Trinity Forum Conversations

The Burden of Living and the Goodness of God with Alan NobleWe don’t often talk about the courage required to face ordinary life. Such common human challenges as sorrow, despair, anxiety, and mental illness may cause us to experience life more as a burden than a gift. For many, this struggle is a constant one.In his new book, On Getting Out of Bed: The Burden & Gift of Living, author and professor Alan Noble considers the challenges that face each one of us every morning. He concludes that the simple decision to engage with the world each day constitutes a declaration of the goodness of God.“One of the things I want to remind people of is that actually just by choosing to go through the basic motions of life, you are affirming to other people that this life is good.“And just putting your feet on the ground and getting up despite the suffering you might be experiencing, communicates to other people that this life is worth living even when you are suffering. And that's a powerful witness.”Bearing witness and Carrying Each OtherAs Alan so eloquently makes the case, our call to faithfulness is not a solo journey. When we persevere despite our suffering, we communicate that God’s creation is good, and it’s an encouragement to others. It's by carrying and being carried by others that the pilgrim can make it home.“Now, there may come times when you are required by your suffering to radically depend upon others to carry you out of bed. My advice is to embrace those moments, knowing that you'll carry your neighbor in return when the time comes.”We hope you’ll enjoy this conversation and share it with your community.This podcast is an edited version of an Online Conversation with Alan recorded in April of 2023. You can access the full conversation with transcript here. Learn more about Alan Noble.Authors and books mentioned in the conversation:On Getting Out of Bed: The Burden & Gift of Living, by Alan NobleDisruptive Witness: Speaking Truth in a Distracted Age, by Alan NobleYou Are Not Your Own: Belonging to God in an Inhuman World, by Alan NobleJacques EllulThe Soul of Shame: Retelling the Stories We Believe About Ourselves, by Curt ThompsonRelated Trinity Forum Readings:On Happiness, by Thomas AquinasOn Friendship, by CiceroMan’s Search for Meaning, by Viktor FranklAugustine’s ConfessionsThe Long Loneliness, by Dorothy DayWrestling with God, by Simone WeilTale of Two Cities, by Charles DickensRelated Conversations:Strength in the Second Half with Arthur BrooksCultivating a Life of Learning with Zena HitzBeing, Living, and Dying Well with Lydia DugdaleBlessings for Imperfect Days with Kate BowlerThe Burden of Living and the and the Goodness of God with Alan NobleAll the Lonely People with Ryan Streeter and Francie BroghammerTo listen to this or any of our episodes in full, visit ttf.org/podcast and to join the Trinity Forum Society and help make content like this possible, join the Trinity Forum SocietySpecial thanks to Ned Bustard for our podcast artwork.

The Blessing of Imperfect Days with Kate BowlerIt’s easy to be caught in the trap of perfectionism, especially when those around us seem to have it all together. But we can find ourselves alone and discouraged when things don’t go as we’ve planned, and the lives we actually have fail to resemble those we’d hoped to lead.In her recently released book The Lives We Actually Lead, New York Times best-selling author and Duke University professor Kate Bowler (along with co-author Jessica Richie) offer a collection of blessings that center gratitude and hope while acknowledging the reality of our often messy and frantic everyday lives. They show how embracing our limitations and vulnerabilities, as well as those of others, can open new possibilities for healing, hope, and community.Finitude, Gratitude, and Being of HelpIn this conversation, Kate shares about her work detailing the Prosperity Gospel movement from an academic standpoint, and how her own setbacks and health catastrophe in a cancer diagnosis both deepened her sense of being loved by God and softened her toward those desperate for a miracle.Kate and Cherie's conversation goes through deep waters, but does so with much humor and heart. We hope you'll listen and