The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics

While I was recently in College Station visiting the Human Behavior Lab, I had the joy of meeting Dr. Maddock when he came by to chat with us for a bit. I hadn’t met him before, but in learning about his work and research it was clear that we had to do an interview. Thankfully, I had my equipment with me and he had some spare time to talk about some of the incredibly cool stuff he and his team are doing.  Dr. Maddock is a professor in the department of environmental and occupational health at the school of public health at Texas A&M University and is also the co-director of the Center for Health and Nature. He serves on the Brazos County Board of Health. Not to mention he is editor in chief of the Journal of Healthy Eating and Active Living. He has authored more than 130 scientific articles which have been cited more than 5000 times, plus his research has been featured on/in The Today Show, BBC, CNN, Eating Well, Prevention and Good Housekeeping and he has given lectures around the world. This isn’t even all of his bio, but I wanted to let you know a little bit about this awesomeness before you hear about the cool stuff he is doing. Listen in to hear all about the connection between nature and our health. It is really amazing! Show Notes: [01:16] Dr. Maddock is a professor in the department of environmental and occupational health at the School of Public Health at Texas A&M University and is also the co-director of the Center for Health and Nature. [03:47] Jay shares about his background and what he does. [05:16] They are really looking at how natural environments change health. Spending time in nature really changes your health. [05:59] They are now trying to understand what is the perfect dose of nature and how they can use some of the models to get more people into nature. [07:46] Virtual reality lets us break the senses up. They can do a study experimenting with only one sense.  [08:40] They are trying to figure out the essential pieces of nature that we need for healthy benefits. [09:47] People like different types of nature.  [10:49] The more that we feel we are in the environment, the more effect it has on our physiology.  [11:29] There are so many questions we can answer in virtual reality that would be difficult to do in person.   [12:48] Making environments immersive and interesting is important for people. Being in real nature is always best for us, but since that isn’t always possible, it will be great to have other options.  [14:49] How we can integrate nature into our surrounding and environment is important.  [15:55] They have been looking at the effect of travel and nature. So many times when we go on vacation we want to go to some beautiful natural spot, but we also have an effect on the environment.  [17:34] The ability to virtually tour places that are untouched would be really cool.  [18:11] The biggest thing with health and nature is it doesn’t work without conservation.  [18:45] One of the other things they have been working on is looking at some of the behavioral theories that we use and how we adopt these to increase people’s time in nature.  [21:27] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [23:53] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: The Behaviour Business, by Richard Chataway Never Go With Your Gut, by Gleb Tsipursky What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You, by Melina Palmer Evolutionary Ideas, by Sam Tatam How to Change, by Katy Milkman Connect with Jay:  Texas A&M University School of Public Health Jay on Twitter Jay on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: Checking in with Dr. Marco Palma (episode 202) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Inside the Texas A&M Human Behavior Lab (episode 33) Announcing! Certificate in Applied Behavioral Economics from the Texas A&M Human Behavior Laboratory (episode 115) Using Biosensors to Unpack Human Behavior, with iMotions’ Jessica Wilson (episode 182) The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem (episode 126) Vision Does Not Happen In The Eyes, But In The Brain - On The Sense of Sight (episode 24) Why Burnt Popcorn Has Derailed So Many Meetings - On The Sense Of Smell (episode 25) Why You Actually Taste With Your Nose - On The Sense Of Taste (episode 26) Did You Hear That? - On The Sense of Hearing (episode 27) Why Picking Something Up Makes People More Likely To Buy - On The Sense Of Touch (episode 28) NUDGES & Choice Architecture (episode 35) Priming (episode 18) You Have More Influence Than You Think with Vanessa Bohns (episode 197) Using Behavioral Science to Tackle Addiction (and the Lessons for any Business), Interview with Richard Chataway (episode 134) How to Avoid Disasters When Returning to the Office, with Dr. Gleb Tsipursky (episode 175) Adjusting Your Mindset: Tips To Overcome Imposter Syndrome And More (episode 13) AI, Blockchain, Machine Learning, & Behavioral Economics with Manuj Aggarwal (episode 192) The Overwhelmed Brain and Its Impact on Decision Making (episode 32) How to Set, Achieve & Exceed Brainy Goals (episode 70) How To Set Up Your Own Experiments (episode 63) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Texas A&M Certificate Program Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today’s episode is an update on all the exciting stuff going on at the Human Behavior Laboratory at Texas A&M University. Last week I was able to spend two full days in the Human Behavior Lab (one of my favorite places in the world if I’m honest) and today’s episode is featuring the director of the lab, Dr. Marco Palma.  This is actually his third time being on The Brainy Business podcast. (He might be the first one to do that…?) Since the first time he was on the show (way back in episode 33 when I visited the lab for the first time) we have done so much together, including creating the certificate in Applied Behavioral Economics. I am honored to teach so many amazing courses for that program which has led to relationships and conversations with wonderful people around the world. (Sneak peek! Some of those projects are going to be featured in the coming weeks, and I am very excited to showcase more of my own work in the podcast.) The lab has done tons of experiments since I was there in January 2019 for that first interview, and about 40 of them have been published in the last few years. Don’t worry, we won’t try to cover all of them today. Instead, Dr. Palma and I selected a choice few that really resonate and can be applicable for listeners like you. Show Notes: [00:52] I spent two full days last week in the Human Behavior Lab at Texas A&M University.  [01:33] Dr. Palma has been on the show before (this is actually his third time – I think he might be the first to do that).  [05:29] There have been many changes since the last time I featured the lab on the show: in terms of the infrastructure, they are hiring new people, and students have graduated and started their own labs.  [06:43] ] One of the fascinating parts about studying human behavior is that we are all, to a certain degree, experts.  [08:26] Marco’s tips for choosing between a PhD, masters or a certificate program like the one we have at Texas A&M.  [10:04] It is an exciting time to be at Texas A&M because of all of the different dimensions of human behavior that are being studied from different angles.  [12:05] The lab has done tons of experiments since I (Melina) was there in January of 2019 and about 40 of them have been published. [13:05] Dr. Palma shares about their charitable donations experiment.   [14:20] In the paper they concentrate on matching 1-to-1 versus giving seed money with charitable donations. The matching scheme is supposed to motivate people to give because then their money can go further.  [17:04] The general idea is that matching funds are always a good idea because they encourage others to donate, but as Dr. Palma shows, there could be a negative behavioral message being shared underneath the surface that actually decreases donations in this type of approach.  [19:10] Being able to communicate that a percentage of your money goes directly to the charity goes a long way and is a way to differentiate yourself. You want to be able to stand out and be a high-quality charity.  [20:10] Next Dr. Palma shares about their calorie labeling experiment. In this paper, they are looking at the policies requiring large restaurant chains to display the calorie content of food on food menus. The intention of the policy was for people to realize the number of calories in food and act accordingly in trying to reduce calorie consumption. [22:57] Some studies have shown this works, some show that people don’t change their consumption, and others show that they eat more calories when the numbers are shown on the menu. How can all three things be true at one time? Dr. Palma shares about their research and why relativity matters. [24:32] You’re not going to change how you eat in response to the calories if you expect something to have a lot of calories because you didn’t really learn anything new.   [25:43] It’s dependent on the menu you see, your expectations, and realization of reality. In this context you can have scenarios where you increase calorie consumption, you make no changes in calorie consumption, and in which you actually have a reduction which is the intention of the law. [28:32] In another paper they were looking at decision-making under time pressure.  [29:49] Once you have a set (number of choices) we are very good at optimizing the thing that we like the most.  [31:04] However, generating a choice set is very difficult for us to do (businesses should focus on this!). If someone else constructs the choice set for us and gives us a choice among 3-5 options, we are actually pretty good at choosing something that we would probably like. We tend to choose things we value a lot.  [32:15] The less cost we have to invest in making a decision will lead to an increase in satisfaction. Not only is the business going to gain, but the customer is also going to be happier.  [33:00] Making decisions when you are hungry or emotional tends to change the way that we act.  [34:58] In another paper looks at how hunger might change our cognitive capacity.  [36:22] They found there was no difference in the cognitive performance of normal-weight individuals whether they had the option to order food or not. Obese individuals had a lower performance relative to the normal weight individuals so they were more affected by being hungry – unless they were able to pre-order their snack. Why?  [37:51] The obese individuals anticipated the food and the anticipation was enough to increase their cognitive capacity. (It essentially eliminated the negative impacts of feeling hungry.) [39:37] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [41:44] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Influence is Your Superpower, by Zoe Chance You Have More Influence Than You Think, by Vanessa Bohns What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You, by Melina Palmer The Voltage Effect, by John List The Elements of Choice, by Eric Johnson Connect with Human Behavior Lab:  Human Behavior Lab Website HBL on Twitter HBL on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: Announcing! Certificate in Applied Behavioral Economics from the Texas A&M Human Behavior Laboratory (episode 115) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Inside the Texas A&M Human Behavior Lab (episode 33) Using Biosensors to Unpack Human Behavior, with iMotions’ Jessica Wilson (episode 182) The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem (episode 126) Influence Is Your Superpower with Yale’s Dr. Zoe Chance (episode 189) You Have More Influence Than You Think with Vanessa Bohns (episode 197) Anchoring (episode 11) Relativity (episode 12) Herding (episode 19) Framing (episode 16) NUDGES & Choice Architecture (episode 35) Time Pressure (episode 74) The Overwhelmed Brain and Its Impact on Decision Making (episode 32) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Texas A&M Certificate Program Human Behavior Lab Research Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Katelyn Bourgoin. As you will hear during our conversation, I met Katelyn via Twitter where she has been kind enough to tag me many times when people ask for recommendations for people who are using psychology in marketing or for business as well as for podcast recommendations, books, or just for someone to follow. Katelyn also has a phenomenal newsletter that is so engaging — I just love how well she understands her audience. We will be talking about that a lot more during the conversation today.   Katelyn uses reciprocity so well by shining the light on others and it comes back in a really great way. Before any non-marketers tune out and say this episode is not for you, know that creating engaging content that people want to respond to matters for everyone whatever your industry, whoever you are communicating with, and whatever you want to achieve. People like to work with those they like. Framing your messages with the recipient in mind is never a bad idea. Katelyn is a marketer and market researcher so that is the lens of her statements throughout the episode, but I challenge you to consider all the ways this can be useful to you in your life and business. For anyone with a newsletter or striving to have one, and who has ever been mystified by Twitter and especially Twitter threads, get ready for some awesome tips and free resources.  Show Notes: [00:41] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Katelyn Bourgoin.  [02:13] Katelyn is a marketer and market researcher so that is the lens of her statements throughout the episode, but the tips are for everyone! [04:24] Katelyn shares about herself and how she found herself in the behavioral sciences.  [05:50] She ended up working with a bunch of companies and seeing the same problem over and over: they just didn’t know who their best customers were or why they bought. That led her to launch the company she has today called Customer Camp. [08:18] When she decided that she wanted to help people overcome that problem she discovered an innovation framework known as Jobs to Be Done.  [09:56] Jobs to Be Done is really important for understanding the context of the customer situation and what would cause them to seek out and choose a new solution.  [11:44] Their company exists to help people build a better understanding of their buyers through educating them on why people buy, training, and products. [12:39] It was thinking beyond the research and what they do to what would be engaging for potential customers.  [14:54] Having a functionally better product is important but there are all these other factors that you also need to consider when you think about the job holistically.  [16:00] You have to not just look at the functionality of a product but you have to consider the social and emotional aspects too.  [18:45] In having these conversations about the buyers' journey, pulling out the details, and mapping them, that is what leads to being able to design better marketing.  [20:14] Talk to buyers who have bought to try and understand their buying journey — that’s a step a lot of marketers are missing.  [23:00] The trigger technique is a good solution for pulling out the bits that you can make most actionable and share with your team to back up your strategy. (Freebie in the links below!) [25:47] When they designed the newsletter, they thought about what was the job of the newsletter. They wanted to create a newsletter to make people feel like it was food for their brains. [26:58] It has to be something really quick to consume and it has to be something where you walk away feeling like you have ideas for applying them to your own work. [29:55] People need to feel like they are getting something back to open and read a newsletter.  It can be inspiration, validation, or something to forward.  [32:02] They realized it was better to have consistency with their newsletter even in the subject line.  [34:44] Testing and seeing what works is very helpful.   [37:54] Choose the social media platform where you think you can be consistent.  [39:21] Make a big effort to follow the right people. She follows people who inspire her and she can learn from.  [40:57] Leverage the opportunity to highlight work that other people are doing. [42:54] Melina shares about one of Katelyn’s Twitter threads. [44:32] When it comes to writing a thread, the first tweet is the most important one.  [47:34] Understanding your customers when it comes to figuring out demand is everything. Clarity of what works doesn’t come from sitting around in a boardroom and thinking about it. It comes from actually engaging with customers. [49:05] If you want to market better, really be obsessed about understanding customers.  [50:28] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [52:31] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10! Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: The Innovator's Dilemma, by Clayton Christensen Atomic Habits, by James Clear The Experience Maker, by Dan Gingiss The Jobs to Be Down Playbook, by Jim Kalbach Marketing to Mindstates, by Will Leach Connect with Katelyn:  Katelyn’s Website Katelyn on Twitter Katelyn on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem (episode 126) Already Heard That One? Try These:  The Truth About Pricing  (episode 5) Functional Fixedness (episode 194) NUDGES & Choice Architecture (episode 35) Habits (episode 21) Scarcity (episode 14) Framing (episode 16) How to Create Remarkable Experiences with Dan Gingiss (episode 185) The Speed and Economics of Trust, an Interview with Stephen M.R. Covey (episode 148) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Know Your Customers’ “Jobs to Be Done” Customer Camp Newsletter Trigger Technique: Turn Buyer Stories into Smart Marketing Ideas Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Warren Berger. If you know me at all, you probably know what a big deal this is for me. Warren wrote my very favorite book, A More Beautiful Question. I reference it all the time on the show when I am being interviewed, when I am teaching… I even referenced it in my own book. I love questions and a huge part of that infatuation came from Warren’s book.  When the milestone of the 200th episode of The Brainy Business was on the horizon I decided to go out on a limb and asked Warren if he would be my guest for this special episode. He kindly agreed and here we are! Warren has a history as a journalist for the New York Times before writing or co-authoring ten books including A More Beautiful Question, The Book of Beautiful Questions, Beautiful Questions in the Classroom, and more. Today we are talking about questions (of course!) as well as design thinking and so much other goodness. You definitely don’t want to miss this one! Thank you so much for 200 amazing episodes together! What do you want to hear more of in the next 200?  Show Notes: [00:45] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Warren Berger.  [01:44] Warren has a history as a journalist for The New York Times before writing or co-authoring ten books including A More Beautiful Question, The Book of Beautiful Questions, Beautiful Questions in the Classroom, and more. [03:35] Warren shares who he is and his background. He is a long-time journalist. [05:54] This idea of asking questions, trying to get to the right questions, and figuring out how to ask a good question is a really important concept that has been underappreciated and not talked about enough.  [07:20] Questioning is basic and comes naturally to us…but at the same time, it is very complex. There are so many ways you can get better at questioning and understand it better.  [09:16] Warren looks for whatever has been published and he also talks to people and interviews them about how they use questions. He has interviewed a hostage negotiator, FB agent, therapists, coaches, and more.  [11:31] It is very common to see books have a chapter on questioning, but it doesn’t go that deep into it. There needs to be more. Warren advocates for Questionology departments in schools (sounds good to Melina!) [12:46] The more you learn about something, the more you realize there is to learn and that is certainly true with questioning. (Intrigued by this idea? Listen to episode 198 on the Dunning-Kruger effect to learn more about this!) [14:28] Warren has three books on questioning, A More Beautiful Question, The Book of Beautiful Questions, and Beautiful Questions in the Classroom. [15:27] There is this underappreciated tool called questioning. You know how to do it in a way, but there is so much more to it that you can learn. Questioning leads to innovations, changes, and breakthroughs.  [16:25] Everybody comes at questioning from a different angle.  [19:02] His third book on questioning was adapted for education and teachers.  [20:58] You have to model the behavior of being a curious questioner that doesn’t have all the answers. Be a person that is wondering, growing, and learning. [23:27] You have to have a balance of confidence and humility to be a questioner. [24:39] The model for great leaders is to have that ability to learn consistently and be learning in front of the people you are leading.  [25:36] The smartest people are aware of how much they don’t know. Being aware of your ignorance is an indication of how smart you are. (Dunning-Kruger effect again!) [27:28] We have to realize there is a lot we don’t know and keep learning with our teams.  [29:48] Questioning involves getting comfortable with uncertainty.  [31:17] If you use why, what if, and how questions together they tend to go in a cycle that pushes you forward.  [33:27] Questioning has to be actionable and it has to be moving forward.  [35:07] The problem is that people want to rush to practical “How” questions. It is in our nature, but it is not enough. [36:53] You could give yourself a deadline when working through the questions or just trust your gut that you will know when you have spent enough time on that stage of questioning. Melina’s tip – ask way more questions than you think you need to. [37:39] Sometimes the purpose of a question is to help you get to the next question. [38:48] The questioning muscle is a different muscle than your idea-generating muscle. When you use the questioning muscle you start to see things differently.  [41:11] Warren says design thinking is how a designer would go about approaching a problem, what can we learn from the way designers approach problems, and how we can apply that. [43:27] We can all use this mindset and process that designers use as we try to take on problems.  [44:18] If you want to create your own beautiful question and take ownership of it, consider framing it as: “How might I…?” Warren shares his beautiful question(!) [46:21] Forget the mission statement. What is your company’s mission question? [48:33] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [50:28] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thank you for 200 episodes! What do you want to hear in the next 200? Share it with me on social media (links below). Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: A More Beautiful Question, by Warren Berger The Book of Beautiful Questions, by Warren Berger Beautiful Questions in the Classroom, by Warren Berger Advertising Today, by Warren Berger Glimmer: How Design Thinking Can Transform Your World, by Warren Berger Connect with Warren:  Warren’s Website Warren on Twitter Warren on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: The Dunning-Kruger Effect (episode 198) Already Heard That One? Try These:  The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem (episode 126) Framing (episode 16) Questions or Answers (episode 4) Bikeshedding (episode 99) Priming (episode 18) Influence Is Your Superpower with Yale’s Dr. Zoe Chance (episode 189) How Businesses Can Design for Behavior Change, with Dr. Amy Bucher (episode 164) 150. Using Behavioral Science to Build Connections, an interview with Jon Levy, author of You’re Invited (episode 150) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Warren Berger TED Talk: Nurturing the Ability to Question Right Question Institute The Questionologist, Psychology Today Warren Berger Articles, Harvard Business Review Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am so happy to have my friend (and a great friend of The Brainy Business) Brian Ahearn back on the show. Brian is a wealth of information and is the Chief Influence Officer at Influence People. It has been almost 100 weeks since Brian was on the show – which is kind of crazy to think about. He was here in episode 104 talking about how to ethically influence people and his first book, Influence PEOPLE. Now he is here talking about his third book, called The Influencer, which came out a couple of months ago. Today, Brian gives tips about Cialdini’s 7 Principles of Persuasion, including some things to do as well as common pitfalls to avoid. He also talks about how he approached writing a business parable for this third book, and how that was different from a traditional business book. Lots of great insights await in this brainy episode! Show Notes: [00:41] Today I am so happy to have my friend Brian Ahearn back on the show.  [01:36] He is a Ted X presenter who has more than 30 years of experience in the insurance industry. [03:39] Brian shares his background and what he does in this world of behavioral sciences.  [05:33] Changing how people think or feel about something isn’t usually enough–you need to get them to change their behavior.  [06:46] It is not about what we think and how we feel. It is about how they think and feel.   [09:16] Don’t tell, ask. Also, say “Because…” and give a valid reason. That simple restructure is going to get you what you need far more often.  [11:46] The Principle of Liking was something he learned the importance of through Cialdini.  [12:37] It is not about us getting someone to like us, it is about us utilizing those same approaches to come to know and like them. [14:13] A lot of times, we don’t know how thirsty we are until we take that first sip. (Giving compliments to people who don’t get them often is like giving a thirsty person water, it makes a huge impact.) [16:32] Life is a lot happier when we are looking for the good in people and they are responding positively to us.  [17:41] Brian shares about his three books and how they differ from each other.  [19:09] His most recent book is called The Influencer: Secrets to Success and Happiness. [21:11] He shares that his approach for his most recent book is much like his approach to parenting.  [23:14] He shares how his first two books were different from his most recent book. [25:49] Authority is really important for speaking and training and a book helps create that authority.  [27:53] Brian summarizes Cialdini’s 7 Principles of Persuasion: liking, reciprocity, unity, authority, social proof, consistency, and scarcity. [30:14] Liking Tip: Don’t go into a situation trying to get people to like you.  Have the mindset that you want to come to like the people you are with. [32:32] Scarcity Tip: Instead of talking about all the positive reasons for doing business with you, talk about what people give up for not doing business with you.  [35:17] The value of ending with a question can have a huge impact. (reframing!) [37:06] All of life and sales is a long game. It is good to put the goodness out into the world and in some way it will come back to you.  [39:23] Brian shares the things he is excited about and what he is working on.  [42:17] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [43:45] Melina’s top takeaways: Don’t ask how you can get people to like you, instead find ways that you can like other people. When you genuinely like people and find things in common with them everything gets better.  [44:46] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Influence PEOPLE, by Brian Ahearn Persuasive Selling for Relationship Driven Insurance Agents, by Brian Ahearn The Influencer, by Brian Ahearn Influence, by Robert Cialdini Presuasion, by Robert Cialdini Connect with Brian:  Brian’s Website Brian on LinkedIn Brian on Twitter Top Recommended Next Episode: How To Ethically Influence People: Interview with Author Brian Ahearn (episode 104) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Dr. Robert Cialdini and the (Now!) 7 Principles of Persuasion (episode 157) How to Have Difficult Conversations About Race & Inequality: Interview with Kwame Christian (episode 107) Using Anchoring in Negotiations, an Interview with Kwame Christian (episode 146) Avoiding Everyday Work Disasters, an Interview with Dr. Gleb Tsipursky (episode 111) How to Avoid Disasters When Returning to the Office, with Dr. Gleb Tsipursky (episode 175) How Simple Nudges Can Save Hundreds of Millions, interview with Dectech’s Dr. Benny Cheung (episode 140) Scarcity (episode 14) Reciprocity (episode 23) Social Proof (episode 87) Focusing Illusion (episode 89) Confirmation Bias (episode 102) Precommitment (episode 120) Loss Aversion (episode 9) Framing (episode 16) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  The Power of the Word "Because" to Get People to Do Stuff Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

In today’s episode, we are talking about one of my all-time favorite concepts, the Dunning-Kruger effect.  In its simplest form, the Dunning-Kruger effect essentially says that people who are unskilled will tend to overestimate their abilities and those who are very skilled experts will underestimate theirs. Someone who undersells their skills could be more qualified than that person who seems very confident. In this episode I explain what the Dunning-Kruger effect is, how understanding it can help you be more effective, how to leverage it in business, and some top tips for navigating this natural tendency of the brain. Show Notes: [00:41] In today’s episode, we are talking about one of my all-time favorite concepts: the Dunning-Kruger effect. [03:48] To put the Dunning-Kruger effect into its simplest form, it would say essentially that people who are unskilled will tend to overestimate their abilities and those who are very skilled experts will underestimate theirs. [04:34] Think about a kid who graduates from high school and believes they know everything. [05:23] When someone graduates from high school, they are at a point that has come to be known as the “Peak of Mount Stupid.” At the peak of mount stupid, someone has lots of confidence, but it isn’t built on much competence. They have no idea how much they don’t know so they are blissfully unaware of their precarious position and how close they are to falling right off the cliff. When this kid gets to college and realizes they don’t know nearly as much as they thought they did, they fall into the “Valley of Despair.” [07:21] This is an opportunity to look at the things you don’t yet know and begin to research them. This gradual climb is called the “Slope of Enlightenment.” You slowly gain confidence as you grow your competence…though you might never get back up to the level of confidence you had way back at the peak of mount stupid. [08:14] If you take a moment now to reflect upon your own life, I am guessing you could pretty easily come up with at least half a dozen examples where the Dunning-Kruger effect reared its ugly overconfident head. [09:43] While you are an expert in one thing, you are way overconfident in something else, where you don’t have any idea of the ocean of stuff you don’t know. [11:29] How the effort heuristic relates.  [12:43] I can live in blissful unawareness of my inadequacies forever and never have it be an issue until I try the thing enough to realize that I should have been a little less confident. [13:56] Have some awareness and don’t assume you know better than everyone else. [14:54] There is a flip to this as well. (It isn’t all about mount stupid). Remember, there is a point where you become an expert and then grossly underestimate your own abilities. [16:11] You can’t do this for everything, but on the things that matter it is worth doing a little Dunning-Kruger evaluation every so often to discover if you are underestimating or overestimating your confidence and competence at this point. [17:11] Look at your own moments where you have high confidence and low competence (or high competence with not enough confidence) to determine if you are showing up in the best way possible. Also, look at others to determine where they are on that Dunning-Kruger scale. [18:37] Another place where the Dunning-Kruger effect is really critical to keep in mind is when you look at coaching or giving advice to members of your team. [20:10] Giving them too many things to change while they are feeling the stress in the “valley” is going to make the problem worse, so you need to be selective on what advice to give them. [21:23] Know that when people have low competence in something, they are likely to be overconfident in their own abilities. Those who are very competent have a tendency to underestimate their own skill or ability. [22:02] There is an interesting point when there is an increase in knowledge where you realize all of what you don’t know—that increased competence results in a drastic drop in confidence. [22:46] As you build knowledge, know that you will gradually underestimate your abilities, skills, and all the effort and training that went into what you now know and can do. Just because it is easy for you doesn’t mean it isn’t of value to someone else. Especially when someone is new, overshare information to help with where you both are on the Dunning-Kruger scale. [23:33] Don’t take your spot on the Dunning-Kruger scale as a fixed point. The context is always changing, there are new discoveries and technologies and experts every day. [26:07] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Nudge, by Richard Thaler & Cass Sunstein What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You, by Melina Palmer Outsmart Your Instincts, by Adam Hansen A More Beautiful Question, by Warren Berger Sludge, by Cass Sunstein Top Recommended Next Episode: Confirmation Bias (episode 102) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Focusing Illusion (episode 89) Priming (episode 18) Optimism Bias (episode 34) Planning Fallacy (episode 114) Expect Error (episode 39) Give Feedback (episode 40) Counterfactual Thinking (episode 68) Framing (episode 16) IKEA Effect (episode 112) Reframing Annoying Disruptions to Support Innovation, with Adam Hansen, coauthor of Outsmart Your Instincts (episode 176) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Dunning-Kruger Original Research Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Dr. Vanessa Bohns, author of You Have More Influence Than You Think: How We Underestimate Our Power of Persuasion and Why It Matters. She got her Ph.D. in Social Psychology from Columbia University and her AB in Psychology from Brown University. Her research looks at social influence and the psychology of compliance and consent.  She has been published in Psychological Science, the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, Organization Science, the Yale Law Journal, and more. She and her work have also been featured in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Atlantic, The Economist, Harvard Business Review, and NPR. She is an associate editor at the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, was previously editor of the social influence section of Social and Personality Psychology Compass, and sits on the editorial boards of the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology and Social Cognition. In this episode, we talk about influence, building relationships, Vanessa’s book, and so much more. If you have been loving all the conversations about influence this episode is a must-listen.  Show Notes: [00:43] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Dr. Vanessa Bohns, author of You Have More Influence Than You Think: How We Underestimate Our Power of Persuasion, and Why It Matters.   [03:32] Vanessa shares about herself and her background. She is an experimental social psychologist.  [05:04] She started on this journey of exploring influence in a different way than many other people have. They look at what their intuitions are to influence and how they match or don’t match reality.  [06:39] In general, we get focused on one negative thing and we are so focused on that one thing that we don’t pay attention to all of the other things that other people are paying attention to.  [07:07] Vanessa shares about the “weird shirt” study. [09:51] Good news! People are not paying attention to the things you hope they are not paying attention to and the things that you are really insecure about.  [10:17] The invisibility cloak illusion is the idea that we often feel like we walk through the world wrapped up in an invisibility cloak; you feel invisible to the world, but are not. People are noticing you and more than you tend to think. [11:44] People are actually paying attention to us as a whole, but they are not noticing the tiny embarrassing flaws that are the things we worry that people are noticing. In the end, we are having more influence than we think in a more positive way often than we think. [13:54] Influence works both ways. It is not just the person standing in front of the room, it is also the people they are speaking to that can have influence.  [15:26] The audience sitting there without saying a word can really shape the beliefs of that person at the front of the room.  [17:15] One thing that was difficult for a lot of people is doing presentations over a virtual format where you lose audience feedback.  [20:09] There is so much feedback you get from nonverbals that you take for granted. Vanessa wove in polls and chat questions to maintain engagement virtually. [21:51] She found that going around the room in Zoom and having everyone share what they think about a particular topic has really helped in her virtual presentations.  [23:18] Breakout rooms in online platforms are a great way to re-energize participants.  [26:16] We have lost so much of the interpersonal aspects of influence by moving to a virtual environment.  [28:39] People really just get the gist of what we say.  [30:07] In general, people only speak up about things that they really care about.  [31:57] The online chat feature is an outlet for people who feel less comfortable actually speaking aloud.  [33:28] So often when we do something we are so focused on how people are going to judge us for that thing instead of thinking about how that thing we said or did impact other people.  [35:05] Any time we are holding back and not asking for something, we may be missing opportunities.  [37:16] You want to be aware that every conversation and interaction is leaving an aftertaste, aftermath, or afterglow.  [38:58] We are too hard on ourselves when it comes to people judging us.  [39:43] It is so important for us to be mindful of the impacts our words and actions are having on other people.  [42:02] Shouting is born of underconfidence. We shout when we think nobody is listening.  [44:08] We don’t see the ways we are impacting people all the time.  [45:58] If you can find ways to get out of your own head and reflect on the things that you’re doing, you can be more accurate and aware of your influence.  [47:02] People like you more than you think they do.  [49:43] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [53:03] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: You Have More Influence Than You Think, by Vanessa Bohns The Power of Us, by Jay Van Bavel & Dominic Packer Reinforcements, by Heidi Grant Fierce Conversations, by Susan Scott The All or Nothing Marriage, by Eli Finkle Connect with Vanessa:  Vanessa’s Website Vanessa on Twitter Vanessa on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: Dr. Robert Cialdini and the (Now!) 7 Principles of Persuasion (episode 157) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Focusing Illusion (episode 89) Influence Is Your Superpower with Yale’s Dr. Zoe Chance (episode 189) Fundamental Attribution Error (episode 92) Hate Being on Camera? Understand Your Brain’s Biases To Change Your Mind (episode 95) How To Sell From The Stage (episode 6) Sense of Sight (episode 24) Partitioning (episode 58) The Power of Us with Dr. Dominic Packer (episode 178) Framing (episode 16) Herding (episode 19) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Dove Real Beauty Campaign Devil Wears Prada Clip Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Priscilla McKinney, CEO of Little Bird Marketing and host of the Ponderings from the Perch podcast. As you will hear in our conversation today, I love how thoughtful Priscilla and her team are about those brain associations and little play on word moments, like calling the podcast "Ponderings From the Perch" when the company is "Little Bird" Marketing, which is, of course, an extension of the benefits of word of mouth and the saying that "a little birdie" told you something. (Did you see how I extended that in the art for this episode…?) This builds upon Dan Gingiss' insights on creating remarkable experiences that people can't wait to share and his WISER framework. It is witty and engaging to have little easter eggs like this. It helps people feel like they know you and want to connect more. Priscilla and I talk about this, her background in anthropology, how that helps her bring the “human factor” back into brands, and so much more during our conversation today. You don’t want to miss it! Show Notes: [00:41] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Priscilla McKinney, CEO of Little Bird Marketing and host of Ponderings from the Perch podcast.  [03:35] Priscilla shares about herself and her background. She studied cultural anthropology and is now a CEO of a digital marketing agency. [04:27] Every company should have a clear and effective marketing plan. Forget what everyone else is doing and think about what you need to do to drive revenue.  [06:51] Priscilla found herself in marketing after naturally doing it on the side.  [09:50] Quit marketing to everybody and think of who the most ideal person is. [10:51] Observe people in their natural habitat and understand what is convenient, natural, and helpful for them. What delights and engages them?  Once you understand this, start building a plan to attract those people.   [13:43] When your best and brightest clients start talking, listen and figure out what is frustrating to them.  [15:58] Too many people are not social on social media.  [18:46] That amplification of your thought leadership is where you can’t help but see things a little differently.  [19:40] 92% of people who are engaged online want to deal with the person who is acknowledged or perceived as the thought leader in their industry.  [22:58] You have to be willing to be a little bit different than everybody else.  [25:43] Priscilla shares the background behind her business name and brand: Little Bird Marketing.  [26:52] Fidelity to your brand is something that really takes effort.  [28:27] Melina shares her favorite ad campaign of all time.  [30:25] Priscilla shares her favorite ad campaign of all time. [31:55] Fun is such an important part of engaging with other people.  [32:47] Priscilla shares examples of how she used personas in the past.  [35:26] Speaking to the real heart of the problem is the one thing in persona work that can overcome any other obstacle. (And what most brands get wrong.) [37:51] Pricing is not about the price. Oftentimes we haven’t done a good enough job making them feel like they need this and you.  [39:40] Creating personas isn’t enough–you need to use them. Keep them central to everything you do. [41:52] People are going to get to your 404 page but you don’t want it to be a bad experience. (Check ours out for inspiration.) [43:45] Priscilla is going to be MCing Greenbook’s IIEX North America in Austin this year.  [45:28] Melina is going to be speaking at IIEX North America in Austin and IIEX Europe in Amsterdam. Come join us! [48:31] Priscilla has lots of great resources to polish your marketing.  [49:45] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [52:00] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: The Experience Maker, by Dan Gingiss Choice Hacking, by Jennifer Clinehens The Life Saving Skill of Story, by Michelle Auerbach The Hype Handbook, by Michael F. Schein Marketing Mess to Brand Success, by Scott Miller Connect with Priscilla:  Little Bird Marketing Website Priscilla on LinkedIn Priscilla on Twitter Top Recommended Next Episode: How to Create Remarkable Experiences with Dan Gingiss (episode 185) Already Heard That One? Try These:  The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem  (episode 126) Surprise & Delight (episode 60) The Power of Story, an Interview with Dr. Michelle Auerbach (episode 145) Reciprocity (episode 23) Peak-End Rule (episode 97) The Power of Metaphors for Brands with Olson Zaltman’s Malcolm and Hannibal Brooks (episode 181) How to Successfully Pitch Your Business Using Behavioral Economics (episode 177) Where CX and Behavioral Science Meet, interview with Jennifer Clinehens, author of Choice Hacking (episode 141) Scarcity (episode 14) When Machine Learning Meets Neuroscience, with Ingrid Nieuwenhuis of Alpha.One (episode 170) Herding (episode 19) A Guide for You to Create a Brainy Brand (episode 43) Sludge (episode 179) Priming  (episode 18) The Truth About Pricing (episode 5) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Resources from Little Bird Marketing Greenbook’s IIEX North America A Non-Boring Behavioral Economic Lesson with Melina Palmer (Melina’s Episode on Ponderings from the Perch Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Karina Montes and Mario Drago to discuss their work with BE OEFA in Peru. These are the first guests on the show from South  America, and I am so excited to start having a more international presence in the guests coming up this year. Thank you to Carlos Hoyos, a listener of the show and LinkedIn connection for the suggestion and introduction. If you or someone you know is doing some cool work in behavioral economics in a country that isn't yet well represented in the space, reach out to me on LinkedIn or through email. I would love to see if it is a fit to feature on the show just like Karina and Mario's work with BE OEFA.  OEFA is the environmental regulatory agency in Peru, sort of like the EPA here in the United States, and BE OEFA is a (now award-winning!) team Karina started a few years ago to help incorporate behavioral economics into their work with some amazing results, as you will hear about in today's show. Show Notes: [00:42] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Karina Montes and Mario Drago working with BE OEFA in Peru. These are the first guests on the show from South America.  [01:42] OEFA is the environmental regulatory agency in Peru. BE OEFA is a team Karina started a few years ago to help include behavioral economics into their work with some amazing results. [04:23] Karina shares about herself and her background. She is an economist at OEFA.  [04:51] Mario shares about himself and his background. He is an external consultant and lawyer.  [06:03] Karina shares the story of reforms that started in 2016.  [08:26] When people weren’t doing what they “should” even though it was the law, they realized they needed to know more about the irrational part of the brain. [10:16] Mario’s relationship with behavioral economics was kind of an accident.  [11:21] Mario’s team was trying to investigate why the public policies were not working. They discovered all the rational measures and economic incentives were not working.  [14:08] Mario was the coach for Karina’s team. Each group worked with one problem, analyzed the behavior of interest groups, set objectives, and assigned the nudges.  [16:27] Sometimes you have to think in another way to promote compliance.  [17:42] They identified five projects they thought could be solved with behavioral science.  [20:18] The five projects seemed very irrational because they thought that the way to solve the problem was easy.  [21:02] BE OEFA was created to be an experimental nudge unit. [23:42] They formed a group with people that were very motivated and already knew about the topic. Hundreds of people completed the test and 30 people were selected for the first group.  [25:01] Mario shares the process he went through to design the projects.  [26:09] The first step was to determine who they wanted to nudge. Then, after identifying the true problems they began the experiments, which lasted 3-12 months.  [29:05] They found something similar in every case. It is always best to understand the problem before investigating the best nudges to use. [30:54] The best nudges are incredibly simple (in hindsight) and obviously work, but they often take a long time to figure out in practice.  [32:17] So much time has to be spent on developing and thinking about who you are talking to, what they are doing, and what mindset they are in. [34:09] In the experiment about liability acknowledgment, the problem was that there was a very low rate of companies that acknowledged liability responsibility after the analysis process began.  [36:55] In the academic research you can find, a 3-4% increase is often a beautiful outcome. Their applied research had a much more significant impact – from 1.4% compliance to over 30%!  [37:49] You don’t only have to provide the information. You have to make sure they understand it, internalize it and get part of their mental process in the right moment with the right incentive.  [39:28] Karina’s tip: having lots of good data is key.  [42:12] It is important to be sure of the problem that needs to be solved.  [43:54] If you are interested in behavioral sciences, there is a lot of space to work in the public sector. If you want to have a career in behavioral economics you can also have public agencies as a client.  [45:28] You have to have information and data. [44:48] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [46:30] There is a whole community of people who love behavioral economics from around the world waiting to network and connect with you. It is great to have like-minded people to connect with. [47:41] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Predictably Irrational, by Dan Ariely Nudge, by Richard Thaler & Cass Sunstein Sludge, by Cass Sunstein Never Go with Your Gut, by Gleb Tsipursky Finding Confidence in Conflict, by Kwame Christian Connect with BE OEFA:  BE OEFA on Twitter Karina on LinkedIn Mario on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem  (episode 126) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Incentives - The "N" In NUDGES (episode 36) Motivation and Incentives at Work with Kurt Nelson (episode 187) Secrets of Motivation and Incentives, Tim Houlihan Interview (episode 109) The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem  (episode 126) How Businesses Can Design for Behavior Change, with Dr. Amy Bucher (episode 164) NUDGES & Choice Architecture (episode 35) IKEA Effect (episode 112) Time Discounting (episode 51) Framing (episode 16) Loss Aversion (episode 9) Status Quo Bias (episode 142) Sludge (episode 179) The Littery - Interview with CEO Michael Manniche  (episode 75) Dan Ariely Interview: Discussing Shapa, the Numberless Scale (episode 101) The Truth About Pricing (episode 5) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  BE OEFA website in English BE OEFA website in Spanish Behavioral Economics Applied to Environmental Enforcement (English) La Economía Del Comportamiento Aplicada a la Fiscalización Ambiental (Spanish) Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

In today’s episode, we are digging in on the concept of functional fixedness, or the “when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail” problem. I rather enjoyed taking this analogy a bit to the extreme while sharing how this works; I hope you like it too. When there is an issue with functional fixedness, both sides are holding tightly to their own respective hammers. Like all the biases, heuristics, and concepts I share here on The Brainy Business, it is often easier to see these things in others than in ourselves, but I challenge you to look for your own hammer in each encounter. As you will learn in this episode, getting out of your own functionally fixed way – even about something simple – can have such a huge impact on your company overall. Listen in to find out how you can make small changes for a big impact.  Show Notes: [00:41] In today’s episode, we are digging in on the concept of functional fixedness, or the “when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail” problem. [02:27] When you first show up to tackle a new skill or concept, you are so excited for this new opportunity, you likely bring every mental tool you might need to help you learn. You’re a sponge, ready for whatever life throws at you. [03:17] As you develop expertise, you start to declutter that mental toolbox. [04:30] When someone cuts you off on the freeway, they’re instantly labeled a “jerk.” What about when you cut someone off? It feels completely different because of fundamental attribution error (and we do this all the time in business).  [06:09] It is important to know that you see “others” as different from you and will tend to judge them and their ideas more harshly, not giving them the benefit of the doubt that you might give to yourself and members of your team. [07:49] Isn’t it possible that the one thing someone else is arguing is one of those 275,000 things your brain filtered out? Or that you are looking at just one of many possible correct alternatives that could work? [08:15] Functional fixedness or being set in your ways is another version of confirmation bias and the focusing illusion. [09:06] Everyone else doesn’t have to be wrong in order for you to be right. [09:58] One of my favorite stories that I think is such a great example of overcoming functional fixedness, comes from Apollo 13. [12:31] Even when the stakes are high little things like this can be missed when you’re too focused on your little area that you are working on. That can cause a big problem.  [14:23] It is easy to find the right answer to the wrong question. [15:18] Reframing the conversation so the team can look at things from different angles is so important [16:51] When you are too deep into a problem or have become an expert, you have this curse of knowledge that can keep you from seeing all the other opportunities that are just outside the norm. [17:26] Having a background knowledge of associations and how things work is important, but it is also important to understand that functional fixedness is a problem and it can keep you stuck sometimes in a way that will keep you from innovations or from solving the right problems. [19:35] When you are fixated on the myopic perspective of what you do or how you do things, everything looks like a nail when all you have is that hammer. You can be missing the bigger picture, which isn’t necessarily a problem until sometimes, it is too late. [19:51] As you think about starting to apply this to your work, I don’t recommend starting with something big like your company’s mission. Have some warm-ups on less consequential projects first. [21:11] Properly wording the question is so critical for where you end up. [23:47] In general, when there is an issue with functional fixedness, both sides are holding onto their own respective hammers. Like all the biases, heuristics, and concepts I share here on The Brainy Business, it is easier to see these things in others than in ourselves, but I challenge you to look for your own hammer in each encounter. What are you fixated on that is keeping you closed off to the other person’s perspective? [24:51] “I don’t care what it was designed to do, I want to know what it can do”  - Gene Kranz, flight director for Apollo 13 [24:58] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Alchemy, by Rory Sutherland Nudge, by Richard Thaler & Cass Sunstein What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You, by Melina Palmer Outsmart Your Instincts, by Adam Hansen A More Beautiful Question, by Warren Berger Top Recommended Next Episode: The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem  (episode 126) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Personal Biases (episode 45) Biases Toward Others – Including Groups (episode 46) Confirmation Bias (episode 102) Fundamental Attribution Error (episode 92) Focusing Illusion (episode 89) Priming (episode 18) Framing (episode 16) 3 Steps to Better Decision Making, An Interview with Matthew Confer (episode 158) Reframing Annoying Disruptions to Support Innovation, with Adam Hansen, coauthor of Outsmart Your Instincts (episode 176) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Marketing Myopia Apollo 13 Movie Clip Metric mishap caused loss of NASA orbiter 3 Steps To Better Decision Making Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia