Mayra Navarro is an organizer of WNB.rb and Ruby Perú. Mayra shares how the Ruby community helped her get to RubyConf, going from project manager to developer, and the different ways people learn and communicate. This is the final interview recorded at RubyConf 2023 in San Diego. -- Mayra's Github Peruvian Digital Platform Codeable bootcamp Groups Ruby Perú WNB.rb Atlanta Ruby People Cody Norman Stefanni Brasil of hexdevs Dave Kimura of Drifting Ruby Conferences RubyConf RailsConf -- Transcript You can help correct transcripts on GitHub. [00:00:00] Jeremy: I hope you've been enjoying the conversations from RubyConf. Before we get started. I just want to say thank you to everyone. I met at the conference, all the guests who were so generous with their time. And to Irene from RubyConf for arranging a space and helping me connect with guests. [00:00:16] This final interview is with Mayra Navarro. She's an organizer of the Ruby community in Lima, Peru and a member of the women and non-binary Ruby online community. She's going to tell us how the community pulled together. Both friends of hers and strangers she had never met. To get her to RubyConf this year, we start the story in April where she's just finished attending the Ruby on rails conference, RailsConf in Atlanta. Getting to RubyConf [00:00:44] Mayra: So the thing is, in the last RailsConf, the last day that I was in the US, um, the day that I was returning to Peru, I got fired. (laughs) Yes. So I was with all the stress. [00:01:01] All the luggages that I had to pick or maybe overweight or something like that. And then I received that [00:01:08] Jeremy: Oh my gosh. [00:01:09] Mayra: And I, oh my gosh, what I can do? [00:01:13] Jeremy: That's terrible. [00:01:15] Mayra: It was awful. Since that, I think it was May 1st or something like that. And I was looking for job like everybody else who were fired all these times It was a difficult time for me. my plan was just before September I get a job so I have enough money and not using my, my savings for, for going to the RailsConf. Sorry, the RubyConf. but, uh, eventually at the end of September, October, I didn't get anything. [00:01:44] I'm Christian. So I, well, God doesn't want me to come here. [00:01:50] it there must be a reason, but there was something inside me that. I just to have to do something else. and I thank to my mom because she's someone that is always fighting for what she wants. [00:02:02] So I say, okay, I went to sleep that day that I say, okay, maybe I don't want to go. So next day I have the idea. Maybe you didn't use your last card. There is something else. That is something that I have from my mom. I can feel that. I say, what if you ask for money? Well, like a fundraising, I learned about that word later, and I say what, what else could you lose you don't have anything to lose right now. [00:02:30] So I say, okay, I'm going to write something. I asked Cody Norman, that is someone that I really appreciate right now. I asked him about suggestions, if that's a good idea or no, maybe not. He said, yes, you can do it. Uh, and I asked him if he could help me with the speech because I tried to write something and also I'm not good at writing things on Twitter and especially asking for money because I had to be open myself and be vulnerable to do that. [00:03:02] And it was like, uh, the last break for myself [00:03:05] a... I sent the speech to Cody, he helped me to update some things that I have to just improve. And I did it. I, also, I didn't know how to open a GoFundMe campaign because that's only for the US and Mexico. I think it doesn't exist in Peru. [00:03:23] So he said, Oh, there is another page that you can go. [00:03:27] I did it. So I just published that. I didn't open that until three, four hours later, because I was like, no, I don't want to see. And then I, I open it and I started to contact with the people who. [00:03:44] Well, who knows me because I like to be connected with a lot of people. I'm part of the FL RB even being in Peru, I am part of the FL RB. I go attend to the Atlanta Ruby Group. I go, I, I know a lot of people because of the conference. I try to help to the woman and non binary community also. I am organizer of the Ruby Peru, but I didn't want to ask them money for them, but I have some close friends from the conference that I, that I go for all. [00:04:13] All these two years. So they helped me to share that. And in two days, I got the money. [00:04:20] It was like a, I can't believe it. It is what, and I'm not good open myself for things like that. I love helping people, but it's difficult when I, you have to help yourself. So. All these people who I could see their names because it's, it's transferred to PayPal. [00:04:39] So I could see their name is like, uh, I really appreciate the thing that they don't know me. Some people, they don't know me, but, but I know them. I know who you are, if you're listening to this and I thank you appreciate for doing that. I also had the opportunity because I need to talk about this. I got a ticket from HexDev, uh, from Stephanie. [00:05:01] Jeremy: Oh... Hexdevs. Yeah. [00:05:02] Mayra: Yes. And, also I applied for the volunteer positions, just in case But I got the volunteer position. So what I did is, besides all my expense, I mean, that trip and also the hotel, expenses, I don't know, does it work? I, I said, I'm going to give this ticket that I have left to one of the women in the wnb community. [00:05:25] So I did that and say, I have a ticket and also I can share the room. I don't want to say her name because She's trying not to be too connected to social media, but she, she accepted sharing the room with me. [00:05:40] Jeremy: Yeah. [00:05:43] Mayra: So she's already here with me and I feel so happy because People not only helping me, they helping me to help and it feel like, wow. [00:05:53] Yeah. And that is, that is my story. And I still, well, I accepted to come to talk about this today because I received a job offer in the morning that I accepted. [00:06:06] So I wanted to. Send a happy ending for all my story about this. Yeah. And especially because I know that in the next conference I'll be with my own money, I could say, expenses. Asking for help [00:06:20] Jeremy: So was this all this year, the RailsConf? That was this year where you, you went to the conference, you enjoyed the talks and you were employed. And so it was the day that it was over that you, you found out that you got laid off. Wow. it's this, you have this high, right, you've met all your friends and, you know, you're learning all this stuff and you're really excited. [00:06:42] And then you get this notice and it's like, what, what happened? [00:06:47] Mayra: Yeah. That is what's happening. [00:06:50] Jeremy: then you, you kind of, like you said, you opened yourself up but yeah, it takes courage to say like, Hey, I need, you know, I need some help. [00:06:57] Mayra: Yeah, it's, this is something that I learned about this is always asking for help. This is something that I have been I bring into my life is always asking for help. I know as a woman, uh, as a woman, I have the thing that Try to be strong sometimes. I can do it by myself. I don't need help. [00:07:16] I don't need help, but sometimes you need, as human, you can open yourself. It's not something related to [00:07:23] gender it's more like humanity. That's how I feel right now. That is the feeling that I have and that is what is going to keep with me. For the rest of my life, I know. (laughs) [00:07:33] Jeremy: Yeah. Cause I, I think when, when people don't know, they, they might assume because you're so involved, right. With your, your local community and then the community internationally where people just assume that, Hey, Mayra is doing great. Right? She's, she's got no problems, no issues, and, there's just no way for people to know unless, you know, you, you share, and then that way people can help you, [00:07:58] Mayra: Yes. [00:07:59] Jeremy: That's a great story. I'm, I'm, I'm glad that, like, getting laid off is never good, right? That's never fun. But at least... Uh, things positive came out of it in terms of people coming out to support you, but also like you said, being able to support another, you know, another member of our community, [00:08:19] Mayra: And I would do it, and I would do it again. [00:08:21] I know that. Attending conferences [00:08:23] Jeremy: You know, now that you've gotten to come out, how, how has the, the conference been for you? Like, [00:08:29] Mayra: It was really good. I feel less insecure than the last time that I was here. (laughs) Actually, my first RubyConf was RubyConf Mini in Rhode Island. So this is like a, the Ruby real not the real one. It's just my more it's different. [00:08:48] Mayra: But, uh, the same time is. It's closer. That's how I feel it. I mean, this is my fifth conference. My first one was in Colombia. RubyConf Colombia. And I got a ticket as a scholarship. but until now I can say that it's like a, the feeling of the Ruby community, not only Ruby on Rails. Ruby community is like a It's really positive. It has changed my life so much since the first time that I joined to community that it's, I'm so happy to be developer instead of what, you know, everybody switched jobs. [00:09:20] I did too so it's like, uh, I won't regret. From project manager to developer [00:09:24] Jeremy: Hmm. Tell, tell me a little bit about that. How did you get interested in Ruby or, or have been involved with the community? [00:09:31] Mayra: I wasn't, I it was because money. Because it is. [00:09:34] Jeremy: That's a good reason. That's a good reason. [00:09:36] Mayra: Yeah. The thing is, I am graduated, uh, of the university. Uh, in Peru, but I was project manager before, well, I've switched a lot of careers because I was looking what I wanted to do and eventually I was project manager also. but I hated me in that position wasn't really good and it wasn't the company. [00:09:59] I knew it was me. I wasn't satisfied with my job and also I didn't like that, uh, working from nine to six every day in an office or something like that. It wasn't for me. So I remember that someone, one friend on Facebook shared something like a bootcamp that was about to start in Peru, that they were teaching Ruby on Rails. [00:10:21] I didn't know what was Ruby on Rails at the time. And then, and also React and JavaScript because, and you have to pay only if you get your first job. [00:10:32] Jeremy: Oh, this is like a bootcamp. [00:10:34] Mayra: Yeah, it's bootcamp, the first one that I met, I know, but that time there was someone called Laboratoria, but it's only related to JavaScript, but this one's a little bit more complete. So I apply, I didn't know that I could make it. I did it and it was an intensive bootcamp, six months from nine to six, but also I remember I didn't leave. [00:10:59] The place until 11 o'clock PM, because we were all 19 people there. So we really wanted to change our future. When everything ends, there was a moment when I, I could feel that Ruby also, especially Ruby on Rails, it was like, uh, something that I really like, uh, the syntax. Things like that. And also our teachers used to say, I can see who could be backend, who's going to be frontend. [00:11:31] I consider myself full stack, but she, she used to say that. I remember that. [00:11:36] Jeremy: So, which one were you? [00:11:38] Mayra: I was the Ruby side. The backend. [00:11:43] Mayra: Then I got an internship in the same companies who that was promoting the, the bootcamp. After three months, the, the, the internship ended because it was part of the contract but I wanted really to work in a place that they had Ruby on Rails. [00:12:05] So that's what I got. It took me more time than the rest of my friends, it's maybe it was like. four of us got a job in Ruby on Rails, uh, and I got mine. I remember my first job, full time job for Ruby on Rails was for the government of Peru. Actually, they use, they use Ruby on Rails for, CMS that they manage, that is called gov.pe. So I started working there. So it was a nice experience and I love, and I learned a lot about that experience also. So that is my story how it started. [00:12:44] Jeremy: Yeah. So you had talked about your friend and your friend referred you to the bootcamp, had you ever done any programming or anything related? [00:12:54] Mayra: When I was project manager, I had the opportunity to, to manage developers. I have developers in charge. So, but I had the kind of person that even I was. Your product manager, I try to help you to solve some things, like something that I say is a pseudocode. Instead of coding, I tried to give you the pseudocode that the things that you could do. So with that, maybe I can help. Well, my, my goal wanted to help you to unlock if you, you, you got stuck in something. [00:13:30] So with that, I just have a little bit of knowledge of what to do, but I. I felt that I hadn't the tools or I hadn't the skill to do that. That's why I decided to, to study in a bootcamp because they can teach me about the, that kind of tools because I couldn't study by myself. I couldn't. I can understand how the things goes right now, but at that time I, I was, I was lost. [00:13:56] Jeremy: But that's like, the, the skill that you already had as a project manager, being able to write the pseudocode and, and talk to your developers about the type of problem they're, they're trying to solve. That, that's a really important skill already. So I think, like, going into the bootcamp, nothing was totally new. [00:14:15] Right? I, I think that's really great that, that you got to see that beforehand and, and hopefully get a sense for like, that you might. Enjoy this, this sort of thing too, right? [00:14:25] Mayra: I love solving puzzles, so that was puzzle for me. I started with Code Wars. I know everybody started with that, but it's like a resolving puzzles. I need something there. And one of the things I really love I love helping people. I discovered that when I was helpdesk before. eventually all this time, even this time without job, I realized I can bring that. [00:14:47] Oh, I being more. aware about that I can help people just coding. So that's, that's what I've been doing all these months because I try to understand about gems or learning things more, but my focus is always going to be helping people. [00:15:03] Jeremy: I, I think that's really great that that's something that really appeals to you because that's something everybody needs. [00:15:12] Mayra: You know, the word that comes to my mind all the time that I say this is server. If you think about the word server, it's what I do. It receives something and gives you something. It's all the time. It's, you know, I know it's a machine or something like that, but if you think about the word, you are receiving something and giving something. [00:15:36] In all the time you are waiting for a, for a request to give something. So that is the word that it's, is for me, it's kind of helping people. [00:15:45] Jeremy: Hmm. we all serve one another in, in, in one way or another. Yeah. the boot camp, you said it was, uh, six months, and... You were, you were staying till 11 at night. So what, what was that experience like? How different people communicate and learn [00:16:02] Mayra: it's a nightmare, don't do it. (laughs) No, it was fun. that bootcamp changed my life. Before that bootcamp, I would say, I'm not going to say I was lack of some of the skills. The thing is, I didn't know how to, how to communicate. And one of the things that I learned besides that you need English or things like that, it's more about how to communicate with people because, there are multiple ways. [00:16:28] You can't talk in a way, for example, there's something that I'm always going to remember about it is you would prefer. WhatsApp, for example, and I would prefer Slack, or maybe voice, voice records instead of writing, or maybe an email. So, there must be a point between you and me. that might help us to communicate in a good way. [00:16:53] I, me, myself, especially, don't have to be forced people to do it in my way. It's a way of two, for two, you and me, and the best way, and try to do the same for the rest of the team, for example, or the rest of the people. Maybe they don't prefer this in this way, maybe another way. I have to be open to that. [00:17:12] Before the bootcamp I didn't know anything about it, but, and I tried to do it in my way. And then, right, thinking about it, it was a little bit selfish, but I need to learn. I need to be aware about [00:17:25] Jeremy: You're, you're referring to the way people. Communicate, or the ways people learn, or... [00:17:31] Mayra: Communicate actually. If we talk about the people, how the people learn. I am the example of, I am bad at listening book, podcasts. [00:17:41] Jeremy: Uh... Oh (laughs)... [00:17:42] Mayra: I'm sorry, I, I have ADHD. So it's hard for me to follow videos and podcasts because I have to. Pause, uh, Rewind, and Play again. And this is something when I miss so many ideas. So I prefer reading blogs or maybe transcriptions because it helps me just do reading. [00:18:04] And then return and continue reading when I can't understand something. it was difficult for me just to understand also that people prefer videos. Yes, it's not only my way to learn, it's their way to learn. And also we need to be open to that. Even when I used to, I mentor a couple of... people So, I had to be open to that also. [00:18:29] I am the kind of person you can write me at 2 a. m. and if I am awake, I'm going to answer you because maybe you are desperate for an answer at the time, but I can understand there are no people who are not. Who doesn't like, don't like that, so I try to be open to that or maybe improve our communications or maybe give some rules and not to think that everything is personal, right? [00:18:56] It's just, I hope the best of you. And I try that you get the best of me. (laughs) [00:19:03] Jeremy: Yeah, it's understanding their expectations, what they feel comfortable with, so that you know, It's okay if I send Mayra a message at 2 AM, but if I send someone else a message at 2 AM, it, it, maybe their phone dings and, you know, now they're distracted and, yeah, so, that, that makes sense. [00:19:26] Mayra: Yeah. If you, for example, I, I, I'm going to ask you because I learned that, can I send you a message at that time? But I, even I have to think about the time zone. [00:19:36] Jeremy: Yeah, oh, that's true, that's true. [00:19:38] Mayra: For example, because now I, I would have think about just my friends from Peru, but now I have friends all over the world because of the Woman Non-binary community. [00:19:49] So I have to think about things like that when I write. So what, all the things that has been useful for me is, for example, is like when you schedule a message that has been useful for me when I have to ask or sending messages. [00:20:03] Jeremy: It's interesting that you mentioned how with learning you prefer blogs and, and books and things like that because this may be a generalization, but maybe with, newer developers or, or younger people, a lot of them really like the video form Yesterday I was, interviewing, David Copeland, who he, he wrote a book about, sustainable web development with Ruby on Rails, and, yeah, we were talking a little bit about, it's like, so many people want video, is there a, is there still a place for me with my, you know, my, my book? [00:20:39] And stuff like that, and I think it's important to remember that there's people like yourself, and, um, I, I'm partly the same way, like, I like to be able to have the text so that I can read it at my own pace and copy and paste stuff and stuff like that. But you're right that everybody learns differently, so it, it makes sense for there to be the videos, for there to be, podcasts and blog posts. [00:21:05] There's different people who learn different ways [00:21:07] Mayra: And also, some people, including me, needs to pay for something if you want to learn something, because sometimes when it is free, you won't have the value that [00:21:22] Mayra: it has. [00:21:23] Jeremy: I totally understand that, yeah. Accessibility for videos and podcasts [00:21:26] Mayra: And there is something I would like to mention after you talk about this is I open to videos and podcasts, I can't take my time because I have now a lot of friends who, who create this type kind of content, but I like to remember that there are people with other difficult things. [00:21:45] No, it's, it's related to accessibility because when you have deaf people, they need. Transcriptions, they need closed captions. So maybe you are in a place with a lot of noise and it can help you, even if the video has closed captions, so people can read it. So it is something like, it's not me. It's more to be more open to people who are really has a disability. [00:22:12] That's a word that was like, so yeah. Or maybe they, their main language is not English and a lot of the content or the majority of the content about coding is in English. So when you have the transcriptions or you have the blog, you can translate it. And it's easy for that is access to them. [00:22:31] Jeremy: Yeah, that's definitely true. And I think even past people who aren't native speakers or have a disability, if you aren't in either of those categories, there's still a lot of people who they want to have a transcript or outside. Ruby or programming, people who watch movies and TV shows, a lot of them turn on the subtitles and they're native English speakers. [00:22:55] The dialogue is in English. They still want to see the subtitles. [00:22:59] Yeah, I think it's becoming very common. So, to your point when you have video having a way for people to still get the information another way, I think is helpful for everyone. Yeah. [00:23:15] Mayra: And it isn't too difficult nowadays because now you have AI or maybe, programs that can get you the, at least the closest words. [00:23:24] Jeremy: It gets you maybe 90 percent of the way there, so it definitely saves time, but I will say it is still work. [00:23:33] Mayra: Yes. Yes. It still work. Actually, it's because it could be a couple of words that need that maybe the, the program needs to improve. You can improve how the program, uh, translated, but it is something behind the meaning that you still can keep. [00:23:49] Jeremy: It being there and not perfect is kind of better than having nothing, I guess, yeah. What's next [00:23:55] Jeremy: Now that you've spent time at RubyConf, like, what are, like what are your plans next? [00:24:02] Mayra: There is a story behind all this, but I'm going to, the TLDR [00:24:06] Jeremy: Okay. [00:24:08] Mayra: Could be easy because I have a plenty of time without working to make a lot of thoughts in my mind. So it's just like, uh, I would like to explore more about Ruby, Ruby without Rails, something like that. So one of the things that I would like to do after this is just. [00:24:27] I would like to investigate more about the use of Ruby out of what is what application. It is something I was talking like a couple of hours ago, because there I found a blog about how is, how are the conference. The Ruby conference in Japan. So it was really interesting. It was, an article that is really old, but it got my attention because I never thought about it because I came from a boot camp and it was like a. [00:24:59] There is something else. So I could see a couple of talks about talking about, for example, Rack. [00:25:06] Mayra: So I will like how, oh, for example, we have another talk about how to create desktop applications with Ruby. So that is something that I would like to investigate. I would like to try also with the Ruby Peru community. [00:25:20] We decided to choose to investigate more about it and prepare talks about it in Spanish, because that is the mission. Our vision of our community is to create content in Spanish. [00:25:34] And also I was planning to give a lightning talk, but I wasn't ready yet to do it because I was nervous about, because I applied for jobs or things like that, I hadn't the time to prepare that, but actually I would like. I dunno if you heard about Dave Kimura and Drifting Ruby? [00:25:52] Jeremy: Uh, yes. Yes. They, they do the videos, right. [00:25:54] Mayra: He has a, blog on how to implement some kind of, uh, when your test test fails, you saw the light can change to red or green based on that The test that you are running. So it was really interesting. It isn't related to rails, but it, it is based on ruby so it's like, wow, I want to learn how to do that. Woman and non-binary community (WNB-rb.dev) [00:26:17] Jeremy: Anything else you want to mention or think we should have talked about? [00:26:22] Mayra: Yeah, because I am a member of the Women and Non-binary community. So if you are a woman or a non-binary person, you're invited to our community, we are open to, to you and we have meetups monthly. Uh, we have book clubs and we are always open to new ideas to share, to help you to do. that's it, I think. Yes. [00:26:47] Jeremy: And where can they find you if they're interested in that? [00:26:51] Mayra: Uh, we have a webpage, [00:26:53] wnb-rb.dev That is dev in English, I think. [00:27:00] Yes. And there you can find us. And also there's a form, where you can give us your, your info. It won't be shared only. No, it won't be shared only for the organizers. And that's all. We keep your privacy there. [00:27:17] Jeremy: Very cool. So [00:27:19] wnb-rb.dev [00:27:23] Mayra: yes, it is. [00:27:26] Jeremy: Well, Myra thank you so much for spending time to talk with me today. [00:27:30] Mayra: Thank you and sorry for my English. Ha ha ha ha [00:27:34] Jeremy: Your English is good, your English is much better than my Spanish. [00:27:38] Mayra: Okay.

Mike Perham is the creator of Sidekiq, a background job processor for Ruby. He's also the creator of Faktory a similar product for multiple language environments. We talk about the RubyConf keynote and Ruby's limitations, supporting products as a solo developer, and some ideas for funding open source like a public utility. Recorded at RubyConf 2023 in San Diego. -- A few topics covered: Sidekiq (Ruby) vs Faktory (Polyglot) Why background job solutions are so common in Ruby Global Interpreter Lock (GIL) Ractors (Actor concurrency) Downsides of Multiprocess applications When to use other languages Getting people to pay for Sidekiq Keeping a solo business Being selective about customers Ways to keep support needs low Open source as a public utility Mike Mike's blog mastodon Sidekiq faktory From Employment to Independence Ruby Ractor The Practical Effects of the GVL on Scaling in Ruby Transcript You can help correct transcripts on GitHub. Introduction [00:00:00] Jeremy: I'm here at RubyConf San Diego with Mike Perham. He's the creator of Sidekiq and Faktory. [00:00:07] Mike: Thank you, Jeremy, for having me here. It's a pleasure. Sidekiq [00:00:11] Jeremy: So for people who aren't familiar with, I guess we'll start with Sidekiq because I think that's what you're most known for. If people don't know what it is, maybe you can give like a small little explanation. [00:00:22] Mike: Ruby apps generally have two major pieces of infrastructure powering them. You've got your app server, which serves your webpages and the browser. And then you generally have something off on the side that... It processes, you know, data for a million different reasons, and that's generally called a background job framework, and that's what Sidekiq is. [00:00:41] It, Rails is usually the thing that, that handles your web stuff, and then Sidekiq is the Sidekiq to Rails, so to speak. [00:00:50] Jeremy: And so this would fit the same role as, I think in Python, there's celery. and then in the Ruby world, I guess there is, uh, Resque is another kind of job. [00:01:02] Mike: Yeah, background job frameworks are quite prolific in Ruby. the Ruby community's kind of settled on that as the, the standard pattern for application development. So yeah, we've got, a half a dozen to a dozen different, different examples throughout history, but the major ones today are, Sidekiq, Resque, DelayedJob, GoodJob, and, and, and others down the line, yeah. Why background jobs are so common in Ruby [00:01:25] Jeremy: I think working in other languages, you mentioned how in Ruby, there's this very clear, preference to use these job scheduling systems, these job queuing systems, and I'm not. I'm not sure if that's as true in, say, if somebody's working in Java, or C sharp, or whatnot. And I wonder if there's something specific about Ruby that makes people kind of gravitate towards this as the default thing they would use. [00:01:52] Mike: That's a good question. What makes Ruby... The one that so needs a background job system. I think Ruby, has historically been very single threaded. And so, every Ruby process can only do so much work. And so Ruby oftentimes does, uh, spin up a lot of different processes, and so having processes that are more focused on one thing is, is, is more standard. [00:02:24] So you'll have your application server processes, which focus on just serving HTTP responses. And then you have some other sort of focused process and that just became background job processes. but yeah, I haven't really thought of it all that much. But, uh, you know, something like Java, for instance, heavily multi threaded. [00:02:45] And so, and extremely heavyweight in terms of memory and startup time. So it's much more frequent in Java that you just start up one process and that's it. Right, you just do everything in that one process. And so you may have dozens and dozens of threads, both serving HTTP and doing work on the side too. Um, whereas in Ruby that just kind of naturally, there was a natural split there. Global Interpreter Lock [00:03:10] Jeremy: So that's actually a really good insight, because... in the keynote at RubyConf, Mats, the creator of Ruby, you know, he mentioned the, how the fact that there is this global, interpreter lock, [00:03:23] or, or global VM lock in Ruby, and so you can't, really do multiple things in parallel and make use of all the different cores. And so it makes a lot of sense why you would say like, okay, I need to spin up separate processes so that I can actually take advantage of, of my, system. [00:03:43] Mike: Right. Yeah. And the, um, the GVL. is the acronym we use in the Ruby community, or GIL. Uh, that global lock really kind of is a forcing function for much of the application architecture in Ruby. Ruby, uh, applications because it does limit how much processing a single Ruby process can do. So, uh, even though Sidekiq is heavily multi threaded, you can only have so many threads executing. [00:04:14] Because they all have to share one core because of that global lock. So unfortunately, that's, that's been, um, one of the limiter, limiting factors to Sidekiq scalability is that, that lock and boy, I would pay a lot of money to just have that lock go away, but. You know, Python is going through a very long term experiment about trying to remove that lock and I'm very curious to see how well that goes because I would love to see Ruby do the same and we'll see what happens in the future, but, it's always frustrating when I come to another RubyConf and I hear another Matt's keynote where he's asked about the GIL and he continues to say, well, the GIL is going to be around, as long as I can tell. [00:04:57] so it's a little bit frustrating, but. It's, it's just what you have to deal with. Ractors [00:05:02] Jeremy: I'm not too familiar with them, but they, they did mention during the keynote I think there Ractors or something like that. There, there, there's some way of being able to get around the GIL but there are these constraints on them. And in the context of Sidekiq and, and maybe Ruby in general, how do you feel about those options or those solutions? [00:05:22] Mike: Yeah, so, I think it was Ruby 3. 2 that introduced this concept of what they call a Ractor, which is like a thread, except it does not have the global lock. It can run independent to the global lock. The problem is, is because it doesn't use the global lock, it has pretty severe constraints on what it can do. [00:05:47] And the, and more specifically, the data it can access. So, Ruby apps and Rails apps throughout history have traditionally accessed a lot of global data, a lot of class level data, and accessed all this data in a, in a read only fashion. so there's no race conditions because no one's changing any of it, but it's still, lots of threads all accessing the same variables. [00:06:19] Well, Ractors can't do that at all. The only data Ractors can access is data that they own. And so that is completely foreign to Ruby application, traditional Ruby applications. So essentially, Ractors aren't compatible with the vast majority of existing Ruby code. So I, I, I toyed with the idea of prototyping Sidekiq and Ractors, and within about a minute or two, I just ran into these, these, uh... [00:06:51] These very severe constraints, and so that's why you don't see a lot of people using Ractors, even still, even though they've been out for a year or two now, you just don't see a lot of people using them, because they're, they're really limited, limited in what they can do. But, on the other hand, they're unlimited in how well they can scale. [00:07:12] So, we'll see, we'll see. Hopefully in the future, they'll make a lot of improvements and, uh, maybe they'll become more usable over time. Downsides of multiprocess (Memory usage) [00:07:19] Jeremy: And with the existence of a job queue or job scheduler like Sidekiq, you're able to create additional processes to get around that global lock, I suppose. What are the... downsides of doing so versus another language like we mentioned Java earlier, which is capable of having true parallelism in the same process. [00:07:47] Mike: Yeah, so you can start up multiple Ruby processes to process things truly in parallel. The issue is that you do get some duplication in terms of memory. So your Ruby app maybe take a gigabyte per process. And, you can do copy on write forking. You can fork and get some memory sharing with copy on write semantics on Unix operating systems. [00:08:21] But you may only get, let's say, 30 percent memory savings. So, there's still a significant memory overhead to forking, you know, let's say, eight processes versus having eight threads. You know, you, you, you may have, uh, eight threads can operate in a gigabyte process, but if you want to have eight processes, that may take, let's say, four gigabytes of RAM. [00:08:48] So you, you still, it's not going to cost you eight gigabytes of RAM, you know, it's not like just one times eight, but, there's still a overhead of having those separate processes. [00:08:58] Jeremy: would you say it's more of a cost restriction, like it costs you more to run these applications, or are there actual problems that you can't solve because of this restriction. [00:09:13] Mike: Help me understand, what do you mean by restriction? Do you mean just the GVL in general, or the fact that forking processes still costs memory? [00:09:22] Jeremy: I think, well, it would be both, right? So you're, you have two restrictions right now. You have the, the GVL, which means you can't have parallelism within the same process. And then your other option is to spin up a bunch of processes, which you have said is the downside there is that you're using a lot more RAM. [00:09:43] I suppose my question is that Does that actually stop you from doing anything? Like, if you throw more money at the problem, you go like, we're going to have more instances, I'll pay for the RAM, it's fine, can that basically get you out of these situations or are these limitations actually stopping you from, from doing things you could do in other languages? [00:10:04] Mike: Well, you certainly have to manage the multiple processes, right? So you've gotta, you know, if one child process crashes, you've gotta have a parent or supervisor process watching all that and monitoring and restarting the process. I don't think it restricts you. Necessarily, it just, it adds complexity to your deployment. [00:10:24] and, and it's just a question of efficiency, right? Instead of being able to deploy on a, on a one gigabyte droplet, I've got to deploy to a four gigabyte droplet, right? Because I just, I need the RAM to run the eight processes. So it, it, it's more of just a purely a function of how much money am I going to have to throw at this problem. [00:10:45] And what's it going to cost me in operational costs to operate this application in production? When to use other languages? [00:10:53] Jeremy: So during the. Keynote, uh, Matz had mentioned that Rails, is really suitable as this one person framework, like you can have a very small team or maybe even yourself and, and build this product. And so I guess from... Your perspective, once you cross a certain threshold, is like, what Ruby and what Sidekiq provides not enough, and that's why you need to start looking into other languages? [00:11:24] Or like, where's the, turning point, or the, if you [00:11:29] Mike: Right, right. The, it's all about the problem you're trying to solve, right? At the end of the day, uh, the, the question is just what are we trying to solve and how are we trying to solve it? So at a higher level, you got to think about the architecture. if the problem you're trying to solve, if the service you're trying to build, if the app you're trying to operate. [00:11:51] If that doesn't really fall into the traditional Ruby application architecture, then you, you might look at it in another language or another ecosystem. something like Go, for instance, can compile down to a single binary, which makes deployment really easy. It makes shipping up a product. on to a user's machine, much simpler than deploying a Ruby application onto a user's desktop machine, for instance, right? [00:12:22] Um, Ruby does have this, this problem of how do you package everything together and deploy it somewhere? Whereas Go, when you can just compile to a single binary, now you've just got a single thing. And it's just... Drop it on the file system and execute it. It's easy. So, um, different, different ecosystems have different application architectures, which empower different ways of solving the same problems. [00:12:48] But, you know, Rails as a, as a one man framework, or sorry, one person framework, It, it, I don't, I don't necessarily, that's a, that's sort of a catchy marketing slogan, but I just think of Rails as the most productive framework you can use. So you, as a single person, you can maximize what you ship and the, the, the value that you can create because Rails is so productive. [00:13:13] Jeremy: So it, seems like it's maybe the, the domain or the type of application you're making. Like you mentioned the command line application, because you want to be able to deliver it to your user easily. Just give them a binary, something like Go or perhaps Rust makes a lot more sense. and then I could see people saying that if you're doing something with machine learning, like the community behind Python, it's, they're just, they're all there. [00:13:41] So Room for more domains in Ruby [00:13:41] Mike: That was exactly the example I was going to use also. Yeah, if you're doing something with data or AI, Python is going to be a more, a more traditional, natural choice. that doesn't mean Ruby can't do it. That doesn't mean, you wouldn't be able to solve the problem with Ruby. And, and there's, that just also means that there's more space for someone who wants to come in and make an impact in the Ruby community. [00:14:03] Find a problem that Ruby's not really well suited to solving right now and build the tooling out there to, to try and solve it. You know, I, I saw a talk, from the fellow who makes the Glimmer gem, which is a native UI toolkit. Uh, a gem for building native UIs in Ruby, which Ruby traditionally can't do, but he's, he's done an amazing job at sort of surfacing APIs to build these, um, these native, uh, native applications, which I think is great. [00:14:32] It's awesome. It's, it's so invigorating to see Ruby in a new space like that. Um, I talked to someone else who's doing the Polars gem, which is focused on data processing. So it kind of takes, um, Python and Pandas and brings that to Ruby, which is, is awesome because if you're a Ruby developer, now you've got all these additional tools which can allow you to solve new sets of problems out there. [00:14:57] So that's, that's kind of what's exciting in the Ruby community right now is just bring it into new spaces. Faktory [00:15:03] Jeremy: In addition to Sidekiq, you have, uh, another product called Faktory, I believe. And so does that serve a, a similar purpose? Is that another job scheduling, job queueing system? [00:15:16] Mike: It is, yes. And it's, it's, it's similar in a way to Sidekiq. It looks similar. It's got similar concepts at the core of it. At the end of the day, Sidekiq is limited to Ruby. Because Sidekiq executes in a Ruby VM, it executes the jobs, and the jobs are, have to be written in Ruby because you're running in the Ruby VM. [00:15:38] Faktory was my attempt to bring, Sidekiq functionality to every other language. I wanted, I wanted Sidekiq for JavaScript. I wanted Sidekiq for Go. I wanted Sidekiq for Python because A, a lot of these other languages also could use a system, a background job system. And the problem though is that. [00:16:04] As a single man, I can't port Sidekiq to every other language. I don't know all the languages, right? So, Faktory kind of changes the architecture and, um, allows you to execute jobs in any language. it, it replaces Redis and provides a server where you just fetch jobs, and you can use it from it. [00:16:26] You can use that protocol from any language to, to build your own worker processes that execute jobs in whatever language you want. [00:16:35] Jeremy: When you say it replaces Redis, so it doesn't use Redis, um, internally, it has its own. [00:16:41] Mike: It does use Redis under the covers. Yeah, it starts Redis as a child process and, connects to it over a Unix socket. And so it's really stable. It's really fast. from the outside, the, the worker processes, they just talk to Faktory. They don't know anything about Redis at all. [00:16:59] Jeremy: I see. And for someone who, like we mentioned earlier in the Python community, for example, there is, um, Celery. For someone who is using a task scheduler like that, what's the incentive to switch or use something different? [00:17:17] Mike: Well, I, I always say if you're using something right now, I'm not going to try and convince you to switch necessarily. It's when you have pain that you want to switch and move away. Maybe you have Maybe there's capabilities in the newer system that you really need that the old system doesn't provide, but Celery is such a widely known system that I'm not necessarily going to try and convince people to move away from it, but if people are looking for a new system, one of the things that Celery does that Faktory does not do is Celery provides like data adapters for using store, lots of different storage systems, right? [00:17:55] Faktory doesn't do that. Faktory is more, has more of the Rails mantra of, you know, Omakase where we choose, I choose to use Redis and that's it. You don't, you don't have a choice for what to use because who cares, you know, at the end of the day, let Faktory deal with it. it's, it's not something that, You should even necessarily be concerned about it. [00:18:17] Just, just try Faktory out and see how it works for you. Um, so I, I try to take those operational concerns off the table and just have the user focus on, you know, usability, performance, and that sort of thing. but it is, it's, it's another background job system out there for people to try out and see if they like that. [00:18:36] And, and if they want to, um, if they know Celery and they want to use Celery, more power to Faktory them. Sidekiq (Ruby) or Faktory (Polyglot) [00:18:43] Jeremy: And Sidekiq and Faktory, they serve a very similar purpose. For someone who they have a new project, they haven't chosen a job. scheduling system, if they were using Ruby, would it ever make sense for them to use Faktory versus use Sidekiq? [00:19:05] Mike: Uh Faktory is excellent in a polyglot situation. So if you're using multiple languages, if you're creating jobs in Ruby, but you're executing them in Python, for instance, um, you know, if you've, I have people who are, Creating jobs in PHP and executing them in Python, for instance. That kind of polyglot scenario, Sidekiq can't do that at all. [00:19:31] So, Faktory is useful there. In terms of Ruby, Ruby is just another language to Faktory. So, there is a Ruby API for using Faktory, and you can create and execute Ruby jobs with Faktory. But, you'll find that in the Ruby community, Sidekiq is much widely... much more widely used and understood and known. So if you're just using Ruby, I think, I think Sidekiq is the right choice. [00:19:59] I wouldn't look at Faktory. But if you do need, find yourself needing that polyglot tool, then Faktory is there. Temporal [00:20:07] Jeremy: And this is maybe one, maybe one layer of abstraction higher, but there's a product called Temporal that has some of this job scheduling, but also this workflow component. I wonder if you've tried that out and how you think about that product? [00:20:25] Mike: I've heard of them. I don't know a lot about the product. I do have a workflow API, the Sidekiq batches, which allow you to fan out jobs and then, and then execute callbacks when all the jobs in that, in that batch are done. But I don't, provide sort of a, a high level. Graphical Workflow Editor or anything like that. [00:20:50] Those to me are more marketing tools that you use to sell the tool for six figures. And I don't think they're usable. And I don't think they're actually used day to day. I provide an API for developers to use. And developers don't like moving blocks of code around in a GUI. They want to write code. And, um, so yeah, temporal, I, like I said, I don't know much about them. [00:21:19] I also, are they a venture capital backed startup? [00:21:22] Jeremy: They are, is my understanding, [00:21:24] Mike: Yeah, that, uh, any, any sort of venture capital backed startup, um, who's building technical infrastructure. I, I would look long and hard at, I'm, I think open source is the right core to build on. Of course I sell commercial software, but. I'm bootstrapped. I'm profitable. [00:21:46] I'm going to be around forever. A VC backed startup, they tend to go bankrupt, because they either get big or they go out of business. So that would be my only comment is, is, be a little bit leery about relying on commercial venture capital based infrastructure for, for companies, uh, long term. Getting people to pay for Sidekiq [00:22:05] Jeremy: So I think that's a really interesting part about your business is that I think a lot of open source maintainers have a really big challenge figuring out how to make it as a living. The, there are so many projects that they all have a very permissive license and you can use them freely one example I can think of is, I, I talked with, uh, David Kramer, who's the CTO at Sentry, and he, I don't think they use it anymore, but they, they were using Nginx, right? [00:22:39] And he's like, well, Nginx, they have a paid product, like Nginx. Plus that or something. I don't know what the name is, but he was like, but I'm not going to pay for it. Right. I'm just going to use the free one. Why would I, you know, pay for the, um, the paid thing? So I, I, I'm kind of curious from your perspective when you were coming up with Sidekiq both as an open source product, but also as a commercial one, how did you make that determination of like to make a product where it's going to be useful in its open source form? [00:23:15] I can still convince people to pay money for it. [00:23:19] Mike: Yeah, the, I was terrified, to be blunt, when I first started out. when I started the Sidekiq project, I knew it was going to take a lot of time. I knew if it was successful, I was going to be doing it for the next decade. Right? So I started in 2012, and here I am in 2023, over a decade, and I'm still doing it. [00:23:38] So my expectation was met in that regard. And I knew I was not going to be able to last that long. If I was making zero dollars, right? You just, you burn out. Nobody can last that long. Well, I guess there are a few exceptions to that rule, but yeah, money, I tend to think makes things a little more sustainable for sure. [00:23:58] Especially if you can turn it into a full time job solving and supporting a project that you, you love and, and is, is, you know, your, your, your baby, your child, so to speak, your software, uh, uh, creation that you've given to the world. but I was terrified. but one thing I did was at the time I was blogging a lot. [00:24:22] And so I was telling people about Sidekiq. I was telling people what was to come. I was talking about ideas and. The one thing that I blogged about was financial experiments. I said bluntly to the, to, to the Ruby community, I'm going to be experimenting with financial stability and sustainability with this project. [00:24:42] So not only did I create this open source project, but I was also publicly saying I I need to figure out how to make this work for the next decade. And so eventually that led to Sidekiq Pro. And I had to figure out how to build a closed source Ruby gem, which, uh, There's not a lot of, so I was kind of in the wild there. [00:25:11] But, you know, thankfully all the pieces came together and it was actually possible. I couldn't have done it if it wasn't possible. Like, we would not be talking if I couldn't make a private gem. So, um, but it happened to work out. Uh, and it allowed me to, to gate features behind a paywall effectively. And, and yeah, you're right. [00:25:33] It can be tough to make people pay for software. but I'm a developer who's selling to other developers, not, not just developers, open source developers, and they know that they have this financial problem, right? They know that there's this sustainability problem. And I was blunt in saying, this is my solution to my sustainability. [00:25:56] So, I charge what I think is a very fair price. It's only a thousand dollars a year to a hobbyist. That may seem like a lot of money to a business. It's a drop in the bucket. So it was easy for developers to say, Hey, listen, we want to buy this tool for a thousand bucks. It'll ensure our infrastructure is maintained for the next decade. [00:26:18] And it's, and it's. And it's relatively cheap. It's way less than, uh, you know, a salary or even a laptop. So, so that's, that's what I did. And, um, it's, it worked out great. People, people really understood. Even today, I talk to people and they say, we, we signed up for Sidekiq Pro to support you. So it's, it's, it's really, um, invigorating to hear people, uh, thank me and, and they're, they're actively happy that they're paying me and our customers. [00:26:49] Jeremy: it's sort of, uh, maybe a not super common story, right, in terms of what you went through. Because when I think of open core businesses, I think of companies like, uh, GitLab, which are venture funded, uh, very different scenario there. I wonder, like, in your case, so you started in 2012, and there were probably no venture backed competitors, right? [00:27:19] People saying that we're going to make this job scheduling system and some VC is going to give me five million dollars and build a team to work on this. It was probably at the time, maybe it was Rescue, which was... [00:27:35] Mike: There was a venture backed system called IronMQ, [00:27:40] Jeremy: Hmm. [00:27:41] Mike: And I'm not sure if they're still around or not, but they... They took, uh, one or more funding rounds. I'm not sure exactly, but they were VC backed. They were doing, background jobs, scheduled jobs, uh, you know, running container, running container jobs. They, they eventually, I think, wound up sort of settling on Docker containers. [00:28:06] They'll basically spin up a Docker container. And that container can do whatever it wants. It can execute for a second and then shut down, or it can run for, for however long, but they would, um, yeah, I, yeah, I'll, I'll stop there because I don't know the actual details of exactly their system, but I'm not sure if they're still around, but that's the only one that I remember offhand that was around, you know, years ago. [00:28:32] Yeah, it's, it's mostly, you know, low level open source infrastructure. And so, anytime you have funded startups, they're generally using that open source infrastructure to build their own SaaS. And so SaaS's are the vast majority of where you see sort of, uh, commercial software. [00:28:51] Jeremy: so I guess in that way it, it, it gave you this, this window or this area where you could come in and there wasn't, other than that iron, product, there wasn't this big money that you were fighting against. It was sort of, it was you telling people openly, I'm, I'm working on this thing. [00:29:11] I need to make money so that I can sustain it. And, if you, yeah. like the work I do, then, you know, basically support me. Right. And, and so I think that, I'm wondering how we can reproduce that more often because when you see new products, a lot of times it is VC backed, right? [00:29:35] Because people say, I need to work on this. I need to be paid. and I can't ask a team to do this. For nothing, right? So [00:29:44] Mike: Yeah. It's. It's a wicked problem. Uh, it's a really, really hard problem to solve if you take vc you there, that that really kind of means that you need to be making tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars in sales. If you are building a small or relatively small. You know, put small in quotes there because I don't really know what that means, but if you have a small open source project, you can't charge huge amounts for it, right? [00:30:18] I mean, Sidekiq is a, I would call a medium sized open source project, and I'm charging a thousand bucks for it. So if you're building, you know, I don't know, I don't even want to necessarily give example, but if you're building some open source project, and It's one of 300 libraries that people's applications will depend on. [00:30:40] You can't necessarily charge a thousand dollars for that library. depending on the size and the capabilities, maybe you can, maybe you can't. But there's going to be a long tail of open source projects that just, they can't, they can't charge much, if anything, for them. So, unfortunately, we have, you know, these You kind of have two pathways. [00:31:07] Venture capital, where you've got to sell a ton, or free. And I've kind of walked that fine line where I'm a small business, I can charge a small amount because I'm bootstrapped. And, and I don't need huge amounts of money, and I, and I have a project that is of the right size to where I can charge a decent amount of money. [00:31:32] That means that I can survive with 500 or a thousand customers. I don't need to have a hundred million dollars worth of customers. Because I, you know, when I started the business, one of the constraints I said is I don't want to hire anybody. I'm just going to be solo. And part of the, part of my ability to keep a low price and, and keep running sustainably, even with just You know, only a few hundred customers is because I'm solo. [00:32:03] I don't have the overhead of investors. I don't have the overhead of other employees. I don't have an office space. You know, my overhead is very small. So that is, um, you know, I just kind of have a unique business in that way, I guess you might say. Keeping the business solo [00:32:21] Jeremy: I think that's that's interesting about your business as well But the fact that you've kept it you've kept it solo which I would imagine in most businesses, they need support people. they need, developers outside of maybe just one. Um, there's all sorts of other, I don't think overhead is the right word, but you just need more people, right? [00:32:45] And, and what do you think it is about Sidekiq that's made it possible for it to just be a one person operation? [00:32:52] Mike: There's so much administrative overhead in a business. I explicitly create business policies so that I can run solo. you know, my support policy is officially you get one email ticket or issue per quarter. And, and anything more than that, I can bounce back and say, well, you're, you're requiring too much support. [00:33:23] In reality, I don't enforce that at all. And people email me all the time, but, but things like. Things like dealing with accounting and bookkeeping and taxes and legal stuff, licensing, all that is, yeah, a little bit of overhead, but I've kept it as minimal as I can. And part of that is I don't want to hire another employee because then that increases the administrative overhead that I have. [00:33:53] And Sidekiq is so tied to me and my knowledge that if I hire somebody, they're probably not going to know Ruby and threading and all the intricate technical detail necessary to build and maintain and support the system. And so really you'll kind of regress a little bit. We won't be able to give as good support because I'm busy helping that other employee. Being selective about customers [00:34:23] Mike: So, yeah, it's, it's a tightrope act where you've got to really figure out how can I scale myself as far as possible without overwhelming myself. The, the overwhelming thing that I have that I've never been able to solve. It's just dealing with billing inquiries, customers, companies, emailing me saying, how do we buy this thing? [00:34:46] Can I get an invoice? Every company out there, it seems wants an invoice. And the problem with invoicing is it takes a lot more. manual labor and administrative overhead to issue that invoice to collect payment on the invoice. So that's one of the reasons why I have a very strict policy about credit card only for, for the vast majority of my customers. [00:35:11] And I demand that companies pay a lot more. You have to have a pretty big enterprise license if you want an invoice. And if the company, if the company comes back and complains and says, well, you know, that's ridiculous. We don't, we don't want to pay that much. We don't need it that much. Uh, you know, I, I say, okay, well then you have two, two things, two, uh, two things. [00:35:36] You can either pay with a credit card or you can not use Sidekiq. Like, that's, that's it. I'm, I don't need your money. I don't want the administrative overhead of dealing with your accounting department. I just want to support my, my customers and build my software. And, and so, yeah, I don't want to turn into a billing clerk. [00:35:55] So sometimes, sometimes the, the, the best thing in business that you can do is just say no. [00:36:01] Jeremy: That's very interesting because I think being a solo... Person is what probably makes that possible, right? Because if you had the additional staff, then you might say like, Well, I need to pay my staff, so we should be getting, you know, as much business as [00:36:19] Mike: Yeah. Chasing every customer you can, right. But yeah. [00:36:22] Every customer is different. I mean, I have some customers that just, they never contact me. They pay their bill really fast or right on time. And they're paying me, you know, five figures, 20, a year. And they just, it's a, God bless them because those are, are the. [00:36:40] Best customers to have and the worst customers are the ones who are paying 99 bucks a month and everything that they don't understand or whatever is a complaint. So sometimes, sometimes you, you want to, vet your customers from that perspective and say, which one of these customers are going to be good? [00:36:58] Which ones are going to be problematic? [00:37:01] Jeremy: And you're only only person... And I'm not sure how many customers you have, but [00:37:08] Mike: I have 2000 [00:37:09] Jeremy: 2000 customers. [00:37:10] Okay. [00:37:11] Mike: Yeah. [00:37:11] Jeremy: And has that been relatively stable or has there been growth [00:37:16] Mike: It's been relatively stable the last couple of years. Ruby has, has sort of plateaued. Um, it's, you don't see a lot of growth. I'm getting probably, um, 15, 20 percent growth maybe. Uh, so I'm not growing like a weed, like, you know, venture capital would want to see, but steady incremental growth is, is, uh, wonderful, especially since I do very little. [00:37:42] Sales and marketing. you know, I come to RubyConf I, I I tweet out, you know, or I, I toot out funny Mastodon Toots occasionally and, and, um, and, and put out new releases of the software. And, and that's, that's essentially my, my marketing. My marketing is just staying in front of developers and, and, and being a presence in the Ruby community. [00:38:06] But yeah, it, it's, uh. I, I, I see not a, not a huge amount of churn, but I see enough sales to, to, to stay up and keep my head above water and to keep growing, um, slowly but surely. Support needs haven't grown [00:38:20] Jeremy: And as you've had that steady growth, has the support burden not grown with it? [00:38:27] Mike: Not as much because once customers are on Sidekiq and they've got it working, then by and large, you don't hear from them all that much. There's always GitHub issues, you know, customers open GitHub issues. I love that. but yeah, by and large, the community finds bugs. and opens up issues. And so things remain relatively stable. [00:38:51] I don't get a lot of the complete newbie who has no idea what they're doing and wants me to, to tell them how to use Sidekiq that I just don't see much of that at all. Um, I have seen it before, but in that case, generally, I, I, I politely tell that person that, listen, I'm not here to educate you on the product. [00:39:14] It's there's documentation in the wiki. Uh, and there's tons of, of more Ruby, generic Ruby, uh, educational material out there. That's just not, not what I do. So, so yeah, by and large, the support burden is, is not too bad because once people are, are up and running, it's stable and, and they don't, they don't need to contact me. [00:39:36] Jeremy: I wonder too, if that's perhaps a function of the price, because if you're a. new developer or someone who's not too familiar with how to do job processing or what they want to do when you, there is the open source product, of course. but then the next step up, I believe is about a hundred dollars a month. [00:39:58] And if you're somebody who is kind of just getting started and learning how things work, you're probably not going to pay that, is my guess. And so you'll never hear from them. [00:40:11] Mike: Right, yeah, that's a good point too, is the open source version, which is what people inevitably are going to use and integrate into their app at first. Because it's open source, you're not going to email me directly, um, and when people do email me directly, Sidekiq support questions, I do, I reply literally, I'm sorry I don't respond to private email, unless you're a customer. [00:40:35] Please open a GitHub issue and, um, that I try to educate both my open source users and my commercial customers to try and stay in GitHub issues because private email is a silo, right? Private email doesn't help anybody else but them. If I can get people to go into GitHub issues, then that's a public record. [00:40:58] that people can search. Because if one person has that problem, there's probably a dozen other people that have that same problem. And then that other, those other 11 people can search and find the solution to their problem at four in the morning when I'm asleep. Right? So that's, that's what I'm trying to do is, is keep, uh, keep everything out in the open so that people can self service as much as possible. Sidekiq open source [00:41:24] Jeremy: And on the open source side, are you still primarily the main contributor? Or do you have other people that are [00:41:35] Mike: I mean, I'd say I do 90 percent of the work, which is why I don't feel guilty about keeping 100 percent of the money. A lot of open source projects, when they look for financial sustainability, they also look for how can we split this money amongst the team. And that's, that's a completely different topic that I've. [00:41:55] is another reason why I've stayed solo is if I hire an employee and I pay them 200, 000 a year as a developer, I'm meanwhile keeping all the rest of the profits of the company. And so that almost seems a little bit unfair. because we're both still working 40 hours a week, right? Why am I the one making the vast majority of the, of the profit and the money? [00:42:19] Um, so, uh, I've always, uh, that's another reason why I've stayed solo, but, but yeah, having a team of people working on something, I do get, regular commits, regular pull requests from people, fixing a bug that they found or just making a tweak that. that they saw, that they thought they could improve. [00:42:42] A little more rarely I get a significant improvement or feature, as a pull request. but Sidekiq is so stable these days that it really doesn't need a team of people maintaining it. The volume of changes necessary, I can easily keep up with that. So, I'm still doing 90 95 percent of the work. Are there other Sidekiq-like opportunities out there? [00:43:07] Jeremy: Yeah, so I think Sidekiq has sort of a unique positioning where it's the code base itself is small enough where you can maintain it yourself and you have some help, but primarily you're the main maintainer. And then you have enough customers who are willing to, to pay for the benefit it gives them on top of what the open source product provides. [00:43:36] cause it's, it's, you were talking about how. Every project people work on, they have, they could have hundreds of dependencies, right? And to ask somebody to, to pay for each of them is, is probably not ever going to happen. And so it's interesting to think about how you have things like, say, you know, OpenSSL, you know, it's a library that a whole bunch of people rely on, but nobody is going to pay a monthly fee to use it. [00:44:06] You have things like, uh, recently there was HashiCorp with Terraform, right? They, they decided to change their license because they, they wanted to get, you know, some of that value back, some of the money back, and the community basically revolted. Right? And did a fork. And so I'm kind of curious, like, yeah, where people can find these sweet spots like, like Sidekiq, where they can find this space where it's just small enough where you can work on it on your own and still get people to pay for it. [00:44:43] It's, I'm trying to picture, like, where are the spaces? Open source as a public utility [00:44:48] Mike: We need to look at other forms of financing beyond pure capitalism. If this is truly public infrastructure that needs to be maintained for the long term, then why are we, why is it that we depend on capitalism to do that? Our roads, our water, our sewer, those are not Capitalist, right? Those are utilities, that's public infrastructure that we maintain, that the government helps us maintain. [00:45:27] And in a sense, tech infrastructure is similar or could be thought of in a similar fashion. So things like Open Collective, things like, uh, there's a, there's a organization in Europe called NLNet, I think, out of the Netherlands. And they do a lot of grants to various open source projects to help them improve the state of digital infrastructure. [00:45:57] They support, for instance, Mastodon as a open source project that doesn't have any sort of corporate backing. They see that as necessary social media infrastructure, uh, for the long term. And, and I, and I think that's wonderful. I like to see those new directions being explored where you don't have to turn everything into a product, right? [00:46:27] And, and try and market and sale, um, and, and run ads and, and do all this stuff. If you can just make the case that, hey, this is, this is useful public infrastructure that so many different, um, Technical, uh, you know, applications and businesses could rely on, much like FedEx and DHL use our roads to the benefit of their own, their own corporate profits. [00:46:53] Um, why, why, why shouldn't we think of tech infrastructure sort of in a similar way? So, yeah, I would like to see us explore more. in that direction. I understand that in America that may not happen for quite a while because we are very, capitalist focused, but it's encouraging to see, um, places like Europe, uh, a little more open to, to trialing things like, cooperatives and, and grants and large long term grants to, to projects to see if they can, uh, provide sustainability in, in, you know, in a new way. [00:47:29] Jeremy: Yeah, that's a good point because I think right now, a lot of the open source infrastructure that we all rely on, either it's being paid for by large companies and at the whim of those large companies, if Google decides we don't want to pay for you to work on this project anymore, where does the money come from? [00:47:53] Right? And on the other hand, there's the thousands, tens of thousands of people who are doing it. just for free out of the, you know, the goodness of their, their heart. And that's where a lot of the burnout comes from. Right. So I think what you're saying is that perhaps a lot of these pieces that we all rely on, that our, our governments, you know, here in the United States, but also around the world should perhaps recognize as this is, like you said, this is infrastructure, and we should be. [00:48:29] Paying these people to keep the equivalent of the roads and, and, uh, all that working. [00:48:37] Mike: Yeah, I mean, I'm not, I'm not claiming that it's a perfect analogy. There's, there's, there's lots of questions that are unanswered in that, right? How do you, how do you ensure that a project is well maintained? What does that even look like? What does that mean? you know, you can look at a road and say, is it full of potholes or is it smooth as glass, right? [00:48:59] It's just perfectly obvious, but to a, to a digital project, it's, it's not as clear. So, yeah, but, but, but exploring those new ways because turning everybody into a businessman so that they can, they can keep their project going, it, it, it itself is not sustainable, right? so yeah, and that's why everything turns into a SaaS because a SaaS is easy to control. [00:49:24] It's easy to gatekeep behind a paywall and it's easy to charge for, whereas a library on GitHub. Yeah. You know, what do you do there? You know, obviously GitHub has sponsors, the sponsors feature. You've got Patreon, you've got Open Collective, you've got Tidelift. There's, there's other, you know, experiments that have been run, but nothing has risen to the top yet. [00:49:47] and it's still, it's still a bit of a grind. but yeah, we'll see, we'll see what happens, but hopefully people will keep experimenting and, and maybe, maybe governments will start. Thinking in the direction of, you know, what does it mean to have a budget for digital infrastructure maintenance? [00:50:04] Jeremy: Yeah, it's interesting because we, we started thinking about like, okay, where can we find spaces for other Sidekiqs? But it sounds like maybe, maybe that's just not realistic, right? Like maybe we need more of a... Yeah, a rethinking of, I guess the, the structure of how people get funded. Yeah. [00:50:23] Mike: Yeah, sometimes the best way to solve a problem is to think at a higher level. You know, we, the, the sustainability problem in American Silicon Valley based open source developers is naturally going to tend toward venture capital and, and capitalism. And I, you know, I think, I think that's, uh, extremely problematic on a, on a lot of different, in a lot of different ways. [00:50:47] And, and so sometimes you need to step back and say, well, maybe we're, maybe we just don't have the right tool set to solve this problem. But, you know, I, I. More than that, I'm not going to speculate on because it is a wicked problem to solve. [00:51:04] Jeremy: Is there anything else you wanted to, to mention or thought we should have talked about? [00:51:08] Mike: No, I, I, I loved the talk, of sustainability and, and open source. And I, it's, it's a, it's a topic really dear to my heart, obviously. So I, I am happy to talk about it at length with anybody, anytime. So thank you for having me. [00:51:25] Jeremy: All right. Thank you very much, Mike.

