“‘Paranormal’ is a term that came up in the history of these things to mark off phenomena such as telepathy, clairvoyance, and psychokinesis. But what I’m proposing is that those sorts of capacities are within the normal range of human functioning, and I do believe they’re operative in animals before humans. Now I’m absolutely convinced of the evidence on that.” —Michael Murphy Mike Murphy is the leading integral theorist of his generation; Ken Wilber is the leading integral theorist of his. Their conversations are unlike anything you will hear anywhere else. These dialogues are warm, witty, loving, and vibrant. They are not, however, for the intellectually faint of heart.

In this lively conversation, Surya Das recounts his own personal story on the spiritual path, from seeking to realizing, with all the trials and tribulations inherent in a journey without a goal. In this wide-ranging discussion of the obstacles and opportunities of bringing a new religion into a culture — in this case, Buddhism into America — Surya Das covers a multitude of critical issues, issues that confront not merely Buddhism but spirituality in general as it encounters the modern and postmodern world. One of the major difficulties is the reluctance of the older culture (such as Tibetan and Japanese) to release their teachings to “barbarians” (that would be us). Yet once the leap is made, the religion lands in a new culture where the obstacles can be even greater. Foremost among these include the dilution of the dharma; popularizing it to the extent that it no longer possesses any depth or liberating power; and “boomeritis Buddhism,” which Ken covers in galvanizing detail.

Serj Tankian, lead singer of System of a Down, voted the #1 band of 2002 by leading critics, is one of the most original and passionate of today’s artists, and one of Integral Institute’s favorite contributors to our ongoing conversation on the avant garde. With a surging and cacophonic presentation, System of a Down simply can’t be pigeonholed—a type of genre-busting transcendental howl. Rolling Stone magazine called System’s sophomore effort, Toxicity, “a bouquet of smart rock and ardent social comment.” In this surprisingly touching dialogue, Serj speaks about some of the most important aspects of his life that contribute to the “post-everything” bouquet of sound that is System of a Down. All four members of System are of Armenian heritage, and Serj begins the conversation by commenting on their activities with the Armenian National Committee of America and its efforts to hold the US to its commitments to the Genocide Convention. Encyclopedia Britannica estimates that the Ottoman/Turkish government was responsible for the deaths of 600,000–1,500,000 Armenians from 1915-1923, and yet, as Serj points out, this tragedy is “not recognized by the United States officially as a genocide.” Serj and Ken go on to speak of how a creative response to injustice is central to their work, whether musical or academic. What they both have in common is an integral-aperspectival space—a holding space in consciousness—that rebels against the marginalization of any views, and one of the views most marginalized in today’s world is the integral. Both the culture and the counterculture actively oppress it. But the conversation is far from morbid. “I think the most open times for me have been when I’m completely goofy and creative… and the most serious and powerful things can come through that goofiness.” The conversation dances from the beginnings of System, to Serj’s eclectic musical interests, to the vital role of a spacious—and integral—consciousness in living and creating in today’s world. Many people listen to System of a Down and think, “How could you be so angry?” In this dialogue Serj explains, “I’m not angry.” The expression of a deeply caring consciousness can be a passionate shout or a compassionate whisper; they go together. What is so moving about this conversation is the depth of heart-felt compassion and justice expressed by Serj Tankian. “I’ve never spoken so personally about these issues,” he told us. After hearing this dialogue, we think you’ll be glad that he did….

Diane and Corey are joined by guests Greg Thomas and Mark Palmer in this groundbreaking discussion about racism, anti-racism, and racial integration, highlighting a number of critical views that have been largely missing from the larger conversation that’s been taking place culturally in recent months and years. Watch as we bring some integral understanding to ideas central to anti-racism and the pluralistic discourse itself — ideas like critical race theory, dismantling white supremacy, eradicating systemic racism, overcoming white fragility, and addressing social privilege. Which pieces we might want to include, and which do we likely want to transcend altogether? We also address how the conversation about race can be easily reduced to a grievance discourse that fails to recognize the dignity, resilience, artistry, and spiritual power of the black community. So enjoy the following discussion with Greg, Mark, Diane, and Corey as we try to create a space where we can unite multiple divergent perspectives on race and racism, reignite our sense of shared humanity, and expand our circles of care.

