Relationship Alive!

When you’re stuck in conflict, how do you step outside of the situation enough to identify ways to break the patterns that are keeping you stuck? Especially in ongoing conflict, just doing more of the same isn’t going to change your outcome. Our guest is Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler, author of Optimal Outcomes: Free Yourself from Conflict at Work, at Home, and in Life. We’ll talk about practical, effective strategies you can use to escape the conflict loop - and, thus, get different results! And as always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it! Sponsors: Find a quality therapist, online, to support you and work on the places where you’re stuck. For 10% off your first month, visit Betterhelp.com/ALIVE to fill out the quick questionnaire and get paired with a therapist who’s right for you. Resources: Check out Jen Goldman-Wetzler’s website, where you can take the assessments we talk about in today’s conversation. Grab Jen Goldman-Wetzler’s book Optimal Outcomes on Amazon or from your local bookseller.  FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide - perfect help for handling conflict and shifting the codependent patterns in your relationship Or...check out the Secrets of Relationship Communication complete course! Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner's Needs) in Your Relationship (ALSO FREE) Visit www.neilsattin.com/optimal to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler. Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out Transcript: Neil Sattin: Hello and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host Neil Sattin. Now, I don't know about you, but I haven't managed to live a conflict-free life. In fact, it seems like it can be pretty easy to experience conflict with people in the world around us. And it comes up in our relationships, it comes up at work, it comes up with family, it comes up with your kids, and so I was tantalized when a former guest, Erica Fox, reached out to tell me about a colleague and friend of hers who had just come out with a new book called Optimal Outcomes: Free Yourself From Conflict at Work, at Home and in Life. And I thought, "Conflict-free, that sounds pretty good." 'Cause conflict adds a lot of stress. And you know I went through a divorce about a year ago, and that process wasn't conflict-free, and my divorce before that wasn't conflict-free. And in fact, there are all kinds of opportunities to experience rocky relationships. And this is particularly vexing for me because I put so much energy into trying to get it right and trying to master communication skills and bring openness and understanding to all of these conversations with people that, not all the time, I don't want you to think that my life is just riddled with conflict, but occasionally blow up in my face. Neil Sattin: So I'm excited to have today's guest here with us to talk about this process of totally reframing the way that you see conflict, how you handle conflict, and how to escape from those perpetual conflicts that seem to be unresolvable. We'll see how we can go from unresolvable to conflict-free in today's episode. Our guest's name is Dr. Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler. She's the author of Optimal Outcomes as I just mentioned, and she is also the Founder and CEO of Alignment Strategies Group, which is an organization that is focused on creating health in other organizations and corporations. And on top of that, she teaches a popular course on conflict resolution at Columbia University. So let's dive right in. Before we do, if you want a transcript of today's episode, just visit neilsattin.com/optimal. Or as always, you can text the word "Passion" to the number 33444 and follow the instructions. Okay, that's it. Jen Goldman-Wetzler, it's such a pleasure to have you here with us today on Relationship Alive. Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler: It's great to be with you today, Neil. Neil Sattin: Let's just dive in with... I'm curious to know how you... How would you define the way that you look at conflict? How is that different from typical conflict resolution? Why is this not your grandmother's conflict resolution, or maybe your Harvard negotiation program's conflict resolution? Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler: Right. It definitely isn't. It is built on that though. My work in conflict freedom comes out of doing the work of conflict resolution with people on the ground in the Middle East, Israelis and Palestinians, with corporate leaders in pharmaceutical companies and healthcare companies and financial services, professional services. And at some point, about five years into doing that work, I noticed that conflict didn't always get resolved. The methods that we've been teaching for the last 40 years around resolving conflict work well in many situations, but in some situations, they just don't work. And when I came to that realization, I realized I wanted to dig in and try to understand, "Why not?" And most importantly, "What could we do to free ourselves from those conflict loops?" Those situations that just seem to go around and around and around and never get resolved, no matter what we do, no matter how well we apply the latest conflict resolution methodology. And so it took me about 13 years to get this book written, and it's based on five years of deep research in the realm of emotions like humiliation and conflict. Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler: So the main difference really is... Interested in reading a transcript of the rest of this episode? Click here to download it!

Do you ever feel like you *should* have gotten over something challenging - that you’ve grown, and learned from the experience, but that on some level it still haunts you? Or do you feel inner conflict around decisions that seem like they should be relatively clear-cut? Are you afraid of failure? It could very well be that you have bypassed or suppressed your negative emotions, and that they’re now stuck inside you, wreaking havoc on your inner guidance system. By not facing failures or challenges head on, we actually create an emotional dissonance within ourselves that’s an obstacle to moving forward. Today we’ll talk about how to face things when they’re not quite the way you want them to be - and how to develop the inner honesty that will help you feel aligned and courageous no matter what’s happening in your life. As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it! Sponsors: Find a quality therapist, online, to support you and work on the places where you’re stuck. For 10% off your first month, visit Betterhelp.com/ALIVE to fill out the quick questionnaire and get paired with a therapist who’s right for you. Resources: Check out my Secrets of Relationship Communication COURSE for a masterclass in how to improve the communication and connection in your relationship. I want to know you better! Take the quick, anonymous, Relationship Alive survey FREE Guide to Neil’s Top 3 Relationship Communication Secrets Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner’s Needs) in Relationship (ALSO FREE) Support the podcast (or text “SUPPORT” to 33444) Amazing intro and outro music provided courtesy of The Railsplitters Transcript: Neil Sattin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host, Neil Sattin. Today is going to be an episode about truth, and more specifically why it is so important for you to be truthful with yourself and why that sometimes means that you have to go negative, and why it's so important to not be bypassing your negative experiences. And I'm talking to you from the perspective of someone who is almost always optimistic about life, even in my darkest moments, I generally am able to look on the bright side, and that's a helpful skill in life. In fact, there's a whole branch of psychology, positive psychology, that is at least in part based on this idea of how we make meaning in the world and trying to make positive meanings out of the things that happen to us and what a difference that makes. However, there is a danger in that skill, and today we're going to talk about what the danger is to make sure that you are not gas-lighting yourself, and instead that you're able to best use the truth for your own growth, and so to really understand what's happening in your life right now, because it can be so easy to miss what's challenging, what's truly challenging for the sake of a quick silver lining. Neil Sattin: All right, let's dive into the topic at hand. So what is true? When you look at your life, you don't want to make things out to be worse than they are, you don't want to make mountains out of molehills, as they say, but you also don't necessarily want to make things out to be better than they are. In a way where we've been having in our world today sort of a crisis of truth, what do you believe, and we could have all kinds of conversations about how to figure out what the facts are in the outside world, but today we're going to talk about what the facts are in your inner world, and why that is so important for you. You want to be able to face your failures. And failure is a charged word. I mean, a few episodes ago, you may have heard in my session with David Burns where I confronted this idea that I was a failure and it was one of the negative thoughts, the pernicious negative thoughts that was bringing me down and contributing to my being overwhelmed with the sheer number of things that I had to do. Neil Sattin: And yet... And David and working with me did a really effective job of helping me bust through the negative thought, the cognitive distortion in order to get what was true. And that is super important work. This today's episode is not about suddenly everyone becoming pessimists or for you to suddenly be shitting on yourself all the time. That's not what today's episode is about. However, sometimes when you're looking at reality, you have to admit that the reality isn't what you wanted it to be. And just kind of a quick cursory noticing of that might not really be enough for some important reasons. Neil Sattin: Now, it might be enough to recognize that your life isn't the way that you want it to be, that something really sucks for just a moment in order to get resourceful and start strategizing about ways to change things, and if you are anything like me, and I know that because you're here listening, you are at least a growth-minded person, then that might be something that's relatively easy for you, "This sucks, how am I going to make it better?" And then you start strategizing. But the problem with that is that there is a place in us where the hurt, where the sadness, where the anger, where all of the feelings that are stirred up by the results that we are getting in our lives that don't quite line up with what we wanted, whether it's through our actions or through the actions of others, there's a place in us where those negative feelings live... Interested in reading the transcript for the rest of this episode?  Click here to download the full transcript of this episode!

When your partner is unmotivated to change and has resorted to stonewalling - or blaming everything on you - what can you do? If you’re a therapist working with a couple in this situation, you’ll learn some valuable ways to directly address this issue and change the dynamics. In today’s episode, we have a return visit from Peter Pearson. He is a co-founder, with Ellyn Bader, of The Couples Institute, one of the leading centers for training couples therapists and helping people find practical solutions to relationship issues. Their book “Tell Me No Lies” describes how to create a culture of honesty in your relationship (and why that’s so important) - while their work on the Developmental Model of relationships gives deep insight into why we do what we do. Today you’ll learn some specific ways to shake things loose when your partner is unmotivated to change (or *you* are). Visit neilsattin.com/institute to join Pete Pearson’s and Ellyn Bader’s free webinars on how to use Confrontation in therapy! And as always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it! Sponsors: Want something new to entertain you? Acorn TV is a commercial-free streaming service that’s rooted in British television. It’s home to sophisticated and artful storytelling with top-rated mysteries, dramas that pull you in, heart-felt comedies and so much more. So - Escape to Britain and beyond without leaving your seat. Try Acorn TV free for 30 days, by going to acorn.tv and using the promo code “ALIVE” at checkout. Find a quality therapist, online, to support you and work on the places where you’re stuck. For 10% off your first month, visit Betterhelp.com/ALIVE to fill out the quick questionnaire and get paired with a therapist who’s right for you. Resources: To join Ellyn and Pete’s free webinar series on using confrontation in therapy with couples, follow this link here. Visit The Couples Institute website to learn more about Ellyn and Pete’s work with couples, and with helping therapists help couples. FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide - perfect help for handling conflict and shifting the codependent patterns in your relationship Or...check out the Secrets of Relationship Communication complete course! Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner's Needs) in Your Relationship (ALSO FREE) Visit www.neilsattin.com/unmotivated to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with Peter Pearson. Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out If you’re curious to hear our first episode together, about shaping a culture of honesty in your relationship, you can also check out Episode 24 of Relationship Alive - Why We Lie and How to Get Back to the Truth And you can listen to our second episode together, which was about Relationship Development and getting unstuck in your relationship, if you click here. And here’s our third episode together - Communication that Grows Your Relationship. Transcript: Neil Sattin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host, Neil Sattin. You know how sometimes it feels like you're the only one who's doing the work in your relationship? And we talk about that a lot on this show, this idea that a lot of times, it only takes one to make a difference. And there are all these ways that you can make changes that create leverage in your relationship and can totally shift the dynamic. You're in a dance, you change your steps, your partner is going to change their steps. Well, sometimes that's true, and sometimes you are with someone who is really stuck or unmotivated, they don't want to follow through with things, they really don't think they need to do anything else because they've already done enough. And in fact, they may even be gaslighting you or blaming you, trying to make it seem like everything that's going on, all the problems that you're experiencing are actually your fault. Neil Sattin: So I thought it would be good to tackle this topic head on. And to do so, I have a very special returning guest today, Dr. Peter Pearson, who along with his wife, Ellyn Bader, have created The Couples Institute. They are leading authorities on not only how to help couples through serious problems like infidelity, other betrayals, trust issues, but also they train couples therapists. So if you are a therapist, you'll definitely want to be paying attention, because today we're going to talk both about how you would approach this as the partner, and also as a therapist, how you would approach it. And by the way, this topic, I had a few ideas that I ran by Pete, and this was one that he suggested, and we're going to tackle it in a slightly different way than usual, where I'm actually going to be role-playing the part of the unmotivated stuck partner, which we were doing a little practice a few moments ago, and it's actually challenging for me, so I'm going to have to muster up my best improv energy to be that partner. Neil Sattin: In any case, we will have a detailed transcript of today's episode, which you can get if you visit neilsattin.com/... Ooh, what's this one going to be? Neilsattin.com/unmotivated. That's what we're going to call it. So if you go to neilsattin.com/unmotivated, you can get the transcript of this episode. And we'll talk about this a little bit later on, but there is a series of workshops that Ellyn is going to be giving for therapists that are all about how to use confrontation in therapy with your clients, how to confront people in general, and then specifically around issues like narcissism and infidelity. And if you're interested in that, you can visit neilsattin.com/institute, as in the Couples Institute, to sign up. And that's free, by the way. I think that's enough for me. Let's dive right in. Pete Pearson, it's so great to have you here with us again on Relationship Alive. Pete Pearson: Hey Neil, it's really good to be back, and I am looking forward to doing something kind of unusual. Neil Sattin: Yeah, me too. Pete Pearson: You get to play the role of a passive or passive-aggressive spouse who believes they've done all they need to do and they're done doing more, which is not an uncommon place for a therapist to deal with. So I thought instead of just me describing how I might respond to an unmotivated partner, that we would actually put it to the test. Neil Sattin: Great. Pete Pearson: And hopefully it will feel more realistic as you do your best job of mustering an unmotivated passive-aggressive person, which goes against everything you teach and preach. Interested in reading the transcript for the rest of this episode with Pete Pearson?  Click here to download the full transcript of this episode!

Do you ever procrastinate? If you’re looking for a way to finally stop putting things off - and get them done - then today’s episode is for you. As a follow-up to a session with me on being overwhelmed, David Burns has returned for a session to help me with my own procrastination. You’ll get to hear what works, what doesn’t, and - if you’re a therapist or coach - how to help other people with their procrastination. David Burns is the author of the newly released Feeling Great, which contains all the improvements in his methodology over the decades since his classic bestseller Feeling Good was written. David’s TEAM-CBT approach to therapy is a powerful way to stay centered and positive, no matter what’s going on in your world. This session with David Burns was a follow-up to our session on Overwhelm back in Episode 228. And, as always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you.  Join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it!  Sponsors: Find a quality therapist, online, to support you and work on the places where you’re stuck. For 10% off your first month, visit Betterhelp.com/ALIVE to fill out the quick questionnaire and get paired with a therapist who’s right for you. Resources:  Check out Dr. David Burns's website Read David’s classic books, Feeling Good or Ten Days To Self-Esteem Order David’s newest book: Feeling Great - The Revolutionary New Treatment for Depression and Anxiety FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide www.neilsattin.com/feelinggood5 Visit to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with David Burns, along with the Daily Mood Log. Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out Transcript: Neil Sattin: Well, I've been doing well. It's been interesting to have now a couple days of waking up and feeling that overwhelm feeling start, and then to actively be engaged in some dialogue around that. Basically, I don't have to listen to you and this is bullshit, I'm going to do what I need to do, and the overwhelm isn't helping. And it's interesting that that's been... That's been pretty effective, actually. David Burns: Oh. That's great. Neil Sattin: Yeah. David Burns: Let's do a quick tune-up thing here and then we'll push forward. Neil Sattin: Great. David Burns: See how good you are at all of that. Now, let's see. Here we go. I'm actually starting my own little anti-procrastination for the week. I'm getting organized on my paperwork, and I put a staple through my notes which made it possible for me to find them forever - quickly. Neil Sattin: Oh, great. David Burns: What's your name? Neil Sattin: Neil. David Burns: What's my name? Neil Sattin: You'll be Neil. Right? David Burns: Yeah, that's right. Neil Sattin: All right. David Burns: And I just wanted to remind you, once again, that the fact is you're failing. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I don't have to listen to a thought like that right now. David Burns: You don't, but it is factually true. That's all I'm saying. Neil Sattin: It's not true that I'm failing. It's true that I have a lot to do and I'm going to figure out what's most important, and I'm going to do what's most important right now. And overall, the trajectory of my life is pretty good. I've gotten a lot accomplished and there's plenty of evidence to support that I'm actually doing fine, that I'm not failing. David Burns: Who won? Neil Sattin: I won. David Burns: Big or small? Neil Sattin: Big. David Burns: Big or huge? Neil Sattin: I would say not quite huge, but pretty big. David Burns: Okay, great. Do a role reversal. I thought it was quite strong, but do a role reversal. Neil Sattin: Okay. Hey, Neil, just... David Burns: Hey. How are you doing big guy? Neil Sattin: Well, I could be doing... David Burns: I was getting a little lonely without you. Neil Sattin: I could be doing better. The problem is that you're failing. David Burns: Well, you know, I've failed at many things throughout my life and I've succeeded at many things throughout my life and... But I'm not quite sure what you're referring to. Are you referring to the fact that I'm procrastinating at some things, or is there something else you're suggesting? Neil Sattin: Yeah. I would say that, right now, it's that there's a lot that needs to get done and you're not doing enough of it. David Burns: Well, you're right about that, and actually I don't intend to. Neil Sattin: You don't intend to? David Burns: No. I'm not going to try to take on all that stuff and listen to your bullshit. I might take on one thing, get started on one thing I've been putting off, but the idea that somehow I have to do all of this, that just makes me feel - It's just the kind of a stupid thing that you're saying, because when you say I'm failing, it's just like I'm some failure, there's some grandiose failing going on. There are people all over the world right now who are cooped up with coronavirus, and procrastinating a little bit, and feeling down. And I wouldn't go about telling them that they're failing, that would be ridiculous. I don't appreciate it when you do that to me either. Interested in reading the transcript for the rest of this episode with David Burns?  Click here to download the full transcript of this episode!

How do you talk about your feelings - without your partner getting reactive and defensive? There are some common mistakes that we make when talking about our feelings that can lead to it going horribly wrong. In today’s episode, we’ll cover ways that you can adjust how you talk about your feelings so that you’ll be most likely to stay connected - even if you’re bringing up some hard stuff. And you’ll learn what to do if you notice your partner making these mistakes as well when they talk about their feelings with you. As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it! Sponsors: This episode is sponsored by Native Deodorant. Their products are filled with ingredients you can find in nature like coconut oil, which is an antimicrobial, shea butter to moisturize, and tapioca starch to absorb wetness. They don’t ever test on animals, they don’t use aluminum or any other scary chemical ingredients, and they’re so confident that you’ll like their deodorant that they offer free shipping - and returns. For 20% off your first purchase, visit http://www.nativedeo.com/alive and use promo code ALIVE during checkout. Find a quality therapist, online, to support you and work on the places where you’re stuck. For 10% off your first month, visit Betterhelp.com/ALIVE to fill out the quick questionnaire and get paired with a therapist who’s right for you. Resources: Check out my Secrets of Relationship Communication COURSE for a masterclass in how to improve the communication and connection in your relationship. I want to know you better! Take the quick, anonymous, Relationship Alive survey FREE Guide to Neil’s Top 3 Relationship Communication Secrets Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner’s Needs) in Relationship (ALSO FREE) Support the podcast (or text “SUPPORT” to 33444) Amazing intro and outro music provided courtesy of The Railsplitters Transcript: Neil Sattin: Alright, alright, let's dive in to the show. How to talk about your feelings without it going horribly wrong. This is super important because the name of the game in relating is being able to stay connected, not just on an intellectual level with your partner, but on a heart level, And if you have the habit of sweeping your feelings under the rug because there's no productive way to bring them to the conversation, then that's just a recipe for disconnect down the road. I've experienced that. So I want to tell you that it is much better to be able to bring your feelings to the table and have a way to chat about them that leads to connection, that leads to solutions of problems. 'cause let's face it, most of the time when we talk about our feelings and our partner gets defensive, it's because we're communicating challenging feelings. Now, I suppose it's possible that you could be communicating something like how much you love your partner and that could somehow trigger them and make them feel defensive, like maybe if they feel like you're saying that you love them and that now you have some big expectation of them, that's possible. Neil Sattin: Those kinds of conversations can happen a lot early in a relationship where one person is ready to take the I love you plunge before the other person is necessarily ready, so that's relevant, 'cause that's a positive feeling, but most of the time it's sharing things about feeling sad or hurt or scared or unsure or any number of uncomfortable feelings - angry. And it's important to know how to bring that to your relationship. So first, I want to cover just a few ground rules, now, these aren't necessarily all the ground rules, I did a three and half hour course on communication, so this is just going to be an episode and I do not want it to be three and a half hours long I want it to be simple and straight forward for you, so we're going to cover a few of the ground rules and how they can go wrong, and this will all make sense to you in just a moment, so first thing is... And you've probably heard this, is that you want to use I statements. I feel . And some people think that as long as they're using an I statement, that they're good. Neil Sattin: And this is one of the places where we can go horribly wrong because... Interested in reading the transcript for the rest of this episode?  Click here to download the full transcript of this episode!

Are you undermining your connection with your partner, or the others in your life, with microaggressions? While the “little things” can be the building blocks of something amazing - they can also undermine the very fabric of how you relate with another person, perpetuating sexism, racism, or other unhealthy power dynamics. Today our guest is Kevin Nadal, co-editor of Microaggression Theory: Influence and Implications. He is one of the world’s foremost experts on how to spot microaggressions and overcome their impact in your life. As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it! Sponsors: Find a quality therapist, online, to support you and work on the places where you’re stuck. For 10% off your first month, visit Betterhelp.com/ALIVE to fill out the quick questionnaire and get paired with a therapist who’s right for you. Resources: Grab a copy of Kevin Nadal’s book Microaggression Theory: Influence and Implications or his latest book Queering Law and Order: LGBTQ Communities and the Criminal Justice System You can also visit Keven Nadal’s website to find out more about his work and offerings. Check out my Secrets of Relationship Communication COURSE for a masterclass in how to improve the communication and connection in your relationship. I want to know you better! Take the quick, anonymous, Relationship Alive survey FREE Guide to Neil’s Top 3 Relationship Communication Secrets Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner’s Needs) in Relationship (ALSO FREE) Support the podcast (or text “SUPPORT” to 33444) Amazing intro and outro music provided courtesy of The Railsplitters Transcript: Neil Sattin: Hello and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host, Neil Sattin. There is a lot going on in the world today. And of course, there's always a lot going on in the world today, but in particular, if you've been paying any attention to the news or to the Facebook or other forms of social media, then you're aware that front and center in today's world, along with the pandemic that's going on are issues of racial equity and justice and ways that we as a greater community can become more aware of what's happening in the world and also take action to improve our own situation and the situation of everyone around us in ways that are like a rising tide, where we all get to benefit from increased understanding and harmony and decreased acts of aggression or intolerance. Neil Sattin: And so, for today's episode, I wanted to tackle a particular topic that's actually come up a bunch in the Relationship Alive community on Facebook, and I've gotten a bunch of emails about it as well, and that's the topic of microaggressions. And we're going to go into what that even means, but basically, in a nutshell, these are the subtle ways that we do violence on each other or that we receive violence, and there... And I use the word violence intentionally, because I want you to recognize the importance of these things in detracting from the quality of interactions and relationships that we have with each other, but also because I think it's worth pointing out that these things are often very subtle, so they may be overt, but they may leave you or someone else with this subtle feeling that something just didn't go quite right. And we're going to dive more deeply into the topic of microaggressions, how they happen in your interactions out in the world, and in particular, how they impact your relationships with your beloved, with your partner. Neil Sattin: So in order to have this conversation today, we have one of the world's leading experts on understanding the impacts of microaggressions, or as I was just saying, subtle forms of discrimination on the mental and physical health of people of color, lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer people, women, other marginalized groups. His name is Dr. Kevin Nadal and he's a professor of psychology at both John Jay College of Criminal Justice and the Graduate Center at the City University of New York. Dr. Nadal received his Doctorate in Counseling Psychology from Columbia University, and I believe that he was... He worked a lot with Derald Wing Sue, who's also one of the world's leading researchers and authors about the topic of microaggressions. Kevin has also been featured widely in all forms of media, he was on... He was a hot topic on The View, and perhaps least importantly, although I'm really curious to know how this came about, so that I can maybe get my chance, but he was named one of People magazine's hottest bachelors in 2006. So, now that I'm single, maybe Kevin can give me some pointers on how to get People magazine's attention. Neil Sattin: In any case, we're here to have a very important conversation about the ways that you may be perpetuating racism or any sort of discrimination in your own life, in your relationships, and not even know it. Or maybe you're the recipient of it and this will help you articulate better what's going on. And along, of course, with talking about it, we're going to talk about what to do about it. So, as usual, we will have a detailed transcript of today's conversation, which you can grab by going to neilsattin.com/micro, M-I-C-R-O as in microaggressions, or as always you can text the word PASSION to the number 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript of today's show. Alright, I think that's it from me. Let's get on with the show, Dr. Kevin Nadal, thank you so much for joining us here today on Relationship Alive. Kevin Nadal: Thanks Neil, I'm happy to be here. Neil Sattin: Awesome, awesome. And we were just chatting earlier about how you're in New York, so you're in the place that was kind of pandemic central for a little while and the numbers are coming down, so hopefully that's helping you live a slightly more useful life in the big city with everything that's going on. Kevin Nadal: Yeah, things in New York are getting better, so hopefully day by day we'll be back to not exactly where we used to be, but an even stronger version of what New York has always been. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I'm right there with you, for sure. So Kevin, I'm wondering, can we just dive right in to... I know you probably heard my little cursory introduction of what microaggressions are, but... Kevin Nadal: Sure. Neil Sattin: You're the expert, so can you just summarize what is a microaggression? And I know there are a few different categories of microaggressions, so maybe we can just flesh that out for people a little bit more so that they have a sense of the kinds of things that we're talking about. Kevin Nadal: Sure. Your definition was very good. Let me just add a little bit to it. So microaggressions are the subtle, more unintentional forms of bias that might manifest between people. Oftentimes, microaggressions are things that are unconscious and that people aren't aware of them. Sometimes, people are aware that they are saying or doing something, but might not recognize the impact that it has on others. And microaggressions in general may have such a detrimental effect on people who experience them. I appreciate that you mentioned the idea of violence with microaggressions, because when we talk about microaggressions, we're not talking about the idea that they're so micro or they're so small that they don't have an impact. We're talking about the fact that they're sometimes so small that the accumulation of these experiences may have a detrimental impact on things such as mental health, on physical health, on even things like substance use and body image issues and educational attainment and things like that. There are several types of microaggressions that are theorized to exist. Interested in reading the transcript for the rest of this episode with about Microaggressions with Kevin Nadal?  Click here to download the full transcript of this episode!

WARNING: If you’re looking for the typical hope and optimism that you can find on Relationship Alive, then this might not be the episode for you! After 233 episodes focused on how to have an amazing relationship, it feels like it’s time to ask the obvious question: Why? Let’s turn things on their head for a moment. Perhaps getting into a relationship is actually a bad idea! In this week’s episode, I give myself permission to be a little jaded and cynical, and to talk about many of the ways that relationships can actually suck. And what you just might want to do instead. If you’re willing journey with me through the looking glass, there just might be something important revealed on the other side. As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it! Sponsors: Find a quality therapist, online, to support you and work on the places where you’re stuck. For 10% off your first month, visit Betterhelp.com/ALIVE to fill out the quick questionnaire and get paired with a therapist who’s right for you. Resources: Check out my Secrets of Relationship Communication COURSE for a masterclass in how to improve the communication and connection in your relationship. I want to know you better! Take the quick, anonymous, Relationship Alive survey FREE Guide to Neil’s Top 3 Relationship Communication Secrets Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner’s Needs) in Relationship (ALSO FREE) Support the podcast (or text “SUPPORT” to 33444) Amazing intro and outro music provided courtesy of The Railsplitters Transcript: Neil Sattin: Hello and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host, Neil Sattin. Neil Sattin: I'm going to start today with a little disclaimer, a disclaimer because this episode might not be the best thing to listen to if you are having challenges in your relationship, or if you are desperately seeking some hope and optimism. Because even though almost every single episode that I've done for the past nearly five years has been full of hope and optimism and positive energy around relationships, today's episode is going to be a little different. Neil Sattin: Here I am in moments feeling kind of jaded about relationships, and so I wanted to create a safe space to have that conversation, to have the conversation that questions relationships, that questions why we do it, that questions the consequences of being in relationship, and honestly, to give myself some license here to just be a little negative. Now, I'm not going to be... This episode isn't just going to be me railing about relationship because the converse of being negative about relationships is being positive about the alternatives, so it's not going to be all gloom and doom here but I did want to give myself the permission to just be who I'm being right now. And I have my good moments and I have my less than good moments, and so because I've shared so much of my own personal journey with you here on the show, I thought I'd share this part of the journey, too. Interested in reading the transcript for the rest of this episode?  Click here to download the full transcript of this episode!

Let’s put the theory aside for a minute. When it comes to having a successful, long-lasting relationship, what has actually worked for couples whose relationships have stood the test of time? In order to celebrate their 40th wedding anniversary, Marlo Thomas and Phil Donahue interviewed 40 famous couples in successful relationships, to discover the actual rubber-meets-the-road strategies that they use to navigate life’s challenges. The result - their bestselling book What Makes a Marriage Last -  has such a diverse amount of wisdom in its pages that you’re sure to find something new to add to your relationship skillset. Plus you’ll get a sneak peek behind the scenes into the intimate lives of some of America’s most beloved couples. As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it! Sponsors: Want something new to entertain you? Acorn TV is a commercial-free streaming service that’s rooted in British television. It’s home to sophisticated and artful storytelling with top-rated mysteries, dramas that pull you in, heart-felt comedies and so much more. So - Escape to Britain and beyond without leaving your seat. Try Acorn TV free for 30 days, by going to acorn.tv and using the promo code “ALIVE” at checkout. This episode is also sponsored by Native Deodorant. Their products are filled with ingredients you can find in nature like coconut oil, which is an antimicrobial, shea butter to moisturize, and tapioca starch to absorb wetness. They don’t ever test on animals, they don’t use aluminum or any other scary chemical ingredients, and they’re so confident that you’ll like their deodorant that they offer free shipping - and returns. For 20% off your first purchase, visit http://www.nativedeo.com/alive and use promo code ALIVE during checkout. Resources: Grab a copy of Marlo Thomas and Phil Donahue’s book What Makes a Marriage Last Check out my Secrets of Relationship Communication COURSE for a masterclass in how to improve the communication and connection in your relationship. I want to know you better! Take the quick, anonymous, Relationship Alive survey FREE Guide to Neil’s Top 3 Relationship Communication Secrets Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner’s Needs) in Relationship (ALSO FREE) Support the podcast (or text “SUPPORT” to 33444) Amazing intro and outro music provided courtesy of The Railsplitters Transcript: Neil Sattin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive, this is your host, Neil Sattin. What makes a marriage last? We can talk about the research, but in the end, it's where the rubber meets the road that matters most. For today's show, we have a special episode with some very special guests. They recently celebrated their 40th wedding anniversary by talking to 40 famous couples who all have long-standing marriages. So that we not only get a glimpse into the private lives of well-known people, which is interesting in and of itself, but we also get a sense of the special sauce that has helped them, each of them, stay together and connected over many, many years. There's also a moment in this interview that was perhaps, one of my most challenging as a host, when I asked the tough question that I was afraid might have actually taken my guest down for the count. Fortunately, as you'll hear, he's okay and his wife stepped in with a masterful answer to an important question. Neil Sattin: Their names are Marlo Thomas and Phil Donahue, and as I mentioned, they have now been married for more than 40 years. Marlo Thomas is an award-winning actress, best-selling author and activist, who has won four Emmys, a Golden Globe, a Grammy and the Presidential Medal of Freedom, among other awards. She's also the Outreach Director for Saint Jude's Children's Research Hospital. Phil Donahue is a writer, producer and journalist whose daytime talk show, The Donahue Show, was honored with 20 Emmy awards. He's also been inducted into the Academy of Television Arts & Sciences Hall of Fame and is a recipient of a George Foster Peabody Award. Together, they are the authors of the best-selling book, What Makes a Marriage Last, where as I mentioned, they have interviewed 40 celebrated couples about their relationships and the specific things that help them stay connected through the good times and the challenging times. Neil Sattin: It's a series of fascinating interviews with people like President Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter, LL Cool J and Simone Smith, Gloria and Emilio Estefan, Elton John and David Furnish, Michael J. Fox and Tracy Pollan, Sting and Trudie Styler, Deepak and Rita Chopra, Lily Tomlin and Jane Wagner. I'm not going to list them all here, but just know that each interview offers some interesting insights that just might help you take your relationship-ing skills to the next level. Interested in reading the transcript for the rest of this episode with Marlo Thomas and Phil Donahue?  Click here to download the full transcript of this episode!

In a relationship, it’s important to be able to accept your partner as they are. What if accepting your partner traps you in a relationship that isn’t healthy? What’s the balance between accepting your relationship as it is - and wanting to shift things without trying to turn your partner into someone different than who they are? If you value growth, and compassion...you can actually find yourself stuck in a bad relationship because of it! In today’s episode, we’re going to try to solve the “acceptance paradox” so that you can stay aligned with your values and still make a change. As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it! Sponsors: Find a quality therapist, online, to support you and work on the places where you’re stuck. For 10% off your first month, visit Betterhelp.com/ALIVE to fill out the quick questionnaire and get paired with a therapist who’s right for you. Resources: Check out my Secrets of Relationship Communication COURSE for a masterclass in how to improve the communication and connection in your relationship. I want to know you better! Take the quick, anonymous, Relationship Alive survey FREE Guide to Neil’s Top 3 Relationship Communication Secrets Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner’s Needs) in Relationship (ALSO FREE) Support the podcast (or text “SUPPORT” to 33444) Amazing intro and outro music provided courtesy of The Railsplitters Transcript: Neil Sattin: Hello and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host, Neil Sattin. There's a paradox in relationships, around the notion of acceptance, because we hold this ideal that the best thing possible for us to do is to accept our partner, to accept them as they are, and to accept them with compassion, to not try to change them, right? And to not be changed by our partners. And yet this creates a paradox in relationships, because what do you do when you can't accept it or when accepting it seemingly keeps you in a situation that's not healthy for you? Are you just supposed to accept everything? That's what we're going to cover in today's show. And I call it the acceptance paradox, because you might just find that when you find your way into it, that there's no way out of it. And today, I'm going to take a stab at solving the acceptance paradox for you, and for myself. I've been thinking about it a lot as a way of helping us transcend the potential pitfalls of being really accepting and compassionate. So that is what is in store in today's episode. Interested in reading the transcript to find out more about the Acceptance Paradox and how to escape it?  Click here to download the full transcript of this episode!

The quality of your life is directly related to the quality of the decisions that you make. So, when it comes to love - is there a way to make better choices and to identify your blind spots, to improve your chances of a long-lasting, thriving connection? Today’s guest, Logan Ury, is a Behavioral Scientist and author of the forthcoming book “How to Not Die Alone.” Along with being the Director of Relationship Science for the online dating app Hinge, Logan has done in-depth research into why we make the choices we make when it comes to love - and how to steer yourself towards the outcome most aligned with what you value and desire. Whether you’re single and looking, already in a relationship, or trying to decide whether to stay or go - today’s episode will help you get clear on the choices you’re facing. And, as always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you.  Join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it!  Sponsors: Find a quality therapist, online, to support you and work on the places where you’re stuck. For 10% off your first month, visit Betterhelp.com/ALIVE to fill out the quick questionnaire and get paired with a therapist who’s right for you. Resources:  Check out Logan Ury’s website where you can take her quiz to assess your “dating tendency”. FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide www.neilsattin.com/logan Visit to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with Logan Ury. Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out Transcript: Neil Sattin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host, Neil Sattin. The world of relationship-ing is based on a series of decisions that you make. You make a choice about whether or not you even want to be in a relationship. You make choices about the kinds of relationships you get into. We're making these kinds of choices all the time, and yet for many of us, we don't even realize that we're making choices. In fact, we kind of ease our way into situations, and we find ourselves there and you may ask yourself, "Well how did I get here?" in the words of David Byrne. We don't always necessarily know. And yet, the more aware you are of how you make your choices, your choices about how you date, who you date, how you enter into relationship, how you leave relationship. The more you're aware of what is actually going into that decision-making process, the better you'll be at making better decisions. Neil Sattin: And of course, relationship is an iterative process. We do it over and over again, hopefully getting better each time. It doesn't always work out that way. But in today's episode, we are going to talk explicitly about how we make these decisions and how to improve upon them, and some potential pitfalls that can lead us astray along the way. In order to have this conversation, I've invited a dear friend, who's also an esteemed behavioral scientist, her name is Logan Ury, and she and I have actually been together in a relationship Mastermind group for almost... No, it's been a little over a year now. We just celebrated our year anniversary as a group. Neil Sattin: And it's been a great way to come to know her and her insightful ways of looking at the ways that we make choices about how and who we date. She also works as a dating coach and a matchmaker. And she is also working currently for the dating app, Hinge which I'm sure she'll have more to say about as we get into our conversation. As usual, you will be able to download the transcript of this conversation by visiting neilsattin.com/logan. That's L-O-G-A-N. Neil Sattin: Or you can always text the word PASSION to the number 33444 and follow the instructions. And I think that Logan also has a quiz available on her website and we'll give you a link so that you can take her quiz and find out about who you are as a dater or who you've been as a dater. And anyway, let's just get started. So Logan Ury, it's a pleasure to have you here with us today on Relationship Alive. Logan Ury: Neil, thank you so much for having me. It's been really fun getting to know you over the last year in our relationships group, and I'm super happy to be on the podcast. Neil Sattin: Awesome. Well I'm psyched to have you here as well. And mostly because, along with being a great person, you have some fascinating wisdom about what makes us tick. So I'm wondering if you can just give a quick synopsis of your background, how did you get to merging the world of behavioral science and dating and love and relationships? Logan Ury: Sure, yeah. I'm happy to jump right into that. Neil Sattin: Great. Logan Ury: So, I studied psychology in college, and I've always been really interested in how people think, how people make decisions. So I studied psychology with an emphasis on women, gender and sexuality. And then a funny story is, that actually my first job out of college was working at Google and I managed the advertising for a bunch of porn advertisers, so our group was colloquially known as the Porn Pod. Logan Ury: And that was an interesting first year out of college. And then later, I had the opportunity to lead a behavioral science team at Google and that was called the Irrational Lab, and behavioral science is the study of how we make decisions. So we know that people are often really irrational and they make decisions that are not in their own best interest. But what's cool is that these irrationalities don't just happen randomly, they're predictable. So if you understand, okay, people tend to make this type of a mistake in this type of situations, you could actually help shift their behavior. Logan Ury: So I was doing that at Google, I was really enjoying it, but at the same time I was just fascinated by dating and relationships. I was single, I was using dating apps, and I started a YouTube series at Google called Talks at Google, Modern Romance. And I would bring in people like John Gottman, Esther Perel, Dan Savage to talk about dating and relationships. Logan Ury: And a few years later, I just realized this dating and relationship stuff is really what I'm interested in, it's my passion, it's my calling. And when I thought about how I could make my contribution to that world, I thought, "Well, I have this knowledge of how people make decisions, why not apply that to dating and relationships?" And what that's looked like for the last few years is doing a residency at TED, where I got to do a project and gave a TED Talk about dating and relationships, and also now writing this book about how to apply the ideas of behavioral science to finding a relationship and creating a great relationship. Neil Sattin: Right, I didn't even mention that in the intro, but it's important to know that you have written this book. It's actually not due out until February of 2021, around Valentine's Day. So you, as a listener, are getting a sneak peak into Logan's... Into Logan's work, because I got a sneak peek at the book, which was a big privilege. And that... I'm curious about this sense of us as irrational decision makers, because one thing that became clear as I was reading your book or maybe it was clear because this is what you were emphasizing, is that there are all of these laws, let's just call them, about... That describe how we make decisions poorly. And it made me start to wonder if we are just inherently predisposed to be kind of bad decision makers, and if we actually do need training around making better and better decisions. And I wonder if that's true from your perspective, that there's... The way that we kinda come through the mill as we grow up and are just exposed to life, and the reason that these laws exist in behavioral science is because in general, we actually don't really know what we're doing. Logan Ury: Yeah, I would agree with that. I would say, in general, I think we often make decisions that are against our own best interest. And some of the areas where this comes up often are eating healthier, working out or saving money. So if I said to most people, "Would you like to save more money?" they would say, "Yes." But then in a moment where they have the chance to save or spend, a lot of people... A lot of people spend. And that's why I think I read recently that the average American does not have $400 available if there were to be some sort of emergency, so, clearly, we're all having trouble saving. And similarly, people say, "Oh, I want to lose weight. I want to eat healthier," but then in the moment, when you're faced with getting a burger or a salad, a lot of us just choose what feels good in the moment and we'll get that burger. Logan Ury: And there's different reasons for this, so one of them is called the present bias, which sounds fairly obvious, but it's basically that we disproportionately measure things based on how good they feel in the present, and we don't think as much about the future. And there's a whole list, there's a whole catalog of these cognitive biases, which is just a fancy way of saying, "Reasons why we make mistakes in our decision-making," and it happens in all areas of life, but I think it's really fascinating to study how it affects us in love and relationships. And as I write about in the book, sometimes when I talk about this, people push back and they say, "Oh, that's insane. You can't be rational in love." And it's not that I'm going for rationality. It's not that I want people to be some sort of super computer that says like, "Input, input. Alright, these five daters plus this situation equals... This is the best person for your soulmate. Beep boop." It's not like that. [laughter] Logan Ury: It's not... It's not... [chuckle] It's not any sort of algorithm, it's much more just saying like, "Hey, these are cognitive biases, these are invisible forces that often get in people's way and if you can understand them and you can avoid those mistakes, then you can start to make better decisions and hopefully, wind up in the loving relationships of your dreams." Neil Sattin: Yeah, and most of the time, without an awareness of what those biases would be, then you're just doomed. And, in fact, as I read bias after bias in your book, I was like, "Oh my gosh." Each one just shows you how we are set up to fail potentially. Logan Ury: Was there one that stuck out to you? I'm just curious, I know you just read it. Was there one that's got to you where you're like, "Oh, this helps me understand either this thing that I've done in dating or this thing that I've done in other areas of my life?" And just to put you on the spot, is there one that you remember? Interested in reading the transcript for the rest of this episode with Logan Ury?  Click here to download the full transcript of this episode!