Sara Jackson, team lead at thoughtbot, talks about her experience teaching in Kanazawa, differences between students in Japan vs the US, transitioning from Java to Ruby, LAN parties in Rochester, and her closing thoughts on RubyConf.

David was the chief software architect and director of engineering at Stitch Fix. He's also the author of a number of books including Sustainable Web Development with Ruby on Rails and most recently Ruby on Rails Background Jobs with Sidekiq. He talks about how he made decisions while working with a medium sized team (~200 developers) at Stitch Fix. The audio quality for the first 19 minutes is not great but the correct microphones turn on right after that. Recorded at RubyConf 2023 in San Diego. A few topics covered: Ruby's origins at Stitch Fix Thoughts on Go Choosing technology and cloud services Moving off heroku Building a platform team Where Ruby and Rails fit in today The role of books and how different people learn Large Language Model's effects on technical content Related Links David's Blog Mastodon Transcript You can help correct transcripts on GitHub. Intro [00:00:00] Jeremy: Today. I want to share another conversation from RubyConf San Diego. This time it's with David Copeland. He was a chief software architect and director of engineering at stitch fix. And at the start of the conversation, you're going to hear about why he decided to write the book, sustainable web development with Ruby on rails. Unfortunately, you're also going to notice the sound quality isn't too good. We had some technical difficulties. But once you hit the 20 minute mark of the recording, the mics are going to kick in. It's going to sound way better. So I hope you stick with it. Enjoy. Ruby at Stitch Fix [00:00:35] David: Stitch Fix was a Rails shop. I had done a lot of Rails and learned a lot of things that worked and didn't work, at least in that situation. And so I started writing them down and I was like, I should probably make this more than just a document that I keep, you know, privately on my computer. Uh, so that's, you know, kind of, kind of where the genesis of that came from and just tried to, write everything down that I thought what worked, what didn't work. Uh, if you're in a situation like me. Working on a product, with a medium sized, uh, team, then I think the lessons in there will be useful, at least some of them. Um, and I've been trying to keep it up over, over the years. I think the first version came out a couple years ago, so I've been trying to make sure it's always up to date with the latest stuff and, and Rails and based on my experience and all that. [00:01:20] Jeremy: So it's interesting that you mention, medium sized team because, during the, the keynote, just a few moments ago, Matz the creator of Ruby was talking about how like, Oh, Rails is really suitable for this, this one person team, right? Small, small team. And, uh, he was like, you're not Google. So like, don't worry about, right. Can you scale to that level? Yeah. Um, and, and I wonder like when you talk about medium size or medium scale, like what are, what are we talking? [00:01:49] David: I think probably under 200 developers, I would say. because when I left Stitch Fix, it was closing in on that number of developers. And so it becomes, you know, hard to... You can kind of know who everybody is, or at least the names sound familiar of everybody. But beyond that, it's just, it's just really hard. But a lot of it was like, I don't have experience at like a thousand developer company. I have no idea what that's like, but I definitely know that Rails can work for like... 200 ish people how you can make it work basically. yeah. [00:02:21] Jeremy: The decision to use Rails, I'm assuming that was made before you joined? [00:02:26] David: Yeah, the, um, the CTO of Stitch Fix, he had come in to clean up a mess made by contractors, as often happens. They had used Django, which is like the Python version of Rails. And he, the CTO, he was more familiar with Rails. So the first two developers he hired, also familiar with Rails. There wasn't a lot to maintain with the Django app, so they were like, let's just start fresh, fresh with Rails. yeah, but it's funny because a lot of the code in that Rails app was, like, transliterated from Python. So you could, it would, it looked like the strangest Ruby code in the world because it was basically, there was no test. So they were like, let's just write the Ruby version of this Python just so we know it works. but obviously that didn't, didn't last forever, so. [00:03:07] Jeremy: So, so what's an example of a, of a tell? Where you're looking at the code and you're like, oh, this is clearly, it came from Python. [00:03:15] David: You'd see like, very, very explicit, right? Like Python, there's a lot of like single line things. very like, this sounds like a dig, but it's very simple looking code. Like, like I don't know Python, but I was able to change this Django app. And I had to, I could look at it and you can figure out immediately how it works. Cause there's. Not much to it. There's nothing fancy. So, like, this, this Ruby code, there was nothing fancy. You'd be like, well, maybe they should have memoized that, or maybe they should have taken that into another class, or you could have done this with a hash or something like that. So there was, like, none of that. It was just, like, really basic, plain code like you would see in any beginning programming language kind of thing. Which is at least nice. You can understand it. but you probably wouldn't have written it that way at first in Ruby. Thoughts on Go [00:04:05] Jeremy: Yeah, that's, that's interesting because, uh, people sometimes talk about the Go programming language and how it looks, I don't know if simple is the right word, but it's something where you look at the code and even if you don't necessarily understand Go, it's relatively straightforward. Yeah. I wonder what your thoughts are on that being a strength versus that being, like, [00:04:25] David: Yeah, so at Stitch Fix at one point we had a pro, we were moving off of Heroku and we were going to, basically build a deployment platform using ECS on AWS. And so the deployment platform was a Rails app and we built a command line tool using Ruby. And it was fine, but it was a very complicated command line tool and it was very slow. And so one of the developers was like, I'm going to rewrite it in Go. I was like, ugh, you know, because I just was not a big fan. So he rewrote it in Go. It was a bazillion times faster. And then I was like, okay, I'm going to add, I'll add a feature to it. It was extremely easy. Like, it's just like what you said. I looked at it, like, I don't know anything about Go. I know what is happening here. I can copy and paste this and change things and make it work for what I want to do. And it did work. And it was, it was pretty easy. so there's that, I mean, aesthetically it's pretty ugly and it's, I, I. I can't really defend that as a real reason to not use it, but it is kind of gross. I did do Go, I did a small project in Go after Stitch Fix, and there's this vibe in Go about like, don't create abstractions. I don't know where I got that from, but every Go I look at, I'm like we should make an abstraction for this, but it's just not the vibe. They just don't like doing that. They like it all written out. And I see the value because you can look at the code and know what it does and you don't have to chase abstractions anywhere. But. I felt like I was copying and pasting a lot of, a lot of things. Um, so I don't know. I mean, the, the team at Stitch Fix that did this like command line app in go, they're the platform team. And so their job isn't to write like web apps all day, every day. There's kind of in and out of all kinds of things. They have to try to figure out something that they don't understand quickly to debug a problem. And so I can see the value of something like go if that's your job, right? You want to go in and see what the issue is. Figure it out and be done and you're not going to necessarily develop deep expertise and whatever that thing is that you're kind of jumping into. Day to day though, I don't know. I think it would make me kind of sad. (laughs) [00:06:18] Jeremy: So, so when you say it would make you kind of sad, I mean, what, what about it? Is it, I mean, you mentioned that there's a lot of copy and pasting, so maybe there's code duplication, but are there specific things where you're like, oh, I just don't? [00:06:31] David: Yeah, so I had done a lot of Java in my past life and it felt very much like that. Where like, like the Go library for making an HTTP call for like, I want to call some web service. It's got every feature you could ever want. Everything is tweakable. You can really, you can see why it's designed that way. To dial in some performance issue or solve some really esoteric thing. It's there. But the problem is if you just want to get an JSON, it's just like huge production. And I felt like that's all I really want to do and it's just not making it very easy. And it just felt very, very cumbersome. I think that having to declare types also is a little bit of a weird mindset because, I mean, I like to make types in Ruby, I like to make classes, but I also like to just use hashes and stuff to figure it out. And then maybe I'll make a class if I figure it out, but Go, you can't. You have to have a class, you have to have a type, you have to think all that ahead of time, and it just, I'm not used to working that way, so it felt, I mean, I guess I could get used to it, but I just didn't warm up to that sort of style of working, so it just felt like I was just kind of fighting with the vibe of the language, kind of. Yeah, [00:07:40] Jeremy: so it's more of the vibe or the feel where you're writing it and you're like this seems a little too... Explicit. I feel like I have to be too verbose. It just doesn't feel natural for me to write this. [00:07:53] David: Right, it's not optimized for what in my mind is the obvious case. And maybe that's not the obvious case for the people that write Go programs. But for me, like, I just want to like get this endpoint and get the JSON back as a map. Not any easier than any other case, right? Whereas like in Ruby, right? And you can, I think if you include net HTTP, you can just type get. And it will just return whatever that is. Like, that's amazing. It's optimized for what I think is a very common use case. So it makes me feel really productive. It makes me feel pretty good. And if that doesn't work out long term, I can always use something more complicated. But I'm not required to dig into the NetHttp library just to do what in my mind is something very simple. [00:08:37] Jeremy: Yeah, I think that's something I've noticed myself in working with Ruby. I mean, you have the standard library that's very... Comprehensive and the API surface is such that, like you said there, when you're trying to do common tasks, a lot of times they have a call you make and it kind of does the thing you expected or hoped for. [00:08:56] David: Yeah, yeah. It's kind of, I mean, it's that whole optimized for programmer happiness thing. Like it does. That is the vibe of Ruby and it seems like that is still the way things are. And, you know, I, I suppose if I had a different mindset, I mean, because I work with developers who did not like using Ruby or Rails. They loved using Go or Java. And I, I guess there's probably some psychological analysis we could do about their background and history and mindset that makes that make sense. But, to me, I don't know. It's, it's nice when it's pleasant. And Ruby seems pleasant. (laughs) Choosing Technology [00:09:27] Jeremy: as a... Software Architect, or as a CTO, when, when you're choosing technology, what are some of the things you look at in terms of, you know? [00:09:38] David: Yeah, I mean, I think, like, it's a weird criteria, but I think what is something that the team is capable of executing with? Because, like, most, right, most programming languages all kind of do the same thing. Like, you can kind of get most stuff done in most common popular programming languages. So, it's probably not... It's not true that if you pick the wrong language, you can't build the app. Like, that's probably not really the case. At least for like a web app or something. so it's more like, what is the team that's here to do it? What are they comfortable and capable of doing? I worked on a project with... It was a mix of like junior engineers who knew JavaScript, and then some senior engineers from Google. And for whatever reason someone had chosen a Rails app and none of them were comfortable or really yet competent with doing Ruby on Rails and they just all hated it and like it didn't work very well. Um, and so even though, yes, Rails is a good choice for doing stuff for that team at that moment. Not a good choice. Right. So I think you have to go in and like, what, what are we going to be able to execute on so that when the business wants us to do something, we just do it. And we don't complain and we don't say, Oh, well we can't because this technology that we chose, blah, blah, blah. Like you don't ever want to say that if possible. So I think that's. That's kind of the, the top thing. I think second would be how widely supported is it? Like you don't want to be the cutting edge user that's finding all the bugs in something really. Like you want to use something that's stable. Postgres, MySQL, like those work, those are fine. The bugs have been sorted out for most common use cases. Some super fancy edge database, I don't know if I'd want to be doing, doing that you know? Choosing cloud services [00:11:15] Jeremy: How do you feel about the cloud specific services and databases? Like are you comfortable saying like, oh, I'm going to use... Google Cloud, BigQuery. Yeah. [00:11:27] David: That sort of thing. I think it would kind of fall under the same criteria that I was just, just saying like, so with AWS it's interesting 'cause when we moved from Heroku to AWS by EC2 RDS, their database thing, uh, S3, those have been around for years, probably those are gonna work, but they always introduce new things. Like we, we use RabbitMQ and AWS came out with. Some, I forget what it was, it was a queuing service similar to Rabbit. We were like, Oh, maybe we should switch to that. But it was clear that they weren't really ready to support it. So. Yeah, so we didn't, we didn't switch to that. So I, you gotta try to read the tea leaves of the provider to see are they committed to, to supporting this thing or is this there to get some enterprise client to move into the cloud. And then the idea is to move off of that transitional thing into what they do support. And it's hard to get a clear answer from them too. So it takes a little bit of research to figure out, Are they going to support this or not? Because that's what you don't want. To move everything into some very proprietary cloud system and have them sunset it and say, Oh yeah, now you've got to switch again. Uh, that kind of sucks. So, it's a little trickier. [00:12:41] Jeremy: And what kind of questions or research do you do? Is it purely a function of this thing has existed for X number of years so I feel okay? [00:12:52] David: I mean, it's kind of similar to looking at like some gem you're going to add to your project, right? So you'll, you'll look at how often does it change? Is it being updated? Uh, what is the documentation? Does it look like someone really cared about the documentation? Does the documentation look updated? Are there issues with it that are being addressed or, or not? Um, so those are good signals. I think, talking to other practitioners too can be good. Like if you've got someone who's experienced. You can say, hey, do you know anybody back channeling through, like, everybody knows somebody that works at AWS, you can probably try to get something there. at Stitch Fix, we had an enterprise support contract, and so your account manager will sometimes give you good information if you ask. Again, it's a, they're not going to come out and say, don't use this product that we have, but they might communicate that in a subtle way. So you have to triangulate from all these sources to try to. to try to figure out what, what you want to do. [00:13:50] Jeremy: Yeah, it kind of makes me wish that there was a, a site like, maybe not quite like, can I use, right? Can I use, you can see like, oh, can I use this in my browser? Is there, uh, like an AWS or a Google Cloud? Can I trust this? Can I trust this? Yeah. Is this, is this solid or not? [00:14:04] David: Right, totally. It's like, there's that, that site where you, it has all the Apple products and it says whether or not you should buy it because one may or may not be coming out or they may be getting rid of it. Like, yeah, that would... For cloud services, that would be, that would be nice. [00:14:16] Jeremy: Yeah, yeah. That's like the Mac Buyer's Guide. And then we, we need the, uh, the technology. Yeah. Maybe not buyers. Cloud Provider Buyer's Guide, yeah. I guess we are buyers. [00:14:25] David: Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. [00:14:27] Jeremy: it's interesting that you, you mentioned how you want to see that, okay, this thing is mature. I think it's going to stick around because, I, interviewed, someone who worked on, I believe it was the CloudWatch team. Okay. Daniel Vassalo, yeah. so he left AWS, uh, after I think about 10 years, and then he wrote a book called, uh, The Good Parts of AWS. Oh! And, if you read his book, most of the services he says to use are the ones that are, like, old. Yeah. He's, he's basically saying, like, S3, you know you're good. Yeah. Right? but then all these, if you look at the AWS webpage, they have who knows, I don't know how many hundreds of services. Yeah. He's, he's kind of like I worked there and I would not use, you know, all these new services. 'cause I myself, I don't trust [00:15:14] David: it yet. Right. And so, and they're working there? Yeah, they're working there. Yeah. No. One of the VPs at Stitch Fix had worked on Google Cloud and so when we were doing this transition from Heroku, he was like, we are not using Google Cloud. I was like, really? He's like AWS is far ahead of the game. Do not use Google Cloud. I was like, all right, I don't need any more info. You work there. You said don't. I'm gonna believe you. So [00:15:36] Jeremy: what, what was his did he have like a core point? [00:15:39] David: Um, so he never really had anything bad to say about Google per se. Like I think he enjoyed his time there and I think he thought highly of who he worked with and what he worked on and that sort of thing. But his, where he was coming from was like AWS was so far ahead. of Google on anything that we would use, he was like, there's, there's really no advantage to, to doing it. AWS is a known quantity, right? it's probably still the case. It's like, you know, you've heard the nobody ever got fired for using IBM or using Microsoft or whatever the thing is. Like, I think that's, that was kind of the vibe. And he was like, moving all of our infrastructure right before we're going to go public. This is a serious business. We should just use something that we know will work. And he was like, I know this will work. I'm not confident about. Google, uh, for our use case. So we shouldn't, we shouldn't risk it. So I was like, okay, I trust you because I didn't know anything about any of that stuff at the time. I knew Heroku and that was it. So, yeah. [00:16:34] Jeremy: I don't know if it's good or bad, but like you said, AWS seems to be the default choice. Yeah. And I mean, there's people who use Azure. I assume it's mostly primarily Microsoft. Yeah. And then there's Google Cloud. It's not really clear why you would pick it, unless there was a specific service or something that only they had. [00:16:55] David: Yeah, yeah. Or you're invested in Google, you know, you want to keep everything there. I mean, I don't know. I haven't really been at that level to make that kind of decision, and I would probably choose AWS for the reasons discussed, but, yeah. Moving off Heroku [00:17:10] Jeremy: And then, so at Stitch Fix, you said you moved off of Heroku [00:17:16] David: yeah. Yeah, so we were heavy into Heroku. I think that we were told that at one point we had the biggest Heroku Postgres database on their platform. Not a good place to be, right? You never want to be the biggest customer person, usually. but the problem we were facing was essentially we were going to go public. And to do that, you're under all the scrutiny. about many things, including the IT systems and the security around there. So, like, by default, a Postgres, a Heroku Postgres database is, like, on the internet. It's only secured by the password. all their services are on the internet. So, not, not ideal. they were developing their private cloud service at that time. And so that would have given us, in theory, on paper, it would have solved all of our problems. And we liked Heroku and we liked the developer experience. It was great. but... Heroku private spaces, it was still early. There's a lot of limitations that when they explained why those limitations, they were reasonable. And if we had. started from scratch on Heroku Private Spaces. It probably would have worked great, but we hadn't. So we just couldn't make it work. So we were like, okay, we're going to have to move to AWS so that everything can be basically off the internet. Like our public website needs to be on the internet and that's kind of it. So we need to, so that's basically was the, was the impetus for that. but it's too bad because I love Heroku. It was great. I mean, they were, they were a great partner. They were great. I think if Stitch Fix had started life a year later, Private Spaces. Now it's, it's, it's way different than it was then. Cause it's been, it's a mature product now, so we could have easily done that, but you know, the timing didn't work out, unfortunately. [00:18:50] Jeremy: And that was a compliance thing to, [00:18:53] David: Yeah. And compliance is weird cause they don't tell you what to do, but they give you some parameters that you need to meet. And so one of them is like how you control access. So, so going public, the compliance is around the financial data and. Ensuring that the financial data is accurate. So a lot of the systems at Stichfix were storing the financial data. We, you know, the warehouse management system was custom made. Uh, all the credit card processing was all done, like it was all in some databases that we had running in Heroku. And so those needed to be subject to stricter security than we could achieve with just a single password that we just had to remember to rotate when someone like left the team. So that was, you know, the kind of, the kind of impetus for, for all of that. [00:19:35] Jeremy: when you were using Heroku, Salesforce would have already owned it then. Did you, did you get any sense that you weren't really sure about the future of the platform while you're on it or, [00:19:45] David: At that time, no, it seemed like they were still innovating. So like, Heroku has a Redis product now. They didn't at the time we wish that they did. They told us they're working on it, but it wasn't ready. We didn't like using the third parties. Kafka was not a thing. We very much were interested in that. We would have totally used it if it was there. So they were still. Like doing bigger innovations then, then it seems like they are now. I don't know. It's weird. Like they're still there. They still make money, I assume for Salesforce. So it doesn't feel like they're going away, but they're not innovating at the pace that they were kind of back in the day. [00:20:20] Jeremy: it used to feel like when somebody's asking, I want to host a Rails app. Then you would say like, well, use Heroku because it's basically the easiest to get started. It's a known quantity and it's, it's expensive, but, it seemed for, for most people, it was worth it. and then now if I talk to people, it's like. Not what people suggest anymore. [00:20:40] David: Yeah, because there's, there's actual competitors. It's crazy to me that there was no competitors for years, and now there's like, Render and Fly. io seem to be the two popular alternatives. Um, I doubt they're any cheaper, honestly, but... You get a sense, right, that they're still innovating, still building those platforms, and they can build with, you know, all of the knowledge of what has come before them, and do things differently that might, that might help. So, I still use Heroku for personal things just because I know it, and I, you know, sometimes you don't feel like learning a new thing when you just want to get something done, but, yeah, I, I don't know if we were starting again, I don't know, maybe I'd look into those things. They, they seem like they're getting pretty mature and. Heroku's resting on its laurels, still. [00:21:26] Jeremy: I guess I never quite the mindset, right? Where you You have a platform that's doing really well and people really like it and you acquire it and then it just It seems like you would want to keep it rolling, right? (laughs) [00:21:38] David: Yeah, it's, it is wild, I mean, I guess... Why did you, what was Salesforce thinking they were going to get? Uh, who knows maybe the person at Salesforce that really wanted to purchase it isn't there. And so no one at Salesforce cares about it. I mean, there's all these weird company politics that like, who knows what's going on and you could speculate. all day. What's interesting is like, there's definitely some people in the Ruby community who work there and still are working there. And that's like a little bit of a canary for me. I'm like, all right, well, if that person's still working there, that person seems like they're on the level and, and, and, and seems pretty good. They're still working there. It, it's gotta be still a cool place to be or still doing something, something good. But, yeah, I don't know. I would, I would love to know what was going on in all the Salesforce meetings about acquiring that, how to manage it. What are their plans for it? I would love to know that stuff. [00:22:29] Jeremy: maybe you had some experience with this at Stitch Fix But I've heard with Heroku some of their support staff at least in the past they would, to some extent, actually help you troubleshoot, like, what's going on with your app. Like, if your app is, like, using a whole bunch of memory, and you're out of memory, um, they would actually kind of look into that, for you, which is interesting, because it's like, that's almost like a services thing than it is just a platform. [00:22:50] David: Yeah. I mean, they, their support, you would get, you would get escalated to like an engineer sometimes, like who worked on that stuff and they would help figure out what the problem was. Like you got the sense that everybody there really wanted the platform to be good and that they were all sort of motivated to make sure that everybody. You know, did well and used the platform. And they also were good at, like a thing that trips everybody up about Heroku is that your app restarts every day. And if you don't know anything about anything, you might think that is stupid. Why, why would I want that? That's annoying. And I definitely went through that and I complained to them a lot. And I'm like, if you only could not restart. And they very patiently and politely explained to me why that it needed to do that, they weren't going to remove that, and how to think about my app given that reality, right? Which is great because like, what company does that, right? From the engineers that are working on it, like No, nobody does that. So, yeah, no, I haven't escalated anything to support at Heroku in quite some time, so I don't know if it's still like that. I hope it is, but I'm not really, not really sure. Building a platform team [00:23:55] Jeremy: Yeah, that, uh, that reminds me a little bit of, I think it's Rackspace? There's, there's, like, another hosting provider that was pretty popular before, and they... Used to be famous for that type of support, where like your, your app's having issues and somebody's actually, uh, SSHing into your box and trying to figure out like, okay, what's going on? which if, if that's happening, then I, I can totally see where the, the price is justified. But if the support is kind of like dropping off to where it's just, they don't do that kind of thing, then yeah, I can see why it's not so much of a, yeah, [00:24:27] David: We used to think of Heroku as like they were the platform team before we had our own platform team and they, they acted like it, which was great. [00:24:35] Jeremy: Yeah, I don't have, um, experience with, render, but I, I, I did, talk to someone from there, and it does seem like they're, they're trying to fill that role, um, so, yeah, hopefully, they and, and other companies, I guess like Vercel and things like that, um, they're, they're all trying to fill that space, [00:24:55] David: Yeah, cause, cause building our own internal platform, I mean it was the right thing to do, but it's, it's a, you can't just, you have to have a team on it, it's complicated, getting all the stuff in AWS to work the way you want it to work, to have it be kind of like Heroku, like it's not trivial. if I'm a one person company, I don't want to be messing around with that particularly. I want to just have it, you know, push it up and have it go and I'm willing to pay for that. So it seems logical that there would be competitors in that space. I'm glad there are. Hopefully that'll light a fire under, under everybody. [00:25:26] Jeremy: so in your case, it sounds like you moved to having your own platform team and stuff like that, uh, partly because of the compliance thing where you're like, we need our, we need to be isolated from the internet. We're going to go to AWS. If you didn't have that requirement, do you still think like that would have been the time to, to have your own platform team and manage that all yourself? [00:25:46] David: I don't know. We, we were thinking an issue that we were running into when we got bigger, um, was that, I mean, Heroku, it, It's obviously not as flexible as AWS, but it is still very flexible. And so we had a lot of internal documentation about this is how you use Heroku to do X, Y, and Z. This is how you set up a Stitch Fix app for Heroku. Like there was just the way that we wanted it to be used to sort of. Just make it all manageable. And so we were considering having a team spun up to sort of add some tooling around that to sort of make that a little bit easier for everybody. So I think there may have been something around there. I don't know if it would have been called a platform team. Maybe we call, we thought about calling it like developer happiness or because you got developer experience or something. We, we probably would have had something there, but. I do wonder how easy it would have been to fund that team with developers if we hadn't had these sort of business constraints around there. yeah, um, I don't know. You get to a certain size, you need some kind of manageability and consistency no matter what you're using underneath. So you've got to have, somebody has to own it to make sure that it's, that it's happening. [00:26:50] Jeremy: So even at your, your architect level, you still think it would have been a challenge to, to. Come to the executive team and go like, I need funding to build this team. [00:27:00] David: You know, certainly it's a challenge because everybody, you know, right? Nobody wants to put developers in anything, right? There are, there are a commodity and I mean, that is kind of the job of like, you know, the staff engineer or the architect at a company is you don't have, you don't have the power to put anybody on anything you, you have the power to Schedule a meeting with a VP or the CTO and they will listen to you. And that's basically, you've got to use that power to convince them of what you want done. And they're all reasonable people, but they're balancing 20 other priorities. So it would, I would have had to, it would have been a harder case to make that, Hey, I want to take three engineers. And have them write tooling to make Heroku easier to use. What? Heroku is not easy to use. Why aren't, you know, so you really, I would, it would be a little bit more of a stretch to walk them through it. I think a case could be made, but, definitely would take some more, more convincing than, than what was needed in our case. [00:27:53] Jeremy: Yeah. And I guess if you're able to contrast that with, you were saying, Oh, I need three people to help me make Heroku easier. Your actual platform team on AWS, I imagine was much larger, right? [00:28:03] David: Initially it was, there was, it was three people did the initial move over. And so by the time we went public, we'd been on this new system for, I don't know, six to nine months. I can't remember exactly. And so at that time the platform team was four or five people, and I, I mean, so percentage wise, right, the engineering team was maybe almost 200, 150, 200. So percentage wise, maybe a little small, I don't know. but it kind of gets back to the power of like the rails and the one person framework. Like everything we did was very much the same And so the Rails app that managed the deployment was very simple. The, the command line app, even the Go one with all of its verbosity was very, very simple. so it was pretty easy for that small team to manage. but, Yeah, so it was sort of like for redundancy, we probably needed more than three or four people because you know, somebody goes out sick or takes a vacation. That's a significant part of the team. But in terms of like just managing the complexity and building it and maintaining it, like it worked pretty well with, you know, four or five people. Where Rails fits in vs other technology [00:29:09] Jeremy: So during the Keynote today, they were talking about how companies like GitHub and Shopify and so on, they're, they're using Rails and they're, they're successful and they're fairly large. but I think the thing that was sort of unsaid was the fact that. These companies, while they use Rails, they use a lot of other, technology as well. And, and, and kind of increasing amounts as well. So, I wonder from your perspective, either from your experience at StitchFix or maybe going forward, what is the role that, that Ruby and Rails plays? Like, where does it make sense for that to be used versus like, Okay, we need to go and build something in Java or, you know, or Go, that sort of thing? [00:29:51] David: right. I mean, I think for like your standard database backed web app, it's obviously great. especially if your sort of mindset bought into server side rendering, it's going to be great at that. so like internal tools, like the customer service dashboard or... You know, something for like somebody who works at a company to use. Like, it's really great because you can go super fast. You're not going to be under a lot of performance constraints. So you kind of don't even have to think about it. Don't even have to solve it. You can, but you don't have to, where it wouldn't work, I guess, you know, if you have really strict performance. Requirements, you know, like a, a Go version of some API server is going to use like percentages of what, of what Rails would use. If that's meaningful, if what you're spending on memory or compute is, is meaningful, then, then yeah. That, that becomes worthy of consideration. I guess if you're, you know, if you're making a mobile app, you probably need to make a mobile app and use those platforms. I mean, I guess you can wrap a Rails app sort of, but you're still making, you still need to make a mobile app, that does something. yeah. And then, you know, interestingly, the data science part of Stitch Fix was not part of the engineering team. They were kind of a separate org. I think Ruby and Rails was probably the only thing they didn't use over there. Like all the ML stuff, everything is either Java or Scala or Python. They use all that stuff. And so, yeah, if you want to do AI and ML with Ruby, you, it's, it's hard cause there's just not a lot there. You really probably should use Python. It'll make your life easier. so yeah, those would be some of the considerations, I guess. [00:31:31] Jeremy: Yeah, so I guess in the case of, ML, Python, certainly, just because of the, the ecosystem, for maybe making a command line application, maybe Go, um, Go or Rust, perhaps, [00:31:44] David: Right. Cause you just get a single binary. Like the problem, I mean, I wrote this book on Ruby command line apps and the biggest problem is like, how do I get the Ruby VM to be anywhere so that it can then run my like awesome scripts? Like that's kind of a huge pain. (laughs) So [00:31:59] Jeremy: and then you said, like, if it's Very performance sensitive, which I am kind of curious in, in your experience with the companies you've worked at, when you're taking on a project like that, do you know up front where you're like, Oh, the CPU and memory usage is going to be a problem, or is it's like you build it and you're like, Oh, this isn't working. So now I know. [00:32:18] David: yeah, I mean, I, I don't have a ton of great experience there at Stitch Fix. The biggest expense the company had was the inventory. So like the, the cost of AWS was just de minimis compared to all that. So nobody ever came and said, Hey, you've got to like really save costs on, on that stuff. Cause it just didn't really matter. at the, the mental health startup I was at, it was too early. But again, the labor costs were just far, far exceeded the amount of money I was spending on, on, um, you know, compute and infrastructure and stuff like that. So, Not knowing anything, I would probably just sort of wait and see if it's a problem. But I suppose you always take into account, like, what am I actually building? And like, what does this business have to scale to, to make it worthwhile? And therefore you can kind of do a little bit of planning ahead there. But, I dunno, I think it would kind of have to depend. [00:33:07] Jeremy: There's a sort of, I guess you could call it a meme, where people say like, Oh, it's, it's not, it's not Rails that's slow, it's the, the database that's slow. And, uh, I wonder, is that, is that accurate in your experience, or, [00:33:20] David: I mean, most of the stuff that we had that was slow was the database, because like, it's really easy to write a crappy query in Rails if you're not, if you're not careful, and then it's really easy to design a database that doesn't have any indexes if you're not careful. Like, you, you kind of need to know that, But of course, those are easy to fix too, because you just add the index, especially if it's before the database gets too big where we're adding indexes is problematic. But, I think those are just easy performance mistakes to make. Uh, especially with Rails because you're not, I mean, a lot of the Rails developers at Citrix did not know SQL at all. I mean, they had to learn it eventually, but they didn't know it at all. So they're not even knowing that what they're writing could possibly be problematic. It's just, you're writing it the Rails way and it just kind of works. And at a small scale, it does. And it doesn't matter until, until one day it does. [00:34:06] Jeremy: And then in, in the context of, let's say, using ActiveRecord and instantiating the objects, or, uh, the time it takes to render templates, that kinds of things, to, at least in your experience, that wasn't such of an issue. [00:34:20] David: No, and it was always, I mean, whenever we looked at why something was slow, it was always the database and like, you know, you're iterating over some active records and then, and then, you know, you're going into there and you're just following this object graph. I've got a lot of the, a lot of the software at Stitch Fix was like internal stuff and it was visualizing complicated data out of the database. And so if you didn't think about it, you would just start dereferencing and following those relationships and you have this just massive view and like the HTML is fine. It's just that to render this div, you're. Digging into some active record super deep. and so, you know, that was usually the, the, the problems that we would see and they're usually easy enough to fix by making an index or. Sometimes you do some caching or something like that. and that solved most of the, most of the issues [00:35:09] Jeremy: The different ways people learn [00:35:09] Jeremy: so you're also the author of the book, Sustainable Web Development with Ruby on Rails. And when you talk to people about like how they learn things, a lot of them are going on YouTube, they're going on, uh, you know, looking for blogs and things like that. And so as an author, what do you think the role is of, of books now? Yeah, [00:35:29] David: I have thought about this a lot, because I, when I first got started, I'm pretty old, so books were all you had, really. Um, so they seem very normal and natural to me, but... does someone want to sit down and read a 400 page technical book? I don't know. so Dave Thomas who runs Pragmatic Bookshelf, he was on a podcast and was asked the same question and basically his answer, which is my answer, is like a long form book is where you can really lay out your thinking, really clarify what you mean, really take the time to develop sometimes nuanced, examples or nuanced takes on something that are Pretty hard to do in a short form video or in a blog post. Because the expectation is, you know, someone sends you an hour long YouTube video, you're probably not going to watch that. Two minute YouTube video is sure, but you can't, you can't get into so much, kind of nuanced detail. And so I thought that was, was right. And that was kind of my motivation for writing. I've got some thoughts. They're too detailed. It's, it's too much set up for a blog post. There's too much of a nuanced element to like, really get across. So I need to like, write more. And that means that someone's going to have to read more to kind of get to it. But hopefully it'll be, it'll be valuable. one of the sessions that we're doing later today is Ruby content creators, where it's going to be me and Noel Rappin and Dave Thomas representing the old school dudes that write books and probably a bunch of other people that do, you know, podcasts videos. It'd be interesting to see, I really want to know how do people learn stuff? Because if no one reads books to learn things, then there's not a lot of point in doing it. But if there is value, then, you know. It should be good and should be accessible to people. So, that's why I do it. But I definitely recognize maybe I'm too old and, uh, I'm not hip with the kids or, or whatever, whatever the case is. I don't know. [00:37:20] Jeremy: it's tricky because, I think it depends on where you are in the process of learning that thing. Because, let's say, you know a fair amount about the technology already. And you look at a book, in a lot of cases it's, it's sort of like taking you from nothing to something. And so you're like, well, maybe half of this isn't relevant to me, but then if I don't read it, then I'm probably missing a lot still. And so you're in this weird in be in between zone. Another thing is that a lot of times when people are trying to learn something, they have a specific problem. And, um, I guess with, with books, it's, you kind of don't know for sure if the thing you're looking for is going to be in the book. [00:38:13] David: I mean, so my, so my book, I would not say as a beginner, it's not a book to learn how to do Rails. It's like you already kind of know Rails and you want to like learn some comprehensive practices. That's what my book is for. And so sometimes people will ask me, I don't know Rails, should I get your book? And I'm like, no, you should not. but then you have the opposite thing where like the agile web development with Rails is like the beginner version. And some people are like, Oh, it's being updated for Rails 7. Should I get it? I'm like, probably not because How to go from zero to rails hasn't changed a lot in years. There's not that much that's going to be new. but, how do you know that, right? Hopefully the Table of Contents tells you. I mean, the first book I wrote with Pragmatic, they basically were like, The Table of Contents is the only thing the reader, potential reader is going to have to have any idea what's in the book. So, You need to write the table of contents with that in mind, which may not be how you'd write the subsections of a book, but since you know that it's going to serve these dual purposes of organizing the book, but also being promotional material that people can read, you've got to keep that in mind, because otherwise, how does anybody, like you said, how does anybody know what's, what's going to be in there? And they're not cheap, I mean, these books are 50 bucks sometimes, and That's a lot of money for people in the U. S. People outside the U. S. That's a ton of money. So you want to make sure that they know what they're getting and don't feel ripped off. [00:39:33] Jeremy: Yeah, I think the other challenge is, at least what I've heard, is that... When people see a video course, for whatever reason, they, they set, like, a higher value to it. They go, like, oh, this video course is, 200 dollars and it's, like, seems like a lot of money, but for some people it's, like, okay, I can do that. But then if you say, like, oh, this, this book I've been researching for five years, uh, I want to sell it for a hundred bucks, people are going to be, like no. No way., [00:40:00] David: Yeah. Right. A hundred bucks for a book. There's no way. That's a, that's a lot. Yeah. I mean, producing video, I've thought about doing video content, but it seems so labor intensive. Um, and it's kind of like, It's sort of like a performance. Like I was mentioning before we started that I used to play in bands and like, there's a lot to go into making an even mediocre performance. And so I feel like, you know, video content is the same way. So I get that it like, it does cost more to produce, but, are you getting more information out of it? I, that, I don't know, like maybe not, but who knows? I mean, people learn things in different ways. So, [00:40:35] Jeremy: It's just like this perception thing, I think. And, uh, I'm not sure why that is. Um, [00:40:40] David: Yeah, maybe it's newer, right? Maybe books feel older so they're easier to make and video seems newer. I mean, I don't know. I would love to talk to engineers who are like... young out of college, a few years into their career to see what their perception of this stuff is. Cause I mean, there was no, I mean, like I said, I read books cause that's all there was. There was no, no videos. You, you go to a conference and you read a book and that was, that was all you had. so I get it. It seems a whole video. It's fancier. It's newer. yeah, I don't know. I would love to hear a wide variety of takes on it to see what's actually the, the future, you know? [00:41:15] Jeremy: sure, yeah. I mean, I think it probably can't just be one or the other, right? Like, I think there are... Benefits of each way. Like, if you have the book, you can read it at your own pace without having to, like, scroll through the video, and you can easily copy and paste the, the code segments, [00:41:35] David: Search it. Go back and forth. [00:41:36] Jeremy: yeah, search it. So, I think there's a place for it, but yeah, I think it would be very interesting, like you said, to, to see, like, how are people learning, [00:41:45] David: Right. Right. Yeah. Well, it's the same with blogs and podcasts. Like I, a lot of podcasters I think used to be bloggers and they realized that like they can get out what they need by doing a podcast. And it's way easier because it's more conversational. You don't have to do a bunch of research. You don't have to do a bunch of editing. As long as you're semi coherent, you can just have a conversation with somebody and sort of get at some sort of thing that you want to talk about or have an opinion about. And. So you, you, you see a lot more podcasts and a lot less blogs out there because of that. So it's, that's kind of like the creators I think are kind of driving that a little bit. yeah. So I don't know. [00:42:22] Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, I can, I can say for myself, the thing about podcasts is that it's something that I can listen to while I'm doing something else. And so you sort of passively can hopefully pick something up out of that conversation, but... Like, I think it's maybe not so good at the details, right? Like, if you're talking code, you can talk about it over voice, but can you really visualize it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think if you sit down and you try to implement something somebody talked about, you're gonna be like, I don't know what's happening. [00:42:51] David: Yeah. [00:42:52] Jeremy: So, uh, so, so I think there's like these, these different roles I think almost for so like maybe you know the podcast is for you to Maybe get some ideas or get some familiarity with a thing and then when you're ready to go deeper You can go look at a blog post or read a book I think video kind of straddles those two where sometimes video is good if you want to just see, the general concept of a thing, and have somebody explain it to you, maybe do some visuals. that's really good. but then it can also be kind of detailed, where, especially like the people who stream their process, right, you can see them, Oh, let's, let's build this thing together. You can ask me questions, you can see how I think. I think that can be really powerful. at the same time, like you said, it can be hard to say, like, you know, I look at some of the streams and it's like, oh, this is a three hour stream and like, well, I mean, I'm interested. I'm interested, but yeah, it's hard enough for me to sit through a, uh, a three hour movie, [00:43:52] David: Well, then that, and that gets into like, I mean, we're, you know, we're at a conference and they, they're doing something a little, like, there are conference talks at this conference, but there's also like. sort of less defined activities that aren't a conference talk. And I think that could be a reaction to some of this too. It's like I could watch a conference talk on, on video. How different is that going to be than being there in person? maybe it's not that different. Maybe, maybe I don't need to like travel across the country to go. Do something that I could see on video. So there's gotta be something here that, that, that meets that need that I can't meet any other way. So it's all these different, like, I would like to think that's how it is, right? All this media all is a part to play and it's all going to kind of continue and thrive and it's not going to be like, Oh, remember books? Like maybe, but hopefully not. Hopefully it's like, like what you're saying. Like it's all kind of serving different purposes that all kind of work together. Yeah. [00:44:43] Jeremy: I hope that's the case, because, um, I don't want to have to scroll through too many videos. [00:44:48] David: Yeah. The video's not for me. Large Language Models [00:44:50] Jeremy: I, I like, I actually do find it helpful, like, like I said, for the high level thing, or just to see someone's thought process, but it's like, if you want to know a thing, and you have a short amount of time, maybe not the best, um, of course, now you have all the large language model stuff where you like, you feed the video in like, Hey, tell, tell, tell me, uh, what this video is about and give me the code snippets and all that stuff. I don't know how well it works, but it seems [00:45:14] David: It's gotta get better. Cause you go to a support site and they're like, here's how to fix your problem, and it's a video. And I'm like, can you just tell me? But I'd never thought about asking the AI to just look at the video and tell me. So yeah, it's not bad. [00:45:25] Jeremy: I think, that's probably where we're going. So it's, uh, it's a little weird to think about, but, [00:45:29] David: yeah, yeah. I was just updating, uh, you know, like I said, I try to keep the book updated when new versions of Rails come out, so I'm getting ready to update it for Rails 7. 1 and in Amazon's, Kindle Direct Publishing as their sort of backend for where you, you know, publish like a Kindle book and stuff, and so they added a new question, was AI used in the production of this thing or not? And if you answer yes, they want you to say how much, And I don't know what they're gonna do with that exactly, but I thought it was pretty interesting, cause I would be very disappointed to pay 50 for a book that the AI wrote, right? So it's good that they're asking that? Yeah. [00:46:02] Jeremy: I think the problem Amazon is facing is where people wholesale have the AI write the book, and the person either doesn't review it at all, or maybe looks at a little, a little bit. And, I mean, the, the large language model stuff is very impressive, but If you have it generate a technical book for you, it's not going to be good. [00:46:22] David: yeah. And I guess, cause cause like Amazon, I mean, think about like Amazon scale, like they're not looking at the book at all. Like I, I can go click a button and have my book available and no person's going to look at it. they might scan it or something maybe with looking for bad words. I don't know, but there's no curation process there. So I could, yeah. I could see where they could have that, that kind of problem. And like you as the, as the buyer, you don't necessarily, if you want to book on something really esoteric, there are a lot of topics I wish there was a book on that there isn't. And as someone generally want to put it on Amazon, I could see a lot of people buying it, not realizing what they're getting and feeling ripped off when it was not good. [00:47:00] Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, I, I don't know, if it's an issue with the, the technical stuff. It probably is. But I, I know they've definitely had problems where, fiction, they have people just generating hundreds, thousands of books, submitting them all, just flooding it. [00:47:13] David: Seeing what happens. [00:47:14] Jeremy: And, um, I think that's probably... That's probably the main reason why they ask you, cause they want you to say like, uh, yeah, you said it wasn't. And so now we can remove your book. [00:47:24] David: right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. [00:47:26] Jeremy: I mean, it's, it's not quite the same, but it's similar to, I don't know what Stack Overflow's policy is now, but, when the large language model stuff started getting big, they had a lot of people answering the questions that were just. Pasting the question into the model [00:47:41] David: Which because they got it from [00:47:42] Jeremy: and then [00:47:43] David: The Got model got it from Stack Overflow. [00:47:45] Jeremy: and then pasting the answer into Stack Overflow and the person is not checking it. Right. So it's like, could be right, could not be right. Um, cause, cause to me, it's like, if, if you generate it, if you generate the answer and the answer is right, and you checked it, I'm okay with that. [00:48:00] David: Yeah. Yeah. [00:48:01] Jeremy: but if you're just like, I, I need some karma, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna answer these questions with, with this bot, I mean, then maybe [00:48:08] David: I could have done that. You're not adding anything. Yeah, yeah. [00:48:11] Jeremy: it's gonna be a weird, weird world, I think. [00:48:12] David: Yeah, no kidding. No kidding. [00:48:15] Jeremy: that's a, a good place to end it on, but is there anything else you want to mention, [00:48:19] David: No, I think we covered it all just yeah, you could find me online. I'm Davetron5000 on Ruby. social Mastodon, I occasionally post on Twitter, but not that much anymore. So Mastodon's a place to go. [00:48:31] Jeremy: David, thank you so much [00:48:32] David: All right. Well, thanks for having me.

