In this episode of the EIS Navigator we get a great founder story. Despite not having a medical background, Clare Brenner founded Myogenes which specialises in pharmocogenetic testing. She has a very personal story about her motivation for initially focusing on mental health to begin with, as well as her experiences in starting in a new area.In the discussion, Clare talks about:how she found a good area to work onthe initial focus on clozapinewhy she seeks out the best people to work withthe challenges of getting initial fundinghow patient advocacy is playing a rolemaking a business case to convince the NHSmoving into the US marketwhere we are in developing personalised medicineClare's story is both inspiring and insightful, as well as being a great follow-on to the previous episode about female founders. 00:45 Clare introduces Myogenes04:55 establishing proof of concept06:40 how she found a test08:30 how does the test work and the importance of working with doctors11:50 finding the top people15:00 why she focused on clozapine 18:00 how they developed the test 19:00 founding the company 21:00 marketing into the NHS: establishing cost/benefit and business impact models25:00 progress with individual health trusts28:00 the role of patient/family lobbying29:00 getting funding for preventative medicine32:30 moving into the US37:10 where are we in personalised medicine41:00 prospects for Myogenes 43:45 Favourite questionsLinksMyogenes website - https://www.myogenes.com/Telephone - 020 8387 1266Subscribe to the EIS Navigator podcast on most services here: https://the-eis-navigator.captivate.fm/listenSuggested books and mediaThe Diary of a CEO by Steven BartlettBioClare Brenner, Founder & CEO, MyogenesClare Brenner, CEO & Co-founder Clare began her working career at the BBC, moving from radio to television and then to writing and producing. Her interest in genetics started in 2010 working for a private hospital and launching their DNA testing programme. She started on her own in 2016 and has dedicated the last six years to becoming expert in the field of genetics and forming her own company Myogenes.

Nick Dimmock founded 350PPM as an incubator for various environmental businesses, but has followed a different path from many incubators. In this episode, he discusses how he developed the 350PPM business model, developing companies more generally and the state of environmental investing.Amongst other items, Nick discusses:how he developed 350PPM's business modelthe importance of the right systembalancing doing things for a company versus developing internal capabilitieshandling areas that are capital intensivewhere we are in the demand cycle for environmental investmentshow we generate more interest in themthe need for political support and changeNick is naturally forthright and brings some strong opinions which make for a very interesting conversation.01:50 Nick introduces himself05:00 what 350PPM is and does07:40 how did the business model develop - developing a system13:00 doing stuff for a company vs developing internal capability18:35 what sorts of companies are of interest and why22:35 capital intensity27:30 demand for environmental investments31:45 how do we sustain interest in environmental investments33:00 need for removal of subsidies39:40 next steps41:15 Favourite questionsLinks350PPM website - https://350ppm.co.uk/Subscribe to the EIS Navigator podcast on most services here: https://the-eis-navigator.captivate.fm/listenSuggested books and mediaWhat You See is What You Get by Alan SugarBillionaire: The Life and Times of Sir James Goldsmith by Ivan FallonThe Fifth Risk: Undoing Democracy by Michael LewisBioNick Dimmock, Founder & CEO, 350PPMNick has worked in the environmental sector since 2007 and has so far been involved in over 50 environmental projects from Municipal Solid Waste Composting in India, to 1500 MW Hydroelectric projects in Ecuador. Overall, the projects Nick has been involved in have created on-going emission reductions over 9 Million tons of CO2e per annum. From 2017, Nick has been involved with incubating, accelerating and venture building early stage cleantech businesses.

