Humans On The Loop

“When I have a rich, powerful, mind expanding, mind bending conversation like this, I'll need to go and lie down in darkened room afterwards.”– Robert PoyntonThis week’s guest is my friend and inspiration Robert Poynton, Founder of Yellow Learning, Associate Fellow at the Saïd Business School at Oxford, and author of three beautiful short books — Do Pause, Do Improvise, and Do Conversation — full of his insights from decades of designing and leading Executive Education leadership programs and hosting creative retreats in Spain.In Future Fossils Episode 196 Robert and I discussed how important it is to learn the principles of improvisation as a way of life. And as he notes in his latest book, most of us are already skilled improvisers because we spend our lives in conversation — not just with each other, but with our environments. How does trying on this frame transform the ways that we relate to them?In this episode we explore conversations as an art form and as a technology, technology as a conversation, and how weird this all gets when so many of us are having what feel like literal conversations with technology itself. Some of our topics:• How do we create fertile “conversational fields”? • How do different media constrain and open conversational possibilities?• What does it mean to “be generous” with our improv partners?• What might the structure of good conversation teach us about engaging with AI — and help us “converse” with the entire history of a person or a culture?At the heart of this project and this episode in particular is the belief that some things are worth doing not because they get us where we want to go, but because they’re pleasures in themselves. Good conversations are their own reward, and conversations with Robert are especially rewarding.(Do yourself a favor and join a Yellow Learning cohort sometime…)PS — A bonus for subscribers this week: an extra mini-episode behind the paywall! After Robert and I landed this discussion we kept talking for another hour. Most of it was off-topic but there were some choice bits in there too good to leave on the cutting room floor. If you don’t see it below the show notes, you know what to do:Upcoming Events* 24 April – Right Relationship with AI feat. Turquoise Sound and Michael Garfield at The School of Wise Innovation’s Spring Cultivator (free & public 90-minute discussion)* 3 May – Book Club: Prophetic Culture by Federico Campagna (patrons-only discussion)* 13 May-14 June – How To Live In The Future at Weirdosphere (five-week online course with ten sessions)Project Links• Explore my full podcast archives and this project’s writing/episode archives• Join the Future Fossils Discord for both public and members-only threads• Browse and buy the books we talk about on the show• Explore a map and chat bot grown from nine years of mind-expanding episodes• Meet new allies on the open online commons Wisdom x Technology Discord• Dig into Humans On The Loop’s original pitch & planning document• Contact me if you want to work togetherMentioned BooksRobert Poynton — Do Conversation: There’s No Such Thing As Small TalkW. Brian Arthur — The Nature of Technology: What It Is and How It EvolvesEthan Mollick — Co-Intelligence: Living and Working with AIJennifer Cobb — Cybergrace: The Search for God in The Digital World Mentioned PeopleK Allado-McDowellJ.F. MartelTom MorganDr. BlueKevin KellyErik DavisKen AdamsJake KobrinTheodore ZeldinChris KutarnaMike LargePlatoSam AltmanErothymeGurdjieffKrishnamurtiPeter BrookeFederico CampagnaIain McGilchristDavid BohmCosma ShaliziNick LandYuval HarariTom ChatfieldMax WalucasTerence McKennaJason SilvaAlbert EinsteinIsaac NewtonBaruch SpinozaGottfried LeibnizLudwig WittgensteinCarlo RovelliT.S. EliotCarlos CastanedaBonus Mini-EpisodeOn The Value of Noisy Media, Conversational Protocols for Scaling Interaction, The Joy of Provisional Lists, and Tech Companies as Networks of Relationships“When Apple has a pile of cash of the size it has, it looks permanent. It looks forever. It looks untouchable, and people get attached by that kind of visible sense of scale. But there was a guy I knew many years ago who'd been around Silicon Valley long enough, and knew all the people, all these organisms that we call organizations or brands. And he always saw Silicon Valley as a network of personal relationships, which would every now and then explode into a visible platform or or company like Google or Apple. But he was kinda like, ‘That's not what's going on.’ He would always say ‘It's the mycelial network of the relationships between the individuals.’”– Robert PoyntonHere you go: This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit michaelgarfield.substack.com/subscribe

Join Joshua DiCaglio, Associate Professor of English at Texas A&M University and author of 'Scale Theory: A Nondisciplinary Inquiry,' as he dives into the profound implications of contemplating scale. He discusses the interconnectedness of micro and macrocosmic realities and how this understanding challenges our perception of separateness. Joshua explores the relationship between AI and human agency, emphasizing the necessity of recognizing our interdependence with both small and vast scales. Prepare for a thought-provoking journey through complexity and existential necessity!

Jim O'Shaughnessy, a renowned investor and founder of O'Shaughnessy Ventures, dives into creativity and trust in today’s complex world. He shares personal anecdotes about overcoming challenges and how childhood experiences shaped his financial passions. The conversation touches on the 'crisis personality' and the resilience that emerges from tumultuous times. Jim also examines the impact of technology on human agency and social interactions, questioning how trust evolves in our rapidly changing society. His insights inspire curiosity, collaboration, and reflection.

Aishwarya Khanduja, founder of The Analogue Group, fosters unconventional thinking to tackle complex problems. She discusses the balance between boundaries and creative flows, essential for innovation. Aishwarya shares her journey from a small town in India to impacting education in Canada. They delve into the importance of adaptive storytelling in societal systems, advocating for policies informed by personal narratives. The conversation highlights the evolving nature of work, identity, and humanity, emphasizing the necessity of embracing uncertainty in innovation.

This week I dialogue with Matthew David Segall, Associate Professor of Philosophy, Cosmology, and Consciousness at the California Institute of Integral Studies, Chair of the Science Advisory Committee for the Cobb Institute, and author of the Footnotes To Plato blog as well as numerous books on the philosophy of Alfred North Whitehead and Friedrich Schelling. In it, we wrangle with some very fundamental questions, such as:* What distinguishes the organismal and machinic?* How can we support vital cultural activity without reducing the measure of our humanity to our economic productivity?* What if we’re looking for mind in AI in the wrong places, and instead treat both technology and human consciousness as unified within one unfolding process of cosmic self-discovery?We welcome your feedback and reflections — here, or in the Future Fossils Discord Server — and to join us in the inquiry about what lies beyond modernity, and how to nourish the collective imagination we need to thrive there! I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.Pardon the delay: inexplicable technical issues forced me to re-render this episode half a dozen times. Hopefully you appreciate the “staying up until 1 am to try and ship on time”!Subscribe, Rate, & Comment on YouTube • Apple Podcasts • SpotifyIf you like this show, dig into the archives and consider making tax-deductible donations at every.org/humansontheloop. (You’ll get all the same perks as Substack patrons.)Project LinksRead the project pitch & planning docDig into the full episode and essay archivesJoin the open online commons for Wisdom x Technology on DiscordContact me about partnerships, consulting, your life, or other mysteriesChapters0:00:00 - Teaser0:01:32 - Intro0:08:18 - About Matt0:15:19 - Nouns & Verbs, Machines & Organisms0:24:24 - Emergence & Epistemic Humility0:36:55 - The Relationship Between Cultures & Markets0:49:21 - What Are Markets & Can They Play?0:58:30 - Our Responsibility To What We Make1:06:42 - Is Conscious AI A Hyperobject?1:17:43 - OutroMentionsMatt’s Website & TwitterMatt Segall & O.G. Rose - Re-thinking Economics & The Meaning of ValueBrendan Graham Dempsey & Matt Segall - Physics, Metaphysics, Meta-MetaphysicsMatt Segall & Tim Jackson - The Blind Spot (2024): A Critical and Reconstructive ReviewFuture Fossils 223 - Timothy Morton on A New Christian Ecology & Systems Thinking BlasphemyMichael Garfield - Introducing Humans On The LoopAbraham Flexner - The Usefulness of Useless KnowledgeW. Brian Arthur - The Nature of TechnologyW. Brian Arthur - Economics in Nouns and VerbsMiguel Fuentes - Complexity and The Emergence of Physical PropertiesMichael Lachmann, Mark Newman, Cris Moore - The Physical Limits of CommunicationSteven Johnson - Revenge of The HumanitiesAdam Frank, Marcelo Gleiser, Evan Thompson - The Blind SpotJessica Flack - Hourglass Emergence: Complexity Begets Complexity thru Information Bottlenecks (video)Richard Doyle - Darwin’s Pharmacy: Sex, Plants, and The Evolution of The NoosphereKevin Kelly - The Expansion of IgnoranceWilliam Irwin Thompson - The Borg or Borges?Danny Hillis - The Enlightenment is Dead, Long Live The EntanglementKevin Kelly - Out of ControlKai EnnisCarl JungStephen HawkingFriedrich NietzschRichard DawkinsAlan WattsMichael SchwartzAlfred North WhiteheadSean Esjbörn-HargensFelix GuattariStuart KauffmanRudolf SteinerDavid WolpertRobert RosenMichael LevinNorbert WeinerKen WilberKarl FristonGilbert SimondonHumberto MaturanaFrancisco VarelaJohn VervaekeTerrence DeaconPierre Teilhard de Chardin This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit michaelgarfield.substack.com/subscribe

In an insightful discussion, Andrew McLuhan, author and director of the McLuhan Institute, traces the roots of media theory across three generations. He explores how technology shapes perception and the delicate balance between autonomy and surveillance in our digital age. The conversation dives into chaos magic and personal evolution, connecting it to broader cultural changes. Additionally, McLuhan reflects on his family's legacy, emphasizing storytelling's evolution and urging a mindful approach to modern technology's impact on society.

J.F. Martel is a Canadian author and filmmaker known for his explorations of the unknown and mystical. In this discussion, he probes the evolving relationship between humanity and technology, questioning whether we’ve already experienced the Technological Singularity. Martel delves into the implications of AI on creativity and identity, particularly regarding art and social media’s impact on self-image. He underscores the necessity of integrating traditional wisdom in an age of automation, raising compelling queries about agency and the future of personhood.

Adah Parris, a strategic futurist and pattern navigator, shares her insights on cyborg shamanism and the ethics of technology. She discusses the relationship between neurodiversity and the digital world, framing conditions like ADHD as strengths rather than obstacles. The importance of authenticity in a social media-driven society is highlighted, alongside the need for ethical responsibility in tech development. Adah emphasizes creative expression as a tool for healing and community building in our interconnected lives.

Howard Rheingold, an author and critic renowned for his insights into technology's societal impact, dives into the importance of attention management in the digital age. He discusses how technology can both distract and empower individuals, urging listeners to engage more mindfully with digital tools. Rheingold reflects on his personal journey with technology and consciousness, emphasizing the necessity of digital literacy amidst challenges like surveillance capitalism. By fostering creativity and community engagement, he argues we can better navigate our complex digital landscape.

Jessica Clark, an author and futurist, leads Dot Connector Studio, where she champions social innovation at the crossroads of media and culture. In this conversation, she discusses her book on inclusive futures and the importance of diverse narratives in storytelling. Clark explores the challenges of misinformation in today's media landscape and the evolving roles of artists as creative entrepreneurs. She emphasizes the need for collaboration and intergenerational dialogue to drive innovation and redefine success in the arts.