Episode Notes Rachael Wright-Munn (ChaelCodes) talks about her love of programming games (games with programming elements in them, not how to make games!), starting her streaming career with regex crosswords, and how streaming games and open source every week led her to a voice acting role in one of her favorite programming games. Recorded at RubyConf 2023 in San Diego. mastodon twitch Personal website Programming Games mentioned: Regex Crossword SHENZHEN I/O EXAPUNKS 7 Billion Humans One Dreamer Code Rom@ntic Bitburner Transcript You can help edit this transcript on GitHub. Jeremy: I'm here at RubyConf San Diego with Rachel Wright-Munn, and she goes by Chaelcodes online. Thanks for joining me today. Rachael: Hi, everyone. Hi, Jeremy. Really excited to be here. Jeremy: So probably the first thing I'll ask about is on your web page, and I've noticed you have streams, you say you have an interest in not just regular games, but programming games, so. Rachael: Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you asked about this. Okay, so I absolutely love programming games. When I first started streaming, I did it with Regex Crossword. What I really like about it is the fact that you have this joyful environment where you can solve puzzles and work with programming, and it's really focused on the experience and the joy. Are you familiar with Zach Barth of Zachtronics? Jeremy: Yeah. So, I've tried, what was it? There's TIS-100. And then there's the, what was the other one? He had one that's... Rachael: Opus Magnum? Shenzhen I/O? Jeremy: Yeah, Shenzhen I/O. Rachael: Oh, my gosh. Shenzhen I/O is fantastic. I absolutely love that. The whole conceit of it, which is basically that you're this electronics engineer who's just moved to Shenzhen because you can't find a job in the States. And you're trying to like build different solutions for these like little puzzles and everything. It was literally one of the, I think that was the first programming game that really took off just because of the visuals and everything. And it's one of my absolute favorites. I really like what he says about it in terms of like testing environments and the developer experience. Cause it's built based on assembly, right? He's made a couple of modifications. Like he's talked about it before where it's like The memory allocation is different than what it would actually look like in assembly and the way the registers are handled I believe is different, I wouldn't think of assembly as something that's like fun to write, but somehow in this game it is. How far did you get in it? Jeremy: Uh, so I didn't get too far. So, because like, I really like the vibe and sort of the environment and the whole concept, right, of you being like, oh, you've been shipped off to China because that's the only place that these types of jobs are, and you're working on these problems with bad documentation and stuff like that. And I like the whole concept, but then the actual writing of the software, I was like, I don't know. Rachael: And it's so hard, one of the interesting things about that game is you have components that you drop on the board and you have to connect them together and wire them, but then each component only has a specific number of lines. So like half the time I would be like, oh, I have this solution, but I don't have enough lines to actually run it or I can't fit enough components, then you have to go in and refactor it and everything. And it's just such a, I don't know, it's so much fun for me. I managed to get through all of the bonus levels and actually finish it. Some of them are just real, interesting from both a story perspective and interesting from a puzzle perspective. I don't wanna spoil it too much. You end up outside Shenzhen, I'll just say that. Jeremy: OK. That's some good world building there. Rachael: Yeah. Jeremy: Because in your professional life, you do software development work. So I wonder, what is it about being in a game format where you're like, I'm in it. I can do it more. And this time, I'm not even being paid. I'm just doing it for fun. Rachael: I think for me, software development in general is a very joyful experience. I love it. It's a very human thing. If you think about it like math, language, all these things are human concepts and we built upon that in order to build software in our programs and then on top of that, like the entire purpose of everything that we're building is for humans, right? Like they don't have rats running programs, you know what I mean? So when I think about human expression and when I think about programming, these two concepts are really closely linked for me and I do see it as joyful, But there are a lot of things that don't spark joy in our development processes, right? Like lengthy test suites, or this exhausting back and forth, or sometimes the designs, and I just, I don't know how to describe it, but sometimes you're dealing with ugly code, sometimes you're dealing with code smells, and in your professional developer life, sometimes you have to put up with that in order to ship features. But when you're working in a programming game, It's just about the experience. And also there is a correct solution, not necessarily a correct solution, but like there's at least one correct solution. You know for a fact that there's, that it's a solvable problem. And for me, that's really fun. But also the environment and the story and the world building is fun as well, right? So one of my favorite ones, we mentioned Shenzhen, but Zachtronics also has Exapunks. And that one's really fun because you have been infected by a disease. And like a rogue AI is the only one that can provide you with the medicine you need to prevent it. And what this disease is doing is it is converting parts of your body into like mechanical components, like wires and everything. So what you have to do as an engineer is you have to write the code to keep your body running. Like at one point, you were literally programming your heart to beat. I don't have problems like that in my day job. In my day job, it's like, hey, can we like charge our customers more? Like, can we put some banners on these pages? Like, I'm not hacking anybody's hearts to keep them alive. Jeremy: The stakes are a little more interesting. Yeah, yeah. Rachael: Yeah, and in general, I'm a gamer. So like having the opportunity to mix two of my passions is really fun. Jeremy: That's awesome. Yeah, because that makes sense where you were saying that there's a lot of things in professional work where it's you do it because you have to do it. Whereas if it's in the context of a game, they can go like, OK, we can take the fun problem solving part. We can bring in the stories. And you don't have to worry about how we're going to wrangle up issue tickets. Rachael: Yeah, there are no Jira tickets in programming games. Jeremy: Yeah, yeah. Rachael: I love what you said there about the problem solving part of it, because I do think that that's an itch that a lot of us as engineers have. It's like we see a problem, and we want to solve it, and we want to play with it, and we want to try and find a way to fix it. And programming games are like this really small, compact way of getting that dopamine hit. Jeremy: For sure. Yeah, it's like. Sometimes when you're doing software for work or for an actual purpose, there may be a feeling where you want to optimize something or make it look really nice or perform really well. And sometimes it just doesn't matter, right? It's just like we need to just put it out and it's good enough. Whereas if it's in the context of a game, you can really focus on like, I want to make this thing look pretty. I want to feel good about this thing I'm making. Rachael: You can make it look good, or you can make it look ugly. You don't have to maintain it. After it runs, it's done. Right, right, right. There's this one game. It's 7 Billion Humans. And it's built by the creators of World of Goo. And it's like this drag and drop programming solution. And what you do is you program each worker. And they go solve a puzzle. And they pick up blocks and whatever. But they have these shredders, right? And the thing is, you need to give to the shredder if you have like a, they have these like little data blocks that you're handing them. If you're not holding a data block and you give to the shredder, the worker gives themself to the shredder. Now that's not ideal inside a typical corporate workplace, right? Like we don't want employees shredding themselves. We don't want our workers terminating early or like anything like that. But inside the context of a game, in order to get the most optimal solution, They have like a lines of code versus fastest execution and sometimes in order to win the end like Lines of code. You just kind of have to shred all your workers at the, When I'm on stream and I do that when I'm always like, okay everybody close your eyes That's pretty good it's Yeah, I mean cuz like in the context of the game. Jeremy: I think I've seen where they're like little They're like little gray people with big eyes Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, so it's like, sorry, people. It's for the good of the company, right? Rachael: It's for my optimal lines of code solution. I always draw like a, I always write a humane solution before I shred them. Jeremy: Oh, OK. So it's, you know, I could save you all, but I don't have to. Rachael: I could save you all, but I would really like the trophy for it. There's like a dot that's going to show up in the elevator bay if I shred you. Jeremy: It's always good to know what's important. But so at the start, you mentioned there was a regular expression crossword or something like that. Is that how you got started with all this? Rachael: My first programming game was Regex Crossword. I absolutely loved it. That's how I learned Regex. Rachael: I love it a lot. I will say one thing that's been kind of interesting is I learned Regex through Regex Crossword, which means there's actually these really interesting gaps in my knowledge. What was it? at Link Tech Retreat, they had like a little Regex puzzle, and it was like forward slash T and then a plus, right? And I was like, I have no idea what that character is, right? Like, I know all the rest of them. But the problem is that forward slash T is tab, and Regex crossword is a browser game. So you can't have a solution that has tab in it. And have that be easy for users. Also, the idea of like greedy evaluation versus lazy evaluation doesn't apply, because you're trying to find a word that satisfies the regex. So it's not necessarily about what the regex is going to take. So it's been interesting finding those gaps, but I really think that some of the value there was around how regex operates and the rules underlying it and building enough experience that I can now use the documentation to fill in any gaps. Jeremy: So the crossword, is it where you know the word and you have to write a regular expression to match it? Or what's the? Rachael: They give you regex. And there's a couple of different versions, right? The first one, you have two regex patterns. There's one going up and down, and there's one going left and right. And you have to fill the crossword block with something that matches both regular expressions. Rachael: Then we get into hexagonal ones. Yeah, where you have angles and a hexagon, and you end up with like three regular expressions. What's kind of interesting about that one is I actually think that the hexagonal regex crosswords are a little bit easier because you have more rules and constraints, which are more hints about what goes in that box. Jeremy: Interesting. OK, so it's the opposite of what I was thinking. They give you the regex rules, and then you put in a word that's going to satisfy all the regex you see. Rachael: Exactly. When I originally did it, they didn't have any sort of hints or anything like that. It was just empty. Now it's like you click a box, and then they've got a suggestion of five possible letters that could go in there. And it just breaks my heart. I liked the old version that was plainer, and didn't have any hints, and was harder. But I acknowledge that the new version is prettier, and probably easier, and more friendly. But I feel like part of the joy that comes from games, that comes from puzzles, It comes from the challenge, and I miss the challenge. Jeremy: I guess someone, it would be interesting to see people who are new to it, if they had tried the old way, if they would have bounced off of it. Rachael: I think you're probably right. I just want them to give me a toggle somewhere. Jeremy: Yeah, oh, so they don't even let you turn off the hints, they're just like, this is how it is. Rachael: Yep. Jeremy: Okay. Well, we know all about feature flags. Rachael: And how difficult they are to maintain in perpetuity. Jeremy: Yeah, but no, that sounds really cool because I think some things, like you can look up a lot of stuff, right? You can look up things about regex or look up how to use them. But I think without the repetition and without the forcing yourself to actually go through the motion, without that it's really hard to like learn and pick it up. Rachael: I completely agree with you. I think the repetition, the practice, and learning the paradigm and patterns is huge. Because like even though I didn't know what forward slash t plus was, I knew that forward slash t was going to be some sort of character type. Jeremy: Yeah, it kind of reminds me of, there was, I'm not sure if you've heard of Vim Adventures, but... Rachael: I did! I went through the free levels. I had a streamerversary and my chat had completed a challenge where I had to go learn Vim. So I played a little bit of Vim Adventures. Jeremy: So I guess it didn't sell you. Rachael: Nope, I got Vim Extensions turned on. Jeremy: Oh, you did? Rachael: Yeah, I have the Vim extension turned on in VS Code. So I play with a little bit of sprinkling of Vim in my everyday. Jeremy: It's kind of funny, because I am not a Vim user in the sense that I don't use it as my daily editor or anything like that. But I do the same thing with the extensions in the browser. I like being able to navigate with the keyboard and all that stuff. Rachael: Oh, that is interesting. That's interesting. You have a point like memorizing all of the different patterns when it comes to like Keyboard navigation and things like that is very similar to navigating in Vim. I often describe writing code in Vim is kind of like solving a puzzle in order to write your code So I think that goes back to that Puzzle feeling that puzzle solving feeling we were having we were talking about before. Jeremy: Yeah, I personally can't remember, but whenever I watch somebody who's, really good at using Vim, it is interesting to see them go, oh, yes, I will go to the fifth word, and I will swap out just this part. And it's all just a few keystrokes, yeah. Rachael: Very impressive. Can be done just as well with backspace and, like, keyboard, like, little arrows and everything. But there is something fun about it and it is... Faster-ish. Jeremy: Yeah, I think it's like I guess it depends on the person, but for some people it's like they, they can think and do things at the speed that they type, you know, and so for them, I guess the the flow of, I'm doing stuff super fast using all these shortcuts is probably helpful to them. Rachael: I was talking to someone last night who was saying that they don't even think about it in Vim anymore. They just do it. I'm not there yet. (laughs) Jeremy: Yeah, I'll probably never be there (laughs) But yeah, it is something to see when you've got someone who's really good at it. Rachael: Definitely. I'm kind of glad that my chat encouraged and pressured me to work with Vim. One of the really cool things is when I'm working on stuff, I'll sometimes be like, oh, I want to do this. Is there a command in Vim for that? And then I'll get multiple suggestions or what people think, and ideas for how I can handle things better. Someone recently told me that if you want to delete to the end of a line, you can use capital D. And this whole time I was doing lowercase d dollar sign. Jeremy: Oh, right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah, it's like there's so many things there that, I mean, we should probably talk about your experiences streaming. But that seems like a really great benefit that you can be working through a problem or just doing anything, really. And then there's people who they're watching, and they're like, I know how to do it better. And they'll actually tell you, yeah. Rachael: I think that being open to that is one of the things that's most important as a streamer. A lot of people get into this cycle where they're very defensive and where they feel like they have to be the expert. But one of the things that I love about my chat is the fact that they do come to me with these suggestions. And then I can be open to them, and I can learn from them. And what I can do is I can take those learnings from one person and pass it on to the other people in chat. I can become a conduit for all of us to learn. Jeremy: So when you first decided to start streaming, I guess what inspired you to give it a shot? Like, what were you thinking? Rachael: That's a great question. It's also kind of a painful question. So the company that I was working for, I found out that there were some pay issues with regards to me being a senior, promotion track, things like that. And it wasn't the first time this had happened, right? Like, I often find that I'm swapping careers every two to three years because of some miserable experience at the company. Like you start and the first year is great. It's fantastic. It's awesome. But at the end of it, you're starting to see the skeletons and that two to three years later you're burnt out. And what I found was that every two to three years I was losing everything, right? Like all of my library of examples, the code that I would reference, like that's in their private repo. When it came to my professional network, the co -workers that liked and respected me, we had always communicated through the workplace Slack. So it's really hard to get people to move from the workplace Slack to like Instagram or Twitter or one of those other places if that's not where, if that's not a place where you're already used to talking to them. And then the other thing is your accomplishments get wiped out, right? Like when you start at the next company and you start talking about promotion and things like that, the work that you did at previous companies doesn't matter. They want you to be a team lead at that company. They want you to lead a massive project at that company and that takes time. It takes opportunities and Eventually, I decided that I wanted to exist outside my company. Like I wanted to have a reputation that went beyond that and that's what originally inspired me to stream And it's pretty hard to jump from like oh. I got really frustrated and burnt out at my company to I've got it I'm gonna do some regex crossword on stream, but honestly, that's what it was right was I just wanted to slowly build this reputation in this community outside of of my company and it's been enormously valuable in terms of my confidence, in terms of my opportunities. I've been able to pick up some really interesting jobs and I'm able to leverage some of those experiences in really clear professional ways and it's really driven me to contribute more to open source. I mentioned that I have a lot of people like giving me advice and suggestions and feedback. That's enormously helpful when you're going out there and you're trying to like get started in open source and you're trying to build that confidence and you're trying to build that reputation. I often talk about having a library of examples, right? Like your best code that you reference again and again and again. If I'm streaming on Twitch, everything that I write has to be open source because I'm literally showing it on video, right? So it's really encouraged me to build that out. And now when I'm talking to my coworkers and companies, I can be like, oh, we need to talk about single table inheritance. I did that in Hunter's Keepers. Why don't we go pull that up and we'll take a look at it. Or are we building a Docker image? I did that in Hunter's Keepers and Conf Buddies. Why don't we look at these, compare them, and see if we can get something working here, right? Like I have all of these examples, and I even have examples from other apps as well. Like I added Twitch Clips to 4M. So when I want to look at how to build a liquid tag, because Jekyll uses liquid tags as well. So when I'm looking at that, I can hop to those examples and hop between them, and I'm never going to lose access to them. Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, that's a really good point where I think a lot of people, they do their work at their job and it's never going to be seen by anyone and you can sort of talk about it, but you can't actually show anybody what you did. So it's like, and I think to that point too, is that there's some knowledge that is very domain specific or specific to that company. And so when you're actually doing open source work, it's something that anybody can pick up and use and has utility way beyond just your company. And the whole point of creating this record, that makes a lot of sense too, because if I wanna know if you know how to code, I can just see like, wow, she streams every Thursday. She's clearly she knows what she's doing and you know, you have these also these open source contributions as well So it's it's sort of like it's not this question of if I interview you It's it's not I'm just going off of your word that and I believe what you're saying. But rather it's kind of the proof is all it's all out there. Rachael: Oh, definitely if I were to think about my goals and aspirations for the future I've been doing this for four years still continuing But I think I would like to get to the point where I don't really have to interview. Where an interview is more of a conversation between me and somebody who already knows they want to hire me. Jeremy: Have you already started seeing a difference? Like you've been streaming for about four years I think Rachael: I had a really interesting job for about eight months doing developer relations with New Relic. That was a really interesting experience. And I think it really pushed the boundaries of what I understood myself to be capable of because I was able to spend 40 hours a week really focused on content creation, on blogging, on podcasting, on YouTube videos and things like that. Obviously there was a lot of event organization and things like that as well. But a lot of the stuff that came out of that time is some of my best work. Like I, I'm trying to remember exactly what I did while I was at New Relic, but I saw a clear decrease afterwards. But yeah, I think that was probably close to the tipping point. I don't for sure know if I'm there yet, right? Like you never know if you're at the point where you don't have to interview anymore until you don't have to interview. But the last two jobs, no, I haven't had to interview. Jeremy: So, doing it full -time, how did you feel about that versus having a more traditional lead or software developer role? Rachael: It was definitely a trade-off. So I spent a lot less time coding and a lot more time with content, and I think a little bit of it was me trying to balance the needs and desires of my audience against the needs and desires of my company. For me, and this is probably going to hurt my chances of getting one of those jobs where I don't have to interview in the future, but my community comes first, right? They're the people who are gonna stick with me when I swap between jobs, but that was definitely something that I constantly had to think about is like, how do I balance what my company wants from me with the responsibility that I have to my community? But also like my first talk, your first open source contribution, which was at RubyConf Denver, Like, that was written while I was at New Relic. Like, would I have had the time to work on a talk in addition to the streaming schedule and everything else? Um, for a period of time, I was hosting Ruby Galaxy, which was a virtual meetup. It didn't last very long, and we have deprecated it. Um, I deprecated it before I left the company because I wanted to give it, like, a good, clean ending versus, um, necessarily having it, like, linger on and be a responsibility for other people. but... I don't think I would have done those if I was trying to balance it with my day job. So, I think that that was an incredible experience. That said, I'm very glad it's over. I'm very glad that the only people I'm beholden to are my community now. Jeremy: So, is it the sheer amount that you had to do that was the main issue? Or is it more that that tension between, like you said, serving your audience and your community versus serving your employer? Rachael: Oh, a lot of it was tension. A lot of it was hectic, event management in general. I think if you're like planning and organizing events, that's a very challenging thing to do. And it's something that kind of like goes down to the deadline, right? And it's something where everybody's trying to like scramble and pull things together and keep things organized. And that was something that I don't think I really enjoyed. I like to have everything like nice and planned out and organized and all that sort of stuff, and I don't think that that's Something that happens very often in event management at least not from my experience So these were like in -person events or what types of events like I actually skipped out before the in -person events. They would have been in -person events. We had future stack at New Relic, which is basically like this big gathering where you talk about things you can do with New Relic and that sort of stuff. We all put together talks for that. We put together an entire like. Oh gosh, I'm trying to remember the tool that we use, but it was something similar to gather round where you like interact with people. And there's just a lot that goes into that from marketing to event planning to coordinating with everyone. I'm grateful for my time at New Relic and I made some incredible friends and some incredible connections and I did a lot, but yeah, I'm very glad I'm not in DevRel anymore. I don't, if you ask any DevRel, They'll tell you it's hectic, they'll tell you it's chaotic, and they'll tell you it's a lot of work. Jeremy: Yeah. So it sounds like maybe the streaming and podcasting or recording videos, talks, that part you enjoy, but it's the I'm responsible for planning this event for all these people to, you know. That's the part where you're like, OK, maybe not for me. Rachael: Yeah, kind of. I describe myself as like a content creator because I like to just like dabble and make things, right? Like I like to think about like, what is the best possible way to craft this tweet or this post or like to sit there and be like, okay, how can I structure this blog post to really communicate what I want people to understand? When it comes to my streams, what I actually do is I start with the hero's journey as a concept. So every single stream, we start with an issue in the normal world, right? And then what we do is we get drawn into the chaos realm as we're like debugging and trying to build things and going Back and forth and there's code flying everywhere and the tests are red and then they're green and then they're red and then they're green and then finally at the end we come back to the normal world as we create this PR and, Submit it neither merge it or wait for maintainer feedback. And for me that Story arc is really key and I like I'm a little bit of an artist. I like the artistry of it. I like the artistry of the code, and I like the artistry of creating the content. I think I've had guests on the show before, and sometimes it's hard to explain to them, like, no, no, no, this is a code show. We can write code, and that's great, but that's not what it's about. It's not just about the end product. It's about bringing people along with us on the journey. And sometimes it's been three hours, and I'm not doing a great job of bringing people along on the journey so like you know I'm tooting my own horn a little bit here but like that is important to me. Jeremy: So when you're working through a problem, When you're doing it on stream versus you're doing it by yourself, what are the key differences in how you approach the problem or how you work through it? Rachael: I think it's largely the same. It's like almost exactly the same. What I always do is, when I'm on stream, I pause, I describe the problem, I build a test for it, and then I start working on trying to fix what's wrong. I'm a huge fan of test -driven development. The way I see it, you want that bug to be reproducible, and a test gives you the easiest way to reproduce it. For me, it's about being easy as much as it is about it being the right way or not. But yeah, I would say that I approach it largely in the same way. I was in the content creator open space a little bit earlier, and I had to give them a bit of a confession. There is one small difference when I'm doing something on stream versus when I'm doing something alone. Sometimes, I have a lot of incredible senior staff, smart, incredible people in my chat. I'll describe the problem in vivid detail, and then I'll take my time writing the test, and by the time I'm done writing the test, somebody will have figured out what the problem is, and talk back to me about it. I very rarely do that. It's more often when it's an ops or an infrastructure or something like that. A great example of this is like the other day I was having an issue, I mentioned the Vim extensions. If I do command P on the code section, Vim extensions was capturing that, and so it wasn't opening the file. So one of my chatters was like, oh, you know, you can fix that if you Google it. I was like, oh, I don't know. I mean, I could Google it, but it will take so long and distract from the stream. Literally less than 15 minutes later a chatter had replied with like, here's exactly what to add to your VS Code extension, and I knew that was gonna happen. So that's my little secret confession. That's the only difference when I'm debugging things on stream is sometimes I'll let chat do it for me. Jeremy: Yeah, that's a superpower right there. Rachael: It is, and I think that happens because I am open to feedback and I want people to engage with me and I support that and encourage that in my community. I think a lot of people sometimes get defensive when it comes to code, right? Like when it comes to the languages or the frameworks that we use, right? There's a little bit of insecurity because you dive so deep and you gain so much knowledge that you're kind of scared that there might be something that's just as good because it means you might not have made the right decision. And I think that affects us when it comes to code reviews. I think it affects us when we're like writing in public. And I think, yeah, and I think it affects a lot of people when they're streaming, where they're like, if I'm not the smartest person in the room, and why am I the one with a camera and a microphone? But I try to set that aside and be like, we're all learning here. Jeremy: And when people give that feedback, and it's good feedback, I think it's really helpful when people are really respectful about it and kind about it. Have you had any issues like having to moderate that or make sure it stays positive in the context of the stream? Rachael: I have had moderation issues before, right? Like, I'm a woman on the internet, I'm going to have moderation issues. But for me, when it comes to feedback and suggestions, I try to be generous with my interpretation and my understanding of what they're going with. Like people pop in and they'll say things like, Ruby is dead, Rails is dead. And I have commands for that to like remind them, no, actually Twitch is a Rails app. So like, no, it's definitely not dead. You just used it to send a message. But like, I try to be understanding of where people are coming from and to meet them where they are, even if they're not being the most respectful. And I think what I've actually noticed is that when I do that, their tone tends to change. So I have two honorary trolls in my chat, Kego and John Sugar, and they show up and they troll me pretty frequently. But I think that that openness, that honesty, like that conversation back and forth it tends to defuse any sort of aggressive tension or anything. Jeremy: Yeah, and it's probably partly a function of how you respond, and then maybe the vibe of your stream in general probably brings people that are. Rachael: No, I definitely agree. I think so. Jeremy: Yeah. Rachael: It's the energy, you get a lot of the energy that you put out. Jeremy: And you've been doing this for about four years, and I'm having trouble picturing what it's even like, you know, you've never done a stream and you decide I'm gonna turn on the camera and I'm gonna code live and, you know, like, what was kind of going through your mind? How did you prepare? And like, what did, like, what was that like? Rachael: Thank you so much. That's a great question. So, actually, I started with Regex Crossword because it was structured, right? Like, I didn't necessarily know what I wanted to do and what I wanted to work on, but with Regex Crossword, you have a problem and you're solving it. It felt very structured and like a very controlled environment, and that gave me the confidence to get comfortable with, like, I'm here, I have a moderator, right? Like we're talking back and forth, I'm interacting with chatters, and that allowed me to kind of build up some skills. I'm actually a big fan of Hacktoberfest. I know a lot of people don't like it. I know a lot of people are like, oh, there are all these terrible spam PRs that show up during Hacktoberfest and open source repositories. But I'm a really big fan because I've always used it to push my boundaries, right? Like every single year, I've tried to take a new approach on it. So the first year that I did it, I decided that what I wanted to do to push my boundaries was to actually work on an application. So this one was called Hunter's Keepers. It was an app for managing characters in Monster of the Week and it was a Reels app because that's what I do professionally and that's what I like to work on. So I started just building that for Hacktoberfest and people loved it. It got a ton of engagement, way more than Regex Crossword and a little bit, like those open source streams continue to do better than the programming games, but I love the programming games so much that I don't wanna lose them, but that's where it kind of started, right? Was me sitting there and saying like, oh, I wanna work on these Rails apps. The Hacktoberfest after that one, And I was like, OK, I worked on my own app in the open, and I've been doing that for basically a year. I want to work on somebody else's app. So I pushed myself to contribute to four different open source repositories. One of the ones I pushed myself to work on was 4M. They did not have Twitch clips as embeds. They had YouTube videos and everything else. And I looked into how to do it, and I found out how liquids tags work, and I had a ton of other examples. I feel like extensions like that are really great contributions to open source because it's an easy way with a ton of examples that you can provide value to the project, and it's the sort of thing where, like, if you need it, other people probably need it as well. So I went and I worked on that, and I made some Twitch clips. And that was like one of my first like external open source project contributions. And that kind of snowballed, right? Because I now knew how to make a liquid tag. So when I started working on my Jekyll site, and I found out that they had liquid tags that were wrapped in gems, I used that as an opportunity to learn how to build a gem. And like how to create a gem that's wrapped around a liquid tag. And that exists now and is a thing that I've done. And so it's all of these little changes and moments that have stacked on top of each other, right? Like it's me going in and saying, OK, today I'd like to customize my alerts. Or like, today I'd like to buy a better microphone and set it up and do these changes. It's not something that changed all at once, right? It's just this small putting in the time day by day, improving. I say like the content gears are always grinding. You always need something new to do, right? And that's basically how my stream has gone for the last four years, is I'm just always looking for something new to do. We haven't talked about this yet, but I'm a voice actress in the programming video game, One Dreamer. And I actually collaborated with the creator of another one, Compressor, who like reached out to me about that Steam key. But the reason that I was able to talk to these people and I was able to reach out to them is rooted in Regex Crossword, right? Cause I finished Regex Crossword and Thursday night was like my programming game stream. And I loved them, so I kept doing them. And I kept picking up new games to play, and I kept exploring new things. So at the end of it, I ended up in this place where I had this like backlog in knowledge and history around programming games. So when Compressor was developed, I think he's like the creator, Charlie Bridge is like a VP at Arm or something. And okay, I should back up a little bit. Compressor is this game where you build CPUs with Steam. So it's like Steam Punk, like, electrical engineering components. Ah, it's so much fun. And like, the characters are all cool, because it's like you're talking to Nikola Tesla, and like Charles Babbage, and Ada Lovelace, and all this sort of stuff. It's just super fun. But the reason he reached out to me was because of that reputation, that backlog, that feedback. Like, when you think about how you became a developer, right, it's day by day, right? when you develop your experience. There's a moment where you look back and you're like, I just have all of these tools in my toolkit. I have all of these experiences. I've done all these things, and they just stack to become something meaningful. And that's kind of how it's gone with my stream, is just every single day I was trying to push, do something new. Well, not every day. Sometimes I have a lazy day, but like, but like I am continuously trying to find new ground to tread. Jeremy: Yeah, I mean that's really awesome thinking about how it went from streaming you solving these regex crosswords to all the way to ending up in one of these games that you play. Yeah, that's pretty pretty cool. Rachael: By the way, that is my absolute favorite game. So the whole reason that I'm in the game is because I played the demo on stream. Jeremy: Oh, nice. Rachael: And I loved it. Like I immediately was like, I'm going to go join the creators discord. This is going to be my game of the year. I can't wait to like make a video on this game. What's really cool about this one is that it uses programming as a mechanic and the story is the real driver. It's got this emotional impact and story. The colors are gorgeous and the way you interact with the world, like it is a genuine puzzle game where the puzzles are small, little, simple programming puzzles. And not like I walk up to this and like I solve a puzzle and the door opens. No, it's like you're interacting with different components in the world and wiring them together in order to get the code working. The whole premise is that there's an indie game developer who's gone through this really traumatic experience with his game, and now he's got the broken game, and he's trying to fix it in time for a really important game demo. I think it's like, it's like Vig something. Video game indie gaming. But what happened is I started following the creator, and I was super interested in them. And then he actually reached out to me about like the Steve workshop and then he was looking for people to voice act and I was like me please yes so yeah that's how I got involved with it yeah that's awesome it's like everything came full circle I guess it's like where you started and yeah no absolutely it's amazing. Jeremy: And so what was that experience like the voice acting bit? I'm assuming you didn't have professional experience with that before. Rachael: No, no, no, no. I had to do a lot of research into like how to voice act. My original ones were tossed out. I just, OK, so there's one line in it. This is going to this is so embarrassing. I can't believe I'm saying this on a podcast. There's one line that's like, it's a beautiful day to code. It's like a, because I'm an NPC, right? So like you can keep interacting with me and one of the like cycling ones is like, it's a beautiful day to code. Well, I tried to deliver it wistfully. Like I was staring out a window and I was like, it's a beautiful day to code. And every single person who heard it told me that it sounded like somewhat sensual, sexy. And I was dying because I had just sent this to this like indie game developer that like I appreciated and he replies back and he's like, I'm not sure if there was an audio issue with some of these, but could you like rerecord some of these? So I was very inexperienced. I did a lot of practicing, a lot of vocal exercises, but I think that it turned out well. Jeremy: That's awesome. So you kind of just kept trying and sending samples, or did they have anybody like try and coach you? Rachael: No, I just kept sending samples. I did watch some YouTube videos from like real voice actors. To try and like figure out what the vocal exercises were. One of the things that I did at first was I sent him like one audio, like the best one in my opinion. And he replied back being like, no, just record this like 10, 20 times. Send it to me and I'll chop the one I want. Jeremy: So the, anytime you did that, the one they picked, was it ever the one you thought was the best one? Rachael: Oh gosh, I don't think I actually like, Wow, I don't think I've gone back over the recordings to figure out which one I thought was the best one. Or like checked which one he picked out of the ones that I recorded. Oh, that's interesting. I'm going to have to do that after this. Jeremy: You're going to listen to all the, it's a beautiful day to code. Rachael: The final version is like a nice, neutral like, it's a beautiful day to code. One of the really cool things about that, though, is my character actually triggers the end of game scene, which is really fun. You know how you get a little hint that's like, oh, this is where the end of the game is, my character gets to do that. Jeremy: That's a big responsibility. Rachael: It is. I was so excited when I found out. Jeremy: That's awesome. Cool. Well, I think that's probably a good place to wrap it up on. But is there anything else you want to mention, or any games you want to recommend? Rachael: Oh, I think I mentioned all of them. I think if you look at Code Romantic, AXA Punks, Bitburner, is an idle JavaScript game that can be played in the browser where you write the custom files and build it and you're going off and hacking servers and stuff like that. It's a little light on story. One Dreamer, yeah. I think if you look at those four to five games, you will find one you like. Oh, it's 7 Billion Humans. Jeremy: Oh, right, yeah. Rachael: I haven't written the blog post yet, but that's my five programming video games that you should try if you've never done one before. 7 million humans is on mobile, so if you've got a long flight back from RubyConf, it might be a great choice. Jeremy: Oh, there you go. Rachael: Yeah. Other than that, it can be found at chael.codes, chael.codes/links for the socials, chael.codes/about for more information about me. And yeah, thank you so much for having me. This has been so much fun. Jeremy: Awesome. Well, Rachel, thank you so much for taking the time. Rachael: Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Zingaro and Dr. Leo Porter are co-authors of the book Learn AI-Assisted Python Programming. Leo will teach an introductory computer science course this quarter at UCSD using this book. We discuss how tools like GitHub Copilot let people new to programming focus on breaking down problems instead of language syntax. Dr. Zingaro is an Associate Professor of Computer Science at University of Toronto Mississauga and Dr. Porter is an Associate Professor at University of California San Diego. This episode was originally posted on Software Engineering Radio. Topics covered: Making programming more accessible Teaching problem decomposition instead of language syntax The importance of reading and testing untrusted generated code The rise of throwaway or one-off code Concerns about relying on commercial tools Rethinking how to assess students Related Links Learn AI-Assisted Python Programming Leo Porter Daniel Zingaro GitHub Copilot Transcript You can help edit this transcript on GitHub. Note the timestamps and audio for this transcript will not completely match. Intro [00:00:00] Jeremy: Today I'm talking to Dr. Leo Porter. He's an associate teaching professor of computer science at the University of California San Diego, and he co-founded the computing education research laboratory there. I'm also joined by Dr. Daniel Zingaro who is an associate teaching professor of computer science at the University of Toronto. And he's also the author of the book, learn to Code by Solving Problems and the Book, Algorithmic Thinking. They are co-authors of the book, learn AI Assisted Python programming. Leo and Dan, welcome to Software Engineering Radio. [00:00:37] Leo: Thank you for having us, Jeremy. I really appreciate your podcast, so thanks. Great to be here. [00:00:41] Dan: Thanks Jeremy. Writing a book for Leo's CS1 class [00:00:43] Jeremy: The first thing we could start with is, is why this book? And, and why now? How did you decide on like, okay, this is the thing we need to do now. [00:00:51] Leo: So, uh, this is Dan. Uh, so Dan, um, like really early when LLMs first kind of were coming out and being seen on the scene for programming, uh, he started playing with them, uh, for programming projects. And I think Dan really quickly realized that they'd had this, a big impact on how we teach programming. so he reached out to me, uh, and said, I really need to give em a try. And, uh, after I played with them for a little while, I had the exact same realization that this is gonna change, uh, how we teach programming, uh, in a pretty dramatic way. So having realized that, having realized that we had to change our, uh, introductory CS1 courses, we knew we needed to do that, but in order to teach that class, we'd have to have a book that we could assign our students that that would go along with the class. And so we knew we had to change the class, but we also knew we had to have a book for it. And given the, the timeline to write books, we started in the book first. Um, and so that's how it got started. LLMs for Syntax, Humans for breaking down problems [00:01:45] Dan: I guess we figured out that our course had to change first, before we knew exactly, um, how it had to change. One thing we, um, learned early on was that the kinds of assignments we give in our introductory courses, they're just solved by, by these tools like ChatGPT and copilot. So, uh, we knew something had to change, and then it is just a matter of figuring out what. And so we spent, um, quite a bit of time with these tools and we started to realize that what's gonna change is the skills that our students need to learn, uh, to be effective using these tools. So like b before these tools, we would spend a lot of time teaching syntax. Um, and students struggle quite a bit with learning syntax, which I mean, it's very, it's, it's very frustrating, right? Cuz you can't even do anything until you get the syntax right? And you're getting all these errors like missing colons and, you know, mismatched braces and stuff like that. Uh, so it's actually good, that, the LLMs are doing the syntax for the students. But you know, just because that skill's, uh, not needed as much, uh, doesn't mean that there aren't still skills for students to learn. So instead of syntax, other things become more important. Uh, so for example, uh, Leo and I, realize that reading code is gonna be extremely important even more so than before. I think if, if that, if that's even possible. Uh, and that's because sometimes you're gonna get back code that just doesn't work. And so we realized that students are gonna need to be able to read, the response that they get to see if the code looks reasonable, or not, right? And then if the code, uh, I is unreasonable, then they need to read more code, uh, and look at other solutions, right, that they get from the, uh, LLM. Uh, there are other, uh, things they can do as well, like messing around with the prompt and so on. But they're gonna need to be able to read code, uh, throughout the process. And then, so we just kind of kept on using these tools and documenting the skills that students are gonna need. And we just kinda realized that all the skills students are gonna need are skills we would want to teach anyway. So like, uh, one more example is testing, right? So, students may now not have, uh, an understanding of every last detail of, you know, the Python language like they would before. And so then that makes testing even more important, right? Than it was they need to verify that the code they're getting is correct. And so they have to be very good at writing test cases. and, and, you know, similar, similar for debugging, we need our students to have strong debugging skills, again, even potentially stronger than before, right? Because if the code isn't working, they need to first determine what the code is doing to be able to fix it. And then I guess one more I'll mention is problem decomposition. And this is a big one. I think this is gonna come up a couple times probably in our talk today, but LLMs struggle when you give them tasks that are too large and students need to know how to break problems down into small components so that, that, LLM can solve each one and, you know, have a good chance of getting it right. [00:04:56] Leo: Yeah, I, I think, um, kind of to, to piggyback off of that, you, you may be hearing these skills and saying, oh, these are absolutely essential skills. Every software engineer should know, uh, these are being taught right now. Right? Um, and the answer is not really, like these aren't core topics in a lot of introductory CS classes because so much time is spent on syntax. And so fairly early on when we kind of realized these skills would be so essential, Uh, we got really excited because these are skills we want to teach in our classes, and the LLMs are now giving us the ability to do that more. [00:05:27] Dan: Mm-hmm. [00:05:28] Jeremy: I think that's interesting about the syntax comment because you were saying how reading is gonna be more important than ever because you have LLM generating the code. Um, and you need to understand that code that's being generated and understand that it does what it, uh, you think it does. And so I wonder if when you say you spend less time on syntax, is it because you feel like they're gonna generate this code and they're sort of organically gonna pick up syntax that way versus having to focus on it at the start? I'm just trying to picture what you see changing there. [00:06:05] Dan: Yeah, Jeremy. So, uh, I, I was, I guess speaking specifically about syntax errors, which don't generally happen when you're using LLMs, and I also agree with you, you need to know what the code is doing, but, um, you can do that without worrying about each specific piece of syntax. Like, um, you're gonna need to know what the keywords do for sure, but, missing, you know, brackets and colons and, uh, oh, there needs to be like a blank line here. indentation, uh, a lot of this kind of thing. Is done for the most part, correctly by the LLMs. So yeah, I agree with you. You need to be able to identify the structures. So in our, in our book actually, Leo and I have, um, a couple of chapters on reading code and, I don't think we ever break breakdown, a line of code into its individual tokens. We do talk about the main structures, like ifs and loops and functions and all that. but compared to other books, I, I think or other, uh, other ways of teaching where you would focus on the micro level, we try to focus on the line level now, cuz we want our students to be able to grasp what each line is doing, I guess more than each token. [00:07:27] Leo: Yeah, maybe to, to add to that a bit, it's almost, uh, if you think about the advent of block-based languages, it was to make sure that the, essentially the, the author can't make syntax mistakes, right? Is the whole purpose of kind of block-based languages. And they're, they're huge for introductory programming, especially in like K through 12. in a sense, LLMs do this because they'd never give you back wrong syntax, or they almost, almost never give you back wrong syntax. And so it takes away that kind of cognitive burden of making sure you handle the, the token level. as uh Dan was saying LLM generated code needs test cases to catch logical errors [00:08:00] Jeremy: I, I'm curious, so you said the syntax is correct, but what are the, the typical mistakes you see coming back from these LLMs? Is it a, a logical mistake or is it ever something that. Actually doesn't compile. I'm, I'm kind of curious what your experience has been. [00:08:19] Leo: I think the, uh, more common errors that we've been seeing are logical. So it misinterprets the prompt that you're giving it. It essentially tries to solve a problem that's different than what you're trying to solve. It may have bugs in it, so it is in fact trying to solve the right problem, but it, it's off by one, um, is maybe replicating some mistake that it found in, in the large code base. And so most mistakes are gonna be you need to write test cases, run it. That mistake is then gonna show up when the test cases catch it, and then you'll have to try to fix it. if the students can read the code, uh, if we train them well to read the code, often you'll look at the response. And if the response is just not even trying to solve the right problem, you can usually pick that up pretty quick. Uh, and I think, I think the students will be learn to do that and then they can just say, okay, this is clearly not the right answer. And, and use the different tools in say vscode to find another answer, and then pick one that's right or change their prompt to get a response that's right. Go through that whole flow. But then some point or other it will give an answer that looks right. And then I think all of us as software engineers know that even the code looks right, it may not be. And so then they have to actually write the test cases, get some level of confidence that's actually working right before they'll know. And so sometimes, sometimes, you know, really quick is that it's just clearly wrong at solving the wrong problem. And sometimes it looks right, but it actually has some bugs that need to be fixed. [00:09:49] Dan: I guess one thing that struck me is how much a change in the prompt can, can matter. Uh, Leo, you know, um, we've, we've seen this over and over again where we'll write a prompt. It seems fine to us. And then we'll realize, oh, there are actually two different ways of interpreting this. and, uh, the ambiguity of, of English strikes again, right? And so it's just amazing to me how clarifying the prompts, how many times that fixes the code. Not always. We've definitely have examples where that's not the case, but, um, more, more often than not, in my experience, changing the prompt, uh, appropriately has a bigger than, than, um, anticipated effect on the, on the code. It's amazing. [00:10:36] Leo: And for thinking of the prompt, uh, in terms of like doc strings for functions, uh, adding the test cases certainly help. Um, sometimes it is, surprising sometimes that you can add the test cases to the prompt and it'll still give you back code that does not actually pass that test case because it, vscode and copilot doesn't actually run the code that comes back from the LLM. Uh, but I do find the test cases do tend to help with the quality response you get back. [00:11:01] Jeremy: As a part of your prompt, you're asking it to implement some functionality, and you're also asking it to write these tests for that same functionality? [00:11:11] Leo: Oh no, sorry. I, I, it's more the, um, doc test kind of format. So it, it, um, you're writing, let's say you, you've written your function signature and then you have the description of the function in a doc string. And then at towards the end of the doc string, I'm articulating the test cases that I intend to use. Um, and the articulating the test cases that I intend to use helps it come with a better prompt. Um, I haven't found it to be great at writing test cases. I haven't spent a ton of time with this, but the time that I have spent, it tends to want to do almost like a brute force search of all possible inputs, uh, as opposed to doing, okay, well here's a couple common. Here are the edge cases. Now I can feel fairly good about it. It doesn't seem to have that, um, intuition yet. [00:11:55] Jeremy: [00:11:55] Leo: For the most part, we're writing the test cases our ourselves, and we're gonna be teaching the students how to write the test cases themselves [00:12:01] Dan: Yeah, Yeah. So Leo and I have actually made a conscious decision to have students write test cases from scratch. Even though you could play around with the LLM and have it, you know, try to generate test cases, whether it's flawed or not, we still want students to do this from scratch. We think that writing test cases is a skill we want our students to have. [00:12:23] Jeremy: Sometimes what these models will generate, like you were saying, has logical errors. And hopefully if you're writing the test cases, you've put some thought into 'em, and your test cases are actually checking the correct behavior. So then you have the LLM generate the implementation. It's running against tests where you know what the correct answer should be. And so if it generates something that's incorrect, you've, you've kind of caught it. You're not totally relying on it. Telling you everything is, is good, you know? Um, It's confidence in something that's like you personally can't see. It's just what the machine gave you. [00:13:05] Dan: Maybe it takes away one layer of uncertainty too, Jeremy, right? Like, so the code could be wrong, right? And then if it generates test cases, okay, the test cases could be wrong too. And maybe you get unlucky and two wrongs make a right and then your test cases pass for the wrong reason. So yeah, we really wanna hone this skill in our students. And, and like Leo said earlier, these intro courses used to be so full of low level syntax concerns that we, we didn't do testing properly. I mean, you know, we all try to cover testing, but I think we're gonna be able to cover it a lot more, detailed now. LLMs could encourage students to test more since their output is untrusted [00:13:41] Leo: And I, I think we're enthusiastic about, uh, how students will approach testing when you're working with the LLM is what we. This is fairly anecdotal, but uh, when they interact with us talking about testing, often students aren't testing their code because they wrote it. And so of course it's Right. Right. This is like this really famous, uh, kind of bug in human thinking, right? Is that if you write it, of course the computer's gonna interpret what you're saying, right? Um, and so students tend to trust their code in a way that professional software engineers never would. and I think because it's coming from this third party that you know is wrong, it's coming from the LLM that can, that can often make mistakes. I think they're gonna be more inclined to actually engage in those testing practices. Uh, kind of knowing about the fallibility of the LLM, [00:14:27] Jeremy: You're shifting the order. I mean, there is test driven development that some people practice, but I feel like probably what's most common is you write the implementation yourself and then, then you'll go and see like, oh, did this thing I, I wrote. Did it do what I thought it should do? Um, whereas this is kind of flipping it, where it's the large language model is gonna write my code, so I'm just gonna start with the test and then I'll ask it to, to write me the code. And maybe that will kind of make test driven development be the default. [00:15:02] Leo: So yeah, I, I, I think that students may wanna engage more in kind of test driven development because they wanna think more about, uh, what exactly should this function be doing? Uh, how should behave, what kind of inputs and output should it expect? And then it can kind of write the prompt to co-pilot or whatever LLM is using, uh, to express those inputs and outputs. Well, they're more apt to get good answer from the LLM and they've kind already got their test cases worked out as well, so they can immediately just go right into the testing agency if the prompt came back right. Using LLMs at the function level instead of a broader scope [00:15:35] Jeremy: And you mentioned writing a prompt to implement a specific function. Have you found that they work well at the function level? But if you try to ask it to build something more broad, that that's kind of when it has problems? [00:15:53] Dan: So, I think in general, LLMs do work best at the function level. We have tried to get it to generate bigger apps, collections of functions, and it can work, but sometimes it does, uh, it does do worse. But also we want students to do the problem decomposition for themselves and break up the problem into individual functions. Even though maybe the LLM could work, uh, with, uh, bigger chunks of code, we want students to do it. And one reason is so that they can customize what they get from the LLM. So, in the book, we have a bunch of examples where you could probably just throw it at the LLM and get an answer and, you know, eventually get it to work. But I think at that point, making changes to it might be trickier than it would be if you knew, uh, the architecture of what you were, what you were building. So in the book, we have a bunch of top-down design diagrams, and we want students to understand what they're building at that level, like at the function level instead of, like we said earlier, instead of like at the token level or the line level. Potential issues with outsourcing high level design to an LLM [00:17:03] Jeremy: And so like in this example, you're thinking more from a, a learning perspective. You want the student to look at the big picture, figure out, okay, what are all the different functions or parts of my application? Break that down and then feed those individually. To, um, these large language models. I, I'm wondering from like, let's say you're a, a professional software engineer and your interest is more in I want to make the thing and less so, in I want to learn how to make the thing. in that case, do you feel like you could feel confident in, in giving the large language model a larger piece of the design, or do you still feel like it's good to have that overall structure done by the, the developer and then just be very targeted about how you use the large language model? [00:18:03] Leo: I think that's a tricky question because we haven't worked with these tools heavily in a professional programming setting. I think often when we're thinking about large design of software, you're gonna be working on teams, talking with other members of the team about the interfaces and things like that. And so I'd be pretty hesitant to to outsource that, that thinking to the, the l lm cuz you, the communication between the teams still has to happen. Uh, even if it weren't for that. Um, I kinda think of it as a probabilities. So essentially whenever you ask co copilot or any of these LMS to, to do a task, the more it has to right, get the kind of more likely it's gonna make a mistake. Um, and so, uh, that's kind of why I like the functional level. It seems like I. Partially because it's not that much code that tends to write. Um, so you help to avoid kinda the probabilistic problem, but also because it's learned on a huge code base that has lots and lots of functions that have been implemented. It tends to do well at that, that solving the function kind of task. [00:19:10] Jeremy: Yeah. And I, I think the way you put it as outsourcing that designer, that decision is, is interesting because yeah, if you are working on a team and whether it's in code review or just in a discussion, often people will ask, well, well, why did you do it this way? Or Why, why is this the, you know, the good way to design it? And if you kind of handed that off to an l l m, maybe your answer is, I don't know. It's just what it it told me, which (laughs) [00:19:39] Dan: Yeah. [00:19:42] Leo: That isn't an answer I want to u use talking to my boss. Right. Well the chat GPT told me I should have it this way. That doesn't seem like a good answer. Choosing GitHub Copilot for CS1 [00:19:50] Jeremy: I think we, we've kind of been talking in more a general sense of working with LLMs and you've mentioned how you're gonna be teaching introductory computer science courses this coming, quarter or semester. And so when you teach these classes, what tools are you gonna recommend your students use? And yeah, maybe you could go into that a bit. [00:20:13] Leo: Absolutely. So we're gonna be recommending, um, At least, at least for my class, I'm gonna be recommending that they use, uh, vs code with copilot. Um, I just like the integration of the IDE with the, uh, interactions with the LLM uh, I think it avoids just a whole bunch of copy pasting from another interface into your IDE to then, uh, run it. I think it also reduces the barrier of them kinda immediately getting the code and then testing it right there in the environment. I'm sure any of the other tools would work, it's just, that seems to have worked well for us, uh, when we were writing the book. And that's, that's actually the technique we recommend in the book as well. Um, so that would be the primary tool for the students writing the code. In addition to having them using copilot with, uh, in the IDE for a lot of the code generation, depending on where things are at with copilot x, um, which is right now, um, available through wait list. Uh, if that's, that's available publicly, I think we're gonna be recommending that because it has a copilot chat feature, uh, which can be really nice to interact with. And, uh, the main use that, that we're gonna be encouraging students to use, whether it be co-pilot chat or a ChatGPT is in just a conversation with the LLM about, particularly modules and libraries. So if you are diving into, merging PDFs, which, uh, Dan did a great job in one of the chapters in our book talking about, if you wanna dive into that, well, what libraries should we be using in Python for that. Uh, and we found that the LLMs do a really good job at this, of actually saying, here are the different libraries you could use. Here are the pros and cons of them. These are the ones that, uh, need to be actually have additional install done. Or these ones that come in with, vanilla Python. they're actually really good at kind of giving you the what you should use for the various libraries. Um, and so that's, that's one other way that we were gonna be encouraging the students to use the LLM. Types of questions to ask the LLM [00:22:07] Dan: Yeah. So whenever the students or the junior programmer, doesn't know how or doesn't think they can, uh, do something in base Python, we have them interact with the chat and, and ask. So another example that comes to mind from the book is we have a chapter writing some games. And so for most games, including the two that, uh, we've got in the book, you need to be able to generate random numbers, right? So how do you do that? And so in the past you would've used a search engine stack overflow or something, and you would've found, some sample code and you would've pasted it in to your file and made variable name changes and things like that. And so what we do now is we ask chat, okay, I need to generate some random numbers. How do I do it? And then it will come back to you with a few options, and then you can systematically work through those options if you like. Uh, and you can ask, okay, is this one built into Python or not? And then it will tell you, oh, this one's not. We don't need to memorize API docs [00:23:11] Dan: And you say, oh, well, okay, so like, how do I install this? And then no, does it work on all OSS or just Windows? Right? So, uh, we guide the reader through these questions that you could have, uh, to help you make a decision. Um, and I think what I like the most about this is not having to learn. APIs, like yet another api. Like I don't, I don't think I have room, you know, in my, like, brain for any more APIs. And, and what's cool is I, I've forgotten like every API that, uh, we've used in the book. So we have like examples of emerging PDFs and, uh, removing duplicate images from directories, uh, from like people's phones, and, and stuff like that. And I don't know, I don't know which library it's using. Uh, and I'm, I'm totally okay with that, right? Like I just, I, I wanted to get the job done. I wanted to write a tool, and the tool got written and it used some sort of library and it worked great. And I didn't have to look through the documentation for that library and figure out like, which functions do I have to call and things like that. So, I, I know it, it can be fun, you know, it could be fun to really learn an API well, but a lot of people, they don't want to program for programming sake. Like, they just wanna get work done, right? So, you know, while I, I, I fully admit to, enjoying programming just for the sake of programming. I do a lot of competitive programming problems just for fun. You know, it's like Sunday morning and it's like, Hey, yeah, I got like an hour and I got an hour to work on something. Let me work on this little competitive programming problem. But, uh, a lot of people, they're not motivated by that. They're motivated by consequences of code. And this is one thing about LLMs that I'm very excited about, is you can just, make a lot more progress, without having to learn what these, people may believe is just useless knowledge, right? Like, does it really matter how I should invoke this api Right, to merge PDF files? I mean, the answer for many people is no. Like, they just want the result to happen. And I love how we can kinda match what they, uh, deem important, right? With the LLMs, it's like a new level of abstraction, for for many people. LLMs make building software possible for more people [00:25:28] Leo: There's a couple of audiences that come to our introductory classes, and what Dan's talking about here is one of the things I'm most excited about with this, and that's the students who come and take just one. Programming class. I know it's probably a different audience than, uh, a lot of the people listening right now. Um, but the people who just take one programming class, it's required for, for their major. They, I just wanted to explore it a little bit, but they, they don't go into this as a, as a career. I think a lot of those students right now, uh, if you ask them a year later to program something, do any of these tasks that we're talking about right now, I doubt they're able to, even if they did really well in that class. Uh, and that's really disappointing, right? If they've taken a programming class, they should be able to, to do something with that, a year or even five years later. And I really believe that if you teach them the skills of interacting with these LLMs, they'll be able to do these tasks later. They'll be able to come back and go, you know, I don't remember any of the Python syntax. I don't remember, uh, even how to get started with this. But you know what, I'm just gonna ask, uh, copilot, how do, how do I go about merging these PDFs, having this directory? And then, uh, the copilot chat comes back and says, oh, you might use this and that. And then they go, oh, I remember, I remember how to, how to write these functions. And I just said, you have to go over a prompt. I think they could really do it. And that, that's a bit of a game changer, right? That means a larger portion of our society will be able to, uh, write code and using a useful way. And I'm just really excited about that. I think it's gonna be really nice, uh, after the changes happen. More people might stick with Computer Science [00:26:58] Jeremy: I can totally see in the context of someone who's, not seeing it as a career, or someone who is like, hasn't done it in a while. It could be. These tools can be incredibly useful, right? Or it can even get you interested in this field at all, right? Like a lot of people, they, they struggle through the syntax and then they decide like, oh, this is not for me. Even though like they had something really cool they wanted to build and, and maybe these kind of tools can, can get them over that hump. [00:27:31] Leo: Exactly. I think there's a population of students, um, and it varies a bit by demographics, who come to computer science, with really the best motives in mind, right? They wanna make their goals in their life are to make the world a better place, and they want to achieve those goals. And if you spend the first three quarters or three semesters working with them and all they're seeing is syntax and they're not actually solving anything meaningful, um, it starts to create this disconnect of what their goals are for their life and what they think the goals of are, are career are. Of course as, as, as a computer science, I wanna say, stick it out. You know, if you, if you go into the fourth, fifth class, you'll start seeing how these are really useful tools that can make society a better place. But it'd be really nice to front load that and have them solving useful problems much earlier and seeing that, uh, computer science, uh, can be used in really nice ways. Efficency can be taught later [00:28:26] Jeremy: And, and so within the, the context of. People who are studying computer science will eventually, who may become professional software developers, things like that. Something more long term where it becomes more of a craft, the, the code that comes back from these large language models. Sometimes it could be something that's like not maybe the most easy to read or it may be doing something inefficiently. And I'm wondering from your perspective how users of these tools should, should think about that and, and recognize when that's a problem. [00:29:06] Dan: We in, in, in the first couple of courses, typically in the CS program, um, we don't spend much time on efficiency. the reason is that there's just so much to learn early on, and, um, we worry about overwhelming people with, know, too much, for them to, to process it at once. And we don't wanna prevent students from becoming interested, by. Giving them all of these requirements early on. So typically we, you know, we push efficiency, down the, down the road into like a data structures course, for example. But your question points to another reason why, we've decided to teach some of the skills we teach early on. So if, if a student, you know, came up to Leo or, or me and said, Hey, you know, like I wanna generate efficient code, how do I do it? My answer would, would be, so like, get, get familiar with programming first, but you are learning the skills necessary where you'll be able to look at code later because you know how to read it still, right? It's not, uh, something that you don't understand. You're gonna, you're gonna know it. We're gonna spend lots of time on code reading, and so later I think we can just teach efficiency the way we always did. Um, so, you know, doing, uh, time complexity analysis on, on the code and they're still gonna understand what the code is doing. So, um, I, I, I don't think this is going to, this is going to change much in, in the earliest courses. LLMs can expose students to different types of code [00:30:35] Leo: To the, to the point about code readability, I might add that, uh, certainly they're gonna get back some, some code that's maybe not the best style and it may not be as readable. Uh, but what's kinda interesting is that students aren't exposed to a lot of different styles kind of in our existing courses, right? They, they see the code that they write and they see the code that the professor writes and gives them, and there's not much else. And so, I mean, we're gonna need data and we're gonna need research to, to, to know this for sure, but it, it, I suspect them seeing lots of different code styles and having to read those different code styles may actually inform them better than we do now about what makes code more readable. Uh, and then they might be able to employ that as they go forward. [00:31:21] Jeremy: And, and when you're saying they're gonna read different styles and things like that, are you referring to code they're gonna see from the LLM or are you talking about them reading just other code bases in their classes or their professional work? [00:31:39] Leo: Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, I was referring to the code. They'll see from the LLM Right [00:31:43] Jeremy: Oh I see [00:31:43] Leo: LLM will come back in all these different ways. They'll have different styles and they'll, uh, have different approaches to solving it. Right? Sometimes they'll, uh, come back with like this one line Lambda expression thing that solves it, and they'll have no idea how that works. And they'll, they'll ask for a different answer and they'll get, uh, a much more, uh, user-friendly first, uh, first programing experience kind of code back. And they'll be able to understand that and go, okay, this is the kind of code that I wanna see. Not this thing that was completely non-readable. [00:32:11] Dan: Yeah, Leo, I just thought of something. So, uh, so you know, by default you can get it to give you 10, uh, code segments to solve the problem, right? So it'd be kind of cool, if we ask students about each of them, right? Each of the 10, which ones are right, which ones have bugs, which ones have good style, which ones have bad style, it's like a built-in learning opportunity right there. So yeah. [00:32:34] Leo: Oh, it's true. Yeah. And, and so the 10 things that, uh, Dan I was referring to is if you do control, enter in vs code when you're working with a copilot, it'll give you back 10. Possible responses. And you're totally right Dan. You could just say of these 10, how readable are they? Are they right? Um, there's lots of fun things you can do to ask students questions. [00:32:51] Dan: and often many of them are right with just subtly different ways of, of, of, of solving the problem. I mean, I'll, I'll admit to having some fun looking through all of the suggestions just to kind of see what the variability is and when there's a lot of variability. I really like it because, uh, like Leo said, it exposes people to different styles they may not have seen before. And, um, may it may, it may, um, encourage you to ask questions, right? Like, why does this one work? Right? I've tested it. It doesn't look like it should work. Why does it work? I feel like that's the beginning of a pr pretty powerful learning experience right there. [00:33:30] Jeremy: Yeah, that makes sense to me because I, I think about how when a lot of people are doing software development before all these LLMs, they will search on the internet and go, okay, what's an existing answer for this thing I'm trying to do? They'll find a post on Stack Overflow and they'll find the accepted answer and it'll be like, okay, this is it. This is the solution. Whereas, at least in this case, it seems like you can go like, okay, well here's, here's 10, 10 potential solutions, and at least you get a little bit more exposure to, um, what are the different ways you could do it. [00:34:06] Leo: Exactly, and, and it's nice for 'em to see these different options. And I think there is, for professional software engineers seeing that stack overflow post, like, here's the accepted answer, integrating that into your code isn't a big jump for, for a lot of us. Um, but I do wanna stress that for the intro students, it often is a really big jump. Uh, just the, oh, how do I change around this? Oh, this was the interface for this function, but I'm been asked to have this other interface with a function and, and they really can struggle in that domain. And so I think copilot and these LLMs are nice in that they give back answers that are more tailored to the existing code that they're working with, um, and will reduce that barrier of them trying to incorporate the answer. Optimization can come later, most code is straightforward [00:34:50] Jeremy: So it seems kind of overall, when you're talking about people who are using programming in a more professional capacity, the code style and efficiency that will probably be taught very similarly to however it is now, where you basically have to get exposed to different styles and types of code, get exposed to the algorithms and and that will allow you to read the answers you get back better. So the answers you get back from the LLM with the knowledge you gain from these later courses, you'll be able to tell like, oh, okay, this is, this. Level of complexity, or this has like, you know, exponential, performance implications, that kind of thing. [00:35:43] Leo: So I think the performance piece is really important. Um, and I appreciate your, you bringing it up. I think, I'm, I'm kind of curious, uh, uh, what percentage of the time professional programmers are really spent, uh, are spending optimizing, uh, the code that they write? Um, I suspect a lot of the code that's written, uh, is pretty straightforward. Uh, you, you already know how to work with the database you're working with. You already know how to write the queries for that. You're, you're, you're just, uh, you're still doing something that, that's certainly thought provoking, but it's not the hard work of, oh, how am I gonna write design the right algorithm for this to get the exact best runtime? And so I think there are some times that that does matter, but those may be the times that the LLMs aren't as helpful and there's still gonna be a, a pretty big need for programmers who know how to do that, uh, themselves. [00:36:33] Jeremy: Yeah. I mean, I, I think that of course this is gonna vary from industry to industry, but Dan, you were talking about learning APIs and I feel like a lot of jobs are learning APIs and gluing them together. [00:36:49] Dan: Yeah. Um, I would agree, but I wonder what can happen if some of that's automated. Right? So maybe, people who are gluing APIs together will be able to. Get even more done, right? Incorporate even more, APIs in the same amount of time that they've been doing it. Now, I don't, I don't know if that job changes as dramatically as it, it seems, um, I guess there's this tension between people, having to change jobs or become more efficient in the current job. And, you know, obviously I, I hope it's the latter and there is some recent evidence that it could end up being, the latter, just more productive people overall, building, know, bigger software in incorporating more APIs than, than before and, and not overloading yourself. So, we'll, we'll see, you know, how it, how it all, um, how it all turns out. But I'm, I'm hopeful that we'll just be doing our jobs better. Reading code as a skill [00:37:51] Jeremy: In that, that context, sometimes people will say that the, the reading of code and comprehending code can sometimes be more difficult than writing the, the code. And in fact, can sometimes take you more time, like, let's say you've built out a project and now you need to add new features. Well, to add the feature, you have to understand the, the code base that existed before and so. When we talk about LLMs and the context of not programming, but just general writing, people talk about the fact that it's easy to generate more writing, right? We can generate more documents, blog posts, more articles, that sort of thing. And with code, it sounds like it'll be similar, right? Where it'll be easier for us to write more code, generate more code. Um, but I wonder if either of you have thought or, or think it's a concern that we'll be generating so much code that now we'll have so much we won't be able to even have the time to understand all of it, [00:38:55] Leo: I haven't thought much about the generating so much code that you can't understand. I mean, I think if, if we're generating code, I, I'm really hoping someone's testing and making sure it works right and stuff. And so I guess it depends on what kind of, uh, what level of the interface are we, we looking at. Um, but I have thought about a fair bit about the, the, what you described early on in your question, which was. Diving into a big code base, figuring out what needs to be changed and changing it, that is a really common task, especially for like new software engineers, uh, in their, their first jobs. Right. And it is also one that's really well documented in the, the education literature, uh, education literature, uh, that we aren't teaching them to do. Like we almost always are giving them, uh, right, these functions are really well defined or, uh, write the code all from yourself, but we rarely ever give them large code bases to learn from. Now I don't think diving into a large code base and trying to understand how it works is the right thing for like an intro class. And then we're mainly talking about, uh, students first learning your program here. Uh, but I am encouraged that we are teaching code reading as kind of a first level skill when I think current programming courses teach code reading right? In parallel with writing. So a lot of the writing's happening very early before they even know how to read well. Um, and so I think there's some optimism here that if we teach code reading first and make it a core skill, they'll be better set up in the later classes to maybe take on those large projects where they tackle the exact problem you're describing, which is also the exact thing they're gonna have to do when they get to, to their jobs. The amount of code we throw away may increase exponentionally [00:40:37] Jeremy: Yeah, it, it also kind of, I wonder sometimes when you're writing code, you'll write it in a certain way because it's tedious to write a lot of code, right? Like you'll, you'll make something generic in such a way where you can reuse it, and maybe reduce the amount of lines of code. But then when you have something, generate that code, maybe it'll be a solution that. Is a lot more code than you would've written personally, and it works. But, by nature, the fact that it was easy to generate, you chose that solution versus one that, that maybe was more generic and um, had less code. I, I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I'm kind of curious if the use of these models will sort of change maybe how we write code [00:41:30] Dan: I'm kind of wondering if the amount of code we throw away is going to increase exponentially. Because, because, um, you spend time working on something, you're probably gonna keep it. But I, I wonder because, uh, Jeremy, like what you said, it's, it's so easy to generate code now. so I, I've had this thought where, what, not sure how, how, um, how much I believe myself here, but, uh, should we be storing the, the prompt, like not the dot py file, right? Like just store the prompt and then if you do have to regenerate the code later, maybe you gotta make some tweaks or something. You just change the prompt and then, and then rerun it. So, because, because, because code is, um, It's not there yet, but it's, it's becoming free, right? It's becoming, you can generate as much of it as you want. And so I, I wonder how much, how much of it is, so there's, there's a lot of code already that you write once, and you run it once and then, and then you get rid of it or lose it or whatever. And I wonder if that, that practice will increase. So it's like, okay, you know, I wanna do this data analysis. Okay. So you write a prompt, you get some code, you generate some graph, and then you just don't even think about it. You just get rid of it, and then maybe later you want another similar analysis and you just do it again. Right. So I kind of wonder, because there's maybe less ownership now of code, right? You didn't like sweat as much to write the code. So maybe, maybe more of it gets thrown away. [00:43:03] Leo: I, I completely see what you're saying, Dan. So you have the prompt and you had it perform some form of data analysis and you wanna tweak it to do a slightly different data analysis. Uh, I wouldn't go into the, I mean, right now if I wrote the code from scratch, I would go into the code and find that one spot that I need to change and I would tweak it. But if I'm just generating the code, I would just tweak the prompt and then get a new piece of code that does exactly what I want there without having to, to [00:43:26] Dan: yeah. You know, how, how, it can take a, a long time to re-familiarize yourself with a program that you wrote six months ago. You know, it's like, oh, I, I called this variable temp one. Like, what's this for again? Right. you know, maybe, yeah, [00:43:41] Leo: Wait, I think we've all been there. Keeping the prompt instead of the code [00:43:43] Dan: Uh, but yeah, I don't know. It's just, just a thought I've been having. It's like, it, so, so when, when, now when, when I hear people talking about code maintenance, for example, like using, you know, good variable names and consistent style and stuff, in my head I'm thinking, well, you know, is, is the code the artifact now? Is it still the artifact? And right now, you know, of course it is. But, um, but, you know, fast forward a little while, maybe, maybe some of what I just said, uh, sort of becomes true eventually. [00:44:11] Leo: That's getting to perhaps kind a larger issue about what is the interface that we're, we work with as programmers. I've been thinking about this a lot, uh, just because I, I teach my, my background's. I have a PhD in computer architecture, and so I teach the classes that do machine code and assembly code, and they're, they're, they're core classes for computer scientists because you need to know how computers work. And, um, I think that's a core component, understanding that, But we don't start by teaching the students machine code. Like no one wants to learn how to program a machine. Um, at least I can't imagine anyone wanting to learn that. Um, and we've kind of cognitively picked Python or Java right now, the most common two programming language to learn from. Because they're easy to learn, they're easy to, to read. The code tends to be more understandable when you read it. It tends to be a little bit more forgiving when you write it. Um, and so we picked these because we think they're nice interfaces. They're, they're convenient for programmers and they're convenient for, for new learners. And it just seems to make sense that the LLM may be that next step of interface that we start choosing. The, the catch is because it can be wrong. It's not like a compiler. A compiler is deterministic. It's gonna be, uh, shy of that. Maybe one time in your career you find a compiler bug, like the compiler's always right. This time the LLM isn't always right and so I, I'm not sure how this is all gonna play out. Um, you can imagine the LLM as the new interface and all we ever store is, is code prompts and we don't ever even see the code, perhaps as one scenario. And the other is we, we do in fact still interact with the LLMs and still interact after the code. Um, but I think it's too early to kind of know where this is all gonna fall. But, um, we could see some big shifts, I think, in the field over the next few years. [00:45:52] Jeremy: Yeah, I think that's pretty interesting to think about what, what Dan had mentioned where yeah, you could check in your prompt and maybe a set of test cases for the app that's supposed to come out and yeah, maybe that's your alternative to the actual source code. Um, especially for things that, like you were saying, are, are used not that frequently or maybe you only use it once and so the, um, the quality of the actual code is. Maybe less so important in terms of readability and things like that. And as long as you can reliably reproduce that thing, yeah, maybe, maybe that does make sense. [00:46:39] Leo: The reliable reproduction could be the tricky part. And you there may be even saying that you, you start doing where you tag don't, don't try to reproduce this. Like, we actually spend a whole bunch of time on this. It's super optimized. Like, don't think the LLMs gonna give you this answer again. So, uh, keep the code along with the prompt. Keep the code too. Don't, don't scratch that because the LLMs not gonna do better. Um, and then in some cases you're like, yeah, the LLM's gonna do a pretty good job on this and [00:47:07] Dan: Yeah. Leo, maybe we have to Maybe we have to distinguish between code that you can just get out of an LLM no problem. And code that people have spent time working on. I like that. Yeah. Yeah, [00:47:21] Leo: some you're like, hashtag don't change. [00:47:23] Dan: Humans were here. [00:47:25] Leo: exactly. The concerns about relying on commercial tools [00:47:27] Jeremy: Yeah. this is the 30th iteration of this code we generated and we verified that this one's good. So just, just, it's a interesting, interesting future. We, we might be heading into, so, so one thing you, you mentioned a little bit earlier is that the tools that you're gonna recommend to your students, it sounds like it's primarily going to be GitHub copilot and GitHub copilot X for the, the chat interface. And one thing about these tools is these are tools by commercial companies, right? These are tools by OpenAI and Microsoft. They're tools that you have to pay a subscription fee to use. You have to send your code to a commercial server. And I wonder if that aspect concerns you at all. The, the fact that the foundations that our students are learning on is kind of reliant on these companies and these cloud services. [00:48:31] Leo: I think it's an amazing question. Uh, I think to some degree these are the tools that professional software engineers are using, and so we need, there's, there's a bit of an obligation as instructors to teach them the tools that they're gonna be using as professionals going forward. I think right now they're free. Uh, to use for, for education's sake. and so as long as that stays the case, I'm a little, more comfortable with it. If it started to move to a pay model for education, I think there could be some really big problems with equity. and I think it's not just true for, for computer science, but I'll start with computer science. I mean, if it's computer science and we start making it where you would have to pay to get access to these models or use these models, then whether we tell the students they can use it or not, they still can use them. And so there's gonna be some students that, the wealthier students who may have access to these, who are being able to learn better from these, being able to solve better homeworks with these, that's super scary. And you could imagine the same thing for even just K through 12 education, right? If you're thinking about them writing essays for homeworks or anything else, if it's a pay model, then the students who have, uh, the money will pay for it and get access to these tools. And the students who don't, won't. You could imagine the, all these kind of socioeconomic, uh, divides that already exist, only being exacerbated by these tools if they switch to this pay model. Um, so that has me very worried. Um, and there's some real ethical issues we have to think about when we're, we're using them. Yeah. Um, the other ethical issue I kinda wanna mention is just the, the copyright and the notion of ownership. Um, and I think it's important for us as instructors to engage students in the conversation about what it means to create content and intellectual property and how these models are built and what they're building off of. Um, and just engage in that ethical conversation with the students. I don't think we as a society have figured this out. I don't, I think there's gonna be some time both legally and ethically before we have the right answers. but at the very least, you need to talk to the students about, uh, these challenges so they know what's going on and they can engage in the debate. [00:50:45] Dan: Yeah, just to underscore that, Leo, this is the reason we're doing research on the first version of the course that Leo's teaching. We need research on the impact of LLMs, on students. especially, we need to know if students benefit from this, in what ways they benefit. How are these benefits distributed across demographic groups? We have a long and sad history in, computer science of inequities, in who takes our courses, who succeeds in our courses. we're very aware of this and it's, uh, unacceptable to make that situation, uh, worse than it already is. So, um, we're, we're gonna be carefully doing our research on this, uh, first offering of the course. A downside is students might bypass fundamentals [00:51:30] Jeremy: So we've mostly been talking about the benefits of using these tools in classes and in education. we just mentioned the possible inequities if you don't have access to those things, I, I wonder if from either of you, if there are negatives you see to this technology, whether that's the impact on what people learn or in anything else. Like are there downsides you see to the use of this technology? [00:52:04] Dan: Yeah. So in addition to, uh, the important, uh, inequity concerns that, uh, we just talked about, I have a concern about students using the tools in ways that. Don't help them learn the skills we think they need. So it's a, it's a, it's a power tool and you can, uh, you can get pretty far, I think with, without, um, being systematic in, in how you work with it and without testing, without debugging, um, it's, you know, it's, it's kind of magic right now. And so I can imagine, a lot of students just taking off at, you know, a hundred miles an hour. and so I'm one, one of, one of, uh, the things we have to worry about in these initial courses is, convincing students that there really are principles to using this technology. You can't just type something and get an answer and then go party. and, and, and so that, that is one of my concerns. That's one of the negatives. It's super powerful. And, like, like, so before you, you can't just type some Python and make it work and, but now you can sort of type in whatever you want and kind of get something back. and so part of our job as educators is to help students use these tools, in in a way that. Will ensure their long-term success with, with these tools, right? So, I, I'm not saying that they can't just do whatever they want and, and make some of their first assignments work. I, I think they could, I think they could be like un principled with the prompts and just throw it in there and get code and, you know, submit that, submit that code. But, uh, we're, we're going, you know, we're going for longer term, uh, effectiveness here, right? We have students who may not take another CS course. We need to keep them in mind. We have students who are gonna wanna eventually be software engineers, uh, security experts, PhDs in computer science, right? So we have a number of audiences that we're talking about, and we think they all need to know the fundamental skills of programming still. Even though, you know, they have this, this power tool at their expense now. [00:54:07] Leo: Speaking of the fundamental skills for programming, I, because of my, my hardware background, I'm this huge fan of teaching mental models in classes. Like what is the mental model of computation? Like, how, how do you imagine the computer is executing as you write the code? And, uh, ideally a professional computer scientist should be able to take, okay, well this is kind of the, my interpretation, this is my mental model for when I'm working at Python. If I really, really wanna drill this down, I can turn that into assembly. And if I really had to and turn to machine and even think about how this is working within the cash subsystems and virtual memory and all these things, I want 'em to be able to play those things out. We are changing the first class, and I think the first class is gonna be doing some things much better than before, like teaching problem decomposition and things like that. I'll, I'll mention that in a second, but, we are doing some things better. but we may not be teaching at how is the computer working as well. And so you can't just change one course and think the rest of the curriculum's gonna work. And so I think the entire curriculum's gonna need to adjust some, um, in, in a way of just adapting to these LLMs. Rethinking how to assess students [00:55:10] Leo: Um, the second piece for things getting potentially more challenging, uh, is instructors, we're in a good place right now as instructors, uh, in terms of how we assign and grade homework. Um, so grading, uh, this probably isn't gonna be a shock, is not one of our favorite things to do as faculty. I mean, it's actually really important. Uh, it's, it's central to us understanding how our students have learned, but it's generally not the most favorite thing that we do. And what a lot of instructors have done, myself included, is for much the introductory sequence. We have created assignments that can be entirely auto grade. So we define functions incredibly well. Like, write a really good description, this is exactly what it needs to do, and the students write that one piece of code and, uh, whether we like it or not. That is exactly when copilot does very well, and the LLMs do really well. And so the LLMs are gonna solve those very easily already. So we have to fix our assignments just like it, it's a given. Um, but it means that we're probably gonna have to rethink how we do assessment. Um, and so we're probably gonna be writing assignments that are much more open-ended and we're probably gonna have to be grading those, uh, putting more care and time integrating those potentially by hand. Uh, but I think these are all good things for the community and for the field. Um, but you can imagine how it's gonna be a bit of a, a shift for faculty and, and may take some time, uh, to be adopted as a result. [00:56:41] Jeremy: And, and so if you're shifting to homework that is more broad in scope, has more code, needs more human eyes on it, how how does that scale within the educators side? Right. You were, you were talking about how you've got, um, things that could be auto graded before and then now you're letting somebody generate this whole project. How does that work from your end? [00:57:09] Leo: I, I think there's a few things that are at play. Um, we, at, at large institutions like Dan and I are at, we have kind of armies of, uh, instructor assistants, instructional assistants that help us, uh, and so we can engage 'em in, in various tasks. And so, uh, one of the roles they heavily have now is helping students in the labs solve these auto grade assignments. and so you can imagine they will still be in the labs helping the students with these creative assignments, but now they're gonna have to have potentially a larger role in assessing the success of those. Um, there's been some really creative work, uh, in, in assessment and so I'll, I'll, I'll mention a couple of the ones, but there's, I, I'm sure I'm gonna be omitting some. But, uh, one is, Students could complete their project, and then they have to record a short video of them explaining the code that was in their project and how it worked, and you actually assess them on that video and their explanation of the code and how it works. Right? Because those can be perhaps shorter than trying to go through a really big project and, and see how it works. Um, there's a tool out of a UIUC, um, called Prairie Learn that helps with, um, uh, these are still auto graded, but uh, it helps with the, the test setting where you can write questions and have them, uh, graded kinda in a, in a exam or homework setting. the, the neat feature of that is that it can be randomized and so you don't have to worry as much about students kind of leaking information to each other about, test content from quarter to quarter. And so, because the randomization, they have to learn, actually learn the skills, and so you can, um, kinda engage with 'em in these test centers. And so right now a big grading burden on, on faculty is exams. And so you can actually give more exams, give more frequent feedback to the students and with, without the same grading burden. and so that, that's the other kinda exciting assessment piece. [00:59:01] Dan: Current assessment is not effective [00:59:01] Jeremy: In the different types of assessments, like the example of the video you gave, I'm just thinking to myself, well, the person could ask copilot or ChatGPT to give 'em a script, right? And they can rehearse that when they, um, send you a video. [00:59:18] Leo: I think, but I think that's, um, I think this is a philosophical shift in assessment that's kind of been gaining momentum over the years and that's that the assignments are all formative and they should all be. Pretty low stakes and the students should be doing them for the process of learning. and then, and, and it's unfair in some ways. There's a, there's a lot of things right now where you kind of grade them on, were you present at this time? Did you, did you meet this deadline at this time? Which if you're thinking about the, a diverse population of students, like you can imagine like a, a working mother who's also trying to do this, grading them on where you here at this time doesn't feel very equitable to me. And so there's this whole movement for grading for equity that shifts much of the assessment onto the exams. And so, yeah, the students could, uh, find multiple ways to cheat on the homeworks, but that's not the point of the homework and the homework's just to learn. It's a small scale, the grade, so. But you still then have those kinda controlled environments where they're taking these tests and that's where the grade actually comes from. Um, it's gonna take some time to make that shift, at, at, at least at a number of schools, my own included assess that those ho take home assignments are a huge portion of the grade. And students will love that because they can get all this help. And they can, especially with the auto graders, that they don't even write their own test cases. They just use the auto graders, the test cases. Right. Um, which is really depressing. Um, and they go to the, the, the instructional staff. The instructional staff tends to, to give away the answers. That's actually a paper that we, uh, published a few years ago. Um, and so the students love this high stakes, but tons of help version of assessment, but that may not actually measure their, their level of knowledge. And so it's gonna take a little bit of adjustment, for students and for faculty to do the shift, uh, to where the, as assess the, the exams are the Give students something interesting to build and don't worry about cheating [01:01:09] Dan: Yeah. Also, I'm, I'm not convinced that cheating is gonna be a problem here. it's very possible, for example, that students cheat on our previous assignments because the assignments were not authentic. Um, you know, in industry you're never going to, no one's gonna come up to you and say, Hey, like, from scratch, you know, write this exact function, takes two lists and determines, you know, how many values are equal between them. It's like, it's like, that's not gonna happen, right? You're gonna be doing something that has some sort of business purpose. And I kind of wonder, um, and this, this will, you know, this will play out, um, one way or another in the next, in the next, uh, few months. But I kind of wonder if we give students authentic tasks. Now you're cheating yourself right out of doing some, some something of value, right? Like before you were. You were probably cheating yourself out of a learning opportunity, but how, how can, you know, how can students know that? Right. The assignments boring, right? It's like, write all these functions and then something, something happens because of the magic, you know, starter glue code we wrote. So I don't, I don't know. I feel like if you give students opportunities to learn what they want to learn, um, there's, I don't, I don't know. I don't, I just don't think there's a reason to cheat. And, and also, I mean, um, I, I've been much happier in my career recently when I don't worry about it. So it's like, okay, I've got a bunch of students, some of them are gonna cheat, some of them are not. And I'm here to talk to the ones who, who wanna learn. So, I don't know. A lot of people were on some email lists, for example, and a lot of people seem to be panicking about it. And I, I kind of think, you know, buddy, you had a huge cheating problem before. I don't think it's gonna become worse now that you're giving students authentic work to do. Right? They, they all want to be using, uh, you know, programming to, you know, to do their jobs better or make their lives better, or the world better. They don't wanna waste their own time. But if you give them a decontextualized task, it's like, it's super tempting to just cheat, right? Because what's the point? Right? And so, um, I, I, I'm, I'm very hopeful. I, I, I am not convinced that that cheating is gonna be a problem. [01:03:23] Jeremy: Yeah, that's a good point, and I think it's very motivating for any student or anybody who's learning a thing to, to be able to see a clear, connection to like an actual thing that I made, versus I'm writing functions to pass these test cases is like not very, not very interesting, uh, intellectually. So I think if you structure the, the projects where it's like, oh, am I gonna actually make this thing that does this thing That seems pretty cool, then yeah, that's definitely more motivating to, to actually go through with it. [01:04:00] Dan: Like, just off the top of my head, imagine if every student had to make a landing page, like a website who's gonna cheat? Like what? I want a landing page. Like, I, I want that. And, and all student and students are gonna want that too. And so it's like, well, okay. Like I, I, I may as well make it right. Like this has a, this has a purpose. So, Leo. Leo, I'm curious, you've been, you've been, uh, patiently listening to, to that. I'm curious what you think about [01:04:29] Leo: Oh, I, I, I, I can't agree more. I think the, um, I mean, we can leverage the research, right? The computing and context is kinda this well established thing that if you teach computing in a context that's meaningful to the students, they tend to learn more and engage more, and wanna stay in the major more. Um, and I think we're just gonna be able to do, we do this right? We, for convenience sake, and because of the scale of the number of students that we've had in our classes, we've kind of moved away from that and gone to these auto graded nots of exciting assignments. And I think we're, this is the impetus we need to go back to fun, creative, interesting assignments that the students are gonna put time and care into because they want to, not because they have to. Problem Decomposition [01:05:10] Jeremy: So it, it sounds like through our discussion, you're, you're really excited about, bringing large language models into the classroom and kind of what that means for you and your, your students. And I wonder if there's anything we didn't really touch on or maybe something that was unexpected that you think is gonna make a really big difference, to you and your students. [01:05:33] Leo: I think one of the things that we haven't touched on yet that I'm, I'm really excited about is, the piece of problem decomposition. And so over the years, because of this trend towards auto grading, uh, what's happened is, all the cognitive work of taking a, a big, computing task and breaking into smaller pieces, deciding what classes should exist, what functions should exist, all those interfaces, all that work that I think is really interesting and exciting. It is now done for students because the auto grading structure just makes it so you have to have these functions and they just code the functions. and so I think that's really concerning just from a software engineer in perspective, that students are, are learning how to program without learning those core abilities as, as software engineers to take a large problem, break it down, figure out what the right interfaces are, and that's a lot of, that's actually more art than science, I'd argue. And so the more time you have to practice it, the better. And I am incredibly excited that LLMs are kind of forcing our hand to make us step back, give larger programming tasks to them, and teach them the process of problem decomposition explicitly in a way that, in a way that we've never really, never done before. I think that's, uh, that's a good place to, to wrap it up on so if people want to hear more about your upcoming book or maybe even enroll in in your class, Leo, where can they get some more information? I. Both Dan and I have active LinkedIn pages and we're happy to have folks, uh, follow us there. Manning Publishing is the, publisher for our book. Um, and so we have that book out on early access right now. Um, it should be available, uh, entirely electronically by August in time for the start of the fall quarter. Um, and then it should be out in print, uh, shortly thereafter. [01:07:25] Jeremy: Cool. Well, this has been an interesting discussion. I mean, large language models are kind of that's the thing right now. Everybody's trying to, to stuff it into every single product. And I think getting both of your perspective on where it fits in in education has been, has been very interesting. So thank you. Thank you very much for coming on the show [01:07:46] Leo: Thank you Jeremy, for inviting us and for running such great podcast. We really appreciate it. [01:07:52] Dan: Thanks Jeremy.

systemd is a service manager for Linux. It is the first process that runs on many Linux distributions and manages all other user processes. It includes utilities for logging, process isolation, process dependencies, socket activation, and many other tasks. psystemd is a python library to communicate with systemd over dbus from python as an alternative to shelling out from an application to control services. Anita Zhang is an engineerd managerd at Meta and Alvaro Levia is a production engineer at Meta. I attended their systemd workshop at the Southern California Linux Expo. Topics covered: What's systemd? Giving talks and workshops cgroups and namespaces systemd timers vs cron Migrating from CentOS 6 to 7 Production engineers need to go lower in the stack to debug applications Meta's Linux userspace team Use of public cloud at Meta Meta's bootcamp Pystemd Mastodon Anita Zhang Alvaro Leiva Workshop systemd workshop Conference talks Journey into the Heart of systemd - Scale 19x Systemd: why you should care as a Python developer - PyCon 2018 Move Fast without Breaking things - Scale 18x Solving All the Problems with systemd - LISA18 Using systemd to high level languages - All Systems Go! The Curious Case of Memory Growth - Scale 19x Related Links systemd psystemd systemd-run systemd-timers Transcript You can help edit this transcript on GitHub. Introductions [00:00:00] Jeremy: So today I'm talking to Avaro Leiva and Anita Zhang. Avaro is the author of the pystemd library and he's a production engineer at Meta. And Anita is an engineerd managerd at Meta, and I'll let her explain that further. [00:00:19] Jeremy: But thank you both for joining me today. [00:00:21] Anita: Yeah, thanks for having us. [00:00:24] Jeremy: I guess where we could start, Anita, maybe you could explain a little bit your, your title that I just gave you there. engineerd managerd [00:00:31] Anita: Yeah, so by default I, I should be a software engineering manager, but when I transitioned to management, I was not, Ready to go public with, um, my transition. So I kind of hid it by, changing the title. we have some weird systems in place that grep on like the word engineer. So I had to keep engineer in there somehow. and so I kind of polled my friends what I should change my title to, and they're like, oh, you're gonna support the systemd team, so you should change it to like managerd. So I was like, sounds good. engineerd, managerd. I didn't wanna get kicked out of any workplace groups, for example, that required me to be an engineer. [00:01:15] Jeremy: Oh, okay. [00:01:17] Anita: Or like engineering function, I guess. [00:01:19] Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah. And you just gotta title it yourself, so as long as you got engineer in it, you're good. [00:01:24] Anita: Yeah, pretty much. Some people have really fun titles like Chief Potato Officer and things like that. [00:01:32] Jeremy: So what groups does the, uh, the potato officer get to go in? [00:01:37] Anita: Yeah. Not the C level ones. (laughs) What's systemd? [00:01:42] Jeremy: I guess maybe to, to start, we should explain to people who aren't familiar, uh, what systemd is. So if either of you wanna wanna take that one. [00:01:52] Alvaro: so people who doesn't know, right? So systemd is today is your init system, right? Is the thing that manage your, your process. and the best way to understand this, it is like when your computer, it needs to execute something. And that's something is what we call pid one. And that pid one is the thing that is gonna manage everything from now from there on, right? Uh, in the most basic level, if you remember how to, how does program start, how does like an idea becomes a program? Uh, you need to fork exec, right? So that means that something has to be at the top of that tree and that is systemd. now that can be anything, right? So there was a time where that was like systemv and there was also like upstart, uh, today's systemd is the thing that, uh, it's shipped in most distributions. [00:02:37] Jeremy: Yeah, because I, I definitely remember when I first started working with Linux, uh, it was with CentOS 6, and when I would want to run a service, I would have to go and write a bash script and kind of have all these checks for, is this thing running? Does it have permission to these things, which user is it running as, and so there was a lot of stuff that I remember having to do before systemd came out. [00:03:08] Alvaro: The good old days as we call them, [00:03:11] Jeremy: Or the bad old days. [00:03:13] Anita: Yeah. Depending on who you ask. [00:03:15] Alvaro: Yeah. So, so that is super interesting because, um, During those time, like you said, you have to write a first script. That means that you were basically yourself, your own service manager, right? So ideas as simple as, is my program running? There was no real answer. You have to figure it out, right? So if you run a program, uh, you maybe would create a pid file which hold the p or the pid of the process, of the main process, right? And then something needs to check, oh, is this file exist? Does the file exist and does the content of this file actually match to a process? And then you grab the process. So it was all these ideas that you had to do, and then for, you have to do it for every single software that you would deploy on your machine, right? That also makes really hard to parallelize stuff, right? Because you have no concept of dependencies. So if your computer has to put, uh, I, I dunno if you remember like long time ago, like Linux machine would, takes like five minutes to boot like your desktop. I remember like openSUSE. I can't remember, like 2008, 2007. Uh, it would take like five minutes to boot and then Ubuntu came and, and it start like immediately. And it was because, you can parallelize things, but you cannot do that if all you're running are bash script. Why was systemd chosen to be included in Linux distributions? [00:04:26] Jeremy: I remember before the Linux distributions didn't include it. And I wonder if you have any insight into how systemd got chosen to be the thing to manage our processes and basically how we got to where we are today. [00:04:44] Anita: I mean, we can kind of speculate a little bit. at the time when Lennart started systemd, um, with. Kai Sievers probably messed up his name there. Um, they were all at Red Hat and Red Hat manages fedora these days and I believe fedoras kind of like the bleeding edge for a lot of the new software ideas. Um, and when they picked up systemd as the defaults, um, eventually it started to trickle down to the rest of their distributions through RHEL and to CentOS and at the same time, I think other distributions started to see how useful it was in terms of managing all the different processes and services. Um, I know Debian at one point had kind of a vote on like whether they should make systemd either default or like, make it easy to switch between both. And then they decided to just stick with systemd because it's, I mean, the public agrees that it's like easy to use and it's more useful. It abstracts away a lot of things that they had to manually do before Who is interested in systemd? Who comes to your talks and workshops? [00:05:43] Jeremy: Something I've been kind of curious about. So just this year at SCaLE uh, you ran a, a workshop teaching people how to use systemd and, and sort of what it is about. I guess when, when you get people coming to these workshops, what are they typically, where are they typically coming from? Are they like system administrators or are they software developers? Like when you run these workshops, who are you looking for as your audience? [00:06:13] Alvaro: To be fair, this was the first time that we actually did a workshop for this. But we have like, talk about this in, in many like conferences. here's what happened, right? So every time that you put systemd on the title of, uh, of a talk, you are like baiting people into coming in, right? Because you do want to hear like some people who are still like reluctant from that war that happened like a few years ago. Between systemd and Ups tart right? most of the people who we get are, I would say like, software engineers, people who do software, and at least the question that I always get a lot, it is like, why should I care about systemd um, if I run everything on my containers in my Docker containers, right? The other type of audience that you get, you do get system administrators. Uh, but in general those people only cares about starting and stopping services don't really care about like the, like the nice other features that systemd has to offer. And then you get people who just wanna start like flame wars and I'm here for them. Why give talks and workshops on systemd? [00:07:13] Jeremy: In previous years, you've given conference talks and, and things like that related to systemd. And I wonder for, for both of you where, where the, the interests came from, where this is something that you feel strongly enough about that you wanna give talks about it. Because it's like, a lot of times when people give a conference talk, it's about, like new front end technology or some, you know, new shiny thing. Whereas systemd is like, it's like very valuable, but it's something that I feel like a lot of people don't think about. And so I'm just kind of curious where the interest came for, for both of you. [00:07:52] Anita: I think I just like giving talks and teaching in general. So if I have work that I found really exciting or interesting, then I'd want to like tell people about it and like teach them and like show them something cool. I think systemd is kind of a really good topic in that case because a lot of people want to learn more about it. Today there's like lots of new developments going on in systemd. So there's like a lot of basic stuff that you can learn, but also a lot of new advanced topics that are changing every year as well. aside from that, there's also like more generally applicable things. Like everyone wants to know how to debug something if you're like a software engineer or developer or even a sysadmin. Um, so last year I did a debugging talk. there's a lot of overlap I'd say how about you Alvaro? [00:08:48] Alvaro: For me, it, my interest in systemd started in, back when I was working on Instagram, we needed to migrate from CentOS6 to CentOS7. and that was the transition where you would have like a random init system to systemd, right? So we needed to migrate all of our scripts from like shell script to whatever shell script is going to interact with systemd. And that's when I was like, I don't like this. So I also have a thing where if I find something that doesn't have an Python API for it, I go and create a Python api. So I, I create pystemd like during that time. And I guess for me, the first reaction was when I was digging up systemd was like, whoa, can systemd do that? Like, like really, like I can like manage, network firewalls, right? Can I, can I stop my service from actually accessing the internet without having to deal with iptables at the time? So that's kind of like the feeling that I wanted to show people when I, when we do these these talks and, and these workshops, right? It's why like most of our talks, eh, have light demos in them because we do want to show people like, Hey, like, this is real. You can use it. [00:09:55] Jeremy: I don't know if this was a conscious decision on your part, but the thing about things like systemd is they, they feel like more foundational things that don't change that quickly. Like if you look at front end development, for example, at at meta you've got React, and that ecosystem changes so often that it's like there's always this new thing, you learn the way to do it and then it changes, right? Whereas I feel like when you're in the Linux user space and you're with systemd, like they're adding new things, but the, the. Foundations kind of stay the same. I'm not sure if that sounds accurate to both of you. [00:10:38] Anita: Yeah, I'd say a lot of the, there are a lot of stable building blocks in systemd, but at Meadow we also have a kernel team, which is working on like new kernel features all the time. They take years possibly to adopt, but with systemd, if we're able to influence the community and like get those kernel features in earlier, then like we can start to really shape what the future of operating systems look like. So it's not, it's very like not short term, uh, work that we're doing. It's a lot of long term, uh, work. [00:11:11] Jeremy: Yeah, that's, that's interesting in that I didn't even think about the fact that you are sitting at the, the user level with systemd, but you kind of know what you want. And so if there's things that the kernel can do to support that, you're having that involvement. With the open source community, make sure that you have your, your say get put in there. Yeah. [00:11:33] Anita: Mm-hmm. [00:11:35] Alvaro: It, it goes both way, right? So one part it is like, yeah, sure, we want features and we create them. Um, and we actually wanted to those to be upstream because we like, one thing that you should, you should never do is manage internal patches for like, things like the kernel, because that's rebase hell. Um, but you also want to be like part of the community and, and, and, and get the benefit of like, being part of it. Who should care about systemd? [00:11:59] Jeremy: And so, like one thing you mentioned ear earlier, Alvaro, is that people will sometimes ask you, I'm running my application in, in Docker containers. Why do I care about systemd? So, so maybe you could explain like, how you would respond to that. Yeah. [00:12:17] Alvaro: Well for more, for most people who actually run their application container I'd say like, no, you probably shouldn't care. Right? Like, you're good where you are. But in general, like, like system is foundational in the sense that it is the first thing that your computer boots your computer doesn't boot off of Docker or Kubernetes or, or any like that. So like something has to run these applications. there's also like a lot of value is that not all applications exist in the vacuum. Like, uh, like let me give you an example. Like if you have a web server, When people are uploading stuff to the web server, you will upload temporary things and then you have to clean it up after a while. So you may want to take advantage of systemd timers or cron or, or whatever you want, right? While the classical container view is that your pid one of the container is the application that you're running, right? So you do want to have like this whole ecosystem, Not all companies can run on containers. not everything can run in containers. So that's basically where all the things start to, to getting into shape. There's a lot of value in understanding how programs actually like exist, right? With the thing that I told you at the beginning of how an idea becomes a program understanding like, like you hit, you are in your bash, right? And you hit ls Star full enter, right? What happened in your machine? Understanding all the things, uh, there is a lot of value and understanding how systemd works. It's, it, it provides, uh, like that knowledge for you. [00:13:39] Jeremy: So for the average engineer at Meta who is relying on your team to deploy their, their code, I guess, if that's the right term, do you think that they're ever needing to think about systemd or is that kind of more like the responsibility of your team and they're just worried about like, I put my thing into my container and I don't, I don't worry about it. [00:14:04] Anita: I think there's like a whole level of the stack that sh ideally we should not even care or know that we're running systemd below them. I think that's, say we're doing our job well, cuz then the abstraction is good enough that they don't have to worry about it. But there's like a whole class of engineers below that that have to, you know, support the systems that run our on bare metal and infrastructure and make it happen. And those are the people who really care about what we're putting in systemd or like what the corner cases are and things like that. [00:14:37] Jeremy: Yeah, that, that makes sense. I mean, one of the talks that was at SCaLE was, uh, Brian Cantrill um, he gave a talk about the forgotten operator, and he was talking about how people forget that there are actual servers behind all the things we're deploying to, right? [00:14:55] Anita: Mm-hmm. [00:14:55] Jeremy: There is a person that you're racking the machines and plugging the power, and like, even though there's all these abstractions in front, that still exists. And so it sounds like things happening at the kernel level and the Linux user space and systemd that's also true because all this infrastructure that people are using to deploy their software on your team is the one who has to keep that running and to keep that running, they need to understand, uh, systemd and, and all these foundational Linux pieces. Yeah. [00:15:27] Anita: Mm-hmm. Yeah. [00:15:29] Alvaro: Like with that said um, I, and maybe it's because I'm very close to to, to the source. Um, and, and you know, like, like I said, like when, when all your tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail? Well, that hammer for me, a lot of the times it is like even like cgroups or, or namespaces or even like systemd itself, right? there is a lot of times where, um, like for instance, a few years ago we have not, like, like last year or something, uh, we had an application that was very was very hard to load, right? It used a lot of memory. And so we start with, with a model where we would load like a, like a parent process and then child process would deal with, with, um, with the actual work of the thing, the classical model of our server. Now, the thing is that each of the sub process that would run would need to run, uh, on a separate set of privileges, right? So it would really need to run as different users. And that was like very easy to do. But now we actually wanted to some process to run with a, with only view of the file system while the parent process actually doesn't have to do that, right? Uh, or we want to limit the amount of CPU that a child process would use. So like all of these things, we were able like to, to swap it out uh, with using like systemd and, and, uh, like, like a good, Strategy for like, you create a process, you create a new cgroup, you put that into the cgroup, you create the namespace, uh, you add this process into that namespace, and then you have like all this architecture, and it's pretty free because forking it's free in general. [00:17:01] Anita: Actually, Alvaro's comment reminded me of like why we even ended up building the systemd team in the first place. It's kind of like if we have all these teams trying to touch cgroups on their own or like manage processes on their own, they're all gonna do it a different way and not, all of them will be ideal or like, to put it bluntly, I guess, we're really aiming to try and provide like a unified, really good foundational experience, for the layers above us. And so, systemd and the other things that go into the operating system are a step to get there. What are cgroups and namespaces? [00:17:40] Jeremy: And so for someone who's not familiar with the concept of cgroups or of namespaces, could you kind of give like a brief description? [00:17:50] Anita: so namespaces are, uh, we're talking about the kernel feature where, um, there are different ways to isolate, uh, different resources to the process or like, so that they have their own view of certain things, the network or, the processes and things like that. Um, and Cgroup stand for control groups. It's, at meta we only use Cgroups v2 which is a way to organize your processes into, Kind of like a directory view. but processes will be grouped into different, folders, shall you say, but that allows you to, uh, manage the resources between different groups of processes, which is how systemd does its services. [00:18:33] Alvaro: So a, a control group will allow you to impose restrictions on how each system uses the resources, right? So with a cgroup, you can say, only use 20% of cpu, and the, and the kernel will take care of that. Uh, while namespace it is basically how you view the system around you. So like your mount directory like, like where does your home points to? that's, I would say it's more on the namespace side of things. So one is the view then one is the actual, the restrictions. And like Anita said, like systemd does a very clever thing. It doesn't have two, is not the. It's not why cgroups exist, but every time that you start a systemd service, systemd will create a cgroup for that service and will put every process in that cgroup, even though all cgroups would end up being the same, for instance. But eh, you can now like have a consolidated list of what process belong to a service. So a simple question like, like what services has my Apache web service started? That's show you how old I am. But yeah, you can answer that now because you just look at the cgroup, you don't look at the process tree. [00:19:42] Jeremy: So it, it sounds like the, the namespacing is maybe more for the purposes of security, like you said, giving you a certain view of your, your system. and the cgroups are more for restricting resources, but also, like you said, being able to see what are all the processes, um, are associated. Um, so that you, you don't have a process that spins up other processes and then you don't know who owns those, and then you don't know how to shut 'em all down. That, that takes care of that for you. [00:20:17] Alvaro: So I, I always reluctant to use the word security or privacy. I would like to use the word isolation. Yeah. And then if people want to impose the idea of security and privacy to those, that's fine, but it's, but it's mostly about isolation. [00:20:32] Anita: Yeah. Namespaces are what back all the container technologies are. Anytime you run things in a container, it's probably using some kind of name spacing. But yeah, you, you kind of hit the nail in the head. Isolation versus like resource control [00:20:46] Alvaro: As Anita just said that's what fits on containers, uh, namespaces and cgroup like a big mix of those. But that doesn't mean that the only reason why those things exist are for containers. You can take advantage of those technologies without actually having to think of a container. systemd timers vs cron [00:21:04] Jeremy: Something you had mentioned a little bit earlier is, is how systemd has other features and one of them was, was timers. And I was kind of curious, cuz you said you could, you wanna schedule a job, you can run it using cron or you can run it using systemd timers. And it, I feel like whenever I see people scheduling jobs, they're always talking about cron but, but not so much about systemd timers. So I was curious if you had any thoughts on that. [00:21:32] Anita: I don't know. I feel like it's used pretty interchangeably these days. Um, like even when people say cron they're actually running a systemd timer with the cron format, for their time. [00:21:46] Alvaro: So the, the advantage of of systemd timers over cron is, is basically two, right? The first one it is that, you get more control on the time, right? So you have monotonic and absolute times, right? Which is basically like, you can say like this, start five minutes after the previous run. Or you can say this, start after five minutes after the vote, right? So those are two type of time, that is the first one, uh, which may be irrelevant for most people, but that's it. Uh, the other one is that you actually have advantage over the, you take full advantage of systemd, right? In current you say run this process, right? And how that process run, it's basically controlled by the process itself, right? So if you, uh, like if the crontab is for the user, that's good for you, but if you want to like nice it or make it use less cpu, that's what it is. Well, with systemd you say, This cron will start the service and the service, you take full fledged advantage of all the things a service can do. [00:22:45] Jeremy: From what I could tell, looking at the, the timers api, it, it felt like it would be a lot easier to kind of see when things ran, get, you know, get a log of, I ran this time job and it, it failed. Um, it seemed like systemd had a lot more kind of built in to, to kind of look into that. but, uh, yeah, like Anita was saying, like when you, you hear kind of cron all the time, but like you said, maybe it's, maybe they're not actually using cron all the time. They're just saying cron [00:23:18] Alvaro: Well, I would say this for cron like the, the time, the time, uh, syntax for it, it's pretty, it's pretty easy to understand, even though I never remember where, I remember where weekday is, right? The fourth, which one is which? [00:23:32] Jeremy: I, I'm with Anita. I need to look it up whenever I'm gonna use it. (laughs) [00:23:36] Anita: Yeah. I use a cron translator when I have to use cron format. [00:23:41] Alvaro: This is like, like a flags to tar, right? Like, I never remember which, which flags to put. [00:23:48] Anita: Yeah, that's true. [00:23:50] Alvaro: We didn't talk about this, we haven't talked about systemd-run, but one of the advantages of the, one of the advantages of using timers is that you can schedule them on demand, right? So like cron if you wanna schedule something over time, you need to modify the cron the cron file. Uh, and that's, it's problem right? With systemd, you can have like ephemeral units and so you can say like, just for now, go and run this process five hours from now. Like, and after that, just forget about it. [00:24:21] Jeremy: Yeah, the, during the workshop you mentioned systemd-run and I hadn't even heard of it. And after I saw that I was like, wow, this, this could be really useful. [00:24:32] Alvaro: It is quite useful. How have things changed at meta? [00:24:34] Jeremy: One of the things you had mentioned, I, I guess you've, you've been at Meta for, for quite a while and you were talking about how you started with having all these scripts you were running on CentOS 6 and getting off of that to something more standard. I wonder if you could speak a little bit to that, that process. Like what did things look like then and, and how have they they changed over the years? [00:25:01] Alvaro: I would say the following thing, right? Like Anita said, like for most engineers, the day to day of things don't really change that much, because this is foundational things, right? So if you have to fundamentally change the way that you run applications every couple of years, then you waste a lot of time, right? It's not the same as you say, like react where, or, or in the old days, angular where angular one, angular two, angular three, and then it's gone, right? Like, so, so I, I would say it like for the average engineers things don't change that much, uh, for the other type of engineers, like, like us who we, who that we really care about, like how things run. like having a, an API where you can like query the state of your service. Like if like asking like, is my service running with an API that returns true or false, that is actually like a volume value that you can like, Transferring in your application, uh, that, that helps a lot on, on distributed systems. a lot of like our container infrastructure that we use internally at Meta is based on a lot of these ideas and technologies. [00:26:05] Anita: Yeah, thinking back to the CentOS 6 to 7 migration, I wasn't on like the any operating systems team at the time, but I was working with them and I also was on a team that had to migrate, figure out how to migrate our scripts and things over. so the one thing that did make it easy is that the OS team, uh, we deploy all our things using Chef. Maybe you've heard like Puppet and Ansible, that's our version, the Open Source Chef code. Um, and they wrote some really good documentation on how to migrate, from Runit, which is what we were using before to systemd. it was. a very large scale effort across multiple teams to kind of make sure their stuff works, do the OS upgrade and then get used to using systemd. [00:26:54] Jeremy: And so the, the team who is performing this migration, that's not the product team. That would be the, is it production engineering? Is that, is that what you called that? [00:27:09] Alvaro: So, so I was at the other side of, of that, of that table where I, the same as Anita, we were doing the migration more how most things work at Facebook is that it's a combination of the team that is responsible for the technology and the teams who uses the technology. Right. So we are a company, so we. Can like, move together. it's the same thing when you upgrade kernels. Most of the time the kernel team will do the effort to upgrade the kernels, and when they hit a roadblock or something, they will call for the owner of the service and the owner of the service can help debug uh, for the case of CentOS 6 and CentOS 7, eh, I was the PE at Instagram P Stand for Production Engineer. I was the PE at Instagram who did most of the migration of our fleet. So I, I rewrote most of the things because I understand how our things work, and the OS team provide like the support to understanding like, like when can I use some things, when can I use not other things. There was the equivalent of ChatGPT at those days, right? I was just ask them how to do stuff. They will gimme recipes. so, so it it's kind of like, like a mix, uh, work, uh, between those two teams. Uh, Anita, maybe you can talk a little bit about what you talk when you were upgrading the version of systemd and you found a bug? [00:28:23] Anita: Oh, the, like regular systemd upgrades nowadays? I, I'd say it's a lot easier these days. I mean, since the, at the time when we did the CentOS 6 to 7 migration, it was like, our fleet was a lot more fragmented. I'd say nowadays it's a lot more homogenous, which makes, which makes it easier. yeah, in the early versions there were some kind of obscure like, interactions with the kernel or like, um, we, we make pretty heavy use of systemd to run our container system. So, uh, if we run into any corner cases, um, like pretty obscure stuff sometimes, because we make pretty heavy use of the resource control properties. we usually those end up on the GitHub tracker, things like that. [00:29:13] Alvaro: That's the side effect of hiring very smart people. They do very smart things that are very hard to understand. (laughs) [00:29:21] Jeremy: That's kind of an interesting point about you, you saying you're using these, these features, you know, of the kernel very heavily because, you're kind of running your own infrastructure, I think even your own data centers, so you're kind of forced to go to this level, it sounds like just because of the sheer number of services you're running and the fact that like, you have to find a way to pack 'em all onto the same machine. Does that, does that sound right? [00:29:54] Anita: Yeah, I'd say at, at our scale, like it's more cost effective to act, own the servers and run all everything on it ourselves versus like, you know, leasing from, uh, AWS or something, which we've also explored in the past. But that also means we need more engineers to build and run things on our servers. [00:30:16] Jeremy: Yeah. So the, the distinction between, let's say you're a, a small company or a mid-size company and you pay AWS or, or Google to, to do your hosting for you, then you may not necessarily get exposed to a lot of the, the kernel level problems or even the Linux user space problems because you're, you're working at a higher level and that's why you don't necessarily encounter those kinds of things. [00:30:46] Anita: I'd say not, not necessarily. I think, once you get even like slightly lower in the stack where you're just like on your own server, Then you will want to start really looking into like what systemd's doing, how does it interact with other, uh, services, um, on your server, and how can you like connect these different features together? [00:31:08] Alvaro: One of the things that every developer who who works like has to worry about is log right, and that, and that's the first time that you actually start interacting with systemdata available, right? So you have to understand, like maybe it's not just tail /var/log foo, but log right. Maybe it's just journalctl and it's like, what? But yeah. [00:31:32] Jeremy: Yeah. That's a good point too about whenever you're working with the operating system, like you're deploying onto a Linux machine. Regardless of the distribution, if you're the person who's responsible for that, you, you need to know this stuff. Right. Otherwise it's kind of like, you're just putting stuff out there and hoping for the best. Yeah. [00:31:54] Alvaro: Yeah. There, there's also another thing that, I dunno if I've said this before, but, a lot of the times you don't have to know these technologies, but knowing them will help you do your work better. [00:32:05] Jeremy: Yeah, totally. I mean, I think that that applies to pretty much anything in, in development, right? I, I've heard often that some people will say, you take the level that you work at currently and then kind of just go down one level. Right. And then, so you can kind of see what's underneath that. And you don't necessarily need to keep digging, cuz eventually if you keep digging, you're getting into, you know, machine instructions and whatnot. But, um, Yeah, maybe just one level is, is good to, to give you a better sense of what's happening. Production engineers need to go lower in the stack to be able to debug applications [00:32:36] Alvaro: Um, every time that I, that I, that somebody ask me like, what is the difference between a PE and a SWE, uh, software engineer, production engineer, typical conference, uh, one of the biggest difference that I, that I say is that a PE would tends to ask a lot of questions going the same thing that you're saying, we're trying to go down the stack, right? And I always ask the following question, eh, do you know how time dot sleep is implemented? Right? Do you like, like if you, if you were to see time dot sleep on your Python program, like do you actually know what is doing under the hood, right? Is it a while true? While the time, is it doing a signal interrupt? Is it doing a select on a file descriptor with a timeout? Like what is it doing? would you be able to implement it? And the reason why I say this, because like when you're debugging an application, like somebody something's using your cpu, right? And then you see that line on your code, you. You can debug every single line of your code. But also there's a lot of value to say like, no time.sleep doesn't cause CPU to spike. Right. Because it's implemented in a way that it would not be possible to do that. Meta's linux user space team [00:33:39] Jeremy: Another thing that I think might be kind of interesting to talk about is, so Meta has this Linux user space team. And I, I wonder like including your role in it, but just as a whole, like what does that actually mean day to day? Like, what are the kinds of problems people are facing that, a user space team would be handling? [00:34:04] Anita: Hmm. It's kind of large cuz now that the team's grown out to encompass a few other things as well. But I'll focus on the Linux user space part. the team started off, on the software engineering side as the systemd developer team. So our job was really to contribute to the community. and both, you know, help with, problems and bugs that show up in upstream, um, while also bringing in new features, that we think would be useful both at Meta and to like, folks, in the Linux community as a whole. so we still play a heavy role in, systemd. We also support it, uh, within the fleet, like we roll out new releases and things like that. but we're also working on a few other projects in. User space. Um, BP filter is one of them, which is, uh, how can we convert like IP tables and network filtering, into BPF programs. Um, on the production engineering side, they focus a lot on, the community engagements. So in addition to supporting CentOS they also handle, or they like support several packages in Fedora, Debian and other distributions, really figuring out how we can, be a better member of the open source community, and, you know, make connections there and things like that. [00:35:30] Jeremy: And, and what was your, your process for getting in involved with this team? Because it sounded like maybe it either didn't exist at the start, or it was really small and, and now it's really, really grown. [00:35:44] Anita: So I was kind of the first member of like the systemd team, if you would call it that. Um, it spun out of containers. So my manager at the time, who's now my director, was he kind of made a call out on workplace looking for people who'd be willing to, contribute to systemd. He was, supporting the containers team at the time who after the CentOS 7 migration, they realized the potential that systemd could have, making their jobs a lot easier when it came to developing the container backend. and so along with that, they also needed someone to help, you know, fix bugs, put in new features and things that would, tie into the goals of the containers team. Um, and eventually now our host management team, I was the first person who reached out to him and said, Hey, I wanna give this a try. I was on the security team at the time and I always had dreams of going back into like, operating systems development and getting better at it. So yeah, that's kind of how I ended up in this space. A few years later, he decided, Hey, we should build a team and you should like hire some people who will also do this with you and increase our investments in systemd. so that's how we kind of built out the Linux user space team to encompass systemd and more like operating system, projects. Working on the internal security team vs the linux userspace team [00:37:12] Jeremy: And so when you were working on the security team before, was that on software internal to meta or were you also involved with, you know, the open source, user space side as well? [00:37:24] Anita: That was all internal at the time. Which was kind of a regret because there was a lot of stuff that I would've liked to talk about externally. But I think, moving to Linux user space made me realize like, oh, there's so much more potential in open source projects, in security, which is still like very closed source from our side. [00:37:48] Jeremy: And, and so like in your experience, what have been some of the big differences? I mean, definitely getting to talk about it is a big one. but like in terms of your day-to-day, what are the big differences between working on something internal versus something that that's open source? [00:38:04] Anita: I have to talk more with external folks. we're, pretty regular members of like the systemd like conclave sync that we have with the other upstream maintainers. Um, Oh yeah. There's a lot more like cross company or an external open source community building that we have to do. it kind of puts into perspective like how we manage our time and also our relationships versus like internally, like everyone you work with works at Meta. we kind of have, uh, some shared leadership at the top. it is a little faster to turn around, um, because, you know, you can just ping people on work chat. But the, all of the systems there are closed source. So, um, there's not like this swath of people outside that you can ask about when it comes to open source things. [00:38:58] Jeremy: You can't, can't look in, discord or whatever for questions about, internal meta infrastructure to other people. It's gotta be. all in the same place. Yeah. [00:39:10] Anita: Yeah. And I'd say with like the open source projects, there's a lot of potential to tap into, expertise and talent that just doesn't exist internally. That's what I found really valuable, cuz people have really great ideas outside as well. Um, and we should like, listen to them and figure out how to build that into their systems and also ours Alvaro's work at meta [00:39:31] Jeremy: And, Avaro, I don't know when you first started, was that on internal, infrastructure and tooling as well? [00:39:39] Alvaro: Yeah, so, um, my path is different than Anita and actually my path and Anita doesn't share any common edges. so I, I don't work at the user space or the Linux kernel or anything. I always work in teams adjacent to it. Uh, but. It's always been very interesting to know these technologies, right? So I started working on Instagram and then I did a lot of the work in containers in migrations at where, where we build psystemd and also like getting to know more about that technologies. We did, uh, a small pilot on using casync which is a very old tool that like, it's only for the fans, (laughs) it's still on systemd repository, I dunno if that's used or anything, but it was like a very cool idea of how to distribute images. Uh, and in Instagram we do very fast deployments. So we deploy, or back then we used to deploy the source code, of Instagram every seven minutes, right? So every seven minutes, every time that a developer did commit to master, uh, we pushed that into production in less than an hour and we did that every seven minutes. So we were like planning to, to use those technologies for that. Um, And then I moved to another team inside of Meta, which is called Cloud Foundation, where we do a lot of like cloud infrastructure, uh, like public cloud. Uh, that's the area, that is very much not talked much about. but I keep like contributing to, to like this world. never really work on, on, on those teams inside of Meta. [00:41:11] Jeremy: So I guess it's your, your team is responsible for working with the engineers who work on product to be able to take their code and, and deploy it. And it's kind of like you work in combination with the user space team or the systemd team to make sure that what you're doing can be supported by them. Is that kind of an accurate description? [00:41:35] Alvaro: Yeah, that's, that's, that's definitely not an exhaustive description, but yeah, that's the, we, we, we do that. Public cloud at meta [00:41:42] Jeremy: It's interesting that you're, you're talking about public cloud now. So when you move to public cloud, are you using VMs kind of like you would in a data center, or is it, you're actually looking at the more managed services and things like that? [00:41:57] Alvaro: So I'm gonna take a small detour and say like, something that is funny. When I got hired by Facebook, we were working on Instagram. So Instagram was just an acquisition for, for, for meta right. And Instagram ran on AWS. So why wasn't the original team who were moving stuff from AWS into the internal data centers at Meta? On the team that I work now, uh, we work to support workloads that cannot run on meta infrastructure either for legal reasons, or for, for practical reasons. Right, because we don't have the hardware, uh, capability or legal resource because the government ask us, like, this cannot be on, on your data center or security, right? We don't wanna run this, this binary that we don't understand on our network. We do want to work in isolation. and the same thing that Anita was saying, where their team are building the common ways of using these tools, like systemd, and user space. we do the same thing, but for using cloud technologies. So in a way that is more similar to meta. So that's the detour now the, to answer your actual question, uh, we do a potpourri of things, right? So since we manage infrastructure and then teams deploy their code, they are better suited to know how their code, gets to run. Uh, with that said, we do have our preferred ways of how you would run stuff. and it's a combination of user containers, uh, open source containers, and and also like VMs There's a big difference between VMs and meta and in public cloud [00:43:23] Jeremy: So it, it sounds like in this case, you're, you're still using VMs even in public cloud, so the way that you do deployments, the location is different, but the actual software and infrastructure that you're running is, is similar. [00:43:39] Alvaro: So there's there's a lot of difference. Between the two things, right. So, the uniformity of hardware at Facebook, or our data centers, makes deploying things very simple, right? while in, in the cloud, you first, you don't get that uniformity because everybody like builds their AMIs as, as they want to build it. But also like a meta, we use, one operating system, in the cloud, you are a little bit more free of what you want. And one of the reasons why you want to go to the cloud is because you can run stuff on. On, on, on the way that that meta will run. Right? So, so even though we have something that are similar, it's not as simple like, oh, just change your deployment from like this data center to like whatever us is one think you would run. [00:44:28] Jeremy: Can, can you give an example of something where you wouldn't be able to run it on Meta's, image that they would choose to go to public cloud to run a different image for? [00:44:41] Alvaro: So, um, so in, in general, like if the government ask us, like, this is not necessarily like, like the US government, right? So, and like if the government ask us like, hey, like you need to keep this transaction on, on our territory, right? for logs, for all the reasons, for whatever, right? like, and, and we wanted to be in the place, we would have to comply. And that's where we will probably use this, this kind of technologies security is another one that is pretty good. And the other one, it is like, in it general, like, like, uh, like disaster recovery, right? If, if meta is down in a way where we cannot communicate with each other using metas technologies, right? Like you would need to have like a bootstrap point. [00:45:23] Jeremy: Is, is it the case where you are not able to put, uh, meta's image up into public cloud? Because you were, The examples you gave was more about location, right? Where you're saying we need to host in public cloud because it needs to be in this country, but then I think you were also saying the, the actual images you would use on AWS right. Would be. I don't know, maybe you'd be using Amazon Linux or maybe you'd be using a different, os entirely. And is that mainly because you're just not able to deploy the same images you have, uh, in-house? [00:46:03] Alvaro: So in, in, in general, uh, this is kind of like very hard to to explain, but, but, uh, if, if we would have to deploy code to a, machine and that machine would, would, would be accessed by people who are not like meta employees and we have no way of getting them to sign NDAs then we would not deploy meta code into that machine. Uh, because that's Sorry. No, not Pi PI's personal information. I was, uh, ip, sorry, that's that's the word. Yeah. Yeah. [00:46:31] Jeremy: So, okay. So if there's, so if you're in public cloud, there's certain things that you just won't put there just because. Those are only allowed to run on Metas own infrastructure. [00:46:44] Alvaro: Yeah Meta's bootcamp [00:46:44] Jeremy: Earlier you were talking about Instagram was an acquisition and they were in AWS were, were you there at the time or you joined, after? [00:46:54] Alvaro: No, I joined. I joined after I joined to, to meta. The way that Meta does hiring, at least for my area, is that you get hired as a production engineer, but you don't get assigned to a team. So you go through a process called boot camp where you get to try different teams and figure out what things you like. I try a couple of different teams, turns out that I like it to work at the Instagram. [00:47:15] Jeremy: And so at that time they were already running on Facebook's internal infrastructure and they had migrated off of AWS [00:47:24] Alvaro: We were on the process of finishing that migration. [00:47:28] Jeremy: So by the time you were there, yeah. Basically get, getting everything out of AWS and then into meta's internal. [00:47:35] Alvaro: Yeah. And, and, and everything is, is a very hard terms to, to define. Uh, I would say like, like most of all, like the bulk of things we were putting it in inside, like, at least what we call our Django servers. Like they were all just moving into internal infrastructure. How Anita started [00:47:52] Jeremy: This kind of touches on the, the whole boot camp thing, but, Anita, I saw that you, you interned at Facebook and then you took a position there, when you ended up taking a position, I'm kind of curious what were the different projects you looked at or, or how did you end up settling on the one you chose? [00:48:11] Anita: Yeah, I interned, um, and I joined straight out of university. I went into bootcamp similar to Alvaro and I got the chance to explore several different teams. I knew I was never gonna do UI that was just like not my thing. Um, so I focused, uh, my search on all like backend infrastructure teams. Um, obviously security, uh, was one of them because that's the team I was in interning on. Um, I also explored, the kind of testing infra team. we call it sandcastle. It runs our internal like unit tests and things. and I also explored one of the, ads infrastructure backend teams. so it was mainly just, you know, getting to know the people, um, seeing which projects appealed to me the most. Um, and then, you know, I kind of chose based on that, I, I think I've always chosen. My work based on how interesting the project sounded, uh, which has worked out in my favor as far as I could tell. How Alvaro started [00:49:14] Jeremy: How, how about, you Alvaro what were the, the different projects you looked at when you first started? [00:49:20] Alvaro: So, As a PE you do have a more restrictive, uh, number of teams that you can, that you can join. Uh, like I don't get an option to work in ui. Not that I wanted, but, (laughs) I, I, it's, it's so long ago. Uh, I remember I did look at, um, at MySQL as a team, uh, that was also one of the cool team. Uh, we had at that time, uh, distribute, uh, engine, uh, to, to run work, like if, like celery or something like that. But internally, I really like the constable distribute like workloads, um, and. I can't remember. I think I did put, come with the Messenger team, that I, I ended up having like a good relationship with their TL their tech lead, uh, but never actually like joined that team. And I believe because she have me have a, a PHP task and it was like, no, I'm not down for doing PHP [00:50:20] Jeremy: Only Python. Huh? [00:50:21] Alvaro: Exactly. Python. Python. Because it's just above C level. Psystemd [00:50:27] Jeremy: I mean related to that, you, you started the, the psystemd project. And so I wonder if you could explain what the context behind that was. Like what sparked I need to make this, this library? [00:50:41] Alvaro: So it's, it's a confluence of two things. The first one, it is like, again, if I see something that doesn't have a Python API for it, I. Feels the strong urge to create one. I have done this a couple of times, mostly internally, but also externally. that was one. And when, while we were doing the migration, I, I, I honestly, I really hate text processing. So the classical thing was like, if you wanna know if your application's running, you do systemctl, you shell out to systemctl status, then parse the output, find the, find the status column. Okay. And I didn't like that. And I start reading about like, systemd uh, and I got in contact with the or I saw like the dbus implementation of systemd. And that was, I thought that was a very interesting idea how that opened all the doors. Right? Uh, so I got a demo working like in a couple of hours. and then I said like, okay, now how do we make this pythonic? And then I created that and I just created, again, just for migrating Instagram. That was the idea. Then, uh, one of the team members who work with Anita, but also one who doesn't work with us anymore, they saw this and said like, Hey, like this looks like a good thing to open source it. So it was like, sure, like I'm happy to opensource it. So we opensource it and then we went to all System Go, which is a very nice interesting conference that happened in Berlin where like all the head for like user space get together. and, and I talk about it and people seems to like it, and that's the story of that. [00:52:15] Jeremy: And so this was replacing, I guess, like you were saying, a lot of people were shelling out and running cat commands and things like that from their Python scripts. And this was meant to be a layer on top of that. [00:52:30] Alvaro: Yes. So it, it does a couple of things. So first of all, inspecting the processes or, or like the services, getting that information out. That's one of the main usage. But also like starting or stopping or like doing all that operations that you want to do. Uh, knowing the state of, of, of services, uh, that's also another thing that people take advantage of. The other thing that people take advantage of is to modify the status of the, of the processes at runtime, like changing properties, like increasing or decreasing the CPU threshold. because systemd provides a very nice API or interface to modify the cgroups properties that otherwise you would need to kind of understand the tree structure that, uh, that, that whatever. so that's what people tend to use this mostly internally. [00:53:23] Jeremy: And so it, it sounds like at least on the production engineering side, you're primarily working in, in Python. is that something that's the teams before were using Python and so everybody just continues using Python? Or is there kind of like more structure or thought put into that? [00:53:41] Alvaro: I would say the following thing about it, um, like in in general, uh, there's, there's not a direction on which language you should use. It's pretty natural which language you should use, but with without said, there's not a Potpourri of languages inside of, of meta. most teams use c c plus plus Python and rust and that's it. There's go, that appears every once in a while there. Sorry, I should not talk about this like, like, or talk like this about this, but eh, there are team who are actually like very fond of go and they use it and they contribute a lot to that space. It's just not. That much, uh, use internally. I have always gravitated towards Python. That has been the language that teach me how to do real coding. and that's the language that got me a job at meta. So I tends to work mostly on that. Yeah. [00:54:31] Anita: Hey, you forgot hack Alvaro. Our web services. (laughs) [00:54:37] Alvaro: Yes. Yes. Uh, so I would say like, the most used language at Meta is actually PHP it's just like used by, by one particular product. That, that is the Facebook product. Yes. So our, our entire web interface, eh, or web stack uses a combination of hack, which is a compiled php, which is better than uncompiled php, also known as vanilla php. Uh, there is a lot of like GraphQL, React, and, I think that's it. [00:55:07] Anita: Infrastructure is largely like c plus plus Python, and now Rust is getting a huge following as well. [00:55:15] Alvaro: Yeah. Like, like Rust. Rust is, I I would say it's the fastest growing language inside, inside of Meta. And the thing is that there is also what you call like the bootstrap problem. Um, there's like today, if I wanted do my python program and I have a function that fails one every three times, I can add a decorator that is retry, that retries every time that something fails for a timeout, right? And that's built in and it's there used and it's documented. And I can look at source code that uses this to understand how, how works. When you start with a new language, you don't get the things. So people have to build them. So there's the bootstrap problem. [00:55:55] Jeremy: That's also an opportunity as well, right? Like if you are the ones building sort of the foundations, then you, you have an opportunity to be the ones who have the core libraries that people are, are using every day. Whereas if a language has been around a while, it's kind of, some of that stuff is already set, right? And you may or may not like the APIs, but that's what people use. So that's what we, that's what we do. One of the last things I'd kind of like to ask, so Anita, you moved into management in just the last year or two or so, and I'm kind of curious what your experience has. Been like, was that a conscious decision where you wanted to go from engineering, uh, software engineering to management? Or maybe you could talk a little bit to that. [00:56:50] Anita: Oh man, it hasn't even been a year yet. I feel like so much time has passed already. Uh, no, I never had any plans to go into management. I love being an engineer. I love being in the code. but, I'd say my, my current manager and uh, my director, you know, who hired me into the Linux user space team, kind of. Sold me a little bit on the idea of like, Hey, if you wanna like, keep pushing more projects, you wanna build out the team that you wanna see working on these things, um, you can consider going into management, taking it slow in a, what we call a T L M role, which is like a tech lead manager, role where you kind of spend some time doing development, and leading the team while also supporting, the engineers as a manager doing the hiring and the relationship building and things that you do in management. so that actually worked out quite well for me, despite Alvaro shaking his head at first. I really enjoyed being able to split my time into kind of the key projects that I really wanted to work on, um, while also supporting the engineers and having them build out, um, New features in systemd and kind of getting their own foothold in the community as well. but I'd say like in the past few months, it's been pretty crazy. I, I probably naively thought that I'd have a little more control over, I don't know. My destiny has a manager and that's like a hundred percent not true. (laughs) Um, you're, you are kind of at both the whims of your engineers and also the people above you. And you kind of have to strike that balance. But, um, my favorite part still, just being able to hide the nasty stuff away from the engineers, let them focus on their work and enjoy what engineers wanna do best, which is just like coding, designing, and like, you know, doing fun, open source stuff. [00:58:56] Alvaro: I will say like, Anita may laugh about me for, because like she's on the other side, but one thing that I least I find very cool at Meta is that managers are not seen as your boss. Right? They're still like a teammate who just basically has a different roles. This is why like when you're an engineer, you can transition to be a manager and that's, it's not considered a promotion that's considered like a, a like an horizontal step and vice versa, you can come back, right. from a manager into, into like an engineer. Yeah. [00:59:25] Jeremy: That was what I would say. And, uh, I guess when you were shaking your head, I'm guessing this means you, you don't wanna become a manager anytime soon. [00:59:35] Alvaro: So I, I never closed the door on that, but I was checking my head to the work of a tlm. Right. Uh, so the tlm TL stands for Tech Lead and m stands for manager. so you're basically both, but with the time of only one. So, uh, Anita was able to pull it off. I don't think I would be able to pull up like, double duty on that. [00:59:56] Anita: Yeah. Unfortunately I support too many people now to do the TL stuff as deeply as I used to, but I still have find some time to code a little bit here and there. [01:00:09] Jeremy: So you were talking a little bit about how things have been crazy the last few months. If, if someone is making the transition into management, like what are the kinds of things that you would tell them to, to look out for or to be aware that's coming? [01:00:27] Anita: Um, when I, before I transitioned, I talked to a lot of managers about like, oh, what was like, you know, the hardest part about management. And they all have kind of their own horror story about what happened to them when they transitioned or even like, difficult things that happened to them during management. I'd say don't expect it to be easy. you're gonna make a lot of mistakes usually in like the interpersonal relationship side, and it's really just about learning how to learn from your mistakes, pick back up and do better next time. I think, um, you know, if people like books, the Making of a Manager by Julie Jo, she was a designer, and also a manager, at then Facebook. She's no longer here. but she has a really good book on like what you can expect when you transition into management. the other thing I'd say is don't go into management without having a management chain that you can really trust. I'd say that can kind of make or break your first few years as a manager, whether you'll enjoy it or not, or even like whether you'll be able to get through the hard times. [01:01:42] Jeremy: Good point. Yeah. I mean, I think whenever you take on anything new, right? Having the support of the people above you or just around you as well is like, that makes such a big difference, right? Even like the situation can be bad, but if everyone is supportive, then you can, you can get through it. [01:02:02] Anita: Yeah, that's absolutely right. [01:02:04] Jeremy: I think that's a good place to wrap up unless either of you have anything else that you thought we should have talked about. so if people want to check out what you're working on, what you're up to, um, how can they find you? [01:02:20] Anita: well, I guess we're both on matrix now. Uh, I'm Anita Zha on Matrix, a n i t a z h A. we both have Twitters as well. If you just search up our names. Nope. Yeah, you're on Twitter. Yeah. [01:02:36] Alvaro: There is an impostor with my name, right? Actually it's not an impostor. It's just me. I just never log into Twitter anymore. [01:02:40] Anita: We both have Mastodon now as well? Yes. Fosstodon we're both frequently at conferences as well. what's, what's coming up next? I think it's, uh, devconf cZ in the Czech Republic. and then, uh, all systems go in September. [01:02:57] Alvaro: You sent something in Canada? [01:03:01] Anita: Oh, yeah. L F F L F S M M B P F is coming up. That's a, that's more of a kernel conference, though. [01:03:09] Alvaro: An acryonym that is longer than the actual word. Yes. Yeah. [01:03:12] Jeremy: That's a lot. That's a lot of letters. [01:03:14] Anita: It's a, it's a mouthful. (laughs) [01:03:18] Jeremy: That's very neat that you get to, to kind of go to all these different conferences and, and actually get, to meet the people in, in person that are, you know, working with the same things you are and, get to be in the same room. I think that's a, that's a real privilege. Yeah. [01:03:35] Anita: Yeah, for sure. [01:03:38] Jeremy: All right. Well, Anita and Alvaro, thank you so much for chatting with me today. [01:03:43] Alvaro: Thank you for hosting. [01:03:45] Anita: Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity. This is a lot of fun.

David Cramer, Co-founder and CTO of Sentry, discusses application monitoring with Sentry, treating performance problems as errors, identifying common problems in applications, challenges with front-end applications, and the evolution of Sentry's architecture.

Luca Casonato is the tech lead for Deno Deploy and a TC39 delegate. Deno is a JavaScript runtime from the original creator of NodeJS, Ryan Dahl. Topics covered: What's a JavaScript runtime How V8 is used Why Deno was created The W3C WinterCG for server-side JavaScript Why it's difficult to ship new features in Node The benefits of web standards Creating an all-inclusive toolset like Rust and Go Deno's node compatibility layer Use cases for WebAssembly Benefits and implementation of Deno Deploy Reasons to deploy on the edge What's coming next Luca Luca Casonato @lcasdev Deno Homepage Deploy Showcase Subhosting Fresh web framework The anatomy of an Isolate Cloud Deno Users Netlify Edge Functions Deno at Slack GitHub Flat Data Shopify Oxygen Other related links Cache Web API V8 (JavaScript and WebAssembly engine) TC39 (JavaScript specification group) Web-interoperable Runtimes Community Group (WinterCG) Cloudflare Workers (Deno Deploy competitor) How Cloudflare KV works CockroachDB (Distributed database) XKCD Standards Comic Transcript You can help edit this transcript on GitHub. [00:00:07] Jeremy: Today I'm talking to Luca Casonato. He's a member of the Deno Core team and a TC 39 Delegate. [00:00:06] Luca: Hey, thanks for having me. What's a runtime? [00:00:07] Jeremy: So today we're gonna talk about Deno, and on the website it says, Deno is a runtime for JavaScript and TypeScript. So I thought we could start with defining what a runtime is. [00:00:21] Luca: Yeah, that's a great question. I think this question actually comes up a lot. It's, it's like sometimes we also define Deno as a headless browser, or I don't know, a, a JavaScript script execution tool. what actually defines runtime? I, I think what makes a runtime a runtime is that it is a, it's implemented in native code. It cannot be self-hosted. Like you cannot self-host a JavaScript runtime. and it executes JavaScript or TypeScript or some other scripting language, without relying on, well, yeah, I guess it's the self-hosting thing. Like it's, it's essentially a, a JavaScript execution engine, which is not self-hosted. So yeah, it, it maybe has IO bindings, but it doesn't necessarily need to like, it. Maybe it allows you to read the, from the file system or, or make network calls. Um, but it doesn't necessarily have to. It's, I think the, the primary definition is something which can execute JavaScript without already being written in JavaScript. How V8 and JavaScript runtimes are related [00:01:20] Jeremy: And when we hear about JavaScript run times, whether it's Deno or Node or Bun, or anything else, we also hear about it in the context of v8. Could you explain the relationship between V8 and a JavaScript run time? [00:01:36] Luca: Yeah. So V8 and, and JavaScript core and Spider Monkey, these are all JavaScript engines. So these are the low level virtual machines that can execute or that can parse your JavaScript code. turn it into byte code, maybe turn it into, compiled machine code, and then execute that code. But these engines, Do not implement any IO functions. They do not. They implement the JavaScript spec as is written. and then they provide extension hooks for, they call these host environments, um, like environments that embed these engines to provide custom functionalities to essentially poke out of the sandbox, out of the, out of the virtual machine. Um, and this is used in browsers. Like browsers have, have these engines built in. This is where they originated from. Um, and then they poke holes into this, um, sandbox virtual machine to do things like, I don't know, writing to the dom or, or console logging or making fetch calls and all these kinds of things. And what a runtime essentially does, a JavaScript runtime is it takes one of these engines and. It then provides its own set of host APIs, like essentially its own set of holes. It pokes into the sandbox. and depending on what the runtime is trying to do, um, the weight will do. This is gonna be different and, and the sort of API that is ultimately exposed to the end user is going to be different. For example, if you compare Deno and node, like node is very loosey goosey, about how it pokes holds into the sandbox, it sort of just pokes them everywhere. And this makes it difficult to enforce things like, runtime permissions for example. Whereas Deno is much more strict about how it, um, pokes holds into its sandbox. Like everything is either a web API or it's behind in this Deno name space, which means that it's, it's really easy to find, um, places where, where you're poking out of the sandbox. and really you can also compare these to browsers. Like browsers are also JavaScript run times. Um, they're just not headless. JavaScript run times, but JavaScript run times that also have a ui. and. . Yeah. Like there, there's, there's a whole Bunch of different kinds of JavaScript run times, and I think we're also seeing a lot more like embedded JavaScript run times. Like for example, if you've used React Native before, you, you may be using Hermes as a, um, JavaScript engine in your Android app, which is like a custom JavaScript engine written just for, for, for React native. Um, and this also is embedded within a, like react native run time, which is specific to React native. so it's also possible to have run times, for example, that are, that can be where the, where the back backing engine can be exchanged, which is kind of cool. [00:04:08] Jeremy: So it sounds like V8's role, one way to look at it is it can execute JavaScript code, but only pure functions. I suppose you [00:04:19] Luca: Pretty much. Yep. [00:04:21] Jeremy: Do anything that doesn't interact with IO so you think about browsers, you were mentioning you need to interact with a DOM or if you're writing a server side application, you probably need to receive or make HTTP requests, that sort of thing. And all of that is not handled by v8. That has to be handled by an external runtime. [00:04:43] Luca: Exactly Like, like one, one. There's, there's like some exceptions to this. For example, JavaScript technically has some IO built in with, within its standard library, like math, random. It's like random number. Generation is technically an IO operation, so, Technically V8 has some IO built in, right? And like getting the current date from the user, that's also technically IO So, like there, there's some very limited edge cases. It's, it's not that it's purely pure, but V8 for example, has a flag to turn it completely deterministic. which means that it really is completely pure. And this is not something which run times usually have. This is something like the feature of an engine because the engine is like so low level that it can essentially, there's so little IO that it's very easy to make deterministic where a runtime higher level, um, has, has io, um, much more difficult to make deterministic. [00:05:39] Jeremy: And, and for things like when you're working with JavaScript, there's, uh, asynchronous programming [00:05:46] Luca: mm-hmm. Concurrent JavaScript execution [00:05:47] Jeremy: So you have concurrency and things like that. Is that a part of V8 or is that the responsibility of the run time? [00:05:54] Luca: That's a great question. So there's multiple parts to this. There's the part, um, there, there's JavaScript promises, um, and sort of concurrent Java or well, yes, concurrent JavaScript execution, which is sort of handled by v8, like v8. You can in, in pure v8, you can create a promise, and you can execute some code within that promise. But without IO there's actually no way to defer time, uh, which means that in with pure v8, you can either, you can create a promise. Which executes right now. Or you can create a promise that never executes, but you can't create a promise that executes in 10 seconds because there's no way to measure 10 seconds asynchronously. What run times do is they add something called an event loop on top of this, um, on top of the base engine and that event loop, for example, like a very simple event loop, for example, might have a timer in it, which every second looks at if there's a timer schedule to run within that second. And if it does, if, if that timer exists, it'll go call out to V8 and say, you can now execute that promise. but V8 is still the one that's keeping track of, of like which promises exist, and the code that is meant to be invoked when they resolve all that kind of thing. Um, but the underlying infrastructure that actually invokes which promises get resolved at what point in time, like the asynchronous, asynchronous IO is what this is called. This is driven by the event loop, um, which is implemented by around time. So Deno, for example, it uses, Tokio for its event loop. This is a, um, an event loop written in Rust. it's very popular in the Rust ecosystem. Um, node uses libuv. This is a relatively popular runtime or, or event loop, um, implementation for c uh, plus plus. And, uh, libuv was written for Node. Tokio was not written for Deno. But um, yeah, Chrome has its own event loop implementation. Bun has its own event loop implementation. [00:07:50] Jeremy: So we, we might go a little bit more into that later, but I think what we should probably go into now is why make Deno, because you have Node that's, uh, currently very popular. The co-creator of Deno, to my understanding, actually created Node. So maybe you could explain to our audience what was missing or what was wrong with Node, where they decided I need to create, a new runtime. Why create a new runtime? (standards compliance) [00:08:20] Luca: Yeah. So the, the primary point of concern here was that node was slowly diverging from browser standards with no real path to, to, to, re converging. Um, like there was nothing that was pushing node in the direction of standards compliance and there was nothing, that was like sort of forcing node to innovate. and we really saw this because in the time between, I don't know, 2015, 2018, like Node was slowly working on esm while browsers had already shipped ESM for like three years. , um, node did not have fetch. Node hasn't had, or node only at, got fetch last year. Right? six, seven years after browsers got fetch. Node's stream implementation is still very divergent from, from standard web streams. Node was very reliant on callbacks. It still is, um, like promises in many places of the Node API are, are an afterthought, which makes sense because Node was created in a time before promises existed. Um, but there was really nothing that was pushing Node forward, right? Like nobody was actively investing in, in, in improving the API of Node to be more standards compliant. And so what we really needed was a new like Greenfield project, which could demonstrate that actually writing a new server side run. Is A viable, and b is totally doable with an API that is more standards combined. Like essentially you can write a browser, like a headless browser and have that be an excellent to use JavaScript runtime, right? And then there was some things that were I on top of that, like a TypeScript support because TypeScript was incredibly, or is still incredibly popular. even more so than it was four years ago when, when Deno was created or envisioned, um, this permission system like Node really poked holes into the V8 sandbox very early on with, with like, it's gonna be very difficult for Node to ever, ever, uh, reconcile this, this. Especially cuz the, some, some of the APIs that it, that it exposes are just so incredibly low level that like, I don't know, you can mutate random memory within your process. Um, which like if you want to have a, a secure sandbox like that just doesn't work. Um, it's not compatible. So there was really needed to be a place where you could explore this, um, direction and, and see if it worked. And Deno was that. Deno still is that, and I think Deno has outgrown that now into something which is much more usable as, as like a production ready runtime. And many people do use it, in production. And now Deno is on the path of slowly converging back with Node, um, in from both directions. Like Node is slowly becoming more standards compliant. and depending on who you ask this was, this was done because of Deno and some people said it would had already been going on and Deno just accelerated it. but that's not really relevant because the point is that like Node is becoming more standard compliant and, and the other direction is Deno is becoming more node compliant. Like Deno is implementing node compatibility layers that allow you to run code that was originally written for the node ecosystem in the standards compliant run time. so through those two directions, the, the run times are sort of, um, going back towards each other. I don't think they'll ever merge. but we're, we're, we're getting to a point here pretty soon, I think, where it doesn't really matter what runtime you write for, um, because you'll be able to write code written for one runtime in the other runtime relatively easily. [00:12:03] Jeremy: If you're saying the two are becoming closer to one another, becoming closer to the web standard that runs in the browser, if you're talking to someone who's currently developing in node, what's the incentive for them to switch to Deno versus using Node and then hope that eventually they'll kind of meet in the middle. [00:12:26] Luca: Yeah, so I think, like Deno is a lot more than just a runtime, right? Like a runtime executes JavaScript, Deno executes JavaScript, it executes type script. But Deno is so much more than that. Like Deno has a built-in format, or it has a built-in linter. It has a built-in testing framework, a built-in benching framework. It has a built-in Bundler, it, it like can create self-hosted, um, executables. yeah, like Bundle your code and the Deno executable into a single executable that you can trip off to someone. Um, it has a dependency analyzer. It has editor integrations. it has, Yeah. Like I could go on for hours, (laughs) about all of the auxiliary tooling that's inside of Deno, that's not a JavaScript runtime. And also Deno as a JavaScript runtime is just more standards compliant than any of the other servers at Runtimes right now. So if, if you're really looking for something which is standards complaint, which is gonna like live on forever, then it's, you know, like you cannot kill off the Fetch API ever. The Fetch API is going to live forever because Chrome supports it. Um, and the same goes for local storage and, and like, I don't know, the Blob API and all these other web APIs like they, they have shipped and browsers, which means that they will be supported until the end of time. and yeah, maybe Node has also reached that with its api probably to some extent. but yeah, don't underestimate the power of like 3 billion Chrome users. that would scream immediately if the Fetch API stopped working Right? [00:13:50] Jeremy: Yeah, I, I think maybe what it sounds like also is that because you're using the API that's used in the browser places where you deploy JavaScript applications in the future, you would hope that those would all settle on using that same API so that if you were using Deno, you could host it at different places and not worry about, do I need to use a special API maybe that you would in node? WinterCG (W3C group for server side JavaScript) [00:14:21] Luca: Yeah, exactly. And this is actually something which we're specifically working towards. So, I don't know if you've, you've heard of WinterCG? It's a, it's a community group at the W3C that, um, CloudFlare and, and Deno and some others including Shopify, have started last year. Um, we're essentially, we're trying to standardize the concept of what a server side JavaScript runtime is and what APIs it needs to have available to be standards compliant. Um, and essentially making this portability sort of written down somewhere and like write down exactly what code you can write and expect to be portable. And we can see like that all of the big, all of the big players that are involved in, in, um, building JavaScript run times right now are, are actively, engaged with us at WinterCG and are actively building towards this future. So I would expect that any code that you write today, which runs. in Deno, runs in CloudFlare, workers runs on Netlify Edge functions, runs on Vercel's Edge, runtime, runs on Shopify Oxygen, is going to run on the other four. Um, of, of those within the next couple years here, like I think the APIs of these is gonna converge to be essentially the same. there's obviously gonna always be some, some nuances. Um, like, I don't know, Chrome and Firefox and Safari don't perfectly have the same API everywhere, right? Like Chrome has some web Bluetooth capabilities that Safari doesn't, or Firefox has some, I don't know, non-standard extensions to the error object, which none of the other runtimes do. But overall you can expect these front times to mostly be aligned. yeah, and I, I think that's, that's really, really, really excellent and that, that's I think really one of the reasons why one should really consider, like building for, for this standard runtime because it, it just guarantees that you'll be able to host this somewhere in five years time and 10 years time, with, with very little effort. Like even if Deno goes under or CloudFlare goes under, or, I don't know, nobody decides to maintain node anymore. It'll be easy to, to run somewhere else. And also I expect that the big cloud vendors will ultimately, um, provide, manage offerings for, for the standards compliant JavaScript on time as well. Is Node part of WinterCG? [00:16:36] Jeremy: And this WinterCG group is Node a part of that as well? [00:16:41] Luca: Um, yes, we've invited Node, um, to join, um, due to the complexities of how node's, internal decision making system works. Node is not officially a member of WinterCG. Um, there is some individual members of the node, um, technical steering committee, which are participating. for example, um, James m Snell is, is the co-chair, is my co-chair on, on WinterCG. He also works at CloudFlare. He's also a node, um, TSC member, Mateo Colina, who has been, um, instrumental to getting fetch landed in Node, um, is also actively involved. So Node is involved, but because Node is node and and node's decision making process works the way it does, node is not officially listed anywhere as as a member. but yeah, they're involved and maybe they'll be a member at some point. But, yeah, let's. , see (laughs) [00:17:34] Jeremy: Yeah. And, and it, so it, it sounds like you're thinking that's more of a, a governance or a organizational aspect of note than it is a, a technical limitation. Is that right? [00:17:47] Luca: Yeah. I obviously can't speak for the node technical steering committee, but I know that there's a significant chunk of the node technical steering committee that is, very favorable towards, uh, standards compliance. but parts of the Node technical steering committee are also not, they are either indifferent or are actively, I dunno if they're still actively working against this, but have actively worked against standards compliance in the past. And because the node governance structure is very, yeah, is, is so, so open and let's, um, and let's, let's all these voices be heard, um, that just means that decision making processes within Node can take so long, like. . This is also why the fetch API took eight years to ship. Like this was not a technical problem. and it is also not a technical problem. That Node does not have URL pattern support or, the file global or, um, that the web crypto API was not on this, on the global object until like late last year, right? Like, these are not technical problems, these are decision making problems. Um, and yeah, that was also part of the reason why we started Deno as, as like a separate thing, because like you can try to innovate node, from the inside, but innovating node from the inside is very slow, very tedious, and requires a lot of fighting. And sometimes just showing somebody, from the outside like, look, this is the bright future you could have, makes them more inclined to do something. Why it takes so long to ship new features in Node [00:19:17] Jeremy: Do, do you have a sense for, you gave the example of fetch taking eight years to, to get into node. Do you, do you have a sense of what the typical objection is to, to something like that? Like I, I understand there's a lot of people involved, but why would somebody say, I, I don't want this [00:19:35] Luca: Yeah. So for, for fetch specifically, there was a, there was many different kinds of concerns. Um, one of the, I, I can maybe list two of them. One of them was for example, that the fetch API is not a good API and as such, node should not have it. which is sort of. missing the point of, because it's a standard API, how good or bad the API is is much less relevant because if you can share the API, you can also share a wrapper that's written around the api. Right? and then the other concern was, node does need fetch because Node already has an HTTP API. Um, so, so these are both kind of examples of, of concerns that people had for a long time, which it took a long time to either convince these people or, or to, push the change through anyway. and this is also the case for, for other things like, for example, web, crypto, um, like why do we need web crypto? We already have node crypto, or why do we need yet another streams? Implementation node already has four different streams implementations. Like, why do we need web streams? and the, the. Like, I don't know if you know this XKCD of, there's 14 competing standards. so let's write a 15th standard, to unify them all. And then at the end we just have 15 competing standards. Um, so I think this is also the kind of concern that people were concerned about, but I, I think what we've seen here is that this is really not a concern that one needs to have because it ends up that, or it turns out in the end that if you implement web APIs, people will use web APIs and will use web APIs only for their new code. it takes a while, but we're seeing this with ESM versus require like new code written with require much less common than it was two years ago. And, new code now using like Xhr, whatever it's called, form request or. You know, the one, I mean, compared to using Fetch, like nobody uses that name. Everybody uses Fetch. Um, and like in Node, if you write a little script, like you're gonna use Fetch, you're not gonna use like Nodes, htp, dot get API or whatever. and we're gonna see the same thing with Readable Stream. We're gonna see the same thing with Web Crypto. We're gonna see, see the same thing with Blob. I think one of the big ones where, where Node is still, I, I, I don't think this is one that's ever gonna get solved, is the, the Buffer global and Node. like we have the Uint8, this Uint8 global, um, and like all the run times including browsers, um, and Buffer is like a super set of that, but it's in global scope. So it, it's sort of this non-standard extension of unit eight array that people in node like to use and it's not compatible with anything else. Um, but because it's so easy to get at, people use it anyway. So those are, those are also kind of problems that, that we'll have to deal with eventually. And maybe that means that at some point the buffer global gets deprecated and I don't know, probably can never get removed. But, um, yeah, these are kinds of conversations that the no TSE is going have to have internally in, I don't know, maybe five years. Write once, have it run on any hosting platform [00:22:37] Jeremy: Yeah, so at a high level, What's shipped in the browser, it went through the ECMAScript approval process. People got it into the browser. Once it's in the browser, probably never going away. And because of that, it's safe to build on top of that for these, these server run times because it's never going away from the browser. And so everybody can kind of use it into the future and not worry about it. Yeah. [00:23:05] Luca: Exactly. Yeah. And that's, and that's excluding the benefit that also if you have code that you can write once and use in both the browser and the server side around time, like that's really nice. Um, like that, that's the other benefit. [00:23:18] Jeremy: Yeah. I think that's really powerful. And that right now, when someone's looking at running something in CloudFlare workers versus running something in the browser versus running something in. it's, I think a lot of people make the assumption it's just JavaScript, so I can use it as is. But it, it, there are at least currently, differences in what APIs are available to you. [00:23:43] Luca: Yep. Yep. Why bundle so many things into Deno? [00:23:46] Jeremy: Earlier you were talking about how Deno is more than just the runtime. It has a linter, formatter, file watcher there, there's all sorts of stuff in there. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit to the, the reasoning behind that [00:24:00] Luca: Mm-hmm. [00:24:01] Jeremy: Having them all be separate things. [00:24:04] Luca: Yeah, so the, the reasoning here is essentially if you look at other modern run time or mo other modern languages, like Rust is a great example. Go is a great example. Even though Go was designed around the same time as Node, it has a lot of these same tools built in. And what it really shows is that if the ecosystem converges, like is essentially forced to converge on a single set of built-in tooling, a that built-in tooling becomes really, really excellent because everybody's using it. And also, it means that if you open any project written by any go developer, any, any rest developer, and you look at the tests, you immediately understand how the test framework works and you immediately understand how the assertions work. Um, and you immediately understand how the build system works and you immediately understand how the dependency imports work. And you immediately understand like, I wanna run this project and I wanna restart it when my file changes. Like, you immediately know how to do that because it's the same everywhere. Um, and this kind of feeling of having to learn one tool and then being able to use all of the projects, like being able to con contribute to open source when you're moving jobs, whatever, like between personal projects that you haven't touched in two years, you know, like being able to learn this once and then use it everywhere is such an incredibly powerful tool. Like, people don't appreciate this until they've used a runtime or, or, or language which provides this to them. Like, you can go to any go developer and ask them if they would like. There, there's this, there's this saying in the Go ecosystem, um, that Go FMT is nobody's favorite, but, or, uh, wait, no, I don't remember what the, how the saying goes, but the saying essentially implies that the way that go FMT formats code, maybe not everybody likes, but everybody loves go F M T anyway, because it just makes everything look the same. And like, you can read your friend's code, your, your colleagues code, your new jobs code, the same way that you did your code from two years ago. And that's such an incredibly powerful feeling. especially if it's like well integrated into your IDE you clone a repository, open that repository, and like your testing panel on the left hand side just populates with all the tests, and you can click on them and run them. And if an assertion fails, it's like the standard output format that you're already familiar with. And it's, it's, it's a really great feeling. and if you don't believe me, just go try it out and, and then you will believe me, (laughs) [00:26:25] Jeremy: Yeah. No, I, I'm totally with you. I, I think it's interesting because with JavaScript in particular, it feels like the default in the community is the opposite, right? There's so many different ways. Uh, there are so many different build tools and testing frameworks and, formatters, and it's very different than, like you were mentioning, a go or a Rust that are more recent languages where they just include that, all Bundled in. Yeah. [00:26:57] Luca: Yeah, and I, I think you can see this as well in, in the time that average JavaScript developer spends configuring their tooling compared to a rest developer. Like if I write Rust, I write Rust, like all day, every day. and I spend maybe two, 3% of my time configuring Rust tooling like. Doing dependency imports, opening a new project, creating a format or config file, I don't know, deleting the build directory, stuff like that. Like that's, that's essentially what it means for me to configure my rest tooling. Whereas if you compare this to like a front-end JavaScript project, like you have to deal with making sure that your React version is compatible with your React on version, it's compatible with your next version is compatible with your ve version is compatible with your whatever version, right? this, this is all not automatic. Making sure that you use the right, like as, as a front end developer, you developer. You don't have just NPM installed, no. You have NPM installed, you have yarn installed, you have PNPM installed. You probably have like, Bun installed. And, and, and I don't know to use any of these, you need to have corepack enabled in Node and like you need to have all of their global bin directories symlinked into your or, or, or, uh, included in your path. And then if you install something and you wanna update it, you don't know, did I install it with yarn? Did I install it with N pNPM? Like this is, uh, significant complexity and you, you tend to spend a lot of time dealing with dependencies and dealing with package management and dealing with like tooling configuration, setting up esent, setting up prettier. and I, I think that like, especially Prettier, for example, really showed, was, was one of the first things in the JavaScript ecosystem, which was like, no, we're not gonna give you a config where you, that you can spend like six hours configuring, it's gonna be like seven options and here you go. And everybody used it because, Nobody likes configuring things. It turns out, um, and even though there's always the people that say, oh, well, I won't use your tool unless, like, we, we get this all the time. Like, I'm not gonna use Deno FMT because I can't, I don't know, remove the semicolons or, or use single quotes or change my tab width to 16. Right? Like, wait until all of your coworkers are gonna scream at you because you set the tab width to 16 and then see what they change it to. And then you'll see that it's actually the exact default that, everybody uses. So it'll, it'll take a couple more years. But I think we're also gonna get there, uh, like Node is starting to implement a, a test runner. and I, I think over time we're also gonna converge on, on, on, on like some standard build tools. Like I think ve, for example, is a great example of this, like, Doing a front end project nowadays. Um, like building new front end tooling that's not built on Vite Yeah. Don't like, Vite's it's become the standard and I think we're gonna see that in a lot more places. We should settle on what tools to use [00:29:52] Jeremy: Yeah, though I, I think it's, it's tricky, right? Because you have so many people with their existing projects. You have people who are starting new projects and they're just searching the internet for what they should use. So you're, you're gonna have people on web pack, you're gonna have people on Vite, I guess now there's gonna be Turbo pack, I think is another one that's [00:30:15] Luca: Mm-hmm. [00:30:16] Jeremy: There's, there's, there's all these different choices, right? And I, I think it's, it's hard to, to really settle on one, I guess, [00:30:26] Luca: Yeah, [00:30:27] Jeremy: uh, yeah. [00:30:27] Luca: like I, I, I think this is, this is in my personal opinion also failure of the Node Technical Steering committee, for the longest time to not decide that yes, we're going to bless this as the standard format for Node, and this is the standard package manager for Node. And they did, they sort of did, like, they, for example, node Blessed NPM as the standard, package manager for N for for node. But it didn't innovate on npm. Like no, the tech nodes, tech technical steering committee did not force NPM to innovate NPMs, a private company ultimately bought by GitHub and they had full control over how the NPM cli, um, evolved and nobody forced NPM to, to make sure that package install times are six times faster than they were. Three years ago, like nobody did that. so it didn't happen. And I think this is, this is really a failure of, of the, the, the, yeah, the no technical steering committee and also the wider JavaScript ecosystem of not being persistent enough with, with like focus on performance, focus on user experience, and, and focus on simplicity. Like things got so out of hand and I'm happy we're going in the right direction now, but, yeah, it was terrible for some time. (laughs) Node compatibility layer [00:31:41] Jeremy: I wanna talk a little bit about how we've been talking about Deno in the context of you just using Deno using its own standard library, but just recently last year you added a compatibility shim where people are able to use node libraries in Deno. [00:32:01] Luca: Mm-hmm. [00:32:01] Jeremy: And I wonder if you could talk to, like earlier you had mentioned that Deno has, a different permissions model. on the website it mentions that Deno's HTTP server is two times faster than node in a Hello World example. And I'm wondering what kind of benefits people will still get from Deno if they choose to use packages from Node. [00:32:27] Luca: Yeah, it's a great question. Um, so I think a, again, this is sort of a like, so just to clarify what we actually implemented, like what we have is we have support for you to import NPM packages. Um, so you can import any NPM package from NPM, from your type script or JavaScript ECMAScript module, um, that you have, you already have for your Deno code. Um, and we will under the hood, make sure that is installed somewhere in some directory globally. Like PNPM does. There's no local node modules folder you have to deal with. There's no package of Jason you have to deal with. Um, and there's no, uh, package. Jason, like versioning things you need to deal with. Like what you do is you do import cowsay from NPM colon cowsay at one, and that will import cowsay with like the semver tag one. Um, and it'll like do the sim resolution the same way node does, or the same way NPM does rather. And what you get from that is that essentially it gives you like this backdoor to a callout to all of the existing node code that Isri been written, right? Like you cannot expect that Deno developers, write like, I don't know. There was this time when Deno did not really have that many, third party modules yet. It was very early on, and I don't know the, you either, if you wanted to connect to Postgres and there was no Postgres driver available, then the solution was to write your own Postgres driver. And that is obviously not great. Um, (laughs) . So the better solution here is to let users for these packages where there's no Deno native or, or, or web native or standard native, um, package for this yet that is importable with url. Um, specifiers, you can import this from npm. Uh, so it's sort of this like backdoor into the existing NPM ecosystem. And we explicitly, for example, don't allow you to, create a package.json file or, import bare node specifiers because we don't, we, we want to stay standards compliant here. Um, but to make this work effectively, we need to give you this little back door. Um, and inside of this back door. All hell is like, or like everything is terrible inside there, right? Like inside there you can do bare specifiers and inside there you can like, uh, there's package.json and there's crazy node resolution and underscore underscore DIRNAME and common js. And like all of that stuff is supported inside of this backdoor to make all the NPM packages work. But on the outside it's exposed as this nice, ESM only, NPM specifiers. and the, the reason you would want to use this over, like just using node directly is because again, like you wanna use TypeScript, no config, like necessary. You want to use, you wanna have a formatter you wanna have a linter, you wanna have tooling that like does testing and benchmarking and compiling or whatever. All of that's built in. You wanna run this on the edge, like close to your users and like 30 different, 35 different, uh, points of presence. Um, it's like, Okay, push it to your git repository. Go to this website, click a button two times, and it's running in 35 data centers. like this is, this is the kind of ex like developer experience that you can, you do not get. You, I will argue that you cannot get with Node right now. Like even if you're using something like ts-node, it is not possible to get the same level of developer experience that you do with Deno. And the, the, the same like speed at which you can iterate, iterate on your projects, like create new projects, iterate on them is like incredibly fast in Deno. Like, I can open a, a, a folder on my computer, create a single file, may not ts, put some code in there and then call Deno Run may not. And that's it. Like I don't, I did not need to do NPM install I did not need to do NPM init -y and remove the license and version fields and from, from the generated package.json and like set private to true and whatever else, right? It just all works out of the box. And I think that's, that's what a lot of people come to deno for and, and then ultimately stay for. And also, yeah, standards compliance. So, um, things you build in Deno now are gonna work in five, 10 years, with no hassle. Node shims and testing [00:36:39] Jeremy: And so with this compatibility layer or this, this shim, is it where the node code is calling out to node APIs and you're replacing those with Deno compatible equivalents? [00:36:54] Luca: Yeah, exactly. Like for example, we have a shim in place that shims out the node crypto API on top of the web crypto api. Like sort of, some, some people may be familiar with this in the form of, um, Browserify shims. if anybody still remembers those, it's essentially. , your front end tooling, you were able to import from like node crypto in your front end projects and then behind the scenes your web packs or your browser replies or whatever would take that import from node crypto and would replace it with like the shim that was essentially exposed the same APIs node crypto, but under the hood, wasn't implemented with native calls, but was implemented on top of web crypto, or implemented in user land even. And Deno does something similar. there's a couple edge cases of APIs that there's, where, where we do not expose the underlying thing that we shim to, to end users, outside of the node shim. So like there's some, some APIs that I don't know if I have a good example, like node nextTick for example. Um, like to properly be able to shim node nextTick, you need to like implement this within the event loop in the runtime. and. , you don't need this in Deno, because Deno, you use the web standard queueMicrotask to, to do this kind of thing. but to be able to shim it correctly and run node applications correctly, we need to have this sort of like backdoor into some ugly APIs, um, which, which natively integrate in the runtime, but, yeah, like allow, allow this node code to run. [00:38:21] Jeremy: A, anytime you're replacing a component with a, a shim, I think there's concerns about additional bugs or changes in behavior that can be introduced. Is that something that you're seeing and, and how are you accounting for that? [00:38:38] Luca: Yeah, that's, that's an excellent question. So this is actually a, a great concern that we have all the time. And it's not just even introducing bugs, sometimes it's removing bugs. Like sometimes there's bugs in the node standard library which are there, and people are relying on these bugs to be there for the applications to function correctly. And we've seen this a lot, and then we implement this and we implement from scratch and we don't make that same bug. And then the test fails or then the application fails. So what we do is, um, we actually run node's test suite against Deno's Shim layer. So Node has a very extensive test suite for its own standard library, and we can run this suite against, against our shims to find things like this. And there's still edge cases, obviously, which node, like there was, maybe there's a bug which node was not even aware of existing. Um, where maybe this, like it's is, it's now standard, it's now like intended behavior because somebody relies on it, right? Like the second somebody relies on, on some non-standard or some buggy behavior, it becomes intended. Um, but maybe there was no test that explicitly tests for this behavior. Um, so in that case we'll add our own tests to, to ensure that. But overall we can already catch a lot of these by just testing, against, against node's tests. And then the other thing is we run a lot of real code, like we'll try run Prisma and we'll try run Vite and we'll try run NextJS and we'll try run like, I don't know, a bunch of other things that people throw at us and, check that they work and they work and there's no bugs. Then we did our job well and our shims are implemented correctly. Um, and then there's obviously always the edge cases where somebody did something absolutely crazy that nobody thought possible. and then they'll open an issue on the Deno repo and we scratch our heads for three days and then we'll fix it. And then in the next release there'll be a new bug that we added to make the compatibility with node better. so yeah, but I, yeah. Running tests is the, is the main thing running nodes test. Performance should be equal or better [00:40:32] Jeremy: Are there performance implications? If someone is running an Express App or an NextJS app in Deno, will they get any benefits from the Deno runtime and performance? [00:40:45] Luca: Yeah. It's actually, there is performance implications and they're usually. The opposite of what people think they are. Like, usually when you think of performance implications, it's always a negative thing, right? It's always okay. Like you, it's like a compromise. like the shim layer must be slower than the real node, right? It's not like we can run express faster than node can run, express. and obviously not everything is faster in Deno than it is in node, and not everything is faster in node than it is in Deno. It's dependent on the api, dependent on, on what each team decided to optimize. Um, and this also extends to other run times. Like you can always cherry pick results, like, I don't know, um, to, to make your runtime look faster in certain benchmarks. but overall, what really matters is that you do not like, the first important step for for good node compatibility is to make sure that if somebody runs your code or runs their node code in Deno or your other run type or whatever, It performs at least the same. and then anything on top of that great cherry on top. Perfect. but make sure the baselines is at least the same. And I think, yeah, we have very few APIs where we behave, where we, where, where like there's a significant performance degradation in Deno compared to Node. Um, and like we're actively working on these things. like Deno is not a, a, a project that's done, right? Like we have, I think at this point, like 15 or 16 or 17 engineers working on Deno, spanning across all of our different projects. And like, we have a whole team that's dedicated to performance, um, and a whole team that's dedicated node compatibility. so like these things get addressed and, and we make patch releases every week and a minor release every four weeks. so yeah, it's, it's not a standstill. It's, uh, constantly improving. What should go into the standard library? [00:42:27] Jeremy: Uh, something that kind of makes Deno stand out as it's standard library. There's a lot more in there than there is in in the node one. [00:42:38] Luca: Mm-hmm. [00:42:39] Jeremy: Uh, I wonder if you could speak to how you make decisions on what should go into it. [00:42:46] Luca: Yeah, so early on it was easier. Early on, the, the decision making process was essentially, is this something that a top 100 or top 1000 NPM library implements? And if it is, let's include it. and the decision making is still short of based on that. But right now we've already implemented most of the low hanging fruit. So things that we implement now are, have, have discussion around them whether we should implement them. And we have a process where, well we have a whole team of engineers on our side and we also have community members that, that will review prs and, and, and make comments. Open issues and, and review those issues, to sort of discuss the pros and cons of adding any certain new api. And sometimes it's also that somebody opens an issue that's like, I want, for example, I want an API to, to concatenate two unit data arrays together, which is something you can really easily do node with buffer dot con cat, like the scary buffer thing. and there's no standards way of doing that right now. So we have to have a little utility function that does that. But in parallel, we're thinking about, okay, how do we propose, an addition to the web standards now that makes it easy to concatenate iterates in the web standards, right? yeah, there's a lot to it. Um, but it's, it's really, um, it's all open, like all of our, all of our discussions for, for, additions to the standard library and things like that. It's all, all, uh, public on GitHub and the GitHub issues and GitHub discussions and GitHub prs. Um, so yeah, that's, that's where we do that. [00:44:18] Jeremy: Yeah, cuz to give an example, I was a little surprised to see that there is support for markdown front matter built into the standard library. But when you describe it as we look at the top a hundred thousand packages, are people looking at markdown? Are they looking at front matter? I, I'm sure there's a fair amount that are so that that makes sense. [00:44:41] Luca: Yeah, like it sometimes, like that one specifically was driven by, like, our team was just building a lot of like little blog pages and things like that. And every time it was either you roll your own front matter part or you look for one, which has like a subtle bug here and the other one has a subtle bug there and really not satisfactory with any of them. So, we, we roll that into the standard library. We add good test coverage for it good, add good documentation for it, and then it's like just a resource that people can rely on. Um, and you don't, you then don't have to make the choice of like, do I use this library to do my front meta parsing or the other library? No, you just use the one that's in the standard library. It's, it's also part of this like user experience thing, right? Like it's just a much nicer user experience, not having to make a choice, about stuff like that. Like completely inconsequential stuff. Like which library do we use to do front matter parsing? (laughs) [00:45:32] Jeremy: yeah. I mean, I think when, when that stuff is not there, then I think the temptation is to go, okay, let me see what node modules there are that will let me parse the front matter. Right. And then it, it sounds like probably ideally you want people to lean more on what's either in the standard library or what's native to the Deno ecosystem. Yeah. [00:46:00] Luca: Yeah. Like the, the, one of the big benefits is that the Deno Standard Library is implemented on top of web standards, right? Like it's, it's implemented on top of these standard APIs. so for example, there's node front matter libraries which do not run in the browser because the browser does not have the buffer global. maybe it's a nice library to do front matter pricing with, but. , you choose it and then three days later you decide that actually this code also needs to run in the browser, and then you need to go switch your front matter library. Um, so, so those are also kind of reasons why we may include something in Strand Library, like maybe there's even really good module already to do something. Um, but if there's certain reliance on specific node features that, um, we would like that library to also be compatible with, with, with web standards, we'll, uh, we might include in the standard library, like for example, YAML Parser, um, or the YAML Parser in the standard library is, is a fork of, uh, of the node YAML module. and it's, it's essentially that, but cleaned up and, and made to use more standard APIs rather than, um, node built-ins. [00:47:00] Jeremy: Yeah, it kind of reminds me a little bit of when you're writing a front end application, sometimes you'll use node packages to do certain things and they won't work unless you have a compatibility shim where the browser can make use of certain node APIs. And if you use the APIs that are built into the browser already, then you won't, you won't need to deal with that sort of thing. [00:47:26] Luca: Yeah. Also like less Bundled size, right? Like if you don't have to shim that, that's less, less code you have to ship to the client. WebAssembly use cases [00:47:33] Jeremy: Another thing I've seen with Deno is it supports running web assembly. [00:47:40] Luca: Mm-hmm. [00:47:40] Jeremy: So you can export functions and call them from type script. I was curious if you've seen practical uses of this in production within the context of Deno. [00:47:53] Luca: Yeah. there's actually a Bunch of, of really practical use cases, so probably the most executed bit of web assembly inside of Deno right now is actually yes, build like, yes, build has a web assembly, build like yeses. Build is something that's written and go. You have the choice of either running. Um, natively in machine code as, as like an ELF process on, on Linux or on on Windows or whatever. Or you can use the web assembly build and then it runs in web assembly. And the web assembly build is maybe 50% slower than the, uh, native build, but that is still significantly faster than roll up or, or, or, or I don't know, whatever else people use nowadays to do JavaScript Bun, I don't know. I, I just use es build always, um, So, um, for example, the Deno website, is running on Deno Deploy. And Deno Deploy does not allow you to run Subprocesses because it's, it's like this edge run time, which, uh, has certain security permissions that it's, that are not granted, one of them being sub-processes. So it needs to execute ES build. And the way it executes es build is by running them inside a web assembly. Um, because web assembly is secure, web assembly is, is something which is part of the JavaScript sandbox. It's inside the JavaScript sandbox. It doesn't poke any holes out. Um, so it's, it's able to run within, within like very strict security context. . Um, and then other examples are, I don't know, you want to have a HTML sanitizer, which is actually built on the real HTML par in a browser. we, we have an hdml sanitizer called com or, uh, ammonia, I don't remember. There's, there's an HTML sanitizer library on denoland slash x, which is built on the html parser from Firefox. Uh, which like ensures essentially that your html, like if you do HTML sanitization, you need to make sure your HTML par is correct, because if it's not, you might like, your browser might parse some HTML one way and your sanitizer pauses it another way and then it doesn't sanitize everything correctly. Um, so there's this like the Firefox HTML parser compiled to web assembly. Um, you can use that to. HTML sanitization, or the Deno documentation generation tool, for example. Uh, Deno Doc, there's a web assembly built for it that allows you to programmatically, like generate documentation for, for your type script modules. Um, yeah, and, and also like, you know, deno fmt is available as a WebAssembly module for programmatic access and a Bunch of other internal Deno, programs as well. Like, or, uh, like components, not programs. [00:50:20] Jeremy: What are some of the current limitations of web assembly and Deno for, for example, from web assembly, can I make HTTP requests? Can I read files? That sort of thing. [00:50:34] Luca: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So web assembly, like when you spawn as web assembly, um, they're called instances, WebAssembly instances. It runs inside of the same vm, like the same, V8 isolate is what they're called, but. it does not have it, it's like a completely fresh sandbox, sort of, in the sense that I told you that between a runtime and like an engine essentially implements no IO calls, right? And a runtime does, like a runtime, pokes holds into the, the, the engine. web assembly by default works the same way that there is no holes poked into its sandbox. So you have to explicitly poke some holes. Uh, if you want to do HTTP calls, for example, when, when you create web assembly instance, it gives you, or you can give it something called imports, uh, which are essentially JavaScript function bindings, which you can call from within the web assembly. And you can use those function bindings to do anything you can from JavaScript. You just have to pass them through explicitly. and. . Yeah. Depending on how you write your web assembly, like if you write it in Rust, for example, the tooling is very nice and you can just call some JavaScript code from your Rust, and then the build system will automatically make sure that the right function bindings are passed through with the right names. And like, you don't have to deal with anything. and if you're writing go, it's slightly more complicated. And if you're writing like raw web assembly, like, like the web assembly, text format and compiling that to a binary, then like you have to do everything yourself. Right? It's, it's sort of the difference between writing C and writing JavaScript. Like, yeah. What level of abstraction do you want? It's definitely possible though, and that's for limitations. it, the same limitations as, as existing browsers apply. like the web assembly support in Deno is equivalent to the web assembly support in Chrome. so you can do, uh, many things like multi-threading and, and stuff like that already. but especially around, shared mutable memory, um, and having access to that memory from JavaScript. That's something which is a real difficulty with web assembly right now. yeah, growing web assembly memory is also rather difficult right now. There's, there's a, there's a couple inherent limitations right now with web assembly itself. Um, but those, those will be worked out over time. And, and Deno is like very up to date with the version of, of the standard, it, it implements, um, through v8. Like we're, we're, we're up to date with Chrome Beta essentially all the time. So, um, yeah. Any, anything you see in, in, in Chrome beta is gonna be in Deno already. Deno Deploy [00:52:58] Jeremy: So you talked a little bit about this before, the Deno team, they have their own, hosting. Platform called Deno Deploy. So I wonder if you could explain what that is. [00:53:12] Luca: Yeah, so Deno has this really nice, this really nice concept of permissions which allow you to, sorry, I'm gonna start somewhere slightly, slightly unrelated. Maybe it sounds like it's unrelated, but you'll see in a second. It's not unrelated. Um, Deno has this really nice permission system which allows you to sandbox Deno programs to only allow them to do certain operations. For example, in Deno, by default, if you try to open a file, it'll air out and say you don't have read permissions to read this file. And then what you do is you specify dash, dash allow read um, maybe you have to give it. they can either specify, allow, read, and then it'll grant to read access to the entire file system. Or you can explicitly specify files or folders or, any number of things. Same goes for right permissions, same goes for network permissions. Um, same goes for running subprocesses, all these kind of things. And by limiting your permissions just a little bit. Like, for example, by just disabling sub-processes and foreign function interface, but allowing everything else, allowing reeds and allowing network access and all that kind of stuff. we can run Deno programs in a way that is significantly more cost effective to you as the end user than, and, and like we can cold start them much faster than, like you may be able to with a, with a more conventional container based, uh, system. So what, what do you, what Deno Deploy is, is a way to run JavaScript or Deno Code, on our data centers all across the world with very little latency. like you can write some JavaScript code which execute, which serves HTTP requests deploy that to our platform, and then we'll make sure to spin that code up all across the world and have your users be able to access it through some URL or, or, or some, um, custom domain or something like that. and this is some, this is very similar to CloudFlare workers, for example. Um, and it's like Netlify Edge functions is built on top of Deno Deploy. Like Netlify Edge functions is implemented on top of Deno Deploy, um, through our sub hosting product. yeah, essentially Deno Deploy is, is, um, yeah, a cloud hosting service for JavaScript, um, which allows you to execute arbitrary JavaScript. and there there's a couple, like different directions we're going there. One is like more end user focused, where like you link your GitHub repository and. Like, we'll, we'll have a nice experience like you do with Netlify and Versace, that word like your commits automatically get deployed and you get preview deployments and all that kind of thing. for your backend code though, rather than for your front end websites. Although you could also write front-end websites and you know, obviously, and the other direction is more like business focused. Like you're writing a SaaS application and you want to allow the user to customize, the check like you're writing a SaaS application that provides users with the ability to write their own online store. Um, and you want to give them some ability to customize the checkout experience in some way. So you give them a little like text editor that they can type some JavaScript into. And then when, when your SaaS application needs to hit this code path, it sends a request to us with the code, we'll execute that code for you in a secure way. In a secure sandbox. You can like tell us you, this code only has access to like my API server and no other networks to like prevent data exfiltration, for example. and then you do, you can have all this like super customizable, code in inside of your, your SaaS application without having to deal with any of the operational complexities of scaling arbitrary code execution, or even just doing arbitrary code execution, right? Like it's, this is a very difficult problem and give it to someone else and we deal with it and you just get the benefits. yeah, that's Deno Deploy, and it's built by the same team that builds the Deno cli. So, um, all the, all of your favorite, like Deno cli, or, or Deno APIs are available in there. It's just as web standard is Deno, like you have fetch available, you have blob available, you have web crypto available, that kind of thing. yeah. Running code in V8 isolates [00:56:58] Jeremy: So when someone ships you their, their code and you run it, you mentioned that the, the cold start time is very low. Um, how, how is the code being run? Are people getting their own process? It sounds like it's not, uh, using containers. I wonder if you could explain a little bit about how that works. [00:57:20] Luca: Yeah, yeah, I can, I can give a high level overview of how it works. So, the way it works is that we essentially have a pool of, of Deno processes ready. Well, it's not quite Deno processes, it's not the same Deno CLI that you download. It's like a modified version of the Deno CLI based on the same infrastructure, that we have spun up across all of our different regions across the world, uh, across all of our different data centers. And then when we get a request, we'll route that request, um, the first time we get request for that, that we call them deployments, that like code, right? We'll take one of these idle Deno processes and will assign that code to run in that process, and then that process can go serve the requests. and these process, they're, they're, they're isolated and they're, you. it's essentially a V8 isolate. Um, and it's a very, very slim, it's like, it's a much, much, much slimmer version of the Deno cli essentially. Uh, which the only thing it can do is JavaScript execution and like, it can't even execute type script, for example, like type script is we pre-process it up front to make the the cold start faster. and then what we do is if you don't get a request for some amount of. , we'll, uh, spin down that, um, that isolate and, uh, we'll spin up a new idle one in its place. And then, um, if you get another request, I don't know, an hour later for that same deployment, we'll assign it to a new isolate. And yeah, that's a cold start, right? Uh, if you have an isolate which receives, or a, a deployment rather, which receives a Bunch of traffic, like let's say you receive a hundred requests per second, we can send a Bunch of that traffic to the same isolate. Um, and we'll make sure that if, that one isolate isn't able to handle that load, we'll spin it out over multiple isolates and we'll, we'll sort of load balance for you. Um, and we'll make sure to always send to the, to the point of present that's closest to, to the user making the request. So they get very minimal latency. and they get we, we've these like layers of load balancing in place and, and, and. I'm glossing over a Bunch of like security related things here about how these, these processes are actually isolated and how we monitor to ensure that you don't break out of these processes. And for example, Deno Deploy does, it looks like you have a file system cuz you can read files from the file system. But in reality, Deno Deploy does not have a file system. Like the file system is a global virtual file system. which is, is, uh, yeah, implemented completely differently than it is in Deno cli. But as an end user you don't have to care about that because the only thing you care about is that it has the exact same API as the Deno cli and you can run your code locally and if it works there, it's also gonna work in deploy. yeah, so that's, that's, that's kind of. High level of Deno Deploy. If, if any of this sounds interesting to anyone, by the way, uh, we're like very actively hiring on, on Deno Deploy. I happen to be the, the tech lead for, for a Deno Deploy product. So I'm, I'm always looking for engineers, to, to join our ranks and, and build cool distributed systems. Deno.com/jobs. [01:00:15] Jeremy: for people who aren't familiar with the isolates, are these each run in their own processes, or do you have a single process and that has a whole Bunch of isolates inside it? [01:00:28] Luca: in, in the general case, you can say that we run, uh, one isolate per process. but there's many asterisks on that. Um, because, it's, it's very complicated. I'll just say it's very complicated. Uh, in, in the general case though, it's, it's one isolate per process. Yeah. Configuring permissions [01:00:45] Jeremy: And then you touched a little bit on the permissions system. Like you gave the example of somebody could have a website where they let their users give them code to execute. how does it look in terms of specifying what permissions people have? Like, is that a configuration file? Are those flags you pass in? What, what does that look? [01:01:08] Luca: Yeah. So, so that product is called sub hosting. It's, um, slightly different from our end user platform. Um, it's essentially a service that allows you to, like, you email us, well, we'll send you a, um, onboard you, and then what you can do is you can send HTTP requests to a certain end point with a, authentication token and. a reference to some code to execute. And then what we'll do is, we'll, um, when we receive that HTTP request, we'll fetch the code, it's spin up and isolate, execute the code. execute the code. We serve the request, return you the response, um, and then we'll pipe logs to you and, and stuff like that. and the, and, and part of that is also when we, when we pull the, um, the, the code for to spin up the isolate, that code doesn't just include the code that we're executing, but also includes things like permissions, and, and various other, we call this isolate configuration. Um, you can inspect, this is all public. we have public docs for this at Deno.com/subhosting. I think. Yes, Deno.com/subhosting. [01:02:08] Jeremy: And is that built on top of something that's a part of the public Deno project, the open source part? Or is this specific to this sub hosting product? [01:02:19] Luca: Um, so the underlying engine or underlying runtime that executes the code here, like all of the code execution is performed by code, which is execute, which is public. Like all our, our, yeah, it uses, the Deno CLI just strips out a Bunch of stuff. It doesn't need the orchestration code, is not public. The orchestration code is proprietary. and yeah, if you have use cases that where you would like to run this orchestration code on your own infrastructure, and yeah, you have interesting use cases, please email us. We would love to hear from you. [01:02:51] Jeremy: separate from the, the orchestration, if it's more of an example of, let's say I deploy a Deno application and in the case that someone was able to get some, like malicious code or URLs into my application, could I tell Deno I only want this application to be able to call out to these URLs for just as an example? [01:03:18] Luca: yes. So it's, it's slightly more complicated because you can't actually tell it that it can only call out to specific URLs, but you can tell it to call out only to specific domains or IP addresses. which sort of the same thing, but, uh, just slightly different layer of abstraction. Yeah, you can do that. the allow net flag, allows you to specify a set of domains to allow requests to those domains. Yes, [01:03:41] Jeremy: I see. So on the, user facing open source part, there are configuration flags where you could say, I want this application to be able to access these domains, or I don't want it to be able to use IO or whatever [01:03:56] Luca: Yeah, exactly. [01:03:57] Jeremy: their, their flags. [01:03:59] Luca: Yeah. And, and on, on subhosting, this is done via the isolate configuration, which is like a JSON blob. And, yeah, like there, there's, it's, but ultimately it's all, it's all sort of, the same concept, just slightly different interfaces because like, like the, the subhosting one needs to be programmatic interface instead of, uh, something you type as an end user. Right? Why deploy your application on the edge? [01:04:20] Jeremy: One of the things you mentioned about Deno Deploy is it's, centered around deploying your application code to a Bunch of different locations. And you also mentioned the, the cold start times very low. could you kind of give the case for wanting your application code at a Bunch of different sites? [01:04:38] Luca: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So the, the, the, the main benefit of this is that when your user makes request for your application, um, you don't have to round trip back to, um, wherever centrally hosted your application would otherwise be. Like, if you are, a, a startup, even if you're just in the US for example, it's nice to have, points of presence, not just on one of the US coasts, but on both of the US coasts because that means that your round trip time is not gonna be a hundred milliseconds, but it's gonna be 20 milliseconds. this sort of relies on. the, like, this doesn't, there's obviously always the problem here that if your database lives in only one of the two coasts, you still need to do the round trip. And there's solutions to this, which is one caching, uh, that's the, the, the obvious sort of boring solution. Um, and then there's the solution of using databases which are built exactly for this. For example, CockroachDB is a database which is Postgres compatible, but it's really built for, um, global distribution and built for being able to shard data across regions and have different, um, primary regions for different, uh, shards of your, of your, of your tables. which means, for example, you could have the, your users on the East coast, their data could live on a database in the east coast and your users on the west coast, their data could live on a database on the west coast. and. your like admin panel needs to show all of them. It has an aggregate view over both coasts, right? like this is something which, which something like CockroachDB can do and it can be a really great, um, great thing here. And, we acknowledge that this is not something which is very easy to do right now and Deno tries to make everything very easy. So you can imagine that this is something we're working on and we're working on, on database solutions. And actually I should more generally say persistent solutions that allow you to persist data, in a way that makes sense for an edge system like this. Um, where the data has persisted close to users that need it. Consistency in local development vs deployment [01:06:44] Luca: Um, and data is cached around the world. and you still have sort of semantics, which, which are consistent with the semantics that you have, when you're locally developing your application. Like you don't want, for example, your local application development. , you don't want there to be like strong consistency there, but then in production you have eventual consistency where suddenly, I don't know, all of your code breaks because you didn't, your US west region didn't pick up the changes from US east because it's eventually consistent, right? I mean, this is a problem that we see with a lot of the existing solutions here. like specifically CloudFlare KV for example. CloudFlare KV is, um, a single primary is a system with, with single primary, um, right regions, where there's just a Bunch of caching going on. And this leads to ventral consistency, which can be very confusing for, for end user developers. Um, especially because if you're using this locally, the local emulator does not emulate the eventual consistency, right? so this, this, this can become very confusing very quickly. And so a, anything that we build in, in this persistence field, for example, we take very, we very seriously, um, Weigh these trade offs and make sure that if there's something that's eventually consistent, it's very clear and it works the same way, the same eventually consistent way in the cli. [01:08:03] Jeremy: So for someone, let's say they haven't made that jump yet to use a cockroach. They, they just have their. their database instance in AWS East or whatever. does having the code at the edge where it all ends up needing to go to east, is that better than having the code be located next to the database? [01:08:27] Luca: Yeah. Yeah. It, it, it totally does. Um, there's, there's def there's different, um, there, there's trade-offs here, right? Obviously, like if you have a, a, if you have an admin panel, for example, or a, a like user dashboard, which is very, very reliant on data from your database, and for every single request needs to fetch fresh data from the database, then maybe the trade off isn't worth it. But most applications are not like that. Most applications are, for example, you have a landing page and that landing page needs to do AB tests. and those AB tests are based on some heuristic that you can fetch from the database every five seconds. That's fine. Like, it doesn't need to be perfect, right? So you, you have caching in place, which, um, like by doing this caching locally to the user, um, and, and still being able to programmatically control this, like based on, I don't know, the user's user agent or, the IP address of the user or the region of the user, or. the past browsing history of that user through as, as measured by their cookies or whatever else, right? being able to do these highly user customized actions very close to the user, means that like latency is, is like, this is a much better user experience than if you have to do the roundtrip, especially if you're a, a startup or, or, or, or a, um, service which is globally distributed and, and serves not just users in the US or the EU but like all across the world. Caching options [01:09:52] Jeremy: And when you talk about caching in the context of Deno Deploy, is there a cache native to the system or are you expecting someone to have, uh, a Redis or a memcached, that sort of thing? [01:10:07] Luca: Yeah. So Deno Deploy, actually has, there's a built, there's a, there's a web cache api, um, which is also the web cache API that's used by service workers and, and others. and CloudFlare also implements this cache api. Um, and this is something that's implemented in Deno cli, and it's gonna be coming to Deploy this quarter, which is, that's the native way to do caching, and otherwise you can also use Redis you can use services like Upstash or, uh, even like primitive in-memory caches where it's just an LRU that's in memory, like a, like a JavaScript data structure, right? or even just a JavaScript map or JavaScript object, with a, with a time on it. And you automatically, and like every time you read from it and the time is above some certain threshold, you delete the cache and go fetch it again, right? Like this is, there's many things that you could consider a cache that are not like Redis or, or, or, or like the web cache api. So there's, there's ways to do that. And there's also a Bunch of, like, modules on, in the standard library, or not in the standard library story in the, in the third party module registry and also on NPM that you can use to, to implement different cache behaviors. [01:11:15] Jeremy: And when you give the example of a in memory cache, when you're running in Deno deploy, you're running in these isolates, which presumably can be shut down at any time. So what kind of guarantees do users have that whatever they put into memory will still be there? [01:11:34] Luca: none like the, it's, it's a cache, right? The cache can be evicted at any time. Your isolate can be restarted at any time. It can be shut down. You can be moved to a different region. The data center could go for, go down for maintenance. Like this is something your application has to be built in, in a way that it is tolerant to, to restarts essentially. but because it's a cache, that's fine. Because if the cache expires or, or, or the cache is cleared through some external means, the worst thing that happens is that you have a cold request again, right? And, if you're serving like a hundred requests a second, I can essentially guarantee to you that not every single request will invoke a cold start. Like, I can guarantee to you that probably less than 0.1% of requests will, will cause a cold start. this is not like SLA anywhere. Um, because it's like totally up to, to however the, the system decides to scale you. but yeah, like it's, it, it would be very wasteful for us, for example, to spin up a new isolate for every request. So we don't, we reuse isolates wherever possible. yeah. It's like it's in our best interest to not cold start you, um, because it's expensive for us to do all the CPU work to, to cold start an isolate, right? Working with CDNs [01:12:47] Jeremy: and typically with applications, people will put a, a CDN in front and they'll use things like cache control headers to be able to serve straight from the CDN Is that a supported use case with Deno Deploy or are there anything that, anything that people should be aware of when they're doing that sort of thing? [01:13:09] Luca: Yeah, so you can do that. Um, like you could put a cache in front of Deploy but in most cases it's really not necessary. Um, because the main reasons people use CDNs is, it is essentially to like do this global distribution problem, right? Like you, you want to be able to cache close to users, but if your end application is already executing close to users, the cost of a, of a, of serving something, like serving a request from a JavaScript cache is like marginal. It's so low. there's, there's like no nearly no CPU time involved here. it's, it's network bandwidth. That's the, that's the limiting factor and that's the limiting factor for all CDNs. Uh, so, so whether you're serving on Deploy or you have a, a separate CDN that you put in front of it, hmm. not really that big a difference. Like you can do it. but I don't know. Deno.com doesn't, or, or, and Deno.land, like they don't have a CDN in front of them. They're running bare on, on Deno Deploy and, yeah, it's fine. [01:14:06] Jeremy: So for, even for things like images, for example, something that. Somebody might store in object storage and put a CDN in in front. [01:14:17] Luca: Mm-hmm. [01:14:18] Jeremy: are you suggesting that people could put it on Deno deployed directly or just kind of curious what your thoughts are there? [01:14:26] Luca: Yeah. Uh, like if you have a blog and your profile image is, is part of your blog, right? And you can put that in your static file folder and serve that directly from your Deno Deploy application, like that's totally cool. Uh, you should do that because that's obvious and that's the obvious way to do things. if you're specifically building like a, image serving CDN , go reach out to us because we'd love to work with you. But also, um, like there's probably different constraints that you have. Um, like you probably very, very, very much care about network bandwidth costs, um, because that is like your one number one primary cost factor. so yeah, it's just what's the trade off? What, what trade-offs are you willing to make? Like does some other provider give you a lower network bandwidth cost? I would argue that if you're building an, like an image cdn, then you'd probably, like, even if you have to write your application code in Haskell or in whatever, it's probably worth it if you can get like a cent cheaper gigabyte transfer fees. just because that is like 100% of your, of your costs, um, is, is network bandwidth. So it's really a trade off based on what, what you're trying to build. Workloads currently not handled by Deno Deploy (Coming soon) [01:15:36] Jeremy: And if I understand correctly, Deno Deploy, it's centered around applications. That take HTTP requests. So it could be a website, it could be an API that sort of thing. and sometimes when people build applications, they have other things surrounding them. They'll, they'll need scheduled jobs. They may need some form of message queue, things like that. Things that don't necessarily fit into what Deno Deploy currently hosts. And so I wonder for things like that, what you recommend people would do while working with Deno Deploy. [01:16:16] Luca: Yeah. Great question. unfortunately I can't tell you too much about that without, like, spoiling everything (laughs), but what I'm gonna say is you should keep your eyes peeled on our blog over the next two to three months here. I consider message queues and like, especially message queues they are a persistence feature and we are currently working on persistence features. So yeah, that's all I'm gonna say. But, uh, you can expect Deno deployed to do things other than, um, just HTTP requests in the not so far. Future, and like cron jobs and stuff like that. Also, uh, at some point, yeah. Who's using deno? [01:16:54] Jeremy: All right. We'll look, we'll look out for that I guess as we wrap up, maybe you could give some examples of who's using Deno and, and what types of projects do you think are are ideal for Deno? [01:17:11] Luca: Yeah. yeah. Uh, Deno or Deno Deploy, like do you know, like, do you know as in all of Deno or Deno deploy specifically? [01:17:17] Jeremy: I, I mean, I guess either (laughs) [01:17:19] Luca: Okay. . Okay. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Uh, let's, let's do it. So, one really cool use case, for example, for Deno is Slack. Uh, slack has this app platform that they're building, um, which allows you to execute arbitrary JavaScript from within inside of Slack, in response to like slash commands and like actions. I dunno if you've ever seen like those little buttons you can have in messages if you press one of those buttons, like that can execute some Deno code. And Slack has built like this entire platform around that, and it makes use of Deno's like security features and, and built in tooling and, and all that kind of thing. Um, and that's really cool. And Netlify has built edge functions like, which is like a really, really awesome primitive they have for, for being able to customize outgoing requests to even, come up with completely new requests on the spot, um, as part of their CDN layer. Uh, also built on top of Deno. And GitHub has built, like this platform called, flat, which allows you to like sort of, um, on cron schedules, pull data, um, into git repositories and, and process that and, and post-process that and, and, and do do things with that. And it's integrated with GitHub actions, all kind of thing. It's kind of cool. Supabase also has some Edge has like an Edge functions product that's built on top of Deno. I'm just thinking about other, like those are, those are the obvious ones that are on the homepage. there's, I, I know for example, there's a image CDN actually that's serves images with Deno, like 400 million of them a day. kind of related to what we were talking about earlier. Actually, I don't know if it's still 400 million. I think it's more, um, the last data I got from them was like maybe eight months ago. So probably more at this point. Um, . Yeah. A Bunch of cool, cool, cool things like that. Um, we have like a really active discord channel and there's always people showcasing what kind of stuff they built in there that we have a showcase channel. I think that's like, if, if you're really interested in like what people are, what cool things people are building with, you know, that's like, that's a great place to, to look. I think actually we maybe also have a showcase. Do we have Deno.land/showcase? I don't remember. Show case. Oh yeah, we do Deno.com/showcase, which is a page of like a Bunch of Yeah. Projects built with Deno or, or, or products using Deno or, um, other things like that. [01:19:35] Jeremy: Cool. if people wanna learn more about Deno or see what you're up to, where should they head? [01:19:42] Luca: Yeah. Uh, if you wanna learn more about Deno Cli, head to Deno.land. If you wanna learn more about Deno Deploy, head to Deno.com/deploy. Um, if you want to chat to me, uh, you can hit me up on my website, lcas.dev. if you wanna chat about Deno, you can go to discord.gg/deno. yeah, and if you're interested in any of this and thought that maybe you have something to contribute here, you can either become an open source contributor on our open source project, or this is really something you wanna work on and you like distributed systems or systems engineering or fast performance, head to deno.com/jobs and, send in your resume. We're, we're very actively hiring and, be super excited to, to, work with you. [01:20:20] Jeremy: All right, Luca. Well thank you so much for coming on Software Engineering Radio. [01:20:24] Luca: Thank you so much for having me.

Leaguepedia is a MediaWiki instance that covers tournaments, teams, and players in the League of Legends esports community. It's relied on by fans, analysts, and broadcasters from around the world. Megan "River" Cutrofello joined Leaguepedia in 2014 as a community manager and by the end of her tenure in 2022 was the lead for Fandom's esports wikis. She built up a community of contributing editors in addition to her role as the primary MediaWiki developer. She writes on her blog and is a frequent speaker at the Enterprise MediaWiki Conference Topics covered: When to use MediaWiki Visual vs code editor MediaWiki's rough syntax Templates and markup Limiting user input to simplify pages Choosing not to transliterate long player names in certain languages Handling mobile clients Building aliases for search results Creating a single source of truth Roster changes and caching Cargo (Query data in MediaWiki templates using SQL) Hiding implementation details from editors Optimizing for the editor, not a clean codebase Training your users to use workarounds MediaWiki only supports es5 The wiki aesthetic Who is working on the wiki + onboarding Who is using the wiki The future of Leaguepedia How Megan got into wiki development Issues as opportunities to onboard Related Links River Writes - Megan's Blog Leaguepedia - League of Legends esports wiki MediaWiki VisualEditor VueJS in MediaWiki Open issue to support ES6 in MediaWiki Whitespace programming language Lua MediaWiki extensions CharInsert - Add code snippets into the MediaWiki editor Semantic MediaWiki (SMW) - Store and query data inside Wiki pages Cargo - Replaced SMW at Leaguepedia Conference Talks Usage of Cargo with Lua on LoL Gamepedia Mediawiker SublimeText plugin Cargo/Lua Best Practices, and When Not To Use Them MediaWiki Lua Tutorial Editing your wiki with Python is easier than you think Other podcast appearances Between the Brackets Transcript You can help edit this transcript on GitHub. [00:00:00] Jeremy: Today I'm talking to Megan Cutrofello. She managed the Leaguepedia eSports wiki for eight years, and in 2017 she got an award for being the unsung hero of the year for eSports. So Megan, thanks for joining me today. [00:00:17] Megan: Thanks for having me. [00:00:19] Jeremy: A lot of the people I talk to are into web development, so they work with web frameworks and things like that. And I guess when you think about it, wikis are web development, but they're kind of their own world, I suppose. for someone who's going to build some kind of a site, like when does it make sense for them to use a wiki versus, uh, a content management system or just like a more traditional web framework? [00:00:55] Megan: I think it makes the most sense to use a wiki if you're going to have a lot of contributors and you don't want all of your contributors to have access to your server. also if your contributors aren't necessarily as tech savvy as you are, um, it can make sense to use a wiki. if you have experience with MediaWiki, I guess it makes sense to use a Wiki. Anytime I'm building something, my instinct is always, oh, I wanna make a Wiki (laughs) . Um, so even if it's not necessarily the most appropriate tool for the job, I always. My, my first thought is, hmm, let's see, I'm, I'm making a blog. Should I make my blog in in MediaWiki? Um, so, so I always, I always wanna do that. but I think it's always, when you're collaborating is pretty much, you always wanna do MediaWiki [00:01:47] Jeremy: And I, I think that's maybe an important point when you say people are collaborating. When I think about Wikis, I think of Wikipedia, uh, and the fact that I can click the edit button and I can see the markup right there, make a change and, and click save. And I didn't even have to log in or anything. And it seems like that workflow is built into a wiki, but maybe not so much into your typical CMS or WordPress or something like that. [00:02:18] Megan: Yeah. Having a public ability to solicit contributions from anyone. so for Leaguepedia, we actually didn't have open contributions from the public. You did have to create an account, but it's still that open anyone can make an account and all you have to do is like, go through that one step of create an account. Admittedly, sometimes people are like, I don't wanna make an account that's so much work. And we're like, just make the account. Come on. It's not that hard. but, uh, you still, you're a community and you want people to come and contribute ideas and you want people to come and be a part of that community to, document your open source project or, record the history of eSports or write down all of the easter eggs that you find in a video game or in a TV show, or in your favorite fantasy novels. Um, and it's really about community and working together to create something where the whole is bigger than the sum of its parts. [00:03:20] Jeremy: And in a lot of cases when people are contributing, I've noticed that on Wikipedia when you edit, there's an option for a, a visual editor, and then there's one for looking at the raw markup. in, in your experience, are people who are doing the edits, are they typically using the visual editor or are they mostly actually editing the, the markup? [00:03:48] Megan: So we actually disabled the Visual editor on Leaguepedia, because the visual editor is not fantastic at knowing things about templates. Um, so a template is when you have one page that gets its content pulled into the larger page, and there's a special syntax for that, and the visual editor doesn't know a lot about that. Um, so that's the first reason. And then the second reason is that, there's this, uh, one extension that we use that allows you to make a clickable, piece of text. It's called (https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:CharInsert) CharInserts, uh, for character inserts. so I made a lot of these things that is sort of along the same philosophy as Visual Editor, where it's to help people not have to have the same burden of knowledge, of knowing every exact piece of source that has to be inserted into the page. So you click the thing that says like, um, insert a pick and band prefill, and then a little piece of JavaScript fires and it inserts a whole bunch of Wiki text and then you just enter the champions in the correct places. In the prefills of champions are like the characters that you play in, uh, league of Legends. And so then you have like the text is prefilled for you and you only have to fill in into this outline. so Visual Editor would conflict with CharInserts, and I much preferred the CharInserts approach where you have this compromise in between the never interacting with source and having to have all of the source memorized. So between the fact that Visual Editor like is not a perfect tool and has these bugs in it, and also the fact that I preferred CharInserts, we didn't use Visual Editor at all. I know that some wikis do like to use Visual Editor quite a bit, and especially if you're not working with these templates where you have all of these prefills, it can be a lot more preferred to use Visual Editor. Visual Editor is an experience much more similar to editing something like Microsoft Word, It doesn't feel like you're editing code. and editing code is, I mean, it's scary. Like for, and when I said like, MediaWiki is when you have editors who aren't as tech savvy, as the person who set up the Wiki. for people who don't have that experience, I mean, when you just said like you have to edit a wiki, like someone who's never done that before, they can be very intimidated by it. And you're trying to build a sense of community. You don't want to scare away your potential editors. You want everyone to be included there. So you wanna do everything possible to make everyone feel safe, to contribute their ideas to the Wiki. and if you make them have to memorize syntax, like even something that to me feels as simple as like two open brackets and then the name of a page, and then two closed brackets means linking the page. Like, I mean, I'm used to memorizing a lot of syntax because like, I'm a programmer, but someone who's never written code before, I mean, they're not used to memorizing things like that. So they wanna be able to click a button that says insert link, and then type the name of the page in the middle of the things that pop up there. Um, so visual editor is. It's a lot safer to use. so a lot of wikis do prefer that. and if it, if it didn't have the bugs with the type of editing that my Wiki required, and if we weren't using CharInserts so much, we definitely would've gone for it. But, um, it wasn't conducive to the wiki that I built, so we didn't use it at all. [00:07:42] Jeremy: And the, the compromise you're referring to, is it where the editor sees the raw markup, but then they can, there's like little buttons on the side they can click and they'll know, okay, if I click this one, then it's going to give me the text for creating a list or something like that. [00:08:03] Megan: Yeah, it's a little bit more high level than creating a list because I would never even insert the raw syntax for creating a list. It would be a template that's going to insert a list at the very end. but basically that, yeah, [00:08:18] Jeremy: And I, I know for myself, even though I do software development, if I click at it on a wiki and there's all the different curly brace tags, there's the square tags, and. I think if you spend some time with it, you can kind of get a sense of what it means. But for the average person who doesn't work with software in their day to day, do, do you find that, is that a big barrier for them where they, they click edit and there's all this stuff that they don't really understand? Is that where some people just, they go, oh, I don't, I don't know what to do. [00:08:59] Megan: I think the biggest barrier is actually clicking at it in the first place. so that was a big barrier to me actually. I didn't wanna click at it in the first place, and I guess my reasons were maybe a little bit different where for me it was like, I know that if I click edit, this is going to be a huge rabbit hole and I'm going to learn way too much about wikis and this is going to consume my entire life and look where I ended up. So I guess I was pretty right about that. I don't know if other people feel the same way or if they just like, don't wanna get involved at all. but I think once people, click edit, they're able to figure it out pretty well. I think there's, there's two barriers or maybe three barriers. the first one is clicking edit in the first place. The second one is if they learn to code templates at all. Media Wiki syntax is literally the worst I have encountered other than programming languages that are literally parodies. So like the white space language is worse (laughs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_(programming_language)) , but like it's two curly braces for a template and it's three curly braces for a variable. And like, are you actually kidding me? One of my blog posts is like a plea to editors to write a comment saying the name of the template that they're ending because media wiki like doesn't provide any syntax for what you're ending. And there's no, like, there's no indentation. So you can't visually see what you're ending. And there's no. So when I said the white sp white space language, that was maybe appropriate because MediaWiki prints all of the white space because it's really just like, PHP functions that are put into the text that you're literally putting onto the page. So any white space that you put gets printed. So the only way to put white space into your code is if you comment it out. So anytime you wanna put a new line, you have to comment out your new line. And if you wanna indent your code, you have to comment out the indents. So it's just, I, I'm , I'm not exaggerating here. It's, it's just the worst. Occasionally you can put a little bit of white space. Because there's like some divisions in parser functions that get handled when it gets sent to the parser. And, but I mean, for the most part it's just, it's just terrible. so if I'm like writing an if statement, I'll write if, and then I'll write a commented out endif at the end, so once an editor starts to write templates, like with parser functions and stuff, that's another big barrier because, and that's not because like people don't know how to code, it's just because the MediaWiki language, and I use language very loosely, it's like this collection of PHP functions poured into this just disaster It's just, it's not good! (laughs) And the, the next barrier is when people start to jump to Lua, which is just, I mean, it's just Lua where you can write Lua modules and then, Lua is fine. It's great, it has white space and you can make new lines and it's absolutely fine and you can write an entire code base and as long as you're writing Lua, it's, it's absolutely fantastic and there's nothing wrong with it anymore (laughs) So as much as I just insulted the MediaWiki language, like writing Lua in MediaWiki is great (laughs) . So for, for most of my time I was writing Lua. Um, and I have absolutely no complaints about that except that Lua is one index, but actually the one indexing of Lua is fine because MediaWiki itself is one indexed. So people complain about Lua being one index, and I'm like, what are you talking about? If it's, if another language were used, then you'd have all of this offsetting when you go to your scripting language because you'd have like the first argument from your template in MediaWiki going into your scripting language, and then you'd have to offset it to zero and everyone would be like vastly confused about what's going on. So you should be thankful that they picked a language that's one index because it saves you all of this headache. So anyway, sorry for that tangent, but it's very good that we picked a one index language. [00:13:17] Jeremy: When you were talking about the, the if statement and having to put in comments to have white space, is it, cuz like when I think about an if statement in most languages, the, the if statement isn't itself rendering anything, it's like deciding if you're going to do something inside of the, if so. like what, what would that white space do if you didn't comment it out in the context of the if? [00:13:44] Megan: So actually you would be able to put some white space inside of an if statement, but you would not be able to put any white space after an if statement. and there, most likely inside of the if statement, you're printing variables or putting other parser functions. and the other parser functions also end in like two curly braces. And, depending on what you're printing, you're likely ending with a series of like five or eight, or, I don't know, some very large set of curly braces. And so what I like to do is I would like to be able to see all of the things that I'm ending with, and I wanna know like how far the nesting goes, right. So I wanna write like an end if, and so I have to comment that out because there's no like end if statement. so I comment out an end if there, it's more that you can't indent the statements inside of the if, because anything that you would be printing inside of your code would get printed. So if I like write text inside of the code, then that indentation would get printed into the page. And then if I put any white space after the if statement, then that would also get printed. So technically you can have a little bit of white space before the curly braces, but that's only because it's right before the curly braces and PHP will strip the contents right inside of the parser function. So basically if PHP is stripping something, then you're allowed to have white space there. But if PHP isn't stripping anything, then all of the white space is going to be printed and it's like so inconsistent that for the most part it's not safe to put white space anywhere because you don't, you have to like keep track of am I in a location where PHP is going to be stripping something right now or not? and I, I wanna know what statement or what variable or what template I'm closing at any location. So I always want to, write out what I'm closing everywhere. And then I have to comment that because there was no foresight to put like an end if clause in this white space, sensitive language. [00:16:22] Jeremy: Yeah, I, I think I see what you mean. So you have, if you're gonna start an, if you have the, if inside these curly braces, but then, inside the, if you typically are going to render some text to the page, and so intuitively you would indent it so that it's indented in from the if statement. But then if you do that, then it's gonna be shifted to the right on, on the Wiki. Did I get that right? [00:16:53] Megan: Yeah. So you have the flexibility to put white space immediately because PHP will strip immediately, but then you don't have flexibility to put any white space after that, if that makes sense. [00:17:11] Jeremy: So, so when you say immediately, is that on the following line or is that [00:17:15] Megan: yeah, so any white space before the first clause, you have flexibility. So like if you were to put an if statement, so it's like if, and then there's a colon, all of the next white space will get stripped. Um, so then you can put some text, but then, if you wanted to like put some text and then another if statement nested within the first if statement. It's not like Lua where you could like assign a variable and then put a comment and then put some more white space and then put another statement. And it's white space insensitive because you're just writing code and you haven't returned anything yet. it, it's more like Jinja (View templating language) than Python for, for an analogy. So everything is getting printed because you're in like a, this templating language, not actually a programming language. Um, so you have to work as if you're in a templating language about, you know, 70% of the time , unless you're in this like very specific location where PHP is stripping your white space because you're at the edge of an argument that's being sent there. So it's like incredibly inconsistent. And every now and then you get to like, pretend that you're in an actual language and you have some white space, that you can indent or whatever. it's just incredibly inconsistent, which is like what you absolutely want out of a programming language (laughs) yeah, it's like you're, you're writing templates, but like, it seems like because of the fact that it's using php, there's [00:18:56] Jeremy: weird exceptions to the behavior. Yeah. [00:18:59] Megan: Exactly. Yeah. [00:19:01] Jeremy: and then you also mentioned these, these templates. So, if I understand correctly, this is kind of like how a lot of web frameworks will have, partials, I guess, where you'll, you'll be able to have a webpage, but it's made up of different I don't know if you would call them components, but you're able to build a full page that's made up of a bunch of different pieces. So you could have a [00:19:31] Megan: Yeah Yeah that's a good analogy. [00:19:33] Jeremy: Where it's like, here's my table of contents, or here's my info box, or things like that. And those are all things that you would create a MediaWiki template for, and then somehow the, the data gets passed into those templates and the template decides how to, to render it out. [00:19:55] Megan: Yeah. [00:19:56] Jeremy: And for these, these templates, I, I noticed on some of the Leaguepedia pages, I noticed there's some html in some of them. I was curious if that's typical to write them with HTML or if there are different ways native to Media Wiki for, for, creating these templates. [00:20:23] Megan: Um, it depends on what you're doing. MediaWiki has a special syntax for tables specifically. I would say that it's not necessarily recommended to use the special syntax because occasionally you can get things to not work out fantastically if people slightly break things. But it's easier to use it. So if you know that everything's going to work out perfectly, you can use it. and it's a simple shortcut. if you go to the help page about tables on Wikipedia, everything is explained, and not all HTML works, um, for security reasons. So there's like a list of allowed, things that you can use, allowed tags, so you can't put like forms and stuff natively, but there's the widgets extension that you can use and widgets just automatically renders all html that you put inside of a widget. Uh, and then the security layer there is that you have to have a special permission to edit a widget. so, you only give trusted people that permission and then they can put the whatever html they want there. So, we have a few forms on Leaguepedia that are there because I edited, uh, whichever widgets, and then put the widgets into a Lua module and then put the Lua module into a template and then put the template onto the page. I was gonna say, it's not that complicated. It's not as complicated as it sounds, but I guess it really is as complicated as it sounds (laughs) . Um, so, uh, I, I won't say that. I don't know how standard it is on other wikis to use that much html, I guess Leaguepedia is pretty unique in how complicated it is. There aren't that many wikis that do as many things as we did there. but tables are pretty common. I would say like putting divs places to style them, uh, is also pretty common. but beyond that, usually there's not too many HTML elements just because you typically wanna be mobile friendly and it's relatively hard to stay mobile friendly within the bounds of MediaWiki if you're like putting too many elements everywhere. And then also allowing users to put whatever content inside of them that they want. The reason that we were able to get away with it is because despite the fact that we had so many editors, our content was actually pretty limited. Like if there's a bracket, it's only short team names going into it. So, and short team names were like at most five or six characters long, so we don't have to worry about like overflow of team names. Although we designed the brackets to support overflow of team names, and the team names would wrap around and the bracket would not break. And a lot of CSS Magic went into making that work that, we worked really hard on and then did not end up using (laughsz) [00:23:39] Jeremy: Oh no. [00:23:41] Megan: Only short team names go into brackets. But, that's okay. uh, and then for example, like in, uh, schedules and stuff, a lot of fields like only contain numbers or only contain timestamps. there's like a lot of tables again where like there's only two digit numbers with one decimal point and stuff like that. So a lot of the stuff that I was designing, I knew the content was extremely constrained, and if it wasn't then I said, well, too bad. This is how I'm telling you to put the content . Um, and for technical reasons, that's the content that's gonna go here and I don't care. so there's like, A lot of understanding that if I said for technical reasons, this is how we have to do it. Then for technical reasons, that was how we had to do it. And I was very lucky that all of the people that I worked with like had a very big appreciation with like, for technical reasons, like argument over. This is what's happening. And I know that with like different people on staff, like they would not be willing to compromise that way. Um, so I always felt like extremely lucky that like if I couldn't figure out a way to redesign or recode something in order to be more flexible, then like that would just be respected. And that was like how we designed something. But in general, like it's, if you are not working with something as rigid as, I mean, and like the history of eSports sounds like a very fluid thing, but when you think about it, like it's mostly names of teams, names of players and statistics. There's not that much like variable stuff going on with it. It's very easy to put in relational databases. It's very easy to put in fixed width tables. It's very easy to put in like charts that look the same on every single page. I'm not saying. It was always easy to like write everything that I wrote, and it's not, it wasn't always easy to like, deal with designs and stuff, but like relative to other topics that you can pick, it was much easier to put constraints on what was going to go where because everything was very similar across regions, across, although actually one thing. Okay, so this will be like the, the exception that proves the rule. uh, we would trans iterate players' names when we, showed them in team rosters. So, uh, for example, when we were showing the hangul, the Korean player's names, we would show an English translation also. Um, and we would do this for every single alphabet. but Hungarian players' names are really, really, really long. And so the transliteration doesn't fit in the table when we show the translation to the Roman alphabet. And so we couldn't do this, so we actually had to make a cargo table. Of alphabets that are allowed to be transliterated into the Roman alphabet, uh, when we have players names in that alphabet. So we had, like, hangul was allowed and Arabic was allowed, and I can't remember the exact list, but we had like three alphabet, three or four alphabets were allowed and the rest of the alphabets were dis allowed to be transliterate into, uh, the Roman alphabet. and so again, we made up a rule that was like a hard rule across the entire Wiki where we forced the set of alphabets that were transliterated so that this tables could be the same size roughly across every single team page because these Hungarian player names are too long (laughs) So I guess even this exception ended up being part of the rule of everything had to be standardized because these tables were just way too wide and they were running into the info box. They couldn't fit on the side. so it's really hard when you have like arbitrary user entered content to fit it into the HTML that you design. And if you don't have people who all agree to the same standards, I mean, Even when we did have people who agreed to all of the same standards, it was really, really, really hard. And we ended up having things like a table of which alphabets to transliterate. Like that's not the kind of thing that you think you're going to end up having when you say, let's catalog the history of League of Legends eSports, [00:28:40] Jeremy: And, and so when, let's say you had a language that you couldn't trans iterate, what would go into the table. [00:28:49] Megan: uh, just the native alphabet. [00:28:51] Jeremy: Oh I see. Okay. [00:28:53] Megan: Yeah. And then if they went to the player page, then you would be able to see it transliterated. But it wouldn't show up on the team page. [00:29:00] Jeremy: I see. And then to help people visualize what some of these things you're talking about look like when you're talking about a, a bracket, it's, is it kind of like a tree structure where you're showing which teams are facing which teams and okay, [00:29:19] Megan: We had a very cool, CSS grid structure that used like before and after pseudo elements to generate the lines, uh, between the teams and then the teams themselves were the elements of the grid. Um, and it's very cool. Uh, I didn't design it. Um, I have a friend who I very, very fortunately have a friend who's amazing at CSS because I am like mediocre at css and she did all of our CSS for us. And she also like did most of our designs too. Uh, so the Wiki would not be like anything like what it is without her. [00:30:00] Jeremy: And when you're talking about making sure the designs fit on desktop and, and mobile, um, I think when you were talking earlier, you're talking about how you have these, these templates to build these tables and the, these, these brackets. Um, so I guess in which part of the wiki is it ensuring that it looks different or that it fits when you're working with these different screen sizes [00:30:32] Megan: Usually it's a peer CSS solution. Every now and then we hide an element on mobile altogether, and some of that is actually MediaWiki core, for example, in, uh, nav boxes don't show up on mobile. And that's actually on Wikipedia too. Uh, well, I guess, yeah. I mean, being MediaWiki core, So if you've ever noticed the nav boxes that are at the bottom of pages on Wikipedia, just don't show up on like en.m.wikipedia.org. and that way you're not like loading, you're not loading, but display noneing elements on mobile. but for the most part it's pure CSS Solutions. Um, so we use a lot of, uh, display flex to make stuff, uh, appropriate for mobile. Um, some media roles. sometimes we display none stuff for mobile. Uh, we try to avoid that because obviously then mobile users aren't getting like the full content. Occasionally we have like overflow rules, so you're getting scroll bars on mobile and then every now and then we sort of just say, too bad if you're on mobile, you're gonna have not the greatest solution or not the greatest, uh, experience. that's typically for large data tables. so the general belief at fandom was like, if you can't make it a good experience on mobile, don't put it on the Wiki. And I just think that's like the worst philosophy because like then no one gets a good experie. And you're just putting less content on the Wiki so no one gets to enjoy it, and no one gets to like use the content that could exist. So my philosophy has always been like the, the, core overview pages should be, as good as possible for both PC and mobile. And if you have to optimize for one, then you slightly optimize for mobile because the majority of traffic is mobile. but attempt not to optimize for either one and just make it a good experience on both. but then the pages behind that, I say behind because we like have tabs views, so they're like sort of literally behind because it looks like folders sort of, or it looks like the tabs in a folder and you can, like, I, I don't know, it, it looks like it's behind (laughs) , the, the more detailed views where it's just really hard to design for mobile and it's really easy to design for pc and it just feels very unlikely that users on mobile are going to be looking at these pages in depth. And it's the sort of thing. A PC user is much more likely to be looking at, and you're going to have like multiple windows open and you're gonna be tapping between them and you're gonna be doing all of your research at PC. You absolutely optimize this for PC users. Like, what the hell this is? These are like stats pages. It's pages and pages and pages of stats. It's totally fine to optimize this for PC users. And if the option is like, optimized for PC users or don't create it at all, what are you thinking To not create it at all, like make it a good experience for someone? So I don't, I don't understand that philosophy at all. [00:34:06] Jeremy: Did you, um, have any statistics in terms of knowing on these types of pages, these pages that are information dense or have really big tables? Could you tell that? Oh, most of the people coming here are on computers or, or larger screens. [00:34:26] Megan: I didn't have stats for individual pages. Um, mobile I accidentally lost Google Analytics access at some point, and honestly I wasn't interested enough to go through the process of trying to get it back. when I had it, it didn't really affect what I put time into, because it was, it was just so much what I expected it to be. That it, it didn't really affect much. What I actually spent the most time on was looking, so you can, uh, you get URLs for search results. And so I would look through our search results, and I would look at the URL of the failed search results and, so there would be like 45 results for this particular failed search. And then I would turn that into a redirect for what I thought the target was supposed to be. So I would make sure that people's failed searches would actually resolve to the correct thing. So if they're like typo something, then I make the typo actually resolve. So we had a lot of redirects of like common typos, or if they're using the wrong name for a tournament, then I make the wrong name for the tournament resolve. So the analytics were actually really helpful for that. But beyond that, I, I didn't really find it that useful. [00:35:48] Jeremy: And then when you're talking about people searching, are these people using a search box on the Wiki itself And not finding what they were looking for? [00:36:00] Megan: Yeah. So like the internal search, so like if you search Wikipedia for like New York City, but you spell it C I Y T, , then you're not going to get a result. But it might say, did you mean New York City t y? If like 45 people did that in one month, then that would show up for me. And then I don't want them to be getting, like, that's a bad experience. Sure. They're eventually getting there, but I mean, I don't want them to have to spend that extra time. So I'm gonna make an automatic redirect from c Y T to c i t Y [00:36:39] Jeremy: And, and. Maybe we should have talked about this a little earlier, but the, all the information on Leaguepedia is, it's about all of the different matches and players, um, who play League of Legends. so when you edit a, a page on Wikipedia, all of that information, or a lot of it I think is, is hand entered by, by people and on Leagueapedia, which has all this information about like what, how teams did in a tournament or, intricate stats about how a game went. That seems like a lot of information for someone to be hand entering. So I was wondering how much of that information is somebody actually manually editing those things and how much is, is done automatically or programmatically. [00:37:39] Megan: So it's mostly hand entered. We do have a little bit of it that's automated, via a couple scripts, but for the most part it's hand entered. But after being handed, entered into a couple of data pages, it gets propagated a lot of times based on a bunch of Lua modules and the cargo extension. So when I originally joined the Wiki back in 2014, it was hand entered. Not just once, but probably, I don't know, seven times for tournament results and probably 10 or 12 times for roster changes. It was, it was a lot. And starting in 2017, I started rewriting all of the code so that it was entered exactly one time for everything. Tournament results get entered one time into a data page and roster changes get entered one time into a data page. And, for roster changes, that was very difficult because, for a roster change that needs to update the team history on a player page, which goes, from a join to a leave and it needs to update the, the like roster, change portal for the off season, which goes from a leave to a join because it's showing like the deltas over the off season. And it needs to update the current team in the, player's info box, which means that the current team has to be calculated from all of the deltas that have ever occurred in that player's history and it needs to update. Current rosters in the team pages, which means that the team page needs to know all of the current players who are currently on the team, which again, needs to know all of the deltas from all of history because all that you're entering is the roster changes. You're not entering anyone's current team. So nowhere on the wiki does it ever store a current team anymore. It only stores the roster changes. So that was a lot of code to write and deciding even what was going to be entered was a lot because, all I knew was that I was going to single source of truth that somehow and I needed to decide what was I going to single source of truth. So I decided, um, that I was going to be this Delta and then deciding what to do with that, uh, how to store it in a relational database. It was, it was a big project. and I didn't have a background as a developer either. so this was like, I don't know, this was like my third big project ever. So, that was, that was pretty intense. but it was, it was a lot of fun. so it is hand entered but I feel like that's underselling it a little bit. [00:40:52] Jeremy: Yeah, cuz I was initially, I was a little confused when you mentioned how somebody might need to enter the same information multiple times. But, if I understood correctly, it would be if somebody's changing which team they're on, they would have to update, for example, the player's page and say like, oh, this player is on this team now. And then you would have to go to their old team and remove them from the roster there. Go to the new team, add them to the roster there, And you can see where it would kind [00:41:22] Megan: Yeah. And then there's the roster, there's the roster nav box, and there's like the old team, you have to say, like the next team. Cuz in the previous players list, like we show former team members from the old team and you have to say like the next team. Uh, so if they had like already left their old team, you'd have to say like, new team. Yeah, there's a, there's a lot of, a lot of places. [00:41:50] Jeremy: And so now what it sounds like is, I'm not sure this is exactly how it works, but if you go to any location that would need that information, which team is this player on? When you go to that page, for example, if you were to go to, uh, a teams page, then it would make a SQL query to figure out I guess who most recently had a, I forget what you called it, but like a join row maybe, or like a, they, they had the action of joining this team, and now, now there's a row in the database that says they did this. [00:42:30] Megan: it actually looks at the ten-- so I have an in in between table called tenures. And so it looks at the tenures table instead of querying all the way through the joins and leaves table and doing like the whole list of deltas. yeah. So, and it's also cached so you, it doesn't do the SQL query every time that you load the page. So the only time that the SQL queries actually happen is if you do a save on the page. And then otherwise the entire generated HTML of the page is actually cached on the server. So you're, you're not doing that many database queries every time you load the page, so don't worry about that. but there, there can actually be something like a hundred SQL queries sometimes, when you're, saving a page. So it would be absolute murder if you were doing that every time you went to the page. But yeah, it works. Something like that. [00:43:22] Jeremy: Okay, so this, this tenures table is, that's kind of like what's the current state of all these players and where they are, and then. [00:43:33] Megan: Um, the, the tenures table, caches sort of, or I guess the tenure table captures is a better word than caches um, every, join to leave historically from every team. Um, and then I save that for two reasons. The first one is so that I don't have to recompute it, uh, when I'm doing the team's table, because I have to know both the current members and the former members. And then the second reason is also that we have a public api and so people can query that. if they're building tools, like a lot of people use the public api, uh, for various things. And, one person built like, sort of like a six degrees of Kevin Bacon except for League of Legends, uh, using our tenures tables. So, part of the reason that that exists is so that uh, people can use it for whatever projects that they're doing. Cause the join, the join leave table is like pretty unfriendly and I didn't wanna have to really document that for anyone to use. So I made tenures so that that was the table I could document for people to use. [00:44:39] Jeremy: Yeah. That, that's interesting in that, yeah, when you provide an api, then there's so many different things people can do that even if your wiki didn't really need it, they can build their own apps or their own pages built on all this information you've aggregated. [00:44:58] Megan: Yeah. It's nice because then when someone says like, oh, can you build this as a feature request? I can say no, but you can (laughs) [00:45:05] Jeremy: Well you've, you've done the, the hard part for them (laughs) [00:45:09] Megan: Yeah. exactly. [00:45:11] Jeremy: So that's cool. Yeah. that's, that's interesting too about the, the caching because yeah, I guess when you think about a wiki, most of the people who are visiting it are just visiting it to see what's on there. So the, provided that they're not logged in and they don't need anything specific to them. Yeah, you should be able to cache the whole response. It sounds like. [00:45:41] Megan: Yeah. yeah. Caching was actually a nightmare with this in this particular thing. the, the team roster changes, because, so cargo, which I mentioned a couple times is the database extension that we used. Um, and it's basically a SQL wrapper that like, doesn't port 80% of the features that SQL has. so you can create tables and you can query, but you can't make, uh, like sub-select queries. So your queries have to be like very simple. which is good for like most users of MediaWiki because like the average MediaWiki user doesn't have that much coding experience, but if you do have coding experience, then you're like, what, what, what am I doing? I can't, I can't do anything. Um, but it's a very powerful tool, still compared to most of what you could do with Media Wiki without this, basically you're adding a database layer to your software stack, which I mean, I, I, that's what you're doing, (laughs) Um, so you get a huge amount of power from adding cargo to a wiki. Um, in exchange it's, it's very performance. It's like, it's, it, it's resource heavy. uh, it hurts your performance a lot. and if you don't need it, then you shouldn't use it. But frequently you need it when you're doing, difficult or not necessarily difficult, but like intensive things. Um, anytime that you need to pull data from one page to another, you wanna use something like that. Um, So cargo, uh, one of the things that it doesn't do is it doesn't allow you to, uh, set a primary key easily. so you have to like, just like pretend that one row in the table is your primary key, basically. it internally automatically sets one, but it won't be static or it won't be the same every time that you rebuild the table because it rebuilds the table in a random order and it just uses an auto increment primary key. So you set a row in the table to pretend to be your ran, to pretend to be your primary key. But editors don't know what, your editors don't understand anything about primary keys. And you wanna hide this from them completely. Like, you cannot tell an editor, protect this random number, please don't change this. So you have to hide it completely. So if you're making your own auto increment, like an editor cannot know that that exists. Like this is back to when we were talking about like visual editor. This is like, one of the things about making the wiki safe for people is like not exposing them to the internals of like, anything scary like that. So for example, if an editor accidentally reorders two rows and your roster change data like that has to not matter. Because that can't break the entire wiki. They, you can't make an editor like freak out because they just reordered two rows in, in the page. And you can't put like a scary notice somewhere saying, under no circumstances reorder two rows here. Like, that's gonna scare people away. And you wanna be very welcoming and say like, it's impossible to break this page no matter how hard you tried. Don't worry. Anything you do, we can just fix it. Don't worry. But the thing is that everything's going to be cached. And so in particular, um, when I said I made that tenures table, one thing I did not wanna do was resave every single row from the join leave table. So you had to join back to, sorry, I'm going to use, join in two different connotations. you had to join back to the join leave table in order to get like all of the auxiliary data, like all of the extra columns, like, I don't know, like role, date, team name and stuff. Because otherwise the tenures table would've had like 50 columns or something. So I needed to store the fake primary key in the tenures table, but the tenures table is cached on the player page and the join leave table is on the data page, which means that I need to purge the cache on the player page anytime that someone edits the data on the data page. Which means that, so there's like some JavaScript that does that, but if someone like changes the order of the lines, then that primary key is going to change because I have an auto increment going on. And so I had to like very, very carefully pick a primary key here so that it was literally impossible for any kind of order change to affect what the primary key was so that the cash on the player page wasn't going to be changed by anything that the editor did in unless they were going to then update the cash on that player page after making that change. If that makes sense. So after an editor makes a change on the news page, they're going to press a button to update the cache on the player page, but they're only going to update the player page for the one line that they change on the news page. These, uh, primary keys had to be like super invariant for accidental row moves, or also later on, like entire moves of separating a bunch of these data pages into like separate subpages because the pages were getting too big and it was like timing out the server because there were too many stores to the database on a single page every time you save the page. And anyway, it took me like five iterations of making the primary key like more and more specific to the single line because my auto increment was like originally including every single line I was auto incrementing and then I auto incremented only when that single player was was involved. And then I auto incremented only when that player and the team was involved. And then I reset the auto increment for that date. So, and it was just got like more and more convoluted what my primary key was. It was, it was a mess. Anyway, this is just like another thing when you're working with volunteers who don't know what's going on and they're editing the page and they can contribute content, you have to code for the editor and not code for like minimizing complexity, The editor's experience matters more than the cleanliness of your code base, and you just end up with these like absolute messes that make no sense whatsoever because the editor's experience matters and you always have to code to the editor. And Media Wiki is all about community, and the editor just becomes part of the software and part of the consideration of your code base, and it's very, very different from any other kind of development because they're like, the UX is just built so deeply into how you're developing. [00:53:33] Jeremy: if I am following correctly, when I, when I think of using SQL when you were first talking about cargo and you were talking about how you make your own tables, and I'm envisioning the, the columns and the rows and, it's very common for the primary key to either be auto incrementing or some kind of GUID But then if I understood correctly, I think what you were saying is that anytime an editor makes changes to the data, it regenerates the whole table. Is that did I get that right? [00:54:11] Megan: It regenerates all of the rows on that page. [00:54:14] Jeremy: and when you talk about this, these data pages, there's some kind of media wiki or cargo specific markup where people are filling in what is going to go into the rows. And the actual primary key that's in MySQL is not exposed anywhere when they're editing the data. [00:54:42] Megan: That's right [00:54:44] Jeremy: And so when you're talking about trying to come up with a primary key, um, I'm trying to, I guess I'm trying to picture [00:54:57] Megan: So usually I do page name underscore an auto increment. But then if people can rearrange the rows which they do because they wanna get the rows chronological, but some people just put it at the top of the page and then other people are like, oh my God, it's not chronological. And then they fix it and then other people are like, oh my God, you messed up the time zone. And then they rearrange it again. Then, I mean, normally I wouldn't care because I don't really care like what the primary key is. I just care that it exists. But then because I have it cached on these player pages, I really, really do care what the primary key is. And because I need the primary key to actually agree with what it is on the data page, because I'm actually joining these things together. and people aren't going to be updating the cache on the player page if they don't think that they edited the row because rearranging isn't actually editing and people aren't going to realize that. And again, this is burden of knowledge. People can't, I can't make them know that because they have to feel safe to make any edits. It's bad enough that they have to know that they have to click this button to update the cache after making an edit in the first place. so, the auto increment isn't enough, so it has to be like an auto increment, but only within the set of rows that incorporate that one player. And then rearranging is pretty safe because they'd have to rearrange two pieces of news, including the same player. And that's really unlikely to happen. It's really unlikely that someone's going to flip the order of two pieces of news that involve the same player without realizing that they're actually are editing that single player except maybe they are. So then I include the team in that also. So they'd have to rearrange two pieces of news, including the same player and the same team. And that's like unlikely to happen in the first place. And then like, maybe a mistake happens like once a year. And at the end of the day, the thing that really saves us is that we're a wiki. We're not an official source. And so if we have a mistake once a year, like no one cares really. So we're not going for like five nines or anything. We're going for like, you know, two (laughs) . Um, so [00:57:28] Jeremy: so [00:57:28] Megan: We were having like mistakes constantly until I added player and team and date to the set of things that I was auto incrementing against. and once I got all of those, it was pretty stable. [00:57:42] Jeremy: And for the caching part, so when you're making a cargo query or a SQL query on one page and it needs to join on or get data from another page, it goes to this cache that you have instead of going directly to the actual table in the database. And the only way to get the right data is for the editor to click this button on the website that tells it to update the cache did I get that right? [00:58:23] Megan: Not quite. So it, well, or Yes, you did sort of, it goes to the actual table. The issue here is that, the table was last updated, the last time that a page was saved. And the last time the data got saved was the last time that the page that contains the parser function that generates those rows got saved. So, let me say that again. So, some of the data is being saved from the data page where the users manually enter it, and that's fine because the only time that gets updated is when the users manually enter it and then the page gets saved. But then these tenures tables are stored by my lua code on the player pages, and those aren't going to get updated unless the player page gets blank edited or null edited, or a save action happens from the player page. And so the way to make a, an edit happen from the player page is either to manually go there and click edit, and then click save, which is called a blank edit because. Blank edited, you didn't do anything but you pressed save or to use my JavaScript gadget, which is clicking a button from the data page that just basically does that for you using the api. And then that's going to update the table and then the database table, because that's where the, the cargo parser function is that writes to the database and updates the tables there. with the information, Hey, the primary key changed, because that's where the parser function is physically located in the wiki because one of them is on the data page and one of them is on the player page. So you get this disconnect in the cache where it's on two different pages and so you have to press a save action in both of them before the table is consistent again. [01:00:31] Jeremy: Okay. It be, it's, so this is really all about the tenure table, which the user will never mod or the editor will never modify directly. You need your code running on the data page and the player's page to run, to update the The tenure table? [01:00:55] Megan: Yeah, exactly. [01:00:57] Jeremy: yeah, it's totally hidden that this exists to the editor, but it's something that, that you as the person who put this all together, um, have to always be aware of, yeah. [01:01:11] Megan: Right. So there was just so many things like this, where you just had to press this one button. I call it refresh overview because originally it was on a tournament page and you had to press, the refresh overview button to purge the cache on the overview page of the tournament. after editing the data and you would refresh, overview, to deal with this cache lag. And everyone knew you have to refresh overview, otherwise none of your data entry is gonna like, be worth anything because it's not, the cache is just gonna lag. but every editor learned, like if there's a refresh overview button, make sure you press the refresh overview button, , otherwise nothing's gonna happen. Um, and there is just like tons of these littered across the Wiki. and like to most people, it just like, looks like a simple little button, but like so many things happen when you press this button. so it is, it is very important. [01:02:10] Jeremy: Are there, no ways inside of media wiki to if somebody edits one page, for example, to force it to go and, do, I forget what you called it, like a blank save or blank edit on another page? [01:02:27] Megan: So that wouldn't even really work because, we had 11,000 player pages. And you don't know which one the user just edited. so it, it's unclear to MediaWiki what just happened when the user just edited some part of the data page. and like the whole point here is that I can't even blank edit every single player page that the data page links to because the data page probably links to, I don't know, 200 different player pages. So I wanna link, I wanna blank it like the five that this one news line links to. so I do that, through like HTML attributes, in the JavaScript, [01:03:14] Jeremy: Oh, so that's why you're using JavaScript so that you can tell what the person edited because there isn't really a way to know natively in, in MediaWiki. what just changed? [01:03:30] Megan: there's like a diff so I could, like, MediaWiki knows the characters that got changed, but it doesn't really know like semantically what happened. So it doesn't know, like, oh, a link to this just got edited and especially because, I mean it's like templates that got edited, not really like the final HTML or anything. So Media Wiki has no idea what's going on. so yeah, so the JavaScript, uh, looks at the HTML attributes and then runs a couple API queries, and then the blank edits happen and then a couple purges after that so that the cache gets purged after the blank edit. [01:04:08] Jeremy: Yeah. So it, it seems like on these Wiki pages, you have the html, you have the CSS you have the ability to describe these data pages, which I, I guess in the end, end up being rows in in SQL. And then finally you have JavaScript. So it kind of seems like you can do almost everything in the context of a a Wiki page. You have so many, so many of these tools at your, at your disposal. [01:04:45] Megan: Yeah. Except write es6 code. [01:04:48] Jeremy: Oh, still, still only es5. [01:04:52] Megan: Yeah, [01:04:52] Jeremy: Oh no. do, do you know if that's something that they are considering changing or [01:05:01] Megan: There's a Phabricator ticket open. [01:05:05] Jeremy: How, um, how, how many years? [01:05:06] Megan: It has a lot of comments, oh a lot of years. I think it's since like 2014 or something [01:05:14] Jeremy: Oh yeah. I, I guess the, the one maybe, well now now the browsers all, all support es6, but I, I guess one of the things, it sounds like media wiki, maybe side stepped is the whole, front end ecosystem in, in terms of node packages and build tools and things like that. is, is that right? It's basically you can write JavaScript and there, yeah, [01:05:47] Megan: You can even write jQuery. [01:05:49] Jeremy: Oh, okay. That's built in as well. [01:05:52] Megan: Yeah .So I have to admit, like my, my front end knowledge is like a decade out of date or something because it's like what MediaWiki can do and there's like this entire ecosystem out there that I just like, don't have access to. And so I like barely know about. So I have this like side project that uses React that I've like, kind of sort of been working on. And so like I know this tiny little bit of react and I'm like, why? Why doesn't MediaWiki do this? Um, they are adding Vue support. So in theory I'll get to learn vue so that'll be fun. [01:06:38] Jeremy: So I'm, I'm curious, just from the limited experience you've had, outside of, MediaWiki, are, are there like specific things, uh, in your experience working with React where you're, you really wish you had in inside of Media Wiki? [01:06:55] Megan: Well, really the big thing is like es6, like I really wish we could use arrow functions , like that would be fantastic. Being able to build components would be really nice. Yeah, we can't do that. [01:07:09] Jeremy: I, I suppose you, you've touched a little bit on performance before, but I, I guess that's one thing about Wikis is that, putting what's happening in the back end, aside the, the front end experience of Wikis, they, they feel pretty consistent since they're generally mostly server rendered. And the actual JavaScript is, is pretty light, at least from, from Wikis I've seen. [01:07:40] Megan: Yeah. I mean you can add as much JavaScript as you want, so I guess it depends on what the users decide to do. But it's, it's definitely true that wikis tend to load faster than some websites that I've seen. [01:07:54] Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, I guess when you think of a wiki, it's, you're there cuz you wanna get specific information and so the goal is not to necessarily reproduce like some crazy complex app or something. It's, It's, to get you the, the, information. Yeah. [01:08:14] Megan: Yeah. No, that's actually one thing that I really like about Wikis also is that you don't have the pressure to make them look nice. I know that some people are gonna hear that and just like, totally cringe and be like, oh my God, what is she saying? ? Um, but it's actually really true. Like there's an aesthetic that Wikis and Media Wiki in particular have, and you kind of stick to that. And within that aesthetic, I mean, you make them look as nice as you can. Um, and you certainly don't wanna like, make them deliberately ugly, but there's not a pressure to like go over the top with like marketing and branding and like, you know, you, you just make them look reasonably nice. And then the focus is on the information and the focus is on making the information as easy to understand as possible. And a wiki that looks really nice is a wiki that's very understandable and very intuitive, and one where you. I mean, one, that the information is the joy and, you know, not, not the presentation, I guess. So it's like the presentation of the information instead of the presentation of the brand. so I, I really appreciate that about wikis. [01:09:30] Jeremy: Yeah, that's a good point about the aesthetics in the sense of like, they have a certain look and yeah, maybe it's an authoritative look, , which, uh, is interesting cuz it's, like a, a wiki that I'll, I'll commonly go to for example, is there's the, the PC gaming Wiki. And when you look at how it's styled, it feels like very dated or it doesn't look like, I guess you could say normal webpages, but it's very much in line with what you expect a wiki to look like. So it's, it's interesting how they have that, shared aesthetic, I guess. [01:10:13] Megan: Yeah. yeah. No, I really like it. The Wiki experience, [01:10:18] Jeremy: We, we kind of touched on this near the beginning, but sometimes when. I would see wikis and, and projects like Leaguepedia I would kind of wonder, you know, what's the decision between or behind it being a wiki versus something being like a custom CMS in, in the case of Leaguepedia but, you know, talking to you about how it's so, like wikis are structured so that people can contribute. and then like you were saying, you have like this consistent look that brings the data to the user. Um, I actually, it gives me a better understanding of why so many people choose wikis as, as ways to present this information. [01:11:07] Megan: Yeah, a a lot of people have asked me over the years why, why MediaWiki when it always feels like I'm jumping through so many hoops. Um, I mean, when I just described the caching thing to you, and that's just like one of, I don't know, dozens of struggles that I've had where, MediaWiki has gotten in the way of what I need to do. Because really Leaguepedia is an entire software layer on top of MediaWiki, and so you might ask why. Why MediaWiki? Why not just build the software layer on top of something easier? And my answer is always, it's about the community. MediaWiki lends itself so well to community and people enjoy contributing to wikis and wikis. Wikis are just kind of synonymous with community, and they always have been. And Wikipedia sort of set the example when they launched, and it's sort of always been that way. And, you know, I feel like I'm a part of a community when I say a Wiki. And if it was just if it were a custom site that had the ability to contribute to it, you know, it just feels like it's not the same. [01:12:33] Jeremy: I think just even seeing the edit button on Wikis is such a different experience than having the expectation, well, I guess in the case of Leaguepedia, you do have to create an account, but even without creating the account, you can still click edit and you can look at the source and you can see how all this information, or a lot of it, how it got filled in. And I feel like it's kind of more similar to the earlier days of webpages where people could right click a site and click view source and then look at the HTML and the css, and kind of see how it was put together. versus, now with a lot of sites, the, the code has been minified or there's build tools involved so that when you look at view source on websites, it just looks crazy and you're not sure what's going on. So I, I, I feel like wikis in some ways are, kind of closer to the, the spirit of, like the earlier H T M L sites. Yeah. [01:13:46] Megan: And the knowledge transfers too. If you've edit, if you've, if you've ever edited Wikipedia, then you know that like open bracket, open bracket, closed bracket. Closed bracket is how you link a page. and that knowledge transfers to admittedly maybe a little bit less so for Leaguepedia, since there, you need to know how all the templates work and there's not so much direct source editing. it's mostly like clicking the CharInsert prefills. but there's still a lot of cross knowledge transfer, if you've edited one wiki and then change to editing another. And then it goes the other way too. If you edit Leaguepedia, then you want to go at it for the Zelda Wiki, that knowledge will transfer. [01:14:38] Jeremy: And, and talking about the community and the editors. I, I imagine on Wikipedia, most of the people editing are volunteers. Is it the same with Leaguepedia in your experience? [01:14:55] Megan: Um, yeah, so I was contracted, uh, or I was not contracted. My LLC was contract and then I subcontracted. Um, it changed a bit over the years, um, as people left. Uh, so at first I subcontracted quite a few people. Um, and then I guess, as you can imagine, as, there was a lot more data entry that had to be done at the start. And less had to be done later on, as I, expanded the code base so that it was more a single source of truth, and less stuff had to be duplicated. And I guess it was, it probably became a lot more fun too, uh, when you didn't have to edit, enter the same thing multiple times. but, uh, a bunch of people, uh, moved on over the years. and so by the end I was only subcontracting, three people. Um, and everyone else was volunteer. [01:15:55] Jeremy: And and the people that you were subcontracting, that was for only data entry, or was that also for the actual code? [01:16:05] Megan: No, that wasn't for data entry at all. Um, and actually that was for all of my wikis, uh, because I was. Managing like all of the eSports wikis. or one of them was for Call of Duty and Halo, uh, to manage those wikis. One of them was for, uh, just the Call of Duty Wiki. and then one of them was for Leaguepedia to do staff onboarding. Oh [01:16:28] Jeremy: okay. So this is, um, this is to help people contribute to all of these wikis. That's, that's what these, these, uh, subcontractors we're focusing on. [01:16:41] Megan: Yeah, [01:16:44] Jeremy: I guess that, that makes sense when we've been talking about the complexity, uh, what's behind Leaguepedia, but there's a lot that the editors, it sounds like, have to learn as well to be able to know basically where to go and how to fill everything out and Yeah. [01:17:08] Megan: So basically, for the major leagues, in League of Legends, um, we required some onboarding before you could cover them because we wanted results entered within like, about one to four minutes. of the game centering, or sorry, of the games ending. Um, so that was like for North America, Korea, China, Europe, and for the, like for some regions, like the really minor ones, like second tier leagues in, like for example the national leagues in Europe, second tier or something, we kind of didn't really care if it was entered immediately. And so anyone who wanted to enter could just enter, uh, information. So we did want the experience to be easy enough that people could figure it out on their own. and we didn't really, uh, require onboarding for that. There was like a gradation of how much onboarding we required. But typically we tried to give training as much as we could. Um, it, it was sort of dependent on how fast people expected the results and how available someone was to provide training. so like for Latin America, there was like a lot of people who were available to provide trainings. So even like the more minor leagues, people got training there. for example, But yeah, it was, it was very collaborative. and a lot of people, a lot of people got involved, so, yeah. [01:18:50] Jeremy: And in terms of having this expectation of having the results in, in just a few minutes and things like that, is it, where are, are these people volunteers where they would volunteer for a slot and then there was just this expectation? Or how did that work? work [01:19:09] Megan: Yeah. So, um, a lot of people volunteered with us as resume experience to try and get jobs in eSports. Um, and some people just volunteered with us because they wanted to give back to the community because, we're like a really valuable resource for the community. And I mean, without volunteer contribution we wouldn't have existed. So it was like understood that we needed people's help in order to continue existing. So some people, volunteered for that reason. Some people just found it fun to help out. so there's like a range of reasons to contribute. [01:19:46] Jeremy: And, and you were talking about how there's some people who they, they really need this data in, in that short time span. you know, who, who are we talking about here? Are these like commentators? Are these journalists? I'm just curious who's, who's, looking for this in such a short time span [01:20:06] Megan: Well, fans would look for the data immediately. sometimes if we entered a wrong result, someone would like come into our discord and be like, Hey, the result of this is wrong. you know, within seconds of the wrong result going up. So we knew that people were like looking at the Wiki, like immediately. But everyone used the data, commentators at Riot. journalists. Fans, yeah. like everyone is using it. [01:20:33] Jeremy: and since it's so important to, like you're mentioning Riot or the tournament organizers, things like that. What kind of relationship do you have with them? Do they provide any kind of support or is it mostly just, it's something they just use [01:20:54] Megan: I, so there is, um, I definitely talk to people at Riot pretty regularly. and we. we got like resources from them, so, they'd give us player photos to put up, and like answers to questions and stuff. but for the most part it was just something that they'd use. [01:21:15] Jeremy: and, and so like now that unfortunately your, your contract wasn't renewed with Leaguepedia like where do you, I guess see the, the future of Leaguepedia but, but also all these other eSports wikis going, is this something that's gonna be more just community driven or, I'm, I guess I'm trying to understand, you know, how this, the gap gets filled. [01:21:47] Megan: Yeah, I'm, I'm not sure. Um, they're doing an update to Media Wiki 1.39 next year. we'll see if stuff majorly breaks during that. probably no one's gonna be able to fix it if it does. Who knows? (laughs) um, yeah, I don't know. There's another site that hosts, uh, eSports wikis called Liquipedia um, so it's possible that they'll adopt some of the smaller wikis. Um, I think it's pretty unlikely that they'll want to take Leaguepedia, um, just because it's too complicated of a wiki. but yeah, I, I, I don't know. [01:22:31] Jeremy: it kind of feels like one of these things where I guess whoever is in charge of making these decisions may not fully understand the implications or, or what it takes to, to run such a, a large wiki. yeah, I guess it'll be interesting to, to see if it ends up being like you said, one, one big mess. [01:22:58] Megan: Yeah. I got them through the 1.37 upgrade by submitting like three or four patches to cargo, during that time and discovering that the patches needed to be made prior to the upgrade happening. So, you know, I don't think that they're going to update cargo during the 1.39 upgrade and it's cargo changes that have the biggest disruption. So they're probably safe from that. and, and I don't think 1.39 has any big parser changes. I think that's later, but yeah, there'll probably still be like a bunch of CSS changes and who knows if anyone's going to fix the follow up from that. So, yeah, we'll see. [01:23:46] Jeremy: Yeah, that's, um, that's kind of interesting to know too that, these upgrades to MediaWiki and, and to extensions like cargo, that they change so significantly that they require pull requests. Is that, like, is that pretty common in terms of when you do an upgrade of a MediaWiki that there there are these individual things you need to do and it's not just update package. [01:24:18] Megan: well the cargo change was the first time that we had upgraded in like two and a half years or something. so that one in particular, I think it was expected that that one wasn't going to go so smoothly. generally updates go not that badly. I say with rising intonation, (laughs) , um, if you keep up to date with stuff, it's generally pretty okay. Cargo is probably one of the less stable ones just because it's a relatively small contributor base, and so kind of crazy things happen sometimes. Um, Semantic Media Wiki is a lot more stable. Uh, but then the downside is that if you have a feature request for SMW it's harder to get pushed through. But cargo still changes a lot. The big change with cargo, like the big problematic change with cargo was a tiny bug fix that just so happened to change every empty string value to nil in Lua, You know, no big deal or anything, whatever. [01:25:42] Jeremy: That, that's, uh, that's a good one right there. [01:25:47] Megan: I mean, I I don't know how no one noticed this for like a year and a half or something man, It was a tiny bug fix. [01:26:02] Jeremy: Mm. [01:26:03] Megan: Like it was checked in as a bug fix and it really was a bug fix. I tracked down the guy who made the patch and I was like, I can't reproduce this bug. Can I just revert it? And he was like, I can't reproduce it either. [01:26:21] Jeremy: Oh, wow. (laughs) [01:26:23] Megan: And I was like, well, that's great. And I ended up just leaving it in, but then changing them back to empty string. Um, when the extension was first released, null database values were sent to Lua as empty string due to a bug in the first place. Because null databases, null database values should just be nil in Lula. Like, come on here, . But they were sent as empty string. And so for like five years, people were writing code, assuming that you would never get a nil value for anything that you requested from the database. So you can't make a breaking change like that without putting a config value that defaults to true. [01:27:10] Jeremy: Yeah. [01:27:11] Megan: So I added a legacy, nil value, legacy Lua, nil value as empty string config value or something, and, defaulted it to true and wrote in the documentation that it was recommended that you set it to false. Or maybe I defaulted it to false. I, I don't remember what I set the default to, but I wrote in the documentation something about how you should, if possible, set this to false, but if you have a large code base, you probably need this . And then we set up Platform Ride to True, and that's the story of how I saved the shit out of our 1.37 upgrade this year. [01:27:57] Jeremy: Oh yeah, that's, um, that's a rough one. Changing, changing people's data is very scary. [01:28:05] Megan: Yeah, I mean, it was totally unintended. and I don't know how no one noticed this either. I mean, I guess the answer is that not very many people do the kind of stuff that I do working with Lua and Cargo in this much depth. but a fairly significant number of fandom Wikis do, and this would've just been an absolute disaster. And the semi ironic thing is that, I, I have a wrapper that fixes the initial cargo bug where I detect every empty string value and then cast it to nil after I get my data from cargo. So I would've been completely unaffected by this. And my wiki was the primary testing wiki for cargo on the 1.37 patch. So we wouldn't have caught this, it would've gone to live [01:28:56] Jeremy: Wow. [01:28:58] Megan: So we got extremely lucky that I found out about this ahead of time prior to us QAing and fixed this bug because it would've gone straight to live. [01:29:10] Jeremy: that's wild yeah, it's just like kind of catastrophic, right? It's like, if it happens, I feel like whoever is managing the wikis is gonna be very confused. Like, why, why is everything broken? I don't, I don't understand. [01:29:25] Megan: Right? And this is like so much broken stuff that it's like very difficult to track down what's going on. I actually had a lot of trouble figuring out what was wrong in the code base. Causing this error. And I submitted an incorrect patch at first, and then the incorrect patch got merged, and then I had to like roll back the incorrect patch. And then I got a merge conflict on the incorrect patch. And it, it was, it was bad. It took me three patches to get this right. Um, But eventually, eventually I got there. [01:30:02] Jeremy: Yeah. that's software, I guess , [01:30:06] Megan: Yeah. [01:30:07] Jeremy: the, the, the thing you were trying to avoid all these years. [01:30:10] Megan: Yeah, [01:30:13] Jeremy: you're in it now. [01:30:14] Megan: It really was, that was actually the reason that I went in, I got into the Wiki in the first place, um, and into e-sports. Uh, was that after Caltech, I wanted to like get away from STEM altogether. I was like, I've had enough of this. Caltech was too much, get me away, (laughs) . And I wanted to do like event management or tournament organization or something. And so I wanted to work in eSports. and that was like my life plan. And I wanted nothing to do with STEM and I didn't wanna work in software. I didn't wanna do math. I was a math major. I didn't wanna do math. I didn't wanna go to grad school. I wanted absolutely nothing to do with this. So that was my plan. And somehow I stumbled and ended up in software. [01:31:02] Jeremy: Well, at least you got the eSports part. [01:31:05] Megan: Yeah, so that, that worked out. And really for the first couple of years I was doing like community management and social media and stuff. Um, and I did stay away from software for about the first two years, so it lasted about two whole years. [01:31:24] Jeremy: What ended up pulling you in? [01:31:26] Megan: Um, actually, so when, when I signed back with Gamepedia, our developer just sort of disappeared and I was like, well, shit, I guess that's me now. (laughs) So we had someone else writing all of our templates for a couple years, so I was able to just like make a lot of feature requests. and I'm very good at making feature requests. If, if I ever have like, access to someone else who's writing code for me, I'm like, fantastic at just making a ton of like really minor feature requests, and just like taking off all of their time with like a billion tiny QA issues. [01:32:09] Jeremy: You you are the backlog, [01:32:12] Megan: Yeah, I really, um, I, there's another OSS project that I've been working on, um, which is a Discord bot and. We, our, our backlog just expands and expands and [01:32:26] Jeremy: Oh yeah. You know what, I, I think I did look at that. I, I looked at the issues and, usually when you look at a, the issues for an open source project, it's, it's all these people using it, right? That are like, uh, there's this thing I want, but then I looked and it was all, it was all you. So I guess that's okay cuz you're, you're in the position to do something about it. [01:32:47] Megan: The, the part that you don't know is that I'm like constantly begging other people to open tickets too. [01:32:53] Jeremy: Really? [01:32:55] Megan: Yeah. Like constantly. I'm like, guys, it can't just be me opening tickets all the time. [01:33:04] Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah. If it was, if it was someone else's project, I would be like, oh, this is, uh, . I don't know about this. But when it's your own, you know, okay. It's, it's basically like, um, it's like a roadmap I guess. [01:33:20] Megan: Yeah. Some of them have been open for, for quite a long time, but actually a couple months ago we closed one that had been open since, I think like April, 2020. [01:33:31] Jeremy: Oh, nice. [01:33:32] Megan: That was quite an event. [01:33:34] Jeremy: Yeah, it's open source, So you can do whatever you want, right. (laughs) [01:33:41] Megan: We even have a couple good first issues that are actually good first issues. [01:33:46] Jeremy: Yeah. Not, not getting any takers? [01:33:49] Megan: No, we sometimes do. Yeah. I actually, we, so some of them are like semi-important features, but I like feel really bad if I ever do the good first issues myself because like somewhere else could do them. And so like, if it's like a one line ticket, I would just, I feel so much guilt for doing it myself. [01:34:09] Jeremy: Oh, I see what you mean. [01:34:10] Megan: I'm like, Yeah. so I just like, I can't do them. But then I'm like, oh, but this is really important. But then I'm like, oh, but we might get someone else who, and I just, I never know if I should just take the plunge and do it myself, so. [01:34:22] Jeremy: yeah. No, that's, that's a good point. It's, it's like, like these opportunities, right. For people to, and it could, it could make a big difference for them. And then for you, it's like, I could do this in 10 minutes or whatever. , Uh, I, I guess it all depends on how annoyed you are by the thing not being there, [01:34:43] Megan: Right. I know because my entire background is like community and getting new people to onboard and like the potential new contributor is worth like 10 times, like, The one PR that I can make. So I should just like absolutely leave it open for the next year. [01:35:02] Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah, no, that's a, that's a good way of, of looking at it. I mean, I I think when you talk about open source or, or even wikis, that that sort of community aspect is, is so, so important, right? Because if it's just, if it's just one person, then I mean, it kind of, it lives or dies with the one person, right? It, it's, it's so different when you actually get a bunch of people involved. And I think that's something like a lot of, a lot of projects struggle with [01:35:38] Megan: Yeah. That's actually, as much as I'm like bitter about the fact that I was let go from my own project, I think the thing that I should, in a sense be the most proud of is that I grew my project to a place where that was able to happen in a sense. Like, I built this and I built it to a place where it was sustainable. Although, we'll see how sustainable it was, (laughs) . but like I'm not needed for the day to day. and that means that like I successfully built a community. [01:36:18] Jeremy: Yeah, no, you should be really proud about that because it's, it's not only like the, the code, right? Like over the years it sounds like you gradually made it easier and easier to contribute, but then also being able to get all these volunteers together and build a community on the discord and, and elsewhere. Yeah, no, I think that's, I think that's really great to be able to, to do, do something like that. [01:36:50] Megan: Thanks. [01:36:53] Jeremy: I think that's, that's a good place to, to wrap up, but is there anything else you wanted to, to mention or do you want to tell people where to check out, uh, what you're up to? [01:37:05] Megan: Yeah, I, I have a blog that's a little bit inactive for the past couple months, because I recently had surgery, but I, I've been saying for like five weeks that I will start, posting there again. So hopefully that happens soon. Uh, but it's river.me, and so you can check that out. [01:37:27] Jeremy: Cool. Well, yeah, Megan, I just wanna say thanks for, for taking the time. This was, this was really interesting. the world of wikis is like this, it's like a really big part of the internet that, um, I use wikis, but I, I've never really understood kind of what's going on in, in terms of the actual technology and the community. so so thank you for, for sharing that. [01:37:53] Megan: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me.