
Rethinking Education
"Civilisation is a race between education and catastrophe." (HG Wells)
In this podcast, we take Wells at his word. Hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, Rethinking Education features long-form conversations with fascinating guests about how we might create a more diverse, intelligent, responsive educational ecosystem that works for *all* young people.
If this sounds interesting to you, welcome to Rethinking Education: Education's Critical Friend: https://rethinking-ed.org/podcast
Latest episodes

Aug 18, 2023 • 1h 49min
S3E16: Dennis Sherwood on The Great Grading Scandal: 1 in 4 grades is WRONG!
Dennis Sherwood, a management consultant specializing in creativity, innovation, and systems thinking, discusses his book 'Missing the Mark', focusing on the issue of inaccurate school exam grades. Topics include implementing a transformative program for positive change in schools, strategies to address unreliable grading, challenges in education reform, the problem of groupthink, and transitioning power in the education system.

Jul 16, 2023 • 2h 34min
S3E15: Cat Place & Ty Golding on the Curriculum for Wales
Ty Golding (https://twitter.com/tjgolding) is the Headteacher of Holton Primary School, in Barry town in South Wales. Ty has experience of teaching at every level of primary education, including nursery. He has worked with Welsh Government policy development and implementation, developing a national online platform for learners and most recently as Head of Curriculum Design & Development.
Cat Place (https://twitter.com/catrplace) grew up in Newport where she currently lives with her daughter. Cat is the headteacher of Jubilee Park Primary School in Newport, and had the privilege of opening the school in 2017 - a story you’ll hear all about in this episode.
In this episode we take a deep dive into the exciting developments that have been happening lately with the Curriculum for Wales. I was already excited about the Curriculum for ales, based on what little I knew of it, and this episode has only intensified that excitement. Based on the work of Professor Graham Donaldson, they have embraced a really bold vision for how to reform education and they’re going for it big time.
LINKS
The Oracy Curriculum: https://www.rethinking-ed.org/the-oracy-curriculum
Rethinking Education conference - Sat 23rd September, London: https://bit.ly/reconf23
Schools as learning organisations: https://www.oecd.org/education/school/school-learning-organisation.pdf
The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at www.rethinking-ed.org/contact, or via a social platform of your choosing:
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/RethinkingJames
Insta: https://www.instagram.com/drjamesmannion
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-mannion/
SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:
Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod
Buy me a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

May 27, 2023 • 1h 27min
S3E14: "It needs to be broken up" - Frank Norris and Julie Grimshaw on the ongoing crisis at Ofsted
Frank Norris is a former headteacher and HMI (His Majesty’s Inspector) with decades of experience leading and inspecting a wide range of schools and other settings including secure units, independent schools, prisons, initial teacher education as well as secondary and primary schools in England and abroad.
From 2014-19, Frank was the CEO of the Coop Academies Trust. The Coop Trust is highly regarded and is one of the highest performing for disadvantaged students according to reports by the DfE, EPI and Sutton Trust. Frank was awarded an MBE in summer 2019 for his services to education. He is also the co-host of the Frank & Stan podcast.
Julie Price Grimshaw is also a former HMI with a successful track record in supporting school improvement, particularly in teaching and learning. She is a school improvement advisor who has previously been an inspector of schools and initial teacher education, a PGCE course leader at Manchester Metropolitan University, an advisor to the Teacher Development AGency and the Department for Education, an external moderator for initial teacher education, and a teacher of English and Music. Julie started blogging about Ofsted in October 2021, and her website - julesmusings.blog - is well worth a visit.
LINKS:
Frank's website: https://frankwnorris.co.uk
Julie's blog: https://julesmusings.blog/blog/
Rethinking Education conference - Sat 23rd September, North London: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/the-rethinking-education-conference-2023-tickets-602718887417
Apply to speak: https://www.rethinking-ed.org/rethinked23
Metacognition in action - Fri 23rd June 2023, Central London: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/metacognition-in-action-tickets-591350293647
Making change stick: A practical guide to implementing school improvement - Wed 14th June, 4-5pm (FREE): https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/making-change-stick-a-practical-guide-to-implementing-school-improvement-tickets-630709207217
The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at https://www.rethinking-ed.org/contact, or via a social platform of your choosing:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/RethinkingJames
Insta: https://www.instagram.com/drjamesmannion
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-mannion/
SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:
Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod
Buy me a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

May 20, 2023 • 3h 17min
S3E13: Derry Hannam on becoming a democratic teacher in a state school
An astonishing conversation with Derry Hannam, a fascinating thinker and writer and practitioner of democratic education, and the author of the brilliant book ‘Another Way is Possible - Becoming a Democratic Teacher in a State School’.
In his 20 years as a teacher in English state secondary schools, Derry Hannam always tried to create environments where students could make choices about - and take control of - their own learning in a democratic and rights respecting context.
Derry has been described as a ‘bridge person’ who tries to bring about dialogue between the mainly private democratic education movement with its 500+ schools worldwide and state or public school systems. This has at times involved supporting democratic schools in legal actions, a role that Derry has played in England, Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands. He is currently supporting start-up democratic schools in several countries, advising them how best to work with their respective state systems.
LINKS
Another Way is Possible - Becoming a Democratic Teacher in a State School
Ebook: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/1029100
Paperback: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Another-Way-Possible-Democratic-Self-Directed/dp/B0942MSF5M
Rethinking Education conference - Sat 23rd September, North London: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/the-rethinking-education-conference-2023-tickets-602718887417
Apply to speak: https://www.rethinking-ed.org/rethinked23
Metacognition in action - Fri 23rd June 2023, Central London: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/metacognition-in-action-tickets-591350293647
Making change stick: A practical guide to implementing school improvement - Wed 14th June, 4-5pm (FREE): https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/making-change-stick-a-practical-guide-to-implementing-school-improvement-tickets-630709207217
The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at https://www.rethinking-ed.org/contact, or via a social platform of your choosing:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/RethinkingJames
Insta: https://www.instagram.com/drjamesmannion
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-mannion/
SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:
Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod
Buy me a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

Apr 15, 2023 • 56min
S3E12: David Phillips: “It has become a monster” [Heads talking about Ofsted #2]
This is the second in a series of episodes featuring headteachers and former heads talking about Ofsted.
David Phillips is the headteacher of Chilwell school in Nottingham.
He has been in senior leadership for over twenty years and a headteacher in both the academies and maintained sectors.
He is one of the East Midlands representatives for his professional association and has a particular focus on leadership and governance.
He has worked in schools throughout the East Midlands with projects in age range change, school partnership development and quality assurance.
David has worked in schools since before the inception of OFSTED and has experienced the week long visits, the short novel reports, the progress in a lesson visits, the data focussed judgements and has experienced virtually the full range of OFSTED judgements.
In short: David has a long and distinguished career, and has a richly informed perspective on the current debate about Ofsted, a controversy that is showing no signs of going away anytime soon.
LINKS:
Rethinking Ed Mighty Network: https://rethinking-education.mn.co
THE RETHINKING ED CONFERENCE 2023
Tickets: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/the-rethinking-education-conference-2023-tickets-602718887417
Apply to speak: https://www.rethinking-ed.org/rethinked23
The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at www.rethinking-ed.org/contact, or via a social platform of your choosing:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/RethinkingJames
Insta: https://www.instagram.com/drjamesmannion
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-mannion/
SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:
Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod
Buy me a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