 If you enjoy this episode, be sure to check out more episodes of Integral Justice Warrior. Watch them all for only $1! https://integrallife.com/category/perspectives/integral-justice-warrior/

Brother David Steindl-Rast, the author of Gratefulness: The Heart of Prayer and a practicing Benedictine monk for over half a century, discusses why a new understanding of God is needed to carry spirituality into the future. “There are at least three ways of talking about Spirit: You can say what Spirit is like, you can say what Spirit is not, or you can have a direct experience of Spirit. And the best way to say what Spirit is like in today’s world, is evolutionary panentheism….” Brother David begins by telling Ken about his website, Gratefulness.org. He touches on its role as a forum for what The New York Times refers to as the “2nd Superpower,” or those people across the globe committed to peace, and how something as simple as the act of lighting a candle can be a powerful expression of gratefulness in an agitated and agitating world. Ken discusses religion on the world scene, pointing out that there are actually levels, or stages of spirituality. What this means in practical terms is that each higher stage of spirituality is capable of and committed to more inclusive understandings of love, care, and compassion. The great irony is that while the lower levels of spirituality lead human beings into war, the higher levels lead them into peace. It is here that Brother David introduces what he calls the Godview. The Godview refers to the way a person conceives of God, just as their worldview refers to the way they conceive of the world. In lower levels of spiritual development, the Godview is comprised of “unexamined assumptions,” whereas in higher levels the Godview is born of a direct experience of the numinous. Like the worldview, the Godview is not merely an intellectual construct but an organizing principle for the way life is lived. Explaining further, Brother David goes on to contrast theism (positing a transcendent God, whom one may know on personal terms) with panentheism (literally, “all in God,” or the divine as both transcendent and immanent). It is the latter Godview, Brother David suggests, that will carry spirituality into the future and that has far-reaching implications for inter-religious dialogue. Ken agrees, and goes on to explain that even though God is unfathomable, there are better and worse ways of conceiving that which is ultimately inconceivable, and that if individuals must have a “positive” image for God, that evolutionary-informed panentheism is the most accurate expression. Only through panentheism, affirms Ken, is science and spirituality reconcilable as an evolutionarily unfolding of Spirit-in-action, and only through such a Godview can religion shake off its pre-modern, pre-rational, superstitious roots that have been erroneously elevated to post-rational glory. In closing, Brother David and Ken discuss the significant implications of evolutionary panentheism for inter-religious dialogue, particularly as related to the Christian tradition, the world’s largest organized religion. Until we find ways of presenting our common religious roots in postmodern packaging, concur Ken and Brother David, we are in trouble. We invite you to explore with us the ancient roots of the spiritual quest, and the new branches that are growing to support this endeavor in today’s world….

As many people know, Billy Corgan and Smashing Pumpkins burst on the scene with their first album, Gish, in 1991, which shot to the top of the charts, which is where the Pumpkins remained for a decade, all the harder in that critics considered them “sophisticated,” “complex,” “with great depth,” words usually reserved for artistic success and commercial failure. Billy and the Pumpkins achieved both, as did his next group, Zwan…. In this inside look at this own artistic unfolding, Billy discusses why he formed, and then dissolved, the Pumpkins, and likewise Zwan, as his own artistic crest (or leading edge or avant garde) moved forward. He and Ken talk about the leading edge of consciousness evolution and why artists are so often riding that edge — hence, the avant garde. To be on the crest of one’s own unfolding consciousness is not to guarantee creativity, or greatness, or even talent; it is, however, necessary if not sufficient for such. Since dissolving Zwan, Billy has been experimenting with a succession of avenues for creating new forms of music. He has quietly recorded new solo material, and is planning on re-entering the studio this month to record what he and Ken refer to in the dialogue as the “futuristic rock record.” Billy also plans on experimenting with small groups of audiences who can participate in a type of co-creation of music—”I’m still working on ways to integrate the opinion or the feeling of the audience into its own living art.” Whether or not any of these experimental forms succeed is not the point; the point is exactly as Billy says in this dialogue: “Even how I approach composition, I’m going at it from a different angle from how I would normally do it. Different process, different results.” And the different process is surfing the leading edge, whether you wipe out or not.