Software-as-a-Service (SaaS) founders rightly focus on their product and market, but sound finances underpin any success. Anthony Nitsos founded fractional CFO business SaaS Gurus after working in a couple of successful exits. He has seen the inside of many SaaS businesses so has lots of experience in developing good practice and seeing the mistakes that founders make. In this episode, we tap into that knowledge.Amongst other topics, Anthony discusses:balancing different financial metricssensible gross margin targets and when companies should be hitting themchanges in SaaS valuation multiplesthe value of market expertise in generating successsales cycles and how they differ in B2B and B2Cfinding the right first sales person and who the next recruits should bewhen to bring in a CFO (and its earlier than most think)the value of benchmarkingthe difference between finance and accounting in companieshow to prepare for an exitIts a great conversation, with Anthony bringing lots of insights from his vast expertise for founders and investors alike.00:50 Anthony introduces himself04:45 what financial metrics matter and the difference between venture-backed and bootstrapped businesses09:45 gross margin - good targets and when you should be hitting them13:30 how valuation multiples have changed in SaaS15:45 patterns in CAC and trends in software purchasers18:05 how to you know you have product/market fit 20:00 difference in sales cycles between B2B and B2C23:30 the value of market knowledge and how startups are not for on the job training 24:30 why its easier to move from enterprise to SME than vice versa25:45 how finding the right first sales person is the biggest challenge31:45 building a sales team37:00 when to bring in a CFO39:30 the merits of building finance function when its pre-revenue42:20 the value of benchmarking43:15 most companies have problems45:00 the difference between accounting and finance49:20 preparing for exits - how acquirers look at finances 56:00 why founders should know what short of exit they want60:00 favourite questionsLinksSaaS Gurus website - https://saasgurus.io/Free ebook on "SaaS Secrets for Financial Triumph" - https://saasgurus.io/labSaaS Gurus contact page - https://saasgurus.io/contact/Subscribe to the EIS Navigator podcast on most services here: https://the-eis-navigator.captivate.fm/listenSuggested books and mediaMeasure What Matters by John DoerrDuneBioAnthony Nitsos, Founder & CEO, SaaS GurusAnthony Nitsos elevates your financial strategy to meet challenges and drive your company value. Working with pre-seed to Series B stage SaaS startups, he ensures that founders have reliable metrics and a solid understanding of the true economics of their business to maximize valuation. He optimizes financial operations, sales operations, human resources operations, and risk management systems. He’s worked with various startups, including two unicorn exists. Learn more at SaaSGurus.io.

Rob Bell, an expert in EIS funds and VCTs, discusses choosing the right scheme for clients, diversification strategies, assessing manager track records, SEIS in financial planning, specialist vs generalist managers, ESG and impact investments, and improving investor perception of venture capital.

Manufacturing and operations is an area that has been much neglected by venture capital, but has plenty of issues that can be address. Renan Devillieres of venture builder OSS Ventures focuses on this space, with distinct methods and successful results. In this episode we discuss how he goes about creating successful new businesses, with very good results to date.In a wide ranging discussion, Renan discusses:what is venture buildingthe process for finding pain points in factorieshow Renan characterises different operations why there is still so much low hanging fruit in this areawhat sorts of manufacturers are open to changehow to make sure there is enough initial customers and how to work with themworking with different tech stackshow to make sure that companies don't customise for specific clientsmaking the OSS fire itself from each companythe different markets and sales processes he seesfinding the right founders and the skill sets they needthe effect of AIhow the global manufacturing model of the past 30 years is changing nowIts a great conversation with lots of insights from Renan and a must listen for investors and founders who want to build successful businesses.01:30 Renan introduces himself02:45 introduction to OSS04:00 what is venture building?09:00 finding pain points in factories13:15 how the regulatory environment can affect go-to-market strategies17:30 why is there so much low hanging fruit21:00 how different manufacturers are stuck or open to change 25:30 finding the first customers 29:00 working with clients to build viable solutions without customising too much32:00 how the OSS team fires itself37:00 how different software has different sales and decision making processes41:20 the necessary founder skills44:15 how AI is affecting manufacturing49:10 trends in manufacturing and how its all changing now55:30 favourite questionsLinksOSS Ventures website - https://www.oss.ventures/Subscribe to the EIS Navigator podcast on most services here: https://the-eis-navigator.captivate.fm/listenSuggested books and mediaThe Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck by Mark MansonEmpty Planet by Darrell Bricker & John IbbitsonBioRenan Devillières, CEO OSS VenturesA graduate of the Ecole Normale Supérieure and the Ecole Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne, Renan began his career as a consultant at McKinsey, before becoming an economist at the OECD and then strategic project manager for the Richemont Group. After his various experiences, Renan launched into entrepreneurship by founding a start-up, which he later sold. Having always been attracted to tech and industry, Renan co-founded OSS Ventures in 2019 with the mission of supporting French industry in its technological, environmental, social and societal transition from industry 2.0 to industry 4.0.