share it with your friends and loved ones.This podcast is an edited version of an Evening Conversation with Kate recorded in February of 2023. You can access the full conversation with transcript here. Learn more about Kate Bowler.Authors and books mentioned in the conversation:Blessed: A History of the American Prosperity Gospel, by Kate BowlerThe Preacher's Wife: The Precarious Power of Evangelical Women Celebrities, by Kate BowlerEverything Happens For a Reason: And Other Lies I've Loved, by Kate BowlerNo Cure for Being Human: (And Other Truths I Need to Hear), by Kate BowlerThe Lives We Actually Have: A Hundred Blessings for Imperfect Days, by Kate Bowler and Jessica RichieSenecaJoel OsteenOprahJoanna GainesRev. Dr. Stephen B. ChapmanWendell BerryRelated Trinity Forum Readings:On Happiness, by Thomas AquinasOn Friendship, by CiceroMan’s Search for Meaning, by Viktor FranklAugustine’s ConfessionsThe Long Loneliness, by Dorothy DayWrestling with God, by Simone WeilTale of Two Cities, by Charles DickensRelated Conversations:Strength in the Second Half with Arthur BrooksCultivating a Life of Learning with Zena HitzBeing, Living, and Dying Well with Lydia DugdaleHope, Heartbreak, and Meaning with Kate BowlerThe Burden of Living and the and the Goodness of God with Alan NobleAll the Lonely People with Ryan Streeter and Francie BroghammerTo listen to this or any of our episodes in full, visit ttf.org/podcast and to join the Trinity Forum Society and help make content like this possible, join the Trinity Forum SocietySpecial thanks to Ned Bustard for our podcast artwork.

Being, Living, and Dying Well with Lydia DugdaleIn the wake of the Black Plague of the middle ages, people cried out for help to die well. What developed over the ensuing centuries was a work called the Ars Moriendi, a book designed to help Christians die well. In the midst of the global COVID-19 pandemic in 2021 we were joined by professor and physician Lydia Dugdale to discuss her book The Lost Art of Dying Well which explores the wisdom of the Ars Moriendi:“The Christian theology about death is one of paradox in many ways. Death is overcome. That is what Christians celebrate on Easter Sunday. But death still has a sting. It still is bitter. It hurts, it rips, a hole in the fabric of our lives. And so we hold in tension this idea that death has this sting, but also is ultimately overcome. So we don't need to accept death, but we need to start by acknowledging finitude.”Acknowledging our Finitude and Call for CommunityOver the course of our conversation, Lydia explains how acknowledging our finitude and investing in our community are the two crucial first steps in preparing to die well. And these steps in preparation for a good death ultimately help us to live well too.We trust you’ll find much to think about and wrestle with in this conversation, and we hope it inspires you to live wisely and well today.This podcast is an edited version of an Online Conversation with Lydia recorded on Good Friday in April of 2021. You can access the full conversation with transcript here.Learn more about Lydia Dugdale.Authors and books mentioned in the conversation:The Lost Art of Dying: Reviving Forgotten Wisdom, by Lydia DugdaleThis Republic of Suffering: Death and the American Civil War,  by Drew Gilpin FaustPhilippe ArièsA Tale of Two Cities, by Charles DickensThe Christian Art of Dying: Learning from Jesus, by Allen VerheyRelated Trinity Forum Readings:On Happiness, by Thomas AquinasOn Friendship, by CiceroMan’s Search for Meaning, by Viktor FranklAugustine’s ConfessionsThe Long Loneliness, by Dorothy DayWrestling with God, by Simone WeilTale of Two Cities, by Charles DickensRelated Conversations:Strength in the Second Half with Arthur BrooksCultivating a Life of Learning with Zena HitzBeing, Living, and Dying Well with Lydia DugdaleHope, Heartbreak, and Meaning with Kate BowlerThe Burden of Living and the and the Goodness of God with Alan NobleAll the Lonely People with Ryan Streeter and Francie BroghammerTo listen to this or any of our episodes in full, visit ttf.org/podcast and to join the Trinity Forum Society and help make content like this possible, join the Trinity Forum SocietySpecial thanks to Ned Bustard for our podcast artwork.

Cultivating a Life of Learning with Zena Hitz How can we cultivate the habits and discipline required for a life of learning, especially in an age of distraction? And is such a life really worth it?Zena Hitz is a humanities scholar and author of Lost in Thought: The Hidden Pleasures of an Intellectual Life, and she joins our podcast to argue that few experiences are as formative and fulfilling as the cultivation of a rich inner life of learning and contemplation:“Virtually any intellectual activity, any piece of thinking or contemplation involves others. Even just sitting reading a book, there's an author that wrote that book and there are characters within the book that the author is sharing with you. And a lot of what I think we do and in a great books education is you encounter the minds of these authors and…even if they're long dead you see something about who they were and what they saw. So there's a human connection at the bottom of it.”Learning in Community, and the need for PerseveranceZena argues that learning is worth doing for its own sake, as something intrinsically valuable, reflective of, and fortifying to our dignity as human beings and a vital part of the good life. And when we find our energy flagging or our motives for learning to be mixed, community and perseverance are the necessary prescription for deepening and sustaining our intellectual lives.Our podcast is an edited version of an Online Conversation with Zena from September, 2022. You can access the full conversation with transcript here.Learn more about Zena Hitz.Authors and books mentioned in the conversation:Lost in Thought: The Hidden Pleasures of the Intellectual Life, by Zena HitzAugustinePlatoAristotleJonathan HaidtDavid HumeJessica Hooten WilsonRelated Trinity Forum Readings:On Happiness, by Thomas AquinasOn Friendship, by CiceroMan’s Search for Meaning, by Viktor FranklAugustine’s ConfessionsThe Long Loneliness, by Dorothy DayWrestling with God, by Simone WeilRelated Conversations:Strength in the Second Half with Arthur BrooksCultivating a Life of Learning with Zena HitzBeing, Living, and Dying Well with Lydia DugdaleHope, Heartbreak, and Meaning with Kate BowlerThe Burden of Living and the and the Goodness of God with Alan NobleAll the Lonely People with Ryan Streeter and Francie BroghammerTo listen to this or any of our episodes in full, visit ttf.org/podcast and to join the Trinity Forum Society and help make content like this possible, join the Trinity Forum SocietySpecial thanks to Ned Bustard for our podcast artwork.

As we start to approach middle age (or beyond), how do we think about our vocation and purpose? Should our sense of mission change? What should we do to equip ourselves for a joyful, purposeful, and meaningful second half?Arthur Brooks joined us to discuss ideas in his latest book Strength to Strength, which weaves together philosophy and research on human flourishing to illuminate the inescapable fact of change as we grow older — and to offer practical guidance on flourishing in new stages of life:“I can tell you that if you boil the ocean of 10,000 research articles, you'll find the happiest people, they pursue four things every day. Faith, family, friendship, and work that serves others. In other words, love, love, love. And more love.”Friendship, crystalized intelligence, and the beatific visionThis conversation is rich in reflections on achievement, the way our intelligence changes as we age, the importance of making and sustaining real friendships, and how pondering our own mortality can lead to greater joy.Our podcast is an edited version of our Online Conversation from February, 2022. You can access the full conversation with transcript here.Learn more about Arthur Brooks.Authors and books mentioned in the conversation:Love Your Enemies, by Arthur BrooksFrom Strength to Strength, by Arthur BrooksSumma Theologica, by Thomas AquinasThe Nicomachean Ethics, by AristotleThe Dalai LamaThe Apostle PaulSt. AugustineDavid Foster WallaceAbraham MaslowRelated Trinity Forum Readings:On Happiness, by Thomas AquinasOn Friendship, by CiceroTwo Old men, by Leo TolstoyHow Much Land Does a Man Need? by Leo TolstoyMan’s Search for Meaning, by Viktor FranklRelated Conversations:Strength in the Second Half with Arthur BrooksCultivating a Life of Learning with Zena HitzBeing, Living, and Dying Well with Lydia DugdaleHope, Heartbreak, and Meaning with Kate BowlerThe Burden of Living and the and the Goodness of God with Alan NobleAll the Lonely People with Ryan Streeter and Francie BroghammerTo listen to this or any of our episodes in full, visit ttf.org/podcast and to join the Trinity Forum Society and help make content like this possible, join the Trinity Forum SocietySpecial thanks to Ned Bustard for our podcast artwork.

We all long to be fully known. Yet so often this desire for true connection and community is impaired by trauma, shame, and suffering. In October of 2021, we hosted psychiatrist Curt Thompson to discuss his book, The Soul of Desire: Discovering the Neuroscience of Longing, Beauty, and Community.In his book, Thompson weaves together neurobiological insight and spiritual formation to open up new ways of understanding our longing for connection with God and each other. Curt explored the ways cultivating presence with ourselves, others, and God can move us from brokenness to beauty:“The reason that this is important is because our trauma and our shame, all that stuff–if I don't take care of that, I'm necessarily literally going to have to be burning neurobiological energy to contain it, and that is energy that I then will not have available to create those artifacts of beauty and goodness in the world that God has prepared for me and you together, along with the presence of the Holy Spirit from before the foundation of the world, to create.”Confessional Community and the ImaginationDuring our conversation, Curt offers up a vision for the ways in which a confessional community can reshape our imaginations and reveal new possibilities for better knowing and loving God ourselves and others. It's a redemptive, hopeful, even beautiful vision, and we hope it inspires you to press into your community too.This podcast is an edited version of our Online Conversation from October, 2021. You can access the full conversation with transcript here.Learn more about Curt Thompson.Authors and books mentioned in the conversation:The Soul of Desire: Discovering the Neuroscience of Longing, Beauty, and Community, by Curt ThompsonDaniel J. SiegelTina Payne BrysonJames K.A. SmithThe Silver Chair, by C.S. LewisRelated Trinity Forum Readings:Insights from Great LiteratureMan’s Search for MeaningRelated Conversations:Strength in the Second Half with Arthur BrooksCultivating a Life of Learning with Zena HitzBeing, Living, and Dying Well with Lydia DugdaleHope, Heartbreak, and Meaning with Kate BowlerThe Burden of Living and the and the Goodness of God with Alan NobleAll the Lonely People with Ryan Streeter and Francie BroghammerTo listen to this or any of our episodes in full, visit ttf.org/podcast and to join the Trinity Forum Society and help make content like this possible, join the Trinity Forum SocietySpecial thanks to Ned Bustard for our podcast artwork.

Public Faith in Polarized Times with Mark Labberton, Claude Alexander, Walter KimIn a public square increasingly riven by tribalism, identity politics, and polarization, how can Christians wisely and faithfully engage?We were joined by Mark Labberton, Claude Alexander, and Walter Kim in August of 2021 to explore ways of understanding and approaching Christian public engagement beyond the ruts of timid quietism or belligerent culture-warring:“It's easy to think about public faith in terms of our public character. In other words, how we conduct ourselves in public. And that's critical, that's very important. The posture, the characters of integrity. The ability to bring joy and peace to others. But there's a deeper issue at stake of not merely character, but the very presence of the gospel in society, the presence of faith in society."So the gospel no longer becomes this narrow vision of personal and characterological transformation, which it is including, but it also encompasses this very expansive vision of the implications of faith for every sector of human existence and endeavor.” - Walter KimThe Church's Historic and Global WitnessDrawing on both the church’s historic witness under times of stress and persecution, and the ways in which the faith is expressed globally, Labberton, Alexander, and Kim offer a vision that is both sobering and hopeful:“I do think for me, there's the assurance that God is not the least bit surprised or undone by this moment. In fact, it's quite familiar if you look back on the pages of both the Hebrew scriptures and the New Testament, you find plenty of evidences of the makings of such moments as this.“So the sense of faith against staggering power or resistance to change, or to deep confession or all of that, that's familiar biblical terrain. That's why it required the death of God in Jesus to be able to actually take all of this with the deep seriousness that it requires.” - Mark LabbertonThe Church can be a Blessing in Polarized TimesWe believe you’ll find their vision for a church that can thrive in the midst of difficulty and serve as an exemplar of unity in a time of fragmentation and political polarization inspiring.This podcast is an edited version of our Online Conversation from August, 2021. You can access the full conversation with transcript here.Learn more about Mark Labberton, Walter Kim, and Claude Alexander.Authors and books mentioned in the conversation:Martin Luther King. Jr.Yuval LevinG.K. ChestertonSt. PaulRelated Trinity Forum Readings:Crisis-Ready Leadership CollectionThe Confessions of St. AugustineCity of GodChildren of Light and the Children of Darkness, by Reinhold NiebuhrPolitics and the English Language, by George OrwellPolitics, Morality, and Civility, by Václav Havel Related Conversations:Leadership in Tumultuous Times with Ron C. WhiteLincoln in Private with Ron C. WhiteCrisis Ready LeadershipRedeeming Power with Diane LangbergCharacter, Virtue, and Leadership with Michael LambTo listen to this or any of our episodes in full, visit ttf.org/podcast and to join the Trinity Forum Society and help make content like this possible, join the Trinity Forum SocietySpecial thanks to Ned Bustard for our podcast artwork.

Character, Virtue, and Leadership with Michael LambThe increasing conflict, chaos, and moral confusion of our time has made leadership more challenging, and the role of character increasingly questioned. What does it mean to lead wisely and well? Is successful leadership defined by “winning”? How is trust built in a cynical age?The Link Between Virtue and LeadershipWake Forest professor, author, and director of the The Program for Leadership and Character, Michael Lamb helps us wrestle with these questions by exploring the link between virtue and wise leadership, and showing how character formation enables leaders to establish trust, think wisely, empower others, and persevere through difficult times.“If we do care about our social fabric, if we care about our communal flourishing, we need the virtues that help us build meaningful relationships. We need empathy and we need humility to recognize our limits. And we need courage and justice, and we need other virtues. And I think in that context, I think what's really important is to recognize that.“Character matters and it matters for our flourishing, but also it can actually lead to more effective results.”Defining Leadership and CharacterIn addition to helpfully defining leadership and character, Michael offers insight into why we often prefer unscrupulous or brash leaders in public while seeking friends of virtue. Drawing on Augustine, Michael reminds us that we aren’t victims of our times, but instead have an active, hopeful role to play in shaping the character of our communities in our time.This podcast is an edited version of our Online Conversation from February, 2023. You can access the full conversation with transcript here.Learn more about Michael Lamb.Authors and books mentioned in the conversation:Anthony KronmanHarry LewisReturn on Character: The Real Reason Leaders and Their Companies Win, Fred KielRichard ReevesMachiavelliAristotleThe Road to Character, David BrooksSt. Augustine of HippoMartin Luther King Jr.GandhiThe Courage to Teach, Parker PalmerRelated Trinity Forum Readings:Crisis-Ready Leadership CollectionThe Confessions of St. AugustineRelated Conversations:Leadership in Tumultuous Times with Ron C. WhiteLincoln in Private with Ron C. WhiteCrisis Ready LeadershipRedeeming Power with Diane LangbergTo listen to this or any of our episodes in full, visit ttf.org/podcast and to join the Trinity Forum Society and help make content like this possible, join the Trinity Forum SocietySpecial thanks to Ned Bustard for our podcast artwork.

Redeeming Power with Diane LangbergPsychologist and author Dr. Diane Langberg joins our podcast to discuss the themes in her book, Redeeming Power: Understanding Authority and Abuse in the Church. Dr. Langberg who has been working with survivors of trauma and abuse, clergy, and caregivers for almost 50 years, desires to increase awareness and understanding of power and its abuse so those who have been abandoned by broken systems of power can be defended and protected.Defending dysfunctional and abusive systems"When we think about a system of any kind, whether it's a government or some kind of organization, or the church, which is a system, it's people standing together usually for a particular goal or purpose or whatever.And so what the people want to do is maintain the system because of what it gives them. So if you come along and say, the person who's running that system is a wolf and is devouring the sheep, nobody wants to hear that. Because if that's the case, then the thing that they believe in that keeps them safe isn't safe. That's terrifying." - Diane LangbergIn this conversation Dr. Langberg discusses the purposes, dynamics, systems, and proper place of power, as well as the ways in which it can deform and distort, noting that “our responses to the vulnerable expose who we are.”And she noted that while “much of Christendom today seems less interested in seeing as Jesus saw…and far more interested in gaining power,” there is also the invitation and opportunity before us to “cross divides, step out of high positions, and reach out with love to those who are vulnerable, whose power is little or trampled, bestowing benedictions as we go.” We trust you’ll find this conversation inspiring and hopeful.This podcast is an edited version of our Online Conversation from July 2021. You can access the full conversation with transcript here.Learn more about Diane Langberg.Authors and books mentioned in the conversation:George HerbertRelated Trinity Forum Readings:Crisis-Ready Leadership CollectionRelated Conversations:Leadership in Tumultuous Times with Ron C. WhiteLincoln in Private with Ron C. WhiteCrisis Ready LeadershipTo listen to this or any of our episodes in full, visit ttf.org/podcast and to join the Trinity Forum Society and help make content like this possible, join the Trinity Forum SocietySpecial thanks to Ned Bustard for our podcast artwork.

Crisis Ready Leadership with Justin Giboney, Russell Moore, Shirley Hoogstra, Walter KimWhat does it take to listen, respond, learn, and lead? How do leaders prepare for the unexpected and unpredictable?In this episode Shirley Hoogstra, Russell Moore, Justin Giboney and Walter Kim consider the historic values of leadership, share lessons learned from their own lives, and provide encouragement for leaders today.How to Speak in a CrisisReflecting on the temptation to tell people what they want to hear, Russell Moore encourages leaders to consider long-term credibility and speaking the truth:“I think one of the most dangerous things that can possibly happen is if people don't believe that you believe what it is that you're saying. And that's a tendency…to think, well, what would people want me to say? And I will say that. And that can make things easy for the moment, but long term, you're not going to be believed by the very people who need you to lead.” - Russell MooreFaithfulness vs. PerfectionShirley Hoogstra shared about the freedom that comes with being “roughly ready” in a crisis, and in casting our fears and anxieties on God:“In this time of fear, Christians actually have the advantage because the Bible speaks about fear. It speaks about “don't be afraid,” “don't be  anxious,” not because you've got the willpower to do it, but because you can bring your anxiety and your fear to God.“And I'm sure with the other leaders on this call, you've woken up in the middle of the night and you've wondered about decisions or actions that you have to take, and then you say, ‘Lord, I just have to give it over to you. You have it. I don't have to have it. You are the engine. I'm not the engine. And you'll gimme a redo loop if I get it wrong.’ It is not perfection, it's faithfulness.”This podcast offers a wealth of wisdom on leading through crisis, and is an edited version of our Online Conversation from June 2020. You can access the full conversation with transcript here.Learn more about Justin Gibony, Russell Moore, Shirley Hoogstra, and Walter Kim.Authors and books mentioned in the conversation:Max De PreeSeth GodinLearning in Wartime, by C.S. LewisGood to Great, by Jim CollinsBishop Claude AlexanderDr. Charlie DayEsau McCauleyAndy CrouchA Rule of Life, by Praxis LabsThe Dip, by Seth GodinEugene PetersonYour Labor is not in VainLeadership on the Line, by Martin Linsky and Ronald A. HeifetzRelated Trinity Forum Readings:Crisis-Ready Leadership CollectionRelated Conversations:Leadership in Tumultuous Times with Ron C. WhiteLincoln in Private with Ron C. WhiteTo listen to this or any of our episodes in full, visit ttf.org/podcast and to join the Trinity Forum Society and help make content like this possible, join the Trinity Forum SocietySpecial thanks to Ned Bustard for our podcast artwork.