Spiritual conversations often emphasize the importance of overcoming our resistance and accepting the world for what it is, exactly as it is. However, there are times when we don’t need to overcome our resistance, we need to fully inhabit our resistance. We can’t simply accept what is, we need to put ourselves on the line for what can and should be. How can we bring more mindfulness, skillfulness, and embodiment to our resistance, even while seeing everything as always-already perfect? And what is the role of violence in protest culture? Is some degree of violence necessary in order to create real social change? When is violence appropriate, when can it help your cause, and when can it only work against your cause? These are not easy questions to answer. Which is why Ryan and I wanted to talk with our good friend Justin Miles about all this. Justin stands in an extraordinary confluence of spiritual, political, and cultural lineages — he is an avid Integralist, a practicing Shambhala Buddhist, an active member of the Black Panther Party, a local community leader, the founder of a Black Power Meditation group in Baltimore, and a prolific hip hop artist. All of these divergent and sometimes conflicting influences have given Justin a unique full-spectrum perspective on the #BLM protests we see erupting all across the country. Watch as Justin shares his own views on this new wave of social resistance and gives voice to the incredible pain, trauma, and frustration that black Americans have been living with for generations. One important note — although we talk openly in this episode about the possible role(s) of violence in protest culture, in no way are we actually condoning violence. Attempting to understand violence — even asking whether some degree of violence might be necessary in order to overcome our social inertia and get the gears of social transformation moving — is very different from actually justifying violence. And of course there is a fairly wide spectrum of violence, from physical assault to property damage to resisting arrest to self-harm, not to mention the accumulated interior violence of discrimination, disenfranchisement, and dehumanization. All resistance is inherently violent, on some level — but how much violence is necessary in today’s resistance movements? This may very well be one of the best measures of just how functional and healthy a society is — how much violence is required in order to enact social change? — in which case, our hope is “as little as possible”.

Although there are many facets to this wonderful discussion, the central idea is that there are masculine and feminine expressions of Spirit, whose respective qualities are often referred to as consciousness and light, agency and communion, solar and lunar, Emptiness and Manifestation, Freedom and Fullness. Both the masculine and feminine types develop through three basic stages or levels. David refers to these three basic stages by many different names, including gross, subtle, and causal; preconventional, conventional, and postconventional; personal, interpersonal, and transpersonal; or simply body, mind, and spirit. Thus, there are masculine and feminine expressions of body, of mind, and of spirit. Further, there are healthy and unhealthy forms of the masculine and feminine at each of those three levels. As David articulately explains, there are ways to spot those pathological forms and experientially redress them, thus finding and fulfilling one’s deepest gift and potential. In part two of the discussion, David continues his fascinating account of the masculine and feminine faces of Spirit, with particular emphasis on the unhealthy or pathological forms of each—along with direct experiential ways to redress or correct those imbalances. The relation (and deep connection) of sexuality and spirituality is a topic strangely ignored by most spiritual teachers, which creates a lack or gap that desperately needs attention. David explores the ways in which traditional spiritual concerns can be integrated with the bodily existence of men and women in the here and now. The overall view is one of an integral approach that unites masculine and feminine in body, mind, and spirit. David and Ken also discuss David’s essay, “Ken Wilber is a Fraud,” which caused a huge ruckus when it was released. Believe us, you don’t want to miss this one.

