The Deep Map

Looking back on the first three months of The Deep Map, Robert reflects on why he started the podcast, what he learned in Season One, and where he’s headed in Season Two. “The Deep Map,” he says, “is a civilizational podcast…premised on the idea that deep things, big things, invisible things, unite people across ethnic and national boundaries.” Going into the next season, he remains convinced that the clash and occasional convergence of those civilizations is the real secret of global affairs.

It is impossible to talk about Armenia without talking about the Armenian Apostolic Church. Thanks to the evangelization efforts of apostles St. Thaddeus and St. Bartholomew, the Armenians converted en masse in 301 AD and have preserved their distinctive tradition ever since despite Persian, Arab, Mongol, Turkish, and Russian invasion and colonization. With Christmas just over the horizon (Jan 6), Robert and Mariam travel to the sacred city of Echmiadzin, sometimes called the “Armenian Vatican,” to talk with Father Garegin Hambardzumyan about the Armenian Church, the secret of its inner strength, and its indispensable role in sustaining this beleaguered nation for the last seventeen centuries.    Fr. Garegin Hambardzumyan leads the Department of Christian Education and the Department of the Preservation of the Cultural Heritage of Nagorno-Karabakh (Artsakh) at the Gevorkian Theological Seminary of Holy Echmiadzin. He received his PhD in Biblical Studies from the University of Sheffield.  Episode Highlights  [00:02:30] Fr. Garegin’s journey to the priesthood  [00:08:27] Significance of Etchmiadzin in the Armenian Apostolic Church  [00:09:24] Armenian evangelization and the adoption of Christianity as the State religion in 301 AD  [00:14:00] The significance of the Armenian Apostolic Church in the history of Christendom  [00:17:31] Comparing and contrasting Eastern and Western Christianity  [00:20:54] Faith in the diaspora: adapting and cross-pollinating  [00:22:58] Is there a theological significance to the Armenian Genocide?  [00:28:08] The ins and outs of Armenian Christmas  [00:33:42] Armenia’s resilience over the centuries and its strength in Christianity  [00:41:00] Nagorno-Karabakh: preserving faith and culture in dire circumstances  [00:51:09] What are Armenian values?    Further Reading Hratch Tchilingirian, “Why Do Armenians Celebrate Christmas on January 6th?” UK Diocese of the Armenian Apostolic Church. Fr. Dr. Zaven Arzoumanian, Theology of the Armenian Apostolic Church: Introduction, Western US Diocese of the Armenian Church. [Dowloadable PDF] Archived Lectures, St. Nersess Seminary (Armonk, New York). Ancient Faith: The Churches of Nagorno-Karabakh, Museum of the Bible (Washington, DC). Krikor and Clara Zohrab Information Center (New York, NY).  

In a famous 1529 essay, the Protestant reformer Martin Luther described the Turks as the “rod of the wrath of the Lord our God” -- but Luther isn’t alone in playing up the violent tendencies of an entire nation. Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians, Bulgarians, Russians, Serbs, and Arabs all have sayings about the Turks, none of which are very flattering. But who are the Turkic peoples who rule countries like Türkiye and Azerbaijan today? What are some of the national and religious narratives that shape their view of the world? And why do their leaders seem so determined to eradicate Armenians from their homeland? In this bonus episode, Robert sits down with Uzay Bulut, a dissident Turkish journalist and senior research fellow at The Philos Project, to answer these questions in a moving discussion about coming-of-age in a repressed society. Uzay Bulut is a journalist, political analyst, and Senior Research Fellow at The Philos Project. Her writings have appeared in Modern Diplomacy, Washington Times, Christian Post, Jewish News Syndicate, Al-Ahram Weekly, Gatestone Institute, American Spectator, Providence Magazine, and Jerusalem Post.  She has participated in the 2018 Human Dimension Implementation Meeting of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) and the 2019 Oslo Freedom Forum of the Human Rights Foundation, where she raised issues of human rights in Türkiye and other regions.   Highlights  [00:02:30] Uzay’s upbringing in a Turkish nationalist stronghold and what led her to become a journalist and Turkish dissident  [00:12:53] Overview of the Turkish/Kemalist nationalist narrative   [00:15:46] The Turkish nationalist take on the Armenian Genocide and the history of the indigenous Christian and Jewish communities in the region  [00:25:07] Overview of Erdogan’s AK Party and its blending of Islamism and Turkish Nationalism  [00:32:06] Turkish influence beyond Turkey: Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, etc.  [00:33:10] The dream of a pan-Turkic superstate and the enduring Armenian obstacle  [00:40:23] Future of Armenia: is normalization with Turkey and Azerbaijan prudent?  [00:44:48] How the United States can protect Armenians and other Christian minorities from Turkish aggression    Further Reading Sheri Oz, “Exiled non-Jewish Turkish woman studies antisemitism in Turkey. Interview with Uzay Bulut,” Israel National News (Dec. 27, 2022). Uzay Bulut, “Azerbaijan Desecrates Armenian Cultural and Religious Heritage,” Providence (Dec. 13, 2022). Uzay Bulut, “Azerbaijan Is Torturing and Beheading Armenians,” Providence (Dec. 5, 2022). Uzay Bulut, “Who Are the Extremist 'Grey Wolves'?” Gatestone Institute (Nov. 29, 2021). Uzay Bulut, “Azerbaijan and Turkey’s genocidal assault against Armenians,” Modern Diplomacy (Dec. 16, 2020).

The last five years have been anything but easy for Armenia. After a 2020 war, a 2022 invasion, and most recently, a blockade of 120,000 Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh, Armenians today are desperately seeking allies to ensure their security and independence in their ancestral homeland. This week, Robert and Mariam sit down with Eric Hacopian, an Armenian-American political strategist, to discuss the dilemmas of a tiny country surrounded by stronger neighbors, stranded in a sea of tyranny. Is Armenia more “Western” or “Eastern”?  Is it really a client state of Russia and Iran? Is a peace deal between Armenia and Azerbaijan truly possible? Finally, could a strong US-Armenia alliance serve both nations? Eric Hacopian is a 30-year veteran of American politics, having worked on campaigns from the local to the presidential level. For the past 23 years, he has been the principle at EDH & Associates, a Southern California-based Democratic consulting firm. In 2017, he and his family moved from Los Angeles to Armenia. Highlights [00:01:53] Eric’s journey from Iran to the US, and ultimately, to his homeland of Armenia.  [00:04:30] Armenia’s 2018 Velvet Revolution and its culture of freedom and solidarity  [00:10:45] The Second Nagorno-Karabakh War: major players and major losses [00:15:30] The Russia-Ukraine War, the Azeri regime, and joint Russian-Azeri Aggression  [00:20:00] 2022 September invasion of internationally recognized Armenian territory: the collapse of the Russian position, the death of the peace camp, and an American opportunity  [00:24:30] Armenia vs. the world: life on an island  [00:29:58] Is Armenia more “Western” or “Eastern”?  [00:35:30] The changing world: will Armenia and Azerbaijan normalize relations?  [00:37:25] Armenia’s affinity for the United States, the myth of the Armenia-Iran alliance, and the broad rejectionism of Soviet ideology  [00:44:54] Armenia’s Christian character and the Western bias against the Christians of the East  [00:48:41] The Armenian diaspora: incredible success yet unrealized potential  [00:52:03] Where can Western Christians find common ground with their Armenian brothers and sisters?  [1:00:54] Universalizing your story: what other minority Christian communities can learn from Armenians 

“Armenia is not even a colony, it is not even worthy of being a servant.” That’s the president of Azerbaijan, Armenia’s Turkish Muslim neighbor, telling the world in 2015 how he really feels about the Christian nation on his western border. Today, as this episode goes live, Azerbaijan is besieging 120,000 Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh as part of a long-term plan to eradicate Armenians from the region. For Armenians, this long-term plan goes back to the Turkish Muslim genocide of a century ago. In this episode, Robert and his colleague Mariam Wahba talk with Armen Sahakyan about that genocide and its connection to the ongoing assault on Armenians in the South Caucasus. Armen V. Sahakyan is a Philos Project Advisory Board Member and an instructor at the American University of Armenia. Before that, he led the Armenian National Committee of America (Western Region) for three years and the Eastern Region office for four. Armen holds an MA in International Relations and International Economics from the Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies and BA in International Political Economy from Bloomfield College. His writing has appeared in various outlets, including The National Interest, The Hill, The Christian Science Monitor, Asia Times, and Providence Magazine. Follow him on Twitter at @ArmenVS.  Further Reading: Devin Watkins, “Pope Expresses Concern over Humanitarian Situation in South Caucasus,” Vatican News (Dec. 18, 2022). Uzay Bulut, “Azerbaijan is Torturing and Beheading Armenians,”Providence (Dec. 5, 2022). Remarks by Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Ilham Aliyev on the Two-Year Anniversary of the 2020 Karabakh war. Benny Morris & Dror Ze’evi, The Thirty-Year Genocide: Turkey's Destruction of Its Christian Minorities, 1894–1924 (Harvard University Press, 2019).

The oldest Christian nation in the world is about to celebrate the birth of Jesus amid growing tensions with its Muslim-majority neighbor, Azerbaijan. How Armenia – a tiny country of 3 million people sandwiched between Azerbaijan, Turkey, Georgia, Russia, and Iran – can survive the chaos of regional politics is unclear. In this episode, Robert and his Philos Project colleague Mariam Wahba sit down with Lara Setrakian, an award-winning Armenian-American journalist, to understand why Armenia matters, what it stands for, and why she moved her family back in these troubled times. Lara Setrakian is the co-founder and CEO of News Deeply and a former Middle East correspondent for ABC and Bloomberg TV. She is a graduate of Harvard University.

Is the Israel we knew gone? In this bonus episode, Robert offers his thoughts on the question after a month-long investigation into Israel's recent elections. Along the way, he touches on Israel's religious and cultural evolution, the power of meta-narratives in politics, the two faces of the Jewish tradition, and Christianity's (theoretical) immunity to panic. The upshot? Israel is indeed changing, but not as wildly as many believe.

The Hebrew word for “tradition” comes from the same root as the English word: derived from the verb “to transmit,” it means to pass something down through time. When it comes to the deep map, tradition is everything – it’s the place where religion, culture, history, and memory converge. Once you start peeling back the layers of any social or political conflict, you’re almost certain to find a hidden battle over some intangible heritage, with defenders of that heritage on one side, opponents on the other, or, quite often, rival heirs of the same tradition locked in a fight to the finish.   As it turns out, the conflict within Israel’s political system is no different. In this episode, the last of the series, Robert sits down with Shahar Azani. Azani is a passionate advocate for Israel, Senior Vice President at JBS, Jewish Broadcasting Service, former Executive Director for StandWithUs in New York and a former Israeli diplomat at Israel’s Foreign Ministry for over 16 years - including Israel’s consulates in Los Angeles and New York. Before embarking on this career path, he practiced Law at Haim Zadok and Company, based in Tel Aviv, focusing on litigation. He has a law degree (LLB) as well as a Master’s in Business Administration (MBA).

Is Israel becoming more hawkish, religious, and tribal -- or just more “Middle Eastern”? Trying to understand the latest elections, Robert sits down with Canadian-Israeli journalist Matti Friedman to talk about culture in the Holy Land: what it is, what it's perceived to be, how it's changing, and what those changes might mean for the future. What do Israeli pop songs tell us about the zeitgeist? How does Itamar Ben Gvir's family roots in Iraq help explain his politics? Which experience better forecasts relations between Arabs and Israelis: the Abraham Accords of 2020, or the violent riots committed by Arab-Israeli citizens just a few months later? Matti Friedman is a prominent Canadian-Israeli journalist and award-winning author. He previously served as an Associated Press (AP) correspondent and has written op-eds and essays for a number of notable publications including the New York Times, Smithsonian Magazine, and The Atlantic. He is the author of four non-fiction books on Israel, including his newest work, Who by Fire, the story of Leonard Cohen's concert tour to the front lines during the Yom Kippur War. Matti currently writes a monthly feature for Tablet Magazine and resides in Jerusalem with his family.

We are all the sum of our stories – and Israelis are no different. In this episode, Robert catches up with Amb. Michael Oren to probe the latest Israeli elections in more depth, zeroing in on the hidden stories that animate the country’s voters as they pick candidates and shape the future of the country. Drawing upon a lifetime of Forrest Gump-like experiences and his own career as a storyteller, Amb. Oren opens up about his own meta-narrative(s) and how they’ve guided him through four decades in the arena. Along the way he touches on antisemitism, faith, leadership, courage, “seeing,” and a range of other topics. And all to the sweet sounds of Muzak as he sits in the lobby of a New Orleans hotel. Dr. Michael Oren is an American-born Israeli historian, author, politician, soldier, and former ambassador to the United States (2009–2013). His latest book is Swann’s War, a historical fiction “whodunit” set in the final years of World War II.