'm presenting. And so for me, this is just fun, right? It's very, it's fun. I'm trying to not try to sell stuff at an expensive price. I just want people to have a deeper experience in something that they're already enjoying, which is my music. So, we can create these remixes, right? Or like what I'm doing with Spidey where we're allowing people to remix the song, and present it, right? Like that's, that's fun; that's dope. But it's not something that would traditionally only play through a DJ or on a radio station, right? This thing will live and breathe on an entirely brand new platform. And it will inspire other people to approach these things from a different aspect or a different angle. And that's all I really want to do. As the OG, I'm typically the one that has to bite the bullet on this stuff; jump out there first, see if it's viable, see if it makes sense. And then, show other people: Hey, this is cool. Come on, you guys, it's safe to go this way. That's really all I'm trying to do. Now, you know, not necessarily for a lot of young people, because they get it: Younger people are more tech savvy than, say, my generation is, right? I want to let them know that this is a safe space, that they can operate it. But you can't jump in here and look at the money because these people can smell a poser a mile away. They can tell him to rug pool, they know what's going on. Because they were here first, you're the new guy, you know. So but it's, it's, um, it's encouraging, I will say that it is encouraging as an artist, you know. What new ways can I find to make this experience with the people that are appreciating my art and my music deeper? You know, how can it go further? How can it last longer? That's, that's a beautiful thing. Dan Runcie 16:19Yeah, and that's a good point. You mentioned earlier, you, especially within your generation, have always been the experimenter, you've always been more willing to put yourself out there and then see what it's like and then put others up on game. How do you think that developed? Like, where did that, you know, dynamic come from for you?Bun B 16:38Well, you got to understand, I started rapping 30 plus years ago, when it wasn't even a viable job, right? People weren't rich from rap when I first got into it, but it was new. It was, it was amazing, right? The graffiti aspect of it, the breakdance aspect of it, watching the DJ, manipulating the records, and watching these guys create songs, impromptu like right in front of you. It was amazing. It was something I wanted to be a part of. And back then, you know, my mother was against it, a lot of people didn't think I would make it, it'd be successful. But I was like: Look, I'll give it some time, I'll give it a shot, I'll at least take a chance. You know, for me, I've always been open minded to take a chance on things and not everything works out. But typically when they do, they work out big. So you know, no risk, no reward. That's always been, you know, my personal motto. And you know, as long as it doesn't hurt somebody physically, as long as it doesn't compromise my family's financial and physical security. I'm open for you know, I'm willing to test it and from where I'm from, if I don't try it first, some people will never give it a chance, you know. So again, if you, you know, if you call yourself an OG, then you have to put yourself on the frontlines for all types of things, you know, not just music and hip hop or street related stuff. But even with, you know, technology and finance and all this type of stuff. I want people to get the best experience they can out of life, you know, and if I can live life and show people: Hey, this is okay to do this is safe, you know, encourage people to take a chance and jump off that cliff and see, you know, saying the biggest one when they land, I'm with it, you know, because it's worked out for me. And I know, there were a lot of things I was able to accomplish that people said I couldn't do. So I want to encourage as many people out there as possible to take chances as well.Dan Runcie 18:21Yeah, you mentioned there earlier with that, your mother in this and just you know her maybe not necessarily seeing it. And I think I heard you say this once that she didn't think that this was real until you were in Big Pimpin'. And that's when it, like, clicked for her. She was like: Oh, okay, like this is real now.Bun B 18:38Yeah, a little earlier than that. But right, right around the same time, like we were, we had the number one album and jet magazine. And that was like a big deal, right? Because that was for her generation, the only way to gauge that kind of stuff. They really weren't into Billboard magazine, they didn't, you know, charts and all of that type of stuff. So that's where people will look at it back, a jet magazine, you'd see the top singles and the top albums. And when I have the Top album and jet magazine, she kind of had to look to take notice. She was like you really do make music because there was no way for her to really gauge it. We didn't have a lot of music videos, we didn't have a lot of media exposure. You know, a lot of it was really word of mouth; our earliest use as recording artists, even though we were signed to a major label. So nothing in my life showed that I was like a recording artist, I didn't really have, you know, the money and the cars, you know, to really show that I was doing all this stuff. I couldn't point at this magazine and say: Look and see me. I couldn't point at this TV show and say: Hey, there goes my video. So it, you know, it was these small little moments that my mom could relate to because a lot of hip hop culture, my mom didn't have a frame of reference for, you know, me. That's a good thing too. Because, you know, this is a very different environment sometimes that we can operate in pimps. My mom was always deeply involved in our career. And I wasn't always crazy about that because there's a lot of rooms that I felt she shouldn't have been in because things can get very aggressive sometimes. But saying all that to be said, once I did go out and show my mom that I was capable of doing this, she was all in. She's one of my biggest supporters now, but again, sometimes you just got to go out there and throw caution to the wind. And that's always been this recurring theme in my life where, you know, I have no idea where the next road is going to leave me. But I have to be prepared to take that step regardless, you know.Dan Runcie 20:25Definitely. And I think with that, you mentioned Pimp C earlier. I feel like you and him together, just imagining what you all would have done and what USK’s, NFT approach and Web 3.0 approach would have been like, it would have been crazy.Bun B 20:41Well, Pimp was very big about interaction, right? He was really, you know, we would have concerts, you know, we'd be done on stage, say, you know, 1:30 and we probably wouldn't leave the club till 2:00 o'clock. Because taking pictures and signing autographs and just talking to people. Pimp was really big on wanting to, like, stick around after the show and, like, actually communicate with people. He was always curious as to what was on people's minds. And right now, he would have been all over; I believe, like, the metaverse and this idea of. Because I remember, he was, he introduced me to LaserDisc, right? Like, I had no idea what LaserDisc was. And I was the movie guy. That was a crazy thing. I was a big movie buff that watched all the films. And he was like: Man, I think you would like this, because you can watch the movie, and the director will talk to you like the commentaries and all that stuff. So he was, and he was a producer, he worked with a lot of, you know, recording equipment. So he had to be on the cutting edge of technology. Many people don't know that Ridin' Dirty is one of the first albums to actually be recorded in Pro Tools. So it's one of the first rap albums to be recorded fully into digital format, you know, and we were using a, a beta as a beta version. So we were testing the technology. And this is back in 1995, back in 1996, you know, so we were always trying to take advantage of advances in technology throughout our career. So it would be no surprise that this would be something that he would be trying to be a part of as much as possible. And I mean, he was, you know, he was already a very animated person. So a cartoon character with Pimp C based on it in these, you know, NFT world, you know, you could have put different hats, different color mink coats on him, he would have had a ball with it. I guarantee.Dan Runcie 22:18I could have, I could only imagine. I'm thinking about a clip of you all from international players Anthem Music Video, that would go crazy.Bun B 22:29Oh, yeah, definitely, you know, and again, you know, you never know what people gravitate to, right? That's why it's important to just throw it all up against the wall, I talked about this yesterday. I was just like: Man, you never know what it is people like about what you do. So you just give them everything you got, present yourself fully, you know, saying be open, but be as transparent as possible, and let the people decide what it is they love about you. And once you find that connection point, you can expand on that and grow that connection. I think NFT's is the perfect place for that, because it allows multiple interpretations of a theme that's already associated with you.Dan Runcie 23:06Right, right, for sure. I think with this, too. There's so much that's already known. And I think to a lot of people, you're definitely on the cutting edge with this. And I think naturally, you're probably: Like, okay, well, what is that thing going to be like three years from now, five years from now that everyone's gravitated towards? Do you have any ideas on what that could look like in music?Bun B 23:27Well, I think for one in music, I think a lot of,especially, we look at, you know, with, with social distancing, and a pandemic, and how people had to start doing like online concerts and versus and all of this different stuff. I do believe that. You know, if you remember last year, Travis Scott, and I think Justin Bieber both did virtual concerts, right? Travis did one on Fortnite. I think you'll see a lot more of that because it allows for more artistic interpretation for the performer, right? So you can do things in a metaverse concert that you maybe can't do in real life, right? Levels of production interaction, people communicating to you in real time, right? In ways that you probably couldn't do in the middle of a fully organized and fully produced concert.I just think it allows people who appreciate what you do to have more access to you and what you do. And I think that for me, is where things are going to go. I think, I think there's going to be more. I think not only are we going to spend more time in the metaverse, I think we're going to be concerned about how we look in a metaverse, how we present ourselves in a metaverse as far as technology. And I think it'd be a lot closer to Ready Player One in the virtual sense, but not in the real world being this dystopian future kind of thing. I think we're okay for the next couple of years. I don't think mankind is going to, you know, turn into Mad Max that quick, right? I do think that people are going to spend, want to spend. I want to say that, everyone will want to spend more time. I think for me In the next three years, there's going to have to be some type of technological advance in the way we enter the metaverse because VR headsets for many people can be a very cumbersome thing to deal with for an extended period of time. And for me, that's the only thing with being in virtual reality for more than 20,30,40 minutes is the fact that the headset can get hot, especially if you're playing like Fruit Ninja, or boxing or working out, right? It gets hard to get sweaty. It's a lot. You know, I think as, I think as the technology starts to advance on that aspect, people will be more willing to get into it because it’s, it's kind of awkward, this big headset and these paddles and all of that. I think at some point, you know, if you look at who it is that is working with Oakley. Is it Facebook, or Google? That has the glasses, or is it not YouTube? Yeah, it's YouTube, right? We're with Oakley, where you can film things directly from, from the glasses. I think technology is going to lean more in that direction, I think we will be able to incorporate more of the metaverse on top of the real world so that you will be cognizant of where you are in the real world at the same time. So you're not tripping over the coffee table or something because people are going to want to incorporate this more into their everyday life. You won't be able to drive with it or maybe walk down the street with it. But I think you can move around and share spaces a little bit better, you know, but that's just me. I just want this to be a more pleasant experience and easily accessible experience. I think at some point, the metaverse will be as easily accessible as WiFi. If you can find a WiFi connection, you can jump right into the metaverse to connect with people in places. That's awesome. Starbucks is gonna look a lot different in three years. I could tell you.Dan Runcie 26:47Yeah, I think, I think that's it. Because when I think about the VR companies like Magic Leap, or Oculus, where I think their growth slowed a bit was exactly what you said. Having that headset on for a long period of time does create a barrier and friction on so many levels. And I think that's why for that moment, we saw faster movement and growth in AR as opposed to VR, right? So I think, the next motion of that is like what you're saying with glasses, it's like a hybrid of those. You still have the thing over you, but it's still layered on top of the real world, you can still interact with whatever's happening around you.Bun B 27:25The only problem is his peripheral, right? Like you have to figure out where the peripheral would stop with glasses, right? At some point, you still have to have simple coverage, right? In order to fully be constant in this space. But that doesn't, that's not always going to work. So I think, as long as someone can like with the click of a button, like, tablets have a real space in the back of their metaverse like the in and out, right? The accessibility, I think, to and back and forth, that's going to be the thing that I'm sure there's somewhere in, in the r&d departments trying to figure out right now. Definitely, I think this would be amazing, like on flights, like, just think if you have, like, a long international flight, right? You know, you get tired of watching movies, and listening to music and food. You can jump on, you know, the same phone, if there's like a WiFi experience, you can jump into the metaverse right there, you know, and interact with other people on a plane, right? Without, you know, without having to get up and go there. You can find out somebody in 34C is interested in the same things as you, you know, it could get sketchy too. You know, that could get sketchy too. I've been on planes before where people were randomly air dropping pictures to people that maybe they didn't want airdropped to them. Like that. But the world is full of wonder. I'm excited about the future , always have been, always will. Dan Runcie 28:36Yeah. And I also think we're still in the early days of this too. I mean, it's very real that I know that. I know that Facebook changed its name to Meta, and they may seem like the leader, but these companies, especially the new ones, they're growing fast. Every new social platform grows faster than the one before that. And like we're saying five years from now, just think about, like, how quick Tick Tock blew up, or how quick Clubhouse blew up in that, you know, few months, right?Bun B 29:01And prevalent, not just that it grew up. It's prevalent, and it's accepted, you know, across the board, you know, different cultures, languages, gender identity, everybody's getting it the same way. I talk about this all the time, every now and then technology comes to people or an idea, or some level of artists presented and everyone receives it generally the same way, right? And I think that the metaverse is going to get to a point where it can present itself to the average consumer who isn't tech savvy, who doesn't have cryptocurrency, who doesn't have a metamask wallet with, with NFT's and tokens in it. But will still want to interact and engage. You know, I saw with the Nintendo Wii, I think the Nintendo Wii doesn't get enough credit for being a precursor to this. You know, that was something that everybody wanted to see what their face would look like, what their avatar would look like on the game and we could bowl and play tennis and all of that, right? I think that's going to come back around. I think we're going to see a happy medium between what we know VR to be, and what we want VR to be very soon. I think there's too many companies investing in a technology. There's too many upstarts. And there's too many people whose minds are not focused on this. It's happening. It's not about a matter of if, it's when it's happening right now. And everybody's getting on board, all these big corporations that you see creating NFT's and trying to sell up cheese. I remember when I saw the massive Thanksgiving parade floats were being sold as NFT's. I'm like, okay, and like, this is massive, right? Right. You know, saying like, get on board, like everybody can get on board. And you can hold out if you want, I held out on Twitter, I held out on Instagram and social media. And I'm pretty sure it cost me It cost me money. At some point. It cost me connectivity at some point. And you know, it cost me relationships because I wasn't there early, right? A lot of people that got there early, were able to take full advantage of it. And you know, a lot of us are still playing catch up with this kind of stuff. So as far as the, you know, Web 3.0 in the metaverse, I want to be, if not ahead of the game, at least I have my finger right on the side and on the cusp of what's to come. Dan Runcie 31:11That Nintendo Wii example is a really good one for a few reasons. Because I think it also signaled what people think is the real technology advancement, if that makes sense. Because up until that point, everything was about graphics. How can the Xbox One be upgraded graphics and the Xbox 360? Or a ps4? Whatever it is.Bun B 31:31How close to reality can it look, right?Dan Runcie 31:34Right, and their whole thing was like: Okay, maybe if it's less about that, but more about like: Okay, what is the actual experience that you can create with other people and making people do things? And that's why, we blew up when it did when it did, you know, let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor.Bun B 31:52Yeah, so what's the goal, right? What was the goal of the Nintendo Wii for people to enjoy it together, right? So they focused on that, instead of how pretty the picture was going to look? And how sharp the animation was going to look and how fluid everything was going to be? No, it just, you know, the avatars just like the Apple avatars, right? They're fun, neat, animated character caricature versions of who we are, right? It's like spending the day at the pier or something, you know, and it allows the kids to play a game with the parents to play a game with the grandparents, you know. Nintendo Wii changed Thanksgiving weekend and changed Christmas and New Year's, right? Because now the whole family can gather around the television. And instead of watching a movie, we can all do Nintendo Wii bowling. I feel like technology is going to get more and more into that. The metaverse lends itself to that, you know, I'm saying. Especially if, say, you can get on your iPad, you can get on, on your cell phones, the kid can't get on on his Nintendo, right? I can get on, on my phone. And we can all be interacting, playing games against each other. You know, what was it there was, there were virtual dominoes, I remember that became a big thing during the pandemic, because people in different houses could play dominoes against each other. People who would normally come together and commune and play dominoes in person could play it virtually. Now imagine that there's an avatar, you know, I'm saying there's benefits, the winner could get this, we could all put .01 Ether or something. I don't want to encourage gambling, but it's just different ways for us to have fun together. You know, and I think, I think the metaverse is going to be perfect for that. Because if everybody just has to put something on, then we're all there. Now, you know, I love the idea of, of virtual art galleries, where you can have the stuff that's in your wallet, and it's on the wall, you can display it and present it to other people. You know, you can go by someone's gallery and look at their art, they can come and look at yours. We'll be having listening parties, people can come and commune, play albums and preview music and videos. But the world is wide open, and it's just about how open you are to it.Dan Runcie 33:54That's exciting. I'm excited for that. I know you're going to be up on all of that. And I mean, I can't wait. I feel like of course with some of these things. You always feel it out to see, okay, what is, you know, the worthwhile thing to put the investment behind. But there's always going to be things and I think, I think it's going to be bright ahead so I can't wait for that. Switching gears a bit though, I want to talk a bit more about hip hop and I want to talk about Houston specifically. Because obviously you're a legend in this game, you know, play in Port Arthur, Texas on the map. And it's been great. You mentioned Travis Scott earlier. It's been great to see what he's done. It's been great to see what Megan Stallion has done as well. And I feel like, you know, you've mentioned that especially in the 90s, Houston necessarily wasn't getting you know, all the love that it definitely deserved. And now we are starting to see a few more Houston artists get some of that mainstream awareness that maybe the earlier generation didn't get. But I'm curious, where you think things are right now. Do you feel like Houston is finally getting its fair share? Do you think they're still selling room there for the region?Bun B 35:02Well, I think the only thing that has really held us back here has always been media, the media accessibility, right? Not being in New York and not being in Los Angeles, which are media capitals of the world, not just of the US, right? There is all the accessibility to magazines, to TV shows, right? To entertainment conglomerates, in general, all the access is there. We've always been operating on the outside. Well, now with social media, it kind of levels the playing field. And if we're all operating on a level playing field, then yes, we can compete with anybody, we can compete with any and everybody on any level. So that's why I think you start to see more not just prominence of, of Houston artists, but Houston artists on a major level, right? Because everybody can be a part of the experience. At the same time, people now have been educated to Houston's street scene, Houston's music scene, everybody knows what the car the candy painted cars are, you know, DJ Screw, they know all of that everybody has the cultural cues to it. And since we're all operating on that same,even playing, let's just see who's got the best talent and who presents themselves in the best way. And you'd be hard pressed to find somebody to present that presents themselves live on stage in person better than someone like a Travis Scott, or a Megan Thee Stallion. Obviously, Travis has, you know, has a lot that he's going through right now. But I don't think anyone would ever say that Travis wasn't one of the best performances out there, right? So if we're given the same opportunities in the same platforms that everyone else has to present ourselves to the masses. Houston has just a chance, if not even more of a chance of being successful on a grand scale than everyone else, because we had to learn how to operate without mass media outlets, you know what I'm saying. So if we can build up a following based on that. Well, once we get access to the media outlets, it was game over at that point, right? So yeah, I look at a lot of the talent, you know, people like Maxo Kream on the edge, you know, people like Fat Tony, there's a lot of great up and coming talent coming out of Houston Sauce Walka and Peso Peso, Trill Sammy, Dice SoHo, a lot of really good talent coming out of the city. And they're all finding their fan bases through social media. So they're the people that they are connecting with while it may not be a million people at one time. That 150,000-250,000 group that they're connecting with, they're building strong connections, they're building connections that will last for years to come. And it's important to do that. I tell artists all the time, you don't need a million fans to make a million dollars. You know, that's a big misconception that you need to sell a million things to someone to make a million dollars to a million people. No, it doesn't have to be at all. If you’re consistent, 10,000 people spending money with you; 10,000 people spending 50 bucks with you, on a monthly basis will make you a millionaire in a year. So don't be greedy. Just be consistent and patient.Dan Runcie 37:59Definitely. And I think to that, obviously, the internet helps democratize so much of this. But to your point, I think you're still highlighting this, that medium still does make a difference for a lot of these artists, and especially in the hubs that they're in. So I feel like it's getting closer to that point where things are equalized. But unfortunately, there still is some benefit that the artist that is close to the New York or close to the LA would have. But I'm curious, especially as we're thinking about whether it's the metaverse or just future development in different areas. If that piece will continue to change, if the media, especially the hip hop entertainment media, will start to become even more democratized at that, from that perspective.Bun B 38:44I think we have an advantage because there's always been this independent spirit, right? That if the powers that be won't allow us to use their platforms that will create our own, right? And it's that self sufficient mindset, right? Self sustaining mindset that would lend itself to this, right? It would lend itself to the point of content creation, right? We don't sit around and wait to find out who can distribute our content the best, who can we partner with. No, we're gonna figure out a way to create this content independently. And because of that, we are now the sole owners of the intellectual property, all of that term and all of that knowledge and application lends itself to the metaverse, right? Because you have your own small group of people, right? That has been supporting you outside of the major media system. So now you started discord with those people. And now all those people are communicating with each other in real time, constantly and consistently. You can find out exactly what it is that they all have in common in terms of their connection with you. And now, you can feed that beast properly. You can give it a better diet, because it's more refined. You know exactly what it is that they're coming for. It's for sustenance, right? So you can take all of the filler out of the presentation and just give them exactly what it is that they need. You can't ask for a better access from an artist perspective, right? This is exactly what you would want. People used to pay 10s of 1000s of dollars for people to have special interest groups come in and tell them what people are thinking. Now you can have a place where all of the people that support you like you,and listen to you and appreciate you coming together and talk about what it is they like, and maybe what it is they don't like. So you can have a more fine tuned perception of what it is that people are supporting you for. We are in a perfect position, being from Houston, being self-sustained, being creators, content creators, and owners, right? To understand how to take full advantage of what the metaverse or Web 3.0 has to offer. That's why, me personally, I want to make sure that I'm out here leading the charge, not just for the next generation, but for prior generations, there's a place in space here for everybody. You know what I’m saying, and you don't need to wait until people invite you. It's wide open right now what make yourself at home.Dan Runcie 41:01Love that. Love that. That's what it's about making the opportunities. No, that's amazing. That's amazing. A couple of questions here before we, before we let you go. I want to chat with you about the restaurant business because I know that's something that you've been deep in. I know you actually teamed up with my guy premium Pete as well on a few things in this space. And I know that you recently started Trill Burgers. It would be great to hear how that's been going and what your vision is and outlook is for that.Bun B 41:28Well, anybody that knows me can look at me, you can tell that I like food, right? When I'm going to kid around with that I'm a big boy. And I like food. But as I've gotten older, I've gotten to appreciate the process more of cooking, but then also how restaurants work. I've made good relationships with a lot of people here in the restaurant and culinary world. And I've just been on the outside for so long. Like I'd love to have an entry point into this business, right? I'm not necessarily a chef, by trade or nature, my wife and I do a lot of cooking. We used to do a lot of cooking demos, and why not. But it was just about finding the right place, you know, the right place to enter and make it make sense. Good friends of mine owned a restaurant here in town, Sticky's Chicken, Patty and Vince, brother and sister, you know, great business. And they were bought out by a Restaurant Group who wanted to partner with me on a concept as well. So between myself and team Sticky's Chicken, the restaurant group that was approaching me, and a good friend of mine, Nick Schofield, who kind of helped bring everything together. They presented this burger concept, I had my own ideas of what it should be. We agreed on the inception. And the idea and the concept, presented it to the public. And it's been going amazing ever since, you know, we've been able to present it at a lot of great places like ComplexCon, AstroWorld, and we're set to do it at Coachella, pretty soon. So there's just a lot of great opportunities that are coming from that. Once people saw that I wanted to be more active in the food space, different people started to reach out. So I'm currently working with Paul Qui, an award winning chef from Texas, on a soul food restaurant concept with my wife, Queen Sophie. So that's going to be the next thing and looking at a lot of different local brands here that are doing amazing things with food, but can use maybe a little bit more energy and maybe a little bit more awareness to take them to the next level. So I'm looking to partner with people as well, not just building an original concept, but seeing concepts that are really well thought out, really well fleshed out, have amazing food and again, could just use maybe a little energy or a little like: Hey, come over here and try this. So you know, I think in the next three to five years, man, I think there's gonna be a lot of really, really good opportunities for me in that space. We're already talking about how that translates into the metaverse and, and, and the idea of, you know, things happening in the real world as well as in a virtual world. So there's a lot of great ideas that we have on the table. I don't want to give everything away. But I think by the time we get to maybe NFT Denver, or NFT LA, will be presenting some of these new ideas from half of myself and the guys that I'm in business with. So, you know, the food industry is exciting for me to be a part of. But it's not just about brick and mortars. And it's not just about real world application. There's also room for this to extend into the metaverse as well. And we're all excited about that.Dan Runcie 44:19I was just gonna say when you started talking about this, I'm already seeing a headline soon enough. Trill Burger has bought real estate in the metaverse to open up shop.Bun B 44:29Hey, look, man, look, anything is possible nowadays. Like I said, this space is wide open. You know, there's a lot of things that my partners and I think make sense for us as a new brand. Personally, for my brand. They're encouraged to try it. I'm encouraged to support him in trying it. Again, it's not typical. It's not traditional, but I think maybe that's a good thing. You know, I think there's a lot of people looking for things that are outside of the box and outside of the norm, and I think we have some great progressive ideas that we could present to people that fall right in line with everything that everybody wants to be a part of the metaverse for.Dan Runcie 45:03Can't wait. I feel like you know, I can already see the headline comments. So I'm excited to see it for sure. But no, for now, this would be the last question before we let you go. You were on the I'm an athlete podcast a couple pretty recently, us with Brandon Marshall and Perkins, a bunch of them. And you were talking about how Tom Brady is the Jay-Z of the NFL. And then you also mentioned that Aaron Rodgers is more like Naz. So who is that Bun B in the NFL? Who is Bun B?Bun B 45:33Wow, no. When we had that conversation, I was asked that, and I didn't have a good answer. At the time. I haven’t thought about it. I've always been a fan of Frank Gore, the running back. Frank Gore is, I think, he's 40 right now, still out there. One of the strongest, toughest guys in the game going up against the young bucks, you know, always does well enough, right? Like, he's, he's not going to be the top running back, you know, maybe not even in the top 20. But he always does the job. He comes, he gets the job done. And he's a real leader in the locker room because he's a veteran. And that's why I want to be somebody that, look, if I show up, I'm going to do what I said, I'm going to do.You know what I'm saying. And I'm going to try to encourage other people and lead them in the right way because I've been playing this game, maybe longer than you guys are, and I can probably help you work smarter instead of working hard, you know. So I would say probably like a Frank Gore. But that's just me because I really like his style of play.Dan Runcie 46:29That's a good answer. And I think he's actually up there and yardage. He might be in the top five for the NFL, for running back yards up there, right?Bun B 46:37Oh, Brandon, back on. I think he's in the top 10. Yeah. 10. Yes. So he slowly and quietly right, very quietly, very quietly, put those numbers.Dan Runcie 46:45Yeah, if people want to think that, but I couldn't see you getting in the ring with Deron Williams, though. I couldn’t have seen that happen.Bun B 46:51No, no, no, no, I'm not gonna play that. I'm talking about on the field, I would make a better decision off the field than that. I'm not playing those kinds of games. You got to know your weight class.Dan Runcie 47:04No, for sure. It's funny when I was thinking about this for you, the Dave that came to mind for me was Randall Cunningham. Wow. And here's why. Okay, because I think about someone like him and originator who, when he was, especially when he was doing his thing in Philly. I feel like that was just when people were starting to see, you know, the quarterback that could run in a quarterback that can throw and do his thing. And in many ways, that person paved the way for the Mahomes up today. And all of these guys that can do these things when the rules have changed a little bit. You know, there's a whole bunch of more past coverage, a little bit kinder to quarterbacks in a way where someone like Rambo Cunningham could have had, you know. You know, who knows what Randall Cunningham could do in this era, but it wasn't for Randall Cunningham doing what he did. He paved the way to make it possible for the young cats today.Bun B 47:55I like the correlation. I like that. I'm not mad at that. I'm not mad at that.Dan Runcie 48:00Now I hear that. Bun B 48:01Oh, come in. I'm with it.I'm with it.Dan Runcie 48:03Nice. Nice.Bun B 48:05It's good. You didn't compare me to scrub?Dan Runcie 48:08For sure. For sure. Well, bond. This is fun. Man. I appreciate you for coming on. This was I mean, I think people are gonna get a lot out of this combo, for sure. And I know we talked in the beginning about everything you've got coming up. But what are some things coming up soon in the next couple months that you want to plug or let the trapital audience know about?Bun B 48:26Oh, on March 11th. March 11th is going to be a big day for me. I'm going to be performing in Houston at the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo. For people that aren't from Houston, this is the 98 years. So it's a big part of Houston culture and tradition. And I'm the first black man from Houston to headline this event. So we're doing a big event there. I'm bringing out a lot of guys like Slim Thug, Paul Wall, Mike Jones and bringing out a lot of local guys because, you know, we've never been able to be a part of this on this level. And so I want to share this moment with other people who grew up in the city like me, and understand what it means to be able to be a black man from the city on that stage. You know, on that same day, I'm releasing a new album called MoTrill. It's a collaboration with a producer from Houston named Corey Moe, one of Pimp C's production protegees, and so we have a collaborative album together. The first single is out right now it's called Hesitate is with me, Tobe Nwigwe, Talib Kweli and David Banner. It's a more mature album, you know, like I'm acting my age, you know, I'm age appropriate. And I want to make music that people from my generation can listen to and enjoy and be lit on their own level. Because there's a lot of things in modern music that people from my generation just can't relate to. You know what I’m saying. I'll maybe appreciate it on the level that it should be appreciated. So I want to make sure that I'm still making current new music for people who've been along with me on this 30 year journey, you know what I’m saying. I'm not gonna leave him here like this. We don't keep going until we can't. No, I love that. Right.So March 11th Man, to be looking for a lot for me that day and a couple of different surprises, too. I got a lot of things coming up in this metaverse space, you know, a couple of collaborations now that I have a clear idea of what people would want for me. That was really a lot of what I was trying to do, was to figure out how would people want an NFT for me? What would you know, what, what would you want to see from me? What would make sense for me, right? And so I think we've got a really good idea of how to present ourselves in a space, make it easy, you know, make it not just a, you know, an NFT but also something that has something tangible physically attached to it, you know, make it a deeper experience for people. And we got some really good ideas. I'm partnering with a good friend of mine, and I think we're gonna have something present to people. Hopefully by March that'll be really fun and encouraging, we'll extend throughout the year. Like it's we've got some really cool stuff attached. So just keep your eyes open.Keep following him on social media on Instagram @BunB on Twitter @BunBTrillOG. And on Facebook @RealBunBofUGK and stay posted we got to be: Oh, and we got the discord coming soon. So stay tuned to my Twitter. We will probably be putting all the discord information out through the Twitter page. So there's I noticed that a lot of energy from metaverse and, and Web 3.0 takes place on Twitter. So we're moving all that energy there so we can go straight to the people that are already engaged. But we're excited for what the year has to be, you know, have this store and years to come.Dan Runcie 48:53We'll keep an eye out for that man excited for you can't wait, Bun thanks again, man.Bun B 51:35Thanks, Dan.Dan Runcie 51:40If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link,texted to a friend, posted in your group chat, posted in your Slack groups wherever you and your people talk to spread the word. That's how trapnell continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it if you use Apple podcast, go ahead rate the podcast, give it a high rating and Weaver review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

Since Tuma Basa broke into the music industry in the late ‘90s, he’s seen first-hand the complete transformation of the business. But amid the changes, Tuma has been a consistent force in curating hip-hop music and connecting it with brand-new audiences far and wide. That’s on full display in his current role as the Director of Black Music & Culture at YouTube.It’s a unique title for an even more unique individual. Tuma cut his teeth in music on the programming side, working for BET and MTV for over 10 years. Next, he was a guiding force in the launch of P Diddy’s REVOLT TV. But once the industry embraced streaming, Tuma left traditional TV and joined the new frontier with Spotify. There, he was the curator behind the RapCaviar playlist — which amassed over nine million followers at the time, making it a top-5 Spotify playlist globally.Tuma joined YouTube in 2018. The platform may not get the credit that a service like Spotify does, but it's just as influential in bridging artists directly with listeners. True to form, Tuma is leveraging YouTube’s worldwide reach and connecting it with not only emerging artists (think NBA YoungBoy) but on-the-rise genres too (AfroBeats, Dancehall). I really enjoyed this interview with Tuma, who is on the frontlines of the streaming era. Here are all the topics we covered on the show:Episode Highlights[02:44] Being on the front lines with the hip hop world[04:55] Tuma’s experience working at MTV when Dancehall was becoming part of mainstream music[06:01] The disconnection in terms of expectations: paid shows vs promo[07:50] Tuma talks about African artists and folk traditional music[09:28] The reasons why Tuma found YouTube attractive[11:14] Breaking barriers and giving more exposure to artists through streaming[12:45] What does success look like for Tuma?[15:23] Why you should spend time and have more focus on YouTube[18:30] NBA YoungBoy: One of the biggest stars on YouTube[26:36] The role of technology in the music industry[28:26] The CD and DVD era[31:15] Tuma’s outlook about generation transfer, and the concept of an album [37:51] Trends where music is heading, and what people think about emerging technology[41:45] What Tuma wants the “Trapital” audience to know aboutListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Tuma Basa, @tumabasaTrapital is home to the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Junae Brown is a marketing expert and the founder and CEO of Browned 2 Perfection agency. She started her career in music and had worked for several record labels like Sodi Layla's, Columbia, and RCA. She gained the skills and expertise while working for these companies and set herself to start looking at the opportunities to have more control over all the exciting projects she wants, which is primarily why she started her agency.In today's episode, June shares her experiences way back in the music industry and how it paved the way for her to create her agency. She talks about the secret behind her signature, "Beyonce of marketing," that stood out in the marketing realm. She also shares her insights on building brands and creating a scalable business in the music industry. We had an insightful talk about her and her business ethics, which makes her distinct, making people want to work with her. Episode Highlights[01:36] Looking back at Junae’s previous roles in the music industry [06:06] Junae’s take on the royalty rate of streaming [09:16] Her thoughts on the previous and emerging labels in the music industry[12:57] Using the internet to maximize what artists are selling and get better compensation[15:40] What is it that attracts people to work with her agency[21:47] Bridging the gap between building a following and building a brand[24:11] What does “Beyonce of marketing” mean[32:57] Junae’s business ethics and commitment to legacy and impact[33:53] Who is her dream client? [39:34] Junae’s talk with Yoh Phillips on music’s record label misconceptions[44:30] Junae’s insights on having marketing strategies to make a music brand marketable[47:56] Her closing advice on making great business with musicListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Junae Brown https://www.instagram.com/junaebrown/ https://www.instagram.com/B2PAgency/ Trapital is home to the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.

In today’s episode, our host, Dan Runcie, is joined by Gina Bianchini, co-founder, and CEO of Mighty Networks, which provides creators what they need to build their community-run courses and hosts live stream conversations, and Zoe Scaman, a brand strategist, owner of Bodacious, a strategy studio in London.The three talks about the creative economy survey Gina and Zoe conducted to identify some common struggles that creators are faced with right now. Specifically, they discussed the burnout and frustration creators are going through to keep up with the treadmill of creating content day by day and keeping up with social media algorithms and the solutions the survey surfaced to help creators get out the other side to try to find new models. They also share what trends creators should watch out for and what opportunities look like for the rest of 2022.Tune in to get valuable insights on the survey and what’s behind the New Creator Manifesto Gina and Zoe designed to help creators build a sustainable community with less burnout and more freedom and equity.Episode Highlights[01:11] Introducing Zoe and Gina[04:02] Overview of the creator economy survey[06:43] An unexpected stats on the creator economy report[10:45] What frustrates creators in keeping up with their social media game[14:13] Opinions on the issue of ownership in social media platforms[17:55] How to grow without spending much time building a massive audience[21:03] The importance of shifting the focus on cultivating community value[25:58] Learning the behavior of a brand’s customer set helps identify its equity layer[28:55] The fundamentals of community design to create a thriving and sustainable community[33:25] What actually came out from the creator economy research as a solution to challenges the majority of creators face[36:50] Zoe and Gina’s framework in building community[40:06] Being a community leader or creator is like being a host at a party[46:05] Opinions on social media platform subscriptions, subscription burnout, and how to shift to a sustainable model[51:06] Does the community way of thinking bring brand purpose alive?Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Gina Bianchini  Zoe Scaman Trapital is home to the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

Kevin Fredericks is a comedian, producer, director, and entrepreneur behind KevOnStage studios. He is known for his works Major Deal (2016), No Good Men (2008), and The Family Exchange (2015). Despite his talent, Hollywood somehow couldn't say yes to him. But that didn't stop him from having his green light and making his trademark in the tv industry. In fact, he surprised people to build his own streaming service. Today's episode talks about how he built an independent brand that really paid off his hard work. He established a solid fan base, had millions of followers on social media, and monetized these platforms by producing his hilarious viral content, a total blast in the mainstream.Listen as we talk about what's going on in his business and his independent success, turning rejection into a massive opportunity to be where he is now.Episode Highlights[01:56] What KevOnStage is currently working on[04:49] His take on more black content going in the mainstream[06:53] KevOnStage’s motto, his marketing strategy, and business goals[11:57] What it’s like to have autonomy in his brand[19:08] His thoughts on artists knowing their audience and dealing with critics[21:30] What's the process from the stuff put out on socials versus onstage[25:24] How does he approach his game using different social platforms[32:38] What’s something beyond just the monetary gain that makes him want to continue to feel inspired to create content[35:13] His opinion on creators who are a one-platform-dominant[38:21] Where does his most lucrative income come from [41:57] How he diversify his content to own the media and make his brand stand out[45:51] What would he like to be doing more of[51:28] KevOnStage’s new content to watch out forListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Kevin Fredericks StudiosTrapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.