The creator of some of the most transcendent art of our time explores why it is necessary to go beyond the faded postmodern milieu of today’s art world, how psychedelics can play a role in discovering and manifesting one’s deeper realms of being, and how the “two kinds of higher” can impact artists and their work. In the foreword to Alex’s book The Mission of Art, Ken stated: “Alex Grey might be the most significant artist alive.” At first glance, this can appear to be pure hyperbole, expressing the understandable enthusiasm of a long-time friend and colleague. However, with an Integral Approach, Ken explains, “significant” has a specific meaning, and it was this meaning alluded to in the foreword. “Significant” refers to the degree of depth of an occasion (how many levels of complexity does it contain?), and “fundamental” refers to the span or breadth of an occasion (how many of them are there?). Atoms, for example, are extremely fundamental to the universe—and have enormous span (there are zillions of them)—but they are not very significant (containing little complexity). Humans, on the other hand, are not very fundamental to the universe (e.g., there are far fewer of us than there are atoms), but we are uniquely significant (no other thing or organism in the known universe contains more levels of depth and complexity than a human). So, how is Alex Grey possibly the most significant artist alive? Looking at the territory we have covered so far, the answer is actually quite simple and elegant: Alex has explored and to various degrees mastered all five states of consciousness, and has grown to integral and transpersonal levels of development, the current leading edge of consciousness evolution. (In Ken’s book Integral Spirituality, these two axes are likewise called “the two axes of Enlightenment,” and no spiritual realization is complete without both.) Particularly when it comes to the forms of reality disclosed by non-ordinary, meditative, and peak states of consciousness, Alex is unparalleled in his ability to translate what he sees in his “eye of spirit” to a work of art, which then often has the extraordinary ability of evoking similar kinds of states in viewers.

Caroline Myss, one of the best known (and highly researched) medical intuitives, presents a fast, wild, rich, and rollicking narrative of her personal struggles with spiritual intuition and the dramatic growth and unfolding that often resulted. Caroline begins with a compelling account of how she came to a fundamental change in her own spiritual understanding and teaching: not that people need to learn how to be more intuitive, but that people are already abundantly intuitive but spend their time trying to deny it. “I am now beginning to believe the you are so intuitive, that‘s the source of your misery. You‘re so intuitive you‘re imploding, so you try to numb yourself to it instead of going with it. Every choice most people make is to block that level of timeless guidance.” Caroline then focuses on the unfolding of awareness from prepersonal to personal awareness to transpersonal, and, as a dramatic example of the latter, recounts here, for the first time in public in any detail, the ordeal of her own near-death experience. The nature of her realizations and the profound switch in her own teaching are recounted in a riveting tale… accompanied by unrelenting humor and a lightness of being that is simply infectious. Caroline and Ken go on to explore how the grace of Spirit motivates the teaching impulse, and how a genuine spiritual teacher often isn‘t interested in telling anyone what to do, but rather in sharing the insight that has blessed their lives, laced with a redeeming honesty. Caroline speaks of how, for her, the impulse to share truth is the manifestation of a kind of spiritual contract with God — one which may or may not fit in with your personal life plans: “I think that the nature of contracts is that they are meant to disappoint the ego but fill the soul. And therein lies the intensity of life, which is: this isn‘t what I asked for, but it is what I need.” With humor and unapologetic enthusiasm, Caroline touches on everything from the hell of unresolved resentment to the joy of renovating her newly acquired 1885 Victorian house. But through it all, Caroline and Ken keep pointing toward a recognition of the always-already free nature of our deepest Self, and away from the superficial light-and-love posturing common in the new-age community. We hope you enjoy this energetic and unabashed perspective on the trials of life, the glory of Spirit, and why a house can be as satisfying as a baked potato.