Apr 6, 2023 • 1h 35min
S3E11: Martin Robinson on curriculum, community and the importance of anarchy
Martin Robinson is an educationalist, author, writer, consultant, orator and liberal artist. He worked in East London state schools for more than 20 years as a teacher, head of department, advanced skills teacher and school leader. For the last ten years he has worked as an education consultant delivering workshops and keynote speeches about curriculum design, teaching methodology and culture. He is a regular on the conference circuit both in the UK and internationally.
In this - the second part of James's epic conversation with Martin (the fist part features in S3E8) - we also discussed character education, the importance of anarchy, the value of violence, his fascinating book ‘Athena vs the machine’, the canon, decolonising the curriculum, communities of inquiry - to name just a few juicy morsels.
LINKS:
Martin’s website: https://www.martinrobinson.net/
Rethinking Ed Mighty Network: https://rethinking-education.mn.co
THE RETHINKING ED CONFERENCE 2023
Tickets: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/the-rethinking-education-conference-2023-tickets-602718887417
Apply to speak: https://www.rethinking-ed.org/rethinked23
The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at www.rethinking-ed.org/contact, or via a social platform of your choosing:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/RethinkingJames
Insta: https://www.instagram.com/drjamesmannion
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-mannion/
SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:
Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod
Buy me a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

Apr 2, 2023 • 1h 19min
S3E10: Rebecca Leek: Straitjackets, ethics and inspectors' eyebrows [Heads talking about Ofsted #1]
This is the first in a series of interviews with headteachers and former heads talking about Ofsted (the Office for Standards in Education - England's schools inspectorate).
Rebecca Leek is an experienced strategic leader who has worked across a wide range of settings and organisations, and she’s currently the Executive Director of the Suffolk Primary Headteachers' Assocation.
She has been a headteacher, executive headteacher, chief executive, a teacher and a Senco, and is a veteran of no fewer than 14 Ofsted inspections. She is a systems thinker, an innovator, and has been described as 'a harbinger of light'. She is increasingly in demand as a speaker, trainer and writer and brings with her a wealth of knowledge and insight from her involvement in a number of sectors including the arts, social enterprise, communications, permaculture and education.
Rebecca describes herself as a holistic leader and is interested in systems and governance, belonging, and spiritual sustenance within schools. As we will hear several times in this conversation, Rebecca’s practice as a permaculturist informs much of what she does, and in particular the principles of valuing diversity and what happens at the margins.
LINKS:
Rebecca's website: https://www.rebeccaleek.com/
Rebecca's recent article in the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/24/teachers-ofsted-inspections-schools-children
Rethinking Ed Conference 2023
Tickets: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/the-rethinking-education-conference-2023-tickets-602718887417
Apply to speak: https://www.rethinking-ed.org/rethinked23
The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at www.rethinking-ed.org/contact, or via a social platform of your choosing:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/RethinkingJames
Insta: https://www.instagram.com/drjamesmannion
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-mannion/
SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:
Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod
Buy me a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

Mar 17, 2023 • 2h 41min
S3E9: Melissa Benn on our divided education system
Melissa Benn comes from a long line of outspoken campaigners and prominent Parliamentarians. She was educated at Holland Park comprehensive and the London School of Economics where she graduated with a First in History, the first woman in a generation to do so.
Melissa’s journalism has appeared in a wide range of publications, including the Independent, the Times, Public Finance, Marxism Today, London Review of Books, Cosmopolitan and the Financial Times. She is a regular contributor to the Guardian, the New Statesman, and Teach Secondary magazine, where she writes a regular column.
Melissa has published nine books, including two novels. In her writing on education, Melissa has consistently tried to tackle contemporary myths about state education and to set out the case for a more equal system. With Fiona Millar she co-authored 'A Comprehensive Future: Quality and Equality For All Our Children', an influential pamphlet that challenged the drift towards the marketisation of state education within the then New Labour government and made the case for strong, non-selective, community schools.
This was followed by School Wars: The Battle for Britain’s Education, described by the Observer as ‘a tremendous book.In it, Melissa sketched the history of, and struggles around, secondary education from the post-war period onward and offered a critique of the education policies of successive governments, in particular the Coalition government of 2010-2015. With Janet Downs, she co-authored, 'The Truth About Our Schools: Exposing the Myths, Exploring the Evidence', which tackled some increasingly prevalent and pernicious myths about state education. Caroline Lucas MP described it as a ‘hugely important book that should be required reading for every Education Secretary.’
In Life Lessons, Melissa set out the Case for a National Education Service, and this book was described by Guardian Education columnist Fiona Millar as ‘an eloquent and much needed blueprint for reform when radical ideas are in short supply.’
I find Melissa’s writing to be a uniquely refreshing contribution to the education debate. I recommend catching up on Melissa’s many excellent columns in the publications listed earlier. And her book School Wars, which remains incredibly relevant, 12 years after publication, and I recommend it to anyone who wants to understand why we have the weird, patchwork education system that we have.
LINKS
Melissa's website: https://melissabenn.co.uk/
Rethinking Metacognition tickets: https://bit.ly/rethinkmetacog
Making Change Stick - contact: https://www.makingchangestick.co/contact
Rethinking Ed Mighty Network: https://rethinking-education.mn.co
The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at www.rethinking-ed.org/contact, or via a social platform of your choosing:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/RethinkingJames
Insta: https://www.instagram.com/drjamesmannion
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-mannion/
SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:
Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod
Buy me a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

