Flourishing After Addiction with Carl Erik Fisher

In the latest episode of Flourishing After Addiction, I am thrilled to be exploring the intricate relationships between addiction, recovery, pain, and embodiment with Margo Steines, a writer and person in recovery with a deep understanding of these themes.Margo Steines holds an MFA in nonfiction writing from the University of Arizona and serves as a faculty member in their acclaimed writing program. Her work, including her memoir-in-essays "Brutalities: A Love Story," offers a truly unique view into diverse experiences of addiction, including substance problems, self-harm, risky sex, eating disorder, and what is unquestionably the most captivating literary portrayal of exercise addiction I have ever read.I was so happy to encounter Brutalities a short while ago. It’s a bold exploration of intensity, extremity, and physicality. It’s a cautionary tale of the thin line between discipline and compulsion. In the end, it’s an inspiring story of one person’s path toward a more balanced and healthy embodiment, including the impossible task of becoming a parent.If that weren’t enough, we also talk about relationships, orthorexia, chronic illness, sex, sex work, and money. Margo walks us through her current recovery practices and the edges she’s navigating today. Finally, of course, we talk craft, including writing from and about pain.Margo Steines holds an MFA in nonfiction writing from the University of Arizona, where she is faculty in the Writing Program. Her work was named Notable in Best American Essays and has appeared in The Sun, Slate, Brevity, Off Assignment, The New York Times (Modern Love), the anthology Letter to a Stranger, and elsewhere. She is the author of the memoir-in-essays Brutalities. Margo is a born-and-raised New Yorker, a journeyman ironworker, and serves as mom to a small person. She is also a private creative coach and writing class facilitator. She can be found at her website, Twitter, and Instagram. In this episode:-her book: Brutalities -Margo’s “Write your story” class-Margo’s other classes-Leslie Jamison-Marya Hornbacher-Jerry StahlSign up for my newsletter and immediately receive my own free guide to the many pathways to recovery, as well as regular updates on new interviews, material, and other writings.

Shame and self-stigma can be powerfully limiting and harmful, and they are especially common among people with addictions. We’ve discussed on prior episodes of the podcast that there may be valuable and wise forms of shame, but psychotherapy research has also shown that the wrong sort of relationship to shame can also inhibit growth and stand in the way of recovery. So for this episode of Flourishing After Addiction, we dive into the practical aspects of working with shame, guided by Jason Luoma, Ph.D., a psychologist and a leading figure in this field. Jason is a leading expert in the scientific study of shame, self-criticism, stigma, and the interpersonal functions of emotion in addiction. He has done crucial research on those topics in the context of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) since 2002, and as a practicing clinician and leading trainer in the field, he is a true expert in strategies for dealing with shame.Jason breaks down the complex process into tangible steps, including viewing the treatment of shame as a continuous learning process in which we work toward looking at shame, rather than living out of it, unconsciously. The answer is not removing shame, but becoming aware of it and working with it: using our pain as a signpost for meaning and purpose, and aligning with personal values to guide us through the challenges of shame.This is also a great conversation for anyone who wants to hear about an inspiring model of social enterprise in mental health. As an entrepreneur and co-founder of the Portland Psychotherapy Clinic, Research, & Training Center, Jason also gives some insights into his pioneering and unique social enterprise, which dedicates its business revenue to fund scientific research and expand treatment for mental health.Based in Portland, Oregon, Dr.Jason Luoma is a researcher, entrepreneur, clinical psychologist, and psychotherapy trainer. Since 2002, Dr.Luoma has been deeply involved in researching shame, self-criticism, stigma, and the interpersonal functions of emotion, especially in addiction, including the first randomized trial of an intervention focused on helping people with shame in addiction. Heco-founded the Portland Psychotherapy Clinic, Research, & Training Center, a unique model combining therapy and research funding. As an author of key books on Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) and a leader in the field, Dr. Luoma also contributes through a popular blog for therapists and has held significant roles in the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science.In this episode:-Jason’s articles and books-Prior episode with Owen Flanagan - Slow and steady wins the race: a randomized clinical trial of ACT targeting shame in substance use disorders.-ACT Manual for Shame in Substance Use Disorder (which contains the “Feared Eulogy” exercise)-An introduction to loving kindness meditation from Sharon Salzberg -An investigation of stigma in individuals receiving treatment for substance abuse, Addictive Behaviors 32 (2007) 1331–1346.Sign up for my newsletter and immediately receive my own free guide to the many pathways to recovery, as well as regular updates on new interviews, material, and other writings.

For this episode of Flourishing After Addiction, I wanted a guest who could offer some insights into the journey of seeking help for addiction and recovery. What is going wrong with our systems and services, and where can people actually find care? Brian Hurley is the ideal person to help us with these questions, with his extensive experience as a practicing addiction physician, President of the American Society of Addiction Medicine, and Medical Director for Substance Use Prevention, Treatment and Harm Reduction for Los Angeles County's Department of Public Health.We talk about Brian’s background in the performing arts in Los Angeles, and how his personal experiences seeing the rise of methamphetamine in the mid-90s inspired him to dedicate his professional life to addiction medicine. We discuss his take on the state of addiction treatment today, and what it’s like for someone suffering with addiction to look for help and support.Brian speaks about the fragmented nature of addiction care and how that affects us all. We talked a fair bit about the need to distinguish addiction from other kinds of substance use problems (considering, e.g., people who are on milder end of spectrum or who may not identify with idea of addiction), and the concrete effects of those considerations on our systems.Brian highlights the disparities in treatment access based on insurance and location, and the urgent need for systemic changes. He emphasizes the importance of improving language and understanding around addiction, not only for professionals but also for the public. By discussing the nuances of substance use disorder and addiction, Brian paints a vivid picture of the diverse experiences of people facing these challenges.Of course, we talk about the current overdose crisis and the urgent need for change. Brian gives some shocking statistics about the low percentage of people receiving specialized care and draws on examples from European models, particularly from Portugal, to illustrate successful strategies. He shares insights from his experiences on a recent trip to Europe, suggesting ways to modernize treatment in the U.S. and remedy the “treatment gap.”Brian’s approach to addiction medicine is deeply rooted in evolving public policy perspectives. He advocates for a systemic view that requires transformation in leadership, administration, and policy. In this way, he also urges for a more comprehensive and empathetic approach that incorporates recovery. Whether you are a clinician, person in recovery, or otherwise, you’ll find useful pointers for how to change, and how to participate in change.Brian Hurley is an addiction physician, President of the American Society of Addiction Medicine, and Medical Director for Substance Use Prevention, Treatment and Harm Reduction for LA County's Department of Public Health. He works on projects that make services for people with addiction more accessible. He lives and works in Los Angeles with his husband and several dogs.In this episode:- The American Society of Addiction Medicine- The treatment gap: only 6% of people with substance use disorders received treatment- episode 12 with John Kelly - episode 22 with John StrangSign up for my newsletter and immediately receive my own free guide to the many pathways to recovery, as well as regular updates on new interviews, material, and other writings.

Valerie Mason-John (Vimalasara) is a writer, Buddhist teacher, a person in recovery, and the founder of Eight Step Recovery. In this episode of Flourishing After Addiction, Vimalasara shares their transformative journey, beginning with childhood in an orphanage and evolving through various addictions, with a particular focus on their struggle with bulimia, to arrive at their current role as a spiritual teacher and author. Their story is a testament to the complexity of eating disorders and their commonalities with traditional addictions, with implications for all varieties of compulsive behavior.Through probing the nature of compulsive eating, Vimalasara describes the essence of addiction from the Buddhist perspective. We discuss how to work with craving, chronic relapse, and the drive toward substitute addictions, redirecting oneself instead toward “sobriety of thoughts and feelings,” highlighting Vimalasara's journey toward finding balance and peace, rather than simply stopping the behavior.This discussion is also a great exploration of various recovery methods and pathways, including especially the mutual help recovery community Vimalasara created, the Eight Step Recovery program. If you are curious to learn more about what actually happens in these types of alternative mutual help groups, this is a great introduction. This part of the conversation also highlights the value of a pluralistic, diverse approach to recovery, one that is necessarily in constant flux—for example, how Vimalasara is now in a relationship with a “big book thumper!”Finally, we discuss Vimalasara’s perspective on how addiction intersects with timeless issues in mental health and wellness, from her first addiction—“to be in control of life”—to her biggest addiction: “to be loved and noticed.” They give us practical pointers for practice, working with difficult feelings, and concludes with a brief guided practice that can be helpful for a variety of habitual behaviors.Valerie Mason-John (Vimalasara) is an award-winning author and editor of ten books, including Eight Step Recovery: Using The Buddha’s Teachings to Overcome Addiction, and Detox Your Heart: Meditations for Emotional Trauma. Their book I Am Still Your Negro: An Homage to James Baldwin was shortlisted for both the Dorothy Livesay and Gerald Lampert Awards. They are the co-founder of the mutual help group Eight Step Recovery, which holds meetings in the UK, USA, Canada, Mexico, India, Finland, and online. They are a senior teacher in the Triratna Buddhist community.In this episode: - Their book - Eight Step Recovery - The ethical precepts of Buddhism, stated positively. - Kevin Griffin, friend of the pod. My interview with him here.Sign up for my newsletter and immediately receive my own free guide to the many pathways to recovery, as well as regular updates on new interviews, material, and other writings.

Clancy Martin is a philosopher, an author, a recovering alcoholic, and the survivor of more than ten suicide attempts. His new book, How Not to Kill Yourself, is a chronicle of his suicidal mind, and—of particular interest to us here—an investigation of the ways his suicidal thinking functioned like an addiction. We dive into all that and much more in this week’s episode of Flourishing After Addiction. One of Clancy's central arguments is: "thinking about killing oneself and addictive thinking have a lot more in common than is normally recognized." There is a clear connection to his experience with alcoholism, and beyond that, he describes how he was addicted to a certain idea of himself and his life, including the ways he used luxury, consumption, and sex in similar ways. He argues that addiction is far more insidious and pervasive than usually believed. Also, while Clancy identifies as an alcoholic, he challenges the on/off or binary way of looking at addiction.During his recovery, Clancy turned to Buddhism and took a leap of faith in an existential sense. He explains how Buddhist practice is the centerpiece of his recovery and compares it to his experience with 12-step recovery, and he discusses the contribution of existentialist philosophy in his recovery.Speaking more broadly in the philosophical sense, Clancy is interested in the role of practical ethics in recovery. We discuss his changing perspectives on family life, work, and interconnectedness, including lessons from Bertrand Russell on how to be “free and happy,” as well as considerations about ego and self-centeredness. In the end, there’s even a little time to talk a little bit about craft and writing.Clancy Martin is a philosopher, an author, a recovering alcoholic, and the survivor of more than ten suicide attempts. He is professor of philosophy at the University of Missouri in Kansas City and Ashoka University in New Delhi. His previous books include the novel How to Sell and many books on philosophy, and his writing has appeared in The New Yorker, New York, The Atlantic, Harper’s Magazine, Esquire, The New Republic, Lapham’s Quarterly, The Believer, and The Paris Review.In this episode: - LitHub excerpt of Clancy's new book - The Drunks' Club, Harper's Magazine - Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind,  Shunryu Suzuki - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche - Ethan Canin, of the Iowa Writers' Workshop - Bertrand Russell on How to be Free and Happy (a book; here is a fun gloss)Sign up for my newsletter and immediately receive my own free guide to the many pathways to recovery, as well as regular updates on new interviews, material, and other writings.

Judson Brewer ("Dr. Jud") is a renowned addiction psychiatrist and neuroscientist who has spent over two decades studying the mechanisms of addiction and the effects of mindfulness on behavior change. On this episode of Flourishing After Addiction, it was great to talk with him about some extraordinary connections between the science of addiction and contemplative practice. We talk about Jud's own experience with panic attacks, how he found mindfulness to be a powerful tool to work with anxiety, and how this personal experience helped him to see the connections between addictive cravings and the fundamental processes of anxiety. More broadly, we discuss how the urge to control our experiences is often the root of our suffering ("control is the problem, not the solution"). He connects this notion in how the brain's reward-based learning system works and how it can lead to perversely reinforcing unhelpful habits. And connecting this work to broader topics in contemplative practice, he describes how Buddhist philosophy and the concept of craving relates to the underpinnings of addiction he's uncovered in his neuroscience lab. We talk about the role of values and ethics in recovery and in treatment, including how to work with ethics as a practice without getting bogged down by a sense of obligation or guilt--approaching ethics with a sense of curiosity and openness, rather than judgment or rigidity.And, to conclude the episode, Jud leads us through a beautiful guided practice of opening and curiosity, a mini-meditation to help us cultivate awareness and non-judgmental acceptance.Dr. Jud Brewer is an addiction psychiatrist, neuroscientist, mindfulness practitioner, and author. He is the Director of Research and Innovation at the Mindfulness Center and an associate professor at the School of Public Health at Brown University. His research focuses on the neural mechanisms of mindfulness and how it can be used to treat addiction and other behavioral disorders. He has published numerous scientific articles, and he is the author of The Craving Mind (Yale University Press, 2017) and the New York Times best-seller, Unwinding Anxiety (Avery/Penguin Random House, 2021). He is also an experienced mindfulness teacher and has trained thousands of people in the art of meditation and mindfulness-based approaches to behavior change.In this episode: - Jud's website- his apps for habit change - Episodes mentioned: Melissa Febos, John Kelly, Elias Dakwar, and Eric Garland - Jud's academic work connecting addiction science to the Buddhist concept of dependent origination: "Craving to quit"- "Meditation experience is associated with differences in default mode network activity and connectivity"Sign up for my newsletter and immediately receive my own free guide to the many pathways to recovery, as well as regular updates on new interviews, material, and other writings. 

Zach Siegel is one of our most respected and prolific journalists on addiction and drug policy. He is also a thoughtful, introspective soul who thinks deeply about his own history of opioid addiction. In his many writings, he has often referenced that personal history, but he's never really had the chance to tell his own addiction story from start to finish. Until now! Listen to this episode of Flourishing After Addiction to hear Zach's origin story, plus a deep dive into his recent cover story in Harper's magazine about surgery for opioid addiction.Zach and I talked about some enlightening moments along his path, including the role of Suboxone in his treatment, anti-medication stigma, as well some big questions about identity: what does it mean to say you're in recovery, and how does Zach make sense of that idea in his own life?We also focus in on his recent, fascinating Harper’s story: a feature about deep brain stimulation surgery for addiction. In the piece, he describes how people with serious, intractable addictions receive this (technically) non-invasive surgery--a kind of neuroscience advance I myself researched as part of a fellowship in medical school. It's a terrific story in its own right, but it also invokes some big themes, such as the purposes of addiction treatment, or how human factors like relationships, care, and hope continue to be relevant even in what seems like the most reductionist biomedical treatment settings.Zachary A. Siegel is a freelance journalist and researcher living in Chicago. His work focuses on public health, mental health, and the criminal-legal system; he also reviews books, movies, and TV shows, on occasion; and he co-writes Substance, a newsletter about drugs and crime, with journalist Tana Ganeva. He’s reported for a variety of news outlets and magazines: Harper’s, New York Times Magazine, The Atlantic, and more. He holds a journalism position at The Action Lab of Northeastern University’s Law School, working on projects like Changing The Narrative. He also co-hosts a podcast called Narcotica with his friends and fellow drug journalists Troy Farah and Chris Moraff. Find him on his website and on Twitter.In this episode: -  Substance - his substack newsletter - his podcast Narcotica - Changing the Narrative (project of Health action lab at Northwestern)- Only Lovers Left Alive - A Hole in the HeadSign up for my newsletter and immediately receive my own free guide to the many pathways to recovery, as well as regular updates on new interviews, material, and other writings. 

A little over 40 years ago, Dr. Steven Hayes experienced his first panic attack—when he was a young assistant professor in psychology, no less! In the intervening years, and drawing in part on his own recovery from panic disorder, he developed Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and produced a huge body of work that has revolutionized our understanding of human language and cognition. Today, he is one of the most highly-cited scholars in the world, across all disciplines of study. And, he remains a soulful and wise clinician, who generously shared some of his insights about addiction for this episode of the Flourishing After Addiction podcast.Steve and I talk about “psychological flexibility:” a revolutionary pivot toward working with our thoughts and feelings, rather than trying to fight or change them. One definition of psychological flexibility is to be open, grounded, and committed to values-based action. We discuss making sense of addiction in his framework, and he speaks out against the biomedicalization and over-categorization of the phenomenon. He talks about the centrality of values and why it’s necessary to find a life worth living as part of recovery. We discuss Steve’s understanding of spirituality and transcending a limited self-concept, and how that fits into his work. And—something I’m so happy Steve prompted me to do—he leads us all through a guided exercise to take perspective and to get a taste of dropping the small self.  I’m really happy that he’s given us this practice experience. Find a quiet place and give it a try (it’s only about 8 minutes or so, toward the end of the interview). Steven C. Hayes is a Nevada Foundation Professor of Psychology at the University of Nevada. An author of 46 books and nearly 650 scientific articles, he is especially known for his work on "Acceptance and Commitment Therapy" or “ACT”, which is one of the most widely used and researched new methods of psychological intervention over the last 20 years. His popular book Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life for a time was the best-selling self-help book in the United States, and his more recent book A Liberated Mind was released to wide acclaim. Dr. Hayes has been President of several scientific societies and has received several national awards, such as the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies. According to major indices like the Institute for Scientific Information and Google Scholar, he is ranked among the most cited scholars in all areas of study in the world. Read more at his website.In this episode: - His faculty page- the "new paradigm" in mental health treatment we only briefly discussed (good for clinicians to check out!): Learning Process-Based Therapy: A Skills Training Manual for Targeting the Core Processes of Psychological Change in Clinical Practice- His TEDx talk on psychological flexibility: How love turns pain into purpose - His  2nd TEDx talk: Mental Brakes to Avoid Mental BreaksSign up for my newsletter and immediately receive my own free guide to the many pathways to recovery, as well as regular updates on new interviews, material, and other writings.

In the weeks prior to this episode, the story broke that the UK’s Middlesbrough clinic, which offered a pioneering Heroin Assisted Treatment (HAT) program, is slated to close because of budget cuts. Patients were allowed to self-administer medical-grade heroin (officially, diamorphine) under medical supervision. One of the key scientific studies that supports this intervention is the RIOTT Trial—“Randomised Injectable Opiate Treatment”—and I got to speak to the principal investigator of that trial, a giant in the field of addiction research, and the first knight to appear on the Flourishing After Addiction podcast: John Strang.Prof Sir Strang is a pioneering addictions researcher and practicing physician who, over the course of his distinguished career, has made major contributions to national and international policy. Of particular interest to those of us who are fascinated with the intellectual and cultural history, he’s had a front-row seat to the scientific and cultural evolution of views on addiction, including studies under his mentor, Griffith Edwards, another major figure in the addictions field who was instrumental in shaping modern medical definitions of substance use problems. We cover a lot of ground in this one, and while we tackle some weighty topics, ranging from fundamental principles in addiction treatment to the very definition of addiction, Prof Sir Strang has a gift for explaining these concepts in clear, articulate terms—a skill no doubt honed by years of interfacing with governments and departments of health. Above all, I think he does a fantastic job of returning to some of the key, pragmatic questions raised by these topics: what does it mean to have an addiction problem, and how do I make sense of my issues? What is the point of medications and other treatments for addiction? What are the core principles in addiction care? And in the end, just what kind of contribution can science make to better public policy and practice? I hope you find this conversation as useful as I did.Professor Sir John Strang is a physician and an academic. He’s the Director of the National Addiction Centre (NAC) and Head of the Addictions Department at King’s College London. He has been an addictions psychiatrist for nearly 40 years, and has led the group at the Maudsley Institute since 1995. He has published more than 500 scientific papers in the addiction field and has contributed to national and international policy, chairing policy committees and expert groups. In 2016, he was awarded a Knighthood in the Queen’s Birthday Honours for ‘services to Medicine, Addictions and Public Health’. Read more at his faculty page, and for more about the King's College London addiction center, see this link.In this episode:- the RIOTT trial-Griffith Edwards and some of his writing on the dependence syndrome-Drug Policy and the Public Good-Setting Limits: Gambling, Science and Public Policy- BBC: "Pioneering Middlesbrough heroin addiction clinic to close"- Gerald Klerman: Psychotropic Hedonism vs. Pharmacological CalvinismSign up for my newsletter and immediately receive my own free guide to the many pathways to recovery, as well as regular updates on new interviews, material, and other writings.

As I’ve written before, Beth Macy has an extraordinary gift for encapsulating our nation’s greatest challenges in gripping, intimate, and wise stories of everyday American struggles. She is a bestselling author of several books about addiction, inequality, and justice, and it was a great pleasure to talk to her about her latest book, Raising Lazarus, on this latest episode of Flourishing After Addiction. On a personal note, I’ve enjoyed seeing this book take shape behind the scenes, and we get to talk about her writing and research process a bit too—I was lucky to make a connection with her early in the process of releasing my own book, so it was fun to talk about how our work has informed each other and how her thinking has evolved over time.In our conversation, Beth opens up about her personal experiences growing up as a child of alcoholics and what she did to heal—as she notes, something she’s never discussed in prior interviews. Of course, we also talk a fair bit about her book, including how this work is focused on what she sees as the most likely solutions to our current crisis. It’s a big departure for her and a full-throated celebration of harm reduction. We talk about the innovative people she profiles, folks working tirelessly to provide evidence-based care and harm reduction services even in really inhospitable communities and situations. It’s a daunting topic, but Beth has also found a great deal of hope there too.Beth Macy is a Virginia-based journalist with three decades of experience and an award-winning author of three New York Times bestselling books: Factory Man, Truevine, and Dopesick. Her first book, Factory Man, won a J. Anthony Lukas Prize and Dopesick was short-listed for the Carnegie Medal, won the L.A. Times Book Prize for Science and Technology, and was described as a “masterwork of narrative nonfiction” by The New York Times. Dopesick has now been made into a Peabody award-winning and Emmy-winning Hulu series on which she acted as an executive producer and cowriter. Her latest book, Raising Lazarus: Hope, Justice, and the Future of America’s Overdose Crisis, was published on August 16, 2022. You can find her on Instagram, Twitter, and her personal website. In this episode:- The work of Gail D'Onofrio, MD, Professor of Emergency Medicine at Yale and pioneer in ED-initiated buprenorphine - Estimation of the Time Needed to Deliver the 2020 USPSTF Preventive Care Recommendations in Primary Care- Beth’s personal essay about her childhood on Oprah Daily- “By the book” interview with Beth- Beth’s guest essay in the New York Times: “The Two Simple Edicts of Successful Addiction Treatment”. Those edicts are: (1) “You can get better.” (2) “Don’t disappear.”- Link to all of Beth’s  books: Raising Lazarus, Dopesick, Truevine, and Factory ManSign up for my newsletter and immediately receive my own free guide to the many pathways to recovery, as well as regular updates on new interviews, material, and other writings.