Governance is all too often seen in startup companies as a chore, or necessary evil when it can be a positive and enable success. Dermot Campbell, founder of CEEIO, is trying bring more of the latter to the venture world. In this episode, he discusses how startups can enable good governance without spending too much time on it and make it a means to the right end rather than an end in itself.Dermot covers a lot of areas, including:what is governancethe importance of maintaining stakeholder relationshipswhen startups should start introducing governance structureshow governance should lead growthwho should take the lead on board creationthe role of fund managersgood preparation for board meetingsbuilding effective board agendasthe value in identifying riskssetting up risk assessments and how these can lead to key objectiveshow to generate relevant KPIshow to translate a business plan into something usefulgenerating the right boardthe commons mistakes made by foundersthe rise of ESG and how its different in startups from quoted companiesWhether you are a founder looking to put governance into place or an investor helping or wanting a company to do it, this is an essential discussion.01:00 Dermot introduces himself02:00 What is SEEIO03:10 What is governance04:20 the importance of maintaining stakeholder relationships05:40 importance of creating a governance framework06:15 how should new startups approach governance08:40 when to create the board09:45 who takes the lead11:30 role of fund managers12:30 the work in preparing for board meetings15:00 don't just sell - value in identify risks16:30 setting up appropriate risk assessment 20:30 how to use a business plan and use it to generate objectives22:10 working on KPIs24:00 building effective board agendas27:20 generating the right board and founder relationship with them30:30 role of independent NEDs in startups32:10 what mistakes do founders make33:30 value of governance in improving odds for fundraising35:50 rise of ESG and how investors care about G - G facilitates E & S42:20 favourite questionsLinksSEEIO website - https://seeio.co.uk/Dermot on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/dermot-campbell-3178a326/Subscribe to the EIS Navigator podcast on most services here: https://the-eis-navigator.captivate.fm/listenSuggested books and mediaThe Go To Market Handbook for B2B SaaS Leaders by Richard BlunderMEDDICC: The ultimate guide to staying one step ahead in the complex sale by Andy WhyteBioDermot CampbellCEO, SEEIODermot Campbell is an experienced fintech leader, known for founding Kuber Ventures and building it up to be a key player in the alternative investment platform sector. As CEO of SEEIO, he's transforming corporate governance for startup and scaleup SMEs. His expertise spans wealth management, financial planning, and navigating regulatory environments.   Prior to becoming a startup founder, Dermot was a Chartered Wealth Manager and in his early career he was an airline pilot.

Getting big returns in venture capital can involve stepping away from the mainstream and investing in opportunities that others won't. Will Gibbs of Octopus Ventures has a reputation for investing in areas others see as taboo. We ask him about being a contrarian investor, how to do it well and what needs to change to create a successful investment.In a discussion filled with numerous examples, Will discusses:getting big enough markets when the market is somewhat hiddenbalancing new technology and new marketswhen specialist investors are neededjudging whether a company will be ripe for follow-on investmenthow taboo investments can interact with social changesequencing market expansionwhat a company needs to internationalisewhat problems that internationalising doesn't solvebuilding deal flow in taboo areashow the venture capital industry is creating some of the problemsthe value of team diversity in looking away from consensus areaswhether valuations are different in taboo areas.In a wide ranging conversation, Will brings a great perspective on how to bring mainstream venture capital skills to genuinely new areas. Its a great discussion for investors and companies who dare to be different. Enjoy!01:00 Will introduces himself03:40 Who Octopus Ventures are06:30 Contrarian and tabooo investing 07:45 Example: Elvie - silent breast pump09:50 Example: Pelago - substance use disorder13:20 the size of taboo markets, challenges in assessing true market size16:00 new tech and new markets - need for specialists17:30 Example Overture - improving and automating IVF19:20 market meets social movements - will someone follow-on?22:05 assessing the pace of social change - risk of too early25:30 sequencing the right national / international markets25:45 Example Skin & Me - getting expansion right and not too quick29:30 Time and capital to internationalise31:00 when is the right or wrong time to internationalise33:30 building deal flow in taboo areas35:15 to what extent is the venture capital industry part of the problem - value of diversity 38:05 is the industry going in the right direction?40:00 are valuations different in taboo areas?42:35 creating communities supporting companies47:45 prospects50:20 Favourite questionsLinksOctopus Investments: https://octopusinvestments.com/Octopus Ventures website: https://octopusventures.com/Companies mentioned:Pelago https://www.pelagohealth.com/Overture https://www.overture.life/Vira https://www.vira.health/Elvie https://www.elvie.com/en-gbSkin and me https://www.skinandme.com/Subscribe to the EIS Navigator podcast on most services here: https://the-eis-navigator.captivate.fm/listenSuggested books and mediaEssentialism by Greg McKeownIn the Company of Givers and Takers by Adam Grant (article) https://hbr.org/2013/04/in-the-company-of-givers-and-takersBioWill GibbsHealthtech Partmer, Octopus VenturesWill joined Octopus in 2013 and sits in its Health team. He works with portfolio companies from consumer to enterprise, with a strong bias towards businesses making the biggest impacts on health.In recent years he has explored taboo areas within health, resulting in multiple new investments around this theme, from substance addiction to LGBT sexual health. He’s also passionate about the potential for digital therapeutics to deliver superior outcomes for some conditions, US expansion, the future of cannabinoids and novel business models within health.Will was based in Octopus' US office in New York during 2016, and continues to support portfolio companies looking to expand into the US health market. Many of his portfolio companies are based in the US, and he invests alongside big global investors like SoftBank Group, Kinnevik, Atomico and EQT Partners.Will is also a vocal champion of diversity and LGBT issues and is happily married to his husband Christopher.He founded multiple startups before joining Octopus Ventures, including a rare-breed pig farm and an organic spirits company.Will holds a degree in ancient history and classical archaeology from the University of Oxford. https://www.linkedin.com/in/willgibbs1/

Valuations are always a popular topic. With much discussion about whether we are at the bottom of the current cycle, it seems a good time to revisit and we invited back someone who has experienced several market cycles: John Glencross, co-founder of Calculus Capital. We had a great discussion on how the current market, how this compares with recent times and how a fund manager handles them. Topics discussed include:how companies are accepting lower valuationsthe danger of growth at any pricewhere there are still bubbles and what the consequences of these might behow to manage investing when valuations are highthe psychology of down rounds preferential return structures and what John is seeing in the marketreal unicorns versus valuation aberrationshow valuation matters for investinghow Calculus values existing portfolioJohn's sense of valuations in the EIS & VCT market and where he thinks the discrepancies arehow close we are to the bottom of the valuation cycleTalking with someone who has seen several downturns gave a great perspective on all these topics and there's lots for all advisers and investors. Enjoy!01:00 John introduces himself04:30 recent exit patterns06:00 companies accepting lower valuations attraction of investment vs exits07:30 avoiding growth at any price - US vs UK10:15 where there is still bubbles 13:15 investing when valuations are high - changed pace of investments in recent years16:45 the psychology of down rounds18:45 preferential return structures and the general tightening of terms in market26:00 when are unicorns a market aberration?28:30 how valuation matters for investing31:10 portfolio valuation - lags, being realistic and getting a good process35:00 how EIS managers are using unrealised performance as marketing, but its not similar to exits41:00 what is an acceptable band of uncertainty? How exits matter 44:15 are we at the bottom of the valuation cycle? 48:45 favourite questionsLinksCalculus Capital website: https://www.calculuscapital.com/Subscribe to the EIS Navigator podcast on most services here: https://the-eis-navigator.captivate.fm/listenSuggested books and mediaSunshine & ShadowsThe Four Agreements by Don Miguel RuizSing as We Go by Simon HefferBioJohn GlencrossChief Executive and Cofounder, Calculus CapitalJohn co-founded Calculus with Susan McDonald in 1999, creating one of the UK’s most successful, independent private equity firms focused on investing in entrepreneurial young British companies. John has over 30 years’ experience in private equity, corporate finance, and operational management. During that time, he has invested in, advised on or negotiated more than 100 transactions and served on publicly quoted and private corporate boards. Before co-founding Calculus, John served as a European Corporate Finance Director at UBS and, prior to this he was Head of Mergers and Acquisitions at Phillips and Drew, a 100-year-old London-based financial institution. At the start of his career, John qualified as a Chartered Accountant with Peat Marwick (subsequently KPMG), where he then went on to be recruited as a founder member of Deloitte’s newly established consultancy practice in the Gulf Region and then Corporate Finance practice in London. John graduated from Oxford University with an MA (Hons) in Philosophy, Politics and Economics.

When we last spoke with Harry Heartfield of Edition, the leisure sector was all about recovering the pandemic. Fortunately, we have moved on so we thought it was time to get him back to discuss where we are now, how his investment philosophy has evolved and what the prospects for exits are now.We covered a lot areas in our discussion, including:the unevenness of the current recoverythe difference that geography and target market makesthe need to rebalance portfolio risk nowhow live entertainment and hospitality are doinghow to run live events professionally and Edition's role in supporting thatprospects for exitshow the landscape of purchasers looksthe challenges of making rollups workwhy profitability matters more than everhow and why to set up EIS deals six months in advanceIts another great discussion - Harry is both erudite and insightful, and the lessons are not just about the leisure sector . Enjoy!00:50 Harry introduces himself03:00 Why Edition is more than a fund manager05:00 How does the leisure sector feel now?08:00 the unevenness of the recovery10:00 where is recovering and where isn't - geographic and demographic differences 13:40 rebalancing risk in portfolio 15:30 how live entertainment and events are doing19:30 the return after pandemic20:30 how to get professionalism in live events 25:30 the prospects for exits returning28:10 political games amongst the big players in live entertainment and the structure of purchasers31:20 making rollups work - the danger of multiple arbitrage and focus on synergies35:45 how long to build a company?40:15 the importance of profitability in the current market and when there is a trade off vs growth44:30 messaging around doing something different47:30 why Edition is lining companies up for investment 6mths in advance50:20 the challenges of agreeing deals 6 mths in advance54:00 favourite questionsLinksEdition Capital - https://www.editioncapital.co.uk/Harry on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/harry-heartfield-2275983a/Email harry.heartfield@editioncapital.co.ukSubscribe to the EIS Navigator podcast on most services here: https://the-eis-navigator.captivate.fm/listenSuggested book and mediaIf This is a Man by Primo LeviThe Body: A Guide for Occupants by Bill BrysonBioHarry HeartfieldSenior Partner, Edition CapitalHarry has over 15 years’ experience in the leisure sector. In 2011, he joined boutique asset manager Ingenious becoming a Senior Investment Manager in their Live Entertainment Team. At Ingenious, he was responsible for working across several investment funds including several Venture Capital Trusts with a focus on leisure assets. During his time at Ingenious, he also developed and launched several investment products aimed at the retail market, including EIS products which raised more than £25m, and was Head of Investments and Acquisitions for Impresario Festivals plc until the sale of the business to media group Global for more than £28m.He set up Edition alongside the other Edition Partners in 2015. At Edition, he has overseen the development of Edition EIS and Edition Capital Projects, which have raised over £50m between them. He also was appointed as Strategic Advisor to Superstruct Entertainment (a Providence Equity backed company) from 2017 to 2020 as they made their first acquisitions including Sziget Cultural Management (Hungary) and elrow (Spain). In total, Harry has overseen deals in excess of £220m across the UK and Europe. He sits on the board of a number of Edition’s investee companies including WatchHouse Coffee, Borrow A Boat and Tailwise.

Assessing companies for venture capital investment is often more of an art than a science. Richard Blakesley is trying to change that with Venture Cubed. Its rating system aims to objectively assess how investible new companies are. We asked him to talk about how they built their rating system, what it tells us about the venture industry and how it might change it going forward.This is the second part of our excellent discussion. In the previous episode, we spoke about his rating system and what matters when assessing companies for investment. In this one, we discuss scaling the UK venture capital industry, indexation and investing at scale. In particular, we talk about:the proportion of companies that should be getting investmentthe challenge of getting more investment into different companies instead of boosting valuationswhether support and investment should come from the same organisationcreating a index for venture capital and benchmarkinghow to make that index investibledata and creating systems for intermediate valuationsbuying and selling a venture capital indexdifferent investment models that might be usedwhy bigger funds would expect to outperform smaller fundsAs you can see, we covered a lot of ground. This is a really important discussion for the venture capital industry: there could be an opportunity for it to scale up dramatically in the near future, but how it does that really matters. This discussion may not produce all the answers, but at least it asks the questions. And don't forget part 1!00:45 How many companies get funding that deserve it and what's the shortfall in companies not being funded that should?05:00 inflating valuations versus broadening the range companies getting investment - need new channels for pension funds08:00 why the industry needs to change - case for passive management10:00 the challenges of indexing venture capital11:00 separating investment and support - how passive managers might arrange that14:30 the real role of a fund manager 21:00 issue of intermediate valuation (before exit) - data collection on private countries26:20 data protection & confidentiality27:40 how to make index investible / expand coverage - without diluting quality33:00 buying & selling index - fund types, physical vs derivative35:00 creating funds where industry can write a big cheque 35:45 bigger diversified funds outperform 37:00 the power law and reversion to mean42:00 co-investment model and role of BBB - public plus private models45:30 favourite questionsLinksVenture Cubed website - https://www.venturecubed.com/Richard's email: richard@venturecubed.comBritish Business Bank venture capital reviews: https://www.british-business-bank.co.uk/uk-venture-capital-financial-returns-2023/Subscribe to the EIS Navigator podcast on most services here: https://the-eis-navigator.captivate.fm/listenSuggested books and mediaSuperforecasting by Philip TetlockWalking the Bones of Britain by Christopher SommervilleMentioned by BrianHigh Stakes, No Prisoners by Charles H FergusonBioRichard BlakesleyFounder & CEO, Venture Cubed