Feb 25, 2023 • 2h 16min
S3E8: Martin Robinson on creativity, character education - and why trads are the true radicals
Martin Robinson is an educationalist, author, writer, consultant, orator and liberal artist. He worked in East London state schools for more than 20 years as a teacher, head of department, advanced skills teacher and school leader. For the last ten years he has worked as an education consultant delivering workshops and keynote speeches about curriculum design, teaching methodology and culture. He is a regular on the conference circuit both in the UK and internationally.
Of his first book, Trivium 21C: Preparing young people for the future with lessons from the past, Melissa Benn wrote: "Martin Robinson sets out on a quest to discover the kind of education he wishes for his daughter and we all learn a great deal in the process. I love his writing: wise, well informed, provocative, thinking-out-loud. A terrific feat."
Of his second book, Curriculum: Athena vs the Machine, Ben Newmark wrote: "While the dumb and brutal ugliness of instrumentalist education is all too familiar to many of us, never before has it been so clearly expressed or so convincingly unpicked and exposed... a beautifully written love letter to the very substance of education, a triumphant call to arms, and the manifesto on which the fightback against the Machine should be based."
And of his most recent book, Curriculum Revolutions, Tom Sherrington wrote: "A powerful conceptual framework, designed with the artful craftsmanship of a beautiful clock and insightful understanding of how teachers thrive."
LINKS:
Martin’s website: https://www.martinrobinson.net/
Rethinking Ed Mighty Network: https://rethinking-education.mn.co
The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at www.rethinking-ed.org/contact, or via a social platform of your choosing:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/RethinkingJames
Insta: https://www.instagram.com/drjamesmannion
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-mannion/
SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:
Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod
Shout James a herbal tea: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

Feb 10, 2023 • 2h 30min
S3E7: Fiona Cuthbertson on lobbying for Special Educational Needs and Disabilities (SEND) reform
Fiona Cuthbertson is a political lobbyist who has been involved in politics for many years. A former councillor and parliamentary candidate, Fiona now runs a public affairs agency where she works on a cross-party basis to help people get involved in the political process and to lobby on a range of issues that affect people’s lives - including, but not limited to, Special Educational Needs and Disabilities (SEND).
She is also the author of a political thriller, Party Games, which reveals the dark arts of the political world.
LINKS:
Fiona’s website: https://www.keystone-consulting.co.uk/
Right support, right place, right time - the 2022 SEND green paper: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/send-review-right-support-right-place-right-time
Valerie Hannon’s think piece on The Future School: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/ioe/departments-and-centres/centres/ucl-centre-educational-leadership/thinkpieces/future-school
James’s TEDs talk ‘How to change the world’: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvm9TYosmXo
Making Change Stick: https://www.makingchangestick.co/
Rethinking Ed Mighty Network: https://rethinking-education.mn.co
The Rethinking Ed online conference (88 amazing talks): https://www.rethinking-ed.org/reconf22
The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at www.rethinking-ed.org/contact, or on a social platform of your choosing:.
Twitter: https://twitter.com/RethinkingJames
Insta: https://www.instagram.com/drjamesmannion
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-mannion/
SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:
Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod
Buy me a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod