Live Like the World is Dying

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Brooke, Margaret, and Inmn talk about some news from Gaza, the climate, hurricanes, University occupations, Texas' latest attempt to become a mini fief, abortion laws that are older than states, an update on an Arizona gun law, Taylor Swift, and TikTok. Host Info Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery. Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Brooke can be found on Twitter or Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: This Month in the Apocalypse: April, 2024 **Margaret ** 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. Oh, wait. Brooke, you had a better... You wrote us a new jingle to sing, right? Why don't you do that right now?  **Brooke ** 00:26 [Singing] I wrote us to do jingle to sing. Bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling. **Margaret ** 00:36 And that's now our jingle forever. that doesn't even include our name in it. That's what happens when...  Right before we hit record, we were like who's going to record the intro. And I was like, I'm going to record the intro because I have an idea. And my idea was to make Brooke come up with something to sing off the top of her head, because I'm a good person. But who's not a good person.... Wait, I'm not introducing the bad stuff yet. More good stuff. Also a host today is Inmn. Hi, Inmn. **Inmn ** 01:06 Hello, hello. I hope everyone is doing as well as they can in our in our great times. **Margaret ** 01:15 Statistically, at least one of you is punched a cop in the last week. So that's pretty cool. And also, we're a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network. [Singing] This is a new jingle for a show on the network. It goes like this. **Margaret ** 01:46 And we're back. So anything happened in the world this month, Inmn? **Inmn ** 02:22 Nope. Not at all.  **Brooke ** 02:24 Everything was good. Bye, yall!   **Inmn ** 02:26 Absolutely. Absolutely nothing has happened. Only sunshine.  **Margaret ** 02:29 What if we just did updates about like the things that we saw on TV? I guess that's a different kind of podcast. It's the wildest thing. Velma got the Scooby Doo gang together... Anyway.  **Inmn ** 02:43 We do This Month in the Apocalypse, but it's only it's only from the fictional worlds that we spend too much time inhabiting. [Everyone lauging] **Margaret ** 02:52 I conquered the entire world for my god. **Brooke ** 02:56 My child has been watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer because she's been curious about this show that was like my formative high school experience **Margaret ** 03:05 Aw, to like connect with you, watching old people shows like Buffy. **Brooke ** 03:09 Right? So that's what's happening in the world right now in my world. Yeah. Wow. **Inmn ** 03:14 You know, every once in a while it lines up though. Because, you know, I was recently watching, as part of my delve back to things I watched in high school, which is the Gilmore Girls, the family that I grew up with on TV. And they actually talk about Palestine quite often in the show. Or like they mentioned that... They mention that that stuff is happening, which lines up politically with like when the show was on the air and there was also a lot of bad stuff happening in Palestine. And but I don't think the show's creators were... They were kind of like adopting a neutral but mostly support Israel thing, which is, you know, it's-- **Margaret ** 04:07 Not our line here. **Inmn ** 04:11 Which is not our line here, but is... How much can you expect from mainstream TV? Like I wasn't surprised to rewatch it and discover this. **Margaret ** 04:24 So what's our Gaza update? **Inmn ** 04:27 Yes, this is my very funny segue into Gaza stuff. **Margaret ** 04:31 No, it's good.  **Inmn ** 04:32 Yeah, so... Which, I mean, there's nothing absolutely nothing funny about this. But so there's like a big... There's like big kind of like ceasefire talks happening right now, which I feel like this is something... You know, obviously people have been wanting there to be ceasefire talks for a long time and they they sort of happen and then Israel's, like, "We're not doing ceasefire talks. Fuck everyone." But they're... In this more recent round, while people kind of like imminently await a ground invasion of Rafah, which like the last little southern piece of Gaza that pretty much everyone who lives in Gaza has been forced into. And Hamas has responded to a call for ceasefire negotiation talks, saying that in order to start negotiations, they need for there to be a ceasefire. And part of part of what they're asking for at this point is like, yeah, we're willing to talk about hostage stuff, because I think they are still like 130 hostages, or something--  **Margaret ** 06:03 Which is sort of--like from a pure detached point of view--like kind of impressive that they've still held on to these hostages, as the entire region falls? **Inmn ** 06:16 Yeah, yeah. And-- **Margaret ** 06:20 Like, tactically impressive. **Inmn ** 06:25 Yeah. And they. So, kind of what they're asking for is like, yeah, we're willing to play ball. We're willing to do... like, we're willing to release hostages. But what we what we need is for Palestinian people to have  basic human rights, and to not get bombed, and for there to be a ceasefire. And what do you think Israel's response to these like, pretty, pretty basic requests were? **Margaret ** 06:56 Did they build a time machine to kill all the peoples'.... No, they probably already did kill all those people's parents. Nevermind. Something really disproportionately, impressively evil. That's my guess. **Inmn ** 07:12 Yeah, well, it's kind of like.... So you know how this thing happens in politics, sometimes, where people kind of talk up a response as being much more internally conflictual than it actually is? The same things kind of happening in Israel were awaiting Netanyahu's response, like all of the like defense, prime ministers and stuff have been like, "If you don't continue with a ground invasion, we're abdicating and your government's going to fall apart." And Netanyahu was has vowed multiple times that regardless of whether negotiations happen, or there is a ceasefire, that a ground invasion of Rafah will happen. So it's kind of like fake strife, like fake internal strife. You know? Cool. And, yeah, that's kind of the state of the ceasefire talks. And something... This is just a piece that I've been trying to learn a little bit more about, which is a topic on a lot of people's mind, which is like, "Jey, Egypt, what's up? Why aren't you letting people into Egypt to escape genocide?" And there's kind of a few different factors at place. And one interesting development on that is that Egypt has started to build a buffered wall zone. Like a border between the border kind of thing. Which is just like a giant concrete pen that can fit about 150,000, people that they're building in anticipation of the border between Rafah and Egypt rupturing during  Israel's ground invasion of Rafah, which they've... which Israel's all but announced is imminently going to happen. And likepart of what Egypt has said about this is they have been saying like, "Oh, well, we don't want to let people cross over into Egypt because we don't want people to then not be allowed back into Palestine when the war is over." It's kind of like this farcical idea that Israel's gonna do a war, take care of Hamas, and then just like peacefully leave Palestinians to like go about their lives. **Margaret ** 09:47 Yeah, I mean, like, it is true that... It certainly seems likely to me that Israel will not let anyone back in after they leave because Israel seems pretty clear that their goal--and has been their goal since 1895. Can I tell you a thing I learned about this? Sorry. **Inmn ** 10:05 Yeah, absolutely, please. **Margaret ** 10:09 I'm not sure when this podcast comes out. I just recently recorded, and it'll be out around the same time, an episode of Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff about Palestinian resistance to the British Mandate of Palestine, basically the period between 1917 and 1948. Well, technically, the Mandate kicked in, in 1922. But after the British control started, right? And in that I learned a little bit more--like maybe a lot of the listeners already know this stuff--but everything that's happening now was in the diaries, and often public statements, of all of the founders of the State of Israel, down to very specifically like, "No, we are going to absolutely remove all of the--" they would never use the word Palestinians. They wouldn't even use the word Arabs. They specifically only said "non Jewish people" when they refer to the people who are already living in Palestine. And it's just really, blatantly clear that since the beginning, the project of Israel has been not just to create an Israeli State--or sorry, a Jewish state--but to remove non Jewish people. **Inmn ** 11:24 Yeah, yeah. And it's--yeah. Which it's like part of that, that makes it really confusing to see Egypt's response-- **Margaret ** 11:35 I mean, I'm sure they're still doing it because they're bastards. But that part about like, oh, well, no one would be allowed back. That's probably true.  **Inmn ** 11:45 But it's probably true regardless. And like Egypt not wanting people to go into Egypt, I think is probably more based on Egypt's fear of being drawn into a military conflict with Israel or, as they've also stated, Hamas kind of like migrating to Egypt and like taking up the fight in Egypt. And so it's... they're kind of adopting a "tread on no one's feet and just kind of not let anyone in" kind of situation, all while saying that it's for the... it's better for Palestinian people to be trapped in the city. You know?  **Margaret ** 12:30 Can I do one other random history interjection about all this because it's on my mind.  **Inmn ** 12:34 Totally.  **Margaret ** 12:36 Okay, so there's this huge revolt in 1936, where all of the--especially the Muslims and the Christians fought--against the Zionist takeover of their land, you know? And, and their main military enemy at this point wasn't the Israeli settler or the Jewish--the zionist settlers--it was the British, right? Because the British were in control. The British used human shields. The British invented the fucking Mad Max car.  **Inmn ** 13:11 Oh my god.  **Margaret ** 13:12 They actually invented it in Ireland where they strap a guy.... They invented it by, you take an Irishman and you strap him to the front of a car and now the other Irish are afraid to fucking shoot the car or blow up the car because they don't want to kill their own guy. And there's photos of this. There is a photo in Palestine of the British in an armored car with like kind of a... It's not like a guy crudely lashed to the front Mad Max style like totally, but it is instead almost worse. It's like they went and manufactured a little cart that sticks in front of the car with two guys tied up on it. Anyway, there's the whole like, every accusation is a confession thing, and I think no government in the world has ever been more guilty of that than Israel. **Inmn ** 14:05 Yeah, yeah. That's very, very true. But yeah, that's kind of the state of things in Gaza right now. And just because I was curious about this, I looked it up and like, for a lot of folks who are raising money for people to, for families, to get elsewhere from from Rafa, it's like those current... It's like that that is something that is possible to happen but it kind of involves...it involves a lot of bribing and involves a lot of waiting for a long time and a lot of just finagling political situations, and it costs anywhere from like 5000 to like $10,000 per person. So it's very expensive, but but it is something that's happening, but it's mostly available to rich people right now. **Margaret ** 15:02 And there's a lot of fundraising going on. And I wish I had a link more directly in front of me. There's people who have collected together spreadsheets where they keep track of all of the families that need to get out, and like what their specific fundraisers are and stuff like that. **Inmn ** 15:17 Yeah. But Margaret, what's kind of been happening with people's responses to stuff going on in Gaza here in the States? **Margaret ** 15:29 So one of the things about the way that we do the show is that there is a lag between when we record things and when we put things out, so don't... So we're not going to like do like the news about the occupation movement that's happening now in the US, we're going to kind of really briefly touch on it. But I'm guessing most of you all are more familiar already what's happening with that than this show, which will be a little bit out of date by the time you hear it. But there is a huge movement across the US, especially this week, as we record, of--maybe even more so in the future, you know, who knows, every social movement goes different directions--of students taking over their universities and demanding that their universities divest from Israel. And it's really shattered a lot of the.... The more pro-Zionist elements of the mainstream media are still touting the like, "And these are anti-semitic protests." But that line is failing more and more on.... Like, people aren't hearing it anymore. People are like, "That's so clearly not true. The people at the front of this are the Jewish Voices for Peace," like, you know? It's like more and more people aren't falling for it. And so there's a big culture war thing that's happening. I got really lucky in that I was scheduled to speak at the New School anyway last week, or something--I lose track of time, all the time--to some students who had read one of my books, and then the occupation had kicked off. So instead, I was sort of invited--like anyone from the occupation was invited to come--and we talked, instead of talking about my book, we talked about the directions that social movements go and how they succeed and fail. And I don't know, maybe we'll do a episode about that at some point. But those movements are fiery and interesting. Anyone who's listening who's part of them, don't let the fucking liberal sell you out, and don't let the fucking authoritarians take you over. And that's what's involved. And don't let the cops divide you into "good protestor, bad protester." Those are the ways that people try to sell you out. And you can not get sold out until you, at the very least, get the demands of divestment. And as we're recording, this is the stuff that might change. As we're recording, I think it's Brown University is starting to enter negotiations about divesting from Israel. Whereas Colombia, where a lot of this started, is promising suspensions. And everyone's like, "You don't understand. Stopping this genocide is more important to us than our stupid--" you know, like, I think people don't get.... And then in the right-wing, and even some of the Liberals, are all like, "I don't get it. This isn't even a war that's happening in the US?" and everyone is like, "Basic fucking empathy? Like what the fuck is wrong with you?" Another kind of protest that happened that I actually only found out recently is that around 50 Google employees were fired because of a non-violent protests that they took against a Google contract, a project called Project Nimbus, which is an AI that has been used by the Israeli government that was developed by Google. Google denies certain parts of their claims around project Nimbus. But the 50 employees are currently suing, I think through the Labor Board, to get their jobs back. And so there's other ways that people are standing up about this. And we've been, of course, seen some other ways all across the US for the past six months and all across the world. **Inmn ** 18:58 Yeah, and just to like shout out this thing real quick because I thought it was really cool. It's this trend of people kind of like...it's like fighting in any possible way they can to do something for people in Palestine. And like outside of university encampments and stuff, it's like finding ways to act in solidarity with those struggles or to just find other little gaps in the armor. But shout out to the bus drivers union in New York City for utterly refusing to transport a bunch of people who were mass arrested at at a demonstration. They're like, "No, no. We're not letting the NYPD commandeer our buses and make us their accomplices," and they just refused to transport people.  **Margaret ** 19:57 I think this is a really important part of why.... Like,  labor organizing fell out of style until--well, about five years ago picked back up again--but overall, there's this idea that like, "Oh, class, reductionism. And like, you know, it's boring. And that's the old way of doing organizing and shit." And there's like some problems with the way that labor organizing has been done, especially in the middle of the 20th century, when they created a bunch of corrupt organizations--that were still better jobs--but, you know, they lacked the fiery interestingness of early 20th century and late 19th century unions. But sorry, who knew I was just gonna talk about history this whole time. But this is the other thing about what unions are, is like in order to.... This is what is involved when we talk about building workers power, like building power among the people who actually have to work for a living versus the people who can make money off of the fact that we work for a living, like having the bus the union be like, "No, we're not transporting prisoners." and they can say that because they have power within their own workplace, even though they don't own their workplace, which is like the next step. That's what you want to build to after you build a union, you know? But anyway, unions. Fucking cool. Y'all ready to talk about climate? **Inmn ** 21:14 God, no.  **Brooke ** 21:16 Never. **Margaret ** 21:16 Well--I know this is the thing I keep coming back to--this is the thing that always slips through the cracks of even radical news because it is easier to wrap our mind around things that feel incredibly direct and present. And that is not to say that these direct and present things don't deserve our attention. They absolutely do. But keeping in mind the climate context that we all live in, I think is important. So I'm gonna tell you some stuff about it. Almost the entire continental US is forecast to have a hotter than usual summer, surprising nobody. The only exception to this is basically North Dakota and some of the like areas that like--nature doesn't really care about our borders-- that might be the same. Everywhere else is expected to be hotter. In particular, the swath cutting across Eastern Oregon and Montana and then cutting all the way down through all of Texas, kind of at an angle, that is the huge swath of the country that is like extra expected to be way hotter. And southern Alaska is the only place in the US on the map that I saw--Hawaii wasn't on this map--where it might be colder than usual. But most of Alaska will still be warmer than usual. The Rocky Mountains are expected to be dry. And the East Coast, especially the South, is expecting a wetter than normal summer. The actual wildfire prediction map for this coming summer is mostly normal--new normal, so bad--but mostly new normal. With the Sierra Nevadas in Southern California, like LA and kind of that surrounding area, are actually less fire likely than normal. And then the more likely fire than normal is Idaho, like southern Idaho into Nevada and Utah. **Brooke ** 23:10 Was gonna say that a lot of Idaho has had a lot of fires a lot of years. **Margaret ** 23:15 But it's like this map is like not totally the map of where you look and expect wildfires, which is not to say there's not gonna be wildfires everywhere. It's just that's the current anticipation. The National Weather Service has put together a heat risk website that does a daily forecast and a weekly forecast that also shows like where people are more at risk for heat problems. And it takes into consideration the wet bulb temperature and access to all kinds of stuff. There's actually a fair amount of adaptation that is happening by scientists and some of our infrastructure to try and figure out how to handle.... Because like some people are taking climate seriously and some of those people have access to weather data and shit, you know? April, as of this recording on the last day of April, was probably the 11th straight month of the hottest of that month on record across the world. Which means that if we pull it off next year, every single month for a year will have been the hottest ever. There is a 55% chance that this year will top 2023 as the hottest year on record. The reason that we might not beat last year--I know everyone's rooting for us but we might not pull it off because the other side will be like "Well they had us in the first half." We're expecting a slightly cooler than normal fall and stuff because of La Nina weather patterns hitting. However, La Nina weather patterns are gonna fuck up a whole bunch other stuff. And okay, I know you all are ready to root for America, number one. so you want to hear something else that we are number one about across the world?  **Brooke ** 24:57 No.  **Margaret ** 24:59 Economic impact of natural disasters. Doesn't that kind of surprise you? **Brooke ** 25:03 What? Say more. **Inmn ** 25:06 I've heard a little bit about this. **Margaret ** 25:09 We are number two in our spending related to per capita wealth, but we're number one in total spending on this kind of stuff. It costs us about point .4% of our gross domestic product every year to take care of natural disasters. This is twice China and four times Canada. And, I mean, it's just because we suck and Capitalism sucks, is the is the reason why this is happening. Home Insurance went up 21% between 2002 and 2023. A ton of people are just going uninsured because they can't afford it anymore. Also, insurers are jacking up prices and/or entirely pulling out of certain areas. And now a lot of countries just kind of say, "Well, we kind of just can't build where there's fires and mudslides all the time." But America is like, "No way. This is our country. You can build wherever you want." And so there's also like fewer building codes and stuff around how to make houses that makes sense in your area in terms of disaster and climate and things like that. So that's something we're really good at, is spending money that we shouldn't have had to spend. There's been a whole bunch in the past couple months. In April there's been a whole bunch of tornadoes that have moved through Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma and north Texas. However, we are currently lower than normal by a little bit on tornadoes. However, they've been a little bit more deadly than normal, I believe. And overall, this is expected to be a fairly more active than usual tornado season coming up. So if you're in the Great Plains and the tornado lands, which is of course, as I think we've talked about before, the tornado belt is like slowly moving east because of climate change. Speaking of the American South, it is facing some of the most rapid sea rise in the world. We, once again America is number one--I don't know if we're number one. We're actually not number one. But we're doing... We're doing pretty good. We have twice the worldwide average in sea level rise. Isn't that? Anyway... **Inmn ** 27:15 Which means that there's going to be a lot new beachfront property. **Margaret ** 27:22 I mean, a lot of the old, a lot the old beachfront property has gone away. Or rather, people are like struggling to hold on to it. A lot of places across the American south have already gotten four, six, or eight inches of sea level rise since 2010. The highest is Galveston, Texas with 8.4 inches. And the results of this, of course, are wetlands are drowning, which leaves areas more vulnerable to storms. We'll talk about the hurricane season in a second. Septic systems are backing up and contaminating waterways. Insurance companies are just dipping out entirely. And roads are now below high tide in plenty of places. People are periodically cut off. Why don't we hear about this more? Well, because the people who are affected are Black. That's why. Environmental racism is a real thing. A lot of these areas have had specific redlining policies in place, or used to be in place, or whatever. The economic landscape is such that people of color, and especially Black people, are living in the flattest areas that are the lowest to sea level and in the most risk, and it is largely poor places that people have already not cared about because this is where a lot of like pollution happens, you know? Other fun news... The kind of thing that like.... I feel like every week there's something that should have been big enough news for us to entirely overthrow the world order, but a whole bunch of-- **Brooke ** 28:51 I'm concerned about what you call fun, Margaret. **Margaret ** 28:54 You take it where you can find it, ya know? Okay, so I'll explain my idea of fun. The very beginning of the movie Gladiator, right? I don't give a shit about the rest of the movie Gladiator. But there's this is one scene where the Roman army, who are somehow the good guys in this situation (they're not the good guys), they're attacking the Goths. And obviously, the Goths are good because they're goths.  **Inmn ** 29:20 Yeah, we love that.  **Margaret ** 29:20 And at one point, the barbarians come out of the woods and they're like holding the Roman messenger's head and then they all grab their axes and run screaming into the Roman army. and to their own death-- **Inmn ** 29:34 Which is how no army ever fought ever.  **Margaret ** 29:36 Yeah, I know. It's also not a very good way to fight, specifically, the Roman army. nd at least in the movie Gladiator, they all die horribly. There's a certain honesty to that. There's a certain honesty to just being like, "This isn't about winning or losing. This is about like, 'Can we fucking do this?"" But we can't because we don't have.... We're not in a revolution and individual actions don't.... This is the sketchiest thing I've ever said on the show. So anyway, a slew of documents came out, showing that oil companies in their private correspondence are like, "We're not going to bother meeting any of the Paris agreements. Why would we do that? There's nothing in it for us. We don't care." And they're just ignoring it in their private correspondence, while of course, they're all publicly like, "Oh, we're so committed to it." And it's just like, and the.... You know, and this isn't like weird conspiracy stuff. The Democrats introduced this in Congress, you know? And it's just like one of these things where it's just like, well the oil companies shouldn't be allowed to exist anymore. That seems fucking obvious, right? Anyway, I don't have a better tactical idea. And that didn't work in Gladiator. So I don't recommend it. Flash floods killed at least 169 people in Kenya in April. About 150,000 people in the country have been displaced by the rains. More than half of the country is facing intense flooding right now. Dubai got two years' worth of rain in one day at the end of April. It was 10 inches in 24 hours, the heaviest it's had in the past 75 years. The more center and center-right media is like, "Oh, it's because they're doing cloud seeding. They reap what they sowed." But the Washington Post article I read about this was like, "It wasn't fucking cloud seeding. It was fucking climate change." And that makes sense to me. Hurricanes. I promise you hurricanes. Colorado State University researchers are predicting a very active hurricane season this year. They're guessing there will be 24 named storms. And the way that we like named storms is that there's like 21 letters of the alphabet that we use. I don't know why it's 21 and not 26. I didn't bother looking it up. And then they're like, "Oh, fuck, we're out of things. And then they like do other shit, you know? Because when they first started naming hurricanes and tropical storms, they didn't really imagine that there would be more than 21 of them in a year. But now this is the third or fourth year. There's been like three years in the past couple of years where they've run out of names. And this one, they're expecting probably 24. They're guessing--again, this is all forecasting and this is not certain--that starting June 1st with hurricane season they're guessing it'll be about eleven hurricanes with five of them being major because the accumulated cyclone energy in the...mother of storms--it probably is a science name, but Mother of storms is cooler--is twice normal. And this is bad. It's like only a little bit worse than the new normal. So it's like bad, and the new normal is bad,  but what I'm not saying is "2024 year is gonna be the worst ever, and we're all gonna fucking die in hurricanes. And everyone needs to leave New Orleans." is not what I'm saying. Although, maybe? But it's just the new bad and a little worse than usual, a little incremental. **Brooke ** 33:05 Maybe they need to give those four-five sidelines letters a chance at being part of the naming process and then-- **Margaret ** 33:14 What five letters is it? I bet it's like X-- **Brooke ** 33:17 Yeah, and Z. Give X a chance. **Margaret ** 33:21 What about Xereses? Does that start with and X? **Brooke ** 33:24 There we go. Zeus.  **Margaret ** 33:26 Well, Xerxes is probably not in the Roman alphabet anyway. We can transliterate things however we want. **Inmn ** 33:36 It's kind of like the emergence of the new category six, the theoretical--we talked about it earlier this year--but the theoretical category six hurricane, which we might see this year.  **Margaret ** 33:48 Cool.  **Inmn ** 33:52 New albums about to drop! **Brooke ** 33:58 But Taylor Switft already put out a new album. What are you talking about? Oh, that's my news clip for the month. That's all I need to share. **Margaret ** 34:05 Oh, yeah. **Brooke ** 34:06 Taylor Swift put out a new album. **Inmn ** 34:08 I wonder... I wonder how many of our listeners are Swifties?  **Margaret ** 34:14 I bet a good amount.  **Inmn ** 34:15 Yeah, not a condemnation. Just a curiosity. **Margaret ** 34:18 I think about a quarter of my friends really like Taylor Swift. But the thing that I have said on Twitter that has been the most controversial and the thing that has most people thinking I'm a liar is when I said I cannot name a Taylor Swift song and would not be able to pick her out of a lineup.  **Brooke ** 34:35 What?  **Margaret ** 34:36 People think I'm lying. I'm not lying.  **Brooke ** 34:38 I think you're lying.  **Margaret ** 34:40 I'm not lying.  **Inmn ** 34:41 I do not think Margaret is lying. [Laughing]  **Margaret ** 34:44 If you put three 30 year old blonde, white singers in front of me, it would be a...I'd have a 33% chance of fucking picking Taylor Swift. Now, I'm certain I've heard some Taylor Swift songs, but I would not know they're Taylor Swift songs. And this is not like.... I'm not even saying this as a a point of pride. I mean, okay a little bit because I'm a fucking contrarian asshole, but that's not something I'm proud of. I'm not proud of my own pride about this. **Brooke ** 35:13 This is now going to be a Taylor Swift episode. Goodbye to the news. Hello to me singing Taylor Swift songs to Margaret. **Margaret ** 35:21 But then do like one of them that's not a Taylor Swift song in the middle and see if I can tell you which one it is.  **Margaret ** 35:26 Totally. Yeah.  **Margaret ** 35:29 [singing] "Where have all the flowers gone." That one's not her. **Inmn ** 35:33 That is not Taylor Swift. [Brooke singing unknow (presumably) Taylor Swift song in the background]  **Margaret ** 35:37 Wait, we don't want to get sued. And I don't want to hear Taylor Swift. Oh my God, no, I actually am a bad person. There's nothing inherently good or bad about being interested in pop culture. Alright. But speaking of hurricanes, the East Atlantic's warmth is three months ahead of schedule for the average of the past four years. Not for the old average but for the new average. The East Atlantic's warmth is, on April 2nd it was as warm as July 2nd is on the average. And then there's one other piece of bad news. But then I have positive news. Or, then I have like neutral news. The one other piece of bad news is that, as of this recording, King Charles III has not died of cancer. [Disappointed grons] I also wouldn't be able to pick him out of a lineup. That's not... I don't know if that one's true.  **Brooke ** 36:37 70 year old white man. Yeah, no. Yeah, probably not. At least not if he's in normal clothes. **Inmn ** 36:43 Um, well. Yeah, I absolutely believe all of that. Weirdly in.... I'm gonna say a controversial-- **Margaret ** 36:51 I thought you didn't believe me about Taylor Swift.said you believedno, I, I  **Inmn ** 36:53 What? Margaret I believe you. **Margaret ** 36:56 Oh, that's right. It was Brooke that didn't believe me.  **Brooke ** 36:58 Inmn trusts you about everything. **Inmn ** 37:00 I feel like I'm one of the few people that just very much knows this to be true in a real way. **Margaret ** 37:09 That's true. Inmn has seen me live in an off grid cabin in the middle of the woods. **Inmn ** 37:17 But, so, like, Arizona... I'm going to talk a little bit about Arizona. Arizona weirdly has been like, like we just had one of our wetter springs ever. And cooler springs. To the point where, there's like a big outdoor thing that happens in the last week of March every year, and we were scrambling to find new places...like an indoor venue for it because it was raining and we were all like, "When the fuck has it ever rained at the end of March?"  **Margaret ** 37:49 Yeah, you're supposed to only get rain in the monsoon season in like what, Fall or something? **Inmn ** 37:56 It's in like July-August. And then like, we do have a winter rainy season. It's just hit or miss. But March? March is weird. Like it rained like four times in a week in March. And I was like, "What's going on?" And like, just because it was a big outdoor performance was the only reason I was like that asshole who's like "Why the fuck is it raining in this desert?" you know? [Everyone laughing] **Margaret ** 38:24 "I moved here for one reason: I hate water." **Inmn ** 38:27 Yeah. But I have some other updates from Arizona. Shout out to.... Shout out to Logan, who is a bud who always texts me like weird, really in-depth updates about headlines that we touch on and then is like, "Inmn, the story is so much bigger than you thought it was!" And I'm like--  **Margaret ** 38:48 That's cool.   **Inmn ** 38:49 Please keep sending me these updates. So on a previous This Month, we talked about this expansion of kind of like Castle Doctrine in Arizona, which is like aimed at like, you can defend your...you can like essentially shoot and kill people without repercussions for trespassing, not only into your house, but on your property. And Logan was telling me that.... So the reason that this law was being pursued--you know, there's speculation about it being very anti-migrant--and it was actually in response to this criminal case where George Alan Kelly, who lives just north of Nogales, encountered some people crossing over his land, right near and along the Border, and he, suspecting them of being migrants, just held up an AK-47 and started shooting at them from 100 yards away. And he killed one of them. He killed Cuen-Buetimea, who was a 48 year old man who lived in Nogales. And some of the people in the group, who were then witnesses in the trial, attested to just, you know, crossing for work. And the person who was killed has two adult daughters who live in Nogales. And they were trying to pass this law ahead of the trial so that George Allen Kelly would not be accountable to wildly shooting a gun into the air and killing someone. But George Allen Kelly was...there was a mistrial due to jurors not being able to come to a unanimous decision. And it does not appear, as of right now, that prosecutors are going to try to refile charges. So yeah. Some other stuff going on in Arizona is.... So this is kind of like good news, bad news. And it's gonna start with some bad news. On April 9th, the Arizona Supreme Court made a ruling upholding an 1864 law that declares a near-total ban on all abortions, carrying a two to five year prison sentence for doctors who perform abortions except to preserve the life of the person giving birth. And yeah, so this is like from.... Prior to this, Arizona was a 15 week abortion ban. And currently, as we wait, we're like still waiting for this law to go into effect in like June, I think. But, so in June there will be a near-total ban on abortion in Arizona. But the Arizona House just passed a bill that would repeal this law from 1864. And this is a law that was passed before Arizona was a state. **Margaret ** 42:15 Yeah, that was like the first thing, when someone was like.... I didn't reshare this when I first came across it because I was like, "Arizona didn't exist. This is..." Because it's always like people come up with this horrible thing that's happening. And about half the time it's true and half the time it's not. Yeah, I totally didn't believe this one at first, because I was like, "There wasn't a state called Arizona. There was a territory and they had their territorial laws." **Inmn ** 42:16 Yeah. And the Arizona Supreme Court has somehow upheld this law. But the House just passed a bill to repeal it. And we're recording this on Tuesday. As of April 30th, tomorrow, Wednesday May 1st, the Senate is expected to pass the bill that would repeal this 1864 law. **Margaret ** 43:09 Didn't even Trump come out against that law? **Inmn ** 43:13 I don't know. **Margaret ** 43:14 I think I watched a video of Trump kind of being like, "Maybe that one wasn't the move."  **Inmn ** 43:21 That would be wild.  **Margaret ** 43:23 Because that one I think, was bad enough that I think that there's  bipartisan anger at it. **Inmn ** 43:31 Yeah. Which is kind of how.... That's like how stuff has progressed in the House and the Senate is like it... It required bipartisan agreement in the House. And it will require like two Republican senators to get on board for the Senate vote, which there are two that are expected to vote for the bill that would repeal the ban.  **Margaret ** 43:54 They're just trying to not get up put up against the wall. Anyway, Margaret's in a weird mood today. **Inmn ** 44:01 Yeah, and, you know, one last kind of bad world thing--bad politics--in the realm of some Republican-led states really trying to be their own little mini fiefs and like testing state-federal stress test, whatever shenanigans. So, Title IX regulations were just updated. And they were updated.... They were amended to include specifically protections against discrimination based on sexual-orientation and gender identity. Whereas previously, it was just based on being a woman, essentially. And for folks who don't know, Title IX regulations are for educational institutions that receive federal funding, they have to abide by certain regulations in order to receive that funding, which is, you know, most public schools. And big surprise, guess which three states? Florida, Tennessee, and Texas are all essentially either instructing their education systems to not listen to, to not uphold the regulations, or just straight out suing the Department of Education over it. And the rallying cry around that is, big surprise, sports and trans athletes. Surprisingly, the new Title IX regulations say absolutely nothing about sports. So it's like they're rallying around something that the new regulations have not even codified. **Margaret ** 45:55 I mean, literally, the only time that these people pay attention to women's sports is when they're worried about trans women existing. So it doesn't surprise me that, you know. **Inmn ** 46:08 Yeah. But Margaret, you have some maybe good things to tell us? **Margaret ** 46:15 I got neutral stuff first. TikTok has been officially... The law passed that TikTok is now--not immediately--banned in the United States. TikTok has been.... Its parent company, which is based in Beijing, has nine months to sell it. And so by any realistic standard, it'll be about a year before TikTok would do any disappearing. And then of course, obviously you can ban software. But that's not a easy thing to enforce. It would get taken down off of like the Google Play Store and the Apple Store and stuff like that, but people who had it still would have it. And then it would get buggier and buggier or in shittier and shittier as updates are unable to go out, unless people use VPNs to get from another country, etc, etc. **Margaret ** 47:02 There's ways around it? What? [Sarcastically] **Margaret ** 47:06 I know. It's also completely possible that since every one involved is a capitalist, they're probably like, "Alright, well, we'll sell the fucking thing. Like, who cares?" You know? That's like my guess. I don't know, I could be wrong about that. I would be surprised if TikTok ends up going away because of this. However, the actual thing that I think ties into this is there is a bipartisan bill that people are working on, called Kids Off Social Media Act, which wants to say that kids under 13 should not be on social media, and pass all kinds of like things about how like algorithms can't focus on anyone 17 and under. And just like lots of like, "social media is bad for kids." And now I think social media is probably bad for everyone. However, to me....  I haven't given us a lot of thought. It seems like a basic free speech issue. And also, like, old people fighting the future and screaming at clouds kind of moment. And the idea of banning TikTok, I'm like.... Okay, I'm not accelerationist. I don't think things should get worse before they get better. But the idea of some fucking 80 year old liches in Congress being like, "I don't like the tocks ticking around like that." And then like, it's like, incredibly popular. I think about half of Americans have a TikTok account. Like, telling half of Americans they can't do a thing sounds like a way to get people really mad. And I know I get really excited by the idea of like.... They have their bipartisan tyranny, and there's this idea that maybe one day we'll get over this fucking culture war and we can fight back in the class war that is waged against us. And like, if TikTok is the thing that brings it, I'm fear for it. I'm too old for TikTok. I have an account. I don't know how to use it. I've never uploaded a video. TikTok doesn't need me. But like, whatever anyway. But actually, I'm kind of curious, not having a child, Me--I'm the one without a child--Brooke, do you have thoughts on this no social media for the kids thing? Like am I...am I totally off base? Is it just protecting.... Like, I don't know. What's up?  **Brooke ** 49:28 I mean I get where they're coming from with it, and all the research that's shown how negative social media is for--I mean, they've done particular studies for kids and how it affects them--but turns out it's actually bad for all human beings, the way social media has come for us and the atmosphere is it creates. So, I get where they're coming from with it. As a very involved parent, you know, my solution is always to pay attention to and engage with your children, which is not a reasonable thing for all people to have as much engagement as it would take really to have healthy social media interactions. But then, you know, the anarchist side of me says, "No, you don't get to ban things ever." **Margaret ** 50:18 Well and also like, I don't know, a lot of people are rumbling about how TikTok is why a new generation of people supports Palestine and doesn't buy into the myths about the Zionist project being a thing that represents all Jews, for example, right? And then anti-capitalism is spreading and being pro capitalism is 100% bipartisan for the ghouls who feed off of the youth and somehow live too long. This is the most ageist shit I'm ever going to say. Some people are capable of performing their jobs well into their later years and gain wisdom. The people who run this country are nightmare men.  **Brooke ** 51:00 I feel like it's, you know, the same kind of things they've said about all new technologies that have come out over the last,, you know, whatever, 30 years. **Margaret ** 51:09 And like the only person who said this stuff, and was right, was a little man who had some bad strategic and ethical ideas, but wrote that "industrial society and its future have been a disaster for the human race." At least be consistent. **Inmn ** 51:31 I was researching this for another episode once, and I didn't end up talking about it because it was hard to learn too much about, but some of the lawmakers have specifically cited youth information spreading about Palestine as a reason for the TikTok ban. It's like a specifically listed reason from lawmakers. And the other thing about the Kids Online Safety, whatever it's called, is it's heralded as a way to protect children from pornography and from the proliferation of child pornography, which is the thing that lawmakers say all the time, and pretty much all these human rights organizations who are, you know, much more aptly trying to protect children from shit are like, "This is most asinine bullshit we've ever heard this. This bill is utterly absurd." And it has other implications, which are that it's trying to herald in this idea that you could no longer be like anonymous on the internet, and that the government has a lot more to...has a lot more agency to track your goings on on the internet. So it would.... It's like the bill would require you to essentially show a driver's license in order to engage with a lot of things on the internet, which I think is just trying to...I think it's capitalists' attempt to really make a thing like the internet something that is like more of a interacting with the government process and less a whatever the internet is, you know.  **Margaret ** 53:24 That makes sense to me. and yeah,  **Inmn ** 53:26 And it kind of falls in line with the our futuristic hellscape of like the "One app," for example. Like, you gotta scan your fucking fingerprint to log into Instagram or do anything on the internet. **Margaret ** 53:43 It's funny because sometimes they use a VPN just as a basic practice and sometimes I use a VPN that's set in Europe. And when you browse the internet as a European, every site you go to is like, "Hey, do you want us to track you?" And you're like, "No." And it's like, "Okay, fine." Because the EU has some good internet laws, you know? About restricting the tyranny part of it instead of the like.... Whatever. Okay, I'm gonna do my vaguely positive news at the end. Y'all ready? **Inmn ** 54:18 Yeah, what's good?  **Margaret ** 54:21 People are sleeping more than average than before. **Inmn ** 54:25 Yay. I'm not. But good for them. **Margaret ** 54:28 25 minutes more on average for the same people--not like the same individuals, right. Because how often you sleep is dependent on how old you are and also very heavily dependent about whether you have children. But people are sleeping about 25 minutes more on average than they were in 2002. And the best guess is that it started picking up a lot recently because of remote work and a lower percentage of people commuting. The biggest cool thing, the FTC, the Federal Trade Commission, has banned non-compete agreements. 30 million people have been freed from non-compete clauses. **Brooke ** 55:07 Oh, nice. **Margaret ** 55:11 The EPA is banning most use of methyl chloride, which is a paint stripper that has killed like 88 people or something in the past couple of years and it's just bad. The EPA is actually, for the first time in a while, starting to get like...they're trying to stop forever chemicals. And there's like some shit that they're actually trying to do, right? They also--do you want to guess when asbestos was finally banned in the United States? **Margaret ** 55:39 It was late. It was like the 90s. **Inmn ** 55:41 Was it last week? **Margaret ** 55:45 March 2024.  **Brooke ** 55:47 Oh, shit. **Inmn ** 55:50 I was right, sort of. **Margaret ** 55:52 Yeah, Inmn was closest. There's about six types of asbestos and one of them had been sort of.... Enough people, enough industries had been like, "But we want to use it." And so for the past 33 years, this particular type, people have been trying to ban. Because the 90s is an accurate assessment of when I think most of the others got--I don't know, I'm making that part of it up--all I know is that for 33 years, they've been trying to ban this fucking asbestos and they finally succeeded in March of this year. Also, the FDA did an emergency approval of pre-exposure prophylaxis for COVID called Pemivibart, which is a dumb name because it rhymes with farts. And nothing should rhyme with fart if it's a drug. And it is for the immunocompromised. So you would take this before, you know, if you're going into a situation where you're worried about getting COVID. And it's an emergency approval like the original vaccines were so it's not through all of testing, but it's important enough that they feel like it's safe enough. Also, recently passed phase three trials is a vaccine to pretend prevent UTIs, or urinary tract infections, which is the kind of thing that I never would have occurred to me you could run it against because it's usually, I believe, bacterial infections. But it's a really common problem. And that's cool if we can fucking solve it. **Brooke ** 57:22 And some people are super prone to them just based on, you know, bodily health or genetics or whatever. Like it's a thing. They have ongoing, chronic UTI kind of thing. So fuck yeah. **Margaret ** 57:37 It's kind of like when they finally got an HPV vaccine through and it was just like, oh my god, this is actually pretty fucking game changing, you know? I wish they would give it to fucking assigned male people. But yeah. **Brooke ** 57:47 And then conservative Christian types that were like, "Oh, we don't think that our children should have to have this vaccine."  **Inmn ** 57:54 Any kind of person can get the HPV vaccine. **Margaret ** 57:57 Oh, interesting. Good to know. **Inmn ** 58:00 Yeah, it's a different vaccine, I think. But anybodied person can get it.  **Margaret ** 58:07 That's good to know. And hopefully, next time, we'll have different news about King Charles III and cancer. But who knows? But that's This Month in the Apocalypse, which you have now listened to, or participated in if you are named Brooke or Inmn or Margaret. Unless your named Brooke, Inmn, or Margaret and you're not on the podcast, in which case you didn't participate in it. You just heard it. And then probably have a different kind of parasocial relationship with us if you share our names, especially if you're Inmn. Like, there's not a ton of you. And like, Inmn's pretty cool. So do you have like a different.... Please write in, Inmn's in the audience. Pretend to be our Inmn and we'll read a prepared script from you next time as if you're our Inmn. This is not true. I'm lying.  **Margaret ** 59:08 But what I'm not lying about is that if you want to support this podcast, you can do so by supporting our publisher, which is Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. And you can do that by going to patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. And if you do, we put up zine and podcasts. We do a lot of fucking stuff. We are your source for all of your anarchy culture. And another way you can support us this week of all weeks, if you are listening to this during May Day week, like the first week of May in 2024. Although if you listen to it in a different May Day week. It'll probably be true again. We are doing a 50% sale off of everything on our website. And that includes stuff that's really expensive, like the hardcover of Penumbra City, which is a $50 book, but now it's only $25 book. And you use the code MAYDAY24 at checkout and get 50% off because we fucking love May Day and we care more about our stuff getting out there than anything else about it. And if you support us on Patreon, we might even shout you out like we're going to shout out allium and Amber, Ephemoral, Appalachian Liberation Library, Portland's Hedron Hackerspace, Boldfield, E, Patoli, Eric, Buck ,Julia, Catgut, Marm, Carson, Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, BenBen, anonymous, Janice & O'dell, Aly, paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, S. J., Paige. Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Staro, Jenipher, Kirk, Chris, Micaiah, King Charles III--What?! And Hoss the Dog.  Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

Colin, a carpenter and electrician, discusses flooding, water damage, and home protection tips. Topics include grading for construction, managing water around the house, salvaging belongings after disasters, mold remediation with vinegar and borax, and dealing with water damage in buildings.

Homesteading and preparedness enthusiast Tyler from Dark Winter Concepts discusses inclusion of marginalized communities, navigating rural areas as a person of color, importance of community engagement, origins of Dark Winter Concepts, and balancing individual and community preparedness with medical care.

Dean Spade, trans activist, and Margaret discuss how mutual aid helps communities prepare for disasters, reevaluating political strategies, engagement through preparedness events, mutual aid as an entry point into activism, and exploring speculative fiction and climate themes in literature.

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Margaret and Dean talk about the ways that mutual aid helps communities prepare for disasters that are already here and disasters that have yet to come. Guest Info Dean Spade is an American lawyer, writer, trans activist, and associate professor of law at Seattle University School of Law. You can find Dean's work at Deanspade.net, and you can read the article that Margaret and Dean talk about, "Climate Disaster is Here--And the State Will Never Save Us" on inthesetimes.com. You can also find Dean on Twitter @deanspade or on IG @spade.dean. Host Info Margaret (she/they) can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Dean Spade on Mutual Aid as Preparedness **Margaret ** 00:24 Hello and welcome to Live Live the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host today Margaret Killjoy. And today, I'm gonna be talking to Dean Spade, and we're gonna talk about so much stuff. We're gonna talk about so much stuff that this is going to be a two parter. So you can hear me talk with Dean this week and you can hear me talk with Dean next week. Or, if you're listening to this in some far-flung future, you can listen to it both at once in between dodging laser guns from mutants that have come out of the scrap yards, riding dinosaurs. I hope that's the future, or at least it wouldn't be boring. This podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts, and here's a jingle from another show on the network. **Margaret ** 01:53 Okay, we're back. So if you could introduce yourself with I guess your name, your pronouns, and then maybe a little bit about how you ended up doing the kind of work that led you to be on this show talking about mutual aid and collapse and preparedness? **Dean ** 02:10 Totally. Yeah, I'm Dean, I use he/him. And we could start anywhere. I became politicized primarily, like in the late 90s, living in New York City. You know, Rudy Giuliani was mayor/ There was a really vibrant, like very multi-issue, cross-class, multiracial kind of resistance happening to his range of anti-poor pro-police politics happening in the city; people, you know, in the fight around immigrant rights, in the fight around labor, sex workers being zoned out of Time Square. You know, there was just. . .it was a real moment. And I was part of queer nightlife. And people were experiencing a lot of intense policing. And a lot of us were part of work related to, you know, things that had spun off of Act Up, like a lot of direct support to people who were living with HIV and AIDS and trying to get through the New York City welfare processes, and dealing with housing. So a lot of mutual aid in that work from the get, and a lot of work related to that overlap between criminalization and poverty, from a queer, trans, feminist perspective. And that work was also tied into like, very, you know. . . a broader perspective. Like a lot of people were tied to the liberation of Puerto Rico, and the fight against the US Navy bombing Vieques, people were tied into the fight around Palestine. So it was very local--hyperlocal--New York City work, but it was very international because New York City is a very international place, and those politics were very international. So that really shaped me in a lot of ways. And I went from there to becoming a poverty lawyer and focusing on doing Poverty Law for trans people, you know, really focused on people in jails and prisons and welfare systems and immigration proceedings and foster care and stuff like that; homeless shelters. I did that for a number of years, and then increasingly felt like I. . . I just felt the real limits of doing that work as a lawyer and really prefer unpaid organizing and not being do not doing that to kind of the nonprofit and sort of like social services, legal services frame. And so my job, for now 15 years, has been that I'm a law professor. It's like a really great job that's not like. . . you know, it's not a nine to five, and that's wonderful. You don't have a boss really, and things like that. And so I teach to kind of pay my bills and what my life is really about is, you know, a lot of. . . it's been a lot of local abolitionist stuff. Like, you know, site fights around different jails and other facilities or police stations or whatever and mutual aid work and, you know, tied in for years with various aspects of like Palestine movement, especially around trying to push back against pinkwashing. And like writing stuff and making media and collaborating with artists and and, yeah. So, that's like that's that same. . .I've always think I've stayed the same, but also, I think my ideas have changed a lot over time. I've gravitated more towards anarchist or anti-state thought. And thinking a lot more in recent years about the ecological crisis and collapse and just kind of like what that means for the tactics and strategies we're all engaged in kind of all these different movements spaces. **Margaret ** 05:41 I think that that's probably--that last point--is kind of the core of what I want to ask you about and talk to you about, because while you were talking, I was thinking about how like, you know, all of these things that you're talking about--the activism you're doing in New York, for example==I mean, it's all preparedness, right? Like us, helping each other out is being. . . like, aware of actual threats and working to mitigate them? And that's what preparedness is for me, right? And, I actually think activism is a very good, solid place to come from for preparedness, right? I'd rather have a bunch of activists and organizers around me than specifically people who like, know how to skin squirrels. I like people who can do both to be honest, but you know, as compared to the traditional assumption of what a prepper or someone who's involved in preparedness, what their background would be. But I also. . .okay, so it's like I want one, I kind of wanna talk about the activist-preparedness pipeline. But the thing that I'm really excited to talk to you about is kind of the opposite, is the thing that you just brought up. What does awareness of ecological crisis do to our activism? What does it do to how we make decisions around what to prioritize? How to live? Like, for me, the thing that started this show was that I was like, "I'm very aware of this coming ecological crisis. I feel a little bit distant from other people because I feel a little bit like I'm running around screaming, 'the sky is falling.' Because I could see it and I don't understand why no one else can see it," you know? And it was basically like, how does this inform the decisions we make? Right? Which is where the title sort of literally comes from. But I think you've done a lot of work around this, around how awareness of ecological crisis impacts how we choose to be activists. And I'm wondering if you could talk about how it's impacted you or how you've learned to help communicate this to people. Right, because that's one of the biggest scary things is how do we not Chicken Little while needing to Chicken Little? You know, we need a little bit of Chicken Little--a little. Yeah, okay. I'm done. **Dean ** 08:05 I want to come back to the pipeline later. Let's remember to do that. But one thing that your question brings up for me also is just, I just want to talk--and I'm curious about your experiences of this--I want to be real about how much denial there is like. And I think this is really interesting. Like, I find an extreme amount of denial about the level of the crisis, even amongst people I know who are incredibly radical and spent their lives trying to end denial around other things they care about. Like we spent our lives trying to be like, "Look what's happening in prisons and jails in our society," or "Look at what poverty is," or "Look at what the war machine is." But then when it comes to like, "Hey, y'all, I think that, like, collapse is nigh, and that might affect our strategies." People are like, "I don't want to hear about that." Literally, "Don't talk to me about that," because it's so scary, and there's so much stress. And then I get like a certain set of like really common denial reactions like, "Well, the world has ended before." And it's like, yes, every time colonialism is happening a world, a way of life, a way people have been together is ending. Absolutely. And there is something unique and specific about this particular mass extinction event. And it's okay to say. . . it doesn't mean that those things didn't happen or aren't happening. But they're. . .but that feels to me like sometimes a phrase people use that's just like, "I don't want to think about this anymore." I'm like, let's think about that and this because actually, they're all happening together. Right? Like, obviously, colonization is ongoing and it determines who is feeling the heat fastest, you know? That, I get that one a lot or I get like, "Well, humans are bad and maybe the world should just end," kind of thing. Like, let's hasten it, or like, you know, maybe not, "Let's hasten it," but like, you know, that feels really messed up to me. That feels like skipping over and denying how much meaningful suffering we want to acknowledge and recognize and also try to prevent, and it ignores the fact that not all humans have made this happen. Actually, most humans who ever existed have fought against extraction and states and wars, and it's like just elites running state formations that have made this happen. Like that feels really not right and unjust, that kind of frame. I just get a lot of autopilot denial statements from people when I try to talk about this, that are from people like who I love and who really share my other values. And I'm just like, what's going on? How can I get people to talk with me about this in a way that's not--I'm not trying to just kick up fear and terror. And also, it's probably reasonable to feel fear and try to hold that with each other, because that's a reasonable response to the fact that I'm. . .I feel very certain that my life will end earlier than it likely would have ended because of the collapse of systems that I rely on--all of which are like terrible systems of extraction that I wish I didn't rely on to live, but I do. Like, I want to talk about that with people I love. And, you know, I think it makes such a big difference in our political movements because we're so often in conversations that are about unrealistic timelines of change by trying to persuade people, trying to. . . you know, let's persuade Congress, let's persuade. . . like, I don't know, these are kind of moral persuasion, long-term frameworks for transformative change that are dubious on many levels but also are just really unrealistic with what we're staring down the barrel of. So to me, potentially, awareness of the level of crisis that's happening, would allow us to be very humble and pragmatic about immediate needs and preparation, as opposed to being invested in.... One other thing I'll say about denial is I think one of the things that produces so much of this denial is there's so much fake good news about climate. It's like "This person is developing this cool thing to put in the ocean," or it's all tech-based and it's like tech is gonna save us somehow. And it's those kinds of, "I feel good because I read one good thing about how one species is on the rebound." That is a whole news machine telling us not to be worried and also that experts have an under control, and someone else is going to fix it. And don't look around at the actual overwhelming evidence of, again, living through another hottest year on record, you know? And so I guess I'm just--I'm sorry I'm all over the place--but I just, I really feel strongly about what would it take for the people in our communities who are so. . .who dedicate our lives to reducing suffering of all living beings, to let ourselves know more about what's happening, and see how that would restructure some of our approaches to what we want to do with this next five years, you know? **Margaret ** 12:50 I think that that's such a. . .it's such a good point because one of the things that we. . .one of the mainstream narratives around climate change--you know, I mean, obviously, the right-wing narrative is  that it's not happening--and then the liberal narrative--and it's the narrative that we easily fall into, even as radicals and progressives and anarchists an ect--Is that, "Hey, did you know that we're in trouble by 2050?" You know, and we're like, "We better get our shit together in the next 30 years." And I'm like, "I'm gonna be dead 30 years from now and not of old age." You know? And, I, maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. I'm often wrong about this kind of thing, right? But I need to take into consideration the very likely possibility that that is going to happen. And I need to--and there's certain things that I can do to like mitigate the dangers that I'm facing--but overall, it's the same thing that you do by being born, where you're like, "Well, I'm going to die," right? And so you're like, I need to make decisions based on the fact that I'm gonna die one day. And so I need to choose what's important to me and, like, do my YOLO shit. I don't think anyone says YOLO anymore. But, you know, I need to, act like I know that I might die at any moment and make my decisions based on that. And people are like, "Yeah, by 2045 It's gonna be so much trouble." And I'm like, "2030." You know, this year, last year, two years ago, COVID," you know? And we just need to take it into consideration. All of these things that you're bringing up is a really interesting me. I took a bunch of different notes. I'm going to talk--I'm going to also kind of scattershot it. And one of the things that came up recently, we do a This Month in the Apocalypse and we do a This Year in the Apocalypse or "last year in the apocalypse," and the last year we did Last Year of the Apocalypse-- whatever the episode we did recently about last year--you know, we got some feedback where people were like, "Y'all were a little bit more cynical and doom and gloom than you usually manage," and it's true. And I try actually fairly hard with the show, because if you're completely doom and gloom all of the time, it's pretty natural to just shut down and eat cookies and wait for the end or whatever, right? And that's like, not what I want to promote. But on some level, I'm reaching the point where I'm like, "Yeah, no, this is. . . it's bad. The asteroid's right there. We can see it. It's coming. We need to act like that's happening, you know? And there's only so many times and ways you can say that. But the thing I.... Okay, one of the things I really like about what you brought up, is what that timeline does. In some ways it disrupts--including radical projects, right--like, one of my projects is social change and cultural change and one of my projects is to help people--and especially next generations of people--operate in a more egalitarian way, you know, in my mind a more anarchic way but whatever. I honestly don't give all that much of a shit about labels with this, you know? And that's like, a lot of my work, right? And then I'm like, I wonder how much that matters? You know, right now. And I wonder how much--and I think it does in kind of an.... I think this comes from the Quran, "If the world were ending tomorrow, I would plant a tree today." You know? I always saw it as like the cool activist slogan. And then eventually, it was like, "Oh, that, I think that's a Quranic slogan." And that's cool. And so as an anarchist that influences my thinking, right? About like,, okay, this slow cultural work has a point but isn't necessarily what we're going to do to save us--as much as "saving" happens. But it also really disrupts--and I think this is what you kind of mentioned--it's really interesting how much it disrupts the liberal perspective of this. And I remember having this conversation--I don't want to out this person as a liberal, [a person] that I love dearly [and is] an important part of my life, is very much a liberal--and when we're talking about, "Oh, I wish we would have a green New Deal, but it just, it won't happen. There's no way it'll get through Congress." And so at that, this person throws up their hands, they're like, "Well, what would save us is a green New Deal and it's not going to happen. So okay." And it's just, to me, it's like, well then what? You know? And you get into this place. And I think overall, I think anarchists and some other folks have been kind of aware of this for a while, where revolution is actually less of a long shot than electoral change on something that has a timeline, like mitigating the worst effects of climate change. And revolution is a shit fucking record, just an absolute garbage record. But it happens faster--but electoral change also as a garbage record and is slow as shit. **Dean ** 18:04 Yeah, and also, if everything's falling apart.... So like, I think that the systems that we live under, like the food system and the energy system in particular, are, you know, I think we saw this with COVID, the supply chains breaking down really quickly. Like the whole global supply chain is already like a shoe-strung, ramshackle, broken, messy, really violent thing and it falls apart--it's barely patched together--and it falls apart quickly when it's disrupted. And there's no reason to think we wouldn't have more pandemics soon. And there's no reason to think we won't have other major disasters, both resulting from political stuff and from ecological stuff and from economic access. So, if we know that the things we live under are falling apart, it's not like. . . It's like it's not even like a revolution like some people topple something. It's like things are just cracking, toppling unevenly across space and time across regions. And how do we want to be thinking about our lives? I like that you brought up that "YOLO," sharpens your own priorities, like who do I want to be near? What do I want? Who do I want to be with? How do I? What kind of person...skills would I like to have when that comes up? This relates to the kind of activist-prepper pipeline thing. Like, learning how to facilitate a meeting with a lot of people who are different from each other is really useful. Like my beloved, beloved, dear friend lived through Hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico. She lived in a really big apartment building that's part of a complex of two really big apartment buildings. And she was like, "The thing I really wish I'd known how to do would be to facilitate a great meeting for that many people--even if everyone didn't come." People were already supporting elders in the building, trying to help each other in every way possible, but she wished there had been big meetings to help facilitate that more. So those kinds of skills, knowing how to help people share stuff, knowing how to help deescalate conflict, knowing how to...what to do when intense men are trying to take things over, you know, and knowing how to organize around that. These are things that a lot of activists who are in any number of movements know how to do. So like knowing those skills and then also knowing it's going to actually be really...like it's going to be really local. There's going to be a level of just like, "Do people have stored water on my block? How much? What stored water do we have to share? If I get more people on my block to store more water now, then when the water stops flowing we'll have more water on the block." I think a lot about something you said in one of your episodes about how it's more important to have a tourniquet than a gun. Like just things that you can share. Partly, it's like, if more people are carrying tourniquets or Narcan or any of the things we know are about how I'm then a person who doesn't need that and I'm a person who could share it. So just that aspect of preparation, that's already what works. You know, we already live in a bunch of crises. Like, lots of our community members are in prison, people are living outside. Like, we live with so much crisis. We already kind of--if you're working on those things, you know a bit about what that's like, what you want to have in your bag, what kind of things would prepare you for the fight that's likely to break out or emotional crisis people are likely to be about to fall into or whatever. So I feel like that kind of thinking, it's like when we get to this level of awareness about the crises we live in and we're like, "It's not 2050. It's already happening/it's the next pandemic, which could be much a worse pandemic and start any day now. Or it's the next storm coming to where I live or fire or smoke," or whatever. Like when we accept that more, which is like this whole difficult process about accepting our own mortality, accepting that things change, accepting. . . ridding ourselves of like, nationalism that tells us the United States is forever and will always be like this, you know, all these illusions are like so deep in us, like when we do that, it just clarifies what this short, precious life is about. You know what I mean? It gives us a chance--and there's a lot of heartbreak. It's like, wow, I won't be with all the people I love who live all over the country or all over the world when this happens. I don't know when this is happening. I don't know how it's gonna unfold. There's so much powerlessness. And, what are the immediate things I want to do about appreciating my life right now and setting things up as to the extent that I can--I mean I can't prepare to prevent it--but I can be like, "Yeah, I'm gonna store some water," or "Yeah, I would rather live closer to this person," or whatever it is, you know? I feel like people deserve a chance to ask those questions of ourselves and then, politically, to stop doing tactics that are based on a lie, that things are going to stay this way forever or even for a while. Because that feels like. . . I'm like, I want to stop wasting our beloved, precious time, you know, on shit that's too. . . It's on a timeline that's not real. You know? **Margaret ** 22:45 I wonder if it's like. . .To me--I don't talk much about my romantic life on the podcast, but I'm polyamorous--and one of the things that distinguishes a partner versus a sweetie is that I make my life plans incorporating partners, you know? Not necessarily like, oh, we're gonna live together or whatever. But they're like, these are the people that I like, from a romantic point of view, and being like, I am going to make my decisions absolutely, including these people. It's like we need to date the apocalypse. We need to just accept that the apocalypse is our partner. Like, we need to make our decisions incorporating the uncertainty and. . . the uncertainty about what's to happen, and the likelihood that what is coming is very different than what is currently--or certainly than what was 10 years ago. I mean, even like. . . I don't know, talking to my friends who I've been friends with for 10-20 years, I'm like, we'll talk about 10 years ago and we'll be like, "That was a different world politically," right? It was just a completely fundamentally different world. And, you know, the future is going to be really different. And that is, you know.... For me, the biggest decision I made was around preparedness--and everyone has a different relationship with their families--I moved a lot closer to my family. I moved within one tank of gas to my family and back. And, you know, that is the single biggest step that I took in terms of my preparedness, and you know, that's far more important to me than the, probably, about nine months' worth of food, my basement. But, you know, I live in the mountains and have a lot of storage. **Dean ** 24:41 Yeah, I think there's a piece of this about getting to divest. Like, I mean, so much of what liberalism is and what nationalism is, is it tells us that if you're mad about what's happening, where you live, you should appeal to the people who govern you and you should further invest in their system and show up and participate in it. And maybe you should even run for office. It's all about going towards, because that thing is going to deliver you what you want or not depending on how well you appeal to it. And when we're like "That thing," you know, "first of all is rotten and is never going to deliver us anything but war and destruction and that's what it was made for. That's what it does." But also, like, even those of us who know that, even though those were like, "Yeah, I hate the United States. I'm not trying to improve it or fix it or make it into a wonderful.... Even those, we still, you know, we're still very invested. Like, you know, I have a really mainstream job or there's people I know, who want to own a home, all these things that we've been told will make us safe, it turns out they won't? It turns out already they didn't and haven't for lots of people for lots of reasons for lots of times, you know? See 2008 crash, see, you know, hurricanes did taking out all-Black property and displace Black people. All the things. All the uneven, horrible, terrible violences of Capitalism and crisis. But it's really a dead end. You know, when people ask me all the time about going to grad school and I'm like, "I don't know, do you want to spend the last--possibly the last-- few years of your life doing that? Will you enjoy it? Like will it let you do art and activism and whatever else you want or will it be a slog that you're just putting in this time because you think in 10 years, you'll have the job you want? In which case, no. Like for me that kind of invitation to divest from things that I don't really want or believe in any way or to really be like, ?Why am I saying yes to this? Why am I saying no to that?" is one of the liberating aspects of accepting how dire things are that I want people to get to have. Because it's about letting go of stuff that doesn't work and that was never going to work, but like really, really, really. . . Like the Green New Deal. Like if I dedicate my life to passing and Green New Deal and Medicare for all in this political climate with this time, like, it's not gonna happen, you know? And even I think many people who are liberals know that, but it's like, what would happen? Like, do I really? Do I want to produce my own abortion drugs and hormones for my community out of my basement? Do I want to. . . Like, what do I want to do that is immediate support to people I love and care about instead of deferred, you know, wellness, "hopefully,"--if we can convince elites? **Margaret ** 27:19 I like that idea. And I'm going to think about that more. I really liked the perspective of just specifically divesting, and I even. . . It's one of the things I sometimes try to convince the liberals in my life is that the way that incremental change happens isn't from people asking for incremental change, it happens when you're like, "Oh, we don't need you anymore. We've created our own thing," then the State is like, "Shit, shit, shit. No, we can do it too. We promise!" You know? And make them rush to catch up with us. And to compare it to something with my own life, when I when people ask for professional advice in a creative field, one of the reasons I like pushing DIY as a good intro--and even as someone who, you know, I do the show, which isn't quite DIY, it's collectively produced, but I'm one of the collective members, but started off DIY--and then I also have a corporate podcast, right, where, I get my salary from doing a podcast. And the way that you do things is you do things so well that the people who gatekeep look for you to invite you in, rather than going to them and begging for access. You declare that you're too cool to go to the club, and then the club asks you to come in, you know? And in order to do that, you have to genuinely be too cool for the club. But then sometimes when people give you salaries, it's fine and you can use it to fill your basement with food and give it to people and shit. And I think about that even with the Green New Deal stuff, it's like, well, that's not going to happen--probably at all--but it would need to be them co-opting a successfully organized wide-scale, decentralized movement, you know? **Dean ** 29:11 And the Green New Deal is like the prior New Deal, it's a deal to try to save Capitalism and extraction. It's very drastically inadequate for anything that would. . . I mean, so much of what's happened environmentally is not preventable at this point anyway, you know--in terms of what's already been set in motion--much less the idea that something. . . I mean, it's all based on the idea of maintaining a Capitalist job framework. I mean, it's just, it's really, really, really, really, really, really inadequate. And the United States is the world's biggest polluter ever and has. . . The US military is the most polluting thing ever for reasons. It's not just gonna be like, "Oh, you know what, those people those hippies were right, let's stop." You know what I mean? Like, the idea that our opponents are gonna just change their minds because we tell them enough. You know? It's just so. . . It's like, we've been told. . . And it's so like. . . We've just we've been given that message so relentlessly that if we're just loud enough, if there's just enough of us in the streets. And I think a lot of people saw Occupy and saw 2020 and see like, "Wow, this is so. . ." you know, Standing Rock, see these moments where people really, really show up and put everything on the line and are incredibly disruptive. And our opponents just right the ship and suggests that we don't live in a democracy--and we never have. They're not persuadable. Like, it's not going to happen through those kinds of frameworks. And yet, I think that the kind of like brainwashing or the fiction version of the Civil Rights Movement that we've been given is so powerful. Like people really are like, "If I go to a march then. . ." I guess one of my questions at this point in life, too, is how can we bring new people into our movement, because more more people are like unsatisfied, miserable, terrified for good reasons, wonderful mobilizable. How do we bring people in and have ways that we engage in action together that help people move towards a perspective that isn't liberal? So help people move away from love, just thinking they need to get their voice heard to like, "Oh, no, we actually have to materially create the things we want for each other." We have to directly attack our opponents' infrastructure. And we have to have solidarity with everybody else who's doing that instead of getting divided into good protesters and bad protestors, and all that stuff that you see happening, you know, every day. That to me, that question, like, what's the pedagogy. . . What's a pedagogical way of organizing that helps people move out of those assumptions, which are so powerful and are really in all of our heads. It's just a matter of degree. Like, I feel like it's a lifelong process of like trying to strip liberalism out of our hearts and minds, so to say. As they say. As liberals say.  **Margaret ** 31:55 I really liked that way of framing it. I think about how one of my friends always talks about the way to judge the success of actions--and I don't think that this is the only way. I think that sometimes, like "Did you accomplish your goals?" is a very good way. But I think that one of them is, "Does this tend to give the participants agency? Because I think that agency is--I mean, it's addictive--but it's in the same way that air and water are addictive, you know? The more you experience agency--and especially collectively produced agency--the more I think that people will tend to stay in the movement, even as their ability to express that agency, like even when the movement ebbs, right, people who learned. . . You know, there's this thing that I think about with 2020, and 2020 has been memory hold completely, but on some level, everyone in 2020 who had never before seen a cop car on fire or never before seen the police retreat, I remember really clearly the first time in my life I saw the police retreat, because it never seemed like it was a thing that could happen. I've been doing direct action protesting for like eight years before I saw that police retreat, because the way that US tactics tended to work in protest didn't tend to do things that made the police retreat. And that protest where I saw the police retreat, we did not win our strategic goals, right? But it's part of why I am still in this movement is because I can't forget that feeling. And so, yeah, I think that for we people are systematically stripped of agency, learning to invite people into space to collectively create agency is really important. But that said, I do think that actually--especially sort of anti-State leftism, which tends to be less structured, which I actually don't think is inherently a positive or negative thing about it--is that I think one of our biggest stumbling blocks is we're bad at bringing people in. **Dean ** 34:13 Yeah, the insularity of some of the more insurrectionary work is, I think that is exactly it. It's like yes, you can have your little cell that's going to go into an amazing sabotage action or an incredible, you know, deface something or, you know, make something about the more machinery of the prison system or something harder, but how do people join? How are people? And also how to take those steps from like, "Wait, I'm really mad at what's happening in Gaza," or  "I'm really pissed about what's happening with the environment," or "I'm really scared about how the police are," or whatever, to finding what's most available to find, which will often be organizations or groups that are doing a good job recruiting new people but maybe using not very bold tactics. How do we have those groups also be in better. . . You know, I was just reading Klee Benally's book and one of the things Klee talked about is de-siloing the above ground from the underground, like having there be more solidarity is something I've been very concerned about, especially since the recent indictment of the forest defenders and in Atlanta. How do we not have people be like, "Well, the ones who were just flyering are just good protesters, and the ones who, you know, did sabotage and lived in the forest are bad." How do we build such a strong solidarity muscle--which means we have to break ties with like the pacifism narrative--how to build the strong solidarity muscle so that people can get recruited into our movements wherever they get recruited, whatever interests them, whatever tactic they first stumble upon, and then can take bolder action and take more autonomous action, cause there's also kind of passivity in our culture. Like, wait for the experts to tell you. Wait for the people at the nonprofit to tell you. Wait for the group that organizes protests to tell you when to go home, instead of like, "What do me and my friends want to do? What do I want to do? Where it's my idea to go, go off and do something else that's potentially very disruptive to our opponents?" So how to have people get what you're calling agency, or what I might call a feeling of autonomous power and inventiveness and creativity and initiative that isn't just "I'm waiting to be called to come to the march once a year," or once a month, or whatever. But instead, like, "Yeah, I might go to that, and I also then met some people there, and they're going to do this wild thing, and I'm gonna do that," and then how good it feels the first few times you break the law with other people and don't get caught. Like having those joyful feelings--people talk about the joy of looting a lot and after 2020 there were a lot of great references to that--you know, those feelings of like, "Oh, my God, this entire system is fake. I can break the rules in here with others, and we can keep each other safe, maybe. And we can see that we don't have to abide by this rigid place we've been fixed," you know? All of that, I think does--like you were saying--it keeps people in the movement or it feeds us. Given how difficult. . . I mean, you know, it's not like anybody's doing something where they're like, "Yeah, this is totally working." So you need a lot of. . . You gotta get your morale from some kind of collaborative moments of pleasure and of disobedience that can like. . . You know, including hating our opponents and hating what they're doing to all life, you know? **Margaret ** 37:22 I really like the way that you talk about these things. I'm really. . . There's like, so much more I'm gonna like to keep thinking about as I go through this, but one of the things that makes me think of is, you know, what does it take to take ourselves seriously, right, as a political force? I think that there's this. . . Either, some people take themselves too seriously, but are not actually providing any real threat. Right? I would say that the sort of--don't get me wrong, I've worked for nonprofits before and I don't think nonprofits are actually inherently bad--but like the nonprofit, activisty, professional activism world, right, will often take themselves very seriously, but not present any fundamental threat or accomplish systemic change. And some of the people who actually do present a real threat, don't take themselves seriously. They're like, "Oh, we're just kids acting out," kind of attitude. You know, I mean, like, well you're 30, what are you doing? You know and they're like, "We're kids acting out," and like I'm like, okay, whatever you can, you can call yourself kids as long as you want. I remember one time I was hitchhiking when I was 26 and I was like, "Oh, yeah, we use the word 'kids' instead of like, the word 'punks.'" You know? It's like, "I'm gonna meet up with these other kids." And the woman who gave me a ride hitchhiking was like, "You're an adult." And I was really offended. I was like...I'm an adult, that's true. **Dean ** 38:36 I'm not a square. I'm not a square.  **Margaret ** 38:38 Exactly. And one of the things that I think about, I remember. . . Okay, there's two stories about it. One was I was I was in Greece 10 years ago or 12 years ago, shortly after a lot of the uprisings that were happening in Greece, and after that kid, Alex, I believe his name was was. . . a like 16 year old anarchists kid was killed by the police, and then half the nation, you know, rioted around it. And I remember talking to this older anarchist about it, and he was saying that there were people who did studies and they were saying that the average person in Greece basically believed that the police and the anarchists were equally legitimate social forces. Like not like each. . . I think some people were not even like they're both. . .they're all the same. We hate them both. But instead, people being like, "Oh, well, the anarchists, that's a perfectly legitimate thing that these people are trying to do, right, as a legitimate social force. And usually when people use the word "legitimacy" they mean squareness and operating within the system, and I'm not trying to use it that way. I haven't come up with a better word for this. But I think about that a lot. And then because of the history research I do, I, you know, spent a lot of time reading about the Easter Rising in the early Irish Revolutionary Movement. And, you know, I haven't gotten to read Klee Benally's book yet. I got to start it. Someone had a copy of it. But it was sold out for obvious reasons. Although, by the time you all are listening to this Klee Benally's book, which is--what's it called? Sorry.  **Dean ** 40:16 "No Spiritual Surrender"  **Margaret ** 40:17 "No Spiritual Surrender" should be back in print from Detritus books. And anyone who's listening, we talked about it before, but Klee Benally was a indigenous anarchist who recently died and had been doing movement work for a very long time. Might have actually hated the word "movement work," I'm not entirely certain. But, you know, the de-siloing of the above ground and the underground, I think that the more successful movements do that. And I think that, you know, the Easter Rising, one of the things that was really interesting about this thing in 1916, or whatever--you can listen to me talk about for literally, four hours if you want because it's a four part episode--but one of the things that happened with it, that I didn't realize, it gets presented most of the time in history as like, "Oh, well, there was a big. . . Everyone agreed that we should have this revolution." That is absolutely not the case. Absolutely the--I think it was called Redmond-ism, or something. There was like a guy and he was basically the liberal-centrist and vaguely wanted some a little bit of more freedom from England. And that was absolutely the political position of the average person in Ireland at that time. And then these crazy radicals, some of them nationalists and some of them socialists and some of them complicated other things, threw an uprising. And they threw that uprising, and it just fundamentally changed. . . That political position, that centrist position ceased to exist almost overnight. And I'm not suggesting that that is the way it will always work. But there is a way in which you say, "We are not embarrassed. . ." like sometimes you have to do things underground because you don't want to get caught, right? But instead of being like, "Oh, well, I know this is unpopular," instead being like "I'm doing this, and it should be popular, because that makes so much sense." You know, and I actually think that the Atlanta folks in the US are some of the people who have been doing the most work about doing above ground and underground work in a movement that is like. . . These are all the same movements. Sorry, that was a long rant. **Dean ** 42:24 I thought it was great. It made me think about how--and I really will listen to those episodes. I love that you're doing history. It made me think about how sometimes I feel tension--I'm going to be overly simplistic right now--but between the parts of. . . In all the movements I'm in, there's a part that's more nonprofitized, and where people, I think, don't know whether they're interested in taking over the State or not, but because they are not sure and I'm not thought about anti-State politics there, they tend to actually accidentally be statist or some of them are more explicitly really trying take over the State or believe in that fantasy. And so that set of people, when you when you have a belief like that shaping what you're going to do and you imagine yourself and you're like "We're going to run the FDA, or we're going to run. . ." you know, when you imagine the scale of the nation and then you think about your people trying to get it, even though you know your people have never had it and aren't anywhere near getting it, and maybe want to get rid of some parts of it altogether. Like maybe you want to get rid of the Border, get rid of the cops or something, that is not a non-humble framing. And it often includes a distrust of ordinary people and a sense that they still need to be managed. And those I think are like subtextual beliefs inside the work that is often happening at the more legitimized nonprofit side of our movements. And then more scrappy, you know, sometimes anarchist or less institutionalized parts of our movements are often much more humble. Like, could we stop one of these sweeps? Could we feed a hundred people in the park tonight? Could we. . . They're very like, it has less of a like, "We're going to take over and make a utopia out of this whole joint," which I think is a very unrealistic and also dangerous framework for a number of reasons, including to look at who else has tried that, you know? I think the idea of running other people in that massive way is just very dangerous and leads to different kinds of authoritarianism, honestly. But also, I think, for me, what happens when I really take into account the crises we're living in and that are mounting and the unknown intense kinds of collapse that are coming soon, it really points me to that kind of humility. Like what's doable here and now with what's going on now? And what would I do if that were my focus? And it really leads to things like direct attacks, like sabotaging, like direct attacks on our opponents, like making their jobs harder. It leads to immediate mutual aid efforts to support people's well being and preparation for things we know are about to happen. Like, what would make this less dangerous when this thing is about to happen? Like, that's the stuff. Yes, it makes sense to just have masks now because more pandemics are coming, and the current one is so bad. You know, it makes sense to have certain things around or it makes sense to build certain skills and not to be overwhelmed. I think some people get really overwhelmed by the idea of, "Oh my God, I'm such a turn my whole life around, become a hunter, become someone who can farm tons of food," I know that's not gonna happen for me. I'm not going to become an expert farmer and hunter. I'm not going to have the skills of somebody from the 1800s in the next few years. It's not what I built my life to do. My body wouldn't be good at it. But what is within reach that's. . . How does it reorient me towards these very humble things that are both humble and that have a little more faith in other people? Like a little more faith that if we stored more water on my block--I don't need everyone on my block to become interested in this--but if a few more people in my neighborhood were interested in this, we could store some more water. And if it feels. . . I just need to find some people who are interested. I don't need to have every single person be interested. And I don't need to convince everyone this is happening. But I also shouldn't just do it by myself. Like somewhere in the middle. And this relates also to the pipeline question, like why are people who've been involved in organizing and activism often good at prep? One of the things is like--as I think your podcast does a great job showing--prep should be collective and not individualist. It shouldn't be about "How can I have the biggest gun to protect my horde?" And instead, it's like, how do I care about people even if I don't like them. And that is something that our movements are about. It's like, how do I care about people, even if they're annoying, even if they don't speak all the same kinds of terms, even if they don't have my exact identities? How do I care about people because they're around me and they're thirsty? And that skill, that's also going to be about "Who do I want to be in the end times?" Like, I'm living through a very, very hard time in human history, what kind of person do I want to be? I hope I'm generous. I hope I'm thoughtful. I hope I am oriented towards attacking things that hurt life and caring for life. And it's not easy to do those things in this society. And so what would I want to change about what I've learned and what I know how to do to get a little closer to that. I'm going to die either way. Like we're all gonna die even if we're totally wrong and there's no collapse and everything's great. We're all going to. So these questions aren't bad to ask even if things turn out totally fine.  **Margaret ** 47:28 No, I, I really liked this, this way of framing it. And it is. . . One of the things I've been thinking about a lot lately is I've been thinking about my own cynicism. And I don't feel like. . . I feel like misanthropy is not the right word, because everyone I know who's like a misanthrope is kind of an asshole about it. You know? But it's like, once you realize that everyone is disappointing, you no longer have to judge the disappointing people as much, because then you realize that you're disappointing, right? You know? And I'm like, "Oh, everyone kind of sucks." And then you're like, "That includes me. I'm not better than everyone else. So now I should look after these people who kind of suck." And like, all of a sudden, I no longer have this thing where I'm like, oh, queers or anarchists or queer anarchists are the enlightened people and all the cis people are terrible and all the straight people are terrible. And I'm like, look, there are systems that privilege people of certain identities over certain other identities, right? But there's nothing about being a lady who likes other ladies that makes me a better person than someone else, you know? And like, and so then I'm like, okay, well now I care about everyone because I dislike everybody. This is not what I actually advocate for other people to do. But this is kind of where I'm at a little bit personally. I really like this idea of pointing out how we care about people that we don't necessarily like? And this is the thing that's always felt strongly about communities. Community is the people who you're doing a thing with or like to live near or, you know, whatever, rather than the people where you all agree about the current way to define the following word. And that said, I mean, there's people who are like, "Well I might live near them, but they're a racist who wants to hurt my friends." You know? But then again, I've also seen people--I know it's controversial--but I've seen the people do the work of be like, "Hey, white person to white person, don't be such a fucking racist. What the fuck is wrong with you?" And I've seen that work. Or, I've been part of a queer land project in a rural area where the neighbor starts off a little bit like, "What? What's a pronoun?" you know? And then it's like, "I don't really get it, but you can use my tractor."  And I'm like, "Great!" Now we're on the same side in terms of certain important decisions, like should we all starve to death when the food system collapses.  **Dean ** 50:00 And safety can include--I think we see this a lot with people who've been working around domestic violence and intimate violence in our communities--where you're like, "Yeah, there's a guy who lives down the block and he has a lot of guns and he's really, really reactive and he's someone we all need to be aware of." It's like not everyone is gonna move towards us. And so preparedness can also be about how we are currently supporting anybody who's living with him? And how are we preparing to support us all in regard to him if that need be? Like that kind of just frankness, you know? Like just being clear with ourselves about. . . But that's different. I do think that one of the downsides of social media has been--for me--like doing activism for many years before it started and then how it exists now, because it gives us a feeling that we could reach anyone--which of course, isn't true. Most of us just reach people that are in our own little silos or a lot of nobody looks at it at all. It's like there's a fantasy that I could find my real people and I could have a real set of people who really understand me as opposed to just these jokers I've been stuck with on this block or in this school or in this job or whatever and actually who we are stuck with. That fantasy that we have. . . It's true that it's beautiful when we find people to share ideas with and that some of that happens over the internet, and I love all that. But ultimately, nobody gets to live in a little world of people who perfectly understand them. And when you think you've found those people and then you actually hang out with them, it always ends up that there's actually tons of still intragroup differences and struggles and patterns. And so moving away from hoping to find the right people or climb to the right space where people will be truly radical--not that we don't stop looking for our people everywhere--but also just be like, "Well, who's here now? And what would it be like to learn how to care for those people? And also protect myself from them--to the extent that I need to.  And also try to make them more into what I want by showing them the cool ideas and hoping they come along?" You know, all of that, but not being in a fantasy that if I could just get these other people, then I would be happy. Like, that's Capitalism just telling us to claim everything, you know? **Margaret ** 52:00 I like that sometimes you'll say the thing and I'm like, "No, I just agree with you. That makes a lot of sense. And I got to think about that." And like, I like it. Okay, I've got kind of a final question, I think. . .  **Bursts ** 52:15 [Interrupting] But oh dear listeners, it was far from her last question. Stay tuned for the hair-raising conclusion of Mutual Aid with Dean Spade next week, on Live Like the World is Dying. **Margaret ** 52:40 Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, you should tell people about it. And all of the things that I always tell you to do, like hack the algorithms by leaving me. . . I hate anything that I say that involves me making that voice. I'm terribly sorry. I will never do it again. However, leaving reviews does tell machines to tell other people's machines to listen to this. And that has some positive impact on the world that is falling apart. And I need to tell you that that's what I do all day, is I tell you about the world falling apart. But you can support us as we try to alleviate it. We are saving the world, and if you don't support us, it is your fault when people will die. That's what I'm trying to say. That's "not" what I'm trying to say. Put your money towards whatever you think is best. If what you think is best is putting it towards Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness so we can continue to produce this podcast, pay for our audio editor, pay a transcriptionist, and one day pay the hosts, then you can support us on Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. That supports all of our shows and all of our different projects. And in particular, we want to thank Amber, Ephemeral, Appalachian Liberation Library, Portland's Hedron Hackerspace, Boldfield, E, Patolli, Eric, Buck, Julia, Catgut Marm, Carson, Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, Ben Ben, anonymous, Funder, Janice & Odell, Aly, paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, theo Hunter, SJ, Paige, Nicole, David. Dana, Chelsea, Staro, Jenipher, Kirk, Chris, Mic Aiah, and Hoss the Dog. Alright. That's it. I'm done recording. I'm gonna go play with my dog and I hope that you can do whatever makes you happy between now and the end of all things which might be a long time from now. Maybe. Talk to you soon. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

Colin, a carpenter and industrial electrician, shares insights on assessing structural damage post-disasters. Topics include triage after disasters, staying safe in buildings, and practical tips for survival. The podcast provides advice on handling emergencies, ensuring shelter, water, and heat, maintaining hygiene, and assessing structural integrity during challenging times.

Environmental issues, suspicious death of a Boeing whistleblower, Texas legislative battles, tragic Gaza incidents, positive strides in social progress, community preparedness, and inspiring Palestinian resistance highlighted in this engaging episode.

Episode Summary This time on This Month in the Apocalypse, Brooke and Inmn talk about volcanoes, fires in Chile, rivers in the sky, storms of new magnitudes, the war in Ukraine, the ICJ ruling on Israel's genocide, how the immigration bill is confusing and bad, God's Army descending on Eagle's Pass, and how charitable bail funds are under attack. Live Like the World is Dying will be taking a break until sometime in March! Stay tuned! Host Info Brooke can be found on Twitter or Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke. Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

Ben and Brooke discuss the importance of communication and information sharing in the aftermath of disasters. They explore the role of amateur radio in emergency situations, emphasizing its crucial role during hurricanes. The significance of trust, preexisting relationships, and effective communication is highlighted. The limitations of self-proclaimed disaster preparedness experts are exposed. The importance of various communication channels and situational awareness is discussed. The challenges of communication during power outages and the role of amateur radio operators are explained. Gratitude to a guest and the importance of listener engagement and Patreon supporters are expressed.

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Zena and Brooke talk about parenting. Guest Info Zena Sharman (she/her), PhD is a writer and consultant whose body of work pivots around the questions “How do we create change?” and “How do we care for each other?” She’s the author of three books, including The Care We Dream Of: Liberatory and Transformative Approaches to LGBTQ+ Health (Arsenal Pulp Press, 2021) and the Lambda Literary award-winning anthology The Remedy: Queer and Trans Voices on Health and Health Care (Arsenal Pulp Press, 2016). Her next book, a memoir, is forthcoming from Arsenal Pulp Press in 2025. She’s an engaging speaker who regularly gives virtual and in-person talks and workshops to audiences across North America. You can learn more about Zena and her work at https://zenasharman.com/ Host Info Brooke can be found on Twitter or Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Zena on Parenting **Brooke ** 00:14 Hello and welcome to Live like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host, Brooke Jackson, and today I have with me Zena Sharman, and we're going to talk about collective parenting. But before we get that, we want to celebrate being a member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts by giving a little shout out to one of the other wonderful podcasts on our network. Insert jingle here! **Brooke ** 01:31 And we're back. Zena, thanks for being on the podcast with me today to talk about collective parenting. I'm really excited to discuss this topic more with you. But first, let's, I want—I want to get to know you a little more. Let the listeners get to know you a little bit more. So, would you introduce yourself? Tell me name, preferred pronouns, other things you want to share? **Zena ** 01:54 Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for the invitation to be here. I'm a really big fan of the podcast and hopefully will have some useful things to share with the community of listeners. So I'm Zena Sharman, I use she/her pronouns, and you can find me on unseeded Cowichan territories—so colonially known as Vancouver Island up in Canada. And I come into our conversation as a queer femme. I'm in my mid 40s, which feels salient to how I'm moving through the world as a parent, and I am a parent to three kids. And I'm raising them collectively with three other queer people. And outside of the work that I do—the care work that I do as a parent, I am also our writer, I have done a lot of queer and trans health advocacy and systems change work over the years, and then have a growing practice in my communities as a death doula and a hospice volunteer. So thinking about many facets of how do we care for one another?  **Brooke ** 02:51 That's really great. We recently did an episode with a death doula and talked about a little bit of that subject. But— **Zena ** 03:00 You know I listened to that one.  **Brooke ** 03:03 I'm glad. But we're gonna talk about the other end of the life spectrum, and the the little ones, and how we care for them. So you mentioned that you collectively parent, and of course I've mentioned that that's our subject for today. So I'm curious what that phrase means to you, how you define it, and what it looks like in practice. **Zena ** 03:29 I think practice is the operative word, in the sense that I'm definitely not coming into this conversation as someone who claims any kind of expertise or definitive take on how to do this. And what I can say is I'm coming into the conversation sharing some of the things I've learned, and I'm still in a process of learning now, having been in this experience for more than five years, almost six years. So I wouldn't say that I use collective parenting necessarily, kind of, consciously in my day to day life. And I do think it's actually a really nice way to describe what it is that I do. And I mean, I think if I had to give the most distilled down definition, collective parenting would be parenting together, including with more than two parents are multiple kinds of caregivers and whatever that family or caregiving formation looks like. And I think it's useful to think about how there are many ways in which different kinds of ways of taking care of children are collective. Though there's definitely variation in maybe the shape or intensity of the collectivity kind of inherent in that. And I mentioned that because I think about the ways that family structures continue to change, right, like if we think about the dominant norm of the nuclear family, which is such a structuring shape in the context of settler colonialism, in the context of the ways in which the state seeks to legislate family. Yet many kinds of communities are creating family in different kinds of ways, you know, even down to kids with multiple parents because of having blended families, you know, maybe with divorce, for example.  **Brooke ** 05:01 Right. **Zena ** 05:01 So I think it's useful to think about that bigger picture piece, but also think about like, what does it mean to make an intentional choice to parent together outside of the nuclear family form? And that's the particular kind of collective parenting that I'm practicing. **Brooke ** 05:18 Very interesting. Did you—I'm really curious, did you start doing that when your your first child joined the family? Or is that something you discovered, sort of after they, you know, after you became a parent?  **Zena ** 05:34 Yeah, it started even before that, actually.  **Brooke ** 05:36 Okay, cool.  **Zena ** 05:38 I'll give you that the micro genesis of our family. So many years ago—so our—I should maybe you kind of bring us into the present for a moment and say that there's four adults in our family, there's three kids. So we have a five year old and we have 20 month old twins. We're busy. And among the adults, we have two romantic couples who are coparenting together, we all live together in one big house, and at the core of that, as well is a platonic coparenting dyad. So two of my coparents many years ago, as friends, said you know, we keep dating people who don't want to have kids, but we really want to have kids. What if we committed to co parenting together as friends? You know, we're queers. We do what we want. And so that I think was really cool origin story was them basically saying, look, we know we want to become parents, we don't want to have to wait to find, you know, quote, unquote, like the one, you know, the romantic partner who is going to be your like perfect coparent. And then eventually, you know, my other coparent, like, dated her way into this family system. And then I kind of laugh because my agenesis was actually initially, like, what was very much supposed to be a casual hookup with my now-partner. So I hooked up my way into this family. And the process of becoming a parent, you know, it took longer than that. But actually, by the time my partner and I really very first got together, they were already in the process of trying to become pregnant, and were already committed to coparenting with these other two folks. And so, as our relationship became more serious, as they were still in that ongoing process of trying to become pregnant, you know, then I became essentially folded into this family through a lot of conversation between us. So it started on purpose before our first child was born. So that's where we've been at this for nearly six years. So that's where it is—an everyday practice in my life, and one that I'm still learning from. **Brooke ** 07:42 That's a really great origin story. I love that so much. **Zena ** 07:47 Yeah, like it wasn't—it wasn't through any kind of, you know, there's different kinds of apps I think now that some people are using to find coparents. This was definitely born thorugh the classic queer practice of hooking up. **Brooke ** 07:59 [Laughing] Yeah, well, as a as a polyamorous person who is very—I purposely call myself slut positive, because that word to me is a compliment that I use about myself—I can identify, especially being part of a polyamorous community and watching the fluid dynamics of so many of those relationships, and that do sometimes lead to coparenting situations. Which is I think—not to say that you have to be, of course, polyamorous or even queer, to do collective parenting at all. It's just interesting how that ends up intersecting a lot of the time, it seems like.  **Zena ** 08:38 Yeah, I mean, I think certainly something that I think about in the context of our family system is, like, what are the lineages were part of. And for me there is that aspect of, by parenting in this way, we are connected to lineages of queerness, you know, thinking about historical movements for gay liberation, for children's liberation, you know, and that there are these really interesting kind of entanglements and histories that I think, you know, feel important for me to be able to lean into, like, as a queer person doing it in this way. But I think also recognizing that these kinds of family formations exist in so many historical and cultural and geographic contexts, you know, and that, you know, they're very deeply tied into particular kinds of communities. You know, thinking about many Indigenous communities, for example, or Black communities and all of these different ways of practicing forming family, and what does it look like to actually be in a conscious or intentional practice of pushing against the kind of narrow family forms that the state—and again, through processes of settler colonialism and white supremacy—tries to impose, often violently, you know, on particular communities and particularly in people and families. **Brooke ** 09:50 Yeah, I was gonna say, as an Indigenous woman, you know, that was a rich part of our history, you know, before colonialism came along was the more collective parenting and, you know, grandparents, if they were still around, were always very involved in taking care of children—and not just their, you know, biological grandchildren, but the children in the tribe. So that collectivism was there for a long time and was—it worked very well. And it was a very healthy and functioned for the better of the community. So it's unfortunate, for many reasons, that we don't have that now. And really inspiring and uplifting that folks like yourself are putting that into deliberate practice and helping teach others about, you know, collective parenting and ways to do that, because I think it, it does strengthen our communities and, you know, helps us all as individuals, and parents, as well, you know. As a single mother now, it's nice when I've had friends, or when family lived nearby that I could have more shoulders to lean on. Anyway, we can get into more of that. It's just, uh, yeah, I'm just really touched by that. **Zena ** 11:15 Well, and it feels like an important point of connection for me as someone who is the only child of a single mother, you know, and I think so much about how the image of parenting I had growing up, you know, was certainly of seeing a mother parenting in a lot of isolation because of the really important survival-driven choices my mother made around purposely moving us away from her family of origin as a way to break cycles of intergenerational trauma—which was really necessary for our survival, and also was something that did cause different kinds of severing from kinship, right? And so I think a lot about, like, what does it mean to be parenting the way that I am now? And how is that teaching me really important lessons, and simultaneously allowing me to do a lot of unlearning, I think, about maybe narratives of independence or isolation that I think I internalized really deeply as a young person. And that, I think for many years, gave me the idea that I couldn't want—couldn't becme and didn't want to be a parent because it felt overwhelming to contemplate the idea of doing it on my own or doing with a single person, a partner. And it was really only through this family formation that I realized, oh wait, you can do this. And I know—I now know, of course, it's so possible, but those possibilities hadn't been modeled for me until my late 30s, was how I came into this.  **Brooke ** 12:37 Wow. **Zena ** 12:38 Yeah. And I wonder too, I know that, given I think particularly the focus of this show, I wonder if it would be helpful for me to talk a little bit more about maybe some of the practicalities or structural aspects of our collective parenting, because I think it's—I think it's maybe sometimes useful to sort of turn it inside out a little bit. And the specific things I'm thinking about are, so domestically, you know, we are a family that, we live in a house together, we share our resources and financially share all of our resources on a sliding scale basis that shifts according to what any person's income is at a given time. So there's, I think that experience of, like, what does it mean to be dwelling together. But we also have different parenting roles. So we have to lead parents, you know, those platonic coparents at the center.  **Brooke ** 13:30 Ah, okay. **Zena ** 13:30 And then to vice parents, so me and my other coparents. So we kind of made up our own name.  **Brooke ** 13:35 Yeah, I like it.  **Zena ** 13:36 I think that that maybe is useful to talk about, too, because I like the idea that parenting—or parent—isn't a monolith. Like, it also gets to be something where there's that opportunity to really think about, okay well, what does this look like in practice. And I mean, in our family what that's looked like is the lead parents are the people who, you know, individually, each were pregnant and carried our kids, they nursed them, you know, we're really fortunate to be in Canada where more people have access to extended parental leave from work. So they were ones that took longer periods of leave to care for our children when they were really young. And they also, I would say, kind of carry a heavier, heavier mental load of parenting, you know, which is I think a big part of the work of parenting is just— **Brooke ** 14:20 Yes! **Zena ** 14:21 —holding it all in your head. And for me, as an early morning person and recovering Insomniac, I'm also grateful that I don't do nights in the same way that the lead parents do. So that's a real win for me and I think can also be, you know, for some people, you know, thinking about parenting through the lens of accessibility, like, what possibilities might collective parenting create in terms of thinking about, like, how can we each show up as parents in ways where we can both meet the needs of the family system and have our needs met? And as vice parents, you know, we're very, very actively involved in the everyday work of parenting, you know, getting the kids ready for school, making lunches, giving baths, taking them to school and daycare, putting them to bed at night, all of those kinds of things—particularly because of living together and having three small kids. But I think it's useful maybe to think about some of those practicalities, and I'm happy to answer questions if there are specific things you're curious about. **Brooke ** 15:18 Yeah. When you when you say vice parents, you know, I just inherently hear a word that makes me think there's a hierarchy to it. But then, of course, what you just said, there's, you're very actively involved in all these other aspects of their life. So I am quite curious about whether there is any sort of hierarchical structure in your collective parenting situation. And also noting—this is a very random question, I'm sorry—but, you know, sometimes when you fill out school forms for a kid, there has to be like the medical decision maker who they contact and, you know, gives permission if there's an emergency. There's some of that kind of stuff, which isn't necessarily hierarchical, but it is like, you almost have to decide, okay, whose name is gonna go on, you know, this part of the form. So, that's a two or three part question, if you want to try and tackle that. **Zena ** 16:17 I like it. I feel like it's an inherently polyamory-inflected question. Like, is there a relationship hierarchy? And I would say, you know, yes and no, in the sense of the hierarchical nature, like, one of the things I think is really interesting in the context of our family system is to see how attachment operates. And like— **Brooke ** 16:35 Oh, yeah. **Zena ** 16:36 Our kids are all attached to all of us. And it is true that the children in our family, at this time anyways—and they're all pretty little still—have particularly strong attachments to the parent who birthed and nursed them, right, and was their primary caregiver through the first year of life. So I think that's an aspect of it. And I think we run very democratically in terms of how we show up in our family and how we make decisions together. And there's also the both explicit and implicit understanding that, by virtue of the roles that we have, we get to participate in different ways. I would say, for me, as a vice parent, the way that I would describe it is maybe I have a little more freedom and flexibility to tap in and out of parenting, which is helpful for me as someone who has a full time job, a writing practice, you know, thinking about the other ways that I'm spreading my time and attention across all of the things that I do. So I think that's a—that's a piece. And one of the things that I think is a really crucial, honestly, tool for our family is we have a weekly schedule, and every weekend we sit down and have a meeting called Week In Review. And we look at the schedule for the week and we say, okay, who's doing bedtime for which kid? Who's doing school drop off? Who's doing daycare drop off? Who's doing daycare pickup? Who's doing school pickup? Who's cooking dinner? What are you cooking dinner? Who has a massage appointment? Who has a volunteer shift? When is our friend coming to visit? **Brooke ** 18:04 You do that every week, once a week? Wow. **Zena ** 18:05 Yeah, and it takes like half an hour, you know, because we—we're so practiced at it, right? It's very straightforward, because we also have places where we try to have a regular cadence of, you know, this is the bedtime rhythm we work with, this is the school drop off and pickup rhythm, that kind of thing. And it creates predictability for the kids to which is helpful for them. But I also find it—it takes, I think, maybe the decision fatigue out of having to do it on an everyday basis— **Brooke ** 18:32 Yes. **Zena ** 18:32 Because we just have it mapped out for the week.  **Brooke ** 18:34 Oh, yeah sure. **Zena ** 18:35 And then—and then we flow and flex, of course, as things come up. So— **Brooke ** 18:39 Are there— **Zena ** 18:40 Yeah? **Brooke ** 18:41 Are there—are there defaults at all in the schedule? Like so-and-so usually is able to do Tuesdays and, you know, person Q is able to do Wednesdays, or anything like that, that you can kind of start from a place of predictability, or—because it almost sounds like every week you're reinventing—not reinventing the wheel, but like, figuring out who goes into all the slots. But I'm hoping—I'm guessing that there's a little more that's maybe already built in normally that you can work from. **Zena ** 19:10 Definitely. **Zena ** 19:11 Yeah, there's definitely some predictability, like we have a standard bedtime rotation, and we just go basically in alphabetical order. And so—and then it's also really helpful because it means that the couples, we get two date nights a week. **Brooke ** 19:11 Okay. [Laughing] **Brooke ** 19:26 Nice. **Zena ** 19:27 Because we are not on a kid bedtime those nights. And so even just being able to have more time off, right, than would be afforded if we were doing this, you know, if there were just two of us, or if it was one of us doing it on our own. So I think that's also something that's been really helpful to build in. And I know you asked a question, too, about what I would think of maybe more around, like, how have we chosen—what are the decisions we've made around legally formalizing our roles. And I would say, we're in a space of evolution around that. So we made a very intentional choice, including after talking with, you know, radical queer lawyers who've done a lot of work in this area, to think about, you know, what do and don't we want to have legally or state-sanctioned around the family relationships that we have. And the choice we had made was to have the coparenting dyad be the two people on the birth certificate for all of our kids. There's some greater degree of flexibility where we live in Canada because of the legal advocacy of people with different kinds of family structures. But we still would be limited. We couldn't actually put all four of us on the birth certificate, it isn't allowed, given the nature of the relationships that we have.  **Brooke ** 20:37 Yeah. **Zena ** 20:38 And that's been fine up until this point. But now that our older kid is in public school, we're actually now in a process of realizing that it is really necessary for the two parents who are not on the birth certificate to go through a process of formally—we're choosing to do a legal guardianship of our kids rather than going through becoming kind of a full legal parent. And again, that's through consultation with other radical queer lawyers. And I say that because I think this is one of the tricky things about, like, what would be most values are politically aligned around, I don't want the state to sanction my relationships. Like that, that feels values misaligned for me.  **Brooke ** 21:17 Right, oh yeah.  **Zena ** 21:17 And simultaneously, like, what does it mean when, you know, we and our children become implicated with these institutions in different kinds of ways, and when does it become a barrier around things like getting to be recognized as a parent by the school, getting to be a healthcare decision maker in the event of an emergency, that kind of thing.  **Brooke ** 21:34 Right. **Zena ** 21:34 So we're in a space of having to make some different choices now. And that's complicated, because it involves the courts, it involves getting criminal record checks, like, things that are highly inaccessible to many people in many communities. And that we're muddling our way through. **Brooke ** 21:49 Yeah, that's quite the—that's quite the journey, for sure. And I'm sure very—a very interesting process to go through and figure out and— **Zena ** 21:59 My learning is: don't casually mention to the lady at the police station that you're doing gender open parenting. She will immediately become icy cold to you.  **Brooke ** 22:11 Okay. **Zena ** 22:11 Why did I not predict that? So many reasons. She asked me about the gender of our children and I chose to answer honestly. It was probably the wrong choice. **Brooke ** 22:23 Yeah, I hear ya. In our—in our pre-taping conversation, you mentioned that phrase, the gender open parenting, and this is maybe kind of an aside and not exactly collective parenting. I'm intuiting what I think you mean just from the phrasing, but I haven't actually heard anyone use that phrase before until you said it. So I'm wondering if you might be willing to go off on a little tangent here with me and teach me about that.  **Zena ** 22:50 Yeah, I mean, the maybe the simplest way is that we didn't assign a gender to the kids when they were born. And we just use they/them pronouns. Which, again, I recognize is still a choice. But in our family, we've opted to use they/them pronouns for our kids until they were big enough to say otherwise. And so with our older kid, it was very clear—just before she turned three she said, I'm she, I'm a girl. And we said, okay, and proceeded accordingly. And our other kids are still little enough that they haven't articulated that to us. And, you know, the message we always want to give to our kids over and over again is, whatever that looks like in the future, if it changes, wonderful. You know, we will celebrate and accept you exactly as you are. And that also feels really important in our family with a couple of parents who are nonbinary, all of us who are queer, you know, and really trying to create a space for our children that's really affirming of them in the fullness of who they are, and who they're in a continual process of becoming. **Brooke ** 23:47 With your—with your older child who has now identified her own gender— and I guess, as you're doing—you're raising the younger ones too, are there—I'm thinking about, like, when I go to the toy store, right, and there's still, you know, the "girl" aisle and the "boy" aisle kind of a thing. And there's probably other scenarios of that kind of, like, classic gender division, and I'm wondering how much you all had to work to, like, to avoid any of that, or if you did, or how you manage some of that while you were trying to keep this gender open parenting philosophy going on. Practice, practice.  **Zena ** 24:27 Yeah, I mean, I think gender is always present, right?  **Brooke ** 24:32 Right.  **Zena ** 24:33 In so many ways, and certainly becomes this like shaping and structuring thing in our society. **Brooke ** 24:38 You go to a public bathroom.  **Zena ** 24:39 Yeah, absolutely. **Brooke ** 24:40 Yeah, okay.  **Zena ** 24:41 I mean, you know, even thinking about it at the level of like children's clothing you know as a micro example, it is so fascinating to me how different the cuts are— **Brooke ** 24:50 Yes. **Zena ** 24:50 Which means a tshirt for a quote unquote girl and a tshirt for a quote unquote boy, identical sizing in terms of the kid clothing size, but actually, in our experience, like vastly different size, right? **Brooke ** 25:05 Yes. **Zena ** 25:06 And so I use that as a micro example, I think, to think about the ways in which, you know, gender shows up in so many layered ways and obviously shows up for kids in a whole bunch of kinds of ways. And I think what we try to do was just create a space of possibility, giving the kids lots of choices around the type of garments that they wear, not attaching labels around, this is a boy thing, or this is a girl thing, you know, just really saying, oh, okay, this is what you want to wear, this is what you like, Great, how can we support you in that and give you lots lots to choose from, whether it's around how they want to express themselves or what they want to do. I mean, I like it in the context of our multi parent family too, because I think about the different strengths we bring as parents, and I know that I will never be—nor do I want to be—the sports parent. As a queer femme, you know, who has been deeply immersed in femme community for 20 years, I am definitely the parent who will paint your nails.  **Brooke ** 26:04 Nice.  **Zena ** 26:05 You know, if you want your nails painted, like, my got you, you know? And so I think about that too in the different ways we can model, like, what are the gender expressions we have as adults in our family—we're very lucky to have a community of people around us with a lot of really diverse gender expressions. And so I think that's also something that's really helpful for our kids to see that there's a lot of kind of ways to be, **Brooke ** 26:27 Yeah, that's really neat. So I imagine that you, you know, probably don't even sort of approach clothing from a gendered standpoint a lot of the time. Like, you know, I need to work on my own thinking—but like, if I were to pick up a two year old size bright pink shirt, my brain immediately would go, oh, you know, girl, or, you know, if I pick up a two year old shirt that's got, you know, big old monster trucks on it, I think, boy. And so my original question to you was—was trying to imagine like that scenario, and then what you do or don't put on the kids, but I suppose that if you're coming at it with a really non-gendered perspective, and saying, this is not a girl thing, this is not a boy thing. it doesn't matter who's wearing what. You need—you don't have to try to put them in quote, unquote, gender neutral things, either. Am I—am I right in thinking that?  **Zena ** 27:20 Yeah. And I think especially because I think sometimes what gets coded as gender neutral, you know, often is something that might look more sort of, quote, unquote, kind of masculine. And I see this, I think, probably more reflected in my observations of some of the sort of ostensively gender neutral clothing lines that have come out, like, I think often in context of queer community and being marketed at queer community. But then, multiple times I've seen femems say, hey, but is that actually neutral? Or is it—is it really kind of like repackaging something that, you know, might be coded in other contexts as more kind of masculine, right? So, I mean, again, it's sort of the malleability of all of this stuff, but also kind of the stickiness of these, these gender norms that show up in all kinds of places. And I think, you know, for our kids, like, hopefully, we can bring the same ethos we bring to our own clothing, which is like, what feels good on your bod— including from a sensory standpoint—like, what's comfortable? And then also, like, what delights you and what can you move in, you know, and the clothing that a little kid needs is different, right, that perhaps what my wardrobe looks like. Though, I also think a lot about what can I move in. Because I sure do a lot of crouching and crawling around—more than I did before I was a parent.  **Brooke ** 28:30 [Laughing] Yeah. **Zena ** 28:31 And I think a lot more about how will this outfit hold up to all manner of bodily fluids and other weird liquids, you know, it's really—it's really a factor that I didn't used to think about in my pre parenting life. **Brooke ** 28:43 Yeah, and my—my child was far enough, kind of, from that age, that's not really an issue. And so, you know, you say that I'm like, oh yes, I remember that phase of parenting, where that was one of the considerations. And it's funny to be on the other side of some of these things and realize some of what I forgottenthat used to be of such great concern. I want to back up though with you like three steps, because we were talking about how, when you came into the relationship, you know, it was sort of already established that there was going to be this collective parenting where that quickly developed, whatever, whatever the timeframe was. But, you know, by the time children came along, you all already knew that's how it was going to be. I'm wondering if, in that time or since that time, if you've done a lot of, I don't know, reading or researching or talking to other collective parents, or if you've done mostly kind of figuring it out, you know, with the four of you of how it works, or perhaps a mix of both techniques. But how did you learn how to collective parents, is really what I'm getting at. **Zena ** 29:49 Yesah! Well, and I—I'm definitely learning all the time, and that's one of the things I love about it. Right? You know, I think parenting is such an ongoing learning process, whether you're doing it collectively or not.  **Zena ** 30:01 And I think, for us, there is a really—a really beautiful aspect that is about rootedness and community. And I feel grateful for that. Like, there are other people that we know who were already doing different forms of collective parenting—again, as has been done for generations. But in this case, these are maybe more immediate kind of peers of ours that are parenting kind of similar age kids in different cities, some in Canada, some in the US, that we are in relationship with. And so there absolutely are those kinds of conversations and connections that happen, which I think can feel like a real balm for us in terms of saying, oh yeah, you know, how do you navigate this particular thing? Or, oh, yes, I also have had these types of conversations. Like, it's so great to be able to talk about this with another set of coparents and see how you guys are, you know, dealing with this particular challenge you might be grappling with. Or, oh cool, you have a neat kind of hack, like, tell us what it is we want to know. And then I think, again, because we also have been more open about our family story intentionally, because I think we're mindful that—you know, certainly even thinking of my own experience, I didn't have models for this kind of parenting when I was coming up as a younger person. So as a family, we've made an intentional choice to tell our story in certain contexts. As a way, we hope to be able to open the door for other folks to contemplate what kinds of possibilities they might want to co create and the communities and relationships they're part of.  **Brooke ** 30:01 Absolutely. **Brooke ** 31:25 Yeah! **Zena ** 31:25 And so I think there also is that element where then people will come to us and say, we're just starting out, or we want to do this, can we talk with you? Can we learn from you? And we always try to be in that space of generosity and reciprocity. And absolutely, there's a research-based element, including for me as a writer whose work is historically-informed, like, I'm always really interested to learn about the lineages we come from. I'll never forget, you know, the the story I often think about—which is mind boggling to me when I think about it in terms of era—I read about a lesbian woman, this would have been in the late 70s, who was coparenting a baby. And she was doing it with 10 of her friends.  **Zena ** 32:05 And like in the era before cell phones, and group texts, and email and Google Calendar. Like to coparent a baby with 10 people. What an accomplishment. Right?  **Brooke ** 32:05 Wow.  **Brooke ** 32:15 Yeah.  **Zena ** 32:16 Just logistically alone, it's astonishing.  **Brooke ** 32:18 Right? Yeah, for sure. Do you find that—let me say it this way, how common is that people become parents after they've decided to collectively parent, as opposed to becoming collective parents after they've become... regular's is not the right word. But, you know, after they've become a parent, starting to do collective parenting versus pre planning for that? **Zena ** 32:50 That's a good question. And I can't say I have an easy answer to it, because I would say it probably depends. Like I get the sense that more people are going into these kinds of parenting arrangements, like, intentionally, before there are kids on the scene. And I also think that these kinds of collective parenting relationships and arrangements emerge organically over time as well, right, as relationships change, as people situations change in the context of their family systems. So I would wager it's probably a mix. And I would guess that there might be a bit of an upward trend in terms of seeing folks maybe coming into these types of family formations with intentionality before they have kids.  **Brooke ** 33:33 Yeah, interesting.  **Zena ** 33:34 But that's, you know, that's based on literally no data whatsoever— **Brooke ** 33:37 Oh I know. **Zena ** 33:38 Except—except vibes and what I know about, you know, how family formations are changing in a lot of different ways. **Brooke ** 33:45 Yeah. Well, you certainly talked to a lot more collective parents than I have. So, you know, not that's a representative sample as an economist. But certainly, there's there's some information to be gleaned from your connections there. **Zena ** 34:01 Yeah. And I think you can maybe also think about it in relation to, you know, places where we do see like legal advocacy happening, like, often driven by folks in different kinds of poly family arrangements or, or what might be a different or kind of non normative family arrangement, like, fighting to have those family arrangements and relationships recognized by the courts. So, you know, I think that that is also a place where I have seen shifts, both in the US and Canadian context. And, you know, what that's going to look like over time. Obviously, given the regressive politics we're seeing right now, given rising fascism, and obviously the targeting of trans and queer folks and people across a lot of lines of identity. I don't have a sense of any of those advances are going to be rolled back, but I do look at the work of organizations like the Chosen Family Law Center in the US would be a great example of a place, I think, where they're doing some really interesting advocacy about, you know, how might different kinds of family formations have greater legal recognition, greater state recognition—which does have many forms of utility, right, and all it's complexity. **Brooke ** 35:01 Right. Yeah, yeah, unfortunate, as you had said before, that you know, the state—that we sort of have to get the state involved in some of this because, you know, we don't want them in our relationships. At least I don't want them in mine, much as you said you don't want them in yours. But then, yeah, there's certain rights and privileges that are granted or denied, you know, based on—purely on biology a lot of the time. So there's the work that has to be done to, you know, move that forward. So you were just talking about, you know, our current political climate and the rise of fascism. Do you feel like collective parenting has become more important or more useful because of our current political and social climate that we're in? **Zena ** 35:47 Yeah, as I was thinking about this conversation, I went back to the book "Care Work: Dreaming Disability Justice" by Leah Lakshmi Piepzna-Samarasinha. And in that book Leah quotes their friend, Dory Midnight who says, "More care more of the time." And I love the simple potency of that phrase. And the reason I'm drawing a direct connection to the current social, political, economic climate is that I believe very strongly in the need to grow and deepen our capacity for interdependence, and to build the relationships that are necessary to enable more of us to survive. Like that, that is something I try to organize my life around in a lot of different ways. And certainly, I think, collective parenting is is one of those. And I think that, you know, certainly parenting—and I think caregiving more broadly, whether you're caring for kids or other adults in your life—can be immensely joyful, pleasurable, rewarding and fulfilling. And it also can be exhausting, depleting, and unrelenting, right? Like you're a single parent. I'm sure you have your own intense experiences of the joys and challenges of what it means to be a parent and a caregiver. And so I think a lot about, like, how might we actually grow our capacity to care for one another, you know. And I don't think it's unconnected that one of the tenets of disaster preparedness is to get to know your neighbors. Like I think about that in the sense of, like, what does it mean to build relationship, to be an interdependence? And like, what does it mean to push back against isolation, including the isolation that can come from the ways in which parenting is often organized in our societies?  **Brooke ** 37:30 Yeah.  **Zena ** 37:31 But I think also how to broaden the framing so that we're not solely thinking about the experiences of parents, but also, again, thinking more broadly about caregivers, right, and that many people are giving care to folks of different ages. And, more broadly, how do we all care for one another? You know, and thinking about what we can learn from disability justice around that, in the sense of really thinking about an active and ongoing practice of interdependence and collective care in all of its difficulties and messiness, and the transformative potential of that. And that—I don't, I don't mean that in a romanticized way, either. Like I know that, before we started recording, I was talking about, like, how many butts I wipe in my everyday life, you know. It's a butt wiping intensive phase of life, and I'm sure I will enter into other ones as I—as I and the people around me age, right, or become disabled in different ways. And so I think so much about, like, the practical, tangible hands-on aspects of this, and how that connects to the politics and values we might be bringing to this, you know. And for me, this is a form of praxis, it's a form of prefigurative world building, you know, really thinking about like what is the world I am working to build? And how am I living those values in my intimate domestic relationships? And like, it matters to me that I am doing this in my home space with the people with whom I am in the most intimate of relationships.  **Brooke ** 39:01 Yeah. **Zena ** 39:02 But I also don't want that intimacy to stop, like, at the walls of our house either. And so how can we then continue to expand that web of interdependence out and—you know, it's interesting, I say this like as a gay divorcee, right, like I have been gay married, I got gay divorced many years ago, I came full circle there. My partner and I—my current partner and I had a DIY backyard magic ritual this summer, you know, no state sanctioning involved. And it was really important to us in that, where we intentionally spoke our commitments to one another, and we spoke our commitments to our coparents and our kids. And then we spoke our commitments to the community and family that were gathered there. And that it was really intentionally about, like, how do we create a space where we can honor the interdependence that we are part of and that holds us and holds our family and holds our relationship, and like, what does it mean to make an active commitment to that, including in the context of actually ritualizing it. And as a—as a way to demonstrate the importance of that to the people that were there bearing witness and sharing that experience with us. **Brooke ** 40:11 Wow, that is—that is so beautiful. It really is. Thank you for sharing that. All right, so we've talked about some of the great parts of collective parenting, and the good that it brings to the children, the good that it brings to the other parents. You talked about some of the tools that you have that have made that practice more successful, like your weekly sit down on you, you know, discuss calendar things together. Are there pitfalls in collective parenting, you know, things that—lessons you've learned along the way, things that you've seen and heard in talking to others. You know, anything that sort of collective parents always try, but it never works out. So, you know, something somebody could avoid trying and inevitably failing at, because it always goes that way—or anything like that, that you might want to share.  **Zena ** 41:02 One of the things that I really appreciate about—and find consistently challenging—about this experience of collective parenting, and this particular form of, like, deeply intimate and sustained interdependence, is what it asks, I think—certainly, it asks of me in terms of building my capacity for conflict intimacy outside of romantic partnerships or professional relationships. Because I actually think that there are entire cultures and industries around how to have a better fight with your partner, and how to have a better fight with your coworker. And I think it is really interesting, and in some ways, unsurprising that there's not similar modeling in a maybe more mainstream way around how to actually move well through conflict in our friendships, our intimate relationships. And like, of course, this is a place where I think there's much to be learned from transformative justice. And—and! It is a whole thing to think about, like how to bring that into practice in your everyday life, you know, how to have a difficult conversation with someone you love and are intimate with to say, oh hey, like, that interaction we had in the kitchen, you know, was frustrating for me, here's why. While still giving us, like—one another, a lot of grace for, you know, what it means to be living in the fullness of who we are and all of our messiness and grouchiness, you know, in the way that nobody needs to be perfect or perfectly happy all the time. But I would say that that's something I've talked with my coparents about at different kinds of points is like, how do we get more practice—practiced at having those kinds of challenging conversations, including in the context of just also the fullness of our everyday lives. Like, you know, we do have a weekly kind of evening, just the adults, you know, checking in talking about parenting stuff, you know, bringing up anything that we might want to surface. And certainly we'll have one-on-one conversations when we need to work through something maybe that's kind of challenging or sticky that's come up between a couple of us. But I also am just tired a lot of the time, you know, and it's the end of the day, and I'm ready to go to bed. I don't want to be like, and now let's talk about our feelings for one hour.  **Brooke ** 43:14 Yeah.  **Zena ** 43:15 And sometimes you need to, right?  **Brooke ** 43:16 Yeah. **Zena ** 43:17 And I think also, for me, that's a place where, you know, speaking personally, I've found it really useful to have a therapist, you know, and to be able to reach outside my family system—of course, like, through friendships and other kinds of relationships. But I mention my therapist specifically because I think so much about how so much of parenting for me is also about that process of reparenting myself. And like, looking back on my own childhood experiences, and like, appreciating the gifts that I received through those experiences, but also the ways in which there are things I need to unlearn from how I was raised, you know, and thinking about how those show up in my parenting. So big fan of Internal Family Systems, you know, and I think that that's also a really interesting therapeutic modality in relation to collective parenting, because it's like, how are we holding the fullness of all the parts that make us up as individuals? And then how are we showing up in these more expansive intimate and familial relations? So that's another pro tip: if you're into therapy, get a therapy. Just a really good advice, you know, generally. As long as you can find one and afford one. And that's also often impossible, which I recognize. But I think, you know, the other thing I would say, too is, I think it can be sometimes—it can be easy to get caught up in perfectionism, or the notion that there is any sort of getting it right, you know?  **Brooke ** 44:36 Ah, yeah.  **Zena ** 44:37 And I don't think that there is. You know, I think something I feel really grateful for in our family is that we come in with a shared set of values around parenting, and a shared set of political commitments. And that makes a difference, I think— **Brooke ** 44:50 Absolutely. **Zena ** 44:51 —in terms of, we're able to move from that shared foundation in ways that makes the harder stuff easier to navigate and also the places where we do things differently—like, sometimes difference is perfectly okay. Right? It doesn't have to be perfect unity on every single thing, right? But it is really understanding, where do you need to be aligned on the stuff that really matters? Right? And how can—how can those shared values be helpful in that regard? **Brooke ** 45:16 Yeah. And I—and then I also imagine that having and practicing some amount of, you know, compassion and empathy and understanding for other people in different viewpoints—you know I, again, I'm not collected parenting, I'm a single parent. But my child's father and I are sort of opposite ends of the political spectrum almost at this point. And I try very hard to be in practice of, you know, never putting down her father, you know, that's part of who she is. And being clear that, yeah, you know, I don't agree with this thing that he said, I don't agree with his stance on this and whatnot. But never making that about who he is as a person, that never making it that he's wrong, even if I feel that way. But, you know, being able to, you know, articulate that we have this difference of opinion, in a way that holds compassion and kindness for that other parent in the situation, you know, even if I don't agree with them, even if, you know, I do think that some of their beliefs and practices are genuinely harmful to other human beings on this planet. But not putting that into my child so much, because they're going to, you know, learn that part on their own. And really, what I need to do is just be clear on what I believe, and not damage their other parenting relationship in the process. At least that's how I feel about it. And you know, I'm open to being wrong or having—learning that there's a better way to do that even than I am. **Zena ** 47:03 Yeah, and I mean, I think about it in this sense of, like, I sometimes think about how parenting feels like the most sustained and complex form of activism that I've ever done, in the sense that it asks me to live my values in a really intimate and ongoing and everyday way. And one of the places I continue to do learning is around children's liberation, confronting adult supremacy. You know, when I think about, like, Carla Joy Bergman the anthology "Trust Kids" that came home with AK Press, that's all about confronting adult supremacy and supporting youth autonomy. You know, I know Carla uses the phrase, "solidarity begins at home," you know, and I think so much about that, too, of like, what are the ways in which many of us have both been taught and internalize the relations of domination over children? And like, what does it look like to actually try and disentangle ourselves from those, I think really often insidious tendencies, like, even in those of us who are trying to, to the best of our ability, come at this from a more liberatory kind of way. So that for me, I think, feels like a really rich site of inquiry and practice in all of this too. And definitely a place where I'm really still learning.  **Brooke ** 48:12 Yeah. So I got the chance to interview Carla—almost a year ago now, it was February of last year—on, you know, we talked about—we talked about our book, and we talked a lot about adult supremacy. So that was February 24th 2023 episode, episode #59, should any of our listeners be curious to go back and talk about that. And it's funny, because, you know, when I—when I sat down to talk with her I actually wanted to talk with her about collective parenting. And then our conversation really took us into this realm more of talking about adult supremacy. And so that really ended up being the focus of that episode—it was great and really interesting, and I think an important component of parenting in general, but also collective parenting, as well. So yeah, there's a lot that I certainly have learned about that as well. In our last couple minutes here, I'm wondering if there were any other things that you might like to talk about with collective parenting, the ways it ties to other social movements or issues going on, or, or just generally, anything else that you want to say or share about collective parenting? **Zena ** 49:29 Yeah, I mean, I think I would want to speak to some of those bigger connections. And then, I think, end on a really practical tangible note, because it's something I really appreciate about this podcast is I feel like I always walk away with things I can do. And so, you know, something I do think is— **Zena ** 49:45 Something I think about is, like, you know, how can these forms of parenting, you know, in this practice of deepening our capacity for interdependence—and for intergenerational solidarity, right? Like, I don't assume that every person out there wants to be a parent, you know, or wants to necessarily be someone who's in an everyday caregiving relation. And I do believe very deeply that all of us should be committed to a practice of intergenerational solidarity. That includes giving a shit about the children in our community, and seeing them as self determined people whose liberation is bound up with ours. And I have absolutely no patience for adults who think it's cool to hate kids. It's not radical to hate kids. It's not cool. It's bullshit, and it's ageism. And I just feel so strongly about that, you know, similar to the ways in which I think so much about like what might it look like to build communities where we honor and ritually welcome in older adults, you know, disabled people, like, all of the people who capitalism and white supremacy and settler colonialism and ableism and ageism and childism tell us are less valuable, you know. When in fact, they are vital members of our communities and our movements. Right?  **Brooke ** 49:45 Take it away! **Zena ** 51:01 So I think about that. And I think about how we can also connect these practices to movements for abolition, you know, in thinking about the violence that the family policing system does to so many families, particularly Indigenous, Black, other racialized families, disabled families, you know, poor folks. And so what might be the ways in which these forms of collective parenting—and again, just deepening our capacity for interdependence and solidarity with kids in our communities and parents and families can also be a way to intervene against the violence of that kind of state surveillance, child apprehension, family separation, and just reproductive injustice, right, that is happening in so many communities today—including and not limited to the experiences of trans kids. So I want to pull in those threads. And I also want to take a moment to just to speak, maybe, to the folks that are asking themselves, like, do I want to parent in this way? And what might that look like? And so some of the things I would share would be: I think this is a place to begin by reflecting on your own wants and needs, you know. How do you imagine parenting? What would you want your role to look like? You know, if there aren't already kids in the picture, how do you imagine those kids coming on the scene? You know, would that be through a process of somebody becoming pregnant? Would it be through adoption or fostering? You know—and again, all of these things are part of this process. I think it's also really important with the folks that you might be doing this with, to really think about, like, having upfront conversations about your needs, your desires, your dreams, your visions, but also your fears and boundaries, and your desired family or coparenting structures, and how you want to distribute the care and parenting labor. Not that you're going to have all of that figured out upfront, but I think—I think it's useful to begin the conversation. And I think, also, to really understand that, like, none of this is fixed. It's going to change over time. And I would say, you know, maybe just a couple of other thoughts that I think are really pragmatic and useful are, I think, to also think about how "out" you want to be and can be about your collective or co parenting relationships. Like, are you in a position to be able to be out about this to your families of origin, to your neighbors, you know, to your kids, daycare providers, or school teachers, or health care providers, to your kids' friends and their parents? You know, like, we're really fortunate to be able to be out and well supported by our family of origin and the various caregivers and teachers and community members we have. But that is absolutely not the case for everyone, and I think is also entangled with, with the whiteness and other forms of privilege of our family that insulates us.  **Brooke ** 51:01 Yeah, mhm. **Brooke ** 51:01 Yeah. **Zena ** 51:02 And I think also, as we've talked about, like to think about where and how you want and need the state to sanction your family structure, you know, and that that can create a lot of barriers for folks, right, you know, including the ways in which that can disrupt people's access to disability or welfare benefits, for example, or bring the surveillance of the state onto you and your family system in ways that can be really harmful.  **Brooke ** 54:16 Yeah. **Zena ** 54:17 But it also can be an enabling tool in the system that exists. So I think, I think to ask those kinds of questions as well. So yeah, sort of kind of toggling between the like relational and values based and care work based piece, and then also the, like, what happens when your family system is turning outward to the world that exists now, and what are the ways in which you want to be navigating that world as purposefully as possible? **Brooke ** 54:42 Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. And I really appreciate the—that advice for folks considering the situation. It's obviously really important starting point, if you get to do that before you know children come in the family, or are something that you definitely have to think about if you're—if you're going into, like you said before, an organically forming collective parenting situation. So I appreciate that a lot. Before we say goodbye, I wanted to, again, thank you for being here with me today, talking to me, teaching me, I learned a lot today. And I—I'm really grateful for that and hope our listeners did as well. And then give you space if you have anything that you want to share, plug, endorse, etc. **Zena ** 55:41 Yeah, really appreciate the opportunity to be in conversation with you. And hopefully, there are some useful gems, and I can also share some resources with you to put in the show notes if there are just going to be some other books or things that that I think are useful for folks maybe to check out as kind of part of their contemplations here. And I would say, for plugging, I know you and I were chatting a little bit earlier. So I'm a writer, and my most recent book came out in 2021. I have a new one coming out in 2025, but it doesn't have a title yet. But my 2021 book is called "The Care We Dream Of: Liberatory and Transformative Approaches to LGBTQ+ Health." And the simplest way I can describe it is: the queer and trans health book that loves sex workers and hates cops. So if you want to learn about that, or learn more about me and my work—and I do actually write a little bit about our family in that book as well—you can find that and more information on my website, which is just zenasharman.com. **Brooke ** 56:35 Great. Thanks so much.  **Zena ** 56:38 Thank you. **Brooke ** 56:43 And to our listeners, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoy our podcast, please give it a like, drop a comment, or a review. Subscribe to us if you haven't already. These things make the algorithms that rule our world offer our show to more people. This podcast is produced by the anarchist publishing collective, Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. You can connect with us on Twitter @tangledwild, and also on Instagram. Or check out our website at tangledwilderness.org where you can find our extensive list of projects and publications. If you want to connect with me directly, you can find me on Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke, that's Brooke with an e. 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