Disorder

As Trump’s trade war heats up and his anti-NATO rhetoric continues, America’s allies are having to face a new reality: the global superpower can no longer be relied upon. As core allies like the EU, UK and Canada recalibrate, what does that mean for America? And what does that mean for America’s traditional European allies who rely on the U.S. for their defence?  To discuss the future of NATO and Five Eyes, Jason is joined by longtime friend of the Pod, Kori Schake. She has lived her entire professional life advocating for the Transatlantic Alliance and American global leadership. She started her career as NATO desk officer at DoD under GHW Bush and is now Director of Foreign and Defense Policy Studies at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI).  Kori and Jason look at what might happen if America further withdraws from the world and abandons its traditional allies; what happens next in Ukraine; if Trump has a real peace plan; and how his cabinet members are acting like a megaphone rather than as genuine advisors. The duo look at scary scenerios: like what happens if the US tried to kick Canada out of the Five Eyes Intelligence sharing partnership and why Trump’s allies drive his policy choices towards the extremes.  Producer: George McDonagh Executive Producer: Neil Fearn  Pls Subscribe to our Substack and become a paid member to support us as we try to support NATO and Five Eyes - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/  Show Notes Links: Hear Kori previously on Episode 6 NATO: A Model for Ordering the Disorder? - https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/9472a8b7d262dd9fb0cd9827e8947964   Read Kori’s piece in The Atlantic - https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2025/02/intelligence-agencies-weakened/681711/   Check out her views on Signalgate: https://www.aei.org/foreign-and-defense-policy/the-wrong-signals-the-proper-role-of-a-defense-secretary/   And hear her on AEI’s ‘What the Hell’ Podcast talking US Defence policy: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/wth-a-european-supreme-allied-commander-of-nato/id1467993804?i=1000701043889   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The podcast dives deep into the diverging paths of the US and Europe on key issues like democracy, tariffs, and misinformation. Personal anecdotes bring the political landscape in Washington DC to life while examining trust in government. They discuss the potential rise of civil disobedience in the US and the influence of non-experts on policy. The intriguing contrasts in judicial accountability, particularly highlighted by the Le Pen case, add depth to the conversation. Can new leaders like Keir Starmer bring order to the ongoing global disorder?

Frank Vogl, a former foreign correspondent and co-founder of Transparency International, joins to discuss the rampant corruption during Trump's second term. He delves into the intersection of cryptocurrency and political malfeasance, exposing how Trump’s circle exploits crypto for personal gain. Vogl also highlights the dismantling of anti-corruption mechanisms, the rise of populism, and the troubling parallels with authoritarian regimes. He stresses the urgent need for grassroots movements and a global framework to combat transnational corruption.

In this discussion, Jamie MacColl, a Research Fellow in Cyber and Tech at RUSI, delves into the urgent threat of ransomware, particularly from hostile states like Russia. He highlights alarming incidents, such as attacks on critical infrastructure and the chaotic implications for society. Jamie reveals the evolving landscape of cybercrime, the motivations behind cybercriminals, and the gaping gaps in our defense strategies. The conversation emphasizes the need for innovative approaches and greater accountability to combat this growing menace effectively.

Join Sir Bill Browder, a renowned investor and author known for his work on corruption, and Stephanie Baker, an award-winning journalist and expert on the economic war against Russia. They engage in a spirited discussion about the potential role of sanctions and the West's response to Putin's aggression. The conversation dives into whether frozen Russian assets could support Ukraine's defense and examines the complexities of U.S. foreign policy and European leadership dynamics. Listener questions bring intriguing insights into the future of the conflict and the effectiveness of sanctions.

In this engaging conversation, Julia Ebner, an expert on extremist infiltration and author of "Going Mainstream," dives deep into the rise of extreme ideas in mainstream discourse. She explores the Overton Window's role in shifting political narratives and the profound impact of conspiracy theories on public health and policy. Julia shares insights from her undercover work in online subcultures like the incel community, revealing how loneliness fuels extremism. She emphasizes the necessity of defending expertise and proposes innovative solutions to combat the spread of misinformation.

In this engaging discussion, Julia Ebner, an award-winning author and expert on extremist infiltration, unpacks the rise of conspiracy theories in modern politics. She delves into the psychological factors that attract individuals to extremist ideologies, especially during the Trump era. The conversation highlights how these conspiracy narratives unite diverse groups and funnel collective grievances. Ebner also explores the transformation of extremist rhetoric and the strategic use of myths to mask radical intentions, making it challenging to counter these beliefs in today's society.

In this special episode of Disorder, you can hear some of the highlights from our first ever live show event at RUSI. To start things off, Jason Pack was joined on stage by his fellow co-hosts, Alex Hall Hall, Jane Kinninmont and Arthur Snell. The panel discussed how they experience Disorder in their own lives, as well as what they perceive makes this historic period novel.   Then, Jane and Alex departed the stage, while Arthur and Jason were joined by Neil Melvin, RUSI’s Director of International Security. The trio investigated if Trump actually has a grand strategy and is deliberately accelerating the long durée US pivot to Asia or if he is merely a strategic-less deliberate Disorderer. Then the trio looked at the role Europe plays in global security, while Neil and Jason had an agreeable -- and not even staged -- disagreement about the ideal position the UK can play in global security  – should the UK continue cozying up to the US? Or seek to counterbalance it by forging new relationships and convening a coalition of orderers?  Lastly, the recording ends with a Lord of the Rings-themed question from a Mega-Ordering audience member.  If you would like to hear the rest of the audience questions and have access to the full recording, please join the pay for substack.  Producer: George McDonagh Executive Producer: Neil Fearn  Subscribe to our Substack (paid members can listen to the whole unedited event including listener q and a): https://natoandtheged.substack.com/  Show Notes Links: More on the RUSI Disorder partnership - https://www.rusi.org/news-and-comment/rusi-news/rusi-announces-partnership-disorder-podcast   Become RUSI members for more of their brilliant content:  https://my.rusi.org/membership.html   And From Neil Melvin Read:  Europe's attitude to Trump is dangerously naive. He demands action, not words: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/21/europes-attitude-trump-dangerously-naive-he-demands-action/   And for more on Neil’s bio: https://www.rusi.org/people/melvin  Read Jane’s piece about OSCE’s potential role - https://europeanleadershipnetwork.org/commentary/its-time-to-use-the-osce/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

George Monbiot, a Guardian columnist and environmental activist, dives deep into the shadowy world of neoliberalism in this thought-provoking discussion. He analyzes how it has commodified public services, leading to a powerful oligarchy while undermining democracy. Monbiot critiques centrist politicians’ failures to propose viable alternatives and explores the psychological motivations behind the extreme wealth of today’s billionaires. The conversation calls for unity among the working and middle classes to confront these challenges and strive for a fairer society.

When it comes to Russia, Trump’s America appears on the verge of a major foreign policy U-turn. A couple of weeks ago, Trump called Zelenskyy a dictator and lyingly claimed that Ukraine had started the war. Then there was the February 28 ‘Oval Office Ambush’ heard round the world. Don’t forget that after years of isolating and sanctioning Russia over its invasion of Ukraine, Team Trump met face to face with the Russian Foreign Minister in Saudi and now appears ready to do direct business with Russia and to be actively seeking to humiliate the Ukrainians. Despite these worrying moves, at the moment, the U-turn remains hypothetical… all words, not yet binding actions. So… how seriously should we take this perspective shift? Does the ‘Vance/Trump Oval Office Ambush’ change everything? And what are the implications for Europe and its allies if America actually switches sides to support Russia long term? To discuss this perilous moment, we’re joined again by Sir Bill Browder, a successful investor, a globally acclaimed author, and a famous philanthropist/humanitarian advocate. Browder’s tireless advocacy for holding dictators and their henchman to account is widely known. He was a guest on the Disorder programme in Ep 26, a few days after his friend Alexei Navalny was murdered by Putin. [NB: the interview at the core of this episode was recorded on Feb 26 before the Oval Office Trump/Zelenskyy/Vance meeting.]   Today, Jason and Sir Bill discuss the transactional nature of Trump 2.0 and the seek to work out whether the recently announced Ukraine mineral deal actually amounts to a hill of beans. Browder emphasizes the unpredictability of the situation, the moral implications of Trump’s proposed U-turn. Finally: as they Order the Disorder, Bill and Jason discuss the practicalities of how to turn confiscate currently frozen Russian assets and use them to fund Ukrainian defence. Producer: George McDonaghExecutive Producer: Neil Fearn Subscribe to our Substack (for free, or get the PAID version to attend our March 11th event at RUSI): https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Show Notes Links: Jason’s substack on the the Oval Office Trump/Vance ambush of Zelenskyy: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/p/he-may-not-be-a-russian-agent-but For a podcast produced out of Kyiv and dedicated just to the War in Ukraine: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/history-in-the-making-the-war-in-ukraine/id1752915858 Watch Bloomberg Editor Javier Blas on the fact that Ukraine doesn’t have any significant rare earths: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=nqJ6Vgetyn8&t=23s&fbclid=IwY2xjawIuZ8ZleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHfHqQQ2oA1u0f9dwlY57utRKDAlMk3uustcJ_QaiEBTeO2Duhzu5d1guUA_aem_CogDpEa6G7WcwC-7R5q6DQ Read the FT explainer of the US-Ukraine Mineral deal: https://www.ft.com/content/1890d104-1395-4393-a71d-d299aed448e6 Listen to our previous episode with Sir Bill Browder: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/a36160dede2b990a59c34c3c4e8eeece  Read Sir Bill’s piece calling for Russian asset seizure:https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-14418689/UK-Europe-Russia-frozen-billions-Ukraine-noble-cause.html And his article co-authored with a leading Ukranian lawyer, Yulia Ziskina calling for seizure of Russia’s state assets: https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2024-11-22/if-trump-cuts-ukraine-aid-the-west-should-seize-russian-assets Watch United States has ‘abandoned Ukraine’ | Bill Browder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImN1fFJKHIc For more on illicit funds and foreign interference, listen to our recent episode with Peter Geoghegan: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/a7b4de27e0e05e297d97a505357d7050 Part 1 & 2 with Tom Burgis on the issue of UK’s permissiveness over foreign political financing https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/e003625c25e8ce63dda398369bfea54b / https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/2ccf0f088b7679b5b053679466f6a42d Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices