Poets & Thinkers

What if the people building AI are so caught up in the rush to market that they’ve forgotten to ask the most important question: what does this mean for humanity? In this refreshingly honest episode, we explore the human side of artificial intelligence with Danielle McClune, a writer and poet who has spent the last years at the epicenter of AI development at Microsoft, training conversational models and crafting the prompts that shape how AI communicates with millions of users worldwide.Danielle takes us behind the scenes of AI development with a perspective that’s rare in the tech industry – one grounded in creative writing, poetry, and a deep concern for preserving our humanity in an increasingly automated world. From her Substack “Soft Coded” writing that challenges the industry’s relentless optimism to her daily work training models to sound human while remembering they’re not, Danielle offers a critical yet nuanced view of where AI is headed and what we might be losing along the way.Throughout our conversation, Danielle reveals the absurdity of charging users for saying “please” and “thank you” to AI while encouraging human-like interaction, questions why we’re bolting chat interfaces onto existing software instead of reimagining human-computer interaction, and argues for maintaining the “uncanny valley” as a crucial reminder that we’re not talking to someone with a childhood. Her vision for AI as a public utility and her insights into what the technology might look like if women had led its development offer provocative alternatives to the current Silicon Valley narrative.In this conversation, we explore:Why saying “please” and “thank you” to AI reveals deeper contradictions in how we’re building the technologyThe rush to add chat interfaces to everything instead of reimagining user experiences from scratchWhy the uncanny valley might be a feature, not a bug, in human-AI interactionHow “vibe checks” and human intuition remain essential in evaluating AI outputThe case for treating AI as a public utility rather than private corporate propertyWhy training AI models feels like “raising a toddler” and often becomes “women’s work”This episode is an invitation to slow down, ask harder questions, and remember that behind every AI interaction is a human being whose life might be changed – for better or worse – by the choices we make today.Resources MentionedSoft Coded is Danielle’s excellent SubstackRuined by Design – Mike Monteiro’s bookDesign for the Real World – Victor PapanekConnect with DanielleLinkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielle-mcclune-2b35b95b/Substack: https://softcoded.substack.com/BioDanielle McClune is a writer and poet embedded in the frontier of AI development at Microsoft, where she has spent the last two years training conversational models and Send us a textGet in touch: ben@poetsandthinkers.co Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/Subscribe to Poets & Thinkers on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/poets-thinkers/id1799627484Subscribe to Poets & Thinkers on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4N4jnNEJraemvlHIyUZdww?si=2195345fa6d249fd

Humans are multisensory beings. What if the tiny sounds you hear from your devices every day are literally vibrating through your body, changing your nervous system, and collectively creating decades of audio pollution? And what do we do about it in an age where generative AI is likely going to add even more noise? In this fascinating episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the profound intersection of sound, technology, and human experience with Matthew Bennett, a composer, sound artist, and sensory designer who led sound design at Microsoft for 12 years. From his home studio in Seattle, Matthew reveals how he shaped the sonic experience of billions of people worldwide while pioneering a new paradigm for technology sound design.Matthew takes us on a journey through the science of sound as sensory experience – not just something we hear, but a form of touch that vibrates our entire body and changes our physiology. He shares mind-blowing insights about how Microsoft’s tiny notification sounds, when multiplied across hundreds of millions of users, created decades of sound pollution daily – and how his team cut 10 years off that global audio footprint by shortening sounds by just one second. Through the lens of neuroaesthetics and multisensory design, Matthew illustrates why our digital experiences are always multisensory whether we intend them to be or not.Throughout our conversation, Matthew challenges the current AI music generation hype, revealing how these tools expose the formulaic nature of popular music while lacking the human intention and authenticity that gives art its soul. He advocates for a “do no harm” approach to sound design, emphasizing the importance of designing silence and understanding that unexpected sounds can hijack our brains and trigger fight-or-flight responses. His vision for Musical Sensory Environments and precision therapies offers a glimpse into how sound can heal rather than harm.In this discussion, we explore:Why sound is actually a special form of touch that vibrates through your entire bodyHow tiny notification sounds create decades of global audio pollution dailyThe ethics of multisensory design and the responsibility that comes with scaleWhy AI-generated music reveals the formulaic nature of popular genresHow neuroesthetics can become essential literacy for designers and leadersThe difference between human intention and statistical pattern matching in creativityThis episode is an invitation to understand sound as a powerful force that shapes our digital ecosystems, our physical well-being, and our human connections – and to approach the creation of sensory experiences with the care and intention they deserve.Resources MentionedJaron Lanier’ workWorld Health Organization (WHO) research on noise pollution as global health crisisNeuroaesthetics research and fMRI studies on brain responses to soundMusical Sensory Environments – Matthew’s pioneering approach to immersive audioConnect with Matthew Bennett:Website: https://soundandsensory.com/Send us a textGet in touch: ben@poetsandthinkers.co Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/Subscribe to Poets & Thinkers on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/poets-thinkers/id1799627484Subscribe to Poets & Thinkers on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4N4jnNEJraemvlHIyUZdww?si=2195345fa6d249fd

Pascal Unger, managing partner at Miami’s Focal, offers a fresh perspective on the changing venture capital landscape shaped by AI advancements. He discusses how intelligent software is revolutionizing workflows, leading to unprecedented market opportunities. Pascal emphasizes the need for new skills in founders, like emotional stability and quick execution. He also explores cultural differences between US and European VCs and argues that smaller teams can now achieve more, fundamentally reshaping the VC model.

What if the very technology that promises to make us more efficient is actually creating “soul gaps” – spaces where human understanding and meaning simply cannot be replicated? In this deeply insightful episode of Poets and Thinkers, we explore the future of humanistic leadership with Michael Ventura, founder of SubRosa, author of “Applied Empathy,” and a fascinating polymath who bridges brand strategy, alternative medicine, and human development. From his practice at Esalen Institute to co-founding a pet food company with Chrissy Teigen and John Legend, Michael brings a unique perspective on how empathy serves as the new language of leadership.Michael takes us on a journey through what empathy really means – distinguishing it from sympathy and compassion – and why it's become critical for leaders navigating increasingly diverse, multi-generational workforces. He shares compelling insights about how AI can replicate the technical aspects of creativity but misses the essential human elements, like where to place the divine spark of light in a Renaissance painting. Through examples ranging from political manipulation to Meta’s disturbing targeting of insecure teenagers, Michael reveals both the light and dark sides of applied empathy.Throughout our conversation, Michael challenges us to slow down in a world obsessed with speed, arguing that patience – not just efficiency – should be a core leadership skill. He envisions a future where leaders move from having all the answers to asking all the right questions, creating space for diverse perspectives and collective intelligence. And we’ll even get a little teaser for Michael’s upcoming book on “constellation thinking” which promises to revolutionize how we understand purpose in our complex, multi-faceted modern lives.In this discussion, we explore:Why empathy is not about being nice – it's about understanding without conversionHow AI creates “soul gaps” where human meaning and divine sparks cannot be replicatedThe difference between cognitive empathy used for manipulation versus authentic connectionWhy leaders must transition from answer-givers to question-askersHow patience becomes a revolutionary skill in our hyperconnected worldThe loss of shared cultural moments and emotional commons in our fragmented media landscapeThis episode is an invitation to reclaim the deeply human skills that technology cannot replicate, and to use empathy not as weakness but as a strategic advantage in building more connected, innovative organizations.Resources MentionedApplied Empathy: The New Language of Leadership by Michael Ventura“The Dark Side of Empathy” - Michael’s New York Times op-ed“America's Uncontacted Tribes” article by Michael VenturaCenter for Humane Technology - led by Tristan HarrisKismet – pet food company Michael co-founded with Chrissy Teigen and John Legend Connect with Michael Ventura:Website: Send us a textGet in touch: ben@poetsandthinkers.co Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/Subscribe to Poets & Thinkers on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/poets-thinkers/id1799627484Subscribe to Poets & Thinkers on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4N4jnNEJraemvlHIyUZdww?si=2195345fa6d249fd

What if the discomfort leaders feel right now, at the beginning of the AI age, isn’t a problem to solve, but the exact place where transformation happens? In this episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the future of organizational leadership and human potential with Meg Bear, a seasoned tech executive turned “future inventor” who brings a unique perspective as a fifth-generation Bay Area native and first-generation college graduate. From her advisory work with CEOs and boards to her mission of creating abundant futures that value our shared humanity, Meg offers a compelling vision for navigating unprecedented change.Meg takes us on a journey through her unconventional life and career path – from engineering leadership at Oracle and president of SAP’s HCM (Human Capital Management) business to her current work helping organizations harness human ingenuity. She reveals why the traditional business leadership playbook – built on certainty and past experience – is not only obsolete but counterproductive in our current moment. Drawing from her background as a cultural outsider who learned to navigate different worlds, Meg explains how the skills of adaptation and cross-cultural communication that immigrants develop are exactly what all leaders need now.Throughout our conversation, Meg challenges the narrative that change is simply happening to us, instead advocating for agency in shaping the future we want to live in. She argues that we’re at a unique moment where discomfort is hitting “all layers of the stack” – from the board room and the c-suite to the ICs – and that this discomfort is not only natural but necessary for growth. Her vision for leadership emphasizes curiosity over certainty, collective intelligence over individual expertise, and the courage to embrace vulnerability as a pathway to learning.In this transformative discussion, we explore:Why the space between what you can’t control and what you can impact is bigger than you thinkHow traditional business leadership models based on certainty are failing in uncertain timesWhy emotions are data that reveal deeper fears about changing definitions of competenceThe need for psychologically safe spaces where experienced leaders can express confusionHow untapped human ingenuity could be unlocked through more inclusive value creation in organizations of the futureWhy our “messy bits” are actually our greatest sources of strength and adaptabilityThis episode is an invitation for leaders to move beyond fear-based reactions to inevitable change, and instead embrace the agency we have to invent futures that serve our shared humanity.Resources MentionedReid Hoffman on GenAI as the cognitive industrial revolution: https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/mckinsey-digital/our-insights/gen-ai-a-cognitive-industrial-revolutionThe myth of exponential hypergrowth: https://longform.asmartbear.com/exponential-growth/Inventing the future: https://www.megbear.com/post/inventing-the-futureMeg’s 2025 word of the year: https://www.megbear.com/posSend us a textGet in touch: ben@poetsandthinkers.co Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/Subscribe to Poets & Thinkers on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/poets-thinkers/id1799627484Subscribe to Poets & Thinkers on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4N4jnNEJraemvlHIyUZdww?si=2195345fa6d249fd

What if the struggle and friction in the creative process is actually what makes art meaningful – and what we’re at risk of losing in our rush toward AI efficiency? In this deeply reflective episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the intersection of human creativity and artificial intelligence with Nando Costa, a renowned designer and artist who has been at the very forefront of Generative AI (GenAI) and whose work has shaped the visual identity of major tech companies including Microsoft, Google, and ServiceNow. From his home studio on Bainbridge Island, Nando shares his journey from early GenAI experimentation to a deeper understanding of what makes creativity authentically human.Nando takes us through his extensive exploration of generative AI, having created over 25,000 pieces using these tools, only to discover their addictive, slot-machine-like qualities and ultimate lack of artistic depth. He reveals how this experience led him to champion “slow photography,” deliberate creative processes, and the irreplaceable value of human intention in artistic work. Through compelling examples – from photographers camping for days to capture the perfect shot to his daughter’s (who’s also an artist) immediate rejection of AI-generated art – Nando illustrates why the time, energy, and personal investment we put into creating something directly correlates to its impact on others.Throughout our conversation, Nando challenges the dominant narrative that speed and optimization should drive creative work, instead advocating for depth over speed and originality over optimization. His insights on brand work, creative leadership, and the future of design offer a compelling counter-narrative to the “AI will replace everything” mentality, showing how human creativity becomes more precious – not less – in an automated world.In this thought-provoking discussion, we explore:Why generative AI feels addictive but ultimately lacks the depth of human-created artHow the time and energy invested in creation directly impacts the meaning of the workWhy Gen Z is gravitating toward analog processes like film photography and vinyl recordsThe importance of “slow” and deliberate creative processes in maintaining authenticityHow friction in the creative act isn’t a bug to be fixed, but a feature to be embracedWhat the future of brand work looks like when anyone can generate content instantlyThis episode is an invitation to reconsider our relationship with creative tools and the creative act itself, to value the human struggle that gives art its meaning, and to champion depth and originality in an age of optimization.Resources MentionedBook: Slow ProductivityTheo Jansen’s wind-powered beach sculpturesSomeForm Studio example of curated AI automation in designSend us a textGet in touch: ben@poetsandthinkers.co Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/Subscribe to Poets & Thinkers on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/poets-thinkers/id1799627484Subscribe to Poets & Thinkers on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4N4jnNEJraemvlHIyUZdww?si=2195345fa6d249fd

Digitalization promised us a brave “new work” world. But instead we ended up with more meetings and “fake work”. What’s next and how do we transform our obsession with productivity tools and endless meetings into meaningful work and real innovation? In this episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the future of work with Markus Albers, a Berlin-based journalist, author, and entrepreneur whose insights have consistently anticipated major shifts in how we work. From his prescient 2008 book predicting remote work to his latest exploration of “the optimization lie,” Markus reveals how our relationship with work has evolved – and why the promised freedom of digital tools has instead chained us to our screens.Markus takes us on a journey through the changing landscape of work, explaining how the initial promise of technology to free us from our desks has instead created an “always on” culture where work seeps into every aspect of our lives. He shares alarming research showing knowledge workers now spend 60% of their time in meetings and collaboration rather than doing creative work – and how this leads to widespread dissatisfaction and disengagement. And the effects on innovation in businesses around the world are fatal. Yet through his research with companies like Bayer, he also uncovers promising models for a more fluid, fulfilling future of work powered by AI and skill-based platforms.Throughout our conversation, Markus challenges conventional management approaches that prioritize control over creation, arguing that leaders need to rediscover their own creative capacities and build organizations where people can actually finish their days feeling they’ve accomplished something meaningful. His vision for the future of work emphasizes fluidity, cross-organizational collaboration, and technology that serves human needs rather than extracting maximum productivity.In this inspiring discussion, we explore:Why the initial promise of technology to make us more productive and happier hasn’t materializedHow managers’ fear of losing control has led to calendar overload and measurement obsessionThe identity crisis facing managers as AI threatens to replace routine workWhat organizations like Bayer are doing to create more fluid, skill-based work modelsHow leaders can fight for freedom from constant work in an AI-powered futureThis episode is an invitation to reimagine our relationship with work—to move beyond optimization for its own sake and create environments where people can truly create, ship, and find fulfillment.Topics02:30 - Markus’s journey from journalist to author and entrepreneur 04:00 - The Meconomy book and its early vision of the digital revolution 07:30 - The evolution of the "future of work" from liberation to digital exhaustion 09:10 - How we freed ourselves from desk chains but chained ourselves to screens instead 11:30 - Leaders’ fear of losing control in hybrid work environments 12:30 - The need to rediscover our capacity to create and ship meaningful work 14:30 - Microsoft research showing knowledge workers spend 60% of time on collaboration 16:00 - The leadership challenge of reconfiguring how work is done 17:00 - The importance of asynchronous communication skills for leaders 18:40 - The growing debate about “bullshit jobs” and management bureaucracySend us a textGet in touch: ben@poetsandthinkers.co Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/Subscribe to Poets & Thinkers on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/poets-thinkers/id1799627484Subscribe to Poets & Thinkers on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4N4jnNEJraemvlHIyUZdww?si=2195345fa6d249fd

What if the key to navigating our AI-driven future isn’t about becoming more technological, but rather more authentically human? In this inspiring episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the intersection of technology, leadership, and human dignity with Frances West, a pioneering executive whose wisdom spans decades of technological transformation. As IBM’s first-ever Chief Accessibility Officer and a global advocate for digital inclusion, Frances brings a unique perspective on how to harness AI’s potential while keeping humanity at the center.Frances takes us on a journey through her remarkable career, from arriving in America at age 19 to becoming a trailblazing technology executive who helped shape IBM’s approach to human-centered innovation. Drawing on insights from her book “Authentic Inclusion™ Drives Disruptive Innovation,” she reveals why the skills we’ve traditionally considered “soft” – creativity, empathy, persistence, and ethical judgment – will become our most valuable assets in an AI-driven world.Throughout our conversation, Frances challenges the dominant narratives around AI, arguing that as artificial intelligence becomes more advanced, humans must embrace and cultivate the qualities that make us uniquely human. She offers a compelling vision for business leadership that balances profit with principle and purpose, emphasizing that true innovation must be rooted in meeting authentic human needs rather than merely advancing technology for its own sake.In this thought-provoking discussion, we explore:Why “human first” thinking is crucial for ethical technology developmentHow digital inclusion benefits everyone, not just those with disabilitiesThe leadership traits essential for navigating our AI-integrated futureWhy “popcorn innovation” fails where disciplined vision succeedsThe balance between maintaining our authentic selves while embracing AI toolsThis episode is an invitation to reimagine our relationship with technology through a lens of authentic inclusion, challenging us to develop the leadership qualities that will help humanity thrive alongside artificial intelligence.Topics00:30 - Introduction to Frances West and her career at IBM 03:30 - The concept of “human first” in technology development 06:00 - Balancing AI advancement with human dignity and agency 13:30 - The importance of building inclusive technology from the start 17:40 - How technology has evolved from mainframes to personalized devices 21:10 - The human qualities AI cannot easily replicate 27:10 - "As AI gets more human, humans need to get more human" 30:40 - Balancing foundational skills with creativity in education 34:00 - The evolution of leadership skills needed for an AI-integrated world 36:00 - The Four L’s of leadership: Listen, Learn, Lived experience, Lead 41:30 - Avoiding "popcorn innovation" with disciplined vision and execution 45:30 - How sales experience grounds technological innovation 50:40 - Frances’s vision for the future of business leadership 52:00 - The Five C’s for future leaders: Confidence, Conviction, Communication, Curiosity, and CourageResources MentionedAuthentic Inclusion™ Drives Disruptive Innovation by Frances WesSend us a textGet in touch: ben@poetsandthinkers.co Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/Subscribe to Poets & Thinkers on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/poets-thinkers/id1799627484Subscribe to Poets & Thinkers on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4N4jnNEJraemvlHIyUZdww?si=2195345fa6d249fd

In this enlightening discussion, John Danner, a business advisor and professor, delves into the pivotal role of failure in fostering innovation and leadership. He argues that avoiding failure stifles creativity and highlights the staggering statistic that only 20% of employees feel engaged at work. Danner also emphasizes the need for human-centered leadership in the age of AI, advocating for a culture that values experimentation and inclusivity. He challenges conventional business models, stressing that true progress requires embracing risk and nurturing human ingenuity.

What if the very technology that distracts us could be transformed into a mirror reflecting our deepest human connections? In this fascinating episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the intersection of tradition, technology, and mindfulness with Berlin-based artist and designer Hojin Kang. Born to Korean parents in Germany, Hojin creates art that brilliantly juxtaposes ancient spiritual practices with our modern digital behaviors, revealing striking parallels that challenge how we engage with the world around us.Hojin takes us on a journey through his artistic evolution, from his early influences in both Korean Buddhist traditions and cutting-edge technology to his current work exploring human connection through thermal imaging. His provocative installations –from scrolling behaviors reimagined as prayer beads and notification bell sculptures that trigger visceral responses, to thermal imagining cameras in art and border surveillance  – expose the tension between our mindless digital habits and the mindful traditions they inadvertently mimic.Throughout our conversation, Hojin reveals how his dual perspective as both artist and designer shapes his creative process, embracing curiosity and emotion while maintaining craftsmanship and quality. As we navigate an increasingly AI-driven world, his insights on maintaining human connection and embodied experiences offer a compelling vision for how we might engage with technology without losing our essential humanity.In this thought-provoking discussion, we explore:How scrolling behaviors mirror ancient meditation practices while serving opposite purposesThe physiological conditioning created by notification sounds and their artistic reimaginingWhy maintaining the mind-body connection is crucial in an increasingly digital worldHow thermal imaging can reveal the warmth that transcends physical and cultural differencesThe balance between artistic curiosity and design discipline in creative workThis episode is an invitation to pause and reconsider our relationship with technology, to find spaces for mindfulness in our digital lives, and to recognize the human warmth that binds us despite our superficial differences.Topics00:30 - Introduction to Hojin Kang and his background 03:30 - Drawing inspiration from tradition and technology 06:50 - The parallel between prayer beads and social media scrolling 10:00 - The notification bell sculpture and our conditioned responses 15:00 - Technology's impact on our emotional and physiological states 18:40 - Art as observation rather than providing solutions 22:50 - Using technology as a tool while maintaining emancipation from it 28:00 - Cultivating curiosity about humanity above technology 33:00 - The importance of embodied experiences and physical creation 35:00 - "The Warmth That Binds Us" thermal imaging art project 41:20 - How thermal imagery removes visual markers of difference 44:00 - Balancing artistic expression with design discipline 49:20 - The importance of intrinsic motivation in creating meaningful workResources MentionedPlease Wait (Digital Installation): https://www.hojinkang.com/please_wait/Scrolling Prayer Beads (Sculpture): Send us a textGet in touch: ben@poetsandthinkers.co Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/Subscribe to Poets & Thinkers on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/poets-thinkers/id1799627484Subscribe to Poets & Thinkers on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4N4jnNEJraemvlHIyUZdww?si=2195345fa6d249fd